July 15, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, we speak with Frederik Jensen — a former fine-dining chef who left the restaurant world to tackle the food system from the inside out.
From working in Michelin-starred kitchens in Copenhagen, Shanghai, and Tokyo, to co-founding the food innovation powerhouse Chew, Frederik has now launched Nutrumami (https://www.nutrumami.com/) — a company focused on creating clean-label, multifunctional ingredients that can help reshape how we eat.
We discuss:
– The reality of kitchen culture in Japan, Denmark, and China
– Why chefs are uniquely positioned to drive food innovation
– Building Neutromami to fight ultra-processed food through better ingredients
– The misunderstood world of clean label, fermentation, and scale
– What chefs bring to R&D teams in FMCG
Whether you're a chef considering a new path, a food scientist, or just someone curious about the future of food — this episode is packed with insight, honesty, and a vision for better food at scale.
👉 Follow and rate us for more stories from inside and outside the kitchen.
#FugitiveChefs #FrederikJensen #Nutrumami #FoodInnovation #CleanLabel #FoodSystem #FoodTech #ChefLife #RestaurantToStartup #CulinaryScience #UltraProcessedFood #Fermentation #IngredientInnovation #KitchenCulture #FromChefToFounder #FoodPodcast
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Frederick Jensen
01:33 Early Influences and Culinary Journey
04:56 Culinary Education and Apprenticeship
07:36 Experiences in Shanghai and Japan
11:45 Cultural Insights from Japanese Kitchens
18:14 Transitioning to Concept Creation and Business
27:02 The Birth of Chew and Its Vision
27:46 The Birth of a Food Innovation Lab
30:41 Merging Culinary Arts with Science
33:29 The Role of Chefs in Food Innovation
36:39 Navigating the Challenges of Food Development
40:31 The Transition to Nutrumami
44:20 Innovating with Multifunctional Ingredients
46:09 The Debate on Ultra-Processed Foods
52:17 The Future of Plant-Based Products
56:13 Government Regulations and Market Dynamics
01:02:02 Advice for Aspiring Food Innovators
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So hello and welcome everyone toanother episode of Fugitive
Chefs Podcast. Today we have Frederick Jensen
joining from Copenhagen. Hi, Frederick.
Welcome to the podcast. April Kron, thanks for having
me. Now.
Perfect. Thanks a lot for accepting this.
Yeah, such a short notice to to participate in the recording.
And yeah, being part of this crew of fugitive chefs we have
we have gathered on this podcast.
(00:21):
And Frederick, I mean, this is Ithink the most interesting part
of the podcast when I introduce people because the people on
this podcast don't have a certain tag to them.
Like I do not know how to address you as a rather than
doctor, technician, the chef, the normal occupations, you
know. So for people who don't know
you, Frederick, how would you introduce yourself?
It's, it's a very, very good question.
(00:42):
And it's also I like the approach to, to this mission.
You have it. I never thought of myself as a
fugitive, but but it does make sense.
And if I were to say, introduce myself as a chef today, I also
think that's wrong. So what I say is I do food
innovation. So somewhere in in between I
guess. I think I think we'll dig into
that We have we have this episode now to dig into what
(01:04):
exactly it is that you do today.But I think before we get to
where you are today, let's go back.
Let's go back to when I don't, Ithink before even your first few
jobs interest in food. What was your first entry point
into food? Yeah, For me, I got onto food
quite early and I was sort of like fixated this it, this is
it. Of course, I got a bit of a
(01:24):
taste from working as a dishwasher, you know, doing
different things. Luckily I brought up in the
house that really appreciated food and good cooking and
ingredients and so off and and you know, that inspired.
I think it's easier to get inspired by something when you
get a chance to really kind of like work with it.
So very early on I was sort of OK straight out of school.
(01:45):
I'm just going to go into to culinary school and just start
working, although with some protest from my immediate family
to be so pigeon told so early on.
But nevertheless, I just went for it and in should I describe
a little bit of that process? Yeah.
I mean, there was this first of all, like I'm you're curious
like this was in like Copenhagenor other parts of Denmark.
(02:06):
Where was this? Yeah, Yeah.
So Copenhagen originally grew upin other part of Denmark or
Joplin, but then yeah, this is Copenhagen.
And here there is the Danish government culinary degree takes
four years, pretty standard. So very different from the US or
even other countries where there's even different kind of
private models. Here it's a it's a technical
(02:28):
degree. Would you say it's like
different from current Copenhagen, like your Copenhagen
of that time? I think I don't know if parents
are as against the idea of beinga chef in current Copenhagen.
Like what do you think that was so different back then?
So, you know, it's come and goneand of course there's been a
tremendous and still is, you know, popularization of chefs
and food and cooking and, you know, chefs that are literally
(02:52):
equivalent to two stars and rockstars and so forth.
But I think it was, it was, it was not necessarily maybe in
some cultures and many, some areas they look a little bit
down on people in the service industry, which is of course
terrible. But I think it's more going into
a kitchen or in the service industry.
It's very hard work, right? It's very hard physical work,
(03:16):
even philosophically impact and then the prospects, especially
back then, OK, I'm not that old,but still, I guess I'm older and
it's it's it's hard to see like,OK, So what do you do when you
can't physically do this anymore?
What what is the different career ladders, right?
It doesn't have that same perspective as many other
(03:36):
industries have, right? So as a parent and I can even
put myself in those shoes now I have two daughters.
Yeah. I think I will also be a little
bit hesitant or at least to makesure they really know the full
landscape of this. But but the good thing is, and I
think there's also a big kudos to what you're doing.
It's not just OK, I I, I'm work in a restaurant, I'm a chef.
(03:58):
And then that's that's it, right?
And then it can be this type of restaurant.
It'll be that type of restaurant.
It could be over there. It's food, right?
Food is so many different levelsof and areas of industries,
right? Yeah, endless.
And then so from as you said, you mentioned you started in the
Danish government, the public system of the four year
bachelors, I think of education and then what came next for you
(04:20):
from there? So the way it works, there is a
four years, you spend half year and then you're in and out, you
know, from on the school and then basically apprenticeship,
right? And so predominantly you spend
basically three years of that. You're just you're apprentice
and working in a restaurant of your choosing that you have, you
know, got yourself into and and of course also work for free
(04:41):
several times to actually get that position.
I was lucky to get into very good restaurants.
I report shooting after the, thefine dining type area, the the
Michelin's type stuff and got cracking at that.
And then I already had a taste for it.
But then of course you get very much hooked on and the intensity
there is in of course in the kitchen.
(05:03):
It's, it's like running a good service, everything that's
around it, while of course also being very demanding and very
tough, especially if you're young having to deal with
different things. So but but yeah, it was at a
restaurant. It's called Premise, it's called
AOC now Michelin star and then from there I I had heard from
restaurant in Shanghai that werethe chef to cuisine by Paul Pray
(05:27):
and Paul Pray. I think it's incredibly chef and
I just heard so many amazing things about it.
So I basically I contacted me can I come and do a * stare?
So it was before ultraviolet. I was Jade on the 30 on
Shangri-La Hotel and then he went on to create Mr. and Mrs.
Bond and an Ultraviolet. Yeah.
What is that? Three stars?
(05:48):
Well, this was actually before there was stars in China or a
nation that's. But now I am so phenomenal.
And I for me, it was just, I was, I was so taken aback what
what he was doing there and thenworking there for a couple of
months and then as you know, really want to get back and they
offered me a position. They wanted me and then I came
back and took a position there and I finished my degree, but I
(06:11):
actually stayed longer until I was not allowed.
I had to go back and actually finish out, take my, my what is
a diploma and then from there, which that was just amazing.
It was also the exposure to a widely different culture scene,
you know, not that we were doing, we were not doing Chinese
(06:32):
food or Asian food in a sense, but of course heavily inspired.
This was avant-garde, French, but highly creative and just
amazing all around. So, but also just the exposure
to working in such a different place and environment was just
mind blowing, especially as young as I was.
I was what was that 17, 1819 andaround that kind of luggage.
(06:53):
So that really bit me and and itwas hard for me to imagine going
back to Denmark from there. Actioning guide has just been
published in in Japan and you know, they they kicked basically
everybody's big cities stats. Nothing more stars than the New
York and Paris combined. So I thought I have to go to
(07:14):
Paris to Tokyo. So I just went there got
introduced to one person that I met on the first day said, hey,
I want to work in a kitchen. I got a three month visa and and
this person. All right, well then this is a
Kaisiga restaurant here. Let's just go in and talk with
them. And so on the first day landing
that same day, jet lag. Then we went in into a fine
Kaisiga restaurant, sat on the floor, and then they were kind
(07:36):
enough and she, of course, she was Japanese, so she could do
all the right things to, to makesuch an instruction.
Then we sat on the floor for a long time and then finally,
actually the head chef came and then we spoke and then he said,
all right, sure. Then come to my main Kaisiga
restaurant and start working, I think two days after, or not the
day after, but at least but two days after.
(07:56):
And I remember that day clearly and OK, nevertheless, that it
was a bit very fast in terms of going from just landing and then
getting into a kitchen, but thenstepping into the actual
kitchen, a Kai Siggy a little bit outside on the outskirts was
just such a eye opening experience because it's so
refined, so detailed and and beautiful kind of food.
(08:22):
But actually the whole atmosphere and the setting and
as well, I think the the people there are there is quite rough
in a way and and a little bit brutal in a sense.
So why I sort of like describe that is because this whole
experience or brought me sort oflike this very eye opening.
(08:42):
And I was bidden to, I have to really try to talk about this,
this, this, this, this type of kitchens, these, this way to go
about it. I also want to work in different
kitchens. I ended up finding my way up to
roughly 9 different Japanese restaurants.
And my excuse were, well, I'll, I'll work for basically nothing
(09:05):
and free, but then also I'll take photos and one day I'll
publish a book about it, not knowing that I would actually be
able to get to publish a book about it.
But but I got a chance. And then my three months ended
up being, you know, a couple of years touring around from
everything from tree * Kaiseki and Kyoto to small Lisa Kaya
(09:25):
pups to soba to all, all types of things.
And then I documented my work and the atmosphere and the whole
kind of things with with taking photos myself and writing and
journal and and that was that was sort of the that the next
stage. And and I did get to actually
publicize the book in Denmark. Barbie Sabi.
(09:48):
It's not in friend anymore. And then once I published it, I
sort of went on to my new project versus trying to do
something with it. But amazing journey.
And again, totally unplanned, unexpected, just one thing
leading to another, which I think for a lot of people and
and and certainly in my case is is often the aspect.
(10:08):
I mean, there's already there's already signs of you like from
what you do now is like I say, far from restaurant industry,
but I think already you were like pivoting of sorts of like
finding this opportunity of journaling, getting more into,
say, communicating that side of the kitchen.
So I think there's already signsof like, you know, doing
something which is out-of-the-box because of course
one size doesn't fit all, especially in a context where
(10:30):
you grew up in Denmark, studied in Denmark, but practically
trained in in China. That one of the uses opportunity
to lead you into a question about kitchen culture.
Like what sort of kitchen culture do you see in all these,
all these kitchens? Because I remember when I was
back when 2022 towards the end when we were, when I was in
Norma and we were planning to goto Japan, which later got
(10:50):
delayed to 2023 when I was not there anymore.
I remember like we had the R&D team go to, to Kyoto first, do a
study with Thomas and everybody else.
And I remember Thomas specifically came back and
gathered us, the employees, and gave us like a picture that you,
when you go there, you'll be working with Japanese staff.
And they don't work like the kitchens out here.
They don't understand why would you run or why would you have
(11:11):
pressure. They don't understand rush.
They don't. Yeah, the processing of things
is slow. And now that I see it with my
company right now, I've been three Times Now for other sort
of food system deals and also rhythm of business.
Everything has a very different pace and a very different way of
doing things. So how did you see that the
culture, the kitchen culture specifically?
