In today's episode, we are joined once again by the incredible Kelly Jean-Philippe, as he shares the next chapter of his remarkable journey. Here are three intriguing talking points you can look forward to in this episode:
1. Navigating Through a Divided Congregation 2. A Crisis of Faith 3. Embracing Possibilities and Overcoming Obstacles
Don't miss out on the revelations and wisdom shared in today's episode as Kelly takes us on a profound journey of faith, doubt, and personal growth.
Follow us on Twitter & Instagram @EveryLPodcast
Here is a bit more about Kelly:
Kelly Jean-Philippe has been married to his wife for four years and became a father in the Spring of 2020 during the early and disquieted days of the global COVID pandemic.
He is also the host of the Welcome To Fatherhood Podcast, which is a platform Kelly created to chronicle his fatherhood journey, to glean wisdom and insight from other fathers and contributors; but most importantly, to also function as a future “library” for his son to connect to his early history.
Kelly is passionate about not withholding insight and lessons he learns along the way that can benefit anyone who may be going through something challenging. He strongly believes that taking oneself too seriously is the highest of contradictions, as life is already often very serious.
Kellly's social handle is: @welcometofathoodpod (IG)
You can also find his podcast on all popular podcast platforms, search Welcome to Fatherhood podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
the moment we opened our mouth to say something,they shut us down. And for the next two hours,
my friend and I did not say a word. And allof the conversation was being directed and
instructed by the higher ups who were tellingus, dictating to us, what we needed to do,
how we should have done it, and making it veryclear that there was no option. It was an ultimatum.
(00:26):
You either do this or you don't get. the supportthat you came here asking for. And there hasn't
been many times in my adult life that I feltdeflated. That was one of those times where
to this day, my friend and I would tell you,we both got in the car, the drive back to our
homes, we did not say a word to each other.
(01:01):
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I'm your host,Matt Brown and you're listening to the EveryL
Podcast. Each episode we'll have a differentguest come on and talk about when life hangs
you in L, is it really a loss or is it somethingelse? Because not every L is a loss. So sit
back, relax and do what every guy do to getcomfortable as we get into this. Let's go!
(01:32):
Welcome to another episode of Every Young Podcast.For every episode of different guests come
on and talk about the experiences they've gonethrough with a positive or otherwise and how
they navigate that. Was it, did they do it thehealthy way? Did they do it in an unhealthy
way? What support did they have in place? Becausewe've all kind of experienced times where we've
had plans made and we're like, right, thingsare gonna go off like this without a hitch.
(01:56):
And then a hitch happens and you react. I haveguests come on who share things as personal
to them and are willing to describe what theJ look like from the beginning, where they
feel the beginning up until said point wherethey feel they've come full circle. And today
I have a guest on who actually has been on previously.He's a fantastic guy. We've known each other
(02:21):
for a few years now, coming to think about it.And... I'm grateful for the season that we're
in where we're able to have so much in common,just get to know one another, even though we're
in different parts of the world. And I thinkthat's the beauty of the podcast itself as
well. It just connects people with other peoplewho can go through similar journeys, but not
necessarily to be in your parameters, so tospeak. But ultimately, this individual, I've
(02:45):
praised him up big time on the last episode,last two episodes actually, if you wanna go
check him out. I'm not gonna do too much ofit this time because I honestly feel fearful
for his head size because it may just explodeand he's wearing headphones right now so can't
be doing that but this gentleman is so steadfastin what he does he takes parenting very seriously
(03:05):
he's very he's very professional he's very goodat what he does and he does everything with
purpose and that's something that can only helpme be a better version of myself by just being
around someone like him and not only that he'sjust cool people he's just good vibes so People
go check out his podcast. He does have one.I'm not going to tell you what it is because
(03:26):
I'm going to let him drop it in his intro. ButI'm grateful for this individual that's going
to be talking and sharing a little bit moreof his journey from where he was to where he
is. Kelly, how are you doing, sir? Please introduceyourself. What's going on, Matt? Thank you
for the intro. Not much to really add. I'lljust restate my name. My name is Kelly Jean-Philippe.
(03:50):
Ooh, yeah. Philadelphia PA, Across the Pond,and the good ol' US of A. I host the Welcome
to Fatherhood podcast that you can find everywherepodcasts are available. And I've been doing
that for the past three years. And just a sidenote, since we have that thing in common also,
(04:12):
happy belated birthday to your twins. Oh, thankyou. You were born on the same day that my
oldest son was born, just two years later. Indeed,indeed. And happy birthday to him as well.
Thank you. So we've got Kelly back and as youlove his lovely voice, his silky voice, so
now I've got to stand a lot more deeper. Stopit. That old, yeah, you know. Fun fact, I actually
(04:39):
used to love Vin Diesel's voice, like back inPitch Black movie, like his voice was that
voice like, how do I swallow a frog and soundlike that? He just sounds on point. Like I
felt like if I was a woman, I'd probably gotpregnant from just listening to him like, Oh,
oh my gosh. He his voice. Oh, damn it. So yeah,hopefully I can replicate that in some way,
(05:01):
shape or form. Uh, let's have a look. So folks,you know how it runs. I get these sent over
to me. I don't know much more than what I seein the text form, but I'm happy to delve into
it, explore a little bit more. So Kenny saidthat he would like to talk about the loss of
religious identity. So that's interesting tome, because that kind of makes me feel like,
(05:21):
and this is my personal opinion, just off thetake, is being involved in a religious setting,
maybe a church, and just kind of going throughemotions, but not really knowing who you are
and how you fit in with what you believe versuswhat rituals and what practices you are continuously
doing. But I'm happy to be corrected. Pleasesir, take it from the top and tell me what
(05:45):
happened. Yeah, so. The story goes back to thebeginning beginning, not like Genesis beginning,
you know what I mean? Like the beginning beginning.So I was raised in a family of Christians.
I mean, my mom's side of the family in particular,I have about three or four uncles who are pastors,
(06:08):
you know, went to seminary school and what haveyou. One of them recently graduated like a
year or two ago from seminary school. So. Religiouspractice and religion in my family, my mom's
side of the family is huge. My father, who wasof a different religious background when he
and my mom met, had to be converted to my mom'sreligion so that they could get married, that
(06:33):
kind of stuff. So that has been my upbringing.I see the world through religious lens or theological
lens, like that's just... That's all I knowand I don't know how to be anything other than
that. Also, culturally speaking, being raisedin a family where religion was so, or is still
(06:57):
so important, and particularly every singlemale who's born in the family, it's almost
like, hey, are you going to be a religious leaderalso? Are you gonna be a pastor? And that's
like the trajectory that the families kind ofpush you into. I always had a sense growing
(07:17):
up that that's what my destiny would be like,because my mom made it very clear from the
beginning. She would tell stories of when Iwas first born and I had some medical complications
and how she prayed and she was like, Lord, ifyou deliver my son, then you can take him into
your service. And so she was always like, youare destined to be a pastor. And early on I
(07:39):
was like, hell no, I'm not. Because Too manyof my family members are already doing that.
And I've always been not necessarily a rebel,but someone who wants to blaze his own trail,
right? Like I, it has to make sense for me todo something before I go ahead and do it. And
not just because everybody else is doing it,I'm gonna do it also. Oh, well, this is important
(08:01):
too. So eventually, if you go back and you listento the first time that I was on this wonderful
platform, I spoke about a very devastating breakupthat kind of changed the trajectory of my life.
The result of that is that I myself ended upgoing to seminary school, womp, like all the
(08:25):
things that I said I wouldn't do. I ended updoing it anyway, but it was very clear to me
during seminary. I felt a sense of dread anddead endedness as I was sitting in a class
and the professor was painting this hypotheticaland based on the way that I responded to the
(08:45):
hypothetical, he made it very clear that I wasa young idealist and that the real world would
not treat me so kindly. And I was like, thereis no way in hell. I'm going to graduate with
this degree, a masters of divinity, go lookfor a pulpit position and then just let the
(09:06):
rest of my days wither doing that. and likebabysitting people. To me, that was just the
way that it felt. So I said, nah, I'm not doingthat. Found another route, ended up in chaplaincy,
which has been great for me because it fitsmore my personality. That being said, not that
(09:27):
the background is established. Because churchis such an important part of who I am, even
though I have my issues and displeasures andwhatever, I'm a deep thinker, I like to think
that. And one of the topics of conversationsthat has always interested me are theological
(09:47):
topics, regardless of the topic. I've alwayswanted to be plugged in and I've always been
plugged in to a church community my whole life.Back in 2019-ish, like summer of 2019 if I
remember correctly, something started happeningat the church that I belonged to. where the
(10:10):
higher powers that govern the,
I don't even know how to explain it, but thestructure of my religious affiliation is you
have a conference that is composed of a networkof churches. And so the conference, who itself
(10:38):
is underneath a more general conference, allthese tiers of hierarchy, whatever, they have
say into who gets placed where and for how longand all of that stuff. So unfortunately, our
senior pastor passed away suddenly of a heartattack and that completely sent our congregation
(11:07):
into a tizzy because the church that I belongedto was predominantly a young adult oriented
church. All of us were in our mid-20s to early30s, some even earlier 20s, working professionals,
some had already started their families. Sowe were young adults and we wanted to do things.
(11:34):
different than the churches that our parentsand grandparents came from, right? Never really
challenging like the core pillars, but definitelyraising concerns, which we were then labeled
rebels for because you just don't do that kindof stuff. So long story short, our pastor passes
(11:57):
away. We asked our higher-ups if we were goingto get a pastor and they said, No, but we came
to find out later that through some backdoorway, they were trying to send someone to the
church to try to redirect the focus of the churchtowards a more traditional style service. We
(12:21):
had a non-traditional style service. We didn'tcare how people showed up. We had live music.
We had a live band. Guys would go and... andlike jeans and t-shirts and stuff like that.
I mean, it was just like, we ate meat at thechurch, which apparently, you know, the traditional,
(12:42):
you just don't do those types of things. Sowe were trying to break away from that because
we felt like, you know, the world is changingand we need to change along with it. And the
way that our parents did things while we'renot condemning it is just not fitting to whatever.
So that caused a rift within the congregationand the body when we found out that the politics
(13:11):
of our higher ups were really influencing howthings were happening. And some of the guys,
if not most of the guys decided, you know what,we're going to start our own independent thing
somewhere else. Well, we were labeled all sortsof things by the higher ups. You know, we were
told all sorts of things. And that was that.But where I come into the mix is that now I
(13:37):
am in between this fractioning that occurredin the congregation because I have deep ties
and deep relationships with people on both sidesof the aisle. And now it seemed like people
had drawn a line in the sand or were forcedto draw a line in the sand. one group left,
(14:03):
which was the majority of the congregation,and a small remnant remained. And they were
asking me to now step up and take on a leadershiprole, which would have sent a clear message
to the majority group that left that I was goingto hitch my wagon to their horse, but I couldn't
(14:25):
do that because of my ties to the other. SoI felt like in between and I couldn't be neutral.
So that's number one. Number two, because ofmy personal seminary experience, there were
tenants of our faith tradition that always botheredme, and I started to question certain things.
And as a result of this thing and not beingable to find a church community, and then the
(14:49):
pandemic happened in 2020, so now I am withouta church community. I have all of these questions,
and people are just like, lying in the sandand I am in no man's land. So for the first
time in my life, I was experiencing a crisisthat I just didn't know how to resolve. And
(15:16):
I felt out of sorts. And I was in so much distressbecause here is an aspect of my identity that
has now been, it just felt like it was it wasbeing ripped away from me or whatever the feeling
was, it just was not a good feeling, Matt. Thatsounds a lot to take on board. Was that over
(15:41):
a long period of time or was it quite a shortturnaround from when he passed? It was maybe
within a year or so. Wow. Yeah. Faster passedwithin a year and then all of these things
started to cascade and yeah. while we were stillgrieving and trying to figure things out and
(16:02):
what have you. And all of these things werejust being put in motion. And yeah, once, once
we found out that the higher ups were playinggames and did not take us seriously and, um,
they had other plans that were completely againstour values and what have you, you know, and,
and to, to be fair, there was a history of thathappening, like the relationship between that
(16:27):
particular congregation and our former higherups had always been tenuous. On the one hand,
they were like, yeah, it's awesome. There'sa young adult oriented church that is doing
good things and we want to support it. And onthe other hand is like, well, if they don't
do things our way, then we're not going to givethem the support. And I was, I was part of
(16:49):
a conversation, a face to face conversationwith the higher ups of that conference, me
and another friend of that same congregation,when we went to ask them to support an initiative
that we wanted to start at our congregation,and they basically shut us down the moment
(17:13):
we opened our mouth to say something. They shutus down, and for the next two hours, my friend
and I did not say a word. And All of the conversationwas being directed and instructed by the higher
ups who were telling us, dictating to us whatwe needed to do, how we should have done it.
