January 30, 2024 • 42 mins
This week, Jeffrey Ayres Ph.D., Director of the Center for Global Engagement and Senior International Officer at Saint Michael’s College, joins host Zac Macinnes for a conversation centered on the importance of internships abroad. This episode will highlight the transformative power of combining academic pursuits with a globally oriented, career enhancing program. In addition to student stories and successes, Jeff shares how securing funding can pave the way for these types of experiences and insights on geographic trends.
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This is a program that's very clearly placingstudents in workplace internships to build
up a skill set that they will stay with themfollowing graduation. The students that go
on the internship come back and have playeda big role in recruiting students for the following
year. Hello everyone. Welcome to this episodeof World Strides Podcast, changing lives through
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education abroad. a weekly series of conversationswith international education's most interesting
thought leaders, as well as discussions on emergingtrends, best practices and innovation happening
in our field. Over the past several years, oneof the fastest growing sectors of WorldStyle's
higher ed and education abroad in general hasbeen international internship programs. Our
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listeners will of course know that educationabroad is a high impact practice, and for so
is completing an internship. It's for that reasonthat I like to think of international internships
as something of a double high impact practice.And to me, that's what makes them so special.
Today, we're taking a deep dive into internationalinternships. What they are, why they matter,
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and what the outcomes are for students. I amparticularly impressed with the international
internship programming available to studentsat St. Michael's College. in beautiful Greater
Burlington, Vermont. And it's my distinct honorto welcome Dr. Jeffrey Ayers onto the podcast
to explore this topic with us. Dr. Ayers isthe Director of the Center for Global Engagement
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and Senior International Officer at St. Michael'sCollege. He's also a professor and Chair of
Political Science International Relations. Jefflikes to keep busy. And I know that he understands
deeply the transformative power. of internationalinternship opportunities for students. I always
learn so much when talking to Jeff and I'm thrilledto be able to share him with our listeners
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today. Stay tuned because you will not wantto miss this episode. Jeff Ayers, welcome to
the podcast. Zach, thank you very much for havingme. I know you as a colleague who is truly
dedicated to excellence in higher education,teaching, international exchange, and to your
students at St. Michael's College. I'm excitedto sit down with you today. For our listers
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who aren't yet connected to you, please kickus off with an overview of your longstanding
tenure at St. Michael's College and a littlebit about how you came to be where you are
today. Great, again, thanks for the welcome.I'm happy to be here. In the middle of my 26th
year here at St. Michael's College, and as yousaid, I'm a political science and international
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relations professor, and I've been teachinginternational relations for most of those years.
and been in a variety of circuits capacities.13 years as department chair, served as king
of the college, and most recently as a seniorinternational officer and director of our Center
for Global Engagement. But through all thattime, my primary kind of background interest
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has been in internationalization and promotingand expanding inte So I've always kind of kept
my hat in. to support activities. I've complementedcourses with short-term study trips. I co-lead
a study trip to Ottawa, Canada with a colleagueat the University of Vermont, a three-day trip
in the fall, usually with my Canadian politicscourse. I've co-led a study trip to Wales for
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two weeks in the UK, built around environmentalsustainability. But it's really been in the
last several years, a little bit before andthen post-COVID, that I've poured my energies
into. kind of expanding international religionhere, particularly around international relationships.
That's great. Thanks so much for sharing thatwith us, Jeff. You know, it's always been clear
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to me that you are truly a pillar of the internationalcommunity, not only at St. Michael's, but within
Vermont. Could you tell us a bit more aboutthe center you lead and help us get to know
the education abroad ecosystem at St. Michael'sCollege? The kind of core or foundation of
our the international ecosystem is study abroad,which is led by our director Peggy Nehmey.
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And we've sort of actually, you know, severalof the programs pre-existed creating the Center
for Global Engagement. But the idea behind creatingthis center, which in no way, in no way was
reinventing the wheel, is certainly somethingmany institutions have. But we wanted to create
a hub, a vehicle for better coordinating andcommunicating and strategizing and pooling
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resources to again, kind of advance more comprehensiveapproach to inte So we more purposefully and
intentionally in the last several years havecombined study abroad, I say combined, but
kind of under an umbrella structure so thatwe're cooperating more directly. Study abroad,
international internships, undergraduate andpostgraduate fellowships such as the Fulbright
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program, the Peace Corps prep program, internationaladmissions and then the office of international
student and scholar services. And that's kindof our institutional Eco-structure in the different
directors and coordinators of the programs allcollaborate with meaning to build up programs
expand global engagement opportunities for ourstudents. And I understand of course that you
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are instrumental in and playing a leadershiprole to secure funding. through the Freeman
Foundation for St. Michael's College studentsto participate in academic internships abroad
in Asia. Tell us a bit about this story andhow you turned this vision into a reality.
It's a great story. I was in my last year atthe College and my passion at the time was
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to continue to expand internationalization opportunities.And that last year we brought the Peace Corps
Prep Program to Cambridge, but we also appliedfor an initial pilot grant for the Freeman
Foundation. And we were fortunate to have theopportunity to work with the Freeman get a
small modest grant appropriately so for a pilotprogram and we were able to fund four students
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to go to Hong Kong for eight weeks in internationalinternships in the summer of 2018. And I went
over, actually had been in Australia beforethat and then went up from Brisbane, Australia
to visit some of the sites in Hong Kong andstudents had a great experience, very successful.
So we expanded it to 11 students the followingsummer in 2018. The Freeman, I think, gratefully
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saw that we were successful at the internshipprocess, so they were annually reapplying for
the grant, so we got a larger grant. And thenCOVID hit and we pivoted to online. This wasn't
Freeman, I should actually add. It's prettyimportant to say we didn't use any Freeman
funding for the virtual internships, but wedid work with the Teen Education and Broad
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Network for having students placed in virtualinternships. in Vietnam and then it's been
in the last it really kind of taken off aroundthe last several years in 2022 14 students
went you know it's a Seoul South Korea for eightweeks this past summer we had 15 students in
Ho Chi Minh City 11 in Ho Chi Minh City andfour in also a total of 15 and we're thrilled
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to have 16 total who are working with rightnow to get crazy so it's been a kind of a measured
Process and grad I'm glad that we haven't overdonedone things taking it Her goal is to expand
it a little bit by bit. I consider the FreemanFoundation program International internship
program one of the flagship programs of st.Michael's College who are one of only 30 Colleges
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and universities in the country. They receivedthis grant to support international internships
well it's been such a just such a been a joyjust play out to have been able to play a small
part and the growth of this program on yourcampus and and to see the students who have
participated go and then come back and trulybe transformed. You know, many of our listeners
today will at least be somewhat familiar withFreeman Asia. I understand that you have cultivated
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a strong professional relationship with Freeman,and I'd love for you to share a bit about what
that looks like, what you've learned along theway, and any pieces of advice for other professionals
related to seeking meaningful partnerships.Well, I do have a good... I have a strong professional
relationship with Dr. Jufay Wong, who's theNational Program Director of the Freeman Foundation.
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Jufay is an invaluable resource. He's been hugelysupportive of St. Michael's College. He's been
a real mentor to me in terms of each annuallyrevising the grant and how to appropriately
tailor it to the interest and the concerns ofthe Freeman Foundation.
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it kind of exists institutionally in both Vermontand Hawaii. We do, we have, I have, I can say,
I'm, it's a, we're very fortunate that Jufeiis actually in the neighborhood, so to speak.
So we've invited him to fall, returning dinners,opportunities to see students present on panels,
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uh, you know, reflecting on their experienceswhen they were abroad. And in fact, I, I just
invited. Ju-Fei was one of our featured speakersreflecting on his experience in international
education. He spoke for, he was one of the speakersfor International Education Week, that's November.
