May 13, 2025 • 21 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Brandon and Tom answer frequently asked questions they get from listeners, and tell you how you can reach out and ask your own.
Brandon and Tom discuss: → How to know the right time to hire, hiring common positions like fulfilment and underwriters, the different ways you can structure pay, and why it's important to know the type of person you're hiring and what incentivizes them. → How they feel about AI, how they use AI in their business, and how they think AI will impact the industry going forward. → What CRM they use, how Tango is structured, and the future of mortgage brokers in Canada.
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TANGO ONTARIO
📧 Email Us → ontario@tangofinancial.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of
Commission Breath.
Brandon Love here with Tom
Moffitt.
And today we are going to do
probably not rapid fire becausewe're more easy does it kind of
pace guys, but we're going to firethrough a bunch of questions that
we get frequently asked byCommission Breath listeners in
person, on social media, viaemail, etc. We hear you.
We usually try to give you apretty good response, but some of
(00:22):
these come up quite often.
So we're just going to do a deep
dive into those today.
Yeah, we've been guilty of not
answering our commission breathInstagram.
been guilty of not answering ourcommission breath Instagram.
So if you want to ask usquestions, do it to our personal
Instagram, because we're notalways on the commission breath
one.
But why don't you start us off
with question number one, buddy?Yeah, so a question I get a lot
from people is, how do I know whenis the right time to hire?
(00:44):
And how should I structure myhiring?
So my honest opinion, honestopinion, you can lump this into
hiring, but I would getfulfillment right away.
Because there's fulfillment.
models out there where you're
paying per file.
Sure, you're taking a cut per
file.
But if you can pay $400 to $500
per file, and you're taking halfthe amount of load off of your
(01:04):
play for each file, it's 100 %worth it.
That's my take is like right away,higher fulfillment.
That's the first piece that youshould be hiring for.
Yeah, I think even if you're a $5million producer.
that's something you should hirefor.
I know that seems like you'regiving up a large portion of your
income at that point, but you'rebuying back so much time that you
can pour into prospecting.
So that's the first one I would
(01:24):
do.
And there are so many people, like
we have probably four peoplewithin Tango who offer these
services to agents.
And it's typically in that $400 to
$500 range.
They do all the document
submission to the lender.
They put together your signing
package.
They do all the compliance.
So it's literally done for you.
You just focus on client
nurturing, finding new clients,expanding your prospecting,
marketing, et cetera.
(01:45):
All those other hats you still
have to wear in the business, butit takes a big chunk off your
plate.
The other thing here too is like,
you might say, hey, I'm reallygood at it or it doesn't take me
that much time.
I said, great, but are you going
to be the $50 million producerwho's really good at doing their
own compliance?Probably not.
It's something you eventually haveto get off your plate.
So get it off early and just moveon to the next thing.
(02:07):
Yeah.
And there's a counter argument
that you should learn how to dothe signing packages and fulfill
conditions, which I get, maybe doit for your first 10 files, learn
how to satisfy down payment.
But like, honestly, man, I haven't
done it in like maybe three yearsnow.
I wouldn't even be able to do thattoday.
Satisfy down payment with bankstatements and gift letters and
all that.
And any questions I have from
clients, I always just say, Hey,like ask Diana, she is the
(02:29):
specialist when it comes to this.
In my eyes, you don't even really
need to have to do your first timedoing it, but there is that
argument.
And I do say like right away,
specifically for the reason thatmost people entering mortgage
brokering as an agent or broker,they are working full -time still
with their full -time job.
So you almost need to have that
fulfillment while you're at workto fulfill those conditions,
right?Yeah, that's a great point.
If you plan on doing... like thisas a part -time gig, it will
(02:53):
eventually become full -time ifyou're good at it because it takes
up so much time.
But having that fulfillment does
buy you a little bit of runway.
The next big hire that people
usually look at is an underwriter.
And underwriting hiring is really
tricky because there's people thatare fantastic underwriters, people
are terrible underwriters, buteveryone kind of thinks they're a
good underwriter.
There's also an issue where your
work ethic and what you put intoyour business might vary wildly
(03:17):
from an underwriter who feels thattheir job is just a straight nine
to five.
When you're hiring an underwriter,
it's about determining, is this agood underwriter first off?
So have a few sample files fromyour past files that you know
maybe were a little bit tricky.
Ask them, how would you handle
this?What would you do differently?
(03:39):
What's the hardest file you'veworked on?
Things like that nature.
But then also say, what is your
expectations for a workday?If a client calls me on... a
thursday night or something theywant to go live on a file i know
my underwriter kyle is going torespond to my text if i have a
quick question on the flip side ifhe weren't going to respond until
friday then all of a sudden i'mjumping back into the file trying
(04:00):
to figure out what he's done goingback to that client wasting a
bunch of time at which point iwouldn't feel that great about
giving up a big chunk of my myearnings to him like the actual
position of underwriting positionof underwriting It's skewed in
many different ways because a lotof people think like I'm going to
hire an underwriter and then Ihave all of this load off my
plate.
It depends on the person you're
hiring.
Traditional underwriters, their
mindset is they just want to bebehind the scenes, plugging away
(04:22):
and do the actual underwriting andnot be client facing.
So you really want to distinguishwhat is that role for that person?
Are they going to be a hybridwhere they're doing the
underwriting and the client facingactivities?
Or do you just want to have themdo the underwriting and you're
still the face of the brand andtalking to the client?
So you really got to define whatthat role is.
