November 12, 2024 • 61 mins
David Emmanuel Noel, is a visual and interdisciplinary artist who often splits his time between New York and London. He collaborates with musicians and performers to explore race, identity and culture with an emphasis on public engagement. He's interested in promoting a fairer, kinder and inclusive society and he's worked with socially conscious organisations including New York's Groundswell Community Mural Project, the Powerhouse, a UK charity supporting women with learning difficulties, the National Network for Art and Health and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. He's also worked with the Royal Institute of British Architects and David has a very clear interest in the social and therapeutic benefits of art in public spaces. He clearly states every artist should see their art form as a therapeutic tool above or beyond anything else. David is also a political science graduate and holds an MA in European Studies. How the arts can influence socio-economic and political trends is clearly on his radar. His broad interests across the creative industries have also culminated in David co-founding Occhi Arts and Entertainment, which includes consultancy and an online magazine to showcase artists and to promote arts advocacy. David's artwork has been featured at highly prestigious venues such as the Philadelphia Museum of Art and the Kennedy Centre, Washington DC, along with galleries in London and festivals. His career is undoubtedly like a rich tapestry of work, a cloak for good. His paintings are full of movement and colour, sensory in intent and heightened in collaborations with musicians such as Grammy Award-nominated US band Cloud9 and Daryl Yokely's Sound Reformation. Everything speaks out.
The Art of PR is the first exhibition to collectively present the work of established and emerging artists from the UK public relations sector, including David Emmanuel Noel and Tonye Ekine, also in Season 7.
Visit the Coningsby Gallery: info@coningsbygallery.com / 07884 314361
18 November 2024–23 November 2024
www.coningsbygallery.com/exhibition/the-art-of-pr-november-2024
Discover David Emmanuel Noel: www.davidemmanuelnoelart.net/
Occhi Magazine (Part of Occhi Arts & Entertainment): www.occhimagazine.com/
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all audio interviews in this series.
Read only, text transcripts of every interview, news, reviews and your host, Paula Moore, are available here: https://canartsaveus.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts
(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us?
(00:49):
David Emmanuel Noel is a visualand interdisciplinary artist who
often splits his time betweenNew York and London. He
collaborates with musicians andperformers to explore race,
identity and culture, with anemphasis on public engagement.
He's interested in promoting afairer, kinder and inclusive
society, and he's worked withsocially conscious
(01:11):
organizations, including NewYork's, Groundswell community
mural project, the Powerhouse, aUK charity supporting women with
learning difficulties, theNational Network for Art in
Health and the National Societyfor the Prevention of Cruelty to
Children. He's also worked withthe Royal Institute of British
architects. And David has a veryclear interest in the social and
(01:35):
therapeutic benefits of art inpublic spaces. He clearly states
every artist should see theirart form as a therapeutic tool
above or beyond anything else.David is also a political
science graduate and holds an MAin European Studies. How the
arts can influence socioeconomic and political trends is
(01:58):
clearly on his radar. His broadinterests across the creative
industries have also culminatedin David co-founding Occhi arts
and entertainment, whichincludes consultancy and an
online magazine to showcaseartists and to promote arts
advocacy. David's artwork hasbeen featured at highly
(02:19):
prestigious venues such as thePhiladelphia Museum of Art and
the Kennedy Center Washington,DC, along with galleries in
London and festivals. His careeris undoubtedly like a rich
tapestry of work, a cloak forgood, his paintings are full of
movement and color, sensory inintent and heightened in
(02:40):
collaborations with musicianssuch as Grammy Award nominated
US band, Kloud 9 and DarrylYokley's Sound Reformation,
everything speaks out, and I'mdelighted to speak to David
today. Hello, David and welcome.Thank you for having me. Thank
you.
(03:00):
Thank you so much for making thetime David and thinking about
that introduction, introductionand the emphasis you have on art
as a therapeutic tool, I wasinterested in starting there and
to find out how that personallyevolved for you?
(03:25):
In several ways really,
I think on a personal front,
I've experienced the benefit ofthe arts having a therapeutic
release or component
on a personal front, in terms ofjust my general wellbeing,
(03:46):
mental health and well being,
I tend to feel more relaxed whenI paint. I tend to feel more
relaxed when I play music.
It tends to sort of provide youwith a sort of a mental shift,
which I'm sure most people whoappreciate any form of art, be
it the fact that they may noteven necessarily play or play
music, excuse me, or play aninstrument, or paint
(04:12):
or read it, or are authors ofbooks, but there are, you know,
mediums by which someone canfeel relaxed or, you know,
release a different form ofemotional outlet.
I think that's a sort of on amore personal front, but segue
(04:35):
into experiences I've had withfamily, particularly family who
have been unwell,
seeing the benefits of justplaying music in a room when a
relative is in a coma, and beingable to physically see the
reaction they have,
knowing that it's a pleasantreaction, it's a received
(04:58):
reaction that they
respond to music,
and I think, also liaising withorganizations and individuals
working in the health sector andseeing the benefits,
particularly for
Alzheimer and dementia patientsand how their their sensory
(05:21):
responses is heightened by the
experience of music or dance oror some form of
art that is a catalyst for theirfor their response. And I think
also on a professional front,working with a number of artists
(05:43):
and construction professionals
and designers working in thehealth service and investigating
through evidence based designand case studies, the strong
connection between
the various art forms and howthey play a part in the recovery
rates, responses to patients,and that can be again, via
(06:09):
visual arts,
stimulation of color or thestimulation of music or the
design and construction of of afit for purpose building, be it
a health center or hospital wardwhere there's, you know,
natural, natural light,
(06:29):
space, cross ventilation,natural, you know, natural
abilities for for a body and anindividual to heal
without having to always resortto, obviously, medication. So
it's, it's on a several, severallayers that I find that arts,
(06:51):
whatever the discipline, canhave a magnificent effect on and
a positive effect on people.
Yeah, and the evidence isincreasingly significant in
fields like neuro-aesthetics. Butcertainly, as you were
highlighting that relationshipwith neuroscience, how people
can still respond specificallyto art forms, it's really
(07:16):
important. And actually, for me,this really highlights, of
course, your work, your artworkin the Fusion series. I wondered
if you might like to share moreon that with the listeners,
because I think that series verymuch highlights how color can
really respond positively tomental health and wellbeing.
(07:38):
Yeah, I mean that that thatseries of work does stem from
working, particularly witharchitects and designers on
projects
that are encouraging
hospitals and NHS Trusts andcommissioners of within the
(08:02):
health service to look closelyat the color coordination of
their physical spaces and howcolor can have a major effect on
an
individual's recovery or senseof place or sense of being.
And I think the the Fusionseries is my attempt to maybe
(08:26):
see how strong and powerfulcolors can can accentuate a
sense of calm, or maybe theopposite, aggravate and cause
different types of emotionsbased on their sense of
what those colors signify. Andit is a subjective thing in
(08:49):
terms of, you know, the use ofcolor. And one person may, may
see
a very,
very blue painting, whichwhatever the medium or
medium is used. But if it's aparticular color that dominates
that that particular image, itmight have a, you know, an
(09:14):
adverse effect
to
to explain, I think, a number ofcolors we tend to associate as,
maybe it's a society, thingsthat are good, things that are,
you know, calming, things thatare neutral.
Everyone's palette is different,but at the same time, I suppose,
(09:34):
depending on, you know, oursocietal and environmental
situation, we may associatecolors in different ways.
So I think the fusion is more ofa case of just exploring how I
associate color and giving theaudience an opportunity, viewers
the opportunity to see mypaintings and maybe come to
(09:57):
their own conclusion as towhether or not it.
It provokes a particularthought, whether or not it's
calming, whether or not it's theexact opposite, but yeah, it's
really to question and encouragediscussion in terms of how we
use color and what colors mean.
(10:17):
Yeah, because it's it'scertainly an important area for
exploration, and perhaps evenincluding health professionals
themselves, who of course, maynot necessarily be invested in
arts experiences themselves. SoI wondered if, if you thought we
could all be more curiousperhaps, about how we experience
(10:42):
the arts from that sensory pointof view. Do you think that can
still be better understood? Mostdefinitely,
and I think again, this probablyunderlines the whole importance
of the arts and how theinterplay and interchange
between art forms is is vitallyimportant to our to our growth
(11:06):
and development of society,
our understanding of whatsociety represents,
how
professionals, irrespective oftheir
discipline, can collaborate withwith artists
to enhance and to better theservices and the delivery of, in
(11:32):
this case, patient care,
and looking at ways in which,again, that sort of cross
fertilization of ideas,
practitioners and nonpractitioners alike can
contribute to
healing environments, I like tosay,
and as we, as we witness, as webecome more exposed to
(11:58):
various disciplines andprofessions working together to
enhance our our lifestyles, ourwell being. Not all of them are
from a medical background, butthere's a fusion across
fertilization of ideas based onour respective experiences and
(12:18):
based on the understanding thatcollaboratively we can explore,
probably more holistic solutionsto our health, health care
challenges. And it doesn'tnecessarily mean
going into a hospital or goinginto a
(12:39):
health building, but it can meanagain, that home care, that
community care, and looking atways in which you know an
artist, a local artist or localmusician,
can can assist in a way in whichtheir respective professions or
practices are or have been seenin the past in isolation, but
(13:04):
not seen as a component or witha benefit, a wider benefit, to
an aging community.
