October 27, 2022 • 37 mins
Read More at https://gettherapybirmingham.com/blog/
Brainspotting is not a scam! It is an incredibly effective evidence based practice. I try to make videos about the most common phone calls we get at Taproot Therapy Collective. One of the calls that I get is that Brainspotting with a clinician in a another state or country just isn't working. There are thousands of BSP techniques. Patient's call because there clinician is not doing what I do in my videos, and that is fine! One of my favorite things about the BSP approach is that it is so open ended. I think that all of that freedom can be little overwhelming to new BSP clinicians. Especially clinicians coming from EMDR backgrounds. If you are a patient or a clinician having trouble processing with BSP these are some suggestions to help the process along. #Brainspotting #trauma #dualatunement #chaostheory #uncertaintyprinciple #EMDR #tailofthecomet #EMDR #therapy #PTSD #psychotherapy #cptsd #mbti #did
More resources @ https://gettherapybirmingham.com
Website: https://gettherapybirmingham.com/ Check out the youtube: https://youtube.com/@GetTherapyBirminghamPodcast Website: https://gettherapybirmingham.podbean.com/ Podcast Feed: https://feed.podbean.com/GetTherapyBirmingham/feed.xml Taproot Therapy Collective 2025 Shady Crest Drive | Hoover, Alabama 35216 Phone: (205) 598-6471 Fax: (205) 634-3647 Email: Admin@GetTherapyBirmingham.com The resources, videos and podcasts on our site and social media are no substitute for mental health treatment. Please find a qualified mental health provider and contact emergency services in your area in the event of an emergency to a provider in your area. Our number and email are only for scheduling at Taproot Therapy Collective are not monitored consistently and not a reliable resource for emergency services.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
hey guys it's Joel and this is a video
about what to do if brain spawning does
not work I talk about brain spotting a
whole lot a lot of people are into it
and then they come and try and get the
brain spotting because they've seen some
of the videos or content about trauma
and the different approaches to
(00:21):
treat trauma on our website uh so just
so you'll know I'm only licensed to
practice in Alabama and I'm in
Birmingham Alabama which is a lot of
drive from some places even in Alabama
but I cannot see you if you're out of
state I don't see anyone via teletherapy
and some therapists at Taproot do uh
Sarah Smith does uh and Christy wood
(00:43):
does but I also
I'm happy to talk to you I'm happy to uh
point you in the right direction for
where you can get uh resources to help
trauma wherever you are or tell you what
to look for in a clinician or find
people and I do that all the time but a
lot of people call from out of state
when they see these and they ask for how
to get parade spotting I can't see uh
(01:04):
out of state unfortunately
um but
uh also a lot of people come and they
the really the most common question that
we get is I saw your resources brain
spotting sounded super cool and I went
to do brain spotting and when I did it
didn't work or I wasn't sure if I was
doing it right and the therapist is
doing stuff that is not what you did
(01:25):
they're just kind of holding the pointer
um and so I I get that phone call a lot
uh and I talk to people and I'm happy to
do that but I made a video so that maybe
uh this will help therapists who are you
know getting going with brain spotting I
have some new technique and approach and
also or just a different perspective
women also patients who are trying to
(01:47):
figure out uh if brain spotting is right
for them if it's being done right or if
it's not a good fit or they need to talk
to their therapists more so the big
thing is like communicate with your
therapist if you don't think something's
working if you need more guidance you
know whatever
tell them
um I don't know if I'm doing this right
um so the big question is like am I
doing brain spotting right uh there's
not a right way to do it
(02:08):
but the things that are going to
interfere with the processes working is
you thinking
so everyone does this but you'll have
these protective parts that pop up
somebody say like
you know who what is this how does this
work is this working am I doing it right
what is he thinking
um all of that stuff and everyone has
(02:29):
those some people have more of them as a
protective part that's going to rev up a
whole lot more
and the thing that you want to do is not
try and just like when you're meditating
the thing is to not kill them or try and
get rid of them because then they'll
overwhelm you and you can't it's to
notice it okay I'm wondering what the
therapist is thinking and then come back
to the body okay because the goal with
(02:51):
brain spotting is to get into the mid
and the subcortical Brain that's where
the processing happens and a lot of
other therapy things too this is
relevant to other approaches uh they
treat trauma but to get there you have
to be feeling your body it is a
different kind of thinking and it's why
over time you get better at doing brain
spawning because you're you're just
(03:12):
learning how to turn on that kind of
felt intuitive sense that a lot of
people uh are not good at because we
have to give up our ego in a lot of our
protective Parts in order to get into
that
um and so that's why you go deeper and
deeper in successively you know with
brain spotting like a lot of times
people are kind of scratching the
surface for a little bit and the next
session they go further in and then you
(03:32):
go really deep in and you maybe lose
time and think that 25 minutes you were
under took you know five minutes or
something those deeper processing
moments are usually going to happen
further on because you're learning your
brain is learning how to feel this way
and it you know if you want to look at
an mbti there are Myers-Briggs type test
there are certain kinds of things that
(03:53):
most people who are going to have a hard
time not getting into their head with
brain spotting they're going to score
very low on that part and then as they
slowly do more brain spawning I've
actually done this then you'll notice
that you know thinking as something
comes down my score is not way high
there feeling and intuition usually go
up
um usually a way to be more of a
(04:16):
perceiver less of a judger is going to
um your score is going to change and you
you're teaching your brain to think in a
different way so
one of the things that people say when
they come in is hey my therapist like
held the pointer like this and they were
like what do you feel here what do you
feel here what do you feel here and I
(04:37):
was like nothing nothing nothing or I
don't know my back kind of hurts you
know there wasn't anything that was
dramatic that was happening and that's
how they train you to do brain spawning
in Phase One
um when the people call and they say
like Hey how do I go to Deuce therapy
with somebody who's doing this the way
that you do and talk about it I don't
know there's certain things I can look
(04:57):
for but the short answer is like
probably nobody does unless you're one
of the people who works for Taproot that
has worked with me or is in supervision
with me which you're welcome to do if
you would like to I actually can do that
out of state I can't legally supervise
you in another uh state but I can uh do
training online and I can also uh if you
want one of the things we do is work
(05:18):
with you for a couple years before you
come to Taproot to help take you into
private practice do supervision with
people and that's a good way to learn
trauma
treatment but when you have a therapist
that's going like you know what do you
feel here what do you feel here what do
you feel here and you're like I don't
know I'm not sure what to do and they're
not really giving you a lot of guidance
and you're being like
am I doing it right whatever and they're
(05:40):
like no just keep feeling just keep
feeling
that is the way that they're trained in
phase one and I came to brain spawning a
little bit differently I was an EMDR
clinician so you're moving the eye
during EMDR I didn't agree with all of
the EMDR scripting so I had my own and
what I did is I had a trauma map and the
trauma map was how we mapped how does
this trauma want to move you you know
(06:01):
when you feel the bad feeling what does
your spine want to do what do you notice
in your body you know what are the
protective parts that pop up in your
thinking and cognition how do your
fingers want to move do you want to curl
up into a ball and hide something do you
want to just let go and sink into the
carpet do you want to stand up and fight
you know when I feel trapped when I feel
sad when I feel whatever the the feeling
(06:21):
I can't feel is what does it do to my
body how does it want me to move me and
I'd have people actually move and would
do the EMDR
and while I was doing that I started
noticing that the pupil in the eye kind
of jumped over a spot like people are
trying to track my eye you know my
finger with their eye and then they
would see like the people kind of like
whoop jump over these spots where it
(06:42):
didn't want to be unconsciously because
you know it's moving quickly people
aren't doing that consciously it's just
an involuntary movement and so I started
moving my fingers to that spot while
we're doing the trauma map and then
people would dissociate they would go
like way deep into processing because I
work with very complex trauma patients
and so patients liked this and they were
requesting it and they were saying this
works better than CBT or EMDR or
(07:03):
whatever but I didn't really know what I
was doing
um and some patients were experiencing
like repressed memories like things that
parts of a traumatic event that they
hadn't remembered before or on different
you know parts and I noticed that the
the z-axis was really important too like
not just left and right but how far or
up and down but how far back was I and
sometimes if I hit a spot then I would
(07:24):
just see the pupil explode so I I'm
watching the pupil a lot more than the
way that people are trying to do brain
spawning and the training I mean they
tell you to look for the dilation a
little bit but I'm really reading it
more than I think most clinicians do
based on what I'm hearing from people
that have had it with other clinicians
um including people in my family uh so
one of the things that like I think that
(07:45):
the clinicians need to do more of if
you're a clinician is like look how the
eye is dilating because I had been a
clinician for three months I didn't know
what I was doing and I was not doing
EMDR anymore and I kept paying for more
embr supervisions to say like hey people
like this I don't know what to do EMDR
is incredibly manualized and scripted so
everybody kept telling me Oh you just do
15 movements and then you stop don't
(08:07):
stop and do what you're doing and I knew
that it was working people were asking
for it somebody said hey that sounds
like brain spotting I Google it I pay
400 to talk to David grant for an hour
who's the inventor of brain spotting um
David was great and I felt like he was
the first person who listened to me and
understood what I was saying and was
open uh I had to to what I was noticing
(08:27):
and he told me go do brain spotting and
