Ep 49 | Bouncing Back: James' Victory Over Psychosis 💪 feat. James Lindsay - Every L Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
After I got let go from my job, initially itwas good because I wanted to get out there
on my own terms. I thought it was a blessingin disguise and it was, but it took me about
six months to get any type of work again. AndI remember being on jobseeker's allowance and
being unemployed and I had nothing really todo with my days other than sort of job search

(00:24):
and stuff. And I just felt I'd got quite baddepression at that point. And that really,
for me, felt like the rock bottom kind of thing.I felt like I'd lost everything. And I became
a proper, like, pessimist, like a glass halfempty type person. I didn't think I'd be able
to get a job again or a girlfriend again. Orlike, even when I went out and I was with friends,

(00:46):
I felt like a burden. And I felt like I hadnothing to contribute to the group. And I was
just like this kind of person who just did nothingand had nothing to really say.

(01:08):
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I'm your host,Mack Brown and you're listening to the Every
L Podcast. Each episode we'll have a differentguest come on and talk about when life hangs
you an L, is it really a loss or is it somethingelse? Because not every L's a loss. So sit
back, relax or do what every guy do to get comfortableas we get into this. Let's go!

(01:39):
Welcome everybody to another episode of Everyopodcast, where we have different guests come
on and talk about whatever it is they feel likewas potentially an L. I say potentially because
when we have this conversation, they'll elaboratelater on if they still consider it being an
L or something else. And the beautiful thingabout these conversations the fact you get
to learn a lot more about a world that isn'tpotentially your own. A lot of us maybe just

(02:04):
live in our lives as blissfully unaware thatwhat's normal to us isn't considered as normal
to someone else. And we make a lot of assumptionsabout the people we interact with and that
is fine. It's kind of like a self-cult mechanismthat we do. It's a little bit lazy admittedly,
but it's what we do to recognise patterns andforms of behaviours. But when you dig a little
bit deeper and you listen to what people haveto say, like what my guests do, you'll realise

(02:28):
there's so many more layers that makes thatindividual who they are and the reason for
why they conduct themselves the way they doat that moment in time. And I am so grateful
to each and every one of my guests that comeon and share what they share because it's extremely
intimate to them. And they're putting themselvesout there to make people feel less alone, who
may be going through similar struggles, butalso to sort of show people, this is how I

(02:50):
navigated that situation. Not necessarily howyou are gonna do it if you're in that situation,
but just giving you a heads up, this is howI done it. And it is so powerful that we just
get rid of any stigma, any defunct any mythsthat are out there that are talking about.
You shouldn't say this, you shouldn't say that.Why is that? Why should people be felt to be
alone? Imagine being in a crowd full of peopleand feeling alone, feeling isolated, feeling

(03:14):
that your opinion, your voice is not worthy.That's absolute rubbish. You are valued, you
are human, you are beautiful. And yeah, youmight be beautifully broken, but a lot of us
are, and that's no shame in it. So I am absolutelyso happy to have this fantastic guest, and
that's a cliche phrase, but I stand by it. Allmy guests are fantastic. I have James who's

(03:36):
gonna jump on and share with us a couple ofL's that he wants to talk about. But before
we get into that, I want to have James justshare a little bit about himself. However,
I'm gonna interrupt his intro and say, thisguy, I've spoken to him a little bit, he's
a really nice guy. He is just down to earth,very open, not open to the point where you

(03:59):
feel like, okay, I've got to read it back inthere. You're just drowning me in information.
It is at a pace where you feel like, wow, sounassuming and been through a lot, but taking
it in his strides when he's conducting himself.And I imagine that takes a lot of strength,
a lot of coping with that. But I have some forhim for reaching out, perhaps offering for

(04:21):
being the person he is and for helping otherpeople feel less alone through the great work
that he's doing, not just in his professionalcapacity, but what he does outside of that.
So... Thank you, James, for being who you areand doing what you do. And if you don't mind,
please introduce yourself. Of course. Thankyou so much for that lovely introduction. So

(04:42):
I'm James. I'm from Watford in Hertfordshire,live in a flat with my fiancee. I'm nearly
33 years old. I work for a mental health charityin the marketing team. And I recently became
an author of a mental illness memoir calledThe Friend in My Brain. So I've sort of wearing
two hats. And I think, yeah, that's mainly me.That's the gist of it. He makes my intro seem

(05:08):
so long-winded and he just knocked out the parkin such a short space of time. My gosh. It's
fine, it's fine. So the first L that James wantsto talk about is psychosis and schizophrenia
disorder. Disorder. Wow. My vocab is shot topieces right now. Can I just say this right?

(05:31):
And I said this the other day to someone else,like offline. When they name these things,
they're not easy to spell. Oh, tell me aboutit. If someone's dyslexic, they got it spelled
weird looking. You've got schizophrenia, you'vegot psychosis. Why are these things not easy
to write so that people can talk about it alot more whereas they're so hard to read, letting

(05:53):
them write that people will just skirt aroundand say, oh, I've just got a condition. What's
that condition? Don't worry about it. So hard.So I'm looking at your L and I'm thinking,
right, you want to talk about your condition,which is great I'd love to know more about
if you don't mind going back to where you feelit's more relevant to start from Maybe when

(06:14):
you first got diagnosis or how you led up togetting that diagnosis wherever you said wherever
you feels appropriate Yeah start from the topand let me know how things have panned out
for why you think this was potentially an LYeah, sure, so The first incident is going
all the way back to 2016. I had my first psychoticepisode, which was triggered by a big breakup.

(06:39):
So I was with someone for three years, and thenit was kind of breaking down for a while, but
we sort of tried to make it work and it didn't.And then the actual breaking up and moving
out of where we lived back to my family home,about a week after that, I just... I wasn't
sleeping because I was like over analysing thesituation in my head and at the same time trying

(07:06):
to carry on with life, like not really givingmyself a break. So like still going to work
and just trying to do it all and just sort ofoverdoing it, not like really neglecting my
sleep and not having the self-awareness to sayyou need to just stop and look after yourself.
And I just got progressively worse. Mum tookme to the doctor. I didn't think anything was

(07:30):
wrong with me, which is quite a common thingwith psychosis is you don't kind of stop and
think, oh, there's something wrong with me.You kind of feel okay. Like you feel almost,
you know, like you can carry on with it andjust keep going. And I was, I was like in denial.