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The personal relationship, the professional,but the personal relationship getting to know
him, inviting him to campus, he's been verysupportive of the, of St. Michael's College
and I think it's been clear that the work we'redoing very much supports the mission of the
Freeman Foundation. This is not a study abroadprogram. This is a program that's very clearly
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placing students in workplace internships tobuild up the skill set that they will stay
with them following graduation. We've been animportant to the Freeman Foundation that the
students that go on the internship come backand have played a big role in recruiting students
for the following year. So I think that's beenvery successful. Something else the Freeman
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Foundation has been very supportive of. So it'sbeen. Certainly part of this is a very strong
professional and personal relationship withthe program director, Juk-Fei Wong, who I think
has been an invaluable resource for us. Yeah,as international educators, Jeff, we know that
funding is a cornerstone in our students' abilityto have access to high impact practice, such
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as internships or study abroad programs. Whatdoes the Freeman grant cover and how have you
seen it open doors for your students? I mean,we supplement the grant with some funding from
the Center for Global Engagement and anotherendowment here, but the majority of the annual
Freeman grant covers the cost of placement ofthe internship placement, which include housing,
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usually covered round-trip airfare. It alsocovers, if I mix in some of the funding from
the Center for Global Engagement, we help coverfood sites and then we waive the cost. the
cost of a four credit class during the summer.So we waived the cost of that tuition for students.
It's a course that I teach in the summer. Ourgoal is to have every conceivable cost covered
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so that students are not paying much out ofpocket. It's certainly, I think when you have
the question of what doors might be open forstudents, my hope is that what's happening
is that compared to traditional study abroad,which is also a fantastic opportunity here
at the college during the semester in the summer.I do think we're addressing the well-known
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equity gap that exists in education for underservedstudents who might not otherwise be able to
afford study abroad. We're really trying tomake this a low or no opportunity to go abroad
for eight weeks in the summer. So I think thathas been something that's been notable. I think
we have seen some firsts. expansion of firstgen and participation by more students from
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under-worked communities. Why are internationalinternships important? And how are the outcomes
different from more traditional study abroad?International internships, first of all, they're
important because I like how you started thispodcast. I'd never heard that before, but a
double high impact. Arguably that's true.
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high use high impact co-educational opportunitiesfor students today to give them a skill set
to help them prepare for a career after college.You combine that with an international placement
and you as you if you look at any new high impactpractices we see global learning, intercultural
competency is another one. So we're combiningtwo high impact experiences of international
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internships.
Oftentimes students with a deeper kind of learningthat persists with them a Lot of a lot more
a lot of evidence suggests retention and graduationrates are higher for students are participated
in high-impact experiences but the I've noticedthe internships are again equally immersive
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eight students are Particularly in Asia aregoing to the other side of the world They're
being plumped down in a workplace for up toten hours a day eight to ten hours a day And
then you throw in a commute where they may haveone or two other students from the United States
or another English speaking country, but forthe most part, they're suddenly working with
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a team of people from Hong Kong or from SouthKorea or from Vietnam. Most of these are English
language, though English is the working languageof the site, but I still think it's a different
type of immersion when you are in there andthe team that you're working with is primarily
from that country. And these are the ones thatI'm most familiar with. There are three cities
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in particular that I'd spent, visited and spentthe most time and had students placed in Hong
Kong and now Seoul and Ho Chi Minh city aremassive, deeply immersive urban areas as well.
So the students, some of them are living togetherin these, in these cities, but they're still,
uh, they're not walking across the street totake a class and then go back to their dorm.
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They're hopping on a Metro in goal or they'regetting in grabbed at the uber of you know,
Vietnam and they're navigating in a city ina completely foreign language, so I do think
it's a producing We don't we're told not touse these words anymore. But I think that Students
are getting a lot of off skills from internationalinternships resilience persistence independence
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adaptability Time management independence andthey're getting the workplace skills So I think
there's a soft skills, global interculturalcompetency and workplace skill or there's a
variety of things that are complimenting themselvesthat are producing these high impact learning
outcomes. I love the way articulated that I'venever quite thought about it in that particular
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way, but it's brilliantly put. You know, I knowthat you make a point to get to know your students
well. What are some of the coolest or most interestingthings you've seen your students do? on one
of these internship programs. I thought aboutthese trips a lot and, you know, part of the
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cool aspect is the placement itself. So forinstance, last summer, students were placed
in the Silicon Valley of Seoul, of South Korea,or students are placed near... the War Remnants
Museum in Ho Chi Minh City. I mean, the placementsthemselves, the historical significance of
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some of the sites, or the local areas in whichthe students are placed, for me is particularly
interesting and cool. I think the, you know,we tend to say to every student, regardless
of the major, regardless of whether you endup getting placed in, at a site that aligns
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perfectly with your major or career goals. you'regoing to have a life-changing experience. So
it's that placement in a dramatically differentinternational cultural setting that's cool.
I use it, and that's a term that you use. Ido think it's cool the way students are developing.
I've seen it with my own eyes the way studentsdevelop a sense of humility towards the other,
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towards somebody that they're learning muchmore about. Particularly notice that Vietnam,
which is ongoing. continual reconciliation betweenthe United States and Vietnam. Students say
for sure where the coolest or one of the mostenjoyable aspects of these internships are
the connections they make with people on theground there, people in the home countries,
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both buddies or people in the workplace or peoplein the neighborhood. They meet through coffee
cups and such. I think there's also cool trips,cultural excursion in Budapest, Thailand. There's
a number of side trips, weekend cultural events,but I think the overall daily, I think a day-to-day
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experience, the immersion in culture is so differentfrom what they're accustomed to and the friendships
that they've made that I think are lasting inwhat's particularly for me interesting. We've
talked a lot about the outcomes for studentswho participate on these programs, but there
are also other benefits to having opportunitieslike these, right? You know, if you send 16
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students from St. Michael's College to internin Asia for a summer, then they then return
to the home campus. I'm curious, like from yourperspective as a senior international officer,
like what the effect has been on the campusas a whole? Couple different thoughts come
to mind. One is that we do purposefully createpanels for the returning to share with the
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campus community their variances and their.very enjoyable. They're open to the public
and they're usually very well attended. I thinkthey serve at both information sessions about
these sites, about these countries, but theyalso serve as recruitment mechanisms. Students
get in, they find out who participated in thesepreps and they begin to talk and get a sense
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maybe I could do this well. What else reallyinterests me
qualitative so far. I don't, but I'm beginningto see that the particularly post-COVID as
any other institution kind of reinventing, rebuildinginternationalization after the pandemic. I'm
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starting to see the internship program, forexample, as part of a broader process of helping
students scaffold up different internationalexperiences. So it's a little bit anecdotal,
example is Udy who does an eight-week internshipin Vietnam or South Korea for example through
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the Freeman is going to become interested inand potentially more competitive for the Fulbright
program for example and we're starting to seestudents participated in those Freeman internships
become interested in following up with a post-graduationFulbright or at the Peace be being part of
the Peace Corps. I'm also seeing more studentsbecoming more interested in international careers
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like not just the Ford service. But I do thinkthat there's something again, this as an internship
program is growing that it's creating or it'sconnecting through and beginning to kind of
scaffold up with other opportunities that arehopefully building a kind of global mindset
here at the college. Over the past decade orso, we have all seen an explosion of interest
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in students for study abroad and internationalinternships throughout Asia. What, from your
perspective, makes this region so attractiveto our students? You know, one thing I'll say
that I would rate that we send students in partbecause it's part of the mission of the Freeman.
So I mean, but I like that what I think that'sdoing is opening students' eyes up to a part
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of the world that they otherwise may not haveconsidered. So we have seen some students who
after participating in a Freeman. internshipin the summer have decided to continue and
study abroad in the same country. So I thinkthere's part of its connections of the Freeman
program. But I also think it's like when youwhen we during the application process when
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we're interviewing students and we ask themwhat is it that interests you about this area
a number of them say well, it's the area ofpopulation growth in the 21st century the economy
booming a number of people mentioned pop culturek-pop or other types of kind of emerging technologies.
