July 30, 2022 • 61 mins
Maya Youssef is known as the Queen of the Qanun, a virtuoso and composer of this beautiful Middle Eastern instrument described as a flat harp with 78 strings and possibly a descendant of the Egyptian harp. Maya honours Arabic classical music traditions with pathways into Western classical, Latin and jazz music. Her music responds to her vivid dreams and spiritual awakening, war and domestic abuse, love and separation. Maya's music is a prayer for peace and healing which she consciously shares with her audiences. In Maya’s words the act of playing music is the opposite of death and destruction; it is a life- and hope-affirming act and an antidote to what is happening, not only in her home of Syria, but in the world. We talk about how she became Queen of an instrument deemed only for men, music and heartbreak, surviving her personal war and finding the universal home.
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview can also be found here: https://www.canartsaveus.com
Discover Maya Youssef: https://mayayoussef.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? And my
(00:49):
guest today is Maya Youssef,also known as the Queen of the
Qanun, a virtuoso, and composerof this beautiful Middle Eastern
instrument, described as a flatharp with 78 strings, and
possibly a descendant of theEgyptian harp. Maya honors
Arabic classical musictraditions with pathways into
western classical, Latin and jazzmusic. And her art is to
(01:12):
disseminate peace through thehealing power of music. In Maya's
words, the act of playing musicis the opposite of death and
destruction. It is a life andhope affirming act, and an
antidote to what is happening,not only in her home of Syria,
but in the whole world. I hadthe very great pleasure to see
Maya perform live recentlyaccompanied with outstanding
(01:34):
musicians. And the music hassuch intricate speed it's like
a spiritual gallop. And Iremember thinking, if she
levitates, I'm not going to besurprised. Hello, Maya, and
welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me,Paula.
Maya, I'd really like to startwith your new album finding home
(01:57):
because you've described that asa time of spiritual awakening
for you. And I wondered if youcould tell us what was happening
for you and how that awakeningchanged you perhaps?
Yeah, great deal washappening in a sense that you
(02:18):
know, since I was very littlechild, I had been searching for
answers for very big questions.And, you know, I was always
looking for that sense of peaceand sense of calm and that
sense, where everything feelswarm, everything feels just
(02:42):
right. And, obviously, when thewar started, and when I was
writing, in response to what washappening in the world around
me, I was feeling like, theriver of life was just gushing
from behind me, and it was justtaking me to places it was a bit
(03:04):
overwhelming, it was veryoverwhelming. And with this
with this, this album, I feelthat the waters have calmed, I
feel that
I am in a much better place, youknow, in my home world, in my
family, and where I am as anartist, and and yeah, I just
(03:30):
basically found my spiritualmentor. And that is sort of my
secret of, of calling it FindingHome because,
you know, I just, I believe thatwe are souls and you find home
and that essence of you being asoul and a body. So it's really
(03:56):
about the sinking into thisbeautiful realization and the
exploration of it. I'm just noteven scratching the surface. But
that was, that was basically myspiritual process behind the
making of Finding Home.
Yeah, and it sounds like quite acurious experience, perhaps, in
(04:22):
terms of what it is you'refinding in yourself and, and,
and did you even need courageperhaps to be open to that, that
experience and to accept it?
Yeah, you always need courage,because change is always scary.
And, you know, you just there'salways a death of the older
(04:44):
self, you know, of the smallerself of of the things that no
longer serve you to embrace yourgreater self. And that is never
comfortable. So, so yes, but I'min it. it's completely worth it.
And it sounds like the the albumwas equally perhaps a healing
(05:08):
process for you as well as, aswell as a healing that you, that
you wish to disseminate.
Absolutely. And then it was Iwas just reflecting about
because I was right, I waswriting it over a period of
years, but then I was reallygoing through an intense period
of writing. And during this timeof the year, last year, and all
(05:32):
the way to until August, when werecorded it. And, you know, when
I was writing, I don't sleep, Ilose so much weight. I have,
like, very interesting, veryvisual dreams. And I feel so
(05:53):
much light so much in intake iscoming, you know, there's so
much like filtering through mybeing. And that is that is
healing. I mean, in a way I seemyself as a conduit as a
messenger for whatever comesthrough me, I don't see myself
(06:14):
Oh, I created all of this. I'mjust simply seeing myself as a
humble messenger, who just needsto listen. And you know, just
put it out in the world. Andobviously, that light will and
that beautiful healing musicwill heal me first and then so I
(06:35):
can put it out in the world. Butyeah, that's how I see it.
And it sounds like a reallybeautiful but really powerful
personal process, you know,losing weight, you know, that
physical impact. You know,that's, that's a lot, isn't it,
for you to trust. It's a bigprocess to trust.
(06:58):
Yeah, absolutely. And then Isort of know that, okay, this is
happening, and I'm just, just,you just need to surrender to
it. And yeah, to embrace it,because it's so profoundly
beautiful. So have
you, you know, even from a childalways experienced vivid dreams
(07:23):
and have you come to a place nowwhere again, you accept those
dreams and almost start to readthem like a book and and learn
from them?
Yeah, I always had dreams, Ialways had very vivid dreams I
used to. I used to have veryvivid dreams and wake up first
thing in the morning and meetdraw pictures of them when I was
(07:43):
very little. Yeah. So I'm veryclosely connected to the world
of imagination. Since since Iwas a child, I loved it. I loved
folktales and fairy tales fromall over the world. And, you
know, and just to be in touchwith it through nature through
(08:05):
any way really. Yeah, I alwaysfind that like, sort of awakens,
my, my inner child and ticklesit in a very lovely way.
Yeah, and it's reallyinteresting when people refer to
the inner child and, and I knowthat, you know, you've also
(08:27):
referred to recapturing the optimism of the child. And
you were you were talking aboutone of your pieces of music in
particular. And it felt like youwere valuing that childlike
quality of openness, optimism,curiosity, if you like, and I
(08:53):
wondered if you could share withthe listeners how you
interpreted that in, in, in oneof the pieces of your music?
Yeah, so you're particularlytalking about Walk with Me?
Yeah. That piece came about inthat, so I, I pray and meditate
(09:13):
before I compose, and I do thesame thing before I go on stage.
And I pray for the music tobring peace and, or healing in
any way or form. And so in thepandemic there was lockdown
everywhere. And, and,obviously, I learned that just
(09:40):
to go within as part of myspiritual process, you know,
regularly every day, and when,when I went to prayer I saw
like all humanity workingtogether towards a better, more
compassionate future foreveryone on the earth. And it
was such a beautiful, such acomforting image. And I, and
(10:06):
then this piece of musicbasically unfolded. And I
originally wanted to have alittle girl singing the main
melody, which I will do it oneday. But yeah, yeah, it
just because to be honest withyou, um, in my heart of hearts,
(10:28):
I'm very much, you know, verysilly and very goofy and I
have a lot of optimism and manypeople are looking at me
thinking, Okay, you're crazy.You're not practical enough. And
I go like, fine. That's me. Youknow? So yeah, that was the
(10:51):
process behind that. So it'sjust yeah... it's always
lovely to hear like, I had afriend who was going through a
rough time. And she was sayingthat she uses the space as a
shield. So, I love that. Iabsolutely love it.
That's an interesting choice ofword isn't a shield. So
(11:15):
interesting. I was fascinated bywhat she was saying.
So it's offered her a form ofcomfort or protection in terms
of a shield.
Yeah, yeah, that's what she meant, which meant so
much to me.
Yeah, absolutely. And shows theeffects the desired effects of
(11:35):
of your, your music, a form ofhealing and protection and
comfort. And I wondered in termsof embracing optimism, and it's
so lovely that you, youembrace and live your, your own
inner child, how you held on tothat, when optimism must have
(11:57):
been so deeply challenged by thewar and, and witnessing
destruction in your home ofSyria?
Oh, gosh. Yeah, I just, I thinkI was surrounded by a lot of
grace. At that time, you know,because it was, it was a really
(12:22):
difficult time, because,obviously, I was hearing the
news of, you know, friends andfamily being killed, being
kidnapped, places I love beingdestroyed, you know, the thought
that I will never see my parentsagain. And obviously, also the
bigger pain that oh my gosh,this is happening to my
(12:44):
homeland. And it's so deeplypainful. It's also the deep pain
that my you know, the brothersand the sisters are fighting
each other. You know, there is, there is a schism in the
integral structure of societywhich really, really, really,
(13:07):
really pained me at the deepestlevel. And at the same time, I
was going through domestic abuseat the same time, so it was,
mad because it was like, I have,I'm experiencing a war back
home. Even though I'm in London,you know, I'm not experiencing
actual bombs. But, there isa war in my personal home, while
(13:30):
I was trying to look after achild and make a living and, you
know, figure life out. And, and,yeah, I just, I think it just,
again, it started with a prayer,you know, just, and I remember,
there was a voice in my headsaying, you either do something,
(13:50):
or you perish. And I remember,you know, my son at the time,
the two things that kept megoing were my son, and my music.
I remember my son used to try topractice you know, I forced myself
to practice because I had a concert and, and he was tiny.
(14:12):
He was like, two and a half,three. And he used to bow to me
after every single piece sayingthank you, mummy, and,
and he said, I just looked atthis child and think, how do you
know, just how can you know, youknow, how can you do this? So
(14:34):
you know, and yeah, so I wassurrounded by a lot of Earth
Angels, a lot of grace at thetime that somehow kept me going
through all of this madness.And, yeah, I couldn't have done
it without that, basically.
Yeah, I mean, you're describingsuch deep anxiety and and
(15:00):
struggle, you know, when youhave the anxiety of your, your
home your family in Syria in awar context and, and as you
say, directly in your, your homesetting, that I wondered whether
prayer and faith not only givesyou resilience and courage, but
(15:21):
is it also when you talk offinding home, is it, is it a
universal home?