Yeah, absolutely, because thiscould be really transformative,
couldn't it, whether, as youwere saying, it's within a
healthcare setting or communitycare and home care. And of
(13:25):
course, music is hugelytherapeutic, and I know this is
really significant in terms ofyour work and your
collaborations. I wondered ifyou could tell us more about the
art of music series. I know jazzfeatures. I really love the it's
(13:49):
like looking at energy. When Ilook at some of the paintings in
that series, there's a real,it's almost, it's almost like a
speed. And for me,
it's visually looking at thesound of jazz, if that makes
sense. Yes, yeah, I like that. Imight use that.
(14:11):
You're welcome.
That'll be my next thing.
You're right. I think, well,again, it's the energy that I
find
with music. And if I can'tremember it was, I
(14:33):
can't remember it was. But therewas an artist, musician who said
that he sees music through incolor,
through colors.
And I guess that's that resonatewith me, because I kind of see
music and color too, and the thejazz series
(14:53):
is maybe an offshoot of what aproject I was working with an
artist.
And friend of mine, DarrylYokely, in New York
for his second album,
and it comprised of 13
(15:14):
tracks.
And this was complementing thePictures at an African
exhibition I understand? Isthis the collaboration? Yeah,
okay, yeah. So the paintings,those aren't, these aren't the
paintings that the art, the Artof Music, but it stemmed from
(15:35):
that. It was a continuation of
following a theme of artinfluenced by music,
I think, with the art of jazzthemed, it was also
provoked by
a couple of visits to a fewJazz, Jazz, Jazz clubs, and
(16:01):
noticing, as you do when you goto these clubs, there are
photographs, black and white,photographs, particularly of
famous jazz icons and
contemporary artists. And I feltthat it's always great to see
those photographs, but I alwaysfeel that there should also be
some form of, I don't know,unique painting, so I suppose at
(16:26):
some stage, hopefully fingerscrossed, maybe the art of jazz
will be in a jazz bar that
is quite welcoming of originalpaintings. It's funny, I'd be
fantastic. It would be, it wouldbe great, but I painted a
painting of a jazz female jazzsinger was based on Ella
(16:53):
Fitzgerald, but nothing doesn'tlook like her, but it she was
the
the the idea behind it. And I itwas an exhibition I had in
Sweden a good few years ago,maybe about 20 years ago.
And I remember one of thecritics, critics said that the
(17:18):
artwork was too bright,
too colorful,
but it would be well suited inthe jazz bar, where the tobacco
would tone down the color
of the painting, right?
What,
what was your take on that?Yeah, I didn't mind. I didn't, I
(17:39):
think I didn't mind. I didn'tcare. I mean, the end of the
day, if you're provoking acomment and you're getting
feedback, you're doing somethingright?
That's the way I see it.
And also, jazz is very colorful,isn't it? I mean, the cultural
riches, the cultural riches injazz history, fusions of
(18:04):
culture, the freedom that comeswith it, that that very happy
courage that came with it wouldsurely be colorful? Indeed,
indeed, indeed, yeah, It's
the world will be a very, very,very dull place if, if we had no
color, and if we had no jazz, ifwe had no music in general,
(18:31):
yeah, what kind of world wouldthat be? So I think the only way
in which I can pay homage tomusicians
the world over, irrespective ofthe discipline, actually, is to
celebrate it through painting,very colorful, very
energy filled paintings.
(18:51):
Yeah, absolutely. And youmentioned Darryl Yokely, and
just for listeners you know whomay be new to that name, Darryl
Yokley, is a critically acclaimedsaxophonist and also a composer.
And he's been recognized, he's been recognized, hasn't
(19:11):
he, you know, as hugely talentedby the New York Times, Downbeat
magazine, for example, he'sreceived numerous accolades. So
I'd love to know more about thathappy collaboration on the
Pictures at an AfricanExhibition. My understanding is
(19:33):
that human nature was the maintheme. Yes, yeah, it was. And I
think with Darryl, he's
he's an advocate forcollaborations, across
discipline, cross disciplinarycollaborations, and I've known
(19:53):
him for quite a while, and weactually met via a mutual friend
from LA.
Who
we, we met at a, I think, aChinese restaurant,
and we were just really talking.We, you know, got on quite well.
And I think I was doing severalblogs for my for my own
(20:18):
interests, collaborating withother artists and blogging. So I
featured him as he released hisfirst album,
and we just continued withhaving a wish to collaborate in
some respects. And I think theidea that he had of
(20:39):
the Pictures at an AfricanExhibition,
was something that I couldn'trefuse, really, and it was, it
was an enjoyment to work withthem and collaborate with them,
and also, yeah, to have the workshown at major, major, major
(21:01):
venues in both Washington andPhiladelphia.
And this, of course, I think, iswhat perhaps inspired your
series, Art of a Diaspora, orperhaps part of the Expressions
of a Diaspora initiative.
(21:30):
This was really embracinginfluences from Africa, the
Caribbean,
your own inspiration from fromartists and art from Africa and
the Caribbean. I wondered ifyou'd like to bring that to life
for us. Yeah, many moons ago,actually, this is something that
(21:51):
it has been an ongoing project,
which has take, taken very sortof shapes and forms, but it is
mainly fueled by collaborationsand ongoing collaborations and
building relationships with
individuals and organizationsthat equally have a
(22:12):
desire to to propagate thebenefits of having a better
understanding of
race, culture,
history, and putting it in a, ina in the perspective of
universal learning,
(22:33):
I think what
sort of think, when exactly Ithink maybe there are one or two
sort of milestones that helpedtrigger or direct the project.
And it was, I think,particularly during the time
when I was a student, and I wasliving in in South London, in
(22:54):
Brixton in London, and I gotdrawn, I don't know how, but I
got drawn into being part of
an artist collective, andsubsequently
was part of the directorship ofof the artist collective,
And we had a number ofexhibitions geared towards
(23:22):
the
the local
artists to participate, toencourage them to, rather, to
participate in
exhibitions, talks,
concerts.
And I think that from there, itsort of stemmed from the Brixton
(23:43):
artist collective to having anongoing relationship with other
artists from the diaspora,
wishing to not only expresstheir own forms of art, but to
tell a story, To change thenarrative that is commonly
associated with
black art, with black, blackhistory,
(24:08):
African or Caribbean cultures,
and our contribution to
to the world, basically, notjust to the UK, but looking at
ways in which it's not seen as
anything, to
to
(24:31):
to threaten or to to
to dismiss any otherperspective, but it's to have a
better understanding and changethe narrative of of
the African stories, the theCaribbean story through using
art forms to do that.
(24:51):
Yeah. So the that, I think, waspart of
that,
that
project. And it's, I think,since, since then, I've, you
know, continued with having moreof an international connection
with with other art groups andarts organizations,
(25:13):
not just in America, but theCaribbean, South America
and Europe,
and, of course, Africa. Yeah,that's that's very interesting,
because when you're looking atthese various expressions,
have you felt that you have beenincreasingly witnessing how art
(25:41):
responds as a therapeutic tool,exactly what you talk about in
terms of those expressions ofheritage, representation, having
voice history, the trauma ofhistory, racism, for example,
would you feel that it reallydoes foreground
(26:04):
art as a therapeutic tool?
Personally, I feel it doesanother other artists who have
who have challenged that I knowone, one artist in particular I
worked with, and he said he's anart that's never been
therapeutic for him.
My view is, well, why do it ifit's not therapeutic? I
(26:27):
think there has to be some sortof leaning that enables you to
feel that you're getting somejoy from it.
Otherwise, it sort of lacks thefuel and the the the the energy
it needs in order to to hit thatmark, in my view.
But it's not just the therapy, Ithink, with the art that I've
(26:53):
seen, not just of my own, butthe art that I I lean to in
terms of inspiration and justinterest. It's, it's, it must be
therapeutic, I think, for theartists to create.
But also, there's a message thatdoesn't always as I think you've
talked about the trauma and, youknow, the challenges that
(27:16):
perhaps, are associated withhistory, but it's also a case of
celebration too, and also usingour own forms of
art as a as an opportunity toeducate. Because, I think again,
goes back to this, the narrativeand by which we've we've grown
(27:36):
accustomed, and maybe beingconditioned, to look at art,
particularly from from artistsof color.
It is something more than purelyjust telling a story of struggle
or of trauma. It's also tellingthe story of celebration,
correcting histories, correctingnarratives, celebrating
(28:03):
iconic figures,
iconic periods of history thatis very rich, very complex, and
goes beyond purely the what'snormally associated, I think,
with with black art, or with
elements of black culture thattend to be sort of
(28:24):
showcased during, you know, Idon't know, Black History Month.
