December 19, 2023 • 41 mins
Male-identifying students represent just about one-third of study abroad students. In this episode, Brian Henry, an experienced J.E.D.I. facilitator and Program Manager in the Office of International Education at the University Denver, joins host Zac Macinnes to explore why it’s been so challenging to move the needle. Brian shares valuable insights about the importance of bridging the gender gap, advice on reaching today’s male students, and strategies all practitioners can utilize to advance inclusivity in our programs and practices.
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Male identifying students are just like anyother student that comes into our space. They
need to feel belonging as just as much as otherstudents do. Even if they're not a minority
identifying student, they still have to havethat. We do a disservice to those students
if we allow them to walk into our space andassume that they feel like they fit in just
(00:25):
because they are. male or they are white orthey are cisgendered in those capacities. Hello
everyone. Welcome to this episode of World Stridesinaugural podcast, Changing Lives for Education
Abroad, a weekly series of conversations withinternational education's most interesting
thought leaders, as well as discussions on emergingtrends, best practices and innovation happening
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in our field. I'm your host Zach McInnis. SeniorDirector of Campus Partnerships with World
Strides, and I'm really looking forward to thisweek's episode. Today, we're talking about
the gender gap in education abroad and in highereducation at large. According to the Institute
of International Education, approximately 32.6%of study abroad participants identified as
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male in a 2019 to 2020 academic year. That'sless than one third, a figure which anecdotally
will make sense to many of our listeners today.For some context though, male identifying students
represented 35% of study abroad participantsin the 2000 and 2001 academic year. So, despite
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the massive growth in education abroad overthe past 20 years, the proportion of men enrolling
in our programs has, if anything, declined overthe past two decades. Why is this? Why is it
important? How should practitioners be thinkingabout this issue? I'm excited to welcome my
good friend, Brian Henry, onto the podcast tohelp us unpack this issue. Brian is currently
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a program manager in the Office of InternationalEducation at the University of Denver and one
of our field's brightest rising stars. He'sbeen active at Education Abroad for nearly
a decade and has presented on various aspectsof student development, diversity and inclusion,
and racial justice. Believe me, you wanna findBrian Henry at a conference. He's also just
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a fascinating guy who I love kicking ideas aroundwith. I can't wait to dive into this topic.
Stay tuned because you do not want to miss ourconversation today about the missing men in
study abroad. Brian Henry, welcome to the podcast.Hey Zach, thanks for inviting me. I'm happy
to be here and honored. Absolutely. To begin,I'd like to ask you to introduce yourself and
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give us an overview of your career up to thispoint and share a bit about education abroad
at the University of Denver. Yeah, so my experienceis overlapping with several different institutions,
including public, private, and a couple of flagshipsas well. So I've gotten to see thousands of
students at this point go abroad across multipleinstitutions and have had the ability to use
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my career in a very positive way. And as youknow, I'm quite altruistic in this sense. While
our community and international education includesfolks from all walks of life coming from a
wide variety of entry points, we don't oftenhear about a military background as in some
other fields. And I know you've had some timein the service and I want to say thank you
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for your service. And I'd like to ask you howyour time with the military informs your work
as an education abroad practitioner. It reallydictates a lot of what I do. first of all it's
a huge part of my identity because of a fewreasons. One of the biggest being family. My
father was in Vietnam, my grandparents werein World War II, and so there's that lineage
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piece to it. I of course started college andthen entered after my first year of college,
entered the military for a short time, whichwas just a year and a half after 9-11. So that
was definitely a huge contributing factor. Theother piece to it is my identity as an Asian
American, which unfortunately has not been themost positive experience living in the United
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States growing up here and being adopted asI am, but being raised by American parents
and joining the military in a sense was my wayto prove my American citizenship, which is
really in some ways good and in some ways kindof sad that I felt the need to do that at that
age. But when it comes to the experience, Ido think a couple of key pieces that I brought
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from that into international education is thediversity of the military. I was able to interact
with many people, the military being the mostdiverse workforce in the United States. That's
interesting. Yeah. And it was also integrated,you know, post-Civil War. Well, technically
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during the Civil War, it was integrated. Andever since then. Over time, of course, it's
taken a lot of work and it's taken a lot ofyears, but it has encompassed pretty much almost
every aspect of diversity within our country.The other part to it is the discipline. I tend
to get up early. I get to work early and beingable to stay on track, stay scheduled is really
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something that I learned from that. Also, Iwould say that one of the largest pieces that
I bring to the field are the core values thatI learned while I was in the military. Even
though it was not a career and it was a shortstint, there were two primary pieces that I
pulled in. One was the Air Force Honor Code.I will not lie, cheat, or steal, and nor condone
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those who do. And the other part was the ArmyHonor Code, which is also known as leadership.
It's not quite the exact acronym, but the leadershipstands for loyalty, duty, respect, selfless
service, honor, integrity, and personal courage.or personal sacrifice in some circles. So taking
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those values that I listed and those valuesthat I learned from the military, I adopt them
and adapt them to the field almost every dayin a variety of ways. I love that. Yeah, thanks
for sharing that and tying those two very distinctbut related worlds together. I imagine your
office is much neater than mine in terms ofthe discipline that you bring to your work.
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Sometimes. But let's dive into today's topic,Brian, which is the intersection of participation
rates and gender identity in education abroad.All of us in this field share the dream of
bringing study abroad to as many learners aswe can. I often call it study abroad for all.
We also know that female identifying studentshave been the most represented when we look
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at participation rates as a whole, which isa trend that has persisted and perhaps accelerated
over time. We're talking about this topic todaywith a focus on increasing our reach as educators.
Simply put, if we want to grow in terms of accessand participation, we need to reach more male
identifying students. Brian, please start usoff by painting a brief picture. For folks
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who are a little fresher to the field, whatare the broad strokes of the numbers we are
seeing as it relates to gender identity andeducation abroad? really begins with a first
look at higher ed overall. Since to 2010, highereducation has been declining, as we know. The
interesting fact to that is that higher educationhas actually been, the enrollment was increasing
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from 1985 to 2010, and then when 2010 hit, it'sbeen on an ever-decreasing slope. The interesting
fact to that is... that it actually has beenacross both genders. And for those who may
not know the statistics, female enrollment incollege has actually overtaken men since about
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1975. So it's been on an ever-increasing rate.But the piece to education abroad that then
we pull into this conversation is that since2010, the number of white students going abroad,
ratio-wise has gone down, but that is becausethe ratio of students that identify as other
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races or minorities has gone up. The interestingpiece to that is, is that Latin and Hispanic
students have actually nearly doubled since2010 to 2021. Kind of fascinating to see that.
I also have, if you look at the data, it's fascinatingto see the comparison of how costs have gone
up ever increasingly as the number of enrollmentshave gone down. So there may be a correlation
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there between the cost of higher education,the cost of studying abroad, and then the number
of students that we're actually seeing. If I'mrecalling my statistics correctly, I believe
male students, or students identifying as amale, is represented about 42% of the higher
education population. And Brian, knowing youas I do, I'm sure you have at least one work
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in theory as it relates to why male identifyingstudents are less likely to study abroad. Please
share with us your thoughts on why we're seeingthe patterns that we are. Well, it is a working
theory, but as someone who has gotten to workin the field for the majority of this time
of decline in enrollment, one of the theoriesthat I've seen as many of us have across our
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campuses is that there's actually been a significantincrease in students identifying as LGBTQ.
And so I would go as far as arguing that becauseof the value systems that students are identifying
those students are actually seeing study abroadas an opportunity and pursuing it. And so the
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decline I would say is more on the, as we wouldcall cis-gendered, uh, male, male identifying
students, um, is actually decreasing at thesame time, though the LGBTQ students are increasing.
