April 15, 2024 • 38 mins
In this episode of Christian Book Blurb, host Matt McChlery interviews authors Claire and Steve Musters about their book, Grace-Filled Marriage. The couple shares their personal journey of building a healthy marriage and the challenges they faced along the way. They discuss the importance of hard work, taking responsibility, and dying to self in a marriage. They also emphasize the need for open and honest communication, seeking support from trusted friends, and relying on God's grace. The book offers a refreshing perspective on marriage, addressing the hard stuff and providing practical advice for couples. Claire and Steve also chat about their love of music and going to the theatre, watching The Great British Bake-Off and Dragons Den with their kids and they share what their favourite worship song at the moment. Listen now.
Links
This episode was kindly sponsored by St Andrews Literature Festival: stalitfest.co.uk
Help keep this podcast on the web by simply buying me a coffee https://www.buymeacoffee.com/mattmcchlery
Get yourself a copy of Grace Filled Marriage from St Andrews Bookshop
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Visit Claire Musters' Website
Visit Matt McChlery's website mattmcchlery.com
Takeaways
- Building a healthy marriage requires hard work and effort.
- Taking responsibility for one's actions and attitudes is crucial in a marriage.
- Dying to self and prioritizing the needs of one's partner is essential for a thriving marriage.
- Open and honest communication, seeking support from trusted friends, and relying on God's grace are key elements in a healthy marriage.
- Marriage is a mission field, and couples should strive to support and encourage each other in their individual and shared journeys.
- Marriage is a reflection of Christ and the church, and sacrificial love is at its core.
- Marriage preparation courses, cultivating friendships, and having a shared vision for the future are important for couples starting their marriage journey.
- Complacency can be detrimental to a long-term marriage, and regular check-ins and intentional efforts are necessary to keep the relationship strong.
- For those who have experienced a breakdown in their marriage, it is important to seek healing individually and give space and time for reconciliation.
- There is no condemnation in Christ, and God's grace can restore broken marriages.
- Claire and Steve Musters have written other books on topics such as grief and lament, and their books can be found on Claire's website.
Chapters
00:00 Building a Healthy Marriage: The Importance of Hard Work 14:28 Dying to Self: Prioritizing the Needs of Your Partner 26:01 Healing and Reconciliation: Restoring Broken Marriages with God's Grace 34:29 Other Books by Claire and Steve Musters: Grief and Lament
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Christian Book Blurb brought toyou by author and songwriter Matt McChlery
Get a behind the scenes glimpse into thelives of some of your favourite Christian
authors, hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website,mattmcleary .com.
This episode is sponsored by St AndrewsLiterature Festival, which is a Christian
(00:22):
literature festival being held in GreatMissenden here in the UK on the 21st and
the 22nd of June.
Find out more and get your tickets nowfrom www .staLitFest .co .uk Well hello
and welcome to The Christian Book Blurb,the podcast that likes to encourage you in
your discipleship one book at a time as wemeet some amazing Christian authors and
(00:47):
learn about their books, their lives andtheir faith.
Well I'm your host Matt McChlery, thanksfor joining me today, welcome aboard, and
on today's show I'm going to be talkingabout
How to Build a Healthy Marriage with theauthors Claire and Steve Musters Well, hi
Claire and Steve, welcome to the show.
Hello, thanks for having us.
(01:08):
Hi.
It's really good to have you both with ustoday.
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
I must say that this is the first timeI've had a husband and wife team who've
written a book together that I'veinterviewed on the podcast.
That's really exciting.
Well, I hope that goes well then.
Yeah, so do I.
Um, so first of all, we're talking aboutmarriage and you're a husband and wife
(01:32):
team.
So I guess the most obvious question toask first is how long have you been
married?
Well, we've been married 30 years.
Um, and, uh, that was last year, wasn'tit?
We celebrated our 30th anniversary.
Um, and, uh, we met as teenagers, so we'veknown each other for a very, very long
(01:54):
time.
not going to tell you quite how.
The title of the episode mentions buildinga marriage, which implies effort and hard
work.
So, um, in your 30 years of experience,has your marriage required hard work or
has it been fairly easy and plain sailing?
(02:14):
Yes.
Well, I think that's why we ended upwriting a book because it was very
difficult.
And, and yes, you're...
Your title is talking about building ahealthy marriage.
And I think for us, we didn't really getthe chance to build healthy foundations,
which is why we ran into difficultiesfairly early on.
(02:36):
Yeah.
I mean, basically, although we knew eachother for a very long time before getting
married, when we finally did take theplunge, my work situation meant that I
just wasn't around.
I was in the music industry, I was workingseven days a week, very, very, very little
(02:57):
time off.
And so we went straight into married life,almost with Claire as basically in effect
being single.
So I can remember my mum sitting me downand saying, do you really want to do this?
And she absolutely adored Steve.
She said that it was like the son thatshe'd never had.
(03:18):
But
could already see that it was a realstrain once Steve started working in the
studio.
And I said, well, I fell in love with himyears ago, it's a bit late for that.
But we didn't do things like marriage prepbecause I said, I'm not going to go to
that by myself, I would feel reallyawkward.
And so yes, we went into marriage havingbeen best friends for years, but not
(03:40):
having done that hard work of what happenswhen the rubber hits the road.
And so when it did,
Um, it was really tricky and we had adecade of struggle where, um, I would say
probably a couple of times a year, I can'tkeep doing this.
Um, and yet somehow we couldn't see it anyother way forward.
And so we just kind of knuckled down andcarried on it until I just couldn't do it
(04:03):
anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And for me, I suppose it was just thatsense of burying your head in the sand.
Um, thinking we will get through thissomehow.
It will be okay.
There will be a better day.
without actively doing anything about it.
So there was a lot of complacency, a lotof unrealistic expectations as well.
(04:23):
We were very young when we got married.
You'd just turned 20, hadn't you?
And I wasn't that much older.
So there was, yeah, unrealisticexpectations leading to unmet
expectations, leading to disappointment,frustration, and all the other things for,
actually became a very unhealthy mix.
(04:44):
Yeah.
And I think -
we'd got married so young, we were theonly people in our friendship group that
were married.
And so we used to look at all of themarried couples at church and think that
they had everything together.
And in the times when I did say to Steve,we need to talk to somebody about it, he
didn't really want to because he's quite aprivate person.
Very ironic now that he's written a bookabout all of this.
(05:05):
But I quickly shut that idea down.
I didn't really want to go to people thatwe didn't know that well and admit that we
were really, really struggling.
And so that went on for a decade until itcame to a crunch point.
And we ended up separating at just set atime where we were beginning to help start
a new church.
(05:26):
So there are huge, big reasons and it wasall very difficult.
And I did actually leave with somebodyelse who was part of that church plant.
And fortunately God,
dealt with that within a couple of weeks,which I say fortunately now it was
incredibly painful.
But Steve was the first person that Icalled once he had left, which was quite
(05:48):
telling.
I think I'd already realized within thosefirst couple of weeks that I really missed
Steve.
But of course there was a lot of pain andhurt and we couldn't just jump straight
back in.
So Steve actually moved me down to myparents.
So I was nearing my 30th birthday andthought I'd lost everything.
I just
I was a book editor and I just startedwriting Christian books and I thought,
(06:12):
well, I can't do that anymore.
I'm a complete hypocrite and all of thatstuff.
So I've lost my husband, my home, my work,my church.
So they're never going to let me back inthere.
So I felt my whole world was in tatters.
And that's at that point, God just reallymet me and affirmed me and just poured his
love out on me and was doing a work inSteve at the same time, which he can talk
(06:34):
about.
But it was from that point where I feltGod's unconditional love.
And I then had to work through all her andall the issues for us then to think, are
we at a place where we feel like we canrebuild?
And it was at that point that the hardwork of building some, some healthy
foundations started.
Foundations that should have been in thereright at the very beginning.
(06:54):
Yeah.
Oh, thank you for sharing that part ofyour story with us.
