Eddie Shepherd Is Doing Fine Dining on His Own Terms

What happens when a chef walks away from the traditional kitchen and builds something entirely his own?

In this episode, we speak with Eddie Shepherd, the self-taught, plant-based chef behind The Walled Gardens—a solo tasting menu experience run from the ground floor of his home in Manchester.

From his early days as a philosophy student and dishwasher to pioneering a new model for modern fine dining, Eddie opens up about creativity, burnout, independence, and what the future of food could look like outside the restaurant industry.

Whether you're a chef, creative, or dreamer rethinking your path—this episode is for you.

🎧 Fugitive Chefs is your window into alternative culinary careers and bold food innovation. New episodes every Tuesday. Follow, rate us & subscribe for more stories from the culinary underground.

🎙️ Hosted by Furqan from the Fugitive Chefs Podcast

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🔗 Connect with Eddie Shepherd

Instagram: eddiesheps

Linktree: http://bit.ly/45j6TmX

00:00 – Intro: Meet Eddie Shepherd

01:04 – From philosophy student to dishwasher to chef

02:17 – Self-teaching science and technique without culinary school

03:56 – Thoughts on culinary education vs. on-the-job learning

06:58 – Why Eddie went plant-based early in his career

09:25 – El Bulli, Ferran Adrià & the spark of creativity

11:28 – Working in early vegetarian restaurants in the UK

13:41 – Why he had to create his own learning platform

15:35 – Starting with blogs, e-books, and early YouTube

18:30 – Thoughts on social media & content in the chef world

20:43 – What is *The Walled Gardens*?

25:24 – Learning business skills as a solo chef

27:35 – Turning discarded ideas into creative content

28:26 – Are you ever really “ready” to start?

31:58 – A week in the life of Eddie’s micro-restaurant

35:20 – Long hours, legality, and independence vs burnout

39:01 – Mental health, creativity, and protecting the self

41:06 – The cost of sustainability and staff balance

44:00 – Family support & impact on personal life

48:37 – What’s next for Eddie & The Walled Gardens

51:07 – Advice for chefs ready to start something of their own

54:10 – Final reflections and close

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
So hello and welcome everyone toanother episode of Fugitive
Chefs Podcast. Today we have Eddie Shepherd.
Thanks for joining. Eddie, thanks for joining the
podcast. Thank you for having me.
And Eddie's story, super interesting actually.
Eddie comes recommended from oneof our previous guests, Josh
Whitehead, also from the UK. And and Eddie will tell us more
about his project. It's called the walled, the
walled gardens, if I'm not wrong, right.

(00:21):
Eddie. Yeah.
And I think that name already gives off.
Why is it walled? Why is it a garden?
And what's what's Eddie's background, Right.
Like for those listening who don't know Eddie, what we're
going to explore over in this podcast is how did Eddie switch
to the format he works right now?
I would say he's one of our guests who's still maybe closely
connected to, I would say feeding diners every day, not

(00:42):
the traditional restaurants again.
But before we dive into all of that, let like just tell us how
did you, how did you end up in this, in this industry after?
All so from the, from my sort ofstart into the world of
restaurants, I was, I was studying a philosophy degree
actually, and was had, you know,was nowhere sort of near to the
food world, but just paying my way through university, needing

(01:03):
jobs to kind of get by. I, I think, like a lot of people
do, took a job initially as a dishwasher, got kind of fell in
love a little bit with the, the energy of the kitchen and got
promoted when a chef left to just, you know, just basic
comedy chef stuff. And then over the course of
those those few years while I was searching, it became more

(01:24):
and more something that I was enjoying.
And you, you know, you, it's so in, it's so enjoyable.
The rate at which you pick up skills at that start point as
well. So by the time I graduated with
my degree, I really had kind of shifted my whole focus and was
really excited about restaurants, food, that whole
world. And so I kind of, I dove into it

(01:45):
from there. And that's, you know, about 20
years ago now. And so from what I get, you were
like formally into like you wereformally educated about
philosophy, but did you take anysort of education into culinary
gastronomy of sorts? No, I learned everything in
restaurants and on the job or kind of later when I would come
to like specialize a bit more inthings and look into things like

(02:06):
I had a job, you know, jumping forward in time.
At one point I was working as a consultant for a company that
imported a lot of new culinary technology.
So things like the ultrasonic homogenizers and, you know,
water baths when they were kind of more, you know, a little bit
newer and the prices were comingdown and stuff.
And for a lot of that stuff, I just had to teach myself the

(02:28):
bits of science I needed to know, all the the little, little
bits of information that you could then translate into
something that chefs could use in the kitchen.
Oh, that's brave, right? I mean, in these days, I don't
speak to so many who have like, entered the way you entered,
like rising up the ranks and like, actually starting
something all together differently.
So like, more than a fugitive chef, you're a fugitive
philosopher of some sorts. Because.

(02:49):
If you left that, you left that field.
And I mean, I, I would love to hear also like late in the
podcast, how are you using some of that?
Because I think there's a lot ofrestaurants I, I know of, like
the one I worked at Mugaris, forexample, is a lot more
philosophical than it is about it's about food and that being
their kind of statement, you know, But did you feel at any
point did you reconsider like, Oh, maybe I should stop this, go

(03:09):
back to school? Or did you compare yourself to
those who were like entering maybe say from a formal
education? Because I mean, culinary
education is something which hasbeen like discussed a lot.
I work in an institution right now which impart some sort of
their education and there's always like those who are like
for like a very four year degreeabout cooking.
And some of them were like, yeah, you know what?
It's a very practical job. So you need to learn on the job.