(11:32):
Yeah, I you're absolutely right.It is very different and and I
think of course I'll eaten different kitchens too in the
same country can have very different kitchen cultures and
and, and always some pros and cons, but Japan for sure quite
different. And also, again, I would also
say which with some pros and cons, I think first of all,
there is a, there is a Japanese culture in itself and a way of
(11:56):
sort of going around things thatof course carried into the
kitchen, which allow for a totally different way of really
focusing, perfecting fine tuning, which is obviously also
leading to the very exquisite food.
And especially doing something like that when it's so simple,
right? So perfecting spending years and
(12:17):
honing one craft where these days even even chefs or cooks
and things like that, you know, they just want to move on up or
to the next thing and things like that.
So they really embody that. And I think both that they
embodied that. It also brings a different calm
to the kitchen because they knowthis is what I'm doing, this is
what I'm want to keep kind of doing and at peace with that.
(12:41):
Now it's very heroically based. Now kitchen is always kind of
quite heroically based, but I would say in Japan is extremely,
it's even to the fact that, you know, they don't hide up the
shoes. I guess it's similar even to the
height of the chef, you know, the height of the shoes.
So right. So the Yoda Choda, the head chef
would work on quite high stilts almost traditionally.
(13:02):
So, so that aspect of that and that is quite strong.
And then there's a very predefined way that you have to
behave or what you can and cannot say in different ranks.
So my first day in Kyoto, my first walk with wonder could
speak a little bit of English. And you're taking me down to
meet the main head chef. He he, he told me that in in
(13:25):
Tokyo, it's a little bit more. OK, everybody can be their own
personality. But in Kyoto you are the the
same basically, which was a was a quite unexpected sort of
conversation to have. And now and the other thing is,
I guess we all hear about him screaming and throwing things in
different kitchen in Japan. It's still quite common to hit.
(13:47):
And I've seen that whether that is like backhand and even to the
point of seeing when the the head chef is too high in the
owner and a different aspect andhave to bend down to make sure
that it can land properly. All of that is of course not OK,
but it's just to sort of paintedthe picture.
It's while in the same time extremely supportive.
You are such a caring team. You also really take rest in
(14:12):
between and you, you of course sit down with a meal and all
that sort of thing. So mixed, very mixed aspect of
some totally different. Yeah, right.
I mean, I think for me, like whatever part of Japan I've seen
all these different trips, it's always for me personally, it's
like a culture I admire and I love the way they do things.
But at the same time, it's not for me personally.
(14:34):
It's not aspirational for me. I feel the way I am, the sense
of hyper energy I have, of hyperactivity.
I think I would like suffocate in that kind of an environment
where I would be like, you're bound to.
And I think there's a good part of it, which is you end up
perfecting something because it's all you do all your life.
Great. But I think it's, for me, it's a
culture which I can admire from far.
(14:54):
But yeah, immersing myself into it for like an extended period
is kind of in my, in my head toxic.
Because I think it's also the based on the culture you've
grown up in, where like for me, growing up in India, everything
is fast. It's like survival of the
fittest. Only the fittest survives.
There's competitions and queues for everything because of the
population. So for me, Japan is like the
other. Yeah.
(15:15):
It's like a dying, dying population.
So in that sense, yeah. But I think there's still like a
good takeaways from and we've seen that.
I think that's why we see in thekitchens mostly a lot of
Japanese techniques applied, sayin pastry or things like that,
because that's again, a craft which requires a lot of
measurements and precision and and thinking things like that,
Right. So yeah, from there then what
happens? So you do the book, you, I
(15:36):
think, come back to Denmark then, and what's your next
interaction? With exactly right so then I
start to get a taste for sort ofcreating concepts mainly first
in the food service kind of caferestaurant is kind of concepts.
So that's OK. As a fugitive chef now, I start
definitely slowly walking away from just there.
And I was very much bitten by the aspect of sort of this that
(16:00):
well, of course, I think most get into astronomy because the
creativity of food, flavors, ingredients, what you can create
our then put that more on a commercial aspect and sort of
crafting concept and the business around and all that.
I think it even just made it even more multidimensional and I
thought that was really fascinating.
(16:21):
And then of course also the scalability of it.
You can create something that then, you know, can impact
again, a little bit more people because you can sort of
duplicate it versus if you are in one kitchen, you have those
four wall, 4 walls of seeds, right?
So different aspects of, of scale, different way of working
(16:42):
with the with, with, with, with not just as a menu, but
everything around it in terms ofcreating a concept.
And so I really like that. And the first I sort of held
with was something called smushy.
So Danish open face sandwich, but then brought into the sign
style of, of, of sushi, not mixing flavors and stuff, but
(17:03):
just refining the way you eat and experience it.
And we also did a book and finally enough, we opened that
in Denmark and we actually went and opened it in Japan.
We also opened it in China. Very different stories.
And then I did a couple of thosetypes of, of, of concepts while
finally getting actually to weigh in in in the US.
(17:28):
And from there it was sort of the next ladder of, of food
service starting as director of food for a fast cashew company
out of Chicago, but in multiple different states.
I think there were roughly 3040 stores and 400 employees.
And then now that'll again just increase the the the scale, the
(17:51):
complexity sort of requirements to finger around food, even to
the point of like the sourcing of the ingredients, working with
contract manufacturers that is making different specialized
components or products of yours to think, you know, where can
you get most value of impact from from resources from in in
team labor and also knowing that, of course, the team itself
(18:13):
is not like trained culinary people.
So again, as if interesting challenge that just opens up
that I again wasn't wasn't awareof to a degree before I start
doing it. And I mean, what you mentioned,
it was very super interesting for me the yeah, sort of fusion
kind of an entrepreneurial idea you had with Japanese and Danish
(18:35):
culture. But things like that, when you
started or before taking up the challenge of the the, the
ventures you've done in the States, you know, before we go
on to chew, which is a very exciting part for me.
What you, what you made it happen there.
But before this, any sort of education into business or
design thinking or like how did,was it supernatural for you?
Did you have mentors who guided you on this way or how did you
(18:56):
end up? Because for me, I think the
people listening to this are again, like, I want them to
relate with you as much as possible.
So coming with calorie education, working in
restaurants, how do you make that pivot?
Yeah, Yeah, I know. That's actually it's things I
think about now. And so first of all, I didn't
take any additional degrees or things like that.
So everything has been just self-taught learned along the
way. To be honest, I wish I had, and
(19:18):
I think if I had online type schools or even that sort of
ability to do different things maybe been as broadly
understood, then, then, then, then I maybe I would have.
Because I think if I did some kind of MBA on the side or some
other kind of aspect of it, I think it would only just have
helped me far better. I can only frankly recommend
(19:40):
things like that because you're going to of course improve the
one's own work, but of course also just it would open up the
ability for certain type of position, certain types of roles
quite differently now. Yeah, I was lucky and in the
sense of both, I come from very entrepreneurial families, from
my grandparents to my mother to my father.
(20:02):
I think I it was just in a way just realized.
I thought that was actually whatyou did.
If you you want to do work, you have to go and create the kind
of work. So everywhere around me as only
in in growing up and family and even how that has influenced my
own upbringing has been entrepreneurship and doing
stuff. So that way that of course helps
(20:26):
then fantastic, of course mentors people to work with
along the way and learn from thefood services did in, in in the
US, the board of people there massively talented people that
have done major companies and and within the food industry,
both in McDonald's, Chipotle andCredit Manchere and a bunch of
different things. So great exposure and of course,
(20:48):
taking off as much as possible. So yes, I wish I had done more
even like now I think, you know,too busy with different things
and and going away. But but and of course, never too
late. But the more you can sort of lay
on to it, I think it's definitely it helps open up
opportunities for sure. Well, I think it sounds super
interesting the approach you've taken.
(21:09):
I think, I think that doesn't look some sometimes what I think
of myself because I did not go to a fancy culinary school, for
example, in my case. And then I think because I did
not go, because I neither had the time nor the economics nor
the, the country was in the, northe right moment for me to be
there. I am kind of happy I took the
route route I took because when I see now students coming out of
culinary school, I think they miss what I had.
(21:30):
At the same time, I would have been grateful to have some of
what culinary schools teach. You know, I think that's really
applicable in your your case also because now recently I've
been very interested into after talking to you and more people
like like you in the, in the industry.
I'm yeah, reading business cultures, how tech field works,
for example, in the states with thewhole.com uprise and the
crash. And I think food is going
through similar instances of sorts.
(21:51):
If you look at like direct examples.
And many of them say, for example, that Business School
students kept keep like the MVP is getting improved and improved
and improved and they never really touch the user like it's,
it's never tested in real context.
And they're like making just improvements.
And that's, again, one fault with people who come out of
business schools because you're just in a very cushioned
environment. So I think with what you did,
(22:13):
you hit the ground running and then just kept on growing.
But yeah. That's, that's exactly, you
know, that's inherent into people in the only way to trial
and error is to physically trialand error, right?
I think that is also something Ishould learn, especially working
with, with food scientists or other things, which takes a very
different approach. And it's like, it's actually,
it's a stark contrast. Yeah, that's what I mean.
(22:35):
Always I try to the idea that spot cast was born because I was
stuck in this point where I was like, I don't want to work in
restaurants anymore, at least for now.
And so I might have to study, which is why I asked you the
question like, did you study? So I think for me, more examples
like you and myself are out of proof that there are skills that
we might not have documents to support, but they are equally
(22:55):
relevant. And as you say, if you somebody
can afford to do CNNB on the side or, or, or a MOOC about
some business aspect while testing it out with real people
like you were doing, I think would be, it could be a great,
great plus. And I think moving on from
there. So there we are.
We are with your story in the States right now.
I'm very excited to know about you because I have like been
(23:16):
following it, reading about it. Colleagues of mine have
travelled to Boston, met Adam and the team and seen what's
happening. Really.
OK. Yeah.
So we we are very much in touch.We had interns working in Chu at
one point, and I met Adam in, this was in Switzerland two
years ago at the Climate Hack and heard about fast food, what
he's doing with that. And then, yeah, he's super
active with the community, becoming a try doing a
(23:37):
triathlon. To.
Support that. So tell us about tell us about
like, I'm I'm very interested toknow how does an idea like to
take birth and what happens withit?
Crazy journey without a doubt. So I knew Adam from we worked
together in in Shanghai. So we actually renew each other
way back when. And he actually he was doing a
(24:00):
he was in the US, he was doing achocolate company and then and
the first other job I took with as a food service in this chain
chain. It was an introduction that he
gave to to one of the board members.
And then we start checking it and then he contacts me at some
point and saying, Hey, you know,I'm thinking start food, a food
studio, food innovation lab. Not really kind of knowing what
(24:23):
even what that is. I don't think you even know.
But it sounded fun and cool. Yeah.
We started chatting. I was in Chicago, he was in
Boston when there. And then basically we just, OK,
yeah, let's do it. And our first part I, we didn't,
(24:43):
we did not know what it was going to become or exactly what
it's going to be. But doing food innovation
development, kind of really taking the culinary principle,
merging with science. That was sort of like the
different aspects. But first part was actually a
range of restaurants and different things, concepts or
more in the food service area onthe West Coast.
(25:06):
But then from there it went quickly into CPG or fast moving
consumer goods land. I think that can probably say,
you know, as the first customersand like Kellogg's, right?
So it went from from food service to suddenly big food
type area. And it was first of all, it was
(25:26):
just me and him to begin with the home kitchen, but then
quickly just a first kind of lab, which in the beginning just
looked like a little restaurant with a little kitchen over there
in the corner. Again, not knowing actually what
we were about to build. And in little by little, we, we
sort of went along, We got some food scientists there on board
(25:48):
starting during these different projects.
And it really took off because the idea and especially Adam,
which is, is, is definitely visionary and an amazing sort of
sales in terms of pushing boundaries and, and, and, and
trying to approach things and innovation.
I for me is more making it happen, right?
(26:11):
She might go out selling eggs and then come, hey, we have to
like, how are we going to do that faster?