And, you know, making it very clear that therewas no, there was no option. It was an ultimatum.
(17:39):
You either do this or you don't get the supportthat you came here asking for. And there hasn't
been many times in my adult life that I feltdeflated. That was one of those times where
to this day, my friend and I would tell you,we both got in the car, the drive back to our
(17:59):
homes, we did not say a word to each other.Cause both of us were quite deflated as a result
of that. So it had been years where the relationship,you know, in the public spectrum, it was like,
yay, good for you guys. But in the private conversations,it was like, They were setting us up for failure.
(18:20):
So when we took matters into our own hands andI, you know, this was the first time that I
ever been a part of that. And like I said, myidentity is tied to my religious tradition,
to my ideology. I mean the whole nine and nowfor the first time in my life, it was like.
Theologically speaking, I am in a very uncertainplace. The community that. I invested a lot
(18:47):
of my personal resources in, was now split andshambles a pandemic and becoming a new father
and trying to figure all of that stuff out.And it was just like, I was free falling. And
how did that impact your faith at the time?Because if you'd pour so much resource into
it, clearly, you know, you studied, you're wellversed in it or you believe in it, because
(19:12):
it's part of your culture, it's part of yourupbringing. And now... And this is me putting
my personal little topic on top of it is asmuch as you're all about the faith, you believe
in your religion with your relationship withGod and now you're seeing the flesh dominate
what you feel like you have no place being here.But if this is happening now, how long has
(19:33):
this been going on for? And was it that it wasless overt before? Did that play on you at
all? Yeah, man. I mean, it just showed me itreinforced a lot of the things that I had felt
during my two and a half years in seminary.Personally, I did not have a good experience
going to seminary, particularly for that reason,because it became my experience exposed me
(20:00):
to a side of what it means to be involved inreligion and church and. of particular traditions
and what have you that is scary. Not that, I'mnot saying that it shouldn't be that way because
listen, at the end of the day, we're all humanbeings, we are all flawed, we are all trying
(20:21):
to figure this thing out. But the systems thatwe've created and that I was exposed to now
being in the inner mechanisms of this thing.were frightening. And my seminary experience
was one that was characterized by just absolutehorror and a lot of key moments. And man, I
(20:51):
remember one of my professors even said, wehad to take the psychological test as part
of our application process. And he was the onewho evaluated the tests. And then he would
send his recommendation body of, you know, thegoverning body of the seminary and would say,
this person is fit for ministry and based onthe results, this person is not fit for ministry.
(21:15):
So this person shouldn't be granted access toor an acceptance letter to come to seminary.
And we're sitting in this man's class and heflat out said, some of you that are here have
no business being here. I gave my personal recommendation,my professional recommendation, based off of
(21:39):
your assessments that you sent back. Yet, theykeep accepting everybody. And so some of you
are gonna go out and do damage to people. Imean, he said that, bro. And I was like, wait
a minute. So this is just like a machine that'sjust cranking out things. And I was horrified
by that.
(22:12):
So I wanna say like, being there was the beginningof my deep questioning of the tenants of this
faith that I had inherited since the momentI was born. So now nothing was as simple as,
oh, this is what I've always believed. Now Istarted asking the why question, like why is
(22:34):
this that way? And I am going to say this witha level of certainty. I don't care what organization,
what affiliation someone has, the moment youstart asking certain why questions, you paint
a target on your back and you start to rufflethe feathers a little bit. And I, you know,
(23:01):
I don't think I've caught the attention of anyonehigher up who would care about my lowly peasant
status. But it was important for me to start.examining, questioning for myself the reasons
for the reasons why I believe the things thatI was taught to believe. So when it comes to
(23:22):
praying, did that impact that at all? Yeah,because my prayers were like, God, what the
hell is going on here? You know, I need youto help me make sense of this. What never happened,
I never lost my sense of personal faith. I didstart to lose the religious label that had
(23:51):
always been attached to that faith. For me,it was always, this is the religious label
that I have, and as a result of that, it producesthis kind of faith. In that moment, I realized,
no, I have my own faith, and I don't necessarilyneed a particular label on that faith. And
(24:18):
that is something that within that traditionis a no-no. I mean, there is an internal thinking
and mentality within the tradition that I wasa part of that makes it very clear. outside
(24:40):
of that label. In fact, I'll share this storywith you. When the fraction happened in the
congregation, one of the higher-ups were sentto our congregation to kind of come down and,
you know, lay down the law. And this man said,without mincing any words, anyone who belongs
(25:01):
to this group that has left the congregationhas basically sealed their fate. So according
to certain people, we are not just on the expresstrain, but we are driving the express train
to hell itself. And you know, that was off-putting,but like I was saying earlier, there is an
(25:24):
internal culture and belief system within thattradition that justifies someone of a higher
status like that to make a claim like that aboutpeople. And it's just one of those things.
That sounds harsh. It is harsh. And very difficultto wrap your head around because I've had my
(25:46):
personal experience with that. And when I getinto something, I'm really into it. So for
those that don't know, I got baptized at age17 and I was in it. I was in it, in it, in
it. Problem is that because I was in it so much,I saw a lot of stuff behind the scenes and
it wasn't just. at that church, it was, it seemedto be any church I went to, people just felt
(26:10):
really comfortable enough around me to justshow me what I didn't want to see. And it got
to the point where I had someone, I love hereven to today, she would laugh at me because
she'd watch me at church and they'll sing asong. And it'll be something like, I wake up
in the morning and I praise your name and allthis stuff. And I'm like, You don't want me
(26:31):
to lie, but you're trying to get me to singthis song. I'm not a morning person. So why
am I going to lie to you and tell you I'm goingto wake up in the morning singing? I don't
do it. I barely even, I'm not even happy thatis gone. Like I promise you I'm vexed and you're
telling me to lie. And then I say, you're sofunny. I'm not trying to be funny. I'm honestly
just here. And it took a lot for me to sortof work out what I wanted and why I felt the
(26:58):
way I did, but I I think I'm at peace with myselfin terms of how I am and what I'm about. But
initially it wasn't the case for me. And there'sa lot of soul searching and realizing I couldn't
talk to a lot of people because what I was sayingpotentially was, they're a white towel and
I'm a speck of dirt. Once you get a speck ofdirt on it, it's not like, oh, but there's
(27:21):
still more white than dirt. No, no, I've contaminatedthat. So as soon as I come to them and go,
oh, you happy, you clappy, yeah. Have you thoughtabout this? and all of a sudden it spreads.
That's how I felt. Did all your family attendthe same church or were they in their own locations,
at their own churches and whatnot? No, we attended,like in terms of the same church building,
(27:45):
yes, there were times when the families wholived in the same city, same parts of the city
would attend primarily the same church buildingacross. the family, you know, in different
locations, we all attended the same denomination,yeah, on a consistent basis. I mean, like I
(28:07):
said, I have four uncles who are, two of whichare like really popular preachers within, you
know, the Haitian community of that denomination.And it's just like, my last name carries weight
within the Haitian. population of that denomination,right? Like I went to the Dominican Republic
(28:32):
in 2019, around the time that all of this washappening to officiate a wedding for friends
of mine. And we went to a Haitian church inthe Dominican Republic and one of the church
goers there. Afterwards came and spoke to meto tell me that he knows my uncle because they
(28:53):
used to be buddies back in the days In Haitiand he's like, oh, are you really his nephew?
Like this person? so it carries weight whereverI go, which is something that I Absolutely
do not like it makes me uncomfortable and byvirtue of my by virtue of my training, by virtue
(29:16):
of my profession, as far as uncomfortable asI feel with all of this, I still do have a
masters of divinity and I still do have a, Iam a licensed minister. So, excuse me, so I
do go places to participate in church and preachand do like, I still do these things. I still
(29:42):
do these things today. in a different way now,but I still do them today. And the level of
pomp and circumstance surrounding someone ofmy position, you know, like the pastor, whether
it's the local pastor or the visiting pastorand how everyone sort of caters to and just
(30:04):
like, no pastor, cut in front of the line ofthe people who are as hungry as you are to
go and eat. And I'm just like, nah, I'm cool.people are hungry as I'm hungry. Like I don't
need any special privilege or anything likethat just because like, no. But there's so
much, there's so much stuff about how peoplewithin my tradition carry out their beliefs
(30:31):
and it's, all of those things have always botheredme. And so this crisis in right before the
pandemic in 2020 was the worst thing that couldhappen to me, but the best thing that could
happen to me. Because now I was at a neutralplace. Now I didn't have a congregation that
(30:58):
I was affiliated with. Now since according tothat conference official, I was on the express
train to hell anyway. So I was like, bet. IfI'm going to hell, let's just go straight to
hell. and figure this thing out. So now I startedasking and researching all of the questions
that I felt like I couldn't publicly do before.And I started looking into things. And man,
(31:24):
I rediscovered the reason why I had always beenattached to this theological line of thinking.
So I discovered this resource that has beenreally helpful to me is this organization based
(31:44):
here in the United States. And these guys, theyput out a weekly podcast talking about the
Bible and reading it and context. I mean, justtotally different than what I had been exposed
to in seminary. So I went to two and a halfyears of seminary by listening to one podcast
(32:07):
episode. I learned more in an hour and changedand I had learned in two and a half years of
seminary. So then they were producing contentthat was addressing the very questions that
I had always been asking. So then I'm rediscovering,oh, this is the reason why I'm one of those
(32:30):
people on planet earth who believes in God.And now I can actually build a. reason and
response a case for why that's the case. Itwasn't so much more, you know, this is what
I inherited since I was born. And I realizedthat I didn't need any particular religious
(32:52):
interpretation. And what I had started to realizeis that a lot of the things that I used to
preach myself as a representative of that denominationwere so harmful to people. And so I was gaining
this new perspective that made me feel so, what'sthe word I'm looking for? I was horrified at
(33:19):
myself and my participation in what I saw asthis machine that was just cranking out people
who sounded the same, who thought the same,who did the same things. over and over and
over again with very little room for creativity,with very little room for interpretation, with
(33:47):
very little room because everything was justcookie cutter. And I was part of that cookie
cutter. And I'm not bashing tradition, I'm notbashing rituals. Human life is lived in traditions
and rituals, whether they're religious or not.So that's not that's not the point. Anyone
who says to me, Church is just a whole bunchof or religion is just a whole bunch of rituals
(34:09):
and religion I'm like, okay So you must be azombie and even if you are a zombie you have
your own rituals and tradition so miss me withthat one, but I started to realize that I didn't
need the filter of the tradition that I hadalways been a part of to Make me feel like
(34:32):
I was living in a way that was honoring thefaith in God that is in me. So that was like
the best thing that could happen to me. Interesting.I'm gonna come back to a couple of things on
there, but one of them I'll answer your question.So with your family being that heavily involved,
(34:52):
how did it make the conversation you had withthem going forward after your experience prior
to the pandemic that is? So what's interestingis that because I graduated seminary and I
did not pursue a pulpit ministry job or position.Most people in my family looked condescendingly
(35:20):
on me as a result of that. To the point thatmy, my own mom, and I can't forget this, my
own mom in a conversation that. My sister andI were having, and she was questioning something,
some reference in the Bible, and she had heropinion about it. I think she and my mom were
(35:45):
going back and forth. And then she solicitedmy opinion, and I was about to open my mouth
to give my opinion. My mother said somethingto the effect of, wait, what is Kelly going
to say to me that I don't already know? So what,he's gonna tell me about the Bible now?
