June 8, 2023 • 34 mins
Get ready for an incredible guest on the Clear as Mud podcast. We had Dan Fadness, Art Director at Terraform Studios, sharing his valuable insights on mentorship for aspiring artists.
He stressed the need for strong foundational knowledge before diving into mentorship, and he gave us a glimpse into the crucial role of an Art Director in the game industry.
Dan also talked about the importance of communication and problem-solving skills in art direction, shedding light on the challenges artists face. And he didn't shy away from discussing dealing with rejection, offering advice and encouragement for navigating the sometimes unforgiving landscape of artistic endeavors.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mazze Whiteley (00:11):
Hello everyone and welcome to our podcast, clear as
Mud, where we talk to game developersfrom all walks of life about their
personal and professional journeys.
I'm your host Maze.
As always, our show is presented byMUDS Stack, the only asset management
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(00:34):
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server to speak with our product team.
Get ready for an incredible gueston the Clearest Mud Podcast.
We're lucky to have Dan Fadnesart director at Terraform Studios
sharing his valuable insights onmentorships for aspiring artists.
He stressed the need for strongfoundational knowledge before diving
(00:56):
into mentorship and gave us a glimpseinto the crucial role of an art
director in the game and film industry.
Dan also talked about the importanceof communication and problem solving
skills in art direction, shuttinglight on the challenges artists face,
navigating the sometimes unforgivinglandscape of artistic endeavors.
Dan also offered some valuableadvice and encouragement for artists
(01:17):
working in the game industry.
So without further ado, here's Dan.
So, Dan, can you share some ofyour personal experience with
mentorship as a junior artist?
How did it shape your career, and whatadvice would you give aspiring artists
regarding finding good mentorships?
Dan Fadness (01:34):
I think that the thing about taking classes is
they're not really catered to you.
They're catered to like ageneral approach, right?
So, If you have a specific skillsetor a specific interest, or let's
say, um, you, you're maybe evenfurther ahead than that, and you
have certainty about what you want.
(01:55):
Mentorships are really great becausethey're kind of like a shortcut, and
it's also like a way to really testyourself to see if the foundational
knowledge that you have is strongenough to succeed in said mentorship.
Right?
So I also think there's kind ofa time and a place for it, like.
If you don't have your foundationsdown, you probably shouldn't
(02:16):
pay for mentorship, right?
Let's say you don't know how todraw perspective, or you don't
understand how light works, oryou don't understand rendering and
you haven't gone through the ScottRobertson series or something, right?
You probably shouldn't pay for amentorship to help you learn those
foundational skills cause it'sgonna cost you a lot of money.
But if you have those skillsunder your belt, mentorship
(02:37):
for design for for composition.
For storytelling, for the expressionparts of, of what you're doing.
That's, that's a priceless thing.
And I, I would highly recommendpeople seek mentorship.
Mazze Whiteley (02:52):
What you really are looking for is kind of direction and.
Coaching, career coaching,things like that.
I think that's where you can reallybenefit a lot from just working with
somebody who actually knows the field.
And then a lot of times there are groupmentorships, but a one bring out so
(03:13):
much of your good creative abilities.
You're probably gonna discover alot about yourself in that process.
Dan Fadness (03:18):
Yeah, definitely.
It's nice to be seen a little bit for whoyou are and what you like and what you
want to do, and that can be just a littlebit harder when you're taking a curriculum
that was, again, not designed for you.
It's, you know, it's designed for ageneral approach to subject A, B, or C.
Can you
Mazze Whiteley (03:37):
describe satisfaction or maybe even the challenges
that you've had, just seeing yourconcepts realized in game and film?
Dan Fadness (03:44):
Most of, most of my career at this point has been in art direction.
Seeing those things come tofruition is, is really cool.
But because I'm working more as adirector and less as a designer,
it's, it's more like I'm kind of.
There to, to bolster aid and helpother people get their ideas off the
(04:05):
ground, which it's exciting to see.
But the, the problem with what wedo at, at Terraform is we're really,
really early on in, in, in like BlueSky pre-production design phase.
We might work on something five yearsbefore a product comes out or three
(04:25):
years before a product comes out.
And so I would say the bulk of ourprojects haven't even been released.
The ones that have been releasedthough are, it's super exciting.
It's really cool to see assetsthat we've designed end up in game.
It's, it's really cool to see.
Like we worked on the WalkingDead, the VR game that they made
like a second version of recently.
(04:46):
And you can see a bunch of thatwork on the Terraform Art Station.
But basically, you know, like I gotto draw some faces for the comic
book and, and Art direct the, theway that the comic book unfolded
with my friend in cohort Oscar.
And it's really cool to see likea bunch of stuff that we made in
Photoshop end up as a animated.
(05:10):
Visual storyboard and, and graphicnovel kind of inside of a VR game.
Like that's pretty cool.
So it's always fun to see, butit's always really odd also because
it goes through a lot of changes.
Well, it depends on what it is.
It can go through a lot of changes,but sometimes, sometimes what you see
in the final product is exactly whatyou made, and that's really exciting.
(05:32):
And sometimes what you see has hadadditional layers of direction.
And maybe it's a bit different and youkind of can just see how your, your
concepts informed that final design, butit's still, it's still pretty exciting.
You
Mazze Whiteley (05:47):
pretty much anticipated what my next question was, so I was
just gonna ask, can you shed somelight on what does an art director
do in the game and film industry?
I think that it's this.
Role that's maybe not as clearlydefined or obvious as other art roles.
So could you just like maybe, maybe walkme through a day, like what does a day
(06:09):
look like for you as an art director?
I
Dan Fadness (06:13):
talked to a lot of people.
I've probably got about 20 projectsunder my belt at the studio, maybe more.
Honestly, I've never totaled it up, but.
When I don't have a lot of projects,I get to do a lot of paint overs.
I get to do lots of lighting adjustments.
I get into blender and mess with stuff.
(06:35):
But when I'm busy, which is more oftenthe case than not, a lot of what I'm
doing is just kind of like puttingout fires and trying to, trying to
find the easiest and most effectivesolution to problems that arise.
Both on the creative side, butthen also on the client side.
(06:57):
We like to have our artists not needto participate in client meetings
and things like that because we wantthem to focus on being creative.
We wanna also have a studio,you know, where, where the
artists can just be artists.
And I think if you ask, if you everinterview any other artists that worked at
Terraform, I think they'd, they'd hopeful,hopefully they'd have great things to say
(07:18):
about working with us, but we, we wantthem to just be creatively empowered, not
stressed out, um, and able to just focuson what they do best, which is, you know,
design and invention and blue sky work.
So I also kind of have to take problemsor any frustrations that come down
the line, which, which don't happenthat often if I'm being honest.
But if they do, It's kind of like my jobto synthesize those and figure out how
(07:42):
to communicate them to the team in a waythat's, that doesn't stress everyone out.
You know, it's kind of thedifference between you submit a
piece of art to someone and they'relike, I really don't like this.
Make this, I take that feedbackand I go, Hey, great job.
Let's make a second iteration.
Right?
So it's kind of like a lot of myjob is, is really being careful
(08:06):
and thoughtful about communication.
And then the other part of itis finding solutions to things
that we don't have answers for.
So a lot of time, because we'rein blue sky, we also will end up
in a phase in production wherepeople want us to just invent stuff
out of, out of thin air, right?
Because they don't have a clear story.