And lucky for us, we did find.
that hybrid person in Kyle that is
(04:42):
really good with clients and knowshow to underwrite really well as
well, which is kind of a diamondin the rough, to be honest.
Like, I think if you're going tohire an underwriter, you're
probably going to be easier offfinding a straight up underwriter.
And then from there, as you getbusier, maybe you do hire that
person that's like client facingthat does the initial upfront
discovery call and is more of thatlike juggernaut salesperson.
Exactly.
And just to add to that point, to
(05:02):
add to that point, when it comesto hiring, be really cautious
about accepting who you are.
hire for who they are and what
their skills are.
People have room to grow, but
you're not going to turn someonewho's very introverted and
reserved and nervous talking topeople into that fantastic
outgoing salesperson that you maywant.
Be mindful of who they are as anindividual.
That doesn't mean they're not theright fit for you, but they might
have a role that's very definedand specific.
(05:23):
And then you might have to findthat supporting cast elsewhere.
A lot of the failures I see ispeople say, I want this person to
be like very outgoing, followingup with my clients, doing calls,
being proactive in spaces wherethat person is actually really
anxious and likes to hide behindtheir keyboard and is just going
(05:43):
to send emails.
And then you're getting pissed off
because they're sending emails.
but it's just their personality.
So you're not going to changesomeone, try to find the right
fit.
And we waited a year and a half
for Kyle to say yes to us.
We courted him like desperate
lovers and it worked out, but ittook a long time.
So the time horizon on hiring, Iwould say, be really quick to pull
people out of your system thataren't a fit because they can do a
(06:05):
lot of damage to your brand and toyour business.
I've made that mistake before.
but then also be patient for the
ones that are the right fit tocome around.
You both have made that mistakenow that I think of it.
both have made that mistake nowthat I think of it.
It comes down to...
Knowing their incentive too, like
what do they want?That will dictate how you pay
them.
Are they going to be straight up
salary?Do they like the comfort of
(06:26):
knowing how much money they havecoming in every month?
Or are they a bit more on the risktolerance side of things where
they want to grow and make moremoney and they're okay not having
that guaranteed paycheck comingin?
Then that'll give you a goodindicator of, okay, we pay a
certain percentage per close file.
Like there's different ways you
can structure.
the pay.
And I think you start with whatthat person wants and what you
want as well.
Yeah.
And just full transparency,because we always share what we
do.
We have flat fee for compliance.
(06:46):
And then when it comes to ourunderwriter, he has a guaranteed
base, but he gets a percentage ofevery file.
So hopefully he exceeds that baseto the moon, but he has that
protection if there ever were areally terrible year or when the
brokerage picks up more and wehave to pull more time out of
actively brokering.
he's still going to get paid for
managing the book and keepingthings on track that way.
Yeah, an example of a creativesolution that we had to come up
(07:08):
with, like, hey, our guy wants thecomfort of knowing how much he's
going to take home, but he alsodoes.
want incentive and motivation toearn more.
And that was the happy mediumbetween the two.
So many ways to skin a cat, asI've said here before on the
podcast.
I'm going to say it again.
Meow.
Meow.
All right.
Next question.
Quick hitter here.
A lot of you ask what CRM we use,
(07:31):
what CRM we recommend.
I feel like we've touched on this
one quite a bit.
That always tells me you don't
really listen.
No, I'm just kidding.
That question will forever be inthe mortgage space until the end
of time.
We'll be really quick on this one.
We aren't a...
Huge fan of CRMs.
We use a Google Sheet that thewhole team has access to.
We train on that within ourbrokerage as well because we think
(07:51):
it's really great.
If you love CRMs, our favorite
one.
is probably coming from Josh Misk
at BrokerEdge.
But like I said, we're a big
spreadsheet, guys.
Yeah, I will add to that.
If we were to go back, maybe wewould have the actual CRM to track
the renewals.
I know you are with past clients,
but whenever someone submits aFinmo app, they've got secondary
properties and all that shithappening.
And it's just nice knowing thatyou've got that list already.
(08:14):
queued up in brokerage.
We're kind of learning recently
that monos aren't being verycompetitive with rates right now.
So that's something that brokersshould be focusing on right now on
the renewal side of things.
Big banks, we look for refi
opportunities or advanced strategyopportunities, but we let those
slide for the most part.
But monos, it's fair game.
Yeah.
All right.
This is a big one.
It's come up a lot.
(08:35):
How do we feel about AI?How do we use it in our business?
And is it going to fucking killthe business eventually?
So let's just start with how wefeel about it.
I think we're on the same page.
We both really like AI.
I hate it.
No, you don't.
I use AI like all throughout myday.
Like I was up to like two in themorning last night.
I was sending you emails, I thinkat like 1 .30.
(08:57):
You didn't reply to me. 12 .45.
12 .45.
There you go.
That's not too bad.
Just showing you like.
AI readouts of reports I was going
through.
And I find it's a super beneficial
tool.
I really like it.
And that's specifically ChatGPTthat you're using, I'm assuming?
Yeah.
I don't know the other kinds.
No, I'm just kidding.
Yeah, I use mainly ChatGPT.
I do some of the image creationshit as well.
(09:18):
That's kind of the point I want tomake is there's so many different
tools with AI.
want to make is there's so many
different tools with AI.
And I think that's where brokers
really need to cut the line in thesand is use AI, but don't get
caught up so much on the newadvancements because literally
it's advancing every single day.
And there's all of these different
programs and tools and apps outthere that keep popping up.
I think like for me, at least, Ijust like to stay true to ChatGPT
(09:42):
because like it's tried and true.
It's been around since the start
and it keeps getting better andbetter.
