From Amass to Endless: Rethinking Chocolate and the Chef’s Role

In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, Furqan sits down with Max (Maximillian) Bogenmann—former Amass chef and co-founder of Endless Food Co., the team behind THIC, a chocolate made from large-scale brewery side streams. Max traces the leap from New York kitchens to Copenhagen’s Amass, where zero-waste creativity and fermentation shaped his view of food systems. We get into why cacao’s supply chain is cracking (climate volatility, deforestation, price shocks), how Endless aims to future-proof chocolate without compromising flavor, and what it takes to scale chef thinking from R&D pots to 1,000-kilo tanks. Max shares honest lessons on sales, rejection, Excel muscles (!), and building a network—plus how startup chaos compares to the adrenaline of service. If you’ve ever wondered what a chef can become beyond the pass, this one’s a map and a nudge.

🎧 Fugitive Chefs is your window into alternative culinary careers and bold food innovation. New episodes every Tuesday. Follow, rate us & subscribe for more stories from the culinary underground.

🎙️ Hosted by Furqan from the Fugitive Chefs Podcast

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🔗 Connect with Max

Instagram : @maximillian.bogenmann

Website : https://endlesscph.com/

Chapters

00:00 Rethinking the Chef's Role Beyond the Kitchen

12:25 Journey into Culinary Arts

15:22 Experiences in New York's Restaurant Scene

19:39 Innovations at Amass

25:54 Transitioning from Restaurant to Business

34:02 Challenges of a Chef in a Startup

40:31 Skills for Culinary Entrepreneurs

45:18 Personal Reflections on Career Changes

50:16 The Identity of a Chef Today

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
So hello and welcome everyone. Welcome back to Fugitive Chefs
Podcast. And this as you know, this is a
podcast about chefs and people in food who have walked away
from traditional kitchens to create something more free, more
sustainable, more meaningful. And just these 3 words that I
say very relatable person on this podcast right now is Max
Maximilian Boogenman. If I hope I spell, I pronounce

(00:21):
your, your last name correctly. Welcome to the podcast.
Yeah, I mean, you know, my my parents are the only ones who
call me Maximilian, but I think it did pretty well.
Yeah, so we're going to stick toMax for the rest of the party
guys and Max's story. I mean, I'm going to try to sum
it up and then Max, you should tell us more about what is it
that you do currently. So from what I know about Max,
he's the one of the Co founders of Endless Food Co in

(00:42):
Copenhagen. It's one of these food companies
coming out of a mass, if I'm notwrong, all three of you, you and
all the other two partners are coming from a mass and they use
especially have trained and worked in, in the restaurant
itself. Now Amas, the little I know
about it, used to be a very sustainable restaurant.
It had to shut down a few years ago also because of the similar
concept and ideology behind the restaurant, right?

(01:04):
I remember when I was first there, we had like a lecture
through Matt Academy and we had a chat with Kim and, and Matt
and the, and also I've met interns coming out of Amas,
which is very interesting. But they used to tell me more
stories of like how Matt or everybody in the team literally
knows what's inside the fridge and they would just say like,
keep this in the fridge for somepoint.
And these interns were like, I really doubt this guy will
remember. He's asking me to keep this in

(01:25):
the fridge. And then somebody takes that out
and makes something out of it. Right.
That was the kind of restaurantsalso like one of the stories
I've heard of how all the washing the potatoes and washing
the vegetables and using that for then floor cleaning and
kitchen cleaning. So for some, for me, like
somebody who's not even stepped into a mass kitchen side of
things, it's very interesting how this restaurant made a lot
of movement as far as sustainable comes also based on

(01:46):
a very cool area in Copenhagen with a, with a small vegetable
garden opposite it. And I'm, I'm giving this context
for people who do not know like what a mass is.
And it's very interesting to know that because I think a lot
of what we are going to hear from Max about a mass and beyond
the journey, how all of it is sofar from everyday restaurant
Business Today, Max is here because they have started a

(02:06):
company. It's called, I don't know if
thick is what you properly call it.
It's called this isn't chocolate, right?
Correct me if that's not the correct name.
Yeah. Well, I mean actually, so we go
by endless food company and and our main sort of focus is called
thick. Right, And this is again, this
is a chocolate replacement, but it's it's made with like the
brewery waste. If I'm if I'm not wrong it's

(02:27):
like sub streams of brewery. Exactly.
I think our main focus is just using large scale side streams
from the food industry to createa sort of commercially viable
sustainable version of chocolatewhere we don't have to rely on
sort of fragile supply chain that cacao sort of exists in at

(02:47):
the moment. So yeah, it's like, it's not
just like it's not just making use of that brewery waste, but
it's also replacing something which already has, I wouldn't
say damage, but it already people know they have to look
for alternatives for it because there's, I mean, all of you will
have to spoken to in chocolate. There's like so many problems.
First of all, where it comes from, how much slavery is still
a part of chocolate business everyday, how unorganized the

(03:08):
sector itself and how it's also something which people don't
think twice before consuming. But it's something which takes a
very long process before it reaches that bar.
And where does, where does endless food go stand in this
whole mix of mix of problems, issues that have, what is the
kind of solution you're bringingover there?
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the

(03:29):
main thing is that, you know, having done, we started with a
lot of industry research. I think before we we did
anything sort of real or tangible, we tried to learn as
much as we could about the existing chocolate industry.
And it was pretty clear from theonset that there are pain points
all throughout the sort of the latter, if you want to say.
And I think everything sort of points back to rising global

(03:52):
temperatures or, or sort of climate change, if you want to
say it like that, and everythingfrom sort of growing areas that
are stricken by drought. You know, 70% of the world's
cacao comes from West Africa. And and that area has been hit
very hard by by drought, which means that we are not producing
at the same levels that we're sort of used to and that the
industry is kind of depending onthat also forces farmers to sort

(04:15):
of spread outward. And that means that we're
cutting down sort of very biodiverse areas of rainforest
to to create more arable land for for cacao.
All of these things of course have a price effect in the
market. And that means that existing
confectionery, baking and then just food manufacturers in

(04:35):
general are really battling withthe volatility of the chocolate
market. And so you know, there is kind
of a sliding scale from sustainability to price factors
that are sort of driving the movement in in this market.
And Endless exists as as hopefully a solution partner
also with existing chocolate companies to provide something

