September 21, 2024 • 72 mins
A first for the series, a mother and daughter, discussing parallels between their work. They have both successfully bypassed conventional and formal routes into painting and publishing winning awards and five star reviews. Following her teaching career, Yeside Linney, is a mostly self-taught artist who has quickly accrued multiple awards, including two national awards in The Women in Art Prize. Yeside was born in Nigeria but sent to Britain to be educated at a very young age, where she has lived since the age of 4. Her paintings, be it landscapes or portraits are free of convention and layered with textures, history, emotion and courage. She found she could only paint her autobiography and investigated her Nigerian heritage, particularly the cultural riches of the Yoruba tribe. She, herself is often painted too and her portrait by artist, Peter James Field, has also recently been hung in the National Portrait Gallery.
Her daughter Claire Linney, author of children’s books, brings to life historical people of black and mixed heritage. Claire is writing black history back into Britain’s historical narrative that has been mostly excluded from the school curriculum. Our new Labour government is now conducting a review of the national curriculum with important questions about equality, diversity and inclusion still to be answered. Claire’s first book, The Time Tub Travellers and the Silk Thief, has 5 star reviews from both the buyers and young readers. It’s a fast paced adventure that returns to Tudor England and best friends Zula and Milo, encounter Reasonable Blackman, a significant, historical figure. He was one of the earliest people of African heritage working as an independent business owner in London at that time, a black silk weaver with rare and sought after skills enjoyed only by aristocracy. It’s an adventure in healthy curiosity, openness, exploration and learning.
We talk about historical representation and the impact on identity today, the dominant beauty narrative versus diverse, cultural expressions. We look at how history is what is and isn't painted on a canvas, or is and isn't written on a page. This is a celebration of healthy curiosity and courage from a mother that is "insatiably curious" and a daughter who is "constantly curious." It's an inspirational journey of their courage, bypassing gatekeepers, rules and barriers, to paint and publish with their own permission.
Images from the Scarification series © Yeside Linney
Images of the Time Tub Travellers, book cover illustration by Onyinye Iwu,
with kind permission of Claire Linney.
Discover Yeside Linney: www.yeside.com
Discover Claire Linney: www.clairelinney.com/
Series Audio Editor - Joey Quan.
Series Music - Courtesy of Barry J. Gibb
Closed Captions are added to all audio interviews in this series.
Read only, text transcripts of every interview, news, reviews and your host, Paula Moore, are available here: www.canartsaveus.com
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. THIS IS A FREE TO LISTEN SERIES.
PLEASE SHARE AND HELP MAKE THE ARTS ALL OF OURS.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts
(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My
(00:51):
guests today are a first for theseries, a mother and daughter.
They work independently of eachother, but share their creative
lives. They have bothsuccessfully bypassed conventional
and formal routes into paintingand publishing. Following her
teaching career, Yeside Linney,is a mostly self taught artist,
but she has quickly accruedmultiple awards, including two
(01:13):
national awards in the Women inArt Prize. Yeside, was born
in Nigeria, but sent to Britainto be educated at a very young
age, where she has lived sincethe age of four. Her paintings,
be it landscapes or portraits,are free of convention and
layered with textures, history,emotion and I would add courage.
(01:34):
Her appreciation of Turner'smastery of light is explored
along with her deep appreciationand reconnection to her Nigerian
heritage, particularly of theYoruba people. She found she
could paint her autobiographyrather than write it, and she's
put a light onto her own lifethat can be both unifying and
challenging. Her portrait byartist Peter James Field, has
(01:58):
also recently been hung in theNational Portrait Gallery, and I
think we can safely sayYeside Linney is certainly
taking her place in art. Joiningher today is her daughter,
Claire Linney, author ofchildren's books that bring to
life historical people of blackand mixed heritage. Claire is
writing black history back intoBritain's historical narrative
(02:20):
that has been mostly excludedfrom the school curriculum. Our
previous Conservative governmentmade the inclusion of Black
History optional instead ofintegral, and that was already
narrowed to a colonialperspective. Our new Labour
government is now conducting areview of the national
curriculum with importantquestions about equality,
(02:41):
diversity and inclusion still tobe answered. Claire's first
book, The Time Tub Travellers and the Silk Thief, has five star
reviews from both the buyers andyoung readers. It's a fast paced
adventure that returns to TudorEngland and best friends, Zula
and Milo encounter reasonableBlackman, a significant
historical figure. He was one ofthe earliest people of African
(03:04):
heritage, working as anindependent business owner in
London at that time, a blacksilk weaver with rare and sought
after skills enjoyed only byaristocracy. It's an adventure
in healthy curiosity, openness,exploration and learning. In
fact, you can expect to timetravel with both Yeside and
(03:24):
Claire, be it book adventuresinto the past or through painted
personal narratives that reclaimNigerian heritage. Both Yeside
and Claire open up their livedexperience of dual heritage in
Britain and raise importantquestions of identity and
representation. And this bringsme to the African proverb
highlighted in Claire's book,"Until the lions have their
(03:46):
historians, tales of the huntshall always glorify the hunter."
To talk more about whose voiceswe are hearing and whose faces
we are seeing, I'm delighted towelcome Yeside and Claire to
the podcast today. HelloYeside and hello Claire.
Hello, hi.
I'm so pleased that we'refinally here, and I'm really,
(04:09):
really grateful that you couldboth organize this time to join
me today. I've been looking atthe parallels in your work, and
you both clearly challenge thedominance of one narrative
taking power over another,history dominated by European
colonial perspective being a keyexample. After reading that
(04:30):
African proverb in your book Claire,I saw you both as lionesses
telling your own stories,
and I imagine sharing that witheach other is actually very
sustaining, when the work you'redoing could actually feel quite
(04:52):
isolated? Do you know it'sfunny, I don't think, I don't
think there was anythingdeliberate in how, how these
sort of creative paths haveevolved for both of us. I think
we've sort of been on our ownjourney. And I don't know, maybe
it's just that we speak togethera lot, we read a lot of the same
things. We're quite similar insome ways, that we've ended up
(05:14):
having sort of a, I guess, a bitof a similar mission in terms of
what we're doing, albeit in verydifferent ways. But I don't know
if you would agree with that?Mum, yeah, I think also it's
probably through sort ofcultural acquisition of common
areas in reading that hasbrought us aligned us, I should
(05:38):
say, because I think both of usinform what we do through
reading and as well as throughexperiences in contact with
other people. Yeah, so these arereally important shared frames
of references that you can youboth have familiarity with, and
actually Yeside, I'll, I'llquote you in terms of following
(06:03):
up on that emphasis, if youlike, where you said, "The one
thing my daughter Claire and Ihave in common is to highlight
the importance of education ofyoung minds and adults to
recognize diversity, to developempathy, rather than fall into
the diversive trap of othering."Yes, I
think that's fairly key,
(06:27):
I think, but what we both havein common is that we have a
conscious awareness that we haveprivilege. I mean, I've been
brought up with, I've beenbrought up principally privately
and then in a very white area.So I carry a sort of, sort of
(06:54):
carry a little badge of thatthat transcends certain areas,
into acceptance, into society.But I think as we've got older,
both of us have noticed that weare much more aware of the
microaggressions that we we bothexperience and and I've had, you
(07:17):
know, much more direct,aggressive confrontation. So I
think there's a much more, it isa very strange thing for someone
of mixed race with, for mydaughter, for Claire, and for me
as a black woman to say that,because you wouldn't expect me,
(07:41):
as a black woman, to say that Iwasn't conscious of my own
colour. And I think I've beenmade conscious of my own colour
through actions I've taken.That's, that's very interesting,
and the idea of microaggressions, would you say that
(08:03):
effectively, almost describeswhat you mean by othering. Those
acts of micro aggression arekind of reminders of trying to
either displace somebody oralienate or isolate somebody.
Yes, and and also, I think thiswhole perception of othering
(08:27):
some people don't realize theydoing it because it's an
acquired behavior that they havethrough the constructs of of the
way society looks at people whodon't fit into the
characteristic cultural normthat they walk in. And I just
(08:56):
find it quite interesting. And Ithink a classic case of this
would be
the recent
vandalization,
the vandalization of the MarySeacole sculpt sculpture in
(09:17):
London and and that is justthrough sheer ignorance, where
people just see this is somebodywho who doesn't look like us,
therefore they need to bedestroyed. And it's that extreme
positioning of the other that Ifind very alarming. Yeah, yeah,
(09:40):
absolutely. And of course, forlisteners, particularly
international listeners, the UKhas suffered shocking protests
recently staged by the Far-right, although happily, of
course, the counter protests faroutweighed that. But what
you're describing Yeside is,is a very, very true reality,
(10:06):
isn't it that that willingnessto attack and to other is very,
very present. Yes, definitely,and, and I, and you use, I think
that key word that you use iswillingness, and it's and it's
more than willingness. It'salmost instinctive, which makes
(10:30):
it much more toxic. Yeah,absolutely. And of course, all
of this feeds so importantlyinto the work you're both doing,
which for me, really sits undertransformative education,
transformative education that'salso very clearly with the
purpose to combat racism. AndClaire, obviously, you may have
(10:54):
some comments you may want toadd into that, but I'd really
like to pick up on othering, andin terms of your recent book,
which, by the way, I reallyenjoyed myself and returned,
returned to my former 10 yearold self. Yeah, yeah. And then
it's like, where's book five,mum? But I'd really like to
(11:23):
explore your character choicesfor Zula and Milo in Time Tub
Travelers, I think there's anawful lot of kindness going on
in your book, but also there's alovely emphasis on their
friendship, but it's reallyinteresting the choices you
make. I wondered if you'd liketo bring that to life a little
(11:43):
for the listeners. Yeah, so whenI, so I hadn't intended to write
a book, but I read thisfascinating book called Black
Tudors, an untold story, by DrMiranda Kaufmann when I was on
maternity leave, and she's oneof a handful of historians and
sort of fantastic amount of workto unearth the lives and
(12:04):
histories of people of Africandescent living in Tudor times in
Britain that crucially, weren'tenslaved, but were part of the
fabric of everyday life. Andthat really sparked off this
desire to want to bring some ofthat history to life in a
fictional way, and knowing thatit was kind of an obvious choice
(12:25):
who to center as my maincharacters. Because I think for
me, personally, growing up inthe 1980s I don't think I read a
single book with a black ormixed race protagonist in I
think there were very few blackauthors at all in that time. And
I think, you know, some of theones that there were, like Maya
(12:45):
Angelou, were really writing alot from a place of black
trauma. So there wasn't muchblack joy in literature, and
there was very littlerepresentation. And so it was
really and things have improveda huge amount, especially within
children's books, they're stillnot where they need to be by a
long shot. So I'm definitely notgiving the publishing industry a
(13:06):
pass in any way in terms of jobdone. But things are definitely
changing, and I think it's soimportant that children who are
black and brown can seethemselves represented, not just
as bit players in thebackground, which I think is
sort of the easy fix that hashappened a little bit in the
(13:27):
industry, but as theprotagonists who were really
driving the narrative anddriving the story. And so that's
why I made Zula, who's sort ofmy main character, is black, and
specifically, kind of a darkskinned black girl, and it was
quite important to me. When Iwas briefing the illustrator, I
was like, I want her to havedarker skin on the cover. Even
(13:48):
though lighter skin tends toshow up better just from an
illustration point of view. Iwas like, I specifically want
her to have darker skin. BecauseI think there's, I think there's a
lot of colourism in terms of howwe present black people in art
and in literature, and then,because I'm mixed race myself, I
really wanted Milo, who has allthe best lines in the book, and
there's a lot of my organizationand and need for structure in
(14:13):
Milo's character. So I wanted tomake him mixed race so, so
there was sort of both thoseidentities reflected in the
book. Yeah, and they're suchimportant choices, aren't they,
because this ultimately, is allabout inclusion and not
othering. So it's it'simmediately a positive
(14:38):
friendship, and it's afriendship that doesn't even
have to be questioned in termsof their identity. Would you say
that when you touched on thepoint of black joy, that that
really stood out to me, becauseobviously this adventure is full
(14:59):
of fun as well as theirscary moments and encounters,
but it is about the joy ofcuriosity and of exploration and
openness and being able to findout and discover things, that
does bring in a lot of joy,where as you were saying how
(15:21):
history is represented,particularly if it's dominated
by the colonial perspective andslavery, there is just such a
chronic absence of any otherstory, even if it's stories of
freedom fighters or stories LikeReasonable Blackman and what he
achieved himself. Yeah, I think,I think there is and part so part
(15:46):
of the reason why the BlackTudor book sort of set off a
little bit of a explosion in myin my head, and this sort of led
me down this path of doing ahuge amount of reading and
research into black Britishhistory, is I hadn't realized
just how much the internalnarrative that I was carrying
was black people came from thedark continent in Africa. Then
(16:09):
they were enslaved. There was ahuge amount of trauma, and then
a bunch of them arrived withWindrush, and there we are
today, and that's me being alittle bit flippant, but it's to
land the point that that that isthe narrative of black history
that we are presented with mostoften in culture, in education,
in art, in literature, and wedon't explore the more
(16:32):
interesting stories. We don'texplore a lot of the hidden
history. And it's interesting, I've just finished reading an
amazing non-fiction book calledAn African history of Africa by
the journalist Zainab Badawi.And again, I didn't realize just
how little I knew about Africanhistory. And there is so much
fantastic richness in thecultures and kingdoms and fights
(16:57):
for liberation. And you know,there's, there's so much
fascinating history of thatcontinent, because it's a whole
continent that had a hugehistory before we ever arrived.