And I built the habit of knowinghow to use it now.
So for me to switch to somethingelse, like another LLM or even
just something completelydifferent, I'm not going to
bother.
So I think AI is only as good as
you use it.
And I think that's the same
analogy for CRMs.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so we both like it.
Let's jump to how we use it in our
business.
So I use it a lot for analyzing
(10:04):
reports.
So we get like these massive
spreadsheet that shows likebrokerage, total volume, amount by
agent, amount by lender.
And I'm just like, okay, I only
care about a couple of data pointsin here.
I put the whole spreadsheet inthere and then like isolate these
data points.
Use it a lot for improving our
spreadsheets.
So like just creating custom cells
and little things like that.
A lot for researching ideas,
researching stuff for contentcreation, rewriting emails, making
me sound like less of a dick whenI'm in a bad mood, little things
(10:28):
like that.
Yeah, you need that.
that.
You need that 100%.
Thank God for AI.
Is that why there's a happy face
in an email yesterday?No, that was just me.
I was actually not in a bad moodat that time.
I agree with all of those.
That's what I use it for most
specifically on the social side ofthings, content creation.
And I just posted a videoyesterday that is popping off as
(10:49):
of right now.
And it's captured me at least 130
emails.
So I know that's going to keep
running.
And on top of the 500 or so emails
that I captured from social sincesay called two months ago, I'm now
creating a drip campaign.
And what I'm going to do is Use
ChatGPT to create a custom GPTthat is specific on knowing email
(11:12):
marketing.
to its full extent and just have
it for that reason.
Anytime I need to create an email,
I'm going to go into that customGPT.
It's going to help me structureemails with the thoughts that are
coming to my head.
I'm going to use chat GPT to help
me come up with ideas.
And I'll probably do to start 20
emails at a time.
And then once I have the drip
campaign built out, drop them allin there, send out once a week,
(11:33):
and then keep building on thatdrip campaign using that custom
GPT.
That's cool.
So can it learn from your previousemails as well too, right?
So you can say like, hey, we'vetalked about these.
20 things, like don't berepetitive, but like build off of
this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like what I'm going to do there
is not so much like from the emailfront, but more so I'm going to
(11:56):
feed it transcripts from videos ofsocial media.
I'm going to tell it to do deepresearch on all of the advanced
mortgage strategies and just learnit.
And the more you feed it, thebetter it is in the custom GPT.
So I'm just going to dump all ofmy transcripts from even like Loom
videos that I recorded so it couldunderstand how I speak.
Cool.
Finally here, how do we feel?
AI is going to impact theindustry.
This is something when AI wascoming out, you were like, we're
(12:18):
fucked.
We're fucked, man.
I said that?Yeah, you said that.
And I was like, dude, it's goingto take a while.
Don't worry.
At the Canva event that I went to
recently, there was a panel andRon Butler was up there.
That guy's always in a good mood,has the most eloquent way of
speaking.
Definitely would want him around
my kids.
He was sharing his really positive
outlook on AI.
that like three to five years, the
A side is going to be fucked, butthe B side has a 10 year time
(12:41):
horizon to it just because of thecomplexity of the files.
So interesting on the A side is hejust said like the banks are
working so much on it already.
They're going to end up doing a
bunch of layoffs, et cetera, etcetera.
And I was like, yes, okay.
Parts of this, I agree.
We just talked about fulfillment.
I think fulfillment probably will
eventually be erased by AI.
That's a pretty easy one.
But where I think he missed themark there is he didn't go into
(13:04):
the advanced mortgage strategiesat all.
And I know he's always blastingthem on TikTok and calling out
guys like Zach LaFreda who arebeauties.
I think he's missing that justbecause he's so stuck in his ways
a little bit that he's missing theopportunity for the A side there.
And I think there's a longerrunway on that side.
Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm doom andgloom about it.
I'm usually pretty positive likewith most things, but I will say
like I am a bit more on thenegative side of things just
(13:26):
because like there is a lot ofunknown and I'm already seeing
like, I mean, this could be abyproduct of the market itself,
but like.
I feel like banks are getting more
of the market share of the lastcouple of years.
And we're all seeing that withcompetitive rates and all that.
So that's one angle.
The second angle is AI is
developing so damn fast thatpeople will start to be more
(13:46):
comfortable using AI to make theirdaily decisions, even when it
comes to their mortgage.
People are going to trust LLMs
like ChatGPT to make theirdecisions.
That's my personal opinion.
But I do agree that I think the
advanced mortgage strategies...
That is going to take some time
for AI to replace that sort ofthing because people aren't going
to want to implement the SmithManeuver, the cash damming, debt
(14:08):
swap.
They're not going to want to
implement these things on theirown without having someone there
to consult them.
So I think that is here for the
long term, 10 years plus, but wecould be sitting here 15 years
from now and we could be sayinglike, oh, remember the time we
thought that we're going to beextended 10 years?
Who knows?Yeah.
And like also the thing toconsider is like, What's your time
horizon?What are you looking for in the
(14:28):
business?Obviously, we're building a
brokerage.
So if we felt like the industry
was going to be fucked in threeyears, would we waste our time
building a brokerage?No, we wouldn't.
I think there's going to still bea lot of opportunity for brokers
and a lot of value that we canprovide to people, provided that
we learn and we evolve with AI asa tool and we implement into our
business and we grow and scalewith it.
(14:50):
You know, the banks are going towork on something that's very
focused on the bank's products.
We can use AI and build different
things out that's going to bebeneficial to our business.
And we should.