And I just want to say for the benefit ofour listeners that you can read a whole
lot more.
about the story that that Steve and Clairehave just been starting to share in their
book called Grace -Filled MarriageStrengthened and Transformed Through God's
(07:14):
Redemptive Love.
And I just wanted to say, having read thebook, that I really appreciate the fact
that you don't often get Christian bookson marriage where they talk about the hard
stuff and like the authors have actuallylived through it.
It's usually, oh, look at this pictureperfect kind of marriage.
(07:37):
Here it is.
This is what you need to do to keep it.
But you really, yeah, no holes barredreally.
You tell it like it is.
It's one of the reasons why we wanted towrite it because in our experience, you
know, when we were looking around forbooks, I mean, there are some great books
on marriage out there, but as you say, alot of them were just like this ideal that
(08:00):
seemed incredibly, um,
of almost like a fantasy, will we ever getto that point?
And I think one of the reasons, as I said,we wrote that book was to actually give an
honest, personal, I suppose, account thatyes, marriage is absolutely beautiful.
It is the most wonderful God -given gift,but it is really hard work.
(08:24):
And we do face challenges in life and weneed to be incredibly honest and open
about them.
I wasn't at the time, which
Obviously, as Claire said, led to a wholeload of difficulties.
But I think if we can be transparent, ifwe can be honest, if we can talk about our
challenges in our relationships, then thatgoes a huge long way to being strengthened
(08:47):
and being equipped.
And I don't, I mean, as you all know, thebook's not just our story.
That's kind of like the starting point.
And we've invited other contributors inbecause we know this is a very specific
story.
And, but there are also,
general principles in there that we thinkare really relevant for any marriage, but
we also ask people that living withchronic illnesses, living with a mental
(09:10):
health illness, all sorts of differentcoming together from two different
cultures.
There's all sorts of different things.
So hopefully a personal story will alsoresonate with readers as well.
I'd written this story from my side at thebeginning of a different book called
Taking Off the Mask, which
It was at the point where I walked backinto church after we decided that we were
(09:33):
gonna make a go of things.
And probably because Steve had been thefirst person I'd called, I'd got that over
with pretty quickly.
And I knew that he was still there for me.
But we obviously had to journey and havecounseling, et cetera, with all of that.
But walking back inside the church, I hadno idea whether they would accept me.
I had no idea how people were, differentindividuals were gonna respond to me.
(09:55):
And at that point,
I was like, can I really do this?
But then love and their care and theircommunity was just breathtaking and really
showed me God's love in a new way.
That wasn't easy.
I mean, there were times where God wouldsay to me, keep on sharing.
And I would say, I can't, nobody else isdoing it at this level.
(10:16):
And he said to me, I want you to stay asvulnerable as you are right now.
And that took me on a journey of learningmore about authenticity and why we're not
truly
honest and open and real with each otherin church.
So I went on a journey with that and endedup writing a book about all those reasons
why we hide from one another.
But it's been a beautiful journey,difficult, but I mean, just a few months
(10:39):
ago, that same church, Steve Now Pastors,and we've just, yeah, a few months ago
celebrated our 20th anniversary as achurch.
And so it is really lovely to see how Godhas transformed all of that as well.
And we've learned as a community what itmeans to be really authentic with one
another.
That's really obviously why we called itgrace -filled marriage, because every day,
(11:01):
the way we've known God's grace, you know,just his care, his love, the way he can
turn situations that seem such a mess, youknow, a mess of our own making, and yet
use it for his glory and for the benefitof others.
And obviously that's the motivation behindsharing our story, but also just the way
it's
(11:21):
we're seeing it shaped so many otherpeople's lives as well.
Just it's his growth.
Another thing I really appreciate aboutthe book is, yes, you sort of cover
certain principles that are reallyimportant in a marriage, but it's not like
a textbook.
It all comes through story and narrativeand in real life.
(11:43):
So it's almost like a memoir and kind ofthis is what we've learned through life
and this is what we found is important.
So.
Yes, if you're listening to this podcastand you're interested in the book Grace
Filled Marriage, it is a different kind ofbook than you might be expecting on
marriage and I think it's really good.
Speaking of the book, let's just look at acouple of things within it.
(12:08):
So one of the chapters looks at it'scalled Grace Takes Responsibility and it's
the idea...
that of getting married, you do that tofind fulfillment or completeness and you
explain why this is a myth.
What can you tell us about this?
(12:32):
You go first?
Well, I think for me, because I hadn'tdone any marriage prep, and as I said, I
was very young, I had a lot of romanticnotions about what marriage was going to
be like.
And then I woke up very quickly to thereality because I was very much on my own.
But I think I had kind of made a lot ofassumptions about what Steve was going to
(12:57):
do and what my role would have been.
And I think,
I kind of spiraled into disappointmentbecause those expectations weren't met.
And I did wrestle with God about it all,but I think probably what I...
And I did get on and just do things, but Idon't think I fully understood that
(13:17):
absolutely he wasn't there to complete me.
He wasn't there to be the person who wasresponsible for my own walk with God.
That's down to me.
And absolutely, I think sometimes we cango into marriage thinking, well,
everything will be crazy once I've got mylifelong partner.
But actually when you come and liveclosely with each other, obviously we
(13:40):
didn't spend a lot of time together, butwhen we did, we probably saw the worst of
each other because Steve was coming backafter the most ridiculous amount of hours
at work, utterly exhausted.
And I'd been waiting and waiting andwaiting with all these expectations of
what it was going to be like and all thesethings I wanted to do.
And then there'd be, it was just like, itwas an.
argument waiting to happen before he'deven got home.
(14:03):
And so there were all those expectationsthere.
And I've completely lost my thread of whatI was saying.
I was literally just going to say, youknow, so often we have, you mentioned
about these romantic kind of ideals andobviously there is wonderful romance of
beauty in marriage, but the truth is, youknow, we use that phrase so often, you
(14:27):
complete me.
Um, we talk about my other half.
Um, but of course marriage isn't about twohalves becoming whole.
You know, obviously the Bible teaches usthat we're complete in Christ, not in our
partner.
So it's two holes becoming one in flesh.
And that's the difference.
And I think so often when we're looking atto our partner to kind of fill our gaps,
(14:52):
actually we're kind of in one sense, um,is taking the place of what ultimately
God should be in our own lives.
He should be the one who completes us.
We're two whole complete people, but youknow, obviously through marriage we become
one.
We are better together as a team.
So I think however romantic it sounds, youknow, you complete me.
(15:13):
Ultimately, you know, the gospel saysJesus completes us, but he then brings us
together to one.
And I have remembered what I was going tosay.
When you are up close with somebody, whenyou are living with them, you get to see
the best of the person that you love, butyou also get to see the worst.
(15:34):
And you do begin to rub each other up thewrong way.
There'll be certain niggles of theirbehavior and yours.
And actually, what are you going to doabout that?
How do you take responsibility foryourself?
How do you take responsibility for the waythat you might be behaving that there
might not be anything wrong, but it's...
causing upset to your partner or how doyou respond if you're getting upset and
(15:58):
you look at is this really something thatwe need to be arguing about or is this
just something that I need to lay down myopinion about and just get used to?
And so there's all those kinds of thingsthat you need to deal with when you're
living with somebody day by day and sayit's just, it's keeping a check of your
attitudes and your heart because you cango into something, go into marriage,
(16:21):
hopefully full of romantic love.
And sometimes there can be somedisillusionment when reality hits and you
think, and there is that, this is, I'm inthis for the long haul, so what do I need
to do to my heart attitudes?
And how do I prefer my partner?
How do I show love and care in a practicalway?
On a day to day when you're all, you'redoing your own thing, you've both got to
(16:45):
rush out to work or you're looking afterkids or whatever, on the daily grind, how
are you?
responsible for yourself and your actions.
And so often our default is to jump to howdo I change my partner?
You know, how do I make them a lot morecompliant in my way of thinking and my way
of doing things?
And as Claire said, we've got to takeresponsibility.
(17:08):
Actually, ultimately our responsibility isfor our response to these things.
So we can change ourselves and throughthat, hopefully.
