August 7, 2023 • 64 mins
Anni shares her transformative experiences with humanistic psychology and one-to-one therapy. She discusses her journey from living in the countryside, to leading workshops and partnering with leaders. Anni opens up about the significant loss and shock she experienced with her first ectopic pregnancy and how it affected her sense of purpose and direction.
Anni shares her personal story of loss and finding meaning, and how she was eventually able to become a proud mother of two daughters despite initial doubts. Anni highlights the significance of her name and reflects on her experiences in the gardening world, drawing inspiration from permaculture and the concept of growth happening at the edges.
I am impressed and grateful to have had the opportunity to have this conversation with Anni. Her honesty, resilience, and unique perspective on personal growth make for an inspiring episode.
Follow me on Instagram: @EveryLPodcast for exclusive content
More about Anni:
Anni Townend is a Leadership Partner, Coach and Mentor to Executive Teams and Senior Leaders, as well as being an Author, Facilitator, Entrepreneur and Podcast Host of Leaders in Conversation with Anni Townend.
With more than 30 years’ of experience, Anni has built a strong reputation of unlocking leadership confidence, capability and performance in organisations across various markets. She has also written extensively on the topics of Assertiveness and Diversity in the workplace. Anni passionately believes in the power of open conversation and is known for incorporating the Walk and Talk in all her work - in-person and virtually - with individuals, teams, and large groups in organisations. She is skilled at helping create a safe environment in which people feel seen, heard and understood and are able to have the conversations that matter to them.
Socials: Instagram: @leadersinconversation LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anni-townend-leadership
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
with my partner, became pregnant, was happy,delighted, felt really confident in my body
and my work in myself and was doing work withwomen-only groups on, you know, our body, ourselves
(00:21):
was a book that informed my practice. I wasvery involved in a number of different communities
and then this thing happened and it was a tremendousloss on a par but very different from the sense
of loss of identity I had felt in my late teenswhen I had the really traumatic experience
(00:47):
and clearly having an ectopic pregnancy at threemonths was very traumatic. and was also life
threatening.
(01:08):
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I'm your hostMatt Brown and you're listening to the EveryL
Podcast. Each episode we'll have a differentguest come on and talk about when life hangs
you an L, is it really a loss or is it somethingelse? Because not every L's a loss. So sit
back, relax or do what I let you guys do toget comfortable as we get into this. Let's
(01:32):
go.
Welcome everybody to another episode of EveryL Podcast. Where we have different guests come
on and share their experiences that they'vegone through in life. If you don't understand
the concept of what an L is, an L, if you lookat it in binary terms in life, you're either
(01:53):
gonna win or you're gonna lose. You might stackthings up in a certain way. You've done all
the prep work, all the ground work, and theday comes, the occasion comes, and you just
flop. It just doesn't deliver like you wantit to. And that feels like a major L that you're
holding. And at that point, you might want theEarth to open up and swallow you in, or just
to curl up on a ball and not see the world forthe rest of the year. Whatever it is, it's
(02:17):
not a good feeling. But it doesn't necessarilymean that L that you've caught at that moment
will always be a L later on in life when youlook back. And that's what we're gonna talk
about with these various lovely guests thatI have on. And I'm so grateful for each and
every one of them for taking the time out toshare these stories and to be as open and honest
and to help other people feel less alone. Nowas I say as always, it's very cliche but it's
(02:40):
so accurate, I have another fantastic guess.This individual I've known for about a year
now or something like that. But you know whenyou have such good time speaking and getting
to know someone over a period of time that youdon't really put a time scale to it, you're
just like, good vibes, good people, checkingon them, see what they're doing. And secretly,
part of the reason why you hang around themas much as you do is because you're inspired
(03:03):
by them, how they conduct themselves, how they...perform the daily tasks they do and don't get
it wrong what you see on social media isn'tnecessarily reality and I'm very aware of that
however if they're consistently showing up andthe things they put out the standards they
maintain are things that you want to do as welloh hold on to them hang around them as much
as possible and this person is no exceptionto that she also a podcast host and well she's
(03:28):
got other qualities which I will not delve intoI'll let her talk about in her introduction
but it does encourage me to know that even thoughwe do podcasting, which is the same medium,
we do it very differently, but at the same time,there are similarities, which sounds very confusing,
but it's a bit like humans were different, butwe're the same. We're not too dissimilar. And
(03:50):
I take so much away from what she does. I lovehow she presents herself. I love how she's
catering for a demographic that may not knowthey need to be catered for. and giving hope
to those that are trying to break out of whereverthey are in their life, their career and want
to step into another realm but don't know whatthat looks like but she's facilitating that
(04:11):
by speaking to all these guests, all these differentleaders and just showing them this is what
it looks like. Yes they might have this fancytitle, yes they might be in this sphere but
they probably wear jeans and a t-shirt likeyou and I do and this is what they sound like
and this is what they want to share. And yes,they have their own insecurity. They have to
battle through like the rest of us, but theystill show up, which is important. And whatever
(04:34):
else they wanna share, which is gems, and thatis invaluable. I thank her for it. I absolutely
love what she does. I love what she's about.And so, so grateful for her taking the time
to come and jump on the podcast today. But withoutgoing on too long and making her head get so
big, she can't leave her office. Annie, howare you doing today? Well, thank you, Matt.
(04:54):
Thank you very much for that lovely introductionand in particular for mentioning about the
checking in, because that's what you have donewith me when we were first introduced to each
other by one of your podcast guests, who's alsoone of my podcast guests called Karen Dobres.
And I listened to your talking with her andalthough I've known her for many years, there
(05:20):
were things that I didn't know and she's a areally inspiring woman, an equity advisor and
who I met through when our children were attendingthe same school. What I've loved is how you
have checked in with me regularly. You firstasked me to be a guest on your show just around
(05:44):
the time when my mother had died and I wasn'tready to talk. privately or publicly about
the loss that I felt when she died. So I amready now. I needed that time. But what I've
really loved is the way you have hung aroundme and checked in with me. We've messaged each
(06:08):
other on Instagram. And I want to also congratulateyou on your award for your podcast, which is
truly well deserved. Well, unfortunately, it'sjust a nomination, but I'll take it. I'll take
it. I count a nomination as an award. And, youknow, it is a nomination and that in and of
(06:29):
itself is an award. You're listed there, Matt,and well deserved. Much appreciated. Recognition
for your podcast for giving people the opportunityto speak about loss. My full name is Annie
Townend. There will be people who've heard me.speak about this before, I haven't always been
(06:51):
called Annie, but I have always been calledTownend. And often when I'm meeting a team
and or a group for the first time, whether that'sonline or in the room, and I want to hear a
little bit about everybody in the room, I willinvite them to say something about who they
(07:11):
are through their name, which is a really brilliantway. of people sharing just a snippet of their
story. And so a snippet of my story is thatuntil my mother died, she was really the last
person who still called me by the name I wasgiven, the first name that I was given when
(07:35):
I was born. So she and my dad called me Anne.And I spent my life up until I was 18 years
old. telling people that my name was spelledAnne with an E. I changed my name officially
when I was 18 and that came about and perhapsit will be reflected in some of what I share
(08:03):
today around losing myself and finding myself.And when I found myself, I, or began the journey
at that time, I... felt myself to be an Annieand that's Annie with an I, no E. So it was
(08:23):
only when I was introducing myself to a teama few months ago that I thought, oh my, I spent
my first 18 years saying I'm Anne with an Eand I've spent the rest of my life saying I'm
Annie, that's no E. But I think that's relevantand a few... Probably a couple of years ago,
(08:46):
I was described by an HR director to their chiefexec as experienced and edgy. And I think that
I am, I am very experienced. And I think I dobring a bit of edge. And from permaculture
(09:06):
and from the gardening world, which is importantto me, although I would never describe myself
as a gardener. Being outside in nature is very,very important to me. And in permaculture,
there is a phrase which is about growth happensat the edges. And I think many of my lessons
(09:29):
from loss and my learnings, which are ongoing,have come at the edge. of X, you know, when
I've been at the edge. So I will talk aboutthat too. I like that. Roll with that edge.
That, that wow. Okay. I'll have to marinateon that a little bit. That was wow. Marinate
(09:51):
on it. Yeah, definitely do. Because when younext go for a walk and you look at pavements
at the edges in outside wherever. and oftenat the edges of in rooms, that's where there
is biodiversity, that's where lots of differentthings are going on and there's lots of growth.
(10:17):
And I think when I apply that to lessons fromloss and indeed in leadership and living and
leading our lives, for me, it has been a processof making sense. making sense of my losses
and with that has come, you know, greater, Ihope, wisdom, but also a greater sense of knowing
(10:45):
who I am and my losses and the learnings fromthem being part of who I am. Something that
I learned a few months ago from a webinar thatI was invited to co-lead with a colleague.
and I was asked to describe myself and I didn'tdescribe myself through my name. What I did
(11:07):
was asked to do was to describe myself in physicalterms so that those people who weren't able
to see would be able to have a sense of whoI was. So I thought I would do that as well
and let your listeners know that I live in theUK. and I've mentioned the garden already.
(11:31):
I am in my shed in the garden in East Sussex.I'm in my summer house, that helps. That's
great. Where is your garden, Matt? Where isyour summer house? In Essex. In Essex. Brilliant.
I didn't know where you were based, so now Ido, which is great. I'm a white woman, I have
(11:52):
grey hair and I am wearing a pale grey t-shirt.What I do, you've already alluded to the fact
that I work with leaders and my podcast Leadersin Conversation with Annie Town and it's an
opportunity for leaders to share their storiesand I partner with leaders and their teams,
(12:15):
helping them to create a safe environment inwhich people can have conversations that matter
and to do that with curiosity, care. and courageand you could put in love there so curiosity,
love and courage. I'm talking about the kindof human to human felt experience of really
(12:43):
caring about each other which is really importantto me as is helping leaders to find ways of
creating safe environments and that will become.clearer, I think, in what I'm going to share
with you about the lessons I've learned fromloss. One of the biggest lessons that I've
(13:06):
learned about noticing loss came from one ofmy trainings that I went on many years ago.