(08:27):
Maybe they don't haveany production assets.
You know, we're designing things beforethey're really fleshed out by the
client themselves a lot of the time.
So, What's fun about that is Iget to be really inventive as
a story person with my team.
But what's also kind of a challenge too isyou're kind of guessing sometimes, right?
(08:50):
You kind of have to just make anidea or just decide on a consecrated
look or path and then say, Youknow, this is what we're gonna do.
Our plan B is to try this other look,and then we will send them both looks
and, and the client can kind of chooseone of the two options and it, and
it tends to work out really well.
But I think that's, that's probablymy favorite part of the job actually,
(09:13):
is when we don't have a lot ofdirection and I have to kind of,
with the team help invent, youknow, really big world influences,
you know, jump into world building.
Figure out semiotics, figureout hierarchy, motif, symbolism,
iconography, like all of that stuff.
(09:34):
That stuff's really fun for me.
I think on a typical day, just toactually circle back to your question,
on a typical day, you do a lot of that,but, but most of the job, when things
are streamlined, most of the job ishonestly just communication and trying
to have quick problem solving skills.
I think you gotta be able to.
(09:55):
You gotta be able tobe quick on your toes.
Right.
Mazze Whiteley (09:58):
Do you think that there were any previous experiences
that you had before going into thisrole that kind of prepared you or
made you feel like you can do that?
You can kind of remix things onthe fly and work with the inherent
chaos of a production schedule.
And also balancing artists who canbe, you know, they have their own
creative visions and maybe thosedon't always align with like the
(10:22):
budget or the production schedule.
Dan Fadness (10:25):
I think until you hit a certain age, especially in your twenties
and and earlier, you go through lifekind of not aware of the cumulative
effort of your experiences, you're kindof unaware of how all these seemingly
random things that happen to you andthat you've done and committed yourself
(10:45):
to affect the greater kind of competencyof self or the greater kind of.
Purpose of self or you know, themyriad of, of, of versions of yourself.
But to answer that question,I think, I think, yeah.
I mean, I, I knocked doors, Idropped outta college when I was 20.
(11:06):
Like right away.
I went to film schooland I, and I hated it.
Not because I hated film school,but because I went to film school
in a city in Colorado where therewas no like industry, right?
So it didn't make any sense.
And so, I dropped outta school and Istarted a landscaping company, which I
built from the ground up with friends byliterally knocking on doors, just going
(11:27):
to neighborhoods and knocking on doors.
And when you deal with a certainamount of rejection all day, cuz
you knock 10 doors, you might getone interested person kind of thing.
When you deal with a certain amount ofrejection like that all day though, you
just kind of get used to having whateverproblem you can imagine being thrown
at you and not stressing out about it.
(11:47):
And then when we actuallystarted getting clients, we
didn't know what we were doing.
So it was like I would get a budgetfrom a client and then I would have
to like go to Home Depot or like go tothe library and read a book about the
subject that I didn't know anything about.
Right.
Because I was just, I had to pay my rent.
I, I needed to, it wasn't likea matter of can I do this?
(12:09):
It was a matter of, I have to do this.
There's no.
Other option cuz this is, thisis where I've positioned myself
as a degree less, you know, bluecollar knocking doors, landscaper.
And that was where I think I got really,really comfortable dealing with problems.
And then I think I've had, I've hadseveral jobs, uh, also outside of that,
(12:33):
but that experience specifically Ithink really helped me later in life.
And that's kind of what I mean when I say.
Until you hit a certain age.
It can be hard to, to look at stufflike that and be like, wow, you know,
that really, who would've thoughtthat that would be, that would've been
useful for being an art director andentertainment, you know, 10 years later.
I sure as hell didn't when I wasknocking doors 10 years ago, you know,
(12:55):
or like 15 years ago at this point.
But it's, it's cool.
It's cool that if you face difficultthings and try to do difficult things
and, and try to push yourself whenyou're young, even if you have to
change careers or even if you have to.
Change industries or you know,do something else with your time.
It will usually empower you.
It, it ends up being a part ofyour skillset, your tool set, and
(13:17):
your, your ability to be resilient.
Cuz I think, I think inabilityto be resilient is really
critical when you're dealing.
With when your job is to sortof reduce problems, right?
It's important that you areresilient to some extent.
Mazze Whiteley (13:34):
Absolutely.
You gotta really like learn howto take a punch, so to speak, you
Dan Fadness (13:39):
know?
Yeah.
And not take it personal.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Mazze Whiteley (13:45):
What made you take the big leap and do this big career change?
You know, you had your ownbusiness going, you made something
out of nothing for yourself.
What was the big motivating factorto get back into doing a creative
Dan Fadness (13:57):
career path?
Actually, landscaping turnedinto going back to school.
You know, I got tired of being in the sun14 hours a day, so I went back to school.
I got an electrical engineering degree.
I, I used that to work as a landman inthe oil and gas industry and alternative
energy industry sector for six years.
(14:19):
I had a myriad of jobs before landscaping.
I, I had a lot of different jobs, but whatI would find was as soon as I got good
at something, I was just drawing like,like as like regardless of every job that
I had, what would happen is I would get.
Good at something, right?
(14:39):
And then I would slack off andI would just be drawing at work
instead of doing what I should be.
And I did that in school.
It wasn't really until I saw like FangZoo videos and started seeing things
on YouTube that I realized like, ohmy God, this is a, this is a career.
Like I'm not just some weird dudewho draws monsters in a sketchbook
(15:00):
and like, you know, no one andevery, no one understood why, because
like, I lived in a place that didn'treally have a creative industry.
Like Denver's a cool city, but it'screative industry just like doesn't exist.
And so it wasn't really until Isaw that it, there was an industry,
there were people that did stuff likethat all day for a job, you know?
(15:20):
And they weren't just like weird artistsin Japan that I had art books for, but
they were like, there were people Icould actually, you know, stand beside
and, and learn from and work with.
And so it, as soon as I figured thatout, I immediately, Dropped all of my
plans and goals and ambitions and madea portfolio to get into Art Center.
(15:42):
Like I think that, I think, I thinkI saw like three F Zoo videos and
then the next day I started working.
I.
On a plan to, to get to Los Angelesand, and to get into art center,
Mazze Whiteley (15:54):
that story is more common than you would think.
We've talked to a lot of differentartists who started their creative
career later in their life, and mainthing that they all pretty much say is,
I was always drawing that's, but I neverthought like, oh, this, this could be
something that could sustain a lifestyle.
It's probably.
(16:15):
Partially due to things like YouTube andthe proliferation of the internet, where
there's a little bit of transparencyabout what goes into making a film or
what goes into making a game and all ofthe different players that are needed.
You know, when people come from aless than idealistic background.
(16:36):
They probably just don't have timeto think, oh, this thing that I
really love to do, that could bemy everyday thing and I don't maybe
have to do all of this other stuff.
If I work really hard, I canpotentially turn this passion,
this, this singular constant that'sbeen in my life into something.
I think that's the amazing thingabout when people get on a podcast
(16:59):
or when they talk about theirstories, like you're probably.
There's a high chance that somebody elseis going to discover that story and it
will be the first time that they've heardit and they might have that epiphany
themselves of, Hey, I can do this too.
Dan Fadness (17:14):
I mean, I hope so.
Cause there's nothing better thanrealizing that there's a place for
it full of people just like youand you can just go there like it.