(36:07):
That was very hurtful because that communicatedvery clearly that, number one, you have no
position, you have no platform to speak on becauseyou're not like a pastor-pastor like your uncles
are and like the other people are in the tradition.So we don't have conversations about any of
(36:32):
that. I just... have heard through the grapevinesand I felt the looks and I felt the, when I
first told one of my pastor uncles what I wasdoing as a chaplain, it was like, oh, okay,
cool. There was no, it was more like a, oh yeah,that's nice type of thing. And humbly speaking,
(37:03):
Not every pulpit minister can be a chaplain,but I will say a good number of chaplains would
make excellent pulpit ministers. Because chaplaincy,at least in the way that I've experienced it,
it teaches you to deal with people and to listento people and to relate to people who are going
(37:29):
through real life things. truly makes an impact.And it's not so focused on maintaining a particular
view or interpretive tradition or, you know,dogma or any of that stuff. I feel like I'm
(37:49):
bashing these folks, but I'm really not, dude.I'm just speaking from my experience. Do you
know what? I get it. And... I'm just tryingto put myself in your shoes to try and understand.
where you feel you can get out to just breathe,to just feel that you have time. But then you
(38:12):
did allude to it saying that you had COVID hitand you was allowed to just remove yourself
from that situation. But I'd imagine, and correctme if I'm wrong, were there people still reaching
out to you just as like that was happening anyway,because they still wanted to have traction,
they wanted that thing to move. How did younavigate that space when there some people
still say, yeah, let's get the momentum going.You're kind of like... I'm going to go hype
(38:35):
it until this thing's all done. Yeah. So afterthe whole split happened in the congregation,
the majority found a way to set up a new settingand then, or new setup. And then they just
started doing their own thing. And no one fromthat side reached out to me for a while. The
(38:58):
small minority that stayed, like I said, theywanted me to. hitch my horse to their wagon
or my wagon to their horse, whichever way theanalogy works best, so that I could be one
of the prominent leaders of that small groupat the time. I remember attending a house meeting
(39:19):
where they were trying to talk about how torestructure things with the current pastor
that the conference had sent to right the wrongsof. the congregation that was there before
the split. And I didn't like the attitude thatthey had towards the majority group that left.
(39:41):
I didn't like some of the expressions that werebeing made because prior to that fraction,
we were all really cool people. I mean, we stillare really cool people, but that fraction really
created this divisive thinking. where all ofa sudden someone that, you know, people who
(40:02):
were cool with each other two weeks ago werenow, one of them was clearly being cast as
the enemy and that didn't sit well with me.And so I remember attending that meeting and
because of the pressure that I felt being inthat meeting, I agreed to take on a leadership
(40:26):
role with the small minority. And then whenI got home after that meeting, I was horrified.
And I thought about it, I spoke with my wife,and then I called her and I said, or I spoke
with my wife and I said, I don't think I cando this. I really don't think I can do this.
So I called the people that I had said yes to,and I said to them, listen, I am so sorry,
(40:51):
but I can't, I can't be what you guys are askingme to be I am caught in the middle here and
I don't want to favor any side. So that kindof now casted me in a position of, so whose
side are you on? Are you on our side or areyou on their side? And I'm like, I'm on nobody's
(41:17):
side. I'm not even neutral right now. I don'tknow what the heck I am. I just know that I'm
not, I can't affiliate myself with either sidebecause this wound was too fresh. And so I
just sat home and man, I remember just beingso depressed for a little while. And I just
(41:38):
felt like my, like the people that I would,that I love and really wanna hang out with,
like I didn't have access to them anymore, youknow? And it, yeah, it felt, I felt very isolated,
Matt. It was very isolating. Isolating to thepoint that I wondered if there was any value,
(42:04):
there was any meaning, there was any sense ofany of this stuff. I just felt extremely isolated.
But the breath of fresh air was finding thisorganization that allowed me to feel plugged
in to a larger virtual community of people whowere engaging this podcast. who were engaging
(42:26):
with their material, people from all aroundthe country, people from all around the world,
people who were having and entertaining andconcerned about the deep theological questions
and existential questions that I had been thinkingabout and now was feeling more intensely as
a result of all of this stuff. Like I felt pluggedinto people that I'd never seen before, but
(42:51):
I knew that I was not the only one asking thesesort of. sorts of questions and having these
concerns. And this resource was like a breathof fresh air that helped get me through this
crisis moment. Interesting, because when youmentioned about how you accepted it and then
(43:12):
went back, you know, spoke to your wife andwent back to them, a scripture did come to
mind. And obviously, I've never done this before,but I'm always up for something new. There
is a scripture that I love and I love the bookof Proverbs and it's for chapter six, it says,
my son, if you've put up security for your neighbor,if you're shaking hands in pledge for a stranger,
(43:34):
you've been ensnared by the words of your mouth.So do this, my son, to free yourself. Since
you have fallen into your neighbor's hands,go to the point of exhaustion and give your
neighbor no rest. Allow no sleep to your eyes,no slumber to your eyelids. Free yourself like
a gazelle from the hand of the hunter, likea bird from the snare of the fowler." And it
(43:58):
just, you know, it's not directly linked toit, but you was quick to just go and say, I
know I said yes. but to just allow me to sleep,to allow me to move on because every time I
sleep, and I said that to you, that's anotherday still in your cage, it's still in your
claws. You didn't allow that to happen. Youwas like, you know what, need to hold my hands
(44:23):
up. I said yes. Upon reflection, I have to correctmyself. And you did a very valiant thing that
I think a lot of us struggle with. I'll holdmy hands up, I'll struggle with that. How old
are you around this time?
Oh, 34, 35. Okay. So, still, an age that somepeople still struggle with to do certain stuff
(44:52):
like that, because, you know, a lot of us arepeople pleased, unfortunately, and it just
seemed nice that you wasn't able to allow that,that's the aspect of your personality to dominate
the situation by saying, oh, I've already givenmy word, so I'm gonna hold fast and do it.
Yeah, I mean, think about the fact that, likeI said, I was born and raised in this stuff.
(45:16):
And I went to college and I still came backand I was like, yeah, there's still value in
this. Here I am and at a crucial moment in myadult life and this crisis is now happening.
I mean, to me, that was just like, why couldn'tthis happen when I was in college, it would
(45:40):
have been much easier, you know, cause hereI am learning all sorts of new things and rubbing
elbows with all sorts of different people andlifestyles and this and that. And I'm like,
Oh, this is awesome. And I was still like, no,there's, there's still value and, you know,
believing in something, you know, and now at30 something I'm married, I have a child on
(46:04):
the way and all of this. And I'm just like,I spent. thousands of dollars pursuing a degree.
You know what I mean? And it's like, now thisthing is happening. And it's just like, come
on. So that was what added to the deep distressthat I felt. Cause then I felt like I was losing
(46:25):
a part of myself. How do you feel about it now?Do you still feel that you've lost a part of
yourself? I feel like I did lose that part ofmyself. but it was so freeing to have lost
that part of myself. So what would you call,what is that part? How would you articulate
it? The part of myself that had put more importance,more value to the, to the label of the tradition
(47:02):
that I belong to. Like, to make that part ofmy identity. You know, there are people who,
there are people who take great pride and saying,or in naming, not forcefully, but like putting
it out as like, the most important thing, thetradition that they belong to, right? Like,
(47:28):
I am a Catholic, for example, or I am a Pentecostal.
I remember one of the guests that you had ona while back, he was dating a young lady who
was a Seventh-day Adventist. And I know personallythat Seventh-day Adventists are people who
(47:52):
take pride in, I am a Seventh-day Adventist.So for me, it was like, that was a thing for
me too. I was just like, this is who I am. andto have lost all of that, to have, for as hurtful
and as bizarre as that conference official'swords were, that clearly drew the line in the
(48:18):
sand. You guys cannot call yourself by the samename of the larger organization. Because if
you do, and you have no affiliation with us,there will be legal ramifications. He said
that. He said those words in love or just nolove there, homie. There was no love there.
(48:45):
It was a threat. It was basically a threat disguisedas this is the word of the Lord. Like that's
what happened. It was clearly manipulative andit had all the wrong intentions behind it.
(49:10):
So for as messed up as those words were, thegift inherent in that is that it freed me from
having to retain that label that's so defined,not just my life and my personal history, but
(49:31):
that of a large part of my family. When I tellyou my mother's side of the family, siblings,
cousins, I mean like generations belonging tothis tradition. So, you know, it's not as simple
(49:51):
as, you know, it's not as simple as when, youknow, if I remember correctly, your family
is Jamaican descent. Yeah? So it's not as simpleas, you know, you're Jamaican and then you...
your family migrates to the UK and then youlike get naturalized and it's like, okay, I'm
(50:15):
still Jamaican, but now I have a passport thatsays I am a citizen of the UK and it doesn't
necessarily feel like you've lost somethingas much as you're adapting to a new culture
and right. This was like, if you are In my family,as it pertains to my family, if you are born
(50:39):
in this family, you carry this religious labeland it shapes everything about our communities,
our lives, our families, and our decisions,who we can marry, who we can't marry, like
all of that stuff. You marry outside of thereligion, you get the side eye. You know what
I mean? Like that kind of stuff. So to be ableto lose that, it was like, so then who am I?
(51:05):
And the big aha moment was I never needed thatto begin with. Like that was never what made
me who I am. There was so much more that makesme who I am. And that, that I had been putting
so much value on was not necessarily valuableat all.
(51:40):
So that aha moment, what was the tipping pointfor that? Once I started to rediscover the
reasons why, once I started to formulate myown reasons why I am a person of faith. Once
(52:02):
I started to understand the Bible, which isthis tool. that informs my faith on its own
terms without any of the religious filters thatI had inherited for 30 some odd years. Once
(52:23):
I started to understand or to come to an understandingof what this whole story means, this whole
story of the Bible, what role I play in it,how it informs or how it can inform how I see
(52:46):
myself and how I see my community, how I seemy neighbors, how I see how the world functions.
Once I started to really dig deep into thesequestions that really mattered to me and the
responses that I was coming to, the discoveriesthat I was making through, you know, with this
(53:09):
organization and the resources that they produce.It was like, whoa, man, look at that. What
had been lacking for me for the majority of30 something years, several months of a pandemic
has given that to me for free. Like that wasjust the best thing. Sounds absolutely amazing.
(53:41):
So to get to that point, you now feel elated,you feel free. Unfortunately, I don't wanna
sort of use this phrase, but it's a very popularsong. The shackles were gone. You was able
to sort of dance. The shackles were definitelygone. You was just living it up. I'd imagine
it's like stepping outside of a dark chasm andjust being able to be, oh, I can't open my
(54:05):
eyes. But when you can, you're. marvelled byhow many different colours there are and how
beautiful the scenery is and whatever else.The weight of judgment can be very heavy upon
our shoulders and we sometimes don't even knowabout it. Yeah. Did you deal with any of this
in an unhealthy manner? Yeah, dude, I startedto get really angry retrospectively. And when
(54:31):
I would talk to people, I started bashing. thefolks in the tradition that I had left behind.
And to me, why is that unhealthy? Because itput me in the same stratosphere, in the same
category, in the same boat as what they haddone to me and to the majority group that had
(55:00):
left. Like I didn't see any difference betweenme and that conference official that basically
sent all of us to hell because I was now, youknow, the one who was wagging the finger and
pointing the finger and X, Y, and Z. So to me,that was unhealthy. And I needed to find a
way to reconcile, you know, all of this excitementthat I had, this new perspective and understanding
(55:26):
without becoming the judgmental person myself.And what occurred to me is that, you know what,
man, we're all trying to figure it out. We'reall trying to make lemonade with the lemons
that life throw our way. And just because someoneis struggling to squeeze the juice out of their
lemon doesn't mean that they can't make lemonade.You know what I mean? So that's where I settled
(55:53):
on. And it was like, okay. I understand whythat perspective would lead people to say certain
things, to think a certain way. I get that.I have a different perspective now. It's not
better, it's not worst. It's a different perspective.So now the challenge is, how can I still look
(56:16):
across my own face to the person that has adifferent perspective than me and still treat
them with the dignity, kindness, and respectthat they deserve regardless of the perspective
they have? And how can I still communicate tothem the value of my perspective without putting
(56:37):
down their perspective? And so that has beenmy approach now in talking to people who are
deeply rooted in that tradition. It's like understanding,look, I'm not discrediting anything that you
believe. This is just a different perspectivethat I would like to offer. And if you're able
(57:03):
to engage in a conversation like that, thenthat's gold. Brilliant. So going through that
experience, if it's not an L, what are you callingit? If it's not an L, what am I calling it,
Matt? I'm calling it freedom. Nice. Yeah. Theshackles have fallen off, bro. Very nice. Free
(57:28):
at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, Iam free at last. That's good, that's good.
So if you could rewind the clock and go backto a point in time when you was going through
it, when would that be? And what would you sayto your younger self to help you not give in?
(57:54):
Hmm. I don't know when that would be. Maybethat would have to be some point within the
gestational period. If I could hear myself andI would say, hey, dude, you're going to be
all right. I don't know. I honestly don't know.I don't know if my mentality back then would
(58:16):
have been receptive to my mentality now.
Yeah. Cause I can tell you of instances whereI was one of those kids who believed in my
religious, my former religious traditions somuch that I used to tell some kids my age that
(58:45):
if they didn't do ABC, that they were in dangerof going to H-E-L-L. Like I was that guy. I
used to be that guy as a teen, bro, as a teen.And there were some in air quotes, sermons
(59:07):
that I preached that I made some really boldclaims. And over the past three years or so,
some of them have been flashing back in my mind.And I'm horrified that these words came out
of my mouth because I don't know the damagethat I caused people who were listening to
(59:32):
my words during those worship services, whereI stood up to say, this is the word of God.