So I do think students have in part latchedon through that. It's converted that region
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of the world that generally continues to grow,uh, you know, both economically and in a technological
sense. And maybe students are becoming a littlebit more adventurous as well. Absolutely. As
a practitioner in the field of internationaleducation and an academic leader at St. Michael's
college. You have spent time abroad with studentsand engaged in professional travel on multiple
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occasions. In fact, you have visited the TeenOffice in Seoul a few times and I've told you
are one of their very favorite site visitors,Jeff. So I wanted to ask your advice. When
you're planning your professional travel, howdo you do it and how do you make the best use
of your time when overseas? And I was fortunatethis past summer and I was hoping to do it
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again this summer to visit Mount Jett slowlyagain. back to Ho Chi Minh City and visit both
teen sites. And you know the way I make bestuse of the trip is to try to pack in a number
of different activities. You know one is tomake sure that I you oftentimes can't visit
everyone but I think it's important to visitsome of the internship sites. So I want to
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see what where students are where they can pleasesit down talk to some of the actual site supervisors
in the same way I would do here. with studentsbeing placed with the Vermont Council of World
Affairs, for example, I just on the phone yesterdaywith the site supervisor for a student who's
being placed, you know, with that organization.So I think it's important to organize ahead
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of time working with your representatives onthe ground and those sites, site visits, I
think it's important to visit the housing ifpossible to see where the students are living.
It's not just it always is possible. We alwaysdo it. I enjoy visiting the opposites. where
the staff is on the ground there in Seoul, aswell as Ho Chi Minh City. And also I think
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it's important, I get out and I ride on thesubway or I use the Grab app. I try to navigate
my way around the city on my own to get a senseof what it's like for the students. How difficult
is it? How challenging is it? Sample some ofthe restaurants, if you will. Explore some
of the culture, seriously explore some of thecultural excursions. What are some of the opportunities
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available? So I pack a lot into my time whenI'm there and actually don't do enough tourism.
It's hard to pack it all in, isn't it? Thanksso much, Jeff. Yeah, you are of course sending
students to intern in both Seoul and Ho ChiMinh City. I'd love to hear you unpack some
of the differences between those two destinationsin terms of student fit, what your students
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are saying about their overall takeaways andanything else you'd like to share. The first
thing I would share is that both groups of studentsthis past year in particular, it's the first
time we've sent students to two different sites,had nothing but praise for people on the ground
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there and that's critical. That's maybe themost important aspect of these programs is
knowing that there are people there to guidethem, to mentor them, advise them throughout
integrate with the community and such. So that'sbeen both sites, WeSo and Mo, Moomin and others
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who are there on the ground have been just reallyoutstanding and accessible and great resources
and they've been incredibly welcoming to mewhen I visited as well and very useful and
helpful. There's clearly differences betweenthe two sites. Sol is a, I just, I think it's
a, it's a much more, almost post-industrialcity with an incredibly modern metro system
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that goes all over the greater whole region.So that's the primary, they just have to master
that underground metro system to almost everybodytake that metro to get to wherever they're
going in an internship site. And I think thetype, you know, there are some differences
and I don't even want to speak to them as much.They vary a bit. I mean, the internships are
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a little bit different. The availability isa bit different. Maybe more marketing, business
accounting type internships might be a littlemore prevalent. Social media in Seoul, South
Korea, but again, it, it always depends on thework here, students are getting advised with
team reps and we were old in it. We seem tofind it was the case that there may be, and
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there were some opportunities for more researchbased, uh, STEM type internships at Ho Chi
Minh City. So I noticed that. Oh, we had studentsthat were placed in educational research settings
in Vietnam. That was pretty exciting for them.We actually have a student who supplied for
a Fulbright to go back to Vietnam after graduation.I think one of the major reasons he could even
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be considered to be comparative is his experiencethat he had in Vietnam. Again, no metro system,
so to speak, of in Ochi Minh City. It was kindof a different adventure. In seconds of getting
off the plate, I learned how do you grab. whichis like the Uber in the United States, and
in students that their primary meaning or elsethe bus system. So different, slightly different
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climates, different excursions. I think it just,it varies between student, but both experiences
are incredibly immersive and rewarding. Jeff,we've talked a lot about Asia this afternoon,
but I know you're of course a political scienceat international studies faculty and an expert
on US-Canada relations. You've written and presentedabout many topics with us in Canada over the
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years, including, I believe recently on VermontPublic Radio, and have, of course, led students
to Ottawa. How did you become interested inCanada and what's special about it in terms
of academic and intercultural study? I wrotemy dissertation at the, I went to the University
of Wisconsin, Madison for earned my master'sand PhD there and happened to be at the time
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in the late eighties when I was in earning apolitical science. graduate degree that there
was an unusual social movement that had originatedin Canada. It was against the Free Trade Agreement.
It was an anti-free trade movement in Canadathat kind of fascinated me at the time and
I ended up studying it applying a lot of socialmovement theory to it and wrote my dissertation
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on it. It became my first book, Defying Condemnto Wisdom, Political Movements and Political
Movements and Popular Mobilization in Free Tradein Canada. It was fascinating. me the way in
which a group of people that in a country ofa country would be North American, very appellate
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to the majority, but a significant number ofposts and something that seems so innocuous.
So I was interested in it from that kind ofintellectual way. And then just as soon as
I, my first job was in Lake Superior State Universityat St. Mary, Michigan, right on the Canadian
border. In fact, my youngest daughter was bornin Sioux, Ontario. And so for those first four
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years, I had sometimes half my students wereCanadian thinking across the border to go to
class. And I was able to take that class. Iteach Canadian politics here. Usually every
fall semester, I have built a grade relationshipwith a professor at University of Vermont,
Dave Nassar, and we collaborate on the studytrip. And I often say to my students, most
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of whom are US citizens in class, that Canadais a great way to get four of the major subfields
of political science. In a Canadian politicsclass, you're getting comparative politics
because you're studying parliamentary systems.We're getting international relations because
you're studying the way another country is navigatingthe world. You're getting some political theory,
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but you're looking at collective rights andmulticulturalism. And you're also going to
American politics because when you study Canada,it's a really interesting way to learn more
about the United States and how... country justnorth of the United States purposefully was
created to be different from the US. So it'sbeen a it's a great it's a fascinating country
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to study of course it has Quebec within it.It's a has a growing a more prominent role
for and focused on indigenous people, the aboriginalpeople. So it's a it's a very I think important
and interesting study country to study in the21st century. Thanks for sharing that, Jeff.
I don't think I've ever asked you that questionabout Canada. You'll have to pick your brain
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more about Canadian politics. But I want tobring back the conversation to St. Michael's
for a moment. You know, St. Michael's is ofcourse a Catholic institution and part of the
college's vision statement is the following.To actively engage students with ideas developed
over millennia and many world civilizations,as well as those ideas from more recently emerging
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disciplines. and assist students in a generativeprocess of creating new understandings. Now,
Jeff, you and I know that study abroad and achance to develop a wider worldview go hand
in hand. What distinguishes the students atSt. Michael's College and how have you seen
their learning be enhanced by global opportunities?You're right, St. Michael is a Catholic institution.