And those stories, I don'tthink, are told enough or made
visible enough. Which leads tothis idea that, you know,
African people didn't havecivilization, didn't have
(17:20):
literature, didn't have artfurther back than when we
arrived and presented it tothem. So I think understanding
Black history is so important.
Because, of course,
it's so incredibly disrespectfulto deny the presence of history,
(17:43):
let alone all of the otherpositive perspectives and
achievements around the historyof Africa and the people of
Africa. And absence iseffectively segregation, and I
find it incredibly offensivewhen I mentioned in the intro
(18:03):
how, in fact, the Conservativegovernment made black history an
option, and that was when it wasalready very narrow.
I think that goes back to 2016when Michael Gove, yes,
Earlier even.
Yeah, there was amovement to try and and improve
(18:25):
the narrative. But he, I forgethis exact words. It was
something like, I don't find theneed to continue. The white man
said, the privileged white man,I don't feel the need. And it's
(18:45):
interesting, and it is language,isn't it? Yeah, and it's just
this divisive language that thatis that fires people up without
any real knowledge. And thatprobably comes back to what
we're talking about. Is the rootof it is education. You know,
(19:09):
it's like, you've had Hakim Adi on,on, on the podcast, you know,
with his talking about how hiscourse at one of the English
universities last year wasliterally erased, and there have
been others too, and it's thaterasure that is done so easily
(19:31):
and systematically and under theumbrella of cuts. Yeah,
absolutely right, and I'll justvery quickly signpost for
listeners that Professor HakimAdi is a world expert on black
history and the history of theAfrican diaspora, and you can
listen to his interview for freein season five. It is deeply
(19:55):
shocking and the example ofwhat's happened to Hakim Adi,
the points Claire has just beenmaking about history and what's
absent in history, for me,really does raise serious
questions, not only aboutequality, diversity, inclusion,
but the fact that absence issegregation, and then your
(20:16):
points yesterday that this doesfeed into how we learn and
understand you know each otherand respect each other. I was
interested Yeside in talkingto you about your reclamation
series. From that point of view,in terms of how you've spoken
about having two identities andyour own, your own, as you put
(20:41):
it, "inevitable feeling ofotherness." I wondered if you'd
like to share with the listenersmore about your Reclamation
series and how that tipped you,if you like, into self,
self exploration and beingprepared to even expose yourself
in order to understand your dualheritage. Yeah, it's funny that
(21:04):
use of word, that you haveexposed yourself because and you
talk about it being brave, I Isaw it as a way of navigation,
navigating my own sense of who Iam, of my own identity, because
it's quite interesting, whichplays into the conversation
(21:26):
we're having. The impact thatancestry plays on our sense of
identity. And some people areable to trace their own
ancestral roots. I can to acertain extent that in order to
fit in with the culture that myparents sent me to absorb, they
(21:53):
felt the need to, this isironic, I'm using this word
erase my Yoruba culture. Yoruba,for those people listening, is
one of the many dialects ofNigeria, and it's the western
side of Nigeria, but I've but Ifound that when I was when I
(22:22):
started off doing art quitelate, because I taught English
for a number of years, and thenI came into our main just
because it was something to do.And then lockdown came, and I
(22:42):
just thought that actually myhusband said to me, Stop copying
things, which is quite aninteresting phrase when you
think of the way societybehaves, and do your own thing.
And I had just prior to that
being the subject of a
(23:07):
muse, shall we say. My daughterwill find this amusing. She does
find this very amusing. A musefor a very young aspiring
artist, where he started to makeme look at my own sense of
identity, because he was doingit as part of his closing
(23:27):
fellowship at one of theuniversities here in the UK. And
he was looking at connection,lost connection, the effect that
it has on people's lives, onpeople's sense of their identity
and how they go about that senseof connection. And it made me
(23:47):
think, and it made me think of,you know, I, I've always wanted,
I've always wanted to look at mysense of trying to put down
mainly as a record for thefamily my autobiography, because
(24:08):
transition from one country toanother comes with its own
interesting narratives. And theone thing that I found very,
very interesting from thatconversation I had with this
young man was
(24:29):
it's a work by
W, E, B, Du Bois. He coined theterm double consciousness, which
was published in his authorethnographic work, which is
called Souls of Black Folk, andhe talks about the sense of
(24:51):
always looking at oneselfthrough the eyes of others,
and that one is,
feels this, one has this sort ofsense that that black people
hold an awareness of bothour perception of self and then
the larger society's perceptionof us. So when so this, all this
(25:15):
all fed into my sense of, yes, Ican. I've decided that, as an
English teacher, I decided Icouldn't do it, put it down in
words, let's paint it. And so itbecame a reclamation in the
sense it was almost like anarcheological dig that that I
(25:38):
realized that I was almostdecolonizing my past, trying to
find out more about my heritagein order to understand how I
straddle two cultures. Yeah,yeah. And you've talked about
(25:59):
liminal spaces elsewhere, youknow, in terms of highlighting
that experience of transitionwhere you're not really in one
place or the other at thatparticular time, and that can
feel perhaps unnerving orunsettling in some ways. Yes,
(26:21):
it yes
it does, because, in a sense,you are laying yourself bare by
revealing what you'renavigating. Yeah, yeah, but I
see it more as honesty, I see itis a kind of vulnerability. I
(26:48):
mean, I do have, when I wasdoing this series, it did come
to a standstill because I waspicking, I was selectively
picking episodes that weresignificant in my life, and and
then they I hit one episodewhere I just thought, I don't
(27:10):
want to share this with people.Yeah, yeah. And, and there's a
limit to you know, whether howfar you push your creativity to
expose part of you that becomesa lot, that gives a lot of
(27:33):
information to people and you,and part of it is you don't want
to shock people. Because I thinkI was a little bit unsettled on
social media media, when peoplestarted feeling sorry for me,
and I'm just thinking, that'snot really the response I
wanted. That's interesting. Theresponse I was I was sharing the
(27:56):
experience and then strangelyand very, very quickly with one
of these series I had, which wascalled Emergence, one piece from
the Reclamation series, whichalludes to the Zong where lots
of slaves were thrown overboard.In fact, I'd learned that
(28:20):
information quite late myselfthrough reading about what, in
fact, watching a film calledBell, which Claire may remember,
which concerns a girl who ispart of the family who who get
(28:44):
involved with the court casesurrounding the owners of the
ship who wanted to reclaim theinsurance for the cargo, ie
people, black, people that werethrown overboard, illegally, and
(29:06):
and I found, well, two things.One is that for me, it was
revelation about some of thehistory. But also, which is
really a lot of my art isrevelation about my past and the
(29:27):
cultural past, but but also Isuddenly just, I suddenly
realize that every time I postsomething, every time I share
information because I think Ihave a reputation for text as
well as the art itself on socialmedia. What I suddenly realized
(29:54):
was that I suddenly thought,God, I've got a responsibility
here. And in the way in whichI share information about my own
heritage. Yeah, and that'sreally interesting, because
responsibility is something Iwanted to pick up with Claire,
and also actually the idea ofliminal spaces. So arguably,
(30:18):
Claire and part of the fun inthe Time Tub Travellers is, of
course, when they are zippingaround and not quite sure where
they're going to land, they arein a wonderful liminal space of
transition. Exactly. Yeah. Imean, you could just see, I
could see this so visually, youknow. It's make a fantastic film.
(30:42):
Yeah, it'd be such fun. Um, youknow, or at least serialized,
because of the multipledestinations. And, yeah, the the
subsequent books are dealingwith different black historical
figures, yeah, different timeperiods, yeah, the idea is to
expand that absolutely. Yeah,perfect. And so then hopping on
to responsibility, which youknow your mum just raised, I
(31:06):
thought, from your point ofview, that must have been quite
challenging at times, becauseyou're bringing forward truth,
black history, representation,identity. But of course, you're
also in fairly challengingtimes. I mean, the Tudors, they
(31:28):
weren't shy of exhibiting theirexecutions, which you actually
touch on. We, we think we've gota water sewage crisis now, but I
think the Tudors probably toppedthat. You know, there was some
pretty heavy stuff going on interms of a setting that you then
plant children in. So I wonderedhow challenging that was, you
(31:50):
know, in terms of how you wantto acknowledge those tough
truths, but at the same time,the whole point is to bring more
of the truth of that particulararea or where they've landed, to
the fore? Yeah, I think, I thinkit was one of those things I
probably didn't overthink, whichhelped. So I think I kind of
(32:15):
went back to what is the mainreason I'm writing the book, and
it was to illuminate a part ofblack British history, which I
think has been quite hidden andisn't well known, but to do it
in a fun, engaging way for sevento 11 year olds. So I think that
automatically kind of puts youon the we're not going deep into
trauma and the dark side ofTudor history and but I think
(32:37):
there are definitely, you canabsolutely bring up things that
are dark and complex and grey.For children, you just have to
do it in a way that fits withthe narrative you're telling
them. So I was quite clear thatI didn't want to make it a
definitive guide to tutorhistory. I'm not a historian,
(32:59):
although I did have to readquite a lot of history books to
get some of the detail that Iwanted in the book accurate and
correct. But similarly, I didn'twant to make it a book that was
that went really into identityor race or discrimination. So
for example, when Milo andZula are in Tudor times, they're
(33:20):
not experiencing racismfirst hand. That kind of wasn't
the purpose, although, havingsaid that, interestingly enough,
because race is such a modernconstruct, and actually,
certainly for early Tudor times,there's and there's a certain
amount of disagreement withhistorians, but there's a
feeling that actually peoplewouldn't have experienced racism
(33:42):
for having dark skin. It wasmuch more about your position in
society. And it was only when alot of immigrants started to
come to London, I think, duringthe reign of Elizabeth the first
from places like Holland andpossibly Portugal and Spain,
that there was a bit of abacklash in London. But that
whole narrative of whitesupremacy to support the
(34:05):
transatlantic slave trade hadn'tyet been embedded at this point.
So all the kind of modern ideasand experiences that we
associate with racism and thelanguage behind it that history
is yet to come. So it kind ofgives Zula and Milo a space just
to be black in Tudor times,yeah. But then, you know, Jane
(34:26):
Blackman, the girl theyencounter. You know, there is a
couple of jokes about, well,there aren't that many black
people in Tudor times, so I kindof know most of them. So there
is, you know, I am referencingit a little bit tongue in cheek
as well in the book. But that'sa really interesting context,
isn't it? Because that's wheremigration and movement was
accepted, particularly, you knowthe UK as an island. You know
(34:51):
conquests were inevitable,movement and migration was
inevitable. So it's a reallyinteresting context, isn't it.
