January 29, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode of Fitness Disrupted 2.0 Tom interviews Karl Sanft, CEO of 24 Hour Fitness.
More than just a corporate executive, Karl's personal fitness journey has given him valuable insights into the essence of gym-goers' experiences. Through the lens of his passion for fitness, he offers valuable perspectives on the evolving needs and aspirations of fitness enthusiasts.
Karl shares his hands-on leadership style and his philosophy on building a positive company culture while ensuring customer satisfaction. He imparts his wisdom on transferring retail principles to the fitness industry.
Delving into the psychology of working out, Karl provides thoughtful advice on fostering it as a consistent habit, dealing with the hurdles along the way, and the philosophies in fitness that relate to other life journeys.
Karl shares his views on the role of fitness trainers and how their specialized skills can be paired with the right clients to expedite their fitness journeys. He talks about the companies' initiatives to enhance member experiences, ranging from revamping clubs to recalibrating pricing strategies. He also dives into the current market dynamics and the need to adapt and evolve.
Tom and Karl discuss the changing perceptions of fitness among women and older adults, the future of the industry, and the importance of providing a welcoming and inclusive gym environment.
Lastly, Karl highlights the unique benefits of home workouts and gym classes, indicating how each complements the other for an all-round fitness experience.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So excited. As I say, every time I bring a guest on, and I will repeat myself
again, I only bring you the best guests.
And this one, it's taken some time.
We've had to reschedule numerous times.
And what that always says to me is this is going to be that much more worth it.
This is the first, Carl is the first CEO of a fitness company, gym,
(00:22):
which is kind of surprising to me so uh carl thank you for
uh taking the time carl sanf ceo of
24 hour fitness why don't you you know
let's start let's start
with kofi i mean you came in at a really challenging time right for the fitness
street so let's let's just start there and then we'll we'll keep going first
of all thanks for having having me on and all the reschedules were worth it
(00:45):
so i'm i'm excited to be here you know what a what a time to enter you know
the fitness industry i started in you know april of 2019.
It wasn't short. I actually started as the COO before I was the CEO.
It wasn't short after that, that we went into COVID and then for 24-hour fitness
restructuring and bankruptcy.
(01:06):
So it was trial by fire to say the least, but it gave you an opportunity to
stay grounded and rooted on what's important.
And I think I know who I'm talking to.
I mean, you know more than most just how important the pre-existing conditions
and mental and physical well-being prove to be in COVID and what a change it
(01:28):
is for people as we move forward and thankfully out of COVID.
It's been an amazing space and a wild five years.
And what I love so many things about your background is you were a 30-plus year
member of Before Our Fitness, right?
That's rare that a person becomes a CEO. So talk about that.
(01:49):
It's crazy. You know, it's, you know, I mean, 53 now, I was 23 working out with
my buddies, you know, Brian and Gerard, you know, in between sets talking about
what we're going to do with our lives once we graduated school.
And, you know, who knew I was in a place where I'd end up being.
So it's kind of a pretty incredible kind of kindred spirit type story.
(02:10):
But gave me an opportunity not only to understand the company from the inside
out, but through the decades of working out and how your needs change from 23,
what you're trying to accomplish, to 53, what you're trying to accomplish,
it couldn't be more different.
So it helped me understand what it is that our members are trying to do,
and then how I and our team can enable an environment that best supports that.
(02:35):
So we're the same age. So when you're working out, you have the big-haired 80s,
metal music no you're right it's grunge bands it's hard it's loud,
it's not anything that I want people to pipe in and see what's on my headphones
but yeah I like it loud and fast when I'm working out it makes a difference because it.
I'm sure you're no different. It helps me shut off everything else that's going on.
(02:57):
And, you know, I call it the best hour of your day.
You know, you get to, you know, whether you're a, you know, a parent,
you know, family member, member of your community, you know,
we all have all these different roles that we're responsible for.
And, you know, not very often you get time just dedicated to you.
And, you know, that's really what that hour is. And if I can get that hour in,
(03:18):
I'm better mentally, I'm better physically.
I don't think I'm unique in those spaces. I think think that's true for many people.
So what we really try to do is create an environment where people are able to do that.
And if they like to do that by themselves, that's great. If they'd like,
you know, access to fitness professionals, access to community, that's great.
You know, the fitness journeys, you know, a very personal one.
And, you know, we really like to do is have a suite of options available for
(03:41):
people so that they can, you know, get the most of what it is that they're trying to accomplish.
There's so much there. Let's just start the mental side. Like you and I,
having been in this business a long time, people hear that, right?
So they, you know, I always say the, like the quick response is,
you know, I used to work out for vanity. Now it's for sanity, right? It's for my head.
I love that. I actually hadn't heard that. I think he's exactly right.
(04:04):
Yeah. And, and, and I say, Carl, like, you know, there's basically three reasons
people go to your gym, people work out, it's to look better,
feel better, live longer.
And I would argue in our twenties, it's to look better, right?
That it's to feel better and then it's to live longer.
But it doesn't matter. It's the reason you start. You're going to get there.
That's right. But as you said, with COVID, and I studied a lot the psychology
(04:28):
of all this, we got to get away from the weight loss.
I mean, obviously, it's important. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be a healthy weight.
But we need to just focus on feeling good from exercise first and foremost to
start with. That's how it becomes a habit.
Yeah, I think he's right. It's got to be enjoyable. And, you know,
what I talk about is, you know, friction in the experience.
(04:52):
And, you know, there's friction when you get started. And I think that's a lot
of the reason that people, you know, don't stay committed to it.
Whether I was intimidated, or I didn't think I had, you know,
the right education or knowledge, or I didn't know what to do,
or, you know, I was worried about my diet, or, you know, maybe I just had,
you know, I couldn't tell the difference between being sore and being hurt,
you know, but all those friction points are the places where people get started and they stop.
(05:17):
So, I mean, I think the first thing to do is just have fun, you know,
get in, get moving, you know, meet people, engage in community.
You know, you don't have to be refined when you start. And I think if you could
just, you know, get moving, then, you know, you're fine as you go.
So, you know, I always tell people, you know, if you haven't tried group exercise, try it.
(05:38):
You know, if you haven't seen a cardio machine before, give it a shot,
but just the idea of getting started and getting moving, eventually you'll refine
because that's what we're doing.
We're always trying to optimize everything, but the first is build that habit and get in the club.
Yeah. I call it excessive moderation, right? There's so many people out there
(05:59):
that argue, Carl, to what you're talking about, where...
It's going to be horrible. You got to be, you got to get up at 5 a.m.
You got to suffer, right? And it's like, no.
Right. And that guy, there's one in particular, I rarely use names, but he's not suffering.
He actually enjoys that. If you made that guy, let's call him a runner.
(06:20):
If you made him swim, he'd be tortured, right? Yeah.
And it goes to the study you and I read all the time that says,
you know, what's the least amount of time I need to spend exercising?
And my response to that is if you're
looking for the least amount of time you want to do that thing
you haven't found that thing that you're talking about that
(06:40):
you enjoy doing that's right that's right yeah there's
all different ways of getting it done you know you can you know you
can watch the news you can you can you know watch
something on your device or you can use media as a way of escaping
when you're doing cardio so you're not staring at you know
the minutes and the time time you can you know
like i talked about earlier you can use group as a
way to engage you know
(07:03):
it is really difficult not to come when somebody says tom we'll
see you tomorrow right and you know it there's
so there's some aspect of you know inspiration and accountability in those relationships
so there's there's lots of ways to get started but it doesn't all have to be
horrible and you can't put yourself and you know this you can't put yourself
to that extreme person it's all about the best version of yourself.
(07:26):
And I've seen what you've done in marathons. It's incredible.
And, and I can tell you, I've had both knees done through sports injuries and
my days of running are over, but there's a lot of different cardio that I can do that I do enjoy.
So everybody can kind of find their way to, you know, optimize.
And, you know, I think that's, what's, what's wonderful about,
(07:46):
you know, fitness is you trying to be the best version of yourself versus compare
compare yourself to someone else.
And that's where a lot of that joy comes from. And you know how it is,
if you can actually see results, and you can see movement, and that's inspiring.
And at one point, the flywheel takes care of itself. But before it does,
you really have an access to community, I think matters a lot.
(08:07):
And I think what you're referring to, and it's the one of the hardest concepts
to get across to people when you say the flywheel takes,
you know, care of of itself there comes a point when
it becomes enjoyable enjoyable to
the point like if you said to me you can't do it you
can't go to the gym today and i do it all i work out at home i will talk
about that but i would flip out yeah
(08:29):
yeah that's the tipping point so you explain
it it's challenging at the start it's a journey you're
gonna make mistakes you're gonna try different things that's you know again
what you dislike you go okay how do i raise my heart rate what type of heavy
things do i like to lift and then you can get to the food side but there is
a tipping point that's amazing and there's no it's like once you get to that point you're good.
(08:54):
Yeah i think that's exactly right you know i've got three
daughters and it's not too different from the first day of school right you
know you've got all this apprehension but then when you go in and you build
a network and you learn the subjects you you get excited and you know you're
excited about learning some subjects you like less some subjects you like more but you find what it is,
(09:16):
that inspires you i think fitness and the journey is is very much the same way
like we may do do entirely different things.
