March 13, 2024 • 64 mins
Do you like dancing? Do we dance enough? Or maybe the question is, why don’t we dance more? Dr. Angela Pickard is the UK’s first Professor of Dance Education. She has worked with talented dancers and choreographers across a multitude of theatres and sites in the UK and internationally. From toddlers to The Royal Ballet School, Angela has a wealth of knowledge and she is now the Director of the Sidney De Haan Research Centre for Arts and Health, here in the UK. The Centre makes an internationally leading contribution to critical scholarship, research, and practice in the field of arts and health. She is interested in the relationship between dance and psychological, social and artistic outcomes and responding to barriers of exclusion. Who is and isn’t included in dance, even in contemporary forms that we might assume are much more accessible? Who participates in dance is problematic, there’s a ring of elitism around it. Different generations may have memories of the traditional Friday night dance at the village hall, the school disco, the glamorous prom, the explosion of street-dance or maybe at weddings only. Have you ever been to a 'Daybreaker,' a morning dance rave to feel energized and well? Are you a fan of the hit TV series, Strictly Come Dancing? Whatever is happening, it seems our relationship with dance is fragmented, yet it has brought us joy, forms of protest and phenomenal social change. So, let’s get curious about dance and who better to ask than the UK’s first Professor of Dance Education?
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all interviews in this series. Read only, text versions of every interview, news, reviews and your host are here: www.canartsaveus.com
Discover Dr. Angela Pickard, Director of the Sydney de Haan Centre www.canterbury.ac.uk/research/research-centres/sidney-de-haan-research-centre-for-arts-and-health
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? Do
(00:50):
you like dancing? Do we danceenough? Or maybe the question
is, why don't we dance more? Myguest today is not only an
accomplished dancer andchoreographer, but the UK is
first professor of DanceEducation Dr. Angela Pickard.
Angela has worked with talenteddancers and choreographers
across a multitude of theatersand sites, both in the UK and
(01:14):
internationally. From toddlersto the Royal Ballet School
Angela has a wealth ofknowledge. And she is currently
the director of the Sydney toHan Research Center for Arts and
Health here in the UK. She isinterested in the relationship
between dance and psychological,social and artistic outcomes.
She's particularly interested inresponding to exclusion who is
(01:37):
and isn't included in dance,even in contemporary forms that
we might assume are much moreaccessible. who participates in
dance is problematic. There's aring of elitism around it. Yet
dance is recorded in some of theearliest cave paintings so
wasn't it always part of who weall are? Different generations
(02:01):
may have memories of thetraditional Friday night dance
at the village hall, the schooldisco the glamorous prom, the
explosion of street dance, ormaybe just at weddings? Have
you ever been to a morning dancerave known as a Daybreaker? To
feel energized and well? Areyou a fan of the hit TV series
(02:21):
Strictly Come Dancing? Whateveris happening, it seems our
relationship with dance isfragmented. Yet it has brought
joy, protest and phenomenalsocial change through the ages.
So let's get curious aboutdance. And who better to ask
than the UK is first professorof dance education. Hello,
(02:42):
Angela. Thank you for joiningme.
Hello, what a wonderfulintroduction. Thank you so much.
Oh, you're very welcome. It'sit's such a pleasure to be able
to explore different subjectsand the arts through my
guests. It's just such a lovelyopportunity to keep learning.
And I wondered actually, Angelaif the best starting point was
(03:07):
to really understand how youfirst engaged with dance? Maybe
there's a first memory or thefirst time you were exposed to
dance, but how come you became adancer?
Hmm. So I think it probably wasbecause I was a very active
child. I wasn't able to keepstill. And my dad, in fact used
(03:32):
to call me Squiggle I just couldnot keep still. And that was
really why and how I think I gotinto dance. Because it was about
learning how to be still ratherthan movement, initially, so I
went along to ballet. And inthat particular technique,
(03:54):
there's, you know, a disciplinein terms of understanding
stillness, as well as movement.So, and I think I loved that
discipline in some ways, becauseI was able to control and calm
myself perhaps for you know,times when I hadn't really been
able to do that before because Ifound stillness, very, very
(04:15):
challenging. I have to say even nowI find stillness quite challenging.
But yeah, so I think that'sprobably how I began. That's
fascinating
to immediately consider dance asequally being about stillness as
it is about movement. That'sabsolutely fascinating. So I
suppose that may feed into thosewider benefits of not just
(04:40):
physical training, but perhapsmental training as well. Would
you say that's fair to say?Absolutely.
So I think it depends what kindof dance you do, but certainly
in some of the sort of, youknow, more technical practices,
so, you know, let's takesomething like ballet. There's a
codified movement, you know, setup from movements, it's about
(05:01):
200 steps to learn in classicalballet. So you learn a technical
vocabulary, sort of along thatyou know, the sort of style of
what you're doing. You learn tofocus, discipline, calm,
breathe. And it really focusesthe mind and body. So you know,
(05:21):
that can be really helpful forpeople and certainly was helpful
for me as a way in. But in termsof the broader dance aspects,
dance is very holistic. So weuse body, body and mind
connecting. So you're thinkingall the time you're dancing,
even though your movements mightbecome habitual, you're still
(05:44):
very cognitively aware. Soyou're thinking you're focused,
you're losing yourself in themoment quite often in that flow.
But it's a very cognitivepractice is dancing actually. So
your your body is moving you youcan gain control, awareness,
kinesthetic awareness ofyourself and other people, it's
(06:06):
a wonderful thing to do forindividual self esteem and
achievement. You learningsomething new, but also, it's
wonderful for creativity. So forcreativity, you know, you can
find yourself you can find yourvoice, you can express, you can
create, you can tell a story, oryou can, you know, just put some
(06:27):
movements together that make youfeel good. So socially, it can
be wonderful to connect withother people, as a community,
and develop something togetheron your own. And physically, of
course, it's wonderful, as wesaid, postural alignment,
breathing, all of those sorts ofthings. And then cognitively as
well. So you're thinking all thetime about you know, how to
(06:50):
problem solve, how to constructmovements, how to make your body
do what you'd like it to do, youknow, all sorts of things. So
it's really broad benefits indance and movement.
Yeah, it is. It's reallyfascinating when you really do
consider the mind and bodybenefits. And as you were
saying, the social benefits arereally key. And I also wondered
(07:16):
if, in your case, were there anycultural challenges because of
course, not everybody can get ifyou like, to the social
benefits, because sometimes,there's the cultural challenge,
perhaps dance isn't normative inthat particular setting, or
family or community. It mighteven be class based, like the
(07:39):
famous Billy Elliot film showedall of us. And I wondered if you
had any cultural challengesyourself?
So I guess, you know, I wasprobably quite lucky in it, you
know, was able to sort of accessa local dance group, or call
center, and, and sort of workfrom there. But I guess what
(08:05):
that privilege has given me is areal sort of access and
opportunity to offering dance tomany other audiences, many other
people. So there are challengesand barriers for people to
access dance in our society.Now, whether that is, you know,
ballet, or the more contemporaryforms. So culturally, many
(08:30):
people can dance in theirculture, and, you know, people
grow up dancing. But in termsof, you know, having some
teaching or training aroundthat, often that there is a
financial aspect to that oftenthere's an economic aspect to
that, and a lot of people can'tafford to go to classes to have
(08:50):
any technique, you know, whetherthat be dances rooted in the
African diaspora, so sort of,you know, hip hop classes or
something like this, or whetherit is contemporary or ballet or
more kind of, you know, codifiedforms, whatever. So, I think
there are certainly some, youknow, economic barriers, and
that continues to be the casefor many people, many people
(09:13):
would like to learn how todance, but it can be very
challenging to access that. So Ithink that is still a challenge
in our society. There are thingsthat have tried to break down
some of those barriers. So we'vehad the center of advanced
training that started in 2004.And that's a scheme to enable
young people who might not haveaccess to high quality training
(09:34):
to get that from some of ourconservatoires and so on. And
there are bursaries that go withenabling people to do that, but
sometimes those bursaries alsohave limits to them so people
can't always access as much asthey'd like. And then more
recently, there are some sort ofwider schemes which are free. So
(09:56):
for example, I do some researchwith the Signet School, which is
part of Matthew Bourne's NewAdventures company. And for that
scheme, it's completely free. Sotravel is is all covered, foods
covered, T shirts are covered,you know, everything is covered
there. And that reminds me ofanother program that I was able
to be involved in which wascalled Evanti, which is actually
(10:18):
a programme based in Kent. Andthat was a program for young
people who would come from, youknow, challenging circumstances.
So they may have been refugeesor excluded from school for
whatever reason. And we bought agroup together that didn't know
each other. And again, we did asort of wraparound care version
of an intervention, which meantthat we actually had people
(10:43):
picking up young people in aminibus, bringing them to the
university to engage in somesort of intensive dance
opportunities. And theexperience, obviously impacted
socially, physically,emotionally, cognitively, but
also culturally, so thinkingabout their opportunities to
(11:06):
build some social capital, forexample, you know, was was a
wonderful benefit from that. So.So yeah, so personally, I think
I, you know, I've had accesspoints, but I am very, very
aware that, you know, that isn'talways the case for people. And
that's what I'm trying to do inmy work really, you know, break
down some of those barriers andchallenges and really offer
(11:26):
people opportunities to move todance to engage with people,
creative people, who can sparecreativity from other people.
You know, and all of us toreally enjoy that that movement,
creative opportunity that dancebrings us. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, it isreally significant work that
you're investing in, personallyand professionally. And
(11:50):
actually, can we pop back to theSignet school because of course,
that's current work and, and forlisteners who may be new to the
world of dance, it's worth justto add some context that Matthew
Bourne, is considered the UK's most successful choreographer,
(12:13):
and director. In fact, he'sreceived a knighthood and he's
also received the QueenElizabeth II, Coronation
Award, which recognizes hisoutstanding services to the art
of ballet. And I just wanted toadd that context in Angela,
because it's really important,is it that the significance
(12:34):
of people like yourselves with awealth of experience and
significant careers, reallyunderstand the importance of
creating positive change, andespecially diversity.
Diversifying who canparticipate in the arts, in
ballet? I wondered if you couldtell us more about the Signet
(12:56):
school. I understand there'scurrently 15 students, I
wondered if you could tell usabout the diversity of their
backgrounds, and perhaps some ofthe impact that you're
already seeing through thisscheme?