you're going to see what this feels like
and then I did that and I pivoted my
whole practice towards it because I
think it was one of the most effective
tools that's out there but they don't
necessarily train you to do it the way
that I do it so if you're stuck with
your therapist or you are a therapist
and you want new to techniques I mean
here's just stuff to consider so first
off EMDR is very restrictive a lot of
(08:49):
brain spawning clinicians were
previously EMDR clinicians and so
there's a ton of rules you do this
amount of movement then you go back then
you stop well what if the person has
dissociative identity disorder and they
bark like a dog well what if the person
is crying in a puddle oh well do you
either stop it and you wait or you just
go back and you do the movement there's
no way to insert yourself as a clinician
I mean a limited amount there is but the
(09:12):
the people who are certified in it
they're very like tight and very
inflexible and it's very manualized and
so David Grand was also an ex embr
clinician I I don't know but I think my
guess would be that brain spotting is
kind of like way open-ended and open to
the patient's experience kind of as a
reaction to the way that EMDR is
(09:32):
and I don't think that's bad uh but I
also have a different perspective than I
think a lot of the EMDR people will the
brain spawning trained people have and
that's fine
um I don't think they're wrong this is
just a different take uh I think that
when they train clinicians to be so open
to absolutely anything happen meaning
sometimes you leave patients without
(09:55):
enough information to go into processing
and also sometimes you don't we give
patients enough information to know what
is going to maybe come up during
processing and David's whole thing is
that like
if you're trapping people within this
conception and you're being too
analytical and you're trying to help
them understand it you're stopping
(10:15):
processing from happening I absolutely
agree with that that is true right but
what happens is that sometimes what
people take away from the training is
that all they have to do is say what do
you feel here what do you feel here what
do you feel here move the pointer around
not look at the patient's eye you know
and
not look at what the patient's doing not
give the patient a prompt and I just
(10:35):
don't think that works there's an idea
with brain spawning called staying in
the tail of the Comet and the training
they will repeat that to you over and
over again as a clinician and what
they're saying is that you're not
supposed to be in front of the patient
trying to conceptualize the experience
and get in front of their experience and
help them into it you're supposed to
just let the experience happen and you
are in the tale of the comment you're
behind that okay and you're just waiting
(10:58):
for it to come up and seeing if it comes
up and that's true when a patient is
processing you need to be quiet you need
to watch even if you have the most
brilliant conception in the world you
don't need to talk
but if your client is not processing
you're not in the tail of the comment
man like you're watching the comment
from Earth that's not being in the tale
of the comment and that's what a lot of
clinicians do is they just keep waiting
(11:19):
for processing to happen and you do have
to push people into it there are people
who I absolutely could not have helped
if I did not break the training
um or you know deviate from what they
tell you in those trainings and one of
the things that I do that a lot of
clinicians don't is that I move the
pointer I mean what they will tell you
in brain spotting training is that you
find the spawn in the person's eye if
(11:40):
you're doing outside window where the
clinician is looking for where they see
the blinks and the dilation and the
involuntary muscle movement and they
wait there so a lot of therapists they
just are like oh do you feel anything
here even though they see something and
the patient says no
and then they just move okay well
everybody's different right you want to
be in the tail of the Comet and that
means that not everyone is going to have
the ability to feel what is happening in
(12:02):
their body right away I mean one this is
a weirder treatment they may just not
think that it works so like I will tell
people hey just hang out here a minute
no we're gonna wait here I know you're
saying you don't feel anything but I see
their face getting tight I see their eye
dilating I know that this is a brain
spot I am the one who does this all the
time I'm not an expert you know I'm not
the expert on taking away autonomy from
(12:22):
you but I know that you're going to go
into processing here because that's how
people work I'm being open to your
experience and your experiences that you
cannot feel your experience right now
and so I'll hang out at a spot for a
minute and I'll tell the person to wait
and they'll keep saying they don't feel
anything and then what they'll do a lot
of the time is they'll start moving
their head so I say look at the pointer
which is the eye position and then they
move their head because they'll scratch
(12:44):
or they'll get fidgety and they're
getting restless because I'm seeing the
brain spot work the the fight or flight
spot the fight-or-flight system is
activating people are getting fidgety
but because they move their head now
they're not on that spot anymore
and the Brain spotting training will
tell you not to move the pointer in
Phase One and phase two I don't do that
if you moved your head you're in a
(13:04):
different spot now and I'm gonna keep
chasing you to it and hitting that spot
where I see the dilation even if you go
and move over here then I'm going to
move the pointer to the left if you move
your head to the left I'm gonna find it
again and I'm going to keep doing that
until you start processing if you are a
resistant if you are have a lot of
resistance to this maybe you don't
believe it I'm going to help you feel it
(13:24):
so that you can feel that this works and
have a little bit more faith in the
process and if you're just moving the
pointer and saying what do you feel here
what do you feel here what do you feel
here for 10 sessions you are not giving
people reason to have faith in the
process because you're not giving them
any experience with processing so like
yeah they're not gonna think it works
um I think that you have to push people
(13:45):
a little harder than a lot of the
trainings say so I move the pointer left
and right up and down based on how the
person moved their head and sometimes
people move their head like you know
really far to the left because they're
trying to get away from me and we're
looking in the back room and their
perception is that I'm moving the
pointer they're like well you were
wanting me to turn that way and I'm like
no I'm only moving it when you turn your
head do you see how when I hit this you
want to move and now I'm bringing that
(14:06):
into awareness a little bit and they're
like oh wow yeah okay and there's more
buy-in from the from the patient and
they're a little bit more aware of
what's happening when we're going
so I think that's important I also move
the pointer on What's called the z-axis
I move it towards their face and away
from their face and you'll notice that
there's individual spots on that axis
right so like maybe I pass over the spot
(14:28):
that's about a foot from the face and I
get a little bit of blinking or I see
dilation well then I pass by it a couple
more times because I want to see is that
just you know like a
is that just something that came up out
of nowhere or is that a real part of the
spot and when I see the blink in the
same spot a lot of times on that z-axis
I creep up to the spot and that usually
pushes people a little bit deeper into
processing that's helpful that's another
(14:51):
way so you know if you're a therapist I
would do that uh or if you're a patient
who's moving your head in therapy I
would you know be aware of that
another thing that the phase two
clinicians have learned if they've taken
phase two brain spawning is there's
these glasses that you can wear one
covers the left eye one covers the right
eye and there's something in brand
spotting called uh and the words are
(15:12):
different I think like in Britain they
call them trigger spots or something the
way I learned uh which I mean all or uh
like anxiety spots like people have
different language but the way that I
learned and the way what most of the
training says there's activation spots
and resource spots the activation spots
turn anxiety up they help you process
the trauma the resource spots kind of
bleed anxiety off and help you calm down
(15:34):
and regulate and soothe there's also an
activation eye that speeds processing up
it makes it more intense there is also a
resource eye that slows processing down
and makes you calmer so
if you go on the resource eye to a
resource spot as a clinician you're
really going to calm that person down
so one of the things that I noticed
(15:56):
because I'm looking for dilation more
than they teach you is that when I know
I'm on a brain spot when I see it and
that spot is I call it like a Wibble I
it really wants to open it's like the
lens of the camera is trying to dilate
open but then I see it getting pinched
shut you know it's like whoop no what's
happening on their head because I know
that I've recorded my eye doing this I
have that video up and and I I've seen
(16:16):
what my eyes doing when I'm feeling it
and
same thing with the patients what's
happening is that they're thinking
you're starting to feel yourself go into
a scary place and then the patient's
like hell no I'm not going to go there
and then they're thinking so you're
watching somebody being pulled back up
into thought and when you have when you
start to say hey I'm seeing a spot here
but I'm noticing that you're right on
the edge you're going to the processing
(16:37):
you're kind of feeling something scary
that maybe you know it doesn't really
fit into words but you're kind of
feeling a scary thing or need to move
like you don't like this position and
then you're thinking about something
what is that and then they're like oh my
God because like you just read their
mind there's more buy-in to the process
you're not conceptualizing it and
telling them what to think you're making
room for their experience in a way that
just being like what do you feel here
what do you feel here what do you feel
here it does not make room for
(17:00):
um because they're gonna trust you and
they're going to have faith in this
process and you you know that it works
this way so you can help them do that
and a lot of clinicians don't so
then then they then you you can tell
them you know notice the thought
or if you're a patient you can just do
this notice the thought it's a
protective part it's trying to protect
you from the scary place that I'm trying
(17:20):
to pull you into it's like we're running
on a treadmill and eventually you're
just gonna get too tired to run anymore
and you're the treadmill is going to
pull you down there but it's going to
take a little while but if the thought
pops up notice it come back to the body
because the deepest part of the emotion
is the physical response in your body so
feel the emotion and then find where it
(17:41):
is physically and it's okay for this to
move we may start off thinking about