It's, it's, it's, it's a verycomplex, very comprehensive
and very significant
mark we've, we've made on, on,society
as a diaspora, and therefore allof those components, all of
(28:46):
those chapters in our history,
need to be celebrated andunderstood. And I think you
know, the artists that are
part of this diaspora
and other artists, artists ofdiasporas that have been
subjected to, perhaps
(29:07):
a misrepresentation through histhroughout history and through
through the platforms thatenable us to celebrate and
understand art. I think we allneed to do more than purely just
see it as therapeutic or see itas purely just
a narrative that doesn'tnecessarily challenge what we've
(29:30):
grown accustomed to. If thatmakes sense. I don't know
whether I'm sort of going off ona tandem, but yeah. No, it
completely makes sense, becausecertainly it's getting out of
the confines of a colonialperspective. Yeah, it's getting
out of narrow thinking. Youknow, when even within the
(29:52):
education system, certainlyunder the Tory government, black
history
was treated as optional, andeven then, that was from a
colonial perspective. It'spretty outrageous, as I say it,
but that, you know, that was thelast 14 years, you know, in this
(30:17):
series, other guests have, youknow, reiterated exactly the
same. It's a far bigger, morecomplex history. You know the
joy of freedom fighters,artists, art and culture. And I
was very lucky to be joined byProfessor Hakim Adi in the
series, who is the world'sforemost expert on the history
(30:38):
of Africa and the diaspora. Andit's very much sharing your
sentiments, this importance of,you know, how else we see things
and experience things, becauseit's part of a transformative
education. Yeah, it's about howwe understand each other better,
better. I think, I think to addto that, particularly during
(31:02):
this political climate, we're in
artists, whether or not theylike it or not,
are like
like superheroes in the sense,I'm not saying that I'm flying
around and
we have the potential
(31:25):
of being, you know, we, wedon't, I think what was, I think
it was far the Spider Man seriesof you know that with great,
great power comesresponsibility. And I think, you
know, if you're a creative youhave the power to influence. You
have the power, perhaps morethan any politician does.
(31:46):
Collectively, we have definitelygot sufficient power. But
unfortunately, obviously, thesystem doesn't enable us as
artists to feel that we havethat platform or are confident
to feel that we have the abilityto change and persuade and
influence society. That's thereason why I think art
(32:09):
is such
a complex or being an artist,and the art industry in the
sectors that we operate in arevery layered, very political,
very streamlined. There arevarious sort of mechanisms that
enable artists, some artists tosucceed and some artists to
(32:33):
fail.
Some artists to feel that they
are quality artists. Someartists, as a consequence of the
mechanisms feel that they areunable to make a living through
their art, or what is thepurpose of art, and therefore
that's more of a reason why ithas to be therapeutic, and
(32:55):
that's more of a reason why itcan't be purely just a case of
making making an income fromyour art.
It's more than that. It's artis, is life. It's not a
profession. It's it's part ofit's an embodiment of self
expression. It's part of, partof you as a human being, and we
(33:16):
all are, I think, fundamentallyartists,
because we have ways in which weexpress ourselves. It may not
necessarily be understood byeverybody, but then that's
that's just like art, just likeany other form of art, be it
music or, you know, painting oror books. Is it or any other,
you know, medium is noteverybody will understand it,
(33:39):
but so long as you do, andthat's the starting point. I can
just quickly go back to just thewhole idea of the whole diaspora
and the networking element of,
you know, as you mentioned, withthe professor, and changing the
narrative. I mean, that'sanother reason why I think it's
important to, and I have beendoing this with a number of
(33:59):
other artists than thankfully,to create more of a network with
organizations and curators fromthe diaspora across the world,
so that we do have platformsthat are both supportive
as well as
encouraging for us to feel thatwe do have platforms by which we
(34:22):
can express and exhibit work.
Because, again, that that's partof the challenge. You know,
where, where do you find thatcamaraderie? Where do you find
that support? Yes, because it's,it's a form of self empowerment
as well. And actually, goingback to what you were saying
about the idea of, you know,artists as superheroes. I mean,
(34:45):
I would certainly
agree that art, in many ways, isa superpower in that you can see
the fear that's attached to itwhen it.
It comes to politics and whenthe arts suddenly are
(35:06):
disproportionately cut, forexample, or in wartime, you
know, book burning, culturalgenocide, there's a very strong
fear attached to what this powerof the arts is, which ultimately
seems to be about having voice,and that voice, or those voices
(35:27):
being oppressed. So certainly,in the context of what's
recently happened, Trump hasbeen re-elected, and there,
there there are, you know, hugeconcerns around the arts and
arts funding. I understand thatin 2016
(35:51):
the Trump presidency wasreported on as being disastrous
for arts funding, diversity andeducation. And the examples I
read weren't just aboutdefunding federal arts, trying
to cut the National Endowment ofthe Arts, but also things like
travel bans, preventing culturalexchange that affected several
(36:16):
Muslim countries, for example,blocking entry for artists and
professionals. Because of your
experience, you know, working inNew York as well as in London, I
was very interested in howimpactful you may think that's
(36:36):
going to be. And similarly, herein the UK, you know, you've seen
our transition from almost ananti arts government, the Tories
to a new Labour government. Butno path is easy.
No, it's not.
I fear, yeah, I think it willworsen.
(36:59):
I think the and I know a numberof artists who
they're not actually UScitizens, and I know they're
fearful of their visas being, Idon't know, thrown in the bin.
And you know, them being thrownon, onto a onto the onto the
closest plane to be thrown out.
(37:22):
It is, it is a difficult periodbecause, again, I don't think
it's necessarily something thatwe have where we haven't been
before. But I think
as purses are tightened, pursestrings and tightened, and the
economy, both here and in theStates, I think will, will will
(37:43):
change in terms of how muchfunding is invested and given to
public arts. Particularly, Ithink there'll be more of a
dependence on public funders orprivate funders, rather
and initiatives that are locallyfunded, not by local government,
(38:04):
but by entrepreneurs,philanthropists, individuals,
organizations that perhaps
can, I don't know, support,support the arts, where, where
it's necessary.
The thing is, I mean, even if Iknow we've got a Labour
government here in the UK.
(38:25):
So starting with the UK, I thinkit will take a while. I think
before funding is made
available to a level where artsorganizations can feel they'll
get a slice of every an everdecreasing pie.
I think maybe in a few years ora few months time, we'll see the
(38:48):
same again in the States.
But I also think
and hope, maybe, from myexperience, that particularly in
the US,
there'll be probably more of abuffer towards
any sort of decrease in infunding, partly because, I
(39:08):
think, as a society, as aculture, and this is my personal
experience, I other people mightchallenge this is that I feel
that there's more of anentrepreneurial and cultural
spirit to support the arts
in New York and in America ingeneral. I was saying America in
(39:28):
general, but in New York and
the major cities and arts hubsthat I am aware of, that I've
experienced, that there are,there is more of a desire and an
open, open mindedness to look atways in which art can be
(39:49):
supported, that interest in thearts can be galvanized I think
here,
because my experience of the UK,
that in comparison, is is verymuch more conservative. It's not
to say that the opportunitieswon't arrive and there's not an
(40:09):
entrepreneurial spirit, and, youknow, private organizations
willing to support but I thinkthey'll be more selective, and
because perhaps
there'll be less of a budget andless of less of
less of a an onus on on artsfunding, out particularly
(40:32):
outside of the the major cities.I think that will be
something to observe, to seewhether or not that will be
there'll be any change there.
It's okay for many organizationsthat I would say it's okay,
they'll probably again argue,well, it's not okay for us,
David, but there's more likelyto have some sort of
(40:57):
curbing of
too much of a reduction in thearts funding in cities such as
London, you know,
but I fear for
arts organizations in towns, incommunities up and down the
country, outside of the majorcities. And the same applies for
(41:19):
again in the States, but Ithink, I think there will be
more of a challenge here, andI've already seen it working for
a number of arts organizationsoutside London, where
the opportunity for them toexcel and to attract further
further footfall, furthersupport for local community
(41:39):
arts,
more collaborations with schoolsand colleges, all of these
things that enable us to, as asociety, bridge our education
system with our arts andcommunity industries, our arts
industries, rather
a lot of that is, is, I don'tknow, lost in the bureaucracy
(42:02):
that will will take place as aconsequence of everyone trying
to sort of keep the crumbsthey've got.
Moreover, those thoseparticularly in in, outside of
the major cities andmetropolises of of the world.
Because, of course, funding andcommunity projects, community
(42:23):
art projects is so crucial, andI know you've been involved in a
number of very interestingexamples. One I'd like to
highlight, actually, isGroundswell, the New York based
organization. So for listeners,Groundswell brings together
youth, artists and communityorganizations to use art as a
(42:46):
tool for social change. And thisis about striving, isn't it, for
a more just and equitable world.And I'm really interested in the
achievements of Groundswell, Iunderstand that 500 murals have
been completed, maybe more now.Are these murals examples of the
(43:11):
importance of identityrepresentation, community
cohesion, all of those things,actually, that you were touching
on when we were talking aboutthe art of a diaspora? Yes,
yeah. Well, yeah,
most definitely, because Ground-swell's success and my attraction
(43:34):
to it from an artist who was aproject lead
who invited me to participate inthe Washington Heights project,
or month, one of severalWashington Heights projects,
I think, is as an, is a is aninitiative that I think would
would do well here, or we wouldbenefit here in London for
(43:56):
having
initiatives such as Groundswell,Where there's a sense of
ownership, a sense of placewithin communities where
community members,
young, young, young people, youngadults, children alike, can
(44:16):
participate in a project thatenables them to build
relationships, to build a senseof place, a sense of community,
and enables and exemplifies whatit means to be a public artist
or a public public servant inthe sense that you're supporting
(44:37):
The development andsustainability of a community.