But the outcomes that we're looking for are the same.
And, you know, like I really do like your vanity and sanity because I think it's exactly right.
Because I can tell you my version of 53, it's all about sanity because it's my time to shove it off.
(09:39):
And it's my time to actually just enjoy. And that's what's fantastic.
If you have three daughters, I grew up with five brothers.
Thank God I had two boys because I would be in a heap of trouble.
And you're Boston from the start, right?
I mean, I am. Yeah, I was born in Boston, raised in Arizona.
And then, you know, retail kind of takes you out to, you know,
(10:01):
California. I spent 30 years in retail before, you know, fitness.
And so a lot of, you know, experience in multi-unit, multi-state, things of that nature.
You know, the ability to really get clear on the type of leader that I wanted to be.
And they have big difference between boston and
california spent a lot of time uh college and
it's a unique town yeah what i
(10:24):
love about you too is you know doing my homework research you know your facebook
page is filled with like you're going out you're going to all the clubs you're
you're you're in the midst of it yeah so the question to you from a ceo standpoint
one you know haven't done that and i've worked with a lot of companies as a as an advisor carl.
(10:44):
How much of a fitness person do you think someone in your role needs to be i'll leave it at that,
it's a great question and you know
first of all i love being in clubs and and ironically
i usually travel by myself and it's not because i'm anti-social but i'm a big
believer and just getting in the car and driving so i you know yesterday just
(11:05):
got in the car and drove the clubs and you know met with ryan the general manager
and who had no idea i was walking in and he showed me around the club and we
talked about things that we're proud of.
We talked about things that we
needed to work on and we think about how we build the business together.
So that's a little bit about my mentality.
I think when it comes to fitness, you at the very least need to enjoy.
(11:31):
Fitness as a whole. So, you know, I was teased when linen and things,
you know, existed, you know, I could never work at linens and things.
If I was surrounded by folding towels all day, you know, I, I don't know what I would do with myself.
You know, I would just hate the environment and you couldn't walk in and get
inspiration and energy.
So what I love about this is that, you know, it's an industry that I'm inspired
(11:54):
by and that gives me energy. I think that's required.
I think, I don't know how you could fake that every day, every month,
every year, if it wasn't something that you absolutely enjoyed.
I think the other thing about it is that people want to see you participate.
So we do a lot of things when we get together in groups. We do group workouts.
(12:15):
We talk about our fitness journeys.
You've got to be able to participate in that. I can't compete with our 23-year-old
trainers that look like they're out of Greek mythology.
But they do appreciate that I'm out there being the best version of myself and
they see me engaging in the work.
So I don't think you can be void of interest and then show up in a way that's
(12:37):
authentic and inspire your team.
So I think you need a couple of feet in the industry.
You know, you can't stand up and say, you know, on a stage and say,
you know, we're here to, you know, change people's lives and have everybody
saying, you know, you should start with your own, you know, mental and physical health.
So you do kind of have to, you know, be on that journey with your team members,
(13:00):
with your members. I think it matters a lot.
You should be right i mean so that's one reason you're
so successful i'd argue with in a tough industry at
a tough time because i've just you know been
around a bunch and you're like they're not and i think to
truly embrace and understand it especially with the diverse journeys
and paths and fitness levels it's it's it's a tough industry
(13:21):
as you know better than anyone i cut my
teeth at crunch under doug levine way back in
the late 80s early 90s and and that was
it was it was was interesting and he was where you're
right it's it's it's a very small community and and
i've done a lot to network since i've been here your
24-hour fitness is interesting because a lot of people either
(13:43):
are a member or been a member so but you know they don't lack a point of view
around the company so you've got to you know find your way to engage with those
members and a lot of other companies executives actually started with 24-hour
fit so it's it's a very small community And I've worked diligently to network
through that community.
I'm proud to say that I reached out to Mark Mashroff, who started 24 Hour Fitness.
(14:08):
We have a relationship. I was on the phone with Mark this week.
He's an inspirational and legendary member of the fitness community.
And I'm proud of the fact that we've got a relationship.
And he is the founder's welcome back at any time into our clubs.
And, you know, I've met people at IHRSA and other communities where rather than
introducing myself, you know,
(14:30):
the first thing I've done is thank them for the company that they fit.
You know, Jim Rowley is another one that comes to mind at Crunch,
who was one of the founding pillars of 24-hour fitness and deserves credit for that.
So, you know, I don't want to come in not understanding the company that I run
and not understand the people that built the company.
So I'm very thankful to them and appreciative of them.
(14:51):
And I think that goes a long way. It puts me at a point where I can grow the
company with their respect and me respecting them. And that matters a lot to me.
I loved reading up on him. What did you just say? My name is Mark Mastroff. Yeah.
He's like the Arthur Jones, right? And I love this story about him, right?
(15:12):
He's for real. But he's also, he's incredibly authentic and genuine.
And if you ask him, he'll share his point of view.
And it's quite fascinating. So I think there's a lot that can be learned about
the past as we point our way to the future.
A lot of it's not higher learning, It's, you know, inspiring and engaging your team members.
(15:34):
It's finding a way to thrill your members. And, you know, it's making,
you know, wise business decisions for the company.
You know, for 24, we had to get healthy from the inside out.
We had to, you know, spend time, you know, retraining our folks.
We have to spend time, you know, investing in our clubs, which we've begun to do.
(15:55):
And we've got a systemic, you know, roll forward on how we're going to do that.
Our clubs got old and they needed to, you know, get refreshed.
So we're working diligently on that.
You know, we got our prices to be far more competitive than they've been.
You know, the combination of, you know, older clubs and expensive wasn't going to get us anywhere.
So we had to get, you know, priced right. And we had to refresh our clubs and
(16:16):
our members see us doing that.
You can't, you know, pretend a single is a home run. So we haven't done all
of them. So I'm not here saying, you know, we hit a home run.
I'm saying we're, you know, on first, we're around in second.
In and we hope to get hit home playing small ball but you
know that's the type of decisions that you have to make you know
in these jobs but it's it's been healthy and you're
you're you know you're in a tough position as you're talking about price because
(16:41):
it shifted you know back when i was at crunch all gyms were relatively you know
60 70 80 bucks somewhere in that there's no 10 20 30 dollar right no if you're
in manhattan you had the expensive you know boutique just the the start of of boutique gyms,
but you know, you're in that middle ground and that that's tough when you have
the ridiculously inexpensive ones and then your CrossFit boxes,
(17:02):
right. That are 200 to 50.
So just talk about that a little, cause that, that to me is like exceptional
that you can thrive at that price point.
Yeah, you know, and I really emphasize this through COVID. You know,
first of all, if you, and I know you do, but if we as a brand and I as a leader
actually believe in fitness, then no matter where somebody's getting their fitness
(17:22):
in, they're creating movement, you got to celebrate it.
So, you know, people will say, what do you think about running on the beach?
And say, look, you live near a beach and you can run, great, right?
And, you know, that counts. If you've got something set up at home and you can
get that done, and that's your way of achieving that, outstanding.
Usually costs a lot of money. usually takes a lot of room. Not everybody has
(17:42):
those things, but if you do, awesome.
That's good for you. You've got to embrace just movement.
So if people are working out at their competitor and they're achieving their
fitness goals, I've got to embrace that. Do I wish that they'd work out with me?
Of course I do, but I've got to earn that along the way.
And if you kind of look at the spectrum of low price competitors all the way
(18:04):
up to the boutiques, it's a different set of things that people are trying to accomplish.
If you start at one of those low-cost gyms, great, you got started.
You should celebrate that.
As you look a little bit deeper, you'll find that there's a different set of
equipment and amenities as you move up in price points.
And whether it's free weights or dumbbells or platforms or squat racks,
(18:28):
you're going to find that there's different things as you move forward in your
fitness journey and you'll find out what what you're paying for at the next level.
And then usually at the extreme highs, it's something other than just the functional floor.
It's amenities that are more around spas and spending days in cafes and things
of that nature, which is incredible.
But again, it's things that maybe a smaller percentage of people are interested in.
(18:53):
I like to say, and I've worked out at a lot of gyms, as I know you have,
and, you know, our functional floor, I, I, I compare it to just about anybody,
you know, some of the surrounding amenities when it comes to what else you can do when you're there.
And, you know, there's some people that just do an incredible job with that.
And we don't, but, but I think in the middle tier with the amenity set that
(19:16):
we have in the equipment that we have, it's actually, it's actually pretty incredible.
Yeah, I totally, and, you know, I was looking around at different pictures,
different clubs, and to your point, like, you know, big facility,
the AstroTurf, like all the fun tools, right? Yeah.
You know, and I think what you're explaining too, I, you know,
met with some YMCA people years ago and they were struggling and it was right
(19:38):
when boutique fitness came out.
And to me, one of the obvious problems was you're charging X and people don't want the pool.
People don't want, they want to piecemeal it. And so you've done a great job of that with the pool.