And so it's a fascinating thing. And that Ithink is why we've seen this one third to two
third ratio since about 2000, at least. andit stayed relatively the same, even though
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the ratio of students demographically has changeddrastically. One intriguing aspect that you've
pointed out to me in a prior conversation thatwe've had is that this topic could be related
to values and the overall landscape of highereducation. What about education abroad in particular
speaks more to folks who identify as women andless to men, would you say? I think a big piece
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to that, and we can discuss a little more indepth later, but a big piece to that is the
way that we frame the field. There is certainlya large amount of discussion around self-discovery,
seeing the world, finding yourself, gainingindependence, and of course travel. And as
we know, these value systems, at least generallyspeaking, these value systems tend to be more
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appealing to female-identifying students. Sothat in itself is probably one of the largest
ways that we could enact change, is trying toreframe the conversation and reframe how we
talk about education abroad to our students.Brian, you mentioned earlier that in your past
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decade of experience in our field, you've hadthe pleasure of working in a variety of different
types of institutions all over the country.What have you noticed from those experience?
in terms of the types of programs and even locationsthat male identifying students tend to find
more appealing. There's actually a twofold tothis that I feel like I should respond to.
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So one of the biggest pieces is, I would arguethat the majority of men do tend to find shorter
term programming most popular. They certainlydo not have a shortage of FOMO when it comes
to missing out on things on campus. One of thelargest Areas that I've seen, of course, being
athletics and then of course, Greek life isfairly close. As far as factors that students
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tend to find that keep them on campus and ofcourse can get in the way of trying to study
abroad. I would say as a majority, a lot ofthe males that I've worked with have been seeking
career-oriented programming. If they're a businessmajor, they are looking for a program that
they can get business credit and even more likely.that they may be interested, many of them are
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interested in internships or at least opportunitieswhere they can see or do some of the work that
they might actually be doing in the future.I do want to also add in though that there
is a minority of male students but there arealways these students that come into our office
and they are looking to further themselves asfar as possible and so you'll see them, they're
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of course usually double or triple majors. They'reinvolved in things all across campus. But these
kinds of male students that come into your officeare probably looking for adventure, but they're
also trying to find ways to better themselves.And so they're the types that are gonna go
on your very experiential programming. That'sinteresting. They might be open to internships
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and classes at the same time, even overloadingon classes while they're there. But you'll
see them and you'll know when you meet thesekinds of students. because they'll be enrolling
in classes that are, you know, advanced fortheir major as opposed to food and wine in
said country. Absolutely. Supporting collegestudents as we do means we are working with
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young people every single day. During theseyoung adult years, students are finding their
path and there can be a fear of failure or makingthe wrong choice, whatever that may be. To
what extent do you think this fear plays inthe decisions that students make around the
decision to study abroad and how is gender afactor? I think the decline in 2010 can really
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be attributed to the housing market crash. Andso a lot of these students have grown up watching
their families struggle, watching these changeshappen within our society and within our culture.
And then of course we can't miss out on thefact that. Over the past several years, the
socio-political landscape of the United Stateshas changed drastically as well. And that can
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be attributed to political leaders, but it canalso be attributed to social movements that
are coming into the limelight. That being said,I think one of the some of the biggest aspects
that students are taken into account is theFOMO or the JOMO. For those who have never
heard the term, the JOMO is actually the joyof missing out. decade, I've actually seen
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a huge uptick of this in our students. The FOMOis either in terms of missing out on something
on campus, but the JOMO actually comes in termsof when we present them with hundreds of program
options, they don't know what to pick becausethey have a fear of picking the wrong place
and the wrong program. Part of this, I think,is our due diligence or responsibility to try
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to find programs that'll work for these students.and trying to focus that down to two or three
options, especially for the male students. Ifyou give them a list of dozens, it's gonna
take them a long time, if ever do they actuallycome back to you to choose one of them. The
other aspect of this, I would say, is when itcomes to generally speaking for genders and
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the psychology behind them. Female identifyingpeople and students do tend to be more presently
focused. And so they are looking to do thesethings where they're learning about themselves.
They're learning about the world around them.They're Interested in self-discovery or even
self authorship, right? But the male identifyingstudents or people in the world tend to be
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more future-oriented Now part of this couldbe attributed to our culture of you know, you
need to find a job You need to contribute tosociety you need to Contribute for your family,
but males do tend to adhere to that very stronglyAnd so the programs that are going to appeal
to them are going to be different and they'regoing to be based on those value systems most
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likely. I really like what you said about modifyingthe approach to advising and being intentional
about the programs that you put in front ofmale identifying students in particular and
how you do so. Is there anything else you wantto expand on as it relates to advising? Specifically,
if you're advising students and in any capacity,I think there's a couple of things you should
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keep in mind. advisors and others in the fieldshould learn to adapt to the student, adapt
to their behavior, adapt to their goals, whatare they seeking, especially when it comes
to male students. Their behavior and mannerismsmay be different, and I'm saying this of course
because the mass majority of our field doestend to be female advisors or females in these
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roles. And so that
they can say certain things, they may not, theymay actually avoid certain topics because of
that. And so that's one of the biggest areasthat I could see us contributing, but also
knowing that male students tend to try to connectin ways that are gonna enhance their lives
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or enhance their future, talking to them abouthow study abroad could actually make them more
marketable, more professionally appealing. tyingit to their career goals or even their personal
goals. For some of those, like myself beinga incurable romantic, I chose to study French
and I chose to study abroad in France the firsttime because of that. So, um, there is certainly
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a layer of personal goals that plays into wherewe choose to go to. We often talk about study
abroad as being a transformative experiencein this field. Would you please share with
our listeners some more of your thoughts onhow we should be articulating the outcomes
of study abroad in ways that will resonate withmale students? I do think that this discussion
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really needs to be about their future. It needsto be about how a male student could use this
opportunity to accomplish future goals. I wouldalso say that you could even articulate it
in ways of things to do. check boxes, checkmarks, whether it's things for them to accomplish.
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And for some of them, it might even be thingsto conquer. It sounds kind of odd to say it
that way, but for a lot of young male students,that idea of conquering the world really stands
out to them and adventure, but in a very differentway than the female students that come into
the office seeking adventure. And you can imaginewhat that might look like, but we need to honestly,
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I believe we need to challenge them. The malestudents that come into our office oftentimes
may not feel as challenged in the higher educationsystem here in the United States, and so they
could be looking for something bigger, and theycould be, they're probably looking for a different
kind of experience when they go abroad. Don'tfeel afraid, especially as a female advisor
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or practitioner, to try to challenge your malestudents that come into your office. By challenging
them, I mean proposing non-traditional locations.proposing programs that might be academically
rigorous, opportunities that are gonna givethem a sense of accomplishment when they're
done and when they come home. Our field hasimproved in the way in which we articulate
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study abroad in leaps and bounds in the timethat I've been doing this work. With this in
mind, what would be your advice for how femalepractitioners who may be listening in terms
of how they can best work with male identifyingstudents? I do believe that a lot of the discussions
that can be had should be a little more informal.For a lot of the male students, you're going
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to connect with them a lot easier if you canconnect with them on a personal level. And
it seems odd or it might seem hard, difficultto do, but in a lot of cases, that's what the
male students may need. Some of them are probablyfeeling unattached, especially right now in
the current culture and socio-political climate.A lot of male students may not feel connected
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on campus. I've had a lot of male students talkto me over the years and saying that they don't
quite feel like they belong in higher ed, inthe college or the university that they're
at. But they're just doing it to get the degreeand they're doing it to further their career
or because they have to, right? Because theirfamily said they had to. And so giving them
those connections across campus is going tobe world changing for them. I can say the same.