It was, it was the first timein a long time in my life.
I think I'd been thatexcited about anything.
I hope if this helps someone at all,I hope so, but even, even if not, I
can only imagine that just knowingthe rest of how the US is built, right
(17:38):
creatively, it's hard to not imagine thateveryone kind of in my age bracket, I.
Or a similar age range had asimilar story in some capacity.
You know,
Mazze Whiteley (17:49):
when artists do get into making art a career, a
lot of artists aspire to become artdirectors or creative directors.
Do you believe that that hierarchicaltrajectory is essential or are there
alternative paths for artists toprogress and excel in the industry?
That might be better suited for them.
Dan Fadness (18:09):
I think people want to climb the corporate ladder cuz that's what
they're told they're supposed to do.
Especially if you're a student, right?
You're like, here's the chain ofcommand, here's how you get to the top.
And, and I honestly thinkthat's all bullshit.
I, I think if you justlike to draw, just do that.
If you just like to paint andbe a colorist, just do that.
(18:31):
Like there's really noreason to be an art director.
Or a creative director, unless you really,really like directing and unless you
really, really, really like socializingmore than you like making art, cuz you
do not get to make art very much at all.
Like I have to set aside time to make art.
(18:52):
If that sounds great, go for it.
But if that sounds bad to you,there's no reason to try and improve.
Your leadership qualities andall of that other stuff when you
could just be a better designer.
Right?
Just be the best colorist, be thebest creature person or ship builder
(19:13):
or whatever you want to do, and Ithink you'll be, you'll be happier
than trying to follow a path, pursuingseniority for the sake of status.
I think anytime you pursue status, you're,you're putting the cart before the horse.
Mazze Whiteley (19:28):
I'd have to fully agree there because I do think that once you
take those roles, people are going to kindof assume like, oh, you are a director
guy, like you're a project management guy.
You know, and it, it can startto define your career and
like snowball out of place.
So I think if you are an artistand you really love doing
(19:48):
art, That's your passion.
I think maybe one of the best thingsthat you could do is get really
good and become like a specialist.
We've talked a lot about hiring trendsin the industry, and one thorough
thread that I've heard is the nameof the future is high specialization.
The people who are most in demandfor like actual art roles, it's
(20:10):
because they're an amazing.
Hair texture artist, and they just do it.
And they just, they own that.
You know, they work extremely hard andthey, they practice, practice, practice.
And if you're taking on these projectmanagement roles, maybe those skills
are never going to fully realizethemselves because you just, like
(20:30):
you said, you don't have time.
You have to just carve outlittle slots in your day.
To keep your art skills honed.
Dan Fadness (20:37):
Yeah, and sometimes like, sometimes I feel like I have
to carve out little slots in myday to just not lose my art skill.
Like sometimes it feels like myart is almost entirely in stasis.
Like it's not improving,but it's not getting worse.
It's just maintaining.
Like that's how busy I get.
Right?
If that sounds scary to you, good.
(20:59):
Don't, don't be an art director.
Like just be an artist.
And I think you're rightabout the specialization too.
If I may touch on that a little bit.
So one of the things I've noticed workingin Blue Sky so much is it's actually
really hard sometimes to find artiststhat can do specific things because it
(21:19):
seems like a lot of artists are learningfrom the same gum roads or from the
same hubs and taking the same classes.
And there's nothing wrong withthat cuz it, it gets people.
A general knowledge and you need thatgeneral knowledge before, I think you
can, you can be super specialized.
Really, really, really thoughtfullydesigned architecture for entertainment.
(21:40):
It's hard to find people that dothat sometimes, because usually
they're all working, right?
Because they're so specialized.
Everyone wants them, and we'vehired a lot of people that
can do that really well too.
And so they're already on projectsand sometimes I'm having, I
have a really hard time filling.
Job roles.
I do think the people that we tendto hire the most and the people
(22:01):
that are able to kind of roll withthe times and the punches more are
people who have just really beefedup that design skill specifically.
You know, if you're, if you'rein the top 10 designers on
art station or whatever, like.
You'll always have work, you know?
But if you're a person thatjust makes beautiful key frames
(22:24):
and your design skills kind ofweak, you might not have work.
You might get replaced by unreal engine.
And I'm not saying that to like scarepeople, but I'm, I'm saying that to
kind of say like, you know, put your,put your energy and time into design.
Cuz I think design design will always win.
And I also think.
AI and things like that are,are really terrible at design.
(22:45):
They're really good at making like litimages and, and things look beautiful,
but in terms of actual design and shape,hierarchy and semiotics and form, language
and motif and symbolism and iconography,it doesn't do a very good job.
And so that's great.
Because that means that we allstill have a place in the industry.
(23:06):
It means that there's a place, likeyou said, for high specialization and
that that high specialization is, Ithink definitely the way of the future.
The, the question then I think becomeslike, are you the type of person
that really wants to specialize?
You know, because if you are then,then being an artist is a great path.
(23:28):
But if you're the type of person thatreally doesn't like to specialize and you
like doing more generalized things andyou're kind of more open and easygoing
and you go with the flow more, then artdirection and, and manage and, and things
like that, I think are a better suit for,for people like that, if that makes sense.
Mazze Whiteley (23:47):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
That takes us kind of full circleto what we began talking about.
It's like the role andvalue of good mentorships.
Because if you do wanna get to thatdegree of refinement and like high
specialization, uh, One of the best waysthat you can do that is find somebody else
(24:07):
who's already there and learn everythingthat you possibly can from them.
But that's not the kind of thing thatyou're gonna get in a general curriculum.
And I
Dan Fadness (24:17):
also think tutorials and gum road, sometimes I think
people confuse execution with design.
You know, like rendering andlighting and cycles, render and
cool materials all blended togetherlike that stuff looks sick.
Looks really, really cool.
But I would honestly, if I'm, if I'mjust looking at design, I would rather
(24:38):
see a line drawing with no color with,or maybe some indication of color,
but no, no material, no lighting.
I don't need any of it.
I just need forms.
I just need to see what the thing is goingto be and how it's going to be built.
And I think is like a conundrum withsome of the, the like Aztec advances.
(24:58):
Maybe people don't pay as muchattention sometimes to like
what design is cuz it's so fun.
I I do it myself.
Like, I made a western town this week.
I'm not designing anything.
You know, like I'm just getting incycles and making an illustration.
Like it's, it's a fairly redundantthing for me to be making
at this point in my career.
But it's, it's fun to light things.
(25:20):
It's fun to use cycles,it's fun to render things.
It's fun to use.
Octane, like all that stuff is superfun and it's an important part of the
job, don't get me wrong, but I think.
I think what's more important isjust being able to design something
without all the bells and whistles.
If, if you can make a design thatlooks good without a cool camera
angle and without really impressivematerials and lights and stuff, if it
(25:44):
just looks good as like a gray box,render with like a single light source
from like a 50 millimeter standardlens, it's gonna look good in a shot.
It's gonna look good in a painting,it's gonna look good as a final.
Right.
And and I think when you take mentorship,like when you take a tutorial or a gum
road, they don't teach you that stuff.
(26:04):
Like generally you learn how tomake the cool Western town, you'll
learn how to like link up texturesin blender, but it's pretty hard
to find a tutorial or a gum road.
About how to make a beautiful design justto design itself right in isolation before
it gets put in a key frame or added to acity or, you know, however it gets used.
