November 4, 2025 • 51 mins
In this episode, Furqan speaks with Paul Albert — a French chef turned baker, cheesemaker, and fermentation educator.
After years in fine dining, Paul left restaurant life to explore the living world of microbes. From discovering sourdough in Brazil to teaching fermentation in Paris and volunteering in Nepal, his journey shows how slowing down can open new creative and human possibilities.
They talk about:
Replacing the rush of service with nature’s rhythm
Teaching fermentation as a language of care and context
Finding balance between craft, freedom, and sustainability
Why failure (and patience) are the best teachers
A conversation about curiosity, transformation, and what happens when chefs let food — and life — ferment at their own pace.
If you’ve ever wondered what it looks like to build a life in food on your own terms — this episode is proof that creativity thrives beyond the pass.
🎧 Fugitive Chefs is your window into alternative culinary careers and bold food innovation. New episodes every Tuesday.
👉 Follow, rate us on Spotify, subscribe & comment on YouTube, and share with someone who dreams of cooking differently.
🎙️ Hosted by Furqan from the Fugitive Chefs Podcast
📸 Furqan’s Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv
🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO
🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A
🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT
🔗 Connect with Paul
Instagram: @paul.fermentation
Chapters
00:00 The Freedom of Baking: Choosing Your Hours
12:00 The Science of Bread: From Intuition to Knowledge
14:50 Curiosity and Learning: The Journey of a Baker
17:58 The First Loaf: Learning from Failure
20:33 Transitioning to Independence: From Employee to Entrepreneur
23:21 Teaching Fermentation: Making Knowledge Accessible
26:29 Contextualizing Fermentation: Adapting to Local Needs
29:21 Misconceptions of Fermentation: Understanding the Process
31:16 The Timeless Art of Fermentation
33:25 Community and Craft in Fermentation
34:44 Understanding the Value of Fermented Products
36:52 Transitioning to a New Culinary Path
43:52 Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Social Impact
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of
Fugitive Chefs Podcast, the showabout chefs and food, people who
have stepped away from traditional kitchens and to
create something more personal, more creative, more meaningful.
And today's guest is Paul Albert.
So welcome to the podcast, Paul.Thanks.
Thanks a lot for having me on the podcast today.
Yeah, I know. Thank you.
Thank you for taking time out. But I will just give a small
(00:22):
introduction about Paul and thenPaul, you correct me if I'm
wrong because I think you do so much like so many creative ends
the way you work that I might just miss out on something.
So from from what I understand, Paul is a Baker and a
fermentation consultant. He works with with bread and
principally cheese in the fermentation world.
And his work, basically, from what I've seen on Instagram,
that's how I came to know about him, blends craft, which is, I
(00:43):
mean, I think breads and cheese is a very artisanal craft.
The science side of it. Because again, both of these
professions have a lot of science to it, which some people
know it, some people don't. But even if you don't, you're
working with a lot of science and a lot of community around
it. Because I think projects like
this, it's, it's it, it involvesa lot of people connections more
than the, the ingredients and science.
And above all of that. So he works from sourdough and
(01:05):
wild yeast to, to fermentations in the milk world as well.
And also a lot of education. So this education from what I've
seen from his platform are like videos and content, which is
very educated as well for peoplestarting out in this world,
which I found very interesting. And so I, I, from what I see,
he's built around the fermentation world.
The science is a process, but a philosophy of going slow,
collaborating, transformation. And this episode, basically what
(01:28):
I want to focus with you, Paul, is about how can you trade the
speed of service, like the wholebakery world, waking up four in
the morning, somebody who traditionally works in the
bakery, which is a lot of sacrifice, a lot of slow.
Yeah. Repeating a lot of processes,
which I have to be precise because of the fermentation
world. And how can you change that into
more following nature? And how can you take time and
(01:48):
craft and involve communities? So tell me first of all, if I if
I introduced you well and if youcan fill up, fill up on that.
Yeah, that one. Thanks, Vodka.
That was a really good introduction.
Thanks for that. And one more time thanks for
having me on the the podcast that I really like this podcast
I'm being following almost from the start, from the beginning, I
guess as someone's really happy to be here talking with you
(02:09):
today. Thanks.
So yeah, I think it's a really good introduction.
I'm my background is actually chef the signer.
Like I've had a like a really traditional, let's say,
pragmatic education for becominga chef in France.
It wasn't a school it's called, but please probably heard about
the school in France, of course.And then I kind of had like a
(02:33):
path of I think traditional likelike firing actuators and all
the people that we have on this podcast where working in
restaurants, being financing environments for quite a long
time in France and oversea as well.
And yeah. And then I discovered bread
about sourdough bread, naturallyfermented bread.
That's something that you don't like.
(02:55):
I've already been taught at school in the Crater school
about like, yeah, wild and a live world of fermentation
world, let's say in Brazil as itwas back then, 1012 years ago,
10 years ago, the sign in Brazilworking in restaurants.
And then I discovered the sourdough breast.
Kind of weird for French to say that, but that's.
(03:17):
Exactly that. Like, for me, this surprises me
a lot because you mentioned how like you discovered, yeah, the,
the bread and the whole fermentation of bread side of
things in Brazil and even after your school.
But I'm also curious, like, whatwas your first idea?
I mean, of course, as you said, you grew up in France, you live
over there. What was your approach to bread
before, say, joining culinary school or before taking that up
as a profession? Yeah, I mean, the first it's
(03:40):
everybody in my family is chef. I'm the only one working with
food industry in the food industry in my family care.
But I always really get interested in food in general.
I love to eat like a lot of chefs I guess though, and I
always love magic, like magic tricks and I still love magic.
And I kind of always sent through that like something
magic happening where you turn really simple ingredients,
(04:02):
vegetables or fruits into something amazing.
And one of the reasons I wanted to learn about cooking and
that's why I went to the school and this culinary school in
France, quite well known for like the whole teaching and all
the foundation, I will say to become like a chef.
So understand the foundation of food, like, you know, like all
(04:23):
the traditional and, and I will say classic French techniques,
let's say so because that's one,one thing I must learn.
It's about French food being friends, traditional, you're in
a Ford in this school, not all about like what's happening
oversea. Yeah.
And yeah. And I, I learned a lot about the
basic really basic things and and basic techniques and
(04:44):
understand like what is how to work with this kind of product
or this kind of meat or this kind of fish or whatsoever.
And it was already let's say theentry gate for me for for this
world. And then I kind of continued
this stuff working in Star Star machine restaurants where I used
to eat a lot of all this stuff, but not too much about like this
world of fermentation because it's not really taught in our
(05:06):
school in this school. And I think most of the schools
do not have like I will say, a class dedicated to the lively,
the lively world, not just fermentation, just working with
the life things, the life food. So I can be working with a
flour, can be working with milk or working with just vegetables
and so on. And when I discovered bread
(05:28):
there in Brazil, it's just kind of a super new things for me
because I like. So you work with bacteria.
So what what is this? What Amy the science daughter
helps like, take care of it and how it's maintained alive and
how it's real. Like, then make bread with it.
The Scientist. And it was just completely new
for me. And I guess that's like how
(05:49):
everything started to me like this out of New world that
opened to me, the fermentation world and the live world that
was just really mind blowing forme.
Yeah. But but I mean, I'm just really
curious, like, what was your first exposure to to baking as
an art? Because a lot of chefs I speak
to during my work now with the broadcast as well, many of them
say that even though it is, it is cooking at the end of the
(06:12):
day, if you do bakery or pastry,if you do savory cooking, in the
end it's cooking. But a lot of people who start
off like I myself, tired of liking to like wanting to become
a chef because of like baking and making cookies or cakes at
home. And then realizing the real
world of bakery requires a lot of measurement.
And I'm somebody who would rather like throw stuff in the
pot and make a make, make a broth or make a, make a Stew
(06:34):
rather than measuring that much.So how was that for you?
Because you said you started offas a chef.
I didn't. The transformation happened.
And what were your first? Yeah, struggles to fit into that
world. Yeah, it was hard though, like
first of all, just facing the reality of what being a chef, I
think it was really hard. Like you all know, that's what
the podcast is also about. But the change in the changement
(06:54):
with the bakery was it didn't really happen at the 1st place
when I was in Brazil. It happened when I really became
a Baker, like a full time Baker on the, on the, on the duty.
And this is what that was then back then traveling and living
and traveling in Asia, living inSingapore.
And I worked for a company that's they have a couple of
(07:14):
bakers in Singapore and they wanted to implement the
sourdough bread, like sourdough processes, natural fermentation
in their bread. Like, I don't know, probably
between 600 to 1000 bread a day.And I didn't really scale about
this because I'm not a Baker. I'm not a trained Baker.
Basically, I've had to learn through different other bakers
just by myself also. And I think that's the time I
(07:37):
realized when I was like, I think you will be fine to do
Saturday or for like 6600, sorryto 1000 bread a day.
It's just straight out and it just like I'll just throw this
on the table. And when I actually went to the
bakery and I saw all these machines and the quantity of
people working in the bakery andthe amount of bread that needs
to be produced per day and implement, and that's all
(07:59):
fermentation processes into thisbreak where I was like, all
right, so maybe I was too fast. I did it.
I did say too fast. Are you as OK to do that?
And that's something where I face the reality of it where
like you were saying, a Baker start usually really early
morning or even like late night start starting there 11:00 PM to
finish that probably in lunchtime the next day.
(08:21):
And it just not my reality. Even being a chef for a long
time, working like stylish restaurant where you have long
days and so on. It was totally new for me to
face this new reality as a Baker.
And, and things worked out like I was finally able to implement
all this there, even if it was areally hard task.
But I thought that's what I, I don't realize and decide that
(08:44):
you can make amazing bread with the good flower and so on and
good product and also the good process, but working with good
hours as well and having like a proper life.
And it's possible, though that'show I, it took me a while and I
tried to like change and shift things around and, but it was
really, really hard to face the reality of a Baker because I
wasn't prepared at all basicallyof the world.
(09:08):
Yeah, I mean, it's super interesting.
What do you say? Because a lot of people I speak
also like the first few episodesI had with Fugitive Chefs
podcast, a lot of them who shifted to bakery or like not
just baking. I think other food ends with the
whole idea of the podcast is where can a chef work where they
don't have where they can choosetheir hours, which is something
you specifically said about baking.
And I think what makes that special is because with bakery
(09:29):
or with anything that is produced before facing a
customer, you can choose your hours.
So if you know the customer is going to show up and you don't
really have to be present over there and you can program these
things. I think that's a very
interesting thing you said. So I think bakery can be one of
these professions, but also, I don't know, food photography or
consulting menus. These things are not really
customer facing. They're business facing.
So you can choose to, yeah, beefthe hours you want to be free.
(09:52):
So of course it requires more work.