I mean, it's a really chilling thought to thinkthat there are people out here who have heard
(59:52):
me as a representative of the word of God orwhatever. And because of my... Because I was
irresponsible with what I was doing and whatI was saying, I conveyed something detrimental
(01:00:12):
to them that is not true or is not the case.So Yeah. So yeah, it's obviously I still, I
take this responsibility very seriously. Um,you know, for all the talk about religion and
(01:00:37):
all of that over the past several years andyou know, how much religion has hurt people
and whatnot. Like I, I empathize with that becauseI used to, I just confess I've done that. And
it's been done to me.
Now I remind folks that Not everyone who standsup behind a pulpit whenever people worship
(01:01:10):
and says, this is the word of the Lord and arepreaching from the Bible, not everyone who
says this is the word of the Lord is actuallyspeaking the word of the Lord. And I used to
be one of those people. And what I try to donow within the congregation that So to close
(01:01:31):
the loop, eventually I made a decision to remainas a free agent. That's how I identified myself.
I remained as a free agent. But then I did endup going along with the majority that had left
(01:01:53):
off. So the ones who are on the express trainto hell. Like I'm driving that express train.
So I went along with them and what I've triedto do within that congregation now, which is
an independent congregation, is to hold us accountableto the history that we came from and to also
(01:02:16):
hold us accountable to developing people withinour congregation who are critical listeners
and critical thinkers. so that we don't getto the position of thinking that whatever we
say is gospel. So yeah, just, if anything, Ithink I'm trying to write as many of the wrongs
(01:02:41):
as I could possibly recall to mine in the waythat I help people now navigate their own moments
of spiritual crisis. Are you proud of your?achievements, as in are you proud of your achievements
since going through all that out to come outthe other end the way you are here and now
(01:03:05):
today? I am grateful for them. I'm gratefulfor the rough patch. I'm grateful for the moment
of crisis. I'm grateful for the rediscoveryof, or the discovery rather. of the faith that
I currently have. I'm grateful for the thingsthat I learned and that I knew and the faith
(01:03:35):
that I used to have. Yeah, I'm grateful forall of them. Proud, I don't think I did anything
necessarily to be proud of, but I'm gratefulfor all of those experiences. That's good.
I used to word proud because I think sometimesWe don't feel we can muster the strength or
can even see what things look like beyond righthere and right now and the all consuming feelings
(01:04:02):
that you're going through. And I think it'sreally important for people to always remember
that our heart and mind are in a constant battledaily because our heart wants us to feel good,
feel loved, feel valued, feel all the good feelings.doesn't wanna be lumbered down with burdens
or worries or concern. That's not what the heart'sabout. Heart's about just feelings and feelings
(01:04:24):
galore. The head, on the other hand, just wantsto survive. If I hook up my crook, I wanna
survive. But what about happiness? I don't care.If I can survive another day, I'm good. That's
what I want. I will do it. But it's cold outside.I don't care. Logically, it makes sense to
do this rather than do that. And you're alwayswrestling with, is it worth feeling good versus
(01:04:48):
getting a job done or getting what you want.And we're trying to achieve a balancing act,
a perfect equilibrium between the two. And forsometimes it feels like it works, other times
it doesn't feel like it works. But ultimately,when it comes to things like, are you proud
(01:05:09):
of your decisions? Are you proud of where you'vecome from? I think it can. For me personally,
and everyone's different, I completely respectthat. I think it's important that we should
be proud of some of the things we've overcomebecause there was no roadmap afforded to us.
(01:05:29):
There was no potential trailblazer in frontof us. This is a completely new off the grid
map that we are creating. It's a new chapterin a book that has not been written. that we
are writing. We're even making up words as we'regoing along in this. And it can be very scary.
So I'd like to think that people would be proudof where they're coming, well, proud of where
(01:05:55):
they are versus where they're coming from, especiallywith the lack of information. Even if they
had faith to side of a mustard seed, you stillhad faith and you still put that foot in front
of the other when it could have been easierto just sit there. close your eyes and just
wish it all away. So I think you don't, I thinkfor the sound of it, you've done an amazing
(01:06:20):
job, like just to navigate all that space andto not let that spin you in such a way that
your faith is completely gone and you furtherlose yourself and your identity of who you
are. But it sounds really encouraging that youhave that ability to still have a relationship
with your family. You're able to still instillwhat you feel is important. important to your
(01:06:44):
kids, feel that you can have that fellowshipwith your wife and other people who share similar
faith and ask those challenging questions, thosetough questions. There is a movie that I'll
recommend and it's called The Man From Earth.I don't know how many people watched it, but
it's definitely not a high budget movie, butit is so thought provoking. I've watched it
(01:07:06):
multiple times and I sit there and I watch itand I'm not gonna spoil it for people, but
it's just a matter of. It's a guy who doesn'tage. He's about to leave the area because he's
realizing that people clocking on that he'snot aging. And as he goes, there's a whole
bunch of people that come around to surprisehim, to help him pack and move on. But they're
all a series of professors. You've got a theologian,you've got a science professor, you've got
(01:07:31):
a historian, you've got all the different people.And then they hypothesize about what if a Neanderthal
stopped aging and walked through time. and theyeven cross about Jesus and what he did. And
I promise you, at some point it felt like Iwas blaspheming thinking about what this was
and getting excited about it. But ultimatelyit helped open my eyes to a world of possibilities
(01:07:55):
and not being allowed to question things forme is a red flag if anything else. Because
if you cannot question something, it means thatpotentially the foundation on which it was
built upon is shaky. best. You know, there'sa reason why before products get released to
(01:08:16):
the public, they go through stress tests, theyget tested to make sure that in theory, it's
sound, in practice, it's sound, put it in thehands of a toddler, it's broken. It's not fit
for purpose. It's not right. And we need tochallenge certain concepts and ideas. And it's
not to say that it's outright wrong. It couldjust mean that My interpretation of it today
(01:08:41):
is very much different to tomorrow, becausedepending on my circumstances, how I feel and
all sorts like that. But I absolutely love whatyou've shared. I love that you was open enough
to say those things. And I think a lot of people,if no one else I can, can relate to some of
those stuff where it feels heartful that youinvested so much of yourself into something.
(01:09:02):
And then it just happens to be one or a fewother people that you've held in. Not necessarily
in high regards personally, because you didn'tknow them like that, but you just felt like
you're in a position, you know, that's how yourun things, isn't it? You do things by the
spirit and... Right. Sorry, no affiliation.You just, no love, no hugs, no best wishes,
(01:09:26):
no... This is everything opposite to what you'vebeen teaching for the longest time, what's
going on? Is this just a business to you now?That's all it's been. And that can be hurtful.
And that's, I guess, I go so afraid with nevermeet your heroes because sometimes they can
let you let you down because what you thoughtof them and how you built them up in your head,
isn't necessarily how it is when you meet themin the flesh. So, yeah, man. Yeah. You said
(01:09:52):
something really important there that I justwant to emphasize the ability to the freedom
and ability to question, to ask questions ofThat's why I said in the beginning to question,
to understand the reason behind the reason whyI believe a certain thing. Like to me, that's
(01:10:16):
where the pay dirt is. There is a reason whywe believe everything or whatever it is that
we believe. What is the reason that we thinkthat that's a good reason to believe it? To
me, that's like a next level thought and understandingand questioning. And discovery and all of that
stuff. And to be able to ask those type of questionsand to be able to now be in a place where I
(01:10:43):
welcome people and I even encourage people toask those questions has been something that
I've gained from this experience. Now I canask questions without fear of reprimand or
feeling like, you know, if word gets to peoplewho are the higher ups, then I'm gonna be marked
(01:11:07):
as a rebel or heretic or whatever. Like, I don'tcare. Like, it doesn't matter to me anymore.
So if you're not willing to question or if you'renot allowed to question, then. Red flag. Yeah.
Red flag. Yeah, I could go on about that somuch, but never know, might be a solo episode
(01:11:34):
one day. But sir, what I'll ask you to do forthe next two minutes, please unapologetically
and selfishly plug yourself all that you'vegot going on, where the good folks can see
you and catch up with you. And if they wantto engage in conversation with you as well.
Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity. Soyou can catch the welcome to fatherhood podcast
(01:11:59):
anywhere that podcasts are available. It comesout every Wednesday in the United States beginning
at midnight on Wednesday. So that'd be aboutsix o'clock. If I'm not mistaking, I'll take
you wet for it. I think it's a six hour difference.So six AM. where you were at midnight, where
(01:12:25):
I'm at, um, on Instagram, you can find me atwelcome to fatherhood pod. Feel free to send
me a message. You can also email me at wt fatherhoodpodcast at gmail.com because WTF is not appropriate
because WTF is not appropriate. I did thinkabout abbreviating the title, but I was like,
(01:12:50):
nah, that's It got to be more professional thanWTF.
Recently on the podcast, I've been talking aboutmy personal experience with pregnancy loss
as my wife and I were growing our family. Andso anyone who, any man who is wanting support
(01:13:16):
or to talk to someone who has been through thatand is willing to open up and talk about your
experience. I'm always open to that. What else?Yeah, I think that's it. It's fine. We'll put
it in show notes so people can find it if theymissed it. Just make sure you don't put WTF
(01:13:37):
people. You just need to put rest of fatherhoodin there. Come on now. Yeah. WTF fatherhood.
podcast at gmail.com and welcome to fatherhoodpod on IG. Yes, indeed. So for a time around
you're meeting Kelly and what he's about, butI hope you guys enjoyed the conversation. It
was actually really good. Yeah, really weirdhow a lot of it does resonate with myself and
(01:14:04):
I guess I don't share that side of myself nomore. Well, not as much as I used to, just
because I think I know that it can scare peopleoff. rightly or wrongly, it is what it is.
If you like me, you like me and certain thingsshouldn't matter. It's not that, oh my gosh,
he's a Christian. He's trying to force feedme what? If you like me for what I was putting
out before, you're gonna still like me. Andif you don't, and then you find that's an issue,
(01:14:27):
then that's your business. I don't begrudgeyou for it. Do what you gotta do. I am not
gonna be ashamed of what I believe in and howI feel. I'm happy to help give people hope
where possible because in a hopeless world,we need hope. Thanks. So. I am not ashamed
and I'm happy to keep promoting this. Yeah,I just hope that people can understand that
(01:14:47):
it's so common to believe in something, in people,in a concept, in a faith organization, and
to be let down from the higher ups, just settingyou a dream of saying, were people orientated
or we believe in this faith or we believe inthat? And then when push come to shove, it's
(01:15:09):
something else. and that leaves you feelingaggrieved, you're grieving a loss of the idea,
the future you built up in yourself or everythingyou was ever told and groomed to be and found
that wasn't a reality that was gonna be yours.And I guess I'll ask questions to people, if
you did achieve that reality and then foundthat it was all fictitious, how would you then
(01:15:37):
feel? Because you've built your life on... shakyground. Whereas if you found that beforehand,
you kind of dodged the bullet to a certain degree.But I guess each is valid in terms of how you
feel and what you go through. But I just wantyou to have that conversation yourself, challenge
those thoughts that you feel like are, Oh, Ican't ask that question. Why? If you can't
(01:16:00):
ask the question, that's a red flag. Oh, canI ask it? You might be dating. Oh, can I ask
if he's got a girlfriend? Oh, I don't want todo that. Why? He might get upset. Why is he
getting upset? You might ask a woman, do youhave a boyfriend? She might get upset, why?
Can I ask my boss for a pay rise? Oh, but we'rein a good relationship. Why? Cause they know
(01:16:22):
your worth, you know you're worth more moneythan you can go elsewhere. Don't be scared
to ask questions. If people really care aboutyou and they mess with you like that, trust
me, that one question is not gonna hurt therelationship. They're gonna welcome it and
you can build a conversation around it. Butwhen you don't ask questions, that's when you're
setting yourself up for, and you deserve betterthan that. But Kelly's just sort of giving
(01:16:44):
us a good example of how he navigated the situation.And it's so important when he did say yes,
and he agreed to certain situations, he justbacked out and just, well, didn't back out
straight away, but he went up to him and said,hey, it's not for me. And I encourage anybody
and everybody that feels that way to do it.And don't necessarily let other people. tell
(01:17:05):
you what you're going to be in life. It's niceto have people believe in you like that, but
it's your life and you've got to deal with theconsequences of each and every one of your
actions. Not just because someone said it thatyou feel you have to live it. You've heard
it here before where people say, oh, I wantyou to marry a woman. No, come back with a
(01:17:26):
wife. And the guest said, but what if I don'twant that? What if I don't want that? and you're
putting your mouth on me saying that you wantthis for me and that's not what I want. You've
heard people say, oh, but you know, you shouldhave children. But what if you're infertility,
you have infertility issues and you cannot getpregnant easily that other people can. You're
putting unnecessary pressure on me. I know itcould be said with love, but have a conversation
(01:17:51):
with people. It's very important so people don'tfeel a certain way unnecessarily. But I feel
like I've said a lot and I don't mean to. Ijust felt it was very valid points made across
the board. here in the conversation and I hopethat you guys understand that you're right
now honestly is not your forever and nothingabout a caterpillar taste can be a butterfly
look after yourself I'll catch you next episodesee you then
the moment we opened our mouth to say something,they shut us down. And for the next two hours,
my friend and I did not say a word. And allof the conversation was being directed and
instructed by the higher ups who were tellingus, dictating to us, what we needed to do,
how we should have done it, and making it veryclear that there was no option. It was an ultimatum.