Yeah.
And I think I put this in the bookactually, my mum once said to me, because
she was a Christian, she's passed awaynow, but she was a Christian, my dad
wasn't and still isn't.
And it caused quite a lot of tension attimes.
(17:28):
And so she used to pray to God, pleasechange him because he used to be quite
angry about the fact that she was aChristian.
And then God turned around to her one dayand said, no need to need to be praying
that I change your heart.
And when she said that to me, I was like,I don't like that very much, but it's so
true.
Yeah, leading on from that really.
Um, there's another chapter that I thinkis really important.
(17:51):
I mean, they're all important, but what Ipicked up on this one, um, grace is dying
to self and it kind of follows on fromthat thought that you've just mentioned to
us there.
So how can selfishness damagerelationships and how can dying to self
help us?
Well, I think again, our natural defaultis to look to a relationship.
(18:16):
for what we can get out of it.
And so often in culture, you know, in theworld around us, it's like the moment I
stop getting out of this relationship,what I need, what I want, then I'm out of
here.
So it's all about my needs and my wants.
And I think the whole beauty of marriageis that sacrificial love, the giving of
oneself to another.
(18:37):
Ultimately, we believe marriage is abeautiful reflection of Christ and his
church.
And you know, like, come on, husbands loveyour wives as Christ loved the churches.
It's that mutual submission and surrenderto one another, giving ourselves to one
another that is so counter -cultural, soagainst our own nature, but ultimately we
(18:58):
do it in the grace of God.
And that transforms, you know, even themost mundane situations when we model
that.
Yeah.
I mean, if you truly believe that yourmarriage is a mission field, that actually
you are on mission together, that God hasbrought you together, there will be times
where...
And you might want to do something.
And actually you have to ask yourself, amI doing this from selfish ambition?
(19:22):
Is this building us and what we feel God'scalled us to do?
Is this maybe a part of that that God hasasked me specifically to do?
And then maybe you could be praying andsupporting one another, but it might just
be that actually this is just somethingthat I would like to run after.
And you have to lay that down.
I think learning to prefer the other.
(19:44):
Um, is a shift of mindset, as Steve said,our culture, we are fed constantly to be
about ourselves.
It's all eye centric.
And so it is very counter -cultural tothink in this way, but I think that's you
end up the beauty of is it the more thatyou lay down your life and give to the
other, um, more you flourish and feelfulfilled.
(20:05):
It's changing that narrative to, uh, I'mnot flourishing here to how can I make my
partner flourish?
I think it's just shifting that mindsetand it's a lifelong lesson and, you know,
we'll put our hands up when we're stilllearning this.
We are rubbish at this so many times, butit's just that, that shift in mindset,
that different narrative, internalnarrative.
How can I make my partner truly flourish?
(20:28):
And for me, the whole thing about marriageand God and Christian books about marriage
and all this kind of thing is that thewhole thing that marriage is God's idea.
Yeah.
And actually.
If we want to get it right, we need tofollow what the creator of marriage says
(20:50):
about it.
And so even if it flies in the face ofwhat culture is telling us, it might seem
weird or difficult or whatever, butactually by doing what God says about it,
because he designed it and he created it,he knows how it's supposed to work.
So by following what...
(21:10):
God's saying about marriage is surely thebest way to go.
Just before we head to the break, I've gota couple of questions for you, almost
like, I don't know, top tips, really toptips.
So let's imagine that you're speaking tosome of our listeners today who are
(21:32):
couples who are just about to get married.
What's a marriage top tip you can give tothem?
And I'd say straight off, um, if they knowof any marriage preparation course going
in the area, please do sign up for it.
It's just really helps that conversation.
(21:53):
Those early conversations about, uh, youknow, baggage that you're bringing into
that relationship, sorting it outbeforehand.
All that we've all got baggage.
We've all got, you know, different, um,expectations.
And the other thing I'd say is also juststart talking about the vision you have
for your life together.
Um, just making sure that you guys are onthe same page.
(22:14):
I would say don't stay in a romanticbubble, um, cultivate friendships with
people that you trust.
Maybe people slightly further down theline than you that you can be open and
honest with and who will support you inprayer, but also practical wisdom as well.
Cause we can start off thinking ourpartner's absolutely perfect.
And then, as I said, the reality hits, youneed people that can speak in positively,
(22:37):
can speak in encouragement, but also.
help you, that people that you feel safeto talk to when there's inevitable times
where things aren't quite so easy.
We are part of God's church.
We are community because we need oneanother's support and not to be scared of
cultivating close friendships as a couple.
And to commit themselves to pray for youas well.
(22:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
How about some top tips for any listenerswho might be many years into their
marriage already.
They've been married for a while.
And what advice would you give to them?
Again, straight from the off, I'd justsay, be very, very aware of complacency
settling in.
(23:20):
It's very, very easy for, yeah, just toget in the daily grind of life, just to
allow complacency for one another to creepin.
So be on the alert for that.
I always say, it doesn't matter how manyyears we've been married, we can always.
work at our marriage and there's alwaysmore that we can do.
(23:42):
Every time we do marriage prep or we dothese marriage MOTs with couples like six
months down the line after they've gotmarried and suggest they do it each year.
Just have a series of questions you canask yourselves.
Are we still on the same page?
Are we still pursuing one another and Godin the same way we were a year ago?
What's our vision for the next five years?
(24:02):
All those kinds of things as well.
Yeah.
Make sure you're still having funtogether.
Yeah, absolutely.
And just think, are we still walking sideby side or has life got so busy that we're
kind of veering off into our ownindividual lives and find ways to bring
yourselves back together.
Giving yourself time and the permission toask those deeper questions.
(24:25):
Really helpful.
Thank you.
And finally, the last top tip is for anyof our listeners who might have
experienced a breakdown.
in their relationship or marriage.
It might be really tough at the minute, ormaybe they've already gone through a
divorce or something like that.
What advice can you give them?
(24:46):
If their marriage is completely brokendown and they're divorced, the first thing
I want to say is there is no condemnationin Christ.
And he is the one, as Steve's alreadysaid, who completes us.
And so I don't want you to hear what we'renot saying, that if your marriage is
broken down, you're a failure.
We've been through that.
God in his grace has restored it, but itcould so easily have gone a different way.
(25:10):
And we have close friends and family thathas done.
And so I want to say that from the off.
But I would always say we had to get tothe place separately that we were willing
to work hard at this and we're willing to,first of all, almost a hundred percent
give ourselves in submission to Christ.
And so you need to do that for yourself.
(25:34):
You can't obviously make your partner dothat, but get yourself, it's about being
humble before God, isn't it?
So make sure you are right with God.
And then Steve can tell from hisexperience, he was in that place where he
was ready to fight for our marriagestraight away.
I was carrying a lot of pain and wasn'tright there at that point, but God told
(25:55):
you just to stand firm and keep praying.
Yeah.
I mean, it's an excruciatingly painfullylong time.
Um, when Claire was down with her parents,as Claire said, I wanted to kind of speed
things up.
Let's go for it.
Let's work at it.
Let's put the foundations into place.
But I had to learn actually to give Clairethe space and the time she needed without
(26:16):
the pressure.
Um, just her and God work through itherself.
Um, before we could even begin that senseof counseling and reconciliation,
forgiveness paid, you know, obviouslyplays a massive part in that journey.
But certainly it was that sense of givingher the space that she needed.
It obviously takes two to make a marriagework.
And actually on the back of that,something I would like to say is as
(26:38):
Christians, we can be far too quick topush people back together.
Oh, you've had problems, you need to betogether because God has brought you
together.
And yes, that is true, but actually theremay well need to be time and space that
they need to work on things separatelyfirst.
And I had so many people say to me, youjust need to come back to Steve.
And the person that I was willing to talkto and who we got counsel with
(27:01):
individually and together was the personwho acknowledged where I was at and just
said, you are carrying so much pain and somuch hurt.
You need to work through that before God,before you can even consider whether there
was a future in your marriage.
