Ep 51 | Finding Success on Your Own Terms: My Journey Without Drama School feat. Ashley Joseph - Every L Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
always had a challenge around not feeling likeI'm wanted, you know, and that I think it,
no, not I think, I know, and I've got to behonest with myself and the world, that comes
from, you know, a single parent family and thatexperience of not having a father that was
present, you know, really, definitely, and it'sbecome more apparent becoming a father myself.

(00:24):
So I had a lot of fear. I didn't deal with it.
Welcome ladies and gentlemen, I'm your host,Matt Brown and you're listening to the Every

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L Podcast. Each episode we'll have a differentguest come on and talk about when life hangs
you in L, is it really a loss or is it somethingelse? Because not every L's a loss. So sit
back, relax and do what every guy do to getcomfortable as we get into this. Let's go!

(01:15):
Welcome everyone to another episode of EveryoPodcast where every week we have a different
guest come on and talk about their personalcircumstances about what they consider a loss
and describe if it actually was in the end.They will talk about the highs, the lows, everything
in between, and just kind of get into nittygritty because I think it's important that
we share our experiences in life because fromthe outside looking in, our life looks rosy.

(01:38):
I'm talking about Instagram ready to filterthe whole shebang. But then when you look at
your bank account, When you look at your maritalstatus, when you look at the car you're driving,
no field was working on that. So sometimes youhave to come true with it and just show what
people have got in terms of I've got this becauseI went through that, or I don't have this because

(02:00):
I'm going through that. One thing I was talkingto someone today about actually was there's
so many people that are willing to tell youhow much they spent, which is calm. Tell me
how much you spent. But I'd rather know howmuch you earn because It's all relative. If
you're clocking in six figures and you're spendingtwo grand on a bag, cool. You've got the money
for it. But if you're on 20K salary and youspend two K in a bag, what are you paying off

(02:23):
that for, for seven years? Don't try and makeme feel jealous because that's not gonna really
work. And I think it's really important thatwe have these type of conversations where people
sort of pull back the veil so people can seewhat's really going on. And it's not because
I'm trying to say that other people are lyingoutright. It's just sometimes society makes
us just feel peer pressure to follow what everyoneelse is doing. But I think it's important for

(02:44):
our own wellbeing that we understand that noteverything we see is actually in that context
or is actually real. It's not good for us tocompare because there's a phrase, comparison
is a fee for full joy. So why wouldn't compareourselves to another? Let's enjoy ourselves
and enjoy what we've got. And even if it isa bit of a, not such a great experience in

(03:04):
the moment, let's see where that could takeus. That was a bit of a long intro, apologies
people. However, I must admit I have a fantasticguest and we know it's cliche I say that, but
it's true. This gentleman I met a little whileago, didn't really think much of him because
he's an everyday person as far as I'm concerned.We got chatting, cool people, fantastic human

(03:25):
being from how I heard from him. And then I'vejust seen him every now and again and he's
just doing the most. He's got more hours inthe day than I've got. He's clocking up frequent
flyer miles. He's splitting himself into threepeople to do. multiple jobs and I'm like, yo,
how did you do that? Can you teach me becauseI've got a whole heap of kids here and I need
to make sure I can give them adequate daddytime. But I can't do that magic trick you're

(03:48):
doing. Can you tell me a little secret here?And I'll tell you what, right? He's splitting
himself into so many people, right? They'veprobably got one version of himself sitting
down playing his PlayStation 5. Like that'show skilled he is. I have the fantastic Ashley.
He is a great guy. He's extremely talented.And with anybody that's talented, sometimes

(04:10):
the ego comes along with it. And I think it'sbecause you have to put yourself in that position.
However, he is a humble guy. You would neverknow what he's capable of. I don't even know
the full extent of what he's capable of. Butwhat I can see, a little bit intimidated, a
little bit. But that's my introduction to him.I'm gonna let him go in and share what he feels
comfortable sharing before we jump into hisfirst L. Ashley, how are you doing? I'm really,

(04:35):
really good. Thank you for that intro, Matt.That was brilliant. And the thing that got
me the most was I was thinking, yeah, man, thereare no filters on cars and houses. It's just
real. But yeah, I'm great. I'm doing well. Andthank you for having me on Every Hell Podcast.
I'm going to share a bit about my life. Forthose of you who don't know me, I'm Ashley

(04:57):
Joseph. I'm an actor, writer and presenter.I've been working in the business for Gosh.
Um, 20 years this year, I just realized, ohmy gosh, it's 20 years since I had my first
professional contract. Congratulations. Yeah.So, um, that's where I'm at and you may know
me as the voice of Jared from CBB's Jojo andgrand grand. I've done things like extenders,

(05:17):
uh, projects for ITV to Amazon prime. And yeah,lots of different stuff, but that's, that's
who I am. But, um, most of all, I'm just a personwho wants to make everything I touch and every
person I connect with better. Wow. He's hadthat effect on me, so I can't complain. I just
need to learn that magic trick. I need to knowhow to split myself in them ways and make my

(05:39):
life so much easier. That version of playingthe PlayStation, I think that's what I really
want, if I'm honest. He's not there. That'swhat you want to tell me, right? It don't exist,
and you're just out there clocking your games,and I'm like, what? I haven't played PlayStation
in about eight years. I'm not gonna lie to you.I ain't bought a PlayStation 5 for that sole
reason. I ain't got time to play my PlayStation4, so why am I wasting one on the PlayStation

(06:01):
5? I didn't even get to the PS4. I still gota PS3. Yeah, yeah, I'm just the graft. But
you're two decades strong in the game. Yeah,man. You invested your time in something else,
so respect to that. Thank you. So folks, youknow how it is. I get people that tell me what
their L's are they wanna talk about. I lookat it, don't pay it no mind, and then when

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it comes to interview, we delve a little bitdeeper. So the first L that Ashley said that
he wants to talk about is not getting into dramaschool. Now, you've heard his backstory in
terms of what his career looks like. So forhim to not to get into drama school makes me
feel like a, I'm going to say this actor, andI don't mean that the violent side of it, a

(06:42):
Will Smith moment where you didn't go dramaschool, but hopefully you didn't go slap no
one, but you still managed to make a good goalof it, but not getting to drama school potentially
could mean that dream is not going to happento you because a Will Smith only comes on once
in a lifetime, but What about me? How am I goingto get there? I think it's interesting to hear

(07:04):
that. Cause I'm like, how would you do it? Causeif you're set your heart and if you knew from
the jump, that's where you want to get intoand you don't get to drama school, that feels
like I'm flipping burgers at Maccy D's. No shamein it. But if that's not what you want to do,
how do you deal with that? So I'll ask you togo back to the talk where you feel it's relevant
and tell me how that, how that panned out. Okay.Yeah. I was, um, I was about 16 at the time

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and I was at. I was at college or sixth formstudying A levels. I was doing drama and theater
studies, media studies and psychology. And thiswhole thing come up about what you're going
to do. You cast, are you going to go uni? AndI was like, I don't know if I want to go to
university and do a degree, but that's whateveryone was doing. I was at a sixth form,
which had high achievers. So a lot of peoplewere applying to the Oxford and Cambridge and

(07:50):
I was like, that's not me. And I had an incredibledrama teacher who I'm still in contact with
today, which is amazing. And she said, you know,you, you got to go drama school. You've. you've
got the ability. And in my head, I was like,I'm going to be an actor. That's what I'm going
to be going to be an actor. I'm going to doit. I'm going to smash it. And I remember speaking
to some people and they were saying Rada andcentral St. Martin's and Guildhall. And I looked

(08:13):
at them and I researched and I was like centralschool speech and drama. That's where I want
to go. Central school speech and drama. I canstay at home. I can get the Jubilee line from
Cannontown to Swiss cottage, Holtite, Cannontown,and I was going to, and I was going to apply.
And I had a. certain energy about me of thatwhatever I'm going to do, I'm going to do it
and I'm going to do it by myself and I don'tneed no help and I'm going to get there and

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I remember applying to central school speechand drama and I was like yeah I'm going to
do it and there's like you need contemporaryspeeches and classic speeches I was like well
I don't know what that is so I go to my dramateacher I'm like what sort of contemporary
classic is that right you can do this one acontemporary means a play that's set after
Shakespeare more or less and not Greek tragedyand you need to get some two Shakespeare monologues.