And the training itself was not especially engaging.And we were all sitting in rows and we were
taking notes and it was a slide led lectureand when the facilitator lecturer opened up
(13:31):
for questions there was somebody in the audiencewho asked the question this is all well and
good and sounds great it was about facilitatingand leading groups and team dynamics but what
do you do when you have a really difficult personin a group? And there was a general sort of
(13:54):
laughter and of recognition that sometimes thereare people like that. And the lecturer and
facilitator paused, quite a long pause, andsaid, there's no such thing as a difficult
person. There are only people struggling withloss. And that... really resonated with me,
(14:22):
Matt, because I thought when I'm strugglingwith loss, I can be difficult. I find myself
difficult, it has been difficult. And it's helpedme to really listen with curiosity, care and
courage to people when perhaps they've beenawkward. difficult, maybe they would have been
(14:50):
described as difficult. And I've always heldthis in mind, that there's a lot more going
on than I could ever possibly know. And it helpsme to bring that love, care and compassion
in the moment and appreciate that they haveshown up, that they are there, despite all
(15:13):
that might be. going on in their lives thatthey may or may not yet, like myself, have
been able to talk about. And I'm very fortunatethat I have had over the years huge support,
which has helped me in making sense of my lossesand to learn from them. And not everybody has
(15:33):
that. And I hope that people listening today,but also listening to your other wonderful
guests will feel reassured. by that as well,that they can get support from listening to
other people's stories. I certainly have. Amazing.When you mentioned about difficult people,
(15:55):
I was thinking, right, if I was in that situation,one of my answers would have been someone could
consider you as a difficult person because you're,you know, you're disrupting the flow of the
presentation. But if you were offered the question,that's fine. But when it starts getting, when
everyone else start getting on board, you feellike, hang on, calm down people. let's get
back on track but I feel like as well peopleare going for a loss and it could be a lot
(16:20):
of understanding because they were followingit up until a certain point and then frustration
came in they're like I don't know what I'm talkingabout what's going on I don't know what you're
talking about I don't know what I'm talkingabout it isn't even the right job for me anymore
I feel at a loss but it could also mean thatthe person is in a different place to where
you are and you have to meet them where they'reat and being a good leader should be able to
(16:41):
identify that and say, right, those that cancontinue going on the path that I've set for
you, keep going. I'm gonna go and get this personand it's not gonna stand over them, towering
over them like some parents do to a child andtell them off like, what are you doing? It's
sort of like, bend down, hey, how you doing?You all right? How can I support you and try
and get them on side. And where you said aboutloss, and I'm not sure, are you familiar with
(17:05):
the change curve by any chance? I am. So thechange curve, and the grief curve very similar
because in my experience you've got to adaptand accept your new reality or whatever the
new process may be and because you have to acceptsomething new it means you've lost what you
(17:26):
already knew and as a creature of habit it'skind of hard to accept that because I say I
wake up in the morning this time I go here atthat time I do XYZ I check out by that time
I'm going home but all of a sudden there's roadworksor there's a new manager or there's a new process,
which you can't understand why there's a newprocess that almost working sound, but this
(17:46):
is new and efficient. May it's taking me atleast 20 minutes extra to learn how to do it
or whatever the case is, but your head is struggling,you're going through that. And for those that
are listening, don't know what the change curveis, the change curve is a sort of rollercoaster
that you go through when new information ornew situations presented to yourself. So in
first instance, you go through shock. Then yougo through denial, then frustration, depression,
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which is the lowest point of this roller coaster.Then you go into experiment because you're
kind of dipping your toe into it. Then you'refaced with decision, whether you're gonna continue
or you're gonna go back to not wanting to pursuethis further. And then you've got integration,
which is where you get in line with everything.And if you think of integration as you're approaching
(18:33):
the motorway and you're merging into the maintraffic. and that point you've got to maintain
speed and if you can't maintain speed it's notgoing to be a fun journey for you. But I don't
know, would you, after me saying that, can yousee the connection between the two or am I
just going off on a whim here? I think the changecurve and the grief curve are really helpful
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lenses to think about the experience of losingsomething, someone, of change, of loss, of
grief. and certainly have helped me along myway to make sense of loss and grief. And where
I've come to now Matt is very much that everyone'sexperience of loss is different and that the
(19:20):
change curve, the grief curve, which is describedbeautifully by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in her
book for anybody interested. is helpful as isappreciating that each person's own experience
of loss is very different. And what I wantedto talk about with you was the loss of confidence,
(19:51):
of losing confidence and finding it and resiliencethrough my own experience. Because these are
two things that have been woven closely togetherthroughout my life. And I thought it would
be helpful to talk about losing confidence,losing a sense of self and self-belief. And
(20:14):
what has helped me, and one of the things thatalong my way has helped me to make sense of
some of the experiences that I've had indeedwas discovering that somebody had thought about
this curve. and it helped me to make sense ofit mentally, whilst probably in my heart still
(20:39):
having a way to go. And I love your metaphorof needing to be able to travel at speed to
get on the motorway. And if you're not ready,don't get on it. You know, you might need a
little bit longer in the lay-by and or in oneof the side roads. And it's that. meandering
in the side road, stopping in a lay-by and feelinga bit lost with grief that I think is very
(21:08):
personal to everybody. Definitely, I agree withthat. A nice metaphor Matt, I must say, you
know, when you're not quite ready, like whenyou first asked me to come and speak about
loss, I was right in it, there was no way Iwas ready to... jump in the car with you and
(21:28):
head on to the motorway. I wasn't even yet sureI was in the right lay by, let alone the road.
And that's the thing, I think it's importantto have conversation because I think at that
point, I don't think at the point I knew yourmum had passed. You didn't. I think it was
just a conversation and later when you let meknow, and that was where it's like, that's
(21:51):
fine. No harm, no foul. It is what it is. AndI think it's important that we talk but it's
hard and I think Yeah, it's important to onelet me go back with the change curve and the
grief curve all those things I mentioned toyou in it They don't necessarily go in that
order. It's just as helpful. Yes a helpful guideBut also it's just letting people know that
(22:11):
when you're going through something like thatI'll be there and support wherever I can the
reason why I guess I can use a lot of metaphorsbecause I'm very open and try to express my
emotions the best way possible. I feel whatI feel so that when I talk to other people
about what they're going through, I can hopefullyhave a better connection with them and hopefully
articulate what they're trying to just becauseI experience it, I sit in the moment. I don't
(22:36):
get it wrong, for those around me, at timesit's not the most nice because I'm in a bit
of a mood, but it's because I'm feeling whatI am feeling. So when I have conversations
like this or speaking to others, I'm able toarticulate what maybe they struggle to because
they're not allowed to feel what they're feelingbecause their schedule is so hectic, they cannot
afford to. And as we're, as we're talking, weknow there's a cost of living crisis going
(22:58):
on in the UK and probably across the world.So everyone's all about, I need to get paid.
Cause if I don't get paid, that's going to bemore stress. Which is going to be more detrimental
to my health, not much my mental health, myphysical and everything else. And this is where
I think it's important that we do talk to theright people. Cause some people just want gossip.
We don't want those people, but talk to theright people so they can offer you the right
(23:19):
support. and sometimes that support is justknowing that they're there if and when you
need them, whether it's to ramble, whether it'sjust to keep you feeling like they acknowledge
you as an individual, like you said, you lostyour confidence and identity and stuff like
that. Sometimes when you are lost in a momentlike that, and I'm, you know, please correct
(23:40):
me if I'm wrong, when you're in a new environment,a new situation, you can lose who you are because
you're not willing to
that confidence. Some people will not know whoyou are, but those that know who you are will
continue to be there with you, sit with youand be saying, when you're ready to drive,
(24:02):
we'll drive. When you're ready to merge, we'llmerge, but not a moment too soon. I love that
Matt and something you said really resonateswith me about meeting people where they are
at. And I think I'd like to talk about whereI lost my confidence, my self-belief and how
(24:22):
I found it again. And it certainly finding itwas through being met where I was at. And I
think earlier on in our conversation, you mentionedthe kind of parents who were like my parents,
very disciplinarian, particularly my father.So there was a lot of telling me what to do,
(24:45):
telling me who I was. and that contributed tomy not really knowing who I was. And somebody
once spoke to me about how they felt as if theyhad been bent out of shape by some of their
experiences. And I remember thinking that'skind of what happened to me when I was a child.
(25:10):
I was bent out of shape. In other words, I wasbent out of my own shape. And it took me quite
a long time to find my confidence, my self-belief,and to bend back into my self, into my own
shape, my true shape. And that came throughsearching for meaning and purpose, which I
(25:33):
had also lost. My parents, when I look back,they're both dead now, very much wanted to
give me and my sister opportunities that theydidn't have and for them that was education.
They wanted us to have a good education andwhat mattered to them is that we did well.
(25:57):
And I was very happy at my first school, myprimary school, I remember it. I used to walk
to school with my mum, my sister and I madetwo very special friends there called Suzanne
and Timothy. who, when my parents decided tohave me move schools, to go to a different
(26:19):
school, I lost contact with completely. Andinstead of walking to school with my mum and
my friends, my father drove me to school inanother town, the town in which he worked.