So for example, the WashingtonHeights project that I was
working on
was
an initiative that was supportedby the New York, Transport
Authority, Mayor Bloomberg,
and
(44:59):
it was
a mural at the entrance of asubway notorious for a lot of
crime, lot of you know, attackson on on individuals,
particularly at late at night.So what the initiative was about
was really just encouraging
(45:19):
that area to be taken back from,you know, the thugs and the
muggers, and been given a newlease of life for people to feel
that they can travel, walk tothe subway comfortably, without
fear, without without worry.
And so therefore, the theinitiative was really designed
(45:39):
to to encourage those who livethere, who work there, play
there, to contribute to itslandscape.
And I think that's where it sortof strays all slightly away from
the sort of gentrification thatwe tend to hear about. You know,
areas, cities, towns, beinggiven a new sort of lease of
(46:01):
life by, you know, a lick ofpaint here and a new building
here. But it's, it's, it'swhether or not it's done in
consultant, in consultation withindividuals, groups, communities
that are, you know, livingthere. So Groundswell, I think,
is, is a proven
case study or example of
(46:22):
an organization that does thatvery well
by encouraging artists andcommunities to work together and
take pride in parts of the city.
Yeah, yeah, a force for positivesocial change. And this reminds
me, actually. A
statement this is, this is whatI what I kind of mean when I say
(46:47):
that there's more of a sort ofan entrepreneurial sort of and
community spirit that I think ismore more apparent in in America
than it is in the UK.
I think there's less sort ofbureaucracy in terms of getting
things done, or at least therewere, but that I think might
(47:08):
might change now, as Iadmittedly, but I think that
they these are things that areare more difficult to follow
through with here in in London,
and maybe for those who arecoming or listening from the
mayor's office, or
anyone who's in a significantcivil servant post, maybe able
(47:33):
to challenge or guide me andencourage me to think otherwise,
but that's something of
a conclusion that I've I've hadfor a while.
Oh, definitely lifting, liftingthe constraints of bureaucracy
and box ticking. Yeah,absolutely crucial. And, and
this does remind me what youwere just saying in your
(47:54):
previous comments of your artiststatement, because I really
like, I'll quote you where yousay "art is a peculiar luxury."
And I really like your use ofthe word peculiar, because I
think it sums it up so well,this struggle, if you like,
between culture and elitism.
(48:18):
Yeah, it's, I mean,
to some people would say thatit's, uh, why? Then there may
be, there must be other ways inwhich you can, you know, just
chill out, relax, you know, finda different hobby or interest.
You know, art sometimes is, ispeculiar in the sense that it's,
(48:39):
it's an integral part of anyartist's life. You don't
necessarily do it for the money.Well, at least I don't.
I do it because I gain pleasurefrom it.
And I think
the moment I start thinking,Well, I have to make money from
(48:59):
it.
Then I lose
a level of momentum. I lose alevel of
what, what propelled me to be anartist or to be creative?
Yeah. I choose yeah, to becreative, as opposed to being an
artist. An artist is is a label,but I think creative is the
(49:21):
action, and the action createsthe mindset and the therapeutic
release.
I don't, yeah, I think that thisis what propelled me and I'm
sure many others,
to do what they do
and make those choices ofwhether or not, you know, you
can keep the lights on, oryou're going to get that canvas,
(49:44):
or you keep the lights on, oryou're going to, you know, buy
the, you know, that music, thatthat instrument, you need. It's
a difficult one, but it'speculiar in the sense that it's,
you know, it's, it's a love,it's a love, love situation.
And.
Love hate situation. You don'thate it enough to turn it off,
to turn it down, not to do it,because it actually encourages
(50:07):
you to live. It's all part ofliving, because if you don't do
it, then what's the point?
Yeah, and also, you know, Ithink art issues of elitism
restricted access, it's rippedout, it's been ripped out of
state schools. Art schools atuniversities have literally
(50:31):
closed down. There's more,there's more in the news on that
today, and yet it should not be
created as a luxury. Itshouldn't be
elite on any level. It'speculiar, because, of course,
art belongs to everybody, and itshould be in its most in its
(50:54):
most positive sense, it shouldbe ordinary, because everybody
should have access and to thosebenefits, as you were saying,
therapeutic benefits. You know,the function of art on multiple
levels. So
perhaps this
is useful to nod actually toyour forthcoming exhibition, The
(51:16):
Art of PR. So for listeners, The Art of PR will be at the
Coningsby Gallery in London fromthe 18th of November to the 23rd
of November, and this will besign posted on David's episode
page. Peculiar perhaps David inthat the Art of PR is the first
(51:38):
exhibition to collectivelypresent the work of artists from
the PR sector or in the UK atleast.
It's, it's, it's perhaps almostanother example of elitism in
the sense that artists from theadvertising sector or design
(52:00):
seem to have more visibilitythan those from the PR sector,
but what interested me, Davidwas the art of PR and the PR of
art interests me because as aprofessional that can work in PR
and as an artist, you'veexperienced both relationships.
(52:23):
Yeah, it's, well,
obviously, I'm excited to beworking with the my fellow PRs
and artists.
And many thanks to Ade Lee, whois quite humble gentlemen. He's
actually curating it's kind oflike saying, well, that, you
know, he's kind of working hisway without necessarily knowing
(52:45):
exactly what he's doing, becauseit's the first time he's done
it, but he's doing very well interms of being able to construct
it as successfully as he has sofar touch wood. And it's, as I
say, it's a pleasure to beworking with him and and the
rest of the guys
who are exhibiting, I think thethe PR element is
(53:09):
it's,
how can I say it? It's, it's,this illustrates, for me,
several components of beingsuccessful as a creative or as
an artist,
in the sense that many creativeswill know this, that you can be
creative, but it's more thanjust the creativity you need in
(53:31):
order to be successful, topromote yourself. And so
therefore the level ofcommunication, marketing, public
relations, your engagement with
others, mediums, platforms, is
you know vital to your success.Of you know people knowing about
you and your work and yourpractice,
(53:53):
and
knowing that and wanting tocelebrate art and artists, was
the reason why,
with others, I co-founded Occhiarts and entertainment, which
was,
well it started off as a blogpost by a late friend of mine
(54:16):
in New York,
but that's encouraged me, plus,obviously working with with
other,
working in other industries andsectors within the PR
capacity, in a PR capacity.
But this, I think, justillustrates why
(54:40):
public relations and selfpromotion and marketing is
important, but it also, I think,for the industry,
illustrates that there isn't, orhasn't, historically been much
credit given to or importancegiven to
those public
relations practitioners who arejust as well positioned to
(55:04):
market and promote
the arts
as anyone else. So you're quiteright in saying that it's been
sort of
the industry, or the sector'sbeen sort of sidestepped
in terms of promoting the art.But then that again, is the
politics of the art, I guess, aswe mentioned before.
(55:27):
Yeah, and I think this is areally happy elevation that
Adrian Lee has achieved, becauseeven the venue, the Coningsby
Gallery in London, is renownedfor its dedication to
outstanding contemporaryillustration graphic art and
selected fine art. So for thoseof you in this exhibition, it's
(55:50):
a it's a lovely elevation, isn'tit. It's recognition of the
standards that you are all at.And I'll quickly flag for
listeners that I was also luckyenough to interview Tonye Ekine
in this season, season seven,who is also going to be part of
The Art of PR. So do go andlisten to his interview too. So
(56:16):
it really is an importantelevation, isn't it, that's
happening here about
who do we perceive as artists?How are they given status? How
are they elevated? And this is areally good move towards almost
pulling out a bit of industrysnobbery.
(56:38):
Yes,
yeah, it's
surprisingly and I, you know,prior to to
joining the the collective ofartists participating in this, I
hadn't really thought too hardon on on the fact that, yes,
(56:59):
the PR sector hasn't beenrepresented enough in terms of
its promotion of the arts, but Ithink, as you say, this is that
heightened, heightens the youknow, our standing, and
hopefully will be a catalyst forhaving a different sort of take
on and appreciation of how artand artists is are promoted or
(57:22):
celebrated.
So I'm really looking forward tothe show. I'm really looking
forward to working,
as I say, with a Tonye and
all the other artists who areparticipating.
It's,
yeah,
(57:42):
it's a stepping stone, I think,to greater heights. And I think
this, this will be
a marker in terms of whathappens next, in terms of how we
celebrate the arts, and how PRas a sector, is also looked at
and professionals looked upon. Idon't think it's necessarily
(58:02):
been something that's beencovered
and should be covered I feel soyeah, yeah,
yeah. So exciting times.
Yeah, it will be. And as I say,that will be flagged on your
episode page. So, David, thishour has flown by, and it brings
me to the final question I askeverybody, which is the series
(58:26):
question. I wonder what yourtake is on the question, Can art
save us?
Yes, it can, most definitely.
I'm an advocate for that, Iprobably think it's the only
thing that can
for the reasons I say, thetherapeutic benefits, the fact
(58:49):
that art and its art forms andmediums are the
the avenues for furtherengagement across society,
across different professions,
across different industries. AndI say that because the
importance is that all of thesesocieties industries
(59:12):
are basically
serving society, serving people
and our communities as as wasdefinitely illustrated with the
whole COVID period,
our wellbeing and mentalhealth was, I think, highly
(59:33):
dependent, hugely dependent on,on the arts. Some
people may not necessarily evenregister or realize that, but
you know when you're you know,on a lockdown for two, two
weeks, what are you doing inyour home? Are you listening to
music? Are you watching Netflix?You know, what form of self
(59:54):
entertainment are you, you know,
having.