(07:50):
But I was getting worse and worse. So I wastalking really fast without making any sense,
like I was jumping from one subject to the other.And I had like these fixed delusions as well.
So one delusion was that I was being headhuntedfor a job, which never happens. I also thought
I was getting messages from different sources,like from the TV and radio, like coded messages.

(08:15):
And I even thought the weather was speakingto me at one point, as crazy as that sounds.
Um, and before I got taken to A&E, I even thoughtmy brother had like a motive against me, like
that he was tracking me and wanting to harmme and things and which is really so out of
character considering like how close we arenow and that we grew up together. So yeah,

(08:38):
there's lots of out of character behaviour andthat led to being taken to A&E in an ambulance
because my behaviour just got so out of control,mum and dad had to call an ambulance, taken
to hospital and assessed there and then sectioned.So had spent four weeks in a psychiatric ward
just for my own safety and for the safety ofothers. Like I couldn't go home because I was

(09:02):
just in too much of a state. So had to go andspend a month there. And it was really hard,
really traumatic and scary, but necessary because,you know, they needed to sort of put a stop
to it. They needed to give me the medicationto like slow my mind down effectively. make

(09:24):
me sleep again because I've been so sleep deprivedlike my brain was all over the place like it
didn't repair itself like it does when you sleepand I was just yeah in such a state it was
really horrible things to go through like itreally sort of derails you um had to take a
lot of time off work and I took it really badlike I got really depressed I got really frustrated

(09:49):
myself like I found it really hard to get backto life after the illness, like going back
to work and things. So it was really like areal kind of uphill battle back then, like
2016 and 2017 was really difficult time. Andit didn't take, it took me about, I'd say I

(10:10):
didn't start kind of making my recovery until2018, was when I finally managed to kind of
turn the corner and start improving. So yeah,really, really tough time, but I'm in a good
place now, sort of fast forward to now. I hada relapse in 2019, but I've made a lot of good

(10:32):
kind of strides. Like I've recovered and like,because it's such a bad thing, like you wouldn't
wish it on your worst enemy. That's sort ofpart of my motivation to not only keep myself
well, but do this like raising awareness andsharing the story just to help other people
avoid it. And... Also people who have alreadyhappened to them just to give them like, you

(10:53):
know, the message that it does get better, thatyou can get your life back. Cause like when
it happens to you, you almost think like yourlife is over, it really messes you up. And
that's a shame. Wow, it's a lot. So you mentionedthe acronym NE. Could you just explain what
that is for those that may not know what itis? NE. You mentioned that you was gonna go

(11:19):
to NE. Oh, A&E, accident and emergency. A&E,my apologies, I heard NE, my apologies, that's
fine. So when all that happened after the breakup,was there any telling signs prior to the breakup?
I don't think there were, to be honest, becauseI've spoken to family and friends, and I think

(11:41):
there wasn't anything that was overly concerningprior to the breakup. I mean, I was... stressed
and anxious and people were like concerned aboutme. But it was just kind of, I don't want to
say like kind of standard normal breakup stuff.But it was just like, you know, people were
a bit concerned, but it wasn't alarm bells,if that makes sense. It was, it was still kind

(12:06):
of like I was coping just about. I'm interestedbecause everyone copes with things differently
and there might be certain things that triggerone and may not trigger another but unique
to you is you know, if anything was just Thatrub in the wrong way or I dealt with it in
a bad way and that was potentially to the untrainediron that was You going on the path of you're

(12:31):
gonna end up here sooner or later it's trickybecause I tried so hard to kind of make the
relationship work and I think I was puttingall my energy into that and not any energy
into looking after myself. If that makes sense?Yeah. And so then when the breakup was done,

(12:51):
I still wasn't really looking after myself.And it took me a while to get gained that kind
of self awareness. It's brutal. So you had togo through that. It's not nice. No, that's
all right. And I think also back then, my knowledgeof mental health and mental illness was very
minimal. I didn't really have a very good understandingat all. And it wasn't until it happened to

(13:16):
me that I started to get an understanding likethrough the experience. Wow. So when you was
going through your breakup, what were the thingsthat you were doing that were the signs that
you was having a psychotic, it's a psychoticbreakdown or just? Yeah. Yeah, you can call

(13:37):
it that or psychosis, psychotic episode, sortof mean, right? Roundabout the same thing.
I'm learning here. I'm happy to be corrected.You know more of it than I do. Yeah, it was
after the breakup that the breakdown began reallyI kind of the move we moved so we're living

(13:57):
together and then I moved back with family.And then it was about I think it was about
a week after living with family that the signsstarted to unravel, like my not getting any
sleep and talking to like my family and notreally making sense and behaving strangely.

(14:17):
Did you go to the doctor at all off your ownback? No, so the problem was I was in this
like state of denial and my mum and dad likewere very insistent that I had to go to the
doctor and I was kind of going to the doctorjust to kind of appease them rather than actually
thinking I need to go to the doctor. It's like,I was like, Oh fine, I'll go if you insist.

(14:42):
And then I, in my head, I thought we were goingto go to the doctor and the doctor was going
to be like, Oh, you're fine. There's nothingwrong with you. And I was very incorrect about
that. So it's a shame I didn't have the kindof awareness back then, but yeah, it's hard
when you're in that state to kind of see something'swrong with you. Well, you don't know what you

(15:05):
don't know really. So it's hard to sort of beatyourself up over something that I wish I knew
then, but you don't. And... It's hard becausewe're kind of conditioned to push on just like
we have, those of us that are working have some,some have the luxury of being able to call
in sick, but some people don't wanna call insick because they feel guilty calling in sick.

