Dan Giusti: The Chef Who Left Noma to Fix School Meals

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
So hello and welcome everyone toanother episode of Fugitive
Chef's podcast. Today we have a very special
guest and I will tell you more about why do I say a special
guest. But first of all, before
anything else, let's welcome Janjusti.
Thanks. Thanks a lot for accepting this
invite. And then welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much for having me. So, yeah, as I said, why do I
say special? You know, and I think there are
a few times I've said this because most guests I've had on

(00:21):
the podcast, many of them I haven't met in person.
I've just seen their stories inspiring and I just reach out
to them. Whereas in Dan's case, it's,
it's one of the few profiles which I had thought of because
as I have shared during the podcast, also, I've been very
vocal in my, in my, my Instagramor socials, is that I started
this podcast with the idea that when I left Norma, this was
three years ago. My situation of leaving Norma is

(00:42):
very different from Dan's, whichhe will share later.
But mine were around like immigration and paperwork.
And also just thinking what's, what's beyond in a country where
you've gone, you're working for the most esteemed restaurant,
earning a salary over there, notjust interning, contributing to
the economy. And then you get to just get
told that you, you'll be deported if you don't leave the
country in the next two months. And my situation there was, you

(01:03):
know, what else can I do? Because I don't want to go back
to restaurants. I would, I could do that back in
Spain, but I just, I, I thought that like, I think many people
think about those points in their carrier or their life,
like there could be a, a carrierbreak or go for a travel or a
trip. And for me it was, I still have
to keep paying bills and have towork next month.
But what else can I do beyond, beyond restaurants?
And that's where it started. And I was like, who else do I

(01:24):
know who has done similar pivots?
And Dan was one of them. I thought of, I thought of David
Silver. I thought of last from
Empirical. Yeah, they're all coming from
from a normal past because that was my context in that that
case. But which is why I say it's very
special, Dan. So for me, it's super, super
special that I have been thinking of this to have you on
the podcast following you a lot,sharing a lot of the things

(01:45):
which are widely iconic. I think the way you share your
your small notes on your on the Instagram.
I really like it. Thank you.
I think I'll start with the first one of them, the most
recent one of them I saw, which was about how people should just
or cook, should just get done with the idea of just calling
people chef and chef and chef. Which is why I haven't said chef
Dan, because for me, it's a little still uncomfortable
because I come like my career started back in India, but it's

(02:06):
saying the word chef is very common that I was in France.
It's very common. And then Norma and Mugaritz
normalized the idea of calling Andoni.
Andoni calling Renee. Renee.
Yeah. What what was that post about?
Let's just begin there. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, as
much as I loved my time in Noma,there was it was a habit when I
was there of people calling eachother chef all the time.
And I to be honest, I think the reason and some people alluded

(02:30):
to it in the comments, but I think the reason there was we
had so many folks working there.And as you know, many were, were
interns and would be there for alimited period of time.
And I think not everybody knew everyone's name to be fair.
So it was easy. Hey, chef, chef, chef.
And I, when I became the head chef, obviously I was in a place
of authority in a way. I would tell folks like, say

(02:51):
this person's name, not because I was against the term chef, but
I thought it as a kind of a lazyway to interact with people.
So that post got a lot of interesting feedback.
And there are a lot of people like, no, we use it for this
reason. And that reason for me, it was
just like, you know, people havenames and and they should be
called by their name. And I think whether you're just

(03:13):
calling someone chef or because you think of it a certain type
of terminology or it's because you forgot their name, I think
it can get all kind of blurred. And when everyone's going around
just being like chef, chef, chef, chef, I don't know, I
think there's something that it takes away from who a person is.
I think you can also argue it could take away from what that

(03:34):
word even means at some point. And and I'm the last person to
say like, oh, we have to prop upthis word chef.
But it should have a meaning. It should have a meaning.
And I do think that that, you know, not to go off on a
tangent, but I do think this is a conversation I had recently
with someone. I think there is a big
distinction between being a cookand being a chef.

(03:55):
And not to say 1's better than the other, but I think it's very
different. And I think in the conversation
I was having is I think you can be a really good cook and not be
a very good chef. And I think you can be a very
good chef and not be a very goodcook.
And I think the latter opinion is something, and I think a lot
of people disagree with with me on that.
But I think I'm a very good example of someone who, when I

(04:17):
was at Noma, I was the head chefand by no means was I the best
cook, not even remotely close tobeing the best cook, but I was
the head chef. So I think I'm a good example of
that. I've never been the best cook,
but I think when it comes to managing people, creating
systems, getting other, getting the best out of other people
when it comes to cooking, I think I'm good at that.

(04:37):
Anyway, I went, I went off on a tangent there.
I apologize. No, please don't.
I mean, this podcast, if there'sanything about, it's all about
tangents. So let's just make all the
tangents because also I want to,I want to tell this to the
audience who's listening, but I feel Dave Chang has recent on an
episode with you and I think that podcast, it's a long longer
one and an hour and a half and then that covers your career
very beautifully. So I would say people who were

(04:57):
listening to this and interest in dance career and also how
Dave has a very personal connection with you.
I think that's super interestingto see that.
But also what you've said right now reminds me of that episode
as well, because I think what I see as an outsider listening to
you or listening how you even approach the small topic of
being a chef. I think what sets you out in my
eyes is somebody aspiring to be Someone Like You, aspiring to

(05:18):
inspire more people who take pivots like you in a career.
Is that you? I not, I think there's an
absence of ego and an absence ofbeing too personal about I
achieved this and I did this, which that being the only
talking point you have in a conversation, you know, because
you could comfortably start a conversation all the time being
that I was a head chef at Norma.But I don't see that like now
for the past few years, I don't see that very often coming from

(05:38):
you. I think only then it's possible
because the the Noma I was in, nobody was called chef.
Only Kenneth, who was the head chef at that time used to call
him chef. And I feel it that sense.
It makes it very I mean, if we literally work like an army,
like a military operation at at times and a lot of communication
is what makes it, what makes theboat float.
And if if you're not calling outnames, I think that's going to
be a a complete disaster, you know, but I think.

(06:00):
That's a good point, yeah, Yeah.Before going further beyond with
this, I feel people listening toit who maybe do not know who you
are Dan. So just for me to tell them Dan
is somebody who was as we heard now ex head shepherd Noma and
today runs this business called Brigade Business Organizations
tuition. You also had recently the
Brigade summit which also sticksout.
Not every business has a summit for it.

(06:21):
Not every business has a cause, which is which is a noble cause
of something morally on the right path, what the business
needs. So that's that's who Dan is.
And that's where Dan is on the podcast because he's clearly
somebody who's the fugitive. I don't think Dan today wears an
apron every day or cooks every day or meets a guest every day.
But tell us, Dan, what is Brigade?
Let's start start with that first.
Yeah, it's a, it's a pretty simple concept.

(06:42):
Essentially Brigade is AI, thinkit's important to say it is a
business, it is a for profit business.
We haven't been very profitable yet and that was never the goal.
But it is a for profit business.So that's important to
distinguish where we place professional chefs into
institutional food service settings like in a public
school, like in a a prison system or a Senior Center to

(07:06):
help the existing kind of food service operation reach their
goals. And their goals are usually
really just improving the quality of food.
In many cases, these operations are often times serving what is
primarily a lot of processed andpackaged foods.
And they're looking to figure out a way to cook more, more in
house, more from scratch. So our chefs are working with

(07:27):
them to do that. And, and it's a full time
endeavor. We play chef, we hire chefs,
they work for Brigade and then we place them in these
institutions and they work therefull time for multiple years as
these transitions take time. And some of the organizations we
work with, some of the schools, school districts for example,
have over 100 schools, over 100 kitchens, just one.

(07:47):
So it, it's a big undertaking, but that in a nutshell is what
we do. So it's pretty, it's pretty
simple. We're basically, you know,
looking at all the principles wehave as professional chefs in a
well run kitchen that you would see in a restaurant or hotel and
say that those best practices are happening in those places to
make sure that the kitchen runs well, that the food that comes

(08:09):
out of the kitchen is timely andtasty.
Taking those things and applyingthem to institutional settings,
which for a variety of reasons those kitchens often times are
not operating that way. Not because the people who work
there aren't great, because theyare.
It's often times I say it's a thing I've said many times is
that institutional food is the way it is not because of the

(08:31):
people who've chosen to work in it.
It's because of the people who have not chosen to work in it,
which are chefs. A lot of chefs do not choose to
work in institutional food, which again, if if you look at
who a chef is, a chef is a person who's been trained to
cook, a person who's been trained to train other peoples
to cook to, to oversee operations that produce food.
And if you say let's let's take chefs out of the mix, it makes

(08:55):
it hard to do these things. So essentially what Brigade is
doing is adding, trying to get more chefs to go into these
spaces. And, and do you just take care
of like, say this matchmaking between chefs and institutional
catering or are you also like, Idon't know, consulting them on
what equipments they should have, what should be a kitchen
like sort of. 100% So our chefs are doing every.