And then it was me and the team,whatever we kind of needed to go
after, OK, what could it become?And then bring it to life,
right. That was sort of the general way
was kind of ended up being carved up, but little by little
(26:31):
it was it was a very interestingpoint in time because big foods
they might have the way innovation is done there is
typically like food scientists, some just do some project
engineers and things like that and then a marketed team.
So you have a marketing team where you have this kind of very
deep R&D technical team sort of polar opposites and way of
(26:51):
thinking and consumer all that. And so the magazine would draw
up a concept and then tell the and the team now make this and
they will come back with something that was quite a
different. And then somewhere in the
organization, then maybe there will be a corporate chef
somewhere stuck over in a cornercoming with A twist to a lemon
puppy muffin something whatever.So the aspect of really merging
(27:16):
an approach with, with, with culinary people and, and food
scientists, not just sort of less, OK, you do flavor and you
do now stability and and scale up, but actually really making
them work side by side was quitenovel suddenly back then, and
maybe I was in different ways degrees now.
(27:36):
So you take the, the aspects of,of, of culinary people, chefs in
terms of the speed, the, you know, trial and error, bringing
things to life, to taste, to, tolearn to explore, to take these
maybe very niche ideas in whether it's flavor, but even
sort of like form, texture and, and elements.
And, and marrying that with, youknow, some that is really
(27:59):
thinking about the scientific aspect or process aspect of it.
And then, of course, you can, you can have the marketing and
the creating and the consumer, all that.
And then doing that enable just innovation development in a
whole different way in terms of speed and the output.
So that was really the, the, theformula that we, we started the
(28:20):
building and perfecting and, andreally trying to process
optimize over the years and, andcrazy, right.
So we from from our home kitchento in the first lab and then as
we start out at the restaurant, but it quickly turned into
different bays, areas, differentsort of functions that we would
do different things. Equipment kept rolling in.
(28:41):
We grew, you know, out of the seams in terms of size of people
there build a far bigger lab, maybe too big, but it was
definitely only a beautiful and and and get to roughly 4040
employees at the time or the highest thing in working with
pretty much all the major Fortune 500 companies in in CPG
(29:07):
and how old types of categories.Like, how do you convince?
Like, I mean, I completely agreewith what you said.
What do you say? Because what also we see in here
in the European context is mostly the chef enters when say
a cream cheese company has made the cream cheese and then, OK,
make me applications of this to be able to make a commercial
brochure to sell it. So when you enter this market
and say pitch to, I don't know, giants like Kellogg's, what's
(29:28):
your approach like for people listening to this?
Like, why do you think as a chef, somebody who's listening
to this should think that they can contribute to, say, an
innovation to say, an FMCG product, which is a different
ball game altogether? Well, first of all,
fundamentally it's old food, right?
So why? Why not, right.
Old food based upon ingredients going through a process of being
(29:50):
created Now, OK, very different dynamics has to be upheld to to
do it on a very large scale, which for some is super exciting
for me. Like perfecting something you
can put on a scale and just do tons and tons and getting out
and impacting an excitement to amassive amount of people.
While in the same time, if you're doing that more
(30:11):
nutritious, more sustainably in terms of ingredients again, then
you're actually creating real change.
And especially also if you're working with big foods, which
all of them have some pretty badproducts amongst them.
But you, you're making what perhaps could be seen as an
incremental change, but because of the scale is actually
(30:31):
massive, right, then that's really exciting.
So now for some that's, that canbe very exciting and some it's
not and that's completely fine. The other, I think key aspects,
so if you are drawn to to that aspect of scale and development,
because it's, it is a lot of riches development and fine
tuning and tweaking and and a lot of different things that has
(30:54):
to be sort of fall off with for some it's exciting and Father 1
is just nauseating. I have to do ADOE of 36 and
different formulas where I twistthe different degrees of fat and
flour and texture systems. And then again, no, let me just
kind of cook with some fresh ingredients, right?
And so very different aspect of that.
(31:15):
And that's completely fine. So if you're drawn to that.
And then the other thing, we also definitely came to learn
phenomenal dolty. There is a way to process
thinking that is that is of course really important to
either embrace to learn or already kind of have sort of
inherent in order to really kindof enjoy and do it well, right?
(31:36):
So it's not for everybody, but for the ones that is 4, so much
that can be done. Yeah, no, it was super
interesting. I mean, actually for as a matter
of fact, this morning I was in aopen first lecture, then an open
table discussion with Alejandro Marabi.
He's like the open innovation head of PepsiCo.
And we were talking with him about like how the students that
we have in the masters were verymuch like reasonably demonizing
(31:58):
FMCG. And then he was explaining how
much ever good you want to do asa, say, A2 Michelin star chef
and defending messages which aregreat and noble.
In the end, you're only accessible to a very few select
amount of people, whereas 1 billion people open a Lays or a
Doritos packet every days. The impact of big.
So I mean, I think people who are chefs especially who want to
(32:18):
yeah, I think for whom the purpose of the purpose of their
career can be say putting plate on the food and at a humble bar
or then making larger impacts. I think it's the only way to
correct course correct the system is to yeah, look at them
as look at these bigger brands as kind of alliances like the
biggest acquisition which has happened now with the Poppy on
(32:40):
how they've taken that into their.
So that's again tapping into a whole white space of consumers
of functional drinks. Absolutely.
And then I would also say to anybody who may be listening
there and then the culinary kindof like it's not just flavor,
right? Flavor is of course massively
important and is a big challengein itself, but there's so many
(33:02):
other dimensions that culinary people can and should bring.
Should not just be be as in terms of finding a flavor
variant. Yeah, I think the experience, I
mean, I don't know opening a packet or texture or things that
we do. And I think many of us as chefs,
the things we learn are the things we end up doing because
of depends on the scale of restaurant, how much margin it
(33:22):
has to spend on R and DI think scaling up many of these things
could be, I think really futuristic solutions on.
I think chefs do have many tools, which on some level on
food science level industry has some answers to it.
But then again, it doesn't know how to make give the human
component to those answers that I want to want to respond to.
So I think yeah, super, super interesting to to see the the
(33:45):
story of, of Chew. So many tough lessons and so
many great successes, but so many tough lessons.
So as you kind of do, yeah, whenyou go into it, like really read
up on it. And in that sense, in terms
going back in terms of medication or other things,
(34:05):
there's amazing books on it, butalso so many different things
because it is a whole different beast.
And and it can be quite, quite painful if you have major
failures. Yeah, I mean, I think I was one
of the episode of the podcast I was mentioning with the chef as
well that I think of all the restaurants I've worked, all the
carriers I've done. I think the book of how to not
(34:27):
do things is always, for me bigger than how to do things.
And I think that sets then a platform, you know, and that
gives me the best opportunity topivot into where I was heading
right now for you to come back home.
Now this new venture, Neutromami.
Yeah. Yeah, I would not indulge more
in like things that you took from your previous previous
chapter. But then how does this
transition happen? Was it a call back to home or or
(34:49):
what brought you back into this now?
Yeah. And well, yeah.
So in a way, after 10 years in the US and then actually back to
Japan a little bit. But then while tinkering on
this, yeah, I wanted to get backto Europe that's sort of more
geographic and and and kids, butalso I think it was Europe is
good opportunities of doing an impact.
(35:09):
But more importantly in what this company is about neutral
mommy, which is very much all based upon the years in, in, in
product development and innovation.
And, and that is to fundamentally go back to, to the
ingredients. And I think all like, again, as
old cooks and chefs kind of know, right, your food is only
as good as your ingredients. And I'd say is same is true as,
(35:33):
as, as products, let's say consumer products and way the
industry in, in terms of it's, it's a very different way of
creating food, of course, for, for, for big scale.
And here you're working with allthese different ingredients,
doing one different function and, and everything is highly
kind of segmented. And that's of course, could be
(35:54):
very customizable, but in the same time, it's also extremely
challenging in terms of buildingyour food.
You have to work on the texture system, the flavor system, what
kind of nutrition profile and then you need what kind of
claims you need to go after and what kind of shelf life and
what's the process? And, and then you end up with
the situation that we see most food in today because you as a
(36:17):
developer, you add an ingredient, something else goes
a little bit bad. And then you have to, let's say
you add a protein, Then now you need to mask the bitterness of
that. Oh, then you're adding that and,
and then now you want to improvethe nutrition and you add that,
but then the texture goes out ofwagon and you have to work on
texture. So just this endless puzzle and
(36:37):
you always end up in some kind of compromise.
It does this really how it feelsand a lot of work.
So whether the compromise is on the taste, texture or nutrition,
the ingredient line being very long or the clean label aspect
of it, or anything that is associated with what is becoming
a more known term in terms of ultra processed food, which now
that's a whole lot of topic in itself.
(37:00):
It's, it's, it just felt like I've been doing, you know, clean
product development for for manydifferent years, but it feels
like there's really a new needs to take to the approach to the
ingredients itself. And of course, also to bring a
little bit of that culinary aspect of in that, because when
we're cooking food, the things are actually doing different,
(37:20):
different function in one ingredients, not just like I've
extrapolated all these differentfunction and then combined in a,
in a, in a mixture. So going after basically
multifunctional ingredients thatyou can, you know, do more with
less so you can realize, you know, a better foundation of
food that is also more wholesome, gives, you know,
taste properties, give texture properties, give nutrition
(37:43):
properties. That was really sort of the,
the, the mission inspiration into building this company,
really going after the complexity, the excessive use of
additives that we see in our food system, trying to deliver
something that is far more wholesome, clean label, but of
course still super tasty and, and all the properties that we
want. And then maybe also definitely
(38:04):
not maybe, but as a buy effect, let's almost sell it like that.
All based ingredients. So, so that's, that's the,
that's what we're doing. And of course, we're doing that
through our fermentation. And so for, for a layman
thinking about neutral Mommy as a company, I'm I'm thinking of
like retail segment product, like a processed product company
or is it an ingredient company for B2B business where what is
(38:26):
what is new mommy for? Yeah, I forgot that.
So ingredients B to B into manufacturers and away going the
whole way back and and doing innovation on the ingredient,
which sounds I guess could soundextremely boring as it comes to
fingers from a culinary perspective.
But but I think it's widely exciting because it also enabled
(38:49):
in the innovation itself off that food products and the way
you go around building it and creating it to be quite
different. But yes, we sell an ingredient.
It looks like a powder. It looks quite ordinary, but
then to enable a new type of theproducts.
Yeah, OK, super interesting. And how how do you see?
I mean, you mentioned clean label, you mentioned ultra
processed in terms like that, which I think are I think when I
(39:13):
first started hearing them, it was like, oh, great, people
care. People are interested in what
they're putting in their bodies and conscious about it to now
where I sometimes get scared when I'm seeing people
considering like putting everything into one box, like
everything that has an E is bad.Where do you see yourself in
that debate? You know, because I have, I have
heard like sensory scientists saying that if I can break, get
down a strawberry and get down to the polymer and then start
(39:35):
from not a strawberry and come down to the same kind of flavor,
is it right? Is it wrong?
So debates like these, where do you as a company stand which is
using something as traditional as fermentation, you know?
So yeah, no it is widely complexand just my last week was was a
lot of this topic. I was one.
I was attending a webinar for Non UPF Verified which is a new
(39:55):
certification that is going to be launched in the US built by
the same organization as do non-GMO Verified and.
Just to put in perspective, I'vedone so many non-GMO verified
products, even things that makesupon ingredients that has never
been associated with to not to be modified sodas in a way no
point, but it became a necessaryto communicate to consumer the
(40:17):
the health aspect of it. non-GMOround represents 40 billion in
annual U.S. dollar sales. So a major counterpart and in
order doing non new PF and then I was sending a talk by 4
different people that come hang university all coming with a
very different aspect and and focus on it.
So I think where we are right now is everywhere and nowhere
(40:41):
and everybody's running in in different directions.
That's just sure, but I think I think that's OK.