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So we'll do Hamlet and we'll do Macbeth andda da. And so I'm working with my drama teacher
chopping it up. And I'm gonna be honest, I'ma good actor. I'm probably one of the best
in my class. I know this. Every practical examso far, I've been getting full marks in. So
it's like, of course I'm gonna get into dramaschool. And I remember I get a letter saying,
I've got my audition. And so I say to my dramateacher, this is great, I got an audition,

(09:19):
first round, first round. And at the first round,they say to everyone in the room, two things.
They say, well, three things. Go to CentralSchool of Teaching Drama, obviously. Three
things are, one, when we call your name, youcome up and audition. After people deliver
their speech, don't clap. No one claps here.I was like, whoa, what do you mean you don't

(09:40):
get a, that's what you do. You perform, youget applause. I used to get an applause. So
that was like, okay, that was a bit weird. Andwe're just in this room, just like in a horseshoe
shape and there's a panel on the table. I can'ttell you who those people were. Don't know,
can't remember. I'm not saying they weren'timportant, I just don't remember. It's just
the feeling of going, I'm going to kill this.I'm going to smash this audition. And the other

(10:01):
thing they said was there are 5000 people thathave applied for a place on a course for 30.
So well done. You've got through to this stage.Now, I'm thinking it's the first stage. So
that means that these 5000 people that's internationallyhave applied, I've got to this stage. So when
they say that, I'm like, fam. I'm going to slaythis. I'm going to slay this. I'm getting in.

(10:25):
I'm going to do it. I'm killing it. So I getup, I do my speech. It's a speech from... What
was the play? The play was... It was a playcalled West. I'm sure it was called West. And
it was a play we was doing for our last performance.So by the time I've applied and stuff, it's
like I'm 17 now. This process is happening.I'm trying to condense it. So I do it whatever

(10:50):
happens. get a message on my UCAS because CentralSchool of Speech and Drama at the time was
the only drama school you could apply to throughUCAS. All the rest you had to apply independently.
So I get a message saying I've got a recall.I'm through to the next round. I'm like, yes,
to my drama teacher. I'm popping around theschool. You know, yo, this is a more biscuit
form. I got the recall. I'm the guy. I'm goingto get it. So my drama teacher and I working

(11:11):
on stuff again. And she says, look, and justso people understand, this is back in the day
around 2004, 2005. And she says something tome that's always stuck with me for several
reasons. She says to me, you're going to goto that recall. You're going to do the session
because it had to be like a workshop session.And then you do your speeches again. And she

(11:32):
said, there's going to be another black guyin that room. It's going to be you and another
black boy. The rest of the people probably bothmost likely be white. And she said, it's between
you and him. That's what you're talking about,man. Now I'm from East London. So. I'm just
born in the womb of multiculturalism diversity.So at no point have I ever thought about that.

(11:52):
I've never thought, well, just because there'sone black guy in a thing, it can't be another
black guy or whoever. Something is just chattingrubbish, man. I get there, there's 30 of us.
And they say, out of this 30, we're only taking16 on this course. So I've got down from 5,000
to 30. So now I'm like, raw, this is me. Andthen I meet. all the people in the room and

(12:18):
like she says, it's me and one other black guy.Everyone else is white and is one oriental
person and I think damn and he's a nice guy.And it's so funny because I remember meeting
this guy and I was like what's your name? It'slike I'm Ollie and that's a whole nother story
but really nice guy and great energy and sowe do the stuff. I kill my audition, I smash

(12:40):
it. They asked me to do one of my Shakespearespeeches and I went for the same Shakespeare
speech I'd already done. I thought I'm gonnado that one. I like it. I'm more confident
with it. I don't know if that would have changedanything. Anyway, every day I'm checking my
UCAS from them because it would be acceptedor declined or conditional offer, whatever.
I've got conditional offers from other universities,but I don't wanna go there. It's not a drama

(13:03):
school. If it's a drama course, that's not whereI'm meant to be. So I'm very much at this moment
in life tunnel vision. I'm thinking this iswhat I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to go
drama school and the drama school I'm goingto is central. I ain't going anywhere else.
And I remember making a few friends at the auditionday and one of them messaged me going, I got
in, did you hear anything? And I was like, oh,not yet. And then the next day is like, oh,

(13:25):
I didn't get in. Is everything all right? Andthen there's two things that happen. I don't
get in, I feel like my world's over. I feellike this, what am I doing to myself? I shouldn't
be acting. What am I gonna do? And I don't wannago to any of these other drama schools. I don't
wanna, I'm sorry, universities and do thesedrama courses. I don't wanna pay money for
something I don't know if I wanna do. come froma single parent family, I don't wanna be in

(13:48):
debt, I don't wanna put that on my mom or myself.And then this person stops talking to me. This
person who got in and I didn't get in, theystopped messaging me back. And it wasn't Oli,
it was someone else. Oli's lovely, Oli and Istill speak. But I was in a place where I was
just thinking, is this what this industry doesto you? I've given all of this stuff, I've

(14:08):
given my energy, my love, my time, my commitment,my desire, and just like that, no. I remember
talking to my drama teacher and she says, oh,you apply again next year, just apply again
next year. Have a gap year, apply again nextyear, you'll get in. You'll go back. I said,
no. I said, if they don't want me the firsttime, they can't have me. Like I say, I had
a certain arrogance about me at that age. Ifthey don't want me now, they can't have me.

(14:31):
But then I'm racking my brain going, what amI gonna do? Because this is the only gateway
to the world I wanna be in. It's like someonewho wants to be a doctor. They can't just go
in without. that qualification in those yearsof training, in those seven years of being
a junior doctor. So I'm racking my brain going,I don't know what to do, kind of walking around
the house. I was the first person to apply touniversity at my family and get accepted and

(14:54):
go, I'm not going. Wow. Yeah. Because I just,something in my gut, and it's only as I've
got on in my life later on as a Christian, Ifeel like when, when it's in your gut talks
to you, that's God, man. That is God on theBluetooth going, yo. Yeah, he's on the blue.
That's WhatsApp. That's my WhatsApp with God.My gut is my WhatsApp with God. And at the

(15:17):
time I was feeling like I don't know what todo, literally. I had a odd few jobs, like dancing
as well. So I was teaching a bit of dance andstuff. And the end of college is coming up.
I'm getting results and stuff. And I said tomy mum, I had a conversation and the truth
is, is that I kind of stole this from Will Smith.And I proper idolized Will Smith at the time.

(15:42):
And when he got accepted to, I think it's MITor something, mum said, you're not doing this
rap thing again in college. And he said, look,just give us a year. You know, they said, the
parents said, okay, we're gonna give you a year.So I went to mum and said, mum, can I have
one year to make this work, to try and makethis work? Not having a clue what I would do.

(16:03):
And college finished, I got results. I donewell, you know, two A's and a D. and my psychology,
I didn't like the teacher. That's another story.That's another story that actually I allowed
myself to do bad in the subject because I didn'tlike a teacher. That is stupid. Never put your
personal feelings into something that's goingto stop your success, but you learn. You live

(16:26):
and you learn, or you learn as you live. SoI spend the summer just doing anything I can,
like just getting odd little presenting gigs.My whole thing was whatever I'm going to do,
I'm going to be creative because I'm going totry and get to that path. And that's what I
was thinking. I need to survive. I need to showmy mom in a year that I can earn money as a
creative self-employed. My mom was very supportiveand still is, which is great. So I got a job

(16:51):
teaching dance and I used to hang around peoplea lot. I used to hang around theater or Stratford
East. I used to just hang around places thatI knew creatives would be at and just chat
to them like olders and just chat to the olderones who I'd seen on TV who'd been in things
like Desmond or the Royal McCoy and just hangaround them long enough so they think. let's
just give the boy a little sign. Let's just,that's what I'm gonna hang around people. I'm

(17:13):
gonna try and find a way into this industrythat isn't drama school. And I'm gonna learn
on this job. So I got, in a year, it was, Ihad, when I speak about this, I want people
to know there were more days that I wasn't workingthan days are worse. But it's very easy to

(17:34):
go. Oh yeah, I've done this and I've done this.No, there were times that I wasn't working,
literally thinking, what am I gonna do? So Iwas finding odd little dance shows. I got about
three opportunities that helped and this wasbecause I was chatting to people. One of the
things I got was to cover a presenter on MTVbase. I got three gig. This is because I was

(17:56):
dancing all the time and I was starting to getinto presenting and someone had seen me do
it and they said they need a cover. Manchester,Birmingham and Newcastle. It was live shows
with MTV base. I was like, yep, I'm going todo that. So I did it, worked hard. I was 19,
you know, 19th time, got the job, got the jobdone. And you know what? I thought, yeah, this

(18:18):
is it. I'm in. I'm working for a TV company.Didn't get nothing after that. I was literally
just, they had no one else and they got me tofill in and then they went back to all the
normal presenters. So again, I'm just thinking.like what is this? Why do I keep giving this
industry so much and it's giving me nothingback? Like why, like why am I not reaping anything?