(26:26):
And so I think to circle back towhat you said, like that's where
mentorship really shines and, andreally takes you to another level is,
is you get that training that isn't.
Maybe abundantly, ubiquitouslyavailable as a tutorial online.
Mazze Whiteley (26:43):
I have to agree with pretty much everything that you just said.
I personally like really love line art.
I do some 2D stuff and I havea graphic novel that I've been
working on for a long time, and Idon't ever want to color anything.
My favorite part is just,just putting those lines down.
There's something magical aboutwhen you get that really nice
curve that's just like, Perfect.
(27:05):
And gives it, gives itexactly what you're going for.
I don't know.
I know
Dan Fadness (27:09):
exactly what you're talking about.
I mean, there's, there's somethingto be said for an effective
line or, or a precise line.
Something that speakswhat your intentions are.
I mean, I'm so obsessedwith design process that.
When I collect art books from allof my favorite artists, I never
collect their finished works.
I only collect their sketchbooksbecause I only want to see, I
(27:31):
don't care about how they paint.
I don't care about whattheir brushstrokes look like.
Like anyone.
You just figure that out.
That's, that's easy stuff to find.
You just watch a YouTubetutorial like it's everywhere.
But what's not easy tofind is design thinking.
How did that personarrive at that decision?
In an iterative drawing processor a blockout process or ZBrush
(27:53):
process or whatever their process is.
How did they sketch out ideas prior to.
Kind of arriving at fault, like polishing,finalizing and finishing that thing up.
I really love learning and looking atdesign process from my favorite artists.
Mazze Whiteley (28:08):
All right.
Well, I think that's, that'spretty much all of my questions.
The one thing that we usually dois we'd give, whoever is a guest
the opportunity to make any shoutouts that they want to do, plug
any of their candles if they want.
So go ahead and do that if you'd like to.
Dan Fadness (28:24):
I mean, I don't, I don't really need to plug myself, I'm kind of
spoiled and, and I think about this a lot.
If there was, if there was anything Iwanted to say about that, I think it
would be if you live and work in la.
You know that there's a lot of artistswho don't have any social media
presence because they don't need to.
Cuz they're in the industryalready and everyone knows them.
So like I get jobs at thispoint through word of mouth and
(28:46):
probably will in the future.
But a lot of my friends who livein other countries, you know,
they're constantly posting onlinebecause they need visibility, right?
They don't have that easy access.
They're not kind of spoiled like I am.
If anything, I would point you to.
The artists at, at Terraform.
Check out.
Check out the artists thatwork at on our projects.
(29:07):
Check out their art station.
It's the Terraform Studios artstation, terraform studios.com.
You can also follow all the artists linksto their art stations and, and just,
just look at the people that are doingreally, really impressive design work.
Cuz if there's one thing I'll say aboutour studio, You know, yeah, we do nice
(29:27):
lighting and rendering and matte paintingand key frames and all that stuff, but
really I think what, what we do is we'rea design house and I've got a, I've gotten
to work with some really incredible.
Incredible people.
So check, check those guys out.
Don't, don't check me out.
Mazze Whiteley (29:43):
I love that.
Well, thank you so much.
You've been a pleasure to talk to and Ithink that you have some really, really
good insights that you know, a lot ofour listeners are younger artists who
are just starting out in the industry.
Or maybe haven't evenbroke into the industry.
And so I think you have alot of really valuable things
(30:04):
that, that they can learn from.
So I really appreciate you taking thetime to come on the Clearest Mud Podcast.
Dan Fadness (30:09):
Sure.
Of course.
I'm fad underscore sketch at on Instagramif anyone has questions about, and,
and I, and I've helped a few otherpeople get into schools and, and
done some little personal mentorshipsmyself, I'm not currently doing that.
I don't have time, but if peoplehave questions for me or just wanna.
Ask me things.
I'm, I'm pretty available online.
(30:30):
I don't post my art that much.
I'm not like transparent creatively at themoment, but I, you know, I am available
if anyone wants to, you know, ask me abouthow to get into a studio like Terraform
or, you know, any, anything really.
That's,
Mazze Whiteley (30:46):
that's awesome.
If you, man, one of the reasons why Iwanted to bring you on is when we talked,
you seem to have a lot of compassion for.
People who are working in thisindustry or who are trying to
pursue their dreams and stuff,
Dan Fadness (30:58):
it's hard not to.
I feel like I've met some people thathave like really big egos about it, and
I think it's really like nearsighted cuzmaybe they forgot how fucking hard it was.
Like it's, it's really hard.
Like it's crazy hard.
So, you know, I try to always, eventhough my life is pretty easy right
now, like I'm getting married, you know,like life's good, like, Everything's,
(31:20):
I mean, my work's work takes up alot of my time, but I'm not like
fighting to get into the industry.
You know, I've also been out hereand seen a lot of art center students
and people that can't afford to goto art center and try to learn to
like, brainstorm or like, you know,design their education from scratch.
And it's, it's, it takes everythingthey have, you know, it really does.
(31:41):
It takes everything they have.
And so I wanna.
You know, always be available.
I'm always available to peoplethat are putting in the effort.
You know, if I will say this,like, don't hit me up if you're
not actively making stuff.
I don't want, I don't want to help you.
But if you're actively makingstuff and you're actively trying,
hit me up, you know, I'll help.
But it's, it, it's really that simple.
(32:02):
Like, because I, I, I, itwas really hard for me.
I had to uproot my wholelife to come out here.
My first job that I had gotcanceled because of Covid.
I was outta work for 10 months,for the first time since I was 16.
I've had a job since I was 16and Covid was the first time I
had no work since I was like 16.
I couldn't find a job and itwas, it was, it was crazy.
(32:24):
I thought about giving up, I thoughtabout leaving LA and then after Covid
I started getting freelance work again,and then I got an art director position.
But it's like, Man, I, I was reallyclose to giving up and so having to
go through that in a myriad of otherstruggles in my life, I think has made it.
If there's anything I can offer people,it's, it's just compassion for how hard
(32:45):
things are, you know, that you want to do.
Like they're supposed to be that hard.
One of my friends movedto New York recently.
He doesn't have, he has a decentamount of money saved up, but
he is not like a rich guy.
And he is, I think he's been comfortablein his place for maybe too long.
And you know, he called me and he waskind of having a, everything was falling
apart and everything was really hard.
(33:06):
And he was like, why iseverything like this?
And I told him, I said, everythingthat you want is supposed to
be that hard if you wanna live.
An exceptional life.
You know, if you want to be an exceptionto the rule, if you want to do things
that people dream of, but don't.
Usually do.
It's gonna be hard.
It's gonna be one of the hardestthings you've ever done, because
it's supposed to be, if it wasn'tthat hard, everyone would do it.
(33:29):
It would be easy andit would be ubiquitous.
So to anyone who's young and listening,if you're really struggling and
you're really feeling shitty, And youknow, things are really difficult.
Just remember likeyou're on the right path.
That's a good sign.
It's supposed to be that difficult, right?
If it wasn't, then you'reprobably climbing the wrong hill.
I
Mazze Whiteley (33:49):
think that's really solid advice.
All right, Dan.
Well, I know you gotta get back to work.
I just want to thank you again.
It was a pleasure gettingto talk to you today.
All right, everyone, that's our show.
Just want to give a huge thankyou to Dan for joining us.
Today and a huge thank youto all of our listeners.