your heart and your heart's the black
hole and it's sucking and then that pops
open and now it's my back is tight well
don't you know don't make patients think
well you have to just be thinking about
your heart the whole time notice your
whole experience and what's happening
you know that now notices it's in your
neck
um so when a patient is processing you
(18:02):
know be quiet and let them go but if
they're not you haven't really done your
job yet as a clinician and this you know
maybe is a little bit pushier or has a
different perspective than some of the
training and I don't think that I'm
totally writer this works for everybody
but if you're bumping into this problem
these are some ways around it
um one thing is that you you notice body
responses and brain spotting and so a
(18:22):
lot of times people aren't even aware
that like I'm jerking my knee or I'm
moving my hand and if they come out of
processing and you're trying to get them
to go back into it by being aware of the
body you know if they're out of it you
can talk if they're in it let them go
but if they're coming out of it and
they're not really there I'll say you
know notice your hand notice your foot
and a lot of times they're like oh I'm
not moving that and then they realize
(18:43):
that it's tight or something and they go
and you see the eye open back up and
they go back in so you can't always see
what's happening though some people are
way out of touch with their body and
some people have like muscle tension in
their back where you see their backs
locking up but you can't really touch
the patient you know if they're saying
like I don't feel anything I don't feel
anything you can't just like dig in
behind their clothes and say look okay
(19:04):
your back's tight right here right like
that isn't our role as a therapist but
there's um people who I work with that
help the process a lot with brain
spawning they don't work at Taproot but
we refer to them
some people do something called
myofascial release and some people do
something called Rolf massage r o r r
yeah r-o-l-f Rolf and those are those
(19:25):
are neat
um they're kinds of massage that are not
like this place is sore I'm gonna rub on
it it's not structural as in like oh
your cartilage and your leg is weak move
this exercise and it'll go back most of
these people are physical therapists and
um so they're doing a different thing
than normal PT but it's less structural
um but myofascial release the the and
(19:46):
I'm not a massage therapist so I'm I'm
quoting them I don't have the expert on
we don't have the expert one day I want
to have them on the podcast and I'd like
for them to speak for themselves but we
haven't been able to have time because
we're so busy so these myofascial and
these wrath massage people they can
really help bring stuff into awareness
that you're just not going to be able to
notice or get out of patience if they're
overwhelmed now when people say like I
(20:08):
don't feel anything there A lot of times
what they mean is I'm feeling too much I
don't know what it is I don't know how
to label able to stuff I don't know how
to feel it it's not that you're not
feeling it's that you're overwhelmed and
the more often myofascial people which I
hope work more with therapists in the
future because it's we need to be more
integrative they're able to say things
(20:28):
like hey it feels like your posture is
trying to curl up into a ball and and
kind of like disappear but at the same
time you want to like stand up and and
be heard and seen and be loud but you're
you're this muscle's tight and that
muscle's tight and they're pulling in
different things and it's making pain
here you know I don't know all that
stuff I'm getting better at
understanding how posture informs this
because I work with them and the
patients tell me what they say and I
(20:48):
have an Roi to talk to the provider and
the provider has an Roi to talk to me
but you know like those things really
help brain spotting they help you get
unstuck or give you some tools to go
deeper into it
um you know I had a patient who she I
felt like I was seeing anger but she
couldn't get there and the provider said
well you've got a response where you
(21:09):
want to fight but then you also want to
give up so there's a and then you know
the eye just explode loaded she went
right into the processing it really
dilated and like we got some good work
done so that's like uh another thing
that you can bring into it if you're
having a hard time getting stuck uh with
with the uh with the stuff I think the
trauma mapping I talk about that a lot
(21:30):
on here I'm not going to go through it
more people should do that when they're
having a hard time pushing the patient
under the feeling the brain spawning
thing again it's kind of too open
they're like what do you want to work on
they don't even say a lot of times like
where is that in your body find that
feeling you know if somebody knows
exactly what they want to work on they
go into processing fine stay in the tell
of the comment right but if you want to
really help someone and they're coming
(21:52):
in 10 times and they haven't processed
anything you need to kind of start
bringing this into awareness to help
them feel it to find the brain spot I do
something called tapping I get something
cold like a a rock or uh I'm not pretty
Rock not like a dirty one there's uh
crystals and a little brass column
different things but I tell the person
to concentrate on where it hurts or
(22:12):
where they think feel the thing in their
body body and just tap it and you and
you'll see their eye kind of dark to the
spot when they tap it because their
body's associating with that thing brain
spottings you know built I think on the
body brain Associates this eye position
with this past experience that's kind of
stuck and undealt with and you can also
do gay spotting that they teach you to
(22:33):
do in phase two where people are looking
in the room when they're talking about
every single time I feel trapped and my
dad does this where is their eye going
if it's going to the same spot and
there's nothing there in your room then
notice that and maybe just start there
and trust yourself as a clinician even
if the patient saying for the first
couple minutes I don't feel anything
here if you're seeing movement go with
it and help them process stuff don't
(22:54):
just wait for them to do everything
that's also not being in the tail of the
Comet if you're just assuming that if
you ask well what do you feel what do
you feel then eventually or feel feel
just feel eventually they're just going
to go into processing and your job is
just to do that it's not your job is to
do more than that wood talks about like
when people are thinking too much and
they they can't get out of their head
and that's one of the reasons why I
(23:15):
think what clinicians need to do more of
is look at what the eye is actually
doing because you kind of intuitively
learn to know if somebody's processing
or not sometimes if the person's iris is
real dark it's very hard to see the
difference in the the black and the dark
brown you know somebody with blue eyes
it's a lot easier to see that or
somebody with you know light green eyes
or something but you can still see I
mean especially with some of these when
(23:37):
somebody's pretty deep in processing I
mean the the iris is very active the
pupil is doing like weird things I mean
sometimes like stuff you don't see
unless somebody has like a concussion or
something I mean I've had severe
dissociative disorder patients have
their pupil look like a strobe light I
mean it's going from like you know an
F-16 dilation on a camera to like an F1
like huge so I think it's important to
(23:58):
read that and you know I said before
like
that when the pupil is like starting to
open you know every time you hit that
spot you're seeing it start to bloom
but it's not
going into processing it's kind of
pinching back off and then the person
doesn't look like they're kind of
feeling anything uh profound or anything
that is like you know when people go
(24:20):
into their body there's kind of a
a dream like face or like a look of awe
or you know you see muscles twitch or
there's a look of discomfort you know
you're seeing a spot but nothing is
happening a lot of times you know
they're thinking and so talking about
the thoughts that are coming up learning
to map those is helpful but sometimes
they're just not ever going to be able
to think their way out of that or it's
(24:41):
going to take a long time to think
through it and so in the phase two brain
spotting training they teach you to use
the glasses to use an activation eye to
speed things up or resource side
Associates things down
and so if you use a resource I so you
find the I that makes you calmer and
then you use the resource spot you're
going to pull a ton of anxiety off
(25:02):
so if you found like an activation spot
where you need to process that trauma
but you can't get into it or it's just
taking multiple sessions
um sometimes brain spawning works better
over like two hours three hours honestly
for for certain kinds of people you know
you want to be open to how they're
coming in but
unfortunately insurance doesn't make a
(25:23):
ton of sense at least in Alabama Most
states
they will pay for one session a day but
you can come seven days a week you know
we're really you know two hours a week
all at once it's probably gonna save
them more money and get people better
most people don't want that other hour
to be private pay so you know this is a
way to kind of open that up faster
without just waiting
(25:44):
bleed all the anxiety off with the
resource eye and the resource spot if
somebody's having trouble thinking or
calming down and then you go to the
activation eye you know and then you go
to the activation spot
um and you try and go in that way and
now I'm able to process because my
thoughts are not roiling of like what is
this why not here does this work do I
(26:04):
look stupid what's happening am I doing
it wrong can I ever get better you know
all of that stuff is a protective part
that doesn't want me to just drop down
in and feel the bad place and it's all
popping up and roiling and sometimes you
can bleed that off of the resource spot
in a resource uh buy and then you can go
in and do processing on an activation
spot
that's one technique that I use a lot
(26:26):
um another one that I think doesn't get
talked about enough is like metaphor
uh you know the the bottom part of our
brain when cognition during brain
spotting cognition is off and the
prefrontal cortex is not terribly active
and really deep processing you're very
deep in the mid and the subcortical
brain and it it's it's this place where
like emotion is tied to physical
(26:47):
expressions of emotion so it's very pure
emotion and then where that emotion is
in your body and what it's doing and
kind of the way that Jung said that the
bottom levels of the brain in its
language was metaphor it wasn't language
and I think that we respond and that you
know dream is is like that you know the
dream is kind of when the ego or
(27:08):
Consciousness is turned off and you're
making you know essentially a
a symbol of how you feel or a symbol of
this thing that your unconscious is
chewing on because you don't have the
ability to think about it literally
you know when you're trying to help
somebody feel something because that's
the key to going into brain spotting and