And, you know, I read some reviews of people who were like, you know,
oh my gosh, group group fitness, right?
So they were excited to be in that middle group, right? Yeah.
But they're not paying for stuff. So you've kind of...
(20:02):
You know, the world of boutique, you've kind of done both, which,
which is. It's exactly right. We've got access to community.
So group fitness is usually 20 to 30 people. It's choreographed.
It's a, it's a heck of a workout.
And if you'd never done it before, you know, you, you get humbled.
I know I was first time I did a body pump class.
I started with one weights and I ended with a different set of weights because
(20:23):
I'm like, this thing lasts an hour.
You know, so, so group fitness is great.
Group training is right around six to eight. And we have offerings that are
there a little bit more free flowing, you know, plyometrics,
free flowing exercises,
you know, kettlebells, things of that nature, you know, a higher degree of skill
and in more coaching along the way, which I think is incredible.
(20:46):
And of course, we have one on one personal training as well.
So we do have a suite of services that that, you know, works for most.
And, you know, the idea is, is, you know, if you're accomplishing your goals
and you're successful, great.
And then if you've hit one of those friction points or one of those ceilings,
you want someone to help you through that. We have access to those people as well.
And you told the story of yourself as a member using a trainer for the first
(21:09):
time and realize the value of that, right? Right? Yeah.
And he, you know, he, well, I talked to him when I started, because I had to
call him and tell him I joined the company. And he was looking for a commission, which was incredible.
But, you know, he did exactly what we want trainers to do.
He built a relationship with me over time, you know how it is,
(21:29):
like, I kind of always come in at six, you're always there at six,
eventually, we'll say hi to one another, learn each other's names.
And over time, he asked me the quintessential question, which is,
are you getting done what you want to get done?
And do you want any help. And even at 23 years old, I was like,
you know what, I'm stuck.
You can see that I'm stuck and I'd love to hit the next level. And he helped me do that.
(21:53):
And that's always been the model for me is what Jack was able to bring is not
a hard sell, but the ability to get people started and engaged.
And that's why we have at 24, the ability for people when they join to meet
meet with a trainer, which doesn't happen the first day or the first workout
(22:13):
because that can be overwhelming.
But we want to make sure that we're there so we can help people with education.
And if they do want some sort of a routine that can help them accelerate,
because millions of members and millions of workouts, we've learned some things
along the way and we can help extradite people on their journey.
(22:34):
And we'd love to pass that on to our members.
There's not many people that can answer the question he posed to you.
No, I'm not. Or yes, I am. Right, right, right.
Most people. But I love that. One of my favorite things was being a trainer. Just...
You know, and it was the grind. I mean, one of the gyms I worked at,
one of the crunches, it was underground, the 59th and 7th. Yeah.
(22:55):
Like I would get there at 5 a.m.
And oftentimes I wouldn't leave till 10 o'clock at night. So I didn't see the
sun. It's awesome. Right.
It's incredible how it changes. You know, when I started with the company,
so, you know, at the time I was 49, the first thing, and you get training sessions
as part of your onboarding.
And so the first thing I said to the trainer was, don't hurt me.
(23:17):
Right. Right. You know, because, you know, 26 years later, but as it turned
out, what he was actually able to cater for me was incredibly helpful.
And, you know, what he saw as an example was I was avoiding my knees because
I had ACL done on one, patella done on the other.
And what he helped me understand is I had to build a muscle around my knees.
(23:38):
And then once I was able to do that, that I was going to,
you know, be more functionally competent
as I moved through my my life and you know that was outstanding
so 26 years later same company
different needs different you know point in
life but a great outcome you had a great trainer right i mean that's that's
(23:58):
you know luck to some degree but also you know testament well i'm sure they
gave me one of the best his name is ryan but i'm sure they get you know when
the ceo starts they don't you know put you with a new trainer he was one of
the best great trainer up in northern california is that Yeah.
Where's it going to go with that? Yeah. Well, one of the tricky things,
as you probably know, is retaining those people, right?
(24:20):
And paying them enough. And there's the split, you know, and some gyms do it
worse than others, depending on what side of the equation you're on. That's right.
But retaining those people. And, you know, you see the fact they start taking
money under the table. There's ways around that, but the trainers will find ways around that.
So what do you do? I'm I'm curious from your vantage in today's world to pay
(24:41):
them enough, to keep them from leaving, to keep them from going to the person's
homes, or just from stealing?
Yeah, you know, you really got to talk to them, you know, because it's and you've
done it. So, you know, it's an entirely different mentality.
So, you know, the first thing you do is you try to optimize all the numbers,
because that's what all your experience does.
You finally put that down, you sit down and talk to them and you say what it
(25:03):
is that you're trying to do.
You know, most trainers, there's always the exceptions that,
you know, break the rule.
But most trainers want to work
15 to 25 hours a week. Most of them don't want to work 40 hours a week.
And then most of of them have a very clear point of view on the type of training
in the actual programs that they're interested in.
(25:25):
So then the idea is, is how do you get the right trainer with the right specialty,
for lack of a better explanation, to set up with their clients in a way so that's
a match all the way through?
And I think for the most part, clients, members actually want someone someone
that has some aspect of what it is that they're going through.
(25:45):
You know, so at 49, I need a trainer that understands joint pain,
right? As long as you know what joint pain is, we're going to have a good relationship.
If you don't know what it is, it's going to be really hard for us to get on
the same level, you know?
And I think that, you know, being able to connect with a trainer and a professional
and then allowing those professionals to connect with clients that that actually
(26:07):
are clear on what it is that they're trying to accomplish. That's what it helps.
If you try to do the opposite, you try to kind of make it to where everybody
has to do everything and everybody has to specialize in everything,
then the clients get frustrated and the trainers get frustrated.
But kind of freedom within the frame and the ability to get clear on how you
(26:30):
want to specialize and where you specialize, that seems to help a lot.
So important. So important. And crazy that 15 to 20 hours, I mean,
back in the day, we were hitting like, I think that, you know,
we would compete trainers and crunch across all the clubs in New York,
but the top guy was doing something like a hundred, I mean, crazy numbers.
We had those, you know, but you know how it is. It's a different world.
(26:53):
You can only do it for so long.
Labor regulations and overtime and, you know, all the other things that are
in it. But, But we still have some of those.
We've got some trainers that wouldn't dream of working less than 40 and would
be happier if they were working 55.
Those still exist, but it's a little bit different than it used to be.
(27:13):
Toughest question. So I wrote a book called Beat the Gym. And the first chapter
is, I was talking about that I would never own a gym. I did it for a very short amount of time.
It was an interesting little boutique gym in Connecticut. But the model,
especially not so much for yours, but it's still a part of
the revenue new stream it is what it is right is sign up and then
bank on a certain percentage not showing up now that's not
(27:35):
the fault that's your moment right yeah like we'll show
up but it's still there so how do you
deal with that i mean i guess yeah you know it's interesting because it's changed
a lot since covid you know because that that percentage of people builds up
over time you know so you know it it's you know for lack of better explanation
(27:56):
a froth over the top of the people who are working you know,
is this percentage of people who almost forgot they had a gym membership.
But what COVID did is it, you know, I mean, the industry stopped,
the gyms closed, and it was like a great reset.
And now there's this higher degree of intentionality than you've ever seen before. So you see...
(28:18):
At first, we were kind of fooled by it because we're like, well,
people are working out more than ever.
Look at the average workout for a member. It's like, no, those are the members
that have actually come back.
The averages will take care of themselves over time. So you are seeing those,
you know, what was a predominantly young male person that if they ever left
(28:39):
during COVID, you know, they were the first to come back.
But then you see, you know, different cohorts of members that have started to
come back, you know, active aging has come back in spades.
And, you know, those classes are huge and yoga is huge.
And you see it start kind of going back to industry norms, although not back
to the historical norms. So are there some people that join and never show up? Sure, there are.
(29:04):
Is it anywhere near what it used to be? It's not, which is actually both inspiring
and challenging and running an industry because your smile tells it all.
It's inspiring that people are doing it, but it's a different economics when
there's such an intentionality that wasn't there before.
So you want to push them into different like we want you
(29:25):
to go to the pool you do group fitness right right about
right right no they're they're lined
up on platforms and they're all olympic lifting just
everywhere they can it's become all the rage and i
have to say i love that you know we started talking about people being
comfortable in the gym i think that's where you first started talking about just
you know some of the barriers to people exercising one
(29:47):
of my favorite things you know back in the day the bulk myth
will always exist for women like fear of bulk that has changed like
crazy as you know with crossfit and everything and back in
the day you know there weren't many women who would go
to the free weight section and at crunch it was a different section and
i would bring all my female clients at some point down there i'm
like you don't have to work out here you don't but i'm
(30:08):
going to teach you how to do all the basics right so if
any guy comes up to you and says you know can i help you with
your squat you go i know you're hitting on me because exactly
exactly but i've seen that today
you know and they're saying strong is the new skinning that that's
a huge positive and i'm sure it's it's entirely different than
it used to be you've got you've got you know women incredibly strong pound for
(30:34):
pound much stronger than men you know in you know power lifting looking to gain
size you know just kicking ass as as you know fitness comes and And it is.