I think the other kind of interesting stats understand you
know, the last 90% of of of all papers around UPF has been
published in the last was 445 years, right.
So it's a massive momentum that is starting on this.
But of course it is a massive complex area and you cannot, you
(41:05):
cannot just throw it everything in, in one general
classification. Now that's the hot debate
because that's the Nova classification of just these 4°.
I think Nova is fantastic in terms of what it has brought to
the light and switching. It's not just nutrition or it's
not nutrition, it's process thatis is the part.
(41:26):
But again, I think there is nuance and more technical
understanding to be done. So little by little, I think all
these things would happen and we're going to see different
degrees, different ways to responding into it.
Regulatory is doing different things.
They're responding to UPF, but again, through more nutrition
aspect of it. If they look like AU kit, they
do high fat, salt, sugar kind ofregulations.
(41:47):
Now that is pretty strong. That forces you to to remodify
in a lot and and in a sense alsobecomes less UPF actually.
So, so different ways to respondto it.
And then science would would, would keep doing different
things, but you can start to maybe carve out, OK, this
specific class of ingredients, like take the the the very big
(42:10):
ones, like the artificial red colour.
That's bad. So but, but more and more we, we
should be able to do that. But I think from a consumer
perspective, in this confusion and complexity, once there is an
opportunity to declassify something as ultra process or
market is not ultra processed, then that's of course what we
(42:33):
will be chosen over something else.
In most contexts of whole food for any things that is in remain
in indulgence guilty kind of treat.
I think most consumers, everybody knows soda as a soda
or chips or chips. There would be healthier version
of it, but there will also be the candy and the different
stuffs and all that. So I think we'll see consumers
shopping quite differently depending on the types of food.
(42:59):
And then secondly, we would see a divide of, of these different
types of products being sort of,OK, there's some, well, this is
it what it is and cheap, convenient and it's a treat,
whatever then OK. But the things that we actually
should be nourishing from needs to be better.
And this is also, of course, what what drives me and us is,
is the things that we're supposed to be nourished by.
(43:22):
We need to be nourished by nutritionally but also by the
types of ingredients going in there.
I could obviously quite a lot of.
Definitely. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, I
think to summarize it, I think the right source, yeah, the
processing source where it starts from has to be pure
because again, there's so much like all the claims that you
(43:44):
mentioned. And again, this is Europe you're
talking about. For example, I've heard in in
Mexico, you have all the Doritosor whatever chips have like a
massive black sticker saying high in sodium.
Ecuador has like a traffic lightpolicy on all the Pepsi, like
the Coke 0 somehow without a traffic light.
So it's apparently the best drink you can have.
And then again, in Europe we have something with Nutri score,
which is again something very voluntary.
(44:05):
People have adopted. There's been recent years claims
against it. The calculation is apparently
not as transparent as it seems, which brings down to like, you
know, yeah, having the consumer sort of lost.
I've also heard we had a studenttoday who raised the hand and
said, you know, she heard a podcast somewhere that why don't
foods which are not good for youhave something like the
cigarette packets, you know thisis going to kill.
(44:28):
You. Yeah, exactly.
And then we had the sensory scientists respond that, you
know, at one point, the person who smokes cigarette, that
sensory doesn't work anymore, that that claim is not working
anymore because you're so you'reso used to it.
I think so, yeah. I think the regulatory bodies,
as you said, have to have to do due diligence and then again,
non corporate like the foundations, public private
foundations, which are neutral have to have to somehow moderate
(44:50):
this and starting a business like neutral mommy, which is
which is which is young and making a new proposition.
How do you see yourself with thenews that we're hearing about
the segment? You know, with I mean, of course
you would know how beyond is going in the US stock market and
the early predictions coming outand and again, the response,
sadly, the not knowing, I think in the uncertainty why it what
(45:10):
happened happened? Is it because we assumed the
early adopters would forever stick with it?
Did we miscalculate it's such a big market?
Or did we just isolate the problem so much that doesn't
become relevant anymore? Where do you see these things?
Yeah, I know. And that's so first of all, we
are using plants. We are taking the plants of
course ingredients very wholesome, simple, but we are
(45:32):
not just OK plant based vegan products at all.
We really more going after the middle type areas where hey, we
can make this far less animal based ingredients where it would
be dairy cream butters. We can lower the, the, the
animal protein. And of course also in things
where well, hey, we can make actually a whole plant based
type something even better or cleaner.
(45:54):
And we of course also look to toto to definitely do that.
So we don't see it. So this and that the plant based
category itself, which has been really true to Ringer.
Now, of course there is a market, but it's not as big as
everybody forecasted. And there's actually just too
many players even just on the fields are a lot is is is of
(46:14):
course really hurting now. It's going to continue to grow,
but I also think more important is going to really evolve into
something that is not necessarily just the imitations,
but but being something in its own identity, which I think is
also what really needs to happenas consumers.
Again, we're not going to turn everybody vegan.
It's not going to happen, but we're going to need to eat more
(46:34):
plant centric. I think that's that's clear.
So having options that just can be used.
I think the rise of tofu in a, in a even a way in different
areas shows the aspect of, you know, hey, we can have different
solutions or not just as chicken, pork or beef options or
fish, right? And the main thing I think the
(46:54):
biggest is draw that has also been, of course, on a lot of
these plant based things is theyare highly associated with UPF
going back to that aspect, because most of them and beyond
and stuff like there's some serious things that has gone
into it. While nutritionally, you can
certainly shoot a lot of far better values.
So you're fighting a consumer perception and maybe you will
(47:17):
also there's there's a fighting in terms of some actualities and
maybe a bit too much processes in some circumstances.
There is a need for a major refresh all around conceptually,
the creativity. And I think that's an exciting
time for everybody jumping into this area to, to create new
innovation. But I think there's also word
opportunities of doing differentingredients to unlock this.
(47:38):
And so for me, I'm excited, although you have to fight the,
the, the standard perception there is in plan based or, or
things like that. I talked with investors that
said, we don't believe in plan based any longer.
So we don't believe in plans anylonger.
Like is this just going to go away?
So that's that's. Understandable.
(48:01):
And like when you look at your competition of sorts, you know,
like the kind of market, I mean,in your case you're hybrid, so
you are kind of making your space within within a space.
But do you think, I mean, it's still still a young market, as
you said, there are too many players out there.
But also one claim that I've heard is that the governments or
the regulations are not very fair to plant based because it's
not that it's expensive, it's just that the amount of
(48:22):
subsidies the other side has makes it way cheaper to be able
to compete. So do you think in that sense
governments need to do enough tomake somehow half price parity
where the choice is not money but just better value or, or for
everybody's context, what's better?
Yeah, no, I, it's, it's, it's, it's insane and and no
government is not is definitely not doing enough.
(48:44):
And we're having in Denmark, we had this big tree pot where I
was about to, to improve all those aspect and put the tax and
beef right, which is a laughablelevel.
And actually in many ways just log us more into insensitives
for, to give better pace and, and, and, and circumstances for,
for big animal production. So short answer, definitely
(49:07):
government is not doing enough. And if you were to sort of, if
you were to do a startup and this, this was a brand new idea,
we're going to do beef as, as a startup and then go out and sell
it. You know, the cost of that is
astronomical. And so, so without a doubt, and
it is far, far outweighs what actually the cost of, of plants
(49:28):
and self, which is, which is in a also in a commodity area.
But because what you happen to have to, to, to do with it and
makes it very expensive. It's really hard.
I wish I had a perfect answer. I think everybody has to to, to
work and impact different thingsin old ways.
And I think we'll we'll get to anew, hopefully a new status quo
on. It and shifting to more positive
(49:48):
things, you know, talking about like let's let's let's go back
to neutral mommy for somebody listening to this, I think you
explain much very well the business proposition, but I
would be also interested in whatfuture you're looking at, like
what kind of projections you're doing for yourself in this.
What kind of problems are you answering to?
But more than that, I would liketo know what kind of profiles
are you looking for? Because I know, for example,
Nabila, somebody I know who was on this podcast before is part
(50:10):
of that part of the organization.
So what other kind of profiles do you do you look for for a
start up like this? Yeah.
Well we have more ambition and and drive than than is maybe
good. So we want to we want to do a
lot of stuff and and there's particularly this, this, this
cross fermentations that that weare applying and building that
(50:30):
platform in terms of layering different effects through one
whole food medium. And then in parallel what is the
solutions that we really see is necessary in the market?
What is the different combination of effects and
functionality that we really think makes a big change and
solving key problems, whether it's problems for consumer, the
(50:50):
problems for retailers or manufacturers, taking all that
in and there again within the sweet and savory and old foods
is massive. Then take it even further into
sort of functional health space,Even more opportunities to go a
whole newer way around functional health, again through
a whole food medium by having different key functions in, in
(51:14):
one versus again, where functional nutrition generally
is again, different extrapolation or synthetic
elements kind of composed. I think there's a there's a new
opportunities to go about that too as well.
So too much ambition and but we also have to focus on on
creating some results right here, right now.
And then that's what we're doing.
So of course, we need to grow this this team well over time.
(51:36):
And I've been super fortunate with the team role Rabbit now
including Nabila. We will we would have to it is
because we broaden on different functionalities.
So Nebula that's now we're in the flavor and sensory
department, which is massive part.
We have Chu Chu, which is more the fermentation and process and
interactions of that. And we have Jacob, which is more
(51:58):
culinary applications because wehave to take one hour ingredient
into more innovation and solutions and how to sort of use
and apply that in the best way. We need to go next probably
deeper around texture propertiesbecause every texture properties
are so widely different, whetherit's like a fat texture
properties or it's like a gelling properties.
(52:18):
So texture is a function area we're going to be.
We also have to do more culinaryin terms of probably gastro
science was I think it's a fantastic degree.
That is definitely something we would look on our radar to, to
find the right person to to comein and mix also data because
what we do can be complex. We have to be very smart about
(52:39):
how we go about it, trial and error, yes, but it has to be as
an intelligent as possible. So we have to leverage the tools
that are, you know, more and more frequently available and
and generate data and partnerships that we can
accelerate the development. So we'll also look for people
that is more data, technically inclined individuals, yeah.
Super interesting, you know, whowould who would think a chef who
(53:02):
started off in a in a school in in Denmark and then go to China,
Japan, would be then scouting for for a team like this?
You know, but that's the beauty.I think of the possibility chefs
have showed of shown to the to the industry that you know what
we're going to get into this andstructure it the way we will
take the good for what is there and we'll bring what we've
learned from our past. So I think to conclude this
talk, I would like you to highlight like sitting now at
(53:23):
this point where you where you run a company like neutral and
all that you've told us before what parts of your chef passed
are the ones that you hold on toright now and the ones that give
you the vision to be able to lead in what you do today.
And a follow up to that, what would you advise people who are
in the restaurant industry who have maybe ideas like you maybe
who are at the point you were when you left it?
(53:45):
So yeah, two sided question on what do you bring from there?
What do you what do you suggest somebody?
So I think first of all, food isI think one of the most personal
thing you can almost create and sell because it is a thing that,
you know, other people put inside their body like and to
give many different emotions andnourishment.
(54:06):
So it is, it's a, it's a concept.
And I think culinary people or from a culinary background
understand that emotion on part quite well.
And that is super important. I think it's super important
right now, especially as we lookto think about our food systems
and how we go about what the ingredients and the food itself
and all that. So that emotion and part that
emotional anger I keep kind of bringing in.
(54:29):
And I think that should that should really be valued, I think
for for everybody. And then the other is, is I
think in in a kitchen, you, you create, you do, you take actions
and you learn by doing. So that is definitely also what
has got me through the whole kind of journey now.
And also now, especially in a startup is about taking action,
(54:49):
learn, do, evolve, fail, try something else.