Before, and as you were saying,white supremacy, if you like,
had been organized. And reallyit parallels, doesn't it, with
(35:11):
that need to organize economy,status who can have wealth and
who can't? Whereas when weencounter Reasonable Blackman,
it's a complete exception to atthat time, from our point of
view. Now, absolutely, and Ithink it's it's also really
interesting to realize that. Sowe from the historical records,
(35:34):
it's likely that he came fromHolland, as a lot of people
learned the silk weaving trade inHolland at the time. So he was a
skilled, I mean, you can see himas a skilled worker coming and
settling in London, inSouthwark, which was, I kind of
like to think of it as a bit of,I think it would have been a bit
of a melting pot
(35:56):
of artists and creatives,because a lot of the regulations
and rules that were set up inthe City of London at that
point, made made it so thatthings were very regulated and
controlled. So a lot ofimmigrants settled in Southwark,
but that's also where thetheaters opened. So the Rose
theater was in Southwark becausethere was a little bit more
laxity in terms of what youcould and couldn't do. So that
(36:19):
was where the theaters went.That was where the brothels
went. That was where somebusinesses went, and that's
where artists went, becausethere was a lot more freedom
than the City of London. So Ilove the idea that you would
have had this sort of blackentrepreneur and Reasonable
Blackman setting up his silktrade in that part of London.
And it's also believed that heprobably supplied some of the
(36:39):
theaters with silk to make theirelaborate costumes, because that
was a big part of how theybought plays to life. So I like
that he probably would have hadthat connection with the arts as
well. Yeah, yeah. It's reallyinteresting that context is so
important in terms of how hispersonal economy, if you like,
(36:59):
was enabled because of thattheater and arts relationship. I
suppose that was the need thathe could serve. But all absent,
all absent from from our ourhistory lessons at school,
unfortunately. Yeah, completelyabsent. And I think it was one
of the things that was reallyactually brought home. My mum
(37:20):
and I went to see a fantasticperformance by Patterson Joseph
a couple of weeks ago. So he'swritten this fantastic book
called The Secret Diary ofCharles Ignatius Sancho, who was
a black Georgian who had afascinating life. And his book
brings it to life in a fictionalway, in a kind of diarized way.
So it's very reminiscent ofDavid Copperfield or Pip from
(37:42):
great expectations, and it mademe realize that actually the
historical figures that wereally know and understand the
best, I think, are the ones thatwe tell stories about, are the
ones that get films and seriesand books, because I think
that's a way of us connectingwith them on a very human level.
(38:03):
And I think although there are alot of great black British
history books, I don't thinkthere's enough stories told
about black historical figuresin a way that we can come to
really, you know, take them toheart like we know Henry the
Eighth and his six wives like weunderstand characters. Like
(38:23):
Julius Caesar. Do you know whatI mean? I feel, yeah, I feel we
need to tell more fantasticstories about our black, British
history for it really, to kindof embed in culture. Yeah, and
be excited about it. It'sintegral. Why are we pretending
it's not? It's it's ourcollective history, and I think
that, and I think thecharacter that you were
(38:44):
referring to is significant,because he was one of the first
black people to get the vote.Oh, wow. Oh yeah, wow, yeah, it
was almost they hadn't, theyhadn't excluded black people
from voting. I think they didn'trealize they needed to. So,
yeah, he's the first documentedblack man to vote but he was
(39:06):
allowed to vote because, becausehe had property, and he was, he
had a trade. He was a trader,which comes back to what you
were talking about, was how wedefine race, you know, but he,
but that, but, but property andwhat ownership was seen was
(39:28):
given, gave you a sense ofentitlement. Yeah, absolutely,
because I know, going back towhat, what you were saying,
Claire, that that all importantstatus and economic status was
really the decider about people,before racism. And so I
understand that, for example,Reasonable Blackman was married,
(39:52):
so that was part of his status.He had the wealth, if you like,
to have a home and support amarriage and to have children,
and also sadly, two of hischildren that died in one of the
plagues were buried, butsignificantly, in coffins. Yeah,
yes, yeah. So there's an awfullot of interesting status around
this, and it's so important. Allof this is such important
(40:16):
history. And actually, I thinkYeside, you succinctly um,
described the power of history.Um, in a quote where you said,
"What I choose to add or remove,that leaves a history on the
canvas." And that's the power,isn't it? And it's the same with
what you leave on a page, whatyou write or don't write on a
(40:38):
page. It's choosing what'spresent, and is choosing what's
absent. Yes, and also it made methink of this, the
Scarification series that, thatI've been doing because,
you know that, and
this, this whole idea is that,you know, Claire alluded to, it
(41:01):
doesn't have black history orthe way we talk about black
narratives don't have to beabout trauma. But that is not to
say anyone listening out therethat there isn't generational
trauma, because that isrecognized and it is a thing,
(41:22):
but scars can tell a story aboutwhere we've been in our past
experiences, and I keep comingback to this whole sense of
identity, because in some cases,scars can reveal our identity,
as with the series that I'vedone on tribal markings, because
they are a specificidentification and beatification
(41:45):
designed on the face of the bodyfor the the tribe that I come
from, which is, which Imentioned, which the Yoruba
tribe from Western Nigeria. Andas I've shown in a number, I
think I've done about 10 ofthese, but I think I've only
shown three of them on socialmedia. In Yoruba culture, tribal
(42:11):
marks are inscribed on the bodyby burning or cutting the skin
during infancy. And it'snot just the face as well. It's,
it could be on other parts ofthe body as well. But I think
the thing, the point I'm makingis that there are sign of
beauty, and there are a sign ofidentifying somebody's sense of
(42:36):
worth. Yeah, and, and also,critically, of course, when we
are looking at history in thecontext of colonial atrocity and
slavery, was a way ofidentifying where you know who
you who you were, in terms ofyes belonging, and where your
(42:56):
movement may have been from orto. Yes, yes, exactly, and, and
that is, that is a story thatneeds to be told. But I, but I,
but I'm thinking really of asI've done with the paintings, is
(43:19):
contemporizing them. And andmaking them much more bold and
colorful, because in Westernculture, we have the sense of
the flawless skin. And I thinkClaire can identify coming from
the industry that she's worked,worked in for many years, but
(43:43):
there's always this pursuit thatwe're conditioned to believe we
should aspire towards, thissense of purity, whatever that
means. And the very realityreality is that flawless,
flawlessness is impossible.People should be inspired to
accept themselves, warts andall which already ties into you
(44:07):
know how we look at education?You know that we need to see
that, that the education notjust in this country, in the UK,
because other countries haveinvolved in colonialism. But we,
we need to see that warts andall. You know, history is all
(44:31):
about understanding the fullpicture and and so, you know, so
in a sense, the tribal marks isis, for me, is a way of seeing.
I think there used to be a bookthat I studied when I was
(44:52):
trained to be a teacher byBerger, looking at the way we
perceive things and ourperceptions. To determine our
behavior and and, and this is tocome back to what my reference
to Claire is, that you know thisdistinctive and alternative
(45:13):
appearances in fashion andbeauty in this country. You
know, if you put up, you know aperson who's got marks, tribal
marks, people have gotthis Western Association of
that it's horrific. Yeah, no,this is very interesting,
(45:34):
because I also noted the beautynarrative, if you like, was
something else you both sharedand and just before bringing up
a specific example, I must add,I think the Scarification series
is absolutely stunning. Thecolors are stunning, but the
(45:57):
faces of the women in particularthat you've portrayed all remain
very, very beautiful. And ofcourse, I know that you've
referenced elsewhere, you knowthat when these practices
stopped there, you know therewas also an understanding around
increasingly distinguishingbetween child mutilation or
(46:20):
between cultural practice. But Ido, you know, I must urge the
listeners to take a look at,well, all of this work, but the
Scarification series, I feltreally, really does stand out.
And in terms of the beautynarrative, I'm really interested
in the fact that Claire, in yourprofessional work in marketing,
(46:44):
you've been involved in a reallyinteresting campaign ending race
based hair discrimination, andYeside, you have a painting
called crowning glory, which iscelebrating the importance of
hair in African culture and as asource of power and spiritual
power. I'm really interested inhow you both may join up, you
(47:07):
know, with from both of thoseperspectives that you've worked
on. Well, I think it's, it'sit's been really interesting for
me at work. So it's quite andI'm very lucky in a lot of ways,
I've been able to work on brandsthat have quite a strong sense
of purpose in my marketingcareer. And one of the
commitments that Dove as a brandthat I worked on made was to
(47:32):
help to end race based hairdiscrimination. So they've done
a huge amount of work onchanging the law in the US,
which is, I guess, no small ormean feat for a brand to get
involved with, but they worked alot of partnership organizations
that have really been drivingfor that change. And I was able
to do some initial work to tryand support some of the efforts
(47:54):
that were going on in the UK aswell. And it was just personally
important for me, because Ithink one of the first real
shocks that I had in terms ofthe world treating me
differently for being black, waswhen I was at secondary school,
and the first time I got my hairbraided, which was I was really
(48:14):
excited. I think Mum, it tookeight hours. I think I sat with
one hairdresser, and, you know,obviously I was thrilled. I'd
never had my hair in braidsbefore. They were really long,
like, you know, I sashayed intoschool the next day, and I was
sent home with a letter from thedeputy head telling my mum that
she needed to take my hair outbecause it was a subversive
(48:36):
hairstyle.
The actual word subversive? No,
the actual word was threatening.Threatening?!
Wow. It was,
yeah, so, and they werebasically like, if she, if she
comes back tomorrow with thathairstyle, she'll be suspended.
And it was such a shock to me,because, you know, I'm, I was a
(48:59):
straight A student. I'd neverbeen in trouble. The idea that
my hair had somehow contravenedtheir hair rules just was
completely baffling. And I thinkI've never seen my parents so
angry. And I think Mum, havingnot only taught at the school,
but also knowing quite a few ofthe school governors, just sort
(49:20):
of said, we're not taking yourhair out, sent me back into
school with a letter that wassufficiently worded that the
subject was never raised again.But I'm very lucky that I had,
that mum was in a position to beable to advocate for, because I
know from firsthand talking tothe parents of children in this
(49:40):
country, that that is stillgoing on in the UK and and I
think when I found out aboutthis, in my head, this is
something that had happened inthe 90s that we had gotten over
because it's ridiculous, andthen to find out that it's still
happening now, that black hairis still being discriminated
against in uniform policies, andthat children are being excluded
from school. They're wearingtheir hair in protective
(50:02):
styles, or just naturally as itgrows from the head, is just
incredibly upsetting andshocking, honestly. Well, it is
cultural denial. It's the sameas you know, history being
absent from the page, Blackhistory is absent, and you can't
have certain hairstyles. AndYeside, going back to your
(50:24):
painting Crowning Glory, whichI'll let you contextualize for
the listeners, it feels to methat everything Claire has just
said is just the legacy ofcolonialism. When people who
were enslaved, had their headsshaved, it was a key denial of
(50:45):
identity, and your daughter isgoing to school I mean, I cannot
begin to imagine the rage. Icannot begin. Well, I think,
before I get on to the painting,I think the thing that I find
very disappointing is thatpeople that I thought I could
(51:06):
call upon for support,
who happened to be white,obviously
Just would just sashayed awayfrom me and and I, and it's
quite interesting, because forlisteners, there is a very good
(51:28):
book which happens to be calledThe Good Ally, which is all
about, you know how, as a whiteperson, you can use your
privilege to support people ofcolor and and I find that there
(51:49):
was, I just, I just find itquite interesting that you're
you're labeled, I've talkedabout language. You're labeled
as this angry black woman,
if you, if you speak up,
and why you're making so muchnoise, you know, because this
(52:09):
happens to be a rule, and thatis the problem, you know,
because you've got the, you'vegot the structures that are
historical and so embedded andthat, and no one just says,
you know, perhaps we shouldrethink it. Yeah, absolutely,
yes. We should ask ourselves,you know, does this make sense?