(04:57):
with lower CO2 footprint, a longer sort of supply chain and
more price stability. And then also at its core, a
very tasty product, right? Sort of as either a replacement
for chocolate or something that can be side by side or used in
hybrid from formulations. Yeah.
And then I think, you know that what we always say is what we're
trying to future proof the chocolate industry for for the

(05:20):
next generation. Because yeah, maybe a world
without chocolate is a sad one. No, definitely the one that I
don't, I don't see myself in allthat he said about Max.
I mean, the, the, the solution you speak about looks, I think
people listening to this are very clear now and how many
challenges it has. And still, it's very interesting
for me what you mentioned about it being delicious and having

(05:41):
its applications and how you're looking at the industry side of
things as well, which I feel because of my work right now, I
meet a lot of people doing similar with chocolate, coffee,
all these like vulnerable, I would say food chains, how
people are looking for solutionsfor that.
The the pitch that kind of you have made at this moment.
Many of the pictures I've heard don't include that part of it.
They're all about focusing on a lower price point or something

(06:03):
more stable, not fluctuating much.
But there's not much talk about how much does it act like
chocolate? How much does it taste like or
similar to chocolate? But also what's interesting for
me is because this podcast is going to be about how chefs like
you leave the brigade and do something beyond it.
Because somebody listening to this, just the 2 minutes you
spoke before, before me startingto speak are already so

(06:24):
different from what a chef's everyday, everyday knowledge or
everyday activity is like. And then we want to rethink with
it, what else can a chef be beyond just being in restaurants
and also seeing how a restaurantcan make a movement, but how
that movement can be much more impactful when it goes beyond
its limits of a city or a kitchen and becomes a food
company. So before we dive into all of

(06:44):
that, Max, I would just like to hear from you.
Like as I speak about you right now, did you think you would be
somebody doing this? Like, was the first idea you had
of being chef? Was it that you'll be making
starting statistics and chocolate and making a chocolate
replacement? Or where did it come from?
No, I think, you know, it was a very simple interest in eating

(07:06):
that's maybe a bit reductive, but when I was young, I think
like I just really liked food, right.
And then coming from a Korean Swiss background where every
sort of family gathering was, was focused around food, whether
it was a celebration or, or some, something else, I think

(07:26):
food was always present in, in different ways.
You know, I, I think it has always been sort of a big part
of my life. I, I think I didn't imagine I, I
would be in this position in food, mostly because I didn't
know really even until sort of in the recent years, what
actually was possible within food outside of actually working
in restaurants. I think if I really look back,

(07:47):
you know, I, I can home home Eckclass in like 7th grade and I
have like an incredibly distinctmemory of we had to make chili,
like chili con carne one day forour project.
And our teacher was like, OK, sotake a bite and then the next
bite, take a bite and sprinkle some salt on top of that bite

(08:08):
before you before you eat it. And I was like, it was the first
time that I had seen such or felt and tasted such a big
difference in sort of how food can present itself.
Not that that has like sort of driven my whole whole interest
in food. I just remember it as sort of
such a clear like, holy shit, you can do quite a bit with like
small sort of adjustments. And I think, you know, thinking

(08:30):
about that, I think I move forward and I was like, cool.
I really would like to maybe deal with food at some point in
my career. And so I did the sort of typical
process that you do where you goto culinary school and then
you're like, okay, I need to work in a restaurant and sort of
the accolades of that restaurantwill drive me.

(08:50):
You know, we'll forge the path. So I'll, I'll sort of find the
restaurants that have the stars and we'll go from there.
And then probably, hopefully oneday I'd become a sous chef and
maybe one day I'd become a chef.And then maybe one day I'll be
sort of I'll have my own restaurant.
And that will kind of be the story, right?

(09:12):
And I think that that's kind of like a pretty typical path of,
of how a lot of people envision working with food.
And I think it was only up untila couple years ago that I
realized like, like, shit, thereare so many different ways that
you could actually utilize your experience and creativity and
maybe expertise with food and flavour in, in multiple
different industries. And I think that really opened

(09:34):
up sort of the possibilities forus and, and also for myself.
And I think that's, that's also why I felt comfortable going
into a such a different space that is still very much
connected to food, but kind of integrates multiple different
aspects of, of either business or sales.
For example, if if I told myselfI would be partly A salesman,

(09:55):
I'm, I'm pretty sure I would have been very disappointed. 12
year old me would be very disappointed.
But but I think it's the fun of sort of integrating all of these
other things surrounding food. Yeah, no, I mean in in your own
words, the possibilities are endless as as their company.
And it's, it's funny for me likeso much to say on all that
you've shared. Like one of them I completely

(10:16):
relate with because because I I like I felt in your words how
you humbled down the experience of like putting the salt in
that. But I can totally connect with
it because for me, for example, everybody asked me like, what,
what? Like the few questions that
people know how to talk to a chef is what is your like?
What is what cuisine are you best at?
What's your speciality, which nochef has an answer to?
What do you bet best cook or like, why did you get into the

(10:38):
kitchen? And these are the questions
which they ask every chef, but nobody has the clear answer for
it. But for me also like when I
think about like, why did you get into the kitchen?
I had this period of life when Iwas like very young and I had
like yellow fever. So I was at home for three
months and the smallest of things that actually woke me up
and felt like, like today we think about it that yes, food is
the only thing that you actuallyput in your mouth and you and,
and it's the only thing you experience through flavour,

(10:59):
right? Because the other thing you put
is like pharmaceutical drugs, but you never taste them as
such. But, and then the fact that you
could control that, like I used to cut, I remember cutting okra
for my mother to help her cook it.
And then seeing that small pieceof oddly cut okra in the plate
that itself for me was like, Oh,this is so cool because I'm
consuming something I'm connected with.
It has like a footprint off me. And the same thing with the

(11:20):
experience of house, a small thing like a salt, which is
mostly ignored as a as a cheap grocery item can transform food
and that that small impact can be so, so massive and what all
you can do through food. So that was one thing I related
very much with your story and also what he spoke about the
sales part of things, because I feel that's one skill chefs are
the worst at. And then this job that you're

(11:40):
doing right now lets you, you know, develop that kind of a
skill. So it's it's super interesting
for me. And I also relate with you that
I think this typical carrier, wehave this imagination only
because that's the only way we know through through the
placements they have. That's the only carrier they
kind of show you. And which is what also the
intention of the podcast is because there could be chefs who
are good at something, but they are not the ones who are going

(12:01):
to grow up the ladder like the ones who can like who are built
for that. There should be people who
should be in the industry doing restaurants and there are those
who have talent for other things.
And they should not kill themselves over the climbing
ladder if there is something they can do out of out of the
bigger bubble of things. And that's very interesting for
me how, how this you've connected us kind of from your
past to culinary school to this,this present of yours, you know.