Those are really, really, reallygood skills to have, I think,
and embracing those. Great Frederick, any advice for
the future? Any advice for people you're
listening to you. And well, just like I think your
mission food is so much more than of course, a restaurant or
(55:10):
dish or things like that is it is so interconnected in some
different ways. So there's so many different
opportunities. And I think education in terms
of laying on to food in itself is a is a massive advantage,
especially especially now. So I can I think I can only
underline that taking on these axillary maybe doesn't even make
sense. Types of learning thing would be
(55:33):
a super helpful. That's been, that's been a great
chat. Frederick, honestly, I mean, I
knew about you through what I'veread, what I've heard from
industry peers. Yeah, this, I think this podcast
is also for me a great opportunity personally, apart
from all the people listening, dive into people like you.
And it's every time, I think every conversation ends with
being just struck by if you wouldn't told your story like
(55:53):
this, I wouldn't have known thatyou were a chef before, you
know. So first of all, like I would
close by saying thanks a lot forparticipating, for sharing us
with your with us your story. And yeah, it's been a pleasure.
No, thank you. Thank you for having me, for
crying and love your mission, what you're doing here.
Super, super good. I wish I had that when I was
younger, frankly. Thank you so much.
So hello and welcome everyone toanother episode of Fugitive
Chefs Podcast. Today we have Frederick Jensen
joining from Copenhagen. Hi, Frederick.
Welcome to the podcast. April Kron, thanks for having
me. Now.
Perfect. Thanks a lot for accepting this.
Yeah, such a short notice to to participate in the recording.
And yeah, being part of this crew of fugitive chefs we have
we have gathered on this podcast.
(00:21):
And Frederick, I mean, this is Ithink the most interesting part
of the podcast when I introduce people because the people on
this podcast don't have a certain tag to them.
Like I do not know how to address you as a rather than
doctor, technician, the chef, the normal occupations, you
know. So for people who don't know
you, Frederick, how would you introduce yourself?
It's, it's a very, very good question.
(00:42):
And it's also I like the approach to, to this mission.
You have it. I never thought of myself as a
fugitive, but but it does make sense.
And if I were to say, introduce myself as a chef today, I also
think that's wrong. So what I say is I do food
innovation. So somewhere in in between I
guess. I think I think we'll dig into
that We have we have this episode now to dig into what
(01:04):
exactly it is that you do today.But I think before we get to
where you are today, let's go back.
Let's go back to when I don't, Ithink before even your first few
jobs interest in food. What was your first entry point
into food? Yeah, For me, I got onto food
quite early and I was sort of like fixated this it, this is
it. Of course, I got a bit of a
(01:24):
taste from working as a dishwasher, you know, doing
different things. Luckily I brought up in the
house that really appreciated food and good cooking and
ingredients and so off and and you know, that inspired.
I think it's easier to get inspired by something when you
get a chance to really kind of like work with it.
So very early on I was sort of OK straight out of school.
(01:45):
I'm just going to go into to culinary school and just start
working, although with some protest from my immediate family
to be so pigeon told so early on.
But nevertheless, I just went for it and in should I describe
a little bit of that process? Yeah.
I mean, there was this first of all, like I'm you're curious
like this was in like Copenhagenor other parts of Denmark.
(02:06):
Where was this? Yeah, Yeah.
So Copenhagen originally grew upin other part of Denmark or
Joplin, but then yeah, this is Copenhagen.
And here there is the Danish government culinary degree takes
four years, pretty standard. So very different from the US or
even other countries where there's even different kind of
private models. Here it's a it's a technical
(02:28):
degree. Would you say it's like
different from current Copenhagen, like your Copenhagen
of that time? I think I don't know if parents
are as against the idea of beinga chef in current Copenhagen.
Like what do you think that was so different back then?
So, you know, it's come and goneand of course there's been a
tremendous and still is, you know, popularization of chefs
and food and cooking and, you know, chefs that are literally
(02:52):
equivalent to two stars and rockstars and so forth.
But I think it was, it was, it was not necessarily maybe in
some cultures and many, some areas they look a little bit
down on people in the service industry, which is of course
terrible. But I think it's more going into
a kitchen or in the service industry.
It's very hard work, right? It's very hard physical work,
(03:16):
even philosophically impact and then the prospects, especially
back then, OK, I'm not that old,but still, I guess I'm older and
it's it's it's hard to see like,OK, So what do you do when you
can't physically do this anymore?
What what is the different career ladders, right?
It doesn't have that same perspective as many other
(03:36):
industries have, right? So as a parent and I can even
put myself in those shoes now I have two daughters.
Yeah. I think I will also be a little
bit hesitant or at least to makesure they really know the full
landscape of this. But but the good thing is, and I
think there's also a big kudos to what you're doing.
It's not just OK, I I, I'm work in a restaurant, I'm a chef.
(03:58):
And then that's that's it, right?
And then it can be this type of restaurant.
It'll be that type of restaurant.
It could be over there. It's food, right?
Food is so many different levelsof and areas of industries,
right? Yeah, endless.
And then so from as you said, you mentioned you started in the
Danish government, the public system of the four year
bachelors, I think of education and then what came next for you
(04:20):
from there? So the way it works, there is a
four years, you spend half year and then you're in and out, you
know, from on the school and then basically apprenticeship,
right? And so predominantly you spend
basically three years of that. You're just you're apprentice
and working in a restaurant of your choosing that you have, you
know, got yourself into and and of course also work for free
(04:41):
several times to actually get that position.
I was lucky to get into very good restaurants.
I report shooting after the, thefine dining type area, the the
Michelin's type stuff and got cracking at that.
And then I already had a taste for it.
But then of course you get very much hooked on and the intensity
there is in of course in the kitchen.
(05:03):
It's, it's like running a good service, everything that's
around it, while of course also being very demanding and very
tough, especially if you're young having to deal with
different things. So but but yeah, it was at a
restaurant. It's called Premise, it's called
AOC now Michelin star and then from there I I had heard from
restaurant in Shanghai that werethe chef to cuisine by Paul Pray
(05:27):
and Paul Pray. I think it's incredibly chef and
I just heard so many amazing things about it.
So I basically I contacted me can I come and do a * stare?
So it was before ultraviolet. I was Jade on the 30 on
Shangri-La Hotel and then he went on to create Mr. and Mrs.
Bond and an Ultraviolet. Yeah.
What is that? Three stars?
(05:48):
Well, this was actually before there was stars in China or a
nation that's. But now I am so phenomenal.
And I for me, it was just, I was, I was so taken aback what
what he was doing there and thenworking there for a couple of
months and then as you know, really want to get back and they
offered me a position. They wanted me and then I came
back and took a position there and I finished my degree, but I
(06:11):
actually stayed longer until I was not allowed.
I had to go back and actually finish out, take my, my what is
a diploma and then from there, which that was just amazing.
It was also the exposure to a widely different culture scene,
you know, not that we were doing, we were not doing Chinese
(06:32):
food or Asian food in a sense, but of course heavily inspired.
This was avant-garde, French, but highly creative and just
amazing all around. So, but also just the exposure
to working in such a different place and environment was just
mind blowing, especially as young as I was.
I was what was that 17, 1819 andaround that kind of luggage.
(06:53):
So that really bit me and and itwas hard for me to imagine going
back to Denmark from there. Actioning guide has just been
published in in Japan and you know, they they kicked basically
everybody's big cities stats. Nothing more stars than the New
York and Paris combined. So I thought I have to go to
(07:14):
Paris to Tokyo. So I just went there got
introduced to one person that I met on the first day said, hey,
I want to work in a kitchen. I got a three month visa and and
this person. All right, well then this is a
Kaisiga restaurant here. Let's just go in and talk with
them. And so on the first day landing
that same day, jet lag. Then we went in into a fine
Kaisiga restaurant, sat on the floor, and then they were kind
(07:36):
enough and she, of course, she was Japanese, so she could do
all the right things to, to makesuch an instruction.
Then we sat on the floor for a long time and then finally,
actually the head chef came and then we spoke and then he said,
all right, sure. Then come to my main Kaisiga
restaurant and start working, I think two days after, or not the
day after, but at least but two days after.
(07:56):
And I remember that day clearly and OK, nevertheless, that it
was a bit very fast in terms of going from just landing and then
getting into a kitchen, but thenstepping into the actual
kitchen, a Kai Siggy a little bit outside on the outskirts was
just such a eye opening experience because it's so
refined, so detailed and and beautiful kind of food.
(08:22):
But actually the whole atmosphere and the setting and
as well, I think the the people there are there is quite rough
in a way and and a little bit brutal in a sense.
So why I sort of like describe that is because this whole
experience or brought me sort oflike this very eye opening.
(08:42):
And I was bidden to, I have to really try to talk about this,
this, this, this, this type of kitchens, these, this way to go
about it. I also want to work in different
kitchens. I ended up finding my way up to
roughly 9 different Japanese restaurants.
And my excuse were, well, I'll, I'll work for basically nothing
(09:05):
and free, but then also I'll take photos and one day I'll
publish a book about it, not knowing that I would actually be
able to get to publish a book about it.
But but I got a chance. And then my three months ended
up being, you know, a couple of years touring around from
everything from tree * Kaiseki and Kyoto to small Lisa Kaya
(09:25):
pups to soba to all, all types of things.
And then I documented my work and the atmosphere and the whole
kind of things with with taking photos myself and writing and
journal and and that was that was sort of the that the next
stage. And and I did get to actually
publicize the book in Denmark. Barbie Sabi.
(09:48):
It's not in friend anymore. And then once I published it, I
sort of went on to my new project versus trying to do
something with it. But amazing journey.
And again, totally unplanned, unexpected, just one thing
leading to another, which I think for a lot of people and
and and certainly in my case is is often the aspect.
(10:08):
I mean, there's already there's already signs of you like from
what you do now is like I say, far from restaurant industry,
but I think already you were like pivoting of sorts of like
finding this opportunity of journaling, getting more into,
say, communicating that side of the kitchen.
So I think there's already signsof like, you know, doing
something which is out-of-the-box because of course
one size doesn't fit all, especially in a context where
(10:30):
you grew up in Denmark, studied in Denmark, but practically
trained in in China. That one of the uses opportunity
to lead you into a question about kitchen culture.
Like what sort of kitchen culture do you see in all these,
all these kitchens? Because I remember when I was
back when 2022 towards the end when we were, when I was in
Norma and we were planning to goto Japan, which later got
(10:50):
delayed to 2023 when I was not there anymore.
I remember like we had the R&D team go to, to Kyoto first, do a
study with Thomas and everybody else.
And I remember Thomas specifically came back and
gathered us, the employees, and gave us like a picture that you,
when you go there, you'll be working with Japanese staff.
And they don't work like the kitchens out here.
They don't understand why would you run or why would you have
(11:11):
pressure. They don't understand rush.
They don't. Yeah, the processing of things
is slow. And now that I see it with my
company right now, I've been three Times Now for other sort
of food system deals and also rhythm of business.
Everything has a very different pace and a very different way of
doing things. So how did you see that the
culture, the kitchen culture specifically?
(11:32):
Yeah, I you're absolutely right.It is very different and and I
think of course I'll eaten different kitchens too in the
same country can have very different kitchen cultures and
and, and always some pros and cons, but Japan for sure quite
different. And also, again, I would also
say which with some pros and cons, I think first of all,
there is a, there is a Japanese culture in itself and a way of
(11:56):
sort of going around things thatof course carried into the
kitchen, which allow for a totally different way of really
focusing, perfecting fine tuning, which is obviously also
leading to the very exquisite food.
And especially doing something like that when it's so simple,
right? So perfecting spending years and
(12:17):
honing one craft where these days even even chefs or cooks
and things like that, you know, they just want to move on up or
to the next thing and things like that.
So they really embody that. And I think both that they
embodied that. It also brings a different calm
to the kitchen because they knowthis is what I'm doing, this is
what I'm want to keep kind of doing and at peace with that.
(12:41):
Now it's very heroically based. Now kitchen is always kind of
quite heroically based, but I would say in Japan is extremely,
it's even to the fact that, you know, they don't hide up the
shoes. I guess it's similar even to the
height of the chef, you know, the height of the shoes.