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The two programs that I did as a student wereactually faculty led and they were both female
faculty. But I absolutely loved these facultymembers. And when they asked if I would be
interested in joining them, I jumped at it.But it was because I had that connection with
them. And they had some interest in my worldbeyond me just making a grade in their class.
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It was beyond that. If advisors, whether you'remale or female, if advisors can connect with
the male students specifically and give thema purpose to your conversation and give them
a purpose to finding opportunities in studyabroad. That is going to go a very long way
in making them feel like the institution cares,but also that their advisor cares about them.
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We know that representation matters. And partof successful student recruitment is marketing
and outreach that takes this into consideration.What role does a visual rhetoric play in reaching
students? I think that the marketing that wedo in our field tends to be very female-centric.
Of not entirely our fault because the majorityof students going on our programs are female
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and so you know you want to reach the largestaudience possible right if you're trying to
outreach to diverse students it can be verydifficult especially if you haven't had different
demographics of students on your programs especiallyon your programs and taking photos taking video
actually being represented in your student organizationsor within your office I think one of the biggest
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aspects to this that we could adopt for ourfield is coming up with marketing specifically
for male students in which it shows males doingthings. If they are in an office, they are
probably not going to be appealing to it. Ifit's in the classroom, that is not going to
appeal to men as much, unfortunately. If youcan catch them while they're on excursions,
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while they're doing activities, even if it'swhile they're cooking some foreign food. But
if they're out and about and actually doingsome sort of activities, especially if it's
something constructing something, or if it'san engineering program where they're working
with a 3d printer or other equipment, if youcan get images of those things and then have
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those in your ad advertising and marketing,that is actually going to appeal to most male
students much more often. I really like whatyou said because it ties a couple of points
that you've already made Brian in that intentionalvisual rhetoric. can not only allow male students
to see themselves participating in our programs,but can help them understand the outcomes of
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participating in our programs. So we'll havesome listeners reaching out to you to brainstorm
about flyers, I'm sure. So thank you for sharingthat. Thank you for sharing that, Brian. Higher
education is a subculture all of its own. Andlike any culture, it has inherent values and
norms. How do you believe these intersect withgender identity? and study abroad participation?
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I guess we can't actually answer this questionfully without bringing intersectionality into
it. That is one of the key areas that I liketo talk about. And not in the sociopolitical
sense, right? Because a lot of people have politicizedthe term intersectionality. But in the sense
of when you go abroad, you're actually gonnabe given a very different cultural circumstance
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and... For a lot of students, this is goingto be the first time that they're encountering
these things. And so, whether they identifyas LGBTQ or not, if they do not identify as
a minority status, so to speak, study abroadis still going to be very different for them
and it's going to engage their identity. I alwayslove to share that, you know, I as an Asian
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male, when I go abroad, the first thing I getencountered with is usually foreign people
asking which Asian country I'm from. And typicallyit's usually asking if I'm directly Chinese,
but that of course is not the case. For thosewho don't know me, I am actually South Korean
by birth, but of course, you know, raised herein the United States. But then as soon as I
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open my mouth and they hear that I'm speakingAmerican English, their entire worldview of
me shifts as well. And so I think that thisis quite a concept that we could actually share
with our students in that their identity isgoing to get challenged. And it might be the
first time in their lives that they actuallyhave that kind of experience as well. We're
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here today talking about who goes abroad. Andwe know that female identifying students are
the leaders when it comes to the numbers. Butif we know this, and we also know that there
are more women enrolled in higher educationinstitutions in general, one might ask why
the number and proportion of women is not growingeven more. What are your thoughts here, Brian
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Henry? I think that the FOMO and the JOMO reallyplays out, especially for the female students.
I think also our modern culture of socioeconomicvalues, sociopolitical values has really played
out for a lot of them. And so a lot of femalestudents now are actually feeling this urge
or this desire or maybe this, unfortunately,the necessity to also come to college to get
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a job to then be able to afford life. And ofcourse, the overwhelming increase in costs
in our nation, the socioeconomic status hasjust risen overall nationwide. And so I think
women are seeing that and also having to adapttheir lifestyle to meet that. The other piece
to this though, is I think that institutionsare becoming female dominant, but at the same
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time, that means that they're also getting asmuch FOMO as the male students typically do.
When it comes to doing things on campus, theyare also the leaders on campus a lot of times,
and they are involved in a lot of things. Andthat plays out every day of their lives, whether
it's from Greek life, or it's also athletics,or it's student organizations, or it's events
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on campus. We have the exact same discussionswith them as far as when would be the best
time to study abroad, and why they may not beable to because of the many things that they're
involved in. Sports is certainly a barrier,right? And particularly for all students, but
in particularly male identifying students. Canyou talk more, Brian, about how our listeners
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could be intentionally collaborative with athleticdepartments when it comes to this topic? Really,
the biggest role for this is what kind of institutionare you at? Also, what kind of office are you
in? Because, you know, if you're in an officethat doesn't deal with, uh, faculty led programming,
so to speak, or short-term programming as often,then you may not be able to enact as much change
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or be able to have as much control over beingable to help athletes study abroad. However,
if you're in an office or at an institutionwhere your office does have a lot of say over
short-term programming over faculty led programming,then you may be able to work with the athletics
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very closely. So. Um, this, this is of coursemeans like your, you and your staff could go
into those departments and meet with the academicsleadership and talk to them about opportunities
abroad. There are some fantastic opportunitiesout there. A lot of times it's through providers.
Um, but also there's some other colleges outthere that do kinesiology programs and athletics
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programs. Um, there's a German sport collegespecifically. that I know of that you could
take a team to for a few weeks. Those kindsof opportunities where the students could actually
go abroad as a team especially and then connectwith athletes internationally are going to
be life changing, but also give the athleticsdepartment an opportunity to provide their
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students with a very unique experience thatnot a lot of institutions really get to offer.
I think athletic travel is a really interestingarea. It's one that doesn't always appear in
open doors data provided through IIE, becausestudents aren't often receiving academic credit.
So I, this is an area, you know, World Strideshas a whole division dedicated to sports, and
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it's just an area that I find completely fascinating.We know, Brian, that international education
is a female-driven field. How could we ensurethat male-identifying students feel welcome
in our spaces and have a sense of belonging?Yeah, Zach, I think that's an extremely important
question to answer, actually, because male identifyingstudents are just like any other student that
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comes into our space. They need to feel belongingjust as much as other students do. Even if
they're not a minority identifying student,they still have to have that. And I think we
do a disservice to those students if we allowthem to walk into our space and assume that
they're not. that they feel like they fit injust because they are male or they are white
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or they are cisgendered in those capacities.If we just let them come in and we don't pay
attention to them and we don't talk to themand we don't connect with them, they are going
to feel as absent and as disconnected to ouroffice as any other student would. So I think
that's the biggest piece to this question thatI would propose for the field is just being
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sure that you're talking to each student thatcomes in. in the same capacity and being open
and honest with them and also inviting themand welcoming them to be in your space and
to have discussions that you would with anyother student. Incredibly well put. Thank you,
my friend. Brian, we know you to be a personwho is committed to connecting across campus
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and across communities. Who are you collaboratingwith at DU and what ironess you currently have
in the fire? The easier probably would actuallybe. Who am I not collaborating with right now?