(12:25):
And tell us a little about your first few restaurants you work
at. Was it directly a mass?
How did you end up there or what?
What kind of restaurants do you work at before having this
realization, you know? Yeah, I, I also was, you know, I
mean, before I left, so I went to university in California.
My parents kind of forced me to that they would not let me go
directly into a kitchen, which, you know, in hindsight maybe was

(12:48):
was pretty useful for me now also.
But but I did spend, you know, almost a year working as
essentially, if I look back at it, I just worked full time for
free for like a small Bistro back home because I kind of was
like, well, that's what you do, right?
So I did that. And I think it was actually
quite valuable looking back at, I think maybe sort of, yeah,

(13:09):
the, the balance of power was a little bit lopsided, but that's
OK. Then I, I moved to New York and
I'm, I'm definitely, you know, of that generation that someone
handed me. I think it was my father.
He handed me Kitchen Confidential.
OK. Yeah.
And it's like then you read thatbook and then it it you like,
I'm pretty sure a whole generation of chefs were sort of

(13:31):
romanticizing this hardcore pirates chef life where you
worked hard, but you also partied hard.
And that was kind of like, wow, I'm going to go to New York and
I'm going to kind of like envelope myself in this this
world, right. I worked in a restaurant called
Dovetail who, which was opened by one of the former French
Laundry chefs. And that was an amazing place

(13:54):
because it was it was something that I also sort of fell into,
but also it was a very small restaurant.
We didn't have prep cooks, so wehad to kind of do everything
from A-Z. And that's also, I think
incredibly valuable when I look back on it because I had the
opportunity to, to all the meat that was on my station to, to

(14:17):
prep all the vegetables that were on my station to fillet all
the fish or whatever. But you really kind of see the
process from A-Z. And I think even at that time
that that wasn't always the casein other places, right?
You kind of have different teamsor prep help to do different
aspects of the process. But there it was really sort of
like you saw end to end. I also sort of did an internship

(14:41):
at a place called Cortan, which was a two star run by an English
chef who was brilliant, but alsolike, like slightly psychotic
sometimes. And it was like very much my
Welcome to New York moment whereI saw some things in there that
like, I don't even feel comfortable repeating because,
yeah, I think we would frown upon that kind of stuff in in

(15:01):
today's restaurant world, Right.Yeah.
And then I, I then I was like, well, let's go up the ladder to
other stars. And and I spent some time at a
three star in New York as well before coming to to Copenhagen.
And then I, I didn't have the intention to stay in Copenhagen.
I was supposed to come for a month and, and stash at a mass

(15:23):
and, and also spend some time atRelay.
But I'm, I'm pretty sure Matt ata mass realized that I had like
a European passport and he was like, Oh my gosh, maybe, maybe
you want to work here. So that kind of wrote that story
and I, and I never went back. It's, it's obviously been it.
Well, not obviously, but it's been 10 years now in in
Copenhagen and I spent all of all of my cooking life at a mass

(15:48):
which which is a story of its own, but but a very cool
experience. Yeah, it's, I mean, it has to
be, right. I mean, we were just talking
about Matt actually in the last episode, because we had Dan who
was head shepherd Norma just after Matt left, when Matt left
Norma and he was talking about alot about how how it was working
with Matt. But how was how was a mask when

(16:09):
you started there? Because again, for somebody who
was coming from New York yourself and Matt himself coming
from Norma, a restaurant that he's made, which is, which is
it's so different from what Norma does.
I think a mask is so different by its own and it's made its own
kind of people. It's gone kind of public, its
own kind of crowd. What was it like working over
there? How different was it from what
you learned in culinary school or what you learned at?
The restaurants you worked at before, I mean, I think there

(16:31):
were, there were a lot of differences.
I think first and foremost it was it was tough.
It was like it was a small team,very ambitious menu.
We changed menu all the time. That was like incredibly new for
me. So much focus was put on the
produce, of course, which meant that, you know, when, when the

(16:52):
farmer didn't have the kilos of carrots that we needed, we
switched. And for, for a young me who had
never been in an environment like that, that was like
incredibly difficult to sort of adjust to, but also it made you
really sort of stay on your toes.
And, and I think that was like really what kind of keeps you
interested over time that like you're, you're constantly

(17:14):
chopping and changing. And, and it's also, I think an
interesting experience for guests when, when you can kind
of repeatedly come back and you see different things on the
menu. I think also like coming to
Copenhagen, it was a different vibe.
I think I found many New York kitchens like quite aggressive

(17:36):
and I think in, in Copenhagen and at the mass, the only one
that I can speak for is that like that was pretty absent.
I think we, we worked our asses off and it was like long and
tough, but the vibe was great. And now I have like a, a friend
here, but you know, I, I think from that I, I have like the

(18:01):
closest core of my, my current friends as well, because I think
we, we, you just formed such a strong bond once spending so
much time around around an environment like that.
I think very early on I realizedthat there was a huge emphasis
around really sort of analysing what we're throwing away, what

(18:23):
does not get used, what gets wasted and how we can sort of
reduce that and, and actually use that to drive creativity in
our menu development and, and all of our sort of base
processes, right. And how can we sort of apply
different innovation techniques,whether it's sort of old school
fermentation or, or, or new thoughts around that and, and

(18:46):
sort of utilize waste to, to create new ingredients, new dish
concepts, etcetera. I think, you know, I remember
back in New York, we would get like a lobster and then you
would use the tail and then everything else would go to
family meal, right? Which is like, that's kind of

(19:08):
what I thought was normal, right?
We would use an avocado, but youwould only take out the lightest
green part and everything else went to scrambling meal.
And I think when we got to a mass the you started to really
evaluate, well, that's that's a pretty bullshit way of thinking,
especially in this day and age where, you know, resource
depletion is such an issue. Maybe on a small scale, we can

(19:30):
actually sort of try and be better.
And, and I think that that is the main thing that I will
always take away from that. And I think it has driven sort
of what we do at endless, how welook at everything we do.
And, and, you know, just, it hasinformed how I feel about the
food system in general, you know, but that that that was a

(19:52):
core focus that we did on the small scale and, and, you know,
trying to do that and trying to see that maybe on the larger
scale within the food system, I think it's also really exciting.
Yeah, and what are some what aresome of these things that you
could mention? Because I remember one time I
was there, I remember tasting the fish noodles, for example.
I found that very, very good concept to to reduce that into,
I mean that is composting and there are other methods.