I also wanted to give a shoutout to Tack for making the
Clearest Mud Podcast possible.
(34:10):
If you want to learn moreabout Muds Stack, be sure to
head over to mud stack.com.
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter,and join our Discord surfer where
you can talk to our product team.
Hello everyone and welcome to our podcast, clear as
Mud, where we talk to game developersfrom all walks of life about their
personal and professional journeys.
I'm your host Maze.
As always, our show is presented byMUDS Stack, the only asset management
and collaboration platform custom-builtfor game studios and digital artists.
Muds Stack is now free for artists,so sign up today to improve
(00:34):
your art production pipeline.
For more information, head over to mudsstack.com or sign up for our Discord
server to speak with our product team.
Get ready for an incredible gueston the Clearest Mud Podcast.
We're lucky to have Dan Fadnesart director at Terraform Studios
sharing his valuable insights onmentorships for aspiring artists.
He stressed the need for strongfoundational knowledge before diving
(00:56):
into mentorship and gave us a glimpseinto the crucial role of an art
director in the game and film industry.
Dan also talked about the importanceof communication and problem solving
skills in art direction, shuttinglight on the challenges artists face,
navigating the sometimes unforgivinglandscape of artistic endeavors.
Dan also offered some valuableadvice and encouragement for artists
(01:17):
working in the game industry.
So without further ado, here's Dan.
So, Dan, can you share some ofyour personal experience with
mentorship as a junior artist?
How did it shape your career, and whatadvice would you give aspiring artists
regarding finding good mentorships?
Dan Fadness (01:34):
I think that the thing about taking classes is
they're not really catered to you.
They're catered to like ageneral approach, right?
So, If you have a specific skillsetor a specific interest, or let's
say, um, you, you're maybe evenfurther ahead than that, and you
have certainty about what you want.
(01:55):
Mentorships are really great becausethey're kind of like a shortcut, and
it's also like a way to really testyourself to see if the foundational
knowledge that you have is strongenough to succeed in said mentorship.
Right?
So I also think there's kind ofa time and a place for it, like.
If you don't have your foundationsdown, you probably shouldn't
(02:16):
pay for mentorship, right?
Let's say you don't know how todraw perspective, or you don't
understand how light works, oryou don't understand rendering and
you haven't gone through the ScottRobertson series or something, right?
You probably shouldn't pay for amentorship to help you learn those
foundational skills cause it'sgonna cost you a lot of money.
But if you have those skillsunder your belt, mentorship
(02:37):
for design for for composition.
For storytelling, for the expressionparts of, of what you're doing.
That's, that's a priceless thing.
And I, I would highly recommendpeople seek mentorship.
Mazze Whiteley (02:52):
What you really are looking for is kind of direction and.
Coaching, career coaching,things like that.
I think that's where you can reallybenefit a lot from just working with
somebody who actually knows the field.
And then a lot of times there are groupmentorships, but a one bring out so
(03:13):
much of your good creative abilities.
You're probably gonna discover alot about yourself in that process.
Dan Fadness (03:18):
Yeah, definitely.
It's nice to be seen a little bit for whoyou are and what you like and what you
want to do, and that can be just a littlebit harder when you're taking a curriculum
that was, again, not designed for you.
It's, you know, it's designed for ageneral approach to subject A, B, or C.
Can you
Mazze Whiteley (03:37):
describe satisfaction or maybe even the challenges
that you've had, just seeing yourconcepts realized in game and film?
Dan Fadness (03:44):
Most of, most of my career at this point has been in art direction.
Seeing those things come tofruition is, is really cool.
But because I'm working more as adirector and less as a designer,
it's, it's more like I'm kind of.
There to, to bolster aid and helpother people get their ideas off the
(04:05):
ground, which it's exciting to see.
But the, the problem with what wedo at, at Terraform is we're really,
really early on in, in, in like BlueSky pre-production design phase.
We might work on something five yearsbefore a product comes out or three
(04:25):
years before a product comes out.
And so I would say the bulk of ourprojects haven't even been released.
The ones that have been releasedthough are, it's super exciting.
It's really cool to see assetsthat we've designed end up in game.
It's, it's really cool to see.
Like we worked on the WalkingDead, the VR game that they made
like a second version of recently.
(04:46):
And you can see a bunch of thatwork on the Terraform Art Station.
But basically, you know, like I gotto draw some faces for the comic
book and, and Art direct the, theway that the comic book unfolded
with my friend in cohort Oscar.
And it's really cool to see likea bunch of stuff that we made in
Photoshop end up as a animated.
(05:10):
Visual storyboard and, and graphicnovel kind of inside of a VR game.
Like that's pretty cool.
So it's always fun to see, butit's always really odd also because
it goes through a lot of changes.
Well, it depends on what it is.
It can go through a lot of changes,but sometimes, sometimes what you see
in the final product is exactly whatyou made, and that's really exciting.
(05:32):
And sometimes what you see has hadadditional layers of direction.
And maybe it's a bit different and youkind of can just see how your, your
concepts informed that final design, butit's still, it's still pretty exciting.
You
Mazze Whiteley (05:47):
pretty much anticipated what my next question was, so I was
just gonna ask, can you shed somelight on what does an art director
do in the game and film industry?
I think that it's this.
Role that's maybe not as clearlydefined or obvious as other art roles.
So could you just like maybe, maybe walkme through a day, like what does a day
(06:09):
look like for you as an art director?
I
Dan Fadness (06:13):
talked to a lot of people.
I've probably got about 20 projectsunder my belt at the studio, maybe more.
Honestly, I've never totaled it up, but.
When I don't have a lot of projects,I get to do a lot of paint overs.
I get to do lots of lighting adjustments.
I get into blender and mess with stuff.
(06:35):
But when I'm busy, which is more oftenthe case than not, a lot of what I'm
doing is just kind of like puttingout fires and trying to, trying to
find the easiest and most effectivesolution to problems that arise.
Both on the creative side, butthen also on the client side.
(06:57):
We like to have our artists not needto participate in client meetings
and things like that because we wantthem to focus on being creative.
We wanna also have a studio,you know, where, where the
artists can just be artists.
And I think if you ask, if you everinterview any other artists that worked at
Terraform, I think they'd, they'd hopeful,hopefully they'd have great things to say
(07:18):
about working with us, but we, we wantthem to just be creatively empowered, not
stressed out, um, and able to just focuson what they do best, which is, you know,
design and invention and blue sky work.
So I also kind of have to take problemsor any frustrations that come down
the line, which, which don't happenthat often if I'm being honest.
But if they do, It's kind of like my jobto synthesize those and figure out how
(07:42):
to communicate them to the team in a waythat's, that doesn't stress everyone out.
You know, it's kind of thedifference between you submit a
piece of art to someone and they'relike, I really don't like this.
Make this, I take that feedbackand I go, Hey, great job.
Let's make a second iteration.
Right?
So it's kind of like a lot of myjob is, is really being careful
(08:06):
and thoughtful about communication.
And then the other part of itis finding solutions to things
that we don't have answers for.
So a lot of time, because we'rein blue sky, we also will end up
in a phase in production wherepeople want us to just invent stuff
out of, out of thin air, right?
Because they don't have a clear story.
(08:27):
Maybe they don't haveany production assets.
You know, we're designing things beforethey're really fleshed out by the
client themselves a lot of the time.
So, What's fun about that is Iget to be really inventive as
a story person with my team.