So right. So the Yoda Choda, the head chef
would work on quite high stilts almost traditionally.
(13:02):
So, so that aspect of that and that is quite strong.
And then there's a very predefined way that you have to
behave or what you can and cannot say in different ranks.
So my first day in Kyoto, my first walk with wonder could
speak a little bit of English. And you're taking me down to
meet the main head chef. He he, he told me that in in
(13:25):
Tokyo, it's a little bit more. OK, everybody can be their own
personality. But in Kyoto you are the the
same basically, which was a was a quite unexpected sort of
conversation to have. And now and the other thing is,
I guess we all hear about him screaming and throwing things in
different kitchen in Japan. It's still quite common to hit.
(13:47):
And I've seen that whether that is like backhand and even to the
point of seeing when the the head chef is too high in the
owner and a different aspect andhave to bend down to make sure
that it can land properly. All of that is of course not OK,
but it's just to sort of paintedthe picture.
It's while in the same time extremely supportive.
You are such a caring team. You also really take rest in
(14:12):
between and you, you of course sit down with a meal and all
that sort of thing. So mixed, very mixed aspect of
some totally different. Yeah, right.
I mean, I think for me, like whatever part of Japan I've seen
all these different trips, it's always for me personally, it's
like a culture I admire and I love the way they do things.
But at the same time, it's not for me personally.
(14:34):
It's not aspirational for me. I feel the way I am, the sense
of hyper energy I have, of hyperactivity.
I think I would like suffocate in that kind of an environment
where I would be like, you're bound to.
And I think there's a good part of it, which is you end up
perfecting something because it's all you do all your life.
Great. But I think it's, for me, it's a
culture which I can admire from far.
(14:54):
But yeah, immersing myself into it for like an extended period
is kind of in my, in my head toxic.
Because I think it's also the based on the culture you've
grown up in, where like for me, growing up in India, everything
is fast. It's like survival of the
fittest. Only the fittest survives.
There's competitions and queues for everything because of the
population. So for me, Japan is like the
other. Yeah.
(15:15):
It's like a dying, dying population.
So in that sense, yeah. But I think there's still like a
good takeaways from and we've seen that.
I think that's why we see in thekitchens mostly a lot of
Japanese techniques applied, sayin pastry or things like that,
because that's again, a craft which requires a lot of
measurements and precision and and thinking things like that,
Right. So yeah, from there then what
happens? So you do the book, you, I
(15:36):
think, come back to Denmark then, and what's your next
interaction? With exactly right so then I
start to get a taste for sort ofcreating concepts mainly first
in the food service kind of caferestaurant is kind of concepts.
So that's OK. As a fugitive chef now, I start
definitely slowly walking away from just there.
And I was very much bitten by the aspect of sort of this that
(16:00):
well, of course, I think most get into astronomy because the
creativity of food, flavors, ingredients, what you can create
our then put that more on a commercial aspect and sort of
crafting concept and the business around and all that.
I think it even just made it even more multidimensional and I
thought that was really fascinating.
(16:21):
And then of course also the scalability of it.
You can create something that then, you know, can impact
again, a little bit more people because you can sort of
duplicate it versus if you are in one kitchen, you have those
four wall, 4 walls of seeds, right?
So different aspects of, of scale, different way of working
(16:42):
with the with, with, with, with not just as a menu, but
everything around it in terms ofcreating a concept.
And so I really like that. And the first I sort of held
with was something called smushy.
So Danish open face sandwich, but then brought into the sign
style of, of, of sushi, not mixing flavors and stuff, but
(17:03):
just refining the way you eat and experience it.
And we also did a book and finally enough, we opened that
in Denmark and we actually went and opened it in Japan.
We also opened it in China. Very different stories.
And then I did a couple of thosetypes of, of, of concepts while
finally getting actually to weigh in in in the US.
(17:28):
And from there it was sort of the next ladder of, of food
service starting as director of food for a fast cashew company
out of Chicago, but in multiple different states.
I think there were roughly 3040 stores and 400 employees.
And then now that'll again just increase the the the scale, the
(17:51):
complexity sort of requirements to finger around food, even to
the point of like the sourcing of the ingredients, working with
contract manufacturers that is making different specialized
components or products of yours to think, you know, where can
you get most value of impact from from resources from in in
team labor and also knowing that, of course, the team itself
(18:13):
is not like trained culinary people.
So again, as if interesting challenge that just opens up
that I again wasn't wasn't awareof to a degree before I start
doing it. And I mean, what you mentioned,
it was very super interesting for me the yeah, sort of fusion
kind of an entrepreneurial idea you had with Japanese and Danish
(18:35):
culture. But things like that, when you
started or before taking up the challenge of the the, the
ventures you've done in the States, you know, before we go
on to chew, which is a very exciting part for me.
What you, what you made it happen there.
But before this, any sort of education into business or
design thinking or like how did,was it supernatural for you?
Did you have mentors who guided you on this way or how did you
(18:56):
end up? Because for me, I think the
people listening to this are again, like, I want them to
relate with you as much as possible.
So coming with calorie education, working in
restaurants, how do you make that pivot?
Yeah, Yeah, I know. That's actually it's things I
think about now. And so first of all, I didn't
take any additional degrees or things like that.
So everything has been just self-taught learned along the
way. To be honest, I wish I had, and
(19:18):
I think if I had online type schools or even that sort of
ability to do different things maybe been as broadly
understood, then, then, then, then I maybe I would have.
Because I think if I did some kind of MBA on the side or some
other kind of aspect of it, I think it would only just have
helped me far better. I can only frankly recommend
(19:40):
things like that because you're going to of course improve the
one's own work, but of course also just it would open up the
ability for certain type of position, certain types of roles
quite differently now. Yeah, I was lucky and in the
sense of both, I come from very entrepreneurial families, from
my grandparents to my mother to my father.
(20:02):
I think I it was just in a way just realized.
I thought that was actually whatyou did.
If you you want to do work, you have to go and create the kind
of work. So everywhere around me as only
in in growing up and family and even how that has influenced my
own upbringing has been entrepreneurship and doing
stuff. So that way that of course helps
(20:26):
then fantastic, of course mentors people to work with
along the way and learn from thefood services did in, in in the
US, the board of people there massively talented people that
have done major companies and and within the food industry,
both in McDonald's, Chipotle andCredit Manchere and a bunch of
different things. So great exposure and of course,
(20:48):
taking off as much as possible. So yes, I wish I had done more
even like now I think, you know,too busy with different things
and and going away. But but and of course, never too
late. But the more you can sort of lay
on to it, I think it's definitely it helps open up
opportunities for sure. Well, I think it sounds super
interesting the approach you've taken.
(21:09):
I think, I think that doesn't look some sometimes what I think
of myself because I did not go to a fancy culinary school, for
example, in my case. And then I think because I did
not go, because I neither had the time nor the economics nor
the, the country was in the, northe right moment for me to be
there. I am kind of happy I took the
route route I took because when I see now students coming out of
culinary school, I think they miss what I had.
(21:30):
At the same time, I would have been grateful to have some of
what culinary schools teach. You know, I think that's really
applicable in your your case also because now recently I've
been very interested into after talking to you and more people
like like you in the, in the industry.
I'm yeah, reading business cultures, how tech field works,
for example, in the states with thewhole.com uprise and the
crash. And I think food is going
through similar instances of sorts.
(21:51):
If you look at like direct examples.
And many of them say, for example, that Business School
students kept keep like the MVP is getting improved and improved
and improved and they never really touch the user like it's,
it's never tested in real context.
And they're like making just improvements.
And that's, again, one fault with people who come out of
business schools because you're just in a very cushioned
environment. So I think with what you did,
(22:13):
you hit the ground running and then just kept on growing.
But yeah. That's, that's exactly, you
know, that's inherent into people in the only way to trial
and error is to physically trialand error, right?
I think that is also something Ishould learn, especially working
with, with food scientists or other things, which takes a very
different approach. And it's like, it's actually,
it's a stark contrast. Yeah, that's what I mean.
(22:35):
Always I try to the idea that spot cast was born because I was
stuck in this point where I was like, I don't want to work in
restaurants anymore, at least for now.
And so I might have to study, which is why I asked you the
question like, did you study? So I think for me, more examples
like you and myself are out of proof that there are skills that
we might not have documents to support, but they are equally
(22:55):
relevant. And as you say, if you somebody
can afford to do CNNB on the side or, or, or a MOOC about
some business aspect while testing it out with real people
like you were doing, I think would be, it could be a great,
great plus. And I think moving on from
there. So there we are.
We are with your story in the States right now.
I'm very excited to know about you because I have like been
(23:16):
following it, reading about it. Colleagues of mine have
travelled to Boston, met Adam and the team and seen what's
happening. Really.
OK. Yeah.
So we we are very much in touch.We had interns working in Chu at
one point, and I met Adam in, this was in Switzerland two
years ago at the Climate Hack and heard about fast food, what
he's doing with that. And then, yeah, he's super
active with the community, becoming a try doing a
(23:37):
triathlon. To.
Support that. So tell us about tell us about
like, I'm I'm very interested toknow how does an idea like to
take birth and what happens withit?
Crazy journey without a doubt. So I knew Adam from we worked
together in in Shanghai. So we actually renew each other
way back when. And he actually he was doing a
(24:00):
he was in the US, he was doing achocolate company and then and
the first other job I took with as a food service in this chain
chain. It was an introduction that he
gave to to one of the board members.
And then we start checking it and then he contacts me at some
point and saying, Hey, you know,I'm thinking start food, a food
studio, food innovation lab. Not really kind of knowing what
(24:23):
even what that is. I don't think you even know.
But it sounded fun and cool. Yeah.
We started chatting. I was in Chicago, he was in
Boston when there. And then basically we just, OK,
yeah, let's do it. And our first part I, we didn't,
(24:43):
we did not know what it was going to become or exactly what
it's going to be. But doing food innovation
development, kind of really taking the culinary principle,
merging with science. That was sort of like the
different aspects. But first part was actually a
range of restaurants and different things, concepts or
more in the food service area onthe West Coast.
(25:06):
But then from there it went quickly into CPG or fast moving
consumer goods land. I think that can probably say,
you know, as the first customersand like Kellogg's, right?
So it went from from food service to suddenly big food
type area. And it was first of all, it was
(25:26):
just me and him to begin with the home kitchen, but then
quickly just a first kind of lab, which in the beginning just
looked like a little restaurant with a little kitchen over there
in the corner. Again, not knowing actually what
we were about to build. And in little by little, we, we
sort of went along, We got some food scientists there on board
(25:48):
starting during these different projects.
And it really took off because the idea and especially Adam,
which is, is, is definitely visionary and an amazing sort of
sales in terms of pushing boundaries and, and, and, and
trying to approach things and innovation.
I for me is more making it happen, right?
(26:11):
She might go out selling eggs and then come, hey, we have to
like, how are we going to do that faster?
And then it was me and the team,whatever we kind of needed to go
after, OK, what could it become?And then bring it to life,
right. That was sort of the general way
was kind of ended up being carved up, but little by little
(26:31):
it was it was a very interestingpoint in time because big foods
they might have the way innovation is done there is
typically like food scientists, some just do some project
engineers and things like that and then a marketed team.
So you have a marketing team where you have this kind of very
deep R&D technical team sort of polar opposites and way of
(26:51):
thinking and consumer all that. And so the magazine would draw
up a concept and then tell the and the team now make this and
they will come back with something that was quite a
different. And then somewhere in the
organization, then maybe there will be a corporate chef
somewhere stuck over in a cornercoming with A twist to a lemon
puppy muffin something whatever.So the aspect of really merging
(27:16):
an approach with, with, with culinary people and, and food
scientists, not just sort of less, OK, you do flavor and you
do now stability and and scale up, but actually really making
them work side by side was quitenovel suddenly back then, and
maybe I was in different ways degrees now.