Yeah, very much so very much.So. Yeah. Because, you know,
with, with my music, eventhough it is rooted in my
(15:43):
personal experience, I alwayswanted it to move to the
universal so like, even Syriandreams, I wanted it to be a
prayer for peace, not innorthern Syria, but the whole
world. But with Finding Home,they're universal, you know,
moving from the local to theuniversal, despite the local
(16:04):
being, which is Syria, you know,being in my heart of hearts,
and, you know, it will always bemy home, because that's, that's
my roots. But if you asked menow where is home, I would say it's
a state, you know, it's a stateof, of perfect peace, you know,
where, and you can experiencethat state in so many different
(16:26):
ways, you can just experienceit, well, you know, you're in
nature, or while you are lookingat somebody's face, and they're
smiling at you, or you're havingtea, or, you know, just while
you're meditating it just anyany, you know, in any way that
(16:46):
you experienced that peace. Andthat is universal. That's what
we all look for really. Youknow, no matter how that
looks like for us.
Yeah. So it's interesting, whenyou think about home as a state,
(17:10):
something that can always bewith you and not vulnerable to
place. It gives you an addedlayer of security, perhaps and
would you say that tied in withfinding the courage to, you
know, leave a difficultrelationship one of domestic
(17:31):
abuse? Is it a form ofresilience and, and security? Is
it, is it a pathway that helpsyou see your way through?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean,without that courage you need,
you need a lot of, you know,there's so much, you know, talk
(17:52):
about power and how power lookslike, and it's often, you know,
connected to physical force oraggression. And, but power is
you have the power to choosepeace, you know, over drama or
over madness, that, that takes alot of courage that takes a lot
(18:15):
of strength. That takes a deepcommitment. I'm not saying I'm
perfectly there. No, I'm a workin progress. You know, I have so
much to learn and so much toimprove. I'm very human. And,
but I made the commitment to, tobasically keep the compass of my
(18:37):
life, you know, in everydecision I make in everything I
do, does it lead me towards thathome, spiritual home? Does it
take me away from it? If itleads me to it? I'm all in. If
it takes me away from it. I willsay no, even though if it looks
wonderful. So, yeah, it's, it'sall connected. Everything's
(19:00):
connected to everything,basically, to that one choice,
basically. And to what is yourcompass? And yeah,
yes, it's very interesting,because I remember when you
introduced Bombs Turn intoRoses from your album, Syrian
Dreams, and I'll let you shareand describe the dream you had
(19:25):
for the for the listeners, itseems to be very much about
transformation and almost byaccepting home as a state, it
almost allows you to re-visualize rewrite, or recreate
the home that you want to see.
(19:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know,in a way, I mean, every artist
has their own, every person inthe world they has their own,
you know, mission and impactwhich is in the world that
is very personal. But to me,particularly with this piece, I
(20:07):
felt that I was filteringsomething very difficult,
something very heavy
and transmuting it to somethingsofter. And I had this dream
when I was going through thisdifficult period of
(20:28):
the two wars. And in the dream Iwas sitting under, or standing
under a sky full of bombs. Andit was a place completely
covered with ruins. And I waslooking up and the sky was
completely full of bombs fallingdown slowly. And just before
(20:53):
they hit me, they turned towhite roses. So I wake up
like three in the morning,crying, and I hold the qanun
and the main theme comes out.I'm just writing like, I'm half
awake, you know. And when Iwondered about the meaning of
the white petals, because that'sthat's the point where I felt so
(21:17):
much relief. I was, yeah, therealization came later when I
was invited to a gathering and Iwas invited to imagine white
petals of peace falling to theearth.
And I was like, Ah, here it is.That's what it means. And, yeah,
(21:39):
I mean, I feel it. I feel itwhen I when I play this piece.
It's really, it's reallystrange. I just feel the
filtering in my own body. And Ioften cry, you know, on stage,
because it's such an intenseprocess. But yeah, and
(22:00):
again, yeah, so I'm gratefulthat the piece despite the
heaviness of it, you know, justbrings in that peace. So yeah,
yeah. It's really strong andpowerful imagery or spiritual
messaging, that that you'reliterally feeling physically and
(22:25):
interpreting musically, itseems.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's onefor me. All of this. It's not,
it's not separate. Everything isa one continuum.
And in the same way that youhave expressed finding home as a
(22:47):
state, as a universal home, ifyou like, you also composed the
Universal Mother on the samealbum, and I felt it was a
beautiful piece in that on onehand, there was deep melancholy,
but it also felt very strong andvery connected somehow. And I
(23:09):
wondered if you could tell usabout that particular piece of
music and the dynamic of thesituation you were in, in terms
of your place and your mother'splace at the time?
Yeah, so I am, I live in the UK,in London, and my mum and dad,
(23:31):
they live in Damascus in Syria,they chose not to leave. And,
obviously, because I am a mum, Icouldn't take my son there,
because it felt risky. So Ihaven't seen them for five or
(23:52):
six years, and then before that,I haven't seen them for another
five or six years. So it's anawful long time, awfully long
time to spend without yourparents and your mother. And so
when I was going through theprocess of writing, and I was
(24:15):
just hit by this huge wave ofnostalgia and I felt
something really swelling in me.And I was really missing my
mother. And when I sat at myqanun, I wrote like the core
melody, and again, there werethere were tears flowing. And in
(24:38):
that moment, I had a whisperthat "You're always in my
embrace." And I believe that wasthe Universal Mother, you know,
divine mother or whatever youwant to call it. That was
telling you that we're always inher embrace, and every single
moment even though I can't, Ican't reach my human mother, I'm
(24:59):
always being mothered by themother of everything. And yeah,
so in that piece, there is a lotof longing and nostalgia. It's
like a strong call to themother. To come to me,
basically. So yeah, there iscomfort in it there is pain in it.
(25:20):
Yeah. And everything in between.
Yeah, but but it really did feellike a almost, like a physical
connection. That was what was solovely about it. The melancholy
was very deep. But there was areal strength in it. And it felt
like, it felt like the physicalconnection that you that you
currently can't have. That's so
(25:41):
lovely, thank you.
So if you were to think of homein terms of Syria, obviously, in
relation to family, where wouldyou be happiest playing and who
to?
Oh, gosh, will naturally Damascus and because that's
(26:04):
where I grew up. And that'swhere I studied. And
it's really funny, I would say,you know, just I would say,
because when I was very littleI, my household because my, my,
my dad was a scriptwriter, andwell, writer a greater term,
(26:29):
and my mother was a translator,and we had guests from, you
know,
you know, actors, philosophers,writers, sculptors, painters,
everything in between. And theyused to ask me to play for them,
you know. And I used to get soannoyed. I'd actually love to go back
(26:54):
to the to that, you know, it's,it was so intimate and so
lovely. There was even one... Yeah. So I would go
back to that. You know, thatwould be really nice to
recreate.
Yeah, I mean, what anamazingly culturally rich
household. I mean, that would,for most of us, be a dream come
(27:15):
true. Isn't it funny that as achild, you could have felt
annoyed? Because they were comingall the time. No. But what's
also lovely is as a child, youwere quite prepared to respond
(27:39):
positively to annoyance. And whatI'm referring to is when you
were only nine years old,sitting in the back of a taxi
cab, and I'll let you explainthe rest of the story.
Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah,basically, you know, because I
was, singing, dancing,tapping all the time. So my
parents put me in a MusicInstitute and we had like a
(28:06):
solfeggio, a music theoryclass. So my mother took me
there. It was like a very hotsummer's day in Damascus. And
the taxi driver turned on theradio on. And there came the
sound of the qanun. And it justfelt, I just felt so much love.
And I was like, What is thisinstrument? I want to play it. And
(28:30):
he laughed at me. He said, Youare a girl. This instrument is
for men. Forget about it. And Itold him, I will, you will see.
My mother shrugged hershoulders. Basically, she kissed
me goodbye. She was reading herbook outside the, you know, the
classroom, I walk in. And afterlike about 10 minutes, the head
(28:55):
of the institute walks in andannounces the opening of a qanun
class. And I was like, Oh mygosh, okay, so I just ran
straight after the class and Isuppose the first to sign up to
the astonishment of my mother.But obviously at the same time,
you know, at the beginning atthat time, I was I was doing
(29:17):
violin, you know, I was like,I really didn't love it. You
know, I was just doing it justbecause my parents wanted me to
do it at that stage, you know,seeing seeing my face you know,
my determination my my parentsreturned that violin and yeah,
in two days, I had a huge secondhand qanun five times my size
(29:42):
waiting for me on the coffeetable. So that's how this
started.
It's an incredible strike ofdestiny don't you
think? You know moments before aclass is announced you have that
experience in a taxi but an experience that was potentially
going to shut you down. It was avery prejudiced experience. You
(30:05):
know, this is a male onlyinstrument. What what an
incredible juxtaposition of twostrikes of destiny?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you only need to tell me that you
can't do something. And then I golike, right, let's get busy and
get it done. So so
that was the purpose of the taxidriver. He was a, he was a gift
(30:25):
he was helping. Yeah, that'sreally interesting. So at the
same time, I wondered whetherthere was any intimidation at
such a young age with learningthe instrument, because it's
also described as possibly themost difficult instrument in the
world to learn. And were thereany key players that spurred you
(30:48):
on that gave you courage andinfluenced you to overcome any
any fears you may have had?