And he was a very hard worker. They were bothhard workers. And at the time in the early
(26:41):
60s, having children as they had me and my sister.My mum stopped working as a teacher and became
a full-time housewife and looking back on thatshe also worked very hard in the house, in
(27:01):
the home, in looking after us as he did throughhis work. But they had very, very distinct
roles but what they shared. was this ambitionfor both me and my sister to do well and to
go to a good school. And I think our primaryschool was a good school, but they decided,
(27:24):
as I say, to move us to another school in abigger town. And that's where my father drove
me every day and my mum would pick me up. Sometimesafter school, we would go and play on the Moors
with my mum and grandma. I lived, I was broughtup in Yorkshire, for those listeners who know,
(27:48):
I was born and brought up in West Yorkshire,near Halifax, and I'm a very proud Yorkshire
lass, as they would say. When I was 10 yearsold, my parents decided that it was time for
me to move schools again, naturally, as in...junior school was finished and they decided
(28:12):
to send me to boarding school in a completelydifferent town far away from home, not in the
country and a long way from everything thatI knew from family, from friends, from the
landscape that I knew. So it was my next bigexperience of loss. So my first experience
(28:41):
of loss was the change of school, losing twoclose friends who I remember to this day and
going to a school again where I didn't knowpeople. When I arrived at the boarding school
I felt very, very different. I felt very lostand one of the things that I consciously chose
(29:06):
to do was to lose my accent. So not that I hada really broad Yorkshire accent and those listeners
who are from Yorkshire will have already detectedmy accent but when I arrived at boarding school
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the first thing that I noticed was that I didn'tspeak like others and I didn't have the same
shared experiences of them either. Many of themhad come from families where family members
had already been to boarding school. Nobodyin my family had ever, ever been to boarding
(29:51):
school. And so it was a very alien experience,not only for me, but also for my parents who'd
made the decision. I think when I look backon it, I I understand why they made the decision,
but I was very, very unhappy. And I spent fivereally difficult years being quite difficult,
(30:16):
being one of those difficult people. It wasdifficult. And I think I was difficult when
I look back. What my parents were committedto was this good education. However, after
five years of being there, I was given the choice.to come back home and to live back in West
(30:39):
Yorkshire with them, which is what I did andI went to the local comprehensive school. So
I rarely talk about having been sent away toboarding school, but it has had a huge impact
on my life of feeling lost and of losing myselfduring that time. and those years were very
(31:07):
formative and very significant in who I've becomereally. I don't think I did feel safe, it didn't
feel like a particularly safe environment, butthat was because it was unknown, unfamiliar,
it was a city environment, not a country location,
(31:34):
happiest in the countryside. I love being outside.I love walking. My happiest times with my family
as a child were those at the weekend when weeither walked together and or when I some I
often walked on my own. I loved walking andstill do. that is a lot of change to go through
(31:56):
at such a young age and young impressionableage. Did you react negatively or out of character?
I say it with quotation marks out of character,because you know, you don't know what your
character is necessarily if like you said before,what your parents would tell you was, versus
what you was, was never aligned at that point.So did you react in a negative way or out of
(32:19):
character? To all those changes? The answeris I don't know much. I didn't know any different
really. And it was only, I remember visitinga friend from boarding school while I was still
at that school and going to stay with her andher parents. And that was one of the first
(32:45):
times that I realised other families were notas strict and disciplinarian. and didn't have
the same rules as our family. So my parentshad very strict rules which they themselves
probably lived by, but certainly I felt I hadto do as I was told and not ask. I've always
(33:12):
been naturally curious and this serves me wellin my life and leadership, but. probably as
a child it didn't always serve me well and itgot me into trouble. So I was myself but I
was definitely bent out of shape and when Icame back home to live with my parents it was
(33:39):
difficult for them and for me because I'd hadfive years of being away. and only being at
home during holidays, which had not been easyreally. We'd had fun times, but they were also
quite difficult fitting back in and not feelinglike I did. Remember that I'd changed to a
(34:02):
certain extent the way I spoke. So then my friendsat the local church where my parents attended,
they thought I was posh. And then when I wentback to school, I had to remember to speak
like I spoke when I was at school. So I feltthis sense of not fitting in either at home
(34:31):
or at school.
And that did change when I went to the comprehensiveschool, walked to school again, but it wasn't
(34:54):
an easy time. By then I was 16 years old. Myparents weren't used to having me there all
the time. They used to having their own livesseparately because by then my sister was also
at boarding school. So I don't think it waseasy for them and it certainly wasn't easy
for me. And there's a lovely quote from BrenéBrown. She asked the question, what's the opposite
(35:21):
of fitting in? And the answer she gives is...Standing out? Belonging. Oh, I like that. I
like that too. So I mentioned that because that'sa really important part of what I think I had
lost was a sense of belonging. And somethingyou said earlier, a feeling of being... well
(35:47):
met and of being met where I was at. I don'tthink I felt that in my teenage years and that's
what I lost was a sense of who I am and of belongingwhich I set about finding. Really insightful.
(36:08):
So do you think the fact that you had to effectively,and there's a term called cold switching where
you talk one way with one group of people, thenyou switch it up for another group of people.
Do you think that had a negative impact on yougetting closer to your identity sooner rather
than later? Possibly, Matt. I think that theimportance of being well-met, of difference
(36:34):
and of belonging were things that I became acutelyaware of. I don't think I... knew that I was,
that I had lost my confidence and resiliencein who I was, because I don't know that I knew
(36:54):
I'd ever found it. It was only when I left thecomprehensive school where I hadn't done very
well and I didn't get into university to dowhat I wanted to do. which was art and English,
a combined degree. And it was through my fatherwho at the time read a magazine called Private
(37:22):
Eye and he spotted, I think he was quite desperatethat I was going to be living at home for an
extended period and keen for me to go somewhere,anywhere. And I was very fortunate. I got in
on BA Honours degree in Communication Studiesat what was then Sheffield Polytechnic. And
(37:48):
those three years were years I look back onof realising I was a bit lost because the course
had attracted people of all ages from very differentbackgrounds. It was a very multi-modular course
and quite revolutionary for its time. and itwas other people's comments, feedback to me
(38:16):
that I think made me realise that I was a bitdirectionless. I was, you know, in, I didn't
really know why I was doing the degree. I foundit interesting. I rarely spoke in seminar groups,
hardly ever if at all, and that was partly becauseof my upbringing and feeling that it was better
(38:42):
to be quiet rather than to ask questions. SoI definitely internalized some of the messages
that I had received and I was not speaking out.And that's probably why there's a quote, another
quote I really love, Matt, which has just cometo me in this moment. It's a Vanessa Redgrave.
(39:07):
which she gave when she was awarded somethingfor her service to acting and the whole industry.
And she said, find your truth and your voicewill follow. I can get behind that. It's so
good that and that's what I hadn't found. Iwas lost. I had been brought up as a Christian
(39:34):
and I had lost that faith. which had, you know,I'd really questioned it and lost it. So by
the time I was studying for communication studies,I had lost quite a lot and hadn't really yet
found my truth. And now when I look back, Ithink I had, that's why I had lost my voice.
(40:00):
And then I had an extremely
which was to change me and I describe it asI woke up to myself and I hadn't in that experience
(40:22):
really listened to myself. I didn't trust myself,I didn't trust my instincts, I didn't trust
my intuition and I had to... get myself outof a really difficult situation, which I did.
And afterwards, I knew I needed help. And thehelp came in various forms. And one of those
(40:52):
forms was from an older,
weekend workshop, it's kind of therapy, it'sa group therapy workshop. And I had, through
(41:14):
my studying psychology, heard of therapy, obviously,but I had no experience of group therapy, of
being in a group which was a therapeutic group.And I said yes, because that felt like the
right thing to do. And not unlike going to anew school, meeting new people, I knew nobody
(41:40):
there. It was completely alien to me. Everybodywas sitting in a circle on cushions on the
floor and it was like nothing I'd ever known.However, I felt well met. I felt seen, I felt
heard, and I felt understood. The facilitatorand everybody was the... that was there and
(42:04):
part of that group had me feel a sense of belongingand that I could be myself. And I began to
find my truth and my voice. And also, I discoveredmy metier, Matt. I realised, I witnessed this
(42:25):
facilitator, I described them, his name wasJohn Heron, as a elegant. facilitator. He,
with everybody that was there, created thisvery safe environment in which we did the work
we had come to do, whatever that was, and inthe way that we did it. And I thought one day
(42:50):
that's what I want to do. I have found whatI wanted to do. So it was like a door opening,
and not unlike when you think of a if I thinkusing a metaphor that perhaps will resonate,
it was like having a house and not having open,knowing that the rooms were there, but never
(43:15):
having opened the doors, perhaps through fearof what might be in there. And for me, this
weekend workshop helped me to start openingthese doors that for whatever reason I had
closed. And... to build the foundations of whoI have become. And it was at that time that
(43:42):
I changed my name from Anne to Annie. So it'slike you found your identity and you put it
out there by saying, please don't address meas this, because this is who I am and I feel
empowered by that. Yeah, it was an internalthing. And then... In the day when people sent
(44:02):
postcards to each other, I was working, helpset up and was working in a whole food. When
I finished my degree, I had no idea still whatI wanted to do. I'd found my metier around
the time I'd finished my degree, but I had noidea really how to realise it. However, at
(44:27):
the same time, I... chose to study child psychologypart time and to help set up a whole food cooperative
which had a huge big ambition which was aroundrecycling, people brought their own bags and
jars in, we made sure people knew where thefood was sourced from and we were able to engage
(44:56):
in the local community. visited, shopped andsupported what was called Down to Earth in
Sheffield. A time I'm really proud of and wepioneered flexible working, job rotation and
because of that I was able to study child psychologybut only for a short while because it was while
(45:19):
I was studying and being supervised that myvery wise supervisor suggested that maybe child
psychology was not for me. And the reason thatI was studying it was that I needed to do a
bit of digging in my own childhood and suggestedto me that I got some one-to-one therapy, which
(45:44):
is what I did. And at the same time, I alsoknew that I wanted to believe in the power
of groups and working with groups. that begana whole journey of exploring humanistic psychology,
of studying and practicing as a group therapistand ultimately led me to do a Masters in Management
(46:10):
Learning. And is that what led you into thejob role you're doing now, which is in leadership?