But I honestly am a, I guess, as most peoplewho have met me, I am extremely social. I'm
very networky. But at the same time, I'm veryhonest about it. And I'm very genuine. You
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know, I meet somebody across campus, or I meetsomebody at a conference, right? I actually
genuinely care about you, though. And I carewhere you come from, your story. I care what
makes you. get up in the morning, what motivatesyou, why you're in this field, why you do the
things you do, and what you love. And so thatplays out in my work on the day-to-day as well,
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even with the people I collaborate across campus.And so I would say some of the biggest that
I'm collaborating with right now, specificallyfor these kinds of discussions actually, would
be Greek life and veterans affairs, and alsothe community and values department that's
here on campus. And then several academic departments.I think if we don't have these discussions
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and are very open and honest about them, thennothing will ever change on our campuses to
help support the students and help make ourprogramming better. Well, we know that education
abroad truly takes a village. So I think thoseintentional collaborations that you're spending
time on pay off in spades. So thank you forthat. I want to dig into peer networks a bit.
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What patterns have you observed in the wayspeer networks influence male identifying students
versus female identifying students when it comesto study abroad? That's a great area to talk
about, Zach, because the interesting dynamicthat I've observed on campus, and of course
I've spoken with literally thousands of studentsat this point, is that male students do oftentimes
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tend to congregate when it comes to higher,in higher education. And so when it comes to
studying abroad, the most likely opportunitythat you're going to see is men that are going
abroad in pairs or in small groups. And so ifyou can do this with students and if you can
get them to talk their friend into going, orif you can talk a Greek life organization into
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going, that is one of the biggest areas thatyou're gonna actually see an increase in male
student participation. Because oftentimes theyare not gonna be interested, and I can say
this as a male identifying person myself, butthey are not actually gonna be as interested
in doing some of these things if they're goingalone. Yes, I agree. And it's different to
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conversation, of course, if it's faculty-led,right? Because if they're actually going on
the program, like I mentioned, and they feela connection with the faculty already, that's
in a completely different realm because there'salso a level of power dynamics and there's
a level of respect there that the male studentstypically are going to find appealing. That
(34:11):
is definitely one of the key areas that I'veseen most prevalently is that if you can take
advantage of it, males do tend to go abroadmore often in pairs or groups. And Brian, we
can't have this conversation fully without touchingupon identity related to sexual orientation.
A 2020 survey by the Association of AmericanUniversities found nearly 17% of college students
(34:40):
asexual, queer, or questioning, while 1.7% identifiedas transgender, non-binary, or questioning,
nearly 20% in total. So it comes as no surprisethat more and more students from these groups
are participating in education abroad. How couldwe ensure that we are reaching all populations
(35:03):
with an identity conscious lens? You know, ofcourse I believe that every student who would
like to and who has the eligibility should havethe opportunity to go abroad, and our offices
need to be prepared to support that. And partof this, as you asked previously actually,
is how do you collaborate with across campusto be able to help students go abroad? Because
(35:26):
it's not just your office, it is a village.If you can connect with these student groups,
or if you can connect with the offices across
then you're going to be much more likely torecruit, but you're also going to be able to
support them a lot better. So whether it isworking with the mental health offices or support
(35:47):
offices on campus, it could be with the disciplinaryor student conduct offices to be able to help
students to have those discussions. You know,if your eligibility is hindered on you being
in good standing, what kind of discussion dowe need to have that you may need to improve
your behavior or something that you did previously?in order to go abroad and to be eligible to
(36:08):
maintain your eligibility. The other aspect,of course, is connecting with these groups
across campus, because if you have a multiculturaloffice or a black student union or a faith
based or any of these, connecting with thoseahead of time and giving them the tools that
are needed to have these conversations withtheir students is going to go a long way and
(36:29):
helping them get into your office. But then,of course, we also have to work on our own
biases, right? There's a huge piece to thisthat plays out in our day to day. But if we
have our own unconscious biases, when it comesto these conversations, that's going to play
out in every conversation we have with studentslike that. That students that identify in areas
(36:49):
that we may not be comfortable engaging with.And if we're not comfortable, they're going
to pick up on it much more than we think. Whatthe unconscious mind picks up on psychologically
is a lot more than we'd like to admit usually.But that awkwardness or that unsupportive nature
is going to be felt by the students, whetherthey are LGBTQ or not, whether they are from
(37:13):
another racial demographic or not, especiallystudents as I've had a lot of conversations
with at PWIs or predominantly white institutions,students that already feel like they're outcasted
or ostracized on campus. But if you can bringthem into your office, talk to them about their
life a little bit, connect with them on a slightlypersonal level. it's going to go miles for
(37:35):
them. And I've had, in a weird way, I've hadmultiple students over my years tell me that
I'm the first advisor that seemed to care, andI was their best advisor that they had in college,
which is really an honor to be, but it's alsoa little sad. Because I've only seen them to
study abroad. I'm not seeing them through theirentire college career. So yeah, that would
(37:55):
be my best recommendations for that. Thanksfor being such a tremendous advisor to your
students, Brian, and such an advocate for them.What is a change you'd like to see in the world?
You know, at the very core of this conversation,the core of education abroad and international
education, also given the current events goingon in the world, I think one of the biggest
(38:17):
changes that I would love to see is that peoplestart to understand and love and empathize
with each other no matter where they come from,no matter what context they come from. even
if they don't see the world in the same ideologyand the same mindset, for people to be able
to sit down at the same table and have conversationsand talk through things in a very kind and
(38:41):
compassionate way. Now, of course, I am verywell aware of the fact that I'm quite an altruistic
dreamer in that sense, and I'm very realisticas well. So I know that there's a long ways
to go in that regard, and we may never attainthat, but that's kind of the work that I do.
What I hope comes from it is... If I can helpour students see how other people live in the
(39:04):
world and understand life better because ofthat, and also make them a little softer-hearted
and a little more empathetic, then I've donea good job in my mind. Lastly, as I begin to
wrap up here, I just have one more questionfor you, my friend. As you think about education
abroad in 2024, what makes you hopeful? I thinkwhat makes me hopeful is the same reason why
(39:27):
I got into the field in the first place. Andit's that as a analytical and strategic person
that I am, I can see how our field can playa very tremendous impact in the world at large.
Our field has a very privileged and very uniquesituation when it comes to working with NGOs,
(39:49):
working with governmental organizations, andhaving impacts on local and regional, on the
local and regional level worldwide. And so ifwe can do our due diligence. to teach our students
to go abroad and have these impacts as well.The soft power that can be played and used
by our field to enact very positive change inthe world is where I hope and or what I hope
(40:14):
to see our field actually does, especially inthe future, given the current state of the
world. Well, Brian, I can't tell you how excitedI am to get to work and get more of our male
students studying abroad. I can't thank youenough for being here. This was such a fun
conversation. Thank you for inviting me, Zach.It's been a pleasure. And to our listeners,
(40:35):
thank you for joining us for this episode ofChanging Lives through Education Abroad. This
episode concludes a truly fantastic season.I would like to thank my podcast partners in
crime and spectacular World Strides higher edcolleagues, Lindsay Kelchner and Sarah Kachuba,
without whom this podcast would not be possible.And on behalf of all of us at World Strides,
(40:59):
we wish all of you a spectacular holiday seasonand a very happy new year. We will be back
in early 2024 with season three of ChangingLives to Education Abroad. So keep an eye on
your feed for more fresh, fun, and informativeconversations with international education's
most interesting thought leaders. And as always,Please subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever
(41:24):
you get your podcasts, and share with your friendsand colleagues. Let's create life-changing
moments together.