(03:30):
Which, which, which school of thought do you relate to?
It doesn't have to be 1. I mean, what?
What's? Your I definitely, I think
certainly earlier in my career, I definitely had those times
where I felt like like, like if I haven't come across something
in a restaurant, then I'll have a knowledge gap there
potentially. So if I hadn't been taught
something, if we didn't have something on a menu, if I wasn't
in a restaurant that was servingthat style of food, maybe I felt

(03:54):
like, am I missing this like ratthis this background of of
things. But then on the other hand, the
the practical experience just meant I was, I was really
excited always about what I was learning in the restaurants.
You know, you learned super quickly in restaurants too.
You really are thrown in the deep end.
And I think maybe later on it's one of the things like I said,

(04:16):
as I kind of specialized and learned about some other things,
maybe I wouldn't have found thatroute and doing that so easy if
I hadn't had to be kind of self teaching already along along the
way. So, you know, I definitely think
different things will suit different people and different
personalities. But I'm, I'm glad I went the
route that I did. Yeah.
Yeah, So you wouldn't. I mean, looking back, you said

(04:37):
you, I mean, from what I get it,you wouldn't change the way you
entered here. Like, I mean, you appreciate the
way it it, it made you what you are today.
Yeah, I think so. And I, I like that now again,
especially now I'm kind of, I'm further in my career and I'm
thinking about what the next steps will be over the next
decade or two. It's nice to have a have a life
that's had these different typesof experiences within it and

(05:01):
have have more than one perspective on the way that you
can kind of move, move through things.
And yeah. So that that kind of that
different, that more academic side of things is kind of is not
something I'm I'm really using in what I'm doing.
But I feel less pinned down to being maybe one type of chef or
one type of business, right. I.

(05:23):
Mean yeah, I think that's also like, I mean from what I think
is an outside, I was listening to your story.
It also feels like, I mean, whenyou get into the industry in
that sense where you haven't I mean today the education of the
best schools is, is is quite a fee you pay for that.
You know, it's a very expensive education, which wasn't the case
back back in the day. It was like more certificate
'cause there wasn't much bureaucracy or academic sense

(05:44):
around it. But it's an it's an extreme
expensive. I know people who take like
loans. I have colleagues from India
have gone to like CIA and take loans to get there.
And that kind of puts some kind of, I don't know, a baggage that
you have to somehow compensate for that, which I think also
could it means if somebody had like, if I was in this position
of like, I have this loan which I'm paying off and then I have

(06:04):
to still take the risk to move to some other industry or a
cardio within food, you wouldn'ttake all the risks because of of
the kind of baggage you have in that sense, you know, So I see
also this benefit like just while listening to you, I was
like thinking that, you know, this is a great way to enter
because you test and try things that work for you.
And it's not really a bound to. I don't know a certain model
that you have to live up. Yet, Yeah, definitely.

(06:25):
That's one of the things I was thinking about today actually
even was just how how much because lots of stages in my
career have been not what you would have.
It's not the choices you'd maybeexpect someone to make at the
time. I mean, maybe it would help if I
felt more fully described what Ido in a moment.
But I do plant based foods. And so that's quite, you know,

(06:46):
20 years ago, the idea of being plant based as a chef was not,
was much harder for people to understand.
I think, you know, even now it'sstill, it's still uncommon, but
it's, but 20 years ago it was just like I would meet chefs and
they just couldn't wrap their head around it at that point
often. And the what I do now where I I

(07:08):
run what I would describe as like a sort of micro restaurant
or a home restaurant and cookingon my own.
That's something I probably wouldn't have gotten if I hadn't
had all of these different points along my career where I
was doing things that were just a little bit outside of the
mainstream anyway. And I I kind of had this, I've

(07:28):
had this repeated experience of things being not the normal
prescribed route and kind of andyet kind of working out.
Maybe it's just through luck often, but yeah, so I I feel not
super tied to a career path thatmaybe might seem more
prescribed. And for many of the many of the

(07:51):
people who maybe it's not culinary school, which ties them
to this idea of the things they should be or the kind of career
they should have. But I think in our career at
least I mean, agree with me. I mean, let me know if I'm if
I'm if I'm guessing this wrong, but a lot of people I meet,
myself included, do get into this industry influenced by a
lot of faces that we all kind ofknow, kind of relate with the
stories we've read or watching no reservations or watching a

(08:14):
certain cooking show. So we are influenced kind of by
this celebrity culture, which isvery different than some of them
aspire to be them, but some of them just like that one side of
their life. It includes the real cooking.
And that's why you end up in this industry.
So how did you like, because I do not know if you had that
point. You know, it was a plan based
chef who's my reference, which is why I'm pivoting into this
kind of. So what is was there any

(08:34):
influence on like I don't know, media or known chefs on your
career? Yeah.
So I mean, like I say, initiallyI was doing it whilst I was
studying. So at that point I was just, it
was just about being in the kitchen when I graduated.
And then I, I was making the decision that that food and
restaurants was really the career and, and what I wanted to
follow. The thing that really captured

(08:56):
me then, and that was a big inspiration was at the time El
Bully and Ferren Adria. What was happening there?
This this sense of having got a grounding in restaurants
initially in cooking and then seeing the stuff that was
happening where it was like justlike pure creativity and this
really artistic side of things, which is not what I was
thinking. The, you know, the more it was

(09:17):
the High Street restaurants I was working in that that was the
thing where I was like, wow, food can be this whole of the
thing. You could have this really like
this, this hugely creative side to it.
You can explore and do something.
You can kind of express yourselfthrough it.
You can explore ideas through it.
All of that was like that hit meand influenced me in such a big

(09:38):
way at that time. And that's, that really was the
thing that kind of turned a corner for me in in my career
and how I looked at at food and and looked at it as a, as a job.
Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean, that's that's one also
like a lot of these these chefs maybe in this this who grew up
like maybe all like grew up or were in restaurants when Elbowy

(10:00):
was doing what he was doing. Also have this feeling that it
it kind of made being creative was taking out kind of
accessible because you don't have to then, you know, go for
the most expensive produce or serve for grand caviar on your
menu. And you can like use science,
technology or techniques to yourbenefit to kind of stand out for
different, especially if somebody's looking at say plant
based, it gives you a plethora of techniques and colours to

(10:23):
paint that picture. But tell us about your first few
restaurants and also like focusing more on when did that
focus? Like when did you pivot into say
plant based or get interested into that, kind of like starting
with what first jobs look like and then when did plant based
happen? Sure, So what?
So I was already vegetarian as astudent.
So in a way I never made this big decision.