Yes, I mean, I'm, I'm in, youneed to understand that Syria is
a, an, it's a patriarchalsociety. And it's, the key
figure in the house that makedecisions is, is really the
(31:12):
father. So if your fatheropposes, you know, you learning
music, or you acting or youdancing or whatever, then that's
it. That's the end of, of it,basically, for you. So I was
really leaning on support of family really, you know, because
(31:33):
I was just being because my mumand dad were the most incredibly
supportive, supportive parentsthat anybody could hope for. It
really, wherever was happeningoutside that bubble, didn't
matter. I did feel uncomfortablein many stages of my life. You
(31:57):
know, particularly when Istarted performing on stage and,
you know, you would get faced bylooks of dismay. So, but, um, I
would just look at my mum anddad who were like, you know,
incredibly proud of me. And Iwas like, well, doesn't matter,
you know. So, in the earlystages, it was just really, my,
(32:22):
my, my parents had just got megoing. And later on, I just, I
encountered teachers that reallysupported me in, in finding my,
you know, sonic identity. So,yeah.
Yeah, so as, as a female, youknow, as a child as an adult,
(32:46):
playing what's perceived as atraditionally male instrument,
and, and this comes up elsewherein orchestras, you know, there's
prejudices where women andcertain instruments are
concerned, which has even led tovery interesting, blind
auditioning to remove some ofthose, you know, barriers of
(33:06):
prejudice. So, how, how far didthat go in terms of potentially
potentially stopping you ordefeating you in terms of having
to confront that?
(33:29):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's,like, there were some sometimes,
like, some, like, a long timeago, when I was in the Institute of
music, somebody wrote a reallyhorrible review of one of, you
know, just sort of attacking mefor being a woman, you know, so
(33:53):
it was like an attack in thepublic, you know, so I was like,
Oh, my gosh, I want to, youknow, hide under a pillow for
the rest of my life. And he wasvery famous, you know, so, so,
yeah, I, and obviously, youknow, sometimes you would go to,
(34:14):
like the conservatoiresensemble, where you you need to
participate. It's part of yourlearning. And part of that
you're supposed to improvise,you need to do something called
the Taksim improvisations. Andthat taksim is like the pinnacle
of artistic expression. If youdon't know how to do a taksim,
(34:35):
then you're not you're not anartist, you're not, a player, you
know, doesn't deserve to becalled a musician. So I would
get like slightly hinted at saying, Yeah, Shall I do it for
you I can do the taksim for youby other gentleman. And I'll go
like, I can do it myself. Thankyou. So I'm you know, taxi
(34:55):
drivers, you know, grinning atyou saying, Oh, you're an
artist. You don't care. All ofthese things of the sort, you
know, in the daily life thatmake you go. And when I was, you
know, halfway in my studies, Ireally wanted to quit music
altogether, I just really hit a,you know, a proper roadblock.
(35:20):
But again, my parents keptsaying, just keep going, keep
going. And yeah, so that was myexperience with that.
You do have incredible courage,self possession, I know that we
don't necessarily feelcourageous at the time, but when
(35:40):
you consider wading throughthose kinds of prejudices, when
you consider that you have hadto accept such long distance
from family due to war, due toCovid, when you have had to face
fear in your own home, you know,leaving a domestic abuse
situation, you have outstandingself possession and resilience,
(36:05):
do you recognize that inyourself as as a form of
courage?
You you're very kind, I'm goingto be honest with you, I just I
feel that I had no choice but tokeep going, really, you know, I
(36:26):
had no choice. And again, I had,even though things were
incredibly difficult, I hadthese beautiful moments of
grace. Where I, you know, thatkept me going. So, yeah, that's
(36:46):
the way how I see it, you know,I just,
I, my, my, one of my bestfriends, she says, Oh, sometimes
I look at your life. And it's abit of like an Indian Bollywood
film.
And I laugh, you know, you know,I just laugh, but the way I
(37:08):
see it is that I had no choicebut to keep going. I had no
choice, you know, I just had to. And even though the
world was, you know, there areso many there was, so the
easiest, perhaps thing was tojust give up, but I had to move
on for my, for my son, I hadto move on. There was always
(37:32):
something that, you know, in themoment when things go really
dark. There's like this flash ofgrace that gives you, propose you
to the next 100 miles orwhatever. And, you know, things
go dark again, and again, youknow, through what I call Earth
Angels or some event that justgives you another push of
(37:53):
strength to keep you going?Yeah, that's how I see it. I
just have to.
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like, youknow, courage as sheer
necessity. And, and I'm alsoimagining that, this really
explains why you must be such agood teacher. So for example,
(38:14):
when you were talking about, youknow, really harsh experiences
of criticism, I think criticscan behave very irresponsibly,
as, instead of supporting aprocess or an education, and
forget, that people are entitledto develop are entitled to, to
(38:38):
be vulnerable and and should becommended for their
vulnerability, whilst they aretrying to improve something or
in your case, at that time, youwere, you know, you were
developing your music, yourmusicianship? Is this all part
of informing how you choose toteach because I know that you
(39:01):
are also trying to activelydemystify how Arabic music is
understood.
Yeah, yeah, very much. So. Imean, I think yeah, I mean, it's
very interesting that you'rebringing in vulnerability and you
know, obviously I'm and it'sinteresting because my mum would
(39:26):
always say that it's really goodthat I am building a career here
because I can show that side ofmyself and, and let me tell you,
I had huge vulnerabilityhangovers, you know, you know,
when I put something sosensitive and fragile in the
world, I almost get sick for like, a couple of days and, and it just
(39:46):
like, I don't want to doanything I just can't handle you
know, it just I can't get overthe fact that I put myself out
there in such an open way. Butit is, the more I see the
positive and the human and thehealing impact of that,
the more I embrace it, you know,it's a process. It's not, it's
not, it's an it's really notcomfortable, you know, but when
(40:10):
it comes to teaching, I thinkthere is, what really makes me
go nuts is that there's so muchsnobbism, in teaching Arabic
music, there's so many basicallyunspoken rules, that makes it
almost impossible for people tolearn. And, like, versus the
(40:34):
Maqam system, the, you know,the, the musical theory, the
mood system, and, which isbasically the rule, core
material from which claymaterial from which you shape,
you know, music. So, that, yeah,it's, you know, the, the
(40:55):
theoreticians have agreed todisagree, and it's, the theory
is really far from practice,really far from how music is
actually played, you know, onthe ground. So, basically, I
have felt the urge to createthe systems, like for instance I teach
(41:17):
Maqam, I created a system toteach Maqam with Lego pieces.
So you have like a visualrepresentative. And so I created
the systems that I wish I had,when I was, you know, studying
that are very hands on, thathelp anybody to learn Arabic
music, qanun, same, same thing. Soyou know, learning is
(41:41):
that you don't, there are nosystems, and you have to go to a
teacher to teach and thenthere's a process of like
copying, there's a lot of trialand error. And most people
can't afford that and don't wantto spend this much time that you
know, the tempo of life is sofast in the UK, Europe, and the
(42:03):
US, people don't have time to youknow, spend a year with a
mentor. It's not it's, it's notrealistic. So, you know, just
creating the system for anybodywho love Arabic music, who
anybody who wants to learn. Andno matter where we are, their
(42:23):
age, no matter if they know howto read music, no matter if they
play the instrument in theirlife or not. It's very
accessible, that, you know, thetheory theoretical side is there
for those who want to indulge inthat. But you know, it's to
start with it's very immediate,super accessible. Because yeah,
I can't stand the fact thatsomebody comes to me saying, Oh,
(42:46):
I love I love, I'd love to knowhow to do taqim, like me, you
know, when I was at and, and Ihave no clue because I have no
idea how I'm going to start, youknow, learning maqam, you know,
because maqam is sort of thealphabet from which you need to,
you know, learn and to createwords and sentences and musical
(43:06):
stories. So yeah, I have I havea lot of passion around, you
know, just make it making itmore accessible to anybody who
will just love it. The onlyprerequisite that you need this.
Do you love it? Yes. Okay, good.That's perfect. So yeah,
yeah. So you're, you'reallowing, you're allowing
(43:28):
openness, you're allowingcuriosity, aren't you? It's a
healthy form of, of discovery,exploration. And so how does
this also translate in terms ofthe really lovely and
significant work you do withrefugee communities? Because I
understand that's a form ofteaching in terms of, of
exploring home, and I wonderedif you could tell us about that.
(43:53):
Yeah,
I mean, that started when I, Iwouldn't call it a form of
teaching, it just, I would callit like an offering and
experience. You know, I startedworking with a therapeutic
theatre company called oilycoat, who do incredible work
with children with autism and,and multiple challenges and
(44:15):
disabilities. And I had thepleasure to curate the music for
one of their shows, with a musicdirector, Max Reinhardt and then
tour across the UK in venues andschools. And I've seen so many,
you know, does the show waslike, what, 20 minutes, but I've
seen so many magical moments,you know, that really inspired
(44:38):
me to, to do something forrefugee children's. And that's
when I created the seven gatesin Damascus, with the music
director of OD cart, which isbasically a musical storytelling
offering. Again, it's a one offthing that you experienced that
will hopefully lead you to amore peaceful place. But also,
(45:02):
not always, I can run thatbecause it's it requires, you
know, carrying big props. So,you know, with with refugee
communities as part of theFinding Home Tour, because I
believe as within so without,you know, you need to know that
finding home is my innerprocess. But in the outside, I
(45:22):
needed to sort of create anexperience where somebody even
can experience an inkling ofhome, you know, which is by, you
know, offering them, offeringrefugee communities, tickets to
concerts, getting all venues onboard without, you know, having
school workshops as part of thetour where we target schools
(45:45):
with high population ofrefugees, and then again, going
to deliver refugee communityworkshops, as well as the seven
gates of Damascus. So yeah, justbasically reaching them in, in
any and every way I can. So, youknow, I'm always fascinated by
how powerful the, the sound ofthe qanun is, I'm always, you
(46:10):
know, discovering that, and I'm,it's always quite a humbling
experience to witness that.Because, you know, the sound of
the qanun, in so many ways cantransport somebody to a place to
an emotion. And I don't know howmany times I heard that, the
(46:32):
sound of the qanun. And that,that somebody would say, oh, it
took me back to the time when Iwas spending with my
grandmother. And playing in herbackyard, it took me back to the
smell of the cooking of mymother, it took me back to a
place that I really love, ittook me back to a memory that I
(46:52):
really love. It's, I always hearthat, you know, by, you know,
refugee communities and, and weoften share, you know, laughter
and tears, sometimes acombination of both, you know,
and so, I always find thatextremely humbling. And, because
(47:15):
I am very aware of that I wantedall venues to, to basically
reserve a number of tickets forrefugee communities, because at
the end of the day, you know,the, the venues that I am
playing are classical venues.And to somebody who, who is
(47:39):
here, as a refugee, they mightseem cold and aloof, and not
accessible. And it's veryimportant for me to break the
ice to bring them in. And at thesame, so basically, every single
venue, reserved a number oftickets for refugee communities
(47:59):
to come. At the same time I wentto then I went to schools, where
the high population of refugeesdelivered workshops, sometimes I
would work with the children,and then I would invite them to
come and perform with me onstage. And, and also, you know,
delivering refugee communityworkshops. So it's basically
(48:20):
it's all about, you know, seeingwhat's possible, because, you
know, just to be very, very, youknow, realistic and just just to
offer to do any offering I can,as much as I can really just to
help, you know, reach thosecommunities, because it's so
(48:42):
important for me.