And I know it seems daunting to do
these things, but like literallyhow I'm doing it, it was like my
daughter is learning to read,learning to read for a while, but
she's kind of struggling with herreading.
So I have like a reading game.
(15:12):
on your iPad.
We're going to read physicalbooks.
You have these little like takehome things from school.
You're going to get someadditional coaching and support.
That's exactly how I'm approachingmy learning towards my business.
Like I'm doing some YouTube video.
Like we just went to a training in
Whistler with some AI.
So getting that element of
coaching, I'm doing my own likedaily reading or like daily
research.
on my side of things.
And then I'm just playing aroundwith a few little games and doing
(15:33):
fun things with it.
So I'm getting more comfortable in
that AI space.
So it's not daunting to me
anymore.
It's not something that I'm an
expert in.
And there's a lot I don't know.
But every time I engage with it, Ifigure out something else that I
can put into my business.
And that's how I'm going to grow
and evolve with AI.
The thing I think is going to
(15:55):
happen is the amount of mortgagebrokers and agents there are in
Canada, that number is going toshrink.
drastically over the years.
But the ones that stick around,
they're going to have the marketshare for people that do want to
use a mortgage broker.
And the business model might be
different.
It might not be as straightforward
as it is.
Hey, you need a mortgage.
Okay, cool.
Here's your A lender options.
Pick which one you want to gowith.
(16:15):
Away you go.
It's going to start converting
over to that.
consulting side of things where
you're consulting them on likewhat the best options are for
their specific situation and kindof like the same model as like a
fee for service financial planner,but on the mortgage side, I think
that's how things might startplaying out.
Then you're always going to havethe being private long -term,
(16:35):
maybe 10 years plus, like Ronsaid, maybe it's going to be
longer.
Of course, you've got the advanced
strategies that I think will bearound for a while.
Totally.
To your point about there being
less agents, I can see a trendcoming in with a lot of the
education and differentrequirements that are coming in
that eventually the mortgage agentcourse won't be as much of a joke
as it is today to get started.
It'll be more of like a college
(16:56):
course or a university levelcourse.
That'll automatically cut.
out a lot of people.
You also have an older demographicthat's still brokers who with like
different compliance regulationsand things like that, every time
there's a change, more of themdrop off.
So you're going to see some peopledrop off there.
I think you'll see a consolidationwhere banks expected volumes,
things like that.
Small brokerages are going to go
out the wayside.
You're going to see some more
consolidation into bigger playersand joining supergroups like Tango
because of the upside and the hugeadvantage that it provides both on
(17:18):
a team level.
to the individual brokers
themselves.
I think when there's a lot of
things going against you, thinkwhen there's a lot of things going
against you, there's alwaysopportunity.
And I think that opportunity islike, if you're the last man
standing, like you're going tohave business and things are going
to go well for you.
And maybe you don't need a 30 year
career.
Maybe you just crush it for the
next five to 10 years and be smartwith your money.
And you've got that piggy bank,you hit your FI goal and away you
(17:41):
go.
Boom.
Love it.
All right.
How to grow a beard.
Get that one a lot.
I will say you did grow thatfucking fast, man.
Yeah, I did.
Oh, I looked awful without it.
You got to lose the hair on yourhead.
Sacrifice the gods for it to comeout of your face.
That's the only way.
Amen.
Okay.
Jokes aside, we get this one a
lot.
What's the deal with Tango?
(18:02):
Do you guys still broker?Why are people coming to Tango?
We'll be quick hitter on this.
We still broker.
Still how we get paid.
We're not really making money off
Tango at this phase where it'svery much in a startup growth kind
of mode for us.
The deal with Tango and the value
we're bringing.
to the market is helping brokers
earn more and pay less.
So we have a broker, a few of them
(18:24):
actually, they were like $10million producers last year.
They've already hit 10 millionthis year and they're projected to
hit 30 million plus.
What we're doing to save the money
out the gates is we don't nickeland dime our brokers like everyone
else.
We don't charge for credit pulls.
We give an insane tech package.
And we do all of this for $150 a
month.
We also are very generous with our
splits.
We share every dollar that comes
from the lenders, including thingslike the Scotia scorecard, which
if you haven't heard of that, it'sprobably because your brokerage
(18:44):
doesn't give you it.
So we're very generous with...
that money.
Training wise, we do a daily
training and prospecting togetherfrom 10 to 11 every morning.
So there's that community and teamelement that in a lonely world of
brokering, a lot of peopleappreciate.
So I think the combination ofthese couple of factors and Tom,
feel free to jump in is sort ofwhat's the deal with Tango and why
people are coming, but I'll leaveit there.
Amen.
leave it there.
That was perfect.
I think the only thing I'll add to
(19:05):
that is people do often getconfused.
Like is Tango a network?It's not, it's a brokerage, but we
have sub brokerages.
that fall underneath Tango.
And that's the really cool part isyou can fall directly under Tango
as an individual agent.
A lot of agents are.
And then you also have agents thatcan fall underneath sub brokerages
or teams within Tango that havetheir own specific offers that
really piggyback off of what Tangois already offering.
(19:27):
So that's where people getconfused.
Like, oh, there's this team here,there's this team here, but
they're technically under Tango.
That's how we're structured.
And it kind of, it's nice becauseone person might be into having
like done for you services.