Yes, so the Signet schoolstarted three years ago, this is
its third year. And it really isa sort of grassroots opportunity
(13:19):
linked to New Adventures way ofworking. So New Adventures do
have some important technicalunderpinnings. So they do work
in ballet and contemporaryforms. But what's really
exciting about new adventureswas probably why Matthew Bourne
has been so popular is thatthere is a wealth of creativity
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that comes from the work thatthey produce. One is the sort of
subversion of the more kind oftraditional tales that they
tell. And the way that Matthewwas able to make things relevant
to a wide audience in that way.But the other thing that that
New Adventures do really well issort of characterization and
(14:00):
offering creative opportunities.And they really focus on the
dancers that are in the room. Sowho have they got, and what can
those dancers bring to thatperformance, that creativity,
that creation process. And sothe Signet school started with
all of the kind of NewAdventures way of working in
(14:24):
mind to try and help one closethe gap because we've got less
boys dancing than we'd like. Soone of the aspects of that work
was really to build the pipelineof boys coming through and men
into dance. And that reallystarted some time ago when the
(14:46):
Lord of the Flies, musical performance came here in Kent,
and that is one way oftencommunity are involved in that
actual performance and it was achallenge to to find more
boys and men to engagewith that. So it's a bit of a
legacy coming from that. Andthen again, just looking at the
(15:08):
the pipeline of dancers thatwe'd really like to bring
through in Kent. And so thistraining program began an
education program, I probablyshould say, actually, because
there's much more than training,and 15 young people have been
brought together, all fromdifferent backgrounds, in terms
of ethnicity, age, so they'rebetween 13, and 18 and we did
(15:35):
have up to 25 for those withdisability. We've got different
genders represented, anddifferent economic backgrounds
as well. So there's a nice mixof people within that group. And
they are really fortunate, Ithink, to be taught by wonderful
(15:57):
teaching artists, and othermembers of the company come and
teach with them as well. Andthey have a nice support in
terms of pastoral care as well.And they meet just once every
month, so just on a Sunday,every month, and then they also
have a summer residency program,where they perform at the end of
(16:18):
that, so they create work thatthey perform to a wider
audience. Now, what's beenwonderful about working with
that, that group I feel reallyprivileged to be part of that is
that I've been doing all of thekind of research and evaluation
around that to inform theprogram as it develops. So we
started with the pilot year andthe work that came out of that
(16:41):
informed the first year. And we'vemoved on now to the second year
proper of the program. And somestudents have come in and out
because some have gone on touniversity or other training
programs, for example. We've gota core group of people, and then
new people come in, and they'rethey're brought in and supported
(17:02):
through that kind of inductionprocess. But during those
Sundays, the young people getsome technique classes, they
play games together. Theycreate, they have lots of
creative opportunities, theylearn new adventures repertoire,
as well. They eat together, theychat together. And it's just a
(17:24):
wonderful example of how one canbuild an enabling environment to
really support young people inadolescence, where they're going
through lots of differentchanges, and they're maybe
having other struggles beyondthe sort of normal adolescent
family groups and so on. Andthey are just such a wonderful,
(17:46):
social, socially, you know,beautiful community group, who
really do support and challengeeach other to create really high
quality work, you know, with avery high standard. And they do
this through really getting toknow each other very well,
there's a, there's a wonderfulway that they peer support and
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mentor each other. And theychallenge each other, they help
each other. So socially as beingwonderful. And what's coming out
of that is this real true senseof belonging that they have an
identity as a dancer, andthey're building that identity
as a dancer, but also as a youngperson. They're finding things
that they have in common, butalso things that are very
(18:27):
different. And they'reconnecting with each other in
that way. And again, themethodology, the pedagogy, the
way that that kind ofpsychological approach is
brought in as well to makingsure everybody feels safe in
that space, psychologicallysafe. So it's a really enabling
environment that's beendeveloped there. So obviously,
(18:48):
physically, technically,creatively, cognitively, problem
solving all of that kind ofstuffs there. But the social
stuff is really, reallyimportant, actually,
particularly this adolescenttime. So although it might be
hard for them to get up on aSunday morning to go once a
month, and they do have a longday together. It is really
(19:09):
outstanding, what they managedto do in that day. And similarly
in the summer program, thequality of what they produce,
they're together for a wholeweek, they stay here in Kent.
And, you know, they stay ina house, a residence from the
university. So again, you know,they they have a wonderful time
doing that, too. And, yeah, so Ifeel very, very privileged to be
(19:30):
able to really be part ofsomething that we feel has real
potential to grow. Yeah,
I was really interested to hearabout the emphasis on pastoral
care. I think it's so importantfor so many reasons. Obviously.
just the general context today,you know, in terms of cost of
(19:54):
living crisis, the pandemiccrisis, you know, mental health
and anxiety in general is asignificant and escalated
problem, but also in the contextof engaging young people that
are from a range of backgroundsthat may be economically
(20:16):
disadvantaged, or as you said,different ethnicities. There's
always a struggle isn't therewhere you may feel othered, for
example, but you are now in aspace that is embracing
diversity, it's creating a spaceof equality. But at the same
(20:38):
time, there are challenges. AndI'm wondering what kind of
things you're hearing theseparticipants say, from that
social point of view, the, thepositive impact this is making,
I'm wondering if you've evenheard anything that might have
surprised you, in the mostpositive way.
(21:00):
I think what's also wonderfulabout this particular scheme, if
you like, is that the youngpeople get access to seeing that
work on stage, so they actuallyget tickets for the New
Adventures productions as well.And just Saturday night, in
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fact, we brought together theyoung people, but also a parent,
or carer from each of the youngpeople as well. And so for some
of them, parents for some of theparents or carers, that might
have been the first time theywere able to go to the theater
to see a full production of oneof the Matthew Bourne's pieces.
(21:44):
And so what we're doing waswe're broadening, you know,
opportunities, audiences access.Whereas some people might not
have thought, you know, thetheater was for them. They might
not have thought that MatthewBourne's work was for them. You
know, they realize when, whenthey're watching that, actually,
it's so magical, and soengaging, and accessible that,
(22:06):
that, you know, we've had quitea few comments from the parents
and carers actually saying, wow,you know, this was the first
time I've done this, and it'sreally, really wonderful. And
similarly, young people, youknow, they wouldn't necessarily
be able to afford ticket pricesto go and see things, but we're
giving them those opportunities.And again, that really is part
of the methodology of MatthewBourne's work, that he wants it to
(22:28):
be accessible, he wants so manypeople to be involved and to
widen those audiences. And tomake it relevant for people. And
so I think that's been, youknow, one of the wonderful
outcomes that those barriersthat might have excluded are
actually including a little bitmore now. And in terms of those,
you know, young people, there issomething about that sense of
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belonging that's reallyimportant. So in that studio
space, it's a very differentstudio space to maybe a
classroom that you might find inschool, or even a school dance
session. In fact, because theyoung people are given autonomy
to a certain extent, you know,there's lots of opportunities
for them to make decisions, andto co-create co-design, develop
(23:14):
things for themselves, createtheir own kind of solo group
work, that kind of thing. Thereis this, this belonging that is
fostered from the moment theycome into the space, you know,
we chat to them about, you know,how their journey was how
they're feeling, we do a checkin to see, you know, if there's
anything we need to know,particularly all those sorts of
(23:36):
things. And then there's alsothis sort of notion of
competence. So everybody is seenfrom a positive point of view,
or can do point of view, so thateveryone is achieving and
developing, and it's all about,you know, them feeling as though
they are, you know, they haveworth and value. So, again, it's
(24:02):
sort of breaking down thebarriers, that dance is not for
everyone, because it really isin this case. And even if, you
know, things become challenging,so maybe they're trying to learn
something, and it's challenging,you know, everyone's working
through we find ways we finddifferent strategies to help
them problem solve, and, youknow, and there are times where
they can just sit out for a bitor chill out for a bit or, you
(24:24):
know, there's a lot of humor inthe room. So, you know,
there's never a kind of strictatmosphere where people feel
worried to speak up, there'slots of opportunity to questions
and voice. So that's what I meanby an enabling environment. I
think that's really come out,particularly from this this
particular program. Yeah,
yeah. And such rareopportunities, but such
(24:47):
significant and importantoptions, opportunities, and it's
all part of, if you like,literally changing the stage.
I'm really, I'm reallyinterested as well in, you know,
huge stories of self empowermentas well. So for example, Ballet
Black, the founder, Cassa Pancho, has done incredible work.
(25:11):
And again, just to offer somecontext for listeners, I was
reading how it was only in fact,20 years ago when she herself
was only 21 and as part of herown thesis research, where she
wanted to research black womenin ballet, was basically
(25:33):
confronted with the fact thatthere was no one she could
really go to. And it led to herfounding Ballet Black. And, you
know, 20 years later, you know,she's made significant inroads.
I think she currently has nine,possibly 10 members of the
(25:54):
ballet. But Isn't it incrediblethat Ballet Black was founded 20
years ago. And actually, there'salso really fascinating history
in terms of the American dancerand choreographer, Katherine
Dunham, who was also you know, adancer, and social activist, and
(26:18):
was also changing the stage. SoKatherine was bringing in dance
movement styles, if you likethat, that would have
embraced African, Caribbean andSouth American dance cultures.
And in the 1930s, and 40s,Katherine was also opening her
schools and had also alreadyfounded the first black ballet
(26:44):
dance company in the USA. Whatfascinates me is these are
huge stories of self empowermentand social change. And in this
very broad timeline, spanningfrom the 1930s to Ballet Black
being founded in 2001 and tothis really significant work
(27:07):
you're currently doing withMatthew Bourne. Yet, doesn't it
show that for some reason,change is slow, in terms of how
the stage embraces diversity ina way that is simply normal? Yes,
absolutely. So I think it'sworth mentioning now the first
(27:30):
British black professionalballerina, who was Julie Felix,
she's recently got an MBA Ithink. So she's a mixed race
dancer, black father from St.Lucia, white British mother. And
she also had to overcome quite alot of racism and
discrimination, but pushedthrough she wanted to be part of
(27:55):
the ballet world. So I've justdeveloped the Dance Educators
Network called Critical DancePedagogy through Discourse and
Practice, particularly for thesereasons. So although we do have
more representation within thedance sector, now, there is
(28:17):
still marginalized voices, thereare still underserved
communities, there are stillmany, many people who would love
to dance but don't don't haveaccess, opportunities,
visibility, all of those things.So we're talking about, you
know, all kinds of equity, diversity,inclusion in this way.
So this new Dance EducatorsNetwork, Critical Dance Pedagogy
(28:42):
is really examining the sort oftaken for granted assumptions
that exist in dance. And fromthat, it's about, you know,
which bodies are profiled whichbodies are accepted, to be in
this space, and which bodies areexcluded. And we still do have
quite a lot of exclusion ratherthan inclusion, even in the
(29:04):
contemporary forms. If you wantto work professionally, there's
still more that can be doneacross the whole of the sector.
And so we've got these sort ofdominant stereotypes. And we've
also got particular educationalstudio structures that can also
be quite excluding. So this iswhat we're really looking at
(29:25):
within this network. And it's aUK wide network, but it's also
got partners from the US andfrom Nordic countries as well.
And we're hoping that it willgrow to become more of an
international development aswell. But what we're trying to
challenge is this kind ofreproduction of hierarchies,
positions and capitals,barriers, exclusion, social
(29:49):
inequality, so we're reallytrying to challenge that as a
group to offer moreopportunities. So this is really
around the kind of professionaldance sector and the education
sector. Now, of course, incontrast, we've got a huge
participatory sector, which ismore around dance for health
(30:10):
dance for well being. And inthis sector, actually, it's very
inclusive, very open. Andthere's lots of evidence now to
show us that dancing, you know,with, you know, whether you're
very young, or whether you'remuch older, is very, very good
for our health and well beingbeing it has, you know, huge
amounts of health and well beingbenefits. So it's really
(30:31):
interesting how, you know, we'vegot this sort of, you can dance
if it's for kind of health andwell being, and there's lots of
opportunities around that. Butthere's less opportunities for
the kind of more professionalsector. So it could be sad that
people who might want to go anddance for health and well being
(30:52):
benefits might not do that. Theymight not feel the dances for
them, maybe because they haven'treally had the visibility, they
haven't seen dance around themhaven't had opportunities in
that way. So there was there'slots to be done really, in this
area to kind of close that gapbetween the sort of professional
educational work, and the healthand well being benefits. To
(31:15):
really show you know that dance can change our lives, dance can
make a difference to us. Andeverybody should be kind of
moving. Whether it is kind ofsomatically whether it is more
technically, or more creatively.So that's really why we sort of
developed this network.