(09:15):
This is another thing I think about, like when we first place
a chef and we talked to, say, a school district and they say
we're excited about having a chef.
I think the perception is a chefis someone who's going to come
in and they're going to help train staff to cook and they're
going to come up with recipes and that's it.
That's a big part of what we do.But as we know, chefs are very
resourceful people and they can provide a lot of value in a lot

(09:38):
of ways. So we're doing everything that
you could think a chef would do in any type of kitchen.
So yes, we're training staff. Yes, we're coming up with
recipes. We're helping these
organizations source the ingredients they're using.
We're helping organize the kitchens.
We're advising on which equipment to buy.
We're advising how to set up thekitchen, We're implementing

(09:58):
systems. So I always like classify a lot
of these things as like the boring stuff, you know, like the
outside folks want to hear about, like scratch cooking and
cooking seasonal food and this and that.
But for me, so much of the valuewe provide as chefs in these
institutions are these very infrastructural things.
Again, setting up systems of organization, food safety, the

(10:20):
stuff that's so integral to any professional kitchen, we do all
that as well, which again, I think is is some of the most
important work we do. And then I mean, I have so many
follow up questions for this business model that you're
talking about, but take us like take us behind, behind this like
behind brigade before, before Norma, when do you think like
food could be a career option orwhat was the first few career

(10:43):
options you thought coming out of school or how did that that
pan out? Yeah, food, food.
Being a chef was the only, well,not the only.
I mean, I as a child, I had a variety of things.
I think at one point I wanted tobe an archaeologist because of
Indiana Jones, and then I wantedto be a professional soccer
player because I played soccer. But the first real career that

(11:03):
was feasible was a chef. I grew up in a big Italian
family and food has always been important At that age when I was
young, obviously eating and I wasn't cooking the food.
But I have one aunt in particular who is, you know, she
doesn't take it serious, but she's a very serious cook and

(11:24):
she cooks excellent till this day.
And when we ate at her house andstill to this day, the food was
always good. And the older I got and when I
mean older at this time, I'm like 11/12/13.
I just kind of recognized that eating at her house was
different than eating at other people's houses, including my
own. My mother's my favorite person

(11:44):
on earth, but she admittedly, she's not passionate about
cooking. So I, I'm OK say OK, say that.
But my my one aunt, the food shemakes is incredible.
And like I said, the older I got, the more I started kind of
thinking about why. Why is the food that she makes
so good? And then I started to kind of
just appreciate that it was a different thing.

(12:06):
And I think the more I appreciated that it was a
different thing. And the more I saw and
recognized how by her cooking, she made so many people happy
and everyone wanted to eat at her house.
When you hated her house, you knew you were going to get a
good meal. That really excited me about the
prospect of cooking. And when I went into high
school, so I was 14, I went to ahigh school that was a very

(12:30):
competitive high school. So that first year high school,
everyone was already talking about where they're going to
college, what do they want, you know?
And I hadn't really thought about where I wanted to go to
college or for that matter, whatI wanted to do.
I was still kind of growing out of that phase, recognizing I
probably wasn't going to be a professional soccer player.
And I was like, you know what, maybe I should think about

(12:52):
cooking. And I and I went to a career
fair and there is a, a representative there from a
culinary school. And I spoke to her and she said,
if you're serious about this, you should get a job because
cooking at home is very different than cooking in a
professional kitchen. So I got a job in a restaurant
local to Washington, DC, becausethat's actually where I went.

(13:13):
I grew up, I was going to high school and I loved working in
the restaurant. So apart from kind of this
passion I had and saw from my aunt and what that was all
about, working in a restaurant, in the environment of working in
a restaurant, it was busy and you're running around and I
loved it. I always equated working in a

(13:33):
restaurant, even through my daysat Noma.
It's kind of like playing a sport.
I always felt it like it was kind of like playing a sport and
I really loved it. And kind of, I would say after
the first few months of working there of literally peeling
potatoes, cutting onions, doing prep work, I think I was pretty
hooked on like I never really considered another career that

(13:54):
was kind of it at that point, and I was probably 15.
And and then like from from that, that age, that point, you
know, being 15 when you were told to like if you if you want
to follow food restaurants, the place where you where you should
be. Yeah.
And after now, after now like being in, in restaurants of all
scales of being into now institutional catering, how much
of it as, as somebody who's beenthrough that Channel now you

(14:16):
would you say, if somebody come up to you and say has a passion
for cooking, would that be your first advice to them?
Because for me, who has been made for a much shorter amount
of than you in, in restaurants, in all hotels, restaurants,
stand alone restaurants and now in an R&D kitchen.
I, I wonder if that is itself enough.
How much of that advice is true today to somebody who you speak
to, who's passionate about food?Yeah, I think, I think if you,

(14:39):
well, if you, if you I talk to people actually relatively often
it's, I think it's pretty commonto actually talk to people who
are changing careers. You know, they're like 242526,
you know, they went to university, they got a job and
they're very passionate about cooking.
I think first of all, you need to, I, I don't think going into

(14:59):
a restaurant is necessarily whatyou need to do.
I think you need to, I think youneed to learn how to cook.
So you need to learn how to cooksomewhere.
So I don't think unfortunately, for example, like there's some
folks who come to us and they'relike, I, I want to become a
chef. Can I come work with brigade or
should I go work in a school? And my answer is no.

(15:19):
Like I don't think most institutional settings right now
are the best place to learn how to cook if you don't know how to
cook because a lot of them are are just starting to do more
cooking themselves. I think even if your goal is not
to work in a restaurant again, you need to learn how to cook
somewhere. And it's either you go to

(15:40):
school, you go to school, which I think is is an option.
I went to culinary school. If I could do it again, I think
there's another way to do it. And I think what I would advise
people is to go work somewhere. And it's probably, to be honest,
it's probably a restaurant, but it's probably a high volume
restaurant that is set up in a way where you're going to, it's

(16:04):
not fine dining. You're going to, you're going to
cook, you know, more basic foods, you know, salad dressings
and soups and make sandwiches and make basic foods.
But you're going to make them a lot.
You're going to, you're going todo it a lot, a lot of
repetition. And in those types of
restaurants, there's a menu that's a varied menu.

(16:25):
So you get exposed to a lot of things, but I think obviously we
know with cooking or any craft, like repetition is key.
And that's one thing you really don't get in culinary school.
You know, I always tell the story that I remember in
culinary school, in butchery class, I learned how to cut a
leg of lamb one time and it wasn't even by myself.

(16:46):
I split cutting the leg of lamb with a classmate.
So I didn't even cut a leg of lamb one time.
And I went to the Culinary Institute of America, which, you
know, in the United States is considered like, you know, the
top culinary school in a lot of circles.
And that was my experience there.
And of course, it costs, it costs a lot of money.
So I just think that if you, youneed to learn how to cook.

(17:07):
So back to the the to answer your question, I do think no
matter what career you want to take in food, whether you're an
influencer, whether you want to work in an institution, whether
you want to work in a restaurant, I think you need to
learn how to cook. And even like these days, like
sometimes I speak to culinary classes or even folks who are

(17:29):
taking like food studies classesat university and a lot of them
are looking to get into food in kind of a more intellectual way.
Like a, there's a lot of students in culinary schools now
who you could tell right out of culinary school, like they don't
want to be in the kitchen. They're like trying to figure
out like, what career can I do that's not in the kitchen, which
there's nothing wrong with that.But I think as someone who wants

(17:52):
like, for example, if you want to start a business, I can't
tell you how many people I've spoken to in the last 10 years
who've come to me and they're like, oh, I'm starting this
business and we're making this food product or we're doing this
and they don't know how to cook themselves.
So the main function of their business is a product that if
they knew how to cook, they would be able to really work on

(18:14):
it. But they are seeking outside
advice to help them understand. So I guess what I'm getting at
is knowing how to cook is so it is like at the core of all these
different types of businesses, but if you don't know how to
cook and you're kind of, it's all like theoretical, I think
you're at a loss. So my advice to anyone who wants
to get into a food career, even if it's developing a product,

(18:36):
you should learn how to cook 1st.
And I think you'd be much betteroff.
And I think, again, there's onlya few ways to genuinely learn
how to cook right now. Yeah, I mean, I, I completely
agree with you. And I would actually even go
further and say that what you said about repetition and how
you'll get better at it yourselfand you'll also keep learning,
keep getting better. And that's why you need to start
lower into lesser complicated things.
But I would also go in further and say that by doing that, by

(18:58):
doing those repetitions, you would know the biggest answer to
any question, Do you want to be in it or not?
Because if not, what's the pointof spending that?
That CIA is not cheap. Where I work is not cheap.
So that's a big factor. You will open your eyes.
That's 100% right. I think that was kind of the
advice from the the representative from the culinary
school that I met when I was a kid.