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It's a small, private Catholic liberal artscollege where the hallmark of the experience
here is faculty student interaction and residentiallife and small class size. And that plays those
activities or opportunities play a role in shapingthe type of education that's here. I think
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students aren't a number. I think there is astrong sense of community here, both within
the student population and between studentsand faculty and staff. I think that's not that
different from other smaller liberal arts colleges.There's an Edmundite tradition here. There's
a strong commitment to service. Large percentagesof our students participate in MOO, which is
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a service program mobilization of volunteereffort. So I do think there's an underlying
kind of ethical sense or commitment to serviceon the part of our students. And then I think
the global piece has become ever more importantin providing students with that edge. in the
21st century. So the college for decades hasdone a great job of providing a classic liberal
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arts education. And by the way, and it kindof a Catholic education, education for the
whole person with some philosophy and religiousstudies and again service built in. So I think
students have, there's an excellent opportunityhere for building up a liberal arts skill set
of critical reading and writing or reading communication,analytical skills. But the global piece is
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so important today. So I think students whotake advantage of some type of global experience
or global opportunity are giving themselvesthe chance to build up an intercultural competency
or building up a sense of global citizenshipthat's going to help them be more successful
in an increasingly diverse and interconnectedworld. And I want to return to the Center for
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Global Engagement that you lead. Is there anythingJeff that you're working on as it relates to
the center that you're particularly excitedabout? Yes, we are actually, I'm excited about
thinking kind of the next step for the firsttwo and a half years. We've, we've built this
center. The pillars of the center are the differentprograms of study abroad, international internships,
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Peace Corps, PrEP, Fulbright and other typesof fellowships, Office of International Student
and Scholar Services. So now what we're tryingto do is think about ways to both more directly
impact classroom. So how can, how can what we'redoing. encourage more faculty to create more
courses with international content. And I'mvery interested in what we're calling a global
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scholars program. So we haven't publicized ityet, but what our goal is, is to create a program.
It's sort of a pathway four year mentoring programwhere we tell students, did you come to St.
Michael's College from day one, you're goingto, you'll be mentored and advised on the many
different ways across our four years that wecan take advantage of study abroad or an international
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internship or maybe mentoring internationalstudents so that, again, by the time you graduate,
you are much more globally competent than youotherwise would be. And you're more competitive
for Fulbright, Ford Servants, graduate school,or other types of careers. So I'm very excited
about the Global Scholars Program that we hopeto. start frankly this spring semester. That's
(34:49):
terrific. Thanks for sharing that, Jeff. Youknow, it's not every day that I get to pick
the brain of an international education professionaland academic leader whose journey has spanned
over 25 years at one institution. What evolutionshave you seen in students on your campus when
it comes to study abroad during that time? Oneof the changes or ways in which study abroad
(35:11):
has evolved here that I think is very valuableis that we're seeing more academic study trips.
So which I think sets an important another highimpact experience or an important experience
that amends faculty-student interaction andgetting a student, getting 10 to 15 students
together with two faculty for two weeks andsending them off into the world somewhere.
(35:35):
So I do think we're seeing again in a kind ofpost-COVID way more faculty
Perhaps, because in part, I don't think St.Mike's is alone and students thinking they
need to double major and double minor and perhapsthey're putting so much into their courseworks
(35:57):
that they're actually finding a hard time findingspace for study abroad in the semester or the
summer. So I think they're finding more opportunitiesactually has been in the short term trip. And
I think part of it is students are reawakeningright now. through the opportunities associated
with study abroad after COVID. We are nothingunusual about it, but it all but shut down
(36:22):
during the pandemic. So I think a new generationof students are beginning to become curious
about what study abroad might involve. And Ihope that having the center as a voice and
as a presence here on a weekly basis promotingglobal engagement, I think it's going to be
pushing more students into study abroad. Whatis it change you'd like to see in the world?
(36:45):
There's so many that I, it's hard to, you know,even fully get started. I, I stood in class
this week. So I just started teaching internationalrelations, in part, international relations.
We just finished the first week and I'm 58 yearsold. And I said to the group of 30 students
in the classroom, roughly 20 years old. AndI said, you know, when I was in taking this
(37:09):
class in the early They were in the Cold War.And so I grew up south of D.C. I grew up very
much in the D.C. orbit, thinking all the timeabout Cold War, the conflict, bipolarity, nuclear
conflict. And then I shared with the studentshow much it changed or seemed to have changed
(37:32):
at the end of the Cold War, with the collapseof the Berlin Wall and the reunification of
Germany and the collapse of the Soviet Unionand how much optimism was associated with some
of the trends of the 1990s. around globalizationand interconnectedness. And so the change I'd
like to see is somehow stopping this growingtrajectory towards more conflict in the world.
(37:55):
I mean, I think we're entering a new uncertain,unstable era that concerns me a great deal.
I think we need to see a wholesale reinvestmentin a kind of new multilateralism and new types
of global governance. So I was a little toopolitical, so Nancy, but that's my biggest
change in the world, like to see is reinvestingin cooperation and diplomacy and peace initiatives.
(38:21):
Well, it's like, how do we get there, right?I like to think, Jeff, and maybe this is Pollyanna-ish
of me, but if every student in the US studiedabroad before they graduated college, what
are different worlds we'd be living in termsof cooperation and multilateralism and intercultural
understanding? And we'd love to speak, we'dlove you could speak to that a little bit.
(38:41):
I fully agree. What are the biggest advantagesor one of the great learning outcomes for studying
abroad broadly construed internship study abroadis Is a I hope a sense of humility a sense
of uh shared humanity uh that a curiosity andappreciation for The other but also a recognition
(39:05):
of how privileged americans Many americans stillare not everyone deeply unequal society, but
when one travels to Vietnam or South Korea orother parts of the world in Africa, you recognize
that there's a phenomenal amount of inequalityand there's incredible challenges facing people.
So I do think having a sense of humility, havinga sense of gratitude is not just a good thing
(39:32):
for one's mental health, but I think it's actuallycould go far towards, as you said, Removing
barriers between people which I would seem tobe getting more and more barriers being placed
between People's around the world these days.So I would on the big I would stop Pollyanna.
Sure No, I think I think if ever and if everyeven had some type of global engagement opportunity,
(39:52):
I think it could be extremely beneficial Asthey begin to wrap up here. I just have one
more question for you, sir As you contemplateeducation abroad in 2024, what makes you hopeful?
I know I am hopeful for the enthusiasm thatis on display from the students who have participated
(40:14):
in the programs that we offer. Not just theenthusiasm, but the... when we sat down and
we had the returning panel back in October,the students, every single student who went
to Vietnam or Korea said it changed their lives.it would, and they said, they spoke out to
(40:36):
the audience, how they would, they said, doit, do whatever you're thinking, whatever doubts
you might have, do this. And so I, for me, that'swhat gives me hope is a sense of adventure,
the sense of enthusiasm that students who haveparticipated and experienced that, uh, of getting
deeply immersed in a foreign culture and, andthey're sharing it with a new generation of
(41:00):
students. My hope is that that's going to expand.the number of people engaged in it. So that
gives me a lot of hope. I am also interestedin and happy about new technologies, new ways
in which where I participate in different typesof COIL, collaborative online international
learning. Actually one of the most fun experiencesI've had in a lot of several years is I teach
(41:23):
a COIL course in the summer with colleaguesat Masaryk University in the Czech Republic
and forget all of screenings and kids, students,young people. from all over the world on this
screen who are taking this class, it's a double,triple international immersion experience and
it's really kind of exciting. So I think I don'twanna overdo that, but I do think you have
(41:46):
like many, little many international experiencesthat are quite valuable through these new technological
connections as well. I can't imagine a betterplace to end things than right here. Dr. Jeffrey
Ayers, this has been such a terrific conversation.Thank you so much for being here. I had a great
time. Thanks a lot, Zach, for inviting me. Andto our listeners, thank you for joining us
(42:07):
for this episode of Changing Lives Through EducationAbroad. I am your host, Zach McInnis, and please
make sure to join us next week as we continueto explore topics around international education
and exchange. Thank you to my spectacular WorldStrides colleagues, Lindsay Kelscher and Sarah
Kachuba, without whom this podcast would notbe possible. Please subscribe to Changing Lives
(42:28):
Through Education Abroad on Apple. Spotify,or wherever you get your podcasts, and share
with your friends and colleagues. Let's createlife-changing moments together.