Yeah, that sounds reallyinteresting, because it does
(31:36):
seem very clear that there areso many things to still confront
in terms of barriers andstructural barriers, and
actually having just mentioned,Cassa Pancho of Ballet Black,
one quote of hers that stood outand Cassa is also of mixed
heritage, her father's fromTrinidad and her mother's from
(31:58):
the UK. And she's always feltlike a witness to prejudice in
terms of she, in fact, has oftennot been perceived as being a
person of black heritageherself, maybe Mediterranean,
for example. And so she's oftenheard comments that would never
(32:22):
normally be made. But one overtcomment was being told, black
people only want to do hip hop.So the level of stereotyping,
assumptions, structuralbarriers, it's a lot of
unraveling isn't it, a lot ofconfronting in in the most
(32:46):
positive sense in order tochange these barriers of entry
to dance?
Absolutely. So what tends tohappen in society is a sort of
perpetuating of social norms andexpectations. And it's only when
you disrupt that, that you canmake change, you can start
evolving. Now, I think it'spossible, I'm very optimistic
(33:08):
that, you know, we can continueto evolve and continue to learn
and will continue to change, be,you know, more open and tolerant
in society. And that's, youknow, more kind of broad.
Because there is a lot ofprejudice, there is a lot of
racism, there is a lot of fear,around difference. And that is
(33:34):
something that we know, we needto work on as a society. And so
in my very small way, I'm tryingto make a difference, by
challenging some of those socialnorms and expectations,
encouraging others to challengethose norms and expectations.
(33:55):
And, you know, again, justtrying to make a difference
where I can, but one of myfavorite philosophers, it seems
odd to kind of bring him inhere, but it's Pierre Bourdieu.
And I think he kind of reallyhelps me understand why we do
perpetuate the social norms andexpectations. And it is to do
(34:17):
with power. And so, PierreBourdieu speaks about the sort
of the notion of social capital.So how you can build your power
really, and social capital.There are other sorts of
capitals. So for example, therewould be physical capital, that
(34:37):
would be you know, a really niceone to show power. There's
economic capital, of course, youknow, things like this. But
basically, in order tounderstand how you can use your
power or build your power, youhave to understand the rules of
the game. And for some people,if you're not given access and
(35:00):
opportunity to even you know,step into the game, then you're
not going to be able to buildthe power and understand the
rules of the game. And ofcourse, those people that are in
the game are manipulating thegame and perpetuating those
rules of the game. So what I'mtrying to do is sort of disrupt
a little bit and change therules. And that's, you know,
(35:24):
there's a wonderful personNyama McCarthy, who talks
about culturally responsivepedagogy. And she talks about
that she says, you know, whatare you going to change? What
are you going to let go off? Youknow, and I think, you know,
sometimes we don't realize whatwe take for granted. And these
(35:45):
taken for granted assumptionsand stereotypes it all needs to
be challenged. And so this, thisis what I'm trying to do, I'm
trying to disrupt the norms. Inmy work. Yeah.
And it reminds me of a quote Imade a note of from Matthew
Bourne, who was talking aboutrisks that face dance today. And
(36:06):
he said, "If you don't move withthe times, and you don't excite
the young, then it could be adying form." And in terms of what
you were just saying, positivedisruption. I'm wondering what
you would say, "moving with thetimes" looks like?
Yeah, so moving with the times,he's, I think, again,
(36:27):
challenging norms andexpectations that, you know, we
have a wealth of creativity inhuman beings, you know, there is
so much potential to createamazing work from people. People
have huge amounts of embodiment,they can bring, you know,
cultural identity, itexperiences of the world, you
(36:53):
know, emotional aspects, whetherthey are positive or more
negative kind of crystallizingexperiences that have made them,
you know, challenge or becurious or have courage to do
something, you know, there's awealth of opportunity there. And
(37:13):
I think, what Matthew perhaps issaying that, you know, we do
need to be able to giveopportunities to connect with
different people and seedifferent people on the stage
and have representation. And seewhat people bring, because huge
amounts of as I say, embodiment, cultural diversity
(37:36):
experience of the world. Youknow, there's lots and lots of
opportunity there for us. So Ithink, you know, we want to see,
we want to see a range of thingsgoing forward, the challenges
that theaters have got to take arisk sometimes to take on new
work, whether that be from sortof early career. choreographers,
(38:00):
for example, artists, whoare still experimenting with
their work, and need an audience,need a forum, need a critique, or
whether it is those sorts ofbigger companies that perhaps
they haven't seen before.Sometimes you've got to take a
risk and realize that, you know,we've got to sometimes educate
audiences as well, to be open tonew things. Because again,
(38:24):
sometimes if you see the samething on the stage that
perpetuates what you think youlike, you know, if you're not
given an opportunity to seeother things that might
challenge yourself and yourthinking, and, you know, maybe
educate you about things. So Ithink that's why it's really
important. So one of the otherprojects I'm doing is Little Big
(38:45):
Dance, which again, is reallythinking about very young
children and starting to exposevery young children to
contemporary dance and workingwith different artists. And they
actually co create the work withthese artists as well. So very
young children under five, areinvolved in a creative dance
(39:06):
process, where they're cocreating work with dance artists
and choreographers and co designing that work that goes
forward for production. And thentheaters are commissioning that
work. And that's been shown, andthat's been very, very
successful. So really startingvery, very young, to really push
(39:27):
the boundaries for the artistsas well, because the artists
might have an idea. And thechildren might, you know, select
or reject that. And so really,the artists been educated by
very, very young children. Sothat's just another example
where we can start, you know,really diversifying practice.
And not necessarily justthinking, you know, we're the
ones that are going to beinvolved in that practice.
(39:49):
Yeah, no, it's very interesting,because there's a strong case
isn't there for dance to beincluded as an important part of
the school curriculum as yousay, starting at an early age,
but of course, unfortunately,provision today at state schools
for for the arts is is very,very poor. There have been
(40:12):
systematic cuts. So I'mwondering, whilst you can see
there is that clear case,there's those benefits, for
example, that healthy openness,that curiosity of the mind, in
terms of what you were saying atthe beginning, learning
discipline, learning, stillness,in fact, is, you know, is all as
(40:33):
important as those physicalbenefits. But what would you say
are the correlations that areperhaps not better understood in
terms of dance and wellbeing,translating into wider positive
results in education?
(40:55):
So, as I said, sort of, at thestart, when we were talking
about my own background, I thinkdance is very cognitive, you
know, you're thinking all thetime in dance, but what it does
well, is because you'reconnecting the body and mind,
it's very inclusive in that way.Because for, you know, all of
(41:19):
us, we need to move. Andunfortunately, in our education
system at the moment, right,from, you know, very young
children, up to our, you know,secondary, there's a lot of
being routed to one place, interms of how you're educated.
So, you know, often very youngchildren are routed to seats for
(41:40):
long periods of time. Andsimilarly, in secondary, you
know, there's an awful lot ofcurriculum to cover. And there's
an awful lot, you know, thatthey, they learn, often in a
kind of seated position. Whereaswith dance, and with movement,
you know, to move it's, as thephysical benefits, of course,
(42:01):
you know, there is opportunitiesto build fitness, there is
opportunities for strength andconditioning, there's
opportunities for coordination,control, all of those sorts of
things. So there's the physicalhealth benefits where you've got
what you might have with othersports, for example, or
gymnastics, you know, you havethose benefits. But what's
(42:21):
different about dance is you'regetting wider benefits. So
you're connecting body and mind,because you're having to think
you're having to think beyondwhat you might do in a sports
relationship. For example, ofcourse, you're thinking about
different tactics or somethinglike this. But if you're
developing creativity, if you'redeveloping, you know, a way of
(42:42):
making a solo piece of work,let's say, you're thinking like,
you might think, in terms ofconstructing an essay. So you're
thinking about how you're goingto watch your idea how you're
going to construct your idea.And, you know, in terms of
words, what movements are yougoing to be using? How are you
(43:03):
going to punctuate thosemovements? So you know, as we
might have commas, or full stops, how you might structure
that movement in some way? Howyou might have a beginning,
middle and end of some sort? Howare you going to really engage
with the audience? How are yougoing to meaning make all of
those things come through danceexperiences, in the more
(43:24):
creative way, if you'reconnecting with other people,
again, you're working together,you're problem solving, you're
trying to make somethingtogether. So there is the
social, but also, as I say, thecognitive aspect, with that sort
of trying to engage with who'sgoing to lead who's going to
(43:45):
follow? How are you going toarticulate what you might do
together, you know, in words oror nonverbal. So, dance, for me
is a hugely important part ofthe curriculum, because it does
offer, you know, as I say, thesort of physical, social,
emotional, cultural benefits aswell because people can share
(44:08):
their experiences of the worldthrough their creativity and
through each other. And there'salso huge amounts of, you know,
as I say, group workingleadership, articulation, and
that can have a benefit in theclassroom as well with other
subjects, you know, in the waythat you think and learn.
Absolutely,
and all of those skills thatyou've identified, and the
(44:30):
significant research that's beenundertaken at the Sydney de Haan
Center really speaks to anabsolutely wonderful, it's one of
my most favorite documentariesand I know I've mentioned it to
you in a previous chat is MadHot Ballroom. So for the
listeners Mad Hot Ballroom, wasshot in America in 2005. You can
(44:54):
still find it online. And it'sabsolutely fantastic. And just
to give this example becauseit really speaks to everything
you've just said. This was adocumentary that involved
children in New York at threedifferent schools. And there
were all sorts of differentsocial depravations and
(45:18):
backgrounds and ballroomdancing was introduced. And from
the outset, that could have justlooked almost too ridiculous for
words. But the transformativeprocess of introducing ballroom
dancing to these children wasabsolutely phenomenal. It's
(45:42):
joyous. And it absolutelytransformed their confidence and
their wider outcomes and theresults in other subjects were
all climbing, everything wasimproving. And I think it was
really, that social impact thatyou've been consistently
(46:05):
referring to, that was really,really transformative in this
all the lovely etiquette thatwas involved, all of the
pastoral care that was involved,that actually matter. We care
about this, we want you to dowell in this dance competition,
the nice clothes that go on, thefact that you're leading your
partner onto the dance floor,and also the courage involved.
(46:30):
So competitive dancing, oreven just entering the space of
dance, is asking for a lot ofcourage. And I really felt this
documentary just summed all ofthese benefits up brilliantly,
and is as relevant today. Andwith all of the important
(46:51):
research you're doing today.
Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Ithink, you know, dances
certainly around health and wellbeing one of the biggest aspects
of the work that we've done inthe Center is around again, the
sort of sense of belonging,cohesion, community, identity
(47:12):
development that can betransformative for people. So
some of the projects we do thereor around different groups of
people. So for example, we did aproject with older groups. So we
did a project with older peoplewho had had a fall, or were at
risk of having a fall. Now, whenan older person has a fall, it
(47:36):
can really disrupt their day today life and dent their
confidence considerably. Sooften, they have a long recovery
period. And they tend to begiven two kinds of physiotherapy
methods to do at home. One iscalled Fame for people who have,
(47:57):
you know, less problems withtheir fall, and one is called
Otargo. But people don't tend towant to do those at home,
because they're quite boring,they're sort of given a little
sheet, and they have to coverthese exercises. So what we did
was take the sorts of exercisesto spit out therapy methods, and
we integrated them into acreative dance program. And then
(48:18):
we brought the older people intocommunity centers and brought
dance artists in. And we puttogether creative dance sessions
with the groups and integratedthese physiotherapy methods. And
so people were getting kind ofstronger and fitter and more
flexible, and more stable,without kind of realizing,
(48:38):
because they were reallyenjoying themselves through
creative dance. Now, one of thebiggest outcomes of that was it
really reduced loneliness,because some of the older people
were getting very lonely andvery bored and really did not
have confidence to kind of moveabout on their own, and things
like this, we didn't go out. Andso this sort of program just
gave them a new lease of life.And there were, you know, huge
(49:00):
amounts of there was hugeamounts of joy in the room, you
know, each time we went to thesessions, so reducing loneliness
is another way, you know, again,this community connection, you
know, of course, it had the wraparound with a cup of tea and
whatever. And they just lovedcoming. And so there was a, you
know, a great commitment therefrom people to really come in
(49:21):
enjoy this, this dance to healthprogram. So that's one example
of where, you know, dance can betransformative, it can really
change someone's life, fromfeeling very lonely, to having
this kind of dynamic change intheir life, and then again,
feeling, you know, much morestable in the way that they can
move around. Yeah, yeah. I thinkanother example is we're just
(49:43):
starting a program with somesurvivors of domestic abuse.
Now, Laura Kenyon has beenrunning this with groups of
dancers, who are professionaldancers, but have had
experiences of domestic abuseand we're going to be rolling
this out with widerpopulations of people who are
(50:04):
survivors of domestic abuse, andusing dance as a way of really
expressing some of that kind oftraumatic experience, but then,
you know, utilizing that forcreative aspects and building
people's confidence and identityand value again. And so that's
another project that's, that'scoming soon, which we're really
(50:26):
excited about. Yeah,
and I know that you can seeonline at the moment, examples
of this work with the artisticdirector, Laura Kenyon. And I
really do encourage people totake a look, because this space
of dance responding to somethingas traumatic as domestic
violence, for example, is soimportant, because of course,
(50:50):
dance, or the arts in generalhave such a significant role in
terms of trauma, and being ableto either express that trauma or
even to just simply startapproaching trauma in order to
start recovering. Absolutely.
And I think, you know, TalkingTherapies doesn't work for
(51:11):
everybody. You know, sometimespeople don't want to face some
of those things in throughwords. Sometimes they do. I
mean, you know, poetry, forexample, is a way where they can
face those things through wordswithout talking therapy as such,
but I think what dance and, youknow, broader arts
(51:32):
opportunities, whether that's,you know, drawing sculpture,
fine art, theater, whatever itmight be, they do offer a forum
for people to explore at theirown pace, to examine some of
these really challenging momentsin life. And then to make
(51:53):
choices about what they reallywant to investigate for
themselves. And in doing that,you know, we can offer a safe
space, a forum, that is, youknow, carefully constructed an
enabling environment, wherepeople can, you know, take small
steps, or big strides, whatever,you know, whatever is helpful,
(52:15):
and we will help them, you know,begin to come to terms with or
accept or move forward orbecome, or evolve, you know, as,
as kind of a new person throughthis experience, of support and
challenge to create somethingthat can be expressive, can be
(52:43):
kind of very big and bold, orcan be very small, and simple
and insular, but it makes hugemeaning to that person. And, you
know, can really, again, betransformative and helpful, if
done in the right way. So, youknow, I really believe in that
way, dance and, you know, movement practices, opportunities
(53:07):
like that can be life changingcan can be transformative. Yeah,
absolutely. And it's interestingwhen we reflect on the idea of
the courage that's involved,when we want to change our own
lives, or heal or have to facecertain things, or even just to
(53:28):
simply choose to be a performer.And of course, there are other
struggles and difficulties and your book certainly addresses
the risks that dancers can facein terms of unnatural demands,
(53:50):
if you like, particularly goingback to the idea of body
expectations, and I know thatyou've written about eating
disorders, pain, anxiety,addiction, and and even post
traumatic stress disorder can bepart of the dance world, or
(54:10):
perhaps more specifically, theballet world. There's a huge
struggle, in fact, betweencourage and conflict, and I
wondered how you see those areasbeing addressed today. Those
unhealthy demands, if you like,on professional dancers.
(54:31):
Yeah, yes. So this work waswork where I attract young dancers
as they were becoming dancers.It was a longitudinal study. And
it looked at all of the aspectsof becoming a dancer,
particularly a ballet dancer.And I still have some of those
(54:52):
young dancers who were involved in that early study that I'm still
in touch with. And I've trackedthem through to see how they've
developed in their profession.So I think can, you know in
terms of the sort of ballerinastereotype, it does represent
the sort of social culturalrepresentations and
contradictions really. So, youknow, on the one hand a ballerina
(55:15):
is, it sort of demonstratesartistry, technical mastery
strength. Ballet is an areawhere women dominate as dancers
and teachers actually, and iswell funded, you know, becoming
part of a company is huge,kudos, kudos, you get, you know,
multiple support teams aroundyou, making sure that you
(55:38):
thrive. But on the other hand,ballet is quite restrictive.
And there's a limitation.Because it is quite technically
driven. So that creativity isnot so much now, because there
are much more versions ofballets and more creativity
(56:00):
coming through. But it can bequite restrictive, and
technically driven. Andsometimes, ballet dancers lack
agency. So traditional balletmethods are quite authoritarian
(56:20):
in sort of ballet teaching. Andso, you know, the ballet dancer
isn't really supposed toquestion. And there are
particular physical mentaldemands on ballet dancers. So,
you know, there is anexpectation of particular
ballet, body size, shape, andthat does bring with it, some
risks, some tensions, somechallenge some pressures. And so
(56:45):
there is evidence, from thestudies that I've undertaken,
that study that I've mentioned,and others, as in other asset
exports, actually, as well. Sowhen you have, you know, a big
focus on asset aesthetics andparticular size, shape of
bodies, and so on, that can havean impact on people whose bodies
(57:09):
maybe don't fit, and, or theydon't feel that they fit. So in
terms of mental illness, youknow, that can be a challenge.
So yes, there, you know, therecan be a prevalence of eating
disorders, and vulnerabilitiesand risk to eating disorder,
because there is, you know, amirror, constantly magnifying
(57:36):
and their scrutiny of the body,you know, very much within the
ballet world. However, I wouldsay that, there are some
changes, you know, balletcompanies, ballet schools, are
much more mindful of theseareas. And they are developing,
you know, much more kind ofhealthy dancer programs. And
(57:58):
really thinking about some ofthose difficult circumstances
from, you know, quite a youngage with ballet dancers coming
through that training program.So there is some work happening
there. And I've pleased to beinvolved involved in some of
that. So that's been great.You'll know that we recently had
the Panorama program that talkedabout some of those historical
things, you know, some bullyingand some, you know, some quite
(58:23):
uncomfortable areas. So it'sdisappointing that you know,
that there's still evidence ofthat. It's going to take a long
time to change because I saythere are these sort of social
norms and expectations, we'vegot to disrupt them. People have
got to feel they have agency andvoice within that. And the
training programs in thetraditional form doesn't really
(58:44):
give room for that. So yeah, sothat's that's very much what
I'm, I've been interested in aswireless off disrupting that to
make things much more kind ofhealthy for longevity in the
profession as well. Yeah,
it's really fascinating. And interms of the the network you
mentioned earlier, you know, interms of addressing all sorts
(59:05):
of, of issues facing structuralbarriers in the dance world. In
Season Five, I had the privilegeto interview Gregory Maqoma
who is considered a legend as adancer and a choreographer. And
he lived under the South Africanapartheid system for the first
(59:28):
21 years of his life. So he isan outstanding person in terms
of how he survived some of thecruelest and most overt barriers
of discrimination to become whohe is today. But of course, his
dance company is all about thefact that we are all different
(59:52):
shapes and sizes, everythingthat you were speaking to and
the importance of recognizingthat and embrace saying that,
and, in fact, I should introduceyou perhaps for your network,
because his insights,his experience is invaluable.
And also, he's the mentor toMusa Motha also interviewed in
(01:00:15):
Season Five that some listenersmay know, was a finalist on
Britain's Got Talent for hisoutstanding dance performance,
despite having a leg amputatedat the age of 11. So I'm
highlighting these examples,partly because it's so relevant
to your work and hopefully, Ican make some introductions. But
(01:00:37):
also, it's such importanttestimony, isn't it? That of
course, dance belongs toeverybody. Of course, it
shouldn't be dictated by certainbody types. Absolutely.
So I think, as I say, I mean,we've we have had, you know,
huge amounts of changes over theyears, where we do have, you
(01:00:58):
know, companies like Candoco for example, who really profile
disability within their work.And as you've mentioned, you
know, we've had some challengeswith some of the prejudices in
terms of race. So there havebeen some versions, there have
been disruptions, there havebeen, you know, wonderful things
(01:01:20):
happening in the sector. Butthere's room for more. And I
think this is why it's reallyimportant to keep challenging
those norms, expectations, andstereotypes, you know, disrupt
the sort of practice that canperpetuate quite deep sort of
freedom, illness, and trauma,and so on. And, you know, open
(01:01:42):
our doors and become, you know,much more inclusive, much more
equitable, equitable, much morediverse. And I think, you know,
this is, again, something I'mreally passionate about.
It's absolutely fascinating whatyour work and your research is
doing. And I'm hugely conscious,we've raced through our hour,
(01:02:05):
and there's so many interestingthings to talk about. So I
should certainly move on to theclosing question before making a
couple of additional comments.And of course, that's what your
thoughts are on the seriesquestion, Can art save us? Or
should I say, Can dance save us?Or does one dance a day keep the
(01:02:31):
doctor away? Absolutely.
So yes, I think dance can saveus. I think when we dance
together, we get to know eachother. And that's really
important in society. So all ofthose prejudices, fears,
stereotypes, they all go out thewindow, when you're actually in
(01:02:53):
the studio with people or in anightclub, or wherever you are,
or at a party, and you'redancing together. You get to
know each other. And all thosebarriers come down. So yes, I
think arts can save us, it canmake us a much more inclusive
society. And it can make us amore tolerant society.