(15:29):
I've caught myself doing it where I'm genuinelynot well. I think I had abscess at one point,
so I was actually wrecked. And if anyone don'tknow what abscess is about getting infection
in your teeth, it's horrible. Abscess, you can'teat, you can't drink, you can't even sleep
the pain off it. horrible, you're living ina form of hell. And I was rehearsing how it
was gonna sound to my boss, calling her up totell her I can't come in. What type of foolishness

(15:54):
is me doing this when I'm in genuine pain that'skept me up throughout the night and I'm putting
on a voice, rehearsing before making a call?But I think that's how we're conditioned by
society where yes, you do get sick leave, itis part of the job description, but you utilize
it, I'm gonna judge you for it. And if thereis something that's not right with you, you

(16:17):
should be able to get checked out without anyfear of judgment by that, by saying, mate,
I'm not feeling 100. I don't think I'm reactingthe way I feel I should be, maybe, just give
me the rundown. Is, am I okay? Or is it somethingelse? And yeah, it's very alien for us. And
unfortunately, from my understanding, it's alot of men that struggle with that in terms

(16:40):
of accepting that. You need to go to GP andactually be honest with the GP, which, you
know, like you said, you went to GP to appeaseyour parents, but you was honest with them,
with the GP, I'll tell you. Yeah, I think thatreally resonates with me though, because back

(17:01):
then in my kind of mid-20s, I was very muchlike a example of a male who didn't want to
seem weak, who kind of wanted to just carryon. And I didn't like... the idea of calling
in sick at that time either. I think I onlydid it when I thought I was physically ill.
I thought back then wrongly that it was onlyif you were physically ill, if you had the

(17:24):
flu or whatever. And I didn't think, you know,having sick days for mental health was a thing
back then. As bizarre as that sounds, like tome now, I just... I thought, yeah, I guess
I was scared of like the judgment and the peerand weak and all that stuff. And yeah, it's

(17:47):
just, it's a shame, like kind of how differentthings were back then. Definitely. So you went
to doctors, they said to you that, yeah, thisisn't right. How did you react to that when
you got told that by your GP? Did you feel relievedor was it something that you just felt like,
ah, damn. I remember being quite scared actuallybecause I remember being in the car on the

(18:12):
way to the GP, mum was driving and I rememberhaving this fear based on maybe a film or TV
programme I'd seen that I was going to be takenaway in a straight jacket type thing and so
yeah I was just worried that something likethat was going to happen to me.

(18:45):
frankly, didn't happen to you. Did it happento you? I mean, it didn't happen to me in the
way my imagination thought it was going to.Because yeah, I think my, at the time, lack
of knowledge and awareness was just, I thoughtthat it was going to be like in the old days
where it was like, it's like an asylum and youget like, forcefully taken, which doesn't happen

(19:07):
anymore, unless it's, you know, absolutely necessary.And so it was all just such a a learning experience
for me, like a steep learning curve, like adiscovering, like all sorts really. Even though
I wasn't in the place to be learning, it waslike just a, it was a shock. Not only my behaviour,

(19:29):
but like that I could, I guess when I was well,I never thought I would be in that situation.
I naively thought like, I would never be oneof those people kind of thing. Yeah, I get
that. So when you had to go in, how was youfeel at that point? I remember being in a taxi

(19:54):
like going from A&E to the wards and I thinkI was just so lost at the time and so in such
a state I didn't even know what was going onreally. I just I think I just sat there thinking
like... I was being taken to, I don't know,a hotel or something. I didn't even really

(20:15):
have much awareness of what was going on andI just, I remember getting to the wards and
thinking I was in a safe house or somethingbecause I was still very delusional at this
point. And yeah, it didn't take until kind ofafter I got there and I realized that it was
just a ward of people who are unwell and NHSstaff, I sort of slowly, I think, put the pieces

(20:41):
together and I kind of realised why I was therebut it was still really scary and I didn't
want to be there and I think the whole, theknowledge that I had to stay there and I couldn't
go home like, as if I was locked up or somethingit was kind of really like scary and I just

(21:02):
remember constantly asking the staff like, whencan I go home? is this going to take? Like,
how long do I have to stay here sort of thing?And they couldn't give me a straight answer
because it kind of depends on your progressand like your, how you respond to the treatment
and things like that. With your mind going away,it was so rapidly just thinking about anything

(21:25):
and everything and trying to connect dots thatmay not have actually been there when you're
talking about, you know, your brother trackingyou and so forth like that, until you got the
medication, how was... How was your mind atthat point? Cause I'm just assuming that you're
in a different place to where you're normallyused to being not a hundred sure what the process
is, even though they might have explained toyou how things will pan out, what the journey,

(21:49):
what the expectation is. But did you get intoa state of panic? Cause I'm, I personally feel
like I would panic in that instance, not tryingto put that on you, but me personally sitting
here thinking about it would be like at thebest of times when I'm unsure of how something's
going to pan out, anxiety kicks in. If my mind'salready racing, that doesn't feel like it's

(22:10):
going to help me. It feels like you need todo something sooner rather than later because
I need answers. There was definitely like, Ican think of one or two examples of panic.
Like I think near the beginning, I was kindof running away from staff for whatever reason,
thinking they were like out to get me. And Iremember also there was another patient who

(22:33):
used to really freak me out. because he hadthis way about him where he would pace up and
down the communal area. And he was like, keepingeye contact with me wouldn't look away from
me, so it really freaked me out. And I stillsort of had my delusion from before I was in
there about being tracks. And I even thoughtit could have been my brother in his body or

(23:01):
he was controlling him or something weird likethat. And it was just like, I was just so delusional
and all over the place. It was, it's almostlike in comprehensive or some of the stuff
that was going through my head. It's just sofar away from my normal reality. It was just,

(23:22):
cause your mind just comes up with all sortsof ideas and conclusions. And you just kind
of, you don't really, I guess you don't questionthe logic that you're unwell or the lack of
logic even. You just kind of, you don't knowwhat to believe. Yeah. And I'm interested in

(23:44):
the answer to this question because again, it'ssomething I feel some men are not, at least
another gets openly admit to it. How receptivewas you to take your medication if you had
to take medication? I think I was mostly goodwith it apart from like, I remember one time
being asleep in my room and being like wokenup by one of the staff because they wanted

(24:09):
to give me pills. And I remember I might havebeen a bit rude to them because they woke me
up and everything. I was just really annoyed,like thinking like I'm already asleep. Why
are you giving me medication to, you know, Ifeel like the medication has already done the
job and you woke me up sort of thing. And beingreally like... grumpy about it, but I think

(24:34):
the staff in there are quite used to peoplebehaving in all sorts of ways. But I think
for the most part I was receptive because Ithought, eventually I thought if I'm going
to get out of here, I need to comply. I needto behave myself, do everything they ask of

(24:54):
me. And I think there was a little part of methat kept saying, that's your best chance of
getting out of here. sooner rather than later.Just take the medication, you know, do what
they're asking you and hopefully it will beover sooner rather than later. That's fair
enough. And with all of that, and you said ittook about a month before you was discharged.