(10:45):
I was a vegetarian philosophy student working in these
kitchens. And it kind of by the time I
graduated and it was like I decided this was the career I
was going to follow. I'd already then, you know, done
a few years working in not in vegetarian restaurants or, or
anything, but whenever I worked,I think people were so desperate

(11:05):
for competent hands in the kitchen.
You know, that if you could, if you could do a good job.
Ultimately, no one really cared if I was vegetarian.
It was a bit unusual, but it didn't matter to them.
And then moving on into working in trying to push, pursue
improving and working in other restaurants.
I, I worked in, I was up in Scotland, I worked in a few

(11:29):
different restaurants, some likemostly kind of Bistro E type of
places before I made a jump to work in some.
There's only a couple of vegetarian restaurants really in
the UK at the time. So I basically kind of did the
rounds of working in all of those that that happened, you
know, over a period of of years.And that's when it that's what

(11:51):
sort of ultimately that led me to hitting this point, which
would be quite different now. But at that point I felt like I
don't know where else to go to learn.
I think both, I think now of thehigh end restaurants would be
much more accepting about the idea of having a plant based
shift chef come and step like stars with them.
But that felt a bit less accessible at that time.

(12:11):
And now also there's just there's just more high end plant
based restaurants. There's like lots of really
inspiring people here and work for.
But back then I felt like, OK, I'm going to have to if I want
to keep learning, I'm going to have to do that off my own back.
I'm going to have to start my own projects.
I'm going to have to do my own thing a bit more.
And that's sort of ultimately what led into the next stages of

(12:32):
my career consulting and then launching my my own thing.
Yeah, that's so cool. I mean, it's because there are
most, most people start like plant based me for a sustainable
kind of point of view towards restaurants or guy getting bored
of like just just doing the samewith like cuts of meat and
fishes. And for you it was more like
something you live by and something you believe in
yourself. So it makes complete sense.

(12:53):
But again, not the best I think scenario in that point to take
that kind of stance, you know? It was, it was definitely a more
difficult jump to make it that tie or more difficult to explain
to people what you were doing. But I did exactly what you were
saying about El Bui and, and that kind of, you know, these
all the new stuff that was happening in food.

(13:13):
It just seems so clear to me as well that there's all this stuff
that can be applied so fantastically to plant based
food and just plant based food hadn't had its own little
revolution. You know, it was still quite old
fashioned. Mainly it felt so it just, it
just seemed so clear to me. There was this space to do all
this interesting stuff and and now lots of people are are

(13:34):
working in that area and doing super, super cool thing.
And from there, Eddie, like how about like when what you just
mentioned in US life, you touched the point that how you
felt that there was no stage or like platform to do what you
wanted to do. And that led you to say, start
with consultancy is what I'm guessing.
But yeah, please tell us how didyou pivot out of restaurants?
Because again, most chefs, the reason this podcast exist is
because I think it doesn't come natural to most chefs to say,

(13:57):
start a business because our jobis so much about being behind
the curtains. So I mean, having a business or
say having a podcast right now or having any kind of purpose
which is run by your, you as a brand or you as a name behind
it, there's a lot of imposter syndrome.
There's a lot of I'm supposed tobe cooking, I don't know the
numbers and things like that. So what was that journey like?
When did that happen? Again, I think I was quite

(14:19):
looking in lots of ways with, with the timing of things that I
did. And just so in quite an early
stage, I like for a little bit, I wrote a blog.
This is like 15 years ago or something when blogs were a
thing still really. And because I wanted to, I
wanted to try recipes and dishesand things that I couldn't do in

(14:39):
restaurants I was working in, atthe Times, work on stuff, write
it up, post it on this blog. And then that kind of led to to
in the end, I did a couple of like digital books, like ebooks.
And that was about the same timethat pretty much coincided with
when like iPads were coming out and they were.
So there's this kind of big pushon ebooks as well.

(15:00):
If now you've got this beautifulnew thing, you can you can read
them on. And just the timing was very
lucky. And I was up for experimenting
with new things as they came on that kind of, I guess.
Yeah, that that experience kind of got the ball rolling for me
and I, Jen, I generally felt like often the things that seem
to work best for me were these like small projects, like self

(15:24):
generated things. You know, you don't need a lot
of resources to start a blog or a YouTube channel or, you know,
whatever it is. And, and maybe it would be a bit
depressing if you started it with massive hopes are this is
going to be the big thing. This is going to be my career.
But if you're willing to like start an experiment with things,
my experience has been that quite often they will lead into

(15:46):
other things. So you will learn stuff from
those processes that you can apply in all sorts of different
ways in your career. And so I think I've been lucky
with the timing and enjoyed doing these kinds of projects
and, you know, seeing, seeing what comes from them.
And it's very interesting what you said, like kind of like not
having some sort of expectationsfrom your these first works, you

(16:08):
know, because that definitely puts a lot of project, a lot of
pressure on this, these sort of projects.
And I'm curious about like I'm actually asking for my own
personal things. Like, for example, for the
podcast that I'm running right now, it's been a lot of, I think
you want your product to look like the best version of it
possible. And you compare yourself with
the standards of people who are like spending money on a lot of
resources or getting sponsored by big brands.

(16:29):
And I'm wondering in that age oflike, I'm sorry if I'm making
you sound too old, but again, it's so much has happened in the
past few years that social mediahas like, yeah, I take a big
curve since like the blog to theiPad as you're speaking about
it. But how do you see the role of
at that point, what was social media like as I, I know that
YouTube will exist at that point, but how do you imagine
yourself like doing all of that in today's scenario where

(16:50):
everything is on? Like it's, it's about
algorithms, knowing the right hashtags, knowing the right
people and paid advertisement isa thing.
So how did that work? For you I it's just never that
confident at any of that and I wish now that I had I put out
some quite early YouTube videos for the company I was consulting
with. They got me to do videos with.