Male identifying students are just like anyother student that comes into our space. They
need to feel belonging as just as much as otherstudents do. Even if they're not a minority
identifying student, they still have to havethat. We do a disservice to those students
if we allow them to walk into our space andassume that they feel like they fit in just
(00:25):
because they are. male or they are white orthey are cisgendered in those capacities. Hello
everyone. Welcome to this episode of World Stridesinaugural podcast, Changing Lives for Education
Abroad, a weekly series of conversations withinternational education's most interesting
thought leaders, as well as discussions on emergingtrends, best practices and innovation happening
(00:52):
in our field. I'm your host Zach McInnis. SeniorDirector of Campus Partnerships with World
Strides, and I'm really looking forward to thisweek's episode. Today, we're talking about
the gender gap in education abroad and in highereducation at large. According to the Institute
of International Education, approximately 32.6%of study abroad participants identified as
(01:16):
male in a 2019 to 2020 academic year. That'sless than one third, a figure which anecdotally
will make sense to many of our listeners today.For some context though, male identifying students
represented 35% of study abroad participantsin the 2000 and 2001 academic year. So, despite
(01:37):
the massive growth in education abroad overthe past 20 years, the proportion of men enrolling
in our programs has, if anything, declined overthe past two decades. Why is this? Why is it
important? How should practitioners be thinkingabout this issue? I'm excited to welcome my
good friend, Brian Henry, onto the podcast tohelp us unpack this issue. Brian is currently
(02:01):
a program manager in the Office of InternationalEducation at the University of Denver and one
of our field's brightest rising stars. He'sbeen active at Education Abroad for nearly
a decade and has presented on various aspectsof student development, diversity and inclusion,
and racial justice. Believe me, you wanna findBrian Henry at a conference. He's also just
(02:23):
a fascinating guy who I love kicking ideas aroundwith. I can't wait to dive into this topic.
Stay tuned because you do not want to miss ourconversation today about the missing men in
study abroad. Brian Henry, welcome to the podcast.Hey Zach, thanks for inviting me. I'm happy
to be here and honored. Absolutely. To begin,I'd like to ask you to introduce yourself and
(02:45):
give us an overview of your career up to thispoint and share a bit about education abroad
at the University of Denver. Yeah, so my experienceis overlapping with several different institutions,
including public, private, and a couple of flagshipsas well. So I've gotten to see thousands of
students at this point go abroad across multipleinstitutions and have had the ability to use
(03:13):
my career in a very positive way. And as youknow, I'm quite altruistic in this sense. While
our community and international education includesfolks from all walks of life coming from a
wide variety of entry points, we don't oftenhear about a military background as in some
other fields. And I know you've had some timein the service and I want to say thank you
(03:34):
for your service. And I'd like to ask you howyour time with the military informs your work
as an education abroad practitioner. It reallydictates a lot of what I do. first of all it's
a huge part of my identity because of a fewreasons. One of the biggest being family. My
father was in Vietnam, my grandparents werein World War II, and so there's that lineage
(03:58):
piece to it. I of course started college andthen entered after my first year of college,
entered the military for a short time, whichwas just a year and a half after 9-11. So that
was definitely a huge contributing factor. Theother piece to it is my identity as an Asian
American, which unfortunately has not been themost positive experience living in the United
(04:21):
States growing up here and being adopted asI am, but being raised by American parents
and joining the military in a sense was my wayto prove my American citizenship, which is
really in some ways good and in some ways kindof sad that I felt the need to do that at that
age. But when it comes to the experience, Ido think a couple of key pieces that I brought
(04:44):
from that into international education is thediversity of the military. I was able to interact
with many people, the military being the mostdiverse workforce in the United States. That's
interesting. Yeah. And it was also integrated,you know, post-Civil War. Well, technically
(05:05):
during the Civil War, it was integrated. Andever since then. Over time, of course, it's
taken a lot of work and it's taken a lot ofyears, but it has encompassed pretty much almost
every aspect of diversity within our country.The other part to it is the discipline. I tend
to get up early. I get to work early and beingable to stay on track, stay scheduled is really
(05:29):
something that I learned from that. Also, Iwould say that one of the largest pieces that
I bring to the field are the core values thatI learned while I was in the military. Even
though it was not a career and it was a shortstint, there were two primary pieces that I
pulled in. One was the Air Force Honor Code.I will not lie, cheat, or steal, and nor condone
(05:49):
those who do. And the other part was the ArmyHonor Code, which is also known as leadership.
It's not quite the exact acronym, but the leadershipstands for loyalty, duty, respect, selfless
service, honor, integrity, and personal courage.or personal sacrifice in some circles. So taking
(06:11):
those values that I listed and those valuesthat I learned from the military, I adopt them
and adapt them to the field almost every dayin a variety of ways. I love that. Yeah, thanks
for sharing that and tying those two very distinctbut related worlds together. I imagine your
office is much neater than mine in terms ofthe discipline that you bring to your work.
(06:33):
Sometimes. But let's dive into today's topic,Brian, which is the intersection of participation
rates and gender identity in education abroad.All of us in this field share the dream of
bringing study abroad to as many learners aswe can. I often call it study abroad for all.
We also know that female identifying studentshave been the most represented when we look
(06:59):
at participation rates as a whole, which isa trend that has persisted and perhaps accelerated
over time. We're talking about this topic todaywith a focus on increasing our reach as educators.
Simply put, if we want to grow in terms of accessand participation, we need to reach more male
identifying students. Brian, please start usoff by painting a brief picture. For folks
(07:25):
who are a little fresher to the field, whatare the broad strokes of the numbers we are
seeing as it relates to gender identity andeducation abroad? really begins with a first
look at higher ed overall. Since to 2010, highereducation has been declining, as we know. The
interesting fact to that is that higher educationhas actually been, the enrollment was increasing
(07:49):
from 1985 to 2010, and then when 2010 hit, it'sbeen on an ever-decreasing slope. The interesting
fact to that is... that it actually has beenacross both genders. And for those who may
not know the statistics, female enrollment incollege has actually overtaken men since about
(08:11):
1975. So it's been on an ever-increasing rate.But the piece to education abroad that then
we pull into this conversation is that since2010, the number of white students going abroad,
ratio-wise has gone down, but that is becausethe ratio of students that identify as other
(08:31):
races or minorities has gone up. The interestingpiece to that is, is that Latin and Hispanic
students have actually nearly doubled since2010 to 2021. Kind of fascinating to see that.
I also have, if you look at the data, it's fascinatingto see the comparison of how costs have gone
up ever increasingly as the number of enrollmentshave gone down. So there may be a correlation
(08:55):
there between the cost of higher education,the cost of studying abroad, and then the number
of students that we're actually seeing. If I'mrecalling my statistics correctly, I believe
male students, or students identifying as amale, is represented about 42% of the higher
education population. And Brian, knowing youas I do, I'm sure you have at least one work
(09:18):
in theory as it relates to why male identifyingstudents are less likely to study abroad. Please
share with us your thoughts on why we're seeingthe patterns that we are. Well, it is a working
theory, but as someone who has gotten to workin the field for the majority of this time
of decline in enrollment, one of the theoriesthat I've seen as many of us have across our
(09:41):
campuses is that there's actually been a significantincrease in students identifying as LGBTQ.
And so I would go as far as arguing that becauseof the value systems that students are identifying
those students are actually seeing study abroadas an opportunity and pursuing it. And so the
(10:04):
decline I would say is more on the, as we wouldcall cis-gendered, uh, male, male identifying
students, um, is actually decreasing at thesame time, though the LGBTQ students are increasing.