(25:17):
Yeah. How did you feel when you were discharged?Initially, I felt really amazing. I remember
sitting in the back of mum and dad's car headinghome thinking, again, a bit naively thought,
worst of it was over and like I thought I wouldjust kind of go back to how life was before

(25:38):
it all started but it was only kind of the startof the recovery in some ways so it's like an
initial like thank god I'm going home becausethe whole time I've been in the ward I just
want to be at home and now I'm finally gettingwhat I want but then when I was home I just
it didn't take me long to fed up with my situationas it was then. Like I had the, so the aftercare

(26:05):
I received at one point, I think every day therewas people from the mental health team visiting
my house to check up on me and like talk tome and my mom and like make sure I was, you
know, still taking my medication and doing thingslike that. Cause that, that sort of partly
agreement when they send you home is this onthe. on the, what's it called, agreement that

(26:31):
you're gonna like do this, that and the other.So yeah, after I got home, I was kind of just
fed up of not being at work, and fed up of takingmedication and I can yeah, I remember being
very bored and very impatient, like just wantingto crack on with life and just put the whole

(26:53):
experience behind me and just sort of forgetabout it. And how was work about it? Were they
quite supportive? Yeah, I felt quite lucky withwork because they gave me enough time off like
after I got home from the wards, but they alsoput a phased return back, a return plan in

(27:14):
place for me. So I think I started on doingtwo days a week and they were half days rather
than four days. So it was just like startingwith a tiny bit hours and then building up
which which kind of happened, but it wasn'teasy. Like I thought I was be able to increase

(27:41):
my hours, like fine, but it was really hardbecause doing my commute and then doing a job
under all the sedation medication proved likereally, really difficult. But work like did
all they could. Like I had a monthly meetingwith HR, my line manager, and they also sent

(28:01):
me to like an occupational. So it was like adoctor off site off. So I had to like get the
tube and go and see this doctor about once amonth. And yeah, it didn't work out in the
end. Like I had to be let go. It was like asettlement agreement. So it's like a form of
it's kind of like being made redundant similarto that. But I feel like my employer did pretty

(28:28):
much everything they could. The only thing whichI always say. might have helped is being able
to work from home a bit but back then, sortof like 2016-17, people didn't really work
from home back then, like it was only the kindof the higher up managers who did it and like

(28:48):
people at my level only really did it if theywere maybe as an alternative to being off sick
or you know unless it was absolutely necessarylike no one really worked from home everyone
was expected to be in the office five days aweek. Fair enough. And you got a bit of hand
a lot now? Yeah, fortunately, I'm on a medicationnow, which has the best of both worlds, because

(29:11):
it gives me the benefit of being able to goto sleep and stop my recent thoughts, but the
side effects aren't overbearing. Like I canget up in the morning, and I can, I don't forget
that the brain fog like I feel, I can thinkclearly and everything. So yeah, I feel lucky
that I've got that balance. And the medicationsto me, it's a godsend. I wouldn't be able to

(29:37):
live the life I live now without it. So I'mhappy to be on it for a long term because it's
just what's best for me. Love that. And if you'regonna say that was an L, would you still consider
it an L or would you call it something else?I don't know, because I feel like I'm doing

(30:00):
my best sort of turning it from a negative toa positive. And as really, as bad as it all
sounds, and as much as I hated it, like it'sthe worst time of my life, I wouldn't change
any of it, because it's led me to where I amnow. And a lot of good things have happened,

(30:21):
kind of, as I've recovered. Like it's... sortof opened doors for me and I've been able to
help people like I work for mental health charitynow and I've been able to, even outside of
my job, I've been able to help people raiseawareness, like reduce stigma and things like
that. If that, does that make sense? Yeah, itdoes, it does. So I'm glad to hear that you're

(30:47):
trying to take the positives out of it and youwouldn't change your thing, which given how
you started it off, sound like maybe there mighthave been a hint of. I would probably change
something, but it's nice and endearing to hearyou say you wouldn't change a thing. Can I
ask during that process, let's say from 2016up until when you got discharged, or yeah,

(31:08):
let's say when you got discharged, when wasyour lowest point? And what was you doing to
deal with it? So that what was your reactionto it? I say lowest point was after I got let
go from my job.
good because I wanted to get out there on myown terms. I thought it was a blessing in disguise

(31:30):
and it was, but it took me about six monthsto get any type of work again. And I remember
being on jobseeker allowance and being unemployedand I had nothing really to do with my days
other than sort of job search and stuff. AndI just felt I'd got quite bad depression at

(31:53):
that point. And that really, for me, felt likethe rock bottom kind of thing. I felt like
I'd lost everything. And I became a proper,like, pessimist, like a glass half empty type
person. I didn't think I'd be able to get ajob again or a girlfriend again. Or like, even

(32:13):
when I went out and I was with friends, I feltlike a burden. Like I felt like I had nothing
to contribute to the group. And I was just likethis kind of person who just... like did nothing
and had nothing to really say.
So it was proper, difficult kind of, it waslike being in a pit, to be honest, like a metaphorical

(32:36):
pit, like an uphill kind of environment. Wouldyou say it's like ice skating, trying to ice
skate uphill? Yeah, it felt like it at the time.But I did volunteering, so that was the...
I got like a temp job with my old employer tohave like a little part-time pay job, but alongside

(32:58):
that I did volunteering. And the volunteeringwas in marketing, which is what I did for my
degree. But up until that point, I hadn't reallyused it. So it was like starting at the bottom
of the career ladder again. But it was a reallynice kind of no pressure way to kind of build
some experience. And... It was through charityas well, so it was a breath of fresh air compared

(33:23):
to like doing a corporate job again. And thatkind of gave me a new lease of life. And I
sort of did that and then I started doing abit more exercise and that kind of led to more
exercise and like feeling better. And so I wasable to kind of start looking at things more

(33:45):
glass half full and like more kind of optimistic.that make sense? Yeah. It does because the
second part of the question was how did youdeal with it? Because when people tend to be
in a really bad place, how they react tendsnot to be in a very healthy way. Did you lash
out or did you act in any negative way duringthat time? Because I'm happy to hear that you've