(17:11):
They started selling the anti griddle the like that used a
linear and so I had an early oneof those to play with and do
some things with and this ultrasonic homogenizer, a lot of
stuff with the ISI whippers and stuff.
So I did these early like how tovideos with those.
Again, that's a long time ago, like well over a decade ago,

(17:33):
cloak probably early early firstfew years of YouTube, I would
guess. And now I really kick myself
that I'm like, why do I not justkeep that?
You know, the quality wasn't amazing or anything, but if I'd
have just kept that going from then, it would have been, I
would have learned so much in that time and you so early on
this platform that you know, is so massive now.

(17:54):
But yeah, I don't know. I find it one thing I do think
is that because my fundamental my, my job is this is my small
restaurant and cooking for people and the tasting menu.
And that's really that's how I make my income.
And that's my most that's me as a professional chef.
So anything else I do, I feel like I do want it to look as

(18:14):
good as possible. I do want the quality to be as
high as possible. I want like a YouTube video to
look good and and work well, butit is kind of freeing to know
that still doesn't kind of totally matter.
The most important thing to me still is cooking and the food
that goes out in front of guests.
I always kind of that's my that's my own kind of get out of

(18:38):
jail free card. If I need to like abandoned a
little side project, I'm like it's fine because it's not.
It's not truly my main focus. Definitely and I feel like if
even if I want to place it laterand even if I want to like time
this thing, I think the topic oflike, I think for just context
for listeners, I think it would be nice to clarify what is it
that you do today? What is the walled gardens?
This as you mentioned your main project right now.

(18:59):
What? What is it about?
Yeah, sure. So I cook a tasting menu.
I do it on the converted ground floor of our home.
So 10 years ago we found our home and looked for somewhere
specifically that had a kitchen and then a big open dining
space. And I cook this plant based

(19:22):
tasting menu for 8 guests a night that's just me like
cooking and serving it for them.So it's taken to but quite a
while to figure out the logistics of how to make all of
that work how I want. And people book their
reservations via talk. It's in most ways short of the

(19:43):
location and the fact that I'm on my own doing it, it really
functions like a tasting menu restaurant normally would,
although it's also it's bring your own drinks.
There's no alcohol license. So that's the only other other
major difference. But that's, that's my
fundamental day-to-day and the tasting menu and serving.

(20:04):
That is still the thing that's like really like the main, the
main focus for me. And I try and share a little bit
of what I do here on things likethe YouTube channel that I, that
I have as well. I try and take the odd dish or
technique and try and film them and share those with people as a
way of. Getting a little bit further
than the the eight people that I'm cooking for at a time.

(20:26):
No, definitely. I mean I've seen some of your
content on like Instagram and YouTube and it looks like super
inspirational. I think it also makes sense
coming from you because it's coming from somebody who's doing
it, doing things that are smaller scale has kind of the
the resources to be able to cop to like stay honest to the
project. And I think it could be very
coming if it comes the same thing comes from a very like
high celebrity three star Michelin restaurant.

(20:46):
It feels like even if it's a simple, it does feel like, you
know what, they can do it because they have the resources
for it. So I think, yeah, you fill this
kind of space, which is super interesting for actually like
budding chefs and people like that.
But any when you think about yourself, like coming from
somebody who started in restaurants, grew up the ranks,
ended up switching their, yeah, this academic life to a
profession in the kitchen. And today where you are, what

(21:08):
has been like things that you feel you have lost or gained
from this pivot of not working in, say, traditional restaurants
And yeah, the traditional way ofa kitchen carrier?
Sure. I mean, one of the things that I
do miss still, because it's, it's one of the things I think
most people that worked in restaurants love is the, you
know, the buzz of a busy serviceand how close you get with the

(21:30):
people you work with, how, how quickly you become so strongly
bonded. When even when I'm doing the,
the tasting menu service on my own and I do get that buzz of
adrenaline. But it is different to like when
everything is just like perfectly synced in a restaurant
and everyone's on their timings.And at the end, you've all got
that same kind of release of energy at the end of service.

(21:51):
And you know, you, you, you missa little bit of that camaraderie
working on your own and a littlebit, I guess, just at the end of
service, not having that person like person or other people to
kind of share that same sense ofachievement with.
So people I miss in hospitality.But then I also love that as an
industry, including people that aren't, you know, in the

(22:13):
traditional restaurant setting of the industry, maybe even more
so how how great and how supportive I find people being.
You know, there's, there's so many friends and acquaintances I
have, including people like Joshthat we we spoke about earlier.
You know, it's great hearing youchat to Johnny on here as well.

(22:33):
And I feel like people, people like that.
The attitude is so often that they are very open to reaching
out to each other and being supportive.
And it's this kind of disparate band of people doing slightly
unusual projects are are very, you have very sort of positive
towards each other. So you you still get a different
type of camaraderie maybe. And it has to be challenging,

(22:56):
right? Because I mean, switching from
profession where some things arelike sort of taken care of, say
like getting getting like traction and kind of customers
or like doing the service end ofthings or like doing the billing
and getting licenses that he spoke about.
How does that feel? Like it is an experience, Of
course, it's very liberating to kind of I'll also come to that.
Like how does it feel? Do you feel you're more creative
now than you wouldn't say somebody elses project, but how

(23:19):
about like gaining skills that maybe you did not contemplate
having just being say a plant based chef in a restaurant
setting? How's that experience?
Yeah, good. I mean, now I, I, I quite like,
I mean, I, I definitely am someone that likes having a lot
of control over a project. You know, I really love, it's
what I like in food is I really like making everything from
scratch that I can, you know, making the chocolate here and

(23:42):
all, all sorts of things from asearly in the process as, as
possible. So I quite like that when it
comes to other aspects of the business too.
It's nice to understand how to do reservations and use like the
back end of like the the top reservation system or to I
really enjoyed learning particularly about things like

(24:04):
food photography. Photography is something I enjoy
anyway. And once you realize there's no
budget to have someone photograph your food or to do
things on social media, so you're going to have to learn
how to do it. That's I mean, you can either
see that as being like, oh God, this is another thing I have to
do. You know, I really just want to
cook and focus on that. Or you can find how it can fit