I think it's a lot of risks in that as well.
Not everybody can choose to do that profession.
But I feel yeah, also with like packaged food, a lot of chefs
moving into packaged food is because the customer goes when
they want to pick up the food, but then you're preparing also
when you think it's it's right to prepare that.
So that's very interesting for me, but like I would love to
also hear from you, Paul, like your understanding of like
(10:13):
getting into bread, say after Brazil, when you saw the
exposure to that, and then todayhow you do things.
How much of A role do you think science has played?
Like I think First off, when youstart doing things, you do it
because you repeat processes of what somebody has told you or
what you've seen on a Reddit blog that OK, you know,
sourdough should be done like this, so and so, but then
understanding the science of it is what you do today.
(10:34):
So how much of a difference do you think has it made for you as
a person and also in your products, I would say?
That's a good question. I feel so like I told you
earlier, I didn't have any real background of Baker.
I mean, they're just really conventional baking in the
school, like the bread is first in an hour or so, two hours or
so, and then you bake it after just really precise, precise
(10:57):
measurement. And I also have a lot of problem
with measurements like you. So it's a lot of like, I think
being, being a chef, the train chef, that's something a lot of
applied into fermentation as well, where it's a lot of
feeling, feeling and, and, and touch and, and, and, and
ceilings in general, like the smile, the loop, the chip, the
touch of its and so on. And the taste, of course.
(11:19):
But it's a lot of, I apply a lotof this philosophy that I always
had as a chef north of as well into the world of fermentation
and even more into the world of like troll fermented bread, like
sourdough bread. And I feel this helped me a lot
to like kind of get a bit further away of like
conventional way of making bread.
And I've learned when I was in Brazil with the guys called
(11:42):
Rachael Rito, he wasn't Baker aswell.
He learned a little bit like going into different countries
with different all the bakers. He was there working with
marketing before. So when I learned with him, it
was just like keeper feeding process, I have to say, like not
random, but just like, Oh yeah, it looks like this.
I just put some more water. And then and for me it was kind
(12:03):
of weird because I was explaining something way more
controlled, way more precise. And then I've learned from this
guy in that Baker's called DiscoBaker, which is an amazing
bakery in Rio de Janeiro. And and I think the fact that I
get into bread like this kind ofshow me that the way, like the
way you I should learn maybe baking and how to make bread be
(12:26):
that way. So be like more something
feelings and trying fermenting all the time, failing a lot,
which is like part of the process, I feel, and this is the
best are when you failing, you understand why you failed.
And then after traveling other countries, I've met all the
bakers and all the practices also of making bread.
(12:46):
I've been working a year in a ina mill as a Miller in Australia.
You understand also the technology of milling flour and
this helped me a lot also to understand like how you build
the bread and when you nail the flour in different ways of
milling the flour in different types of grains, how you get to
this results. But I think it's a mix of
(13:07):
everything is like of course, meeting people and professionals
that have different approaches of how to, you know, succeed
into bread making. But also I think it's
self-taught somehow, because if you don't have this part of
experimental like experimentation part on your
end, I think it's different. It's very difficult to get the
to grow and understand better your craft.
(13:29):
So I feel it's like a blend of different settings where
reading, studying, trying, mailing and also meeting people
and opening your, the concept and opening your mind to like,
oh, so you get this kind of bread you make like this, but
there is so this kind of way of making it, which leads to the
same product. So, and then you kind of like
create patterns in your head. And then when you you go to
(13:53):
somewhere and you get a kind of flower or get a kind of a grain
that you're going to work for. And then you kind of apply this
pattern. It's kind of ridiculous in your
head and you urge it together ina little like, OK, so I want to
get this. Maybe I did this with this, this
try this kind of flower, this kind of grain last time.
(14:14):
And migration is kind of never thought.
And then you merge it and you try and you you succeed or not.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's super interesting what you
told me. And this is what the whole point
of the question was like how something which is which comes
so naturally because I think thenature also has a way of leading
you into very obvious. Like later you discover that
(14:35):
these things make scientific sense.
But also nature has a way of showing you that, you know, do
this and this makes the most sense.
But I feel, as you said, like a Rubik cube, like building
blocks, like once you know what every block is, what role
they're playing, you can definitely make a better
product. And I think in the end of it, a
lot of characteristics, I see you in you, because in the end
also I'm trying to not just interview people like you who
(14:56):
are fugitive chefs, but also kind of building like, how did
you guys make it? Or how did I would say we guys
make it outside the restaurant and still be creative, still be
relevant, still contribute to the same food ecosystem?
I think to break that down. And for the people and listeners
who are listening to this may belooking for tips.
I'm like, you know, how can I inspire myself from Powell's
part or some other guest's part?We need to break them down for
(15:17):
it. And for me, one of the key
takeaways I see from your conversation is curiosity.
Like you said, going to the middle to, to learn how to meet
in Australia or picking up booksand reading about it,
questioning people, seeing others like the like the chef
you mentioned in Brazil, Rafael Britto, seeing how he does
things and also seeing how he inspired you.
Like if he can make it, you can make it as well.
I think that's we're trying trying with the podcast with the
(15:38):
end of the day, but just to justto ask you something more about
like your beginnings into this. Do you have any memory of your
first loaf that you made or first format that you made?
What was that like? Like what?
What stuck from there for you? It was, it was, I think, yeah,
I, I think I remember, I think when everything started was
(15:58):
yeah, in Brazil when I really discovered this world of natural
fermentation regret. But I for a while in a
restaurant, it's called Lamarinein an island in France,
Alexandquin, really amazing place, an amazing chef.
And the first bread I've made. I think there.
It was there because I wanted you wanted to deal up some kind
(16:20):
of bread there with the philosophy of this restaurant,
which is like super, you know, aligned with like natural
processors and so on. And I was like, I heard about
something, I don't even know what I lived on, which we'll
call it in France. And I think I tried some random
stuff that really didn't worked out because we had this really
(16:40):
beautiful wood fire, but I didn't even know how to bake out
a food fire at that time. So I just so many variables that
came through. I was like, Oh yeah, I'm going
to try, It's going to be fine. So I found this book, French
book and think about natural segmentation like the salad or
bread. And I tried this recipe just
didn't work at all. Came out like as a lot of like
(17:02):
bakers missing out there, blood work, super sour, nothing worked
out and so on. And I was I was just like, OK,
maybe then baking is less for me.
Maybe maybe this is too complicated.
There's too many things coming up and too many variables that I
actually at that time I didn't know about.
And I still learned about it. But I think it was a really
(17:24):
terrible lot. And yeah, and I feel this is, I
don't know, it's probably something that is related to
craft work. People working with craft in
general, I think you never really happy, like 100,000%
happy, I can say. So with the final product in
that sense, where I feel the best part when you work with
(17:48):
craft and even more limitation of Live 3rd is when you know
that there is a room for improvement and there is always
a room for improvement in anything that you're doing.
Anything that just about fermentation, but anything in
life in general. But I think I'm always into that
like, all right, so yeah, now I get a really cool, really nice
book and I'm happy with it. But next time I can do something
(18:11):
a little bit different and I work on more maybe, I don't
know, the hydration, I mean justrandom variables, but hydration
of the humidity that I was working on that day, the
temperature of the lab, the lab,the lab where I was working,
the, the bakery, the Florence. So there's so many variables
they can play with. So I feel that first look was
(18:35):
really a nightmare. And I had some more around the
the journey and like things thatI wasn't really happy with this.
But yeah, I think it's we were talking about we're talking
about patterns and block. I think you said block.
The word broader is really, yeah, I think you're really
metaphoric and really clean whatit said.
(18:55):
I feel that you always have thisthis relationship where you feel
that you get better in what you're doing and you feel like
you reach a certain amount like of knowledge and so on.
And you feel like, oh, now I'm, I'm, I'm like pretty stuff.
I know pretty well my my subject.
And then when all of the blogs actually not in the right place
(19:15):
and you like fail new product, cheese, bread whatsoever and
he's like, and it's a big failure and you're like, all
right, so I don't know about what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I mean it's. It's a learning curve and I
mean, words like the ones you'resharing of, like sharing your
failures also is very important because at the end of the day, I
mean, a format like podcast, of course, or like longer videos
have the space to talk this because if not on Instagram,
(19:38):
we're all just sharing our are best low for the the more that's
or the most success moment. So I mean, this is the reason
why I want to hear. I want to hear all the all the
all the content in your journey to get there, you know, but like
moving on from there. Powell, when did you like like
from working for somebody, from learning the craft from
somebody? When did you make the
(19:58):
transformation into doing your own projects?
What was your first like workingfor yourself or working as a as
a freelancer or a business? When did that shift happening of
not working in a restaurant? It was pretty recent actually.
It was November last year. So it's got to be a year.
Well, it's in a year and a half.Nice.
It's a year and a half that's things shift a little bit for
(20:20):
me. I was traveling for a long time,
so I was out of friend for a couple of years, like more than
10 years. I was like traveling overseas
and working always for work and always for learning and
discovering new things. I decided to go back to France
last year in November, basicallylike the end of October and
November, I can come back to my country.
(20:41):
And when I came back to my country, I didn't see nice.
It's been a while, like the lastperson I worked or was in
Singapore. So I was like about five years
ago, four years ago. So I really like kind of shifted
slowly towards working for someone, but as not as a chef,
but as a cheesemaker, as a Baker.
(21:02):
I was living in Poland for a while, working cheesemaker and a
Baker in a farm and it's all 40 habitants sitting in Poland.
And that's when a lot of things started from me where I start to
give a lot of classes in that farm and workshops or the people
that were coming to the farm to stay there and eat at the
(21:26):
restaurant and so on. And I kind of really started
enjoying the pedagogic and unless you call this in English,
like teaching and giving to someone the, the knowledge.
And when I came back in France, I was like, I think I don't want
to work for someone I know to work for someone from now.
And it was really, really hard. And for me because I didn't want
(21:47):
what will be the shape of it? Like I was thinking maybe I
should have put a slice. I should have been like a
structure where I can put the place, something that I can
because I always wanted to have like this impact on the
community somehow with knowledgeand maybe giving them some also
products. So I didn't know how the thing
we should look like. It was really messy in my head
(22:09):
because so many things at the same time that I wanted to do
until the moment where a couple of friends that live in Europe
have restaurants reach me out. They're oh, Paul should come
here one day and just like help us to make some bread or help us
to make some cheese, help us to like settle some kind of
Huntsman and and miso and whatever.
(22:32):
And I was like, yeah, why not? But I decided to go into last
places as a friend without beinglike a professional at that time
when I came back in France and Istarted seeing that there's a
little opportunity like to help restaurants or some kind of
places that like bakeries or other places that sells food
(22:53):
and, and produce food and how toshow them like some systems and
way to implement fermentation with the product that they have
that surround the place. So at the beginning I was
starting with restaurants that have maybe garden or farm and
then, you know, go there and then they can use their product
and have this whole cycle around.