most kinds of effective therapy is can I
(27:28):
make you stop thinking about this
analyzing it intellectualizing it and
just feel it
um metaphor is helpful you know and and
not everyone's going to respond to that
definitely be open you know uh none of
this is saying that the uncertainty
principle of you know David Grand and
the trainings is wrong but you can be
open to all of that and still say you
(27:49):
know from in your head maybe you know
most people this happens so if this
doesn't work I'm going to try this I
mean I don't think that's violating the
uncertainty principle
um I think that's trying things until
something works you know sitting with
the uncertainty of everybody is
different I'm not going to do the same
thing for everybody but some people
think uh in a metaphorical language and
it helps them feel so you may have a
(28:11):
strong thinker type that's like no maybe
this is when I was two I don't know it
can't be what I was two because I had a
good life then and you know my back
hurts sometimes but not right now and
you're like okay just feel the back
though no no and and you just see them
every time you suggest the body they
Zing back up into their head you know
maybe say okay
when you're sitting with your neck you
said you felt tired what is that tired
(28:31):
like you know do you feel like you're
just a mountain climber that's climbing
up a mountain and you have to achieve
this great thing and you're worried that
you can't you know is it more of like a
fear of not being able to do it or do
you just feel like you were in the
middle of the perfect storm on a
sailboat and waves are smashing and it's
you're fighting and fighting but it's
completely hopeless you just you're
hopeless you cannot
(28:51):
you cannot win because you're you're go
up in a sailboat against an F1 tornado
and you're trying so hard but deep down
you just don't really feel like you
could do it or
you know is it um you know an exhaustion
like you just
can't even muster up any muscles you
just want to turn into slime and drip
through the floor right here okay so
like I didn't just ask a thinker type
(29:13):
there hey do you feel hopeless or do you
feel afraid of a comp not accomplishing
something or do you just feel exhausted
right I'm offering them into a felt
experience of being tired to really
figure out what that means and where
that is in their body
um that isn't saying what do you feel
where is it in your body or just feel
you know I'm I'm trying to offer them a
(29:35):
Gateway into that experience and I think
that you have to keep trying something
until something works and the people
that I do here from online
it's where the clinician is just doing
the same thing and
I have total respect for the uncertainty
principle and the the idea of dual
Attunement that brain spotting uses a
lot that it's two people together
feeling something
(29:56):
but you're not sitting with dual
Attunement if you're not watching the
eye you're not sitting with dual
attention if you're not noticing the way
somebody thinks you're not sitting with
dual tune unless you're really paying
attention to things about them they may
not notice
um instead of just asking them what do
you feel what do you feel you need to
realize what they feel you know
sometimes you'll be able to realize that
(30:16):
better than the patient and then help
them experience that too that's dual
tune in okay the uncertainty principle
is not doing the same thing every time
it's sitting with the uncertainty of
yeah let's see what comes up but this
doesn't seem to work so let's try
something else you know and and
sometimes I think people take the
uncertainty principle language to mean
like oh you just talk about the
uncertainty principle and say we have no
(30:36):
idea what's going to come up but no I
think what it means is that like you
keep trying new things and because you
need to be able to sit with your own
uncertainty to not have a script to not
have a formula to be Innovative to be
uncertain to have doubt and to innovate
and a lot of times I hear clinicians
like talking about the uncertainty
principle like in in you know groups or
(30:58):
something uh or online you know there's
some things but then it doesn't really
seem like they are willing to let
themselves sit in uncertainty they just
want to talk about uncertainty so this
stuff is not a criticism of the way
brain spotting works it's a different
perspective and it's you know a way of
thinking about it differently so
hopefully we can get to a different
place with our patients so yeah I mean
(31:21):
and again I don't want it to sound like
I'm criticizing the brain spawning
training I think that a lot of times you
know you're playing the telephone game
with David writes a thing with his
students which gets written down which
train this person trained that person
and maybe we just lose the spirit of it
he's I'm sure that he's a great
commissioner all the people doing the
trainings are are wonderful clinicians
when you're in the room with them
they're probably doing great work but I
do hear this stuff over and over and
(31:42):
over people call and they say I don't
think brain spawning works that's not
good for the profession like it's not
good for the the modality
um so it's important for people to be
able to try and help people go into
processing if they're having a hard time
by putting them in the subcortical brain
what are you smelling what are you
tasting what are you feeling how does
your body want to move where is the
(32:04):
tension what does it feel like not just
hot cold tight does it feel like TV
static does it feel like the color green
like make room for anything what do you
feel outside your body do you feel
heavier than the room lighter than the
room you're saying that your chest feels
heavy is it heavy like pushing down is
it heavy like you're struggling to hold
it up and your legs are tight as it's is
it heavy like you're it's pulling you to
(32:25):
the floor pushing down on your chest you
know all those questions help people go
what I hadn't thought about that and
then they're experiencing more and it is
your job to help them learn to think
this way so that they can process this
stuff and
you know the language of brain spawning
is really like the trainings it's based
I'm guessing I haven't asked David
Graham this but it looks like he's very
(32:46):
into existentialism and Chaos Theory
um which if you've read the Jurassic
Park Book way back when it's the little
propeller thing that Michael Crichton
threw in there to give it some spiritual
uh thematic depth
um but this idea that like we can never
know anything that everything is just so
complicated that one change can make
this butterfly effect and uh you know
I'm not an expert on any of that I'm a
(33:07):
little bit more mystical like I'm using
more jungian language about like going
down to Plate face to places underneath
your life that at the time you didn't
think you could survive but when you go
back into it to face them that you can't
take everything you know with you you
can't take the ego from with you when
you go back in you might be two or you
might be four and you don't have the
protection of your intellect and all the
(33:27):
things that you know now neither one of
those is right or wrong but I think in
the existential kind of uh Chaos Theory
language that he's using when he writes
those trainings about like
and that you want to push people and you
want the provider needs to just be open
to anything happening absolutely be open
to anything happening but if nothing is
(33:47):
happening that's not being open if
you're doing the same thing over and
over and over again and the person is
not going into processing or if you're
trying to get somebody to process that's
not being open another thing that I do
which is probably a little bit against
the rules as I said you know the glasses
have an activation spot and they also
have and there's an activation I and
there's also an activation spot right
(34:08):
well sometimes when somebody's just
telling me I can see the spot but
they're not considering it they're like
I don't feel anything this doesn't work
you know it's a very resistant person
who needs to be sold on this because it
is weird I didn't believe this worked
until I did it I mean you know you're
fine to doubt it
um you know there's I can see them
feeling a little bit but they're moving
their head
I will put the activation glass on and
(34:31):
then I will hit an activation spot which
makes the little trauma response too
strong right I'm not saying just dive in
and do this to somebody okay but there
are people who have needed help feeling
that this is a real thing and they need
help validating this themselves and I'll
put that on for just a second and then
whoa okay just a second like when I've
turned that spot up to 11 and you're
(34:51):
really strongly feeling that then that
means that you're able to accept that
it's real we're not fighting about
whether or not this works anymore
because you just felt it and then okay
that looks like it's a little bit too
strong is that a little bit too strong
well then let's take the glasses off and
do it slower maybe we need to use the
resource classes but we're no longer you
know debating if it's real or not you've
already felt it you understand that it's
(35:12):
working and now we're rolling
um I I don't do that with everybody
usually the activation Eye Activation
spotting is when somebody's processed it
so much and we're really trying to
squeeze the lemon and get everything up
out of the spot it's already come down
so much what the distress was and we're
just trying to get the last little bit
um sometimes I'll do that I don't
recommend processing that way I'm not
(35:33):
saying that you just turn it up to 11
use the activation spot with the
activation glasses and then you know
make somebody just process way too much
that's just too much but if somebody's
having a really hard time feeling it or
or admitting to themselves that this eye
position actually is activating a trauma
sometimes that's a good way to sell this
procedure because they'll immediately
(35:54):
feel it and then I think that will lead
them more into feeling and more into
trusting you in the process and then you
can follow the comment and see where it
goes
um so I don't know
um if you all have questions or anything
let me know but those are the things
that if you're a therapist or if you're
a client you may want to think about
doing or asking your therapist for
(36:14):
because
I just I don't know I've got a lot of
brain spotting videos and podcasts on
the internet and I get phone calls on
our voicemail from people who are out of
state out of the country sometimes and
all the time that I hear that the brain
spotting is not working and they're
asking me how do I get this to work
because they're not doing what you say
you do on there what they're describing
as somebody who's just holding the point
(36:35):
or encouraging the patient to feel while
the patient's not feeling I mean that's
too structured the person is getting
upset there you need to be a little bit
more open and do some different things
or suggest to your therapist I mean I
see a brain spotting therapist and I
said hey I bounce the pointer this way
I'm having a really hard time going into
processing could you try and do this and
she was open to it she did it with me it
(36:55):
worked great
um so that would be uh some of the