And more than likely, it's dueto the creativity of someone,
and opportunity for thatcreativity to excel that you
know, society has benefited. Soyeah, it most definitely is my
(01:00:15):
answer.
Thank you, and I agree, ofcourse. But thank you so much.
And thank you David for all yourtime. Thank you for dancing
across your career, which isboth
compassionate and passionate,
compassionate in intention. Sothank you for dancing across
(01:00:39):
your career with me in this lasthour. And for listeners, thank
you for joining us, and pleasedo consider sharing this free to
listen series to help make thearts all of ours. Thank you so
much again. David, I reallyenjoyed talking to you. Thank
you. It's a pleasure Paula.
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts
(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us?
(00:49):
David Emmanuel Noel is a visualand interdisciplinary artist who
often splits his time betweenNew York and London. He
collaborates with musicians andperformers to explore race,
identity and culture, with anemphasis on public engagement.
He's interested in promoting afairer, kinder and inclusive
society, and he's worked withsocially conscious
(01:11):
organizations, including NewYork's, Groundswell community
mural project, the Powerhouse, aUK charity supporting women with
learning difficulties, theNational Network for Art in
Health and the National Societyfor the Prevention of Cruelty to
Children. He's also worked withthe Royal Institute of British
architects. And David has a veryclear interest in the social and
(01:35):
therapeutic benefits of art inpublic spaces. He clearly states
every artist should see theirart form as a therapeutic tool
above or beyond anything else.David is also a political
science graduate and holds an MAin European Studies. How the
arts can influence socioeconomic and political trends is
(01:58):
clearly on his radar. His broadinterests across the creative
industries have also culminatedin David co-founding Occhi arts
and entertainment, whichincludes consultancy and an
online magazine to showcaseartists and to promote arts
advocacy. David's artwork hasbeen featured at highly
(02:19):
prestigious venues such as thePhiladelphia Museum of Art and
the Kennedy Center Washington,DC, along with galleries in
London and festivals. His careeris undoubtedly like a rich
tapestry of work, a cloak forgood, his paintings are full of
movement and color, sensory inintent and heightened in
(02:40):
collaborations with musicianssuch as Grammy Award nominated
US band, Kloud 9 and DarrylYokley's Sound Reformation,
everything speaks out, and I'mdelighted to speak to David
today. Hello, David and welcome.Thank you for having me. Thank
you.
(03:00):
Thank you so much for making thetime David and thinking about
that introduction, introductionand the emphasis you have on art
as a therapeutic tool, I wasinterested in starting there and
to find out how that personallyevolved for you?
(03:25):
In several ways really,
I think on a personal front,
I've experienced the benefit ofthe arts having a therapeutic
release or component
on a personal front, in terms ofjust my general wellbeing,
(03:46):
mental health and well being,
I tend to feel more relaxed whenI paint. I tend to feel more
relaxed when I play music.
It tends to sort of provide youwith a sort of a mental shift,
which I'm sure most people whoappreciate any form of art, be
it the fact that they may noteven necessarily play or play
music, excuse me, or play aninstrument, or paint
(04:12):
or read it, or are authors ofbooks, but there are, you know,
mediums by which someone canfeel relaxed or, you know,
release a different form ofemotional outlet.
I think that's a sort of on amore personal front, but segue
(04:35):
into experiences I've had withfamily, particularly family who
have been unwell,
seeing the benefits of justplaying music in a room when a
relative is in a coma, and beingable to physically see the
reaction they have,
knowing that it's a pleasantreaction, it's a received
(04:58):
reaction that they
respond to music,
and I think, also liaising withorganizations and individuals
working in the health sector andseeing the benefits,
particularly for
Alzheimer and dementia patientsand how their their sensory
(05:21):
responses is heightened by the
experience of music or dance oror some form of
art that is a catalyst for theirfor their response. And I think
also on a professional front,working with a number of artists
(05:43):
and construction professionals
and designers working in thehealth service and investigating
through evidence based designand case studies, the strong
connection between
the various art forms and howthey play a part in the recovery
rates, responses to patients,and that can be again, via
(06:09):
visual arts,
stimulation of color or thestimulation of music or the
design and construction of of afit for purpose building, be it
a health center or hospital wardwhere there's, you know,
natural, natural light,
(06:29):
space, cross ventilation,natural, you know, natural
abilities for for a body and anindividual to heal
without having to always resortto, obviously, medication. So
it's, it's on a several, severallayers that I find that arts,
(06:51):
whatever the discipline, canhave a magnificent effect on and
a positive effect on people.
Yeah, and the evidence isincreasingly significant in
fields like neuro-aesthetics. Butcertainly, as you were
highlighting that relationshipwith neuroscience, how people
can still respond specificallyto art forms, it's really
(07:16):
important. And actually, for me,this really highlights, of
course, your work, your artworkin the Fusion series. I wondered
if you might like to share moreon that with the listeners,
because I think that series verymuch highlights how color can
really respond positively tomental health and wellbeing.
(07:38):
Yeah, I mean that that thatseries of work does stem from
working, particularly witharchitects and designers on
projects
that are encouraging
hospitals and NHS Trusts andcommissioners of within the
(08:02):
health service to look closelyat the color coordination of
their physical spaces and howcolor can have a major effect on
an
individual's recovery or senseof place or sense of being.
And I think the the Fusionseries is my attempt to maybe
(08:26):
see how strong and powerfulcolors can can accentuate a
sense of calm, or maybe theopposite, aggravate and cause
different types of emotionsbased on their sense of
what those colors signify. Andit is a subjective thing in
(08:49):
terms of, you know, the use ofcolor. And one person may, may
see
a very,
very blue painting, whichwhatever the medium or
medium is used. But if it's aparticular color that dominates
that that particular image, itmight have a, you know, an
(09:14):
adverse effect
to
to explain, I think, a number ofcolors we tend to associate as,
maybe it's a society, thingsthat are good, things that are,
you know, calming, things thatare neutral.
Everyone's palette is different,but at the same time, I suppose,
(09:34):
depending on, you know, oursocietal and environmental
situation, we may associatecolors in different ways.
So I think the fusion is more ofa case of just exploring how I
associate color and giving theaudience an opportunity, viewers
the opportunity to see mypaintings and maybe come to
(09:57):
their own conclusion as towhether or not it.
It provokes a particularthought, whether or not it's
calming, whether or not it's theexact opposite, but yeah, it's
really to question and encouragediscussion in terms of how we
use color and what colors mean.
(10:17):
Yeah, because it's it'scertainly an important area for
exploration, and perhaps evenincluding health professionals
themselves, who of course, maynot necessarily be invested in
arts experiences themselves. SoI wondered if, if you thought we
could all be more curiousperhaps, about how we experience
(10:42):
the arts from that sensory pointof view. Do you think that can
still be better understood? Mostdefinitely,
and I think again, this probablyunderlines the whole importance
of the arts and how theinterplay and interchange
between art forms is is vitallyimportant to our to our growth
(11:06):
and development of society,
our understanding of whatsociety represents,
how
professionals, irrespective oftheir
discipline, can collaborate withwith artists
to enhance and to better theservices and the delivery of, in
(11:32):
this case, patient care,
and looking at ways in which,again, that sort of cross
fertilization of ideas,
practitioners and nonpractitioners alike can
contribute to
healing environments, I like tosay,
and as we, as we witness, as webecome more exposed to
(11:58):
various disciplines andprofessions working together to
enhance our our lifestyles, ourwell being. Not all of them are
from a medical background, butthere's a fusion across
fertilization of ideas based onour respective experiences and
(12:18):
based on the understanding thatcollaboratively we can explore,
probably more holistic solutionsto our health, health care
challenges. And it doesn'tnecessarily mean
going into a hospital or goinginto a
(12:39):
health building, but it can meanagain, that home care, that
community care, and looking atways in which you know an
artist, a local artist or localmusician,
can can assist in a way in whichtheir respective professions or
practices are or have been seenin the past in isolation, but
(13:04):
not seen as a component or witha benefit, a wider benefit, to
an aging community.
Yeah, absolutely, because thiscould be really transformative,
couldn't it, whether, as youwere saying, it's within a
healthcare setting or communitycare and home care. And of
(13:25):
course, music is hugelytherapeutic, and I know this is
really significant in terms ofyour work and your
collaborations. I wondered ifyou could tell us more about the
art of music series. I know jazzfeatures. I really love the it's
(13:49):
like looking at energy. When Ilook at some of the paintings in
that series, there's a real,it's almost, it's almost like a
speed. And for me,
it's visually looking at thesound of jazz, if that makes
sense. Yes, yeah, I like that. Imight use that.
(14:11):
You're welcome.
That'll be my next thing.
You're right. I think, well,again, it's the energy that I
find
with music. And if I can'tremember it was, I
(14:33):
can't remember it was. But therewas an artist, musician who said
that he sees music through incolor,
through colors.