Yeah, it's a really lovelyextension of your work and your
healing work. And in terms ofyou know, we've been talking
about a universal home, amusical, a musical home,
different worlds, if you like,you know, that have a common
(49:03):
universality. I'm alsointerested in that process when
you're actually recording andand you know, you're working
with a producer, you you've alsoworked with Opera North, for
example, and I wondered if youcould maybe tell us about those
relationships. And I wasn't sureif whether the Opera North
(49:24):
relationship came out of anexisting operatic tradition that
you may have already had inSyria, for example.
Right. Yeah, I'm in. So I had anexisting relationship with with
Opera North, in a sense thatthey, I performed there as part
(49:46):
of my Syrian Dreams launch tourin 2018. And then, they have
commissioned me to write to beone of the writers as part of
the project walking home, whichis basically is when sonic
journeys that people can listento when walking during lockdown,
(50:06):
and silver lining, which is thelongest track on the finding of
album is is commissioned bythem. And it's it's not, you
know, the there's no immediateconnection or with a operatic
line of work in Syria, but thereis a definite connection in
(50:28):
terms of, you know, exploring,how does classical music of
other traditions look like?Because I don't you know, if for
those who are very interestedin, you know, categorization, I
don't see my music as well,music, per se, I see as Arabic
chamber music, I see it asclassical music, you know, it's
(50:50):
a classical music from adifferent world. And obviously,
it contains so many differentelements. But if I am to put a
label on it, that's why I wouldput personally. So it's just
that common curiosity of howdoes that look like, you know,
how does that classicaltradition of, of players and
(51:10):
composers who are rooted in a inan ancient tradition that goes
back 1000s of years, who aretrying to explore how does that
music, you know, look like in acontemporary context, that
curiosity was was definitely avery strong connection between
us and which is why I went toopera north again. And I was
like, Well, I'd love to write,I'm hearing that because the way
(51:38):
I write is that I write and thenI start to hear layers of sound.
And I was like, Okay, I'mhearing string quartet for a
couple of the tracks, would yoube able to support me in
providing a string quartet fromyour orchestra? That will be
incredible. And amazingly, theydid say, yes. So. So three
tracks are, are basically four,they include string quartet. So
(52:05):
that, and yeah, so that was from the side of
Opera North and then from theBritish Museum, I also went to
them saying, I'd love tocollaborate, because I went to
organizations that I felt that Ihad a lovely connection with, I
felt sort of whom were with.Yeah. And, and then we're like,
(52:26):
okay, so we have this exhibitioncalled Reflections. It's an
exhibition about artists from,you know, the Middle East
exploring conflict identity.Would you like to attend? And
would you like to see if youwould be called to compose
pieces of music inspired by thework of surprise, and I was
(52:48):
like, Absolutely, there will bean adventure. I've never done
that. Anything like that before?So I, yeah, so I went to the
exhibition during lockdown. And,and I, you know, I was the
curious thing was sat on theside, and I was exploring the
works of art, and I saw what wascalling to me. And I went home
and started writing. So this,this, you know, sense of
(53:11):
collaboration in this album isvery, very, very strong,
because, you know, even evenwalk with me was a was a
commissioned by BBC Radio threeas well. So, and then also, I
knew that I wanted the, the,because I'm not experienced as a
producer. And so I worked withLeo Abraham's, who is
(53:34):
incredible. He's such a prolificproducer who worked with every
shade of music possible that youcan imagine, you know. And most
importantly, he's, he's, he'svery, very warm and very kind
hearted, and so, and deeplylistens to my vision. So I co-
produced the album with him. Soyeah, the whole album,
(53:59):
basically, there's so much andan insane amount of energy and
love, and that and attentionthat went into every detail of
the album, by all thecollaborators, you know, and
also to add, this is anindependent record. So when I
was writing my Arts Councilapplication, I was like, you
know, many people agreed to beput down as partners, you know,
(54:23):
all of the tour dates, you know,all of the tour venues, they
were like, Yeah, you have oursupport. So there was a lot of
generosity, you know, when itcame to making this album.
So yeah, and I'm so grateful forit. And yeah, and I hope that
I'll be able to pay it back.
Yeah. And a lovely comment,actually, that Dominic Grey at
(54:44):
Opera North made was how theirmusicians learn so much more
about the potential of their owninstruments by working with you
and I wondered if that's almosta common thread with all of your
musical collaborations?
I mean, that was very sweet ofhim to say that because, you
(55:05):
know, I'm an I always seeeverything as an exploration,
it's everything is a process oflearning, I'm always learning, I
will always be learning. It wasso amazing to work out was I'm
not gonna lie, I was a bitscared of the experience
because, you know, with, withother musicians I had, I had
(55:30):
about a month, you know, ofsitting with them bringing the
music to them fine tuning andnothing was written, you know,
with Opera North I had one day.So I had to get the score to a
point of perfection working withagain, and another collaborator
was that amazing orchestratorKalina Del Amare, you know, to get
the score to a point of absoluteperfection. So we had four hours
(55:54):
to rehearse for hours to record,and that was it, you know. So
there was a different processfor every for every single
piece, and it was very importantfor me to, you know, for, yeah,
just to capture the music as, asaccurately as honestly as I can,
(56:15):
before I can go there, and thenhave the intimate experience of
recording with him. And theywere absolutely phenomenal. And
yeah, so I that really opened somany doors in my head, you know,
this experience. So I would sayI'm the one who learned so much
so yeah.
Yeah, it's lovely because,again, it was it was Dominic
(56:35):
Grey of Opera North that mentionedthat. The process is the same as
creating a dialogue, but thatyou're able to bring old and new
together, you know, that you canwork with classical traditional
music, but you're open tocontemporary ideas. And would
you say that, that's a fairdescription, and that it's also,
(56:58):
therefore a dialogue that helpsyou reach new and wider and
different audiences as a result?
Yeah, I'm in for on a, on a, youknow, in a very logical, very
pragmatic way of thinking, Yes,that's accurate. But I must add
that whenever I write the music,I don't think oh, I'm gonna make
(57:18):
this album, a classical album.I'm just simply sitting and just
listening to whatever layersthat are needed that to convey
the emotional fingerprint of theemotional charge of the piece.
You know, I'm not thinking, youknow, so that's why it's, I
always find it very fascinatinghow people hear other, you know,
(57:42):
musical traditions and in mymusical like, Oh, okay. You
know, when when somebody firsttold me that, I hear Philip
Glass and this and this music orI hear, you know, a bit of
ambience, music and you music.So, like, fascinating. So, yes,
in a, in the logical way, youknow, of putting, you know, it's
(58:06):
yes, it is the case, but in aemotional spiritual sense. It's,
I'm just basically listening tothe music and waiting for her to
show me where I'm gonna go next.Regardless of, you know, the
box, it's in.
Yeah, yeah. And so, Maya,unfortunately, as time always
(58:27):
races by and say that I don'tsteal you for too long, I should
probably think about the finalquestion of this episode. Where
we consider the question Can art save us, which isn't a simple,
yes or no answer. But I wasinterested in a quote from you,
(58:49):
which, in which you said, "I seemyself as a tree. I'm rooted in
Syria, but my branches can goanywhere." And I wondered if that
may relate in some way as to howyou might answer the series
question. Can art save us?
(59:09):
Yeah, I would say yes. Andabsolutely, yes, art saved my
life, you know, I would not behere without, you know, music
and without, again, my son. Soit did save my life. And even
though it cannot feed thehungry, and it cannot save the
(59:32):
wounded and, you know, it justit has a different purpose,
which is, you know, going to theheart of the collective
experience of humankind and, andtransmitting it or translating
it into something that has aheart resonance, something that
(59:55):
you can feel in your heart. It'snot it's not logical. It's not a
thought process. Something thatyou can feel a note in your
heart, which is, I think it'sthe most honest and most direct
way of expression and relatingto others. Like talking to
somebody from your heart withoutwithout words. And I believe
(01:00:19):
that, you know, just, it's sucha big question. But again, I'm
gonna answer it, you know, inthe way I see it, is that, you
know, some pieces of art, you'reliterally transmuting, something
heavy, to something softer, somepieces of art few just allowing
yourself to, to daydream andmeander in, in the imagination
(01:00:42):
world. Everything has its place,everything has has a meaning.
And, you know, again, if you donot, if I was not rooted in, in
that tradition, or within theSyrian tradition that goes back
1000s of years, I would not havethe musical language I would not
(01:01:04):
be my branches would not be ableto be able to roam so freely and
won't be able to explore themany you know, realms of sound
that are possible. So so yes,absolutely. Art can save us.