biggest barriers I see to when brain
spotting does not work I do think the
process works but I don't think that it
works for everybody and when it doesn't
work the majority of the time what I see
is that the clinician is just having a
hard time getting the person into
processing because they took away from
the training that as long as they just
(37:16):
wait it out the person will just start
the process eventually they don't have
to move the pointer they don't have to
change what they're saying they just
encourage you to feel and ask you if you
feel what where and then eventually
after session number 30 you'll just
start going I don't think that's right
um one that's just too much time most
people are going to leave and then two
uh I don't think that by doing the same
thing you get a different result so I
(37:38):
hope that uh that was helpful and uh I
will see you in brain spawning
foreign
[Music]
[Music]
hey guys it's Joel and this is a video
about what to do if brain spawning does
not work I talk about brain spotting a
whole lot a lot of people are into it
and then they come and try and get the
brain spotting because they've seen some
of the videos or content about trauma
and the different approaches to
(00:21):
treat trauma on our website uh so just
so you'll know I'm only licensed to
practice in Alabama and I'm in
Birmingham Alabama which is a lot of
drive from some places even in Alabama
but I cannot see you if you're out of
state I don't see anyone via teletherapy
and some therapists at Taproot do uh
Sarah Smith does uh and Christy wood
(00:43):
does but I also
I'm happy to talk to you I'm happy to uh
point you in the right direction for
where you can get uh resources to help
trauma wherever you are or tell you what
to look for in a clinician or find
people and I do that all the time but a
lot of people call from out of state
when they see these and they ask for how
to get parade spotting I can't see uh
(01:04):
out of state unfortunately
um but
uh also a lot of people come and they
the really the most common question that
we get is I saw your resources brain
spotting sounded super cool and I went
to do brain spotting and when I did it
didn't work or I wasn't sure if I was
doing it right and the therapist is
doing stuff that is not what you did
(01:25):
they're just kind of holding the pointer
um and so I I get that phone call a lot
uh and I talk to people and I'm happy to
do that but I made a video so that maybe
uh this will help therapists who are you
know getting going with brain spotting I
have some new technique and approach and
also or just a different perspective
women also patients who are trying to
(01:47):
figure out uh if brain spotting is right
for them if it's being done right or if
it's not a good fit or they need to talk
to their therapists more so the big
thing is like communicate with your
therapist if you don't think something's
working if you need more guidance you
know whatever
tell them
um I don't know if I'm doing this right
um so the big question is like am I
doing brain spotting right uh there's
not a right way to do it
(02:08):
but the things that are going to
interfere with the processes working is
you thinking
so everyone does this but you'll have
these protective parts that pop up
somebody say like
you know who what is this how does this
work is this working am I doing it right
what is he thinking
um all of that stuff and everyone has
(02:29):
those some people have more of them as a
protective part that's going to rev up a
whole lot more
and the thing that you want to do is not
try and just like when you're meditating
the thing is to not kill them or try and
get rid of them because then they'll
overwhelm you and you can't it's to
notice it okay I'm wondering what the
therapist is thinking and then come back
to the body okay because the goal with
(02:51):
brain spotting is to get into the mid
and the subcortical Brain that's where
the processing happens and a lot of
other therapy things too this is
relevant to other approaches uh they
treat trauma but to get there you have
to be feeling your body it is a
different kind of thinking and it's why
over time you get better at doing brain
spawning because you're you're just
(03:12):
learning how to turn on that kind of
felt intuitive sense that a lot of
people uh are not good at because we
have to give up our ego in a lot of our
protective Parts in order to get into
that
um and so that's why you go deeper and
deeper in successively you know with
brain spotting like a lot of times
people are kind of scratching the
surface for a little bit and the next
session they go further in and then you
(03:32):
go really deep in and you maybe lose
time and think that 25 minutes you were
under took you know five minutes or
something those deeper processing
moments are usually going to happen
further on because you're learning your
brain is learning how to feel this way
and it you know if you want to look at
an mbti there are Myers-Briggs type test
there are certain kinds of things that
(03:53):
most people who are going to have a hard
time not getting into their head with
brain spotting they're going to score
very low on that part and then as they
slowly do more brain spawning I've
actually done this then you'll notice
that you know thinking as something
comes down my score is not way high
there feeling and intuition usually go
up
um usually a way to be more of a
(04:16):
perceiver less of a judger is going to
um your score is going to change and you
you're teaching your brain to think in a
different way so
one of the things that people say when
they come in is hey my therapist like
held the pointer like this and they were
like what do you feel here what do you
feel here what do you feel here and I
(04:37):
was like nothing nothing nothing or I
don't know my back kind of hurts you
know there wasn't anything that was
dramatic that was happening and that's
how they train you to do brain spawning
in Phase One
um when the people call and they say
like Hey how do I go to Deuce therapy
with somebody who's doing this the way
that you do and talk about it I don't
know there's certain things I can look
(04:57):
for but the short answer is like
probably nobody does unless you're one
of the people who works for Taproot that
has worked with me or is in supervision
with me which you're welcome to do if
you would like to I actually can do that
out of state I can't legally supervise
you in another uh state but I can uh do
training online and I can also uh if you
want one of the things we do is work
(05:18):
with you for a couple years before you
come to Taproot to help take you into
private practice do supervision with
people and that's a good way to learn
trauma
treatment but when you have a therapist
that's going like you know what do you
feel here what do you feel here what do
you feel here and you're like I don't
know I'm not sure what to do and they're
not really giving you a lot of guidance
and you're being like
am I doing it right whatever and they're
(05:40):
like no just keep feeling just keep
feeling
that is the way that they're trained in
phase one and I came to brain spawning a
little bit differently I was an EMDR
clinician so you're moving the eye
during EMDR I didn't agree with all of
the EMDR scripting so I had my own and
what I did is I had a trauma map and the
trauma map was how we mapped how does
this trauma want to move you you know
(06:01):
when you feel the bad feeling what does
your spine want to do what do you notice
in your body you know what are the
protective parts that pop up in your
thinking and cognition how do your
fingers want to move do you want to curl
up into a ball and hide something do you
want to just let go and sink into the
carpet do you want to stand up and fight
you know when I feel trapped when I feel
sad when I feel whatever the the feeling
(06:21):
I can't feel is what does it do to my
body how does it want me to move me and
I'd have people actually move and would
do the EMDR
and while I was doing that I started
noticing that the pupil in the eye kind
of jumped over a spot like people are
trying to track my eye you know my
finger with their eye and then they
would see like the people kind of like
whoop jump over these spots where it
(06:42):
didn't want to be unconsciously because
you know it's moving quickly people
aren't doing that consciously it's just
an involuntary movement and so I started
moving my fingers to that spot while
we're doing the trauma map and then
people would dissociate they would go
like way deep into processing because I
work with very complex trauma patients
and so patients liked this and they were
requesting it and they were saying this
works better than CBT or EMDR or
(07:03):
whatever but I didn't really know what I
was doing
um and some patients were experiencing
like repressed memories like things that
parts of a traumatic event that they
hadn't remembered before or on different
you know parts and I noticed that the
the z-axis was really important too like
not just left and right but how far or
up and down but how far back was I and
sometimes if I hit a spot then I would
(07:24):
just see the pupil explode so I I'm
watching the pupil a lot more than the
way that people are trying to do brain
spawning and the training I mean they
tell you to look for the dilation a
little bit but I'm really reading it
more than I think most clinicians do
based on what I'm hearing from people
that have had it with other clinicians
um including people in my family uh so
one of the things that like I think that
(07:45):
the clinicians need to do more of if
you're a clinician is like look how the
eye is dilating because I had been a
clinician for three months I didn't know
what I was doing and I was not doing
EMDR anymore and I kept paying for more
embr supervisions to say like hey people
like this I don't know what to do EMDR
is incredibly manualized and scripted so
everybody kept telling me Oh you just do
15 movements and then you stop don't
(08:07):
stop and do what you're doing and I knew
that it was working people were asking
for it somebody said hey that sounds
like brain spotting I Google it I pay
400 to talk to David grant for an hour
who's the inventor of brain spotting um
David was great and I felt like he was
the first person who listened to me and
understood what I was saying and was
open uh I had to to what I was noticing
(08:27):
and he told me go do brain spotting and
you're going to see what this feels like
and then I did that and I pivoted my
whole practice towards it because I
think it was one of the most effective
tools that's out there but they don't
necessarily train you to do it the way
that I do it so if you're stuck with
your therapist or you are a therapist
and you want new to techniques I mean
here's just stuff to consider so first
off EMDR is very restrictive a lot of
(08:49):
brain spawning clinicians were
previously EMDR clinicians and so
there's a ton of rules you do this
amount of movement then you go back then
you stop well what if the person has
dissociative identity disorder and they
bark like a dog well what if the person
is crying in a puddle oh well do you
either stop it and you wait or you just
go back and you do the movement there's
no way to insert yourself as a clinician
I mean a limited amount there is but the
(09:12):
the people who are certified in it
they're very like tight and very
inflexible and it's very manualized and