(20:13):
But if you can keep it within the restaurant, keep it
circular. I remember trying the lemon
tamari. I loved that innovation.
Also the branches we spoke aboutbefore starting record about the
potato pancake brunch, that was a very cool concept to make it
more familiar not just with the kitchen team, but with people
who can't afford say, eating in a mass meal.
They can have some humble of it and I also tried the ice cream
for example, I think it was withHansen or.

(20:35):
Some ice cream. Brands.
Yeah. Which was this?
Rye bread, caramel or salted. Caramel.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's all these
innovations. Yeah.
I mean, on a very simple level, we did a lot of sort of drying
and powdering and using a seasonings.
So we could do that with, you know, citrus skins and vegetable

(20:59):
skins. And then we kind of moved on to,
well, what if we sort of fermentthings before we dry them?
So all of the parsley stems thatwe didn't use in a dish, we
would ferment and then dry and then it turns into like a, a
seaweed wakame style sort of powder, right.
And, and that starts to also open up possibilities.

(21:22):
All of the the vinegars that we made were sort of results of
infusions with skins or ends of of vegetables or citrus.
And and then you sort of move toslightly more complex things
where we are developing sort of misos and garams that are are

(21:42):
based on Koji bases, but integrated with all of the sort
of small side streams that that come from the kitchen.
Everything from sort of coffee to meat trim to lemon, like you
said. And then we, we moved further

(22:02):
along the path and I think, you know, like late 2017, I remember
we were, we were taking excess scobie from our kombuchas and we
would like sort of bury them in,in sugar and then dry them out.
So then, you know, what we got was like, you know, the most

(22:23):
amazing sort of gummy out of used Scobie, right.
And then indeed, with, with Henson's and, and on a smaller
scale before, you know, across the street we had Lille Bakery.
And like most bakeries, they have excess bread.
And we thought, well, maybe, maybe there's something we could

(22:44):
do with bread. And this is also something that
Kim was really driving while we were able to take the bread and
sort of extract all of the latent sugars that are available
in the starch and then reduce itdown to sugar syrup.
And with that sugar syrup, we made an ice cream base.
And we did that on on the small scale in the restaurant, but we

(23:06):
also did that with Henson's for sort of like commercially
available ice cream or popsicles, right?
So I think, you know, if you look at A at a mass, there's not
everything was super complicated.
I think we started from from very sort of basic ways to
utilize waste oils, vinegars, dried powders etcetera, move

(23:29):
into sort of more umami based fermentation techniques and then
more more sort of integrated products that we were able to to
do on a slightly larger scale. I think if we, if we look at one
dish often that we, we think about them that really utilizes
sort of that whole ethos. We did a pumpkin dish and there

(23:52):
were these like beautiful Crown Prince pumpkins where we would
take the flesh and kind of like turn it into a beautiful little
puck. And then we took the guts and
the seeds and we fermented that and dried it into like a very
like sort of cool, cheesy like powder.
And then we took all of the outside skin and blackened it

(24:17):
sort of in the same way that youwould make black garlic and
blended it into like a paste. And so this dish was like on the
bottom, it would be a paste of like blackened pumpkin skin.
And then you would put this likepack of, of actual pumpkin flesh
that we had confi in mushroom oil.

(24:38):
And then we would cover it with like crunchy bits of this
fermented seed powder. And in really in that one sort
of bowl, you can kind of see thewhole pumpkin utilizing
everything. And then that kind of, I think
it's a really great sort of representation of of just our
whole thought process around food at that point.

(24:59):
Yeah, now, cool ideas, all of them.
I mean, every time I hear about these dishes like these, I mean,
it's, it's so much creativity that it can come out of it.
And, and what's inspiring is it doesn't stay, I mean, especially
when you're a restaurant like a mass, I think you end up
normally influencing other restaurants.
There's a lot of restaurants which are say, not in the same
category of restaurants. They kind of inspire themselves
to see what else is is possible out of there, but also the
consumers trying to possibly do something similar on their scale

(25:21):
of things to realize that if this can be elite and this can
be worth paying a menu for, thenmaybe it is worth creating
products around it. And then the innovations that
you mentioned which are more commercial like the ice cream, I
think that itself is a statementfor a consumer to start paying
price. I think that that change from
like throwing garbage to paying a price for that garbage.
In. Like inverted commas itself is

(25:43):
the transition we need in the world to to appreciate these
food systems when products like,like the ones you're creating
don't have to like shout too much of themselves.
And there's a general awareness that there is more possibility.
And that is it's worth paying the price.
Because then you're not paying the price for the most finest
caveat, but you're paying it forall the work and the process and
the drying and aging that's gonebehind getting getting there,

(26:04):
right. And next.
In from these ideas like a restaurant existing, it has all
these cool things going on it has an endless road ahead for
itself. What happens that it it decides
to shut the restaurant. I mean whatever you can share I
I leave it up to you. And how does that transform into
a restaurant Also because how does a company work now?
Because right now it's you, Matt.
And the third part I think it's Christian.

(26:25):
How, how do 3 of you kind of function to to make this company
and why do you shut the restaurant?
Yeah. I mean, I, I think, you know, a
mass unfortunately sort of was crushed by these COVID loans at
the end. And I think that was kind of the
main driver and, and that was a really unfortunate sort of end

(26:45):
to that. I think that like when we moved
on from that, there was always athought of, well, can we
actually take some of the the philosophy and the learnings
around sustainability within thefood system that we developed at
Amass and try and apply it on the larger scale.
And I think that sort of was ourdrive to, to create endless.

(27:10):
It wasn't until later that we actually focused on chocolate
specifically. But, but it was just so how, how
can we, yeah, take everything welearned, try to have more impact
on a larger scale. You know, in a restaurant, we
have the opportunity to to impact 40 to 60 people.
But like you said, there's millions of people who open up a

(27:30):
lace bag every day. And can we make a positive
impact on that level of the foodsystem?
And that's kind of what drove usto, to, to start endless, you
know, and then we started sort of in a very different,
different way. We kind of wanted to see if we
could do projects with external partners.