(19:19):
Like you need to see if this is really for you, because even
coronary school like to be fair,like coronary school is set up
and such like AI mean there are some culinary schools I feel
that are set up in a more practical way.
Like when you go to the CoronaryInstitute of America, it is
like, there's a beautiful campusand the kitchens are beautiful.
And, you know, you could go there and probably not really be

(19:42):
like cut out to want to work in a like, a restaurant.
But go there and come out and beexcited to go through two years
of culinary school and then comeout and be like, wait a minute,
like working in a restaurant is not what I thought it was going
to be like. So, yeah, I think, I think
making sure that your investmentis, is something that is worth
it. It's probably worth just going

(20:03):
to work in in some kind kind of high volume plays for sure.
Exactly. No, definitely, definitely
knowing, knowing that fact. I mean knowing that answer is,
is pretty important if you want to keep continuing in this
career, which requires a lot of passion.
It's not. If you can't equate the
salaries, you can't equate the working hours is getting better
now, but you can't equate any ofthat.
That's it. And I, one thing I get
frustrated about is, you know, you often hear people that are,

(20:25):
and this is like such a topic these days, people who are
talking about like, you know, the restaurant industry.
I work in a kitchen. It's terrible.
It's too many hours. You don't get paid enough.
Look, I am as someone who runs abusiness, I, we pay people well.
I am, I think you should pay people well.
You should treat people well. You should make sure people
happy are happy. All these things like

(20:47):
1,000,000%, but I just don't understand that.
Like people choose to work in restaurants and then they
complain about it like it's a hard career.
Like I actually enjoyed working in restaurants.
I enjoyed working in restaurant kitchens.
I liked working in restaurant kitchens.
I don't think it's for everyone,you know?

(21:07):
But I also see as someone who runs a business who provides
other options for chefs where wepay a good amount of money, we
provide benefits, we provide a better schedule, people still
choose not to do that and they choose to work in restaurants.
So I, I don't have much sympathyfor people who work in
restaurants who then complain about it.

(21:28):
Like that's a choice. You can choose to work used to
work in restaurants, or you can choose to work in this
restaurant for this restaurant. I think it's weird to me to want
to like to choose to work in a restaurant and want that
restaurant to be everything you want it to be.
You want it to be the best restaurant in your city, but you
also want it to pay really well and you also want it to be a

(21:50):
great schedule. It's just not how the world
works anywhere. It's it's very odd to me, you
know? So I just think that people
should take a think a little more critically about where they
want to fit in into the food system.
And then like on that note, likewhen you came out of like your
your first few years at CIA, youfinished the degree, I guess you
did some externships while you were there.

(22:11):
What was your, the first kind ofrestaurants you worked at?
Like having all this because I think CIA also opens a lot of
doors, right? So like I mean you had options
where what are the places you ended up at?
Yeah. So just starting with like I
did, I did my externship at Oriole, which was a restaurant.
And so I graduated coronary school in 2004.
So my externship was 2003. That was a Charlie Palmer
restaurant, New York City at thetime, a more notable restaurant.

(22:35):
You know, I was definitely on the tail end of its popularity.
I think it's more popular in like the mid 90s, but it was
like a busy fine dining restaurant in Manhattan that
would like, you know, I will sayit was like a, a real restaurant
though. There was like 5 people cooking
on the line and it was supposed to be fine dining.
It was busy. It wasn't like a more, you know,
like a Noma where you have a lotof people.

(22:58):
It was like 5 people on the linecooking.
So that was a great experience. Then immediately following
culinary school, I actually wentto Italy for a year.
I worked in a a Michelin star restaurant that was kind of a
funny restaurant in the sense that during the week we would do
like 5 to 6 covers a night like nothing, literally nothing.
And then on the weekends we would do these like big

(23:19):
banquets. But it was a great chance to
learn how to make like, for example, we had a menu, but
nobody would really follow the menu.
Like guests would come in and they'd be like, can I get, I
know porcini mushrooms are in season, so can I get raw porcini
mushrooms on a plate with Parmesan cheese and olive oil?
And we would just do it. So that was like a neat thing to
kind of see what that was like, but not after Italy.

(23:40):
I actually, so this is somethingI did for a few years.
The restaurant that I got a job at when I worked in high school
was at a restaurant group calledClyde's Restaurant Group, which
in the Washington, it's a Washington, DC area chain, if
you will. It's about, I think they're 12
restaurants. So it's not like a chain like
everywhere. It's 12 restaurants.

(24:01):
And that's where I worked in high school.
And then after Italy, I actuallywent back to work for them in
one of their restaurants that had about 550 seats.
And I was a sous chef and I was 20 years old and I was
overseeing people and it wasn't fine dining.
It wasn't it was very casual food.
And we're talking casual casual here.
And to me, like, not to skip ahead, but, and I worked in

(24:24):
restaurants for 20 years and half of the 20 years I worked in
restaurants, I worked for that restaurant group.
And nobody's, no one's ever. You've never heard of it.
Most people have never heard of it, but it's a very successful
restaurant group and I honestly think that by working there, it
gave me an upper hand in my career in general.
Very high volume, very busy, very successful, very oriented

(24:47):
on systems, which I think is really important, which I think
oftentimes in particularly independent restaurants can get
away from having systems becausethey don't need them.
They can kind of get away without them, if you will.
But I worked there. I was, you know, a kid and then
then I worked for, they have like a fine dining restaurant
called 1789. I worked there and then I went

(25:09):
to Las Vegas. So I went back like I kind of
had this like identity crisis. I was like, I like working in
this setting of Clyde's this like high volume casual
environment. But I always kept going back to
this like, am I, it was kind of a confidence thing, like am I
good enough to work at the highest levels?
So then I went to Las Vegas. I was like 23 to Guisabois.

(25:34):
So in like 2007, I think it was like 2006, 2007, all the big
French chefs, Guisabois, Joel Robichon, they all open
restaurants in Las Vegas. And I was excited about that.
So I went and worked at Guisabois and that was the first
time I think I worked at like a really like kind of intense fine
dining restaurant. Like we had carpet in the

(25:56):
kitchen. We all wear, you know, braggart
jackets and we had granite countertops and the multini
range and the, you know, it's just like a different level of a
kitchen. And I really loved it.
I loved it. I didn't like Las Vegas, but I
liked that restaurant. So I got a little taste.
That was like the first time I think I really got a taste of
like true fine dinings. And then, and then I mean, it's,

(26:20):
it's not a long story that I went back to 1789, this
restaurant in DCI became the head chef.
I was there for about 3 years and then I went to Noma.
So like I kind of went back and forth.
I kind of went back and forth oflike high volume, more casual,
but I, I felt the need to like prove myself.
And before we get into Noma, then I would like to hear

(26:41):
because one thing that sticks out to me is, is I mean, at
least in my context when I see it, when somebody's young and
stepping into a role like being a sous chef at A1, like 550 car
restaurant, I bet you were heading a team of people older
than you, people who maybe not in a culinary school, more
experienced than you. How does that come?
Because that's what he spoke earlier about, like people being
great cooks and being great chefs.
How do you take that personally?Did you do things like which

(27:04):
many of us do, of hiding the age, acting older, not letting
that question ever come up? Or how, how did you, how did you
get past that role? I think, I think I had a lot of
tough times. I think I, you know, I've always
tried to be like a nice person and there's no question that
there's no hiding my age. You know, I think people saw I

(27:25):
was young. I think all all, all I could do
in those settings was recognize that people that I was managing
had more experience than me. Whether they went to culinary
school or not didn't really matter.
Like these are people who had more experience than me in the
kitchen. They had way more experience

(27:46):
than I did in life. And I think I had a lot of
moments that that showed that, you know, I, I try to be like in
my position, it's hard. It's a hard thing to do because
you have a job to do. So you've been put in this
position, but surely you make a lot of mistakes where you kind

(28:07):
of overstep or you say somethingwhere clearly you're kind of out
of your depth. You know, like you're not
really, you're not really that maybe the right, I don't want to
say you're not the right person for the job.
But at the same time, I think that, you know, I always say
this like working in a restaurant, because the other
thing is like in a fine dining restaurant, let's say Noma, you

(28:31):
don't really need to manage. You don't need to manage anyone
because everyone has gone through a lot to get there and
everyone's doing whatever they need to do to do what's right.
And if you're working in a, in ahigh volume environment, you
know, it's often times you have a lot of folks that this is a,
this is a career, this is a job for them.
And not to say that they can't care a lot because I think no

(28:52):
matter where you should work, where you work, whether someone
wants to be a chef or not be a chef, hopefully everyone cares
what they're doing and they, they're being thoughtful about
it. But you need to really manage
folks. You need to get that out of them
sometimes because maybe someone's just there because it
was a good job and then they're just there and they're not doing
things the way they're meant to be done.
And you have to act. You have to actually hold people

