December 16, 2025 • 51 mins
In this episode, Furqan speaks with Lorenzo Tirelli — R&D Manager at Reduced (Copenhagen), a food tech company transforming upcycled ingredients into deeply flavorful, additive-free fermented broths using koji.Lorenzo’s path is anything but linear. He dropped out of pharmaceutical chemistry in Rome, trained in kitchens across Italy, Uruguay, and France, worked in Noma’s fermentation lab, earned a Master’s in Food Innovation & Health in Copenhagen — and now leads R&D at a venture-backed food tech scale-up.We talk about:• Leaving science for kitchens — and returning to science through food• Early formative cooking experiences, from fire-based cooking in Uruguay to farm-to-table projects in Rome• What actually happens inside Noma’s fermentation lab• Why fermentation is both craft and controlled science• How upcycled supply chains really work at scale• What chefs lose — and gain — when flavor is standardized• Why clean-label, additive-free products still require deep technical rigor• The role of R&D chefs in shaping future food systems• Work-life balance, parenthood, and why many chefs leave restaurants• How to translate chef intuition into scalable food innovationThis is a conversation about fermentation beyond trend, scaling artisanal flavor responsibly, and building a chef-led career outside the brigade without losing identity.🎧 Fugitive Chefs is your window into alternative culinary careers and bold food innovation. New episodes every Tuesday.👉 Follow, rate us on Spotify, subscribe & comment on YouTube, and share with someone who’s questioning their place in the kitchen.🎙 Hosted by Furqan from the Fugitive Chefs Podcast📸 Furqan’s Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT🔗 Connect with LorenzoReduced: https://reducedfood.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenzo-tirelli-b58a35232/Instagram: @lollo.tirelli
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So hello everyone, and welcome back to Fugitive Chefs Podcast,
the podcast where we talk to chefs, food innovators who've
stepped outside traditional restaurant kitchens to build new
ways of working in food. Some of them go through
research, fermentation, sustainability to get some sort
of creative independence. Today's guest is Lorenzo
Tirelli, R&D manager at Reduced in Copenhagen.
It's a company turning up cycle ingredients into deeply
(00:21):
flavorful fermented broths usingKoji and classical fermentation.
Lorenzo's Journeys pants, dropping out of pharmaceutical
chemistry, then chefing across Rome, Uruguay, France, Tuscany,
and becoming a fermentor at Norma.
And then he earned an MSC in Food Innovation and Health.
And all of this mix has led him to his current role, which
bridges craft, science and sustainability.
(00:44):
So welcome to the podcast. Lorenzo.
Thanks so much for accepting this invite.
Yeah, thank you so much. And I'm really excited to be
here and as part of the community of professionals that
you have already invited previously in in this podcast
and to, you know, share something of, of, of what I've
been doing, what I'm doing up until now that that can inspire
(01:05):
others. And maybe, you know, I'm always
open for, for being contacted in, in, in the future and, and,
and kind of clear out some of the more kind of tricky steps
that that led me where I am today.
Yeah. Definitely, I mean, it's the
podcast is all about those tricky steps.
And as you said, the episode is basically going to find out how
did you end up in this role thatyou are?
(01:26):
And also finding the impact of of of role people like queue
when they step out of the brigade, what happens?
How do you rethink the food system all together?
Because again, restaurant can bequite a time when you work in
restaurants, your idea of food is very limited to what you
serve on the menu. And also just talk about
fermentation, the technological part of things that you're using
and building this new sort of kind of chef identity.
(01:48):
Other question, like if you see yourself today as a chef or not,
how close or far is today's roleto that role back then where you
started in the kitchen? So before we dive into all of
that, Lorenzo, tell us about thebeginning, like how did it
happen that you left pharmaceutical chemistry and
pivoted into food? Tell us about that.
Sure, I was part of what what one could think of as a
mainstream development path thatmany people around the world
(02:12):
embark on through high school and then college and then going
to full time 9:00 to 5:00 work. And I think that idea for me,
after a few years of frustrationstarted daunting me and, and I
felt like I wanted to do something more practical with,
with my hands and see the results of my work much more
(02:34):
quickly. And, and so, you know, as I, as
I told you earlier, we spent some time studying
pharmaceutical chemistry for about two years in the Rome
University of Sapienza. And at some point I looked at
this massive book that I had in front and I thought, like, what
the hell am I going to do with this?