(27:52):
We sort of like we did at the end of of a masses time where we
were, for example, working with IKEA to help them utilize some
of their canteen ways to developnew ingredients for their own
sort of food systems. But I, I think at some point we
were like, well, I think it, we should focus on one thing and,

(28:15):
and let's make it really fun andplayful.
We have done this thing with chocolate in the past.
How can we sort of focus on that?
And, and like I said earlier, I think after doing sort of
immense industry research, we realized after peeling back the
layers that there's actually a lot of sort of opening here to
create something of a solution where we can actually work with

(28:36):
the existing chocolate industry to, to hopefully create
something that will alleviate some of their pain points going
forward. And, and that's kind of what,
what put us on this path, you know, at the moment that it's,
it's Christian and I who are running sort of day-to-day
operations and, and the strategyand the vision behind the
company, Matt is, is, I don't even know if I can say this

(29:02):
here, but he will open up a restaurant at some point soon,
right? And that's, that's really where,
where his heart is. And, and I think we have found a
really great balance in, in him being an amazing ambassador for,
for the company and, and the, the chocolate product that we've
created. But also, I think we will see
some sort of collaboration between Endless and and whatever

(29:24):
sort of restaurant outlet comes from his big beautiful brain
because out there we'll also be focused on sustainability on
multiple different levels. But yeah, that's kind of how we
operate today. And Max, why does chocolate come
up? Because when you said, first of
all, when you shared you are from a Swiss Korean family, the

(29:46):
Swiss side, I can understand, they understand chocolate, I
guess, right? Because but how does like how
does your Korean side connect with?
Chocolate I, I don't know if it really does.
I think like we never really atevery much chocolate growing up.
I think my, my dad, he would always bring some stuff back
from Switzerland. So there I was Privy to some,

(30:06):
some really nice stuff. But I, I think, you know,
endless, this chocolate story starts at a mass and, and it's
something that we in, in the effort to be as local as
possible, we had to sort of evaluate some of these
ingredients that we were using, olive oil, lemons, coffee,
chocolates. We cut out most of them, but
coffee and chocolate were prettyhard to sort of do.

(30:28):
I'm pretty sure people would be pretty angry if we never served
coffee in the restaurant anymore.
So that kind of drove the, the thought process of, well, you
know, for example, with chocolate, if, if we're not
going to use actual chocolate, can we build it ourselves
essentially? And, and at that point, Matt
also had a brewery called Broadman Build that was
producing lots of Brewers spent grain as, as, as all breweries

(30:51):
do, as, as a byproduct. And that's kind of where the
thought process started. And it it, you know, it, it
functioned in the restaurant as sort of like an R&D project that
we played around with and servedonce in a while.
But but not until sort of we really got going with Endless
did it become a real focus for us.

(31:14):
Yeah. And then now we're knee deep in
it so. And look, I mean, looking at
this, this chocolate innovation,right?
Like what do you think, where does this this product stand
right now? What is it?
What does it need from the market?
Or like, I don't think it shouldget as trendy as to buy
chocolate at the moment how it is, but what is the kind of

(31:35):
hopeful future for for the product?
Yeah, I I think, you know, the main thing is the tip, the tip
of the mountain. It would be like, can we coat
every Mars bar in thick and avoid using shitty processed
palm oil filled compounds, right.

(31:56):
You know, like at that at at multiple levels, what we consume
on a sort of large scale commercial level is not really
chocolate. It's it's mostly fat and sugar
and everything to sort of avoid high cost.
And I think, you know, if there was a better way at looking to

(32:17):
provide sort of a delicious chocolate experience for people
with a little bit more planetaryconsciousness, I think that's
kind of that's kind of our aim, right?
And, and hopefully we, we can sort of build a company that
focuses on providing that same flavour experience, that same

(32:39):
chocolate experience on a large scale without compromising, but
but maybe with sort of some added benefits on, on, on the
sustainability side, you know, And then I think the other thing
is like chocolate is such a touchy thing, right?
Because your favorite chocolate is probably very different from

(33:00):
my favorite chocolate. If you look at different parts
of the world, sort of like maybeif we look back to the, to the
starting conversation about whatchili and spice means to people,
chocolate is completely different in North Northern
Europe than than it is in Mexicoor, or the United States.
So I think, you know that that is also something that we play

(33:21):
with a lot. And it's a pretty difficult one
because there's, there's no one ring to rule them all you we
have to kind of like evaluate different markets and
understandings and and interestsand chocolates and that will
also sort of help us drive forward.
And talking to you, Max, as a chef, like, for example, like

(33:42):
this is a challenge, right? The challenge you're talking
about, I think most of the challenge in this challenge is
coming from your aspiration of the company wanting to, to take
the stride. Because if you don't know it,
the word I think will continue in a worse way, but it will, it
will go on, right? And that's the challenge you
face as a company today. But then you also have
challenges when you're a, you'rea chef, a pregnant lady walks in
or somebody has a random allergyor, or you run out of carrots,

(34:02):
as you said before. But in both of these challenges,
Max yourself is the same person.What do you think?
Do you need different as today the kind of role that you do and
what do you like? How much of that creativity, if
I call it, does come from restaurants?
And how much of it are you like relearning and continuously
renovating yourself? I mean, I still think that like

(34:24):
the bulk of my thought process in our current sort of product
development or or food focus things that that experience
comes from the restaurant. And I think that cannot be
understated. I think that like like we said
earlier, flavor is the driver for everything in the food

(34:45):
industry. It will be the driver for any
sort of change to a more sustainable or healthy food
system. I think that like we have all
experienced sort of buying something that was high in fiber
or high in protein and then it tasted like shit and you never
buy it again, right? And I think in in the world of

(35:05):
sort of making an alternative, we need to not compromise on
flavor. And I think that really that
sort of like real core pillar for us that comes from my
restaurant background. I think what what is very
different now is that like in a restaurant, we in many of my

(35:26):
past experiences, we tended to sort of R&D and R&D and R&D.
And you have all the time to sort of perfect something.
And then when you think it's at a certain perfection level, then
you give it to a guest during whatever a service, right.
I think what is very different here in in this sort of startup
life is that our R&D process hasto go like this and it has to go