so David Grand was also an ex embr
clinician I I don't know but I think my
guess would be that brain spotting is
kind of like way open-ended and open to
the patient's experience kind of as a
reaction to the way that EMDR is
(09:32):
and I don't think that's bad uh but I
also have a different perspective than I
think a lot of the EMDR people will the
brain spawning trained people have and
that's fine
um I don't think they're wrong this is
just a different take uh I think that
when they train clinicians to be so open
to absolutely anything happen meaning
sometimes you leave patients without
(09:55):
enough information to go into processing
and also sometimes you don't we give
patients enough information to know what
is going to maybe come up during
processing and David's whole thing is
that like
if you're trapping people within this
conception and you're being too
analytical and you're trying to help
them understand it you're stopping
(10:15):
processing from happening I absolutely
agree with that that is true right but
what happens is that sometimes what
people take away from the training is
that all they have to do is say what do
you feel here what do you feel here what
do you feel here move the pointer around
not look at the patient's eye you know
and
not look at what the patient's doing not
give the patient a prompt and I just
(10:35):
don't think that works there's an idea
with brain spawning called staying in
the tail of the Comet and the training
they will repeat that to you over and
over again as a clinician and what
they're saying is that you're not
supposed to be in front of the patient
trying to conceptualize the experience
and get in front of their experience and
help them into it you're supposed to
just let the experience happen and you
are in the tale of the comment you're
behind that okay and you're just waiting
(10:58):
for it to come up and seeing if it comes
up and that's true when a patient is
processing you need to be quiet you need
to watch even if you have the most
brilliant conception in the world you
don't need to talk
but if your client is not processing
you're not in the tail of the comment
man like you're watching the comment
from Earth that's not being in the tale
of the comment and that's what a lot of
clinicians do is they just keep waiting
(11:19):
for processing to happen and you do have
to push people into it there are people
who I absolutely could not have helped
if I did not break the training
um or you know deviate from what they
tell you in those trainings and one of
the things that I do that a lot of
clinicians don't is that I move the
pointer I mean what they will tell you
in brain spotting training is that you
find the spawn in the person's eye if
(11:40):
you're doing outside window where the
clinician is looking for where they see
the blinks and the dilation and the
involuntary muscle movement and they
wait there so a lot of therapists they
just are like oh do you feel anything
here even though they see something and
the patient says no
and then they just move okay well
everybody's different right you want to
be in the tail of the Comet and that
means that not everyone is going to have
the ability to feel what is happening in
(12:02):
their body right away I mean one this is
a weirder treatment they may just not
think that it works so like I will tell
people hey just hang out here a minute
no we're gonna wait here I know you're
saying you don't feel anything but I see
their face getting tight I see their eye
dilating I know that this is a brain
spot I am the one who does this all the
time I'm not an expert you know I'm not
the expert on taking away autonomy from
(12:22):
you but I know that you're going to go
into processing here because that's how
people work I'm being open to your
experience and your experiences that you
cannot feel your experience right now
and so I'll hang out at a spot for a
minute and I'll tell the person to wait
and they'll keep saying they don't feel
anything and then what they'll do a lot
of the time is they'll start moving
their head so I say look at the pointer
which is the eye position and then they
move their head because they'll scratch
(12:44):
or they'll get fidgety and they're
getting restless because I'm seeing the
brain spot work the the fight or flight
spot the fight-or-flight system is
activating people are getting fidgety
but because they move their head now
they're not on that spot anymore
and the Brain spotting training will
tell you not to move the pointer in
Phase One and phase two I don't do that
if you moved your head you're in a
(13:04):
different spot now and I'm gonna keep
chasing you to it and hitting that spot
where I see the dilation even if you go
and move over here then I'm going to
move the pointer to the left if you move
your head to the left I'm gonna find it
again and I'm going to keep doing that
until you start processing if you are a
resistant if you are have a lot of
resistance to this maybe you don't
believe it I'm going to help you feel it
(13:24):
so that you can feel that this works and
have a little bit more faith in the
process and if you're just moving the
pointer and saying what do you feel here
what do you feel here what do you feel
here for 10 sessions you are not giving
people reason to have faith in the
process because you're not giving them
any experience with processing so like
yeah they're not gonna think it works
um I think that you have to push people
(13:45):
a little harder than a lot of the
trainings say so I move the pointer left
and right up and down based on how the
person moved their head and sometimes
people move their head like you know
really far to the left because they're
trying to get away from me and we're
looking in the back room and their
perception is that I'm moving the
pointer they're like well you were
wanting me to turn that way and I'm like
no I'm only moving it when you turn your
head do you see how when I hit this you
want to move and now I'm bringing that
(14:06):
into awareness a little bit and they're
like oh wow yeah okay and there's more
buy-in from the from the patient and
they're a little bit more aware of
what's happening when we're going
so I think that's important I also move
the pointer on What's called the z-axis
I move it towards their face and away
from their face and you'll notice that
there's individual spots on that axis
right so like maybe I pass over the spot
(14:28):
that's about a foot from the face and I
get a little bit of blinking or I see
dilation well then I pass by it a couple
more times because I want to see is that
just you know like a
is that just something that came up out
of nowhere or is that a real part of the
spot and when I see the blink in the
same spot a lot of times on that z-axis
I creep up to the spot and that usually
pushes people a little bit deeper into
processing that's helpful that's another
(14:51):
way so you know if you're a therapist I
would do that uh or if you're a patient
who's moving your head in therapy I
would you know be aware of that
another thing that the phase two
clinicians have learned if they've taken
phase two brain spawning is there's
these glasses that you can wear one
covers the left eye one covers the right
eye and there's something in brand
spotting called uh and the words are
(15:12):
different I think like in Britain they
call them trigger spots or something the
way I learned uh which I mean all or uh
like anxiety spots like people have
different language but the way that I
learned and the way what most of the
training says there's activation spots
and resource spots the activation spots
turn anxiety up they help you process
the trauma the resource spots kind of
bleed anxiety off and help you calm down
(15:34):
and regulate and soothe there's also an
activation eye that speeds processing up
it makes it more intense there is also a
resource eye that slows processing down
and makes you calmer so
if you go on the resource eye to a
resource spot as a clinician you're
really going to calm that person down
so one of the things that I noticed
(15:56):
because I'm looking for dilation more
than they teach you is that when I know
I'm on a brain spot when I see it and
that spot is I call it like a Wibble I
it really wants to open it's like the
lens of the camera is trying to dilate
open but then I see it getting pinched
shut you know it's like whoop no what's
happening on their head because I know
that I've recorded my eye doing this I
have that video up and and I I've seen
(16:16):
what my eyes doing when I'm feeling it
and
same thing with the patients what's
happening is that they're thinking
you're starting to feel yourself go into
a scary place and then the patient's
like hell no I'm not going to go there
and then they're thinking so you're
watching somebody being pulled back up
into thought and when you have when you
start to say hey I'm seeing a spot here
but I'm noticing that you're right on
the edge you're going to the processing
(16:37):
you're kind of feeling something scary
that maybe you know it doesn't really
fit into words but you're kind of
feeling a scary thing or need to move
like you don't like this position and
then you're thinking about something
what is that and then they're like oh my
God because like you just read their
mind there's more buy-in to the process
you're not conceptualizing it and
telling them what to think you're making
room for their experience in a way that
just being like what do you feel here
what do you feel here what do you feel
here it does not make room for
(17:00):
um because they're gonna trust you and
they're going to have faith in this
process and you you know that it works
this way so you can help them do that
and a lot of clinicians don't so
then then they then you you can tell
them you know notice the thought
or if you're a patient you can just do
this notice the thought it's a
protective part it's trying to protect
you from the scary place that I'm trying
(17:20):
to pull you into it's like we're running
on a treadmill and eventually you're
just gonna get too tired to run anymore
and you're the treadmill is going to
pull you down there but it's going to
take a little while but if the thought
pops up notice it come back to the body
because the deepest part of the emotion
is the physical response in your body so
feel the emotion and then find where it
(17:41):
is physically and it's okay for this to
move we may start off thinking about
your heart and your heart's the black
hole and it's sucking and then that pops
open and now it's my back is tight well
don't you know don't make patients think
well you have to just be thinking about
your heart the whole time notice your
whole experience and what's happening
you know that now notices it's in your
neck
um so when a patient is processing you
(18:02):
know be quiet and let them go but if
they're not you haven't really done your
job yet as a clinician and this you know
maybe is a little bit pushier or has a
different perspective than some of the
training and I don't think that I'm
totally writer this works for everybody
but if you're bumping into this problem
these are some ways around it
um one thing is that you you notice body
responses and brain spotting and so a
(18:22):
lot of times people aren't even aware
that like I'm jerking my knee or I'm
moving my hand and if they come out of
processing and you're trying to get them
to go back into it by being aware of the