(00:26):
You either do this or you don't get. the supportthat you came here asking for. And there hasn't
been many times in my adult life that I feltdeflated. That was one of those times where
to this day, my friend and I would tell you,we both got in the car, the drive back to our
homes, we did not say a word to each other.
(01:01):
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I'm your host,Matt Brown and you're listening to the EveryL
Podcast. Each episode we'll have a differentguest come on and talk about when life hangs
you in L, is it really a loss or is it somethingelse? Because not every L is a loss. So sit
back, relax and do what every guy do to getcomfortable as we get into this. Let's go!
(01:32):
Welcome to another episode of Every Young Podcast.For every episode of different guests come
on and talk about the experiences they've gonethrough with a positive or otherwise and how
they navigate that. Was it, did they do it thehealthy way? Did they do it in an unhealthy
way? What support did they have in place? Becausewe've all kind of experienced times where we've
had plans made and we're like, right, thingsare gonna go off like this without a hitch.
(01:56):
And then a hitch happens and you react. I haveguests come on who share things as personal
to them and are willing to describe what theJ look like from the beginning, where they
feel the beginning up until said point wherethey feel they've come full circle. And today
I have a guest on who actually has been on previously.He's a fantastic guy. We've known each other
(02:21):
for a few years now, coming to think about it.And... I'm grateful for the season that we're
in where we're able to have so much in common,just get to know one another, even though we're
in different parts of the world. And I thinkthat's the beauty of the podcast itself as
well. It just connects people with other peoplewho can go through similar journeys, but not
necessarily to be in your parameters, so tospeak. But ultimately, this individual, I've
(02:45):
praised him up big time on the last episode,last two episodes actually, if you wanna go
check him out. I'm not gonna do too much ofit this time because I honestly feel fearful
for his head size because it may just explodeand he's wearing headphones right now so can't
be doing that but this gentleman is so steadfastin what he does he takes parenting very seriously
(03:05):
he's very he's very professional he's very goodat what he does and he does everything with
purpose and that's something that can only helpme be a better version of myself by just being
around someone like him and not only that he'sjust cool people he's just good vibes so People
go check out his podcast. He does have one.I'm not going to tell you what it is because
(03:26):
I'm going to let him drop it in his intro. ButI'm grateful for this individual that's going
to be talking and sharing a little bit moreof his journey from where he was to where he
is. Kelly, how are you doing, sir? Please introduceyourself. What's going on, Matt? Thank you
for the intro. Not much to really add. I'lljust restate my name. My name is Kelly Jean-Philippe.
(03:50):
Ooh, yeah. Philadelphia PA, Across the Pond,and the good ol' US of A. I host the Welcome
to Fatherhood podcast that you can find everywherepodcasts are available. And I've been doing
that for the past three years. And just a sidenote, since we have that thing in common also,
(04:12):
happy belated birthday to your twins. Oh, thankyou. You were born on the same day that my
oldest son was born, just two years later. Indeed,indeed. And happy birthday to him as well.
Thank you. So we've got Kelly back and as youlove his lovely voice, his silky voice, so
now I've got to stand a lot more deeper. Stopit. That old, yeah, you know. Fun fact, I actually
(04:39):
used to love Vin Diesel's voice, like back inPitch Black movie, like his voice was that
voice like, how do I swallow a frog and soundlike that? He just sounds on point. Like I
felt like if I was a woman, I'd probably gotpregnant from just listening to him like, Oh,
oh my gosh. He his voice. Oh, damn it. So yeah,hopefully I can replicate that in some way,
(05:01):
shape or form. Uh, let's have a look. So folks,you know how it runs. I get these sent over
to me. I don't know much more than what I seein the text form, but I'm happy to delve into
it, explore a little bit more. So Kenny saidthat he would like to talk about the loss of
religious identity. So that's interesting tome, because that kind of makes me feel like,
(05:21):
and this is my personal opinion, just off thetake, is being involved in a religious setting,
maybe a church, and just kind of going throughemotions, but not really knowing who you are
and how you fit in with what you believe versuswhat rituals and what practices you are continuously
doing. But I'm happy to be corrected. Pleasesir, take it from the top and tell me what
(05:45):
happened. Yeah, so. The story goes back to thebeginning beginning, not like Genesis beginning,
you know what I mean? Like the beginning beginning.So I was raised in a family of Christians.
I mean, my mom's side of the family in particular,I have about three or four uncles who are pastors,
(06:08):
you know, went to seminary school and what haveyou. One of them recently graduated like a
year or two ago from seminary school. So. Religiouspractice and religion in my family, my mom's
side of the family is huge. My father, who wasof a different religious background when he
and my mom met, had to be converted to my mom'sreligion so that they could get married, that
(06:33):
kind of stuff. So that has been my upbringing.I see the world through religious lens or theological
lens, like that's just... That's all I knowand I don't know how to be anything other than
that. Also, culturally speaking, being raisedin a family where religion was so, or is still
(06:57):
so important, and particularly every singlemale who's born in the family, it's almost
like, hey, are you going to be a religious leaderalso? Are you gonna be a pastor? And that's
like the trajectory that the families kind ofpush you into. I always had a sense growing
(07:17):
up that that's what my destiny would be like,because my mom made it very clear from the
beginning. She would tell stories of when Iwas first born and I had some medical complications
and how she prayed and she was like, Lord, ifyou deliver my son, then you can take him into
your service. And so she was always like, youare destined to be a pastor. And early on I
(07:39):
was like, hell no, I'm not. Because Too manyof my family members are already doing that.
And I've always been not necessarily a rebel,but someone who wants to blaze his own trail,
right? Like I, it has to make sense for me todo something before I go ahead and do it. And
not just because everybody else is doing it,I'm gonna do it also. Oh, well, this is important
(08:01):
too. So eventually, if you go back and you listento the first time that I was on this wonderful
platform, I spoke about a very devastating breakupthat kind of changed the trajectory of my life.
The result of that is that I myself ended upgoing to seminary school, womp, like all the
(08:25):
things that I said I wouldn't do. I ended updoing it anyway, but it was very clear to me
during seminary. I felt a sense of dread anddead endedness as I was sitting in a class
and the professor was painting this hypotheticaland based on the way that I responded to the
(08:45):
hypothetical, he made it very clear that I wasa young idealist and that the real world would
not treat me so kindly. And I was like, thereis no way in hell. I'm going to graduate with
this degree, a masters of divinity, go lookfor a pulpit position and then just let the
(09:06):
rest of my days wither doing that. and likebabysitting people. To me, that was just the
way that it felt. So I said, nah, I'm not doingthat. Found another route, ended up in chaplaincy,
which has been great for me because it fitsmore my personality. That being said, not that
(09:27):
the background is established. Because churchis such an important part of who I am, even
though I have my issues and displeasures andwhatever, I'm a deep thinker, I like to think
that. And one of the topics of conversationsthat has always interested me are theological
(09:47):
topics, regardless of the topic. I've alwayswanted to be plugged in and I've always been
plugged in to a church community my whole life.Back in 2019-ish, like summer of 2019 if I
remember correctly, something started happeningat the church that I belonged to. where the
(10:10):
higher powers that govern the,
I don't even know how to explain it, but thestructure of my religious affiliation is you
have a conference that is composed of a networkof churches. And so the conference, who itself
(10:38):
is underneath a more general conference, allthese tiers of hierarchy, whatever, they have
say into who gets placed where and for how longand all of that stuff. So unfortunately, our
senior pastor passed away suddenly of a heartattack and that completely sent our congregation
(11:07):
into a tizzy because the church that I belongedto was predominantly a young adult oriented
church. All of us were in our mid-20s to early30s, some even earlier 20s, working professionals,
some had already started their families. Sowe were young adults and we wanted to do things.
(11:34):
different than the churches that our parentsand grandparents came from, right? Never really
challenging like the core pillars, but definitelyraising concerns, which we were then labeled
rebels for because you just don't do that kindof stuff. So long story short, our pastor passes
(11:57):
away. We asked our higher-ups if we were goingto get a pastor and they said, No, but we came
to find out later that through some backdoorway, they were trying to send someone to the
church to try to redirect the focus of the churchtowards a more traditional style service. We
(12:21):
had a non-traditional style service. We didn'tcare how people showed up. We had live music.
We had a live band. Guys would go and... andlike jeans and t-shirts and stuff like that.
I mean, it was just like, we ate meat at thechurch, which apparently, you know, the traditional,
(12:42):
you just don't do those types of things. Sowe were trying to break away from that because
we felt like, you know, the world is changingand we need to change along with it. And the
way that our parents did things while we'renot condemning it is just not fitting to whatever.
So that caused a rift within the congregationand the body when we found out that the politics
(13:11):
of our higher ups were really influencing howthings were happening. And some of the guys,
if not most of the guys decided, you know what,we're going to start our own independent thing
somewhere else. Well, we were labeled all sortsof things by the higher ups. You know, we were
told all sorts of things. And that was that.But where I come into the mix is that now I
(13:37):
am in between this fractioning that occurredin the congregation because I have deep ties
and deep relationships with people on both sidesof the aisle. And now it seemed like people
had drawn a line in the sand or were forcedto draw a line in the sand. one group left,
(14:03):
which was the majority of the congregation,and a small remnant remained. And they were
asking me to now step up and take on a leadershiprole, which would have sent a clear message
to the majority group that left that I was goingto hitch my wagon to their horse, but I couldn't
(14:25):
do that because of my ties to the other. SoI felt like in between and I couldn't be neutral.
So that's number one. Number two, because ofmy personal seminary experience, there were
tenants of our faith tradition that always botheredme, and I started to question certain things.
And as a result of this thing and not beingable to find a church community, and then the
(14:49):
pandemic happened in 2020, so now I am withouta church community. I have all of these questions,
and people are just like, lying in the sandand I am in no man's land. So for the first
time in my life, I was experiencing a crisisthat I just didn't know how to resolve. And
(15:16):
I felt out of sorts. And I was in so much distressbecause here is an aspect of my identity that
has now been, it just felt like it was it wasbeing ripped away from me or whatever the feeling
was, it just was not a good feeling, Matt. Thatsounds a lot to take on board. Was that over
(15:41):
a long period of time or was it quite a shortturnaround from when he passed? It was maybe
within a year or so. Wow. Yeah. Faster passedwithin a year and then all of these things
started to cascade and yeah. while we were stillgrieving and trying to figure things out and
(16:02):
what have you. And all of these things werejust being put in motion. And yeah, once, once
we found out that the higher ups were playinggames and did not take us seriously and, um,
they had other plans that were completely againstour values and what have you, you know, and,
and to, to be fair, there was a history of thathappening, like the relationship between that
(16:27):
particular congregation and our former higherups had always been tenuous. On the one hand,
they were like, yeah, it's awesome. There'sa young adult oriented church that is doing
good things and we want to support it. And onthe other hand is like, well, if they don't
do things our way, then we're not going to givethem the support. And I was, I was part of
(16:49):
a conversation, a face to face conversationwith the higher ups of that conference, me
and another friend of that same congregation,when we went to ask them to support an initiative
that we wanted to start at our congregation,and they basically shut us down the moment
(17:13):
we opened our mouth to say something. They shutus down, and for the next two hours, my friend
and I did not say a word. And All of the conversationwas being directed and instructed by the higher
ups who were telling us, dictating to us whatwe needed to do, how we should have done it.
And, you know, making it very clear that therewas no, there was no option. It was an ultimatum.
(17:39):
You either do this or you don't get the supportthat you came here asking for. And there hasn't
been many times in my adult life that I feltdeflated. That was one of those times where
to this day, my friend and I would tell you,we both got in the car, the drive back to our
(17:59):
homes, we did not say a word to each other.Cause both of us were quite deflated as a result
of that. So it had been years where the relationship,you know, in the public spectrum, it was like,
yay, good for you guys. But in the private conversations,it was like, They were setting us up for failure.