It's incredibly inspiring and it makes for a better dynamic, you know, because it's.
You know, now with your body type, with your gender, you've got like a wider
(30:55):
lane of what good looks like where, you know, when we grew up,
you know, there was only one version of good.
And it seemed like we just couldn't get there, you know, and there's these huge, you know, men.
And if you weren't like this huge guy or you didn't want to be this huge guy, it's like where you fit.
But now it's so many different degrees of fitness.
It's actually, you know, quite great. I love that one of the gyms I go to has
(31:19):
about maybe six Olympic platforms.
And at any given time, all six are women.
And I think some of the guys stay out because, again, the women,
as you said, are oftentimes stronger.
It's such a good thing. what do you see you
know challenges ahead for you kind of a cliche question but
(31:40):
you know you've got your competitors obviously i think i'm just
going to jump ahead a little bit i think it's your authenticity and your
true wanting people to succeed right i mean wanting your customer to get result
everyone says that but but few i think truly give that off oh i think it's exactly
right and it's still you know you get economies of scale when you're when you're bigger you know like.
(32:04):
You know, we lost clubs when we went through restructure. So we don't consider
ourselves big, but we forget on a relative basis that we are still big.
And but it's still a corner by corner, you know, you know, business,
you know, I mean, it's, you know, some people, you know, that travel a lot,
you know, take advantage of, you know, regional and national access, etc.
(32:25):
But for most people, it's the gym down the street from me.
And, you know, how do I feel when I go oh, there, what's the experience that I get?
Do people know my name? When you walk in, do they say hello to you and great to see you?
And is the gym well kept? And is the environment inclusive?
I mean, those are things that people are looking for. So the only things I like
(32:48):
to say is that all small companies want to be big, but big companies have to
go back and revisit small.
Because when When they were small, they were clear on how to grow.
And then when you get big, you
just get into different conversations about optimization and cost cutting.
And you just lose what it is that actually made you big in the first place. Right, right.
(33:13):
One thing I love you said in an article, I believe, and this was really insightful.
I hadn't thought about it this way. You said, you know, you had worked in retail
and people maybe go and touch point once a month, whatever it is,
a couple of times a month, maybe.
Yeah. For gyms, it's like two, three times a week or more.
That's right. You were saying how I think something like painting makes a huge
(33:35):
difference. So it's those little things that aren't mental.
Yeah, it's a different level of intimacy in the relationship.
And, you know, you're 30 years in retail.
You know, if you go during the holiday season, maybe the back to school season,
then one other gift giving time, you know, whether for yourself or somebody
that you care about, if a retailer sees you three times a year, that's good.
(33:58):
And but, you know, here you're going two, three times a week.
You're exerting yourself, you're trying to break through plateaus,
you're putting yourself in positions of, you know, whether it's sauna,
steam, you know, water, aerobics, etc.
I mean, this is a, it's a very, you know, unique environment.
(34:19):
All of our team members are trained, you know, in, you know,
making sure that, you know, they know how to, you know, handle an emergency
if one of our members, you know, you know, goes through, you know,
some sort of, you know, need from a health perspective.
So when you start thinking about that type of environment, it's,
it couldn't be more night and day from running it.
(34:41):
And you hear it. I remember my first board meeting, like it was yesterday and
they said, this isn't retail.
And I was thinking like, why are you telling me that? And you know,
like you knew it came from retail.
Why are you asking that question or, you know, making a statement six months later, later, I got it.
Like this isn't retail, it is a different environment.
And you really have to embrace the differences if you want to be successful in it.
(35:05):
It's and I talked about a little bit earlier, but it's a, it's an industry that
wants you to open your mind to understand it versus, you know,
analyze it. It's a it's a great environment that works.
And I think what you just said is, is, is really complicated,
right? But simple, right.
To listen. And I think you talked about that. And it's obviously why you go
(35:26):
to the clubs and, and, you know, yeah, fitness is what it is.
I always say a pushups, a pushups, a squats, a squat. It's never going to change.
It's the person in front of you, your trainer, your group exercise,
you know, you're either going to love that person, hate that person,
but you want to have a reaction to them.
Exactly. But you're learning, you're out and listening. And,
you know, again, it's all cliche, but you have to respond and be able to pivot.
(35:48):
It and and know even club by club probably.
What the needs are exactly right yeah
so this let's kind of wrap
it up it's been so great again i yeah no i appreciate this fun
conversation i have so many stories i left out because
they're for another time this is kind of the
meet and greet and then we'll get it yeah one story that i'm
(36:09):
sure a 24-hour fitness let me say this i wish they
had had one in new york city you don't have one in new york city as far as
i know not in the the city anymore we're in the burbs but
um but not in the city yeah cars now places like that
right exactly back when i was in the city and my story is
you know i was doing a lot of things including fitness but i was always doing some some
arts type thing i was doing stand-up comedy and and
(36:30):
and waiting tables so i would go there was one gym i'm
not going to name it like way downtown in manhattan i would like you
know jump on the subway 3 a.m and it was
like as bodybuilder dirty
but like i loved it like i yeah here but it
was like the huge industrial airplane fan and steroids
and like just craziness but
(36:53):
that's not exactly what i wanted right nice
down 24 hour fitness yeah i think that the industry term is
vintage right we call those vintage you know but they're for real i know the
gym you're talking about you do yeah exactly it probably probably hasn't changed
i haven't been yeah people don't want it to one funny thing that struck me as
i was you know preparing for this was it was a meme i had seen of a gym that had two escalators.
(37:19):
Do you know what i'm going to go i do.
And I was like, it had to be Photoshop. And then we're going to do this interview.
I'm like, wait, I think that was 24 Hour Fitness. It used to be.
So it used to be, but it's a real, the picture's legit, yes?
Well, the two escalators is one of the first, well, it actually was one of the
(37:41):
first 24 Hour Fitnesses that was out there and it's not a 24 anymore,
but I know the club and I know the meme and it's
you know it's the real deal like i get it so for
people who don't know it's it's an outdoor escalator leading up
to a gym where there's two escalators and a stairwell
in the middle and obvious jokes off of that i mean
(38:02):
i used to laugh too like a couple new york sports clubs i worked at
and equinoxes in the city you know people would get
on the elevator to go on the stairmaster right
right yeah no it's it's
it's quintessential it actually made a magazine cover back in
the day yes yes exactly you know
let's end with this because i don't want to leave out i know
(38:23):
you fit kid or fit america i was
involved with them way back at the start you have some partnerships
play works you know i've written a couple books i just self-published my first
kids book because i'm like i don't want to deal with the publishing world and
it's so important that we start so young with these kids yeah in the right way
i taught this thing called FitKid when my kids were growing up to spend time
(38:45):
with them and be involved with kids.
And I stopped doing it, Carl, because a bunch of the parents complained.
They came and watched after school and they said it wasn't bootcamp enough.
Now we're talking, I kid you not, kindergarten and first graders.
And I was like, there's something called deliberate play. There's something called- There is.
And sports psychology, if you would know it, you would know it.
(39:06):
Broad question. What do we do? What do we do?
Well, I can't take all credit for Playworks. Playworks was actually a relationship
that existed previously with 24-Hour Fitness.
I rekindled the relationship, which I'm really proud of.
It's all about purposeful play, to your point, recess.
If you look at the statistics on recess, it's pretty unbelievable about how
(39:29):
many kids in America don't have access to recess, don't actually engage in play.
And what Playworks does does an incredible job of doing is bringing their team
and businesses together to inspire, you know, play in people's day.
And, you know, the first thing we had to do is we had to revisit it as a team.
So we went through and we learned to play again and we played games,
(39:52):
you know, as a leadership team.
And now we've gone out to schools and we've engaged in it. And.
Trust me, it's one of those things you're like, you know, do I have time to
do this? Do I have time to go to a school, get out of my car and go play,
you know, dodgeball or, you know, hula hoop for an hour?
But, you know, I'm sure you saw the post, you know, I just, you know,
went to a school and I was like, it was one of the best days that I've had in the last year.
(40:16):
I don't think I've laughed out loud that much.
You know, I smiled, I high five the kids. You know, they asked some brilliant
questions, you know, from the mouths of babes when it came to what it was like
to run a company, participate in a company.
Why are you at my school? And, you know, do you have schools nearby?
You know, it was even my own kids are like, well, why don't you come play at our school?
(40:39):
And, you know, I had to say, you know, the difference between,
you know, schools that exist in Los Angeles. So it's brilliant conversation.
It's outstanding play. And I love our partnership at Playworks. It's dear to me.
That's awesome. And, you know, I kept saying we'll end with this,
but I get the question often.
I'm sure you do as well, you know, with connected fitness and gyms and,
(41:01):
you know, the more and more people putting together their own gyms,
you know, are gyms in trouble, whatever.
And I would say one of the main reasons I go to the gym is to be around people.