(18:39):
And then you start thinking, am I good enough?Do people not like me? Are people trying to
block me? What is going on? I'm just tryingto do what I love. That's it. It's like it's
not even about the money. Yeah, I got to earna living, but I'm just trying to do what I
love.

(19:08):
So that happened and then from September to,I think, around about October, I had nothing
but one job a week. And I was teaching dancefor two hours, making, I think it was like
20 or 25 pound an hour, something like that.So I was making 50 quid a week, 50 quid a week.

(19:29):
That's all I was doing. And then a friend gotin contact with me and went, oh, there's an
audition for this show. that I think you'd begood at, and I wouldn't be good for this show.
And it was like, they was doing a version ofCinderella at this small theater in Southeast
London. So I'm thinking backside, now I've gotto go to Southeast London for this audition,
because I've got nothing. So I'm going to goto Southeast London. I don't think this is

(19:51):
right for me, but I'm going to do it. So someof the money I'm making every week, I've had
to take to travel. I go to this audition, thankfullysomehow, they think I'm good enough. you know,
luckily I can dance, I can act and I can sortof hold a tune and I can do good character
work. So it was like Prince Charming. It wasCinderella version and they want me to be Prince
Charming and kind of play like a movie star.So I was like, great, got a job. I was like,

(20:14):
great, this is it. I'm quid-in. And also, forpeople who are not familiar with the acting
industry, there's a thing called equity, whichis a union. And you want to try and get your
membership and get an equity card. And you eitherget that through going drama school or getting
a professional contract. So I was like, right,boom, I can get my equity card now. this is
it, I'm in, I'm gonna make money. I get thecontract and the contract says that you're

(20:37):
only paid for the performance weeks and notrehearsals. So rehearsals, they only pay your
expenses. So they pay your food and travel expenses.Remember I'm making about 40 to 50 pound a
week. Yeah. Still living at home. Thank Godmy mom's not asking me any rent yet. And so

(21:00):
what that means is every Wednesday I teach andI take that money to travel to these rehearsals
and eat a bit of food or bring packed lunchand do the rehearsals and then go home. It's
like two evenings a week and a weekend. I dothat, I do that and then get the money back
and then try and keep doing it. So every WednesdayI'm teaching to kind of pay for this job and

(21:22):
then get the receipts back. And at the time,equity minimum contract, you would get £325
a week. That was it. And you're supposed toget up for eight shows a week. We were doing
more than eight shows a week. And as a newbie,I didn't know you're supposed to get extra
money for those shows. So I'm just like, I'mgetting money. I'm getting £325. I've gone
from 50 quid a week to £325. Yes. I do thisshow over Christmas. I'm just traveling every

(21:49):
day from East to South. Great company, greatpeople, really lovely directors, a really good
opportunity. The funny thing actually is thatwas one of John Bajega's first jobs. John Bajega
was 13. Wow. Yeah. John Bajega was 13 doingthat job, playing one of my young bucks, so
to speak. Yeah, I do this job and I think thisis it. They helped me out, they get my equity

(22:13):
membership for me. I'm in the union. I'm like,this is great. This is great. I've won. I haven't
gone to drama school and I've won. Boom. Jobfinishes. Nothing. I've got nothing. I've got
no contacts. I've just noticed one director.Really? I just noticed one director. The people
at MTV based are trying to connect with, I don'treally hear anything. People move on. So I

(22:34):
noticed one director and I've been doing oddlittle bits of like community work. So I get
odd little bits of teaching arts to, like insome schools, I'll go and do some projects,
but I've got nothing that's getting me to. whereI want to be, I want to be an actor. So I was
just thinking, maybe it's time to just let thisgo, man, maybe something else I can do. And
then from there, this director says to me, oh,why don't you come to this thing with me? The

(22:58):
same director, Cinderella, she goes, why don'tyou come to this thing? I've been invited to
this whole event networking thing. I think it'dbe great for you. You should meet this guy
because you're good at comedy and he runs thecomedy school. I thought, okay, cool, go to
this thing. I'm thinking, great, I can get anopportunity here. I can get a job. So this
guy goes, yeah, I'll be in contact. He contactsme, I'm like, yeah. He says, yeah, so what

(23:20):
I'd really love for you to do is come on mycomedy course. I was like, okay. Yeah, I can't
remember what it was. Say it was, it's 300 pound.I was like, what? I was like, I can't afford
that. I'm like, well, we can offer a bit ofa discount rate. And say it was like, it's
300 pound, but the discount is 250 quid. It'slike, that ain't a discount, man. That's still
a problem. You know, that's still a problem.So I'm thinking, damn, what can I do? So he

(23:47):
said, look, have a think about it, let me know.I was like, there's nothing to think about.
I've gone back to making 50 pound a week. Ican't afford this, there's no way. So he calls
me again a couple of weeks later and I go, look,mate, I've got no money. Please stop, like,
if I could, I would. And he goes, no, I thinkthere's a way I can help you get onto this

(24:09):
comedy course and actually get you earning somemoney. So he said to me, there's a TIE project
I'm doing. I was like, what's TIE? I mean, what'sTIE? What the fuck's TIE? TIE is theater and
education. So they create theater shows andthey take them into schools and do 30 minute
plays around different themes. In primary schools,it could be road safety and secondary schools,
it could be consent or teen pregnancy, whatever.And this one was particularly about knife crime.

(24:36):
So he said, will you come to the audition? Iwent, yeah, I'll come. Went to the audition.
And do you know what's really interesting aboutthis? When you lose and you haven't got as
many opportunities, every opportunity that comesyour way is a diamond. It's a piece of gold
dust. And so for you, it's not just about becomingan actor or staying on that path. It's actually,

(25:02):
I need this. I need this to win for every singlereason. So whatever anyone does in that room,
I'm gonna be better. I'm gonna be the best.And actually, I don't need to compete with
you. I'm competing with myself because I knowwhat this means to me. So I've got everything
I need within me to achieve this. And so I gointo that audition knowing that whatever happens,

(25:22):
I'm coming out of here with that job. I don'tcare. So the days going on for the audition,
they cut people. I'm still there. They cut people.I know that feeling of being from 5000 to 30
and being cut. So at this moment as I'm gettingcut in these as people are getting cut in these
auditions, this ain't nothing for me. This islike a room of 30. I'm like, this fine. I will
be here at the end of the day. Get to the endof the day. I worked with this really cool

(25:46):
actress who we're still friends now, Tony Ray.And we came up with this little combo thing.
They wanted us to do some little funny thing.And the next day I get offered the job. I'm
like, this is brilliant. So it's a six weekcontract. But now I've learned something. I've
learned something from this Christmas show ofgoing, just because you get one job. It don't

(26:07):
mean the next one's gonna come. So I get thisand I'm thinking, right, who else can I talk
to? Who do I need to negotiate like that, likenetwork with and just keep chatting to people
and seeing stuff. So I'm still talking to thedirector back at the Cinderella show that I've
done. They tell me about another company. SoI emailed them my stuff while I'm doing this
tour. And I never knew about theater and education.Let me tell anyone who's listening, theater

(26:30):
and education is where you will learn to actand hold an audience. The reason I say this
is because you will go in some places wheresome of them secondary schools, them kids don't
care about you. They will tell you that it'srubbish. They'll tell you that it's not on
it. They will say some fancy four letter swearwords at you and you have to hold them, whether
that's through a gripping performance that'sreal, that relates to them, whether it's comedy.