(18:20):
So when we took matters into our own hands andI, you know, this was the first time that I
ever been a part of that. And like I said, myidentity is tied to my religious tradition,
to my ideology. I mean the whole nine and nowfor the first time in my life, it was like.
Theologically speaking, I am in a very uncertainplace. The community that. I invested a lot
(18:47):
of my personal resources in, was now split andshambles a pandemic and becoming a new father
and trying to figure all of that stuff out.And it was just like, I was free falling. And
how did that impact your faith at the time?Because if you'd pour so much resource into
it, clearly, you know, you studied, you're wellversed in it or you believe in it, because
(19:12):
it's part of your culture, it's part of yourupbringing. And now... And this is me putting
my personal little topic on top of it is asmuch as you're all about the faith, you believe
in your religion with your relationship withGod and now you're seeing the flesh dominate
what you feel like you have no place being here.But if this is happening now, how long has
(19:33):
this been going on for? And was it that it wasless overt before? Did that play on you at
all? Yeah, man. I mean, it just showed me itreinforced a lot of the things that I had felt
during my two and a half years in seminary.Personally, I did not have a good experience
going to seminary, particularly for that reason,because it became my experience exposed me
(20:00):
to a side of what it means to be involved inreligion and church and. of particular traditions
and what have you that is scary. Not that, I'mnot saying that it shouldn't be that way because
listen, at the end of the day, we're all humanbeings, we are all flawed, we are all trying
(20:21):
to figure this thing out. But the systems thatwe've created and that I was exposed to now
being in the inner mechanisms of this thing.were frightening. And my seminary experience
was one that was characterized by just absolutehorror and a lot of key moments. And man, I
(20:51):
remember one of my professors even said, wehad to take the psychological test as part
of our application process. And he was the onewho evaluated the tests. And then he would
send his recommendation body of, you know, thegoverning body of the seminary and would say,
this person is fit for ministry and based onthe results, this person is not fit for ministry.
(21:15):
So this person shouldn't be granted access toor an acceptance letter to come to seminary.
And we're sitting in this man's class and heflat out said, some of you that are here have
no business being here. I gave my personal recommendation,my professional recommendation, based off of
(21:39):
your assessments that you sent back. Yet, theykeep accepting everybody. And so some of you
are gonna go out and do damage to people. Imean, he said that, bro. And I was like, wait
a minute. So this is just like a machine that'sjust cranking out things. And I was horrified
by that.
(22:12):
So I wanna say like, being there was the beginningof my deep questioning of the tenants of this
faith that I had inherited since the momentI was born. So now nothing was as simple as,
oh, this is what I've always believed. Now Istarted asking the why question, like why is
(22:34):
this that way? And I am going to say this witha level of certainty. I don't care what organization,
what affiliation someone has, the moment youstart asking certain why questions, you paint
a target on your back and you start to rufflethe feathers a little bit. And I, you know,
(23:01):
I don't think I've caught the attention of anyonehigher up who would care about my lowly peasant
status. But it was important for me to start.examining, questioning for myself the reasons
for the reasons why I believe the things thatI was taught to believe. So when it comes to
(23:22):
praying, did that impact that at all? Yeah,because my prayers were like, God, what the
hell is going on here? You know, I need youto help me make sense of this. What never happened,
I never lost my sense of personal faith. I didstart to lose the religious label that had
(23:51):
always been attached to that faith. For me,it was always, this is the religious label
that I have, and as a result of that, it producesthis kind of faith. In that moment, I realized,
no, I have my own faith, and I don't necessarilyneed a particular label on that faith. And
(24:18):
that is something that within that traditionis a no-no. I mean, there is an internal thinking
and mentality within the tradition that I wasa part of that makes it very clear. outside
(24:40):
of that label. In fact, I'll share this storywith you. When the fraction happened in the
congregation, one of the higher-ups were sentto our congregation to kind of come down and,
you know, lay down the law. And this man said,without mincing any words, anyone who belongs
(25:01):
to this group that has left the congregationhas basically sealed their fate. So according
to certain people, we are not just on the expresstrain, but we are driving the express train
to hell itself. And you know, that was off-putting,but like I was saying earlier, there is an
(25:24):
internal culture and belief system within thattradition that justifies someone of a higher
status like that to make a claim like that aboutpeople. And it's just one of those things.
That sounds harsh. It is harsh. And very difficultto wrap your head around because I've had my
(25:46):
personal experience with that. And when I getinto something, I'm really into it. So for
those that don't know, I got baptized at age17 and I was in it. I was in it, in it, in
it. Problem is that because I was in it so much,I saw a lot of stuff behind the scenes and
it wasn't just. at that church, it was, it seemedto be any church I went to, people just felt
(26:10):
really comfortable enough around me to justshow me what I didn't want to see. And it got
to the point where I had someone, I love hereven to today, she would laugh at me because
she'd watch me at church and they'll sing asong. And it'll be something like, I wake up
in the morning and I praise your name and allthis stuff. And I'm like, You don't want me
(26:31):
to lie, but you're trying to get me to singthis song. I'm not a morning person. So why
am I going to lie to you and tell you I'm goingto wake up in the morning singing? I don't
do it. I barely even, I'm not even happy thatis gone. Like I promise you I'm vexed and you're
telling me to lie. And then I say, you're sofunny. I'm not trying to be funny. I'm honestly
just here. And it took a lot for me to sortof work out what I wanted and why I felt the
(26:58):
way I did, but I I think I'm at peace with myselfin terms of how I am and what I'm about. But
initially it wasn't the case for me. And there'sa lot of soul searching and realizing I couldn't
talk to a lot of people because what I was sayingpotentially was, they're a white towel and
I'm a speck of dirt. Once you get a speck ofdirt on it, it's not like, oh, but there's
(27:21):
still more white than dirt. No, no, I've contaminatedthat. So as soon as I come to them and go,
oh, you happy, you clappy, yeah. Have you thoughtabout this? and all of a sudden it spreads.
That's how I felt. Did all your family attendthe same church or were they in their own locations,
at their own churches and whatnot? No, we attended,like in terms of the same church building,
(27:45):
yes, there were times when the families wholived in the same city, same parts of the city
would attend primarily the same church buildingacross. the family, you know, in different
locations, we all attended the same denomination,yeah, on a consistent basis. I mean, like I
(28:07):
said, I have four uncles who are, two of whichare like really popular preachers within, you
know, the Haitian community of that denomination.And it's just like, my last name carries weight
within the Haitian. population of that denomination,right? Like I went to the Dominican Republic
(28:32):
in 2019, around the time that all of this washappening to officiate a wedding for friends
of mine. And we went to a Haitian church inthe Dominican Republic and one of the church
goers there. Afterwards came and spoke to meto tell me that he knows my uncle because they
(28:53):
used to be buddies back in the days In Haitiand he's like, oh, are you really his nephew?
Like this person? so it carries weight whereverI go, which is something that I Absolutely
do not like it makes me uncomfortable and byvirtue of my by virtue of my training, by virtue
(29:16):
of my profession, as far as uncomfortable asI feel with all of this, I still do have a
masters of divinity and I still do have a, Iam a licensed minister. So, excuse me, so I
do go places to participate in church and preachand do like, I still do these things. I still
(29:42):
do these things today. in a different way now,but I still do them today. And the level of
pomp and circumstance surrounding someone ofmy position, you know, like the pastor, whether
it's the local pastor or the visiting pastorand how everyone sort of caters to and just
(30:04):
like, no pastor, cut in front of the line ofthe people who are as hungry as you are to
go and eat. And I'm just like, nah, I'm cool.people are hungry as I'm hungry. Like I don't
need any special privilege or anything likethat just because like, no. But there's so
much, there's so much stuff about how peoplewithin my tradition carry out their beliefs
(30:31):
and it's, all of those things have always botheredme. And so this crisis in right before the
pandemic in 2020 was the worst thing that couldhappen to me, but the best thing that could
happen to me. Because now I was at a neutralplace. Now I didn't have a congregation that
(30:58):
I was affiliated with. Now since according tothat conference official, I was on the express
train to hell anyway. So I was like, bet. IfI'm going to hell, let's just go straight to
hell. and figure this thing out. So now I startedasking and researching all of the questions
that I felt like I couldn't publicly do before.And I started looking into things. And man,
(31:24):
I rediscovered the reason why I had always beenattached to this theological line of thinking.
So I discovered this resource that has beenreally helpful to me is this organization based
(31:44):
here in the United States. And these guys, theyput out a weekly podcast talking about the
Bible and reading it and context. I mean, justtotally different than what I had been exposed
to in seminary. So I went to two and a halfyears of seminary by listening to one podcast
(32:07):
episode. I learned more in an hour and changedand I had learned in two and a half years of
seminary. So then they were producing contentthat was addressing the very questions that
I had always been asking. So then I'm rediscovering,oh, this is the reason why I'm one of those
(32:30):
people on planet earth who believes in God.And now I can actually build a. reason and
response a case for why that's the case. Itwasn't so much more, you know, this is what
I inherited since I was born. And I realizedthat I didn't need any particular religious
(32:52):
interpretation. And what I had started to realizeis that a lot of the things that I used to
preach myself as a representative of that denominationwere so harmful to people. And so I was gaining
this new perspective that made me feel so, what'sthe word I'm looking for? I was horrified at
(33:19):
myself and my participation in what I saw asthis machine that was just cranking out people
who sounded the same, who thought the same,who did the same things. over and over and
over again with very little room for creativity,with very little room for interpretation, with
(33:47):
very little room because everything was justcookie cutter. And I was part of that cookie
cutter. And I'm not bashing tradition, I'm notbashing rituals. Human life is lived in traditions
and rituals, whether they're religious or not.So that's not that's not the point. Anyone
who says to me, Church is just a whole bunchof or religion is just a whole bunch of rituals
(34:09):
and religion I'm like, okay So you must be azombie and even if you are a zombie you have
your own rituals and tradition so miss me withthat one, but I started to realize that I didn't
need the filter of the tradition that I hadalways been a part of to Make me feel like
(34:32):
I was living in a way that was honoring thefaith in God that is in me. So that was like
the best thing that could happen to me. Interesting.I'm gonna come back to a couple of things on
there, but one of them I'll answer your question.So with your family being that heavily involved,
(34:52):
how did it make the conversation you had withthem going forward after your experience prior
to the pandemic that is? So what's interestingis that because I graduated seminary and I
did not pursue a pulpit ministry job or position.Most people in my family looked condescendingly
(35:20):
on me as a result of that. To the point thatmy, my own mom, and I can't forget this, my
own mom in a conversation that. My sister andI were having, and she was questioning something,
some reference in the Bible, and she had heropinion about it. I think she and my mom were
(35:45):
going back and forth. And then she solicitedmy opinion, and I was about to open my mouth
to give my opinion. My mother said somethingto the effect of, wait, what is Kelly going
to say to me that I don't already know? So what,he's gonna tell me about the Bible now?
(36:07):
That was very hurtful because that communicatedvery clearly that, number one, you have no
position, you have no platform to speak on becauseyou're not like a pastor-pastor like your uncles
are and like the other people are in the tradition.So we don't have conversations about any of
(36:32):
that. I just... have heard through the grapevinesand I felt the looks and I felt the, when I
first told one of my pastor uncles what I wasdoing as a chaplain, it was like, oh, okay,
cool. There was no, it was more like a, oh yeah,that's nice type of thing. And humbly speaking,
(37:03):
Not every pulpit minister can be a chaplain,but I will say a good number of chaplains would
make excellent pulpit ministers. Because chaplaincy,at least in the way that I've experienced it,
it teaches you to deal with people and to listento people and to relate to people who are going
(37:29):
through real life things. truly makes an impact.And it's not so focused on maintaining a particular
view or interpretive tradition or, you know,dogma or any of that stuff. I feel like I'm
(37:49):
bashing these folks, but I'm really not, dude.I'm just speaking from my experience. Do you
know what? I get it. And... I'm just tryingto put myself in your shoes to try and understand.
where you feel you can get out to just breathe,to just feel that you have time. But then you
(38:12):
did allude to it saying that you had COVID hitand you was allowed to just remove yourself
from that situation. But I'd imagine, and correctme if I'm wrong, were there people still reaching
out to you just as like that was happening anyway,because they still wanted to have traction,
they wanted that thing to move. How did younavigate that space when there some people
still say, yeah, let's get the momentum going.You're kind of like... I'm going to go hype
(38:35):
it until this thing's all done. Yeah. So afterthe whole split happened in the congregation,
the majority found a way to set up a new settingand then, or new setup. And then they just
started doing their own thing. And no one fromthat side reached out to me for a while. The
(38:58):
small minority that stayed, like I said, theywanted me to. hitch my horse to their wagon
or my wagon to their horse, whichever way theanalogy works best, so that I could be one
of the prominent leaders of that small groupat the time. I remember attending a house meeting
(39:19):
where they were trying to talk about how torestructure things with the current pastor
that the conference had sent to right the wrongsof. the congregation that was there before
the split. And I didn't like the attitude thatthey had towards the majority group that left.