One person might need that more of
like the handhold.
a mentorship and one person might
want more of the advancedstrategies like we offer all of
(19:48):
those things at tango totally allright uh if you guys have more
questions shoot us a dm either oncommission breath or if you want
fast response to our personal onesor email whatever we're easy peasy
lemon squeezy have a great weekand we'll catch you soon cheers
all right uh if you guys have morequestions shoot us a dm either on
commission breath or if you wantfast response to our personal ones
(20:09):
or email whatever we're easy peasylemon squeezy have a great week
and we'll catch you soon cheers
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of
Commission Breath.
Brandon Love here with Tom
Moffitt.
And today we are going to do
probably not rapid fire becausewe're more easy does it kind of
pace guys, but we're going to firethrough a bunch of questions that
we get frequently asked byCommission Breath listeners in
person, on social media, viaemail, etc. We hear you.
We usually try to give you apretty good response, but some of
(00:22):
these come up quite often.
So we're just going to do a deep
dive into those today.
Yeah, we've been guilty of not
answering our commission breathInstagram.
been guilty of not answering ourcommission breath Instagram.
So if you want to ask usquestions, do it to our personal
Instagram, because we're notalways on the commission breath
one.
But why don't you start us off
with question number one, buddy?Yeah, so a question I get a lot
from people is, how do I know whenis the right time to hire?
(00:44):
And how should I structure myhiring?
So my honest opinion, honestopinion, you can lump this into
hiring, but I would getfulfillment right away.
Because there's fulfillment.
models out there where you're
paying per file.
Sure, you're taking a cut per
file.
But if you can pay $400 to $500
per file, and you're taking halfthe amount of load off of your
(01:04):
play for each file, it's 100 %worth it.
That's my take is like right away,higher fulfillment.
That's the first piece that youshould be hiring for.
Yeah, I think even if you're a $5million producer.
that's something you should hirefor.
I know that seems like you'regiving up a large portion of your
income at that point, but you'rebuying back so much time that you
can pour into prospecting.
So that's the first one I would
(01:24):
do.
And there are so many people, like
we have probably four peoplewithin Tango who offer these
services to agents.
And it's typically in that $400 to
$500 range.
They do all the document
submission to the lender.
They put together your signing
package.
They do all the compliance.
So it's literally done for you.
You just focus on client
nurturing, finding new clients,expanding your prospecting,
marketing, et cetera.
(01:45):
All those other hats you still
have to wear in the business, butit takes a big chunk off your
plate.
The other thing here too is like,
you might say, hey, I'm reallygood at it or it doesn't take me
that much time.
I said, great, but are you going
to be the $50 million producerwho's really good at doing their
own compliance?Probably not.
It's something you eventually haveto get off your plate.
So get it off early and just moveon to the next thing.
(02:07):
Yeah.
And there's a counter argument
that you should learn how to dothe signing packages and fulfill
conditions, which I get, maybe doit for your first 10 files, learn
how to satisfy down payment.
But like, honestly, man, I haven't
done it in like maybe three yearsnow.
I wouldn't even be able to do thattoday.
Satisfy down payment with bankstatements and gift letters and
all that.
And any questions I have from
clients, I always just say, Hey,like ask Diana, she is the
(02:29):
specialist when it comes to this.
In my eyes, you don't even really
need to have to do your first timedoing it, but there is that
argument.
And I do say like right away,
specifically for the reason thatmost people entering mortgage
brokering as an agent or broker,they are working full -time still
with their full -time job.
So you almost need to have that
fulfillment while you're at workto fulfill those conditions,
right?Yeah, that's a great point.
If you plan on doing... like thisas a part -time gig, it will
(02:53):
eventually become full -time ifyou're good at it because it takes
up so much time.
But having that fulfillment does
buy you a little bit of runway.
The next big hire that people
usually look at is an underwriter.
And underwriting hiring is really
tricky because there's people thatare fantastic underwriters, people
are terrible underwriters, buteveryone kind of thinks they're a
good underwriter.
There's also an issue where your
work ethic and what you put intoyour business might vary wildly
(03:17):
from an underwriter who feels thattheir job is just a straight nine
to five.
When you're hiring an underwriter,
it's about determining, is this agood underwriter first off?
So have a few sample files fromyour past files that you know
maybe were a little bit tricky.
Ask them, how would you handle
this?What would you do differently?
(03:39):
What's the hardest file you'veworked on?
Things like that nature.
But then also say, what is your
expectations for a workday?If a client calls me on... a
thursday night or something theywant to go live on a file i know
my underwriter kyle is going torespond to my text if i have a
quick question on the flip side ifhe weren't going to respond until
friday then all of a sudden i'mjumping back into the file trying
(04:00):
to figure out what he's done goingback to that client wasting a
bunch of time at which point iwouldn't feel that great about
giving up a big chunk of my myearnings to him like the actual
position of underwriting positionof underwriting It's skewed in
many different ways because a lotof people think like I'm going to
hire an underwriter and then Ihave all of this load off my
plate.
It depends on the person you're
hiring.
Traditional underwriters, their
mindset is they just want to bebehind the scenes, plugging away
(04:22):
and do the actual underwriting andnot be client facing.
So you really want to distinguishwhat is that role for that person?
Are they going to be a hybridwhere they're doing the
underwriting and the client facingactivities?
Or do you just want to have themdo the underwriting and you're
still the face of the brand andtalking to the client?
So you really got to define whatthat role is.
And lucky for us, we did find.
that hybrid person in Kyle that is
(04:42):
really good with clients and knowshow to underwrite really well as
well, which is kind of a diamondin the rough, to be honest.
Like, I think if you're going tohire an underwriter, you're
probably going to be easier offfinding a straight up underwriter.
And then from there, as you getbusier, maybe you do hire that
person that's like client facingthat does the initial upfront
discovery call and is more of thatlike juggernaut salesperson.