(27:36):
So you take the, the aspects of,of, of culinary people, chefs in
terms of the speed, the, you know, trial and error, bringing
things to life, to taste, to, tolearn to explore, to take these
maybe very niche ideas in whether it's flavor, but even
sort of like form, texture and, and elements.
And, and marrying that with, youknow, some that is really
(27:59):
thinking about the scientific aspect or process aspect of it.
And then, of course, you can, you can have the marketing and
the creating and the consumer, all that.
And then doing that enable just innovation development in a
whole different way in terms of speed and the output.
So that was really the, the, theformula that we, we started the
(28:20):
building and perfecting and, andreally trying to process
optimize over the years and, andcrazy, right.
So we from from our home kitchento in the first lab and then as
we start out at the restaurant, but it quickly turned into
different bays, areas, differentsort of functions that we would
do different things. Equipment kept rolling in.
(28:41):
We grew, you know, out of the seams in terms of size of people
there build a far bigger lab, maybe too big, but it was
definitely only a beautiful and and and get to roughly 4040
employees at the time or the highest thing in working with
pretty much all the major Fortune 500 companies in in CPG
(29:07):
and how old types of categories.Like, how do you convince?
Like, I mean, I completely agreewith what you said.
What do you say? Because what also we see in here
in the European context is mostly the chef enters when say
a cream cheese company has made the cream cheese and then, OK,
make me applications of this to be able to make a commercial
brochure to sell it. So when you enter this market
and say pitch to, I don't know, giants like Kellogg's, what's
(29:28):
your approach like for people listening to this?
Like, why do you think as a chef, somebody who's listening
to this should think that they can contribute to, say, an
innovation to say, an FMCG product, which is a different
ball game altogether? Well, first of all,
fundamentally it's old food, right?
So why? Why not, right.
Old food based upon ingredients going through a process of being
(29:50):
created Now, OK, very different dynamics has to be upheld to to
do it on a very large scale, which for some is super exciting
for me. Like perfecting something you
can put on a scale and just do tons and tons and getting out
and impacting an excitement to amassive amount of people.
While in the same time, if you're doing that more
(30:11):
nutritious, more sustainably in terms of ingredients again, then
you're actually creating real change.
And especially also if you're working with big foods, which
all of them have some pretty badproducts amongst them.
But you, you're making what perhaps could be seen as an
incremental change, but because of the scale is actually
(30:31):
massive, right, then that's really exciting.
So now for some that's, that canbe very exciting and some it's
not and that's completely fine. The other, I think key aspects,
so if you are drawn to to that aspect of scale and development,
because it's, it is a lot of riches development and fine
tuning and tweaking and and a lot of different things that has
(30:54):
to be sort of fall off with for some it's exciting and Father 1
is just nauseating. I have to do ADOE of 36 and
different formulas where I twistthe different degrees of fat and
flour and texture systems. And then again, no, let me just
kind of cook with some fresh ingredients, right?
And so very different aspect of that.
(31:15):
And that's completely fine. So if you're drawn to that.
And then the other thing, we also definitely came to learn
phenomenal dolty. There is a way to process
thinking that is that is of course really important to
either embrace to learn or already kind of have sort of
inherent in order to really kindof enjoy and do it well, right?
(31:36):
So it's not for everybody, but for the ones that is 4, so much
that can be done. Yeah, no, it was super
interesting. I mean, actually for as a matter
of fact, this morning I was in aopen first lecture, then an open
table discussion with Alejandro Marabi.
He's like the open innovation head of PepsiCo.
And we were talking with him about like how the students that
we have in the masters were verymuch like reasonably demonizing
(31:58):
FMCG. And then he was explaining how
much ever good you want to do asa, say, A2 Michelin star chef
and defending messages which aregreat and noble.
In the end, you're only accessible to a very few select
amount of people, whereas 1 billion people open a Lays or a
Doritos packet every days. The impact of big.
So I mean, I think people who are chefs especially who want to
(32:18):
yeah, I think for whom the purpose of the purpose of their
career can be say putting plate on the food and at a humble bar
or then making larger impacts. I think it's the only way to
correct course correct the system is to yeah, look at them
as look at these bigger brands as kind of alliances like the
biggest acquisition which has happened now with the Poppy on
(32:40):
how they've taken that into their.
So that's again tapping into a whole white space of consumers
of functional drinks. Absolutely.
And then I would also say to anybody who may be listening
there and then the culinary kindof like it's not just flavor,
right? Flavor is of course massively
important and is a big challengein itself, but there's so many
(33:02):
other dimensions that culinary people can and should bring.
Should not just be be as in terms of finding a flavor
variant. Yeah, I think the experience, I
mean, I don't know opening a packet or texture or things that
we do. And I think many of us as chefs,
the things we learn are the things we end up doing because
of depends on the scale of restaurant, how much margin it
(33:22):
has to spend on R and DI think scaling up many of these things
could be, I think really futuristic solutions on.
I think chefs do have many tools, which on some level on
food science level industry has some answers to it.
But then again, it doesn't know how to make give the human
component to those answers that I want to want to respond to.
So I think yeah, super, super interesting to to see the the
(33:45):
story of, of Chew. So many tough lessons and so
many great successes, but so many tough lessons.
So as you kind of do, yeah, whenyou go into it, like really read
up on it. And in that sense, in terms
going back in terms of medication or other things,
(34:05):
there's amazing books on it, butalso so many different things
because it is a whole different beast.
And and it can be quite, quite painful if you have major
failures. Yeah, I mean, I think I was one
of the episode of the podcast I was mentioning with the chef as
well that I think of all the restaurants I've worked, all the
carriers I've done. I think the book of how to not
(34:27):
do things is always, for me bigger than how to do things.
And I think that sets then a platform, you know, and that
gives me the best opportunity topivot into where I was heading
right now for you to come back home.
Now this new venture, Neutromami.
Yeah. Yeah, I would not indulge more
in like things that you took from your previous previous
chapter. But then how does this
transition happen? Was it a call back to home or or
(34:49):
what brought you back into this now?
Yeah. And well, yeah.
So in a way, after 10 years in the US and then actually back to
Japan a little bit. But then while tinkering on
this, yeah, I wanted to get backto Europe that's sort of more
geographic and and and kids, butalso I think it was Europe is
good opportunities of doing an impact.
(35:09):
But more importantly in what this company is about neutral
mommy, which is very much all based upon the years in, in, in
product development and innovation.
And, and that is to fundamentally go back to, to the
ingredients. And I think all like, again, as
old cooks and chefs kind of know, right, your food is only
as good as your ingredients. And I'd say is same is true as,
(35:33):
as, as products, let's say consumer products and way the
industry in, in terms of it's, it's a very different way of
creating food, of course, for, for, for big scale.
And here you're working with allthese different ingredients,
doing one different function and, and everything is highly
kind of segmented. And that's of course, could be
(35:54):
very customizable, but in the same time, it's also extremely
challenging in terms of buildingyour food.
You have to work on the texture system, the flavor system, what
kind of nutrition profile and then you need what kind of
claims you need to go after and what kind of shelf life and
what's the process? And, and then you end up with
the situation that we see most food in today because you as a
(36:17):
developer, you add an ingredient, something else goes
a little bit bad. And then you have to, let's say
you add a protein, Then now you need to mask the bitterness of
that. Oh, then you're adding that and,
and then now you want to improvethe nutrition and you add that,
but then the texture goes out ofwagon and you have to work on
texture. So just this endless puzzle and
(36:37):
you always end up in some kind of compromise.
It does this really how it feelsand a lot of work.
So whether the compromise is on the taste, texture or nutrition,
the ingredient line being very long or the clean label aspect
of it, or anything that is associated with what is becoming
a more known term in terms of ultra processed food, which now
that's a whole lot of topic in itself.
(37:00):
It's, it's, it just felt like I've been doing, you know, clean
product development for for manydifferent years, but it feels
like there's really a new needs to take to the approach to the
ingredients itself. And of course, also to bring a
little bit of that culinary aspect of in that, because when
we're cooking food, the things are actually doing different,
(37:20):
different function in one ingredients, not just like I've
extrapolated all these differentfunction and then combined in a,
in a, in a mixture. So going after basically
multifunctional ingredients thatyou can, you know, do more with
less so you can realize, you know, a better foundation of
food that is also more wholesome, gives, you know,
taste properties, give texture properties, give nutrition
(37:43):
properties. That was really sort of the,
the, the mission inspiration into building this company,
really going after the complexity, the excessive use of
additives that we see in our food system, trying to deliver
something that is far more wholesome, clean label, but of
course still super tasty and, and all the properties that we
want. And then maybe also definitely
(38:04):
not maybe, but as a buy effect, let's almost sell it like that.
All based ingredients. So, so that's, that's the,
that's what we're doing. And of course, we're doing that
through our fermentation. And so for, for a layman
thinking about neutral Mommy as a company, I'm I'm thinking of
like retail segment product, like a processed product company
or is it an ingredient company for B2B business where what is
(38:26):
what is new mommy for? Yeah, I forgot that.
So ingredients B to B into manufacturers and away going the
whole way back and and doing innovation on the ingredient,
which sounds I guess could soundextremely boring as it comes to
fingers from a culinary perspective.
But but I think it's widely exciting because it also enabled
(38:49):
in the innovation itself off that food products and the way
you go around building it and creating it to be quite
different. But yes, we sell an ingredient.
It looks like a powder. It looks quite ordinary, but
then to enable a new type of theproducts.
Yeah, OK, super interesting. And how how do you see?
I mean, you mentioned clean label, you mentioned ultra
processed in terms like that, which I think are I think when I
(39:13):
first started hearing them, it was like, oh, great, people
care. People are interested in what
they're putting in their bodies and conscious about it to now
where I sometimes get scared when I'm seeing people
considering like putting everything into one box, like
everything that has an E is bad.Where do you see yourself in
that debate? You know, because I have, I have
heard like sensory scientists saying that if I can break, get
down a strawberry and get down to the polymer and then start
(39:35):
from not a strawberry and come down to the same kind of flavor,
is it right? Is it wrong?
So debates like these, where do you as a company stand which is
using something as traditional as fermentation, you know?
So yeah, no it is widely complexand just my last week was was a
lot of this topic. I was one.
I was attending a webinar for Non UPF Verified which is a new
(39:55):
certification that is going to be launched in the US built by
the same organization as do non-GMO Verified and.
Just to put in perspective, I'vedone so many non-GMO verified
products, even things that makesupon ingredients that has never
been associated with to not to be modified sodas in a way no
point, but it became a necessaryto communicate to consumer the
(40:17):
the health aspect of it. non-GMOround represents 40 billion in
annual U.S. dollar sales. So a major counterpart and in
order doing non new PF and then I was sending a talk by 4
different people that come hang university all coming with a
very different aspect and and focus on it.
So I think where we are right now is everywhere and nowhere
(40:41):
and everybody's running in in different directions.
That's just sure, but I think I think that's OK.
I think the other kind of interesting stats understand you
know, the last 90% of of of all papers around UPF has been
published in the last was 445 years, right.
So it's a massive momentum that is starting on this.
But of course it is a massive complex area and you cannot, you
(41:05):
cannot just throw it everything in, in one general
classification. Now that's the hot debate
because that's the Nova classification of just these 4°.
I think Nova is fantastic in terms of what it has brought to
the light and switching. It's not just nutrition or it's
not nutrition, it's process thatis is the part.
(41:26):
But again, I think there is nuance and more technical
understanding to be done. So little by little, I think all
these things would happen and we're going to see different
degrees, different ways to responding into it.
Regulatory is doing different things.
They're responding to UPF, but again, through more nutrition
aspect of it. If they look like AU kit, they
do high fat, salt, sugar kind ofregulations.
(41:47):
Now that is pretty strong. That forces you to to remodify
in a lot and and in a sense alsobecomes less UPF actually.
So, so different ways to respondto it.