(24:25):
into your creative process and workflow to some extent.
It gives me a bit more creative space and a little more freedom,
I think because there are certain things where sometimes
I'll work on a dish and I might put a lot of work into different
stages for it, especially if there's fermentation elements
and things like that. And at the end point, it maybe
just doesn't fit the menu or maybe I can't make it work in

(24:46):
the menu with the way that I cook and working on my own.
It's just it's not possible in service.
But then if you have things likethat YouTube tube or something
like that, if this work can haveits own separate outlet, that
that's quite freeing when you'reworking on something to think,
look, whatever happens, this, this isn't going to go to waste.
If this is good, I can, it can have another life somewhere

(25:10):
else, even if it's not on the, the menu.
So I try and look at things in, in that way.
It's just you know, learning experiences and hopefully other
opportunities and and almost always will find some way back
into a future project. I think definitely.
I mean, I think the. Learning curve has to be massive
when all these things also have to be taken care of and either

(25:31):
there's no budget or there's either there is some other
constraints doesn't let you get like kind of externalize these
kind of problems which then become challenges.
But that's super interesting forme because a lot of people I
speak to who are say, people whohave like certain ideas like
yours or who want to move away and pivot from the restaurant
industry, many of them come up with like, OK, I'm not prepared
enough. So like, what what do you say to

(25:53):
that? Like was it there a day when
Eddie wakes up and says, OK, youknow, I'm prepared to do this?
Or was it just that is it, it isnow or it's just going to get
delayed and get get pushed? So does somebody have to be
certain amount of like is there certain formal of preparation to
know, you know, I stand here andnow it looks doable or do you
suggest more like jumping into it and learning as you go?

(26:14):
Yeah, I mean. I always think, I certainly, I
think what what happened to me was always that I was in the
position where I had to learn something.
I was, you know, forced and always, you know, often, often
like just a little out of my depth basically.
And yeah, I guess the ideal position to be in is slightly
out of your depth. So you are learning and you are

(26:35):
developing things and or you arestarting new projects, but not
so out of your depth that that is unsustainable and you can't
like learn things as quickly as you need to.
So I mean like early, some earlythings that I did with other
chefs were really good ways of doing some of that and
splitting, sharing some of the pressure.
So some other like good friends and chefs that I did like pop

(26:58):
ups with that was great because then there was three of us
working on it. And so you would together, you
would kind of share the responsibility of how do we
market this? How do we prepare for this?
How do we find a venue and deal with them and, and all of these
other things. But also it's not just your name
on it. It's not you putting yourself
just totally individually out there.

(27:18):
And you would that that I think was a you know, it's a in
general, a little bit of collaboration and stuff can be a
really good way to just explore and get a sense of what
something might be like. And then you kind of then you
can know, am I going to be able to, is this something I care
about like pouring my time into?And is this something I think I
can like, you know, really pour my energy into and and get learn

(27:42):
the skills I need? Yeah, I think.
Yeah, it makes complete sense. And what you say, I think a
certain amount of discomfort is important because that's
ultimately what pushes you to tolook at the things that could
could be, I mean, could be disappointing as well to run
into walls that you can't you can't breakdown.
But again, what you the solutionthat you suggested of like
counting on resources that you have.
I think more like all the time Ispend in restaurants more than

(28:04):
what I take out of them. Like in terms of technique or
processes or knowledge is the connections and the contacts you
make. And it's, it's very funny.
Like right now it should be speaking.
I grew up in India, you in the UK and we still know people
comment between US and have a conversation with you know, and
that's how funny how small this industry is.
Or at least even if you don't know anybody, the experiences
you have on a certain part of the globe will be related with

(28:27):
somebody who has shared some form of that profession.
So I think yeah, people should count on like resources like
that, the ones you mentioned of like heading into a challenge,
but with people you you can fight in and people who who know
will somehow make it work. And that's also been, I think
one reason this podcast exists because I mean, every time I'm
like, OK, you know what, this next week, I'm not going to have
any story left because maybe I've run out of all the chefs

(28:48):
who left the classic industry. But then there's honestly so
many stories. And most of it I think is, is I
would give the credit to the kind of like thinking on your
feet or thinking out-of-the-box.And this is 1 profession which
forces you to do it as a system.And that somehow leads to chefs
always feeling the kitchen is small enough for them to be

(29:09):
creative and they step into someother kind of more complicated
certain amount of discomfort kind of box.
So yeah, that's, that's super interesting for me how how you
kind of relate to that experience as well.
And for somebody listening to you, what would you say?
I think a day is difficult to explain, but what's your, what's
your week like? Like how often do you open what,
what kind of responsibilities and works do you have?

(29:30):
Because if somebody is picturing, I want them to hear
like all bits and pieces of it, you know, not just starting 8
seater, which could sound fancy,but again, I want to like hear
what your week is like. Yeah.
So there's there's. Definitely.
I guess this is some of where what I do does really differ
from how a restaurant would morenormally operate.
I can't be open every week because just being working on my

(29:52):
own, it's just it isn't possibleto keep up with the the prep
even doing like very, very long hours and putting you know, lots
of work into it. It's just it's impossible.
So I am open generally two or three weekends of the month.
So what I tend to do is drop it back a little bit in the summer.
So at the minute it'll be two weekends of the month.

(30:13):
I'm doing the the tasting menu Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
Sunday. And then in the winter I will up
that to three weekends. And then also in the in the
spring and the summer, I use a lot of wild food ingredients on
the menu. So I'm out foraging and picking
ingredients and preserving them.I use distilling and things like

(30:34):
that as well as ways of preserving those flavors.
So I do a lot of vacuum distillation with I've got a
Rotov app here to do a lot of low temperature distillation and
capture flavors in that way. So that's kind of sort of how
the the normal structure is. The the weeks I'm not open
serving people is prep time. And that's when things like the

(30:55):
the foraging, the distillation prep of anything that will keep
basically gets gets done. And then in a in in the days I'm
open or in a week where I'm open, it's really like that is
where it is just go all the time.
So from the minute you're up till like all the way through
the day till the end, basically it's, it's non-stop to produce,

(31:17):
to produce the food and to to, to do everything the way that I
want to do it is very, very timeconsuming.
And of course, because you're doing service on your own, like
things need to be like completely boxed off, like
nothing. If you're on your own something,
you can't fix anything. It's surface if something goes
wrong, if you've not got something like that's it.