And I, and I was learning about molecules and different
(02:55):
structures of molecules according to how you look at
them. And, and I, and that really kind
of, you know, put me off and everything was going great and I
had good grades and I was happy in a way to be around peers that
were enjoying what they were doing.
But I, I needed something extra and so embarked on this culinary
journey first as a student of gastronomy in an Italian
(03:19):
hotelery school. And that I was part of through
European funds and we went through like a nine months
program of, of, you know, savoury dishes, starters and,
and trees, mains and some patisserie and bread making,
kind of like a general, you know, background to get some
(03:40):
confidence with working with food.
And then I jumped right into it.One of my first experience, more
formative ones was at the Rome Sustainable Food Project, which
is a food project started off from Alice Waters, the vice
president of Slow Food in Rome and more precisely in the
American Academy in Rome. And it's very, you know, simple
(04:02):
program of feeding the communityof scholars that are hosted into
the Academy with farm to table foods with the most, you know,
you know, pristine and and delicious produce of the
surroundings of Rome. And that's kind of where I got
started working with the idea offarm to table, but also like
making the most out of produce that, you know, was cared for
(04:25):
and people spend time working with.
So we use a lot of leftover as we transformed today's, you
know, main course into tomorrow's soup.
Oh, wow. And we had a lot of, you know,
ideas to to, you know, make the most out of of, of of what this
nutrition, the food was. And and, and when you started on
(04:46):
these restaurants and also with doing this course around
gastronomy, what was your idea the exposure was to work in
restaurants? I mean, you found this very
good, like a very niche place, Ithink just yeah, from
restaurants. It's a conceptual project behind
it. But the cardiac for sure in that
sense were being in restaurants or.
Yeah, I know. I was definitely convinced that,
you know, I wanted to have like a straight, you know, a
straightforward career in, in back then.
(05:08):
I wanted to become a chef. I wanted to work in a restaurant
and be somewhat respected in thecommunity of chefs around the
world. But then, you know, life happens
and it's a series of circumstantial decision making
and random, you know, events that happened.
So I jumped into this smaller, more niche program that I was
(05:30):
just telling you about the room sustainable food project, which
which I was happy with, You know, it was in my hometown.
I was, you know, getting gainingconfidence.
And then that was kind of, you know, what, 15 minute drive from
my place. And I was working with other
people that wanted to learn how to cook and there were some good
chefs as head chefs and executives.
(05:51):
And it was kind of a protected environment where I was allowed
to do mistakes and also try out new things.
And, and that's, that's where itstarted.
And as again, by coincidence, there was, we were hosting an
intern in that period, and it happened that this intern was
(06:12):
the sous chef of Francis Melman's restaurant Garson in
Uruguay. I had no idea about who Francis
Melman was or about who this chef coming to visit us came
came for. And but, you know, at some point
she was like, we were making pasta shoulder to shoulder.
And she was like, oh, why don't you come and spend the season
(06:33):
with us in, in, in Uruguay and, and, you know, cook some
Argentinian food with fire. And I was like, I mean, it
sounds great. Like I, I wanted to, you know,
learn more. And I just said yes.
And, you know, a couple of months after I found myself in,
in Uruguay here. That was 2015, I think.
(06:55):
Yeah, almost 10 years. 10 years.Ago a little.
What's the exposure like? Because again, being a chef, I
mean, that's what we all of us share, that a lot of other
curries, I think are sort of jealous of us because travelling
is, is easy. I mean, you're not like if a
title of being a banker in, in Rome and you can't practice
banking in the Bank of America suddenly in in the States, you
know? So like being a chef gives you
the flexibility to be able to, yeah, get into cultures and
(07:16):
learn about them. But how was your perception of
restaurants once you got there? Because again, being somebody
who grew up in your country working in a, in a restaurant,
stepping into France's small manwho's a, yeah, he's a, he's a
culinary massive figure in, in Uruguay.
So how are restaurants like those?
How did that treat? You, I think, I think, you know,
back then the excitement of leaving my country and started
(07:38):
to do the career like for real overwhelmed with me.
And it's some at the same time just kept my expectations very
low because like what I had in front was fully, you know,
unknown. I didn't know the country.
I never have been in Uruguay. I, I knew the restaurant was
like 2 hours inland and I had toget there with like 2 planes, a
(08:03):
ferry, a bus, and then I was eventually picked up on like a
street, a highway and then droveinto the mainland for for some
time to the restaurant. So I didn't, I really didn't
know, but I was going to to crash into and I also didn't
really know much about Francis Malman.