This is a program that's very clearly placingstudents in workplace internships to build
up a skill set that they will stay with themfollowing graduation. The students that go
on the internship come back and have playeda big role in recruiting students for the following
year. Hello everyone. Welcome to this episodeof World Strides Podcast, changing lives through
(00:26):
education abroad. a weekly series of conversationswith international education's most interesting
thought leaders, as well as discussions on emergingtrends, best practices and innovation happening
in our field. Over the past several years, oneof the fastest growing sectors of WorldStyle's
higher ed and education abroad in general hasbeen international internship programs. Our
(00:50):
listeners will of course know that educationabroad is a high impact practice, and for so
is completing an internship. It's for that reasonthat I like to think of international internships
as something of a double high impact practice.And to me, that's what makes them so special.
Today, we're taking a deep dive into internationalinternships. What they are, why they matter,
(01:14):
and what the outcomes are for students. I amparticularly impressed with the international
internship programming available to studentsat St. Michael's College. in beautiful Greater
Burlington, Vermont. And it's my distinct honorto welcome Dr. Jeffrey Ayers onto the podcast
to explore this topic with us. Dr. Ayers isthe Director of the Center for Global Engagement
(01:37):
and Senior International Officer at St. Michael'sCollege. He's also a professor and Chair of
Political Science International Relations. Jefflikes to keep busy. And I know that he understands
deeply the transformative power. of internationalinternship opportunities for students. I always
learn so much when talking to Jeff and I'm thrilledto be able to share him with our listeners
(02:00):
today. Stay tuned because you will not wantto miss this episode. Jeff Ayers, welcome to
the podcast. Zach, thank you very much for havingme. I know you as a colleague who is truly
dedicated to excellence in higher education,teaching, international exchange, and to your
students at St. Michael's College. I'm excitedto sit down with you today. For our listers
(02:23):
who aren't yet connected to you, please kickus off with an overview of your longstanding
tenure at St. Michael's College and a littlebit about how you came to be where you are
today. Great, again, thanks for the welcome.I'm happy to be here. In the middle of my 26th
year here at St. Michael's College, and as yousaid, I'm a political science and international
(02:43):
relations professor, and I've been teachinginternational relations for most of those years.
and been in a variety of circuits capacities.13 years as department chair, served as king
of the college, and most recently as a seniorinternational officer and director of our Center
for Global Engagement. But through all thattime, my primary kind of background interest
(03:10):
has been in internationalization and promotingand expanding inte So I've always kind of kept
my hat in. to support activities. I've complementedcourses with short-term study trips. I co-lead
a study trip to Ottawa, Canada with a colleagueat the University of Vermont, a three-day trip
in the fall, usually with my Canadian politicscourse. I've co-led a study trip to Wales for
(03:36):
two weeks in the UK, built around environmentalsustainability. But it's really been in the
last several years, a little bit before andthen post-COVID, that I've poured my energies
into. kind of expanding international religionhere, particularly around international relationships.
That's great. Thanks so much for sharing thatwith us, Jeff. You know, it's always been clear
(03:58):
to me that you are truly a pillar of the internationalcommunity, not only at St. Michael's, but within
Vermont. Could you tell us a bit more aboutthe center you lead and help us get to know
the education abroad ecosystem at St. Michael'sCollege? The kind of core or foundation of
our the international ecosystem is study abroad,which is led by our director Peggy Nehmey.
(04:21):
And we've sort of actually, you know, severalof the programs pre-existed creating the Center
for Global Engagement. But the idea behind creatingthis center, which in no way, in no way was
reinventing the wheel, is certainly somethingmany institutions have. But we wanted to create
a hub, a vehicle for better coordinating andcommunicating and strategizing and pooling
(04:45):
resources to again, kind of advance more comprehensiveapproach to inte So we more purposefully and
intentionally in the last several years havecombined study abroad, I say combined, but
kind of under an umbrella structure so thatwe're cooperating more directly. Study abroad,
international internships, undergraduate andpostgraduate fellowships such as the Fulbright
(05:08):
program, the Peace Corps prep program, internationaladmissions and then the office of international
student and scholar services. And that's kindof our institutional Eco-structure in the different
directors and coordinators of the programs allcollaborate with meaning to build up programs
expand global engagement opportunities for ourstudents. And I understand of course that you
(05:33):
are instrumental in and playing a leadershiprole to secure funding. through the Freeman
Foundation for St. Michael's College studentsto participate in academic internships abroad
in Asia. Tell us a bit about this story andhow you turned this vision into a reality.
It's a great story. I was in my last year atthe College and my passion at the time was
(06:02):
to continue to expand internationalization opportunities.And that last year we brought the Peace Corps
Prep Program to Cambridge, but we also appliedfor an initial pilot grant for the Freeman
Foundation. And we were fortunate to have theopportunity to work with the Freeman get a
small modest grant appropriately so for a pilotprogram and we were able to fund four students
(06:26):
to go to Hong Kong for eight weeks in internationalinternships in the summer of 2018. And I went
over, actually had been in Australia beforethat and then went up from Brisbane, Australia
to visit some of the sites in Hong Kong andstudents had a great experience, very successful.
So we expanded it to 11 students the followingsummer in 2018. The Freeman, I think, gratefully
(06:52):
saw that we were successful at the internshipprocess, so they were annually reapplying for
the grant, so we got a larger grant. And thenCOVID hit and we pivoted to online. This wasn't
Freeman, I should actually add. It's prettyimportant to say we didn't use any Freeman
funding for the virtual internships, but wedid work with the Teen Education and Broad
(07:14):
Network for having students placed in virtualinternships. in Vietnam and then it's been
in the last it really kind of taken off aroundthe last several years in 2022 14 students
went you know it's a Seoul South Korea for eightweeks this past summer we had 15 students in
Ho Chi Minh City 11 in Ho Chi Minh City andfour in also a total of 15 and we're thrilled
(07:40):
to have 16 total who are working with rightnow to get crazy so it's been a kind of a measured
Process and grad I'm glad that we haven't overdonedone things taking it Her goal is to expand
it a little bit by bit. I consider the FreemanFoundation program International internship
program one of the flagship programs of st.Michael's College who are one of only 30 Colleges
(08:04):
and universities in the country. They receivedthis grant to support international internships
well it's been such a just such a been a joyjust play out to have been able to play a small
part and the growth of this program on yourcampus and and to see the students who have
participated go and then come back and trulybe transformed. You know, many of our listeners
today will at least be somewhat familiar withFreeman Asia. I understand that you have cultivated
(08:27):
a strong professional relationship with Freeman,and I'd love for you to share a bit about what
that looks like, what you've learned along theway, and any pieces of advice for other professionals
related to seeking meaningful partnerships.Well, I do have a good... I have a strong professional
relationship with Dr. Jufay Wong, who's theNational Program Director of the Freeman Foundation.
(08:48):
Jufay is an invaluable resource. He's been hugelysupportive of St. Michael's College. He's been
a real mentor to me in terms of each annuallyrevising the grant and how to appropriately
tailor it to the interest and the concerns ofthe Freeman Foundation.
(09:11):
it kind of exists institutionally in both Vermontand Hawaii. We do, we have, I have, I can say,
I'm, it's a, we're very fortunate that Jufeiis actually in the neighborhood, so to speak.
So we've invited him to fall, returning dinners,opportunities to see students present on panels,
(09:33):
uh, you know, reflecting on their experienceswhen they were abroad. And in fact, I, I just
invited. Ju-Fei was one of our featured speakersreflecting on his experience in international
education. He spoke for, he was one of the speakersfor International Education Week, that's November.