Maya, thank you so much forbeing so generous with your time
(01:01:26):
and for being so brave, in termsof how openly you've spoken
today. And, and of course, ahuge thank you for being someone
that is spreading so muchhealing in the world. Thank you
so much for your time.
Thank you so much. Thank you somuch for less such a pleasure
talking to you.
You too.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? And my
(00:49):
guest today is Maya Youssef,also known as the Queen of the
Qanun, a virtuoso, and composerof this beautiful Middle Eastern
instrument, described as a flatharp with 78 strings, and
possibly a descendant of theEgyptian harp. Maya honors
Arabic classical musictraditions with pathways into
western classical, Latin and jazzmusic. And her art is to
(01:12):
disseminate peace through thehealing power of music. In Maya's
words, the act of playing musicis the opposite of death and
destruction. It is a life andhope affirming act, and an
antidote to what is happening,not only in her home of Syria,
but in the whole world. I hadthe very great pleasure to see
Maya perform live recentlyaccompanied with outstanding
(01:34):
musicians. And the music hassuch intricate speed it's like
a spiritual gallop. And Iremember thinking, if she
levitates, I'm not going to besurprised. Hello, Maya, and
welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me,Paula.
Maya, I'd really like to startwith your new album finding home
(01:57):
because you've described that asa time of spiritual awakening
for you. And I wondered if youcould tell us what was happening
for you and how that awakeningchanged you perhaps?
Yeah, great deal washappening in a sense that you
(02:18):
know, since I was very littlechild, I had been searching for
answers for very big questions.And, you know, I was always
looking for that sense of peaceand sense of calm and that
sense, where everything feelswarm, everything feels just
(02:42):
right. And, obviously, when thewar started, and when I was
writing, in response to what washappening in the world around
me, I was feeling like, theriver of life was just gushing
from behind me, and it was justtaking me to places it was a bit
(03:04):
overwhelming, it was veryoverwhelming. And with this
with this, this album, I feelthat the waters have calmed, I
feel that
I am in a much better place, youknow, in my home world, in my
family, and where I am as anartist, and and yeah, I just
(03:30):
basically found my spiritualmentor. And that is sort of my
secret of, of calling it FindingHome because,
you know, I just, I believe thatwe are souls and you find home
and that essence of you being asoul and a body. So it's really
(03:56):
about the sinking into thisbeautiful realization and the
exploration of it. I'm just noteven scratching the surface. But
that was, that was basically myspiritual process behind the
making of Finding Home.
Yeah, and it sounds like quite acurious experience, perhaps, in
(04:22):
terms of what it is you'refinding in yourself and, and,
and did you even need courageperhaps to be open to that, that
experience and to accept it?
Yeah, you always need courage,because change is always scary.
And, you know, you just there'salways a death of the older
(04:44):
self, you know, of the smallerself of of the things that no
longer serve you to embrace yourgreater self. And that is never
comfortable. So, so yes, but I'min it. it's completely worth it.
And it sounds like the the albumwas equally perhaps a healing
(05:08):
process for you as well as, aswell as a healing that you, that
you wish to disseminate.
Absolutely. And then it was Iwas just reflecting about
because I was right, I waswriting it over a period of
years, but then I was reallygoing through an intense period
of writing. And during this timeof the year, last year, and all
(05:32):
the way to until August, when werecorded it. And, you know, when
I was writing, I don't sleep, Ilose so much weight. I have,
like, very interesting, veryvisual dreams. And I feel so
(05:53):
much light so much in intake iscoming, you know, there's so
much like filtering through mybeing. And that is that is
healing. I mean, in a way I seemyself as a conduit as a
messenger for whatever comesthrough me, I don't see myself
(06:14):
Oh, I created all of this. I'mjust simply seeing myself as a
humble messenger, who just needsto listen. And you know, just
put it out in the world. Andobviously, that light will and
that beautiful healing musicwill heal me first and then so I
(06:35):
can put it out in the world. Butyeah, that's how I see it.
And it sounds like a reallybeautiful but really powerful
personal process, you know,losing weight, you know, that
physical impact. You know,that's, that's a lot, isn't it,
for you to trust. It's a bigprocess to trust.
(06:58):
Yeah, absolutely. And then Isort of know that, okay, this is
happening, and I'm just, just,you just need to surrender to
it. And yeah, to embrace it,because it's so profoundly
beautiful. So have
you, you know, even from a childalways experienced vivid dreams
(07:23):
and have you come to a place nowwhere again, you accept those
dreams and almost start to readthem like a book and and learn
from them?
Yeah, I always had dreams, Ialways had very vivid dreams I
used to. I used to have veryvivid dreams and wake up first
thing in the morning and meetdraw pictures of them when I was
(07:43):
very little. Yeah. So I'm veryclosely connected to the world
of imagination. Since since Iwas a child, I loved it. I loved
folktales and fairy tales fromall over the world. And, you
know, and just to be in touchwith it through nature through
(08:05):
any way really. Yeah, I alwaysfind that like, sort of awakens,
my, my inner child and ticklesit in a very lovely way.
Yeah, and it's reallyinteresting when people refer to
the inner child and, and I knowthat, you know, you've also
(08:27):
referred to recapturing the optimism of the child. And
you were you were talking aboutone of your pieces of music in
particular. And it felt like youwere valuing that childlike
quality of openness, optimism,curiosity, if you like, and I
(08:53):
wondered if you could share withthe listeners how you
interpreted that in, in, in oneof the pieces of your music?
Yeah, so you're particularlytalking about Walk with Me?
Yeah. That piece came about inthat, so I, I pray and meditate
(09:13):
before I compose, and I do thesame thing before I go on stage.
And I pray for the music tobring peace and, or healing in
any way or form. And so in thepandemic there was lockdown
everywhere. And, and,obviously, I learned that just
(09:40):
to go within as part of myspiritual process, you know,
regularly every day, and when,when I went to prayer I saw
like all humanity workingtogether towards a better, more
compassionate future foreveryone on the earth. And it
was such a beautiful, such acomforting image. And I, and
(10:06):
then this piece of musicbasically unfolded. And I
originally wanted to have alittle girl singing the main
melody, which I will do it oneday. But yeah, yeah, it
just because to be honest withyou, um, in my heart of hearts,
(10:28):
I'm very much, you know, verysilly and very goofy and I
have a lot of optimism and manypeople are looking at me
thinking, Okay, you're crazy.You're not practical enough. And
I go like, fine. That's me. Youknow? So yeah, that was the
(10:51):
process behind that. So it'sjust yeah... it's always
lovely to hear like, I had afriend who was going through a
rough time. And she was sayingthat she uses the space as a
shield. So, I love that. Iabsolutely love it.
That's an interesting choice ofword isn't a shield. So
(11:15):
interesting. I was fascinated bywhat she was saying.
So it's offered her a form ofcomfort or protection in terms
of a shield.
Yeah, yeah, that's what she meant, which meant so
much to me.
Yeah, absolutely. And shows theeffects the desired effects of
(11:35):
of your, your music, a form ofhealing and protection and
comfort. And I wondered in termsof embracing optimism, and it's
so lovely that you, youembrace and live your, your own
inner child, how you held on tothat, when optimism must have
(11:57):
been so deeply challenged by thewar and, and witnessing
destruction in your home ofSyria?
Oh, gosh. Yeah, I just, I thinkI was surrounded by a lot of
grace. At that time, you know,because it was, it was a really
(12:22):
difficult time, because,obviously, I was hearing the
news of, you know, friends andfamily being killed, being
kidnapped, places I love beingdestroyed, you know, the thought
that I will never see my parentsagain. And obviously, also the
bigger pain that oh my gosh,this is happening to my
(12:44):
homeland. And it's so deeplypainful. It's also the deep pain
that my you know, the brothersand the sisters are fighting
each other. You know, there is, there is a schism in the
integral structure of societywhich really, really, really,
(13:07):
really pained me at the deepestlevel. And at the same time, I
was going through domestic abuseat the same time, so it was,
mad because it was like, I have,I'm experiencing a war back
home. Even though I'm in London,you know, I'm not experiencing
actual bombs. But, there isa war in my personal home, while
(13:30):
I was trying to look after achild and make a living and, you
know, figure life out. And, and,yeah, I just, I think it just,
again, it started with a prayer,you know, just, and I remember,
there was a voice in my headsaying, you either do something,
(13:50):
or you perish. And I remember,you know, my son at the time,
the two things that kept megoing were my son, and my music.
I remember my son used to try topractice you know, I forced myself
to practice because I had a concert and, and he was tiny.
(14:12):
He was like, two and a half,three. And he used to bow to me
after every single piece sayingthank you, mummy, and,
and he said, I just looked atthis child and think, how do you
know, just how can you know, youknow, how can you do this? So
(14:34):
you know, and yeah, so I wassurrounded by a lot of Earth
Angels, a lot of grace at thetime that somehow kept me going
through all of this madness.And, yeah, I couldn't have done
it without that, basically.
Yeah, I mean, you're describingsuch deep anxiety and and
(15:00):
struggle, you know, when youhave the anxiety of your, your
home your family in Syria in awar context and, and as you
say, directly in your, your homesetting, that I wondered whether
prayer and faith not only givesyou resilience and courage, but
(15:21):
is it also when you talk offinding home, is it, is it a
universal home?