(08:23):
It's funny because a few days later, he was teaching me how to
cut milanesas, which are basically schnitzels or Cotolita
in Italian out of like this massive beef rack because we
were open in the new restaurant nearby.
And he was just next to me telling me, Hey, Lorenzo, you
know, it needs to be this thick.And of course, it's Francis
(08:47):
Malman. So his milanesa was like 3
centimeters thick and, and, and I was like slicing it next to
him. And I thought that was great.
I mean, I had no idea that someone like him of his caliber
would be teaching me something about his Argentinian food
traditions and, and some of his dishes.
(09:07):
So that for me was was really, you know, I mean, some of the
most formative experiences as well.
Next to that, the fact that there is no gas in his kitchen
is another pretty interesting, you know, element that that I
completely didn't know I was going to have to work with.
We were lighting, you know, burning wood in in these old
(09:29):
stoves and cooking directly on the stove tops out on the
street. We were making these massive
fires that if you have seen Chef's Table, you know, their
enormous structures of fire under the soil, smoking on top.
And and that was, yeah, that wasa blast.
(09:49):
I mean, it was again, like my second experience in in a
kitchen or my third experience. And I mean, what I got out of
that was, was, was. Yeah.
I mean, that's getting deep intolike also like a very of a high
caliber chef, as you say, but also like getting into the depth
of of cooking the way it is, like getting away from the whole
technological part, which is your reality today.
And then going getting into the whole, yeah, primitive sort of
(10:11):
are these ancestral techniques and the way they cook.
I think getting into it, I thinkas you said, it's given, it's
given you a lot to to carry forward.
But then also like apart from that, you've also had exposure
around Europe. You've travelled a lot in
restaurants like these in today's is work that you do.
I mean, which we'll get into more of like, what's your day
today, today, Like, but how muchof this cooking years, of the
years of working in France, Tuscany and Uruguay, how much of
(10:32):
that have you carried forward and it comes of use in your
career right now? Yeah, I think what sticks with
me up until today from back thenis the is the passion and the
comfort of a flavor. So is, is how we, how I thought
about flavor and, and how I in those early years, I trained
(10:53):
myself to tasting flavors that were wholesome, that were simple
and that other people could relate to.
It was both in these first 3 experiences that we were
discussing, it was a very straightforward approach to
food. There was no additives.
(11:15):
There were, there's no mixing too much.
There were no E numbers. It was produce simple, I would
say almost minimal processing ona stove top on a plant sha
grilled and then on the plate. And I don't know if you know
about Mahlman's, one of his, youknow, famous sayings is that he
(11:35):
wants the guest of the restaurant to make an effort to
eat their food. So that's why he serves like
half pumpkins on a plate or a huge piece of meat that you
actually need to cut and carve to eat yourself.
And I think that's that stays with me.
I mean, today reduced goes to, you know, promotes itself for
(11:58):
being additive, free from makingnatural foods, from making
fermented foods that, you know, taste good and people can relate
to. It could be something that
anyone has made at home, but youknow, made in a in a larger
scale production facility. So I think a lot of those
principles that that I, you know, got started to familiarize
(12:23):
almost a decade ago are still resonating to this day.
And, and I think that that's something that I don't think it
could have been otherwise. You know, those are part of also
my personal personality as as a,as a human, that's the food that
I like. That's the approach that I want
to have to food, but also to other things.
(12:47):
And so, you know, it was difficult.
It was random how I got until reduced but some at some at some
place came together for me and I'm happy to be where I am.
Yeah, definitely when you when you narrated the way you do it
and the way you say, you pick upthose parts of like, I think, I
think flavor itself, I feel a lot of companies, I would say
(13:08):
like yours, a lot of food tech world in itself is is definitely
a lot about E numbers and all about like things that are
controllable at the end of the day, the work that you did
before, which is yeah, working with fire, for example, to start
with something, you can't control it again, you you think
that you become a master of it and you can't pivot it in the
way you want. But I feel flavour flavours
still to a certain extent do have this natural take on how,
(13:33):
how you modify them on the way you the way you cook, the way I
mean, I don't know in in Indian cuisine, for example, how early
you put the oil or Italian cuisine, how you process the
tomatoes, what time of the year it is.