So I think it's really important that weare honest with where people are at and
give them that time and space and supportwhen needed.
(27:22):
That's so good.
That's so good.
Thank you so much for all that really.
helpful advice.
Don't forget you can pick up your own copyof Grace Filled Marriage by Claire and
Steve Musters and wherever you get yourChristian books from.
We will be back to chat with Steve andClaire just after these, so join us in a
few minutes.
(27:46):
based in the beautiful village of GreatMissenden, the birthplace of St Andrew's
Bookshop.
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(28:09):
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(28:34):
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books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to Christian BookBlurb and I'm chatting with Claire and
Steve Musters about their book GraceFilled Marriage and we were chatting a lot
about that before the break.
But what we like to do after the break,Claire and Steve, is to get to know the
authors a little bit better.
(29:19):
Now let's be honest, you have been puttingyour hearts on your sleeve for us already,
which is fantastic, but it's mostly beenin the context of your relationship and
marriage.
which is what the book's about.
So, you know, that's what we've beenfocusing on.
But what about other things?
And, you know, what do you do for fun?
(29:40):
What do we do for fun?
What's fun, they say.
Because we kind of lead a church.
It's so busy, but it is also so importantto make time to have fun.
We love getting out into the country.
We love just...
Although we live in Southern, it's kindof, it's, you know, it's a London borough,
(30:01):
but at least the Surrey Hills are justdown the road.
We can get in the car and go out in thecountry.
I find that does myself, my own sense ofwellbeing, a world of good.
Just love being with the family.
We've got two kids.
I say kids, one's 18, one's 15.
Growing up fast.
Love going to the theater.
Love music.
(30:21):
My background was music.
So grateful both our kids are musical.
and Claire's very musical.
So, um, yeah, so I was, yes, it is nicethat we are near enough that we can go to
London theaters as well.
So we've been trying to do more of that.
Yeah.
And, and galleries, art galleries.
Um, I mean, Steve's right.
We are.
So a lot of my time that's taken upoutside of my work, um, Steve's obviously
(30:46):
pastor, so Chep stuff is his job, but it'snot my paid, um, employment, but I head up
our worship team.
So I am quite heavily involved in themusic side of things.
And while that is, I mean, it's a role Ido, but it's also in love I have.
So I've spent quite a lot of time doingthat as well.
So as worship pastor then, what song atthe moment is particularly capturing the
(31:11):
hearts of your congregation?
Oh, wow.
Unexpected question.
What was the song that we did yesterday?
Promises.
Promises, yeah.
It's talking about God's faithfulness.
Yeah.
Right with your faithfulness to me.
Yeah.
I would say that probably.
And Holy Forever was the one that's beenreally touching people.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
(31:32):
And do you guys sort of downtime?
Are you TV watchers or most authors say,I'm an author, so I love reading books.
Do you read loads of books or, you know,how do you, you know, relax?
I do read a lot of books, but again,that's for work because I run the Women
Alive Book Club.
So I am doing a lot of that for thatpurposes.
(31:55):
And I also write a children's book columnfor the trade magazine together.
So I'm doing a lot of that.
So I do love reading books for pleasure,but I very, very rarely get to do that
because I have a huge to read pile forwork.
I'm quite similar with my podcast.
I've got a massive pile to read for that.
But yeah.
(32:15):
Yeah.
Sorry, Karen.
Our kids love watching TV with us.
And I think that's one thing that came outof lockdown when you're kind of thrust
together and not a lot else you could do.
They've started getting into things likeBake Off.
Our son really likes Dragon's Den.
So we've been watching through some oldepisodes.
Dragon's Den, very good.
Yeah.
There's some things, it's quite a nicefamily thing that we do together.
(32:37):
I think he's a funding entrepreneur.
My children are much younger than yours.
I'm all sort of primary school age and...
the new series of gladiators that's justcome on TV.
Oh, they absolutely love gladiators.
Goodness.
We haven't gone there yet because weremember the first one.
We're like, oh, we weren't, I wasn'tparticularly fond the first time.
I've got so many friends who keep sayingto them, you need to watch it.
(32:59):
I'm holding off.
Yeah.
Resisting.
Oh, wonderful.
Have you got anything coming up soon?
I know.
Claire, you've written several books.
Steve, is this your one and only forayinto writing or have you got something
else you're thinking of?
You know, I never say never, but no, I waskind of dragged kicking and screaming to
(33:22):
write this one and Fray's got our marriageheld up through it.
That was another challenge, another test.
We have very different approaches toorganization, namely Claire is organized
and I'm not.
So yeah, she was incredibly gracious inwaiting for me to actually say your short
answer is no.
(33:44):
Never say never.
He writes 2500 words every week, everytime he preaches.
So he is, well, they only said that that'squite funny as well because he chose his A
levels that anything that wasn't essaybased and now is having to write.
I do a lot of writing.
And I used to edit them when he firststarted and he's absolutely brilliant.
(34:05):
You don't need anything like that now.
So actually he could very easily writemore.
So who knows?
I have got a book just about, shouldprobably be out by the time this airs.
I've been working with Care for the Familyon a bereavement guide actually called The
Grief Journey.
So it's quite short book and it's reallyto come alongside people in those first
(34:28):
few months.
after losing someone, said that.
And I've started working on a new book onlament, which I don't know quite how long
that's going to take me.
It's been on my heart for quite a fewyears because it's been quite a painful
journey over the last few years.
And it has made me start thinking muchmore about it.
And I've recently said to my publisher, itfeels like it's time.
(34:50):
So I'm at the very beginning of thatprocess.
Oh, good.
Lots of things to look forward to.
That's wonderful.
Now, where can people buy this book or anyof your other books, Claire?
And indeed, have you got websites andthings we can point people towards and
social media so they can find you and allthat kind of thing?
Yes.
I just went into chat.
(35:11):
I've not done it very well because all ofthem are different, which is really
unhelpful.
I can't just say everything, which is, butmy web page is ClaireMusters .com.
So Claire has got an I and an E in it.
And that has got our marriage book on it.
and taking off the mask.
And a lot of my other books I did throughWaverley Abbey So they used to be CWR.
(35:33):
So they stock those.
But yes, I'm on Facebook as Claire Musterswriter.
I'm on Instagram as Claire Musters and onTwitter as Sue Musters Twitter.
Now I still call it Twitter.
I can't get my head around X.
So yes, if you want to find out a bit moreabout Steve, you kind of have to do it
through me because he stays off of socialmedia apart from through church.
(35:56):
Well, that's great.
I imagine your other social medias andthings you can get to from your website.
Yes.
So what we'll do for the benefit of ourlisteners is we'll put a link to your
website in this episode's show notes.
And then if people want to get in touch orfollow you or find a book, whatever, they
can click on that and it'll take themwherever they want to go.
(36:18):
That's great.
Thank you very much.
Well, thank you so much for sharing yourlife with us.
It's been...
It's been a privilege, thank you.
And if you've been listening to this andyou would like to know more, I mean,
there's so much more good stuff in thebook that Claire and Steve have written
and called Grace Filled Marriage.
Do go and get yourself a copy.
(36:38):
And I've been fortunate enough to be givena copy to help me prepare for this
podcast.
And what I'll be doing, like I do with alot of the books I have, is I give them
away.
So if you are wanting to win a copy ofGraceful Marriage in my monthly giveaway,
please do tune in.
(36:59):
I don't think you can tune into anewsletter, sign up for my newsletter,
which you can find over on my website,matmclerry .com.
And once a month, there's a wonderful bookgiveaway in there that you can enter.
And Graceful Marriage is going to becoming up in a few months time.
So do keep a lookout for that.
A big thank you to Claire and Steve forjoining me today.
(37:22):
It's been wonderful having you on theshow.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
It's been great to chat to you.
Well, another really big thank you goesout to the St Andrews Literature Festival,
who has sponsored today's episode.
Thanks for your support, guys.
Thank you so much.
And don't forget that this is an inauguralChristian Literature Festival that is
(37:43):
starting in Great Missenden here in the UKon the 21st and the 22nd of June.