It's been so lovely having thistime with you today. I can't
(01:03:16):
thank you enough, because it'sreally bringing to the fore that
dance obviously has multiplebenefits. And it really does
need to almost be returned tothe people, that it's something
that is all of ours. And I thinkthat maybe we need to think of
Dr. Angela Pickard formerly knownas Squiggle, as someone who
(01:03:44):
still today has significantenergy, just as much as when you
were a young toddler entering theworld of dance, because it does
take this huge amount of energyand commitment, doesn't it to
literally change the stage, thedance stage. And what we're
really talking about is changingthose deep structural barriers
(01:04:04):
and inequalities. And it'shugely impressive to hear about
the range of work you're doingat the Sydney de Haan Center. So
thank you very much for yourtime today.
Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Welcome to this podcastseries asking the question, Can
art save us? I'm starting thefirst national and international
conversation about courage andcuriosity. What do these
qualities really mean? And whydoes it make a big difference to
our mental, societal anddemocratic health? I talk to
award winning and diverseartists across the arts to
(00:24):
explore these qualities in theirlives and work, both to inspire
and for us all to learn. I'mexploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities,
and even global conflicts. Ifthe arts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? Do
(00:50):
you like dancing? Do we danceenough? Or maybe the question
is, why don't we dance more? Myguest today is not only an
accomplished dancer andchoreographer, but the UK is
first professor of DanceEducation Dr. Angela Pickard.
Angela has worked with talenteddancers and choreographers
across a multitude of theatersand sites, both in the UK and
(01:14):
internationally. From toddlersto the Royal Ballet School
Angela has a wealth ofknowledge. And she is currently
the director of the Sydney toHan Research Center for Arts and
Health here in the UK. She isinterested in the relationship
between dance and psychological,social and artistic outcomes.
She's particularly interested inresponding to exclusion who is
(01:37):
and isn't included in dance,even in contemporary forms that
we might assume are much moreaccessible. who participates in
dance is problematic. There's aring of elitism around it. Yet
dance is recorded in some of theearliest cave paintings so
wasn't it always part of who weall are? Different generations
(02:01):
may have memories of thetraditional Friday night dance
at the village hall, the schooldisco the glamorous prom, the
explosion of street dance, ormaybe just at weddings? Have
you ever been to a morning dancerave known as a Daybreaker? To
feel energized and well? Areyou a fan of the hit TV series
(02:21):
Strictly Come Dancing? Whateveris happening, it seems our
relationship with dance isfragmented. Yet it has brought
joy, protest and phenomenalsocial change through the ages.
So let's get curious aboutdance. And who better to ask
than the UK is first professorof dance education. Hello,
(02:42):
Angela. Thank you for joiningme.
Hello, what a wonderfulintroduction. Thank you so much.
Oh, you're very welcome. It'sit's such a pleasure to be able
to explore different subjectsand the arts through my
guests. It's just such a lovelyopportunity to keep learning.
And I wondered actually, Angelaif the best starting point was
(03:07):
to really understand how youfirst engaged with dance? Maybe
there's a first memory or thefirst time you were exposed to
dance, but how come you became adancer?
Hmm. So I think it probably wasbecause I was a very active
child. I wasn't able to keepstill. And my dad, in fact used
(03:32):
to call me Squiggle I just couldnot keep still. And that was
really why and how I think I gotinto dance. Because it was about
learning how to be still ratherthan movement, initially, so I
went along to ballet. And inthat particular technique,
(03:54):
there's, you know, a disciplinein terms of understanding
stillness, as well as movement.So, and I think I loved that
discipline in some ways, becauseI was able to control and calm
myself perhaps for you know,times when I hadn't really been
able to do that before because Ifound stillness, very, very
(04:15):
challenging. I have to say even nowI find stillness quite challenging.
But yeah, so I think that'sprobably how I began. That's
fascinating
to immediately consider dance asequally being about stillness as
it is about movement. That'sabsolutely fascinating. So I
suppose that may feed into thosewider benefits of not just
(04:40):
physical training, but perhapsmental training as well. Would
you say that's fair to say?Absolutely.
So I think it depends what kindof dance you do, but certainly
in some of the sort of, youknow, more technical practices,
so, you know, let's takesomething like ballet. There's a
codified movement, you know, setup from movements, it's about
(05:01):
200 steps to learn in classicalballet. So you learn a technical
vocabulary, sort of along thatyou know, the sort of style of
what you're doing. You learn tofocus, discipline, calm,
breathe. And it really focusesthe mind and body. So you know,
(05:21):
that can be really helpful forpeople and certainly was helpful
for me as a way in. But in termsof the broader dance aspects,
dance is very holistic. So weuse body, body and mind
connecting. So you're thinkingall the time you're dancing,
even though your movements mightbecome habitual, you're still
(05:44):
very cognitively aware. Soyou're thinking you're focused,
you're losing yourself in themoment quite often in that flow.
But it's a very cognitivepractice is dancing actually. So
your your body is moving you youcan gain control, awareness,
kinesthetic awareness ofyourself and other people, it's
(06:06):
a wonderful thing to do forindividual self esteem and
achievement. You learningsomething new, but also, it's
wonderful for creativity. So forcreativity, you know, you can
find yourself you can find yourvoice, you can express, you can
create, you can tell a story, oryou can, you know, just put some
(06:27):
movements together that make youfeel good. So socially, it can
be wonderful to connect withother people, as a community,
and develop something togetheron your own. And physically, of
course, it's wonderful, as wesaid, postural alignment,
breathing, all of those sorts ofthings. And then cognitively as
well. So you're thinking all thetime about you know, how to
(06:50):
problem solve, how to constructmovements, how to make your body
do what you'd like it to do, youknow, all sorts of things. So
it's really broad benefits indance and movement.
Yeah, it is. It's reallyfascinating when you really do
consider the mind and bodybenefits. And as you were
saying, the social benefits arereally key. And I also wondered
(07:16):
if, in your case, were there anycultural challenges because of
course, not everybody can get ifyou like, to the social
benefits, because sometimes,there's the cultural challenge,
perhaps dance isn't normative inthat particular setting, or
family or community. It mighteven be class based, like the
(07:39):
famous Billy Elliot film showedall of us. And I wondered if you
had any cultural challengesyourself?
So I guess, you know, I wasprobably quite lucky in it, you
know, was able to sort of accessa local dance group, or call
center, and, and sort of workfrom there. But I guess what
(08:05):
that privilege has given me is areal sort of access and
opportunity to offering dance tomany other audiences, many other
people. So there are challengesand barriers for people to
access dance in our society.Now, whether that is, you know,
ballet, or the more contemporaryforms. So culturally, many
(08:30):
people can dance in theirculture, and, you know, people
grow up dancing. But in termsof, you know, having some
teaching or training aroundthat, often that there is a
financial aspect to that oftenthere's an economic aspect to
that, and a lot of people can'tafford to go to classes to have
(08:50):
any technique, you know, whetherthat be dances rooted in the
African diaspora, so sort of,you know, hip hop classes or
something like this, or whetherit is contemporary or ballet or
more kind of, you know, codifiedforms, whatever. So, I think
there are certainly some, youknow, economic barriers, and
that continues to be the casefor many people, many people
(09:13):
would like to learn how todance, but it can be very
challenging to access that. So Ithink that is still a challenge
in our society. There are thingsthat have tried to break down
some of those barriers. So we'vehad the center of advanced
training that started in 2004.And that's a scheme to enable
young people who might not haveaccess to high quality training
(09:34):
to get that from some of ourconservatoires and so on. And
there are bursaries that go withenabling people to do that, but
sometimes those bursaries alsohave limits to them so people
can't always access as much asthey'd like. And then more
recently, there are some sort ofwider schemes which are free. So
(09:56):
for example, I do some researchwith the Signet School, which is
part of Matthew Bourne's NewAdventures company. And for that
scheme, it's completely free. Sotravel is is all covered, foods
covered, T shirts are covered,you know, everything is covered
there. And that reminds me ofanother program that I was able
to be involved in which wascalled Evanti, which is actually
(10:18):
a programme based in Kent. Andthat was a program for young
people who would come from, youknow, challenging circumstances.
So they may have been refugeesor excluded from school for
whatever reason. And we bought agroup together that didn't know
each other. And again, we did asort of wraparound care version
of an intervention, which meantthat we actually had people
(10:43):
picking up young people in aminibus, bringing them to the
university to engage in somesort of intensive dance
opportunities. And theexperience, obviously impacted
socially, physically,emotionally, cognitively, but
also culturally, so thinkingabout their opportunities to
(11:06):
build some social capital, forexample, you know, was was a
wonderful benefit from that. So.So yeah, so personally, I think
I, you know, I've had accesspoints, but I am very, very
aware that, you know, that isn'talways the case for people. And
that's what I'm trying to do inmy work really, you know, break
down some of those barriers andchallenges and really offer
(11:26):
people opportunities to move todance to engage with people,
creative people, who can sparecreativity from other people.
You know, and all of us toreally enjoy that that movement,
creative opportunity that dancebrings us. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, it isreally significant work that
you're investing in, personallyand professionally. And
(11:50):
actually, can we pop back to theSignet school because of course,
that's current work and, and forlisteners who may be new to the
world of dance, it's worth justto add some context that Matthew
Bourne, is considered the UK's most successful choreographer,
(12:13):
and director. In fact, he'sreceived a knighthood and he's
also received the QueenElizabeth II, Coronation
Award, which recognizes hisoutstanding services to the art
of ballet. And I just wanted toadd that context in Angela,
because it's really important,is it that the significance
(12:34):
of people like yourselves with awealth of experience and
significant careers, reallyunderstand the importance of
creating positive change, andespecially diversity.
Diversifying who canparticipate in the arts, in
ballet? I wondered if you couldtell us more about the Signet
(12:56):
school. I understand there'scurrently 15 students, I
wondered if you could tell usabout the diversity of their
backgrounds, and perhaps some ofthe impact that you're
already seeing through thisscheme?