(39:41):
I didn't like some of the expressions that werebeing made because prior to that fraction,
we were all really cool people. I mean, we stillare really cool people, but that fraction really
created this divisive thinking. where all ofa sudden someone that, you know, people who
(40:02):
were cool with each other two weeks ago werenow, one of them was clearly being cast as
the enemy and that didn't sit well with me.And so I remember attending that meeting and
because of the pressure that I felt being inthat meeting, I agreed to take on a leadership
(40:26):
role with the small minority. And then whenI got home after that meeting, I was horrified.
And I thought about it, I spoke with my wife,and then I called her and I said, or I spoke
with my wife and I said, I don't think I cando this. I really don't think I can do this.
So I called the people that I had said yes to,and I said to them, listen, I am so sorry,
(40:51):
but I can't, I can't be what you guys are askingme to be I am caught in the middle here and
I don't want to favor any side. So that kindof now casted me in a position of, so whose
side are you on? Are you on our side or areyou on their side? And I'm like, I'm on nobody's
(41:17):
side. I'm not even neutral right now. I don'tknow what the heck I am. I just know that I'm
not, I can't affiliate myself with either sidebecause this wound was too fresh. And so I
just sat home and man, I remember just beingso depressed for a little while. And I just
(41:38):
felt like my, like the people that I would,that I love and really wanna hang out with,
like I didn't have access to them anymore, youknow? And it, yeah, it felt, I felt very isolated,
Matt. It was very isolating. Isolating to thepoint that I wondered if there was any value,
(42:04):
there was any meaning, there was any sense ofany of this stuff. I just felt extremely isolated.
But the breath of fresh air was finding thisorganization that allowed me to feel plugged
in to a larger virtual community of people whowere engaging this podcast. who were engaging
(42:26):
with their material, people from all aroundthe country, people from all around the world,
people who were having and entertaining andconcerned about the deep theological questions
and existential questions that I had been thinkingabout and now was feeling more intensely as
a result of all of this stuff. Like I felt pluggedinto people that I'd never seen before, but
(42:51):
I knew that I was not the only one asking thesesort of. sorts of questions and having these
concerns. And this resource was like a breathof fresh air that helped get me through this
crisis moment. Interesting, because when youmentioned about how you accepted it and then
(43:12):
went back, you know, spoke to your wife andwent back to them, a scripture did come to
mind. And obviously, I've never done this before,but I'm always up for something new. There
is a scripture that I love and I love the bookof Proverbs and it's for chapter six, it says,
my son, if you've put up security for your neighbor,if you're shaking hands in pledge for a stranger,
(43:34):
you've been ensnared by the words of your mouth.So do this, my son, to free yourself. Since
you have fallen into your neighbor's hands,go to the point of exhaustion and give your
neighbor no rest. Allow no sleep to your eyes,no slumber to your eyelids. Free yourself like
a gazelle from the hand of the hunter, likea bird from the snare of the fowler." And it
(43:58):
just, you know, it's not directly linked toit, but you was quick to just go and say, I
know I said yes. but to just allow me to sleep,to allow me to move on because every time I
sleep, and I said that to you, that's anotherday still in your cage, it's still in your
claws. You didn't allow that to happen. Youwas like, you know what, need to hold my hands
(44:23):
up. I said yes. Upon reflection, I have to correctmyself. And you did a very valiant thing that
I think a lot of us struggle with. I'll holdmy hands up, I'll struggle with that. How old
are you around this time?
Oh, 34, 35. Okay. So, still, an age that somepeople still struggle with to do certain stuff
(44:52):
like that, because, you know, a lot of us arepeople pleased, unfortunately, and it just
seemed nice that you wasn't able to allow that,that's the aspect of your personality to dominate
the situation by saying, oh, I've already givenmy word, so I'm gonna hold fast and do it.
Yeah, I mean, think about the fact that, likeI said, I was born and raised in this stuff.
(45:16):
And I went to college and I still came backand I was like, yeah, there's still value in
this. Here I am and at a crucial moment in myadult life and this crisis is now happening.
I mean, to me, that was just like, why couldn'tthis happen when I was in college, it would
(45:40):
have been much easier, you know, cause hereI am learning all sorts of new things and rubbing
elbows with all sorts of different people andlifestyles and this and that. And I'm like,
Oh, this is awesome. And I was still like, no,there's, there's still value and, you know,
believing in something, you know, and now at30 something I'm married, I have a child on
(46:04):
the way and all of this. And I'm just like,I spent. thousands of dollars pursuing a degree.
You know what I mean? And it's like, now thisthing is happening. And it's just like, come
on. So that was what added to the deep distressthat I felt. Cause then I felt like I was losing
(46:25):
a part of myself. How do you feel about it now?Do you still feel that you've lost a part of
yourself? I feel like I did lose that part ofmyself. but it was so freeing to have lost
that part of myself. So what would you call,what is that part? How would you articulate
it? The part of myself that had put more importance,more value to the, to the label of the tradition
(47:02):
that I belong to. Like, to make that part ofmy identity. You know, there are people who,
there are people who take great pride and saying,or in naming, not forcefully, but like putting
it out as like, the most important thing, thetradition that they belong to, right? Like,
(47:28):
I am a Catholic, for example, or I am a Pentecostal.
I remember one of the guests that you had ona while back, he was dating a young lady who
was a Seventh-day Adventist. And I know personallythat Seventh-day Adventists are people who
(47:52):
take pride in, I am a Seventh-day Adventist.So for me, it was like, that was a thing for
me too. I was just like, this is who I am. andto have lost all of that, to have, for as hurtful
and as bizarre as that conference official'swords were, that clearly drew the line in the
(48:18):
sand. You guys cannot call yourself by the samename of the larger organization. Because if
you do, and you have no affiliation with us,there will be legal ramifications. He said
that. He said those words in love or just nolove there, homie. There was no love there.
(48:45):
It was a threat. It was basically a threat disguisedas this is the word of the Lord. Like that's
what happened. It was clearly manipulative andit had all the wrong intentions behind it.
(49:10):
So for as messed up as those words were, thegift inherent in that is that it freed me from
having to retain that label that's so defined,not just my life and my personal history, but
(49:31):
that of a large part of my family. When I tellyou my mother's side of the family, siblings,
cousins, I mean like generations belonging tothis tradition. So, you know, it's not as simple
(49:51):
as, you know, it's not as simple as when, youknow, if I remember correctly, your family
is Jamaican descent. Yeah? So it's not as simpleas, you know, you're Jamaican and then you...
your family migrates to the UK and then youlike get naturalized and it's like, okay, I'm
(50:15):
still Jamaican, but now I have a passport thatsays I am a citizen of the UK and it doesn't
necessarily feel like you've lost somethingas much as you're adapting to a new culture
and right. This was like, if you are In my family,as it pertains to my family, if you are born
(50:39):
in this family, you carry this religious labeland it shapes everything about our communities,
our lives, our families, and our decisions,who we can marry, who we can't marry, like
all of that stuff. You marry outside of thereligion, you get the side eye. You know what
I mean? Like that kind of stuff. So to be ableto lose that, it was like, so then who am I?
(51:05):
And the big aha moment was I never needed thatto begin with. Like that was never what made
me who I am. There was so much more that makesme who I am. And that, that I had been putting
so much value on was not necessarily valuableat all.
(51:40):
So that aha moment, what was the tipping pointfor that? Once I started to rediscover the
reasons why, once I started to formulate myown reasons why I am a person of faith. Once
(52:02):
I started to understand the Bible, which isthis tool. that informs my faith on its own
terms without any of the religious filters thatI had inherited for 30 some odd years. Once
(52:23):
I started to understand or to come to an understandingof what this whole story means, this whole
story of the Bible, what role I play in it,how it informs or how it can inform how I see
(52:46):
myself and how I see my community, how I seemy neighbors, how I see how the world functions.
Once I started to really dig deep into thesequestions that really mattered to me and the
responses that I was coming to, the discoveriesthat I was making through, you know, with this
(53:09):
organization and the resources that they produce.It was like, whoa, man, look at that. What
had been lacking for me for the majority of30 something years, several months of a pandemic
has given that to me for free. Like that wasjust the best thing. Sounds absolutely amazing.
(53:41):
So to get to that point, you now feel elated,you feel free. Unfortunately, I don't wanna
sort of use this phrase, but it's a very popularsong. The shackles were gone. You was able
to sort of dance. The shackles were definitelygone. You was just living it up. I'd imagine
it's like stepping outside of a dark chasm andjust being able to be, oh, I can't open my
(54:05):
eyes. But when you can, you're. marvelled byhow many different colours there are and how
beautiful the scenery is and whatever else.The weight of judgment can be very heavy upon
our shoulders and we sometimes don't even knowabout it. Yeah. Did you deal with any of this
in an unhealthy manner? Yeah, dude, I startedto get really angry retrospectively. And when
(54:31):
I would talk to people, I started bashing. thefolks in the tradition that I had left behind.
And to me, why is that unhealthy? Because itput me in the same stratosphere, in the same
category, in the same boat as what they haddone to me and to the majority group that had
(55:00):
left. Like I didn't see any difference betweenme and that conference official that basically
sent all of us to hell because I was now, youknow, the one who was wagging the finger and
pointing the finger and X, Y, and Z. So to me,that was unhealthy. And I needed to find a
way to reconcile, you know, all of this excitementthat I had, this new perspective and understanding
(55:26):
without becoming the judgmental person myself.And what occurred to me is that, you know what,
man, we're all trying to figure it out. We'reall trying to make lemonade with the lemons
that life throw our way. And just because someoneis struggling to squeeze the juice out of their
lemon doesn't mean that they can't make lemonade.You know what I mean? So that's where I settled
(55:53):
on. And it was like, okay. I understand whythat perspective would lead people to say certain
things, to think a certain way. I get that.I have a different perspective now. It's not
better, it's not worst. It's a different perspective.So now the challenge is, how can I still look
(56:16):
across my own face to the person that has adifferent perspective than me and still treat
them with the dignity, kindness, and respectthat they deserve regardless of the perspective
they have? And how can I still communicate tothem the value of my perspective without putting
(56:37):
down their perspective? And so that has beenmy approach now in talking to people who are
deeply rooted in that tradition. It's like understanding,look, I'm not discrediting anything that you
believe. This is just a different perspectivethat I would like to offer. And if you're able
(57:03):
to engage in a conversation like that, thenthat's gold. Brilliant. So going through that
experience, if it's not an L, what are you callingit? If it's not an L, what am I calling it,
Matt? I'm calling it freedom. Nice. Yeah. Theshackles have fallen off, bro. Very nice. Free
(57:28):
at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, Iam free at last. That's good, that's good.
So if you could rewind the clock and go backto a point in time when you was going through
it, when would that be? And what would you sayto your younger self to help you not give in?
(57:54):
Hmm. I don't know when that would be. Maybethat would have to be some point within the
gestational period. If I could hear myself andI would say, hey, dude, you're going to be
all right. I don't know. I honestly don't know.I don't know if my mentality back then would
(58:16):
have been receptive to my mentality now.
Yeah. Cause I can tell you of instances whereI was one of those kids who believed in my
religious, my former religious traditions somuch that I used to tell some kids my age that
(58:45):
if they didn't do ABC, that they were in dangerof going to H-E-L-L. Like I was that guy. I
used to be that guy as a teen, bro, as a teen.And there were some in air quotes, sermons
(59:07):
that I preached that I made some really boldclaims. And over the past three years or so,
some of them have been flashing back in my mind.And I'm horrified that these words came out
of my mouth because I don't know the damagethat I caused people who were listening to
(59:32):
my words during those worship services, whereI stood up to say, this is the word of God.
I mean, it's a really chilling thought to thinkthat there are people out here who have heard
(59:52):
me as a representative of the word of God orwhatever. And because of my... Because I was
irresponsible with what I was doing and whatI was saying, I conveyed something detrimental
(01:00:12):
to them that is not true or is not the case.So Yeah. So yeah, it's obviously I still, I
take this responsibility very seriously. Um,you know, for all the talk about religion and
(01:00:37):
all of that over the past several years andyou know, how much religion has hurt people
and whatnot. Like I, I empathize with that becauseI used to, I just confess I've done that. And
it's been done to me.