So pop over to their website, stalitfest.co .uk to grab your tickets and to find
out more.
I'm going to be popping over on theSaturday, so you never know, we might bump
into each other if you come along.
So grab your tickets now, stalitfest .co.uk and I look forward to seeing you
(38:06):
there.
And thank you as well for listening tothis episode of Christian Book Burb.
Don't forget we come out twice a month onthe 1st and the 15th.
So do join me again really soon foranother edition of Christian Book Blurb.
Goodbye and see you soon.
Thanks for listening to Christian BookBlurb with your host Matt McChlery.
(38:28):
Do give it a like, give it a share and letyour friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon onanother Christian Book Blurb.
This is Christian Book Blurb brought toyou by author and songwriter Matt McChlery
Get a behind the scenes glimpse into thelives of some of your favourite Christian
authors, hear about their books and faith.
Also, why not check out my website,mattmcleary .com.
This episode is sponsored by St AndrewsLiterature Festival, which is a Christian
(00:22):
literature festival being held in GreatMissenden here in the UK on the 21st and
the 22nd of June.
Find out more and get your tickets nowfrom www .staLitFest .co .uk Well hello
and welcome to The Christian Book Blurb,the podcast that likes to encourage you in
your discipleship one book at a time as wemeet some amazing Christian authors and
(00:47):
learn about their books, their lives andtheir faith.
Well I'm your host Matt McChlery, thanksfor joining me today, welcome aboard, and
on today's show I'm going to be talkingabout
How to Build a Healthy Marriage with theauthors Claire and Steve Musters Well, hi
Claire and Steve, welcome to the show.
Hello, thanks for having us.
(01:08):
Hi.
It's really good to have you both with ustoday.
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
I must say that this is the first timeI've had a husband and wife team who've
written a book together that I'veinterviewed on the podcast.
That's really exciting.
Well, I hope that goes well then.
Yeah, so do I.
Um, so first of all, we're talking aboutmarriage and you're a husband and wife
(01:32):
team.
So I guess the most obvious question toask first is how long have you been
married?
Well, we've been married 30 years.
Um, and, uh, that was last year, wasn'tit?
We celebrated our 30th anniversary.
Um, and, uh, we met as teenagers, so we'veknown each other for a very, very long
(01:54):
time.
not going to tell you quite how.
The title of the episode mentions buildinga marriage, which implies effort and hard
work.
So, um, in your 30 years of experience,has your marriage required hard work or
has it been fairly easy and plain sailing?
(02:14):
Yes.
Well, I think that's why we ended upwriting a book because it was very
difficult.
And, and yes, you're...
Your title is talking about building ahealthy marriage.
And I think for us, we didn't really getthe chance to build healthy foundations,
which is why we ran into difficultiesfairly early on.
(02:36):
Yeah.
I mean, basically, although we knew eachother for a very long time before getting
married, when we finally did take theplunge, my work situation meant that I
just wasn't around.
I was in the music industry, I was workingseven days a week, very, very, very little
(02:57):
time off.
And so we went straight into married life,almost with Claire as basically in effect
being single.
So I can remember my mum sitting me downand saying, do you really want to do this?
And she absolutely adored Steve.
She said that it was like the son thatshe'd never had.
(03:18):
But
could already see that it was a realstrain once Steve started working in the
studio.
And I said, well, I fell in love with himyears ago, it's a bit late for that.
But we didn't do things like marriage prepbecause I said, I'm not going to go to
that by myself, I would feel reallyawkward.
And so yes, we went into marriage havingbeen best friends for years, but not
(03:40):
having done that hard work of what happenswhen the rubber hits the road.
And so when it did,
Um, it was really tricky and we had adecade of struggle where, um, I would say
probably a couple of times a year, I can'tkeep doing this.
Um, and yet somehow we couldn't see it anyother way forward.
And so we just kind of knuckled down andcarried on it until I just couldn't do it
(04:03):
anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And for me, I suppose it was just thatsense of burying your head in the sand.
Um, thinking we will get through thissomehow.
It will be okay.
There will be a better day.
without actively doing anything about it.
So there was a lot of complacency, a lotof unrealistic expectations as well.
(04:23):
We were very young when we got married.
You'd just turned 20, hadn't you?
And I wasn't that much older.
So there was, yeah, unrealisticexpectations leading to unmet
expectations, leading to disappointment,frustration, and all the other things for,
actually became a very unhealthy mix.
(04:44):
Yeah.
And I think -
we'd got married so young, we were theonly people in our friendship group that
were married.
And so we used to look at all of themarried couples at church and think that
they had everything together.
And in the times when I did say to Steve,we need to talk to somebody about it, he
didn't really want to because he's quite aprivate person.
Very ironic now that he's written a bookabout all of this.
(05:05):
But I quickly shut that idea down.
I didn't really want to go to people thatwe didn't know that well and admit that we
were really, really struggling.
And so that went on for a decade until itcame to a crunch point.
And we ended up separating at just set atime where we were beginning to help start
a new church.
(05:26):
So there are huge, big reasons and it wasall very difficult.
And I did actually leave with somebodyelse who was part of that church plant.
And fortunately God,
dealt with that within a couple of weeks,which I say fortunately now it was
incredibly painful.
But Steve was the first person that Icalled once he had left, which was quite
(05:48):
telling.
I think I'd already realized within thosefirst couple of weeks that I really missed
Steve.
But of course there was a lot of pain andhurt and we couldn't just jump straight
back in.
So Steve actually moved me down to myparents.
So I was nearing my 30th birthday andthought I'd lost everything.
I just
I was a book editor and I just startedwriting Christian books and I thought,
(06:12):
well, I can't do that anymore.
I'm a complete hypocrite and all of thatstuff.
So I've lost my husband, my home, my work,my church.
So they're never going to let me back inthere.
So I felt my whole world was in tatters.
And that's at that point, God just reallymet me and affirmed me and just poured his
love out on me and was doing a work inSteve at the same time, which he can talk
(06:34):
about.
But it was from that point where I feltGod's unconditional love.
And I then had to work through all her andall the issues for us then to think, are
we at a place where we feel like we canrebuild?
And it was at that point that the hardwork of building some, some healthy
foundations started.
Foundations that should have been in thereright at the very beginning.
(06:54):
Yeah.
Oh, thank you for sharing that part ofyour story with us.
And I just want to say for the benefit ofour listeners that you can read a whole
lot more.
about the story that that Steve and Clairehave just been starting to share in their
book called Grace -Filled MarriageStrengthened and Transformed Through God's
(07:14):
Redemptive Love.
And I just wanted to say, having read thebook, that I really appreciate the fact
that you don't often get Christian bookson marriage where they talk about the hard
stuff and like the authors have actuallylived through it.
It's usually, oh, look at this pictureperfect kind of marriage.
(07:37):
Here it is.
This is what you need to do to keep it.
But you really, yeah, no holes barredreally.
You tell it like it is.
It's one of the reasons why we wanted towrite it because in our experience, you
know, when we were looking around forbooks, I mean, there are some great books
on marriage out there, but as you say, alot of them were just like this ideal that
(08:00):
seemed incredibly, um,
of almost like a fantasy, will we ever getto that point?
And I think one of the reasons, as I said,we wrote that book was to actually give an
honest, personal, I suppose, account thatyes, marriage is absolutely beautiful.
It is the most wonderful God -given gift,but it is really hard work.
(08:24):
And we do face challenges in life and weneed to be incredibly honest and open
about them.
I wasn't at the time, which
Obviously, as Claire said, led to a wholeload of difficulties.
But I think if we can be transparent, ifwe can be honest, if we can talk about our
challenges in our relationships, then thatgoes a huge long way to being strengthened
(08:47):
and being equipped.
And I don't, I mean, as you all know, thebook's not just our story.
That's kind of like the starting point.
And we've invited other contributors inbecause we know this is a very specific
story.
And, but there are also,
general principles in there that we thinkare really relevant for any marriage, but
we also ask people that living withchronic illnesses, living with a mental
(09:10):
health illness, all sorts of differentcoming together from two different
cultures.