(29:15):
accountable, which you know, if you don't have to hold people
accountable, which I think in a place like Noma, you don't
really have to. Everybody's just kind of doing
everything they need to do. Holding people accountable is
very challenge. It's the hardest thing and like
being consistent. And, and I think when you're 20
years old, 19 years old, you don't even know how to do that
properly. So I think for me, I don't think
I was very successful. I think, I think I relied on

(29:38):
being a respectful person, beingnice to people, but surely that
didn't make me an effective manager.
I think that I was able to hold the line enough where again, I
followed the rules. I was respectful.
I worked very hard. But I don't think by any means,
like if I look at myself now in the way I think of things versus

(29:58):
then. And honestly, when I went to Las
Vegas and I came back from Las Vegas and was the chef of this
restaurant and I, I started whenI was 24, Most of the people in
that restaurant were older than me, particularly in the front of
the house. The front of the house team
there had been there for a long time and they really didn't like
me. They actually really didn't like
me. I, I think when I came back from

(30:19):
Las Vegas, I had a chip on my shoulder.
You know, I'd worked in this, this fancy restaurant.
I was back from Las Vegas and I really probably made every
mistake you could make as like ayoung chef.
I was trying. I was, I was changing everything
on the menu that, you know, theywere like, this is the kind of
restaurant that like every president of the United States

(30:39):
would eat at, politicians would eat at.
It had been there for 40 years. You know, it was a busy
restaurant. And it was the kind of
restaurant that people came for certain things.
Like at the time it was rack, rack of lamb, it was Creme
brulee, it was Caesar salad, these kinds of things.
And instead of coming in and being and recognizing like, OK,
this is what people come here toeat, I took all those things off

(31:02):
the menu. I took them off the menu, put
other things on the menu. And just, you know, I wasn't
very patient with people. Like I said, I, I probably made
every mistake you can make as a chef.
And I think for that reason, a lot of people didn't enjoy being
around me. I don't think I did a very good
job. I don't think I was a very good
chef, both in terms of management and in terms of the

(31:23):
food. So, you know, to answer your
question again, is I don't thinkI did a good job.
Like I, I, I think that's a really challenging place to be.
And I would suggest to anyone, you know, it's, it's of course
easier said than done. If you're 22 years old, 23 years
old and you get offered a head chef position, you're like,
yeah, I'm going to take it. And I'm not saying that there

(31:43):
aren't people out there who could do that and be great at
it, But I also think it's very difficult because I don't care
who you are when you're 21/22/23, both from a cooking
perspective, but also from a from a life perspective, a
maturity perspective. It is the likelihood that you're
in a place where you can commandthe attention and get the buy in

(32:05):
of a large group of people who'solder than you and more
experienced than you, both in kick cooking and in life.
It's, it's low, Like it's a hardthing to do, you know?
No, definitely. And and how do you factor in
like, because you also mentionedlike having a chip on your
shoulder, you know, and there there comes also, yeah, no
matter. I think CIA does open you a lot
of doors, but you can't deny that it also is a thing with you
there. I mean, not just seeing somebody

(32:27):
who's their boss and is 19 and 20, but also knowing they come
from the school. And this factors in because
that's something which happened for me.
This India, in India, for example, in my context is very
common college. Like culinary arts graduates end
up being head chefs or sous chefs at hotels straight out of
college and commanding a team ofpeople who are great cooks but
can't use a computer, can't makeduty rosters, can't order
ingredients. So that's why they end up there.

(32:47):
And that's a very uncomfortable position, which is why I left
India in the 1st place. But how is that for you?
Does CIA factor in in in that step of, I don't know, balance
ideology and stuff? I think so.
I'm sure when I was younger and like, people knew, like, oh,
this person went to culinary school and now they're like a
chef. I'm sure it did in retrospect.

(33:07):
Like, yeah, that's such a thing out of like culinary school.
It's tough because like culinaryschool has become this thing
where it's like they need to justify like what you can do out
of culinary school because they're charging you X amount of
money. So they're like, yeah, out of
culinary school. You can become a sous chef at,
like you said, it is like that'swhere a lot of people out of

(33:28):
culinary school end up sous chefs at big corporations
because that's kind of like their job descript, like the job
requirements often times is likeculinary school.
Like for example, when we work with institutions, they're
always like, what are your requirements for your chefs?
And they always say like they have they all gone to culinary
school? I'm like, no, we don't care less
about culinary school. Like like that's the last thing

(33:49):
we're looking for is culinary school.
But I do think that culinary school, like I remember when I
was doing my internship or externship where they go during
school, that was like a real stereotype.
Like you're the kid from culinary school who thinks he
knows everything. And you know, like those
restaurants that are often seeing people from culinary

(34:10):
school, there is a very negativestereotype.
It's a very negative stereotype of like a young person who
doesn't have that much experience.
And, and obviously not everybodygoing to culinary school is like
at the beginning, like is a young person, if you will.
But I think they're, but I, but I, I also say on a tangent, the
people I went to culinary schoolwith who are not like they were

(34:31):
career changers. They were by far the best
students. Like I had people in my, I was
18 when I went to culinary school.
The other folks who were like 25262730.
I had a guy who was like 45. They were the best students.
They were serious. They were like, I'm, I've made a
conscious effort to leave whatever I was doing and now I'm
doing this and I'm serious. You're 18, you're 19.

(34:52):
You're, you're kind of joking around.
You're learning how to cook. But yeah, I don't, I don't
think, I don't think the perception in general within the
industry of culinary school is positive.
I I don't think it, I don't, I don't know if I've ever talked
to anybody within the industry who's like, oh, you went to
culinary school. Nice.
It's it's more outside of the industry where people are like,

(35:13):
oh, culinary school. Yeah.
Like that's cool. That's interesting for this
person's a chef because they went to culinary school within
the industry. It's kind of a funny thing.
I really think it's not. I don't think it's that positive
of a thing, you know? No.
And I think that that's that's the most ironic thing.
And of course I have to also addthat now the proportion is
changing. So now when you walk into most
restaurants, at least where I amin Spain, most of the staff, the

(35:36):
proportion of chefs from culinary school is higher.
So it's an easier thing for a person young entering in, but
also what you said, I think mostopinions in our industry
ironically comes from people who've never been in the
industry. And that's that's how a lot of
things and perceptions work. Be about Norma, be about base by
internships. Most of it is coming from people
who have never stepped in, whichis why we need platforms like

(35:57):
these beat podcast, beat things less professional.
But I think that at least the people listening out can know
your experience and, and, and, and that I think that's the best
moment for me to to hear from you.
How was Norma for you? Because I think it was a very
iconic moment for Noma as well. Noma achieved it's it's the
number one category in the 50 best with you.
You also became a head chef veryquick.

(36:18):
Tell us, tell us about how was how was Noah for you?
Yeah, no, for me, I mean, it waskind of a crazy, a crazy
experience. You know, when I first went
there, I went, as you know, I was able to get a visa to stay
there. And when I first moved to
Copenhagen, there is no promise of a position.
And I was lucky that, you know, it's rare someone left kind of

(36:39):
quickly without notice. And I was able to get a paying
position as a chef to party. And I had a visa.
And then basically, Long story short, you know, I was there for
like 6-7 months as a chef to party.
And I guess that was like 2829. And I just felt like, first of
all, like I had never worked in a restaurant like that.

(37:00):
And in every way, shape or form,the intensity, the, you know,
the expectations from guests, working with a staff that was so
international who had so much experience working in different
parts of the world, like I didn't have that experience
working with new ingredients, different techniques, all these
things, the list goes on. And after like 6-7 months, man,
I really thought I was like justnot doing a good job.

(37:21):
Like I thought I sucked. Like literally I was like, I was
embarrassed to the extent that Iliterally went, this is after
really trying to do whatever I could to get there.
I moved there after 6-7 months. I went to Matt Orlando, who at
the time was the head chef. And I was like, Matt, I don't
know what to do. Like I literally feel like I am

(37:44):
like a liability to this restaurant.
Like I think it was like, I havefelt this responsibility, like
anybody working there like this,this restaurant has such a name.
And if you're working there, youbetter be able to do the deal.
And I felt like I wasn't. So I was like, man, I don't know
what to do. Like maybe I should leave.
Like, I don't know if I can do this.
And literally in that conversation, he's like, well, I

(38:08):
need to tell you this, in a year, I'm leave.
I'm leaving to start my own restaurant.
And we mean him. And Renee had decided that they
wanted me to become the next head chef.
And I was like, you know, equally as excited as I was
like, Oh my God, like scared. But of course you're not going
to say no to that. So then it was like, OK, so then

(38:29):
basically for the next year, they really kind of like tried
to bring me up to speed. And bringing me up to speed was
not just about, you know, the food and kind of the place, but
really like, who are all these people who eat here?
The people have eaten here many times, the people who are
supporters of Noma in the very beginning.
And that was such a big part of that restaurant as, you know,
like just understanding all these folks that come around.