(34:07):
you found something where you could do yourcharity, your volunteering work, you could
get a bit of part time work for your previousemployer. And eventually, the groundwork was
being laid in terms of you getting into a betterstate of mind, which is fantastic. But before
you got to that part, how was you reacting whenyou was not in a good place after you was let
go using a bit of depression? I don't want tosay that. I said, bit of depression that I

(34:31):
do apologize. I don't mean to minimize it bysaying bit of depression, because that's not
the case. I mean, in terms of you had depression,you weren't in a great place. How was you reacting
at that moment? Yeah, I remember going on the,like these, walks with my mum and she would
kind of try and steer me in the right directionand kind of try and help and sometimes I wouldn't,

(34:56):
I don't know if I quite lashed out but I'd kindof say you know oh you don't know what it's
like being on this medication and you know yousay that but you don't know that and all those
kind of things like I kind of I know she waslike trying her best and trying to help, but

(35:18):
I was kind of, it was, I guess it was hard toconvince me and hard to, because I really lost
my get up and go by that point. And so I guessI wasn't the easiest to be around because I'd
kind of, it's like I turned the conversationback towards me being sad and negative, or

(35:41):
I haven't understand like looking at the brightside and I wasn't really, practicing gratitude
back then either. Like now I'm really great,grateful for what I have. But back then, even
though things were really bad, I still had aroof over my head, like a loving family and
friends. And I had my health. And I wasn't kindof thinking of it that way. I was thinking

(36:05):
about what I didn't have. So I can imagine itwas kind of difficult for mum and dad to kind
of, I can imagine they were sort of thinkinglike, oh, like we've tried everything and he's
not kind of believing us sort of thing becausethey were talking sense, like they were just

(36:27):
doing the right thing, they were saying theright things I think. But also another thing
which kind of got me back on the right trackwas I started to read other books and like
blogs, other people that had mental illness,so my mum read this memoir. about someone who
had been sectioned three times and he had bipolardisorder. And I didn't really want to read

(36:52):
it and I thought I'll go on and I'll give ita try. And I was hooked. And I was really like
intrigued by it because it was like the author'swords on the page were my own thoughts, like
about how it was to be ill. And that just mademe reflect and like resonate a lot. And I thought

(37:15):
if these people who I'm reading about can like,make me feel this good, like this, like better
about myself, then potentially I should stop,I should start sharing and like, instead of
trying to bury the feelings and forget aboutwhat happened, like start opening up. So I

(37:37):
think it was a combination of that and likewhat I said before, like the volunteering and
the exercise, so finally got me out of that.mindset and managed to kind of put the worst
of it behind me. That's great. So is that whatyou tell your younger self, knowing what you
know now, going back in time to that low pointwhere you was going through and you're struggling

(38:02):
to deal with it in a healthy way? What are youtelling yourself? And how would you have to
say it for yourself to hear what you're saying?Yeah, so there's like a At the end of my book,
there's like a letter from myself to my pastself. And in this letter, it's like me talking

(38:25):
to the person who was like recently out of theward and like depressed. And one of the things,
the first thing was about getting the medicationright, because I spent a lot of time on the
medication, which wasn't working for me, likeit was too sedating. But back then, I almost
thought... That was as good as it was goingto get. And it took me a long, long time to

(38:48):
actually say to doctors, like, I'm really notdoing well on these medication. Can you, is
there anything else that you could try differentthat might work better? So I think that was
like a really important part of it. And I'dalso kind of say to my younger self to sort

(39:11):
of... Try and spend time with people, friendsand stuff, even though you feel like you don't
want to, it always gives you a boost. So it'slike, keep making the effort to see people.
And I guess discover things that you enjoy.So try different exercises and find ones that

(39:34):
you enjoy. You and me were just talking aboutearlier how I enjoy football, because I don't
even notice I'm doing it running because I'mso zoned in on the game. and like try and find
exercise that's not a chore and yeah try andtry and spend time with people who you know
make you feel good about yourself um i guessthose are the sort of the main things i'd tell

(39:56):
past me and do you think that if you said itjust like that you'd have been receptive to
that information and acted accordingly i'd liketo think so yeah i can't guarantee but i feel
like those would be kind of what i needed tohear Is there any other way that you could
potentially present it to yourself and you would?There'll be a higher possibility of you hearing

(40:19):
it because what I'm assuming here and correctme if I'm wrong Your parents had some solid
stuff to you whilst using that state and youdidn't hear it For one reason or another so
even if you came along and said it What's thendifferent from what your parents said to them
what you're saying to yourself? Would it haveto be a matter of you'd have to get yourself

(40:40):
on a one-on-one environment? playing a game,going for a walk or anything like that to help
it sink in more than someone just talking atyou. Yeah, because I guess the talking, the
parents things were like, I was kind of hearingwhat they were saying but not believing them.
Like kind of thinking that like, I don't know,that's not, not that it's not true, but if

(41:03):
they suggested doing some sort of exercise class,I just assume I wouldn't enjoy it. Whereas
if I had someone who's been also been throughmental illness say, oh, I tried this class
and it really worked for me. I think it's thekey, like listen to someone if they've got
lived experience of what you've been through,that's when you're going to start believing

(41:26):
them. You're going to say, okay, you were alsomentally ill on medication sedated, but this
is what helps. Because I think that was thething like my parents didn't have any mental
illness experience themselves. So it was likeI couldn't resonate and relate to him as much
type of thing. So representation is important.You need to see someone that's been through

(41:49):
what you're going through or have been through.Yeah, I think as a human being, we really crave
that. Like we want the kind of shared experience.And I think that's part of why I do what I
do is because I remember the effect it had onme. Kind of it gives you hope that, you know,
you can do thanksimilarly yourself. And it alsomakes you feel less alone. Because I think

(42:11):
I felt really alone after my first episode.And it wasn't until I started reading that
book, which gave me a sense of like, oh, maybethere's like hundreds, thousands, millions
of us out there who are silently struggling.And that was the difference, like from wanting
to learn more about it and open up. That's whatkind of changed my mind.