(26:53):
And I learned very quickly to go, you know what,Ash, cut your teeth on it. It was like every
job I was getting paid for was a different partof an apprenticeship for me. And I was learning
different modules on the job. So I I didn'teven realize for me, even talking to you now,
God was putting me through drama school in adifferent way of going, yeah, I understand
you're afraid of pain, so I'm gonna pay youto get you where I need you to be. I'm gonna

(27:15):
do that. I'm gonna make ways for you to getit. It's not gonna be easy. I'm not gonna put
you at the top without you having the rightfoundation and being humble and appreciating
the graft and the climb. So I do this show,this comedy tour about knife crime, and I audition
for another company, and I get that job. Sonow I finish one show, I have a week off, and

(27:38):
I start another six week thing. So as I'm doingthat, I'm pushing now, I'm still chatting to
other people. I'm going here, going there, runningother projects still, doing presenting gigs.
I start working with my double act partner,we're pushing stuff, something like that. I'm
starting to get momentum, I'm starting to getmomentum here. I finished this second tour
with, they're called Big Fish Theater at thetime. So I finished that second TIU tour, and

(28:01):
I'm thinking, I know theater and education isn'twhere I wanna be. But I'm learning a lot. It's
tiring, it's grueling. You have to put up theset yourself every show, then do the performance.
It's not West End, you know? It's not the, I'vebeen, I've done West End. It's not the glitz
and glam. It's not beautiful TV. It's not you'reon a movie set and then, like you said, I've
got frequent flying miles. But let me tell younow, I had frequent foot miles before I had

(28:24):
that, man. I was, you know what I mean? Walking,commuting, lifting, carrying, you know, I put
in the work. I've done the hours. You was doing10,000 steps a day. Listen, before it was a
thing. Before it was a thing of, you know, Imean, the seed had to go so far down the ground
to make sure those roots were there and thatI wasn't going to come unstuck because it's

(28:45):
a fickle industry as well, you know, so whenI'm looking back and talking to you, I'm realizing
that I needed to have that grounding to be incertain positions and have gratitude, but also
advocate for others, support others, help themas they're coming up. So anyway, I am. I got
to a place where there was no work coming in,there was no acting work coming in. So I'm

(29:06):
like, right, what's your other string that youcan flex? Okay, boom, teaching work, I dance
as well. So I start chatting to some people,there's someone that I know from the kind of
festival circuit, community festivals who alsoknows arts organization. I applied to work
at this arts organization and I start teachingtheir summer projects. Because obviously in
the summer holidays, everybody break up. andeverybody want their children in something,

(29:30):
all the parents want their children doing something.So there's organizations out there that get
funding to run performing arts projects. Soyou're working on your craft, you're helping
the young people, which was important to mebecause I got so many projects growing up for
free. Again, I wasn't in a place where I couldafford to go to the Italia Contes. So the little
projects really helped me. So I did one of thosejobs and now I'm making about 450 a week. So

(29:56):
I'm like, what? You know what I mean? I'm like,what? What? I've gone from 325 to 450. I'm
like, yeah, man, I'm doing this. I'm doing thisthing. And you know, summer's fast approaching
is coming towards the end. And I'm thinking,man, I don't know what's going to happen. And
I get asked, because people know about me, getasked to go and teach some workshops at school.

(30:18):
And I think, brilliant, I'm going to go teachthese workshops at school. So I'm just, my
whole goal is to go, I need to get on a jobwhere I am in the same place as people that
come out of drama school that I'm viewed inthe same way. It hasn't happened yet. I'm doing
everything else. And my friend calls me, mydouble app partner, and goes, look, he's proper

(30:39):
cockney. He's half St. Lucian, half St. Barberian,but he's proper cockney. He's like, Ash, mate,
I just got in for an audition, mate. Listen,it's not my kind of thing, mate. I think you
should go down there and just try it out, mate.I think, like, when we do all this dancing
and rapping thing, it's not me. It's not me,mate. You go for it, all right? I'm like, where
is it? It's like, yeah, it's a half moon youngpeople's theatre. in Limeass, go down there.
So I'm teaching these workshops. I leave, again,I remember these are the days where you ain't

(31:05):
got contactless and whatever, you know. I thinkOyster cards are just a thing. Oyster cards,
there's no contactless, there's no contactlesscards, all of that. You ain't got things on
your phone. So I remember just like gettingon a train down there and I remember tapping
out and not having enough money to get backand I didn't have my wallet on me. So remember
that. If you have an audition the same way ifyou have a job interview. you can't tell me

(31:28):
you've got a job interview and then I can justturn up and go, I want to be interviewed as
well for the job. There's a process. So gettingthere is half the journey guys. Getting there
is half the journey and trying to get that dooropen to be seen. So I buzzed, I buzzed, I kept
to this theatre and I buzzed man and I thoughtit was going through my head. Now I'm about
19, yeah, this is 2006 people and this lovelywoman just speaks on intercom, Hi, I heard

(31:58):
you're having auditions today and I just wantto know if there's an opportunity if I could
audition. I'm not down for it, but I'm justbeing really honest. I would really love to
audition for a role. So she went, okay, comein. Yeah, she speaks to me. These days you'd
have your CV printed out, man. Part of thispodcast right now is making me feel like I'm
old, just so you know, because I've said thesedays a lot, you know? The truth is the truth.

(32:19):
These days, you know, like nowadays people'sInstagram and TikTok is their CV, but these
days you have your CV printed out. all yourcredits as a performer and your picture. So
I had one on me, by the grace of God, I hadone on me. I gave it to the woman and she went,
okay, I'll just go and speak to them. So shegoes upstairs. I'm getting near to the end
of this story. She goes upstairs, she chatsto them. I didn't know at the time, but the

(32:43):
director of the show and the artistic directorof the theater, they look at my CV, they go,
okay, yeah, it looks quite good. I don't knowwhy we haven't seen him. The reason why they
haven't seen me is one of the things you getto do when you go drama school is you do three
years and at the end of it there's a showcaseand all agents come along and agents are the
people that help get you auditions and you luckand most people sign for an agent. I have no

(33:07):
agent. I've got no agent. I'm doing this alloff my own back and just talking to people
that I know and just asking people for opportunities.So that's a very important part of the story,
you know, because my friend who told me aboutthis audition had an agent. So I'm sitting
um, waiting and before this woman went up, shehad given me some scripture and just look at

(33:30):
the scripts just in case so you can have a bitof a look at the scenes. And so I'm sitting
there looking for it. It's all this rap stuffand everything. I'm like, okay, cool. And they
want me to do this. And this is a show calledlocked in and it's about a pirate radio station.
And this is a young MC who's just really proudand um, yeah, where's his, where's his faith
on his chest? Like he's got his big chain. I'mjust remembering the descriptions of a cross

(33:54):
and everything. He's very just at the forefront,but he's East London as well, which I loved
because I'm in East London or something like,OK, cool. So this woman comes down and goes,
yeah, they're going to see you in a minute.So just get yourself ready. I was like, cool.
And I go in this room and the director says,oh, I don't know how we missed you. I'm Angela.

(34:15):
This is Chris. We'd like to see you do thisscene. And there's a bit of a scene and then
he goes into this rap. And what was the rap?Can I remember the rap? His whole thing is
he has a fantasy about being at the mobo's andhe's like, I'm at the mobo's and I'm doing
my speech, the single best album got an awardfor each with my best garms on and I'm looking
pretty nifty, I'm blinging my charms on. I'mfat at then 50. I'm just throwing all my whole

(34:38):
energy in the room. I'm dancing, I'm vibing,I'm in their face. Like, it's just like, if
he's having a fantasy, I'm thinking he's thestar. He's the winner. So I finished my audition.
They're looking at me blank faced, you know,when someone's jaw just opens, dropped, eyes
are wide in shock. And I'm just like, oh. Gosh,what have you done, Ashley? You mash yourself

(34:58):
up because this is the first opportunity todo a show that's gonna tour the UK, it's going
to theaters, you know, it's going around London,it's lots of other places, I'm thinking this
is gonna be great for me. And then the littleboy in me is like, do you need me to do anything
else? Do you need me to dance? I can dance ifyou want. You're not trying to save the audition.
And I went, no, it's fine, that's all. And Iwent, okay. So I leave. I say to the woman

(35:26):
who did that all for me, I said, thank you somuch for giving me the opportunity. And then
I remembered obviously when I came out, I didn'thave enough money to get on the train. So I
was like, I'll get the bus. I didn't have enoughmoney to get on the bus. Oh, I used the card.
Yeah, because I'd forgotten my wallet that morning.So I walked from Limehouse to Cannon Town.