It does define a lot of flavor, which again, it's very difficult
to translate these things. And I feel such an approach that
you have, I bet the way you're rating it adds this extra layer
of somebody who thinks like a chef and then works in, works in
(13:55):
means where you have to scale upthings I guess where you can't
just be random about things. A lot, you know, for chefs like
you know, that work with produceand quality produce for for that
matter, like a lot has to do with sourcing and and knowing
your surroundings. And I think that part is a lot
more difficult to bring in a food tech startup like reduced,
(14:18):
You know, you where of course, like if you use a beautiful,
beautifully grown leek or pumpkin, that flavor is going to
be carried on to the plate and and the guests will be able to
appreciate it. But how, you know, food tech,
because of the requirements on consistency at production scales
(14:40):
that are massive, you tend to, you know, how do you say
homogenized and standardized flavors?
So that's the part that we're always working with that reduce
that is also challenging, right?You want to find the right
source of upcycled leeks or carrots and the the producer who
(15:01):
doesn't use additives and doesn't use doesn't use any, you
know, chemicals in in their production methods.
If that, if that is the case in in the second element, which I
mean, I'm just going to, you know, drop it and then we can go
to it later on. Is, is of course fermentation
(15:21):
because we use fermentation and solid-state fermentation as a
way to enhance the inherent flavors of the food that we
process in our facilities. And that is, again, I mean, of
course, if we didn't have good flavors to start with, it would
be kind of, you know, not counterintuitive to enhance
(15:42):
those and then bring him to a consumer.
But we use Koji because Koji enhances aromas and Koji
enhances taste. And, and that's, you know, the
approach, right? We, we started with some
carrots, we start with leeks or chicken for that matter.
And we kind of try to, you know,lift those flavours and bring
(16:06):
them to to the consumer. Interesting.
And and when you mention about fermentation, I mean, how was
your exposure to fermentation first?
Like I mean, you grew up in Italy, you have cheese, wine,
bread all around you. But when I talk about like
things like Koji, which are alien to European culture, have
been bought 2 fine lining scene by restaurants like Norma.
Not them being the first one, but them kind of putting books
(16:26):
out on it and making it so prominent on their menus.
How was that experience? Like did what what did you know
basically about fermentation before going to Norma?
And then what changed when once you enter there?
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, and as you say, you
know, Italians live around fermented foods.
And so I have myself cheese, wine, beer, but, you know, you
(16:51):
don't think about it necessarilyas a fermented food.
In fact, I think it happened a few times that I said I told to
someone, well, you know, you eatfermented foods all the time.
Think about Parmesan cheese. And they were like, really?
Oh yeah, I guess it is fermented, but I didn't know
that much about the kind of fermentations that Noma uses
(17:15):
these days, which are usually inmostly Asian inspired kinds of
fermentation from Japan, Korea, China.
Mostly I knew more about, you know, fermentations that were
closer to, to the area and the geographical places that I lived
in which, for example, the most known what, what is the
(17:38):
colatura? The Alicia, which is, you know,
this fermented fish sauce that was very popular back up until
in the Roman times where excess lean fish like sardines or
anchovies were fermented in openterracotta or ceramic vats for
(18:00):
months and months. And then the the drippings of
this fermented broth were used to seasoned foods on the table
and it they could have been bothsavoury and sweet, which is kind
of funny. But, you know, this umami rich
fish based sauce actually fits both, you know, an omelette or a
(18:22):
frittata, but also some sort of cake with raisins and and honey.
And then and you can you can putit on both.
And so that was the kind of fermentation that I that I was
more, you know, familiar with this this.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, now that we've got a halfway through, we have dropped
some hints about what Reduced does the way he's mentioned it.
(18:44):
Tell us about Reduced as a company for somebody who doesn't
know it, what is what does reduce stand for and what form?
Form of a business? iOS B to BB to C?
How did it start more or less right?
Right, Yeah, yeah. Reduce is a food tech scale up
that transforms upcycled food materials and ingredients into
(19:08):
fermented sauces or broths. So an example would be our
vegetable stock, which comes from carrot tops, curd bottoms,
apple cores, 3rd grade leeks that we ferment together with
Koji. And then that, that, that
product we, you know, we, we process a little bit further in
(19:32):
the downstream moment and we useas a fermented stock.
You can cook with it, you can make risotto, dressings, sauces,
make curries and and whatsoever.Reduce is a company that was
founded in March 2020. So it's relatively young and
(19:54):
while in the early days it was focused on B to C so consumer
focused company, today it's mostly B to B and so we focus on
food manufacturers and actually mostly restaurants contains.