Exactly.
And just to add to that point, to
(05:02):
add to that point, when it comesto hiring, be really cautious
about accepting who you are.
hire for who they are and what
their skills are.
People have room to grow, but
you're not going to turn someonewho's very introverted and
reserved and nervous talking topeople into that fantastic
outgoing salesperson that you maywant.
Be mindful of who they are as anindividual.
That doesn't mean they're not theright fit for you, but they might
have a role that's very definedand specific.
(05:23):
And then you might have to findthat supporting cast elsewhere.
A lot of the failures I see ispeople say, I want this person to
be like very outgoing, followingup with my clients, doing calls,
being proactive in spaces wherethat person is actually really
anxious and likes to hide behindtheir keyboard and is just going
(05:43):
to send emails.
And then you're getting pissed off
because they're sending emails.
but it's just their personality.
So you're not going to changesomeone, try to find the right
fit.
And we waited a year and a half
for Kyle to say yes to us.
We courted him like desperate
lovers and it worked out, but ittook a long time.
So the time horizon on hiring, Iwould say, be really quick to pull
people out of your system thataren't a fit because they can do a
(06:05):
lot of damage to your brand and toyour business.
I've made that mistake before.
but then also be patient for the
ones that are the right fit tocome around.
You both have made that mistakenow that I think of it.
both have made that mistake nowthat I think of it.
It comes down to...
Knowing their incentive too, like
what do they want?That will dictate how you pay
them.
Are they going to be straight up
salary?Do they like the comfort of
(06:26):
knowing how much money they havecoming in every month?
Or are they a bit more on the risktolerance side of things where
they want to grow and make moremoney and they're okay not having
that guaranteed paycheck comingin?
Then that'll give you a goodindicator of, okay, we pay a
certain percentage per close file.
Like there's different ways you
can structure.
the pay.
And I think you start with whatthat person wants and what you
want as well.
Yeah.
And just full transparency,because we always share what we
do.
We have flat fee for compliance.
(06:46):
And then when it comes to ourunderwriter, he has a guaranteed
base, but he gets a percentage ofevery file.
So hopefully he exceeds that baseto the moon, but he has that
protection if there ever were areally terrible year or when the
brokerage picks up more and wehave to pull more time out of
actively brokering.
he's still going to get paid for
managing the book and keepingthings on track that way.
Yeah, an example of a creativesolution that we had to come up
(07:08):
with, like, hey, our guy wants thecomfort of knowing how much he's
going to take home, but he alsodoes.
want incentive and motivation toearn more.
And that was the happy mediumbetween the two.
So many ways to skin a cat, asI've said here before on the
podcast.
I'm going to say it again.
Meow.
Meow.
All right.
Next question.
Quick hitter here.
A lot of you ask what CRM we use,
(07:31):
what CRM we recommend.
I feel like we've touched on this
one quite a bit.
That always tells me you don't
really listen.
No, I'm just kidding.
That question will forever be inthe mortgage space until the end
of time.
We'll be really quick on this one.
We aren't a...
Huge fan of CRMs.
We use a Google Sheet that thewhole team has access to.
We train on that within ourbrokerage as well because we think
(07:51):
it's really great.
If you love CRMs, our favorite
one.
is probably coming from Josh Misk
at BrokerEdge.
But like I said, we're a big
spreadsheet, guys.
Yeah, I will add to that.
If we were to go back, maybe wewould have the actual CRM to track
the renewals.
I know you are with past clients,
but whenever someone submits aFinmo app, they've got secondary
properties and all that shithappening.
And it's just nice knowing thatyou've got that list already.
(08:14):
queued up in brokerage.
We're kind of learning recently
that monos aren't being verycompetitive with rates right now.
So that's something that brokersshould be focusing on right now on
the renewal side of things.
Big banks, we look for refi
opportunities or advanced strategyopportunities, but we let those
slide for the most part.
But monos, it's fair game.
Yeah.
All right.
This is a big one.
It's come up a lot.
(08:35):
How do we feel about AI?How do we use it in our business?
And is it going to fucking killthe business eventually?
So let's just start with how wefeel about it.
I think we're on the same page.
We both really like AI.
I hate it.
No, you don't.
I use AI like all throughout myday.
Like I was up to like two in themorning last night.
I was sending you emails, I thinkat like 1 .30.
(08:57):
You didn't reply to me. 12 .45.
12 .45.
There you go.
That's not too bad.
Just showing you like.
AI readouts of reports I was going
through.
And I find it's a super beneficial
tool.
I really like it.
And that's specifically ChatGPTthat you're using, I'm assuming?
Yeah.
I don't know the other kinds.
No, I'm just kidding.
Yeah, I use mainly ChatGPT.
I do some of the image creationshit as well.
(09:18):
That's kind of the point I want tomake is there's so many different
tools with AI.
want to make is there's so many
different tools with AI.
And I think that's where brokers
really need to cut the line in thesand is use AI, but don't get
caught up so much on the newadvancements because literally
it's advancing every single day.
And there's all of these different
programs and tools and apps outthere that keep popping up.
I think like for me, at least, Ijust like to stay true to ChatGPT
(09:42):
because like it's tried and true.
It's been around since the start
and it keeps getting better andbetter.
And I built the habit of knowinghow to use it now.
So for me to switch to somethingelse, like another LLM or even
just something completelydifferent, I'm not going to
bother.
So I think AI is only as good as
you use it.
And I think that's the same
analogy for CRMs.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so we both like it.