(38:52):
And and also for me, like I was working at a restaurant in
Washington, DC, like I didn't know who all these chefs were
who were coming to eat. And like, I didn't know that I
was not like, I feel like everybody else in that
restaurant because they were, you know, primarily from
different parts of the world, traveled a lot, had worked in a
lot of different restaurants. They all knew who all these
chefs were and this that and this restaurant and that

(39:14):
restaurant. I mean, I barely the only reason
I even knew what Noma was was because someone gave me the Noma
book, the Gray one. And then I was like, this looks
amazing. And so like I the 50 best list,
like I wasn't super familiar about it when I went there.
So it was a big learning curve to get there.
And I think one of the biggest hurdles though, was that I saw

(39:37):
several people in that restaurant who in my mind would
have been like the clear choice for that job above me.
And I always remember when they announced that I was going to
take this job and it was like crickets.
I think it was like confusion, like the staff was like, I think

(39:58):
it was like confusion. Some people I don't maybe they
didn't even know who I was. It was like, it was like kind of
awkward because I think there was like, wow, okay, like this
guys, Matt, Matt Orlando was like the golden child, you know?
He's been places, yeah. Yeah, he was like, he was at Per
SE, he was at the Fat Duck. He he's like this very like he

(40:19):
had a presence, you know, he's like the nicest guy as well,
super talented. And so I, I definitely had
really big shoes to fill and I was super nervous about it.
But that's, that's kind of how Igot into it.
And then once it started, I mean, it was like, I think
myself, it was like a big transitional period when I
became head chef around a similar time, some other people

(40:40):
left. Some of the guys who were chef
to parties became sous chefs. So it's kind of a little bit of
like, you know, like a like a new group.
Yeah. So I think we felt a tremendous
amount of pressure. And it didn't help that like we
all took over. This transition happened in

(41:01):
January coming out of the winterbreak of 2013.
And that upcoming 50 best, whichfor what it's worth, all the
voting and everything ends in like October.
So it was before we took over. But that upcoming 50 best, we
became #2 and as much as like, again, it sounds so silly to
even talk about it this way. But of course, for us, we were

(41:24):
like, OK, it's just like, this is a bad feeling.
Like we, we lost it. We lost it.
That was the feeling, you know, And then, you know, we, we got
it back. We got #1 back.
But the whole experience there for me was, was a combination
of, you know, it was, it was intense.

(41:45):
I was, I was in a position whereI feel like, you know, the sky
was the limit in terms of like, there was no like I'm doing this
job perfectly. There was always room for
improvement. And I think for me that was
really good because it pushed meto get to a place where I never
thought I could get. I, I always tell people like you

(42:06):
need to figure you need to find your Noma.
Because for me, it pushed, it pushed me to a place, it showed
my, it showed me what I was capable of doing.
And I don't know if I would haveever gotten there on my own, to
be honest. And it was like the greatest
gift I could have gotten becauseit's also what ultimately gave
me the confidence to look at myself and get to where I am

(42:27):
now. I don't think I would have ever
chosen to work, you know, and dowhat I do now because I don't
know if I would have had the confidence to do that.
Yeah, I think it's amazing. It's a great place to be.
I think. I mean, the way you explain
intense and and the way you start through the podcast,
you've told us of how the kind of restaurants you worked at and
all of them sound intense. And then being in no minor place
where I don't know how it was back when you were, but when I

(42:49):
was there, I mean, intense is intense.
But then it's, it's conditions where you have the keys to the
restaurant and you are officially working five days,
but you know, if you have prep to do, you can enter there
wherever you want. And there could be days you have
to pick pine needles to in the morning and you're doing it.
And on top of that, your role ofbeing being the head chef and
having all the tough conversations with all these
rotations and all these things happening and the PR work.

(43:10):
So I think it can all be intense.
And from that operation, becauseyou have very often said that
you did not leave Noma because of burnout, because a lot of
people leave restaurants becauseof burnout.
So that's been one of your statements and what leads to a
person like you to say, you knowthis is it in Noma and there is
some other idea because I do not, I know that was brigade was
not the first idea, but why did you say enough over there?

(43:30):
Yeah, I think as much as I didn't, as much as like I loved
working there and as much as I would definitely wouldn't say it
burned out. I think that position, that
particular role as the head chefin that restaurant, there's a
time limit to it. It's intense.
It takes a toll on you and I think it was time to move on.
And when it was time to move on,it wasn't like it's time to move

(43:53):
on. This is what I'm going to do.
It was it's time to move on. What am I going to do?
And you know, for what it's worth, like I put my notice in
there. When it was time to finally put
my notice in, it was a year before I left.
So we're talking like, you know,I started having this thought,
you know, now I wouldn't say 2 years before I left, but like a
year and a half, you know, we'retalking 18 months before I left.

(44:17):
I'm starting to think like, what's next?
And I really just had some kind of deep, deep conversations with
myself, like what, what am I doing?
And what do I like? Why am I in this industry?
Like, why is it to do this? And my first answer was no, I am
not in this industry to be the chef of a fine dining

(44:37):
restaurant. That's not why I got into
cooking. Why did I get into cooking?
I got into cooking because it's really was like kind of about
the power of food and making people happy with food.
And as much as of course we weremaking people happy at Noma,
that's not the happiness I was talking about.
Like it was more about like, I think one thing that really got
me and I, and now I see more of it in the work we do is the

(45:00):
exchange of cooking for people. Very often where you do and
where you do in a home setting or in a family setting where
you're feeding, you're cooking for people every day.
And by doing that, you're takingcare of them.
And by doing that, you can really have a, a real effect on
their life both physically and emotionally.
If you're cooking for someone every day versus cooking for

(45:22):
someone on a special occasion ora once in a blue moon thing.
So like that's kind of where it started.
Like I was like, that's what I want to do.
I want to be in a position wherethe food that I'm responsible
for creating is really having a real effect on people's lives.
And it's. And to do that, we need to be
cooking for people often. And then it was like, OK, well,
like, these are the questions. I think if you answer these

(45:46):
questions, you start to figure out where you want to go.
Who do you want to cook for? Who do you want to cook for?
Do you want to? And this is like the thing you
hear a lot about, of course, from Fine Donnie Chefs.
I was tired. Like, I can't tell you how many
times I've heard this from chefswho are applying to our
positions. Like, I am tired for cooking for
rich people. Now, look, I like to go out to

(46:06):
eat at nice restaurants. I am not rich.
I will spend money on those places because I enjoy eating
there. I enjoy getting, you know, what
I will say is there's no question that when you're at a
place like Noma, there are days where you're working really hard
and there's a lot of emotions flying.
And you hear some comment from aguest like, you know, like you

(46:29):
could tell, like they could careless about the dining
experience. They're they're there to check
it off a list. It's pretty frustrating.
It's pretty demoralizing. So, or, and you know, there are
other restaurants where you know, trying your best and
you're cooking and you're doing this.
And then like a guest is like complaints about this or, you
know, something happens. So I think there's a lot of that

(46:49):
feeling in, in in high end restaurants where people are
like chefs are like, I work so hard and for what?
So I get that, I get that. But for me it was more the other
way. It's like, like, I don't want to
cook for these people. It's not about I don't want to
cook for these people. And the same thing.
It's I, it's not that I don't want to work in restaurants.
And I think that's dangerous too.

(47:10):
I think it's a little dangerous when you're doing something just
because you don't want to do something else.
I don't want to cook for rich people.
A rebellious child, you know? Yeah.
I your mother's offering you food.
And, like, I don't want to eat the food even if you're hungry.
You just dig in a position that you want to be.
Rebellious instead of right. It's it's like you need to find
what you want to do. How about what you don't like

(47:31):
answering? Knowing that you don't want to
cook in a restaurant. Knowing that you don't want to
cook for a certain type. OK, that's good, but you need to
find out what you want to do. And for me, I know I wanted to
cook for people who needed it. I wanted to cook for people and
sometimes needed it doesn't always mean like obviously in a

(47:52):
lot of ways where we're cooking,we are cooking.
It's unfortunate, but it is the fact of the matter.
Particularly in schools, there are a lot of kids who absolutely
depend on those meals that we'recooking because they're not
eating elsewhere. And that is the fact of the
matter. But also like people who need
it, people who depend on it in the sense of like institutions
is an interesting place because these are folks who don't even

(48:14):
really have choice in the matter.
Like in a lot of institutions, like the food that's available
to you is what you're eating. And even if you, you know, you
might have some money, but like,depending on the circumstances,
like that's the food you're eating.
And so for me, I wanted to be ina position where we were part of
cooking food that, you know, again, people were really kind
of depending on those meals and they don't really have much of A

(48:35):
choice in the matter. And that was the next kind of
answer to the question. So that's where I that's was
the, the kickoff. Like, what am I like, how do you
do that? How do you, how do you check
those boxes in my first idea? Because again, I don't think
institutional food in general could have been further down the
road like from my mind of like areal career.