(35:49):
You do like these steps. I mean, I'm peak fitness19.
I remember as I was, I mean, it was about, Ithink about an hour or something of walking.
And I remember as I got on the street to myfamily home, my phone rang and I didn't know
the number. And I answered the phone and said,hello. And he said, hi Ashley, it's Amy from

(36:12):
Half Moon, who was the woman who let me in.And she said, they'd like to offer you the
job. They'd like to offer you the part. I waslike, what? Nah, like I'm like, I've already
messed this up. Now this is in comparison tome thinking I smashed my audition for drama
school, I'm in. And in this room I was like,no, I've messed this up. I saw their faces,

(36:33):
I've not done a good job. I went, are you serious?Me? She went, yeah, they wanna offer you the
part of Blaze in Locked In. I went, okay. Shewent, do you need to talk to anyone, your agent?
I said, no, yes, I have it. Give me the job.Where do I sign? Where do I sign? Yeah, I didn't
know what the money was. I didn't know whatI knew it was a UK tour, a hip hop drama. And

(36:55):
I'm gonna fast forward a little bit to thenwhen we go in rehearsals. So we get into rehearsals,
it's three of us in the show. There's threethings I want people to know about this show.
And on the first day, they say you have to buildthe set and take it down when we tour still.
And we're gonna be going to some schools. I'vejust spent part of my time. building and taking

(37:16):
down sets and going to schools and doing performances.Not fazed by that, but I'm going to go to theaters
as well. I've got into the theater while I'vebroken a dead gate. Out of the three of us
in the show, there's one female who's been inthe industry for a few years and the other
guy, this is his first professional contractand he's just finished drama school. And guess

(37:36):
what drama school he just graduated from? Centralschool, speech and drama. The legend that is
Kim Hardy. I hope you're well, mate.
That hit me like, whoa, I've worked so hardin a year. He's obviously spent three years
at drama school and we've come to the same place.And for me, it wasn't about time or space or

(38:01):
age. It was just about the stage. We were bothat that stage in our career to be in this show.
And we worked so well together. And for me,it was so important that happened. Also the
director, Angela Michaels, who's become my theatermom. who, goodness gracious, I don't know how
many shows she's cast me in. And then also,she's directed some of my work as a writer

(38:21):
as well. But when I was sitting, obviously Idon't have an agent and that's why you didn't
find me and I'm not on a thing called Spotlightthat I didn't know about, which is like a casting
directive for performers. She helped me. Shegoes, well, you've got to write to a few agents,
write to these guys' agents, whoever these actorsare, if I wrote to their agents. And she said,
oh, there's an agent who's I know who's justgone into it for about a year. he might take

(38:44):
you on. So I wrote to him, he came to the showand he signed me. And yeah, I did that contract
for 10 weeks. I didn't really do anything afterwards.I had a few little gigs in between, like between
November and December, November, December, January.And then I was just going to auditions, man.
I was going to auditions. I was in the place,in the space. And my first TV job I booked

(39:11):
and it was EastEnders. I got two episodes ofEastEnders and like I say, there's a lot of
times that I've left out where I wasn't workingand just trying to get my mind right and gymming
or going and training at dance or just goingdown to events and just chatting to people
and hanging out at shows and trying to get freetickets for things and doing stuff like me

(39:34):
and my double act partner, we was at a showat Hackney Empire, man, and we just kind of
bullied our way backstage, you know, and justsaid, look, man, you guys got free time on
the stage, you let us do a comedy set. And wedid that and we took that opportunity and it
could have been a big loss, but we took thatopportunity and a producer, programmer from
Hackney Empire saw us and then we started gettingopportunities at Hackney Empire as well. But

(39:59):
I guess that's the story about not getting intodrama school, that from around about February
2005, all the way through to November 2006.I didn't get into somewhere, was lost, was
a bit confused, just pushed for everything Icould do, find opportunities. Some days, yeah,

(40:22):
I was hanging out at friends houses to justwhatever clock in the morning because I just
didn't know what I was doing with my life. Butwithin the space of 18 months, I got myself
in a production that got me an agent, whichis what I wanted, and worked with someone who'd
been at Central. And we both had different approaches,but man, we both... really committed and delivered

(40:43):
strong, believable performances as actors. Andso, yeah, that taught me that. Sometimes the
loss ain't the loss, you know. Sometimes theknow is a blessing, you know. I heard Steve
Harvey say something a few months ago. He saidsometimes the breakup is in the blessing. Sometimes

(41:03):
the rejection is the blessing of going, thisain't your path. This is where I need you to
go. So Yeah, I've talked a lot, but that's whathappened. It was intriguing to be fair. There's
a lot to unpacking what you've just said. AndI thank you so much for sharing as eloquently
as you did and really painting a very vividpicture. You being so bullish in your earlier

(41:29):
years. And I get that because if everyone cankind of understand where I'm coming from, when
I say this, when you're younger, you could breakyour arm in the morning and by the afternoon
you're completely healed up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Nowadays, depending on your age, you can stomp
your toe three months later, you're still hurting.So that's where I'm coming from. So I understand
the sense of invincibility that you're the reincarnationof Superman. You're coming with it. You can

(41:53):
do this, you can do that. It's amazing. So goingfrom that to being messed this up. Am I right
in saying that there was a period of time thatjust kind of eroded your confidence that made
you feel, oh, something's not working. So asmuch as I think I'm good, clearly I ain't that

(42:19):
guy. How did you deal with that? Especiallywhen you told your mom, give me a year, I'm
going to do this. So you're still kind of
you weren't even feeling yourself like that.And that must've been a bit of a juggling that's
going from, I've got this mom, just leave me.I've got this to.

(42:45):
that I don't know how to connect these dots.What was the thought process and how did you
manage that? I think if I'm being honest andit's unpacking that I'm doing in my adult life
as well is that I've always had a challengearound not feeling like I'm wanted, you know?
And that I think it, no, not I think, I know,and I've got to be honest with myself and the

(43:10):
world, that comes from, you know, a single parentfamily. and that experience of not having a
father that was present, you know, really, definitely.And it's become more apparent becoming a father
myself. So I had a lot of fear. And if I'm honest,I didn't deal with it. I didn't deal with it.

(43:32):
The person who dealt with it was my sister,Lydia. She is the most inspirational person
in my life. She's the strongest person I know.anything I was going for she's like come on
Ash you can do it come on Ash this is like thisis what you're meant to do this is you don't
worry about it I've got you remember you cando this and you can and you remember that move

(43:56):
the audience really like when you do that moveand it's really interesting but my whole life
I've always had incredible women around me thatare that are my spine you know my mum my sister
both my sisters my aunt my wife you know I justhave them and it really stemmed from her of

(44:17):
going, yeah, you can do this. And it's crazybecause we had a dance group and stuff and
I'd be at the front saying, yeah, we can dothis and do that. But really, I felt empowered
by her power.

(44:43):
You know, she saw me in ways that I never sawmyself. Where I am now in my life is a shock
to me, so I'm a shock to her. She's like, youstill got further to go. It's greatness in
you. And so for me, it's about your environment,who you surround yourself with, you know? And

(45:05):
some people might think, oh, you know, you needall the budget and oh, if you have parents
that can... send you to this fancy place orgive you this technology and have a green screen
and give you, I don't know, and make DenzelWashington your drama teacher, then you're
going to be fine. Don't get me wrong, thosethings are going to help, but if someone can't
act, they can't act and not even Denzel canhelp you. But having a circle around you that

(45:28):
see you, that keep you humble, but empower youand push you. My sister would lift me up, but
keep me grounded. It's really difficult to explain.It gets me emotional thinking about it because
a lot of who I am today I owe to her, you know,and there was no mistakes in God putting me

(45:52):
and her through the same parents. There's noGod is it now you two got to come from the
same womb. So yeah, it was definitely her thewhole way like through sixth form because she
was the year above me. There's 18 months betweenus, so she's 18 months older than me. So she
was the year above me at sixth form. And thenwhen I was trying my stuff. She was always
there, always there, coming to see staff supportingthings. Just, yeah, man. I'm going off on one

(46:19):
because of how much love I have for her, butit was her. And when I think about it, yeah,
it's her, and it's always gonna be her. There'sno shame in giving her flowers while she's
still living. I'm very much a firm believer,give people flowers while they're living rather
than their tombstone. That's how my mom taughtme a long time ago, and I stand by it. And

(46:39):
it's lovely to hear that you have someone whohas been your cheerleader, has been your inspiration,
has been your conscience, has just brought youout of the darkness sometimes to say, it's
not forever, it's a season, come and do this.Because I know a lot of us suffer with imposter

(46:59):
syndrome, rightly or wrongly. And I appreciateyour honesty saying about, you didn't feel
it, you wasn't there, you didn't wanna dealwith it. But then when the times were quiet,
when no one was around and you had that quiettime, it was still, how did you deal with those
thoughts that were in your head when thingsweren't going right?

(47:26):
Gosh, man, a lot of lying to myself, a lot oflying to myself, a lot of beating myself up.
I think I sat between both of them lying tomyself, like, nah, they don't know what they're
talking about. I got this. and then the otherside was beating myself up. I remember a time
that, I mean, I think my whole career is notgetting into drama school. You know, my whole
career is turning one big L into a W. And Iremember a time where I didn't have any work

(47:50):
for months and I talk about this because I thinkit's coming into the question you've asked.
And it was the first time I had to apply forjust, I guess, a normal job, a muggle job,
whatever you want to call it, PAYE. And I rememberwriting this application man for to be an events
manager for the fire service. I mean me an eventsmanager for the fire service. And I wrote this

(48:12):
application like typing on the Mac in tearsman. I was crying, I was bawling like why like
why can't I just be who I want to be? Why can'tI just do what I want to do? And I remember
praying and asking God for guidance and youknow I am. I just started to give it to God.