(52:34):
No-one asked Claire, you know,how she felt. No-one occurred to
occur to them that, you know,she might be upset. Yeah,
because the impact Claire on onyou as as quite young, I
imagine, at that time, still atschool, that's not considered
(52:57):
is it that you have suddenlybeen impacted by that denial of
something you were reallypleased about. You were really
pleased with your new hairstyleand your new braids, and were
excited and wanted to celebrateit and bang, it's not
acceptable. Where does thatleave a child? Yeah, and it's it
very much. I mean, I don't thinkI I realized it was probably in
(53:21):
my mid 30s that I got to a placewhere I could say that I really
love and celebrate my naturalhair my mid 30s. And certainly
events like that at schooldidn't help, but just also the
complete absence of role models,black women in film, in
television, in culture,especially embracing their
(53:44):
natural hair. It felt like weknow when women did show up,
they had relaxed hair. It wassmooth. It was, you know, it
was, it resembled the Europeanhair. I was relaxing my hair to
try and achieve. And certainly Iremember one of my friends
telling me that she wanted touse my hair to stuff a teddy
bear, when, which kind of and itwas one of those things that I
(54:08):
sort of laughed off at the time.And it was quite funny. And I
was like, Well, when I get myhair cut, should I keep it in a
bag for you? But it was thatsense that my hair was weird and
strange and different that was,I think, you know, those kind of
things just accumulate and thenstart to build this internal
(54:29):
narrative that it's verydifficult to fight, especially
if you're not aware of it foryears. Yeah, absolutely. And
actually, we could even takethis, this example of how
curiosity is not being taught ordeveloped or encouraged in
(54:51):
positive ways. So for example,if we're understanding different
hair types or differenthairstyles and cultural
reflections in ways that areinteresting and respectful and
exciting. What I'm interested inis, well, as you know, the
series does explore curiosityand courage, because I believe
(55:15):
the arts actually really drivethat forward. And it's really
significant that the arts arecut because that's also a denial
of developing courage andcuriosity. And both of you, well
Yeside, you describe yourselfas insatiably curious. And
Claire, you say you stayconstantly curious. Surely, this
(55:39):
surely, this is where curiosityis your superpower. Yeah, I
think it's, I think it'sstarting to unravel threads and
wanting to follow them and seewhere they go. And I think
reading really fuels mycuriosity. And you know, from
(56:00):
reading black Tudors, which was,I think, the first history non
fiction book I've ever read inmy life. I now have a whole
collection of black Britishhistory books, and I feel like,
yeah, my curiosity has taken mevery far down that route, to the
point where I even wrote achildren's book about it. But I
love being able to go intoschools and trying to spark that
(56:21):
curiosity with the nextgeneration. And it's really
lovely, because you see,especially, especially with some
of the black kids in schoolsthat I go into, when you start
telling them about ReasonableBlackman that was a black man
who lived and had a businessover 400 years ago, or they see
(56:42):
the covers on the front of thebook. And I remember a girl
coming up to me who was thephysical embodiment of Zula, my
main character. She had her hairdone in exactly the same way.
Her face resembled my character.And, well, that's casting done.
So that's good! It's brilliant.It turns out her mum was
saying, when I met her at alibrary, she was like, Oh, her
mum says she loves books onhistory. And I said, Oh, should
(57:05):
I tell you a little bit about mybook? And she sort of nodded,
and I sort of read her thesynopsis, and her eyes just got
wider. And I'm sorry, it makesme quite emotional talking about
that. Actually, eyes got widerand wider, and yeah, it was like
I could see these little sparksjust going off in her brain. I
(57:25):
thought that that's this book isreally going to mean something
to her. Sorry. I don't know whyI'm getting so. Well. If you, if
you don't mind me interjecting,I would say because it's the
realization of what you haveachieved. And I think it's
really important to state tolisteners that the courage that
both of you demonstrate in yourlives, but the courage Claire to
(57:49):
self publish, to stand by yourcommitment to the purpose that
you're working with, you knowit's a huge achievement. When
you had, what was it? 18publishers or more rejected every
transcript, and how many timesdo we all hear this? I mean,
(58:10):
wasn't JK Rowling rejectedcontinually for example.
Don't mention JK Rowling.
But it's a significant example,isn't it? Yeah,
I think Mallory Blackman had a,there's a fantastic exhibition
of Malorie Blackman's at theBush Library recently, and she
kept every single one of herrejection letters, and I think
(58:32):
she had over 100 and it is, Imean, yeah, publishing is an
incredibly competitive industry.I think it's one step more for
you, because you're also female,and you're a black woman as
well, and you're and you'reproposing something that changes
the narrative as they're allthose things that become
(58:56):
challenging because they thenthink of, is this marketable?
No, I definitely heard so Iheard from one, I heard feedback
from a publishing directorwithin one of the sort of big
five houses. She sort of said,oh, there is this view that
historical fiction doesn'treally sell. Yeah. I mean, she
didn't say black historicalfiction, but historical fiction,
(59:18):
and it is true, there isn't,there isn't a huge amount of
historical fiction there is.There are some, and there's some
really lovely examples, butthere aren't as many as there
are books on fantasy books orbooks on quests or wizards or
dragons, but I feel that that'sa self fulfilling prophecy,
because the industry decideswhat's going to be big and backs
(59:39):
it. Yeah, so the industry hasdecided the historical fiction
for kids is not something theywant to get behind in a big way,
yeah, yeah. But, but also, I
think you had the courage to sayto suddenly go, right. I do not
need your permission to go,Well, this is a bit of my mum's
bloody mindedness coming through.Thank you. Well, we have a
(01:00:03):
family motto that I think Iinvented, which is, this is
normal for a Linny, yeah,because I think when I talk
about what my mum does and howshe's become an artist, sort of
celebrated artist, and anInstagram influencer, and
a muse in her 70s, and then I talkabout my dad doing his seventh
degree, and then I talk about mybrother getting, getting,
getting a Guinness World Record,and people just look at me as if
(01:00:26):
to say, your family soundsridiculous. And I'm like, this
is just normal for a Linny.
I think we're just born thisway. But
it's really positive, becauseit's not taking no for an
answer. But this does take anawful lot of courage and
commitment, doesn't it? Because,yeah, you are made to feel, we
can all be made to feel veryvulnerable when we want to stand
(01:00:50):
alone or stand by something ormake something happen, when all
the odds are against you, forwhatever structural barrier we
may choose, it's a hard it's ahard task, and it's also very
exhausting. It's exhausting tobe a pioneer. Yeah, that's
that's completely true. I thinkit really helped that when I
(01:01:11):
started doing this, this wasn'tabout me wanting to be a
children's author. It was aboutme being really passionate about
bringing these stories to lifeand bringing black British
history to life for the nextgeneration. So it was kind of, I
think I was very much fueled by,I feel like there's a, without
sounding pompous, I feel likethere's a real role for this
(01:01:31):
book in the world. It's not ifI'd just written another book on
unicorns or dragons or mermaids.You know, there are, you know,
there are loads of books thatare great doing that, that kids
can go and read. But I was, Ifelt very strongly that there,
there are a handful of fictionbooks that bring black British
history to life for kids. Andthat all comes back to this
(01:01:54):
sense of responsibility. Youknow that you've that you feel
that you know, you know you cando it, and you've got a
responsibility to just make surethat you help get the word out.
And I think it was just, I thinkonce I decided to do it,
although it was very daunting,and it does feel exposing, and
(01:02:16):
it's a huge amount of work, if Icould go back and do it again, I
wouldn't decide to write a bookon my maternity leave, because
having a toddler and trying toself publish a book not the
greatest combination. But Ithink, having said that, it's
also very empowering, because,as my mum said, rather than
having to be beholden to a setof gatekeepers, you are your own
(01:02:40):
gatekeeper. So if you have themotivation, and if you have the
will, and if you decide this iswhat's going to happen, you have
the ability to make it happen,and you are in a position to be
able to control everything. Thedownside is you have to do
everything, but it can. I thinkfor me, it felt quite
galvanizing that I could, ratherthan waiting for permission or
(01:03:02):
someone else to give mepermission to do this, I could
give myself permission and justdo it. Yeah, absolutely. And in
fact, in your bookacknowledgements, I'll quote
you, Claire, you say "My mum is aforce of nature and proof and
proof that age and time, are noobstacles to starting new
(01:03:23):
creative ventures." It'sfantastic, isn't it? This is the
importance of having rolemodels, and this is one of the
reasons I was so interested inhaving this mother and daughter
shared podcast interview.Because quite often people that
may want to particularly work increative spaces or the arts,
(01:03:43):
they can often feel quite alone.It's not necessarily shared
culturally, even within theirown family, and you have your
mum breaking down her ownbarriers and championing this
space for you at the same time,two lionesses roaring together.
I mustn't remember that phrase.And I know that I'm just
(01:04:04):
creeping over time so there'sjust a couple more things, if
that's okay with you. Absolutely.What I would like to highlight,
in terms of your characters,Zula and Milo, obviously, the
importance of how they arediscovering and rediscovering
black history, and that blackhistory does exist in Britain is
(01:04:25):
obviously all of its ownimportance. But I really like
that these two children areentering the unknown once they
start to time travel. And ofcourse, that means these are
really important examples ofdeveloping courage and
curiosity, being brave enough toget into the time tub, being
(01:04:51):
brave enough to be curious andto embark on the adventure that
they embark on. Would you sayyou may not have necessarily
thought about it in terms ofthose qualities, but would you
say that that is a key messagefor you, too, in terms of how
you're building thesecharacters, that you're enabling
children to think about whatthey want to explore for
(01:05:11):
themselves in the way you andyour mum have become very clear
about doing things foryourselves. I think so. Yes. I
think it was mainly driven bywanting the character of Zula to
have the courage to challengewhat her teacher had told her,
(01:05:32):
which she didn't so thatbasically, at the beginning of
the book, she's marked down forher history project because they
have to draw a Tudor family, andher drawing of a Tudor family
resembles her own family, so thefamily is black, and her teacher
basically tells that this is nothistorically accurate. You
can't, kind of make up history,just suit your own ends. And she
sort of feels a great sense ofinjustice, but also this sense
(01:05:55):
that maybe that's not the wholepicture. So it's about because I
think there is an element,especially when it comes to
decolonizing the curriculum, andyou know, nuances about the
British Empire and black Britishhistory, where schools aren't
always teaching it the way theyshould, and they don't always
(01:06:17):
know everything that there is ToKnow. So engendering that spirit
of you can question the adultsin your life. You can question
your teachers. They do notnecessarily have all the
answers. And there's, actually,there's a wonderful book called,
it's a children's book calledStolen History by Sathnam
Sanghera. So it's a children'sversion of his book, Empire Land.
(01:06:39):
And it's kind of the BritishEmpire warts and all, but there
is a whole chapter about askingawkward questions politely.
Yeah, that's very interesting,and that's learning how to think
and develop your thinking inorder to ask those questions.
It's really significant. Andactually, because I have stolen
time, I better cut to the finalquestion. In terms of asking
(01:07:00):
questions, the final question Iask everybody to explore all
sorts of different responses.Can art save us? Do
you want to go first mum?
Yeah, definitely. Because Ithink I just, I've thought
about this a lot, especially inthe recent situation with the
(01:07:28):
riots that we've had in the UK,because
Arts
is just is is quite crucial inhelping us, fostering
understanding and bringingpeople together. And then the
(01:07:48):
way that Claire is really doingthrough not just through her,
through her, her debut novel andsubsequent novels, but also
through the book she recommendson her on the different
platforms. But I just, I justfeel that art, is a
range of human activity, youknow, and that it just, it's a
(01:08:12):
way that it's quite vital in theway it transcends, transcends
all cultures you know, that youknow, we it's got its own
inherent, inherent visuallanguage, you know, we can we
can be sports people. We can beartists. But I think, it's the
(01:08:34):
way I can explain it is, I'm inan exhibition at the moment at
the Hastings Museum in the UKcalled Black Joy, and it serves
as a powerful reminder of thethis beauty of diversity and the
joy that comes from our sharedhumanity and and it's in times
(01:08:56):
like these, when you know we'vegot so much disruption and
dysfunction in the world, it isinitiatives like this promote
understanding and empathy andunity, and it's so much more
important now than ever that weget this sense of solidarity.