Let's jump to how we use it in our
business.
So I use it a lot for analyzing
(10:04):
reports.
So we get like these massive
spreadsheet that shows likebrokerage, total volume, amount by
agent, amount by lender.
And I'm just like, okay, I only
care about a couple of data pointsin here.
I put the whole spreadsheet inthere and then like isolate these
data points.
Use it a lot for improving our
spreadsheets.
So like just creating custom cells
and little things like that.
A lot for researching ideas,
researching stuff for contentcreation, rewriting emails, making
me sound like less of a dick whenI'm in a bad mood, little things
(10:28):
like that.
Yeah, you need that.
that.
You need that 100%.
Thank God for AI.
Is that why there's a happy face
in an email yesterday?No, that was just me.
I was actually not in a bad moodat that time.
I agree with all of those.
That's what I use it for most
specifically on the social side ofthings, content creation.
And I just posted a videoyesterday that is popping off as
(10:49):
of right now.
And it's captured me at least 130
emails.
So I know that's going to keep
running.
And on top of the 500 or so emails
that I captured from social sincesay called two months ago, I'm now
creating a drip campaign.
And what I'm going to do is Use
ChatGPT to create a custom GPTthat is specific on knowing email
(11:12):
marketing.
to its full extent and just have
it for that reason.
Anytime I need to create an email,
I'm going to go into that customGPT.
It's going to help me structureemails with the thoughts that are
coming to my head.
I'm going to use chat GPT to help
me come up with ideas.
And I'll probably do to start 20
emails at a time.
And then once I have the drip
campaign built out, drop them allin there, send out once a week,
(11:33):
and then keep building on thatdrip campaign using that custom
GPT.
That's cool.
So can it learn from your previousemails as well too, right?
So you can say like, hey, we'vetalked about these.
20 things, like don't berepetitive, but like build off of
this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like what I'm going to do there
is not so much like from the emailfront, but more so I'm going to
(11:56):
feed it transcripts from videos ofsocial media.
I'm going to tell it to do deepresearch on all of the advanced
mortgage strategies and just learnit.
And the more you feed it, thebetter it is in the custom GPT.
So I'm just going to dump all ofmy transcripts from even like Loom
videos that I recorded so it couldunderstand how I speak.
Cool.
Finally here, how do we feel?
AI is going to impact theindustry.
This is something when AI wascoming out, you were like, we're
(12:18):
fucked.
We're fucked, man.
I said that?Yeah, you said that.
And I was like, dude, it's goingto take a while.
Don't worry.
At the Canva event that I went to
recently, there was a panel andRon Butler was up there.
That guy's always in a good mood,has the most eloquent way of
speaking.
Definitely would want him around
my kids.
He was sharing his really positive
outlook on AI.
that like three to five years, the
A side is going to be fucked, butthe B side has a 10 year time
(12:41):
horizon to it just because of thecomplexity of the files.
So interesting on the A side is hejust said like the banks are
working so much on it already.
They're going to end up doing a
bunch of layoffs, et cetera, etcetera.
And I was like, yes, okay.
Parts of this, I agree.
We just talked about fulfillment.
I think fulfillment probably will
eventually be erased by AI.
That's a pretty easy one.
But where I think he missed themark there is he didn't go into
(13:04):
the advanced mortgage strategiesat all.
And I know he's always blastingthem on TikTok and calling out
guys like Zach LaFreda who arebeauties.
I think he's missing that justbecause he's so stuck in his ways
a little bit that he's missing theopportunity for the A side there.
And I think there's a longerrunway on that side.
Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm doom andgloom about it.
I'm usually pretty positive likewith most things, but I will say
like I am a bit more on thenegative side of things just
(13:26):
because like there is a lot ofunknown and I'm already seeing
like, I mean, this could be abyproduct of the market itself,
but like.
I feel like banks are getting more
of the market share of the lastcouple of years.
And we're all seeing that withcompetitive rates and all that.
So that's one angle.
The second angle is AI is
developing so damn fast thatpeople will start to be more
(13:46):
comfortable using AI to make theirdaily decisions, even when it
comes to their mortgage.
People are going to trust LLMs
like ChatGPT to make theirdecisions.
That's my personal opinion.
But I do agree that I think the
advanced mortgage strategies...
That is going to take some time
for AI to replace that sort ofthing because people aren't going
to want to implement the SmithManeuver, the cash damming, debt
(14:08):
swap.
They're not going to want to
implement these things on theirown without having someone there
to consult them.
So I think that is here for the
long term, 10 years plus, but wecould be sitting here 15 years
from now and we could be sayinglike, oh, remember the time we
thought that we're going to beextended 10 years?
Who knows?Yeah.
And like also the thing toconsider is like, What's your time
horizon?What are you looking for in the
(14:28):
business?Obviously, we're building a
brokerage.
So if we felt like the industry
was going to be fucked in threeyears, would we waste our time
building a brokerage?No, we wouldn't.
I think there's going to still bea lot of opportunity for brokers
and a lot of value that we canprovide to people, provided that
we learn and we evolve with AI asa tool and we implement into our
business and we grow and scalewith it.
(14:50):
You know, the banks are going towork on something that's very
focused on the bank's products.
We can use AI and build different
things out that's going to bebeneficial to our business.
And we should.
And I know it seems daunting to do
these things, but like literallyhow I'm doing it, it was like my
daughter is learning to read,learning to read for a while, but
she's kind of struggling with herreading.
So I have like a reading game.
(15:12):
on your iPad.
We're going to read physicalbooks.
You have these little like takehome things from school.