(48:57):
It was like, maybe I can start like a fast casual fast food
restaurant that the price is low.
It could compete with, you know,a McDonald's, but it's a
wholesome meal. So people who, you know, don't
have a huge budget can go there.They can eat there regularly.
That was kind of the starting point.
And then the main, there's a fewthings that derailed that for

(49:17):
me, one of which was, I think itwould be very challenging to do
that and compete with a McDonald's because obviously the
scale at which a McDonald's is and the economy of scale and all
these things. But the real one that kind of
did it for me was food waste. There's so much food waste.
And you know, I, I find it always interesting because you

(49:38):
know, there's always like new chains coming out new, like
restaurant chains, new fast casual chains popping up and
they pop up and they have a lot of values and they're very, you
know, they're sustainable and responsible.
But to me, like, if you're new, you can't be that responsible or
sustainable because like you're building new buildings, you're
cooking more food that wasn't being cooked before.

(50:00):
Surely now you're wasting more food that wasn't.
So I, I didn't like the idea of that.
I was like, we already have a lot of food.
There are already a lot of kitchens.
Like, do we need more kitchens? Do we need more food?
And then at the time this again,this is like 2015 and the Obama
administration was in the White House in the United States.

(50:21):
And Michelle Obama was like a huge proponent of school food
and she talked about it a lot. Therefore, you heard about it a
lot. And, you know, I, I think it was
like a, an article that crossed,crossed my computer screen and
it was like just like a flash oflike, that's it institutional
food. It wasn't even like school food.
It was like institutional food. I was like, it literally checks

(50:44):
all the boxes. The kitchens.
There's kitchens everywhere. Kitchens everywhere in schools
and hospitals and senior centersin prisons.
Most of those kitchens are underutilized, under equipped,
in bad condition, but they're there.
You don't need to build new kitchens.
There's tons of kitchens. There are people working in
these spaces. Most of those people have not

(51:05):
been trained to cook. The food is already being made,
so we're not making more food. It's just that the food is not
particularly good often times. And then you got people there
who who depend on those meals and they have to eat those meals
and they're there every day and you're cooking for them every
day. It literally checked every
single box. Like I'll tell you, I went from

(51:26):
not really knowing to like knowing in like 24 hours.
It was like, that's it, institutional food.
And then the more I thought about it, I was like, and chefs
don't even work in these spaces.Really.
A lot of chefs do not choose to work in these spaces.
So the whole impetus of Brigade was just that it was like, we're
going to get more chefs to work in these spaces.

(51:48):
How we're going to do it? How does that look?
No idea, but that is what we're going to do.
And that was it. That was it.
Yeah, wow. I mean, and I think what I what
I mean, it's inspirational story.
I think it's, it's also funny because most of these great
stories, even like startups seemlike all these great ideas
unfortunately seem like so obvious.
And then you look around and it's like, oh, how come nobody's

(52:09):
doing anything about it? That's very, that's, that's the
one thing with most common greatideas, you know, And for me,
what I see from you, all the work that you do, I see very
constantly like you're somebody who's who's not pivoting from
that message. Your message is very clear of
like how to motivate people to get into these kitchens.
So I would like to hear from you, like how do you do this?
Because how can we do this? That on this podcast, for
example, I speak to Pat Clifford, who says that a

(52:31):
million people every day open a lace packet.
He works for PepsiCo as the R&D chef.
He says, how am I not as important as Rene's or how do
people not know my name? Because I think this is one
thing. Also people, especially chefs,
look for recognition of some sorts, if not of them per SE,
maybe the collective as such. You know how chefs coming from
restaurants in Copenhagen feel like collective and feel that's

(52:51):
a great place to be working at. Or last week we had Sandhya,
who's working for Future Food Institute, creating regenerative
economies, regenerative cities, re educating people about food
in schools, food in cities, how it can work.
What are the things that you think then that we need to do to
be able to appreciate these professions so people feel
motivated and Brigade's job becomes a little more easier?

(53:11):
Yeah. I honestly, I think I don't.
I think there's only so much that we can do.
I mean, I, I feel that way, obviously as someone who has
followed us on Instagram, you know, I'm like, it's like a,
it's like a broken record. We're always looking for people,
always advertising. I honestly think that and the
gentleman that you were just Speaking of, like the reason

(53:32):
that nobody knows who he is and people know who Renee is, is,
is, is, is certainly recognition.
It's it's, you know, no one's going to think of the R&D chef
of PepsiCo as being a good chef.No one's going to think of the
chef of a school as a good chef.No one's going to, you know,
that's just what it is. But if you're the chef of the

(53:52):
best restaurant in the world, obviously you're a great chef.
That's who people want to know about.
So that is just how we recognizethings.
And recognition is awards. You know, I say this all the
time and I, and I get mixed feedback via social media, but I
think awards in the way they're set up don't make any sense.
I first of all, I don't even think they're like valid like

(54:14):
this. Different people get the awards
every year, which means that they're not, you know, because
in most places, if they were truly giving the awards out to
people who deserve them, you'd probably get a lot of people
getting the same awards over andover again.
But if you give the awards out to the same people and over and
over again, then most people gettired of that.
But if you give the awards out to different people, then more

(54:36):
people are interested in those awards because they've received
did too. So it's like, so it's, it's a
bit of a game to keep people engaged in the award system.
But then the awards are not recognizing anything else really
outside of restaurants. You know, you get a few kind of
auxiliary awards here and there where they give out something,
but there's no real awards goingout to people outside of

(55:00):
restaurants. You know, it's a very narrow
scope. Why aren't there awards for food
service in general? I think the media goes the same
way. You know, sure, we get we get as
a company because of my background and that's the only
reason we get recognition. They people do pieces on us.
People write about us. People have written about me.
I'm on this podcast, but I thinkthat generally, like even school

(55:24):
food, like people write about school food now at the start of
school in the United States, people want to write a story now
that's it. You want to write a story about
school food right now. But if more people are writing
about this and that, like the other day, the biggest story in
food in the United States and probably one of the biggest
stories in food in the world wasthat 11 Madison Park is going to
start serving meat again. Like who cares?

(55:45):
Who cares? Like it doesn't, It's like so
stupid like like if they want todo that, like let them do it.
Like it doesn't even matter. Like it's literally meaningless.
That's meaningless. If they want to do that, it's
one restaurant, let them do it. And all these other things are
happening to all the people you just mentioned and the things
they're involved in. Think of a PepsiCo and they
change something just incrementally.

(56:07):
If they incrementally take a little bit of sugar out of
something, how impactful that isversus 1 restaurant going vegan.
It literally has, no, it doesn'teven matter.
So it's like it's just the recognition of things.
And for me, anything happening at scale is the most
interesting. I am so fascinated and

(56:27):
interested in people doing things at scale.
And I wish there was just more conversations, more talk.
But until people feel, until theaverage person looks at a chef
who works in a school with respect, it's going to be hard
to get chefs to say, I want to do this because it and it's a
lot to ask a chef. It's easy for me.

(56:48):
I was a chef in Noma. It's easy for me to say, yeah,
I'm a chef in a school and people will respect me.
It's not easy for everyone. And I know the chefs on our
team, it's like could be challenging, you know, some of
them when they go to make this decision, I think it's a hard
decision to make. And I think if we gave these
positions more respect and recognize them as, wow, that's a
really cool profession, more people would be quick to do it.

(57:10):
But until we do that, I think it's a lot to ask somebody to
just jump into a profession thatreceives no respect.
No, that's all you got to say. Like that's a hard, hey, do this
job that nobody respects. Or you could stay in the job
that you're in where people think it's really cool.
Like your family thinks it's really cool.
Your friends think it's really cool.