I think you know i think solo you
talk about like getting to show up at the beginning like i
love exercising by myself too much and then
(41:22):
yeah i'm going to the gym just the energy of that and there's nothing like a
group exercise class run by a phenomenal instructor that's right as 50 60 people
depending you know doing that same thing you know synchronized just sweating
the The best there is. Yeah. So gyms are fun.
That's exactly right. I want to go to the movies and be around people and laugh
(41:43):
with movies, and I want to watch Netflix at home. It's not one or the other. Both, right? Well said.
Well said. And you appreciate the movies and the gym that much more when you're doing both.
Thank you so much. I know I'm kind of all over you. Thank you.
I appreciate the time. Thanks for everything. Have a great day.
Much success. And let's do this again. Thank you.
So excited. As I say, every time I bring a guest on, and I will repeat myself
again, I only bring you the best guests.
And this one, it's taken some time.
We've had to reschedule numerous times.
And what that always says to me is this is going to be that much more worth it.
This is the first, Carl is the first CEO of a fitness company, gym,
(00:22):
which is kind of surprising to me so uh carl thank you for
uh taking the time carl sanf ceo of
24 hour fitness why don't you you know
let's start let's start
with kofi i mean you came in at a really challenging time right for the fitness
street so let's let's just start there and then we'll we'll keep going first
of all thanks for having having me on and all the reschedules were worth it
(00:45):
so i'm i'm excited to be here you know what a what a time to enter you know
the fitness industry i started in you know april of 2019.
It wasn't short. I actually started as the COO before I was the CEO.
It wasn't short after that, that we went into COVID and then for 24-hour fitness
restructuring and bankruptcy.
(01:06):
So it was trial by fire to say the least, but it gave you an opportunity to
stay grounded and rooted on what's important.
And I think I know who I'm talking to.
I mean, you know more than most just how important the pre-existing conditions
and mental and physical well-being prove to be in COVID and what a change it
(01:28):
is for people as we move forward and thankfully out of COVID.
It's been an amazing space and a wild five years.
And what I love so many things about your background is you were a 30-plus year
member of Before Our Fitness, right?
That's rare that a person becomes a CEO. So talk about that.
(01:49):
It's crazy. You know, it's, you know, I mean, 53 now, I was 23 working out with
my buddies, you know, Brian and Gerard, you know, in between sets talking about
what we're going to do with our lives once we graduated school.
And, you know, who knew I was in a place where I'd end up being.
So it's kind of a pretty incredible kind of kindred spirit type story.
(02:10):
But gave me an opportunity not only to understand the company from the inside
out, but through the decades of working out and how your needs change from 23,
what you're trying to accomplish, to 53, what you're trying to accomplish,
it couldn't be more different.
So it helped me understand what it is that our members are trying to do,
and then how I and our team can enable an environment that best supports that.
(02:35):
So we're the same age. So when you're working out, you have the big-haired 80s,
metal music no you're right it's grunge bands it's hard it's loud,
it's not anything that I want people to pipe in and see what's on my headphones
but yeah I like it loud and fast when I'm working out it makes a difference because it.
I'm sure you're no different. It helps me shut off everything else that's going on.
(02:57):
And, you know, I call it the best hour of your day.
You know, you get to, you know, whether you're a, you know, a parent,
you know, family member, member of your community, you know,
we all have all these different roles that we're responsible for.
And, you know, not very often you get time just dedicated to you.
And, you know, that's really what that hour is. And if I can get that hour in,
(03:18):
I'm better mentally, I'm better physically.
I don't think I'm unique in those spaces. I think think that's true for many people.
So what we really try to do is create an environment where people are able to do that.
And if they like to do that by themselves, that's great. If they'd like,
you know, access to fitness professionals, access to community, that's great.
You know, the fitness journeys, you know, a very personal one.
And, you know, we really like to do is have a suite of options available for
(03:41):
people so that they can, you know, get the most of what it is that they're trying to accomplish.
There's so much there. Let's just start the mental side. Like you and I,
having been in this business a long time, people hear that, right?
So they, you know, I always say the, like the quick response is,
you know, I used to work out for vanity. Now it's for sanity, right? It's for my head.
I love that. I actually hadn't heard that. I think he's exactly right.
(04:04):
Yeah. And, and, and I say, Carl, like, you know, there's basically three reasons
people go to your gym, people work out, it's to look better,
feel better, live longer.
And I would argue in our twenties, it's to look better, right?
That it's to feel better and then it's to live longer.
But it doesn't matter. It's the reason you start. You're going to get there.
That's right. But as you said, with COVID, and I studied a lot the psychology
(04:28):
of all this, we got to get away from the weight loss.
I mean, obviously, it's important. And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be a healthy weight.
But we need to just focus on feeling good from exercise first and foremost to
start with. That's how it becomes a habit.
Yeah, I think he's right. It's got to be enjoyable. And, you know,
what I talk about is, you know, friction in the experience.
(04:52):
And, you know, there's friction when you get started. And I think that's a lot
of the reason that people, you know, don't stay committed to it.
Whether I was intimidated, or I didn't think I had, you know,
the right education or knowledge, or I didn't know what to do,
or, you know, I was worried about my diet, or, you know, maybe I just had,
you know, I couldn't tell the difference between being sore and being hurt,
you know, but all those friction points are the places where people get started and they stop.
(05:17):
So, I mean, I think the first thing to do is just have fun, you know,
get in, get moving, you know, meet people, engage in community.
You know, you don't have to be refined when you start. And I think if you could
just, you know, get moving, then, you know, you're fine as you go.
So, you know, I always tell people, you know, if you haven't tried group exercise, try it.
(05:38):
You know, if you haven't seen a cardio machine before, give it a shot,
but just the idea of getting started and getting moving, eventually you'll refine
because that's what we're doing.
We're always trying to optimize everything, but the first is build that habit and get in the club.
Yeah. I call it excessive moderation, right? There's so many people out there
(05:59):
that argue, Carl, to what you're talking about, where...
It's going to be horrible. You got to be, you got to get up at 5 a.m.
You got to suffer, right? And it's like, no.
Right. And that guy, there's one in particular, I rarely use names, but he's not suffering.
He actually enjoys that. If you made that guy, let's call him a runner.
(06:20):
If you made him swim, he'd be tortured, right? Yeah.
And it goes to the study you and I read all the time that says,
you know, what's the least amount of time I need to spend exercising?
And my response to that is if you're
looking for the least amount of time you want to do that thing
you haven't found that thing that you're talking about that
(06:40):
you enjoy doing that's right that's right yeah there's
all different ways of getting it done you know you can you know you
can watch the news you can you can you know watch
something on your device or you can use media as a way of escaping
when you're doing cardio so you're not staring at you know
the minutes and the time time you can you know
like i talked about earlier you can use group as a
way to engage you know
(07:03):
it is really difficult not to come when somebody says tom we'll
see you tomorrow right and you know it there's
so there's some aspect of you know inspiration and accountability in those relationships
so there's there's lots of ways to get started but it doesn't all have to be
horrible and you can't put yourself and you know this you can't put yourself
to that extreme person it's all about the best version of yourself.
(07:26):
And I've seen what you've done in marathons. It's incredible.
And, and I can tell you, I've had both knees done through sports injuries and
my days of running are over, but there's a lot of different cardio that I can do that I do enjoy.
So everybody can kind of find their way to, you know, optimize.
And, you know, I think that's, what's, what's wonderful about,
(07:46):
you know, fitness is you trying to be the best version of yourself versus compare
compare yourself to someone else.
And that's where a lot of that joy comes from. And you know how it is,
if you can actually see results, and you can see movement, and that's inspiring.
And at one point, the flywheel takes care of itself. But before it does,
you really have an access to community, I think matters a lot.
(08:07):
And I think what you're referring to, and it's the one of the hardest concepts
to get across to people when you say the flywheel takes,
you know, care of of itself there comes a point when
it becomes enjoyable enjoyable to
the point like if you said to me you can't do it you
can't go to the gym today and i do it all i work out at home i will talk
about that but i would flip out yeah
(08:29):
yeah that's the tipping point so you explain
it it's challenging at the start it's a journey you're
gonna make mistakes you're gonna try different things that's you know again
what you dislike you go okay how do i raise my heart rate what type of heavy
things do i like to lift and then you can get to the food side but there is
a tipping point that's amazing and there's no it's like once you get to that point you're good.
(08:54):
Yeah i think that's exactly right you know i've got three
daughters and it's not too different from the first day of school right you
know you've got all this apprehension but then when you go in and you build
a network and you learn the subjects you you get excited and you know you're
excited about learning some subjects you like less some subjects you like more but you find what it is,
(09:16):
that inspires you i think fitness and the journey is is very much the same way
like we may do do entirely different things.
But the outcomes that we're looking for are the same.
And, you know, like I really do like your vanity and sanity because I think it's exactly right.
Because I can tell you my version of 53, it's all about sanity because it's my time to shove it off.
(09:39):
And it's my time to actually just enjoy. And that's what's fantastic.
If you have three daughters, I grew up with five brothers.
Thank God I had two boys because I would be in a heap of trouble.
And you're Boston from the start, right?