Yeah, very much so very much.So. Yeah. Because, you know,
with, with my music, eventhough it is rooted in my
(15:43):
personal experience, I alwayswanted it to move to the
universal so like, even Syriandreams, I wanted it to be a
prayer for peace, not innorthern Syria, but the whole
world. But with Finding Home,they're universal, you know,
moving from the local to theuniversal, despite the local
(16:04):
being, which is Syria, you know,being in my heart of hearts,
and, you know, it will always bemy home, because that's, that's
my roots. But if you asked menow where is home, I would say it's
a state, you know, it's a stateof, of perfect peace, you know,
where, and you can experiencethat state in so many different
(16:26):
ways, you can just experienceit, well, you know, you're in
nature, or while you are lookingat somebody's face, and they're
smiling at you, or you're havingtea, or, you know, just while
you're meditating it just anyany, you know, in any way that
(16:46):
you experienced that peace. Andthat is universal. That's what
we all look for really. Youknow, no matter how that
looks like for us.
Yeah. So it's interesting, whenyou think about home as a state,
(17:10):
something that can always bewith you and not vulnerable to
place. It gives you an addedlayer of security, perhaps and
would you say that tied in withfinding the courage to, you
know, leave a difficultrelationship one of domestic
(17:31):
abuse? Is it a form ofresilience and, and security? Is
it, is it a pathway that helpsyou see your way through?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean,without that courage you need,
you need a lot of, you know,there's so much, you know, talk
(17:52):
about power and how power lookslike, and it's often, you know,
connected to physical force oraggression. And, but power is
you have the power to choosepeace, you know, over drama or
over madness, that, that takes alot of courage that takes a lot
(18:15):
of strength. That takes a deepcommitment. I'm not saying I'm
perfectly there. No, I'm a workin progress. You know, I have so
much to learn and so much toimprove. I'm very human. And,
but I made the commitment to, tobasically keep the compass of my
(18:37):
life, you know, in everydecision I make in everything I
do, does it lead me towards thathome, spiritual home? Does it
take me away from it? If itleads me to it? I'm all in. If
it takes me away from it. I willsay no, even though if it looks
wonderful. So, yeah, it's, it'sall connected. Everything's
(19:00):
connected to everything,basically, to that one choice,
basically. And to what is yourcompass? And yeah,
yes, it's very interesting,because I remember when you
introduced Bombs Turn intoRoses from your album, Syrian
Dreams, and I'll let you shareand describe the dream you had
(19:25):
for the for the listeners, itseems to be very much about
transformation and almost byaccepting home as a state, it
almost allows you to re-visualize rewrite, or recreate
the home that you want to see.
(19:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know,in a way, I mean, every artist
has their own, every person inthe world they has their own,
you know, mission and impactwhich is in the world that
is very personal. But to me,particularly with this piece, I
(20:07):
felt that I was filteringsomething very difficult,
something very heavy
and transmuting it to somethingsofter. And I had this dream
when I was going through thisdifficult period of
(20:28):
the two wars. And in the dream Iwas sitting under, or standing
under a sky full of bombs. Andit was a place completely
covered with ruins. And I waslooking up and the sky was
completely full of bombs fallingdown slowly. And just before
(20:53):
they hit me, they turned towhite roses. So I wake up
like three in the morning,crying, and I hold the qanun
and the main theme comes out.I'm just writing like, I'm half
awake, you know. And when Iwondered about the meaning of
the white petals, because that'sthat's the point where I felt so
(21:17):
much relief. I was, yeah, therealization came later when I
was invited to a gathering and Iwas invited to imagine white
petals of peace falling to theearth.
And I was like, Ah, here it is.That's what it means. And, yeah,
(21:39):
I mean, I feel it. I feel itwhen I when I play this piece.
It's really, it's reallystrange. I just feel the
filtering in my own body. And Ioften cry, you know, on stage,
because it's such an intenseprocess. But yeah, and
(22:00):
again, yeah, so I'm gratefulthat the piece despite the
heaviness of it, you know, justbrings in that peace. So yeah,
yeah. It's really strong andpowerful imagery or spiritual
messaging, that that you'reliterally feeling physically and
(22:25):
interpreting musically, itseems.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's onefor me. All of this. It's not,
it's not separate. Everything isa one continuum.
And in the same way that youhave expressed finding home as a
(22:47):
state, as a universal home, ifyou like, you also composed the
Universal Mother on the samealbum, and I felt it was a
beautiful piece in that on onehand, there was deep melancholy,
but it also felt very strong andvery connected somehow. And I
(23:09):
wondered if you could tell usabout that particular piece of
music and the dynamic of thesituation you were in, in terms
of your place and your mother'splace at the time?
Yeah, so I am, I live in the UK,in London, and my mum and dad,
(23:31):
they live in Damascus in Syria,they chose not to leave. And,
obviously, because I am a mum, Icouldn't take my son there,
because it felt risky. So Ihaven't seen them for five or
(23:52):
six years, and then before that,I haven't seen them for another
five or six years. So it's anawful long time, awfully long
time to spend without yourparents and your mother. And so
when I was going through theprocess of writing, and I was
(24:15):
just hit by this huge wave ofnostalgia and I felt
something really swelling in me.And I was really missing my
mother. And when I sat at myqanun, I wrote like the core
melody, and again, there werethere were tears flowing. And in
(24:38):
that moment, I had a whisperthat "You're always in my
embrace." And I believe that wasthe Universal Mother, you know,
divine mother or whatever youwant to call it. That was
telling you that we're always inher embrace, and every single
moment even though I can't, Ican't reach my human mother, I'm
(24:59):
always being mothered by themother of everything. And yeah,
so in that piece, there is a lotof longing and nostalgia. It's
like a strong call to themother. To come to me,
basically. So yeah, there iscomfort in it there is pain in it.
(25:20):
Yeah. And everything in between.
Yeah, but but it really did feellike a almost, like a physical
connection. That was what was solovely about it. The melancholy
was very deep. But there was areal strength in it. And it felt
like, it felt like the physicalconnection that you that you
currently can't have. That's so
(25:41):
lovely, thank you.
So if you were to think of homein terms of Syria, obviously, in
relation to family, where wouldyou be happiest playing and who
to?
Oh, gosh, will naturally Damascus and because that's
(26:04):
where I grew up. And that'swhere I studied. And
it's really funny, I would say,you know, just I would say,
because when I was very littleI, my household because my, my,
my dad was a scriptwriter, andwell, writer a greater term,
(26:29):
and my mother was a translator,and we had guests from, you
know,
you know, actors, philosophers,writers, sculptors, painters,
everything in between. And theyused to ask me to play for them,
you know. And I used to get soannoyed. I'd actually love to go back
(26:54):
to the to that, you know, it's,it was so intimate and so
lovely. There was even one... Yeah. So I would go
back to that. You know, thatwould be really nice to
recreate.
Yeah, I mean, what anamazingly culturally rich
household. I mean, that would,for most of us, be a dream come
(27:15):
true. Isn't it funny that as achild, you could have felt
annoyed? Because they were comingall the time. No. But what's
also lovely is as a child, youwere quite prepared to respond
(27:39):
positively to annoyance. And whatI'm referring to is when you
were only nine years old,sitting in the back of a taxi
cab, and I'll let you explainthe rest of the story.
Yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah,basically, you know, because I
was, singing, dancing,tapping all the time. So my
parents put me in a MusicInstitute and we had like a
(28:06):
solfeggio, a music theoryclass. So my mother took me
there. It was like a very hotsummer's day in Damascus. And
the taxi driver turned on theradio on. And there came the
sound of the qanun. And it justfelt, I just felt so much love.
And I was like, What is thisinstrument? I want to play it. And
(28:30):
he laughed at me. He said, Youare a girl. This instrument is
for men. Forget about it. And Itold him, I will, you will see.
My mother shrugged hershoulders. Basically, she kissed
me goodbye. She was reading herbook outside the, you know, the
classroom, I walk in. And afterlike about 10 minutes, the head
(28:55):
of the institute walks in andannounces the opening of a qanun
class. And I was like, Oh mygosh, okay, so I just ran
straight after the class and Isuppose the first to sign up to
the astonishment of my mother.But obviously at the same time,
you know, at the beginning atthat time, I was I was doing
(29:17):
violin, you know, I was like,I really didn't love it. You
know, I was just doing it justbecause my parents wanted me to
do it at that stage, you know,seeing seeing my face you know,
my determination my my parentsreturned that violin and yeah,
in two days, I had a huge secondhand qanun five times my size
(29:42):
waiting for me on the coffeetable. So that's how this
started.
It's an incredible strike ofdestiny don't you
think? You know moments before aclass is announced you have that
experience in a taxi but an experience that was potentially
going to shut you down. It was avery prejudiced experience. You
(30:05):
know, this is a male onlyinstrument. What what an
incredible juxtaposition of twostrikes of destiny?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you only need to tell me that you
can't do something. And then I golike, right, let's get busy and
get it done. So so
that was the purpose of the taxidriver. He was a, he was a gift
(30:25):
he was helping. Yeah, that'sreally interesting. So at the
same time, I wondered whetherthere was any intimidation at
such a young age with learningthe instrument, because it's
also described as possibly themost difficult instrument in the
world to learn. And were thereany key players that spurred you
(30:48):
on that gave you courage andinfluenced you to overcome any
any fears you may have had?
Yes, I mean, I'm, I'm in, youneed to understand that Syria is
a, an, it's a patriarchalsociety. And it's, the key
figure in the house that makedecisions is, is really the
(31:12):
father. So if your fatheropposes, you know, you learning
music, or you acting or youdancing or whatever, then that's
it. That's the end of, of it,basically, for you. So I was
really leaning on support of family really, you know, because
(31:33):
I was just being because my mumand dad were the most incredibly
supportive, supportive parentsthat anybody could hope for. It
really, wherever was happeningoutside that bubble, didn't
matter. I did feel uncomfortablein many stages of my life. You
(31:57):
know, particularly when Istarted performing on stage and,
you know, you would get faced bylooks of dismay. So, but, um, I
would just look at my mum anddad who were like, you know,
incredibly proud of me. And Iwas like, well, doesn't matter,
you know. So, in the earlystages, it was just really, my,
(32:22):
my, my parents had just got megoing. And later on, I just, I
encountered teachers that reallysupported me in, in finding my,
you know, sonic identity. So,yeah.