And I guess that's that resonatewith me, because I kind of see
music and color too, and the thejazz series
(14:53):
is maybe an offshoot of what aproject I was working with an
artist.
And friend of mine, DarrylYokely, in New York
for his second album,
and it comprised of 13
(15:14):
tracks.
And this was complementing thePictures at an African
exhibition I understand? Isthis the collaboration? Yeah,
okay, yeah. So the paintings,those aren't, these aren't the
paintings that the art, the Artof Music, but it stemmed from
(15:35):
that. It was a continuation of
following a theme of artinfluenced by music,
I think, with the art of jazzthemed, it was also
provoked by
a couple of visits to a fewJazz, Jazz, Jazz clubs, and
(16:01):
noticing, as you do when you goto these clubs, there are
photographs, black and white,photographs, particularly of
famous jazz icons and
contemporary artists. And I feltthat it's always great to see
those photographs, but I alwaysfeel that there should also be
some form of, I don't know,unique painting, so I suppose at
(16:26):
some stage, hopefully fingerscrossed, maybe the art of jazz
will be in a jazz bar that
is quite welcoming of originalpaintings. It's funny, I'd be
fantastic. It would be, it wouldbe great, but I painted a
painting of a jazz female jazzsinger was based on Ella
(16:53):
Fitzgerald, but nothing doesn'tlook like her, but it she was
the
the the idea behind it. And I itwas an exhibition I had in
Sweden a good few years ago,maybe about 20 years ago.
And I remember one of thecritics, critics said that the
(17:18):
artwork was too bright,
too colorful,
but it would be well suited inthe jazz bar, where the tobacco
would tone down the color
of the painting, right?
What,
what was your take on that?Yeah, I didn't mind. I didn't, I
(17:39):
think I didn't mind. I didn'tcare. I mean, the end of the
day, if you're provoking acomment and you're getting
feedback, you're doing somethingright?
That's the way I see it.
And also, jazz is very colorful,isn't it? I mean, the cultural
riches, the cultural riches injazz history, fusions of
(18:04):
culture, the freedom that comeswith it, that that very happy
courage that came with it wouldsurely be colorful? Indeed,
indeed, indeed, yeah, It's
the world will be a very, very,very dull place if, if we had no
color, and if we had no jazz, ifwe had no music in general,
(18:31):
yeah, what kind of world wouldthat be? So I think the only way
in which I can pay homage tomusicians
the world over, irrespective ofthe discipline, actually, is to
celebrate it through painting,very colorful, very
energy filled paintings.
(18:51):
Yeah, absolutely. And youmentioned Darryl Yokely, and
just for listeners you know whomay be new to that name, Darryl
Yokley, is a critically acclaimedsaxophonist and also a composer.
And he's been recognized, he's been recognized, hasn't
(19:11):
he, you know, as hugely talentedby the New York Times, Downbeat
magazine, for example, he'sreceived numerous accolades. So
I'd love to know more about thathappy collaboration on the
Pictures at an AfricanExhibition. My understanding is
(19:33):
that human nature was the maintheme. Yes, yeah, it was. And I
think with Darryl, he's
he's an advocate forcollaborations, across
discipline, cross disciplinarycollaborations, and I've known
(19:53):
him for quite a while, and weactually met via a mutual friend
from LA.
Who
we, we met at a, I think, aChinese restaurant,
and we were just really talking.We, you know, got on quite well.
And I think I was doing severalblogs for my for my own
(20:18):
interests, collaborating withother artists and blogging. So I
featured him as he released hisfirst album,
and we just continued withhaving a wish to collaborate in
some respects. And I think theidea that he had of
(20:39):
the Pictures at an AfricanExhibition,
was something that I couldn'trefuse, really, and it was, it
was an enjoyment to work withthem and collaborate with them,
and also, yeah, to have the workshown at major, major, major
(21:01):
venues in both Washington andPhiladelphia.
And this, of course, I think, iswhat perhaps inspired your
series, Art of a Diaspora, orperhaps part of the Expressions
of a Diaspora initiative.
(21:30):
This was really embracinginfluences from Africa, the
Caribbean,
your own inspiration from fromartists and art from Africa and
the Caribbean. I wondered ifyou'd like to bring that to life
for us. Yeah, many moons ago,actually, this is something that
(21:51):
it has been an ongoing project,
which has take, taken very sortof shapes and forms, but it is
mainly fueled by collaborationsand ongoing collaborations and
building relationships with
individuals and organizationsthat equally have a
(22:12):
desire to to propagate thebenefits of having a better
understanding of
race, culture,
history, and putting it in a, ina in the perspective of
universal learning,
(22:33):
I think what
sort of think, when exactly Ithink maybe there are one or two
sort of milestones that helpedtrigger or direct the project.
And it was, I think,particularly during the time
when I was a student, and I wasliving in in South London, in
(22:54):
Brixton in London, and I gotdrawn, I don't know how, but I
got drawn into being part of
an artist collective, andsubsequently
was part of the directorship ofof the artist collective,
And we had a number ofexhibitions geared towards
(23:22):
the
the local
artists to participate, toencourage them to, rather, to
participate in
exhibitions, talks,
concerts.
And I think that from there, itsort of stemmed from the Brixton
(23:43):
artist collective to having anongoing relationship with other
artists from the diaspora,
wishing to not only expresstheir own forms of art, but to
tell a story, To change thenarrative that is commonly
associated with
black art, with black, blackhistory,
(24:08):
African or Caribbean cultures,
and our contribution to
to the world, basically, notjust to the UK, but looking at
ways in which it's not seen as
anything, to
to
(24:31):
to threaten or to to
to dismiss any otherperspective, but it's to have a
better understanding and changethe narrative of of
the African stories, the theCaribbean story through using
art forms to do that.
(24:51):
Yeah. So the that, I think, waspart of
that,
that
project. And it's, I think,since, since then, I've, you
know, continued with having moreof an international connection
with with other art groups andarts organizations,
(25:13):
not just in America, but theCaribbean, South America
and Europe,
and, of course, Africa. Yeah,that's that's very interesting,
because when you're looking atthese various expressions,
have you felt that you have beenincreasingly witnessing how art
(25:41):
responds as a therapeutic tool,exactly what you talk about in
terms of those expressions ofheritage, representation, having
voice history, the trauma ofhistory, racism, for example,
would you feel that it reallydoes foreground
(26:04):
art as a therapeutic tool?
Personally, I feel it doesanother other artists who have
who have challenged that I knowone, one artist in particular I
worked with, and he said he's anart that's never been
therapeutic for him.
My view is, well, why do it ifit's not therapeutic? I
(26:27):
think there has to be some sortof leaning that enables you to
feel that you're getting somejoy from it.
Otherwise, it sort of lacks thefuel and the the the the energy
it needs in order to to hit thatmark, in my view.
But it's not just the therapy, Ithink, with the art that I've
(26:53):
seen, not just of my own, butthe art that I I lean to in
terms of inspiration and justinterest. It's, it's, it must be
therapeutic, I think, for theartists to create.
But also, there's a message thatdoesn't always as I think you've
talked about the trauma and, youknow, the challenges that
(27:16):
perhaps, are associated withhistory, but it's also a case of
celebration too, and also usingour own forms of
art as a as an opportunity toeducate. Because, I think again,
goes back to this, the narrativeand by which we've we've grown
(27:36):
accustomed, and maybe beingconditioned, to look at art,
particularly from from artistsof color.
It is something more than purelyjust telling a story of struggle
or of trauma. It's also tellingthe story of celebration,
correcting histories, correctingnarratives, celebrating
(28:03):
iconic figures,
iconic periods of history thatis very rich, very complex, and
goes beyond purely the what'snormally associated, I think,
with with black art, or with
elements of black culture thattend to be sort of
(28:24):
showcased during, you know, Idon't know, Black History Month.
It's, it's, it's, it's a verycomplex, very comprehensive
and very significant
mark we've, we've made on, on,society
as a diaspora, and therefore allof those components, all of
(28:46):
those chapters in our history,
need to be celebrated andunderstood. And I think you
know, the artists that are
part of this diaspora
and other artists, artists ofdiasporas that have been
subjected to, perhaps
(29:07):
a misrepresentation through histhroughout history and through
through the platforms thatenable us to celebrate and
understand art. I think we allneed to do more than purely just
see it as therapeutic or see itas purely just
a narrative that doesn'tnecessarily challenge what we've
(29:30):
grown accustomed to. If thatmakes sense. I don't know
whether I'm sort of going off ona tandem, but yeah. No, it
completely makes sense, becausecertainly it's getting out of
the confines of a colonialperspective. Yeah, it's getting
out of narrow thinking. Youknow, when even within the
(29:52):
education system, certainlyunder the Tory government, black
history
was treated as optional, andeven then, that was from a
colonial perspective. It'spretty outrageous, as I say it,
but that, you know, that was thelast 14 years, you know, in this
(30:17):
series, other guests have, youknow, reiterated exactly the
same. It's a far bigger, morecomplex history. You know the
joy of freedom fighters,artists, art and culture. And I
was very lucky to be joined byProfessor Hakim Adi in the
series, who is the world'sforemost expert on the history
(30:38):
of Africa and the diaspora. Andit's very much sharing your
sentiments, this importance of,you know, how else we see things
and experience things, becauseit's part of a transformative
education. Yeah, it's about howwe understand each other better,
better. I think, I think to addto that, particularly during
(31:02):
this political climate, we're in
artists, whether or not theylike it or not,
are like
like superheroes in the sense,I'm not saying that I'm flying
around and
we have the potential
(31:25):
of being, you know, we, wedon't, I think what was, I think
it was far the Spider Man seriesof you know that with great,
great power comesresponsibility. And I think, you
know, if you're a creative youhave the power to influence. You
have the power, perhaps morethan any politician does.