There's all sorts of different things.
So hopefully a personal story will alsoresonate with readers as well.
I'd written this story from my side at thebeginning of a different book called
Taking Off the Mask, which
It was at the point where I walked backinto church after we decided that we were
(09:33):
gonna make a go of things.
And probably because Steve had been thefirst person I'd called, I'd got that over
with pretty quickly.
And I knew that he was still there for me.
But we obviously had to journey and havecounseling, et cetera, with all of that.
But walking back inside the church, I hadno idea whether they would accept me.
I had no idea how people were, differentindividuals were gonna respond to me.
(09:55):
And at that point,
I was like, can I really do this?
But then love and their care and theircommunity was just breathtaking and really
showed me God's love in a new way.
That wasn't easy.
I mean, there were times where God wouldsay to me, keep on sharing.
And I would say, I can't, nobody else isdoing it at this level.
(10:16):
And he said to me, I want you to stay asvulnerable as you are right now.
And that took me on a journey of learningmore about authenticity and why we're not
truly
honest and open and real with each otherin church.
So I went on a journey with that and endedup writing a book about all those reasons
why we hide from one another.
But it's been a beautiful journey,difficult, but I mean, just a few months
(10:39):
ago, that same church, Steve Now Pastors,and we've just, yeah, a few months ago
celebrated our 20th anniversary as achurch.
And so it is really lovely to see how Godhas transformed all of that as well.
And we've learned as a community what itmeans to be really authentic with one
another.
That's really obviously why we called itgrace -filled marriage, because every day,
(11:01):
the way we've known God's grace, you know,just his care, his love, the way he can
turn situations that seem such a mess, youknow, a mess of our own making, and yet
use it for his glory and for the benefitof others.
And obviously that's the motivation behindsharing our story, but also just the way
it's
(11:21):
we're seeing it shaped so many otherpeople's lives as well.
Just it's his growth.
Another thing I really appreciate aboutthe book is, yes, you sort of cover
certain principles that are reallyimportant in a marriage, but it's not like
a textbook.
It all comes through story and narrativeand in real life.
(11:43):
So it's almost like a memoir and kind ofthis is what we've learned through life
and this is what we found is important.
So.
Yes, if you're listening to this podcastand you're interested in the book Grace
Filled Marriage, it is a different kind ofbook than you might be expecting on
marriage and I think it's really good.
Speaking of the book, let's just look at acouple of things within it.
(12:08):
So one of the chapters looks at it'scalled Grace Takes Responsibility and it's
the idea...
that of getting married, you do that tofind fulfillment or completeness and you
explain why this is a myth.
What can you tell us about this?
(12:32):
You go first?
Well, I think for me, because I hadn'tdone any marriage prep, and as I said, I
was very young, I had a lot of romanticnotions about what marriage was going to
be like.
And then I woke up very quickly to thereality because I was very much on my own.
But I think I had kind of made a lot ofassumptions about what Steve was going to
(12:57):
do and what my role would have been.
And I think,
I kind of spiraled into disappointmentbecause those expectations weren't met.
And I did wrestle with God about it all,but I think probably what I...
And I did get on and just do things, but Idon't think I fully understood that
(13:17):
absolutely he wasn't there to complete me.
He wasn't there to be the person who wasresponsible for my own walk with God.
That's down to me.
And absolutely, I think sometimes we cango into marriage thinking, well,
everything will be crazy once I've got mylifelong partner.
But actually when you come and liveclosely with each other, obviously we
(13:40):
didn't spend a lot of time together, butwhen we did, we probably saw the worst of
each other because Steve was coming backafter the most ridiculous amount of hours
at work, utterly exhausted.
And I'd been waiting and waiting andwaiting with all these expectations of
what it was going to be like and all thesethings I wanted to do.
And then there'd be, it was just like, itwas an.
argument waiting to happen before he'deven got home.
(14:03):
And so there were all those expectationsthere.
And I've completely lost my thread of whatI was saying.
I was literally just going to say, youknow, so often we have, you mentioned
about these romantic kind of ideals andobviously there is wonderful romance of
beauty in marriage, but the truth is, youknow, we use that phrase so often, you
(14:27):
complete me.
Um, we talk about my other half.
Um, but of course marriage isn't about twohalves becoming whole.
You know, obviously the Bible teaches usthat we're complete in Christ, not in our
partner.
So it's two holes becoming one in flesh.
And that's the difference.
And I think so often when we're looking atto our partner to kind of fill our gaps,
(14:52):
actually we're kind of in one sense, um,is taking the place of what ultimately
God should be in our own lives.
He should be the one who completes us.
We're two whole complete people, but youknow, obviously through marriage we become
one.
We are better together as a team.
So I think however romantic it sounds, youknow, you complete me.
(15:13):
Ultimately, you know, the gospel saysJesus completes us, but he then brings us
together to one.
And I have remembered what I was going tosay.
When you are up close with somebody, whenyou are living with them, you get to see
the best of the person that you love, butyou also get to see the worst.
(15:34):
And you do begin to rub each other up thewrong way.
There'll be certain niggles of theirbehavior and yours.
And actually, what are you going to doabout that?
How do you take responsibility foryourself?
How do you take responsibility for the waythat you might be behaving that there
might not be anything wrong, but it's...
causing upset to your partner or how doyou respond if you're getting upset and
(15:58):
you look at is this really something thatwe need to be arguing about or is this
just something that I need to lay down myopinion about and just get used to?
And so there's all those kinds of thingsthat you need to deal with when you're
living with somebody day by day and sayit's just, it's keeping a check of your
attitudes and your heart because you cango into something, go into marriage,
(16:21):
hopefully full of romantic love.
And sometimes there can be somedisillusionment when reality hits and you
think, and there is that, this is, I'm inthis for the long haul, so what do I need
to do to my heart attitudes?
And how do I prefer my partner?
How do I show love and care in a practicalway?
On a day to day when you're all, you'redoing your own thing, you've both got to
(16:45):
rush out to work or you're looking afterkids or whatever, on the daily grind, how
are you?
responsible for yourself and your actions.
And so often our default is to jump to howdo I change my partner?
You know, how do I make them a lot morecompliant in my way of thinking and my way
of doing things?
And as Claire said, we've got to takeresponsibility.
(17:08):
Actually, ultimately our responsibility isfor our response to these things.
So we can change ourselves and throughthat, hopefully.
Yeah.
And I think I put this in the bookactually, my mum once said to me, because
she was a Christian, she's passed awaynow, but she was a Christian, my dad
wasn't and still isn't.
And it caused quite a lot of tension attimes.
(17:28):
And so she used to pray to God, pleasechange him because he used to be quite
angry about the fact that she was aChristian.
And then God turned around to her one dayand said, no need to need to be praying
that I change your heart.
And when she said that to me, I was like,I don't like that very much, but it's so
true.
Yeah, leading on from that really.
Um, there's another chapter that I thinkis really important.
(17:51):
I mean, they're all important, but what Ipicked up on this one, um, grace is dying
to self and it kind of follows on fromthat thought that you've just mentioned to
us there.
So how can selfishness damagerelationships and how can dying to self
help us?
Well, I think again, our natural defaultis to look to a relationship.
(18:16):
for what we can get out of it.
And so often in culture, you know, in theworld around us, it's like the moment I
stop getting out of this relationship,what I need, what I want, then I'm out of
here.
So it's all about my needs and my wants.
And I think the whole beauty of marriageis that sacrificial love, the giving of
oneself to another.
(18:37):
Ultimately, we believe marriage is abeautiful reflection of Christ and his
church.
And you know, like, come on, husbands loveyour wives as Christ loved the churches.
It's that mutual submission and surrenderto one another, giving ourselves to one
another that is so counter -cultural, soagainst our own nature, but ultimately we
(18:58):
do it in the grace of God.
And that transforms, you know, even themost mundane situations when we model
that.
Yeah.
I mean, if you truly believe that yourmarriage is a mission field, that actually
you are on mission together, that God hasbrought you together, there will be times
where...