I mean, I am. Yeah, I was born in Boston, raised in Arizona.
And then, you know, retail kind of takes you out to, you know,
(10:01):
California. I spent 30 years in retail before, you know, fitness.
And so a lot of, you know, experience in multi-unit, multi-state, things of that nature.
You know, the ability to really get clear on the type of leader that I wanted to be.
And they have big difference between boston and
california spent a lot of time uh college and
it's a unique town yeah what i
(10:24):
love about you too is you know doing my homework research you know your facebook
page is filled with like you're going out you're going to all the clubs you're
you're you're in the midst of it yeah so the question to you from a ceo standpoint
one you know haven't done that and i've worked with a lot of companies as a as an advisor carl.
(10:44):
How much of a fitness person do you think someone in your role needs to be i'll leave it at that,
it's a great question and you know
first of all i love being in clubs and and ironically
i usually travel by myself and it's not because i'm anti-social but i'm a big
believer and just getting in the car and driving so i you know yesterday just
(11:05):
got in the car and drove the clubs and you know met with ryan the general manager
and who had no idea i was walking in and he showed me around the club and we
talked about things that we're proud of.
We talked about things that we
needed to work on and we think about how we build the business together.
So that's a little bit about my mentality.
I think when it comes to fitness, you at the very least need to enjoy.
(11:31):
Fitness as a whole. So, you know, I was teased when linen and things,
you know, existed, you know, I could never work at linens and things.
If I was surrounded by folding towels all day, you know, I, I don't know what I would do with myself.
You know, I would just hate the environment and you couldn't walk in and get
inspiration and energy.
So what I love about this is that, you know, it's an industry that I'm inspired
(11:54):
by and that gives me energy. I think that's required.
I think, I don't know how you could fake that every day, every month,
every year, if it wasn't something that you absolutely enjoyed.
I think the other thing about it is that people want to see you participate.
So we do a lot of things when we get together in groups. We do group workouts.
(12:15):
We talk about our fitness journeys.
You've got to be able to participate in that. I can't compete with our 23-year-old
trainers that look like they're out of Greek mythology.
But they do appreciate that I'm out there being the best version of myself and
they see me engaging in the work.
So I don't think you can be void of interest and then show up in a way that's
(12:37):
authentic and inspire your team.
So I think you need a couple of feet in the industry.
You know, you can't stand up and say, you know, on a stage and say,
you know, we're here to, you know, change people's lives and have everybody
saying, you know, you should start with your own, you know, mental and physical health.
So you do kind of have to, you know, be on that journey with your team members,
(13:00):
with your members. I think it matters a lot.
You should be right i mean so that's one reason you're
so successful i'd argue with in a tough industry at
a tough time because i've just you know been
around a bunch and you're like they're not and i think to
truly embrace and understand it especially with the diverse journeys
and paths and fitness levels it's it's it's a tough industry
(13:21):
as you know better than anyone i cut my
teeth at crunch under doug levine way back in
the late 80s early 90s and and that was
it was it was was interesting and he was where you're
right it's it's it's a very small community and and
i've done a lot to network since i've been here your
24-hour fitness is interesting because a lot of people either
(13:43):
are a member or been a member so but you know they don't lack a point of view
around the company so you've got to you know find your way to engage with those
members and a lot of other companies executives actually started with 24-hour
fit so it's it's a very small community And I've worked diligently to network
through that community.
I'm proud to say that I reached out to Mark Mashroff, who started 24 Hour Fitness.
(14:08):
We have a relationship. I was on the phone with Mark this week.
He's an inspirational and legendary member of the fitness community.
And I'm proud of the fact that we've got a relationship.
And he is the founder's welcome back at any time into our clubs.
And, you know, I've met people at IHRSA and other communities where rather than
introducing myself, you know,
(14:30):
the first thing I've done is thank them for the company that they fit.
You know, Jim Rowley is another one that comes to mind at Crunch,
who was one of the founding pillars of 24-hour fitness and deserves credit for that.
So, you know, I don't want to come in not understanding the company that I run
and not understand the people that built the company.
So I'm very thankful to them and appreciative of them.
(14:51):
And I think that goes a long way. It puts me at a point where I can grow the
company with their respect and me respecting them. And that matters a lot to me.
I loved reading up on him. What did you just say? My name is Mark Mastroff. Yeah.
He's like the Arthur Jones, right? And I love this story about him, right?
(15:12):
He's for real. But he's also, he's incredibly authentic and genuine.
And if you ask him, he'll share his point of view.
And it's quite fascinating. So I think there's a lot that can be learned about
the past as we point our way to the future.
A lot of it's not higher learning, It's, you know, inspiring and engaging your team members.
(15:34):
It's finding a way to thrill your members. And, you know, it's making,
you know, wise business decisions for the company.
You know, for 24, we had to get healthy from the inside out.
We had to, you know, spend time, you know, retraining our folks.
We have to spend time, you know, investing in our clubs, which we've begun to do.
(15:55):
And we've got a systemic, you know, roll forward on how we're going to do that.
Our clubs got old and they needed to, you know, get refreshed.
So we're working diligently on that.
You know, we got our prices to be far more competitive than they've been.
You know, the combination of, you know, older clubs and expensive wasn't going to get us anywhere.
So we had to get, you know, priced right. And we had to refresh our clubs and
(16:16):
our members see us doing that.
You can't, you know, pretend a single is a home run. So we haven't done all
of them. So I'm not here saying, you know, we hit a home run.
I'm saying we're, you know, on first, we're around in second.
In and we hope to get hit home playing small ball but you
know that's the type of decisions that you have to make you know
in these jobs but it's it's been healthy and you're
you're you know you're in a tough position as you're talking about price because
(16:41):
it shifted you know back when i was at crunch all gyms were relatively you know
60 70 80 bucks somewhere in that there's no 10 20 30 dollar right no if you're
in manhattan you had the expensive you know boutique just the the start of of boutique gyms,
but you know, you're in that middle ground and that that's tough when you have
the ridiculously inexpensive ones and then your CrossFit boxes,
(17:02):
right. That are 200 to 50.
So just talk about that a little, cause that, that to me is like exceptional
that you can thrive at that price point.
Yeah, you know, and I really emphasize this through COVID. You know,
first of all, if you, and I know you do, but if we as a brand and I as a leader
actually believe in fitness, then no matter where somebody's getting their fitness
(17:22):
in, they're creating movement, you got to celebrate it.
So, you know, people will say, what do you think about running on the beach?
And say, look, you live near a beach and you can run, great, right?
And, you know, that counts. If you've got something set up at home and you can
get that done, and that's your way of achieving that, outstanding.
Usually costs a lot of money. usually takes a lot of room. Not everybody has
(17:42):
those things, but if you do, awesome.
That's good for you. You've got to embrace just movement.
So if people are working out at their competitor and they're achieving their
fitness goals, I've got to embrace that. Do I wish that they'd work out with me?
Of course I do, but I've got to earn that along the way.
And if you kind of look at the spectrum of low price competitors all the way
(18:04):
up to the boutiques, it's a different set of things that people are trying to accomplish.
If you start at one of those low-cost gyms, great, you got started.
You should celebrate that.
As you look a little bit deeper, you'll find that there's a different set of
equipment and amenities as you move up in price points.
And whether it's free weights or dumbbells or platforms or squat racks,
(18:28):
you're going to find that there's different things as you move forward in your
fitness journey and you'll find out what what you're paying for at the next level.
And then usually at the extreme highs, it's something other than just the functional floor.
It's amenities that are more around spas and spending days in cafes and things
of that nature, which is incredible.
But again, it's things that maybe a smaller percentage of people are interested in.
(18:53):
I like to say, and I've worked out at a lot of gyms, as I know you have,
and, you know, our functional floor, I, I, I compare it to just about anybody,
you know, some of the surrounding amenities when it comes to what else you can do when you're there.
And, you know, there's some people that just do an incredible job with that.
And we don't, but, but I think in the middle tier with the amenity set that
(19:16):
we have in the equipment that we have, it's actually, it's actually pretty incredible.
Yeah, I totally, and, you know, I was looking around at different pictures,
different clubs, and to your point, like, you know, big facility,
the AstroTurf, like all the fun tools, right? Yeah.
You know, and I think what you're explaining too, I, you know,
met with some YMCA people years ago and they were struggling and it was right
(19:38):
when boutique fitness came out.
And to me, one of the obvious problems was you're charging X and people don't want the pool.
People don't want, they want to piecemeal it. And so you've done a great job of that with the pool.
And, you know, I read some reviews of people who were like, you know,
oh my gosh, group group fitness, right?
So they were excited to be in that middle group, right? Yeah.
But they're not paying for stuff. So you've kind of...
(20:02):
You know, the world of boutique, you've kind of done both, which,
which is. It's exactly right. We've got access to community.
So group fitness is usually 20 to 30 people. It's choreographed.
It's a, it's a heck of a workout.
And if you'd never done it before, you know, you, you get humbled.
I know I was first time I did a body pump class.
I started with one weights and I ended with a different set of weights because
(20:23):
I'm like, this thing lasts an hour.