body you know if they're out of it you
can talk if they're in it let them go
but if they're coming out of it and
they're not really there I'll say you
know notice your hand notice your foot
and a lot of times they're like oh I'm
not moving that and then they realize
(18:43):
that it's tight or something and they go
and you see the eye open back up and
they go back in so you can't always see
what's happening though some people are
way out of touch with their body and
some people have like muscle tension in
their back where you see their backs
locking up but you can't really touch
the patient you know if they're saying
like I don't feel anything I don't feel
anything you can't just like dig in
behind their clothes and say look okay
(19:04):
your back's tight right here right like
that isn't our role as a therapist but
there's um people who I work with that
help the process a lot with brain
spawning they don't work at Taproot but
we refer to them
some people do something called
myofascial release and some people do
something called Rolf massage r o r r
yeah r-o-l-f Rolf and those are those
(19:25):
are neat
um they're kinds of massage that are not
like this place is sore I'm gonna rub on
it it's not structural as in like oh
your cartilage and your leg is weak move
this exercise and it'll go back most of
these people are physical therapists and
um so they're doing a different thing
than normal PT but it's less structural
um but myofascial release the the and
(19:46):
I'm not a massage therapist so I'm I'm
quoting them I don't have the expert on
we don't have the expert one day I want
to have them on the podcast and I'd like
for them to speak for themselves but we
haven't been able to have time because
we're so busy so these myofascial and
these wrath massage people they can
really help bring stuff into awareness
that you're just not going to be able to
notice or get out of patience if they're
overwhelmed now when people say like I
(20:08):
don't feel anything there A lot of times
what they mean is I'm feeling too much I
don't know what it is I don't know how
to label able to stuff I don't know how
to feel it it's not that you're not
feeling it's that you're overwhelmed and
the more often myofascial people which I
hope work more with therapists in the
future because it's we need to be more
integrative they're able to say things
(20:28):
like hey it feels like your posture is
trying to curl up into a ball and and
kind of like disappear but at the same
time you want to like stand up and and
be heard and seen and be loud but you're
you're this muscle's tight and that
muscle's tight and they're pulling in
different things and it's making pain
here you know I don't know all that
stuff I'm getting better at
understanding how posture informs this
because I work with them and the
patients tell me what they say and I
(20:48):
have an Roi to talk to the provider and
the provider has an Roi to talk to me
but you know like those things really
help brain spotting they help you get
unstuck or give you some tools to go
deeper into it
um you know I had a patient who she I
felt like I was seeing anger but she
couldn't get there and the provider said
well you've got a response where you
(21:09):
want to fight but then you also want to
give up so there's a and then you know
the eye just explode loaded she went
right into the processing it really
dilated and like we got some good work
done so that's like uh another thing
that you can bring into it if you're
having a hard time getting stuck uh with
with the uh with the stuff I think the
trauma mapping I talk about that a lot
(21:30):
on here I'm not going to go through it
more people should do that when they're
having a hard time pushing the patient
under the feeling the brain spawning
thing again it's kind of too open
they're like what do you want to work on
they don't even say a lot of times like
where is that in your body find that
feeling you know if somebody knows
exactly what they want to work on they
go into processing fine stay in the tell
of the comment right but if you want to
really help someone and they're coming
(21:52):
in 10 times and they haven't processed
anything you need to kind of start
bringing this into awareness to help
them feel it to find the brain spot I do
something called tapping I get something
cold like a a rock or uh I'm not pretty
Rock not like a dirty one there's uh
crystals and a little brass column
different things but I tell the person
to concentrate on where it hurts or
(22:12):
where they think feel the thing in their
body body and just tap it and you and
you'll see their eye kind of dark to the
spot when they tap it because their
body's associating with that thing brain
spottings you know built I think on the
body brain Associates this eye position
with this past experience that's kind of
stuck and undealt with and you can also
do gay spotting that they teach you to
(22:33):
do in phase two where people are looking
in the room when they're talking about
every single time I feel trapped and my
dad does this where is their eye going
if it's going to the same spot and
there's nothing there in your room then
notice that and maybe just start there
and trust yourself as a clinician even
if the patient saying for the first
couple minutes I don't feel anything
here if you're seeing movement go with
it and help them process stuff don't
(22:54):
just wait for them to do everything
that's also not being in the tail of the
Comet if you're just assuming that if
you ask well what do you feel what do
you feel then eventually or feel feel
just feel eventually they're just going
to go into processing and your job is
just to do that it's not your job is to
do more than that wood talks about like
when people are thinking too much and
they they can't get out of their head
and that's one of the reasons why I
(23:15):
think what clinicians need to do more of
is look at what the eye is actually
doing because you kind of intuitively
learn to know if somebody's processing
or not sometimes if the person's iris is
real dark it's very hard to see the
difference in the the black and the dark
brown you know somebody with blue eyes
it's a lot easier to see that or
somebody with you know light green eyes
or something but you can still see I
mean especially with some of these when
(23:37):
somebody's pretty deep in processing I
mean the the iris is very active the
pupil is doing like weird things I mean
sometimes like stuff you don't see
unless somebody has like a concussion or
something I mean I've had severe
dissociative disorder patients have
their pupil look like a strobe light I
mean it's going from like you know an
F-16 dilation on a camera to like an F1
like huge so I think it's important to
(23:58):
read that and you know I said before
like
that when the pupil is like starting to
open you know every time you hit that
spot you're seeing it start to bloom
but it's not
going into processing it's kind of
pinching back off and then the person
doesn't look like they're kind of
feeling anything uh profound or anything
that is like you know when people go
(24:20):
into their body there's kind of a
a dream like face or like a look of awe
or you know you see muscles twitch or
there's a look of discomfort you know
you're seeing a spot but nothing is
happening a lot of times you know
they're thinking and so talking about
the thoughts that are coming up learning
to map those is helpful but sometimes
they're just not ever going to be able
to think their way out of that or it's
(24:41):
going to take a long time to think
through it and so in the phase two brain
spotting training they teach you to use
the glasses to use an activation eye to
speed things up or resource side
Associates things down
and so if you use a resource I so you
find the I that makes you calmer and
then you use the resource spot you're
going to pull a ton of anxiety off
(25:02):
so if you found like an activation spot
where you need to process that trauma
but you can't get into it or it's just
taking multiple sessions
um sometimes brain spawning works better
over like two hours three hours honestly
for for certain kinds of people you know
you want to be open to how they're
coming in but
unfortunately insurance doesn't make a
(25:23):
ton of sense at least in Alabama Most
states
they will pay for one session a day but
you can come seven days a week you know
we're really you know two hours a week
all at once it's probably gonna save
them more money and get people better
most people don't want that other hour
to be private pay so you know this is a
way to kind of open that up faster
without just waiting
(25:44):
bleed all the anxiety off with the
resource eye and the resource spot if
somebody's having trouble thinking or
calming down and then you go to the
activation eye you know and then you go
to the activation spot
um and you try and go in that way and
now I'm able to process because my
thoughts are not roiling of like what is
this why not here does this work do I
(26:04):
look stupid what's happening am I doing
it wrong can I ever get better you know
all of that stuff is a protective part
that doesn't want me to just drop down
in and feel the bad place and it's all
popping up and roiling and sometimes you
can bleed that off of the resource spot
in a resource uh buy and then you can go
in and do processing on an activation
spot
that's one technique that I use a lot
(26:26):
um another one that I think doesn't get
talked about enough is like metaphor
uh you know the the bottom part of our
brain when cognition during brain
spotting cognition is off and the
prefrontal cortex is not terribly active
and really deep processing you're very
deep in the mid and the subcortical
brain and it it's it's this place where
like emotion is tied to physical
(26:47):
expressions of emotion so it's very pure
emotion and then where that emotion is
in your body and what it's doing and
kind of the way that Jung said that the
bottom levels of the brain in its
language was metaphor it wasn't language
and I think that we respond and that you
know dream is is like that you know the
dream is kind of when the ego or
(27:08):
Consciousness is turned off and you're
making you know essentially a
a symbol of how you feel or a symbol of
this thing that your unconscious is
chewing on because you don't have the
ability to think about it literally
you know when you're trying to help
somebody feel something because that's
the key to going into brain spotting and
most kinds of effective therapy is can I
(27:28):
make you stop thinking about this
analyzing it intellectualizing it and
just feel it
um metaphor is helpful you know and and
not everyone's going to respond to that
definitely be open you know uh none of
this is saying that the uncertainty
principle of you know David Grand and
the trainings is wrong but you can be
open to all of that and still say you
(27:49):
know from in your head maybe you know
most people this happens so if this
doesn't work I'm going to try this I
mean I don't think that's violating the
uncertainty principle
um I think that's trying things until
something works you know sitting with
the uncertainty of everybody is
different I'm not going to do the same
thing for everybody but some people
think uh in a metaphorical language and
it helps them feel so you may have a
(28:11):
strong thinker type that's like no maybe
this is when I was two I don't know it
can't be what I was two because I had a