Large hotels, conference centresor public institutions that
(20:18):
serve foods could be hospitals or or school schools, for
example. Yeah.
And it's when I, when I joined the company that was the actual
first technical employee of the company and with a chef's
background, knowing about food and flavour and fermentation.
(20:40):
And now we are about 30 people full time.
So it, it grew extensively over the past three to five years.
It's a venture capital funded company.
And yeah, we our mission is to bring delicious fermented broths
(21:02):
to food manufacturers that are looking for additive, free,
natural, wholesome flavours to make and develop the foods of
the future. And to understand the circle
Lawrence, like how circular is this?
Like where is the food waste basically coming from?
Is it coming from the same canteen or is it like larger
frozen vegetable producers or where's?
(21:23):
It no exactly. So a lot of yes, that's a
question that we get all the time because of course when we
we talk about supply and the supply of reduced ingredients,
we need to provide some sort of stability.
And that stability of course is hard to achieve when you work
with small restaurants or canteens.
But it's easier to achieve when you have a contracts with larger
(21:47):
food producers or companies thatmake, for example, agricultural
companies, right. So that, for example, our bed,
some of most of our vegetables come from this come a few
companies that prepare ready to eat salads and fruit salads.
(22:09):
So they process apples, they process leeks, they process
carrots and they throw out, you know, the pieces that you don't
want to find in a ready to eat salad.
Those we kind of collect, we purchase and then we transform.
Or for another matter, we work with broken rice from from
Italy. This is rice that again, that we
(22:32):
work with, a big distributor that collects rice from the
agricultural NE of Italy. And of course, in the process of
polishing, there are broken kernels that cannot be
integrated into, you know, packed food packages.
(22:53):
And we buy those and we use themfor Koji, for example.
And another business related question, just for the people
listening to also understand thebusiness model and concepts like
these, how do they work? Because again, they sound very
easy on a, on a paper level, ButI think it has a lot of layers
because again, as you said, the stability in the market, the
quality of them, I guess you have to train the people to how
(23:14):
to collect, how to process and send you these things.
But but moving on to like, like products like these, how what is
the motivation for these companies?
Is it like the economic benefit?Is it corporate social
responsibility? Is the EU lawn food waste?
Yeah, it's, it's a mix of those for sure.
I mean for companies that work within the EU boundaries, it's
(23:34):
definitely the, you know, the targets that we have put out as
Europeans about reducing CO2 emissions that push companies to
work with reduced. And that's, that's one of the
that's kind of the umbrella. It's a scenario background that
(23:56):
we're working within. But then singularly companies
that we have for sure also economically are looking for
some extra revenue because you know, you're today you're
throwing out or you're almost paying to have food residues and
(24:17):
production by products to be picked up and then upcycled or
recycled. And then, you know, another day
reduced can buy them from you ata small, you know, price.
And then you can actually increase your, your revenue.
And that is a scenario that, of course will become more relevant
(24:39):
when the company will also increase its volumes, right?
So that that's also part of the picture.
But definitely optimizing production cycles and production
chains in a large company is of great interest to to to increase
(25:00):
revenue mostly, yeah. And to also be able to blame
that there is work being done towards, you know more
responsible food production system.
But I think the economical factor is definitely the leading
one. If and if and if those numbers
can make sense when projected byvolumes attached and with, you
(25:24):
know, the years to come, then then you know there will be a
collaboration that is going to lead to some fruitful results.
Yeah, definitely. And I think I think that's how
it should be because a lot of companies when they go about
sustainability, I feel the economic part gets left behind
when it comes about. I mean, of course, the big food
companies, that's their first thing in mind, which is why the
new ideas have to answer that question early on.
(25:45):
So that it doesn't if as long asit's economically viable, it
will be sustainable in the longer, longer chain of the
game. You know, and I mean, my reason
for these questions was also because I feel to the beginning
of the podcast, how you spoke about your food career as
somebody growing up, moving on from chemistry to learning food.
I feel the image of somebody listening again, a lot of people
listen this on just an audio. So I feel I feel that somebody
(26:06):
who also listens a lot of podcasts, it's very difficult to
understand profiles when it's about a career transition.
So now we've spoken about your chef past, we've spoken about
your current job, you know, which is very technical, a lot
of business side to it. Also, even though your role is
technical, it, it requires a lotof, yeah, understanding the
whole food system, especially inyour company, how it works.