(23:16):
It's like using from a tuition also as like recycling things in
general. And and from there I met other
people in Europe and in France that I could help with all the
food projects related and becomemore autonomous in their place.
(23:37):
It doesn't make sense. And then and then the school and
now I'm for like most more than like I think 10 months now I'm
teaching a school in Paris between our school a
fermentation herclips like different approach of
fermentation. So it's mainly bread, a little
(24:00):
bit of cheese and a little bit of also like beverages and
working with Koji like all the done one guy world, let's say.
Yeah. And that's how like this
started. And I, I don't know, for people
listeners, I will say, well, youhave a feeling that you can do
it. Just do it because it took me a
(24:22):
long time to like you're saying like when this thing shifts for
me, took me a really long time. It was really hard for me make
the decision and feeling that I'm comfortable enough to work
for myself. And this is super hard because
I've been yeah, yeah. Working.
Yeah, now we've all faced. This, I mean, once, once you put
(24:42):
yourself out there and there's no restaurant behind you,
there's I mean, you have to sellyourself at the end of the day
or like talk into these rooms ofsay the principal of this
college and convince them that you can, you can give the
service or talk to your even your friends.
I think it's, it's also more personal, but it's, I think it's
a good tactic that you use or like it.
It happened naturally for you, which I would also suggest
people, if you have people in your ecosystem who trust you or
(25:03):
who, who, who recommend you to do something for them.
It's a good like a wake up call for you that if somebody wants
this aspect of me, I shouldn't be shy for charging for it or
for for going towards and makingthis into a package.
I think that's, that's very smart what you did.
But also, Paul, I'm very interested because I feel
fermentation is again, something.
So it's so sensory, it's so intuitive, it's it's so natural.
(25:26):
How do you like, what is your approach to converting that into
teaching? Like for example, right now at
the school you said in Paris or also like the stuff you were
doing in community in Poland. What are the what are the
methods you use to make it more teachable for somebody who maybe
does not have as much knowledge as you you know?
I think is the it's all about vocabulary and the language that
(25:47):
like which words you're going touse.
Basically like trying to speak amore easy language about
commentation. If you want to teach about
commentation, like how to find the right words and the right,
we'll say no French and forget the word in English.
Like, OK, It's like condense thevocabulary.
(26:11):
Yeah, simplify, simplify, simplify.
Yeah, yeah, simplify. Not because you don't want to
give all the information. I think it's not about like
keeping secrets or whatever, because it's not about this.
The fermentation is everyone needs to appropriate limitation
to themselves is they are very noise to the product they have
available and so on also to their life.
(26:32):
You know, it's like just what you have time to do and you
don't have time to do. And you know, you've come to
teach people like you're going to spend 8 hours in the kitchen
to make bread for yourself. No, it's not possible because
people have other things to me. So how to find like a ton of
things and how to find house andand and and ideas and recipes
(26:54):
and so on for making it available for the people that
that have like one hour available in per week.
Make this, for example, or for students that maybe because I
have a lot of students here in the school that I'm not
interested in to fermentation, but it's part of the program.
The how to try it a little bit more fun in a way and more
(27:15):
accessible to approachable per person that actually I'm not
interested in to like take fermentation or acidic
fermentation, if you get what I mean.
Yeah. So I feel it's all about like
vocabulary, like how you find how you understand people that
comes to you if they're professional, of course you use
different vocabulary and you're going to try to.
(27:35):
I was in Nepal a couple of months ago or some kind of
social works there with a schoolthat wants to they basically
receive our ocean orphan people.Yeah, come from orphanage that
and they give them certificationinto the food industry.
(27:56):
They they, they learn for one year, six months, maybe sometime
2 years a job. They learn like how to become a
chef, how to become a someday, how to become a barrister.
And then they have a certification and they can one
deal with good life. They have they can find work.
So it's a really important social work that's been done in
(28:16):
capital. Yeah.
And I went there for a couple ofweeks and when I was talking
about vocabulary, I came there without really knowing I I
wanted to do something, teach them about bread, teach them
about cheese. Like it would like how to set up
my mind as I will come for a restaurant in a couple of days.
I mean, just even hours. I realized that they were
(28:38):
looking for that. They were looking for like how
we can from the product that we have available in Nepal, how we
can make your fermentation skilland make something that makes
sense for the fuel and make sense for the people that work
and that that studying in this goal.
And then we'll buy the product from this goal because the goal
was also selling all the things that we're producing and and
(29:00):
then yeah, one more time it. So you'd have to choose the
vocabulary in the words that you're going to give to the, the
person that you sent to you and also the product that I have
available around you and the ecosystem that I've that I've
around them to apply the skills on it and to make sense because
(29:20):
that's the most important. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I love what
you said about like, I think it's very important, as you
said, like the vocabulary, but also contextualizing of of I
think as you said, I think I loved what you said about the
fermentation that everybody has to make it their own.
And it's not just about like theway it's going right now, you
know, it's become a buzzword andeverybody just everybody wants
to mention the word Koji or misoor kombucha or caffeine or
(29:42):
whatever you call it. In the end, I think it's very
important that yet, you know, some skill, which I mean, bread
and cheese works perfectly in your context living in France,
but maybe that's not what something wants to make in, in,
in Kathmandu. You know, maybe they want to
focus on upcycling. As you said.
I think fermentation has a lot to do with using, using
resources, which are called foodwaste, where they can be
converted into, into, into nutrition for people who are
(30:05):
short on resources. I think.
So I, I love that. And I also wanted to take this
moment towards a question that Ihad for you about like the
misconception of fermentation. Like you've beautifully
explained how fermentation can be contextualized for every
community and they can use it their best way.
But one of the few misconceptions or
misunderstanding that you see around fermentation that kind of
(30:25):
you think is, isn't the correct way to approach fermentation.
I don't know. Like for me it is how a lot of
us are consuming fermented products which are already
pasteurized and sterilized and sold in supermarkets.
For me for example that is 1 take away.
Or like you, you drink a lot of functional drinks with microbes
and there is no live microbes init.
(30:47):
For you, what is like the fume and misunderstandings about
fermentation? The thing first thing, and I
think you will agree with that. I'm I'm a really big fan of
history. I feel a story like the history
of our civilization. It's something that I fascinate
and I feel that just fermentation is here for more
than 10,000 years prison in our civilization and even probably
(31:11):
longer than that. It made us like who we are
nowadays is basically subtract alittle bit.
It's the fire in the sanitation that made the person that we are
nowadays, the the, the, the whole Satians that we are.
I feel the fermentation. First of all, it's just always
been here and it will be all always here.
(31:32):
I hope so. And that's that's the most
beautiful thing. That's why I think what I was
saying about appropriate yourself.
The fermentation is because every single culture around the
world are connected with fermentation at some point.
And and this is like that's that's why I feel that
fermentation sometime big, like you said, the buzz around
(31:55):
cementation and and the everyone.
Oh yeah, because you know, I've put this fermentation
everywhere. I'm I'm from the shame
background. So you and I feel that when you
you you talk about steroid. I think fermentation IS1 knife
in your knife case, let's say you know, is one ingredients,
(32:15):
one of the thousand you're in that you have.
So I think people are taking it a bit too seriously from
addiction. That's the first thing I will
say more time. The fact that is that old and
that part of us we're not supposed to take that seriously.
It's needs to stay fun and he needs to stay in the in the in
(32:36):
the in the in the context of something that is always been
here. We'll always be here.
We always have new things comingup.
I mean, new vision of it and, and, and people doing it in
different ways. So it's not it will never be
settled as the first thing I think about segmentation and
what I will come and say, yeah, because I have the best recipe
(32:57):
for kombucha whatsoever. Whatever it is, I feel this
first something to take away. Like you said, The thing is it,
you know, it's forever. Everyone has his own
circumstances and surrounding and context about making
fermentation. That's the first thing is nobody
owns it. Everyone owns it.
(33:19):
It's part of our culture. That's what attract me the most
into fermentation. Now.
I feel sometimes people take it too seriously.
And I feel also one of the reasons why I left the
establishment world and this, this finally restaurant world is
because I found out that, you know, the craft world and live
world like fermentation world ofbranch and salt, the community
(33:39):
that surrounds it. It's also amazing.
So I I met a lot of amazing people all around summitation
and that and being more with my sort of community compared to
filing restaurant there I found really different.
But anyway, come back to your question.
I feel that now we are in a in asociety that everybody,
(34:00):
everything has to be a lot of ithas to be marketed and make
profit out of it. So when I see the same as you
mentioned earlier, beverages that pasteurize and don't have
any more live thing in it, it's it's a beverage, it's probably
delicious, but it's the the, thethe nutritious facts and what it
brings your body into your mind.It's not the same.
(34:22):
It's not the same index. And I think for people who are
thinking would come back to vocabulary, but that's for
people to understand that it's not just even making kombucha
themselves. It's going to be just no, what
is it and why it's a life's product will be better for them.
(34:42):
So I think it's sometimes you are still out because now you're
to do everything yourself at home.
You have to make your own. If you have time do so and it's
good. It's even a meditation to make
it. But I feel at least if you know
what is mature, you know what I mean.
So misconception about the meditation is a formation giving
as much as possible informations, but also like
(35:05):
people are struggling. A lot of farmers and bakers and
cheese makers all around the world are struggling to maintain
use ancestral ways of making things.
And the society is not helping because you have either a lot of
things on the market that's coming up that is super cheap
and sells this as like a stamented product for you or
(35:25):
making it complicated. Like I'm thinking that about
like the cheese making in Francethat the rules are to making
friends are so difficult to likeuse natural techniques and be
able to market your products. It's a so hardcore like it's a
lot of rules to respect and that's shift the way from how
(35:47):
it's supposed to be done using natural starters, natural
materials and so on. So I feel like this is the the
big dilemma. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, super interesting. All that you've said, I
completely relate with it. And I feel one of the key points
you said is like this education,the information that you can
find, especially today. I feel today nobody has an
excuse of not having information.
(36:09):
Of course, we have sometimes a lot of misleading information as
well. So it's important to know the
sources and that's why we have people like you who can like
verify these sources and, and say which of this information is
correct. But it's important to educate
yourself on like what you're looking for because maybe you're
looking for a certain thing, butyou don't need to go for
kombucha if it's not in your, inyour context, if your context
may be caffeine milks makes morescans, skier makes more sense,
(36:31):
yogurt makes more sense. I mean, every culture has some
format which gives you the same properties, you know, But also I
would like to know power, like the idea of this podcast, you
know, like how, how people like you end up being fugitive chefs
and what does it bring to them. So I would like to know from you
like both sides of the coin, like what are the freedoms that
you've gained from this transition, that one which is
like one year, one year old, this transition of yours?