You're going to get someadditional coaching and support.
That's exactly how I'm approachingmy learning towards my business.
Like I'm doing some YouTube video.
Like we just went to a training in
Whistler with some AI.
So getting that element of
coaching, I'm doing my own likedaily reading or like daily
research.
on my side of things.
And then I'm just playing aroundwith a few little games and doing
(15:33):
fun things with it.
So I'm getting more comfortable in
that AI space.
So it's not daunting to me
anymore.
It's not something that I'm an
expert in.
And there's a lot I don't know.
But every time I engage with it, Ifigure out something else that I
can put into my business.
And that's how I'm going to grow
and evolve with AI.
The thing I think is going to
(15:55):
happen is the amount of mortgagebrokers and agents there are in
Canada, that number is going toshrink.
drastically over the years.
But the ones that stick around,
they're going to have the marketshare for people that do want to
use a mortgage broker.
And the business model might be
different.
It might not be as straightforward
as it is.
Hey, you need a mortgage.
Okay, cool.
Here's your A lender options.
Pick which one you want to gowith.
(16:15):
Away you go.
It's going to start converting
over to that.
consulting side of things where
you're consulting them on likewhat the best options are for
their specific situation and kindof like the same model as like a
fee for service financial planner,but on the mortgage side, I think
that's how things might startplaying out.
Then you're always going to havethe being private long -term,
(16:35):
maybe 10 years plus, like Ronsaid, maybe it's going to be
longer.
Of course, you've got the advanced
strategies that I think will bearound for a while.
Totally.
To your point about there being
less agents, I can see a trendcoming in with a lot of the
education and differentrequirements that are coming in
that eventually the mortgage agentcourse won't be as much of a joke
as it is today to get started.
It'll be more of like a college
(16:56):
course or a university levelcourse.
That'll automatically cut.
out a lot of people.
You also have an older demographicthat's still brokers who with like
different compliance regulationsand things like that, every time
there's a change, more of themdrop off.
So you're going to see some peopledrop off there.
I think you'll see a consolidationwhere banks expected volumes,
things like that.
Small brokerages are going to go
out the wayside.
You're going to see some more
consolidation into bigger playersand joining supergroups like Tango
because of the upside and the hugeadvantage that it provides both on
(17:18):
a team level.
to the individual brokers
themselves.
I think when there's a lot of
things going against you, thinkwhen there's a lot of things going
against you, there's alwaysopportunity.
And I think that opportunity islike, if you're the last man
standing, like you're going tohave business and things are going
to go well for you.
And maybe you don't need a 30 year
career.
Maybe you just crush it for the
next five to 10 years and be smartwith your money.
And you've got that piggy bank,you hit your FI goal and away you
(17:41):
go.
Boom.
Love it.
All right.
How to grow a beard.
Get that one a lot.
I will say you did grow thatfucking fast, man.
Yeah, I did.
Oh, I looked awful without it.
You got to lose the hair on yourhead.
Sacrifice the gods for it to comeout of your face.
That's the only way.
Amen.
Okay.
Jokes aside, we get this one a
lot.
What's the deal with Tango?
(18:02):
Do you guys still broker?Why are people coming to Tango?
We'll be quick hitter on this.
We still broker.
Still how we get paid.
We're not really making money off
Tango at this phase where it'svery much in a startup growth kind
of mode for us.
The deal with Tango and the value
we're bringing.
to the market is helping brokers
earn more and pay less.
So we have a broker, a few of them
(18:24):
actually, they were like $10million producers last year.
They've already hit 10 millionthis year and they're projected to
hit 30 million plus.
What we're doing to save the money
out the gates is we don't nickeland dime our brokers like everyone
else.
We don't charge for credit pulls.
We give an insane tech package.
And we do all of this for $150 a
month.
We also are very generous with our
splits.
We share every dollar that comes
from the lenders, including thingslike the Scotia scorecard, which
if you haven't heard of that, it'sprobably because your brokerage
(18:44):
doesn't give you it.
So we're very generous with...
that money.
Training wise, we do a daily
training and prospecting togetherfrom 10 to 11 every morning.
So there's that community and teamelement that in a lonely world of
brokering, a lot of peopleappreciate.
So I think the combination ofthese couple of factors and Tom,
feel free to jump in is sort ofwhat's the deal with Tango and why
people are coming, but I'll leaveit there.
Amen.
leave it there.
That was perfect.
I think the only thing I'll add to
(19:05):
that is people do often getconfused.
Like is Tango a network?It's not, it's a brokerage, but we
have sub brokerages.
that fall underneath Tango.
And that's the really cool part isyou can fall directly under Tango
as an individual agent.
A lot of agents are.
And then you also have agents thatcan fall underneath sub brokerages
or teams within Tango that havetheir own specific offers that
really piggyback off of what Tangois already offering.
(19:27):
So that's where people getconfused.
Like, oh, there's this team here,there's this team here, but
they're technically under Tango.
That's how we're structured.
And it kind of, it's nice becauseone person might be into having
like done for you services.
One person might need that more of
like the handhold.
a mentorship and one person might
want more of the advancedstrategies like we offer all of
(19:48):
those things at tango totally allright uh if you guys have more
questions shoot us a dm either oncommission breath or if you want
fast response to our personal onesor email whatever we're easy peasy
lemon squeezy have a great weekand we'll catch you soon cheers
all right uh if you guys have morequestions shoot us a dm either on
commission breath or if you wantfast response to our personal ones
(20:09):
or email whatever we're easy peasylemon squeezy have a great week
and we'll catch you soon cheers
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