Now I remind folks that Not everyone who standsup behind a pulpit whenever people worship
(01:01:10):
and says, this is the word of the Lord and arepreaching from the Bible, not everyone who
says this is the word of the Lord is actuallyspeaking the word of the Lord. And I used to
be one of those people. And what I try to donow within the congregation that So to close
(01:01:31):
the loop, eventually I made a decision to remainas a free agent. That's how I identified myself.
I remained as a free agent. But then I did endup going along with the majority that had left
(01:01:53):
off. So the ones who are on the express trainto hell. Like I'm driving that express train.
So I went along with them and what I've triedto do within that congregation now, which is
an independent congregation, is to hold us accountableto the history that we came from and to also
(01:02:16):
hold us accountable to developing people withinour congregation who are critical listeners
and critical thinkers. so that we don't getto the position of thinking that whatever we
say is gospel. So yeah, just, if anything, Ithink I'm trying to write as many of the wrongs
(01:02:41):
as I could possibly recall to mine in the waythat I help people now navigate their own moments
of spiritual crisis. Are you proud of your?achievements, as in are you proud of your achievements
since going through all that out to come outthe other end the way you are here and now
(01:03:05):
today? I am grateful for them. I'm gratefulfor the rough patch. I'm grateful for the moment
of crisis. I'm grateful for the rediscoveryof, or the discovery rather. of the faith that
I currently have. I'm grateful for the thingsthat I learned and that I knew and the faith
(01:03:35):
that I used to have. Yeah, I'm grateful forall of them. Proud, I don't think I did anything
necessarily to be proud of, but I'm gratefulfor all of those experiences. That's good.
I used to word proud because I think sometimesWe don't feel we can muster the strength or
can even see what things look like beyond righthere and right now and the all consuming feelings
(01:04:02):
that you're going through. And I think it'sreally important for people to always remember
that our heart and mind are in a constant battledaily because our heart wants us to feel good,
feel loved, feel valued, feel all the good feelings.doesn't wanna be lumbered down with burdens
or worries or concern. That's not what the heart'sabout. Heart's about just feelings and feelings
(01:04:24):
galore. The head, on the other hand, just wantsto survive. If I hook up my crook, I wanna
survive. But what about happiness? I don't care.If I can survive another day, I'm good. That's
what I want. I will do it. But it's cold outside.I don't care. Logically, it makes sense to
do this rather than do that. And you're alwayswrestling with, is it worth feeling good versus
(01:04:48):
getting a job done or getting what you want.And we're trying to achieve a balancing act,
a perfect equilibrium between the two. And forsometimes it feels like it works, other times
it doesn't feel like it works. But ultimately,when it comes to things like, are you proud
(01:05:09):
of your decisions? Are you proud of where you'vecome from? I think it can. For me personally,
and everyone's different, I completely respectthat. I think it's important that we should
be proud of some of the things we've overcomebecause there was no roadmap afforded to us.
(01:05:29):
There was no potential trailblazer in frontof us. This is a completely new off the grid
map that we are creating. It's a new chapterin a book that has not been written. that we
are writing. We're even making up words as we'regoing along in this. And it can be very scary.
So I'd like to think that people would be proudof where they're coming, well, proud of where
(01:05:55):
they are versus where they're coming from, especiallywith the lack of information. Even if they
had faith to side of a mustard seed, you stillhad faith and you still put that foot in front
of the other when it could have been easierto just sit there. close your eyes and just
wish it all away. So I think you don't, I thinkfor the sound of it, you've done an amazing
(01:06:20):
job, like just to navigate all that space andto not let that spin you in such a way that
your faith is completely gone and you furtherlose yourself and your identity of who you
are. But it sounds really encouraging that youhave that ability to still have a relationship
with your family. You're able to still instillwhat you feel is important. important to your
(01:06:44):
kids, feel that you can have that fellowshipwith your wife and other people who share similar
faith and ask those challenging questions, thosetough questions. There is a movie that I'll
recommend and it's called The Man From Earth.I don't know how many people watched it, but
it's definitely not a high budget movie, butit is so thought provoking. I've watched it
(01:07:06):
multiple times and I sit there and I watch itand I'm not gonna spoil it for people, but
it's just a matter of. It's a guy who doesn'tage. He's about to leave the area because he's
realizing that people clocking on that he'snot aging. And as he goes, there's a whole
bunch of people that come around to surprisehim, to help him pack and move on. But they're
all a series of professors. You've got a theologian,you've got a science professor, you've got
(01:07:31):
a historian, you've got all the different people.And then they hypothesize about what if a Neanderthal
stopped aging and walked through time. and theyeven cross about Jesus and what he did. And
I promise you, at some point it felt like Iwas blaspheming thinking about what this was
and getting excited about it. But ultimatelyit helped open my eyes to a world of possibilities
(01:07:55):
and not being allowed to question things forme is a red flag if anything else. Because
if you cannot question something, it means thatpotentially the foundation on which it was
built upon is shaky. best. You know, there'sa reason why before products get released to
(01:08:16):
the public, they go through stress tests, theyget tested to make sure that in theory, it's
sound, in practice, it's sound, put it in thehands of a toddler, it's broken. It's not fit
for purpose. It's not right. And we need tochallenge certain concepts and ideas. And it's
not to say that it's outright wrong. It couldjust mean that My interpretation of it today
(01:08:41):
is very much different to tomorrow, becausedepending on my circumstances, how I feel and
all sorts like that. But I absolutely love whatyou've shared. I love that you was open enough
to say those things. And I think a lot of people,if no one else I can, can relate to some of
those stuff where it feels heartful that youinvested so much of yourself into something.
(01:09:02):
And then it just happens to be one or a fewother people that you've held in. Not necessarily
in high regards personally, because you didn'tknow them like that, but you just felt like
you're in a position, you know, that's how yourun things, isn't it? You do things by the
spirit and... Right. Sorry, no affiliation.You just, no love, no hugs, no best wishes,
(01:09:26):
no... This is everything opposite to what you'vebeen teaching for the longest time, what's
going on? Is this just a business to you now?That's all it's been. And that can be hurtful.
And that's, I guess, I go so afraid with nevermeet your heroes because sometimes they can
let you let you down because what you thoughtof them and how you built them up in your head,
isn't necessarily how it is when you meet themin the flesh. So, yeah, man. Yeah. You said
(01:09:52):
something really important there that I justwant to emphasize the ability to the freedom
and ability to question, to ask questions ofThat's why I said in the beginning to question,
to understand the reason behind the reason whyI believe a certain thing. Like to me, that's
(01:10:16):
where the pay dirt is. There is a reason whywe believe everything or whatever it is that
we believe. What is the reason that we thinkthat that's a good reason to believe it? To
me, that's like a next level thought and understandingand questioning. And discovery and all of that
stuff. And to be able to ask those type of questionsand to be able to now be in a place where I
(01:10:43):
welcome people and I even encourage people toask those questions has been something that
I've gained from this experience. Now I canask questions without fear of reprimand or
feeling like, you know, if word gets to peoplewho are the higher ups, then I'm gonna be marked
(01:11:07):
as a rebel or heretic or whatever. Like, I don'tcare. Like, it doesn't matter to me anymore.
So if you're not willing to question or if you'renot allowed to question, then. Red flag. Yeah.
Red flag. Yeah, I could go on about that somuch, but never know, might be a solo episode
(01:11:34):
one day. But sir, what I'll ask you to do forthe next two minutes, please unapologetically
and selfishly plug yourself all that you'vegot going on, where the good folks can see
you and catch up with you. And if they wantto engage in conversation with you as well.
Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity. Soyou can catch the welcome to fatherhood podcast
(01:11:59):
anywhere that podcasts are available. It comesout every Wednesday in the United States beginning
at midnight on Wednesday. So that'd be aboutsix o'clock. If I'm not mistaking, I'll take
you wet for it. I think it's a six hour difference.So six AM. where you were at midnight, where
(01:12:25):
I'm at, um, on Instagram, you can find me atwelcome to fatherhood pod. Feel free to send
me a message. You can also email me at wt fatherhoodpodcast at gmail.com because WTF is not appropriate
because WTF is not appropriate. I did thinkabout abbreviating the title, but I was like,
(01:12:50):
nah, that's It got to be more professional thanWTF.
Recently on the podcast, I've been talking aboutmy personal experience with pregnancy loss
as my wife and I were growing our family. Andso anyone who, any man who is wanting support
(01:13:16):
or to talk to someone who has been through thatand is willing to open up and talk about your
experience. I'm always open to that. What else?Yeah, I think that's it. It's fine. We'll put
it in show notes so people can find it if theymissed it. Just make sure you don't put WTF
(01:13:37):
people. You just need to put rest of fatherhoodin there. Come on now. Yeah. WTF fatherhood.
podcast at gmail.com and welcome to fatherhoodpod on IG. Yes, indeed. So for a time around
you're meeting Kelly and what he's about, butI hope you guys enjoyed the conversation. It
was actually really good. Yeah, really weirdhow a lot of it does resonate with myself and
(01:14:04):
I guess I don't share that side of myself nomore. Well, not as much as I used to, just
because I think I know that it can scare peopleoff. rightly or wrongly, it is what it is.
If you like me, you like me and certain thingsshouldn't matter. It's not that, oh my gosh,
he's a Christian. He's trying to force feedme what? If you like me for what I was putting
out before, you're gonna still like me. Andif you don't, and then you find that's an issue,
(01:14:27):
then that's your business. I don't begrudgeyou for it. Do what you gotta do. I am not
gonna be ashamed of what I believe in and howI feel. I'm happy to help give people hope
where possible because in a hopeless world,we need hope. Thanks. So. I am not ashamed
and I'm happy to keep promoting this. Yeah,I just hope that people can understand that
(01:14:47):
it's so common to believe in something, in people,in a concept, in a faith organization, and
to be let down from the higher ups, just settingyou a dream of saying, were people orientated
or we believe in this faith or we believe inthat? And then when push come to shove, it's
(01:15:09):
something else. and that leaves you feelingaggrieved, you're grieving a loss of the idea,
the future you built up in yourself or everythingyou was ever told and groomed to be and found
that wasn't a reality that was gonna be yours.And I guess I'll ask questions to people, if
you did achieve that reality and then foundthat it was all fictitious, how would you then
(01:15:37):
feel? Because you've built your life on... shakyground. Whereas if you found that beforehand,
you kind of dodged the bullet to a certain degree.But I guess each is valid in terms of how you
feel and what you go through. But I just wantyou to have that conversation yourself, challenge
those thoughts that you feel like are, Oh, Ican't ask that question. Why? If you can't
(01:16:00):
ask the question, that's a red flag. Oh, canI ask it? You might be dating. Oh, can I ask
if he's got a girlfriend? Oh, I don't want todo that. Why? He might get upset. Why is he
getting upset? You might ask a woman, do youhave a boyfriend? She might get upset, why?
Can I ask my boss for a pay rise? Oh, but we'rein a good relationship. Why? Cause they know
(01:16:22):
your worth, you know you're worth more moneythan you can go elsewhere. Don't be scared
to ask questions. If people really care aboutyou and they mess with you like that, trust
me, that one question is not gonna hurt therelationship. They're gonna welcome it and
you can build a conversation around it. Butwhen you don't ask questions, that's when you're
setting yourself up for, and you deserve betterthan that. But Kelly's just sort of giving
(01:16:44):
us a good example of how he navigated the situation.And it's so important when he did say yes,
and he agreed to certain situations, he justbacked out and just, well, didn't back out
straight away, but he went up to him and said,hey, it's not for me. And I encourage anybody
and everybody that feels that way to do it.And don't necessarily let other people. tell
(01:17:05):
you what you're going to be in life. It's niceto have people believe in you like that, but
it's your life and you've got to deal with theconsequences of each and every one of your
actions. Not just because someone said it thatyou feel you have to live it. You've heard
it here before where people say, oh, I wantyou to marry a woman. No, come back with a
(01:17:26):
wife. And the guest said, but what if I don'twant that? What if I don't want that? and you're
putting your mouth on me saying that you wantthis for me and that's not what I want. You've
heard people say, oh, but you know, you shouldhave children. But what if you're infertility,
you have infertility issues and you cannot getpregnant easily that other people can. You're
putting unnecessary pressure on me. I know itcould be said with love, but have a conversation
(01:17:51):
with people. It's very important so people don'tfeel a certain way unnecessarily. But I feel
like I've said a lot and I don't mean to. Ijust felt it was very valid points made across
the board. here in the conversation and I hopethat you guys understand that you're right
now honestly is not your forever and nothingabout a caterpillar taste can be a butterfly
look after yourself I'll catch you next episodesee you then
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