(36:52):
And what challenges do you have?Like one thing use mentioned
yourself, you know, the community you've found without
fermentation is much more wholesome than finding
restaurants where it's a lot of struggle pressures, long hours.
So what a few freedoms and few challenges that you could
summarize this transition has bought you.
It's thank you couple if I need to list them and it's a really
good question that I actually never get asked this person
(37:15):
before, but it's a very good question.
That's why you're really good. Forget.
I feel I think I have to let them the first one.
It's probably the routine. When you're in restaurant and
you know that you have a routinethat it's kind of like already
wrote or the whole day already already already there.
You know exactly what you're going to do.
(37:36):
Of course things change, but youhave like some kind of like
organization, like something really clear in your mind that
you get used to for years, like working restaurants, even in
bakeries, even in places, cheesebakery, whatever, having like a
pattern like OK, morning, I do this, then I do this, then I do
(37:56):
this, then I do this. Like everything's already
written on the paper in your head, in your paper, and why
not? But I think the first thing that
was the most complicated for me was this change of the routine
where the work that I'm doing right now, it's a lot of small,
either medium or bigger projects.
(38:16):
But it's a lot of like things that is has come split in a lot
of places, physical place, not in the same place, but also in
my in my hand. This is like sometimes I'm going
to work on a project that is I went last year, beginning of
this year. Sorry for a project in Comfort
in Mannheim in Germany, OK, a pizza place that they wanted to
(38:39):
settle, really good pizza place that they make a natural
fermentation with the pizza, butthey wanted to have homemade
cheeses there using natural techniques, using milk.
That's from a really small farm nearby.
That's a project. And then on the side of that, I
had a project for a restaurant that it was more based on like
beverages. I wanted to develop some
(39:00):
beverages. And so I feel that just on a
daily basis organization and in your head, it's out of or or for
for the first probably six months, it was really difficult
for me to understand what my schedule look like.
(39:22):
That's probably the first thing that I haven't thought about
that your routine in your organization that's less likely
changed from working in a restaurant or from working in a
bakery. This was really hard because
couldn't pun things properly. I couldn't like hack chip on
things at the right time. It was really cool for me to
organize. OK, so I've this in two weeks,
(39:43):
this in one week, but in one week I only to show them a
couple of cheese already made. So I have to do it three months
this hour and then it's like allthis kind of super difficult
organization. Now I have get it, but if it's
still complicated, that's the thing.
That's the first thing I will say so for.
The changes and the columns. Another one is also you have to
(40:09):
pay bills and this is like the always the thing and we have to
pay bills and trying to find missions that makes sense me
values and philosophy talking, but also being able to pay
bills. So it was really hard at the
(40:29):
beginning because I wanted to trying to do as much as project
that makes sense to my perspective of things like
helping community, going on project that will help people,
help the people that work in therestaurants in terms of even
organization like putting bread in the restaurant is not a
(40:51):
simple thing to do. And, and trying to make good
bread, it's not a simple thing to do, but how to make then this
job easy for them with the, the machines that they have
available without asking them tobuy a dough mixer for like 10K
doesn't make sense. Those little things that I
wanted to do as missions and at the same time paying bills,
somebody be able to like earningenough money to leave horribly.
(41:15):
I you know, I like a lot of stuff in the chefs and good,
good philosophy chefs out there,but just doing what they like to
do. We're not looking after too much
of like that be becoming a millionaire whatsoever is just
doing what we like to do and help the community out there.
And this was a big struggle at the beginning because, you know,
(41:39):
sometimes the restaurant doesn'thave a lot of budgets for this
kind of thing. So, you know, I had to like
sometimes do for free or help them like, OK, so I'm going to
come there and going to go home this for five days.
But actually I'm going to cover you one day work.
And you were mentioning this at the beginning, like saying that,
(42:00):
yeah, it's difficult to put a price on much of the day.
And you know, it's one again, one more time.
It's a learning process of you're learning how you can put
value on your work. And this is really hard and
still hard to me of like knowingwhat I can provide as a as as
teaching and giving knowledge ofsomething and at the same time
(42:22):
being being able to get this in return something in return.
So this was really hard too. It's like the fact that you're
on yourself now is just nobody is backing you up.
You have to find a way of makingthings sustainable in the big,
the big S your value, paying your bills and so on.
(42:43):
And this is like struggling, it's hard, but it's work.
But it's hard. Yeah, that's OK to be always on.
It's like every single day of meOK, I have to did did this and
and put this in now whole thing in the next cell sheet and then
you're like, OK, so now this makes sense.
And yeah, it's hard. Yeah, I know it's.
It's interesting what you said part and it's it's also very
(43:05):
important for me in the podcast also to cover all these sites
because of course, in the beginning you spoke a lot about
the creative freedom that you get working for yourself,
getting to deep dive into these things, having your own
schedule. Like you, you covered a lot of
positives in the beginning of the podcast, but I think it's
equally important to listen to this part as well.
Like it's because everybody listening would be like, Oh,
it's so cool if the grass is very green on the other side.
But of course, you need to learnthese these skills because
(43:28):
there's many you just can't. I mean, you can maybe hire
somebody to do your social mediaor to do some Billings or your
accounts and stuff. But at the end of the day, you
have to show up and you have to organize your schedule.
You have to organize the finances, you have to make your
own budgets. See what how you can commit to
these overlapping projects, which is each other.
So that's, yeah, super interesting to hear from you
pal, from your first hand experience.
(43:49):
And before we close the podcast,I wanted to to ask, what are you
excited about in the future? Like if you want to share
something that you're excited about or looking forward to to
in the in the months to go. What I'm looking forward to this
for now I'm continuing what I'm doing and it's doing great and
it was it. This is all professional
perspective of it where I kind of find the balance now of what
(44:12):
we are talking about. That took me a little bit of
time back to kind of find the balance.
But what I try, I will try to do.
My partner, my girlfriend's partner, he's working with
social works. She's not in the food industry
at all. She's making with social works
and I've been doing a couple of social works since I've been
(44:32):
working for myself, 18 of the one in Nepal.
And I feel that for the future, what I'm saying, what I'm doing
right now will take. So if you take the shape of a
structure, physical structure orif he keeps going on something
more nomad that is also AIDS andcolumns, I will say I would love
to incorporate way more of the social works into what I'm doing
(44:57):
in the way that I feel that is really important.
I still forget that's for these people.
And you know, it's interconnected all the time
doing the work that I'm doing with like chef and restaurant
and skiing and other projects like that that's give me
(45:17):
budgets, give me some money to put it aside and then use a bit
of this money to then do social projects.
That's kind of a check sure thatI like and it's kind of a
structure that I feel that I cangive back at some point.
I can give back to people that need it.
And I I'm excited through that because I feel I will continue
(45:40):
trying this to find this balancewhere I can do both.
I can work as professionals out of it, like professionals with
experience and and help them to settle some project segmentation
projects making their cheat because they have a really good
David farm nearby they want to work with and make a business
out of it. And on the side of that, taking
(46:03):
some time, all my free time to go and make social works
somewhere that is linked to whatI'm doing mutation brain making
chin making related. And what I was talking about
structure, because at some pointthat I feel that this no man
work is tiring. And you know, when you want to
measure with some family, familyproject and personal project,
(46:28):
maybe having a structure where Ican merge these two together,
being able to produce something and incorporate some social
initiating in that project. So that's something I'm really
excited about because I feel that same thing that I will
fulfill myself as a craft maker because I will be able to
produce things and work with my hands because that's what I like
(46:49):
the most. Put hands in the bread, put
hands in the cheese, put hands in all this, but also being able
to give back to the community here, giving knowledge, sharing
knowledge, you know, having a platform where people can
exchange and learn. So I think this is what I'm
exciting the most about it. And I still have a couple of
travels coming up. I'm going to Philippines for
(47:12):
some work out there and for the same reasons teaching people
about bread, cheese and some fermentation aspect other all
the fermentation processes and also helping them to settle this
with their local farms around and creating more solid network
in their environments in their contact.
Yeah, I'm really excited about about this.
(47:34):
Yeah, super cool projects, Paul.I mean, very inspirational what
you said about the social projects and how you are trying
to also form your business in a way that it gives gives it is
sustainable in a way that you can sustain it financially.
But also it creates these. Yeah.
Like a like a like a an effort to do to to stake your craft for
those who can afford it, like restaurants who are giving you
consulting projects, but also like the projects that you said
(47:54):
about Nepal and the ones you mentioned right now.
Super interesting. And and lastly, Powell, anything
you would like to leave for the listeners?
Anything you would like to say to somebody who's maybe thinking
of doing that, kind of take a leap like yours?
You know, people listening to this episode maybe are inspired
and they say, you know what, this sounds cool.
I have possibly the skills that I could also make it like Paul
has done. What would you say to them?
I will say it will be hard. It will have been say in there,
(48:20):
it will be difficult, but do it if you feel that this makes
sense to you and you want to do it because it's aligned with
your values, it's aligned with watch who you are and it aligns
with your perspective for the future.
Do it like you get everything inplace, all the motivation and
the effort you can even more that you can sometime it will be
(48:44):
super hard, but I think it's just like give everything you
have into something you believe in and you will, let's say, and
you will, you will, you will achieve what you wanted to go.
That's what I will say to Paul ayear, a year ago that I think
and to people that listening to this podcast, I feel that
sometimes we can be, we can havethis like visions look capable
(49:09):
or you cannot do it because it'stoo difficult.
It's too hard. Maybe I'm not this imposter
syndrome, you know, like feelingan imposter in what you're
doing. Like I never had any grad
school. I've never been to grad school.
I never went to a chain school. That's why I didn't teach it how
to, you know, like learning, youknow, learning exactly your long
way of learning things. So I feel it's just like if you
(49:33):
believe in yourself and if you're, if you're so confident
with what you will work with andyour guts is telling you, you
should go that way, Go that way and put every single piece drops
of energy out of it until the end.
As another advice, they're supersharp and what's happening
(49:53):
around you, where something around you because Facebook
comes to you, come to you and sometimes you need to be sharp
on that moment you can that's aswell another.
Definitely power. I mean, thank you so much for
this. Also, like it makes much more
sense because when somebody likeyou says it like who is just
like one year ago done this and that's exactly the advice you
would give yourself one year ago.
(50:14):
I think that's the whole value of it and the whole point of the
podcast. And yeah, I would say everybody
who's listening out there, we'vealso started a new fugitive chef
circle. So if you're listening on
Spotify or YouTube or Instagram,whatever, you'll see a link in
bio where we are connecting people like Powell and others
who have been on the podcast andthose who are listening.