(42:47):
Yeah, no, it's fair enough. Appreciate that.Thank you very much for sharing. So you're
right, for us to go on to the next L. Yeah.So the next L that you would like to talk about
is my book, Befriend in My Brain, a PsychosisStory. So I'm interested because hearing what
you've just said, I can imagine, I'm waitingfor you to correct me, that talking so openly

(43:13):
about a condition that you have. could go very,very right, but also it could potentially alienate
you from a lot of people because people mightthink, oh, he's not quotation mark normal.
He's got something in quotation mark wrong withhim. And the reality is that we've all got

(43:33):
mental health that needs to be exercised andnurtured and looked after. And all of us have
the potential of falling into any of these numerouscategories that people have mental health conditions.
So, Yeah, before I continue, I commend you againfor writing the books. I think it's fantastic
that you've done that. But I can I personallythink that to put yourself in such a vulnerable

(43:56):
position potentially is where this L comingfrom. But I'm happy to be corrected. Please
go back to the beginning where you feel is appropriateand tell me why you put this as potentially
one of your L's. I think before I started writingthe book, I was actually scared of that kind
of fear of being judged and being people thinkingI was, you know, weird or whatever, like, and

(44:21):
treat me differently and the whole stigma, likebeing like experiencing stigma, I think I was,
it was definitely a concern. And I think beforeI had my first blog, like, published and before
I got before I sent it to the website whereI got published, I was very hesitant and I

(44:44):
kind of had to talk it through with mum anddad like, you know, should I do this? And like,
what, what should I be aware of, like the kindof risks and things that could happen? And
the same when I was, I shared that blog on mysocial media, it was like coming out, it was
like a big reveal to everyone that I have thismental illness. And it was the same for the

(45:06):
book, I kind of, I started, I kind of startedit because I wanted to help people. And I thought
that drive to do the right thing. sort of overridedthe scary part, the part where I sort of doubted
myself that, you know, people wouldn't likethe book and it wouldn't like end well for

(45:29):
me and all those little kind of doubts you get.But it definitely seemed like one of those
things where the benefits outweigh the potentialdrawbacks. And it's definitely, I feel like
it's one of the best decisions I made becauseit's... putting all the words, what happened
to me down on a word document, it was like theall about feelings kind of evaporated from

(45:54):
my head and they transferred invisibly ontothe document. And then they were in front of
me instead of being in my head, they were infront of me. And then I could just process
it better. And I could understand that.
And it was it was very therapeutic, like someof my sessions writing the book. I spend about

(46:14):
half an hour having a long writing and I'lljust come out of it feeling really good, like
really uplifted and really excited, like reallypositive emotions. And it's definitely been,
since the book's come out, it's been a reallyenjoyable ride. Like I kind of, I think that's
why I refer to it as like another kind of learningexperience, another like, not so much a roller

(46:40):
coaster up and down, but like a kind of... getthese highs, like you get a review which is
good and people were saying good things whoaren't biased, like a review might be from
a completely randomer, and it's like just completelyjustifies doing it in the first place and it's
led to so many good things, like I've gone toa book festival, met other authors and it's

(47:03):
led to lots of conversations from people whoI know and don't know. So... Yeah, I'm just
really grateful that I was able to do it andget out there. Because it's like. It's one
of those things that I'm glad it's out therebecause it it'll be gone. It'll be. Around

(47:25):
longer than I'll be around, and hopefully oneday like kids, grandkids, if I have them, they'll
see that I did it and be proud and stuff likethat. So it's I'm just really pleased with
how it's turned out. that's great because Ihave this thing where if I get anxious about

(47:47):
something I have to get it out of my head Ilike in when there's too much stuff going on
my head I like it to write it on a napkin there'snot enough space for me to be able to write
out what I want to write out and it's not legiblebecause it's too small when I talk to the right
people I say the right people because thereare some people you can talk to and they just
don't help the situation anyway at any way shapeor form they just bring you further down. But

(48:11):
when you've got the right people and you cantalk to them or you've given yourself a nice
blank canvas of a good size, you've got morearea to write on and to work on and then you
can actually read it without straining or strugglingto remember what you wrote and rearrange it
and play around with it and just feel what you'refeeling without any judgment. But when it's
crammed up with that napkin, you don't knowwhat you're feeling from what you're not feeling

(48:33):
because it's all overlapping, it's all crunchedup into one. mushed up place. My vocabulary
is short, I'm so sorry folks. But I just likedthe idea that you managed to get those thoughts,
those feelings and everything else onto paperand it felt good for you. When was the point
where you felt like, I need to do this? Wasthis when you read that other book about schizophrenia

(48:57):
or was this another time where it triggeredyou to go, I wanna write a book? Yeah, it was
a combination of things. So that book I mentionedwas part of the driving force, which led me
to doing the blog. And then when you start doingblogs, you discover other people doing blogs.
And I followed this girl who had bipolar andshe posted a new blog saying, oh, the secret's

(49:24):
out, I'm gonna be an author. And I was like,oh, okay, check this out. See what she's talking
about. And then she said, oh yeah, this mental.illness publisher, specialist publisher, and
a publishing my memoir. And then that led tome discovering my publishers website. And it

(49:46):
was just like one of those light bulb Eurekamoments. It's like, I'm having such a good
experience writing and I'm enjoying readingother people's stories. I think I got enough
material like in my brain to put down in a Worddocument and hopefully turn into a book. And
I really just wanted to pass on the feelingthat I'd gotten from reading other people's

(50:09):
books. I want someone to read mine and to feelbetter and to like to feel hope or to think
about someone that, oh, I know someone who mightbenefit from this book and then pass it on.
Like all those good things that come with it.I think it's amazing how like it works and

(50:30):
like it's such a good community. it's a similarthing with podcasts, to be honest, like you
listen to one and the guests they're talkingto might be from another podcast. So you follow
them on social media. And then before you knowit, you're following all these different podcasts
and it's just like a nice sort of domino snowballeffect where you discover different people.