But what's also kind of a challenge too isyou're kind of guessing sometimes, right?
(08:50):
You kind of have to just make anidea or just decide on a consecrated
look or path and then say, Youknow, this is what we're gonna do.
Our plan B is to try this other look,and then we will send them both looks
and, and the client can kind of chooseone of the two options and it, and
it tends to work out really well.
But I think that's, that's probablymy favorite part of the job actually,
(09:13):
is when we don't have a lot ofdirection and I have to kind of,
with the team help invent, youknow, really big world influences,
you know, jump into world building.
Figure out semiotics, figureout hierarchy, motif, symbolism,
iconography, like all of that stuff.
(09:34):
That stuff's really fun for me.
I think on a typical day, just toactually circle back to your question,
on a typical day, you do a lot of that,but, but most of the job, when things
are streamlined, most of the job ishonestly just communication and trying
to have quick problem solving skills.
I think you gotta be able to.
(09:55):
You gotta be able tobe quick on your toes.
Right.
Mazze Whiteley (09:58):
Do you think that there were any previous experiences
that you had before going into thisrole that kind of prepared you or
made you feel like you can do that?
You can kind of remix things onthe fly and work with the inherent
chaos of a production schedule.
And also balancing artists who canbe, you know, they have their own
creative visions and maybe thosedon't always align with like the
(10:22):
budget or the production schedule.
Dan Fadness (10:25):
I think until you hit a certain age, especially in your twenties
and and earlier, you go through lifekind of not aware of the cumulative
effort of your experiences, you're kindof unaware of how all these seemingly
random things that happen to you andthat you've done and committed yourself
(10:45):
to affect the greater kind of competencyof self or the greater kind of.
Purpose of self or you know, themyriad of, of, of versions of yourself.
But to answer that question,I think, I think, yeah.
I mean, I, I knocked doors, Idropped outta college when I was 20.
(11:06):
Like right away.
I went to film schooland I, and I hated it.
Not because I hated film school,but because I went to film school
in a city in Colorado where therewas no like industry, right?
So it didn't make any sense.
And so, I dropped outta school and Istarted a landscaping company, which I
built from the ground up with friends byliterally knocking on doors, just going
(11:27):
to neighborhoods and knocking on doors.
And when you deal with a certainamount of rejection all day, cuz
you knock 10 doors, you might getone interested person kind of thing.
When you deal with a certain amount ofrejection like that all day though, you
just kind of get used to having whateverproblem you can imagine being thrown
at you and not stressing out about it.
(11:47):
And then when we actuallystarted getting clients, we
didn't know what we were doing.
So it was like I would get a budgetfrom a client and then I would have
to like go to Home Depot or like go tothe library and read a book about the
subject that I didn't know anything about.
Right.
Because I was just, I had to pay my rent.
I, I needed to, it wasn't likea matter of can I do this?
(12:09):
It was a matter of, I have to do this.
There's no.
Other option cuz this is, thisis where I've positioned myself
as a degree less, you know, bluecollar knocking doors, landscaper.
And that was where I think I got really,really comfortable dealing with problems.
And then I think I've had, I've hadseveral jobs, uh, also outside of that,
(12:33):
but that experience specifically Ithink really helped me later in life.
And that's kind of what I mean when I say.
Until you hit a certain age.
It can be hard to, to look at stufflike that and be like, wow, you know,
that really, who would've thoughtthat that would be, that would've been
useful for being an art director andentertainment, you know, 10 years later.
I sure as hell didn't when I wasknocking doors 10 years ago, you know,
(12:55):
or like 15 years ago at this point.
But it's, it's cool.
It's cool that if you face difficultthings and try to do difficult things
and, and try to push yourself whenyou're young, even if you have to
change careers or even if you have to.
Change industries or you know,do something else with your time.
It will usually empower you.
It, it ends up being a part ofyour skillset, your tool set, and
(13:17):
your, your ability to be resilient.
Cuz I think, I think inabilityto be resilient is really
critical when you're dealing.
With when your job is to sortof reduce problems, right?
It's important that you areresilient to some extent.
Mazze Whiteley (13:34):
Absolutely.
You gotta really like learn howto take a punch, so to speak, you
Dan Fadness (13:39):
know?
Yeah.
And not take it personal.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Mazze Whiteley (13:45):
What made you take the big leap and do this big career change?
You know, you had your ownbusiness going, you made something
out of nothing for yourself.
What was the big motivating factorto get back into doing a creative
Dan Fadness (13:57):
career path?
Actually, landscaping turnedinto going back to school.
You know, I got tired of being in the sun14 hours a day, so I went back to school.
I got an electrical engineering degree.
I, I used that to work as a landman inthe oil and gas industry and alternative
energy industry sector for six years.
(14:19):
I had a myriad of jobs before landscaping.
I, I had a lot of different jobs, but whatI would find was as soon as I got good
at something, I was just drawing like,like as like regardless of every job that
I had, what would happen is I would get.
Good at something, right?
(14:39):
And then I would slack off andI would just be drawing at work
instead of doing what I should be.
And I did that in school.
It wasn't really until I saw like FangZoo videos and started seeing things
on YouTube that I realized like, ohmy God, this is a, this is a career.
Like I'm not just some weird dudewho draws monsters in a sketchbook
(15:00):
and like, you know, no one andevery, no one understood why, because
like, I lived in a place that didn'treally have a creative industry.
Like Denver's a cool city, but it'screative industry just like doesn't exist.
And so it wasn't really until Isaw that it, there was an industry,
there were people that did stuff likethat all day for a job, you know?
(15:20):
And they weren't just like weird artistsin Japan that I had art books for, but
they were like, there were people Icould actually, you know, stand beside
and, and learn from and work with.
And so it, as soon as I figured thatout, I immediately, Dropped all of my
plans and goals and ambitions and madea portfolio to get into Art Center.
(15:42):
Like I think that, I think, I thinkI saw like three F Zoo videos and
then the next day I started working.
I.
On a plan to, to get to Los Angelesand, and to get into art center,
Mazze Whiteley (15:54):
that story is more common than you would think.
We've talked to a lot of differentartists who started their creative
career later in their life, and mainthing that they all pretty much say is,
I was always drawing that's, but I neverthought like, oh, this, this could be
something that could sustain a lifestyle.
It's probably.
(16:15):
Partially due to things like YouTube andthe proliferation of the internet, where
there's a little bit of transparencyabout what goes into making a film or
what goes into making a game and all ofthe different players that are needed.
You know, when people come from aless than idealistic background.
(16:36):
They probably just don't have timeto think, oh, this thing that I
really love to do, that could bemy everyday thing and I don't maybe
have to do all of this other stuff.
If I work really hard, I canpotentially turn this passion,
this, this singular constant that'sbeen in my life into something.
I think that's the amazing thingabout when people get on a podcast
(16:59):
or when they talk about theirstories, like you're probably.
There's a high chance that somebody elseis going to discover that story and it
will be the first time that they've heardit and they might have that epiphany
themselves of, Hey, I can do this too.
Dan Fadness (17:14):
I mean, I hope so.
Cause there's nothing better thanrealizing that there's a place for
it full of people just like youand you can just go there like it.
It was, it was the first timein a long time in my life.
I think I'd been thatexcited about anything.
I hope if this helps someone at all,I hope so, but even, even if not, I
can only imagine that just knowingthe rest of how the US is built, right
(17:38):
creatively, it's hard to not imagine thateveryone kind of in my age bracket, I.