Yes, so the Signet schoolstarted three years ago, this is
its third year. And it really isa sort of grassroots opportunity
(13:19):
linked to New Adventures way ofworking. So New Adventures do
have some important technicalunderpinnings. So they do work
in ballet and contemporaryforms. But what's really
exciting about new adventureswas probably why Matthew Bourne
has been so popular is thatthere is a wealth of creativity
(13:39):
that comes from the work thatthey produce. One is the sort of
subversion of the more kind oftraditional tales that they
tell. And the way that Matthewwas able to make things relevant
to a wide audience in that way.But the other thing that that
New Adventures do really well issort of characterization and
(14:00):
offering creative opportunities.And they really focus on the
dancers that are in the room. Sowho have they got, and what can
those dancers bring to thatperformance, that creativity,
that creation process. And sothe Signet school started with
all of the kind of NewAdventures way of working in
(14:24):
mind to try and help one closethe gap because we've got less
boys dancing than we'd like. Soone of the aspects of that work
was really to build the pipelineof boys coming through and men
into dance. And that reallystarted some time ago when the
(14:46):
Lord of the Flies, musical performance came here in Kent,
and that is one way oftencommunity are involved in that
actual performance and it was achallenge to to find more
boys and men to engagewith that. So it's a bit of a
legacy coming from that. Andthen again, just looking at the
(15:08):
the pipeline of dancers thatwe'd really like to bring
through in Kent. And so thistraining program began an
education program, I probablyshould say, actually, because
there's much more than training,and 15 young people have been
brought together, all fromdifferent backgrounds, in terms
of ethnicity, age, so they'rebetween 13, and 18 and we did
(15:35):
have up to 25 for those withdisability. We've got different
genders represented, anddifferent economic backgrounds
as well. So there's a nice mixof people within that group. And
they are really fortunate, Ithink, to be taught by wonderful
(15:57):
teaching artists, and othermembers of the company come and
teach with them as well. Andthey have a nice support in
terms of pastoral care as well.And they meet just once every
month, so just on a Sunday,every month, and then they also
have a summer residency program,where they perform at the end of
(16:18):
that, so they create work thatthey perform to a wider
audience. Now, what's beenwonderful about working with
that, that group I feel reallyprivileged to be part of that is
that I've been doing all of thekind of research and evaluation
around that to inform theprogram as it develops. So we
started with the pilot year andthe work that came out of that
(16:41):
informed the first year. And we'vemoved on now to the second year
proper of the program. And somestudents have come in and out
because some have gone on touniversity or other training
programs, for example. We've gota core group of people, and then
new people come in, and they'rethey're brought in and supported
(17:02):
through that kind of inductionprocess. But during those
Sundays, the young people getsome technique classes, they
play games together. Theycreate, they have lots of
creative opportunities, theylearn new adventures repertoire,
as well. They eat together, theychat together. And it's just a
(17:24):
wonderful example of how one canbuild an enabling environment to
really support young people inadolescence, where they're going
through lots of differentchanges, and they're maybe
having other struggles beyondthe sort of normal adolescent
family groups and so on. Andthey are just such a wonderful,
(17:46):
social, socially, you know,beautiful community group, who
really do support and challengeeach other to create really high
quality work, you know, with avery high standard. And they do
this through really getting toknow each other very well,
there's a, there's a wonderfulway that they peer support and
(18:06):
mentor each other. And theychallenge each other, they help
each other. So socially as beingwonderful. And what's coming out
of that is this real true senseof belonging that they have an
identity as a dancer, andthey're building that identity
as a dancer, but also as a youngperson. They're finding things
that they have in common, butalso things that are very
(18:27):
different. And they'reconnecting with each other in
that way. And again, themethodology, the pedagogy, the
way that that kind ofpsychological approach is
brought in as well to makingsure everybody feels safe in
that space, psychologicallysafe. So it's a really enabling
environment that's beendeveloped there. So obviously,
(18:48):
physically, technically,creatively, cognitively, problem
solving all of that kind ofstuffs there. But the social
stuff is really, reallyimportant, actually,
particularly this adolescenttime. So although it might be
hard for them to get up on aSunday morning to go once a
month, and they do have a longday together. It is really
(19:09):
outstanding, what they managedto do in that day. And similarly
in the summer program, thequality of what they produce,
they're together for a wholeweek, they stay here in Kent.
And, you know, they stay ina house, a residence from the
university. So again, you know,they they have a wonderful time
doing that, too. And, yeah, so Ifeel very, very privileged to be
(19:30):
able to really be part ofsomething that we feel has real
potential to grow. Yeah,
I was really interested to hearabout the emphasis on pastoral
care. I think it's so importantfor so many reasons. Obviously.
just the general context today,you know, in terms of cost of
(19:54):
living crisis, the pandemiccrisis, you know, mental health
and anxiety in general is asignificant and escalated
problem, but also in the contextof engaging young people that
are from a range of backgroundsthat may be economically
(20:16):
disadvantaged, or as you said,different ethnicities. There's
always a struggle isn't therewhere you may feel othered, for
example, but you are now in aspace that is embracing
diversity, it's creating a spaceof equality. But at the same
(20:38):
time, there are challenges. AndI'm wondering what kind of
things you're hearing theseparticipants say, from that
social point of view, the, thepositive impact this is making,
I'm wondering if you've evenheard anything that might have
surprised you, in the mostpositive way.
(21:00):
I think what's also wonderfulabout this particular scheme, if
you like, is that the youngpeople get access to seeing that
work on stage, so they actuallyget tickets for the New
Adventures productions as well.And just Saturday night, in
(21:21):
fact, we brought together theyoung people, but also a parent,
or carer from each of the youngpeople as well. And so for some
of them, parents for some of theparents or carers, that might
have been the first time theywere able to go to the theater
to see a full production of oneof the Matthew Bourne's pieces.
(21:44):
And so what we're doing waswe're broadening, you know,
opportunities, audiences access.Whereas some people might not
have thought, you know, thetheater was for them. They might
not have thought that MatthewBourne's work was for them. You
know, they realize when, whenthey're watching that, actually,
it's so magical, and soengaging, and accessible that,
(22:06):
that, you know, we've had quitea few comments from the parents
and carers actually saying, wow,you know, this was the first
time I've done this, and it'sreally, really wonderful. And
similarly, young people, youknow, they wouldn't necessarily
be able to afford ticket pricesto go and see things, but we're
giving them those opportunities.And again, that really is part
of the methodology of MatthewBourne's work, that he wants it to
(22:28):
be accessible, he wants so manypeople to be involved and to
widen those audiences. And tomake it relevant for people. And
so I think that's been, youknow, one of the wonderful
outcomes that those barriersthat might have excluded are
actually including a little bitmore now. And in terms of those,
you know, young people, there issomething about that sense of
(22:50):
belonging that's reallyimportant. So in that studio
space, it's a very differentstudio space to maybe a
classroom that you might find inschool, or even a school dance
session. In fact, because theyoung people are given autonomy
to a certain extent, you know,there's lots of opportunities
for them to make decisions, andto co-create co-design, develop
(23:14):
things for themselves, createtheir own kind of solo group
work, that kind of thing. Thereis this, this belonging that is
fostered from the moment theycome into the space, you know,
we chat to them about, you know,how their journey was how
they're feeling, we do a checkin to see, you know, if there's
anything we need to know,particularly all those sorts of
(23:36):
things. And then there's alsothis sort of notion of
competence. So everybody is seenfrom a positive point of view,
or can do point of view, so thateveryone is achieving and
developing, and it's all about,you know, them feeling as though
they are, you know, they haveworth and value. So, again, it's
(24:02):
sort of breaking down thebarriers, that dance is not for
everyone, because it really isin this case. And even if, you
know, things become challenging,so maybe they're trying to learn
something, and it's challenging,you know, everyone's working
through we find ways we finddifferent strategies to help
them problem solve, and, youknow, and there are times where
they can just sit out for a bitor chill out for a bit or, you
(24:24):
know, there's a lot of humor inthe room. So, you know,
there's never a kind of strictatmosphere where people feel
worried to speak up, there'slots of opportunity to questions
and voice. So that's what I meanby an enabling environment. I
think that's really come out,particularly from this this
particular program. Yeah,
yeah. And such rareopportunities, but such
(24:47):
significant and importantoptions, opportunities, and it's
all part of, if you like,literally changing the stage.
I'm really, I'm reallyinterested as well in, you know,
huge stories of self empowermentas well. So for example, Ballet
Black, the founder, Cassa Pancho, has done incredible work.
(25:11):
And again, just to offer somecontext for listeners, I was
reading how it was only in fact,20 years ago when she herself
was only 21 and as part of herown thesis research, where she
wanted to research black womenin ballet, was basically
(25:33):
confronted with the fact thatthere was no one she could
really go to. And it led to herfounding Ballet Black. And, you
know, 20 years later, you know,she's made significant inroads.
I think she currently has nine,possibly 10 members of the
(25:54):
ballet. But Isn't it incrediblethat Ballet Black was founded 20
years ago. And actually, there'salso really fascinating history
in terms of the American dancerand choreographer, Katherine
Dunham, who was also you know, adancer, and social activist, and
(26:18):
was also changing the stage. SoKatherine was bringing in dance
movement styles, if you likethat, that would have
embraced African, Caribbean andSouth American dance cultures.
And in the 1930s, and 40s,Katherine was also opening her
schools and had also alreadyfounded the first black ballet
(26:44):
dance company in the USA. Whatfascinates me is these are
huge stories of self empowermentand social change. And in this
very broad timeline, spanningfrom the 1930s to Ballet Black
being founded in 2001 and tothis really significant work
(27:07):
you're currently doing withMatthew Bourne. Yet, doesn't it
show that for some reason,change is slow, in terms of how
the stage embraces diversity ina way that is simply normal? Yes,
absolutely. So I think it'sworth mentioning now the first
(27:30):
British black professionalballerina, who was Julie Felix,
she's recently got an MBA Ithink. So she's a mixed race
dancer, black father from St.Lucia, white British mother. And
she also had to overcome quite alot of racism and
discrimination, but pushedthrough she wanted to be part of
(27:55):
the ballet world. So I've justdeveloped the Dance Educators
Network called Critical DancePedagogy through Discourse and
Practice, particularly for thesereasons. So although we do have
more representation within thedance sector, now, there is
(28:17):
still marginalized voices, thereare still underserved
communities, there are stillmany, many people who would love
to dance but don't don't haveaccess, opportunities,
visibility, all of those things.So we're talking about, you
know, all kinds of equity, diversity,inclusion in this way.
So this new Dance EducatorsNetwork, Critical Dance Pedagogy
(28:42):
is really examining the sort oftaken for granted assumptions
that exist in dance. And fromthat, it's about, you know,
which bodies are profiled whichbodies are accepted, to be in
this space, and which bodies areexcluded. And we still do have
quite a lot of exclusion ratherthan inclusion, even in the
(29:04):
contemporary forms. If you wantto work professionally, there's
still more that can be doneacross the whole of the sector.
And so we've got these sort ofdominant stereotypes. And we've
also got particular educationalstudio structures that can also
be quite excluding. So this iswhat we're really looking at
(29:25):
within this network. And it's aUK wide network, but it's also
got partners from the US andfrom Nordic countries as well.
And we're hoping that it willgrow to become more of an
international development aswell. But what we're trying to
challenge is this kind ofreproduction of hierarchies,
positions and capitals,barriers, exclusion, social
(29:49):
inequality, so we're reallytrying to challenge that as a
group to offer moreopportunities. So this is really
around the kind of professionaldance sector and the education
sector. Now, of course, incontrast, we've got a huge
participatory sector, which ismore around dance for health
(30:10):
dance for well being. And inthis sector, actually, it's very
inclusive, very open. Andthere's lots of evidence now to
show us that dancing, you know,with, you know, whether you're
very young, or whether you'remuch older, is very, very good
for our health and well beingbeing it has, you know, huge
amounts of health and well beingbenefits. So it's really
(30:31):
interesting how, you know, we'vegot this sort of, you can dance
if it's for kind of health andwell being, and there's lots of
opportunities around that. Butthere's less opportunities for
the kind of more professionalsector. So it could be sad that
people who might want to go anddance for health and well being
(30:52):
benefits might not do that. Theymight not feel the dances for
them, maybe because they haven'treally had the visibility, they
haven't seen dance around themhaven't had opportunities in
that way. So there was there'slots to be done really, in this
area to kind of close that gapbetween the sort of professional
educational work, and the healthand well being benefits. To
(31:15):
really show you know that dance can change our lives, dance can
make a difference to us. Andeverybody should be kind of
moving. Whether it is kind ofsomatically whether it is more
technically, or more creatively.So that's really why we sort of
developed this network.