You know, so, so group fitness is great.
Group training is right around six to eight. And we have offerings that are
there a little bit more free flowing, you know, plyometrics,
free flowing exercises,
you know, kettlebells, things of that nature, you know, a higher degree of skill
and in more coaching along the way, which I think is incredible.
(20:46):
And of course, we have one on one personal training as well.
So we do have a suite of services that that, you know, works for most.
And, you know, the idea is, is, you know, if you're accomplishing your goals
and you're successful, great.
And then if you've hit one of those friction points or one of those ceilings,
you want someone to help you through that. We have access to those people as well.
And you told the story of yourself as a member using a trainer for the first
(21:09):
time and realize the value of that, right? Right? Yeah.
And he, you know, he, well, I talked to him when I started, because I had to
call him and tell him I joined the company. And he was looking for a commission, which was incredible.
But, you know, he did exactly what we want trainers to do.
He built a relationship with me over time, you know how it is,
(21:29):
like, I kind of always come in at six, you're always there at six,
eventually, we'll say hi to one another, learn each other's names.
And over time, he asked me the quintessential question, which is,
are you getting done what you want to get done?
And do you want any help. And even at 23 years old, I was like,
you know what, I'm stuck.
You can see that I'm stuck and I'd love to hit the next level. And he helped me do that.
(21:53):
And that's always been the model for me is what Jack was able to bring is not
a hard sell, but the ability to get people started and engaged.
And that's why we have at 24, the ability for people when they join to meet
meet with a trainer, which doesn't happen the first day or the first workout
(22:13):
because that can be overwhelming.
But we want to make sure that we're there so we can help people with education.
And if they do want some sort of a routine that can help them accelerate,
because millions of members and millions of workouts, we've learned some things
along the way and we can help extradite people on their journey.
(22:34):
And we'd love to pass that on to our members.
There's not many people that can answer the question he posed to you.
No, I'm not. Or yes, I am. Right, right, right.
Most people. But I love that. One of my favorite things was being a trainer. Just...
You know, and it was the grind. I mean, one of the gyms I worked at,
one of the crunches, it was underground, the 59th and 7th. Yeah.
(22:55):
Like I would get there at 5 a.m.
And oftentimes I wouldn't leave till 10 o'clock at night. So I didn't see the
sun. It's awesome. Right.
It's incredible how it changes. You know, when I started with the company,
so, you know, at the time I was 49, the first thing, and you get training sessions
as part of your onboarding.
And so the first thing I said to the trainer was, don't hurt me.
(23:17):
Right. Right. You know, because, you know, 26 years later, but as it turned
out, what he was actually able to cater for me was incredibly helpful.
And, you know, what he saw as an example was I was avoiding my knees because
I had ACL done on one, patella done on the other.
And what he helped me understand is I had to build a muscle around my knees.
(23:38):
And then once I was able to do that, that I was going to,
you know, be more functionally competent
as I moved through my my life and you know that was outstanding
so 26 years later same company
different needs different you know point in
life but a great outcome you had a great trainer right i mean that's that's
(23:58):
you know luck to some degree but also you know testament well i'm sure they
gave me one of the best his name is ryan but i'm sure they get you know when
the ceo starts they don't you know put you with a new trainer he was one of
the best great trainer up in northern california is that Yeah.
Where's it going to go with that? Yeah. Well, one of the tricky things,
as you probably know, is retaining those people, right?
(24:20):
And paying them enough. And there's the split, you know, and some gyms do it
worse than others, depending on what side of the equation you're on. That's right.
But retaining those people. And, you know, you see the fact they start taking
money under the table. There's ways around that, but the trainers will find ways around that.
So what do you do? I'm I'm curious from your vantage in today's world to pay
(24:41):
them enough, to keep them from leaving, to keep them from going to the person's
homes, or just from stealing?
Yeah, you know, you really got to talk to them, you know, because it's and you've
done it. So, you know, it's an entirely different mentality.
So, you know, the first thing you do is you try to optimize all the numbers,
because that's what all your experience does.
You finally put that down, you sit down and talk to them and you say what it
(25:03):
is that you're trying to do.
You know, most trainers, there's always the exceptions that,
you know, break the rule.
But most trainers want to work
15 to 25 hours a week. Most of them don't want to work 40 hours a week.
And then most of of them have a very clear point of view on the type of training
in the actual programs that they're interested in.
(25:25):
So then the idea is, is how do you get the right trainer with the right specialty,
for lack of a better explanation, to set up with their clients in a way so that's
a match all the way through?
And I think for the most part, clients, members actually want someone someone
that has some aspect of what it is that they're going through.
(25:45):
You know, so at 49, I need a trainer that understands joint pain,
right? As long as you know what joint pain is, we're going to have a good relationship.
If you don't know what it is, it's going to be really hard for us to get on
the same level, you know?
And I think that, you know, being able to connect with a trainer and a professional
and then allowing those professionals to connect with clients that that actually
(26:07):
are clear on what it is that they're trying to accomplish. That's what it helps.
If you try to do the opposite, you try to kind of make it to where everybody
has to do everything and everybody has to specialize in everything,
then the clients get frustrated and the trainers get frustrated.
But kind of freedom within the frame and the ability to get clear on how you
(26:30):
want to specialize and where you specialize, that seems to help a lot.
So important. So important. And crazy that 15 to 20 hours, I mean,
back in the day, we were hitting like, I think that, you know,
we would compete trainers and crunch across all the clubs in New York,
but the top guy was doing something like a hundred, I mean, crazy numbers.
We had those, you know, but you know how it is. It's a different world.
(26:53):
You can only do it for so long.
Labor regulations and overtime and, you know, all the other things that are
in it. But, But we still have some of those.
We've got some trainers that wouldn't dream of working less than 40 and would
be happier if they were working 55.
Those still exist, but it's a little bit different than it used to be.
(27:13):
Toughest question. So I wrote a book called Beat the Gym. And the first chapter
is, I was talking about that I would never own a gym. I did it for a very short amount of time.
It was an interesting little boutique gym in Connecticut. But the model,
especially not so much for yours, but it's still a part of
the revenue new stream it is what it is right is sign up and then
bank on a certain percentage not showing up now that's not
(27:35):
the fault that's your moment right yeah like we'll show
up but it's still there so how do you
deal with that i mean i guess yeah you know it's interesting because it's changed
a lot since covid you know because that that percentage of people builds up
over time you know so you know it it's you know for lack of better explanation
(27:56):
a froth over the top of the people who are working you know,
is this percentage of people who almost forgot they had a gym membership.
But what COVID did is it, you know, I mean, the industry stopped,
the gyms closed, and it was like a great reset.
And now there's this higher degree of intentionality than you've ever seen before. So you see...
(28:18):
At first, we were kind of fooled by it because we're like, well,
people are working out more than ever.
Look at the average workout for a member. It's like, no, those are the members
that have actually come back.
The averages will take care of themselves over time. So you are seeing those,
you know, what was a predominantly young male person that if they ever left
(28:39):
during COVID, you know, they were the first to come back.
But then you see, you know, different cohorts of members that have started to
come back, you know, active aging has come back in spades.
And, you know, those classes are huge and yoga is huge.
And you see it start kind of going back to industry norms, although not back
to the historical norms. So are there some people that join and never show up? Sure, there are.
(29:04):
Is it anywhere near what it used to be? It's not, which is actually both inspiring
and challenging and running an industry because your smile tells it all.
It's inspiring that people are doing it, but it's a different economics when
there's such an intentionality that wasn't there before.
So you want to push them into different like we want you
(29:25):
to go to the pool you do group fitness right right about
right right no they're they're lined
up on platforms and they're all olympic lifting just
everywhere they can it's become all the rage and i
have to say i love that you know we started talking about people being
comfortable in the gym i think that's where you first started talking about just
you know some of the barriers to people exercising one
(29:47):
of my favorite things you know back in the day the bulk myth
will always exist for women like fear of bulk that has changed like
crazy as you know with crossfit and everything and back in
the day you know there weren't many women who would go
to the free weight section and at crunch it was a different section and
i would bring all my female clients at some point down there i'm
like you don't have to work out here you don't but i'm
(30:08):
going to teach you how to do all the basics right so if
any guy comes up to you and says you know can i help you with
your squat you go i know you're hitting on me because exactly
exactly but i've seen that today
you know and they're saying strong is the new skinning that that's
a huge positive and i'm sure it's it's entirely different than
it used to be you've got you've got you know women incredibly strong pound for
(30:34):
pound much stronger than men you know in you know power lifting looking to gain
size you know just kicking ass as as you know fitness comes and And it is.
It's incredibly inspiring and it makes for a better dynamic, you know, because it's.
You know, now with your body type, with your gender, you've got like a wider
(30:55):
lane of what good looks like where, you know, when we grew up,
you know, there was only one version of good.
And it seemed like we just couldn't get there, you know, and there's these huge, you know, men.
And if you weren't like this huge guy or you didn't want to be this huge guy, it's like where you fit.
But now it's so many different degrees of fitness.
It's actually, you know, quite great. I love that one of the gyms I go to has
(31:19):
about maybe six Olympic platforms.