Because I feel that in the beginning the podcast was just
like interviewing people. But now we are trying more
(50:34):
formats where possibly in the future I get a message from
somebody who wants to do the path like Powell and I could
help connect somebody like Powell beyond the episode.
If you need something which could like help you open some
doors, we would love to do that for you.
And, and to you, Paul, I mean, thank you so much for reminding
us that fermentation is not justa buzzword.
It's not something just new and trendy.
It's very historic, as you said through your conversations, but
(50:57):
it's also about patience, curiosity, transformation, the
communities with what you said about your projects in Nepal or
how you learn in Brazil or what you're doing with the social
work right now, the the farm youwork in Poland.
There's so much of community within this, within this
fermentation world. So yeah, thank you once again.
I, I think it's, it's been a beautiful, beautiful podcast.
We link your work and your projects in the in the links
(51:18):
down below. And yeah, thank you so much for
joining, Paul. Thanks.
Thanks so much for for you too recently.
Thank you. Thank you listeners for
listening out and this has been Fugitive Chefs and see you on
the next episode.
So hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of
Fugitive Chefs Podcast, the showabout chefs and food, people who
have stepped away from traditional kitchens and to
create something more personal, more creative, more meaningful.
And today's guest is Paul Albert.
So welcome to the podcast, Paul.Thanks.
Thanks a lot for having me on the podcast today.
Yeah, I know. Thank you.
Thank you for taking time out. But I will just give a small
(00:22):
introduction about Paul and thenPaul, you correct me if I'm
wrong because I think you do so much like so many creative ends
the way you work that I might just miss out on something.
So from from what I understand, Paul is a Baker and a
fermentation consultant. He works with with bread and
principally cheese in the fermentation world.
And his work, basically, from what I've seen on Instagram,
that's how I came to know about him, blends craft, which is, I
(00:43):
mean, I think breads and cheese is a very artisanal craft.
The science side of it. Because again, both of these
professions have a lot of science to it, which some people
know it, some people don't. But even if you don't, you're
working with a lot of science and a lot of community around
it. Because I think projects like
this, it's, it's it, it involvesa lot of people connections more
than the, the ingredients and science.
And above all of that. So he works from sourdough and
(01:05):
wild yeast to, to fermentations in the milk world as well.
And also a lot of education. So this education from what I've
seen from his platform are like videos and content, which is
very educated as well for peoplestarting out in this world,
which I found very interesting. And so I, I, from what I see,
he's built around the fermentation world.
The science is a process, but a philosophy of going slow,
collaborating, transformation. And this episode, basically what
(01:28):
I want to focus with you, Paul, is about how can you trade the
speed of service, like the wholebakery world, waking up four in
the morning, somebody who traditionally works in the
bakery, which is a lot of sacrifice, a lot of slow.
Yeah. Repeating a lot of processes,
which I have to be precise because of the fermentation
world. And how can you change that into
more following nature? And how can you take time and
(01:48):
craft and involve communities? So tell me first of all, if I if
I introduced you well and if youcan fill up, fill up on that.
Yeah, that one. Thanks, Vodka.
That was a really good introduction.
Thanks for that. And one more time thanks for
having me on the the podcast that I really like this podcast
I'm being following almost from the start, from the beginning, I
guess as someone's really happy to be here talking with you
(02:09):
today. Thanks.
So yeah, I think it's a really good introduction.
I'm my background is actually chef the signer.
Like I've had a like a really traditional, let's say,
pragmatic education for becominga chef in France.
It wasn't a school it's called, but please probably heard about
the school in France, of course.And then I kind of had like a
(02:33):
path of I think traditional likelike firing actuators and all
the people that we have on this podcast where working in
restaurants, being financing environments for quite a long
time in France and oversea as well.
And yeah. And then I discovered bread
about sourdough bread, naturallyfermented bread.
That's something that you don't like.
(02:55):
I've already been taught at school in the Crater school
about like, yeah, wild and a live world of fermentation
world, let's say in Brazil as itwas back then, 1012 years ago,
10 years ago, the sign in Brazilworking in restaurants.
And then I discovered the sourdough breast.
Kind of weird for French to say that, but that's.
(03:17):
Exactly that. Like, for me, this surprises me
a lot because you mentioned how like you discovered, yeah, the,
the bread and the whole fermentation of bread side of
things in Brazil and even after your school.
But I'm also curious, like, whatwas your first idea?
I mean, of course, as you said, you grew up in France, you live
over there. What was your approach to bread
before, say, joining culinary school or before taking that up
as a profession? Yeah, I mean, the first it's
(03:40):
everybody in my family is chef. I'm the only one working with
food industry in the food industry in my family care.
But I always really get interested in food in general.
I love to eat like a lot of chefs I guess though, and I
always love magic, like magic tricks and I still love magic.
And I kind of always sent through that like something
magic happening where you turn really simple ingredients,
(04:02):
vegetables or fruits into something amazing.
And one of the reasons I wanted to learn about cooking and
that's why I went to the school and this culinary school in
France, quite well known for like the whole teaching and all
the foundation, I will say to become like a chef.
So understand the foundation of food, like, you know, like all
(04:23):
the traditional and, and I will say classic French techniques,
let's say so because that's one,one thing I must learn.
It's about French food being friends, traditional, you're in
a Ford in this school, not all about like what's happening
oversea. Yeah.
And yeah. And I, I learned a lot about the
basic really basic things and and basic techniques and
(04:44):
understand like what is how to work with this kind of product
or this kind of meat or this kind of fish or whatsoever.
And it was already let's say theentry gate for me for for this
world. And then I kind of continued
this stuff working in Star Star machine restaurants where I used
to eat a lot of all this stuff, but not too much about like this
world of fermentation because it's not really taught in our
(05:06):
school in this school. And I think most of the schools
do not have like I will say, a class dedicated to the lively,
the lively world, not just fermentation, just working with
the life things, the life food. So I can be working with a
flour, can be working with milk or working with just vegetables
and so on. And when I discovered bread
(05:28):
there in Brazil, it's just kind of a super new things for me
because I like. So you work with bacteria.
So what what is this? What Amy the science daughter
helps like, take care of it and how it's maintained alive and
how it's real. Like, then make bread with it.
The Scientist. And it was just completely new
for me. And I guess that's like how
(05:49):
everything started to me like this out of New world that
opened to me, the fermentation world and the live world that
was just really mind blowing forme.
Yeah. But but I mean, I'm just really
curious, like, what was your first exposure to to baking as
an art? Because a lot of chefs I speak
to during my work now with the broadcast as well, many of them
say that even though it is, it is cooking at the end of the
(06:12):
day, if you do bakery or pastry,if you do savory cooking, in the
end it's cooking. But a lot of people who start
off like I myself, tired of liking to like wanting to become
a chef because of like baking and making cookies or cakes at
home. And then realizing the real
world of bakery requires a lot of measurement.
And I'm somebody who would rather like throw stuff in the
pot and make a make, make a broth or make a, make a Stew
(06:34):
rather than measuring that much.So how was that for you?
Because you said you started offas a chef.
I didn't. The transformation happened.
And what were your first? Yeah, struggles to fit into that
world. Yeah, it was hard though, like
first of all, just facing the reality of what being a chef, I
think it was really hard. Like you all know, that's what
the podcast is also about. But the change in the changement
(06:54):
with the bakery was it didn't really happen at the 1st place
when I was in Brazil. It happened when I really became
a Baker, like a full time Baker on the, on the, on the duty.
And this is what that was then back then traveling and living
and traveling in Asia, living inSingapore.
And I worked for a company that's they have a couple of
(07:14):
bakers in Singapore and they wanted to implement the
sourdough bread, like sourdough processes, natural fermentation
in their bread. Like, I don't know, probably
between 600 to 1000 bread a day.And I didn't really scale about
this because I'm not a Baker. I'm not a trained Baker.
Basically, I've had to learn through different other bakers
just by myself also. And I think that's the time I
(07:37):
realized when I was like, I think you will be fine to do
Saturday or for like 6600, sorryto 1000 bread a day.
It's just straight out and it just like I'll just throw this
on the table. And when I actually went to the
bakery and I saw all these machines and the quantity of
people working in the bakery andthe amount of bread that needs
to be produced per day and implement, and that's all
(07:59):
fermentation processes into thisbreak where I was like, all
right, so maybe I was too fast. I did it.
I did say too fast. Are you as OK to do that?
And that's something where I face the reality of it where
like you were saying, a Baker start usually really early
morning or even like late night start starting there 11:00 PM to
finish that probably in lunchtime the next day.
(08:21):
And it just not my reality. Even being a chef for a long
time, working like stylish restaurant where you have long
days and so on. It was totally new for me to
face this new reality as a Baker.
And, and things worked out like I was finally able to implement
all this there, even if it was areally hard task.
But I thought that's what I, I don't realize and decide that
(08:44):
you can make amazing bread with the good flower and so on and
good product and also the good process, but working with good
hours as well and having like a proper life.
And it's possible, though that'show I, it took me a while and I
tried to like change and shift things around and, but it was
really, really hard to face the reality of a Baker because I
wasn't prepared at all basicallyof the world.
(09:08):
Yeah, I mean, it's super interesting.
What do you say? Because a lot of people I speak
also like the first few episodesI had with Fugitive Chefs
podcast, a lot of them who shifted to bakery or like not
just baking. I think other food ends with the
whole idea of the podcast is where can a chef work where they
don't have where they can choosetheir hours, which is something
you specifically said about baking.
And I think what makes that special is because with bakery
(09:29):
or with anything that is produced before facing a
customer, you can choose your hours.
So if you know the customer is going to show up and you don't
really have to be present over there and you can program these
things. I think that's a very
interesting thing you said. So I think bakery can be one of
these professions, but also, I don't know, food photography or
consulting menus. These things are not really
customer facing. They're business facing.
So you can choose to, yeah, beefthe hours you want to be free.
(09:52):
So of course it requires more work.
I think it's a lot of risks in that as well.
Not everybody can choose to do that profession.
But I feel yeah, also with like packaged food, a lot of chefs
moving into packaged food is because the customer goes when
they want to pick up the food, but then you're preparing also
when you think it's it's right to prepare that.
So that's very interesting for me, but like I would love to
also hear from you, Paul, like your understanding of like
(10:13):
getting into bread, say after Brazil, when you saw the
exposure to that, and then todayhow you do things.
How much of A role do you think science has played?
Like I think First off, when youstart doing things, you do it
because you repeat processes of what somebody has told you or
what you've seen on a Reddit blog that OK, you know,
sourdough should be done like this, so and so, but then
understanding the science of it is what you do today.
(10:34):
So how much of a difference do you think has it made for you as
a person and also in your products, I would say?
That's a good question. I feel so like I told you
earlier, I didn't have any real background of Baker.