Yeah, that sounds reallyinteresting, because it does
(31:36):
seem very clear that there areso many things to still confront
in terms of barriers andstructural barriers, and
actually having just mentioned,Cassa Pancho of Ballet Black,
one quote of hers that stood outand Cassa is also of mixed
heritage, her father's fromTrinidad and her mother's from
(31:58):
the UK. And she's always feltlike a witness to prejudice in
terms of she, in fact, has oftennot been perceived as being a
person of black heritageherself, maybe Mediterranean,
for example. And so she's oftenheard comments that would never
(32:22):
normally be made. But one overtcomment was being told, black
people only want to do hip hop.So the level of stereotyping,
assumptions, structuralbarriers, it's a lot of
unraveling isn't it, a lot ofconfronting in in the most
(32:46):
positive sense in order tochange these barriers of entry
to dance?
Absolutely. So what tends tohappen in society is a sort of
perpetuating of social norms andexpectations. And it's only when
you disrupt that, that you canmake change, you can start
evolving. Now, I think it'spossible, I'm very optimistic
(33:08):
that, you know, we can continueto evolve and continue to learn
and will continue to change, be,you know, more open and tolerant
in society. And that's, youknow, more kind of broad.
Because there is a lot ofprejudice, there is a lot of
racism, there is a lot of fear,around difference. And that is
(33:34):
something that we know, we needto work on as a society. And so
in my very small way, I'm tryingto make a difference, by
challenging some of those socialnorms and expectations,
encouraging others to challengethose norms and expectations.
(33:55):
And, you know, again, justtrying to make a difference
where I can, but one of myfavorite philosophers, it seems
odd to kind of bring him inhere, but it's Pierre Bourdieu.
And I think he kind of reallyhelps me understand why we do
perpetuate the social norms andexpectations. And it is to do
(34:17):
with power. And so, PierreBourdieu speaks about the sort
of the notion of social capital.So how you can build your power
really, and social capital.There are other sorts of
capitals. So for example, therewould be physical capital, that
(34:37):
would be you know, a really niceone to show power. There's
economic capital, of course, youknow, things like this. But
basically, in order tounderstand how you can use your
power or build your power, youhave to understand the rules of
the game. And for some people,if you're not given access and
(35:00):
opportunity to even you know,step into the game, then you're
not going to be able to buildthe power and understand the
rules of the game. And ofcourse, those people that are in
the game are manipulating thegame and perpetuating those
rules of the game. So what I'mtrying to do is sort of disrupt
a little bit and change therules. And that's, you know,
(35:24):
there's a wonderful personNyama McCarthy, who talks
about culturally responsivepedagogy. And she talks about
that she says, you know, whatare you going to change? What
are you going to let go off? Youknow, and I think, you know,
sometimes we don't realize whatwe take for granted. And these
(35:45):
taken for granted assumptionsand stereotypes it all needs to
be challenged. And so this, thisis what I'm trying to do, I'm
trying to disrupt the norms. Inmy work. Yeah.
And it reminds me of a quote Imade a note of from Matthew
Bourne, who was talking aboutrisks that face dance today. And
(36:06):
he said, "If you don't move withthe times, and you don't excite
the young, then it could be adying form." And in terms of what
you were just saying, positivedisruption. I'm wondering what
you would say, "moving with thetimes" looks like?
Yeah, so moving with the times,he's, I think, again,
(36:27):
challenging norms andexpectations that, you know, we
have a wealth of creativity inhuman beings, you know, there is
so much potential to createamazing work from people. People
have huge amounts of embodiment,they can bring, you know,
cultural identity, itexperiences of the world, you
(36:53):
know, emotional aspects, whetherthey are positive or more
negative kind of crystallizingexperiences that have made them,
you know, challenge or becurious or have courage to do
something, you know, there's awealth of opportunity there. And
(37:13):
I think, what Matthew perhaps issaying that, you know, we do
need to be able to giveopportunities to connect with
different people and seedifferent people on the stage
and have representation. And seewhat people bring, because huge
amounts of as I say, embodiment, cultural diversity
(37:36):
experience of the world. Youknow, there's lots and lots of
opportunity there for us. So Ithink, you know, we want to see,
we want to see a range of thingsgoing forward, the challenges
that theaters have got to take arisk sometimes to take on new
work, whether that be from sortof early career. choreographers,
(38:00):
for example, artists, whoare still experimenting with
their work, and need an audience,need a forum, need a critique, or
whether it is those sorts ofbigger companies that perhaps
they haven't seen before.Sometimes you've got to take a
risk and realize that, you know,we've got to sometimes educate
audiences as well, to be open tonew things. Because again,
(38:24):
sometimes if you see the samething on the stage that
perpetuates what you think youlike, you know, if you're not
given an opportunity to seeother things that might
challenge yourself and yourthinking, and, you know, maybe
educate you about things. So Ithink that's why it's really
important. So one of the otherprojects I'm doing is Little Big
(38:45):
Dance, which again, is reallythinking about very young
children and starting to exposevery young children to
contemporary dance and workingwith different artists. And they
actually co create the work withthese artists as well. So very
young children under five, areinvolved in a creative dance
(39:06):
process, where they're cocreating work with dance artists
and choreographers and co designing that work that goes
forward for production. And thentheaters are commissioning that
work. And that's been shown, andthat's been very, very
successful. So really startingvery, very young, to really push
(39:27):
the boundaries for the artistsas well, because the artists
might have an idea. And thechildren might, you know, select
or reject that. And so really,the artists been educated by
very, very young children. Sothat's just another example
where we can start, you know,really diversifying practice.
And not necessarily justthinking, you know, we're the
ones that are going to beinvolved in that practice.
(39:49):
Yeah, no, it's very interesting,because there's a strong case
isn't there for dance to beincluded as an important part of
the school curriculum as yousay, starting at an early age,
but of course, unfortunately,provision today at state schools
for for the arts is is very,very poor. There have been
(40:12):
systematic cuts. So I'mwondering, whilst you can see
there is that clear case,there's those benefits, for
example, that healthy openness,that curiosity of the mind, in
terms of what you were saying atthe beginning, learning
discipline, learning, stillness,in fact, is, you know, is all as
(40:33):
important as those physicalbenefits. But what would you say
are the correlations that areperhaps not better understood in
terms of dance and wellbeing,translating into wider positive
results in education?
(40:55):
So, as I said, sort of, at thestart, when we were talking
about my own background, I thinkdance is very cognitive, you
know, you're thinking all thetime in dance, but what it does
well, is because you'reconnecting the body and mind,
it's very inclusive in that way.Because for, you know, all of
(41:19):
us, we need to move. Andunfortunately, in our education
system at the moment, right,from, you know, very young
children, up to our, you know,secondary, there's a lot of
being routed to one place, interms of how you're educated.
So, you know, often very youngchildren are routed to seats for
(41:40):
long periods of time. Andsimilarly, in secondary, you
know, there's an awful lot ofcurriculum to cover. And there's
an awful lot, you know, thatthey, they learn, often in a
kind of seated position. Whereaswith dance, and with movement,
you know, to move it's, as thephysical benefits, of course,
(42:01):
you know, there is opportunitiesto build fitness, there is
opportunities for strength andconditioning, there's
opportunities for coordination,control, all of those sorts of
things. So there's the physicalhealth benefits where you've got
what you might have with othersports, for example, or
gymnastics, you know, you havethose benefits. But what's
(42:21):
different about dance is you'regetting wider benefits. So
you're connecting body and mind,because you're having to think
you're having to think beyondwhat you might do in a sports
relationship. For example, ofcourse, you're thinking about
different tactics or somethinglike this. But if you're
developing creativity, if you'redeveloping, you know, a way of
(42:42):
making a solo piece of work,let's say, you're thinking like,
you might think, in terms ofconstructing an essay. So you're
thinking about how you're goingto watch your idea how you're
going to construct your idea.And, you know, in terms of
words, what movements are yougoing to be using? How are you
(43:03):
going to punctuate thosemovements? So you know, as we
might have commas, or full stops, how you might structure
that movement in some way? Howyou might have a beginning,
middle and end of some sort? Howare you going to really engage
with the audience? How are yougoing to meaning make all of
those things come through danceexperiences, in the more
(43:24):
creative way, if you'reconnecting with other people,
again, you're working together,you're problem solving, you're
trying to make somethingtogether. So there is the
social, but also, as I say, thecognitive aspect, with that sort
of trying to engage with who'sgoing to lead who's going to
(43:45):
follow? How are you going toarticulate what you might do
together, you know, in words oror nonverbal. So, dance, for me
is a hugely important part ofthe curriculum, because it does
offer, you know, as I say, thesort of physical, social,
emotional, cultural benefits aswell because people can share
(44:08):
their experiences of the worldthrough their creativity and
through each other. And there'salso huge amounts of, you know,
as I say, group workingleadership, articulation, and
that can have a benefit in theclassroom as well with other
subjects, you know, in the waythat you think and learn.
Absolutely,
and all of those skills thatyou've identified, and the
(44:30):
significant research that's beenundertaken at the Sydney de Haan
Center really speaks to anabsolutely wonderful, it's one of
my most favorite documentariesand I know I've mentioned it to
you in a previous chat is MadHot Ballroom. So for the
listeners Mad Hot Ballroom, wasshot in America in 2005. You can
(44:54):
still find it online. And it'sabsolutely fantastic. And just
to give this example becauseit really speaks to everything
you've just said. This was adocumentary that involved
children in New York at threedifferent schools. And there
were all sorts of differentsocial depravations and
(45:18):
backgrounds and ballroomdancing was introduced. And from
the outset, that could have justlooked almost too ridiculous for
words. But the transformativeprocess of introducing ballroom
dancing to these children wasabsolutely phenomenal. It's
(45:42):
joyous. And it absolutelytransformed their confidence and
their wider outcomes and theresults in other subjects were
all climbing, everything wasimproving. And I think it was
really, that social impact thatyou've been consistently
(46:05):
referring to, that was really,really transformative in this
all the lovely etiquette thatwas involved, all of the
pastoral care that was involved,that actually matter. We care
about this, we want you to dowell in this dance competition,
the nice clothes that go on, thefact that you're leading your
partner onto the dance floor,and also the courage involved.
(46:30):
So competitive dancing, oreven just entering the space of
dance, is asking for a lot ofcourage. And I really felt this
documentary just summed all ofthese benefits up brilliantly,
and is as relevant today. Andwith all of the important
(46:51):
research you're doing today.
Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Ithink, you know, dances
certainly around health and wellbeing one of the biggest aspects
of the work that we've done inthe Center is around again, the
sort of sense of belonging,cohesion, community, identity
(47:12):
development that can betransformative for people. So
some of the projects we do thereor around different groups of
people. So for example, we did aproject with older groups. So we
did a project with older peoplewho had had a fall, or were at
risk of having a fall. Now, whenan older person has a fall, it
(47:36):
can really disrupt their day today life and dent their
confidence considerably. Sooften, they have a long recovery
period. And they tend to begiven two kinds of physiotherapy
methods to do at home. One iscalled Fame for people who have,
(47:57):
you know, less problems withtheir fall, and one is called
Otargo. But people don't tend towant to do those at home,
because they're quite boring,they're sort of given a little
sheet, and they have to coverthese exercises. So what we did
was take the sorts of exercisesto spit out therapy methods, and
we integrated them into acreative dance program. And then
(48:18):
we brought the older people intocommunity centers and brought
dance artists in. And we puttogether creative dance sessions
with the groups and integratedthese physiotherapy methods. And
so people were getting kind ofstronger and fitter and more
flexible, and more stable,without kind of realizing,
(48:38):
because they were reallyenjoying themselves through
creative dance. Now, one of thebiggest outcomes of that was it
really reduced loneliness,because some of the older people
were getting very lonely andvery bored and really did not
have confidence to kind of moveabout on their own, and things
like this, we didn't go out. Andso this sort of program just
gave them a new lease of life.And there were, you know, huge
(49:00):
amounts of there was hugeamounts of joy in the room, you
know, each time we went to thesessions, so reducing loneliness
is another way, you know, again,this community connection, you
know, of course, it had the wraparound with a cup of tea and
whatever. And they just lovedcoming. And so there was a, you
know, a great commitment therefrom people to really come in
(49:21):
enjoy this, this dance to healthprogram. So that's one example
of where, you know, dance can betransformative, it can really
change someone's life, fromfeeling very lonely, to having
this kind of dynamic change intheir life, and then again,
feeling, you know, much morestable in the way that they can
move around. Yeah, yeah. I thinkanother example is we're just
(49:43):
starting a program with somesurvivors of domestic abuse.
Now, Laura Kenyon has beenrunning this with groups of
dancers, who are professionaldancers, but have had
experiences of domestic abuseand we're going to be rolling
this out with widerpopulations of people who are
(50:04):
survivors of domestic abuse, andusing dance as a way of really
expressing some of that kind oftraumatic experience, but then,
you know, utilizing that forcreative aspects and building
people's confidence and identityand value again. And so that's
another project that's, that'scoming soon, which we're really
(50:26):
excited about. Yeah,
and I know that you can seeonline at the moment, examples
of this work with the artisticdirector, Laura Kenyon. And I
really do encourage people totake a look, because this space
of dance responding to somethingas traumatic as domestic
violence, for example, is soimportant, because of course,
(50:50):
dance, or the arts in generalhave such a significant role in
terms of trauma, and being ableto either express that trauma or
even to just simply startapproaching trauma in order to
start recovering. Absolutely.
And I think, you know, TalkingTherapies doesn't work for
(51:11):
everybody. You know, sometimespeople don't want to face some
of those things in throughwords. Sometimes they do. I
mean, you know, poetry, forexample, is a way where they can
face those things through wordswithout talking therapy as such,
but I think what dance and, youknow, broader arts
(51:32):
opportunities, whether that's,you know, drawing sculpture,
fine art, theater, whatever itmight be, they do offer a forum
for people to explore at theirown pace, to examine some of
these really challenging momentsin life. And then to make
(51:53):
choices about what they reallywant to investigate for
themselves. And in doing that,you know, we can offer a safe
space, a forum, that is, youknow, carefully constructed an
enabling environment, wherepeople can, you know, take small
steps, or big strides, whatever,you know, whatever is helpful,
(52:15):
and we will help them, you know,begin to come to terms with or
accept or move forward orbecome, or evolve, you know, as,
as kind of a new person throughthis experience, of support and
challenge to create somethingthat can be expressive, can be
(52:43):
kind of very big and bold, orcan be very small, and simple
and insular, but it makes hugemeaning to that person. And, you
know, can really, again, betransformative and helpful, if
done in the right way. So, youknow, I really believe in that
way, dance and, you know, movement practices, opportunities
(53:07):
like that can be life changingcan can be transformative. Yeah,
absolutely. And it's interestingwhen we reflect on the idea of
the courage that's involved,when we want to change our own
lives, or heal or have to facecertain things, or even just to
(53:28):
simply choose to be a performer.And of course, there are other
struggles and difficulties and your book certainly addresses
the risks that dancers can facein terms of unnatural demands,
(53:50):
if you like, particularly goingback to the idea of body
expectations, and I know thatyou've written about eating
disorders, pain, anxiety,addiction, and and even post
traumatic stress disorder can bepart of the dance world, or
(54:10):
perhaps more specifically, theballet world. There's a huge
struggle, in fact, betweencourage and conflict, and I
wondered how you see those areasbeing addressed today. Those
unhealthy demands, if you like,on professional dancers.
(54:31):
Yeah, yes. So this work waswork where I attract young dancers
as they were becoming dancers.It was a longitudinal study. And
it looked at all of the aspectsof becoming a dancer,
particularly a ballet dancer.And I still have some of those
(54:52):
young dancers who were involved in that early study that I'm still
in touch with. And I've trackedthem through to see how they've
developed in their profession.So I think can, you know in
terms of the sort of ballerinastereotype, it does represent
the sort of social culturalrepresentations and
contradictions really. So, youknow, on the one hand a ballerina
(55:15):
is, it sort of demonstratesartistry, technical mastery
strength. Ballet is an areawhere women dominate as dancers
and teachers actually, and iswell funded, you know, becoming
part of a company is huge,kudos, kudos, you get, you know,
multiple support teams aroundyou, making sure that you
(55:38):
thrive. But on the other hand,ballet is quite restrictive.
And there's a limitation.Because it is quite technically
driven. So that creativity isnot so much now, because there
are much more versions ofballets and more creativity
(56:00):
coming through. But it can bequite restrictive, and
technically driven. Andsometimes, ballet dancers lack
agency. So traditional balletmethods are quite authoritarian
(56:20):
in sort of ballet teaching. Andso, you know, the ballet dancer
isn't really supposed toquestion. And there are
particular physical mentaldemands on ballet dancers. So,
you know, there is anexpectation of particular
ballet, body size, shape, andthat does bring with it, some
risks, some tensions, somechallenge some pressures. And so
(56:45):
there is evidence, from thestudies that I've undertaken,
that study that I've mentioned,and others, as in other asset
exports, actually, as well. Sowhen you have, you know, a big
focus on asset aesthetics andparticular size, shape of
bodies, and so on, that can havean impact on people whose bodies
(57:09):
maybe don't fit, and, or theydon't feel that they fit. So in
terms of mental illness, youknow, that can be a challenge.
So yes, there, you know, therecan be a prevalence of eating
disorders, and vulnerabilitiesand risk to eating disorder,
because there is, you know, amirror, constantly magnifying
(57:36):
and their scrutiny of the body,you know, very much within the
ballet world. However, I wouldsay that, there are some
changes, you know, balletcompanies, ballet schools, are
much more mindful of theseareas. And they are developing,
you know, much more kind ofhealthy dancer programs. And
(57:58):
really thinking about some ofthose difficult circumstances
from, you know, quite a youngage with ballet dancers coming
through that training program.So there is some work happening
there. And I've pleased to beinvolved involved in some of
that. So that's been great.You'll know that we recently had
the Panorama program that talkedabout some of those historical
things, you know, some bullyingand some, you know, some quite
(58:23):
uncomfortable areas. So it'sdisappointing that you know,
that there's still evidence ofthat. It's going to take a long
time to change because I saythere are these sort of social
norms and expectations, we'vegot to disrupt them. People have
got to feel they have agency andvoice within that. And the
training programs in thetraditional form doesn't really
(58:44):
give room for that. So yeah, sothat's that's very much what
I'm, I've been interested in aswireless off disrupting that to
make things much more kind ofhealthy for longevity in the
profession as well. Yeah,
it's really fascinating. And interms of the the network you
mentioned earlier, you know, interms of addressing all sorts
(59:05):
of, of issues facing structuralbarriers in the dance world. In
Season Five, I had the privilegeto interview Gregory Maqoma
who is considered a legend as adancer and a choreographer. And
he lived under the South Africanapartheid system for the first
(59:28):
21 years of his life. So he isan outstanding person in terms
of how he survived some of thecruelest and most overt barriers
of discrimination to become whohe is today. But of course, his
dance company is all about thefact that we are all different
(59:52):
shapes and sizes, everythingthat you were speaking to and
the importance of recognizingthat and embrace saying that,
and, in fact, I should introduceyou perhaps for your network,
because his insights,his experience is invaluable.
And also, he's the mentor toMusa Motha also interviewed in
(01:00:15):
Season Five that some listenersmay know, was a finalist on
Britain's Got Talent for hisoutstanding dance performance,
despite having a leg amputatedat the age of 11. So I'm
highlighting these examples,partly because it's so relevant
to your work and hopefully, Ican make some introductions. But
(01:00:37):
also, it's such importanttestimony, isn't it? That of
course, dance belongs toeverybody. Of course, it
shouldn't be dictated by certainbody types. Absolutely.
So I think, as I say, I mean,we've we have had, you know,
huge amounts of changes over theyears, where we do have, you
(01:00:58):
know, companies like Candoco for example, who really profile
disability within their work.And as you've mentioned, you
know, we've had some challengeswith some of the prejudices in
terms of race. So there havebeen some versions, there have
been disruptions, there havebeen, you know, wonderful things
(01:01:20):
happening in the sector. Butthere's room for more. And I
think this is why it's reallyimportant to keep challenging
those norms, expectations, andstereotypes, you know, disrupt
the sort of practice that canperpetuate quite deep sort of
freedom, illness, and trauma,and so on. And, you know, open
(01:01:42):
our doors and become, you know,much more inclusive, much more
equitable, equitable, much morediverse. And I think, you know,
this is, again, something I'mreally passionate about.
It's absolutely fascinating whatyour work and your research is
doing. And I'm hugely conscious,we've raced through our hour,
(01:02:05):
and there's so many interestingthings to talk about. So I
should certainly move on to theclosing question before making a
couple of additional comments.And of course, that's what your
thoughts are on the seriesquestion, Can art save us? Or
should I say, Can dance save us?Or does one dance a day keep the
(01:02:31):
doctor away? Absolutely.
So yes, I think dance can saveus. I think when we dance
together, we get to know eachother. And that's really
important in society. So all ofthose prejudices, fears,
stereotypes, they all go out thewindow, when you're actually in
(01:02:53):
the studio with people or in anightclub, or wherever you are,
or at a party, and you'redancing together. You get to
know each other. And all thosebarriers come down. So yes, I
think arts can save us, it canmake us a much more inclusive
society. And it can make us amore tolerant society.
It's been so lovely having thistime with you today. I can't
(01:03:16):
thank you enough, because it'sreally bringing to the fore that
dance obviously has multiplebenefits. And it really does
need to almost be returned tothe people, that it's something
that is all of ours. And I thinkthat maybe we need to think of
Dr. Angela Pickard formerly knownas Squiggle, as someone who
(01:03:44):
still today has significantenergy, just as much as when you
were a young toddler entering theworld of dance, because it does
take this huge amount of energyand commitment, doesn't it to
literally change the stage, thedance stage. And what we're
really talking about is changingthose deep structural barriers
(01:04:04):
and inequalities. And it'shugely impressive to hear about
the range of work you're doingat the Sydney de Haan Center. So
thank you very much for yourtime today.
Wonderful. Thank you so much.
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