(31:46):
Collectively, we have definitelygot sufficient power. But
unfortunately, obviously, thesystem doesn't enable us as
artists to feel that we havethat platform or are confident
to feel that we have the abilityto change and persuade and
influence society. That's thereason why I think art
(32:09):
is such
a complex or being an artist,and the art industry in the
sectors that we operate in arevery layered, very political,
very streamlined. There arevarious sort of mechanisms that
enable artists, some artists tosucceed and some artists to
(32:33):
fail.
Some artists to feel that they
are quality artists. Someartists, as a consequence of the
mechanisms feel that they areunable to make a living through
their art, or what is thepurpose of art, and therefore
that's more of a reason why ithas to be therapeutic, and
(32:55):
that's more of a reason why itcan't be purely just a case of
making making an income fromyour art.
It's more than that. It's artis, is life. It's not a
profession. It's it's part ofit's an embodiment of self
expression. It's part of, partof you as a human being, and we
(33:16):
all are, I think, fundamentallyartists,
because we have ways in which weexpress ourselves. It may not
necessarily be understood byeverybody, but then that's
that's just like art, just likeany other form of art, be it
music or, you know, painting oror books. Is it or any other,
you know, medium is noteverybody will understand it,
(33:39):
but so long as you do, andthat's the starting point. I can
just quickly go back to just thewhole idea of the whole diaspora
and the networking element of,
you know, as you mentioned, withthe professor, and changing the
narrative. I mean, that'sanother reason why I think it's
important to, and I have beendoing this with a number of
(33:59):
other artists than thankfully,to create more of a network with
organizations and curators fromthe diaspora across the world,
so that we do have platformsthat are both supportive
as well as
encouraging for us to feel thatwe do have platforms by which we
(34:22):
can express and exhibit work.
Because, again, that that's partof the challenge. You know,
where, where do you find thatcamaraderie? Where do you find
that support? Yes, because it's,it's a form of self empowerment
as well. And actually, goingback to what you were saying
about the idea of, you know,artists as superheroes. I mean,
(34:45):
I would certainly
agree that art, in many ways, isa superpower in that you can see
the fear that's attached to itwhen it.
It comes to politics and whenthe arts suddenly are
(35:06):
disproportionately cut, forexample, or in wartime, you
know, book burning, culturalgenocide, there's a very strong
fear attached to what this powerof the arts is, which ultimately
seems to be about having voice,and that voice, or those voices
(35:27):
being oppressed. So certainly,in the context of what's
recently happened, Trump hasbeen re-elected, and there,
there there are, you know, hugeconcerns around the arts and
arts funding. I understand thatin 2016
(35:51):
the Trump presidency wasreported on as being disastrous
for arts funding, diversity andeducation. And the examples I
read weren't just aboutdefunding federal arts, trying
to cut the National Endowment ofthe Arts, but also things like
travel bans, preventing culturalexchange that affected several
(36:16):
Muslim countries, for example,blocking entry for artists and
professionals. Because of your
experience, you know, working inNew York as well as in London, I
was very interested in howimpactful you may think that's
(36:36):
going to be. And similarly, herein the UK, you know, you've seen
our transition from almost ananti arts government, the Tories
to a new Labour government. Butno path is easy.
No, it's not.
I fear, yeah, I think it willworsen.
(36:59):
I think the and I know a numberof artists who
they're not actually UScitizens, and I know they're
fearful of their visas being, Idon't know, thrown in the bin.
And you know, them being thrownon, onto a onto the onto the
closest plane to be thrown out.
(37:22):
It is, it is a difficult periodbecause, again, I don't think
it's necessarily something thatwe have where we haven't been
before. But I think
as purses are tightened, pursestrings and tightened, and the
economy, both here and in theStates, I think will, will will
(37:43):
change in terms of how muchfunding is invested and given to
public arts. Particularly, Ithink there'll be more of a
dependence on public funders orprivate funders, rather
and initiatives that are locallyfunded, not by local government,
(38:04):
but by entrepreneurs,philanthropists, individuals,
organizations that perhaps
can, I don't know, support,support the arts, where, where
it's necessary.
The thing is, I mean, even if Iknow we've got a Labour
government here in the UK.
(38:25):
So starting with the UK, I thinkit will take a while. I think
before funding is made
available to a level where artsorganizations can feel they'll
get a slice of every an everdecreasing pie.
I think maybe in a few years ora few months time, we'll see the
(38:48):
same again in the States.
But I also think
and hope, maybe, from myexperience, that particularly in
the US,
there'll be probably more of abuffer towards
any sort of decrease in infunding, partly because, I
(39:08):
think, as a society, as aculture, and this is my personal
experience, I other people mightchallenge this is that I feel
that there's more of anentrepreneurial and cultural
spirit to support the arts
in New York and in America ingeneral. I was saying America in
(39:28):
general, but in New York and
the major cities and arts hubsthat I am aware of, that I've
experienced, that there are,there is more of a desire and an
open, open mindedness to look atways in which art can be
(39:49):
supported, that interest in thearts can be galvanized I think
here,
because my experience of the UK,
that in comparison, is is verymuch more conservative. It's not
to say that the opportunitieswon't arrive and there's not an
(40:09):
entrepreneurial spirit, and, youknow, private organizations
willing to support but I thinkthey'll be more selective, and
because perhaps
there'll be less of a budget andless of less of
less of a an onus on on artsfunding, out particularly
(40:32):
outside of the the major cities.I think that will be
something to observe, to seewhether or not that will be
there'll be any change there.
It's okay for many organizationsthat I would say it's okay,
they'll probably again argue,well, it's not okay for us,
David, but there's more likelyto have some sort of
(40:57):
curbing of
too much of a reduction in thearts funding in cities such as
London, you know,
but I fear for
arts organizations in towns, incommunities up and down the
country, outside of the majorcities. And the same applies for
(41:19):
again in the States, but Ithink, I think there will be
more of a challenge here, andI've already seen it working for
a number of arts organizationsoutside London, where
the opportunity for them toexcel and to attract further
further footfall, furthersupport for local community
(41:39):
arts,
more collaborations with schoolsand colleges, all of these
things that enable us to, as asociety, bridge our education
system with our arts andcommunity industries, our arts
industries, rather
a lot of that is, is, I don'tknow, lost in the bureaucracy
(42:02):
that will will take place as aconsequence of everyone trying
to sort of keep the crumbsthey've got.
Moreover, those thoseparticularly in in, outside of
the major cities andmetropolises of of the world.
Because, of course, funding andcommunity projects, community
(42:23):
art projects is so crucial, andI know you've been involved in a
number of very interestingexamples. One I'd like to
highlight, actually, isGroundswell, the New York based
organization. So for listeners,Groundswell brings together
youth, artists and communityorganizations to use art as a
(42:46):
tool for social change. And thisis about striving, isn't it, for
a more just and equitable world.And I'm really interested in the
achievements of Groundswell, Iunderstand that 500 murals have
been completed, maybe more now.Are these murals examples of the
(43:11):
importance of identityrepresentation, community
cohesion, all of those things,actually, that you were touching
on when we were talking aboutthe art of a diaspora? Yes,
yeah. Well, yeah,
most definitely, because Ground-swell's success and my attraction
(43:34):
to it from an artist who was aproject lead
who invited me to participate inthe Washington Heights project,
or month, one of severalWashington Heights projects,
I think, is as an, is a is aninitiative that I think would
would do well here, or we wouldbenefit here in London for
(43:56):
having
initiatives such as Groundswell,Where there's a sense of
ownership, a sense of placewithin communities where
community members,
young, young, young people, youngadults, children alike, can
(44:16):
participate in a project thatenables them to build
relationships, to build a senseof place, a sense of community,
and enables and exemplifies whatit means to be a public artist
or a public public servant inthe sense that you're supporting
(44:37):
The development andsustainability of a community.
So for example, the WashingtonHeights project that I was
working on
was
an initiative that was supportedby the New York, Transport
Authority, Mayor Bloomberg,
and
(44:59):
it was
a mural at the entrance of asubway notorious for a lot of
crime, lot of you know, attackson on on individuals,
particularly at late at night.So what the initiative was about
was really just encouraging
(45:19):
that area to be taken back from,you know, the thugs and the
muggers, and been given a newlease of life for people to feel
that they can travel, walk tothe subway comfortably, without
fear, without without worry.
And so therefore, the theinitiative was really designed
(45:39):
to to encourage those who livethere, who work there, play
there, to contribute to itslandscape.
And I think that's where it sortof strays all slightly away from
the sort of gentrification thatwe tend to hear about. You know,
areas, cities, towns, beinggiven a new sort of lease of
(46:01):
life by, you know, a lick ofpaint here and a new building
here. But it's, it's, it'swhether or not it's done in
consultant, in consultation withindividuals, groups, communities
that are, you know, livingthere. So Groundswell, I think,
is, is a proven
case study or example of
(46:22):
an organization that does thatvery well
by encouraging artists andcommunities to work together and
take pride in parts of the city.