(31:38):
It's both an awful lot of work and an awful lot of
independence, which really suitsme.
And then it's it's kind of nice that those, those weeks that are
the, the prep weeks, they're busy, but the pace, the
intensity, like compared to services, you know, it's very
different. So that's where I get some level
of of balance. It's kind of nice to like have

(32:00):
both ends of the spectrum, get that still get that busy, busy
service and and that feeling of going at full speed, but also
get those a bit of time to thinkand a bit of time to be creative
and work on things too. Yeah, that's super.
I mean, it's, it's very. Interesting how like the way you
explain your week and it does itdoes sound like it's it's, it
seems like a very busy kind of schedule.

(32:22):
But again, what that brings me to is and one of the very
interesting topics I have discussed with a lot of of
guests on this podcast, because this is these are again, people
like me who were seeing what's happening, say in current
restaurants or current. There's also the bear and all
these kind of series like the menu, the movies and a lot of
like theatre movie cultures covering a lot of things
happening in the kitchen. At the same time, politics,

(32:43):
labor laws and things are are tightening up and what you
mentioned your week sounds like.So I think if you were, say,
working for some employee and putting for some employer and
you're the employee, I don't think it would be legal to put
the kind of hours you're puttingor the kind of fluctuation it
has, you know, because I believeyou also have days when it's
like, you know what, I'm going to take a break for myself
because I can permit my businessthat.

(33:03):
And then what's happening in restaurants where labor law is,
is tightening. There are chefs that have been
guests who have said things likethe younger generation is not
there completely in it or they don't want to receive how
current education was before within restaurants, which I
believe you somebody like you who's not coming from a school
would have, would have faced these kind of things.
You know, that's what's expectedof you to be able to grow.

(33:23):
And then there are those who believe that the younger
generation is maybe say, more aware about mental health or
they know when to call out things and not just tolerate for
the sake of tolerating. There's a lot of mixed opinions.
And I do not, I try to like shy away to share my opinion as I'm
like, I'm just somebody giving the platform 2 two people on
this podcast. And of course, I, I reserve my

(33:45):
opinion in that sense. But I would like to know from
somebody like you who's like doing all these hours in their
own business, which I think makes sense for you because
you've chosen that path. And the same time listening to
what's happening in the industry, which is not very, I
would say it's not a very ideal scenario.
I think people are trying to adjust to their personal
existing scenarios. How do you see that for not for

(34:05):
your business, but like as somebody who's still in the
industry? Because for me, you and profiles
like you are like all of us, me included, are still part of this
kind of chef's community, even though we are not in the
restaurants and we could not have the correct opinion about
everything. But we still have the right to
an opinion because it does pertain to our to our kind of
bunch of professionals. Yeah, I mean it's.

(34:27):
It's it's there's so many challenges, aren't there, facing
the restaurant industry. And there's so many ways in
which things are changing. And I think in the past, it has
not been industry overall that has been fast to adapt in lots
of ways. It's been, you know, in lots of
ways quite behind societal and other and work changes in a lot

(34:48):
of ways. Everything feels like it's been
just 10 years and there's yeah, a ton of challenges.
I mean, young chefs that I meet,I think I find it really
inspiring meeting a lot of the younger generation.
I meet loads of people who like seem like incredibly motivated
and are also looking in interesting ways at doing

(35:09):
different things. And one of the things that I
feel very aware of currently, I don't know how I will navigate
this because I only really know the way to do things that I know
how to do. But I'm, I'm aware with like the
hours and stuff that I do. I'm, I'm very lucky that I
really, really love what I do. And I'm very lucky to be in a
position where I do my own thing.

(35:30):
I have independence and, and it's doing what I love, but I
also don't have that much free time.
And that's one of the things I would like at some point to have
more of. And also just that, like viewing
for me, viewing myself as a resource to like I, I can't
really afford to be unwell physically or mentally, and I

(35:51):
have to be able to keep myself in physical shape and healthy
to, to do the work. Otherwise that's my, my business
wouldn't be able to exist. So that's a very real reason to
think, no, it's really importantto prioritize health and balance
as well. And psychologically, I just
think I don't know how much it could be true that people do

(36:11):
their best creative work under like immense pressure or really,
really tired. You know, it just doesn't.
I think some pressure and some out of your depth can be really
good. But some of the environments
I've worked in in the past, for instance, where pressure feels
relentless and you're constantlysleep deprived and you are like
push, push, push. Of course you can.

(36:32):
Of course, lots of restaurants operate like that and achieve
incredible results, but maybe they're also just burning
through people. And whether that's, I don't
know, that doesn't feel to me like the most like the best
environment for creativity. So personally for myself, I
think it's, I'm increasingly aware that making sure that I

(36:54):
prioritize some time for physical and mental health and
breaks is like as important as sourcing good ingredients.
I think, you know, because ultimately if if something goes
wrong there, it's, it's, you know, disastrous.
So no, definitely totally in. Agreement with what you said and
I think creativity doesn't have to be to make the most
interesting kind of plant based fermentation.
It can also be like, how can youfind this balance that you're

(37:16):
aspiring for? You know, and I think it's AI
think it's a learning journey, but I think we somehow as
industry forget to like that as a staff for the most sustainable
restaurant, the one for the mostkind of diners, the most
expensive menu, the most creative fermentation lab.
But there is no kind of industrystandard for kind of recognizing
places that make the atmosphere livable of people to have a

(37:39):
balanced kind of routine. I mean, there are restaurants, I
know like people are switching into like a three day work week
or a four day work week. But still it happens to be like
during the 40 hours in three days and doing like around 13
hours a day, which also I think is not completely correct, you
know, because the other four days, what quality of life are
you going to have after three days of intense work?
So I think it's, it's, it's a challenging industry also coming