I mean, they're just really conventional baking in the
school, like the bread is first in an hour or so, two hours or
so, and then you bake it after just really precise, precise
(10:57):
measurement. And I also have a lot of problem
with measurements like you. So it's a lot of like, I think
being, being a chef, the train chef, that's something a lot of
applied into fermentation as well, where it's a lot of
feeling, feeling and, and, and touch and, and, and, and
ceilings in general, like the smile, the loop, the chip, the
touch of its and so on. And the taste, of course.
(11:19):
But it's a lot of, I apply a lotof this philosophy that I always
had as a chef north of as well into the world of fermentation
and even more into the world of like troll fermented bread, like
sourdough bread. And I feel this helped me a lot
to like kind of get a bit further away of like
conventional way of making bread.
And I've learned when I was in Brazil with the guys called
(11:42):
Rachael Rito, he wasn't Baker aswell.
He learned a little bit like going into different countries
with different all the bakers. He was there working with
marketing before. So when I learned with him, it
was just like keeper feeding process, I have to say, like not
random, but just like, Oh yeah, it looks like this.
I just put some more water. And then and for me it was kind
(12:03):
of weird because I was explaining something way more
controlled, way more precise. And then I've learned from this
guy in that Baker's called DiscoBaker, which is an amazing
bakery in Rio de Janeiro. And and I think the fact that I
get into bread like this kind ofshow me that the way, like the
way you I should learn maybe baking and how to make bread be
(12:26):
that way. So be like more something
feelings and trying fermenting all the time, failing a lot,
which is like part of the process, I feel, and this is the
best are when you failing, you understand why you failed.
And then after traveling other countries, I've met all the
bakers and all the practices also of making bread.
(12:46):
I've been working a year in a ina mill as a Miller in Australia.
You understand also the technology of milling flour and
this helped me a lot also to understand like how you build
the bread and when you nail the flour in different ways of
milling the flour in different types of grains, how you get to
this results. But I think it's a mix of
(13:07):
everything is like of course, meeting people and professionals
that have different approaches of how to, you know, succeed
into bread making. But also I think it's
self-taught somehow, because if you don't have this part of
experimental like experimentation part on your
end, I think it's different. It's very difficult to get the
to grow and understand better your craft.
(13:29):
So I feel it's like a blend of different settings where
reading, studying, trying, mailing and also meeting people
and opening your, the concept and opening your mind to like,
oh, so you get this kind of bread you make like this, but
there is so this kind of way of making it, which leads to the
same product. So, and then you kind of like
create patterns in your head. And then when you you go to
(13:53):
somewhere and you get a kind of flower or get a kind of a grain
that you're going to work for. And then you kind of apply this
pattern. It's kind of ridiculous in your
head and you urge it together ina little like, OK, so I want to
get this. Maybe I did this with this, this
try this kind of flower, this kind of grain last time.
(14:14):
And migration is kind of never thought.
And then you merge it and you try and you you succeed or not.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's super interesting what you
told me. And this is what the whole point
of the question was like how something which is which comes
so naturally because I think thenature also has a way of leading
you into very obvious. Like later you discover that
(14:35):
these things make scientific sense.
But also nature has a way of showing you that, you know, do
this and this makes the most sense.
But I feel, as you said, like a Rubik cube, like building
blocks, like once you know what every block is, what role
they're playing, you can definitely make a better
product. And I think in the end of it, a
lot of characteristics, I see you in you, because in the end
also I'm trying to not just interview people like you who
(14:56):
are fugitive chefs, but also kind of building like, how did
you guys make it? Or how did I would say we guys
make it outside the restaurant and still be creative, still be
relevant, still contribute to the same food ecosystem?
I think to break that down. And for the people and listeners
who are listening to this may belooking for tips.
I'm like, you know, how can I inspire myself from Powell's
part or some other guest's part?We need to break them down for
(15:17):
it. And for me, one of the key
takeaways I see from your conversation is curiosity.
Like you said, going to the middle to, to learn how to meet
in Australia or picking up booksand reading about it,
questioning people, seeing others like the like the chef
you mentioned in Brazil, Rafael Britto, seeing how he does
things and also seeing how he inspired you.
Like if he can make it, you can make it as well.
I think that's we're trying trying with the podcast with the
(15:38):
end of the day, but just to justto ask you something more about
like your beginnings into this. Do you have any memory of your
first loaf that you made or first format that you made?
What was that like? Like what?
What stuck from there for you? It was, it was, I think, yeah,
I, I think I remember, I think when everything started was
(15:58):
yeah, in Brazil when I really discovered this world of natural
fermentation regret. But I for a while in a
restaurant, it's called Lamarinein an island in France,
Alexandquin, really amazing place, an amazing chef.
And the first bread I've made. I think there.
It was there because I wanted you wanted to deal up some kind
(16:20):
of bread there with the philosophy of this restaurant,
which is like super, you know, aligned with like natural
processors and so on. And I was like, I heard about
something, I don't even know what I lived on, which we'll
call it in France. And I think I tried some random
stuff that really didn't worked out because we had this really
(16:40):
beautiful wood fire, but I didn't even know how to bake out
a food fire at that time. So I just so many variables that
came through. I was like, Oh yeah, I'm going
to try, It's going to be fine. So I found this book, French
book and think about natural segmentation like the salad or
bread. And I tried this recipe just
didn't work at all. Came out like as a lot of like
(17:02):
bakers missing out there, blood work, super sour, nothing worked
out and so on. And I was I was just like, OK,
maybe then baking is less for me.
Maybe maybe this is too complicated.
There's too many things coming up and too many variables that I
actually at that time I didn't know about.
And I still learned about it. But I think it was a really
(17:24):
terrible lot. And yeah, and I feel this is, I
don't know, it's probably something that is related to
craft work. People working with craft in
general, I think you never really happy, like 100,000%
happy, I can say. So with the final product in
that sense, where I feel the best part when you work with
(17:48):
craft and even more limitation of Live 3rd is when you know
that there is a room for improvement and there is always
a room for improvement in anything that you're doing.
Anything that just about fermentation, but anything in
life in general. But I think I'm always into that
like, all right, so yeah, now I get a really cool, really nice
book and I'm happy with it. But next time I can do something
(18:11):
a little bit different and I work on more maybe, I don't
know, the hydration, I mean justrandom variables, but hydration
of the humidity that I was working on that day, the
temperature of the lab, the lab,the lab where I was working,
the, the bakery, the Florence. So there's so many variables
they can play with. So I feel that first look was
(18:35):
really a nightmare. And I had some more around the
the journey and like things thatI wasn't really happy with this.
But yeah, I think it's we were talking about we're talking
about patterns and block. I think you said block.
The word broader is really, yeah, I think you're really
metaphoric and really clean whatit said.
(18:55):
I feel that you always have thisthis relationship where you feel
that you get better in what you're doing and you feel like
you reach a certain amount like of knowledge and so on.
And you feel like, oh, now I'm, I'm, I'm like pretty stuff.
I know pretty well my my subject.
And then when all of the blogs actually not in the right place
(19:15):
and you like fail new product, cheese, bread whatsoever and
he's like, and it's a big failure and you're like, all
right, so I don't know about what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I mean it's. It's a learning curve and I
mean, words like the ones you'resharing of, like sharing your
failures also is very important because at the end of the day, I
mean, a format like podcast, of course, or like longer videos
have the space to talk this because if not on Instagram,
(19:38):
we're all just sharing our are best low for the the more that's
or the most success moment. So I mean, this is the reason
why I want to hear. I want to hear all the all the
all the content in your journey to get there, you know, but like
moving on from there. Powell, when did you like like
from working for somebody, from learning the craft from
somebody? When did you make the
(19:58):
transformation into doing your own projects?
What was your first like workingfor yourself or working as a as
a freelancer or a business? When did that shift happening of
not working in a restaurant? It was pretty recent actually.
It was November last year. So it's got to be a year.
Well, it's in a year and a half.Nice.
It's a year and a half that's things shift a little bit for
(20:20):
me. I was traveling for a long time,
so I was out of friend for a couple of years, like more than
10 years. I was like traveling overseas
and working always for work and always for learning and
discovering new things. I decided to go back to France
last year in November, basicallylike the end of October and
November, I can come back to my country.
(20:41):
And when I came back to my country, I didn't see nice.
It's been a while, like the lastperson I worked or was in
Singapore. So I was like about five years
ago, four years ago. So I really like kind of shifted
slowly towards working for someone, but as not as a chef,
but as a cheesemaker, as a Baker.
(21:02):
I was living in Poland for a while, working cheesemaker and a
Baker in a farm and it's all 40 habitants sitting in Poland.
And that's when a lot of things started from me where I start to
give a lot of classes in that farm and workshops or the people
that were coming to the farm to stay there and eat at the
(21:26):
restaurant and so on. And I kind of really started
enjoying the pedagogic and unless you call this in English,
like teaching and giving to someone the, the knowledge.
And when I came back in France, I was like, I think I don't want
to work for someone I know to work for someone from now.
And it was really, really hard. And for me because I didn't want
(21:47):
what will be the shape of it? Like I was thinking maybe I
should have put a slice. I should have been like a
structure where I can put the place, something that I can
because I always wanted to have like this impact on the
community somehow with knowledgeand maybe giving them some also
products. So I didn't know how the thing
we should look like. It was really messy in my head
(22:09):
because so many things at the same time that I wanted to do
until the moment where a couple of friends that live in Europe
have restaurants reach me out. They're oh, Paul should come
here one day and just like help us to make some bread or help us
to make some cheese, help us to like settle some kind of
Huntsman and and miso and whatever.
(22:32):
And I was like, yeah, why not? But I decided to go into last
places as a friend without beinglike a professional at that time
when I came back in France and Istarted seeing that there's a
little opportunity like to help restaurants or some kind of
places that like bakeries or other places that sells food
(22:53):
and, and produce food and how toshow them like some systems and
way to implement fermentation with the product that they have
that surround the place. So at the beginning I was
starting with restaurants that have maybe garden or farm and
then, you know, go there and then they can use their product
and have this whole cycle around.
(23:16):
It's like using from a tuition also as like recycling things in
general. And and from there I met other
people in Europe and in France that I could help with all the
food projects related and becomemore autonomous in their place.
(23:37):
It doesn't make sense. And then and then the school and
now I'm for like most more than like I think 10 months now I'm
teaching a school in Paris between our school a
fermentation herclips like different approach of
fermentation. So it's mainly bread, a little
(24:00):
bit of cheese and a little bit of also like beverages and
working with Koji like all the done one guy world, let's say.
Yeah. And that's how like this
started. And I, I don't know, for people
listeners, I will say, well, youhave a feeling that you can do
it. Just do it because it took me a
(24:22):
long time to like you're saying like when this thing shifts for
me, took me a really long time. It was really hard for me make
the decision and feeling that I'm comfortable enough to work
for myself. And this is super hard because
I've been yeah, yeah. Working.