Yeah, very much so. So I did the Masters whenI was in my early 30s. and by then I was living
near Lancaster University. I studied in Lancasterand I lived on the Moors. I was part of a community,
(46:37):
had a sense of belonging and myself ran workshopsand realised that what I wanted to do was to
work with people in the business world, in thecorporate world and across sectors. So that's
Yeah, that's how I came to do that. And wouldit be the case that the reason why you're connected
(47:02):
to do it and you're so passionate about it isbecause in some way, you're trying to stop
people feeling the loss that you felt kind ofjust drifting through life, or your career
and saying, you may not have found your identity.But here's some other people that look like
they've got it together for your conversations.Here, listen to them. Let me help you and you're
(47:27):
tapping into your past experiences and helpingreframe it in a way that is positive to say,
you may feel like this, this and this, fine,use that energy and it can become this with
the right sense of direction. That can helpyou the direction by however you present that
information. I'm taking a stab in the dark here,tell me if I'm right or wrong. Well as you
(47:51):
take that stab in the dark. It reminds me thatI... There is some, there was something that
I have, the way I've described the journey is,makes it sound quite linear, that I discovered
humanistic psychology, all the different practices,that I had one-to-one therapy, which helped
(48:20):
me to be present to myself, to find my truth,and that I was. living in the country, leading
and running workshops and doing some trainingas well for others. And what I haven't shared
yet, Matt, which I think is important, is thatthen I had the first of three ectopic pregnancies,
(48:48):
which was a huge loss and shock. So there Iwas having found my truth and found my purpose
and with my partner became pregnant, was happy,delighted, felt really confident in my body
(49:11):
and my work in myself and was doing work withwomen only groups on you know our body ourselves
was a book that informed my practice. I wasvery involved in a number of different communities
and then this thing happened. And it was a tremendousloss on a par, but very different from the
(49:39):
sense of loss of identity I had felt in my lateteens when I had the really traumatic experience.
And clearly having an ectopic pregnancy at threemonths was very traumatic. and was also life-threatening
thanks to the NHS I survived and I was verychanged by it and I think when I mentioned
(50:09):
around confidence and resilience earlier ittook me quite a long time to I was once again
very bent out of shape having found myself Ilost myself again through this loss. which
was huge and I wasn't even sure after that firstectopic pregnancy that I would be able to bend
(50:36):
back into shape again.
So when you said, did that lead you to the workyou did, the kind of the masters? Actually,
(51:03):
it was the loss of hope and possibility thatI experienced in the first and then the second
ectopic pregnancy that had me lose confidenceagain in myself and what I was doing. and had
me re-evaluate everything and had me, as itturned out, think about what else I could do
(51:32):
and where I would like to work. And that's whatdrew me to do the masters, to study, to learn,
because at that moment I thought it might notbe possible for me to have children. And I...
thought very purposefully about where I wantedto grow my work and where I wanted to do it.
(51:58):
In fact, I am a mum, I have two beautiful grown-updaughters who I'm proud of every day and I'm
very fortunate and again very grateful for thehelp that I got along the way. I treasure them
every day dearly. That is so beautiful and Wow,I feel like I need a part two just for that
(52:22):
in itself. Gosh, look at you just dropping thesemassive, massive gems. I'm very conscious of
time, so I'll ask you a couple questions. Oneof them would be. What would you say to your
younger self at your lowest point during whatyou've just described? What would you say to
(52:44):
your younger self to help you push through andnot give in, stop putting that foot in front
of the other? What would you tell yourself sothat you could hear the message of encouragement
that will get you through that darkest days?I love you. I'm proud of you. You'll be alright.
(53:10):
Do you think you'd hear that? I think I wouldtuck it away and I would know it and reach
for it and eventually believe it. And wouldthat be in your teens? Would that be when you're
in your early 30s or during the pregnancies?Throughout life actually, Matt. I think I reach
(53:40):
into that. I think it's what I would have lovedto hear more of as a child. I certainly did
hear it from my parents when... my relationshipwith them grew and grew and about 10-12 years
(54:02):
ago, they moved to live close to me and duringknowing that they would be living their last
years close to me that I had a role to playin loving them caring for them and ensuring
that they felt some of the things that perhapswe hadn't felt when I was growing up, I wanted
(54:31):
them to feel as they were growing old. And sofinding that love, particularly in our relationship
towards the end of their lives, not that ithadn't been there before, but really feeling
it and hearing. both of them say those thingsto me. I can remember having a doorstep conversation
(54:58):
with somebody who is a writer and sharing somethingsimilar about what we would have loved to have
heard as children more. So maybe we did hearit, but we didn't take it into your point.
Things got in the way. I remember sharing withher what I would have loved to hear more of,
(55:25):
but that I did hear now was that I was loved,that they were proud of me and that they believed
in me. And I do think in terms of losing confidenceand resilience, not only self-belief matters,
but the belief of others, particularly at thoselow points, you know, those low points, it's
(55:46):
the sometimes at the edge. at those low points,it's the belief of others that has in me, that
has helped me to find my feet again, friends,family, and also being in nature has helped
me to, you know, to find the confidence I'dlost, to rebuild my resilience, to knit myself
(56:13):
together again, with their help. And I reallyhave experienced that and feel especially privileged
and humbled to have been with my sister whenmy when our mother died. She was one side of
(56:34):
her. I was the other side of her. And I neverreally understood the phrase passing away.
But it really did feel like our beloved mum.passed away. And I think for both of us, it
made us wish that we had been able to be therewith my father when he died. Both my parents
(56:58):
died where they wanted to be, which is great.And both were, as we were, greatly supported
by others in their end of lives and in theirdying. If I could stretch through here and
give you a big old cuddle, I really would. Thatwas... Matt Welly, I would give you one back.
(57:24):
Oh, that definitely hit me. That was beautiful.And yeah, they did a great job in raising you.
All the hard work, all the seeds they pouredinto you, they watered it. They dug deep to
make sure that they was really, really buriedinto your being, who you are. The massive impact
(57:44):
you're having. Thank you. thankfully with thehelp of technology, the masses you're helping,
they probably never knew. They hoped that you'ddo great things, but they probably never knew
you're gonna achieve the greatness that youhave and will continue to hit. So. Well, Matt,
I have to interrupt you there. Because my dadused to say, when are you going to get a proper
(58:08):
job? because I definitely didn't do what theyexpected and or wanted me to do and certainly
not what they had imagined for me and I thinkas I was growing up I didn't I really do recognize
that they did the best with what they had gotand wanted the best for me I think I have parented
(58:33):
very differently and but of loving and caringand being there in a way that I didn't always
feel that they were for me but that we wereable to find within each other and for each
(58:55):
other certainly in our lives. Well the way Isee it is that with my wife, with my kids,
if I could say to God this is what I want, Iwant this, are you sure? Yeah, I want that.
I would have got such a lesser version, lesserquality of life than the one that's provided
(59:17):
to me. So as much as they may not have understoodwhat you did or may not have appreciated the
weight of what you carry, you smashed everyexpectations. And I know that for a fact. And
I'm so grateful for you. And I know that becauseof what they poured into you, that's coming
(59:38):
out. whether it be right or wrong, it's stillpouring up. Absolutely. Because what you didn't
necessarily agree with, you're then changingit in a different way. Agreed. If you agreed
with it, you perpetuate it. So, love that foryou and so grateful for this conversation.
Thank you, Matt. Thank you for having me onthis conversation and being such a great podcaster.
(01:00:01):
I try. Just trying to emulate you, that's all.So, if I could ask you for the next two minutes
to share. where you're at, what you're doing,how people can get in contact with you because
I'm sure people will be like I want a part two,can you just fill in some of these blanks for
me. So the floor is yours young lady. Thankyou, well I'd love a part two with you Matt
(01:00:24):
and of course you're going to be a guest onmy podcast so for listeners who would like
to tune in and listen to guests I've alreadybeen in conversation with do check out Leaders
in Conversation with Annie Townend. The otherplace to find me is my website, Annie Townend,
that's Annie without an E and Townend withoutan S, annietownend.com and or you can email
(01:00:53):
me directly at annietownend.com and I look forwardto interacting with you to any of your listeners.
I wish you well in your journey of making senseof loss, of living your life and your leadership
(01:01:14):
and I truly look forward to connecting withyou. That was beautiful. Folks, you know how
it is, I am just gobsmacked to have conversationswith people like this and I guess for people
that don't know much about Annie, without Annie,it's the fact that she just... her consistency,
(01:01:36):
like even a branding, her website matches herpodcasts. All of that is the consistency is
real. She in an episode she thanks the editor.I should thank myself for editing. Thank you
future Matt for editing this podcast. You dida great job. You know, she always giving flowers
out and that is just so beautiful because Ithink not a lot of us do it. We always went
(01:01:57):
into the person's path and we give them flowersin their tomb song, which is no good to them
at that point. She gives them their flowers.She's such a strong individual and that phrase
says you never make your strong person withan easy pass and this even though it was a
Tip the smallest tip of the iceberg kind ofgave you an insight into what she's had to
overcome what she's had to navigate and It'smade her the version of herself that she is
(01:02:22):
today and the beautiful thing about it Is shestill growing evolving and willing to learn
and change and adapt? accordingly She didn'tgive up when she had those pregnancies that
didn't come to fruition, unfortunately. Butthen here she is with what she has. She may
not have had the best relationship with herfamily, but she still pushed on and thankfully,
it became something beautiful still. There'sa lot of things that she's had to overcome.