(48:35):
So I give it to God as much as I could and letgo and let God and be around positive people.
As I said, I was hanging around a lot of differentplaces. I started doing a lot of workshops
and stuff, which a lot of jobs that our workactors do. So I started to connect with older
actors who then just helped me. And that wasone of the things of going sometimes all the

(49:02):
answers are around us, you know, in the senseof we don't have to just talk to our peers,
talk to people who have been there before you'vebeen in that position, talk to actors that
you've seen on the TV but now they're doinga little improv show or a little forum theatre
show in a school with you. Why are they doingthat? Because the industry isn't, it's not
rewarding in the sense of, okay, you've beenin this game 10 years, I'm going to hook you

(49:24):
up. It doesn't work like that. And so thosetimes of darkness, the good people, the good
environments helped, and learning to be honestwith people that I could trust. And I say that
importantly, because not everyone who is aroundyou is for you. Some people are around you

(49:46):
when you're winning and you're flying and you'rekilling it on stage or screen or whatever you're
doing in your industry. I use mine as referencepoints, but knowing the people that you can
call up or kick it with and just go, thingsare not great right now. And that's what I
had to start doing. because when you put that,when you can hold that negative energy in you,

(50:08):
it's like poison, it spreads. And then thatcomes out. Because there was times when I was
going to auditions and I was just getting therefor an attitude because it's like, I don't
want to do this. I don't want to go out forthis role. I don't want to be someone who's
stabbing someone. I don't want to be someonewho's getting shot. I've got into this industry
to be something else, to break the stereotypeof a young black boy. So what are you, since
I'm getting there VEX. But really, to learnin this... No, don't go there at all. Say,

(50:33):
no, I'm sorry, that's not for me. Those arethe things that really helped me and I'm still
learning, man. It's, it's emotional to thinkabout, you know. I find that interesting that
that's how you feel. I like the fact that youfeel that way because I think too many times

(50:54):
we don't look back. The whole phrase of beingwoke, I feel has negative connotations associated
with it. And it's not meant to be I'm puttingother people down. It's saying there was a
version of me that just wasn't, wasn't comprehendingthe bigger picture. I'm not there yet, but
I can see more than I can see right in frontof me. And all of a sudden, when you realize

(51:15):
that whatever you do has ripple effects, that'swhen you're like, yo, okay, I can see, I need
to, I need to behave myself and act accordingly.Like all my actions have consequences. I don't
know how to phrase this, but for those that,don't necessarily have a faith of any description
or don't believe in a deity, that's your business,got no problem with it, live your life how

(51:36):
you need to. But I think there's something veryimportant that you've mentioned and that's
about how you say you gave it to God and justlet go. And I think it's important that sometimes
we let go of whatever's weighing us down, theexpectations, the reality that we're hoping
to achieve in the way we want to achieve itand say, okay, success cannot only be achieved

(51:59):
in one way. There's multiple ways in which successcan be achieved. If success was a number, that
number was 10, you're not just going to go 5plus 5, boom, that's 10. You can go 9 plus
1, you can go 11 minus 1, you can do 100 minus90. You can play around with it three times
three plus one. I don't care, whatever mathsyou need to do to get to that number, that's
how you're going to get to it, because successcomes and can't, not can'ts or cannots. So

(52:23):
sometimes you need to let go of whatever yourexpectations are just to be able. to have that
creative freedom to see that things are notgoing to be linear like that. The only thing
really linear in life is your age. You're goingone way and that's yeah. And the pressure that's
taken off your shoulders from not being thatway. That's great to have passion. It's great

(52:44):
to have a drive, have a clear idea of whereyou want to achieve what you want to achieve
or where you want to be at a certain age, butsomewhat be flexible with it because it kind
of helps you to navigate a space as I've heardyou say. I will answer the question though.
How did you know from such a young age, I knowyou mentioned your drama teacher, but how did

(53:06):
you know that is what you want? Cause I tellyou this, my school was rubbish. My career
guidance office was closed on a regular, I rememberwalking past that, had a glass window door
and it was locked with a whole heap of booksin it. I go in there a couple of times, picked
up one book. I don't even know what the bookwas about, maybe architecture and I realized
I can't even drive a ruler, so no joy for me.So. you had that passion, that desire to do

(53:30):
this. But then when you got into that and youtook it seriously because you was trying to
get into that school and then you found outit's gonna be, well, you're one of a black
boy. How did that also make you feel? I knowit's a two-part question, but I just think
it's important because I did want to draw referenceto it, but obviously there's a lot of stuff
in between that. And I just want to bring itback to sort of- Not bad, sorry. No, no, it's

(53:52):
fine. But I want to go back to it because Ithink the passion is important because unfortunately-
A lot of people can say black boys don't havea lot of passion. Yeah, we do. In my opinion,
we're just misinterpreted being aggressive orbeing angry. It's not that we're passionate,
but people just have whatever they want to puton us. But then when you're there, you're slaying

(54:13):
it, you're doing your bit. And it's like, it'sgoing to be you and one other black boy. How
do you know I'm not even there? And then thereyou go. You're potentially ticking a box. How
did you feel having that passion? How did itfeel being in that place? And then how do you
feel when you're potentially ticking a box?Um, my passion has always been there from about
the age of eight when I saw Rumakoi and I'mseeing Marcus Powell and Jeff Amar doing incredible

(54:36):
sketching and my sister and I used to just recreateit. So I just always knew that's what I wanted
to do. I always knew that's what I'm supposedto do. I literally and more and more looking
like God gave me this gift and this is whatI'm supposed to do. I believe that I'm supposed
to connect with people through my talent thatmay not know him and somehow introduce him
to him. That's what I think I'm supposed todo. Hopefully he'll tell me in my gut if I'm

(55:00):
wrong. Man, getting in that room and my dramateacher being proven right and she wasn't trying
to mess me up, she was being honest and genuinewith me and she was her husband which is why
I still have a friendship with her. But it hurtbro, it hurt because also as well, it made

(55:25):
me feel like that meant that out of those 30,they could pick 20 seconds. I, it was about
maybe 25 people were Caucasian. And then itwas someone who's from Spain, someone who was
Oriental, then there's myself and Ollie, sosomeone else, like I can't remember who, but
it was about that. So for me, it meant, wellthen actually, does that mean, and I don't

(55:47):
think, there might've been one black girl, maybe.I can't remember, I can't say yes or no, but
anyway, I'm thinking to myself now. So doesthat mean that when I went through audition
process I was just being compared to every otherblack guy. So it means are we in a category
of our own? Not a league, not a league of ourown, a category of our own. So that hurts.

(56:12):
And when I really unpick it talking to you thenI'm thinking well and this is where you can
get mashed up. Where you go well mentally arewe that far from being enslaved because you're
still pitting us against each other just ina different format, just in a different context.
I don't think it at that time but what reallyhurt was like it's just it's gonna be me or
him Why can't it be both of us? Because Oli,he's a very successful actor now as well Both

(56:39):
of us are in different ways You know we seeeach other, we say hello, we show love, it's
all good now One of us may have quit But bothof us could have been on that course Because
I know there were other people who auditionedwho probably got in That weren't as strong
as either of us So why was there place? Onepoint in mine. So that hurts, man. It hurts

(57:03):
to be doing things in a world where you knowthat the fact that you are black sets you back
a few steps, it does. It's like you're startinga deficit. Come on. You know, if I'm running
200, well, obviously there's that study of themrunning the race, you know, and you've got
to step back if you do this, if there's that.And that's exactly what it is. It's like I

(57:25):
can be at the starting line for this 100 meterrace, but actually I'm another 50 meters behind
everyone. So I've got around 150. How am I gonnawin? How do I have a fair chance? I didn't
have a fair shot. Didn't like the variablesand the odds were stacked against myself and
Ollie. Everyone should have had the same chance.We're taking 16 on this course. Everyone should
have that. Let's take the best 16. No, oh, whoa,we've got our black actor ticked. Okay, boom,

(57:50):
he's on. Yeah, and also it means that you potentiallywould have had someone else that looked like
you, that could have related to you. doing workwith you, which other people would have had
potentially. Yep. But you're just saying, well,it's either you or the other guy. So yeah,
like we could be showing versatility. And forme, and if I'm honest, that's the reason why

(58:12):
I didn't apply back for Central. When my dramateacher said, yeah, you're going to go back
to the next, no, it's not just because you didn'twant me, it's that was your perception. Now
I don't know what's going on with Central now.Central School of Speech and Drama has changed
a lot. I know the head of drama is, the headof the school is Josette Bushel-Mingo, who

(58:33):
directed me in a musical a few years ago. Soit's funny how things swings around about us
and how the world goes. Incredible, incredible,talented black female who's just great at what
she does. But for me, I was, I'm not going backthere. I don't want to be there. Because what's

(58:54):
the point? What am I going to go back and be?to another two of us again, or maybe three
black boys this time, but what are you saying?And what are you saying about me is that I
can only go up for roles that are specificallyfor black actors or black, no, I should just
be going up for parts.