And you might want to do something.
And actually you have to ask yourself, amI doing this from selfish ambition?
(19:22):
Is this building us and what we feel God'scalled us to do?
Is this maybe a part of that that God hasasked me specifically to do?
And then maybe you could be praying andsupporting one another, but it might just
be that actually this is just somethingthat I would like to run after.
And you have to lay that down.
I think learning to prefer the other.
(19:44):
Um, is a shift of mindset, as Steve said,our culture, we are fed constantly to be
about ourselves.
It's all eye centric.
And so it is very counter -cultural tothink in this way, but I think that's you
end up the beauty of is it the more thatyou lay down your life and give to the
other, um, more you flourish and feelfulfilled.
(20:05):
It's changing that narrative to, uh, I'mnot flourishing here to how can I make my
partner flourish?
I think it's just shifting that mindsetand it's a lifelong lesson and, you know,
we'll put our hands up when we're stilllearning this.
We are rubbish at this so many times, butit's just that, that shift in mindset,
that different narrative, internalnarrative.
How can I make my partner truly flourish?
(20:28):
And for me, the whole thing about marriageand God and Christian books about marriage
and all this kind of thing is that thewhole thing that marriage is God's idea.
Yeah.
And actually.
If we want to get it right, we need tofollow what the creator of marriage says
(20:50):
about it.
And so even if it flies in the face ofwhat culture is telling us, it might seem
weird or difficult or whatever, butactually by doing what God says about it,
because he designed it and he created it,he knows how it's supposed to work.
So by following what...
(21:10):
God's saying about marriage is surely thebest way to go.
Just before we head to the break, I've gota couple of questions for you, almost
like, I don't know, top tips, really toptips.
So let's imagine that you're speaking tosome of our listeners today who are
(21:32):
couples who are just about to get married.
What's a marriage top tip you can give tothem?
And I'd say straight off, um, if they knowof any marriage preparation course going
in the area, please do sign up for it.
It's just really helps that conversation.
(21:53):
Those early conversations about, uh, youknow, baggage that you're bringing into
that relationship, sorting it outbeforehand.
All that we've all got baggage.
We've all got, you know, different, um,expectations.
And the other thing I'd say is also juststart talking about the vision you have
for your life together.
Um, just making sure that you guys are onthe same page.
(22:14):
I would say don't stay in a romanticbubble, um, cultivate friendships with
people that you trust.
Maybe people slightly further down theline than you that you can be open and
honest with and who will support you inprayer, but also practical wisdom as well.
Cause we can start off thinking ourpartner's absolutely perfect.
And then, as I said, the reality hits, youneed people that can speak in positively,
(22:37):
can speak in encouragement, but also.
help you, that people that you feel safeto talk to when there's inevitable times
where things aren't quite so easy.
We are part of God's church.
We are community because we need oneanother's support and not to be scared of
cultivating close friendships as a couple.
And to commit themselves to pray for youas well.
(22:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really good.
How about some top tips for any listenerswho might be many years into their
marriage already.
They've been married for a while.
And what advice would you give to them?
Again, straight from the off, I'd justsay, be very, very aware of complacency
settling in.
(23:20):
It's very, very easy for, yeah, just toget in the daily grind of life, just to
allow complacency for one another to creepin.
So be on the alert for that.
I always say, it doesn't matter how manyyears we've been married, we can always.
work at our marriage and there's alwaysmore that we can do.
(23:42):
Every time we do marriage prep or we dothese marriage MOTs with couples like six
months down the line after they've gotmarried and suggest they do it each year.
Just have a series of questions you canask yourselves.
Are we still on the same page?
Are we still pursuing one another and Godin the same way we were a year ago?
What's our vision for the next five years?
(24:02):
All those kinds of things as well.
Yeah.
Make sure you're still having funtogether.
Yeah, absolutely.
And just think, are we still walking sideby side or has life got so busy that we're
kind of veering off into our ownindividual lives and find ways to bring
yourselves back together.
Giving yourself time and the permission toask those deeper questions.
(24:25):
Really helpful.
Thank you.
And finally, the last top tip is for anyof our listeners who might have
experienced a breakdown.
in their relationship or marriage.
It might be really tough at the minute, ormaybe they've already gone through a
divorce or something like that.
What advice can you give them?
(24:46):
If their marriage is completely brokendown and they're divorced, the first thing
I want to say is there is no condemnationin Christ.
And he is the one, as Steve's alreadysaid, who completes us.
And so I don't want you to hear what we'renot saying, that if your marriage is
broken down, you're a failure.
We've been through that.
God in his grace has restored it, but itcould so easily have gone a different way.
(25:10):
And we have close friends and family thathas done.
And so I want to say that from the off.
But I would always say we had to get tothe place separately that we were willing
to work hard at this and we're willing to,first of all, almost a hundred percent
give ourselves in submission to Christ.
And so you need to do that for yourself.
(25:34):
You can't obviously make your partner dothat, but get yourself, it's about being
humble before God, isn't it?
So make sure you are right with God.
And then Steve can tell from hisexperience, he was in that place where he
was ready to fight for our marriagestraight away.
I was carrying a lot of pain and wasn'tright there at that point, but God told
(25:55):
you just to stand firm and keep praying.
Yeah.
I mean, it's an excruciatingly painfullylong time.
Um, when Claire was down with her parents,as Claire said, I wanted to kind of speed
things up.
Let's go for it.
Let's work at it.
Let's put the foundations into place.
But I had to learn actually to give Clairethe space and the time she needed without
(26:16):
the pressure.
Um, just her and God work through itherself.
Um, before we could even begin that senseof counseling and reconciliation,
forgiveness paid, you know, obviouslyplays a massive part in that journey.
But certainly it was that sense of givingher the space that she needed.
It obviously takes two to make a marriagework.
And actually on the back of that,something I would like to say is as
(26:38):
Christians, we can be far too quick topush people back together.
Oh, you've had problems, you need to betogether because God has brought you
together.
And yes, that is true, but actually theremay well need to be time and space that
they need to work on things separatelyfirst.
And I had so many people say to me, youjust need to come back to Steve.
And the person that I was willing to talkto and who we got counsel with
(27:01):
individually and together was the personwho acknowledged where I was at and just
said, you are carrying so much pain and somuch hurt.
You need to work through that before God,before you can even consider whether there
was a future in your marriage.
So I think it's really important that weare honest with where people are at and
give them that time and space and supportwhen needed.
(27:22):
That's so good.
That's so good.
Thank you so much for all that really.
helpful advice.
Don't forget you can pick up your own copyof Grace Filled Marriage by Claire and
Steve Musters and wherever you get yourChristian books from.
We will be back to chat with Steve andClaire just after these, so join us in a
few minutes.
(27:46):
based in the beautiful village of GreatMissenden, the birthplace of St Andrew's
Bookshop.
The St Andrew's Christian LiteratureFestival is happening for the first time
on Friday the 21st and Saturday the 22ndof June.
They will be hosting many of the UK's mostloved Christian authors, some of which
have been interviewed here on theChristian Book Blur podcast, including
(28:09):
Cathy Madivant, Andy Bannister, FionaCastle, Bob Hartman, Paul Carenza,
Paula Gooder, Tolle Dolefischer, AmyBoucher Pye, Patrick Regan and many, many
more.
Visit their website, www .sta .litfest .co.uk to get tickets.
As well as to find out more about theprogramme, visit www .sta .litfest .co .uk
(28:34):
today.
If you enjoy listening to this podcast,you can help keep it on the web.
All you've got to do is buy me a coffee.
Head over to buymeacoffee .com slash MattMcChlery to make a donation.
There is a link in this episode's shownotes.
So go on, buy me a coffee today and helpthis podcast to keep supporting Christian
(28:58):
books and authors.
Hello, welcome back to Christian BookBlurb and I'm chatting with Claire and
Steve Musters about their book GraceFilled Marriage and we were chatting a lot
about that before the break.
But what we like to do after the break,Claire and Steve, is to get to know the
authors a little bit better.