(38:00):
down from like coming out of like still sort of like there
are many restaurants in the industry itself still coming out
of what happened in COVID or thekind of economic imbalances
right now and like produce misplacements, kind of shortage
of ingredients in many sectors. So I think it's a challenge to
live with and I think everybody's kind of creating
that formula around it. You know, I think some of it's.
About communication too, becauseI think the you're right,

(38:25):
there's a ton of challenges. Ingredients are more expensive
that makes it hard to you know, for maybe a restaurant that's
pushed on every aspect, like whomaybe want to really prioritize
the work life balance of their staff and things.
But if you know, that will make the food more expensive and how
you, how you communicate that toguests and to the rest of

(38:48):
society, how you make society value hospitality staff, which
in the in the UK, it's not, it'snot necessarily as a career
valued in the same way that it is in other country, in other
countries within Europe and stuff.
And so people how we as an industry sort of shift the
culture and have people think, yeah, I'm, I'm willing to pay a

(39:08):
bit more for this food because Iknow these people are rested and
happy and have like, you know, abetter quality of life is that's
a really difficult big shift. You know, no one's doing that on
their own, but but we have seen that shift happen or at least a
lot of progress be made on it with things like sustainability
and like the green stars and different sustainability awards.

(39:29):
So like you're saying, it would be great to see those things
clearly make a difference, even even when they're not perfect.
It would be great to see that sort of happen and help shift
the culture a little bit in terms of like what, what do we
want life in hospitality to looklike for people in the future?
Sure, there's positive change wecan still make No alleged.

(39:50):
I think there's a lot. Of part of this is I mean by
recognition, a lot of this comesfrom like kind of the right
education we had the other day, Jack from Mad Academy speaking
about how chefs, most of them don't know how to read a PNL
statement or how to. Measure carbon footprint and
things like this. And I feel a lot of educational
institutes which still impart education in that sense.
Or I know restaurants who have like educational programs during

(40:11):
the weekend, Are they kind of trying to keep their staff
within the restaurants I have worked which they can have like
a continued education for their own staff and they could teach
these things where you start putting more things into
perspective And not just I want to be sustainable.
I'm going to put like 6 hours more to use the leftover from
the almond milk to make an ice cream out of it.
But at what cost, you know, is it sustainable to do all of that
and create this great creative recipe, but at the cost of

(40:34):
working eight extra hours? So yeah, I think it's a lot of
reflection to be done. And it's going to be slow
definitely, because there's a lot of things also like going on
their own pace simultaneously, which makes it a difficult job.
But moving on from here, Eddie, what's the reaction being like
if it's not to person? I would like to hear just a
generalized view of like what's the reaction of your friends and
family being? Because I mean, these are people

(40:56):
who have known you through your academic phase and then through
your restaurant phase. And then in this phase
currently, how do they see this kind of work life balance that
you have currently and also youryour own personal mental health,
you know? Yeah.
My well, I remember when I firstsort of moved like full time
into restaurants. I remember my mum being like, do

(41:16):
you, is this you sure what you want to do?
Do you really know what this is going to entail?
And you know, she was she was not incorrect.
You know, it's, it's a, it's a lifestyle and a career direction
and stuff that has has certainlybeen challenging in lots of
ways. I think now, I mean, it's, it's
about 10 years ago that I started the walled gardens and
my, my tasting menu project little micro restaurant here.

(41:41):
And that sort of that, that wasn't immediately full time.
It's been full time for the lastsort of like six years or so, I
would say, But my my wife actually so recently married.
She it was said that I have to get used to calling my wife now.
Of course, she she was saying how like this, this is her

(42:06):
favorite thing that I've ever done because even when I'm doing
the long hours now, I like I'm here.
It's not like you come back and you arrive home at, you know,
one in the morning and you're out again first thing in the
morning while it's still dark and stuff.
And you know, they, those hours are very draining, but also it's
where you're doing those hours, what kind of pressure you're

(42:27):
doing those hours under and stuff.
That makes a huge difference too.
You know, it's like, like, you know, I've worked in kitchens,
as I'm sure lots of people have,where you're in a basement and
there's no natural light, you know, so you do, you do 16 hours
in a basement with no light versus like, even if you do
those same hours or maybe even more, but you're in your own

(42:48):
space, you're listening to your own music, you are, you're
organizing your own, your own time within that.
That is totally different in terms of what it takes out of
you. It's it's like night and day.
So that that was a real sort of revelation to me as well.
That is it's not just the hours,you know it's very much like

(43:11):
like pouring yourself into your own project as well as like is
very different to doing all of that for someone else to.
And yeah, stress, I think more than ours is, is the thing that
I really like. Keep, keep an eye on.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and. It's, it's as you, as you
mentioned, it's at your terms, at your conditions.
And I think that's, as you said,it's not the ideal scenario and

(43:33):
you're, you're envisioning a better balance for yourself in
the future. But again, it's, it's still a
much better model than the one you were in, I guess.
And also, I think one thing I also noticed from your, the way
you, the way you speak about this experience is also like
something that happens for good or bad in the restaurants.
You kind of get used to so much of, I don't know, for loss of
words, let's call it abuse, thatyou kind of normalize things or

(43:56):
like start, start appreciating things, which are just the usual
8 hour work or 8 hour working a day or a 40 hour work week
should be the normal. The restaurant is celebrated
because they are used to like 60hours.
So I think this is, it's, it's good because it makes you kind
of very resilient. You can like stand anything, but
again, it makes you like kind ofnot see the bigger picture where
how much of Rd. is still left tobe to be covered.