(01:02:46):
She took a course that thankfully, the lecturersaid to her, mmm, this ain't for you. And sometimes
you need to have those honest conversationswhich may not sound nice at the time. but the
long term results are right for the individual.And I think if nothing else, folks, just take
the honesty. And if you have to re-listen toit, so be it. But I think there's so much value
(01:03:09):
in what's been communicated today. And I can'tthank Annie enough for sharing. Hopefully she
will come up for part two. But as you guys allknow, I'm a big fan of saying to you that your
right now is not your forever. So please notdwelling it for too long, longer than you need
to. And there's nothing about a caterpillar.take is going to be a butterfly. Any stories
(01:03:30):
tell you that in abundance. So look after yourselfand I look forward to seeing you in the next
episode.
with my partner, became pregnant, was happy,delighted, felt really confident in my body
and my work in myself and was doing work withwomen-only groups on, you know, our body, ourselves
(00:21):
was a book that informed my practice. I wasvery involved in a number of different communities
and then this thing happened and it was a tremendousloss on a par but very different from the sense
of loss of identity I had felt in my late teenswhen I had the really traumatic experience
(00:47):
and clearly having an ectopic pregnancy at threemonths was very traumatic. and was also life
threatening.
(01:08):
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I'm your hostMatt Brown and you're listening to the EveryL
Podcast. Each episode we'll have a differentguest come on and talk about when life hangs
you an L, is it really a loss or is it somethingelse? Because not every L's a loss. So sit
back, relax or do what I let you guys do toget comfortable as we get into this. Let's
(01:32):
go.
Welcome everybody to another episode of EveryL Podcast. Where we have different guests come
on and share their experiences that they'vegone through in life. If you don't understand
the concept of what an L is, an L, if you lookat it in binary terms in life, you're either
(01:53):
gonna win or you're gonna lose. You might stackthings up in a certain way. You've done all
the prep work, all the ground work, and theday comes, the occasion comes, and you just
flop. It just doesn't deliver like you wantit to. And that feels like a major L that you're
holding. And at that point, you might want theEarth to open up and swallow you in, or just
to curl up on a ball and not see the world forthe rest of the year. Whatever it is, it's
(02:17):
not a good feeling. But it doesn't necessarilymean that L that you've caught at that moment
will always be a L later on in life when youlook back. And that's what we're gonna talk
about with these various lovely guests thatI have on. And I'm so grateful for each and
every one of them for taking the time out toshare these stories and to be as open and honest
and to help other people feel less alone. Nowas I say as always, it's very cliche but it's
(02:40):
so accurate, I have another fantastic guess.This individual I've known for about a year
now or something like that. But you know whenyou have such good time speaking and getting
to know someone over a period of time that youdon't really put a time scale to it, you're
just like, good vibes, good people, checkingon them, see what they're doing. And secretly,
part of the reason why you hang around themas much as you do is because you're inspired
(03:03):
by them, how they conduct themselves, how they...perform the daily tasks they do and don't get
it wrong what you see on social media isn'tnecessarily reality and I'm very aware of that
however if they're consistently showing up andthe things they put out the standards they
maintain are things that you want to do as welloh hold on to them hang around them as much
as possible and this person is no exceptionto that she also a podcast host and well she's
(03:28):
got other qualities which I will not delve intoI'll let her talk about in her introduction
but it does encourage me to know that even thoughwe do podcasting, which is the same medium,
we do it very differently, but at the same time,there are similarities, which sounds very confusing,
but it's a bit like humans were different, butwe're the same. We're not too dissimilar. And
(03:50):
I take so much away from what she does. I lovehow she presents herself. I love how she's
catering for a demographic that may not knowthey need to be catered for. and giving hope
to those that are trying to break out of whereverthey are in their life, their career and want
to step into another realm but don't know whatthat looks like but she's facilitating that
(04:11):
by speaking to all these guests, all these differentleaders and just showing them this is what
it looks like. Yes they might have this fancytitle, yes they might be in this sphere but
they probably wear jeans and a t-shirt likeyou and I do and this is what they sound like
and this is what they want to share. And yes,they have their own insecurity. They have to
battle through like the rest of us, but theystill show up, which is important. And whatever
(04:34):
else they wanna share, which is gems, and thatis invaluable. I thank her for it. I absolutely
love what she does. I love what she's about.And so, so grateful for her taking the time
to come and jump on the podcast today. But withoutgoing on too long and making her head get so
big, she can't leave her office. Annie, howare you doing today? Well, thank you, Matt.
(04:54):
Thank you very much for that lovely introductionand in particular for mentioning about the
checking in, because that's what you have donewith me when we were first introduced to each
other by one of your podcast guests, who's alsoone of my podcast guests called Karen Dobres.
And I listened to your talking with her andalthough I've known her for many years, there
(05:20):
were things that I didn't know and she's a areally inspiring woman, an equity advisor and
who I met through when our children were attendingthe same school. What I've loved is how you
have checked in with me regularly. You firstasked me to be a guest on your show just around
(05:44):
the time when my mother had died and I wasn'tready to talk. privately or publicly about
the loss that I felt when she died. So I amready now. I needed that time. But what I've
really loved is the way you have hung aroundme and checked in with me. We've messaged each
(06:08):
other on Instagram. And I want to also congratulateyou on your award for your podcast, which is
truly well deserved. Well, unfortunately, it'sjust a nomination, but I'll take it. I'll take
it. I count a nomination as an award. And, youknow, it is a nomination and that in and of
(06:29):
itself is an award. You're listed there, Matt,and well deserved. Much appreciated. Recognition
for your podcast for giving people the opportunityto speak about loss. My full name is Annie
Townend. There will be people who've heard me.speak about this before, I haven't always been
(06:51):
called Annie, but I have always been calledTownend. And often when I'm meeting a team
and or a group for the first time, whether that'sonline or in the room, and I want to hear a
little bit about everybody in the room, I willinvite them to say something about who they
(07:11):
are through their name, which is a really brilliantway. of people sharing just a snippet of their
story. And so a snippet of my story is thatuntil my mother died, she was really the last
person who still called me by the name I wasgiven, the first name that I was given when
(07:35):
I was born. So she and my dad called me Anne.And I spent my life up until I was 18 years
old. telling people that my name was spelledAnne with an E. I changed my name officially
when I was 18 and that came about and perhapsit will be reflected in some of what I share
(08:03):
today around losing myself and finding myself.And when I found myself, I, or began the journey
at that time, I... felt myself to be an Annieand that's Annie with an I, no E. So it was
(08:23):
only when I was introducing myself to a teama few months ago that I thought, oh my, I spent
my first 18 years saying I'm Anne with an Eand I've spent the rest of my life saying I'm
Annie, that's no E. But I think that's relevantand a few... Probably a couple of years ago,
(08:46):
I was described by an HR director to their chiefexec as experienced and edgy. And I think that
I am, I am very experienced. And I think I dobring a bit of edge. And from permaculture
(09:06):
and from the gardening world, which is importantto me, although I would never describe myself
as a gardener. Being outside in nature is very,very important to me. And in permaculture,
there is a phrase which is about growth happensat the edges. And I think many of my lessons
(09:29):
from loss and my learnings, which are ongoing,have come at the edge. of X, you know, when
I've been at the edge. So I will talk aboutthat too. I like that. Roll with that edge.
That, that wow. Okay. I'll have to marinateon that a little bit. That was wow. Marinate
(09:51):
on it. Yeah, definitely do. Because when younext go for a walk and you look at pavements
at the edges in outside wherever. and oftenat the edges of in rooms, that's where there
is biodiversity, that's where lots of differentthings are going on and there's lots of growth.
(10:17):
And I think when I apply that to lessons fromloss and indeed in leadership and living and
leading our lives, for me, it has been a processof making sense. making sense of my losses
and with that has come, you know, greater, Ihope, wisdom, but also a greater sense of knowing
(10:45):
who I am and my losses and the learnings fromthem being part of who I am. Something that
I learned a few months ago from a webinar thatI was invited to co-lead with a colleague.
and I was asked to describe myself and I didn'tdescribe myself through my name. What I did
(11:07):
was asked to do was to describe myself in physicalterms so that those people who weren't able
to see would be able to have a sense of whoI was. So I thought I would do that as well
and let your listeners know that I live in theUK. and I've mentioned the garden already.
(11:31):
I am in my shed in the garden in East Sussex.I'm in my summer house, that helps. That's
great. Where is your garden, Matt? Where isyour summer house? In Essex. In Essex. Brilliant.
I didn't know where you were based, so now Ido, which is great. I'm a white woman, I have
(11:52):
grey hair and I am wearing a pale grey t-shirt.What I do, you've already alluded to the fact
that I work with leaders and my podcast Leadersin Conversation with Annie Town and it's an
opportunity for leaders to share their storiesand I partner with leaders and their teams,
(12:15):
helping them to create a safe environment inwhich people can have conversations that matter
and to do that with curiosity, care. and courageand you could put in love there so curiosity,
love and courage. I'm talking about the kindof human to human felt experience of really
(12:43):
caring about each other which is really importantto me as is helping leaders to find ways of
creating safe environments and that will become.clearer, I think, in what I'm going to share
with you about the lessons I've learned fromloss. One of the biggest lessons that I've
(13:06):
learned about noticing loss came from one ofmy trainings that I went on many years ago.