good life then and you know my back
hurts sometimes but not right now and
you're like okay just feel the back
though no no and and you just see them
every time you suggest the body they
Zing back up into their head you know
maybe say okay
when you're sitting with your neck you
said you felt tired what is that tired
(28:31):
like you know do you feel like you're
just a mountain climber that's climbing
up a mountain and you have to achieve
this great thing and you're worried that
you can't you know is it more of like a
fear of not being able to do it or do
you just feel like you were in the
middle of the perfect storm on a
sailboat and waves are smashing and it's
you're fighting and fighting but it's
completely hopeless you just you're
hopeless you cannot
(28:51):
you cannot win because you're you're go
up in a sailboat against an F1 tornado
and you're trying so hard but deep down
you just don't really feel like you
could do it or
you know is it um you know an exhaustion
like you just
can't even muster up any muscles you
just want to turn into slime and drip
through the floor right here okay so
like I didn't just ask a thinker type
(29:13):
there hey do you feel hopeless or do you
feel afraid of a comp not accomplishing
something or do you just feel exhausted
right I'm offering them into a felt
experience of being tired to really
figure out what that means and where
that is in their body
um that isn't saying what do you feel
where is it in your body or just feel
you know I'm I'm trying to offer them a
(29:35):
Gateway into that experience and I think
that you have to keep trying something
until something works and the people
that I do here from online
it's where the clinician is just doing
the same thing and
I have total respect for the uncertainty
principle and the the idea of dual
Attunement that brain spotting uses a
lot that it's two people together
feeling something
(29:56):
but you're not sitting with dual
Attunement if you're not watching the
eye you're not sitting with dual
attention if you're not noticing the way
somebody thinks you're not sitting with
dual tune unless you're really paying
attention to things about them they may
not notice
um instead of just asking them what do
you feel what do you feel you need to
realize what they feel you know
sometimes you'll be able to realize that
(30:16):
better than the patient and then help
them experience that too that's dual
tune in okay the uncertainty principle
is not doing the same thing every time
it's sitting with the uncertainty of
yeah let's see what comes up but this
doesn't seem to work so let's try
something else you know and and
sometimes I think people take the
uncertainty principle language to mean
like oh you just talk about the
uncertainty principle and say we have no
(30:36):
idea what's going to come up but no I
think what it means is that like you
keep trying new things and because you
need to be able to sit with your own
uncertainty to not have a script to not
have a formula to be Innovative to be
uncertain to have doubt and to innovate
and a lot of times I hear clinicians
like talking about the uncertainty
principle like in in you know groups or
(30:58):
something uh or online you know there's
some things but then it doesn't really
seem like they are willing to let
themselves sit in uncertainty they just
want to talk about uncertainty so this
stuff is not a criticism of the way
brain spotting works it's a different
perspective and it's you know a way of
thinking about it differently so
hopefully we can get to a different
place with our patients so yeah I mean
(31:21):
and again I don't want it to sound like
I'm criticizing the brain spawning
training I think that a lot of times you
know you're playing the telephone game
with David writes a thing with his
students which gets written down which
train this person trained that person
and maybe we just lose the spirit of it
he's I'm sure that he's a great
commissioner all the people doing the
trainings are are wonderful clinicians
when you're in the room with them
they're probably doing great work but I
do hear this stuff over and over and
(31:42):
over people call and they say I don't
think brain spawning works that's not
good for the profession like it's not
good for the the modality
um so it's important for people to be
able to try and help people go into
processing if they're having a hard time
by putting them in the subcortical brain
what are you smelling what are you
tasting what are you feeling how does
your body want to move where is the
(32:04):
tension what does it feel like not just
hot cold tight does it feel like TV
static does it feel like the color green
like make room for anything what do you
feel outside your body do you feel
heavier than the room lighter than the
room you're saying that your chest feels
heavy is it heavy like pushing down is
it heavy like you're struggling to hold
it up and your legs are tight as it's is
it heavy like you're it's pulling you to
(32:25):
the floor pushing down on your chest you
know all those questions help people go
what I hadn't thought about that and
then they're experiencing more and it is
your job to help them learn to think
this way so that they can process this
stuff and
you know the language of brain spawning
is really like the trainings it's based
I'm guessing I haven't asked David
Graham this but it looks like he's very
(32:46):
into existentialism and Chaos Theory
um which if you've read the Jurassic
Park Book way back when it's the little
propeller thing that Michael Crichton
threw in there to give it some spiritual
uh thematic depth
um but this idea that like we can never
know anything that everything is just so
complicated that one change can make
this butterfly effect and uh you know
I'm not an expert on any of that I'm a
(33:07):
little bit more mystical like I'm using
more jungian language about like going
down to Plate face to places underneath
your life that at the time you didn't
think you could survive but when you go
back into it to face them that you can't
take everything you know with you you
can't take the ego from with you when
you go back in you might be two or you
might be four and you don't have the
protection of your intellect and all the
(33:27):
things that you know now neither one of
those is right or wrong but I think in
the existential kind of uh Chaos Theory
language that he's using when he writes
those trainings about like
and that you want to push people and you
want the provider needs to just be open
to anything happening absolutely be open
to anything happening but if nothing is
(33:47):
happening that's not being open if
you're doing the same thing over and
over and over again and the person is
not going into processing or if you're
trying to get somebody to process that's
not being open another thing that I do
which is probably a little bit against
the rules as I said you know the glasses
have an activation spot and they also
have and there's an activation I and
there's also an activation spot right
(34:08):
well sometimes when somebody's just
telling me I can see the spot but
they're not considering it they're like
I don't feel anything this doesn't work
you know it's a very resistant person
who needs to be sold on this because it
is weird I didn't believe this worked
until I did it I mean you know you're
fine to doubt it
um you know there's I can see them
feeling a little bit but they're moving
their head
I will put the activation glass on and
(34:31):
then I will hit an activation spot which
makes the little trauma response too
strong right I'm not saying just dive in
and do this to somebody okay but there
are people who have needed help feeling
that this is a real thing and they need
help validating this themselves and I'll
put that on for just a second and then
whoa okay just a second like when I've
turned that spot up to 11 and you're
(34:51):
really strongly feeling that then that
means that you're able to accept that
it's real we're not fighting about
whether or not this works anymore
because you just felt it and then okay
that looks like it's a little bit too
strong is that a little bit too strong
well then let's take the glasses off and
do it slower maybe we need to use the
resource classes but we're no longer you
know debating if it's real or not you've
already felt it you understand that it's
(35:12):
working and now we're rolling
um I I don't do that with everybody
usually the activation Eye Activation
spotting is when somebody's processed it
so much and we're really trying to
squeeze the lemon and get everything up
out of the spot it's already come down
so much what the distress was and we're
just trying to get the last little bit
um sometimes I'll do that I don't
recommend processing that way I'm not
(35:33):
saying that you just turn it up to 11
use the activation spot with the
activation glasses and then you know
make somebody just process way too much
that's just too much but if somebody's
having a really hard time feeling it or
or admitting to themselves that this eye
position actually is activating a trauma
sometimes that's a good way to sell this
procedure because they'll immediately
(35:54):
feel it and then I think that will lead
them more into feeling and more into
trusting you in the process and then you
can follow the comment and see where it
goes
um so I don't know
um if you all have questions or anything
let me know but those are the things
that if you're a therapist or if you're
a client you may want to think about
doing or asking your therapist for
(36:14):
because
I just I don't know I've got a lot of
brain spotting videos and podcasts on
the internet and I get phone calls on
our voicemail from people who are out of
state out of the country sometimes and
all the time that I hear that the brain
spotting is not working and they're
asking me how do I get this to work
because they're not doing what you say
you do on there what they're describing
as somebody who's just holding the point
(36:35):
or encouraging the patient to feel while
the patient's not feeling I mean that's
too structured the person is getting
upset there you need to be a little bit
more open and do some different things
or suggest to your therapist I mean I
see a brain spotting therapist and I
said hey I bounce the pointer this way
I'm having a really hard time going into
processing could you try and do this and
she was open to it she did it with me it
(36:55):
worked great
um so that would be uh some of the
biggest barriers I see to when brain
spotting does not work I do think the
process works but I don't think that it
works for everybody and when it doesn't
work the majority of the time what I see
is that the clinician is just having a
hard time getting the person into
processing because they took away from
the training that as long as they just
(37:16):
wait it out the person will just start
the process eventually they don't have
to move the pointer they don't have to
change what they're saying they just
encourage you to feel and ask you if you
feel what where and then eventually
after session number 30 you'll just
start going I don't think that's right
um one that's just too much time most
people are going to leave and then two
uh I don't think that by doing the same
thing you get a different result so I
(37:38):
hope that uh that was helpful and uh I
will see you in brain spawning
foreign
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