(01:09:19):
Yeah, yeah. And how does thatsit with you Claire? Do you
have different thoughts aboutthat question, can art save us? I
think it has the potential to.And I think it comes back to my
previous comment on the power ofstories, because I think trying
to rationalize your way intopeople's consciousness doesn't
(01:09:44):
always work. I think what peoplereally get inspired by and take
away is their emotional responseto things and being inspired and
having a connection. And I thinkthat's what art helps us to
create. So I think if, ifyou really want to decolonize
people's experiences and theirunderstanding and bring things
(01:10:09):
like black British history tothe fore, I think it will be
through lots of differentmediums of art that will really
do it successfully, because Ithink that's how you win, win
people over on an emotionallevel, and then I think we have
them. Yeah. And I think, I thinkjust, just to underline that, I
think it's also important toremember that our destination
(01:10:33):
isn't just a place, it's just anew way of seeing things, and
that's how art helps. Yeah,absolutely, yeah. And it's
something that you you can livedaily, in your your presence
every day. And what asignificant difference that can
make by sharing thoseperspectives and being open to
(01:10:57):
sharing those perspectives,because the arts offer so much
cultural diversity. Hence thealarm of the last 14 years, of
course, where the arts weresystematically cut. So there's a
lot of healing involved, which Iknow is something you talk about
a lot Yeside with your ownwork. And unfortunately, there's
too much to talk about, and I'mvery aware that I've stolen you
(01:11:19):
both for an extra 10 minutes, soI do apologize, but I would like
to thank you both very much forsharing this, this valuable
conversation today, and I'll signpost for the listeners that
on the episode page forYeside and Claire Linney, you will
see their website links so thatyou can follow up with their
(01:11:40):
work and discover more and stayin touch with what they're
doing. Thank you both so much.
Thank you. It's been absolutelylovely. Yeah, it's
been a privilege. Thank you.
Bless you. Thank you again.
Welcome to thispodcast series asking the
question, Can art save us? I'mstarting the first national and
international conversation aboutcourage and curiosity. What do
these qualities really mean, andwhy does it make a big
difference to our mental,societal and democratic health?
I talk to award winning anddiverse artists across the arts
(00:24):
to explore these qualities intheir lives and work both to
inspire and for us all to learn.I'm exploring why we need these
qualities to help change theglobal epidemic of mental
illness, loneliness,polarization of our communities
and even global conflict. If thearts cultivate courage and
curiosity, I'm asking thequestion, Can art save us? My
(00:51):
guests today are a first for theseries, a mother and daughter.
They work independently of eachother, but share their creative
lives. They have bothsuccessfully bypassed conventional
and formal routes into paintingand publishing. Following her
teaching career, Yeside Linney,is a mostly self taught artist,
but she has quickly accruedmultiple awards, including two
(01:13):
national awards in the Women inArt Prize. Yeside, was born
in Nigeria, but sent to Britainto be educated at a very young
age, where she has lived sincethe age of four. Her paintings,
be it landscapes or portraits,are free of convention and
layered with textures, history,emotion and I would add courage.
(01:34):
Her appreciation of Turner'smastery of light is explored
along with her deep appreciationand reconnection to her Nigerian
heritage, particularly of theYoruba people. She found she
could paint her autobiographyrather than write it, and she's
put a light onto her own lifethat can be both unifying and
challenging. Her portrait byartist Peter James Field, has
(01:58):
also recently been hung in theNational Portrait Gallery, and I
think we can safely sayYeside Linney is certainly
taking her place in art. Joiningher today is her daughter,
Claire Linney, author ofchildren's books that bring to
life historical people of blackand mixed heritage. Claire is
writing black history back intoBritain's historical narrative
(02:20):
that has been mostly excludedfrom the school curriculum. Our
previous Conservative governmentmade the inclusion of Black
History optional instead ofintegral, and that was already
narrowed to a colonialperspective. Our new Labour
government is now conducting areview of the national
curriculum with importantquestions about equality,
(02:41):
diversity and inclusion still tobe answered. Claire's first
book, The Time Tub Travellers and the Silk Thief, has five star
reviews from both the buyers andyoung readers. It's a fast paced
adventure that returns to TudorEngland and best friends, Zula
and Milo encounter reasonableBlackman, a significant
historical figure. He was one ofthe earliest people of African
(03:04):
heritage, working as anindependent business owner in
London at that time, a blacksilk weaver with rare and sought
after skills enjoyed only byaristocracy. It's an adventure
in healthy curiosity, openness,exploration and learning. In
fact, you can expect to timetravel with both Yeside and
(03:24):
Claire, be it book adventuresinto the past or through painted
personal narratives that reclaimNigerian heritage. Both Yeside
and Claire open up their livedexperience of dual heritage in
Britain and raise importantquestions of identity and
representation. And this bringsme to the African proverb
highlighted in Claire's book,"Until the lions have their
(03:46):
historians, tales of the huntshall always glorify the hunter."
To talk more about whose voiceswe are hearing and whose faces
we are seeing, I'm delighted towelcome Yeside and Claire to
the podcast today. HelloYeside and hello Claire.
Hello, hi.
I'm so pleased that we'refinally here, and I'm really,
(04:09):
really grateful that you couldboth organize this time to join
me today. I've been looking atthe parallels in your work, and
you both clearly challenge thedominance of one narrative
taking power over another,history dominated by European
colonial perspective being a keyexample. After reading that
(04:30):
African proverb in your book Claire,I saw you both as lionesses
telling your own stories,
and I imagine sharing that witheach other is actually very
sustaining, when the work you'redoing could actually feel quite
(04:52):
isolated? Do you know it'sfunny, I don't think, I don't
think there was anythingdeliberate in how, how these
sort of creative paths haveevolved for both of us. I think
we've sort of been on our ownjourney. And I don't know, maybe
it's just that we speak togethera lot, we read a lot of the same
things. We're quite similar insome ways, that we've ended up
(05:14):
having sort of a, I guess, a bitof a similar mission in terms of
what we're doing, albeit in verydifferent ways. But I don't know
if you would agree with that?Mum, yeah, I think also it's
probably through sort ofcultural acquisition of common
areas in reading that hasbrought us aligned us, I should
(05:38):
say, because I think both of usinform what we do through
reading and as well as throughexperiences in contact with
other people. Yeah, so these arereally important shared frames
of references that you can youboth have familiarity with, and
actually Yeside, I'll, I'llquote you in terms of following
(06:03):
up on that emphasis, if youlike, where you said, "The one
thing my daughter Claire and Ihave in common is to highlight
the importance of education ofyoung minds and adults to
recognize diversity, to developempathy, rather than fall into
the diversive trap of othering."Yes, I
think that's fairly key,
(06:27):
I think, but what we both havein common is that we have a
conscious awareness that we haveprivilege. I mean, I've been
brought up with, I've beenbrought up principally privately
and then in a very white area.So I carry a sort of, sort of
(06:54):
carry a little badge of thatthat transcends certain areas,
into acceptance, into society.But I think as we've got older,
both of us have noticed that weare much more aware of the
microaggressions that we we bothexperience and and I've had, you
(07:17):
know, much more direct,aggressive confrontation. So I
think there's a much more, it isa very strange thing for someone
of mixed race with, for mydaughter, for Claire, and for me
as a black woman to say that,because you wouldn't expect me,
(07:41):
as a black woman, to say that Iwasn't conscious of my own
colour. And I think I've beenmade conscious of my own colour
through actions I've taken.That's, that's very interesting,
and the idea of microaggressions, would you say that
(08:03):
effectively, almost describeswhat you mean by othering. Those
acts of micro aggression arekind of reminders of trying to
either displace somebody oralienate or isolate somebody.
Yes, and and also, I think thiswhole perception of othering
(08:27):
some people don't realize theydoing it because it's an
acquired behavior that they havethrough the constructs of of the
way society looks at people whodon't fit into the
characteristic cultural normthat they walk in. And I just
(08:56):
find it quite interesting. And Ithink a classic case of this
would be
the recent
vandalization,
the vandalization of the MarySeacole sculpt sculpture in
(09:17):
London and and that is justthrough sheer ignorance, where
people just see this is somebodywho who doesn't look like us,
therefore they need to bedestroyed. And it's that extreme
positioning of the other that Ifind very alarming. Yeah, yeah,
(09:40):
absolutely. And of course, forlisteners, particularly
international listeners, the UKhas suffered shocking protests
recently staged by the Far-right, although happily, of
course, the counter protests faroutweighed that. But what
you're describing Yeside is,is a very, very true reality,
(10:06):
isn't it that that willingnessto attack and to other is very,
very present. Yes, definitely,and, and I, and you use, I think
that key word that you use iswillingness, and it's and it's
more than willingness. It'salmost instinctive, which makes
(10:30):
it much more toxic. Yeah,absolutely. And of course, all
of this feeds so importantlyinto the work you're both doing,
which for me, really sits undertransformative education,
transformative education that'salso very clearly with the
purpose to combat racism. AndClaire, obviously, you may have
(10:54):
some comments you may want toadd into that, but I'd really
like to pick up on othering, andin terms of your recent book,
which, by the way, I reallyenjoyed myself and returned,
returned to my former 10 yearold self. Yeah, yeah. And then
it's like, where's book five,mum? But I'd really like to
(11:23):
explore your character choicesfor Zula and Milo in Time Tub
Travelers, I think there's anawful lot of kindness going on
in your book, but also there's alovely emphasis on their
friendship, but it's reallyinteresting the choices you
make. I wondered if you'd liketo bring that to life a little
(11:43):
for the listeners. Yeah, so whenI, so I hadn't intended to write
a book, but I read thisfascinating book called Black
Tudors, an untold story, by DrMiranda Kaufmann when I was on
maternity leave, and she's oneof a handful of historians and
sort of fantastic amount of workto unearth the lives and
(12:04):
histories of people of Africandescent living in Tudor times in
Britain that crucially, weren'tenslaved, but were part of the
fabric of everyday life. Andthat really sparked off this
desire to want to bring some ofthat history to life in a
fictional way, and knowing thatit was kind of an obvious choice
(12:25):
who to center as my maincharacters. Because I think for
me, personally, growing up inthe 1980s I don't think I read a
single book with a black ormixed race protagonist in I
think there were very few blackauthors at all in that time. And
I think, you know, some of theones that there were, like Maya
(12:45):
Angelou, were really writing alot from a place of black
trauma. So there wasn't muchblack joy in literature, and
there was very littlerepresentation. And so it was
really and things have improveda huge amount, especially within
children's books, they're stillnot where they need to be by a
long shot. So I'm definitely notgiving the publishing industry a
(13:06):
pass in any way in terms of jobdone. But things are definitely
changing, and I think it's soimportant that children who are
black and brown can seethemselves represented, not just
as bit players in thebackground, which I think is
sort of the easy fix that hashappened a little bit in the
(13:27):
industry, but as theprotagonists who were really
driving the narrative anddriving the story. And so that's
why I made Zula, who's sort ofmy main character, is black, and
specifically, kind of a darkskinned black girl, and it was
quite important to me. When Iwas briefing the illustrator, I
was like, I want her to havedarker skin on the cover. Even
(13:48):
though lighter skin tends toshow up better just from an
illustration point of view. Iwas like, I specifically want
her to have darker skin. BecauseI think there's, I think there's a
lot of colourism in terms of howwe present black people in art
and in literature, and then,because I'm mixed race myself, I
really wanted Milo, who has allthe best lines in the book, and
there's a lot of my organizationand and need for structure in
(14:13):
Milo's character. So I wanted tomake him mixed race so, so
there was sort of both thoseidentities reflected in the
book. Yeah, and they're suchimportant choices, aren't they,
because this ultimately, is allabout inclusion and not
othering. So it's it'simmediately a positive
(14:38):
friendship, and it's afriendship that doesn't even
have to be questioned in termsof their identity. Would you say
that when you touched on thepoint of black joy, that that
really stood out to me, becauseobviously this adventure is full
(14:59):
of fun as well as theirscary moments and encounters,
but it is about the joy ofcuriosity and of exploration and
openness and being able to findout and discover things, that
does bring in a lot of joy,where as you were saying how
(15:21):
history is represented,particularly if it's dominated
by the colonial perspective andslavery, there is just such a
chronic absence of any otherstory, even if it's stories of
freedom fighters or stories LikeReasonable Blackman and what he
achieved himself. Yeah, I think,I think there is and part so part
(15:46):
of the reason why the BlackTudor book sort of set off a
little bit of a explosion in myin my head, and this sort of led
me down this path of doing ahuge amount of reading and
research into black Britishhistory, is I hadn't realized
just how much the internalnarrative that I was carrying
was black people came from thedark continent in Africa. Then
(16:09):
they were enslaved. There was ahuge amount of trauma, and then
a bunch of them arrived withWindrush, and there we are
today, and that's me being alittle bit flippant, but it's to
land the point that that that isthe narrative of black history
that we are presented with mostoften in culture, in education,
in art, in literature, and wedon't explore the more
(16:32):
interesting stories. We don'texplore a lot of the hidden
history. And it's interesting, I've just finished reading an
amazing non-fiction book calledAn African history of Africa by
the journalist Zainab Badawi.And again, I didn't realize just
how little I knew about Africanhistory. And there is so much
fantastic richness in thecultures and kingdoms and fights
(16:57):
for liberation. And you know,there's, there's so much
fascinating history of thatcontinent, because it's a whole
continent that had a hugehistory before we ever arrived.