And the training itself was not especially engaging.And we were all sitting in rows and we were
taking notes and it was a slide led lectureand when the facilitator lecturer opened up
(13:31):
for questions there was somebody in the audiencewho asked the question this is all well and
good and sounds great it was about facilitatingand leading groups and team dynamics but what
do you do when you have a really difficult personin a group? And there was a general sort of
(13:54):
laughter and of recognition that sometimes thereare people like that. And the lecturer and
facilitator paused, quite a long pause, andsaid, there's no such thing as a difficult
person. There are only people struggling withloss. And that... really resonated with me,
(14:22):
Matt, because I thought when I'm strugglingwith loss, I can be difficult. I find myself
difficult, it has been difficult. And it's helpedme to really listen with curiosity, care and
courage to people when perhaps they've beenawkward. difficult, maybe they would have been
(14:50):
described as difficult. And I've always heldthis in mind, that there's a lot more going
on than I could ever possibly know. And it helpsme to bring that love, care and compassion
in the moment and appreciate that they haveshown up, that they are there, despite all
(15:13):
that might be. going on in their lives thatthey may or may not yet, like myself, have
been able to talk about. And I'm very fortunatethat I have had over the years huge support,
which has helped me in making sense of my lossesand to learn from them. And not everybody has
(15:33):
that. And I hope that people listening today,but also listening to your other wonderful
guests will feel reassured. by that as well,that they can get support from listening to
other people's stories. I certainly have. Amazing.When you mentioned about difficult people,
(15:55):
I was thinking, right, if I was in that situation,one of my answers would have been someone could
consider you as a difficult person because you're,you know, you're disrupting the flow of the
presentation. But if you were offered the question,that's fine. But when it starts getting, when
everyone else start getting on board, you feellike, hang on, calm down people. let's get
back on track but I feel like as well peopleare going for a loss and it could be a lot
(16:20):
of understanding because they were followingit up until a certain point and then frustration
came in they're like I don't know what I'm talkingabout what's going on I don't know what you're
talking about I don't know what I'm talkingabout it isn't even the right job for me anymore
I feel at a loss but it could also mean thatthe person is in a different place to where
you are and you have to meet them where they'reat and being a good leader should be able to
(16:41):
identify that and say, right, those that cancontinue going on the path that I've set for
you, keep going. I'm gonna go and get this personand it's not gonna stand over them, towering
over them like some parents do to a child andtell them off like, what are you doing? It's
sort of like, bend down, hey, how you doing?You all right? How can I support you and try
and get them on side. And where you said aboutloss, and I'm not sure, are you familiar with
(17:05):
the change curve by any chance? I am. So thechange curve, and the grief curve very similar
because in my experience you've got to adaptand accept your new reality or whatever the
new process may be and because you have to acceptsomething new it means you've lost what you
(17:26):
already knew and as a creature of habit it'skind of hard to accept that because I say I
wake up in the morning this time I go here atthat time I do XYZ I check out by that time
I'm going home but all of a sudden there's roadworksor there's a new manager or there's a new process,
which you can't understand why there's a newprocess that almost working sound, but this
(17:46):
is new and efficient. May it's taking me atleast 20 minutes extra to learn how to do it
or whatever the case is, but your head is struggling,you're going through that. And for those that
are listening, don't know what the change curveis, the change curve is a sort of rollercoaster
that you go through when new information ornew situations presented to yourself. So in
first instance, you go through shock. Then yougo through denial, then frustration, depression,
(18:13):
which is the lowest point of this roller coaster.Then you go into experiment because you're
kind of dipping your toe into it. Then you'refaced with decision, whether you're gonna continue
or you're gonna go back to not wanting to pursuethis further. And then you've got integration,
which is where you get in line with everything.And if you think of integration as you're approaching
(18:33):
the motorway and you're merging into the maintraffic. and that point you've got to maintain
speed and if you can't maintain speed it's notgoing to be a fun journey for you. But I don't
know, would you, after me saying that, can yousee the connection between the two or am I
just going off on a whim here? I think the changecurve and the grief curve are really helpful
(18:56):
lenses to think about the experience of losingsomething, someone, of change, of loss, of
grief. and certainly have helped me along myway to make sense of loss and grief. And where
I've come to now Matt is very much that everyone'sexperience of loss is different and that the
(19:20):
change curve, the grief curve, which is describedbeautifully by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in her
book for anybody interested. is helpful as isappreciating that each person's own experience
of loss is very different. And what I wantedto talk about with you was the loss of confidence,
(19:51):
of losing confidence and finding it and resiliencethrough my own experience. Because these are
two things that have been woven closely togetherthroughout my life. And I thought it would
be helpful to talk about losing confidence,losing a sense of self and self-belief. And
(20:14):
what has helped me, and one of the things thatalong my way has helped me to make sense of
some of the experiences that I've had indeedwas discovering that somebody had thought about
this curve. and it helped me to make sense ofit mentally, whilst probably in my heart still
(20:39):
having a way to go. And I love your metaphorof needing to be able to travel at speed to
get on the motorway. And if you're not ready,don't get on it. You know, you might need a
little bit longer in the lay-by and or in oneof the side roads. And it's that. meandering
in the side road, stopping in a lay-by and feelinga bit lost with grief that I think is very
(21:08):
personal to everybody. Definitely, I agree withthat. A nice metaphor Matt, I must say, you
know, when you're not quite ready, like whenyou first asked me to come and speak about
loss, I was right in it, there was no way Iwas ready to... jump in the car with you and
(21:28):
head on to the motorway. I wasn't even yet sureI was in the right lay by, let alone the road.
And that's the thing, I think it's importantto have conversation because I think at that
point, I don't think at the point I knew yourmum had passed. You didn't. I think it was
just a conversation and later when you let meknow, and that was where it's like, that's
(21:51):
fine. No harm, no foul. It is what it is. AndI think it's important that we talk but it's
hard and I think Yeah, it's important to onelet me go back with the change curve and the
grief curve all those things I mentioned toyou in it They don't necessarily go in that
order. It's just as helpful. Yes a helpful guideBut also it's just letting people know that
(22:11):
when you're going through something like thatI'll be there and support wherever I can the
reason why I guess I can use a lot of metaphorsbecause I'm very open and try to express my
emotions the best way possible. I feel whatI feel so that when I talk to other people
about what they're going through, I can hopefullyhave a better connection with them and hopefully
articulate what they're trying to just becauseI experience it, I sit in the moment. I don't
(22:36):
get it wrong, for those around me, at timesit's not the most nice because I'm in a bit
of a mood, but it's because I'm feeling whatI am feeling. So when I have conversations
like this or speaking to others, I'm able toarticulate what maybe they struggle to because
they're not allowed to feel what they're feelingbecause their schedule is so hectic, they cannot
afford to. And as we're, as we're talking, weknow there's a cost of living crisis going
(22:58):
on in the UK and probably across the world.So everyone's all about, I need to get paid.
Cause if I don't get paid, that's going to bemore stress. Which is going to be more detrimental
to my health, not much my mental health, myphysical and everything else. And this is where
I think it's important that we do talk to theright people. Cause some people just want gossip.
We don't want those people, but talk to theright people so they can offer you the right
(23:19):
support. and sometimes that support is justknowing that they're there if and when you
need them, whether it's to ramble, whether it'sjust to keep you feeling like they acknowledge
you as an individual, like you said, you lostyour confidence and identity and stuff like
that. Sometimes when you are lost in a momentlike that, and I'm, you know, please correct
(23:40):
me if I'm wrong, when you're in a new environment,a new situation, you can lose who you are because
you're not willing to
that confidence. Some people will not know whoyou are, but those that know who you are will
continue to be there with you, sit with youand be saying, when you're ready to drive,
(24:02):
we'll drive. When you're ready to merge, we'llmerge, but not a moment too soon. I love that
Matt and something you said really resonateswith me about meeting people where they are
at. And I think I'd like to talk about whereI lost my confidence, my self-belief and how
(24:22):
I found it again. And it certainly finding itwas through being met where I was at. And I
think earlier on in our conversation, you mentionedthe kind of parents who were like my parents,
very disciplinarian, particularly my father.So there was a lot of telling me what to do,
(24:45):
telling me who I was. and that contributed tomy not really knowing who I was. And somebody
once spoke to me about how they felt as if theyhad been bent out of shape by some of their
experiences. And I remember thinking that'skind of what happened to me when I was a child.
(25:10):
I was bent out of shape. In other words, I wasbent out of my own shape. And it took me quite
a long time to find my confidence, my self-belief,and to bend back into my self, into my own
shape, my true shape. And that came throughsearching for meaning and purpose, which I
(25:33):
had also lost. My parents, when I look back,they're both dead now, very much wanted to
give me and my sister opportunities that theydidn't have and for them that was education.
They wanted us to have a good education andwhat mattered to them is that we did well.
(25:57):
And I was very happy at my first school, myprimary school, I remember it. I used to walk
to school with my mum, my sister and I madetwo very special friends there called Suzanne
and Timothy. who, when my parents decided tohave me move schools, to go to a different
(26:19):
school, I lost contact with completely. Andinstead of walking to school with my mum and
my friends, my father drove me to school inanother town, the town in which he worked.