(35:49):
extremely fast because what is way more valuable than your
actual R&D process is the feedback that you actually get
from users or or sort of consumers, right?
Because based on that feedback, we can iterate and change our
R&D process to get what people are actually looking for and
what they find delicious. So I think that has been a

(36:11):
completely different mindset, right that we actually need to
speed up the R&D process. It is all about the feedback
that we get from people who are actually eating the product.
That is the most important sort of driver to show you in which
direction you should go and not to sort of R&D in a in a box
and, and be like, well, I have created thus people will enjoy,

(36:34):
you know. So I, I think that's kind of, I
think that's, that's the main difference that I, I always
think about. But but much of sort of our
process, it really is sort of bolstered by our experience in
restaurants, no doubt. Yeah.
I. Know it's very interesting what
you say. I mean, it's nice to hear from
you because these are the concepts you read in a book like

(36:56):
the lean startup methodology of keeping or testing with real
clients and listening to them more than just making this very
crazy ass complex MVP and then realizing the customer doesn't
want it at all. And I mean that I completely
understand from you, like how how you say that that learning
comes from from a kitchen. But what I would like would be
curious about is how do you see craftsmanship and scale, because

(37:19):
craftsmanship is what you can afford to do at a restaurant.
You're going to every diner can eat something different and they
would be impressed by it. But again, at scale, you can't
permit being Craftsman with everything.
You have to have some sort of consistency, be it batches or be
it the whole product itself. Like a Hershey's bar tastes the
same whenever you pick it up. How is that a challenge for you?
Was it something you guys have to get used to now that

(37:39):
consistency is key and people want this consistent product
rather than say just variants inevery batch?
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, a
very sort of simple challenge isthe fact that it just on larger
scale, all of this takes longer.You can't just walk back into
your kitchen and try another small batch, right?
Because so much of what we do onthe small batch does not

(38:02):
translate to 1000 kilos. That's so much changes in that
process. So often if you if we sort of
lose focus of that, I think yeah, it can feel that maybe the
challenge is that we actually lose touch with the actual
cooking process that we're we'rein.
But but I think what we have learned is to actually make

(38:25):
those sort of small scale processes, we need to start with
something already that we can envision has sort of a long term
scaling potential. I think, you know, also what all
of these startup books, I guess will teach you is that your idea
shouldn't be scalable. Your idea should just be an idea

(38:46):
that you can kind of test. And then you have to figure out
how you can actually iterate on that and make it scalable.
And I think, you know, the Craftsman part has just sort of
shifted itself a little bit fromnot just staring into a pot and
trying to make the best sauce, but like looking at big tanks

(39:07):
and figuring out, so how does like air pressure and
temperature really affect this thing at large scale, for
example? So I think there's there's still
a lot of sort of overlap. I think that the challenge for
us is to, to actually figure out, you know, how do we, how do
we implement our experience on on a larger scale with machinery

(39:31):
that's new to us, with processesthat are slower with partners
that we have to work with that, you know, require sort of human
interaction and communication to, to dial in what we're
actually looking for. That I think, you know, it's,
it's, it's craftsmanship maybe on a different level.
I think probably a lot of peoplewould disagree with that and,

(39:53):
and feel that it's, it's at somepoint it's, it's like
industrialized food, right? But much of our system is
focused on that and then trying to keep it as lean and clean as
possible. Yeah, it's also really important
for us. Yeah, I feel, I mean, I think
it's it's hell out of creative than just making up something
which you can't replicate. I think.
I think that is creative itself in its own place.

(40:14):
But I mean, I'm not going to go to you or me.
We had that on the podcast last week and it's somebody who's
been in a fine dining restaurantand is now in institutional
catering. And he himself said that for
him, what is impressive the mostabout cooking as a career is
anything at scale, because it itjust questions everything that
you've learned. It makes you question, it makes
you fail miserably. And then making that work on
scale. I think that is very creative.

(40:36):
But like before, before I get into more about yourself, Max,
the last question about Endless is when you transformed your
career as being a chef to now endless.
I would say collectively you Matt and, and, and Christian as
well. What were the skills you had to
learn? Like, I don't know, business
books or law itself or registrations?
What things did you have to learn or what services maybe the

(40:56):
the industry has already that you don't have to learn.
Somebody will do it for you and.Which?
Tips would you give to somebody listening to it who say maybe
has an idea who want to, who wants to start up?
I mean, I know your context is Copenhagen, that might change
legally across countries, but but just a baseline.
Well, I, I mean, one, one thing I really had to like hone in was
like Excel, which sounds like a incredibly boring answer, but it

(41:18):
is like so fucking important that we use it for so many
things, right? No, but, but also I, I think
that what has been difficult forus and, and what we have gotten
better with over time, I think is the sales process.
Like I said before, I think I kind of never ever envisioned

(41:41):
being a front facing salesperson.
It always felt sort of disingenuine to me.
But I think like what we have learned is actually we can
really sort of be genuine, use our experience from restaurants
to actually drive sales conversations.
And and I think slowly we're becoming more comfortable in
that process. And then tied with that is like

(42:04):
really, really getting comfortable with rejection.
And that like maybe that's something we all face at some
point or another, but especiallythe sort of in the sales
process. It is it, it comes in very short
intervals and, and being able tokind of like like an athlete
kind of wipe your memory of the last bad play or whatever.

(42:27):
You have to be able to kind of like move on and, and, and sort
of approach everything as, as a new experience.
And, and I think in the beginning that was pretty that,
that was new and difficult for us, you know.
Yeah, I, I think so many other things.
We're not experts on the legal side.

(42:48):
We get a lot of support in, in many areas that we don't
understand. We never scaled anything to
massive degree and we get support on that side.
But I think what has helped us all throughout this process is
if you ask people for help, generally they are open and

(43:10):
willing to help, you know, especially if it's if it's in
their area of expertise. And I think like people love to
sort of offer assistance in in something they have experience
with. And I think maybe in the
beginning we were a bit shy withthis because also in a
restaurant, we tend to kind of think inwardly and all of the

(43:31):
sort of resources we have in ourbrain and creativity should come
from the people in the building.At this point, what we really
understood is that like we really need to be genuine with
people and develop a strong network of, of, of those that we
can actually lean on for support.
And I think that has really like, that has been a really

(43:53):
great asset for us. That was also sort of something
new that we had to, to understand.
But I'm also like an eternal optimist.
So I think like I, I truly believe that like, you know, if
you put it out there, people, people are always willing to
sort of lend a hand, right? And I think that has been really

(44:13):
nice for us as well. Yeah, no, super, I mean, super
cool answer. I think it's, it's much more I
think people, a lot of people into like food tech startups and
things like that end up reading,I don't know, story of Toyota
and companies like that, but I think that's, that's useful as
well. But I think listening to your
story of somebody who's personally done it, who, who's
like starting to learn this fromscratch, it's it's a very great,
I don't know, it's a very great input for me, like myself
listening to it and relating a lot with you.