And those stories, I don'tthink, are told enough or made
visible enough. Which leads tothis idea that, you know,
African people didn't havecivilization, didn't have
(17:20):
literature, didn't have artfurther back than when we
arrived and presented it tothem. So I think understanding
Black history is so important.
Because, of course,
it's so incredibly disrespectfulto deny the presence of history,
(17:43):
let alone all of the otherpositive perspectives and
achievements around the historyof Africa and the people of
Africa. And absence iseffectively segregation, and I
find it incredibly offensivewhen I mentioned in the intro
(18:03):
how, in fact, the Conservativegovernment made black history an
option, and that was when it wasalready very narrow.
I think that goes back to 2016when Michael Gove, yes,
Earlier even.
Yeah, there was amovement to try and and improve
(18:25):
the narrative. But he, I forgethis exact words. It was
something like, I don't find theneed to continue. The white man
said, the privileged white man,I don't feel the need. And it's
(18:45):
interesting, and it is language,isn't it? Yeah, and it's just
this divisive language that thatis that fires people up without
any real knowledge. And thatprobably comes back to what
we're talking about. Is the rootof it is education. You know,
(19:09):
it's like, you've had Hakim Adi on,on, on the podcast, you know,
with his talking about how hiscourse at one of the English
universities last year wasliterally erased, and there have
been others too, and it's thaterasure that is done so easily
(19:31):
and systematically and under theumbrella of cuts. Yeah,
absolutely right, and I'll justvery quickly signpost for
listeners that Professor HakimAdi is a world expert on black
history and the history of theAfrican diaspora, and you can
listen to his interview for freein season five. It is deeply
(19:55):
shocking and the example ofwhat's happened to Hakim Adi,
the points Claire has just beenmaking about history and what's
absent in history, for me,really does raise serious
questions, not only aboutequality, diversity, inclusion,
but the fact that absence issegregation, and then your
(20:16):
points yesterday that this doesfeed into how we learn and
understand you know each otherand respect each other. I was
interested Yeside in talkingto you about your reclamation
series. From that point of view,in terms of how you've spoken
about having two identities andyour own, your own, as you put
(20:41):
it, "inevitable feeling ofotherness." I wondered if you'd
like to share with the listenersmore about your Reclamation
series and how that tipped you,if you like, into self,
self exploration and beingprepared to even expose yourself
in order to understand your dualheritage. Yeah, it's funny that
(21:04):
use of word, that you haveexposed yourself because and you
talk about it being brave, I Isaw it as a way of navigation,
navigating my own sense of who Iam, of my own identity, because
it's quite interesting, whichplays into the conversation
(21:26):
we're having. The impact thatancestry plays on our sense of
identity. And some people areable to trace their own
ancestral roots. I can to acertain extent that in order to
fit in with the culture that myparents sent me to absorb, they
(21:53):
felt the need to, this isironic, I'm using this word
erase my Yoruba culture. Yoruba,for those people listening, is
one of the many dialects ofNigeria, and it's the western
side of Nigeria, but I've but Ifound that when I was when I
(22:22):
started off doing art quitelate, because I taught English
for a number of years, and thenI came into our main just
because it was something to do.And then lockdown came, and I
(22:42):
just thought that actually myhusband said to me, Stop copying
things, which is quite aninteresting phrase when you
think of the way societybehaves, and do your own thing.
And I had just prior to that
being the subject of a
(23:07):
muse, shall we say. My daughterwill find this amusing. She does
find this very amusing. A musefor a very young aspiring
artist, where he started to makeme look at my own sense of
identity, because he was doingit as part of his closing
(23:27):
fellowship at one of theuniversities here in the UK. And
he was looking at connection,lost connection, the effect that
it has on people's lives, onpeople's sense of their identity
and how they go about that senseof connection. And it made me
(23:47):
think, and it made me think of,you know, I, I've always wanted,
I've always wanted to look at mysense of trying to put down
mainly as a record for thefamily my autobiography, because
(24:08):
transition from one country toanother comes with its own
interesting narratives. And theone thing that I found very,
very interesting from thatconversation I had with this
young man was
(24:29):
it's a work by
W, E, B, Du Bois. He coined theterm double consciousness, which
was published in his authorethnographic work, which is
called Souls of Black Folk, andhe talks about the sense of
(24:51):
always looking at oneselfthrough the eyes of others,
and that one is,
feels this, one has this sort ofsense that that black people
hold an awareness of bothour perception of self and then
the larger society's perceptionof us. So when so this, all this
(25:15):
all fed into my sense of, yes, Ican. I've decided that, as an
English teacher, I decided Icouldn't do it, put it down in
words, let's paint it. And so itbecame a reclamation in the
sense it was almost like anarcheological dig that that I
(25:38):
realized that I was almostdecolonizing my past, trying to
find out more about my heritagein order to understand how I
straddle two cultures. Yeah,yeah. And you've talked about
(25:59):
liminal spaces elsewhere, youknow, in terms of highlighting
that experience of transitionwhere you're not really in one
place or the other at thatparticular time, and that can
feel perhaps unnerving orunsettling in some ways. Yes,
(26:21):
it yes
it does, because, in a sense,you are laying yourself bare by
revealing what you'renavigating. Yeah, yeah, but I
see it more as honesty, I see itis a kind of vulnerability. I
(26:48):
mean, I do have, when I wasdoing this series, it did come
to a standstill because I waspicking, I was selectively
picking episodes that weresignificant in my life, and and
then they I hit one episodewhere I just thought, I don't
(27:10):
want to share this with people.Yeah, yeah. And, and there's a
limit to you know, whether howfar you push your creativity to
expose part of you that becomesa lot, that gives a lot of
(27:33):
information to people and you,and part of it is you don't want
to shock people. Because I thinkI was a little bit unsettled on
social media media, when peoplestarted feeling sorry for me,
and I'm just thinking, that'snot really the response I
wanted. That's interesting. Theresponse I was I was sharing the
(27:56):
experience and then strangelyand very, very quickly with one
of these series I had, which wascalled Emergence, one piece from
the Reclamation series, whichalludes to the Zong where lots
of slaves were thrown overboard.In fact, I'd learned that
(28:20):
information quite late myselfthrough reading about what, in
fact, watching a film calledBell, which Claire may remember,
which concerns a girl who ispart of the family who who get
(28:44):
involved with the court casesurrounding the owners of the
ship who wanted to reclaim theinsurance for the cargo, ie
people, black, people that werethrown overboard, illegally, and
(29:06):
and I found, well, two things.One is that for me, it was
revelation about some of thehistory. But also, which is
really a lot of my art isrevelation about my past and the
(29:27):
cultural past, but but also Isuddenly just, I suddenly
realize that every time I postsomething, every time I share
information because I think Ihave a reputation for text as
well as the art itself on socialmedia. What I suddenly realized
(29:54):
was that I suddenly thought,God, I've got a responsibility
here. And in the way in whichI share information about my own
heritage. Yeah, and that'sreally interesting, because
responsibility is something Iwanted to pick up with Claire,
and also actually the idea ofliminal spaces. So arguably,
(30:18):
Claire and part of the fun inthe Time Tub Travellers is, of
course, when they are zippingaround and not quite sure where
they're going to land, they arein a wonderful liminal space of
transition. Exactly. Yeah. Imean, you could just see, I
could see this so visually, youknow. It's make a fantastic film.
(30:42):
Yeah, it'd be such fun. Um, youknow, or at least serialized,
because of the multipledestinations. And, yeah, the the
subsequent books are dealingwith different black historical
figures, yeah, different timeperiods, yeah, the idea is to
expand that absolutely. Yeah,perfect. And so then hopping on
to responsibility, which youknow your mum just raised, I
(31:06):
thought, from your point ofview, that must have been quite
challenging at times, becauseyou're bringing forward truth,
black history, representation,identity. But of course, you're
also in fairly challengingtimes. I mean, the Tudors, they
(31:28):
weren't shy of exhibiting theirexecutions, which you actually
touch on. We, we think we've gota water sewage crisis now, but I
think the Tudors probably toppedthat. You know, there was some
pretty heavy stuff going on interms of a setting that you then
plant children in. So I wonderedhow challenging that was, you
(31:50):
know, in terms of how you wantto acknowledge those tough
truths, but at the same time,the whole point is to bring more
of the truth of that particulararea or where they've landed, to
the fore? Yeah, I think, I thinkit was one of those things I
probably didn't overthink, whichhelped. So I think I kind of
(32:15):
went back to what is the mainreason I'm writing the book, and
it was to illuminate a part ofblack British history, which I
think has been quite hidden andisn't well known, but to do it
in a fun, engaging way for sevento 11 year olds. So I think that
automatically kind of puts youon the we're not going deep into
trauma and the dark side ofTudor history and but I think
(32:37):
there are definitely, you canabsolutely bring up things that
are dark and complex and grey.For children, you just have to
do it in a way that fits withthe narrative you're telling
them. So I was quite clear thatI didn't want to make it a
definitive guide to tutorhistory. I'm not a historian,
(32:59):
although I did have to readquite a lot of history books to
get some of the detail that Iwanted in the book accurate and
correct. But similarly, I didn'twant to make it a book that was
that went really into identityor race or discrimination. So
for example, when Milo andZula are in Tudor times, they're
(33:20):
not experiencing racismfirst hand. That kind of wasn't
the purpose, although, havingsaid that, interestingly enough,
because race is such a modernconstruct, and actually,
certainly for early Tudor times,there's and there's a certain
amount of disagreement withhistorians, but there's a
feeling that actually peoplewouldn't have experienced racism
(33:42):
for having dark skin. It wasmuch more about your position in
society. And it was only when alot of immigrants started to
come to London, I think, duringthe reign of Elizabeth the first
from places like Holland andpossibly Portugal and Spain,
that there was a bit of abacklash in London. But that
whole narrative of whitesupremacy to support the
(34:05):
transatlantic slave trade hadn'tyet been embedded at this point.
So all the kind of modern ideasand experiences that we
associate with racism and thelanguage behind it that history
is yet to come. So it kind ofgives Zula and Milo a space just
to be black in Tudor times,yeah. But then, you know, Jane
(34:26):
Blackman, the girl theyencounter. You know, there is a
couple of jokes about, well,there aren't that many black
people in Tudor times, so I kindof know most of them. So there
is, you know, I am referencingit a little bit tongue in cheek
as well in the book. But that'sa really interesting context,
isn't it? Because that's wheremigration and movement was
accepted, particularly, you knowthe UK as an island. You know
(34:51):
conquests were inevitable,movement and migration was
inevitable. So it's a reallyinteresting context, isn't it.
Before, and as you were saying,white supremacy, if you like,
had been organized. And reallyit parallels, doesn't it, with
(35:11):
that need to organize economy,status who can have wealth and
who can't? Whereas when weencounter Reasonable Blackman,
it's a complete exception to atthat time, from our point of
view. Now, absolutely, and Ithink it's it's also really
interesting to realize that. Sowe from the historical records,
(35:34):
it's likely that he came fromHolland, as a lot of people
learned the silk weaving trade inHolland at the time. So he was a
skilled, I mean, you can see himas a skilled worker coming and
settling in London, inSouthwark, which was, I kind of
like to think of it as a bit of,I think it would have been a bit
of a melting pot
(35:56):
of artists and creatives,because a lot of the regulations
and rules that were set up inthe City of London at that
point, made made it so thatthings were very regulated and
controlled. So a lot ofimmigrants settled in Southwark,
but that's also where thetheaters opened. So the Rose
theater was in Southwark becausethere was a little bit more
laxity in terms of what youcould and couldn't do. So that
(36:19):
was where the theaters went.That was where the brothels
went. That was where somebusinesses went, and that's
where artists went, becausethere was a lot more freedom
than the City of London. So Ilove the idea that you would
have had this sort of blackentrepreneur and Reasonable
Blackman setting up his silktrade in that part of London.