(57:31):
The general population thinks it's cool.
You have a chance to win an award.
Actually, you know what? Do this job where people are
going to say, really, you're doing that.
What's that all about? You?
No chance of getting awards, no chance of recognition.
Like just, if you frame it that way, it's like, like pretty
obvious, like that's a hard thing, you know?
Definitely. I mean, and I mean the impact

(57:52):
of, I mean for myself as somebody who was working in
these restaurants and then now working projects where we go to
Egypt and create, create a menu that these people can follow,
which is based on the Mediterranean diet.
So people in Portugal and Spain eat the same food as Egypt and
Lebanon because they're on the sea, on the same seabed.
And this is so much more valuable where you create an
energy bar from food waste, which will maybe be the only

(58:13):
source of protein they get in that day.
And I think it's, it's it's unfortunate that people don't
see value in this. And it's not only causing the
fact that people are not motivated to join these kind of
institutions, but the other ripple effect is that people
behind these organizations, the people funding, say a food tech
company or, or in big FMCG like Pepsi, they've already named
them or Nestle. And people like this, they might
not even look at chefs as their main people that they need to

(58:35):
recruit. And they won't put money there.
They won't even hunt for people because now if it's just about
formulas, we need a food food scientist to do it.
And same with distribution catering.
I think it's funny because I want to ask you this as well,
that when first you start approaching these restaurants,
were they actually seeing that chefs?
Did they actually know what chefs can contribute?
Like are they looking at chefs? Like if I want to build a
building, I I want an architect.But yeah, I also want labour,

(58:56):
which has the hand to put those cement blocks together.
So when you approach these places, I think from what I get
from institutional catering is they think these people, this
job, anybody can do it is to follow something.
And most times they won't even follow it.
They'll just do their own thing,but they'll serve it out.
Well, I will say it's a really, it's a really great question.
And I think I think your your inclination is right in the

(59:18):
sense of even the people who reach out to us who are
interested in working with us aschefs, I think a lot of them
don't really realize the value that chefs can provide until
we're underway. Again, as I mentioned earlier,
it's like they see chefs like they can train people and they
could come up with recipes, but they don't think of all the
other things when it comes to food service that chefs can

(59:41):
really think through that. It's just so important.
And you know, one thing that I had to deal with early on and we
still deal with it, like for example, the amount of money
that we pay a chef is, is very competitive to any job out there
as a chef. And that's important to me.
But some man, sometimes I will be speaking, sometimes not all

(01:00:01):
the time. We have a lot of people who see
the value in what we do, but sometimes I'll have a
conversation with someone who isa food service director of a
school district. And in some cases, depending on
the school district, those people can make a a very good
salary. You know, it's an important
position if you have a 30-40 schools in a school district and
one person who overseas the foodservice program.
So it's a lot of responsibility.It would not be uncommon for

(01:00:24):
that person to make $140,000, a $130,000, you know, a great
benefit package. And I'll have this conversation
about our services and they'll ask me like, how much does it
cost? And I'll tell them.
And I say this is based off of what we pay our chefs.
And in a lot of our jobs now that salary is like $90,000 a

(01:00:47):
year. And then it's benefits and all
these things, but they're like $90,000 a year.
And I'm like, yeah, like, you know, and I'm like, of course I
wouldn't say this to them, but I'm like, you make $130,000.
You think this person? 'S job.
Like, and the people we hire have a lot of experience.
Yeah. Well, we, you know, we hire like

(01:01:08):
really strong people who have great experience.
And so again, understanding likethe perception of what a chef
is, the value of a chef, what the chef, what a chef is capable
of. I think you're completely right
in set in saying that, you know,chefs in a lot of places are
undervalued and in a lot of settings are undervalued.
But what I will say, what I willsay and I think this is really

(01:01:30):
important is I do think a lot ofchefs, a lot of chefs, too many
chefs are not very well-rounded professionals.
You know, you can get a chef who's running a kitchen, who's
running a three mission star kitchen.
They don't know how to write an e-mail.
They don't know how to communicate properly.
They don't know how to manage properly because they don't
really even need to manage. They have no like their skill

(01:01:54):
set is very limited. So if you took that person who
is running a three mission star restaurant and you know, so
let's say, you know, one of the top benchmarks of success in our
industry or in the restaurant industry and put them into a
more kind of organized environment that we're talking
about, they could fail miserablybecause their communication

(01:02:17):
skills are that they don't like.There's so many deficiencies
because I think professional development, development in
general in primarily restaurants, primarily fine
dining restaurants is non existent.
Like if you go to a corporate setting, a hotel, a bigger
corporate environment, there usually is development because

(01:02:38):
that's part of what they do. That's the expectation.
But in independent restaurants, it is very rare.
From my experience and people I've spoken to and from
interviewing a ton of people forthese jobs that we offer that
people are getting any kind of training on anything.
You show up with the rest and you know this, you show up at
the restaurant, you're expected to figure it out.
You figure it out. If you become a manager of some

(01:03:00):
sort, a sous chef, a chef, you're just learning from the
person above you. Hopefully you're learning from
somebody who's actually a good manager.
Most likely you're not. You're learning from somebody
who's not a very good manager because they didn't learn from
anyone else. There's someone who just yells,
doesn't know how to manage properly.
It's just a, it's a bad circle. So to your point, again, I think

(01:03:22):
there are a lot of chefs out there and I've spoken to school
districts who and this, this contributes, I'm sure, to their
perception of chefs who have hadreally negative experiences with
chefs where they've gone out themselves, had an interview
process themselves and have hired a chef to work for them
directly without anyone else helping them figure that out.

(01:03:44):
And they've had horrible experiences, chefs who are just
not very nice people who've yelled, who were not flexible.
So I just think that in some cases, I think some of these
folks are probably right becauselevel like chefs, I am not
thrilled by the level of professionalism across the board

(01:04:07):
when it comes to chefs. Like I think a lot of chefs are
only good for cooking and develop, you know, coming up,
not even coming up with a recipe.
You know this, a lot of chefs don't even know how to come up
with a recipe. They just cooked food.
They can't even follow a recipe.They just want to cook.
And I just think that that takesaway from our profession.

(01:04:28):
Like there are there are chefs who are obsessed with the craft
of cooking. That is great.
I almost equate that to being a home cook.
But if you want to be a chef andrun a business and manage
people, there are other skill sets you need to be well versed

(01:04:49):
in. And I feel like a lot of folks
and I don't know what you think on that, but I just think a lot
of folks just never develop in that area and.
You don't have to be successful.Definitely no.
For me, for me, actually, I lookback at it now because now I, I
travel very often for work and this is me traveling on
companies budget. So I'm like, OK, you know what,
I want to go dine out on these occasions, explore the local
gastronomy. Like now I go to go to Mexico

(01:05:09):
tomorrow, but most of it most often I don't end up going at
these fine dining restaurants. It is because I feel I very much
know what's happening in there. I very much know there's only
one creative person who's leading, who's leading the team
and leading the ship. And then the rest of them think
they're being creative, but they're actually just mimicking
because their job is to mimic and mimicking is the the best
they can do at that job. Right?
Which is why I, I, I seek out more people, people who have

(01:05:31):
like also not not mostly like like I try to now look out of
food as an Ave. I'm looking to take a lot on how
things on other industries, how they get, how they get creative.
And I feel very often most chefsare not capable of doing the
things you're talking about. And I feel in the beginning of
the podcast, I was interviewing with the purpose of
understanding what Brigade does with the matchmaking process of
like how it connects these two subsets.

(01:05:51):
But I feel now that's for me after listening this hour long
conversation is the least important part because I think
the, the processes you do in theway of the grooming of the chefs
of I think one thing the chefs do not know is to ask what
they're worth. I think no chef I know knows,
OK, I'm worth this. There are very few exceptions,
those who are into like say consultancy or like private
dining and things like that, whoknow their price and they know

(01:06:14):
how to professionally ask for itand say and say no because we
are trained to say yes to everything principally.
So I think that job, what you dois I think that that job that
you do as a brigade to put this to make, to make a profile, to
groom them to it and to to tell people what they're worth.
I think that sets the benchmark at least in your in the people
you are, you're impacting, you know, So that's I think that's

(01:06:34):
right. That's a beautiful take away.
We talk about it a lot like we, we charge a certain amount for
our services to school districtsand we know for those school
districts that that feels expensive.
And in turn we need to make surewe are providing as much value
as possible. And the way we do that is
through our shifts. Therefore our chefs need to
match that. And if there's something they

(01:06:56):
need to work on, they need to work on it.
So it's like it goes both ways. It's like you are worth more
than this than what you think you are, but you also need to
like round out your knowledge set and your skills get and you
need to and your skill set, you need to like match that.
And I just think that a lot of that, unfortunately, just
doesn't really happen. And I think a lot of those
opportunities are not there for a lot of people working in

(01:07:18):
restaurants. And that's also a symptom of the
fact that you usually have a couple people in charge.
And if those people don't leave,you're never going to move up.
You're not going to. But I just wish.
And I don't know why this is such a unique thing.
And I said this the other day inone of my posts and a gentleman
asked, I said I rather go to a restaurant that spends less

(01:07:40):
money on ingredients, served conventional ingredients and
spend more money on their staff.And someone in the comments was
like, well, how do you invest inyour staff more than just making
sure there's a good working environment and paying them a
good wage? I was like training, training,
professional development. It's not just about the wage and

(01:08:00):
making sure it's a good environment.
You should demand getting developed if you go work
anywhere. I don't it doesn't matter if
it's a restaurant or this or that.
And I feel like people's people's perspective, if it's a
restaurant is like, well, by by working here, you're going to
learn that's not good enough. Like you deliberately put and
invest into people, train people.