Or a similar age range had asimilar story in some capacity.
You know,
Mazze Whiteley (17:49):
when artists do get into making art a career, a
lot of artists aspire to become artdirectors or creative directors.
Do you believe that that hierarchicaltrajectory is essential or are there
alternative paths for artists toprogress and excel in the industry?
That might be better suited for them.
Dan Fadness (18:09):
I think people want to climb the corporate ladder cuz that's what
they're told they're supposed to do.
Especially if you're a student, right?
You're like, here's the chain ofcommand, here's how you get to the top.
And, and I honestly thinkthat's all bullshit.
I, I think if you justlike to draw, just do that.
If you just like to paint andbe a colorist, just do that.
(18:31):
Like there's really noreason to be an art director.
Or a creative director, unless you really,really like directing and unless you
really, really, really like socializingmore than you like making art, cuz you
do not get to make art very much at all.
Like I have to set aside time to make art.
(18:52):
If that sounds great, go for it.
But if that sounds bad to you,there's no reason to try and improve.
Your leadership qualities andall of that other stuff when you
could just be a better designer.
Right?
Just be the best colorist, be thebest creature person or ship builder
(19:13):
or whatever you want to do, and Ithink you'll be, you'll be happier
than trying to follow a path, pursuingseniority for the sake of status.
I think anytime you pursue status, you're,you're putting the cart before the horse.
Mazze Whiteley (19:28):
I'd have to fully agree there because I do think that once you
take those roles, people are going to kindof assume like, oh, you are a director
guy, like you're a project management guy.
You know, and it, it can startto define your career and
like snowball out of place.
So I think if you are an artistand you really love doing
(19:48):
art, That's your passion.
I think maybe one of the best thingsthat you could do is get really
good and become like a specialist.
We've talked a lot about hiring trendsin the industry, and one thorough
thread that I've heard is the nameof the future is high specialization.
The people who are most in demandfor like actual art roles, it's
(20:10):
because they're an amazing.
Hair texture artist, and they just do it.
And they just, they own that.
You know, they work extremely hard andthey, they practice, practice, practice.
And if you're taking on these projectmanagement roles, maybe those skills
are never going to fully realizethemselves because you just, like
(20:30):
you said, you don't have time.
You have to just carve outlittle slots in your day.
To keep your art skills honed.
Dan Fadness (20:37):
Yeah, and sometimes like, sometimes I feel like I have
to carve out little slots in myday to just not lose my art skill.
Like sometimes it feels like myart is almost entirely in stasis.
Like it's not improving,but it's not getting worse.
It's just maintaining.
Like that's how busy I get.
Right?
If that sounds scary to you, good.
(20:59):
Don't, don't be an art director.
Like just be an artist.
And I think you're rightabout the specialization too.
If I may touch on that a little bit.
So one of the things I've noticed workingin Blue Sky so much is it's actually
really hard sometimes to find artiststhat can do specific things because it
(21:19):
seems like a lot of artists are learningfrom the same gum roads or from the
same hubs and taking the same classes.
And there's nothing wrong withthat cuz it, it gets people.
A general knowledge and you need thatgeneral knowledge before, I think you
can, you can be super specialized.
Really, really, really thoughtfullydesigned architecture for entertainment.
(21:40):
It's hard to find people that dothat sometimes, because usually
they're all working, right?
Because they're so specialized.
Everyone wants them, and we'vehired a lot of people that
can do that really well too.
And so they're already on projectsand sometimes I'm having, I
have a really hard time filling.
Job roles.
I do think the people that we tendto hire the most and the people
(22:01):
that are able to kind of roll withthe times and the punches more are
people who have just really beefedup that design skill specifically.
You know, if you're, if you'rein the top 10 designers on
art station or whatever, like.
You'll always have work, you know?
But if you're a person thatjust makes beautiful key frames
(22:24):
and your design skills kind ofweak, you might not have work.
You might get replaced by unreal engine.
And I'm not saying that to like scarepeople, but I'm, I'm saying that to
kind of say like, you know, put your,put your energy and time into design.
Cuz I think design design will always win.
And I also think.
AI and things like that are,are really terrible at design.
(22:45):
They're really good at making like litimages and, and things look beautiful,
but in terms of actual design and shape,hierarchy and semiotics and form, language
and motif and symbolism and iconography,it doesn't do a very good job.
And so that's great.
Because that means that we allstill have a place in the industry.
(23:06):
It means that there's a place, likeyou said, for high specialization and
that that high specialization is, Ithink definitely the way of the future.
The, the question then I think becomeslike, are you the type of person
that really wants to specialize?
You know, because if you are then,then being an artist is a great path.
(23:28):
But if you're the type of person thatreally doesn't like to specialize and you
like doing more generalized things andyou're kind of more open and easygoing
and you go with the flow more, then artdirection and, and manage and, and things
like that, I think are a better suit for,for people like that, if that makes sense.
Mazze Whiteley (23:47):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
That takes us kind of full circleto what we began talking about.
It's like the role andvalue of good mentorships.
Because if you do wanna get to thatdegree of refinement and like high
specialization, uh, One of the best waysthat you can do that is find somebody else
(24:07):
who's already there and learn everythingthat you possibly can from them.
But that's not the kind of thing thatyou're gonna get in a general curriculum.
And I
Dan Fadness (24:17):
also think tutorials and gum road, sometimes I think
people confuse execution with design.
You know, like rendering andlighting and cycles, render and
cool materials all blended togetherlike that stuff looks sick.
Looks really, really cool.
But I would honestly, if I'm, if I'mjust looking at design, I would rather
(24:38):
see a line drawing with no color with,or maybe some indication of color,
but no, no material, no lighting.
I don't need any of it.
I just need forms.
I just need to see what the thing is goingto be and how it's going to be built.
And I think is like a conundrum withsome of the, the like Aztec advances.
(24:58):
Maybe people don't pay as muchattention sometimes to like
what design is cuz it's so fun.
I I do it myself.
Like, I made a western town this week.
I'm not designing anything.
You know, like I'm just getting incycles and making an illustration.
Like it's, it's a fairly redundantthing for me to be making
at this point in my career.
But it's, it's fun to light things.
(25:20):
It's fun to use cycles,it's fun to render things.
It's fun to use.
Octane, like all that stuff is superfun and it's an important part of the
job, don't get me wrong, but I think.
I think what's more important isjust being able to design something
without all the bells and whistles.
If, if you can make a design thatlooks good without a cool camera
angle and without really impressivematerials and lights and stuff, if it
(25:44):
just looks good as like a gray box,render with like a single light source
from like a 50 millimeter standardlens, it's gonna look good in a shot.
It's gonna look good in a painting,it's gonna look good as a final.
Right.
And and I think when you take mentorship,like when you take a tutorial or a gum
road, they don't teach you that stuff.
(26:04):
Like generally you learn how tomake the cool Western town, you'll
learn how to like link up texturesin blender, but it's pretty hard
to find a tutorial or a gum road.
About how to make a beautiful design justto design itself right in isolation before
it gets put in a key frame or added to acity or, you know, however it gets used.
(26:26):
And so I think to circle back towhat you said, like that's where
mentorship really shines and, andreally takes you to another level is,
is you get that training that isn't.
Maybe abundantly, ubiquitouslyavailable as a tutorial online.