And it's also believed that heprobably supplied some of the
(36:39):
theaters with silk to make theirelaborate costumes, because that
was a big part of how theybought plays to life. So I like
that he probably would have hadthat connection with the arts as
well. Yeah, yeah. It's reallyinteresting that context is so
important in terms of how hispersonal economy, if you like,
(36:59):
was enabled because of thattheater and arts relationship. I
suppose that was the need thathe could serve. But all absent,
all absent from from our ourhistory lessons at school,
unfortunately. Yeah, completelyabsent. And I think it was one
of the things that was reallyactually brought home. My mum
(37:20):
and I went to see a fantasticperformance by Patterson Joseph
a couple of weeks ago. So he'swritten this fantastic book
called The Secret Diary ofCharles Ignatius Sancho, who was
a black Georgian who had afascinating life. And his book
brings it to life in a fictionalway, in a kind of diarized way.
So it's very reminiscent ofDavid Copperfield or Pip from
(37:42):
great expectations, and it mademe realize that actually the
historical figures that wereally know and understand the
best, I think, are the ones thatwe tell stories about, are the
ones that get films and seriesand books, because I think
that's a way of us connectingwith them on a very human level.
(38:03):
And I think although there are alot of great black British
history books, I don't thinkthere's enough stories told
about black historical figuresin a way that we can come to
really, you know, take them toheart like we know Henry the
Eighth and his six wives like weunderstand characters. Like
(38:23):
Julius Caesar. Do you know whatI mean? I feel, yeah, I feel we
need to tell more fantasticstories about our black, British
history for it really, to kindof embed in culture. Yeah, and
be excited about it. It'sintegral. Why are we pretending
it's not? It's it's ourcollective history, and I think
that, and I think thecharacter that you were
(38:44):
referring to is significant,because he was one of the first
black people to get the vote.Oh, wow. Oh yeah, wow, yeah, it
was almost they hadn't, theyhadn't excluded black people
from voting. I think they didn'trealize they needed to. So,
yeah, he's the first documentedblack man to vote but he was
(39:06):
allowed to vote because, becausehe had property, and he was, he
had a trade. He was a trader,which comes back to what you
were talking about, was how wedefine race, you know, but he,
but that, but, but property andwhat ownership was seen was
(39:28):
given, gave you a sense ofentitlement. Yeah, absolutely,
because I know, going back towhat, what you were saying,
Claire, that that all importantstatus and economic status was
really the decider about people,before racism. And so I
understand that, for example,Reasonable Blackman was married,
(39:52):
so that was part of his status.He had the wealth, if you like,
to have a home and support amarriage and to have children,
and also sadly, two of hischildren that died in one of the
plagues were buried, butsignificantly, in coffins. Yeah,
yes, yeah. So there's an awfullot of interesting status around
this, and it's so important. Allof this is such important
(40:16):
history. And actually, I thinkYeside, you succinctly um,
described the power of history.Um, in a quote where you said,
"What I choose to add or remove,that leaves a history on the
canvas." And that's the power,isn't it? And it's the same with
what you leave on a page, whatyou write or don't write on a
(40:38):
page. It's choosing what'spresent, and is choosing what's
absent. Yes, and also it made methink of this, the
Scarification series that, thatI've been doing because,
you know that, and
this, this whole idea is that,you know, Claire alluded to, it
(41:01):
doesn't have black history orthe way we talk about black
narratives don't have to beabout trauma. But that is not to
say anyone listening out therethat there isn't generational
trauma, because that isrecognized and it is a thing,
(41:22):
but scars can tell a story aboutwhere we've been in our past
experiences, and I keep comingback to this whole sense of
identity, because in some cases,scars can reveal our identity,
as with the series that I'vedone on tribal markings, because
they are a specificidentification and beatification
(41:45):
designed on the face of the bodyfor the the tribe that I come
from, which is, which Imentioned, which the Yoruba
tribe from Western Nigeria. Andas I've shown in a number, I
think I've done about 10 ofthese, but I think I've only
shown three of them on socialmedia. In Yoruba culture, tribal
(42:11):
marks are inscribed on the bodyby burning or cutting the skin
during infancy. And it'snot just the face as well. It's,
it could be on other parts ofthe body as well. But I think
the thing, the point I'm makingis that there are sign of
beauty, and there are a sign ofidentifying somebody's sense of
(42:36):
worth. Yeah, and, and also,critically, of course, when we
are looking at history in thecontext of colonial atrocity and
slavery, was a way ofidentifying where you know who
you who you were, in terms ofyes belonging, and where your
(42:56):
movement may have been from orto. Yes, yes, exactly, and, and
that is, that is a story thatneeds to be told. But I, but I,
but I'm thinking really of asI've done with the paintings, is
(43:19):
contemporizing them. And andmaking them much more bold and
colorful, because in Westernculture, we have the sense of
the flawless skin. And I thinkClaire can identify coming from
the industry that she's worked,worked in for many years, but
(43:43):
there's always this pursuit thatwe're conditioned to believe we
should aspire towards, thissense of purity, whatever that
means. And the very realityreality is that flawless,
flawlessness is impossible.People should be inspired to
accept themselves, warts andall which already ties into you
(44:07):
know how we look at education?You know that we need to see
that, that the education notjust in this country, in the UK,
because other countries haveinvolved in colonialism. But we,
we need to see that warts andall. You know, history is all
(44:31):
about understanding the fullpicture and and so, you know, so
in a sense, the tribal marks isis, for me, is a way of seeing.
I think there used to be a bookthat I studied when I was
(44:52):
trained to be a teacher byBerger, looking at the way we
perceive things and ourperceptions. To determine our
behavior and and, and this is tocome back to what my reference
to Claire is, that you know thisdistinctive and alternative
(45:13):
appearances in fashion andbeauty in this country. You
know, if you put up, you know aperson who's got marks, tribal
marks, people have gotthis Western Association of
that it's horrific. Yeah, no,this is very interesting,
(45:34):
because I also noted the beautynarrative, if you like, was
something else you both sharedand and just before bringing up
a specific example, I must add,I think the Scarification series
is absolutely stunning. Thecolors are stunning, but the
(45:57):
faces of the women in particularthat you've portrayed all remain
very, very beautiful. And ofcourse, I know that you've
referenced elsewhere, you knowthat when these practices
stopped there, you know therewas also an understanding around
increasingly distinguishingbetween child mutilation or
(46:20):
between cultural practice. But Ido, you know, I must urge the
listeners to take a look at,well, all of this work, but the
Scarification series, I feltreally, really does stand out.
And in terms of the beautynarrative, I'm really interested
in the fact that Claire, in yourprofessional work in marketing,
(46:44):
you've been involved in a reallyinteresting campaign ending race
based hair discrimination, andYeside, you have a painting
called crowning glory, which iscelebrating the importance of
hair in African culture and as asource of power and spiritual
power. I'm really interested inhow you both may join up, you
(47:07):
know, with from both of thoseperspectives that you've worked
on. Well, I think it's, it'sit's been really interesting for
me at work. So it's quite andI'm very lucky in a lot of ways,
I've been able to work on brandsthat have quite a strong sense
of purpose in my marketingcareer. And one of the
commitments that Dove as a brandthat I worked on made was to
(47:32):
help to end race based hairdiscrimination. So they've done
a huge amount of work onchanging the law in the US,
which is, I guess, no small ormean feat for a brand to get
involved with, but they worked alot of partnership organizations
that have really been drivingfor that change. And I was able
to do some initial work to tryand support some of the efforts
(47:54):
that were going on in the UK aswell. And it was just personally
important for me, because Ithink one of the first real
shocks that I had in terms ofthe world treating me
differently for being black, waswhen I was at secondary school,
and the first time I got my hairbraided, which was I was really
(48:14):
excited. I think Mum, it tookeight hours. I think I sat with
one hairdresser, and, you know,obviously I was thrilled. I'd
never had my hair in braidsbefore. They were really long,
like, you know, I sashayed intoschool the next day, and I was
sent home with a letter from thedeputy head telling my mum that
she needed to take my hair outbecause it was a subversive
(48:36):
hairstyle.
The actual word subversive? No,
the actual word was threatening.Threatening?!
Wow. It was,
yeah, so, and they werebasically like, if she, if she
comes back tomorrow with thathairstyle, she'll be suspended.
And it was such a shock to me,because, you know, I'm, I was a
(48:59):
straight A student. I'd neverbeen in trouble. The idea that
my hair had somehow contravenedtheir hair rules just was
completely baffling. And I thinkI've never seen my parents so
angry. And I think Mum, havingnot only taught at the school,
but also knowing quite a few ofthe school governors, just sort
(49:20):
of said, we're not taking yourhair out, sent me back into
school with a letter that wassufficiently worded that the
subject was never raised again.But I'm very lucky that I had,
that mum was in a position to beable to advocate for, because I
know from firsthand talking tothe parents of children in this
(49:40):
country, that that is stillgoing on in the UK and and I
think when I found out aboutthis, in my head, this is
something that had happened inthe 90s that we had gotten over
because it's ridiculous, andthen to find out that it's still
happening now, that black hairis still being discriminated
against in uniform policies, andthat children are being excluded
from school. They're wearingtheir hair in protective
(50:02):
styles, or just naturally as itgrows from the head, is just
incredibly upsetting andshocking, honestly. Well, it is
cultural denial. It's the sameas you know, history being
absent from the page, Blackhistory is absent, and you can't
have certain hairstyles. AndYeside, going back to your
(50:24):
painting Crowning Glory, whichI'll let you contextualize for
the listeners, it feels to methat everything Claire has just
said is just the legacy ofcolonialism. When people who
were enslaved, had their headsshaved, it was a key denial of
(50:45):
identity, and your daughter isgoing to school I mean, I cannot
begin to imagine the rage. Icannot begin. Well, I think,
before I get on to the painting,I think the thing that I find
very disappointing is thatpeople that I thought I could
(51:06):
call upon for support,
who happened to be white,obviously
Just would just sashayed awayfrom me and and I, and it's
quite interesting, because forlisteners, there is a very good
(51:28):
book which happens to be calledThe Good Ally, which is all
about, you know how, as a whiteperson, you can use your
privilege to support people ofcolor and and I find that there
(51:49):
was, I just, I just find itquite interesting that you're
you're labeled, I've talkedabout language. You're labeled
as this angry black woman,
if you, if you speak up,
and why you're making so muchnoise, you know, because this
(52:09):
happens to be a rule, and thatis the problem, you know,
because you've got the, you'vegot the structures that are
historical and so embedded andthat, and no one just says,
you know, perhaps we shouldrethink it. Yeah, absolutely,
yes. We should ask ourselves,you know, does this make sense?
(52:34):
No-one asked Claire, you know,how she felt. No-one occurred to
occur to them that, you know,she might be upset. Yeah,
because the impact Claire on onyou as as quite young, I
imagine, at that time, still atschool, that's not considered
(52:57):
is it that you have suddenlybeen impacted by that denial of
something you were reallypleased about. You were really
pleased with your new hairstyleand your new braids, and were
excited and wanted to celebrateit and bang, it's not
acceptable. Where does thatleave a child? Yeah, and it's it
very much. I mean, I don't thinkI I realized it was probably in
(53:21):
my mid 30s that I got to a placewhere I could say that I really
love and celebrate my naturalhair my mid 30s. And certainly
events like that at schooldidn't help, but just also the
complete absence of role models,black women in film, in
television, in culture,especially embracing their
(53:44):
natural hair. It felt like weknow when women did show up,
they had relaxed hair. It wassmooth. It was, you know, it
was, it resembled the Europeanhair. I was relaxing my hair to
try and achieve. And certainly Iremember one of my friends
telling me that she wanted touse my hair to stuff a teddy
bear, when, which kind of and itwas one of those things that I
(54:08):
sort of laughed off at the time.And it was quite funny. And I
was like, Well, when I get myhair cut, should I keep it in a
bag for you? But it was thatsense that my hair was weird and
strange and different that was,I think, you know, those kind of
things just accumulate and thenstart to build this internal
(54:29):
narrative that it's verydifficult to fight, especially
if you're not aware of it foryears. Yeah, absolutely. And
actually, we could even takethis, this example of how
curiosity is not being taught ordeveloped or encouraged in
(54:51):
positive ways. So for example,if we're understanding different
hair types or differenthairstyles and cultural
reflections in ways that areinteresting and respectful and
exciting. What I'm interested inis, well, as you know, the
series does explore curiosityand courage, because I believe
(55:15):
the arts actually really drivethat forward. And it's really
significant that the arts arecut because that's also a denial
of developing courage andcuriosity. And both of you, well
Yeside, you describe yourselfas insatiably curious. And
Claire, you say you stayconstantly curious. Surely, this
(55:39):
surely, this is where curiosityis your superpower. Yeah, I
think it's, I think it'sstarting to unravel threads and
wanting to follow them and seewhere they go. And I think
reading really fuels mycuriosity. And you know, from
(56:00):
reading black Tudors, which was,I think, the first history non
fiction book I've ever read inmy life. I now have a whole
collection of black Britishhistory books, and I feel like,
yeah, my curiosity has taken mevery far down that route, to the
point where I even wrote achildren's book about it. But I
love being able to go intoschools and trying to spark that
(56:21):
curiosity with the nextgeneration. And it's really
lovely, because you see,especially, especially with some
of the black kids in schoolsthat I go into, when you start
telling them about ReasonableBlackman that was a black man
who lived and had a businessover 400 years ago, or they see
(56:42):
the covers on the front of thebook. And I remember a girl
coming up to me who was thephysical embodiment of Zula, my
main character. She had her hairdone in exactly the same way.