And so it's a fascinating thing. And that Ithink is why we've seen this one third to two
third ratio since about 2000, at least. andit stayed relatively the same, even though
(10:30):
the ratio of students demographically has changeddrastically. One intriguing aspect that you've
pointed out to me in a prior conversation thatwe've had is that this topic could be related
to values and the overall landscape of highereducation. What about education abroad in particular
speaks more to folks who identify as women andless to men, would you say? I think a big piece
(10:54):
to that, and we can discuss a little more indepth later, but a big piece to that is the
way that we frame the field. There is certainlya large amount of discussion around self-discovery,
seeing the world, finding yourself, gainingindependence, and of course travel. And as
we know, these value systems, at least generallyspeaking, these value systems tend to be more
(11:20):
appealing to female-identifying students. Sothat in itself is probably one of the largest
ways that we could enact change, is trying toreframe the conversation and reframe how we
talk about education abroad to our students.Brian, you mentioned earlier that in your past
(11:40):
decade of experience in our field, you've hadthe pleasure of working in a variety of different
types of institutions all over the country.What have you noticed from those experience?
in terms of the types of programs and even locationsthat male identifying students tend to find
more appealing. There's actually a twofold tothis that I feel like I should respond to.
(12:01):
So one of the biggest pieces is, I would arguethat the majority of men do tend to find shorter
term programming most popular. They certainlydo not have a shortage of FOMO when it comes
to missing out on things on campus. One of thelargest Areas that I've seen, of course, being
athletics and then of course, Greek life isfairly close. As far as factors that students
(12:27):
tend to find that keep them on campus and ofcourse can get in the way of trying to study
abroad. I would say as a majority, a lot ofthe males that I've worked with have been seeking
career-oriented programming. If they're a businessmajor, they are looking for a program that
they can get business credit and even more likely.that they may be interested, many of them are
(12:49):
interested in internships or at least opportunitieswhere they can see or do some of the work that
they might actually be doing in the future.I do want to also add in though that there
is a minority of male students but there arealways these students that come into our office
and they are looking to further themselves asfar as possible and so you'll see them, they're
(13:12):
of course usually double or triple majors. They'reinvolved in things all across campus. But these
kinds of male students that come into your officeare probably looking for adventure, but they're
also trying to find ways to better themselves.And so they're the types that are gonna go
on your very experiential programming. That'sinteresting. They might be open to internships
(13:36):
and classes at the same time, even overloadingon classes while they're there. But you'll
see them and you'll know when you meet thesekinds of students. because they'll be enrolling
in classes that are, you know, advanced fortheir major as opposed to food and wine in
said country. Absolutely. Supporting collegestudents as we do means we are working with
(13:58):
young people every single day. During theseyoung adult years, students are finding their
path and there can be a fear of failure or makingthe wrong choice, whatever that may be. To
what extent do you think this fear plays inthe decisions that students make around the
decision to study abroad and how is gender afactor? I think the decline in 2010 can really
(14:21):
be attributed to the housing market crash. Andso a lot of these students have grown up watching
their families struggle, watching these changeshappen within our society and within our culture.
And then of course we can't miss out on thefact that. Over the past several years, the
socio-political landscape of the United Stateshas changed drastically as well. And that can
(14:44):
be attributed to political leaders, but it canalso be attributed to social movements that
are coming into the limelight. That being said,I think one of the some of the biggest aspects
that students are taken into account is theFOMO or the JOMO. For those who have never
heard the term, the JOMO is actually the joyof missing out. decade, I've actually seen
(15:08):
a huge uptick of this in our students. The FOMOis either in terms of missing out on something
on campus, but the JOMO actually comes in termsof when we present them with hundreds of program
options, they don't know what to pick becausethey have a fear of picking the wrong place
and the wrong program. Part of this, I think,is our due diligence or responsibility to try
(15:30):
to find programs that'll work for these students.and trying to focus that down to two or three
options, especially for the male students. Ifyou give them a list of dozens, it's gonna
take them a long time, if ever do they actuallycome back to you to choose one of them. The
other aspect of this, I would say, is when itcomes to generally speaking for genders and
(15:52):
the psychology behind them. Female identifyingpeople and students do tend to be more presently
focused. And so they are looking to do thesethings where they're learning about themselves.
They're learning about the world around them.They're Interested in self-discovery or even
self authorship, right? But the male identifyingstudents or people in the world tend to be
(16:14):
more future-oriented Now part of this couldbe attributed to our culture of you know, you
need to find a job You need to contribute tosociety you need to Contribute for your family,
but males do tend to adhere to that very stronglyAnd so the programs that are going to appeal
to them are going to be different and they'regoing to be based on those value systems most
(16:34):
likely. I really like what you said about modifyingthe approach to advising and being intentional
about the programs that you put in front ofmale identifying students in particular and
how you do so. Is there anything else you wantto expand on as it relates to advising? Specifically,
if you're advising students and in any capacity,I think there's a couple of things you should
(16:56):
keep in mind. advisors and others in the fieldshould learn to adapt to the student, adapt
to their behavior, adapt to their goals, whatare they seeking, especially when it comes
to male students. Their behavior and mannerismsmay be different, and I'm saying this of course
because the mass majority of our field doestend to be female advisors or females in these
(17:21):
roles. And so that
they can say certain things, they may not, theymay actually avoid certain topics because of
that. And so that's one of the biggest areasthat I could see us contributing, but also
knowing that male students tend to try to connectin ways that are gonna enhance their lives
(17:46):
or enhance their future, talking to them abouthow study abroad could actually make them more
marketable, more professionally appealing. tyingit to their career goals or even their personal
goals. For some of those, like myself beinga incurable romantic, I chose to study French
and I chose to study abroad in France the firsttime because of that. So, um, there is certainly
(18:11):
a layer of personal goals that plays into wherewe choose to go to. We often talk about study
abroad as being a transformative experiencein this field. Would you please share with
our listeners some more of your thoughts onhow we should be articulating the outcomes
of study abroad in ways that will resonate withmale students? I do think that this discussion
(18:33):
really needs to be about their future. It needsto be about how a male student could use this
opportunity to accomplish future goals. I wouldalso say that you could even articulate it
in ways of things to do. check boxes, checkmarks, whether it's things for them to accomplish.
(18:54):
And for some of them, it might even be thingsto conquer. It sounds kind of odd to say it
that way, but for a lot of young male students,that idea of conquering the world really stands
out to them and adventure, but in a very differentway than the female students that come into
the office seeking adventure. And you can imaginewhat that might look like, but we need to honestly,
(19:18):
I believe we need to challenge them. The malestudents that come into our office oftentimes
may not feel as challenged in the higher educationsystem here in the United States, and so they
could be looking for something bigger, and theycould be, they're probably looking for a different
kind of experience when they go abroad. Don'tfeel afraid, especially as a female advisor
(19:40):
or practitioner, to try to challenge your malestudents that come into your office. By challenging
them, I mean proposing non-traditional locations.proposing programs that might be academically
rigorous, opportunities that are gonna givethem a sense of accomplishment when they're
done and when they come home. Our field hasimproved in the way in which we articulate
(20:02):
study abroad in leaps and bounds in the timethat I've been doing this work. With this in
mind, what would be your advice for how femalepractitioners who may be listening in terms
of how they can best work with male identifyingstudents? I do believe that a lot of the discussions
that can be had should be a little more informal.For a lot of the male students, you're going
(20:26):
to connect with them a lot easier if you canconnect with them on a personal level. And
it seems odd or it might seem hard, difficultto do, but in a lot of cases, that's what the
male students may need. Some of them are probablyfeeling unattached, especially right now in
the current culture and socio-political climate.A lot of male students may not feel connected
(20:46):
on campus. I've had a lot of male students talkto me over the years and saying that they don't
quite feel like they belong in higher ed, inthe college or the university that they're
at. But they're just doing it to get the degreeand they're doing it to further their career
or because they have to, right? Because theirfamily said they had to. And so giving them
those connections across campus is going tobe world changing for them. I can say the same.