Yeah, now we've all faced. This, I mean, once, once you put
(24:42):
yourself out there and there's no restaurant behind you,
there's I mean, you have to sellyourself at the end of the day
or like talk into these rooms ofsay the principal of this
college and convince them that you can, you can give the
service or talk to your even your friends.
I think it's, it's also more personal, but it's, I think it's
a good tactic that you use or like it.
It happened naturally for you, which I would also suggest
people, if you have people in your ecosystem who trust you or
(25:03):
who, who, who recommend you to do something for them.
It's a good like a wake up call for you that if somebody wants
this aspect of me, I shouldn't be shy for charging for it or
for for going towards and makingthis into a package.
I think that's, that's very smart what you did.
But also, Paul, I'm very interested because I feel
fermentation is again, something.
So it's so sensory, it's so intuitive, it's it's so natural.
(25:26):
How do you like, what is your approach to converting that into
teaching? Like for example, right now at
the school you said in Paris or also like the stuff you were
doing in community in Poland. What are the what are the
methods you use to make it more teachable for somebody who maybe
does not have as much knowledge as you you know?
I think is the it's all about vocabulary and the language that
(25:47):
like which words you're going touse.
Basically like trying to speak amore easy language about
commentation. If you want to teach about
commentation, like how to find the right words and the right,
we'll say no French and forget the word in English.
Like, OK, It's like condense thevocabulary.
(26:11):
Yeah, simplify, simplify, simplify.
Yeah, yeah, simplify. Not because you don't want to
give all the information. I think it's not about like
keeping secrets or whatever, because it's not about this.
The fermentation is everyone needs to appropriate limitation
to themselves is they are very noise to the product they have
available and so on also to their life.
(26:32):
You know, it's like just what you have time to do and you
don't have time to do. And you know, you've come to
teach people like you're going to spend 8 hours in the kitchen
to make bread for yourself. No, it's not possible because
people have other things to me. So how to find like a ton of
things and how to find house andand and and ideas and recipes
(26:54):
and so on for making it available for the people that
that have like one hour available in per week.
Make this, for example, or for students that maybe because I
have a lot of students here in the school that I'm not
interested in to fermentation, but it's part of the program.
The how to try it a little bit more fun in a way and more
(27:15):
accessible to approachable per person that actually I'm not
interested in to like take fermentation or acidic
fermentation, if you get what I mean.
Yeah. So I feel it's all about like
vocabulary, like how you find how you understand people that
comes to you if they're professional, of course you use
different vocabulary and you're going to try to.
(27:35):
I was in Nepal a couple of months ago or some kind of
social works there with a schoolthat wants to they basically
receive our ocean orphan people.Yeah, come from orphanage that
and they give them certificationinto the food industry.
(27:56):
They they, they learn for one year, six months, maybe sometime
2 years a job. They learn like how to become a
chef, how to become a someday, how to become a barrister.
And then they have a certification and they can one
deal with good life. They have they can find work.
So it's a really important social work that's been done in
(28:16):
capital. Yeah.
And I went there for a couple ofweeks and when I was talking
about vocabulary, I came there without really knowing I I
wanted to do something, teach them about bread, teach them
about cheese. Like it would like how to set up
my mind as I will come for a restaurant in a couple of days.
I mean, just even hours. I realized that they were
(28:38):
looking for that. They were looking for like how
we can from the product that we have available in Nepal, how we
can make your fermentation skilland make something that makes
sense for the fuel and make sense for the people that work
and that that studying in this goal.
And then we'll buy the product from this goal because the goal
was also selling all the things that we're producing and and
(29:00):
then yeah, one more time it. So you'd have to choose the
vocabulary in the words that you're going to give to the, the
person that you sent to you and also the product that I have
available around you and the ecosystem that I've that I've
around them to apply the skills on it and to make sense because
(29:20):
that's the most important. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I love what
you said about like, I think it's very important, as you
said, like the vocabulary, but also contextualizing of of I
think as you said, I think I loved what you said about the
fermentation that everybody has to make it their own.
And it's not just about like theway it's going right now, you
know, it's become a buzzword andeverybody just everybody wants
to mention the word Koji or misoor kombucha or caffeine or
(29:42):
whatever you call it. In the end, I think it's very
important that yet, you know, some skill, which I mean, bread
and cheese works perfectly in your context living in France,
but maybe that's not what something wants to make in, in,
in Kathmandu. You know, maybe they want to
focus on upcycling. As you said.
I think fermentation has a lot to do with using, using
resources, which are called foodwaste, where they can be
converted into, into, into nutrition for people who are
(30:05):
short on resources. I think.
So I, I love that. And I also wanted to take this
moment towards a question that Ihad for you about like the
misconception of fermentation. Like you've beautifully
explained how fermentation can be contextualized for every
community and they can use it their best way.
But one of the few misconceptions or
misunderstanding that you see around fermentation that kind of
(30:25):
you think is, isn't the correct way to approach fermentation.
I don't know. Like for me it is how a lot of
us are consuming fermented products which are already
pasteurized and sterilized and sold in supermarkets.
For me for example that is 1 take away.
Or like you, you drink a lot of functional drinks with microbes
and there is no live microbes init.
(30:47):
For you, what is like the fume and misunderstandings about
fermentation? The thing first thing, and I
think you will agree with that. I'm I'm a really big fan of
history. I feel a story like the history
of our civilization. It's something that I fascinate
and I feel that just fermentation is here for more
than 10,000 years prison in our civilization and even probably
(31:11):
longer than that. It made us like who we are
nowadays is basically subtract alittle bit.
It's the fire in the sanitation that made the person that we are
nowadays, the the, the, the whole Satians that we are.
I feel the fermentation. First of all, it's just always
been here and it will be all always here.
(31:32):
I hope so. And that's that's the most
beautiful thing. That's why I think what I was
saying about appropriate yourself.
The fermentation is because every single culture around the
world are connected with fermentation at some point.
And and this is like that's that's why I feel that
fermentation sometime big, like you said, the buzz around
(31:55):
cementation and and the everyone.
Oh yeah, because you know, I've put this fermentation
everywhere. I'm I'm from the shame
background. So you and I feel that when you
you you talk about steroid. I think fermentation IS1 knife
in your knife case, let's say you know, is one ingredients,
(32:15):
one of the thousand you're in that you have.
So I think people are taking it a bit too seriously from
addiction. That's the first thing I will
say more time. The fact that is that old and
that part of us we're not supposed to take that seriously.
It's needs to stay fun and he needs to stay in the in the in
(32:36):
the in the in the context of something that is always been
here. We'll always be here.
We always have new things comingup.
I mean, new vision of it and, and, and people doing it in
different ways. So it's not it will never be
settled as the first thing I think about segmentation and
what I will come and say, yeah, because I have the best recipe
(32:57):
for kombucha whatsoever. Whatever it is, I feel this
first something to take away. Like you said, The thing is it,
you know, it's forever. Everyone has his own
circumstances and surrounding and context about making
fermentation. That's the first thing is nobody
owns it. Everyone owns it.
(33:19):
It's part of our culture. That's what attract me the most
into fermentation. Now.
I feel sometimes people take it too seriously.
And I feel also one of the reasons why I left the
establishment world and this, this finally restaurant world is
because I found out that, you know, the craft world and live
world like fermentation world ofbranch and salt, the community
(33:39):
that surrounds it. It's also amazing.
So I I met a lot of amazing people all around summitation
and that and being more with my sort of community compared to
filing restaurant there I found really different.
But anyway, come back to your question.
I feel that now we are in a in asociety that everybody,
(34:00):
everything has to be a lot of ithas to be marketed and make
profit out of it. So when I see the same as you
mentioned earlier, beverages that pasteurize and don't have
any more live thing in it, it's it's a beverage, it's probably
delicious, but it's the the, thethe nutritious facts and what it
brings your body into your mind.It's not the same.
(34:22):
It's not the same index. And I think for people who are
thinking would come back to vocabulary, but that's for
people to understand that it's not just even making kombucha
themselves. It's going to be just no, what
is it and why it's a life's product will be better for them.
(34:42):
So I think it's sometimes you are still out because now you're
to do everything yourself at home.
You have to make your own. If you have time do so and it's
good. It's even a meditation to make
it. But I feel at least if you know
what is mature, you know what I mean.
So misconception about the meditation is a formation giving
as much as possible informations, but also like
(35:05):
people are struggling. A lot of farmers and bakers and
cheese makers all around the world are struggling to maintain
use ancestral ways of making things.
And the society is not helping because you have either a lot of
things on the market that's coming up that is super cheap
and sells this as like a stamented product for you or
(35:25):
making it complicated. Like I'm thinking that about
like the cheese making in Francethat the rules are to making
friends are so difficult to likeuse natural techniques and be
able to market your products. It's a so hardcore like it's a
lot of rules to respect and that's shift the way from how
(35:47):
it's supposed to be done using natural starters, natural
materials and so on. So I feel like this is the the
big dilemma. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, super interesting. All that you've said, I
completely relate with it. And I feel one of the key points
you said is like this education,the information that you can
find, especially today. I feel today nobody has an
excuse of not having information.
(36:09):
Of course, we have sometimes a lot of misleading information as
well. So it's important to know the
sources and that's why we have people like you who can like
verify these sources and, and say which of this information is
correct. But it's important to educate
yourself on like what you're looking for because maybe you're
looking for a certain thing, butyou don't need to go for
kombucha if it's not in your, inyour context, if your context
may be caffeine milks makes morescans, skier makes more sense,
(36:31):
yogurt makes more sense. I mean, every culture has some
format which gives you the same properties, you know, But also I
would like to know power, like the idea of this podcast, you
know, like how, how people like you end up being fugitive chefs
and what does it bring to them. So I would like to know from you
like both sides of the coin, like what are the freedoms that
you've gained from this transition, that one which is
like one year, one year old, this transition of yours?
(36:52):
And what challenges do you have?Like one thing use mentioned
yourself, you know, the community you've found without
fermentation is much more wholesome than finding
restaurants where it's a lot of struggle pressures, long hours.
So what a few freedoms and few challenges that you could
summarize this transition has bought you.
It's thank you couple if I need to list them and it's a really
good question that I actually never get asked this person
(37:15):
before, but it's a very good question.
That's why you're really good. Forget.
I feel I think I have to let them the first one.
It's probably the routine. When you're in restaurant and
you know that you have a routinethat it's kind of like already
wrote or the whole day already already already there.
You know exactly what you're going to do.