(44:36):
And I think it prepares one alsoto kind of foresee what problems
could come up even if you can't prepare yourself for it is
better like, yeah, just know that that might come up, you
know, in the future. Yeah.
Moving on to maybe a question a little more personal towards
you, Max. Yeah.
How like, how do you see this change?
Because for you, this change happened because of the company
having to shut down the restaurant having to shut down.

(44:56):
You have to move into this role.I still think it would have been
a choice if you want to move on with this endless or not.
But had this not happened, do you how long do you see yourself
in restaurants? And I mean, it's connected to
the part like, how's your life right now and how is your life
in restaurants? And would this change have
happened if it wasn't forced upon you or you would have?
Yeah, just been going on with the restaurant industry.

(45:16):
I, I think that's a really good question.
I think that like, you know, thevery honest answer is that
during COVID it for me, I, I sawthe inherent fragility of the
restaurant industry and that is not, I don't know who's, you

(45:38):
know, that that's no fault of anybody, but but I think I saw
that like restaurants are reallyteetering on a knife's edge.
Margins are super thin. You know, labor costs are
extremely high. Of course, lots of great people
are, are doing amazing things and very ambitious.
But I, I really saw, well, shoot, like, you know, you have

(46:00):
something like COVID, which is no small event, of course, but
we saw that kind of like ripple effect move throughout society.
And, and I really think that like hospitality businesses,
restaurants, they were, they were smashed by this, right,
financially and, and otherwise. And I think that kind of started

(46:22):
a thought process in my mind of,well, OK, so if I feel a little
bit uneasy about sort of the stability of the restaurant sort
of model in general, how else can I look at using my food
experience and my love for, for food in general?
And I think that kind of sort ofpushed in the direction of well,

(46:44):
so if, if I would like to do something and build something
from scratch and it's not a restaurant, how do we actually
do that? And I think I was very sort of
taken and forever will be to thesustainability mission that that
sort of ran at a mass and, and taking that and sort of my my

(47:07):
interest in in building something from scratch that that
really kind of drove my personalinterest in, in, in creating
something like endless. I think if you talk to Christian
and Matt as well, I know that Christian would have probably a
similar answer in 10 in terms of, well, you know, it would be
really great to sort of build something from the ground up,

(47:28):
utilize past experiences, you know, be in a new category,
create something completely new and have that kind of that
startup ride and see where that kind of takes us, right.
I think that otherwise, I, I think, you know, there are

(47:51):
glimpses of time where I go intoa restaurant and I'm like, shit,
that looks fun. You know, I could imagine, I can
imagine myself doing that. And like, man, it was really fun
to work late nights and, and it's so amazing to have sort of
the instant gratification of like working on something all

(48:12):
day and then giving it to someone at night and having them
enjoy that hopefully. And, and that's a, that's a cool
sort of interaction that I don'thave any more, right.
We, what we're working on often,whether it's sort of admin
projects or, or development projects, they take longer and

(48:33):
sometimes it's like, did I, did I accomplish anything today?
I don't really know if I did anything with my time, right?
Where in restaurants it's very, you know, you're doing very
tangible tasks and you can kind of see the fruits of your labor.
So I think that has also been anadjustment from my side to be
like, well, the lifestyle and, and the work environment is

(48:53):
completely different. Of course, you know, having a
more sort of Monday to Friday, that was also completely a new
thing. It, it sounds really silly, but
like having to think about making lunch for yourself every
day is like that is that is likea jigsaw puzzle in and of

(49:15):
itself, right? Like in a restaurant, we had
staff meal that was taken care of you.
You don't have to worry about things.
So I think like there's, there's, there's, there's a huge
shift, everything from really small sort of innocuous things
to kind of more complex changes.But yeah, I think I found myself

(49:36):
in a really, in a really good place and in a new industry
where I can sort of still utilize food and then be around
food. But but that being said,
there's, there's some moments intime where I look back at
restaurants and I'm like, I mean, I could see myself, you
know, so. Yeah, who knows what comes

(50:00):
right? And Max, like, do you see
yourself as a chef? Like there's two questions to
this. One is, do you see yourself as a
chef? And 2nd, do friends and family
who know a little about what youdo.
I think it's a very difficult job to explain what you do right
now. Do see, do they see you as
chefs? Because this is important for me
because it's very curious how somebody who feeds the least
people or the highest price is seen as a chef.

(50:20):
Because I think that also leads to innovations.
I think many restaurants lead leading up to, I don't know,
Madrid, Fischeron or some of these events.
They build up innovations in therestaurants because there's an
instant gratification in the client level, but also these
recognitions and awards and these things that go on with
restaurant chefs. But unfortunately, we have no
idea who's producing Hershey's and Bounty and all these
recipes. We do not connect them as food

(50:42):
service or food industry at all.We just think it's it's a lab,
it's this association we've made.
I don't know if it's the packaging or the way we buy it.
What kind of interaction is it that makes it like looking at
this big picture? First question is do you see
yourself as a chef And the second, do others see you as a
chef? I mean, I, I think that I'm, I'm

(51:03):
pretty sure I will always see myself as a chef.
I think that like, you know, onepart of the, the previous
question that I could have addedis that like I, I will always
see myself as a chef, but I was also a chef at some point who
wanted to develop other skill sets.
And I thought I, I don't want toonly be a chef in the very

(51:26):
traditional way. I want to be able to be a chef
and then integrate sort of otherskills in in whether it be sort
of organization building or or excel or or sales or or just
business strategy in general to to sort of hopefully create a

(51:48):
rounded sort of Max. So that was also, you know,
quite important for me in the early stage.
I think that like if, if I thinkabout others, I think, you know,
my friends and family, I think at least my family, I think they
think I'm a chef. I don't think they understand at
all what I'm doing in the chocolate business, which is,

(52:11):
which is fine. But I think others, I, I think
maybe the perception changes a little bit that I'm, you know,
more in this sort of startup game that I, that I was
previously a chef. So I think it's kind of it's,
it's, it's different my own takeand, and what people see of me.