And he was a very hard worker. They were bothhard workers. And at the time in the early
(26:41):
60s, having children as they had me and my sister.My mum stopped working as a teacher and became
a full-time housewife and looking back on thatshe also worked very hard in the house, in
(27:01):
the home, in looking after us as he did throughhis work. But they had very, very distinct
roles but what they shared. was this ambitionfor both me and my sister to do well and to
go to a good school. And I think our primaryschool was a good school, but they decided,
(27:24):
as I say, to move us to another school in abigger town. And that's where my father drove
me every day and my mum would pick me up. Sometimesafter school, we would go and play on the Moors
with my mum and grandma. I lived, I was broughtup in Yorkshire, for those listeners who know,
(27:48):
I was born and brought up in West Yorkshire,near Halifax, and I'm a very proud Yorkshire
lass, as they would say. When I was 10 yearsold, my parents decided that it was time for
me to move schools again, naturally, as in...junior school was finished and they decided
(28:12):
to send me to boarding school in a completelydifferent town far away from home, not in the
country and a long way from everything thatI knew from family, from friends, from the
landscape that I knew. So it was my next bigexperience of loss. So my first experience
(28:41):
of loss was the change of school, losing twoclose friends who I remember to this day and
going to a school again where I didn't knowpeople. When I arrived at the boarding school
I felt very, very different. I felt very lostand one of the things that I consciously chose
(29:06):
to do was to lose my accent. So not that I hada really broad Yorkshire accent and those listeners
who are from Yorkshire will have already detectedmy accent but when I arrived at boarding school
(29:28):
the first thing that I noticed was that I didn'tspeak like others and I didn't have the same
shared experiences of them either. Many of themhad come from families where family members
had already been to boarding school. Nobodyin my family had ever, ever been to boarding
(29:51):
school. And so it was a very alien experience,not only for me, but also for my parents who'd
made the decision. I think when I look backon it, I I understand why they made the decision,
but I was very, very unhappy. And I spent fivereally difficult years being quite difficult,
(30:16):
being one of those difficult people. It wasdifficult. And I think I was difficult when
I look back. What my parents were committedto was this good education. However, after
five years of being there, I was given the choice.to come back home and to live back in West
(30:39):
Yorkshire with them, which is what I did andI went to the local comprehensive school. So
I rarely talk about having been sent away toboarding school, but it has had a huge impact
on my life of feeling lost and of losing myselfduring that time. and those years were very
(31:07):
formative and very significant in who I've becomereally. I don't think I did feel safe, it didn't
feel like a particularly safe environment, butthat was because it was unknown, unfamiliar,
it was a city environment, not a country location,
(31:34):
happiest in the countryside. I love being outside.I love walking. My happiest times with my family
as a child were those at the weekend when weeither walked together and or when I some I
often walked on my own. I loved walking andstill do. that is a lot of change to go through
(31:56):
at such a young age and young impressionableage. Did you react negatively or out of character?
I say it with quotation marks out of character,because you know, you don't know what your
character is necessarily if like you said before,what your parents would tell you was, versus
what you was, was never aligned at that point.So did you react in a negative way or out of
(32:19):
character? To all those changes? The answeris I don't know much. I didn't know any different
really. And it was only, I remember visitinga friend from boarding school while I was still
at that school and going to stay with her andher parents. And that was one of the first
(32:45):
times that I realised other families were notas strict and disciplinarian. and didn't have
the same rules as our family. So my parentshad very strict rules which they themselves
probably lived by, but certainly I felt I hadto do as I was told and not ask. I've always
(33:12):
been naturally curious and this serves me wellin my life and leadership, but. probably as
a child it didn't always serve me well and itgot me into trouble. So I was myself but I
was definitely bent out of shape and when Icame back home to live with my parents it was
(33:39):
difficult for them and for me because I'd hadfive years of being away. and only being at
home during holidays, which had not been easyreally. We'd had fun times, but they were also
quite difficult fitting back in and not feelinglike I did. Remember that I'd changed to a
(34:02):
certain extent the way I spoke. So then my friendsat the local church where my parents attended,
they thought I was posh. And then when I wentback to school, I had to remember to speak
like I spoke when I was at school. So I feltthis sense of not fitting in either at home
(34:31):
or at school.
And that did change when I went to the comprehensiveschool, walked to school again, but it wasn't
(34:54):
an easy time. By then I was 16 years old. Myparents weren't used to having me there all
the time. They used to having their own livesseparately because by then my sister was also
at boarding school. So I don't think it waseasy for them and it certainly wasn't easy
for me. And there's a lovely quote from BrenéBrown. She asked the question, what's the opposite
(35:21):
of fitting in? And the answer she gives is...Standing out? Belonging. Oh, I like that. I
like that too. So I mentioned that because that'sa really important part of what I think I had
lost was a sense of belonging. And somethingyou said earlier, a feeling of being... well
(35:47):
met and of being met where I was at. I don'tthink I felt that in my teenage years and that's
what I lost was a sense of who I am and of belongingwhich I set about finding. Really insightful.
(36:08):
So do you think the fact that you had to effectively,and there's a term called cold switching where
you talk one way with one group of people, thenyou switch it up for another group of people.
Do you think that had a negative impact on yougetting closer to your identity sooner rather
than later? Possibly, Matt. I think that theimportance of being well-met, of difference
(36:34):
and of belonging were things that I became acutelyaware of. I don't think I... knew that I was,
that I had lost my confidence and resiliencein who I was, because I don't know that I knew
(36:54):
I'd ever found it. It was only when I left thecomprehensive school where I hadn't done very
well and I didn't get into university to dowhat I wanted to do. which was art and English,
a combined degree. And it was through my fatherwho at the time read a magazine called Private
(37:22):
Eye and he spotted, I think he was quite desperatethat I was going to be living at home for an
extended period and keen for me to go somewhere,anywhere. And I was very fortunate. I got in
on BA Honours degree in Communication Studiesat what was then Sheffield Polytechnic. And
(37:48):
those three years were years I look back onof realising I was a bit lost because the course
had attracted people of all ages from very differentbackgrounds. It was a very multi-modular course
and quite revolutionary for its time. and itwas other people's comments, feedback to me
(38:16):
that I think made me realise that I was a bitdirectionless. I was, you know, in, I didn't
really know why I was doing the degree. I foundit interesting. I rarely spoke in seminar groups,
hardly ever if at all, and that was partly becauseof my upbringing and feeling that it was better
(38:42):
to be quiet rather than to ask questions. SoI definitely internalized some of the messages
that I had received and I was not speaking out.And that's probably why there's a quote, another
quote I really love, Matt, which has just cometo me in this moment. It's a Vanessa Redgrave.
(39:07):
which she gave when she was awarded somethingfor her service to acting and the whole industry.
And she said, find your truth and your voicewill follow. I can get behind that. It's so
good that and that's what I hadn't found. Iwas lost. I had been brought up as a Christian
(39:34):
and I had lost that faith. which had, you know,I'd really questioned it and lost it. So by
the time I was studying for communication studies,I had lost quite a lot and hadn't really yet
found my truth. And now when I look back, Ithink I had, that's why I had lost my voice.
(40:00):
And then I had an extremely
which was to change me and I describe it asI woke up to myself and I hadn't in that experience
(40:22):
really listened to myself. I didn't trust myself,I didn't trust my instincts, I didn't trust
my intuition and I had to... get myself outof a really difficult situation, which I did.
And afterwards, I knew I needed help. And thehelp came in various forms. And one of those
(40:52):
forms was from an older,
weekend workshop, it's kind of therapy, it'sa group therapy workshop. And I had, through
(41:14):
my studying psychology, heard of therapy, obviously,but I had no experience of group therapy, of
being in a group which was a therapeutic group.And I said yes, because that felt like the
right thing to do. And not unlike going to anew school, meeting new people, I knew nobody
(41:40):
there. It was completely alien to me. Everybodywas sitting in a circle on cushions on the
floor and it was like nothing I'd ever known.However, I felt well met. I felt seen, I felt
heard, and I felt understood. The facilitatorand everybody was the... that was there and
(42:04):
part of that group had me feel a sense of belongingand that I could be myself. And I began to
find my truth and my voice. And also, I discoveredmy metier, Matt. I realised, I witnessed this
(42:25):
facilitator, I described them, his name wasJohn Heron, as a elegant. facilitator. He,
with everybody that was there, created thisvery safe environment in which we did the work
we had come to do, whatever that was, and inthe way that we did it. And I thought one day
(42:50):
that's what I want to do. I have found whatI wanted to do. So it was like a door opening,
and not unlike when you think of a if I thinkusing a metaphor that perhaps will resonate,
it was like having a house and not having open,knowing that the rooms were there, but never
(43:15):
having opened the doors, perhaps through fearof what might be in there. And for me, this
weekend workshop helped me to start openingthese doors that for whatever reason I had
closed. And... to build the foundations of whoI have become. And it was at that time that
(43:42):
I changed my name from Anne to Annie. So it'slike you found your identity and you put it
out there by saying, please don't address meas this, because this is who I am and I feel
empowered by that. Yeah, it was an internalthing. And then... In the day when people sent
(44:02):
postcards to each other, I was working, helpset up and was working in a whole food. When
I finished my degree, I had no idea still whatI wanted to do. I'd found my metier around
the time I'd finished my degree, but I had noidea really how to realise it. However, at
(44:27):
the same time, I... chose to study child psychologypart time and to help set up a whole food cooperative
which had a huge big ambition which was aroundrecycling, people brought their own bags and
jars in, we made sure people knew where thefood was sourced from and we were able to engage
(44:56):
in the local community. visited, shopped andsupported what was called Down to Earth in
Sheffield. A time I'm really proud of and wepioneered flexible working, job rotation and
because of that I was able to study child psychologybut only for a short while because it was while
(45:19):
I was studying and being supervised that myvery wise supervisor suggested that maybe child
psychology was not for me. And the reason thatI was studying it was that I needed to do a
bit of digging in my own childhood and suggestedto me that I got some one-to-one therapy, which
(45:44):
is what I did. And at the same time, I alsoknew that I wanted to believe in the power
of groups and working with groups. that begana whole journey of exploring humanistic psychology,
of studying and practicing as a group therapistand ultimately led me to do a Masters in Management
(46:10):
Learning. And is that what led you into thejob role you're doing now, which is in leadership?