(50:51):
And yeah, I know sometimes social media is abit, it can be a bit bad press and it can be
a bit toxic and not like bad for people's mentalhealth, but I feel like. In some ways it can
also be a really good, like a driving forcefor good. It can help people discover some
really nice things as well. Oh, indeed. I definitelyagree with that. It's nice that you managed

(51:16):
to get yourself in that position. Did you haveany form of anxiety or any reservations about
doing this? Like, writing it down is one thing,but publishing it is another thing. I think
I... wasn't sure I'd have enough, I'd be ableto make it long enough. Like I didn't think
I would be able to produce enough chapters forit to be long enough to be a book. I think

(51:41):
I also wasn't sure my story would be good enough.Like it would be interesting enough and it
would help people. I kind of had all these selfdoubts and a bit of imposter syndrome and things
like that. And yeah, I just, I kind of... Iguess I had a little worry maybe the book would
be a sort of quote unquote failure like it wouldn't,no one would buy it and it would just be a

(52:07):
big waste of time and they weren't huge likethoughts and worries but I think it was just
a tiny part of me was and I think it's normalwhen you kind of go into a project like that
you kind of have those kind of self doubts butI managed to get to quite a good place where
I was saying to myself that writing these chaptersis making me feel good. It's very putic and

(52:35):
I kind of decided, I almost made a promise withmyself that no matter what happens with the
outcome of the book, it's time well spent becauseit's doing me a lot good and then once I started
thinking like that, that was really, that helpeda lot because then I saw it as like a win-win
situation, like, no matter what happens, I'veput my story down. and it's made me feel better

(53:01):
so that that's like enough. Amazing. I can see.I'm going to say you're a better man than me.
But I think I'm putting myself down more thanI actually should be. But I think in terms
of being able to be able to put your situationlike that out there for other people to see,

(53:22):
even though, you know, you've gone to a ward,you've been there for a month and you already
was previously concerned about how people canperceive you. I think that's a very, very bold
thing to do. And I think that's highly commendable.It's just I don't know where the resolve came
from. why it was there. So if you're not callingthat L, what are you calling it? Well, the

(53:44):
whole book experience. Yeah, man, the book pro,like you birthing that book and making that
happen. There's so many things I could use todescribe it, like a journey and a project,
a project, like just a, it's like putting myselfout into the world, isn't it? It's like, it's
like my imprint on society or something likethat. It's like my... contributing to society

(54:09):
like my because I'm always like trying to helppeople like it's one of the reasons I work
at a charity and I try and do good, like tryingto do my bit. But I feel like the books, the
biggest example of that it's like the biggestway I could contribute and like do my bit is

(54:31):
the book. That's fair enough. So if we go back,when was your most challenging time writing
that book? I had some times where I guess Ihad a bit of a rise block and also certain
chapters were hardest to write than others becauseI had to revisit the trauma. So I had to like

(54:58):
dig really deep into my mind, because... I thinkI had almost tried to lock the trauma away
and like the really bad memories, I didn't wantto think about them, but I had to think about
them. And to write the book and also the booksgot a few. It's got free like chat pieces with

(55:19):
other people. It's like a conversation withones with my mom, ones with my partner, ones
with my best friends. So actually, Having thosechats with those people and recording them,
that was hard as well, just because I knew thatI was going to be having difficult conversations.

(55:41):
And I knew they were going to say things aboutme when I was ill and potentially things that
I didn't remember. Because with psychosis, alot of your behavior and your actions, you
don't actually remember them. And it makes youfeel really kind of like embarrassed I guess

(56:02):
and a bit regretful. So I guess though thatwas kind of the hardest bit about writing the
book it was just revisiting the version of mewhich I didn't like, with that you know I wish
I'd never treated people badly when I was ill.Um so yeah revisiting that whole thing was

(56:26):
not easy but it was still... worth doing likein the long run, I think. So what are you saying
to your younger self then when you're findingit difficult? And I don't know, was you potentially
gonna pack it in? Was it ever a point whereyou felt like you weren't gonna continue this?
What, pack in the book? Yeah. Yeah, I think.Cause I spent the best part of four years writing

(56:53):
it but it wasn't like a continuous. process,like I wouldn't do the same amount of writing
every week. Some weeks I'd do a lot and someweeks I'd do absolutely nothing. Because I
knew it wasn't like a proper project that hada deadline, so I didn't put pressure on myself

(57:15):
like, oh, you've got to finish it by this time.I just thought, you know, there's no pressure,
it's just my little hobby kind of thing. SoI guess I almost thought like... am I going
to run out of things to write about but that'sokay because sometimes you can't really think
of it but then another time it just sort ofpops in your head. So I kept doing this thing

(57:41):
where when I was out and about I would justmake a little note on my phone like write about
so and so and I did that. So I kind of madea brief note about what my thought was. and
then I could expand on that note and write moreof the book. Nice. So with all that being said,

(58:03):
do you think there would have been a time thatyou could have gone back to your younger self
to encourage you to push through or do you feelyou didn't need that? You felt that you got
there in adequate time without any real resistance?I feel, yeah, I feel like the second one. I
feel quite, I think I had the right attitude.I didn't. know give myself a deadline or put

(58:29):
pressure on myself because I knew it wasn'ta work thing. I just as I said before had that
kind of deal with myself that whatever happensthis writing is therapeutic for me so just
take it easy like just one step at a time justit'll be done when it's done. And when you

(58:52):
got to a point where it was done and you hadthe chance to submit it to the publisher or
not because there was always that possibility.What made you go through just going send? I
think it was like, I discovered the publisherI wanted and I did a bit of research on the
industry. I went to an online webinar aboutthe whole process. So I sort of knew what I

(59:19):
was up against and I did have a few months whereI was emailing different publishers and agents
trying to get somewhere with it and I wasn'tgetting much luck but then I found a publisher
who did like self-publishing packages whichis effectively where you pay for a package

(59:40):
which like they do proofreading and check-inand like there's loads of stuff included and
it's just a more realistic way of getting yourbook out there. So I got to that point. And
I think what I actually found quite difficultwas, is this book finished? Should I submit
this manuscript now or should I wait and seeif anything else happens to me, which is worth

(01:00:05):
writing about, and then add a bit more to thebook and then send it off? So, and I was told
that authors actually get this quite a lot.It's hard to let go because once you send the
manuscripts to the publishers, you're allowed,you can still make edits kind of as you're...
working up towards the cutoff point but thenthere is actually a cutoff point where they

(01:00:28):
can't accept any more MNs or edits or additionsfrom you and it's like so that's the version
it's going to go out as and that's final. SoI think I did quite it quite hard to like say
oh please can you include this one more thingthat I've discovered and yeah that was a tricky

(01:00:49):
but it is what it is. Fantastic. And I justthink this probably, well actually what's the
feedback been about your book before I makethe assumption? What has the feedback been
for your book so far? The reviews on Amazonhave been really good. It's been, lots of people
actually said they read it in a day, which ispossible because it's only, it's 160 pages.