(52:32):
But that's that's also sort of how I see it.
And yeah, maybe that's OK too. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's going to be easier,right?
And that's the idea with the podcast as well.
I mean, I purposely call it likefugitive chefs because I feel
all of us are working in food and maybe more impactful than
just working in restaurants. And yes, there's always this, I
mean, as you said, you know, missing the staff lunch and also

(52:52):
the flip side of it of having this evening free or things.
I mean, I do not know about you.I think Startup game has to be a
little a bit more complex when having like very intense days to
very not so intense days. Yeah.
But this fluctuation of routine,at least having some days when
you have some time for yourself or the same friends, friends and
family you spoke about. I mean, I don't know how is it
for you? Do you feel you have more time
to attend to these other sets ofpeople in your life or how's

(53:14):
that gone? Or work life balance?
Yeah, I think, I think I do. You know, I think the balance is
a little bit better for sure. I think not working nights sort
of opens up more time to spend with significant others friends.
You know, the weekends were sortof untouchable for me for for

(53:35):
many, many years. And then in the same vein, I
think you just like you said, startup life is like beautifully
chaotic. It is the peaks in the valleys
are so intense. The the amount of I don't think
I work any less, to be honest. I think like the work has been

(53:56):
shifted in the day, but even that has allowed me to sort of
have a little bit more time withwith family and friends.
And I think, yeah, that that's that's also important for me.
Yeah. Often I think actually in this
in, in a small scale startup, weit does feel a little bit like a
restaurant in the sense that like it the the intensity is

(54:21):
high and you're constantly going.
I think in start-ups sometimes like it is a complete emotional
roller coaster sometimes in, in one day, right.
But that's also kind of, again, part of the fun, yeah.
Yeah, super interesting, especially in your case.
I mean, you have at least peoplearound you who are, I think

(54:42):
hopefully go to the same emotions because they're also
coming with your past and then facing this challenge together.
I think it's a beautiful mix youfound there and and hopefully at
least you can like count on eachother if you can't understand
what's going on at some point, right, Everyday business.
But before we wrap up this podcast, Max, tell us about
like, think about there are, say, 33 chefs out there who have
the similar idea of starting a startups getting out of the

(55:05):
restaurants. What advice would you give to
them? Like, I mean, you've given so
many, I think, suggestions through this.
I think about how working lean on reiterating on these ideas
together with feedback from people thinking always like a
chef. But what else could you add to
this and people who are sort of scared to make that plunge?
Because again, as you said, you know, in the beginning, there
are not many role models out there of people who come out of

(55:27):
kitchens and sold something commercially.
And we're always aspiring to climb up the ladder and do what
the masters are doing. What would you say to them?
I mean, I think that's a good question.
I think there's a couple different ways that I, I would
look at it. But I, I do believe that really,

(55:50):
especially if you want to stay in food and, and want to do food
on a larger scale, whether it's with a corporate or starting
something of your own, I think really remembering your sort of
experience as as a chef is, is incredibly important.
And, and everything comes down to flavour.

(56:16):
Understanding that, like everything that we do currently,
and I think what most food companies strive to do is create
an incredibly delicious product.And if, if flavour is always the
core of, of our decision making,the, the ideal endpoint is to

(56:37):
make a delicious product, I think that really shines through
because that will come through in, in conversations with
others, with investors. If, if that's the route that you
take, We can see that like thereare so many great innovations.
There's so many cool people doing like precision
fermentation and really hardcoretech.

(56:59):
But at the end, what is really moving any needle is, is sort of
flavour and, and deliciousness, because at the end someone has
to buy it and someone has to enjoy it.
So I think like, you know, as a chef, I, I felt inadequate.
Well, how can I get into the startup?
I, I'm not an, I don't have an MBA from Harvard.

(57:21):
I don't know all of the sort of legalese that's involved.
I don't know how to raise money.I don't know how to do the sales
process. I don't know anything about
organization building, but I think like what we have
developed in kitchens, so much of that a resilience that we
that we learn from working in kitchens and also in the front

(57:41):
of the house and, and so much ofthat sort of creative drive and
the ability to adapt. And then I'll tie that down to
sort of flavour. I think.
I think it, it gives you an amazing, amazing sort of
platform to actually begin something either of your own or,
or with something that already exists.

(58:02):
Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, super
interesting what you said. I think it's, I will, I'm really
impressed at what you said aboutlike not forgetting your chef
past and like counting on like rather than focusing on what you
do not know, really falling backand holding strong on what you
know. Because what I've also seen
often on like startups coming from from chef backgrounds is a
lot of these chefs enter the industry, realize the industry

(58:22):
has a lot of cheat codes for a lot of things and some of them
you have to adopt. I do not think you should temper
all the bars by yourself if there's an alternative for it,
but I don't know if you're adding cardamom to your
chocolate for as an example, youshould still go for the best
produce off cardamom. Go and talk to the farmers,
still roast, still know things of your kitchen background and
the values you bring. Not just the techniques, but the

(58:43):
value of how a restaurant work, how a chef works.
And then there has to be a balance.
But I think remembering that theflavour has to be the core and
this your chef past can still contribute a lot to a new ball
game. Altogether, I think it's a very
beautiful advice from you. No, I mean, totally.
And and thank you so much for your time, Max.
I think it's been a great chat. I think it's, I mean, I knew a

(59:04):
little about you, but I myself have learned so much about you.
It's very exciting what you're doing.
I look forward to what all comesout of endless what happens with
thick and I suggest everybody tolike, yeah, follow your work.
I think you guys are doing some some great work out there and I
wish you all the very best with it.
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
Yeah, that's a, you know, I think we haven't had that

(59:25):
opportunity to sort of have thiskind of discussion.
And I think it is, it's super interesting what you're doing.
So, you know, I, I think also there are so many people, you
know, maybe in the restaurant industry who would like to, to
seek alternative ways to utilizetheir skill sets.
And I think also being able to showcase some of that on, on

(59:47):
especially on this podcast, I think it makes a lot of sense.
And hopefully you know it it it helps others in the future, but
I, I really appreciate you inviting me on.
It was great. Thank you so much.
It's. Been a pleasure.
Cool.