(44:18):
And I mean, it's it's nice to hear you.
And I think it's maybe the the connection you have with other
industry peers who've taken parts like yours that you still
know that is that is light at the end of the tunnel and you're
projecting. I mean it listening the concept,
it sounds super interesting. And also knowing that just not
that it's just like AI don't know, as you said, testing many
experience, but it's somebody that is the one individual

(44:39):
behind it putting all this effort to save forage, designing
all these things, kind of also tutoring people through it and
creating an example. I think there's a lot more
layers to it. And to wrap this up, I would
like to hear from you, what's your plans with like walled
gardens or any personal projectsthat you would like to share or
you can share about like what's the next few things you aspire
for for your projects? Sure, I mean.

(45:00):
I always feel with, with what I'm doing here, like I say, the
tasting menu is always the priority.
And I'm always also thinking I would love to just keep
improving it. And, and there are little things
I have in the works to improve it.
I have some some really nice newplace settings I'm excited about
that a really talented woodworker recently made for me.
But I am also thinking like exactly what you just said, like

(45:22):
one of the kind of one of the real skills and things that you
had to know if we should call ita skill because it's negative as
well. But one of the things you get
out of working restaurants is this the ability to really push
and to push through things and to be like, I will just, I will
work as hard as I need to to geta certain thing done.
And I am aware more and more these days that you also need to

(45:44):
keep a little bit of an eye on that because you can push
yourself to burn out like by doing that.
And so I, what I really want to do over the next 10 years and
how I think I will get the food to continue to get better is to
find how I get more balance. And I don't let myself burn out.
I really want to think about like longevity because I love

(46:05):
what I do so much and I want to keep the quality there.
And I think that's what I wantednext be figuring out is like how
doing how then do I maybe it's even just a case of prices have
to go up so I can drop one service a month or something
just to have that extra little, a little bit of a free time.
But if, if that's what it takes to make things as good as they

(46:26):
can be and to keep them as good as they can be and, and to stay
creative, then that's, that's kind of what I want to think
about. Oh yeah.
I mean, and that's that's the. Beauty of having your own model,
you know, because you can like test and try out and play
things. Yeah, yeah.
Because in the end it's, it's gonna, you're gonna, I mean, if,
if it reads benefits, you're gonna reap it.
If it, it causes problems, you're gonna face them.
So I think that's a that's a beautiful model.
And like based on this, any, anylast thoughts?

(46:47):
Anything you would like to sharewith people just to set the
stage for you? People who are listening who
have, I don't know, they're, they're people.
I mean, most of the people who write to me on say, Instagram or
through e-mail are people who are listening to these podcasts
because they feel they have an idea.
I think the most people I've spoken to are not like they have
no idea. They just want to escape the
restaurant. That's not the ideal listener.
The most amount of listeners I know are people who have an

(47:08):
idea. They just don't have the push,
you know, to think of yourself like 10 years back when you
thought, you know, I could put my name on a menu.
So people like that, what would like to like share with them?
Honestly, I think the biggest. Thing that you need to do is
just start with a project. I think like think, you know, in
coming from a restaurant background, we want things
always to be like perfect. You know that the standards you

(47:29):
set for yourself are so high. But as with something that's
new, I think you have to be willing to start and tell
yourself you you're going to getit really good, but you just,
you need to get started first. Like it's so easy to put put
something off and you learn so much by doing something.
You can't plan all of the error out of a new project.

(47:49):
You know, you have to start something and then be able to
like troubleshoot it and work onit and make it better.
But that that I think at every stage of my career has been the
thing for me is like it, take it, taking that jump and just
starting something, even if it'snot good straight away is is the
way to go. And that that's what I had with
the YouTube channel that I have,which now is kind of nice that

(48:10):
even that gives me a little bit of income as well on the side
from everything else that I do. So people should go and watch my
YouTube channel too, if they're interested in, in, in food and
drink and stuff too. But yeah, I would just, I would
just definitely say like put yourself out there and, and, and
start. The best time to plant a tree
is, you know, last year. And the second best time is now,
you know, so do the thing. Yeah.

(48:31):
I. Mean nobody thought to close
this on and I feel adding implementation is the way to
like I'm I'm reading interestingly enough, what
you're saying is is, is is it a book right now I'm reading it's
called the Lean Startup on how you should like not make these
paper plans because theoretical plans and theoretical ideas like
market research or asking your friends is only get as far can
only get so far in their opinions, you know, and maybe
they're not even your ideal people who are going to dine at

(48:52):
a restaurant or buy your product.
The only way you can do is throwit out at the market and it has
like 3 straps like you measure, learn from the measures that you
have like validated the data andthen grow based on that.
And that's exactly what you've done with like testing these
multiple models and putting themout there.
And that requires just the yeah,the will to like put it out
there without like getting too obsessed with the idea of like,

(49:15):
yes, you are the brand and the name behind it.
But there is no better way than listening to the the users or
your end consumers on what they think about it more than what
how you can improve it on paper practical experience.
Yeah, there's, there's, there's no way when I started doing the
tasting menu the way that I, I, I had seen one person that was a
big inspiration to me was a guy that ran at an 8 seat Michelin

(49:35):
Assad restaurant with just him in the kitchen.
So I, I knew that it was doable to do the, the level of food
that I wanted to do. But again, the only way you
figure out your own way of doingthat is like, like with all
food, like you can't design A dish and not taste it.
You know, you need, you need to start working on it and then you
can, you can get through things.So that is genuine.

(49:56):
That's the thing I would say to everyone with any kind of
potential project, it's like you, you will, you will make it
good by by doing it. You'll, you'll get it the best
it can be by by doing it. But you have to, you have to
start things. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Couldn't agree more.
And I mean, thank you so much for your time, Eddie.
I'm going to put all the resources from you, your
Instagram, your YouTube in the descriptions of people who are
listening can continue this kindof this inspirational journey to

(50:18):
connect with you on on other on other platforms.
But honestly, thank you so much for giving the time for coming.
Oh, thank you out here. It's been an inspirational
journey from it's what's been unique.
It's like you're somebody who's still like choosing the kind of
profession as closely as possible, but doing it at your
own terms and in your own format.
So very excited to listen to andhear about and read about what

(50:38):
comes out of your project even further.
And let's keep in touch. Yeah, Excellent man.
Lovely. To meet you.
Bye, Chris.