(01:01:17):
So it's possible to read it in a day. And Itake that as like a. a good thing because it
means it's a sort of, but they can't put itdown. So it's been really nice to hear all
those things. It gives me a boost because Iwasn't, I thought it might be good, but I didn't
believe myself that it was good until I gotlike non-biased opinions and reviews coming

(01:01:42):
back. Fantastic. Yeah. That's great. So. I thinkit's fair enough we can conclude this because
you don't have to tell yourself anything becauseyou pushed through, you backed yourself. You
knew that there was gonna be some benefit tothis. Like you said before in a previous L

(01:02:04):
where you read someone else's story and youwas hooked on it and you just made that connection.
I think that's beautiful and that's part ofthe reason why this podcast for me is so personal
and how many people relate to other people'sstories, hearing what's going on. Some people
unearth some traumas that they've probably experienced,but not been able to articulate. And I just

(01:02:25):
love that we can use the internet in such apositive way rather than the toxic way that
we're usually exposed to. What I'd like youto do for the next two minutes, please selfishly
plug anything and everything you got going onand where people can find you. Yeah, sure.
On socials, I'm... James Lindsay 23 on Twitterand I'm James Lindsay underscore 23 on Instagram.

(01:02:54):
And the book is called Befriend in my Brain,a psychosis story. And you can find it on Amazon
in both paperback and Kindle versions. And I'verecently actually not so long ago finished
recording the audiobook version of it as well.So that's not quite there yet, but hopefully.

(01:03:16):
in the next month or two that'll be availableas well. So it's in all the formats. So it's
in Amazon, it's on the Waterstones website.It's not in many stores yet. We're trying to
get in more bookshops, but that's a work inprogress. But yeah, the easiest way to access
it is Amazon, I think. And it's Lindsay witha I, not with a Y. Yeah, L-I-N-D-S-A-Y. There's

(01:03:41):
about four or five different ways to spell mysurname, so it's fair enough if... Definitely.
So all the details will be in the show notesso you can check it down there. And yeah, we'll
keep in contact. But I absolutely love you comingon the show and how much you did and hopefully
guess the guest hopefully listens now I've heardand understand why I praise you so highly because

(01:04:03):
your honesty your rawness of your situation.I think a lot of us who are potentially of
our age group can remember seeing things onTV where they portrayed if someone was to be
sectioned, they would be carted off in a whitesuit that's got clips on it where they just,
they can't use their arms anymore, thrown intothe back of a wagon, taken down to this padded

(01:04:26):
room, and that's where they're gonna stay untilthey're better in quotation marks. And the
reason why I think it's scary is because untilwe know someone that occupies that space or
has lived that experience, We don't know anydifferent because no one's come out and spoken
about it because it's taboo. You know, oncefor the time, I used to think when you complete

(01:04:50):
an application form, it says, what ethnicitydo you see yourself? Not an issue. Do you have
any issues that you feel we should need to knowabout, like mental health issues or physical
disabilities? And I'm thinking, no, cause thatwas always the case for myself. But I never
looked at it thinking, well, some people mightbe paranoid thinking my ethnicity might be
a sticking point. My... my learning disabilitymight be a sticking point. My physical disability

(01:05:15):
might be a sticking point. Not saying that itshould be at all, but if you then had to say,
I've had psychosis, I've had this, I've hadthat, you've then gotten something else to
concern yourself with which I never really thoughtabout previously. It's only through these type
of conversations that you learn and think, wow,a lot of us are going through things and we
just need to appreciate that what may be somethingeasy for you to deal with or overcome. isn't

(01:05:40):
necessarily easy for someone else to do thesame as well. But I just appreciate your honesty
because I can only imagine what it's like tobe, being sectioned like that and having to
deal with feeling that way that you need thatlevel of support. And if you're a prideful

(01:06:00):
person, like going to the dentist, go to a GPjust to appease your parents, but in reality,
honest and that's important, you was honestwith the GP, you accepted the help they offered
you and still steady the cause. That is so powerful.And that's not just telling people what to

(01:06:21):
do, you're living proof of what good can comefrom doing that. And not everything's a conspiracy.
I'm not saying everyone's wrong for thinkingthings are conspiracy, because I'll be honest
with you. I used to go to a GP and I honestlylooked at the books and the shelves and I thought
the last thing they read is the thing they'regonna diagnose me with. Because... It's freshening
their memory, right? But I know sometimes wecan have conspiracy theories rightly or wrongly,

(01:06:45):
but I think it's so important that if you needto look after yourself, but you do not have
that piece of paper, that PhD after your name,that says you know what's wrong with yourself
and you can self-diagnose yourself, which doctorsdon't even do themselves, don't run the risk.
If you can seek the help, get the help and just...just do what you need to do to look after yourself

(01:07:07):
and just know even if you are going throughsomething, you're not the only one going through
it. James just admitted that he read a bookfrom someone else about their condition and
it lit a fire in him. And now he's out herewith author, doing audio books as well. So,
you know, whatever situation you find yourselfin, just don't think it's your forever. And

(01:07:27):
there's no reason why you can't turn that negativeinto a positive because technically, it's-
in your control is how you perceive things.James also had times where he didn't see things
very glass half full, glass half empty majorityof the time, but he then learned how to flip
it on his head and find a positive. He got himselfout in groups, he found something he enjoyed,

(01:07:48):
and that's something where when you're in depression,it's very hard to discover. But if you can
hold onto that, find that thing that keeps yousmiling, that thing that keeps you motivated,
that thing that helps you see life in color,not just in black and white, you're winning.
and just keep in that space as long as you canuntil you can keep a healthy, you can hope
to make this about yourself to live a fulfilledlife that you deserve to live. So I feel like

(01:08:12):
I probably preached it. I do apologize folks.You know how passionate I get at this stuff
like this, but I wish you all the best. I thankJames once again for jumping on and just remember,
well actually no, let me change it up. And foreveryone, the new phrase that I've come across
that I came up with and I like it. So everyonejust remember, An L is not a loss unless you

(01:08:33):
stop right now. An L is only a couple of lettersaway from a lesson. Enjoy the rest of your
day and whatever you do and I'll see you inthe next one. Take care.

All Episodes

Ep 49 | Bouncing Back: James' Victory Over Psychosis 💪 feat. James Lindsay

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 49 | Bouncing Back: James' Victory Over Psychosis 💪 feat. James Lindsay