(09:53):
The personal relationship, the professional,but the personal relationship getting to know
him, inviting him to campus, he's been verysupportive of the, of St. Michael's College
and I think it's been clear that the work we'redoing very much supports the mission of the
Freeman Foundation. This is not a study abroadprogram. This is a program that's very clearly
(10:13):
placing students in workplace internships tobuild up the skill set that they will stay
with them following graduation. We've been animportant to the Freeman Foundation that the
students that go on the internship come backand have played a big role in recruiting students
for the following year. So I think that's beenvery successful. Something else the Freeman
(10:36):
Foundation has been very supportive of. So it'sbeen. Certainly part of this is a very strong
professional and personal relationship withthe program director, Juk-Fei Wong, who I think
has been an invaluable resource for us. Yeah,as international educators, Jeff, we know that
funding is a cornerstone in our students' abilityto have access to high impact practice, such
(10:58):
as internships or study abroad programs. Whatdoes the Freeman grant cover and how have you
seen it open doors for your students? I mean,we supplement the grant with some funding from
the Center for Global Engagement and anotherendowment here, but the majority of the annual
Freeman grant covers the cost of placement ofthe internship placement, which include housing,
(11:27):
usually covered round-trip airfare. It alsocovers, if I mix in some of the funding from
the Center for Global Engagement, we help coverfood sites and then we waive the cost. the
cost of a four credit class during the summer.So we waived the cost of that tuition for students.
It's a course that I teach in the summer. Ourgoal is to have every conceivable cost covered
(11:52):
so that students are not paying much out ofpocket. It's certainly, I think when you have
the question of what doors might be open forstudents, my hope is that what's happening
is that compared to traditional study abroad,which is also a fantastic opportunity here
at the college during the semester in the summer.I do think we're addressing the well-known
(12:15):
equity gap that exists in education for underservedstudents who might not otherwise be able to
afford study abroad. We're really trying tomake this a low or no opportunity to go abroad
for eight weeks in the summer. So I think thathas been something that's been notable. I think
we have seen some firsts. expansion of firstgen and participation by more students from
(12:39):
under-worked communities. Why are internationalinternships important? And how are the outcomes
different from more traditional study abroad?International internships, first of all, they're
important because I like how you started thispodcast. I'd never heard that before, but a
double high impact. Arguably that's true.
(13:04):
high use high impact co-educational opportunitiesfor students today to give them a skill set
to help them prepare for a career after college.You combine that with an international placement
and you as you if you look at any new high impactpractices we see global learning, intercultural
competency is another one. So we're combiningtwo high impact experiences of international
(13:29):
internships.
Oftentimes students with a deeper kind of learningthat persists with them a Lot of a lot more
a lot of evidence suggests retention and graduationrates are higher for students are participated
in high-impact experiences but the I've noticedthe internships are again equally immersive
(13:52):
eight students are Particularly in Asia aregoing to the other side of the world They're
being plumped down in a workplace for up toten hours a day eight to ten hours a day And
then you throw in a commute where they may haveone or two other students from the United States
or another English speaking country, but forthe most part, they're suddenly working with
(14:14):
a team of people from Hong Kong or from SouthKorea or from Vietnam. Most of these are English
language, though English is the working languageof the site, but I still think it's a different
type of immersion when you are in there andthe team that you're working with is primarily
from that country. And these are the ones thatI'm most familiar with. There are three cities
(14:36):
in particular that I'd spent, visited and spentthe most time and had students placed in Hong
Kong and now Seoul and Ho Chi Minh city aremassive, deeply immersive urban areas as well.
So the students, some of them are living togetherin these, in these cities, but they're still,
uh, they're not walking across the street totake a class and then go back to their dorm.
(14:59):
They're hopping on a Metro in goal or they'regetting in grabbed at the uber of you know,
Vietnam and they're navigating in a city ina completely foreign language, so I do think
it's a producing We don't we're told not touse these words anymore. But I think that Students
are getting a lot of off skills from internationalinternships resilience persistence independence
(15:23):
adaptability Time management independence andthey're getting the workplace skills So I think
there's a soft skills, global interculturalcompetency and workplace skill or there's a
variety of things that are complimenting themselvesthat are producing these high impact learning
outcomes. I love the way articulated that I'venever quite thought about it in that particular
(15:46):
way, but it's brilliantly put. You know, I knowthat you make a point to get to know your students
well. What are some of the coolest or most interestingthings you've seen your students do? on one
of these internship programs. I thought aboutthese trips a lot and, you know, part of the
(16:07):
cool aspect is the placement itself. So forinstance, last summer, students were placed
in the Silicon Valley of Seoul, of South Korea,or students are placed near... the War Remnants
Museum in Ho Chi Minh City. I mean, the placementsthemselves, the historical significance of
(16:28):
some of the sites, or the local areas in whichthe students are placed, for me is particularly
interesting and cool. I think the, you know,we tend to say to every student, regardless
of the major, regardless of whether you endup getting placed in, at a site that aligns
(16:48):
perfectly with your major or career goals. you'regoing to have a life-changing experience. So
it's that placement in a dramatically differentinternational cultural setting that's cool.
I use it, and that's a term that you use. Ido think it's cool the way students are developing.
I've seen it with my own eyes the way studentsdevelop a sense of humility towards the other,
(17:14):
towards somebody that they're learning muchmore about. Particularly notice that Vietnam,
which is ongoing. continual reconciliation betweenthe United States and Vietnam. Students say
for sure where the coolest or one of the mostenjoyable aspects of these internships are
the connections they make with people on theground there, people in the home countries,
(17:35):
both buddies or people in the workplace or peoplein the neighborhood. They meet through coffee
cups and such. I think there's also cool trips,cultural excursion in Budapest, Thailand. There's
a number of side trips, weekend cultural events,but I think the overall daily, I think a day-to-day
(17:56):
experience, the immersion in culture is so differentfrom what they're accustomed to and the friendships
that they've made that I think are lasting inwhat's particularly for me interesting. We've
talked a lot about the outcomes for studentswho participate on these programs, but there
are also other benefits to having opportunitieslike these, right? You know, if you send 16
(18:18):
students from St. Michael's College to internin Asia for a summer, then they then return
to the home campus. I'm curious, like from yourperspective as a senior international officer,
like what the effect has been on the campusas a whole? Couple different thoughts come
to mind. One is that we do purposefully createpanels for the returning to share with the
(18:42):
campus community their variances and their.very enjoyable. They're open to the public
and they're usually very well attended. I thinkthey serve at both information sessions about
these sites, about these countries, but theyalso serve as recruitment mechanisms. Students
get in, they find out who participated in thesepreps and they begin to talk and get a sense
(19:07):
maybe I could do this well. What else reallyinterests me
qualitative so far. I don't, but I'm beginningto see that the particularly post-COVID as
any other institution kind of reinventing, rebuildinginternationalization after the pandemic. I'm
(19:28):
starting to see the internship program, forexample, as part of a broader process of helping
students scaffold up different internationalexperiences. So it's a little bit anecdotal,
example is Udy who does an eight-week internshipin Vietnam or South Korea for example through
(19:50):
the Freeman is going to become interested inand potentially more competitive for the Fulbright
program for example and we're starting to seestudents participated in those Freeman internships
become interested in following up with a post-graduationFulbright or at the Peace be being part of
the Peace Corps. I'm also seeing more studentsbecoming more interested in international careers
(20:15):
like not just the Ford service. But I do thinkthat there's something again, this as an internship
program is growing that it's creating or it'sconnecting through and beginning to kind of
scaffold up with other opportunities that arehopefully building a kind of global mindset
here at the college. Over the past decade orso, we have all seen an explosion of interest
(20:37):
in students for study abroad and internationalinternships throughout Asia. What, from your
perspective, makes this region so attractiveto our students? You know, one thing I'll say
that I would rate that we send students in partbecause it's part of the mission of the Freeman.
So I mean, but I like that what I think that'sdoing is opening students' eyes up to a part
(21:04):
of the world that they otherwise may not haveconsidered. So we have seen some students who
after participating in a Freeman. internshipin the summer have decided to continue and
study abroad in the same country. So I thinkthere's part of its connections of the Freeman
program. But I also think it's like when youwhen we during the application process when
(21:25):
we're interviewing students and we ask themwhat is it that interests you about this area
a number of them say well, it's the area ofpopulation growth in the 21st century the economy
booming a number of people mentioned pop culturek-pop or other types of kind of emerging technologies.