(21:10):
The two programs that I did as a student wereactually faculty led and they were both female
faculty. But I absolutely loved these facultymembers. And when they asked if I would be
interested in joining them, I jumped at it.But it was because I had that connection with
them. And they had some interest in my worldbeyond me just making a grade in their class.
(21:32):
It was beyond that. If advisors, whether you'remale or female, if advisors can connect with
the male students specifically and give thema purpose to your conversation and give them
a purpose to finding opportunities in studyabroad. That is going to go a very long way
in making them feel like the institution cares,but also that their advisor cares about them.
(21:56):
We know that representation matters. And partof successful student recruitment is marketing
and outreach that takes this into consideration.What role does a visual rhetoric play in reaching
students? I think that the marketing that wedo in our field tends to be very female-centric.
Of not entirely our fault because the majorityof students going on our programs are female
(22:20):
and so you know you want to reach the largestaudience possible right if you're trying to
outreach to diverse students it can be verydifficult especially if you haven't had different
demographics of students on your programs especiallyon your programs and taking photos taking video
actually being represented in your student organizationsor within your office I think one of the biggest
(22:45):
aspects to this that we could adopt for ourfield is coming up with marketing specifically
for male students in which it shows males doingthings. If they are in an office, they are
probably not going to be appealing to it. Ifit's in the classroom, that is not going to
appeal to men as much, unfortunately. If youcan catch them while they're on excursions,
(23:08):
while they're doing activities, even if it'swhile they're cooking some foreign food. But
if they're out and about and actually doingsome sort of activities, especially if it's
something constructing something, or if it'san engineering program where they're working
with a 3d printer or other equipment, if youcan get images of those things and then have
(23:29):
those in your ad advertising and marketing,that is actually going to appeal to most male
students much more often. I really like whatyou said because it ties a couple of points
that you've already made Brian in that intentionalvisual rhetoric. can not only allow male students
to see themselves participating in our programs,but can help them understand the outcomes of
(23:51):
participating in our programs. So we'll havesome listeners reaching out to you to brainstorm
about flyers, I'm sure. So thank you for sharingthat. Thank you for sharing that, Brian. Higher
education is a subculture all of its own. Andlike any culture, it has inherent values and
norms. How do you believe these intersect withgender identity? and study abroad participation?
(24:13):
I guess we can't actually answer this questionfully without bringing intersectionality into
it. That is one of the key areas that I liketo talk about. And not in the sociopolitical
sense, right? Because a lot of people have politicizedthe term intersectionality. But in the sense
of when you go abroad, you're actually gonnabe given a very different cultural circumstance
(24:36):
and... For a lot of students, this is goingto be the first time that they're encountering
these things. And so, whether they identifyas LGBTQ or not, if they do not identify as
a minority status, so to speak, study abroadis still going to be very different for them
and it's going to engage their identity. I alwayslove to share that, you know, I as an Asian
(24:58):
male, when I go abroad, the first thing I getencountered with is usually foreign people
asking which Asian country I'm from. And typicallyit's usually asking if I'm directly Chinese,
but that of course is not the case. For thosewho don't know me, I am actually South Korean
by birth, but of course, you know, raised herein the United States. But then as soon as I
(25:19):
open my mouth and they hear that I'm speakingAmerican English, their entire worldview of
me shifts as well. And so I think that thisis quite a concept that we could actually share
with our students in that their identity isgoing to get challenged. And it might be the
first time in their lives that they actuallyhave that kind of experience as well. We're
(25:40):
here today talking about who goes abroad. Andwe know that female identifying students are
the leaders when it comes to the numbers. Butif we know this, and we also know that there
are more women enrolled in higher educationinstitutions in general, one might ask why
the number and proportion of women is not growingeven more. What are your thoughts here, Brian
(26:04):
Henry? I think that the FOMO and the JOMO reallyplays out, especially for the female students.
I think also our modern culture of socioeconomicvalues, sociopolitical values has really played
out for a lot of them. And so a lot of femalestudents now are actually feeling this urge
or this desire or maybe this, unfortunately,the necessity to also come to college to get
(26:30):
a job to then be able to afford life. And ofcourse, the overwhelming increase in costs
in our nation, the socioeconomic status hasjust risen overall nationwide. And so I think
women are seeing that and also having to adapttheir lifestyle to meet that. The other piece
to this though, is I think that institutionsare becoming female dominant, but at the same
(26:55):
time, that means that they're also getting asmuch FOMO as the male students typically do.
When it comes to doing things on campus, theyare also the leaders on campus a lot of times,
and they are involved in a lot of things. Andthat plays out every day of their lives, whether
it's from Greek life, or it's also athletics,or it's student organizations, or it's events
(27:18):
on campus. We have the exact same discussionswith them as far as when would be the best
time to study abroad, and why they may not beable to because of the many things that they're
involved in. Sports is certainly a barrier,right? And particularly for all students, but
in particularly male identifying students. Canyou talk more, Brian, about how our listeners
(27:41):
could be intentionally collaborative with athleticdepartments when it comes to this topic? Really,
the biggest role for this is what kind of institutionare you at? Also, what kind of office are you
in? Because, you know, if you're in an officethat doesn't deal with, uh, faculty led programming,
so to speak, or short-term programming as often,then you may not be able to enact as much change
(28:06):
or be able to have as much control over beingable to help athletes study abroad. However,
if you're in an office or at an institutionwhere your office does have a lot of say over
short-term programming over faculty led programming,then you may be able to work with the athletics
(28:26):
very closely. So. Um, this, this is of coursemeans like your, you and your staff could go
into those departments and meet with the academicsleadership and talk to them about opportunities
abroad. There are some fantastic opportunitiesout there. A lot of times it's through providers.
Um, but also there's some other colleges outthere that do kinesiology programs and athletics
(28:51):
programs. Um, there's a German sport collegespecifically. that I know of that you could
take a team to for a few weeks. Those kindsof opportunities where the students could actually
go abroad as a team especially and then connectwith athletes internationally are going to
be life changing, but also give the athleticsdepartment an opportunity to provide their
(29:13):
students with a very unique experience thatnot a lot of institutions really get to offer.
I think athletic travel is a really interestingarea. It's one that doesn't always appear in
open doors data provided through IIE, becausestudents aren't often receiving academic credit.
So I, this is an area, you know, World Strideshas a whole division dedicated to sports, and
(29:36):
it's just an area that I find completely fascinating.We know, Brian, that international education
is a female-driven field. How could we ensurethat male-identifying students feel welcome
in our spaces and have a sense of belonging?Yeah, Zach, I think that's an extremely important
question to answer, actually, because male identifyingstudents are just like any other student that
(30:00):
comes into our space. They need to feel belongingjust as much as other students do. Even if
they're not a minority identifying student,they still have to have that. And I think we
do a disservice to those students if we allowthem to walk into our space and assume that
they're not. that they feel like they fit injust because they are male or they are white
(30:24):
or they are cisgendered in those capacities.If we just let them come in and we don't pay
attention to them and we don't talk to themand we don't connect with them, they are going
to feel as absent and as disconnected to ouroffice as any other student would. So I think
that's the biggest piece to this question thatI would propose for the field is just being
(30:45):
sure that you're talking to each student thatcomes in. in the same capacity and being open
and honest with them and also inviting themand welcoming them to be in your space and
to have discussions that you would with anyother student. Incredibly well put. Thank you,
my friend. Brian, we know you to be a personwho is committed to connecting across campus
(31:07):
and across communities. Who are you collaboratingwith at DU and what ironess you currently have
in the fire? The easier probably would actuallybe. Who am I not collaborating with right now?