Mazze Whiteley (26:43):
I have to agree with pretty much everything that you just said.
I personally like really love line art.
I do some 2D stuff and I havea graphic novel that I've been
working on for a long time, and Idon't ever want to color anything.
My favorite part is just,just putting those lines down.
There's something magical aboutwhen you get that really nice
curve that's just like, Perfect.
(27:05):
And gives it, gives itexactly what you're going for.
I don't know.
I know
Dan Fadness (27:09):
exactly what you're talking about.
I mean, there's, there's somethingto be said for an effective
line or, or a precise line.
Something that speakswhat your intentions are.
I mean, I'm so obsessedwith design process that.
When I collect art books from allof my favorite artists, I never
collect their finished works.
I only collect their sketchbooksbecause I only want to see, I
(27:31):
don't care about how they paint.
I don't care about whattheir brushstrokes look like.
Like anyone.
You just figure that out.
That's, that's easy stuff to find.
You just watch a YouTubetutorial like it's everywhere.
But what's not easy tofind is design thinking.
How did that personarrive at that decision?
In an iterative drawing processor a blockout process or ZBrush
(27:53):
process or whatever their process is.
How did they sketch out ideas prior to.
Kind of arriving at fault, like polishing,finalizing and finishing that thing up.
I really love learning and looking atdesign process from my favorite artists.
Mazze Whiteley (28:08):
All right.
Well, I think that's, that'spretty much all of my questions.
The one thing that we usually dois we'd give, whoever is a guest
the opportunity to make any shoutouts that they want to do, plug
any of their candles if they want.
So go ahead and do that if you'd like to.
Dan Fadness (28:24):
I mean, I don't, I don't really need to plug myself, I'm kind of
spoiled and, and I think about this a lot.
If there was, if there was anything Iwanted to say about that, I think it
would be if you live and work in la.
You know that there's a lot of artistswho don't have any social media
presence because they don't need to.
Cuz they're in the industryalready and everyone knows them.
So like I get jobs at thispoint through word of mouth and
(28:46):
probably will in the future.
But a lot of my friends who livein other countries, you know,
they're constantly posting onlinebecause they need visibility, right?
They don't have that easy access.
They're not kind of spoiled like I am.
If anything, I would point you to.
The artists at, at Terraform.
Check out.
Check out the artists thatwork at on our projects.
(29:07):
Check out their art station.
It's the Terraform Studios artstation, terraform studios.com.
You can also follow all the artists linksto their art stations and, and just,
just look at the people that are doingreally, really impressive design work.
Cuz if there's one thing I'll say aboutour studio, You know, yeah, we do nice
(29:27):
lighting and rendering and matte paintingand key frames and all that stuff, but
really I think what, what we do is we'rea design house and I've got a, I've gotten
to work with some really incredible.
Incredible people.
So check, check those guys out.
Don't, don't check me out.
Mazze Whiteley (29:43):
I love that.
Well, thank you so much.
You've been a pleasure to talk to and Ithink that you have some really, really
good insights that you know, a lot ofour listeners are younger artists who
are just starting out in the industry.
Or maybe haven't evenbroke into the industry.
And so I think you have alot of really valuable things
(30:04):
that, that they can learn from.
So I really appreciate you taking thetime to come on the Clearest Mud Podcast.
Dan Fadness (30:09):
Sure.
Of course.
I'm fad underscore sketch at on Instagramif anyone has questions about, and,
and I, and I've helped a few otherpeople get into schools and, and
done some little personal mentorshipsmyself, I'm not currently doing that.
I don't have time, but if peoplehave questions for me or just wanna.
Ask me things.
I'm, I'm pretty available online.
(30:30):
I don't post my art that much.
I'm not like transparent creatively at themoment, but I, you know, I am available
if anyone wants to, you know, ask me abouthow to get into a studio like Terraform
or, you know, any, anything really.
That's,
Mazze Whiteley (30:46):
that's awesome.
If you, man, one of the reasons why Iwanted to bring you on is when we talked,
you seem to have a lot of compassion for.
People who are working in thisindustry or who are trying to
pursue their dreams and stuff,
Dan Fadness (30:58):
it's hard not to.
I feel like I've met some people thathave like really big egos about it, and
I think it's really like nearsighted cuzmaybe they forgot how fucking hard it was.
Like it's, it's really hard.
Like it's crazy hard.
So, you know, I try to always, eventhough my life is pretty easy right
now, like I'm getting married, you know,like life's good, like, Everything's,
(31:20):
I mean, my work's work takes up alot of my time, but I'm not like
fighting to get into the industry.
You know, I've also been out hereand seen a lot of art center students
and people that can't afford to goto art center and try to learn to
like, brainstorm or like, you know,design their education from scratch.
And it's, it's, it takes everythingthey have, you know, it really does.
(31:41):
It takes everything they have.
And so I wanna.
You know, always be available.
I'm always available to peoplethat are putting in the effort.
You know, if I will say this,like, don't hit me up if you're
not actively making stuff.
I don't want, I don't want to help you.
But if you're actively makingstuff and you're actively trying,
hit me up, you know, I'll help.
But it's, it, it's really that simple.
(32:02):
Like, because I, I, I, itwas really hard for me.
I had to uproot my wholelife to come out here.
My first job that I had gotcanceled because of Covid.
I was outta work for 10 months,for the first time since I was 16.
I've had a job since I was 16and Covid was the first time I
had no work since I was like 16.
I couldn't find a job and itwas, it was, it was crazy.
(32:24):
I thought about giving up, I thoughtabout leaving LA and then after Covid
I started getting freelance work again,and then I got an art director position.
But it's like, Man, I, I was reallyclose to giving up and so having to
go through that in a myriad of otherstruggles in my life, I think has made it.
If there's anything I can offer people,it's, it's just compassion for how hard
(32:45):
things are, you know, that you want to do.
Like they're supposed to be that hard.
One of my friends movedto New York recently.
He doesn't have, he has a decentamount of money saved up, but
he is not like a rich guy.
And he is, I think he's been comfortablein his place for maybe too long.
And you know, he called me and he waskind of having a, everything was falling
apart and everything was really hard.
(33:06):
And he was like, why iseverything like this?
And I told him, I said, everythingthat you want is supposed to
be that hard if you wanna live.
An exceptional life.
You know, if you want to be an exceptionto the rule, if you want to do things
that people dream of, but don't.
Usually do.
It's gonna be hard.
It's gonna be one of the hardestthings you've ever done, because
it's supposed to be, if it wasn'tthat hard, everyone would do it.
(33:29):
It would be easy andit would be ubiquitous.
So to anyone who's young and listening,if you're really struggling and
you're really feeling shitty, And youknow, things are really difficult.
Just remember likeyou're on the right path.
That's a good sign.
It's supposed to be that difficult, right?
If it wasn't, then you'reprobably climbing the wrong hill.
I
Mazze Whiteley (33:49):
think that's really solid advice.
All right, Dan.
Well, I know you gotta get back to work.
I just want to thank you again.
It was a pleasure gettingto talk to you today.
All right, everyone, that's our show.
Just want to give a huge thankyou to Dan for joining us.
Today and a huge thank youto all of our listeners.
I also wanted to give a shoutout to Tack for making the
Clearest Mud Podcast possible.
(34:10):
If you want to learn moreabout Muds Stack, be sure to
head over to mud stack.com.
Follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter,and join our Discord surfer where
you can talk to our product team.
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