Yeah, so as, as a female, youknow, as a child as an adult,
(32:46):
playing what's perceived as atraditionally male instrument,
and, and this comes up elsewherein orchestras, you know, there's
prejudices where women andcertain instruments are
concerned, which has even led tovery interesting, blind
auditioning to remove some ofthose, you know, barriers of
(33:06):
prejudice. So, how, how far didthat go in terms of potentially
potentially stopping you ordefeating you in terms of having
to confront that?
(33:29):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's,like, there were some sometimes,
like, some, like, a long timeago, when I was in the Institute of
music, somebody wrote a reallyhorrible review of one of, you
know, just sort of attacking mefor being a woman, you know, so
(33:53):
it was like an attack in thepublic, you know, so I was like,
Oh, my gosh, I want to, youknow, hide under a pillow for
the rest of my life. And he wasvery famous, you know, so, so,
yeah, I, and obviously, youknow, sometimes you would go to,
(34:14):
like the conservatoiresensemble, where you you need to
participate. It's part of yourlearning. And part of that
you're supposed to improvise,you need to do something called
the Taksim improvisations. Andthat taksim is like the pinnacle
of artistic expression. If youdon't know how to do a taksim,
(34:35):
then you're not you're not anartist, you're not, a player, you
know, doesn't deserve to becalled a musician. So I would
get like slightly hinted at saying, Yeah, Shall I do it for
you I can do the taksim for youby other gentleman. And I'll go
like, I can do it myself. Thankyou. So I'm you know, taxi
(34:55):
drivers, you know, grinning atyou saying, Oh, you're an
artist. You don't care. All ofthese things of the sort, you
know, in the daily life thatmake you go. And when I was, you
know, halfway in my studies, Ireally wanted to quit music
altogether, I just really hit a,you know, a proper roadblock.
(35:20):
But again, my parents keptsaying, just keep going, keep
going. And yeah, so that was myexperience with that.
You do have incredible courage,self possession, I know that we
don't necessarily feelcourageous at the time, but when
(35:40):
you consider wading throughthose kinds of prejudices, when
you consider that you have hadto accept such long distance
from family due to war, due toCovid, when you have had to face
fear in your own home, you know,leaving a domestic abuse
situation, you have outstandingself possession and resilience,
(36:05):
do you recognize that inyourself as as a form of
courage?
You you're very kind, I'm goingto be honest with you, I just I
feel that I had no choice but tokeep going, really, you know, I
(36:26):
had no choice. And again, I had,even though things were
incredibly difficult, I hadthese beautiful moments of
grace. Where I, you know, thatkept me going. So, yeah, that's
(36:46):
the way how I see it, you know,I just,
I, my, my, one of my bestfriends, she says, Oh, sometimes
I look at your life. And it's abit of like an Indian Bollywood
film.
And I laugh, you know, you know,I just laugh, but the way I
(37:08):
see it is that I had no choicebut to keep going. I had no
choice, you know, I just had to. And even though the
world was, you know, there areso many there was, so the
easiest, perhaps thing was tojust give up, but I had to move
on for my, for my son, I hadto move on. There was always
(37:32):
something that, you know, in themoment when things go really
dark. There's like this flash ofgrace that gives you, propose you
to the next 100 miles orwhatever. And, you know, things
go dark again, and again, youknow, through what I call Earth
Angels or some event that justgives you another push of
(37:53):
strength to keep you going?Yeah, that's how I see it. I
just have to.
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like, youknow, courage as sheer
necessity. And, and I'm alsoimagining that, this really
explains why you must be such agood teacher. So for example,
(38:14):
when you were talking about, youknow, really harsh experiences
of criticism, I think criticscan behave very irresponsibly,
as, instead of supporting aprocess or an education, and
forget, that people are entitledto develop are entitled to, to
(38:38):
be vulnerable and and should becommended for their
vulnerability, whilst they aretrying to improve something or
in your case, at that time, youwere, you know, you were
developing your music, yourmusicianship? Is this all part
of informing how you choose toteach because I know that you
(39:01):
are also trying to activelydemystify how Arabic music is
understood.
Yeah, yeah, very much. So. Imean, I think yeah, I mean, it's
very interesting that you'rebringing in vulnerability and you
know, obviously I'm and it'sinteresting because my mum would
(39:26):
always say that it's really goodthat I am building a career here
because I can show that side ofmyself and, and let me tell you,
I had huge vulnerabilityhangovers, you know, you know,
when I put something sosensitive and fragile in the
world, I almost get sick for like, a couple of days and, and it just
(39:46):
like, I don't want to doanything I just can't handle you
know, it just I can't get overthe fact that I put myself out
there in such an open way. Butit is, the more I see the
positive and the human and thehealing impact of that,
the more I embrace it, you know,it's a process. It's not, it's
not, it's an it's really notcomfortable, you know, but when
(40:10):
it comes to teaching, I thinkthere is, what really makes me
go nuts is that there's so muchsnobbism, in teaching Arabic
music, there's so many basicallyunspoken rules, that makes it
almost impossible for people tolearn. And, like, versus the
(40:34):
Maqam system, the, you know,the, the musical theory, the
mood system, and, which isbasically the rule, core
material from which claymaterial from which you shape,
you know, music. So, that, yeah,it's, you know, the, the
(40:55):
theoreticians have agreed todisagree, and it's, the theory
is really far from practice,really far from how music is
actually played, you know, onthe ground. So, basically, I
have felt the urge to createthe systems, like for instance I teach
(41:17):
Maqam, I created a system toteach Maqam with Lego pieces.
So you have like a visualrepresentative. And so I created
the systems that I wish I had,when I was, you know, studying
that are very hands on, thathelp anybody to learn Arabic
music, qanun, same, same thing. Soyou know, learning is
(41:41):
that you don't, there are nosystems, and you have to go to a
teacher to teach and thenthere's a process of like
copying, there's a lot of trialand error. And most people
can't afford that and don't wantto spend this much time that you
know, the tempo of life is sofast in the UK, Europe, and the
(42:03):
US, people don't have time to youknow, spend a year with a
mentor. It's not it's, it's notrealistic. So, you know, just
creating the system for anybodywho love Arabic music, who
anybody who wants to learn. Andno matter where we are, their
(42:23):
age, no matter if they know howto read music, no matter if they
play the instrument in theirlife or not. It's very
accessible, that, you know, thetheory theoretical side is there
for those who want to indulge inthat. But you know, it's to
start with it's very immediate,super accessible. Because yeah,
I can't stand the fact thatsomebody comes to me saying, Oh,
(42:46):
I love I love, I'd love to knowhow to do taqim, like me, you
know, when I was at and, and Ihave no clue because I have no
idea how I'm going to start, youknow, learning maqam, you know,
because maqam is sort of thealphabet from which you need to,
you know, learn and to createwords and sentences and musical
(43:06):
stories. So yeah, I have I havea lot of passion around, you
know, just make it making itmore accessible to anybody who
will just love it. The onlyprerequisite that you need this.
Do you love it? Yes. Okay, good.That's perfect. So yeah,
yeah. So you're, you'reallowing, you're allowing
(43:28):
openness, you're allowingcuriosity, aren't you? It's a
healthy form of, of discovery,exploration. And so how does
this also translate in terms ofthe really lovely and
significant work you do withrefugee communities? Because I
understand that's a form ofteaching in terms of, of
exploring home, and I wonderedif you could tell us about that.
(43:53):
Yeah,
I mean, that started when I, Iwouldn't call it a form of
teaching, it just, I would callit like an offering and
experience. You know, I startedworking with a therapeutic
theatre company called oilycoat, who do incredible work
with children with autism and,and multiple challenges and
(44:15):
disabilities. And I had thepleasure to curate the music for
one of their shows, with a musicdirector, Max Reinhardt and then
tour across the UK in venues andschools. And I've seen so many,
you know, does the show waslike, what, 20 minutes, but I've
seen so many magical moments,you know, that really inspired
(44:38):
me to, to do something forrefugee children's. And that's
when I created the seven gatesin Damascus, with the music
director of OD cart, which isbasically a musical storytelling
offering. Again, it's a one offthing that you experienced that
will hopefully lead you to amore peaceful place. But also,
(45:02):
not always, I can run thatbecause it's it requires, you
know, carrying big props. So,you know, with with refugee
communities as part of theFinding Home Tour, because I
believe as within so without,you know, you need to know that
finding home is my innerprocess. But in the outside, I
(45:22):
needed to sort of create anexperience where somebody even
can experience an inkling ofhome, you know, which is by, you
know, offering them, offeringrefugee communities, tickets to
concerts, getting all venues onboard without, you know, having
school workshops as part of thetour where we target schools
(45:45):
with high population ofrefugees, and then again, going
to deliver refugee communityworkshops, as well as the seven
gates of Damascus. So yeah, justbasically reaching them in, in
any and every way I can. So, youknow, I'm always fascinated by
how powerful the, the sound ofthe qanun is, I'm always, you
(46:10):
know, discovering that, and I'm,it's always quite a humbling
experience to witness that.Because, you know, the sound of
the qanun, in so many ways cantransport somebody to a place to
an emotion. And I don't know howmany times I heard that, the
(46:32):
sound of the qanun. And that,that somebody would say, oh, it
took me back to the time when Iwas spending with my
grandmother. And playing in herbackyard, it took me back to the
smell of the cooking of mymother, it took me back to a
place that I really love, ittook me back to a memory that I
(46:52):
really love. It's, I always hearthat, you know, by, you know,
refugee communities and, and weoften share, you know, laughter
and tears, sometimes acombination of both, you know,
and so, I always find thatextremely humbling. And, because
(47:15):
I am very aware of that I wantedall venues to, to basically
reserve a number of tickets forrefugee communities, because at
the end of the day, you know,the, the venues that I am
playing are classical venues.And to somebody who, who is
(47:39):
here, as a refugee, they mightseem cold and aloof, and not
accessible. And it's veryimportant for me to break the
ice to bring them in. And at thesame, so basically, every single
venue, reserved a number oftickets for refugee communities
(47:59):
to come. At the same time I wentto then I went to schools, where
the high population of refugeesdelivered workshops, sometimes I
would work with the children,and then I would invite them to
come and perform with me onstage. And, and also, you know,
delivering refugee communityworkshops. So it's basically
(48:20):
it's all about, you know, seeingwhat's possible, because, you
know, just to be very, very, youknow, realistic and just just to
offer to do any offering I can,as much as I can really just to
help, you know, reach thosecommunities, because it's so
(48:42):
important for me.