Yeah, very much so. So I did the Masters whenI was in my early 30s. and by then I was living
near Lancaster University. I studied in Lancasterand I lived on the Moors. I was part of a community,
(46:37):
had a sense of belonging and myself ran workshopsand realised that what I wanted to do was to
work with people in the business world, in thecorporate world and across sectors. So that's
Yeah, that's how I came to do that. And wouldit be the case that the reason why you're connected
(47:02):
to do it and you're so passionate about it isbecause in some way, you're trying to stop
people feeling the loss that you felt kind ofjust drifting through life, or your career
and saying, you may not have found your identity.But here's some other people that look like
they've got it together for your conversations.Here, listen to them. Let me help you and you're
(47:27):
tapping into your past experiences and helpingreframe it in a way that is positive to say,
you may feel like this, this and this, fine,use that energy and it can become this with
the right sense of direction. That can helpyou the direction by however you present that
information. I'm taking a stab in the dark here,tell me if I'm right or wrong. Well as you
(47:51):
take that stab in the dark. It reminds me thatI... There is some, there was something that
I have, the way I've described the journey is,makes it sound quite linear, that I discovered
humanistic psychology, all the different practices,that I had one-to-one therapy, which helped
(48:20):
me to be present to myself, to find my truth,and that I was. living in the country, leading
and running workshops and doing some trainingas well for others. And what I haven't shared
yet, Matt, which I think is important, is thatthen I had the first of three ectopic pregnancies,
(48:48):
which was a huge loss and shock. So there Iwas having found my truth and found my purpose
and with my partner became pregnant, was happy,delighted, felt really confident in my body
(49:11):
and my work in myself and was doing work withwomen only groups on you know our body ourselves
was a book that informed my practice. I wasvery involved in a number of different communities
and then this thing happened. And it was a tremendousloss on a par, but very different from the
(49:39):
sense of loss of identity I had felt in my lateteens when I had the really traumatic experience.
And clearly having an ectopic pregnancy at threemonths was very traumatic. and was also life-threatening
thanks to the NHS I survived and I was verychanged by it and I think when I mentioned
(50:09):
around confidence and resilience earlier ittook me quite a long time to I was once again
very bent out of shape having found myself Ilost myself again through this loss. which
was huge and I wasn't even sure after that firstectopic pregnancy that I would be able to bend
(50:36):
back into shape again.
So when you said, did that lead you to the workyou did, the kind of the masters? Actually,
(51:03):
it was the loss of hope and possibility thatI experienced in the first and then the second
ectopic pregnancy that had me lose confidenceagain in myself and what I was doing. and had
me re-evaluate everything and had me, as itturned out, think about what else I could do
(51:32):
and where I would like to work. And that's whatdrew me to do the masters, to study, to learn,
because at that moment I thought it might notbe possible for me to have children. And I...
thought very purposefully about where I wantedto grow my work and where I wanted to do it.
(51:58):
In fact, I am a mum, I have two beautiful grown-updaughters who I'm proud of every day and I'm
very fortunate and again very grateful for thehelp that I got along the way. I treasure them
every day dearly. That is so beautiful and Wow,I feel like I need a part two just for that
(52:22):
in itself. Gosh, look at you just dropping thesemassive, massive gems. I'm very conscious of
time, so I'll ask you a couple questions. Oneof them would be. What would you say to your
younger self at your lowest point during whatyou've just described? What would you say to
(52:44):
your younger self to help you push through andnot give in, stop putting that foot in front
of the other? What would you tell yourself sothat you could hear the message of encouragement
that will get you through that darkest days?I love you. I'm proud of you. You'll be alright.
(53:10):
Do you think you'd hear that? I think I wouldtuck it away and I would know it and reach
for it and eventually believe it. And wouldthat be in your teens? Would that be when you're
in your early 30s or during the pregnancies?Throughout life actually, Matt. I think I reach
(53:40):
into that. I think it's what I would have lovedto hear more of as a child. I certainly did
hear it from my parents when... my relationshipwith them grew and grew and about 10-12 years
(54:02):
ago, they moved to live close to me and duringknowing that they would be living their last
years close to me that I had a role to playin loving them caring for them and ensuring
that they felt some of the things that perhapswe hadn't felt when I was growing up, I wanted
(54:31):
them to feel as they were growing old. And sofinding that love, particularly in our relationship
towards the end of their lives, not that ithadn't been there before, but really feeling
it and hearing. both of them say those thingsto me. I can remember having a doorstep conversation
(54:58):
with somebody who is a writer and sharing somethingsimilar about what we would have loved to have
heard as children more. So maybe we did hearit, but we didn't take it into your point.
Things got in the way. I remember sharing withher what I would have loved to hear more of,
(55:25):
but that I did hear now was that I was loved,that they were proud of me and that they believed
in me. And I do think in terms of losing confidenceand resilience, not only self-belief matters,
but the belief of others, particularly at thoselow points, you know, those low points, it's
(55:46):
the sometimes at the edge. at those low points,it's the belief of others that has in me, that
has helped me to find my feet again, friends,family, and also being in nature has helped
me to, you know, to find the confidence I'dlost, to rebuild my resilience, to knit myself
(56:13):
together again, with their help. And I reallyhave experienced that and feel especially privileged
and humbled to have been with my sister whenmy when our mother died. She was one side of
(56:34):
her. I was the other side of her. And I neverreally understood the phrase passing away.
But it really did feel like our beloved mum.passed away. And I think for both of us, it
made us wish that we had been able to be therewith my father when he died. Both my parents
(56:58):
died where they wanted to be, which is great.And both were, as we were, greatly supported
by others in their end of lives and in theirdying. If I could stretch through here and
give you a big old cuddle, I really would. Thatwas... Matt Welly, I would give you one back.
(57:24):
Oh, that definitely hit me. That was beautiful.And yeah, they did a great job in raising you.
All the hard work, all the seeds they pouredinto you, they watered it. They dug deep to
make sure that they was really, really buriedinto your being, who you are. The massive impact
(57:44):
you're having. Thank you. thankfully with thehelp of technology, the masses you're helping,
they probably never knew. They hoped that you'ddo great things, but they probably never knew
you're gonna achieve the greatness that youhave and will continue to hit. So. Well, Matt,
I have to interrupt you there. Because my dadused to say, when are you going to get a proper
(58:08):
job? because I definitely didn't do what theyexpected and or wanted me to do and certainly
not what they had imagined for me and I thinkas I was growing up I didn't I really do recognize
that they did the best with what they had gotand wanted the best for me I think I have parented
(58:33):
very differently and but of loving and caringand being there in a way that I didn't always
feel that they were for me but that we wereable to find within each other and for each
(58:55):
other certainly in our lives. Well the way Isee it is that with my wife, with my kids,
if I could say to God this is what I want, Iwant this, are you sure? Yeah, I want that.
I would have got such a lesser version, lesserquality of life than the one that's provided
(59:17):
to me. So as much as they may not have understoodwhat you did or may not have appreciated the
weight of what you carry, you smashed everyexpectations. And I know that for a fact. And
I'm so grateful for you. And I know that becauseof what they poured into you, that's coming
(59:38):
out. whether it be right or wrong, it's stillpouring up. Absolutely. Because what you didn't
necessarily agree with, you're then changingit in a different way. Agreed. If you agreed
with it, you perpetuate it. So, love that foryou and so grateful for this conversation.
Thank you, Matt. Thank you for having me onthis conversation and being such a great podcaster.
(01:00:01):
I try. Just trying to emulate you, that's all.So, if I could ask you for the next two minutes
to share. where you're at, what you're doing,how people can get in contact with you because
I'm sure people will be like I want a part two,can you just fill in some of these blanks for
me. So the floor is yours young lady. Thankyou, well I'd love a part two with you Matt
(01:00:24):
and of course you're going to be a guest onmy podcast so for listeners who would like
to tune in and listen to guests I've alreadybeen in conversation with do check out Leaders
in Conversation with Annie Townend. The otherplace to find me is my website, Annie Townend,
that's Annie without an E and Townend withoutan S, annietownend.com and or you can email
(01:00:53):
me directly at annietownend.com and I look forwardto interacting with you to any of your listeners.
I wish you well in your journey of making senseof loss, of living your life and your leadership
(01:01:14):
and I truly look forward to connecting withyou. That was beautiful. Folks, you know how
it is, I am just gobsmacked to have conversationswith people like this and I guess for people
that don't know much about Annie, without Annie,it's the fact that she just... her consistency,
(01:01:36):
like even a branding, her website matches herpodcasts. All of that is the consistency is
real. She in an episode she thanks the editor.I should thank myself for editing. Thank you
future Matt for editing this podcast. You dida great job. You know, she always giving flowers
out and that is just so beautiful because Ithink not a lot of us do it. We always went
(01:01:57):
into the person's path and we give them flowersin their tomb song, which is no good to them
at that point. She gives them their flowers.She's such a strong individual and that phrase
says you never make your strong person withan easy pass and this even though it was a
Tip the smallest tip of the iceberg kind ofgave you an insight into what she's had to
overcome what she's had to navigate and It'smade her the version of herself that she is
(01:02:22):
today and the beautiful thing about it Is shestill growing evolving and willing to learn
and change and adapt? accordingly She didn'tgive up when she had those pregnancies that
didn't come to fruition, unfortunately. Butthen here she is with what she has. She may
not have had the best relationship with herfamily, but she still pushed on and thankfully,
it became something beautiful still. There'sa lot of things that she's had to overcome.
(01:02:46):
She took a course that thankfully, the lecturersaid to her, mmm, this ain't for you. And sometimes
you need to have those honest conversationswhich may not sound nice at the time. but the
long term results are right for the individual.And I think if nothing else, folks, just take
the honesty. And if you have to re-listen toit, so be it. But I think there's so much value
(01:03:09):
in what's been communicated today. And I can'tthank Annie enough for sharing. Hopefully she
will come up for part two. But as you guys allknow, I'm a big fan of saying to you that your
right now is not your forever. So please notdwelling it for too long, longer than you need
to. And there's nothing about a caterpillar.take is going to be a butterfly. Any stories
(01:03:30):
tell you that in abundance. So look after yourselfand I look forward to seeing you in the next
episode.
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