(01:08:21):
That is your responsibility as an employer in any job.
And I just find it to me, it's very frustrating to think that
that's not really the case in restaurants.
And, and it's always pointing tothat it's not within the budget.
Like the, the restaurant model doesn't work well.
Again, if you spend a little less money on the, the fancy

(01:08:42):
ingredients, you could spend more money on training.
And that means you have to do things differently than maybe
you want to. But either, you know, I don't
know, I just, this is something that's very frustrating to me
because I mean, there's a lot ofamazing people out there working
in restaurants who are never going to be given the proper
opportunity to grow. They're just not, they're never

(01:09:02):
going to grow. They're going to work restaurant
to restaurant to restaurant to restaurant.
No one's ever going to, you know, then they might move up
and they might move up, but no one's ever investing in them.
And that's a real shame. It's a real shame.
Yeah, I know it's a pretty flat line and in most cases a flat
line because of of what you say.And it's it's unfortunate
because you do not compromise when it comes to ingredient.
You're not compromise when it goes to paying your purveyors or

(01:09:24):
charging a higher bill or raising the price of the menu.
But you always, the compromise always comes down to you could
get away with because it, it comes from the principal idea
that a chef can be replaced and it's just two hands putting
things together and it can be replaced.
So that's why I think this investment doesn't come.
And that's, yes, the rotational rate is high.
Yes, the younger generation is asking for stuff before they,
they are ready to show what theycan commit.

(01:09:45):
But I guess that doesn't, that doesn't give you enough an
excuse to say, you know what, you're not going to train stuff.
And I mean, I would, I would love to go on with this
conversation. Then I think I could have
another two hours of episode, but I think we could do a few
more episodes and then get you back on.
But before that, before like, I just have two last questions
before we wrap this up. 1 is principally I'm very interested
about knowing what's next for Brigade because you had this
summit recently, You're also building a lot of things

(01:10:07):
parallely. What are your view of the future
of Brigade? How do you see it?
Yeah. I mean, to be honest, like I
think this past like year and a half, we grew a lot and we're at
a place as a as a growing business where I think a lot of
the systems and things we had inplace prior are not working as
well as they did before and theyneed to change.
And we spent the last year to six months changing those things

(01:10:31):
and kind of upgrading and re evaluating the way we work.
And for me, I think this year and it's already started because
the school year in in the West Coast of the United States
started a couple weeks ago. We're already seeing kind of
like a better version of what wedo.
And I think I'm excited just this year, every year since we
started, we've grown exponentially.
And this is no different this year.

(01:10:52):
We have 20 more chefs this year than we did last year.
And probably next year we'll have a 253040 more chefs than we
do this year. But I think for me, I'm looking
at this year as being the year that we really kind of like not
worry too much. Like I think we're always
looking for like the newest thing and like how can we change
a little bit? I think we have a really great

(01:11:14):
thing going for us and I think we need to like just do it as
best as we can. I think that I'm a firm believer
that the kind of work that we do, it either keeps going and
keeps growing and gains momentum, not just for Brigade,
but for everybody in our country.
More people think school foods important, more people think

(01:11:34):
institutional food is important.Chefs are more interested in
working in it. This has a little a little
momentum right now, a little momentum and that either is
going to keep growing or it's just going to fade away and
fizzle out. And I think in order for it to
keep growing, we need to show the best version of of what's
possible. And that's like make the best
school food that's out there. Show that being a chef in a

(01:11:56):
school is a great career. And we need that to be out there
and we need people to see it. So I think for me right now, the
focus is like, we just need to do this better than we've ever
done it and we need people to see it.
And that's going to help this thing grow.
Because with everything that's going on politically, and you
know, I think it's a it's very fragile.

(01:12:17):
This is very fragile. And I don't want to take, I
don't want to take our current success of growing As for
granted. So for me, what's ahead for us
is really just hunkering down and showing the best version of
what we've been working. I mean, we've been doing this
for nine years. It feels feels like that's such
a long time, but honestly only in the last two to three years I

(01:12:38):
feel like have we really startedto do it the way that makes
sense and I'm excited to really put that out there this year.
Now, I mean, even to that I mean, I really hope.
I mean, two years ago, I mean, of course, we always had the
Paul Baucus of the world, but wedidn't have, I mean, 20 years
ago, nobody knew Fine Landing restaurants as they are today or
nobody knew about a show like MasterChef or nobody thought a

(01:13:00):
show like Bear could garner audience to the level it has
gone today. But I mean, that these things
have done good and bad both ways.
But I feel I hope whatever it takes, whether it's pop culture,
whether it's TV media, whatever it takes this this behind the
scenes of what happens in institution catering and how
important the role of chefs in there is.
I hope it comes out to the eyes of the ordinary people because I
feel the people, I mean, people just have to wake up and realize

(01:13:22):
the job that you're doing. How many people today are going
to bed knowing that the kids were eating at a catering where
a chef was inserted thanks to aninitiative by somebody who, who
had this, this visionary idea, You know, so I, I hope people
realize how important this is. And I feel sooner than later
people are getting more aware. Sometimes I also start doubting
if people know more or they knowlesser by when they start

(01:13:43):
reading ingredients, if, if theyactually know what they're, what
they're reading. And the same comes down to the
job that you're doing. I feel it's just what you
mentioned, the particle scenario, how things are
happening in the world right now.
There's so much so many things which get more priority then the
one single thing that all of us put inside our body.
Apart from apart from pharmaceutical drugs, that's the
only other thing you put inside your body.
And I wish there was more attention to these things that

(01:14:05):
but for now, I think we can onlywish and we can only like hope
to support people like you and stories like yours.
We have had the great, great people on the podcast next week.
We have actually not Matt Orlando, but Maximilian from the
same company from the analyst efforts they're doing.
So, yeah, it's it's really nice to see how all of us on
different parts of the globe aredoing these efforts from our
from our kitchen past, from our restaurant past to somehow

(01:14:27):
contribute to food. And my last question for you,
Dan, would be people who are listening to this like think of
Dan, who was this before this 18month period in normal thinking
of you know what, I entered thisrestaurant, I became a head
chef. I've done it all that it takes.
What do I do next? Or I have an idea, but I feel
that I work 16 hours a day. I have, I'm doing enough.
People are kind of talking aboutme.

(01:14:49):
I'm getting interviewed. I'm I'm kind of famous.
That is all the things that I could look for and still that is
this not discontent, but awareness that I could
contribute more. What would you say to a person
like that? Like, what could like, push them
over that Cliff and make that move?
I mean, my thing is just like, if presumably if you're having
those thoughts at all, you're probably not completely content
with, with your work, with your life, and that's not going to

(01:15:12):
change. It's not going to change.
It's going to just continue yearafter year and there's going to
be highlights that maybe make you feel a little better about
the situation, but it's not going to change.
And if you want to live your life, if you want to live the
rest of your life where most days you're not, you're not
content with your life and what you're doing and you're OK with

(01:15:33):
a few days here and there of recognition or a story being
written about you and that's enough to get you through, then,
then great. But what I would say is it's
never going to change. It's never going to change and
there's never a good time. It's never going to feel
comfortable to, you know, be like, I need to like just start
doing something else. It's never going to happen.
There's never going to be a moment where, and people say

(01:15:54):
this all the time, like there's never the right time.
And that's the truth. It's never going to be a moment
where it feels good to just say,you know what, I'm going to have
a wholesale change of what I'm doing.
And I think there's a very reasonable and practical way to
approach these things. I think you just in your head,
you need to make that decision like what I'm currently doing is
not the answer because I'm not happy doing this.

(01:16:17):
And I and, and be and be honest with yourself and stick to
yourself and promise yourself that you're going to figure out
what is the plan to move beyond this.
You don't need to do anything crazy or rash.
You just need to come up with a plan and then do it.
Figure out what the next step isand the next step, like in my
case, the next step was, was it?The next step doesn't need to be

(01:16:38):
it. The next step might be the next
step towards it, but you got to make a change.
You got to move. And I know too many people
who've never made a change. And you know what, they have
great days and they're excited about certain things, but
they're not content. They're not happy.
It doesn't go away like you're never going to, like that's not
going to change. So my advice to people, if

(01:16:59):
you're listening to this is justlike, you know, you know, you
don't need anyone to tell you like, you know, you're not happy
and you need to start making that change and you're the only
one that's going to do it. Now, thank you, Dan.
I couldn't say it better. And I feel people who are
through his emotions and all of us have been through these,
these steps and sometimes even like very often in life, not

(01:17:19):
just once one pivot, but there are of course like this where
you know it. So I think what you've said just
connects very much to me personally.
And I feel a lot of people listening to this.
It connects. And I would always say that I
would, I would tell people to, to follow your work.
I'll put your links down there so people see what else is out
there. I feel it's, it's also these
inspirations, not just this podcast, but also seeing the
small efforts that you do and see that somebody can leave,

(01:17:41):
leave behind a past which many people aspire to make that their
mission of life. But there is a lot more to to
food beyond beyond just fine lining restaurants.
Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah.
Thank you so much for your time,Dan.
I'll let you go from here and it's been, it's been a pleasure
talking to you. Likewise, Thanks so much.

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