So I do think students have in part latchedon through that. It's converted that region
(21:48):
of the world that generally continues to grow,uh, you know, both economically and in a technological
sense. And maybe students are becoming a littlebit more adventurous as well. Absolutely. As
a practitioner in the field of internationaleducation and an academic leader at St. Michael's
college. You have spent time abroad with studentsand engaged in professional travel on multiple
(22:10):
occasions. In fact, you have visited the TeenOffice in Seoul a few times and I've told you
are one of their very favorite site visitors,Jeff. So I wanted to ask your advice. When
you're planning your professional travel, howdo you do it and how do you make the best use
of your time when overseas? And I was fortunatethis past summer and I was hoping to do it
(22:32):
again this summer to visit Mount Jett slowlyagain. back to Ho Chi Minh City and visit both
teen sites. And you know the way I make bestuse of the trip is to try to pack in a number
of different activities. You know one is tomake sure that I you oftentimes can't visit
everyone but I think it's important to visitsome of the internship sites. So I want to
(22:56):
see what where students are where they can pleasesit down talk to some of the actual site supervisors
in the same way I would do here. with studentsbeing placed with the Vermont Council of World
Affairs, for example, I just on the phone yesterdaywith the site supervisor for a student who's
being placed, you know, with that organization.So I think it's important to organize ahead
(23:19):
of time working with your representatives onthe ground and those sites, site visits, I
think it's important to visit the housing ifpossible to see where the students are living.
It's not just it always is possible. We alwaysdo it. I enjoy visiting the opposites. where
the staff is on the ground there in Seoul, aswell as Ho Chi Minh City. And also I think
(23:40):
it's important, I get out and I ride on thesubway or I use the Grab app. I try to navigate
my way around the city on my own to get a senseof what it's like for the students. How difficult
is it? How challenging is it? Sample some ofthe restaurants, if you will. Explore some
of the culture, seriously explore some of thecultural excursions. What are some of the opportunities
(24:02):
available? So I pack a lot into my time whenI'm there and actually don't do enough tourism.
It's hard to pack it all in, isn't it? Thanksso much, Jeff. Yeah, you are of course sending
students to intern in both Seoul and Ho ChiMinh City. I'd love to hear you unpack some
of the differences between those two destinationsin terms of student fit, what your students
(24:25):
are saying about their overall takeaways andanything else you'd like to share. The first
thing I would share is that both groups of studentsthis past year in particular, it's the first
time we've sent students to two different sites,had nothing but praise for people on the ground
(24:45):
there and that's critical. That's maybe themost important aspect of these programs is
knowing that there are people there to guidethem, to mentor them, advise them throughout
integrate with the community and such. So that'sbeen both sites, WeSo and Mo, Moomin and others
(25:07):
who are there on the ground have been just reallyoutstanding and accessible and great resources
and they've been incredibly welcoming to mewhen I visited as well and very useful and
helpful. There's clearly differences betweenthe two sites. Sol is a, I just, I think it's
a, it's a much more, almost post-industrialcity with an incredibly modern metro system
(25:35):
that goes all over the greater whole region.So that's the primary, they just have to master
that underground metro system to almost everybodytake that metro to get to wherever they're
going in an internship site. And I think thetype, you know, there are some differences
and I don't even want to speak to them as much.They vary a bit. I mean, the internships are
(25:56):
a little bit different. The availability isa bit different. Maybe more marketing, business
accounting type internships might be a littlemore prevalent. Social media in Seoul, South
Korea, but again, it, it always depends on thework here, students are getting advised with
team reps and we were old in it. We seem tofind it was the case that there may be, and
(26:19):
there were some opportunities for more researchbased, uh, STEM type internships at Ho Chi
Minh City. So I noticed that. Oh, we had studentsthat were placed in educational research settings
in Vietnam. That was pretty exciting for them.We actually have a student who supplied for
a Fulbright to go back to Vietnam after graduation.I think one of the major reasons he could even
(26:42):
be considered to be comparative is his experiencethat he had in Vietnam. Again, no metro system,
so to speak, of in Ochi Minh City. It was kindof a different adventure. In seconds of getting
off the plate, I learned how do you grab. whichis like the Uber in the United States, and
in students that their primary meaning or elsethe bus system. So different, slightly different
(27:07):
climates, different excursions. I think it just,it varies between student, but both experiences
are incredibly immersive and rewarding. Jeff,we've talked a lot about Asia this afternoon,
but I know you're of course a political scienceat international studies faculty and an expert
on US-Canada relations. You've written and presentedabout many topics with us in Canada over the
(27:30):
years, including, I believe recently on VermontPublic Radio, and have, of course, led students
to Ottawa. How did you become interested inCanada and what's special about it in terms
of academic and intercultural study? I wrotemy dissertation at the, I went to the University
of Wisconsin, Madison for earned my master'sand PhD there and happened to be at the time
(27:53):
in the late eighties when I was in earning apolitical science. graduate degree that there
was an unusual social movement that had originatedin Canada. It was against the Free Trade Agreement.
It was an anti-free trade movement in Canadathat kind of fascinated me at the time and
I ended up studying it applying a lot of socialmovement theory to it and wrote my dissertation
(28:15):
on it. It became my first book, Defying Condemnto Wisdom, Political Movements and Political
Movements and Popular Mobilization in Free Tradein Canada. It was fascinating. me the way in
which a group of people that in a country ofa country would be North American, very appellate
(28:37):
to the majority, but a significant number ofposts and something that seems so innocuous.
So I was interested in it from that kind ofintellectual way. And then just as soon as
I, my first job was in Lake Superior State Universityat St. Mary, Michigan, right on the Canadian
border. In fact, my youngest daughter was bornin Sioux, Ontario. And so for those first four
(29:00):
years, I had sometimes half my students wereCanadian thinking across the border to go to
class. And I was able to take that class. Iteach Canadian politics here. Usually every
fall semester, I have built a grade relationshipwith a professor at University of Vermont,
Dave Nassar, and we collaborate on the studytrip. And I often say to my students, most
(29:20):
of whom are US citizens in class, that Canadais a great way to get four of the major subfields
of political science. In a Canadian politicsclass, you're getting comparative politics
because you're studying parliamentary systems.We're getting international relations because
you're studying the way another country is navigatingthe world. You're getting some political theory,
(29:43):
but you're looking at collective rights andmulticulturalism. And you're also going to
American politics because when you study Canada,it's a really interesting way to learn more
about the United States and how... country justnorth of the United States purposefully was
created to be different from the US. So it'sbeen a it's a great it's a fascinating country
(30:04):
to study of course it has Quebec within it.It's a has a growing a more prominent role
for and focused on indigenous people, the aboriginalpeople. So it's a it's a very I think important
and interesting study country to study in the21st century. Thanks for sharing that, Jeff.
I don't think I've ever asked you that questionabout Canada. You'll have to pick your brain
(30:27):
more about Canadian politics. But I want tobring back the conversation to St. Michael's
for a moment. You know, St. Michael's is ofcourse a Catholic institution and part of the
college's vision statement is the following.To actively engage students with ideas developed
over millennia and many world civilizations,as well as those ideas from more recently emerging
(30:51):
disciplines. and assist students in a generativeprocess of creating new understandings. Now,
Jeff, you and I know that study abroad and achance to develop a wider worldview go hand
in hand. What distinguishes the students atSt. Michael's College and how have you seen
their learning be enhanced by global opportunities?You're right, St. Michael is a Catholic institution.