Yeah, it's a really lovelyextension of your work and your
healing work. And in terms ofyou know, we've been talking
about a universal home, amusical, a musical home,
different worlds, if you like,you know, that have a common
(49:03):
universality. I'm alsointerested in that process when
you're actually recording andand you know, you're working
with a producer, you you've alsoworked with Opera North, for
example, and I wondered if youcould maybe tell us about those
relationships. And I wasn't sureif whether the Opera North
(49:24):
relationship came out of anexisting operatic tradition that
you may have already had inSyria, for example.
Right. Yeah, I'm in. So I had anexisting relationship with with
Opera North, in a sense thatthey, I performed there as part
(49:46):
of my Syrian Dreams launch tourin 2018. And then, they have
commissioned me to write to beone of the writers as part of
the project walking home, whichis basically is when sonic
journeys that people can listento when walking during lockdown,
(50:06):
and silver lining, which is thelongest track on the finding of
album is is commissioned bythem. And it's it's not, you
know, the there's no immediateconnection or with a operatic
line of work in Syria, but thereis a definite connection in
(50:28):
terms of, you know, exploring,how does classical music of
other traditions look like?Because I don't you know, if for
those who are very interestedin, you know, categorization, I
don't see my music as well,music, per se, I see as Arabic
chamber music, I see it asclassical music, you know, it's
(50:50):
a classical music from adifferent world. And obviously,
it contains so many differentelements. But if I am to put a
label on it, that's why I wouldput personally. So it's just
that common curiosity of howdoes that look like, you know,
how does that classicaltradition of, of players and
(51:10):
composers who are rooted in a inan ancient tradition that goes
back 1000s of years, who aretrying to explore how does that
music, you know, look like in acontemporary context, that
curiosity was was definitely avery strong connection between
us and which is why I went toopera north again. And I was
like, Well, I'd love to write,I'm hearing that because the way
(51:38):
I write is that I write and thenI start to hear layers of sound.
And I was like, Okay, I'mhearing string quartet for a
couple of the tracks, would yoube able to support me in
providing a string quartet fromyour orchestra? That will be
incredible. And amazingly, theydid say, yes. So. So three
tracks are, are basically four,they include string quartet. So
(52:05):
that, and yeah, so that was from the side of
Opera North and then from theBritish Museum, I also went to
them saying, I'd love tocollaborate, because I went to
organizations that I felt that Ihad a lovely connection with, I
felt sort of whom were with.Yeah. And, and then we're like,
(52:26):
okay, so we have this exhibitioncalled Reflections. It's an
exhibition about artists from,you know, the Middle East
exploring conflict identity.Would you like to attend? And
would you like to see if youwould be called to compose
pieces of music inspired by thework of surprise, and I was
(52:48):
like, Absolutely, there will bean adventure. I've never done
that. Anything like that before?So I, yeah, so I went to the
exhibition during lockdown. And,and I, you know, I was the
curious thing was sat on theside, and I was exploring the
works of art, and I saw what wascalling to me. And I went home
and started writing. So this,this, you know, sense of
(53:11):
collaboration in this album isvery, very, very strong,
because, you know, even evenwalk with me was a was a
commissioned by BBC Radio threeas well. So, and then also, I
knew that I wanted the, the,because I'm not experienced as a
producer. And so I worked withLeo Abraham's, who is
(53:34):
incredible. He's such a prolificproducer who worked with every
shade of music possible that youcan imagine, you know. And most
importantly, he's, he's, he'svery, very warm and very kind
hearted, and so, and deeplylistens to my vision. So I co-
produced the album with him. Soyeah, the whole album,
(53:59):
basically, there's so much andan insane amount of energy and
love, and that and attentionthat went into every detail of
the album, by all thecollaborators, you know, and
also to add, this is anindependent record. So when I
was writing my Arts Councilapplication, I was like, you
know, many people agreed to beput down as partners, you know,
(54:23):
all of the tour dates, you know,all of the tour venues, they
were like, Yeah, you have oursupport. So there was a lot of
generosity, you know, when itcame to making this album.
So yeah, and I'm so grateful forit. And yeah, and I hope that
I'll be able to pay it back.
Yeah. And a lovely comment,actually, that Dominic Grey at
(54:44):
Opera North made was how theirmusicians learn so much more
about the potential of their owninstruments by working with you
and I wondered if that's almosta common thread with all of your
musical collaborations?
I mean, that was very sweet ofhim to say that because, you
(55:05):
know, I'm an I always seeeverything as an exploration,
it's everything is a process oflearning, I'm always learning, I
will always be learning. It wasso amazing to work out was I'm
not gonna lie, I was a bitscared of the experience
because, you know, with, withother musicians I had, I had
(55:30):
about a month, you know, ofsitting with them bringing the
music to them fine tuning andnothing was written, you know,
with Opera North I had one day.So I had to get the score to a
point of perfection working withagain, and another collaborator
was that amazing orchestratorKalina Del Amare, you know, to get
the score to a point of absoluteperfection. So we had four hours
(55:54):
to rehearse for hours to record,and that was it, you know. So
there was a different processfor every for every single
piece, and it was very importantfor me to, you know, for, yeah,
just to capture the music as, asaccurately as honestly as I can,
(56:15):
before I can go there, and thenhave the intimate experience of
recording with him. And theywere absolutely phenomenal. And
yeah, so I that really opened somany doors in my head, you know,
this experience. So I would sayI'm the one who learned so much
so yeah.
Yeah, it's lovely because,again, it was it was Dominic
(56:35):
Grey of Opera North that mentionedthat. The process is the same as
creating a dialogue, but thatyou're able to bring old and new
together, you know, that you canwork with classical traditional
music, but you're open tocontemporary ideas. And would
you say that, that's a fairdescription, and that it's also,
(56:58):
therefore a dialogue that helpsyou reach new and wider and
different audiences as a result?
Yeah, I'm in for on a, on a, youknow, in a very logical, very
pragmatic way of thinking, Yes,that's accurate. But I must add
that whenever I write the music,I don't think oh, I'm gonna make
(57:18):
this album, a classical album.I'm just simply sitting and just
listening to whatever layersthat are needed that to convey
the emotional fingerprint of theemotional charge of the piece.
You know, I'm not thinking, youknow, so that's why it's, I
always find it very fascinatinghow people hear other, you know,
(57:42):
musical traditions and in mymusical like, Oh, okay. You
know, when when somebody firsttold me that, I hear Philip
Glass and this and this music orI hear, you know, a bit of
ambience, music and you music.So, like, fascinating. So, yes,
in a, in the logical way, youknow, of putting, you know, it's
(58:06):
yes, it is the case, but in aemotional spiritual sense. It's,
I'm just basically listening tothe music and waiting for her to
show me where I'm gonna go next.Regardless of, you know, the
box, it's in.
Yeah, yeah. And so, Maya,unfortunately, as time always
(58:27):
races by and say that I don'tsteal you for too long, I should
probably think about the finalquestion of this episode. Where
we consider the question Can art save us, which isn't a simple,
yes or no answer. But I wasinterested in a quote from you,
(58:49):
which, in which you said, "I seemyself as a tree. I'm rooted in
Syria, but my branches can goanywhere." And I wondered if that
may relate in some way as to howyou might answer the series
question. Can art save us?
(59:09):
Yeah, I would say yes. Andabsolutely, yes, art saved my
life, you know, I would not behere without, you know, music
and without, again, my son. Soit did save my life. And even
though it cannot feed thehungry, and it cannot save the
(59:32):
wounded and, you know, it justit has a different purpose,
which is, you know, going to theheart of the collective
experience of humankind and, andtransmitting it or translating
it into something that has aheart resonance, something that
(59:55):
you can feel in your heart. It'snot it's not logical. It's not a
thought process. Something thatyou can feel a note in your
heart, which is, I think it'sthe most honest and most direct
way of expression and relatingto others. Like talking to
somebody from your heart withoutwithout words. And I believe
(01:00:19):
that, you know, just, it's sucha big question. But again, I'm
gonna answer it, you know, inthe way I see it, is that, you
know, some pieces of art, you'reliterally transmuting, something
heavy, to something softer, somepieces of art few just allowing
yourself to, to daydream andmeander in, in the imagination
(01:00:42):
world. Everything has its place,everything has has a meaning.
And, you know, again, if you donot, if I was not rooted in, in
that tradition, or within theSyrian tradition that goes back
1000s of years, I would not havethe musical language I would not
(01:01:04):
be my branches would not be ableto be able to roam so freely and
won't be able to explore themany you know, realms of sound
that are possible. So so yes,absolutely. Art can save us.
Maya, thank you so much forbeing so generous with your time
(01:01:26):
and for being so brave, in termsof how openly you've spoken
today. And, and of course, ahuge thank you for being someone
that is spreading so muchhealing in the world. Thank you
so much for your time.
Thank you so much. Thank you somuch for less such a pleasure
talking to you.
You too.
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