Her face resembled my character.And, well, that's casting done.
So that's good! It's brilliant.It turns out her mum was
saying, when I met her at alibrary, she was like, Oh, her
mum says she loves books onhistory. And I said, Oh, should
(57:05):
I tell you a little bit about mybook? And she sort of nodded,
and I sort of read her thesynopsis, and her eyes just got
wider. And I'm sorry, it makesme quite emotional talking about
that. Actually, eyes got widerand wider, and yeah, it was like
I could see these little sparksjust going off in her brain. I
(57:25):
thought that that's this book isreally going to mean something
to her. Sorry. I don't know whyI'm getting so. Well. If you, if
you don't mind me interjecting,I would say because it's the
realization of what you haveachieved. And I think it's
really important to state tolisteners that the courage that
both of you demonstrate in yourlives, but the courage Claire to
(57:49):
self publish, to stand by yourcommitment to the purpose that
you're working with, you knowit's a huge achievement. When
you had, what was it? 18publishers or more rejected every
transcript, and how many timesdo we all hear this? I mean,
(58:10):
wasn't JK Rowling rejectedcontinually for example.
Don't mention JK Rowling.
But it's a significant example,isn't it? Yeah,
I think Mallory Blackman had a,there's a fantastic exhibition
of Malorie Blackman's at theBush Library recently, and she
kept every single one of herrejection letters, and I think
(58:32):
she had over 100 and it is, Imean, yeah, publishing is an
incredibly competitive industry.I think it's one step more for
you, because you're also female,and you're a black woman as
well, and you're and you'reproposing something that changes
the narrative as they're allthose things that become
(58:56):
challenging because they thenthink of, is this marketable?
No, I definitely heard so Iheard from one, I heard feedback
from a publishing directorwithin one of the sort of big
five houses. She sort of said,oh, there is this view that
historical fiction doesn'treally sell. Yeah. I mean, she
didn't say black historicalfiction, but historical fiction,
(59:18):
and it is true, there isn't,there isn't a huge amount of
historical fiction there is.There are some, and there's some
really lovely examples, butthere aren't as many as there
are books on fantasy books orbooks on quests or wizards or
dragons, but I feel that that'sa self fulfilling prophecy,
because the industry decideswhat's going to be big and backs
(59:39):
it. Yeah, so the industry hasdecided the historical fiction
for kids is not something theywant to get behind in a big way,
yeah, yeah. But, but also, I
think you had the courage to sayto suddenly go, right. I do not
need your permission to go,Well, this is a bit of my mum's
bloody mindedness coming through.Thank you. Well, we have a
(01:00:03):
family motto that I think Iinvented, which is, this is
normal for a Linny, yeah,because I think when I talk
about what my mum does and howshe's become an artist, sort of
celebrated artist, and anInstagram influencer, and
a muse in her 70s, and then I talkabout my dad doing his seventh
degree, and then I talk about mybrother getting, getting,
getting a Guinness World Record,and people just look at me as if
(01:00:26):
to say, your family soundsridiculous. And I'm like, this
is just normal for a Linny.
I think we're just born thisway. But
it's really positive, becauseit's not taking no for an
answer. But this does take anawful lot of courage and
commitment, doesn't it? Because,yeah, you are made to feel, we
can all be made to feel veryvulnerable when we want to stand
(01:00:50):
alone or stand by something ormake something happen, when all
the odds are against you, forwhatever structural barrier we
may choose, it's a hard it's ahard task, and it's also very
exhausting. It's exhausting tobe a pioneer. Yeah, that's
that's completely true. I thinkit really helped that when I
(01:01:11):
started doing this, this wasn'tabout me wanting to be a
children's author. It was aboutme being really passionate about
bringing these stories to lifeand bringing black British
history to life for the nextgeneration. So it was kind of, I
think I was very much fueled by,I feel like there's a, without
sounding pompous, I feel likethere's a real role for this
(01:01:31):
book in the world. It's not ifI'd just written another book on
unicorns or dragons or mermaids.You know, there are, you know,
there are loads of books thatare great doing that, that kids
can go and read. But I was, Ifelt very strongly that there,
there are a handful of fictionbooks that bring black British
history to life for kids. Andthat all comes back to this
(01:01:54):
sense of responsibility. Youknow that you've that you feel
that you know, you know you cando it, and you've got a
responsibility to just make surethat you help get the word out.
And I think it was just, I thinkonce I decided to do it,
although it was very daunting,and it does feel exposing, and
(01:02:16):
it's a huge amount of work, if Icould go back and do it again, I
wouldn't decide to write a bookon my maternity leave, because
having a toddler and trying toself publish a book not the
greatest combination. But Ithink, having said that, it's
also very empowering, because,as my mum said, rather than
having to be beholden to a setof gatekeepers, you are your own
(01:02:40):
gatekeeper. So if you have themotivation, and if you have the
will, and if you decide this iswhat's going to happen, you have
the ability to make it happen,and you are in a position to be
able to control everything. Thedownside is you have to do
everything, but it can. I thinkfor me, it felt quite
galvanizing that I could, ratherthan waiting for permission or
(01:03:02):
someone else to give mepermission to do this, I could
give myself permission and justdo it. Yeah, absolutely. And in
fact, in your bookacknowledgements, I'll quote
you, Claire, you say "My mum is aforce of nature and proof and
proof that age and time, are noobstacles to starting new
(01:03:23):
creative ventures." It'sfantastic, isn't it? This is the
importance of having rolemodels, and this is one of the
reasons I was so interested inhaving this mother and daughter
shared podcast interview.Because quite often people that
may want to particularly work increative spaces or the arts,
(01:03:43):
they can often feel quite alone.It's not necessarily shared
culturally, even within theirown family, and you have your
mum breaking down her ownbarriers and championing this
space for you at the same time,two lionesses roaring together.
I mustn't remember that phrase.And I know that I'm just
(01:04:04):
creeping over time so there'sjust a couple more things, if
that's okay with you. Absolutely.What I would like to highlight,
in terms of your characters,Zula and Milo, obviously, the
importance of how they arediscovering and rediscovering
black history, and that blackhistory does exist in Britain is
(01:04:25):
obviously all of its ownimportance. But I really like
that these two children areentering the unknown once they
start to time travel. And ofcourse, that means these are
really important examples ofdeveloping courage and
curiosity, being brave enough toget into the time tub, being
(01:04:51):
brave enough to be curious andto embark on the adventure that
they embark on. Would you sayyou may not have necessarily
thought about it in terms ofthose qualities, but would you
say that that is a key messagefor you, too, in terms of how
you're building thesecharacters, that you're enabling
children to think about whatthey want to explore for
(01:05:11):
themselves in the way you andyour mum have become very clear
about doing things foryourselves. I think so. Yes. I
think it was mainly driven bywanting the character of Zula to
have the courage to challengewhat her teacher had told her,
(01:05:32):
which she didn't so thatbasically, at the beginning of
the book, she's marked down forher history project because they
have to draw a Tudor family, andher drawing of a Tudor family
resembles her own family, so thefamily is black, and her teacher
basically tells that this is nothistorically accurate. You
can't, kind of make up history,just suit your own ends. And she
sort of feels a great sense ofinjustice, but also this sense
(01:05:55):
that maybe that's not the wholepicture. So it's about because I
think there is an element,especially when it comes to
decolonizing the curriculum, andyou know, nuances about the
British Empire and black Britishhistory, where schools aren't
always teaching it the way theyshould, and they don't always
(01:06:17):
know everything that there is ToKnow. So engendering that spirit
of you can question the adultsin your life. You can question
your teachers. They do notnecessarily have all the
answers. And there's, actually,there's a wonderful book called,
it's a children's book calledStolen History by Sathnam
Sanghera. So it's a children'sversion of his book, Empire Land.
(01:06:39):
And it's kind of the BritishEmpire warts and all, but there
is a whole chapter about askingawkward questions politely.
Yeah, that's very interesting,and that's learning how to think
and develop your thinking inorder to ask those questions.
It's really significant. Andactually, because I have stolen
time, I better cut to the finalquestion. In terms of asking
(01:07:00):
questions, the final question Iask everybody to explore all
sorts of different responses.Can art save us? Do
you want to go first mum?
Yeah, definitely. Because Ithink I just, I've thought
about this a lot, especially inthe recent situation with the
(01:07:28):
riots that we've had in the UK,because
Arts
is just is is quite crucial inhelping us, fostering
understanding and bringingpeople together. And then the
(01:07:48):
way that Claire is really doingthrough not just through her,
through her, her debut novel andsubsequent novels, but also
through the book she recommendson her on the different
platforms. But I just, I justfeel that art, is a
range of human activity, youknow, and that it just, it's a
(01:08:12):
way that it's quite vital in theway it transcends, transcends
all cultures you know, that youknow, we it's got its own
inherent, inherent visuallanguage, you know, we can we
can be sports people. We can beartists. But I think, it's the
(01:08:34):
way I can explain it is, I'm inan exhibition at the moment at
the Hastings Museum in the UKcalled Black Joy, and it serves
as a powerful reminder of thethis beauty of diversity and the
joy that comes from our sharedhumanity and and it's in times
(01:08:56):
like these, when you know we'vegot so much disruption and
dysfunction in the world, it isinitiatives like this promote
understanding and empathy andunity, and it's so much more
important now than ever that weget this sense of solidarity.
(01:09:19):
Yeah, yeah. And how does thatsit with you Claire? Do you
have different thoughts aboutthat question, can art save us? I
think it has the potential to.And I think it comes back to my
previous comment on the power ofstories, because I think trying
to rationalize your way intopeople's consciousness doesn't
(01:09:44):
always work. I think what peoplereally get inspired by and take
away is their emotional responseto things and being inspired and
having a connection. And I thinkthat's what art helps us to
create. So I think if, ifyou really want to decolonize
people's experiences and theirunderstanding and bring things
(01:10:09):
like black British history tothe fore, I think it will be
through lots of differentmediums of art that will really
do it successfully, because Ithink that's how you win, win
people over on an emotionallevel, and then I think we have
them. Yeah. And I think, I thinkjust, just to underline that, I
think it's also important toremember that our destination
(01:10:33):
isn't just a place, it's just anew way of seeing things, and
that's how art helps. Yeah,absolutely, yeah. And it's
something that you you can livedaily, in your your presence
every day. And what asignificant difference that can
make by sharing thoseperspectives and being open to
(01:10:57):
sharing those perspectives,because the arts offer so much
cultural diversity. Hence thealarm of the last 14 years, of
course, where the arts weresystematically cut. So there's a
lot of healing involved, which Iknow is something you talk about
a lot Yeside with your ownwork. And unfortunately, there's
too much to talk about, and I'mvery aware that I've stolen you
(01:11:19):
both for an extra 10 minutes, soI do apologize, but I would like
to thank you both very much forsharing this, this valuable
conversation today, and I'll signpost for the listeners that
on the episode page forYeside and Claire Linney, you will
see their website links so thatyou can follow up with their
(01:11:40):
work and discover more and stayin touch with what they're
doing. Thank you both so much.
Thank you. It's been absolutelylovely. Yeah, it's
been a privilege. Thank you.
Bless you. Thank you again.
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