(31:13):
It's a small, private Catholic liberal artscollege where the hallmark of the experience
here is faculty student interaction and residentiallife and small class size. And that plays those
activities or opportunities play a role in shapingthe type of education that's here. I think
(31:36):
students aren't a number. I think there is astrong sense of community here, both within
the student population and between studentsand faculty and staff. I think that's not that
different from other smaller liberal arts colleges.There's an Edmundite tradition here. There's
a strong commitment to service. Large percentagesof our students participate in MOO, which is
(32:00):
a service program mobilization of volunteereffort. So I do think there's an underlying
kind of ethical sense or commitment to serviceon the part of our students. And then I think
the global piece has become ever more importantin providing students with that edge. in the
21st century. So the college for decades hasdone a great job of providing a classic liberal
(32:23):
arts education. And by the way, and it kindof a Catholic education, education for the
whole person with some philosophy and religiousstudies and again service built in. So I think
students have, there's an excellent opportunityhere for building up a liberal arts skill set
of critical reading and writing or reading communication,analytical skills. But the global piece is
(32:46):
so important today. So I think students whotake advantage of some type of global experience
or global opportunity are giving themselvesthe chance to build up an intercultural competency
or building up a sense of global citizenshipthat's going to help them be more successful
in an increasingly diverse and interconnectedworld. And I want to return to the Center for
(33:12):
Global Engagement that you lead. Is there anythingJeff that you're working on as it relates to
the center that you're particularly excitedabout? Yes, we are actually, I'm excited about
thinking kind of the next step for the firsttwo and a half years. We've, we've built this
center. The pillars of the center are the differentprograms of study abroad, international internships,
(33:34):
Peace Corps, PrEP, Fulbright and other typesof fellowships, Office of International Student
and Scholar Services. So now what we're tryingto do is think about ways to both more directly
impact classroom. So how can, how can what we'redoing. encourage more faculty to create more
courses with international content. And I'mvery interested in what we're calling a global
(34:00):
scholars program. So we haven't publicized ityet, but what our goal is, is to create a program.
It's sort of a pathway four year mentoring programwhere we tell students, did you come to St.
Michael's College from day one, you're goingto, you'll be mentored and advised on the many
different ways across our four years that wecan take advantage of study abroad or an international
(34:25):
internship or maybe mentoring internationalstudents so that, again, by the time you graduate,
you are much more globally competent than youotherwise would be. And you're more competitive
for Fulbright, Ford Servants, graduate school,or other types of careers. So I'm very excited
about the Global Scholars Program that we hopeto. start frankly this spring semester. That's
(34:49):
terrific. Thanks for sharing that, Jeff. Youknow, it's not every day that I get to pick
the brain of an international education professionaland academic leader whose journey has spanned
over 25 years at one institution. What evolutionshave you seen in students on your campus when
it comes to study abroad during that time? Oneof the changes or ways in which study abroad
(35:11):
has evolved here that I think is very valuableis that we're seeing more academic study trips.
So which I think sets an important another highimpact experience or an important experience
that amends faculty-student interaction andgetting a student, getting 10 to 15 students
together with two faculty for two weeks andsending them off into the world somewhere.
(35:35):
So I do think we're seeing again in a kind ofpost-COVID way more faculty
Perhaps, because in part, I don't think St.Mike's is alone and students thinking they
need to double major and double minor and perhapsthey're putting so much into their courseworks
(35:57):
that they're actually finding a hard time findingspace for study abroad in the semester or the
summer. So I think they're finding more opportunitiesactually has been in the short term trip. And
I think part of it is students are reawakeningright now. through the opportunities associated
with study abroad after COVID. We are nothingunusual about it, but it all but shut down
(36:22):
during the pandemic. So I think a new generationof students are beginning to become curious
about what study abroad might involve. And Ihope that having the center as a voice and
as a presence here on a weekly basis promotingglobal engagement, I think it's going to be
pushing more students into study abroad. Whatis it change you'd like to see in the world?
(36:45):
There's so many that I, it's hard to, you know,even fully get started. I, I stood in class
this week. So I just started teaching internationalrelations, in part, international relations.
We just finished the first week and I'm 58 yearsold. And I said to the group of 30 students
in the classroom, roughly 20 years old. AndI said, you know, when I was in taking this
(37:09):
class in the early They were in the Cold War.And so I grew up south of D.C. I grew up very
much in the D.C. orbit, thinking all the timeabout Cold War, the conflict, bipolarity, nuclear
conflict. And then I shared with the studentshow much it changed or seemed to have changed
(37:32):
at the end of the Cold War, with the collapseof the Berlin Wall and the reunification of
Germany and the collapse of the Soviet Unionand how much optimism was associated with some
of the trends of the 1990s. around globalizationand interconnectedness. And so the change I'd
like to see is somehow stopping this growingtrajectory towards more conflict in the world.
(37:55):
I mean, I think we're entering a new uncertain,unstable era that concerns me a great deal.
I think we need to see a wholesale reinvestmentin a kind of new multilateralism and new types
of global governance. So I was a little toopolitical, so Nancy, but that's my biggest
change in the world, like to see is reinvestingin cooperation and diplomacy and peace initiatives.
(38:21):
Well, it's like, how do we get there, right?I like to think, Jeff, and maybe this is Pollyanna-ish
of me, but if every student in the US studiedabroad before they graduated college, what
are different worlds we'd be living in termsof cooperation and multilateralism and intercultural
understanding? And we'd love to speak, we'dlove you could speak to that a little bit.
(38:41):
I fully agree. What are the biggest advantagesor one of the great learning outcomes for studying
abroad broadly construed internship study abroadis Is a I hope a sense of humility a sense
of uh shared humanity uh that a curiosity andappreciation for The other but also a recognition
(39:05):
of how privileged americans Many americans stillare not everyone deeply unequal society, but
when one travels to Vietnam or South Korea orother parts of the world in Africa, you recognize
that there's a phenomenal amount of inequalityand there's incredible challenges facing people.
So I do think having a sense of humility, havinga sense of gratitude is not just a good thing
(39:32):
for one's mental health, but I think it's actuallycould go far towards, as you said, Removing
barriers between people which I would seem tobe getting more and more barriers being placed
between People's around the world these days.So I would on the big I would stop Pollyanna.
Sure No, I think I think if ever and if everyeven had some type of global engagement opportunity,
(39:52):
I think it could be extremely beneficial Asthey begin to wrap up here. I just have one
more question for you, sir As you contemplateeducation abroad in 2024, what makes you hopeful?
I know I am hopeful for the enthusiasm thatis on display from the students who have participated
(40:14):
in the programs that we offer. Not just theenthusiasm, but the... when we sat down and
we had the returning panel back in October,the students, every single student who went
to Vietnam or Korea said it changed their lives.it would, and they said, they spoke out to
(40:36):
the audience, how they would, they said, doit, do whatever you're thinking, whatever doubts
you might have, do this. And so I, for me, that'swhat gives me hope is a sense of adventure,
the sense of enthusiasm that students who haveparticipated and experienced that, uh, of getting
deeply immersed in a foreign culture and, andthey're sharing it with a new generation of
(41:00):
students. My hope is that that's going to expand.the number of people engaged in it. So that
gives me a lot of hope. I am also interestedin and happy about new technologies, new ways
in which where I participate in different typesof COIL, collaborative online international
learning. Actually one of the most fun experiencesI've had in a lot of several years is I teach
(41:23):
a COIL course in the summer with colleaguesat Masaryk University in the Czech Republic
and forget all of screenings and kids, students,young people. from all over the world on this
screen who are taking this class, it's a double,triple international immersion experience and
it's really kind of exciting. So I think I don'twanna overdo that, but I do think you have
(41:46):
like many, little many international experiencesthat are quite valuable through these new technological
connections as well. I can't imagine a betterplace to end things than right here. Dr. Jeffrey
Ayers, this has been such a terrific conversation.Thank you so much for being here. I had a great
time. Thanks a lot, Zach, for inviting me. Andto our listeners, thank you for joining us
(42:07):
for this episode of Changing Lives Through EducationAbroad. I am your host, Zach McInnis, and please
make sure to join us next week as we continueto explore topics around international education
and exchange. Thank you to my spectacular WorldStrides colleagues, Lindsay Kelscher and Sarah
Kachuba, without whom this podcast would notbe possible. Please subscribe to Changing Lives
(42:28):
Through Education Abroad on Apple. Spotify,or wherever you get your podcasts, and share
with your friends and colleagues. Let's createlife-changing moments together.
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