But I honestly am a, I guess, as most peoplewho have met me, I am extremely social. I'm
very networky. But at the same time, I'm veryhonest about it. And I'm very genuine. You
(31:34):
know, I meet somebody across campus, or I meetsomebody at a conference, right? I actually
genuinely care about you, though. And I carewhere you come from, your story. I care what
makes you. get up in the morning, what motivatesyou, why you're in this field, why you do the
things you do, and what you love. And so thatplays out in my work on the day-to-day as well,
(31:56):
even with the people I collaborate across campus.And so I would say some of the biggest that
I'm collaborating with right now, specificallyfor these kinds of discussions actually, would
be Greek life and veterans affairs, and alsothe community and values department that's
here on campus. And then several academic departments.I think if we don't have these discussions
(32:18):
and are very open and honest about them, thennothing will ever change on our campuses to
help support the students and help make ourprogramming better. Well, we know that education
abroad truly takes a village. So I think thoseintentional collaborations that you're spending
time on pay off in spades. So thank you forthat. I want to dig into peer networks a bit.
(32:41):
What patterns have you observed in the wayspeer networks influence male identifying students
versus female identifying students when it comesto study abroad? That's a great area to talk
about, Zach, because the interesting dynamicthat I've observed on campus, and of course
I've spoken with literally thousands of studentsat this point, is that male students do oftentimes
(33:05):
tend to congregate when it comes to higher,in higher education. And so when it comes to
studying abroad, the most likely opportunitythat you're going to see is men that are going
abroad in pairs or in small groups. And so ifyou can do this with students and if you can
get them to talk their friend into going, orif you can talk a Greek life organization into
(33:29):
going, that is one of the biggest areas thatyou're gonna actually see an increase in male
student participation. Because oftentimes theyare not gonna be interested, and I can say
this as a male identifying person myself, butthey are not actually gonna be as interested
in doing some of these things if they're goingalone. Yes, I agree. And it's different to
(33:49):
conversation, of course, if it's faculty-led,right? Because if they're actually going on
the program, like I mentioned, and they feela connection with the faculty already, that's
in a completely different realm because there'salso a level of power dynamics and there's
a level of respect there that the male studentstypically are going to find appealing. That
(34:11):
is definitely one of the key areas that I'veseen most prevalently is that if you can take
advantage of it, males do tend to go abroadmore often in pairs or groups. And Brian, we
can't have this conversation fully without touchingupon identity related to sexual orientation.
A 2020 survey by the Association of AmericanUniversities found nearly 17% of college students
(34:40):
asexual, queer, or questioning, while 1.7% identifiedas transgender, non-binary, or questioning,
nearly 20% in total. So it comes as no surprisethat more and more students from these groups
are participating in education abroad. How couldwe ensure that we are reaching all populations
(35:03):
with an identity conscious lens? You know, ofcourse I believe that every student who would
like to and who has the eligibility should havethe opportunity to go abroad, and our offices
need to be prepared to support that. And partof this, as you asked previously actually,
is how do you collaborate with across campusto be able to help students go abroad? Because
(35:26):
it's not just your office, it is a village.If you can connect with these student groups,
or if you can connect with the offices across
then you're going to be much more likely torecruit, but you're also going to be able to
support them a lot better. So whether it isworking with the mental health offices or support
(35:47):
offices on campus, it could be with the disciplinaryor student conduct offices to be able to help
students to have those discussions. You know,if your eligibility is hindered on you being
in good standing, what kind of discussion dowe need to have that you may need to improve
your behavior or something that you did previously?in order to go abroad and to be eligible to
(36:08):
maintain your eligibility. The other aspect,of course, is connecting with these groups
across campus, because if you have a multiculturaloffice or a black student union or a faith
based or any of these, connecting with thoseahead of time and giving them the tools that
are needed to have these conversations withtheir students is going to go a long way and
(36:29):
helping them get into your office. But then,of course, we also have to work on our own
biases, right? There's a huge piece to thisthat plays out in our day to day. But if we
have our own unconscious biases, when it comesto these conversations, that's going to play
out in every conversation we have with studentslike that. That students that identify in areas
(36:49):
that we may not be comfortable engaging with.And if we're not comfortable, they're going
to pick up on it much more than we think. Whatthe unconscious mind picks up on psychologically
is a lot more than we'd like to admit usually.But that awkwardness or that unsupportive nature
is going to be felt by the students, whetherthey are LGBTQ or not, whether they are from
(37:13):
another racial demographic or not, especiallystudents as I've had a lot of conversations
with at PWIs or predominantly white institutions,students that already feel like they're outcasted
or ostracized on campus. But if you can bringthem into your office, talk to them about their
life a little bit, connect with them on a slightlypersonal level. it's going to go miles for
(37:35):
them. And I've had, in a weird way, I've hadmultiple students over my years tell me that
I'm the first advisor that seemed to care, andI was their best advisor that they had in college,
which is really an honor to be, but it's alsoa little sad. Because I've only seen them to
study abroad. I'm not seeing them through theirentire college career. So yeah, that would
(37:55):
be my best recommendations for that. Thanksfor being such a tremendous advisor to your
students, Brian, and such an advocate for them.What is a change you'd like to see in the world?
You know, at the very core of this conversation,the core of education abroad and international
education, also given the current events goingon in the world, I think one of the biggest
(38:17):
changes that I would love to see is that peoplestart to understand and love and empathize
with each other no matter where they come from,no matter what context they come from. even
if they don't see the world in the same ideologyand the same mindset, for people to be able
to sit down at the same table and have conversationsand talk through things in a very kind and
(38:41):
compassionate way. Now, of course, I am verywell aware of the fact that I'm quite an altruistic
dreamer in that sense, and I'm very realisticas well. So I know that there's a long ways
to go in that regard, and we may never attainthat, but that's kind of the work that I do.
What I hope comes from it is... If I can helpour students see how other people live in the
(39:04):
world and understand life better because ofthat, and also make them a little softer-hearted
and a little more empathetic, then I've donea good job in my mind. Lastly, as I begin to
wrap up here, I just have one more questionfor you, my friend. As you think about education
abroad in 2024, what makes you hopeful? I thinkwhat makes me hopeful is the same reason why
(39:27):
I got into the field in the first place. Andit's that as a analytical and strategic person
that I am, I can see how our field can playa very tremendous impact in the world at large.
Our field has a very privileged and very uniquesituation when it comes to working with NGOs,
(39:49):
working with governmental organizations, andhaving impacts on local and regional, on the
local and regional level worldwide. And so ifwe can do our due diligence. to teach our students
to go abroad and have these impacts as well.The soft power that can be played and used
by our field to enact very positive change inthe world is where I hope and or what I hope
(40:14):
to see our field actually does, especially inthe future, given the current state of the
world. Well, Brian, I can't tell you how excitedI am to get to work and get more of our male
students studying abroad. I can't thank youenough for being here. This was such a fun
conversation. Thank you for inviting me, Zach.It's been a pleasure. And to our listeners,
(40:35):
thank you for joining us for this episode ofChanging Lives through Education Abroad. This
episode concludes a truly fantastic season.I would like to thank my podcast partners in
crime and spectacular World Strides higher edcolleagues, Lindsay Kelchner and Sarah Kachuba,
without whom this podcast would not be possible.And on behalf of all of us at World Strides,
(40:59):
we wish all of you a spectacular holiday seasonand a very happy new year. We will be back
in early 2024 with season three of ChangingLives to Education Abroad. So keep an eye on
your feed for more fresh, fun, and informativeconversations with international education's
most interesting thought leaders. And as always,Please subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever
(41:24):
you get your podcasts, and share with your friendsand colleagues. Let's create life-changing
moments together.
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