(37:36):
Of course things change, but youhave like some kind of like
organization, like something really clear in your mind that
you get used to for years, like working restaurants, even in
bakeries, even in places, cheesebakery, whatever, having like a
pattern like OK, morning, I do this, then I do this, then I do
(37:56):
this, then I do this. Like everything's already
written on the paper in your head, in your paper, and why
not? But I think the first thing that
was the most complicated for me was this change of the routine
where the work that I'm doing right now, it's a lot of small,
either medium or bigger projects.
(38:16):
But it's a lot of like things that is has come split in a lot
of places, physical place, not in the same place, but also in
my in my hand. This is like sometimes I'm going
to work on a project that is I went last year, beginning of
this year. Sorry for a project in Comfort
in Mannheim in Germany, OK, a pizza place that they wanted to
(38:39):
settle, really good pizza place that they make a natural
fermentation with the pizza, butthey wanted to have homemade
cheeses there using natural techniques, using milk.
That's from a really small farm nearby.
That's a project. And then on the side of that, I
had a project for a restaurant that it was more based on like
beverages. I wanted to develop some
(39:00):
beverages. And so I feel that just on a
daily basis organization and in your head, it's out of or or for
for the first probably six months, it was really difficult
for me to understand what my schedule look like.
(39:22):
That's probably the first thing that I haven't thought about
that your routine in your organization that's less likely
changed from working in a restaurant or from working in a
bakery. This was really hard because
couldn't pun things properly. I couldn't like hack chip on
things at the right time. It was really cool for me to
organize. OK, so I've this in two weeks,
(39:43):
this in one week, but in one week I only to show them a
couple of cheese already made. So I have to do it three months
this hour and then it's like allthis kind of super difficult
organization. Now I have get it, but if it's
still complicated, that's the thing.
That's the first thing I will say so for.
The changes and the columns. Another one is also you have to
(40:09):
pay bills and this is like the always the thing and we have to
pay bills and trying to find missions that makes sense me
values and philosophy talking, but also being able to pay
bills. So it was really hard at the
(40:29):
beginning because I wanted to trying to do as much as project
that makes sense to my perspective of things like
helping community, going on project that will help people,
help the people that work in therestaurants in terms of even
organization like putting bread in the restaurant is not a
(40:51):
simple thing to do. And, and trying to make good
bread, it's not a simple thing to do, but how to make then this
job easy for them with the, the machines that they have
available without asking them tobuy a dough mixer for like 10K
doesn't make sense. Those little things that I
wanted to do as missions and at the same time paying bills,
somebody be able to like earningenough money to leave horribly.
(41:15):
I you know, I like a lot of stuff in the chefs and good,
good philosophy chefs out there,but just doing what they like to
do. We're not looking after too much
of like that be becoming a millionaire whatsoever is just
doing what we like to do and help the community out there.
And this was a big struggle at the beginning because, you know,
(41:39):
sometimes the restaurant doesn'thave a lot of budgets for this
kind of thing. So, you know, I had to like
sometimes do for free or help them like, OK, so I'm going to
come there and going to go home this for five days.
But actually I'm going to cover you one day work.
And you were mentioning this at the beginning, like saying that,
(42:00):
yeah, it's difficult to put a price on much of the day.
And you know, it's one again, one more time.
It's a learning process of you're learning how you can put
value on your work. And this is really hard and
still hard to me of like knowingwhat I can provide as a as as
teaching and giving knowledge ofsomething and at the same time
(42:22):
being being able to get this in return something in return.
So this was really hard too. It's like the fact that you're
on yourself now is just nobody is backing you up.
You have to find a way of makingthings sustainable in the big,
the big S your value, paying your bills and so on.
(42:43):
And this is like struggling, it's hard, but it's work.
But it's hard. Yeah, that's OK to be always on.
It's like every single day of meOK, I have to did did this and
and put this in now whole thing in the next cell sheet and then
you're like, OK, so now this makes sense.
And yeah, it's hard. Yeah, I know it's.
It's interesting what you said part and it's it's also very
(43:05):
important for me in the podcast also to cover all these sites
because of course, in the beginning you spoke a lot about
the creative freedom that you get working for yourself,
getting to deep dive into these things, having your own
schedule. Like you, you covered a lot of
positives in the beginning of the podcast, but I think it's
equally important to listen to this part as well.
Like it's because everybody listening would be like, Oh,
it's so cool if the grass is very green on the other side.
But of course, you need to learnthese these skills because
(43:28):
there's many you just can't. I mean, you can maybe hire
somebody to do your social mediaor to do some Billings or your
accounts and stuff. But at the end of the day, you
have to show up and you have to organize your schedule.
You have to organize the finances, you have to make your
own budgets. See what how you can commit to
these overlapping projects, which is each other.
So that's, yeah, super interesting to hear from you
pal, from your first hand experience.
(43:49):
And before we close the podcast,I wanted to to ask, what are you
excited about in the future? Like if you want to share
something that you're excited about or looking forward to to
in the in the months to go. What I'm looking forward to this
for now I'm continuing what I'm doing and it's doing great and
it was it. This is all professional
perspective of it where I kind of find the balance now of what
(44:12):
we are talking about. That took me a little bit of
time back to kind of find the balance.
But what I try, I will try to do.
My partner, my girlfriend's partner, he's working with
social works. She's not in the food industry
at all. She's making with social works
and I've been doing a couple of social works since I've been
(44:32):
working for myself, 18 of the one in Nepal.
And I feel that for the future, what I'm saying, what I'm doing
right now will take. So if you take the shape of a
structure, physical structure orif he keeps going on something
more nomad that is also AIDS andcolumns, I will say I would love
to incorporate way more of the social works into what I'm doing
(44:57):
in the way that I feel that is really important.
I still forget that's for these people.
And you know, it's interconnected all the time
doing the work that I'm doing with like chef and restaurant
and skiing and other projects like that that's give me
(45:17):
budgets, give me some money to put it aside and then use a bit
of this money to then do social projects.
That's kind of a check sure thatI like and it's kind of a
structure that I feel that I cangive back at some point.
I can give back to people that need it.
And I I'm excited through that because I feel I will continue
(45:40):
trying this to find this balancewhere I can do both.
I can work as professionals out of it, like professionals with
experience and and help them to settle some project segmentation
projects making their cheat because they have a really good
David farm nearby they want to work with and make a business
out of it. And on the side of that, taking
(46:03):
some time, all my free time to go and make social works
somewhere that is linked to whatI'm doing mutation brain making
chin making related. And what I was talking about
structure, because at some pointthat I feel that this no man
work is tiring. And you know, when you want to
measure with some family, familyproject and personal project,
(46:28):
maybe having a structure where Ican merge these two together,
being able to produce something and incorporate some social
initiating in that project. So that's something I'm really
excited about because I feel that same thing that I will
fulfill myself as a craft maker because I will be able to
produce things and work with my hands because that's what I like
(46:49):
the most. Put hands in the bread, put
hands in the cheese, put hands in all this, but also being able
to give back to the community here, giving knowledge, sharing
knowledge, you know, having a platform where people can
exchange and learn. So I think this is what I'm
exciting the most about it. And I still have a couple of
travels coming up. I'm going to Philippines for
(47:12):
some work out there and for the same reasons teaching people
about bread, cheese and some fermentation aspect other all
the fermentation processes and also helping them to settle this
with their local farms around and creating more solid network
in their environments in their contact.
Yeah, I'm really excited about about this.
(47:34):
Yeah, super cool projects, Paul.I mean, very inspirational what
you said about the social projects and how you are trying
to also form your business in a way that it gives gives it is
sustainable in a way that you can sustain it financially.
But also it creates these. Yeah.
Like a like a like a an effort to do to to stake your craft for
those who can afford it, like restaurants who are giving you
consulting projects, but also like the projects that you said
(47:54):
about Nepal and the ones you mentioned right now.
Super interesting. And and lastly, Powell, anything
you would like to leave for the listeners?
Anything you would like to say to somebody who's maybe thinking
of doing that, kind of take a leap like yours?
You know, people listening to this episode maybe are inspired
and they say, you know what, this sounds cool.
I have possibly the skills that I could also make it like Paul
has done. What would you say to them?
I will say it will be hard. It will have been say in there,
(48:20):
it will be difficult, but do it if you feel that this makes
sense to you and you want to do it because it's aligned with
your values, it's aligned with watch who you are and it aligns
with your perspective for the future.
Do it like you get everything inplace, all the motivation and
the effort you can even more that you can sometime it will be
(48:44):
super hard, but I think it's just like give everything you
have into something you believe in and you will, let's say, and
you will, you will, you will achieve what you wanted to go.
That's what I will say to Paul ayear, a year ago that I think
and to people that listening to this podcast, I feel that
sometimes we can be, we can havethis like visions look capable
(49:09):
or you cannot do it because it'stoo difficult.
It's too hard. Maybe I'm not this imposter
syndrome, you know, like feelingan imposter in what you're
doing. Like I never had any grad
school. I've never been to grad school.
I never went to a chain school. That's why I didn't teach it how
to, you know, like learning, youknow, learning exactly your long
way of learning things. So I feel it's just like if you
(49:33):
believe in yourself and if you're, if you're so confident
with what you will work with andyour guts is telling you, you
should go that way, Go that way and put every single piece drops
of energy out of it until the end.
As another advice, they're supersharp and what's happening
(49:53):
around you, where something around you because Facebook
comes to you, come to you and sometimes you need to be sharp
on that moment you can that's aswell another.
Definitely power. I mean, thank you so much for
this. Also, like it makes much more
sense because when somebody likeyou says it like who is just
like one year ago done this and that's exactly the advice you
would give yourself one year ago.
(50:14):
I think that's the whole value of it and the whole point of the
podcast. And yeah, I would say everybody
who's listening out there, we'vealso started a new fugitive chef
circle. So if you're listening on
Spotify or YouTube or Instagram,whatever, you'll see a link in
bio where we are connecting people like Powell and others
who have been on the podcast andthose who are listening.
Because I feel that in the beginning the podcast was just
like interviewing people. But now we are trying more
(50:34):
formats where possibly in the future I get a message from
somebody who wants to do the path like Powell and I could
help connect somebody like Powell beyond the episode.
If you need something which could like help you open some
doors, we would love to do that for you.
And, and to you, Paul, I mean, thank you so much for reminding
us that fermentation is not justa buzzword.
It's not something just new and trendy.
It's very historic, as you said through your conversations, but
(50:57):
it's also about patience, curiosity, transformation, the
communities with what you said about your projects in Nepal or
how you learn in Brazil or what you're doing with the social
work right now, the the farm youwork in Poland.
There's so much of community within this, within this
fermentation world. So yeah, thank you once again.
I, I think it's, it's been a beautiful, beautiful podcast.
We link your work and your projects in the in the links
(51:18):
down below. And yeah, thank you so much for
joining, Paul. Thanks.
Thanks so much for for you too recently.
Thank you. Thank you listeners for
listening out and this has been Fugitive Chefs and see you on
the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.