(59:23):
So yeah, it affects me man. And I'm sorry tohear that because your confidence was so high
that there was no end to it. But then to feelthat, yo, I've gone from 5,000 down to 30.
I'm doing this to realize, no, how many blackmen were there? That's the number you dwindled

(59:47):
down by, opposed to 5,000. And sometimes thatcan mess with your mentor and a lot of people
may not appreciate that, but it is so hard whenit comes to racism or injustice through people
being different. It's like trying to staplejelly to a wall. It's not an easy feat. You
kind of have to see the science behind it, justlike if someone's in domestic violence. You

(01:00:11):
don't just say, Oh, cause they've got a blackeye and they said they walked to the door.
That's domestic violence. There's a whole seriesof what they say, their behavior, what they
have access to, what they don't have accessto, what conversations have been had with the
other half and so forth. I'd have same withracism in terms of what's being said. How has
it been said? The frequency of being said, howthey, how they judge what comments are being
made in, you know, in jest supposedly. And forsomeone like yourself who, and I'm going to

(01:00:37):
say success is subjective because it is. butyou've made a success out of what you wanted
to do. Yet you found that from an early timein your career, that things weren't gonna be
easy for you, but you didn't kind of let thatget on top of you, which is fantastic. A lot
of people I would like to think should takecourage from that, and hopefully one day, if

(01:01:03):
it is what you wanna do, you'll be able to beput on, I already know you put on show, I know
you do your bit. And people like Lin-Manuel,what he's done. Like everyone you see, I wanna
be that, you know, I'm gonna be the next Broadwayshow. And everyone's like, no, Hamilton. Like
that is the benchmark. And even when he cameover here with it, people, I went and saw Hamilton,
I don't care. I was singing every lyric to everysong because my missus paid top bills for that

(01:01:27):
for Christmas for me, right? And I'd listenedto that thing maybe 50 times before I even
got there because I knew it from back when itcame out in America. Bangin', bangin'. But...
the inclusivity of it where it's got every denominationin there representing. I don't think I can
understand how many doors are open for peopleto get work in that field where they previously

(01:01:52):
wasn't necessarily allowed to because they'rebeing pitted against other people that look
like them and will fulfill the quota. I justlove that for people to. to create change,
to change the narrative, to challenge what'sgone on before. I will ask this question, and
I think I'm interested to understand where youwas at and how you dealt with it. What would

(01:02:16):
you say was the worst point in that year andhow did you deal with it? Oh, that's a good
question. Worst point in that year. I don'tknow who it was.
Was it not getting into drama school? It waseither that or not getting any future work

(01:02:41):
with MTV Bass. It was one of those. I think,I guess that feeling, both of them are very
similar, but that feeling of being on that high,knowing that, yeah, you're so close, and then
it's like something being pulled out, it's likea part being pulled out of me. It was like
the rejection from drama school and then notgetting any future work with MTV Bass after

(01:03:03):
the gig. as it being my first presenting gigfor a well-known TV company, it felt like they
had pulled out a part of me that I thought wasjust mine and then threw it in the bin. And
so slowly you have to rebuild and it's one dayat a time. Sometimes, sometimes it was one

(01:03:25):
hour at a time. Sometimes it was one minuteat a time, if I'm being honest. I remember
one day I didn't go anywhere and just watchsome, um, I don't know what it was. It was
like, I think it's called the Sarah Jane Adventures,which was like a spin-off of Doctor Who. Now,
I don't know if it really watched Doctor Who,but for some reason, this woman was on the
TV. I was just channel hopping and I just gotglued and I didn't wanna do anything else apart

(01:03:49):
from be immersed in that world. And I'm gonnabe honest, some days I had to just switch off
and just allow myself to be transported andenjoy what I do. I remember having a conversation
with creative director who I used to do oddlittle like little small presenting gigs for.
And I went to meet him one day, he said, I'llget you lunch. And he said to me, you're right.

(01:04:13):
I was like, yeah. And this was in that year.I completely forgot this. Good question, man.
And I'm not a crier. And I started crying. Idon't usually cry in front of people. And I
cried, cried. And I was just like, what is goingon? Like what is happening with me? And he,
he just said, look, Remember, this is somethingyou enjoyed. This was a hobby. This is something

(01:04:35):
you loved. And then what happens is you're startingto get paid for it and or you're getting opportunities
and you're giving that power to people. Butunderstand that whether you're being paid or
not, whether you're in a drama school or not,you can still be creative. That is what you
own. And so that was something I kept with me.And it's in my core, even now when I'm out

(01:04:59):
of work. it happens, you go through my Instagramand you'll see that I'm just putting up content
because I feel like I want to make this thingand I can't and I don't want any I don't care
if no one's going to pay me to do it. I justwant to make it I'm going to put it out because
I need to stay creatively fit and that's whatI realized. I'd go in a gym and be physically
fit you know I would go to dance and be a certainlevel of fitness but what I wasn't doing was

(01:05:21):
keeping myself creatively fit and so that showedme that actually Ash stay on the creative treadmill.
It's a muscle. Yeah, exactly. And if you stayready, you don't have to get ready. I always
find that because I guess I buried my creativityafter a number of years at my corporate job.
And when things went south for me, they went,they tanked because I had nothing as an outlet

(01:05:43):
and I'd lost everything. And I find as a creative,the more I give, the more I get. Yes. It's
all like I can't sit on an idea and expect thatto bang because of that. no, I need to release
this, I need to get it out of my system. Andthen some people, I guess people are not maybe
in the creative space will be that, Oh, butyou must monetize that. You must do that for

(01:06:07):
me. So I need to get out of my system becausewhile I get out of my system, I'm not going
to sit on it. I've done it. It's over there.I've moved on to the next thing. And eventually
I'm going to refine whatever I'm going to do.That's going to be a big thing in my opinion,
but it's going to be a combination of variousdifferent projects I've done in the past, but
it's going to be refined version of it where.They'll go, oh, that was really good. Yeah,

(01:06:29):
but this is more functional. This is that moreuser friendly. Prime example of this podcast,
I can use this podcast in a social setting.I can use it in a corporate setting. I can
use it pretty much to educate younger ones comingup to know what life was gonna come their way.
And that's through years of thinking about itand where I wanted to go with it. And thankfully
I have people like yourself and other gueststhat come on and share what they share and.

(01:06:53):
it just resonates with people, it's real peopletalking about their real situations. And I
think that is absolutely important in this time.What I will ask you is, if you could go back
in time to your lowest point or the hardesttime, and I know you mentioned someone else
said something to you, but what would you haveto say, based on what you know now, to the

(01:07:15):
younger version of yourself, to kind of encourageyou to push through that hard time? Like, What
would you have to say to yourself to encourageyourself to say, don't, don't pump the brakes
right now. Keep going. Um, actually no matterwhat you think and feel, God is always with
you, lean on him. Um, and I'd also tell them.You are exactly where you need to be right

(01:07:43):
now. It may not feel like it, but you are exactlywhere you need to be right now to become who
you need to become. So you said that very eloquently,truthfully, would the younger Ashley actually
listen to you or would he be saying, you'rejust chatting like- He'd listen to the God
bit. Okay. But he would be like, no, what doyou mean I'm exactly what I need to be to become

(01:08:08):
who I am? You know, what do you know? You know,I need to be there. That's why I can see my,
I should be there. Why am I not there with themman? Why them man up there? Why has this man
come out after me and got this? Why has thisman just done two jobs a night, he's got this
and he's working at this theater and on thisTV show but I'm getting nothing. That's what
the younger Ashley would be saying. And sometimesthis Ashley still says it. How would you have

(01:08:32):
to present that information in order for theyounger version of yourself to hear it, to
receive it and to act? based off that information.
So you can either keep watching them peopleand complaining, or you can fix up and do something

(01:08:54):
about it. What are you gonna do? Would thatbe an intimate setting where it's just you
and them, or you're out there doing something,or? Yeah, 100. No, 100, be an intimate setting.
I know me. I thrive on challenge, man. That'sone thing that hasn't changed about me. I thrive
on challenge. You know, I love achieving things.I love getting 100%. You know, I would rather