And then science would would, would keep doing different
things, but you can start to maybe carve out, OK, this
specific class of ingredients, like take the the the very big
(42:10):
ones, like the artificial red colour.
That's bad. So but, but more and more we, we
should be able to do that. But I think from a consumer
perspective, in this confusion and complexity, once there is an
opportunity to declassify something as ultra process or
market is not ultra processed, then that's of course what we
(42:33):
will be chosen over something else.
In most contexts of whole food for any things that is in remain
in indulgence guilty kind of treat.
I think most consumers, everybody knows soda as a soda
or chips or chips. There would be healthier version
of it, but there will also be the candy and the different
stuffs and all that. So I think we'll see consumers
shopping quite differently depending on the types of food.
(42:59):
And then secondly, we would see a divide of, of these different
types of products being sort of,OK, there's some, well, this is
it what it is and cheap, convenient and it's a treat,
whatever then OK. But the things that we actually
should be nourishing from needs to be better.
And this is also, of course, what what drives me and us is,
is the things that we're supposed to be nourished by.
(43:22):
We need to be nourished by nutritionally but also by the
types of ingredients going in there.
I could obviously quite a lot of.
Definitely. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, I
think to summarize it, I think the right source, yeah, the
processing source where it starts from has to be pure
because again, there's so much like all the claims that you
(43:44):
mentioned. And again, this is Europe you're
talking about. For example, I've heard in in
Mexico, you have all the Doritosor whatever chips have like a
massive black sticker saying high in sodium.
Ecuador has like a traffic lightpolicy on all the Pepsi, like
the Coke 0 somehow without a traffic light.
So it's apparently the best drink you can have.
And then again, in Europe we have something with Nutri score,
which is again something very voluntary.
(44:05):
People have adopted. There's been recent years claims
against it. The calculation is apparently
not as transparent as it seems, which brings down to like, you
know, yeah, having the consumer sort of lost.
I've also heard we had a studenttoday who raised the hand and
said, you know, she heard a podcast somewhere that why don't
foods which are not good for youhave something like the
cigarette packets, you know thisis going to kill.
(44:28):
You. Yeah, exactly.
And then we had the sensory scientists respond that, you
know, at one point, the person who smokes cigarette, that
sensory doesn't work anymore, that that claim is not working
anymore because you're so you'reso used to it.
I think so, yeah. I think the regulatory bodies,
as you said, have to have to do due diligence and then again,
non corporate like the foundations, public private
foundations, which are neutral have to have to somehow moderate
(44:50):
this and starting a business like neutral mommy, which is
which is which is young and making a new proposition.
How do you see yourself with thenews that we're hearing about
the segment? You know, with I mean, of course
you would know how beyond is going in the US stock market and
the early predictions coming outand and again, the response,
sadly, the not knowing, I think in the uncertainty why it what
(45:10):
happened happened? Is it because we assumed the
early adopters would forever stick with it?
Did we miscalculate it's such a big market?
Or did we just isolate the problem so much that doesn't
become relevant anymore? Where do you see these things?
Yeah, I know. And that's so first of all, we
are using plants. We are taking the plants of
course ingredients very wholesome, simple, but we are
(45:32):
not just OK plant based vegan products at all.
We really more going after the middle type areas where hey, we
can make this far less animal based ingredients where it would
be dairy cream butters. We can lower the, the, the
animal protein. And of course also in things
where well, hey, we can make actually a whole plant based
type something even better or cleaner.
(45:54):
And we of course also look to toto to definitely do that.
So we don't see it. So this and that the plant based
category itself, which has been really true to Ringer.
Now, of course there is a market, but it's not as big as
everybody forecasted. And there's actually just too
many players even just on the fields are a lot is is is of
(46:14):
course really hurting now. It's going to continue to grow,
but I also think more important is going to really evolve into
something that is not necessarily just the imitations,
but but being something in its own identity, which I think is
also what really needs to happenas consumers.
Again, we're not going to turn everybody vegan.
It's not going to happen, but we're going to need to eat more
(46:34):
plant centric. I think that's that's clear.
So having options that just can be used.
I think the rise of tofu in a, in a even a way in different
areas shows the aspect of, you know, hey, we can have different
solutions or not just as chicken, pork or beef options or
fish, right? And the main thing I think the
(46:54):
biggest is draw that has also been, of course, on a lot of
these plant based things is theyare highly associated with UPF
going back to that aspect, because most of them and beyond
and stuff like there's some serious things that has gone
into it. While nutritionally, you can
certainly shoot a lot of far better values.
So you're fighting a consumer perception and maybe you will
(47:17):
also there's there's a fighting in terms of some actualities and
maybe a bit too much processes in some circumstances.
There is a need for a major refresh all around conceptually,
the creativity. And I think that's an exciting
time for everybody jumping into this area to, to create new
innovation. But I think there's also word
opportunities of doing differentingredients to unlock this.
(47:38):
And so for me, I'm excited, although you have to fight the,
the, the standard perception there is in plan based or, or
things like that. I talked with investors that
said, we don't believe in plan based any longer.
So we don't believe in plans anylonger.
Like is this just going to go away?
So that's that's. Understandable.
(48:01):
And like when you look at your competition of sorts, you know,
like the kind of market, I mean,in your case you're hybrid, so
you are kind of making your space within within a space.
But do you think, I mean, it's still still a young market, as
you said, there are too many players out there.
But also one claim that I've heard is that the governments or
the regulations are not very fair to plant based because it's
not that it's expensive, it's just that the amount of
(48:22):
subsidies the other side has makes it way cheaper to be able
to compete. So do you think in that sense
governments need to do enough tomake somehow half price parity
where the choice is not money but just better value or, or for
everybody's context, what's better?
Yeah, no, I, it's, it's, it's, it's insane and and no
government is not is definitely not doing enough.
(48:44):
And we're having in Denmark, we had this big tree pot where I
was about to, to improve all those aspect and put the tax and
beef right, which is a laughablelevel.
And actually in many ways just log us more into insensitives
for, to give better pace and, and, and, and circumstances for,
for big animal production. So short answer, definitely
(49:07):
government is not doing enough. And if you were to sort of, if
you were to do a startup and this, this was a brand new idea,
we're going to do beef as, as a startup and then go out and sell
it. You know, the cost of that is
astronomical. And so, so without a doubt, and
it is far, far outweighs what actually the cost of, of plants
(49:28):
and self, which is, which is in a also in a commodity area.
But because what you happen to have to, to, to do with it and
makes it very expensive. It's really hard.
I wish I had a perfect answer. I think everybody has to to, to
work and impact different thingsin old ways.
And I think we'll we'll get to anew, hopefully a new status quo
on. It and shifting to more positive
(49:48):
things, you know, talking about like let's let's let's go back
to neutral mommy for somebody listening to this, I think you
explain much very well the business proposition, but I
would be also interested in whatfuture you're looking at, like
what kind of projections you're doing for yourself in this.
What kind of problems are you answering to?
But more than that, I would liketo know what kind of profiles
are you looking for? Because I know, for example,
Nabila, somebody I know who was on this podcast before is part
(50:10):
of that part of the organization.
So what other kind of profiles do you do you look for for a
start up like this? Yeah.
Well we have more ambition and and drive than than is maybe
good. So we want to we want to do a
lot of stuff and and there's particularly this, this, this
cross fermentations that that weare applying and building that
(50:30):
platform in terms of layering different effects through one
whole food medium. And then in parallel what is the
solutions that we really see is necessary in the market?
What is the different combination of effects and
functionality that we really think makes a big change and
solving key problems, whether it's problems for consumer, the
(50:50):
problems for retailers or manufacturers, taking all that
in and there again within the sweet and savory and old foods
is massive. Then take it even further into
sort of functional health space,Even more opportunities to go a
whole newer way around functional health, again through
a whole food medium by having different key functions in, in
(51:14):
one versus again, where functional nutrition generally
is again, different extrapolation or synthetic
elements kind of composed. I think there's a there's a new
opportunities to go about that too as well.
So too much ambition and but we also have to focus on on
creating some results right here, right now.
And then that's what we're doing.
So of course, we need to grow this this team well over time.
(51:36):
And I've been super fortunate with the team role Rabbit now
including Nabila. We will we would have to it is
because we broaden on different functionalities.
So Nebula that's now we're in the flavor and sensory
department, which is massive part.
We have Chu Chu, which is more the fermentation and process and
interactions of that. And we have Jacob, which is more
(51:58):
culinary applications because wehave to take one hour ingredient
into more innovation and solutions and how to sort of use
and apply that in the best way. We need to go next probably
deeper around texture propertiesbecause every texture properties
are so widely different, whetherit's like a fat texture
properties or it's like a gelling properties.
(52:18):
So texture is a function area we're going to be.
We also have to do more culinaryin terms of probably gastro
science was I think it's a fantastic degree.
That is definitely something we would look on our radar to, to
find the right person to to comein and mix also data because
what we do can be complex. We have to be very smart about
(52:39):
how we go about it, trial and error, yes, but it has to be as
an intelligent as possible. So we have to leverage the tools
that are, you know, more and more frequently available and
and generate data and partnerships that we can
accelerate the development. So we'll also look for people
that is more data, technically inclined individuals, yeah.
Super interesting, you know, whowould who would think a chef who
(53:02):
started off in a in a school in in Denmark and then go to China,
Japan, would be then scouting for for a team like this?
You know, but that's the beauty.I think of the possibility chefs
have showed of shown to the to the industry that you know what
we're going to get into this andstructure it the way we will
take the good for what is there and we'll bring what we've
learned from our past. So I think to conclude this
talk, I would like you to highlight like sitting now at
(53:23):
this point where you where you run a company like neutral and
all that you've told us before what parts of your chef passed
are the ones that you hold on toright now and the ones that give
you the vision to be able to lead in what you do today.
And a follow up to that, what would you advise people who are
in the restaurant industry who have maybe ideas like you maybe
who are at the point you were when you left it?
(53:45):
So yeah, two sided question on what do you bring from there?
What do you what do you suggest somebody?
So I think first of all, food isI think one of the most personal
thing you can almost create and sell because it is a thing that,
you know, other people put inside their body like and to
give many different emotions andnourishment.
(54:06):
So it is, it's a, it's a concept.
And I think culinary people or from a culinary background
understand that emotion on part quite well.
And that is super important. I think it's super important
right now, especially as we lookto think about our food systems
and how we go about what the ingredients and the food itself
and all that. So that emotion and part that
emotional anger I keep kind of bringing in.
(54:29):
And I think that should that should really be valued, I think
for for everybody. And then the other is, is I
think in in a kitchen, you, you create, you do, you take actions
and you learn by doing. So that is definitely also what
has got me through the whole kind of journey now.
And also now, especially in a startup is about taking action,
(54:49):
learn, do, evolve, fail, try something else.
Those are really, really, reallygood skills to have, I think,
and embracing those. Great Frederick, any advice for
the future? Any advice for people you're
listening to you. And well, just like I think your
mission food is so much more than of course, a restaurant or
(55:10):
dish or things like that is it is so interconnected in some
different ways. So there's so many different
opportunities. And I think education in terms
of laying on to food in itself is a is a massive advantage,
especially especially now. So I can I think I can only
underline that taking on these axillary maybe doesn't even make
sense. Types of learning thing would be
(55:33):
a super helpful. That's been, that's been a great
chat. Frederick, honestly, I mean, I
knew about you through what I'veread, what I've heard from
industry peers. Yeah, this, I think this podcast
is also for me a great opportunity personally, apart
from all the people listening, dive into people like you.
And it's every time, I think every conversation ends with
being just struck by if you wouldn't told your story like
(55:53):
this, I wouldn't have known thatyou were a chef before, you
know. So first of all, like I would
close by saying thanks a lot forparticipating, for sharing us
with your with us your story. And yeah, it's been a pleasure.
No, thank you. Thank you for having me, for
crying and love your mission, what you're doing here.
Super, super good. I wish I had that when I was
younger, frankly. Thank you so much.
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