(29:19):
Now let's be honest, you have been puttingyour hearts on your sleeve for us already,
which is fantastic, but it's mostly beenin the context of your relationship and
marriage.
which is what the book's about.
So, you know, that's what we've beenfocusing on.
But what about other things?
And, you know, what do you do for fun?
(29:40):
What do we do for fun?
What's fun, they say.
Because we kind of lead a church.
It's so busy, but it is also so importantto make time to have fun.
We love getting out into the country.
We love just...
Although we live in Southern, it's kindof, it's, you know, it's a London borough,
(30:01):
but at least the Surrey Hills are justdown the road.
We can get in the car and go out in thecountry.
I find that does myself, my own sense ofwellbeing, a world of good.
Just love being with the family.
We've got two kids.
I say kids, one's 18, one's 15.
Growing up fast.
Love going to the theater.
Love music.
(30:21):
My background was music.
So grateful both our kids are musical.
and Claire's very musical.
So, um, yeah, so I was, yes, it is nicethat we are near enough that we can go to
London theaters as well.
So we've been trying to do more of that.
Yeah.
And, and galleries, art galleries.
Um, I mean, Steve's right.
We are.
So a lot of my time that's taken upoutside of my work, um, Steve's obviously
(30:46):
pastor, so Chep stuff is his job, but it'snot my paid, um, employment, but I head up
our worship team.
So I am quite heavily involved in themusic side of things.
And while that is, I mean, it's a role Ido, but it's also in love I have.
So I've spent quite a lot of time doingthat as well.
So as worship pastor then, what song atthe moment is particularly capturing the
(31:11):
hearts of your congregation?
Oh, wow.
Unexpected question.
What was the song that we did yesterday?
Promises.
Promises, yeah.
It's talking about God's faithfulness.
Yeah.
Right with your faithfulness to me.
Yeah.
I would say that probably.
And Holy Forever was the one that's beenreally touching people.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
(31:32):
And do you guys sort of downtime?
Are you TV watchers or most authors say,I'm an author, so I love reading books.
Do you read loads of books or, you know,how do you, you know, relax?
I do read a lot of books, but again,that's for work because I run the Women
Alive Book Club.
So I am doing a lot of that for thatpurposes.
(31:55):
And I also write a children's book columnfor the trade magazine together.
So I'm doing a lot of that.
So I do love reading books for pleasure,but I very, very rarely get to do that
because I have a huge to read pile forwork.
I'm quite similar with my podcast.
I've got a massive pile to read for that.
But yeah.
(32:15):
Yeah.
Sorry, Karen.
Our kids love watching TV with us.
And I think that's one thing that came outof lockdown when you're kind of thrust
together and not a lot else you could do.
They've started getting into things likeBake Off.
Our son really likes Dragon's Den.
So we've been watching through some oldepisodes.
Dragon's Den, very good.
Yeah.
There's some things, it's quite a nicefamily thing that we do together.
(32:37):
I think he's a funding entrepreneur.
My children are much younger than yours.
I'm all sort of primary school age and...
the new series of gladiators that's justcome on TV.
Oh, they absolutely love gladiators.
Goodness.
We haven't gone there yet because weremember the first one.
We're like, oh, we weren't, I wasn'tparticularly fond the first time.
I've got so many friends who keep sayingto them, you need to watch it.
(32:59):
I'm holding off.
Yeah.
Resisting.
Oh, wonderful.
Have you got anything coming up soon?
I know.
Claire, you've written several books.
Steve, is this your one and only forayinto writing or have you got something
else you're thinking of?
You know, I never say never, but no, I waskind of dragged kicking and screaming to
(33:22):
write this one and Fray's got our marriageheld up through it.
That was another challenge, another test.
We have very different approaches toorganization, namely Claire is organized
and I'm not.
So yeah, she was incredibly gracious inwaiting for me to actually say your short
answer is no.
(33:44):
Never say never.
He writes 2500 words every week, everytime he preaches.
So he is, well, they only said that that'squite funny as well because he chose his A
levels that anything that wasn't essaybased and now is having to write.
I do a lot of writing.
And I used to edit them when he firststarted and he's absolutely brilliant.
(34:05):
You don't need anything like that now.
So actually he could very easily writemore.
So who knows?
I have got a book just about, shouldprobably be out by the time this airs.
I've been working with Care for the Familyon a bereavement guide actually called The
Grief Journey.
So it's quite short book and it's reallyto come alongside people in those first
(34:28):
few months.
after losing someone, said that.
And I've started working on a new book onlament, which I don't know quite how long
that's going to take me.
It's been on my heart for quite a fewyears because it's been quite a painful
journey over the last few years.
And it has made me start thinking muchmore about it.
And I've recently said to my publisher, itfeels like it's time.
(34:50):
So I'm at the very beginning of thatprocess.
Oh, good.
Lots of things to look forward to.
That's wonderful.
Now, where can people buy this book or anyof your other books, Claire?
And indeed, have you got websites andthings we can point people towards and
social media so they can find you and allthat kind of thing?
Yes.
I just went into chat.
(35:11):
I've not done it very well because all ofthem are different, which is really
unhelpful.
I can't just say everything, which is, butmy web page is ClaireMusters .com.
So Claire has got an I and an E in it.
And that has got our marriage book on it.
and taking off the mask.
And a lot of my other books I did throughWaverley Abbey So they used to be CWR.
(35:33):
So they stock those.
But yes, I'm on Facebook as Claire Musterswriter.
I'm on Instagram as Claire Musters and onTwitter as Sue Musters Twitter.
Now I still call it Twitter.
I can't get my head around X.
So yes, if you want to find out a bit moreabout Steve, you kind of have to do it
through me because he stays off of socialmedia apart from through church.
(35:56):
Well, that's great.
I imagine your other social medias andthings you can get to from your website.
Yes.
So what we'll do for the benefit of ourlisteners is we'll put a link to your
website in this episode's show notes.
And then if people want to get in touch orfollow you or find a book, whatever, they
can click on that and it'll take themwherever they want to go.
(36:18):
That's great.
Thank you very much.
Well, thank you so much for sharing yourlife with us.
It's been...
It's been a privilege, thank you.
And if you've been listening to this andyou would like to know more, I mean,
there's so much more good stuff in thebook that Claire and Steve have written
and called Grace Filled Marriage.
Do go and get yourself a copy.
(36:38):
And I've been fortunate enough to be givena copy to help me prepare for this
podcast.
And what I'll be doing, like I do with alot of the books I have, is I give them
away.
So if you are wanting to win a copy ofGraceful Marriage in my monthly giveaway,
please do tune in.
(36:59):
I don't think you can tune into anewsletter, sign up for my newsletter,
which you can find over on my website,matmclerry .com.
And once a month, there's a wonderful bookgiveaway in there that you can enter.
And Graceful Marriage is going to becoming up in a few months time.
So do keep a lookout for that.
A big thank you to Claire and Steve forjoining me today.
(37:22):
It's been wonderful having you on theshow.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
It's been great to chat to you.
Well, another really big thank you goesout to the St Andrews Literature Festival,
who has sponsored today's episode.
Thanks for your support, guys.
Thank you so much.
And don't forget that this is an inauguralChristian Literature Festival that is
(37:43):
starting in Great Missenden here in the UKon the 21st and the 22nd of June.
So pop over to their website, stalitfest.co .uk to grab your tickets and to find
out more.
I'm going to be popping over on theSaturday, so you never know, we might bump
into each other if you come along.
So grab your tickets now, stalitfest .co.uk and I look forward to seeing you
(38:06):
there.
And thank you as well for listening tothis episode of Christian Book Burb.
Don't forget we come out twice a month onthe 1st and the 15th.
So do join me again really soon foranother edition of Christian Book Blurb.
Goodbye and see you soon.
Thanks for listening to Christian BookBlurb with your host Matt McChlery.
(38:28):
Do give it a like, give it a share and letyour friends know all about it.
We do hope to see you again soon onanother Christian Book Blurb.
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