(01:09:20):
get 85% on a test than 99 because 99 would vexme because it means you should have got 100.
You just didn't pay attention. Yeah, exactly.It's just that one time. So yeah, I think,
I think that's what it would be. And, um, andlooking back, I was exactly what I needed to
be to become who I needed to become and to havethe network that I have, man, the, the variety

(01:09:42):
of people I have in my life is just incredibleand it's still a struggle. Yeah, I am. I am.
Yes, I have I have made success. I have I becauseI'm making it work and I'm you know, paying
my mortgage and my children and supporting mywife and going on holidays and stuff from what
I earned in my business in this business. ButI'm a strong man. Still a struggle. Still a

(01:10:13):
graft and I mean,
you're just living the life you wanted to youmay not know on the back end of it But here
you are thriving in it and doing what you needto do What I will ask you And I know you mentioned
it before but just to formalize it if you wouldsay It was originally an L Looking back in

(01:10:35):
hindsight what you're calling that Um, i'm callingit a no no, which means next opportunity nice.
Yeah, so that's what I call There's no thereare no nos in life No, it's just me next opportunity
or new opportunity, whatever you want to seeas, you know what I mean? To be fair, I've
heard a few people say, they said they got that,this is a false very creative and I think you'll

(01:11:00):
appreciate. They said that L, they turn it tothe side and it becomes a tick. Nice. And I
like that because it's all about perception.It's all about perception. I come up with all
this stuff when I'm talking and I know it'snot me, I know it's coming from somewhere else.
And It was a matter of when you're in a situation,in my opinion, as it stands right now, my mindset

(01:11:25):
is, if you stop where you are right now andhow you're feeling, it will be a loss. But
if you keep putting one foot in front of theother and collect another two letters, it becomes
a lesson. And that for me, keeps me going. Becauseright here and right now, it's a loss if I
stop. But if I keep going and collect two moreletters, turns into a lesson. Yeah, I like

(01:11:47):
that, man. And that I think we should take heedand encourage one another to know that we're
not the only one going through this situation.Now, right now is not gonna be forever. Absolutely.
What I'm gonna do, because I'm conscious oftime, Ashley has actually agreed to do his
second L on another episode. But before we dothat, we're gonna wrap up and ask him to spend

(01:12:09):
the next two minutes promoting anything andeverything he's got going on, how people can
reach him because he's that guy. Don't get wrong,you can reach out to him, he may not get back
to you. But I'll take it personally. He splithimself into five, several versions of himself.
The PlayStation one ain't getting back to youat all. They got places of free games to catch
up on. But yeah, the floor is yours, my friend.Thank you. Yes. As I said, my name's Ashley

(01:12:33):
Joseph. If you want to follow me on socialsis at sir underscore Ashley J, which is A S
H L E Y J that's across Instagram, Twitter,and the world of Facebook for the old people.
Um, older, sorry for the older people, the finewine people, the fine wine people. Currently
you can catch me in episodes of Jojo and Grandwhere I've voiced the role of Jared, which

(01:12:59):
is animated series on CBB, which is the firstblack British animated series. You can check
that out on BBC iPlayer. We've won a BAFTA,we've won other awards. It's incredible. Also,
I think by the time this comes out, you'll seeme as a new regular character. in another CBBC
series called Justin's House, where I play anew character in there called Gary. So those

(01:13:21):
episodes are coming out very soon. There's alsoa show I've co-written called Sound Clash that
will be out or may have finished by this time,who knows. And I will be back with a comedy
show before the end of the year. So that's everythingI've got going on. And I'm writing on some
shows, but I can't talk about them. Sorry. Fairenough, people. You want to know? you need
to go follow. Are you on threads yet? No, what's...Oh, nah, nah. What? It would be what's thread.

(01:13:46):
Going to thread, I thought you meant as a person,then I realised it's TH. I was like, no, thread,
no, thread, no, thread. And I'm like... Oh,you talk about old people and here you are.
Yeah. Fred, Fred from down the road. No, I'mnot on threads yet. I just... It's like I'm
not on TikTok. Sometimes it's just too much.It's just too much. Do you know what it is?

(01:14:09):
is I feel like if I live in the social mediaworld, I need to, there's a big part of me
that needs to be in the real world. So there'scertain things I do where I go to shows, I
don't take pictures, I go to concerts, I don'tfilm it. I just need to be present. It's so,
so important. Just being present is important.So I'm not on threads, but Matt, you enjoy

(01:14:30):
threads and I'll just try and find a friendcalled Fred. This guy. Mate, I was just trying
to help you have connections here. That's whatI'm trying to do. Trying to help you make some
friends, you know, don't have you being likeTom on my space. When you signed up and you
have Tom just looking at you going, hey, that'sfunny, man. That is funny. Oh, it's fine. But

(01:14:54):
I greatly appreciate you jumping on and sharingall that you have. Absolute pleasure. You know,
for the first time we spoke in the brief timesin between, it's always been a pleasure. Never
felt like a chore in any way, shape or form.And I just love all that you've achieved, all
that you're gonna achieve. And just the personthat you are, that you're able to take stock
of all the things that you've gone through,be an open and honest you have, not necessarily

(01:15:18):
as a black man, but just as a man, as a person,as Ashley, sharing something that's so intimate
to yourself that you can appreciate the journeyyou've been on. And, you know, big up to Mumsy,
big up to everyone in your life that has hada positive impact on your life and has supported
you from where you have been. to where you arenow and where you're gonna go to. Yeah, yeah.

(01:15:38):
And I just think it's just so important thatpeople understand that no matter how successful
people look and are successful, it's subjective,let's remember. But I liken it to back in the
day, I'm gonna show my age, back in the day,you'd have like Destiny's Child come over and
they got this one song that is the first songthey come out with. And you're like, right,

(01:15:58):
it's got to number one, it's their first single,bro. They've been touring in the States for
the last year, two years, they've gone out anddone a pre, like a mix tape before they even
did this stuff. So you didn't see the groundwork,you only seen them when they reach in the surface.
So when people like you are doing what you'redoing, they might see you or see your names
on the credits of Jojo and Gran or his otherworks you're doing and say, oh, he just stepped

(01:16:20):
out and he's just got everything popping. No,there's layers to this. There's, it's like
an onion vibe here where all the layers hadto get stripped back and trust me, there's
some barlin' going on there. It was a lot. Andhere you are being honest about it, which not
a lot of people do, unfortunately. No, it'simportant. It's important. I just say to anyone,
man, you know, I'm just like some good meat,man. That's just been seasoned. I had to leave

(01:16:44):
to marinate for a few days and I'm in the ovenon slow cook, man. I'm on the microwave career.
You know, I'm slow cooking myself, man. Youknow what I mean? And if you're going to use
that analogy, let's be fair, right? Some peoplelike to get a microwave. Have you ever noticed
that if you're desperate for food, right, youjust have like a microwave meal or something?
That microwave meal could either be done inthe microwave or it can be in the oven. The
oven might take 40 minutes and you're like,I'm hungry now. Yep, everyone wants that two

(01:17:08):
minute 30. But it tastes so much better whenit's in the oven than when you stick it in
the microwave because it feels like some cardboard,something. That's right. You feel like, is
this tofu? I don't remember ordering tofu. What'sthis? When you put it in the oven, it might
take longer but the results are then- Way morefruitful. Indeed. And I'll probably leave on
this point where if you think about losing weightor gaining body mass to look a certain way,

(01:17:29):
Like the time it takes for you to get theremeans you appreciate, certainly in the foundation,
getting the right type of habits so that whenyou achieve that, you can maintain it because
it now becomes a part of who you are. So ifyou're losing weight and you need to sort of
cut certain things that you're diet or moderatewhat you're consuming, that becomes part of
who you are based on your disciplines. If youthen are trying to build body mass and get

(01:17:52):
cut up or however it is, you then also haveto do the same routine, maybe the opposite
way. but you've got to be mindful about whatyou're surrounding yourself with and what you
consume. That is the same with you in your life.What do you consume? Who is who you hanging
around? Like Ashley's mentioned, he's been aroundexperienced actors to learn what they've done,
what they could teach him and how they can gethis name in rooms where he before even enters

(01:18:13):
them. These are the things that I think we shouldbe mindful of. And that's my main takeaway
from this, but definitely if nothing else, people,and there's nothing to say, there's nothing
about a caterpillar that tastes could be a butterfly.Look at your situation now. and I'll guarantee
it's gonna be this way in the next couple ofsign. Guys, girls, however you identify, look
after yourself and I look forward to catchingyou in the next one.

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Ep 51 | Finding Success on Your Own Terms: My Journey Without Drama School feat. Ashley Joseph

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 51 | Finding Success on Your Own Terms: My Journey Without Drama School feat. Ashley Joseph