And at any given time, all six are women.
And I think some of the guys stay out because, again, the women,
as you said, are oftentimes stronger.
It's such a good thing. what do you see you
know challenges ahead for you kind of a cliche question but
(31:40):
you know you've got your competitors obviously i think i'm just
going to jump ahead a little bit i think it's your authenticity and your
true wanting people to succeed right i mean wanting your customer to get result
everyone says that but but few i think truly give that off oh i think it's exactly
right and it's still you know you get economies of scale when you're when you're bigger you know like.
(32:04):
You know, we lost clubs when we went through restructure. So we don't consider
ourselves big, but we forget on a relative basis that we are still big.
And but it's still a corner by corner, you know, you know, business,
you know, I mean, it's, you know, some people, you know, that travel a lot,
you know, take advantage of, you know, regional and national access, etc.
(32:25):
But for most people, it's the gym down the street from me.
And, you know, how do I feel when I go oh, there, what's the experience that I get?
Do people know my name? When you walk in, do they say hello to you and great to see you?
And is the gym well kept? And is the environment inclusive?
I mean, those are things that people are looking for. So the only things I like
(32:48):
to say is that all small companies want to be big, but big companies have to
go back and revisit small.
Because when When they were small, they were clear on how to grow.
And then when you get big, you
just get into different conversations about optimization and cost cutting.
And you just lose what it is that actually made you big in the first place. Right, right.
(33:13):
One thing I love you said in an article, I believe, and this was really insightful.
I hadn't thought about it this way. You said, you know, you had worked in retail
and people maybe go and touch point once a month, whatever it is,
a couple of times a month, maybe.
Yeah. For gyms, it's like two, three times a week or more.
That's right. You were saying how I think something like painting makes a huge
(33:35):
difference. So it's those little things that aren't mental.
Yeah, it's a different level of intimacy in the relationship.
And, you know, you're 30 years in retail.
You know, if you go during the holiday season, maybe the back to school season,
then one other gift giving time, you know, whether for yourself or somebody
that you care about, if a retailer sees you three times a year, that's good.
(33:58):
And but, you know, here you're going two, three times a week.
You're exerting yourself, you're trying to break through plateaus,
you're putting yourself in positions of, you know, whether it's sauna,
steam, you know, water, aerobics, etc.
I mean, this is a, it's a very, you know, unique environment.
(34:19):
All of our team members are trained, you know, in, you know,
making sure that, you know, they know how to, you know, handle an emergency
if one of our members, you know, you know, goes through, you know,
some sort of, you know, need from a health perspective.
So when you start thinking about that type of environment, it's,
it couldn't be more night and day from running it.
(34:41):
And you hear it. I remember my first board meeting, like it was yesterday and
they said, this isn't retail.
And I was thinking like, why are you telling me that? And you know,
like you knew it came from retail.
Why are you asking that question or, you know, making a statement six months later, later, I got it.
Like this isn't retail, it is a different environment.
And you really have to embrace the differences if you want to be successful in it.
(35:05):
It's and I talked about a little bit earlier, but it's a, it's an industry that
wants you to open your mind to understand it versus, you know,
analyze it. It's a it's a great environment that works.
And I think what you just said is, is, is really complicated,
right? But simple, right.
To listen. And I think you talked about that. And it's obviously why you go
(35:26):
to the clubs and, and, you know, yeah, fitness is what it is.
I always say a pushups, a pushups, a squats, a squat. It's never going to change.
It's the person in front of you, your trainer, your group exercise,
you know, you're either going to love that person, hate that person,
but you want to have a reaction to them.
Exactly. But you're learning, you're out and listening. And,
you know, again, it's all cliche, but you have to respond and be able to pivot.
(35:48):
It and and know even club by club probably.
What the needs are exactly right yeah
so this let's kind of wrap
it up it's been so great again i yeah no i appreciate this fun
conversation i have so many stories i left out because
they're for another time this is kind of the
meet and greet and then we'll get it yeah one story that i'm
(36:09):
sure a 24-hour fitness let me say this i wish they
had had one in new york city you don't have one in new york city as far as
i know not in the the city anymore we're in the burbs but
um but not in the city yeah cars now places like that
right exactly back when i was in the city and my story is
you know i was doing a lot of things including fitness but i was always doing some some
arts type thing i was doing stand-up comedy and and
(36:30):
and waiting tables so i would go there was one gym i'm
not going to name it like way downtown in manhattan i would like you
know jump on the subway 3 a.m and it was
like as bodybuilder dirty
but like i loved it like i yeah here but it
was like the huge industrial airplane fan and steroids
and like just craziness but
(36:53):
that's not exactly what i wanted right nice
down 24 hour fitness yeah i think that the industry term is
vintage right we call those vintage you know but they're for real i know the
gym you're talking about you do yeah exactly it probably probably hasn't changed
i haven't been yeah people don't want it to one funny thing that struck me as
i was you know preparing for this was it was a meme i had seen of a gym that had two escalators.
(37:19):
Do you know what i'm going to go i do.
And I was like, it had to be Photoshop. And then we're going to do this interview.
I'm like, wait, I think that was 24 Hour Fitness. It used to be.
So it used to be, but it's a real, the picture's legit, yes?
Well, the two escalators is one of the first, well, it actually was one of the
(37:41):
first 24 Hour Fitnesses that was out there and it's not a 24 anymore,
but I know the club and I know the meme and it's
you know it's the real deal like i get it so for
people who don't know it's it's an outdoor escalator leading up
to a gym where there's two escalators and a stairwell
in the middle and obvious jokes off of that i mean
(38:02):
i used to laugh too like a couple new york sports clubs i worked at
and equinoxes in the city you know people would get
on the elevator to go on the stairmaster right
right yeah no it's it's
it's quintessential it actually made a magazine cover back in
the day yes yes exactly you know
let's end with this because i don't want to leave out i know
(38:23):
you fit kid or fit america i was
involved with them way back at the start you have some partnerships
play works you know i've written a couple books i just self-published my first
kids book because i'm like i don't want to deal with the publishing world and
it's so important that we start so young with these kids yeah in the right way
i taught this thing called FitKid when my kids were growing up to spend time
(38:45):
with them and be involved with kids.
And I stopped doing it, Carl, because a bunch of the parents complained.
They came and watched after school and they said it wasn't bootcamp enough.
Now we're talking, I kid you not, kindergarten and first graders.
And I was like, there's something called deliberate play. There's something called- There is.
And sports psychology, if you would know it, you would know it.
(39:06):
Broad question. What do we do? What do we do?
Well, I can't take all credit for Playworks. Playworks was actually a relationship
that existed previously with 24-Hour Fitness.
I rekindled the relationship, which I'm really proud of.
It's all about purposeful play, to your point, recess.
If you look at the statistics on recess, it's pretty unbelievable about how
(39:29):
many kids in America don't have access to recess, don't actually engage in play.
And what Playworks does does an incredible job of doing is bringing their team
and businesses together to inspire, you know, play in people's day.
And, you know, the first thing we had to do is we had to revisit it as a team.
So we went through and we learned to play again and we played games,
(39:52):
you know, as a leadership team.
And now we've gone out to schools and we've engaged in it. And.
Trust me, it's one of those things you're like, you know, do I have time to
do this? Do I have time to go to a school, get out of my car and go play,
you know, dodgeball or, you know, hula hoop for an hour?
But, you know, I'm sure you saw the post, you know, I just, you know,
went to a school and I was like, it was one of the best days that I've had in the last year.
(40:16):
I don't think I've laughed out loud that much.
You know, I smiled, I high five the kids. You know, they asked some brilliant
questions, you know, from the mouths of babes when it came to what it was like
to run a company, participate in a company.
Why are you at my school? And, you know, do you have schools nearby?
You know, it was even my own kids are like, well, why don't you come play at our school?
(40:39):
And, you know, I had to say, you know, the difference between,
you know, schools that exist in Los Angeles. So it's brilliant conversation.
It's outstanding play. And I love our partnership at Playworks. It's dear to me.
That's awesome. And, you know, I kept saying we'll end with this,
but I get the question often.
I'm sure you do as well, you know, with connected fitness and gyms and,
(41:01):
you know, the more and more people putting together their own gyms,
you know, are gyms in trouble, whatever.
And I would say one of the main reasons I go to the gym is to be around people.
I think you know i think solo you
talk about like getting to show up at the beginning like i
love exercising by myself too much and then
(41:22):
yeah i'm going to the gym just the energy of that and there's nothing like a
group exercise class run by a phenomenal instructor that's right as 50 60 people
depending you know doing that same thing you know synchronized just sweating
the The best there is. Yeah. So gyms are fun.
That's exactly right. I want to go to the movies and be around people and laugh
(41:43):
with movies, and I want to watch Netflix at home. It's not one or the other. Both, right? Well said.
Well said. And you appreciate the movies and the gym that much more when you're doing both.
Thank you so much. I know I'm kind of all over you. Thank you.
I appreciate the time. Thanks for everything. Have a great day.
Much success. And let's do this again. Thank you.
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