Yeah, yeah, a force for positivesocial change. And this reminds
me, actually. A
statement this is, this is whatI what I kind of mean when I say
(46:47):
that there's more of a sort ofan entrepreneurial sort of and
community spirit that I think ismore more apparent in in America
than it is in the UK.
I think there's less sort ofbureaucracy in terms of getting
things done, or at least therewere, but that I think might
(47:08):
might change now, as Iadmittedly, but I think that
they these are things that areare more difficult to follow
through with here in in London,
and maybe for those who arecoming or listening from the
mayor's office, or
anyone who's in a significantcivil servant post, maybe able
(47:33):
to challenge or guide me andencourage me to think otherwise,
but that's something of
a conclusion that I've I've hadfor a while.
Oh, definitely lifting, liftingthe constraints of bureaucracy
and box ticking. Yeah,absolutely crucial. And, and
this does remind me what youwere just saying in your
(47:54):
previous comments of your artiststatement, because I really
like, I'll quote you where yousay "art is a peculiar luxury."
And I really like your use ofthe word peculiar, because I
think it sums it up so well,this struggle, if you like,
between culture and elitism.
(48:18):
Yeah, it's, I mean,
to some people would say thatit's, uh, why? Then there may
be, there must be other ways inwhich you can, you know, just
chill out, relax, you know, finda different hobby or interest.
You know, art sometimes is, ispeculiar in the sense that it's,
(48:39):
it's an integral part of anyartist's life. You don't
necessarily do it for the money.Well, at least I don't.
I do it because I gain pleasurefrom it.
And I think
the moment I start thinking,Well, I have to make money from
(48:59):
it.
Then I lose
a level of momentum. I lose alevel of
what, what propelled me to be anartist or to be creative?
Yeah. I choose yeah, to becreative, as opposed to being an
artist. An artist is is a label,but I think creative is the
(49:21):
action, and the action createsthe mindset and the therapeutic
release.
I don't, yeah, I think that thisis what propelled me and I'm
sure many others,
to do what they do
and make those choices ofwhether or not, you know, you
can keep the lights on, oryou're going to get that canvas,
(49:44):
or you keep the lights on, oryou're going to, you know, buy
the, you know, that music, thatthat instrument, you need. It's
a difficult one, but it'speculiar in the sense that it's,
you know, it's, it's a love,it's a love, love situation.
And.
Love hate situation. You don'thate it enough to turn it off,
to turn it down, not to do it,because it actually encourages
(50:07):
you to live. It's all part ofliving, because if you don't do
it, then what's the point?
Yeah, and also, you know, Ithink art issues of elitism
restricted access, it's rippedout, it's been ripped out of
state schools. Art schools atuniversities have literally
(50:31):
closed down. There's more,there's more in the news on that
today, and yet it should not be
created as a luxury. Itshouldn't be
elite on any level. It'speculiar, because, of course,
art belongs to everybody, and itshould be in its most in its
(50:54):
most positive sense, it shouldbe ordinary, because everybody
should have access and to thosebenefits, as you were saying,
therapeutic benefits. You know,the function of art on multiple
levels. So
perhaps this
is useful to nod actually toyour forthcoming exhibition, The
(51:16):
Art of PR. So for listeners, The Art of PR will be at the
Coningsby Gallery in London fromthe 18th of November to the 23rd
of November, and this will besign posted on David's episode
page. Peculiar perhaps David inthat the Art of PR is the first
(51:38):
exhibition to collectivelypresent the work of artists from
the PR sector or in the UK atleast.
It's, it's, it's perhaps almostanother example of elitism in
the sense that artists from theadvertising sector or design
(52:00):
seem to have more visibilitythan those from the PR sector,
but what interested me, Davidwas the art of PR and the PR of
art interests me because as aprofessional that can work in PR
and as an artist, you'veexperienced both relationships.
(52:23):
Yeah, it's, well,
obviously, I'm excited to beworking with the my fellow PRs
and artists.
And many thanks to Ade Lee, whois quite humble gentlemen. He's
actually curating it's kind oflike saying, well, that, you
know, he's kind of working hisway without necessarily knowing
(52:45):
exactly what he's doing, becauseit's the first time he's done
it, but he's doing very well interms of being able to construct
it as successfully as he has sofar touch wood. And it's, as I
say, it's a pleasure to beworking with him and and the
rest of the guys
who are exhibiting, I think thethe PR element is
(53:09):
it's,
how can I say it? It's, it's,this illustrates, for me,
several components of beingsuccessful as a creative or as
an artist,
in the sense that many creativeswill know this, that you can be
creative, but it's more thanjust the creativity you need in
(53:31):
order to be successful, topromote yourself. And so
therefore the level ofcommunication, marketing, public
relations, your engagement with
others, mediums, platforms, is
you know vital to your success.Of you know people knowing about
you and your work and yourpractice,
(53:53):
and
knowing that and wanting tocelebrate art and artists, was
the reason why,
with others, I co-founded Occhiarts and entertainment, which
was,
well it started off as a blogpost by a late friend of mine
(54:16):
in New York,
but that's encouraged me, plus,obviously working with with
other,
working in other industries andsectors within the PR
capacity, in a PR capacity.
But this, I think, justillustrates why
(54:40):
public relations and selfpromotion and marketing is
important, but it also, I think,for the industry,
illustrates that there isn't, orhasn't, historically been much
credit given to or importancegiven to
those public
relations practitioners who arejust as well positioned to
(55:04):
market and promote
the arts
as anyone else. So you're quiteright in saying that it's been
sort of
the industry, or the sector'sbeen sort of sidestepped
in terms of promoting the art.But then that again, is the
politics of the art, I guess, aswe mentioned before.
(55:27):
Yeah, and I think this is areally happy elevation that
Adrian Lee has achieved, becauseeven the venue, the Coningsby
Gallery in London, is renownedfor its dedication to
outstanding contemporaryillustration graphic art and
selected fine art. So for thoseof you in this exhibition, it's
(55:50):
a it's a lovely elevation, isn'tit. It's recognition of the
standards that you are all at.And I'll quickly flag for
listeners that I was also luckyenough to interview Tonye Ekine
in this season, season seven,who is also going to be part of
The Art of PR. So do go andlisten to his interview too. So
(56:16):
it really is an importantelevation, isn't it, that's
happening here about
who do we perceive as artists?How are they given status? How
are they elevated? And this is areally good move towards almost
pulling out a bit of industrysnobbery.
(56:38):
Yes,
yeah, it's
surprisingly and I, you know,prior to to
joining the the collective ofartists participating in this, I
hadn't really thought too hardon on on the fact that, yes,
(56:59):
the PR sector hasn't beenrepresented enough in terms of
its promotion of the arts, but Ithink, as you say, this is that
heightened, heightens the youknow, our standing, and
hopefully will be a catalyst forhaving a different sort of take
on and appreciation of how artand artists is are promoted or
(57:22):
celebrated.
So I'm really looking forward tothe show. I'm really looking
forward to working,
as I say, with a Tonye and
all the other artists who areparticipating.
It's,
yeah,
(57:42):
it's a stepping stone, I think,to greater heights. And I think
this, this will be
a marker in terms of whathappens next, in terms of how we
celebrate the arts, and how PRas a sector, is also looked at
and professionals looked upon. Idon't think it's necessarily
(58:02):
been something that's beencovered
and should be covered I feel soyeah, yeah,
yeah. So exciting times.
Yeah, it will be. And as I say,that will be flagged on your
episode page. So, David, thishour has flown by, and it brings
me to the final question I askeverybody, which is the series
(58:26):
question. I wonder what yourtake is on the question, Can art
save us?
Yes, it can, most definitely.
I'm an advocate for that, Iprobably think it's the only
thing that can
for the reasons I say, thetherapeutic benefits, the fact
(58:49):
that art and its art forms andmediums are the
the avenues for furtherengagement across society,
across different professions,
across different industries. AndI say that because the
importance is that all of thesesocieties industries
(59:12):
are basically
serving society, serving people
and our communities as as wasdefinitely illustrated with the
whole COVID period,
our wellbeing and mentalhealth was, I think, highly
(59:33):
dependent, hugely dependent on,on the arts. Some
people may not necessarily evenregister or realize that, but
you know when you're you know,on a lockdown for two, two
weeks, what are you doing inyour home? Are you listening to
music? Are you watching Netflix?You know, what form of self
(59:54):
entertainment are you, you know,
having.
And more than likely, it's dueto the creativity of someone,
and opportunity for thatcreativity to excel that you
know, society has benefited. Soyeah, it most definitely is my
(01:00:15):
answer.
Thank you, and I agree, ofcourse. But thank you so much.
And thank you David for all yourtime. Thank you for dancing
across your career, which isboth
compassionate and passionate,
compassionate in intention. Sothank you for dancing across
(01:00:39):
your career with me in this lasthour. And for listeners, thank
you for joining us, and pleasedo consider sharing this free to
listen series to help make thearts all of ours. Thank you so
much again. David, I reallyenjoyed talking to you. Thank
you. It's a pleasure Paula.
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