And for me now as somebody who'slistening and has heard about
(26:28):
this chef, we've we've skipped the part where you've also taken
some sort of academic degree into getting into this role, you
know. So tell us about that.
How was the masters in studying in Copenhagen?
Why Copenhagen? Because we also know the Danish
education system happens to be, if I'm if I'm not wrong, it's
kind of economically viable for Europeans because I think they
have they have scholarships and ways to make it cheaper, right.
(26:50):
Was it that was it because of Copenhagen being a leader in
this in this field or what what made you end up doing?
But I. Think, you know, just to to give
it one more step before like thecuriosity of understanding where
does this food that I'm working with today in a kitchen comes
from and how was it farm? Was it organic agriculture or
(27:14):
biodynamic? We does the restaurant know the
farmer? We're all questions that I was
curious and and motivated to answer at some point or another.
And so actually when I was out in Uruguay, I had applied for a
bachelor's education in Norway, which I got accepted and
(27:35):
actually ended up moving over there to pursue a bachelor's in
environmental and development studies.
So that it was a very broad picture about, you know, food
systems included, but also politics of food, politics of
development subsidies, kind of working with NGOs.
They gave me like, you know, broad strokes about kind of how
(27:58):
to work fun, the world functionswhen, you know, economical and
political and and community interests are at stake.
But I was missing the, the food,the deep food education.
That's why I went to Copenhagen after, after, after having this
very broad, you know, education in, in the environmental studies
(28:22):
and in Copenhagen, you know, theidea was to pursue the masters
in food innovation health, to kind of narrow down my technical
side to food flavours and to kind of also the business
aspects of, of what it means to maybe start your own business.
And, and as you said, I mean, I was interested in Copenhagen
(28:45):
because the university is free for Europeans.
You actually, I mean, it's free.And if you're working 10 to 12
hours a week in a business, you actually get also some subsidies
from the state to kind of get byon a monthly basis because it is
(29:06):
very expensive. But also I was interested in
coping and because as a chef, you know, at at core, I was
really kind of burning to experience first hand this
Nordic food culture movement that that started, you know, a
few years before with, with restaurants like Noma.
(29:30):
But even before that, other pioneers in, you know, making
the most of environments like the Scandinavian one, which were
not necessarily valued much in the gastronomical scene.
So those were kind of the motivations that that brought me
to to coping and then kind of pushed me to to make the most
(29:53):
out of this education. I mean, education is great, but
it isn't only like a tool for someone to understand better or
ask right questions. I think what really pushed me
was the network that I managed to create in those years.
And, and you know, landing the internship at Noma was a key
(30:14):
step to getting to reduced, right?
Because in August 2020, I was there with a friend of mine
doing the internship. And at the end of it, I, I was
offered a job in the fermentation lab, which I
pursued for about a year. So working only in the
(30:36):
fermentation kitchen, making misos, soy sauces, garams,
kombuchas, all sorts of like other ferments and, and
seasonings for the menu. And, and after about a year, I
decided to leave to finish and wrap up my master's because I
kind of put it on hold. I was, you know, I did a year of
(30:59):
master's studies and I got this internship and then I was off
for the job and, you know, I wasthinking, well, this is like a
massive opportunity for me. I'm also, I'm open to give up my
studies to stay in Noma and kindof do that career.
But then after about a year, I understood that, you know, I
actually needed to complete the,the degree and would have been
(31:21):
much more valuable for me in thelong run to have a master's
degree. And so I went back to studying
after about a year or so of Novafermentation.
And I completed that in a few months Later, the ex director of
fermentation and Noma, David Zilber, wrote to me on Instagram
(31:44):
saying, Hey, like, you know, I, I know a few, I know a couple of
Danish guys that are trying to start like a company where
fermentation and flavor and science are needed.
Would you be interested in that?And I said, yes, of course, I,
you know, put me in touch. I want to meet these guys.
(32:05):
And that's how it happened. And, you know, it was, I didn't
even know much David Zilber because he actually wasn't there
when I was at Noma. He had already left.
But for some, you know, contingencies and Copenhagen is
also a very small town, you know, it's people know each
other. He was like so nice to just
(32:26):
reach out. He, of course, probably knew a
little bit about my background with science and food merging
together in, in, in, in technical and not so technical
ways. And, and, and he was, you know,
put me in touch with Emil and William, who are the founders of
of, of reduced. And there we go.
Here is almost five years later.Get the add reduce though.
(32:51):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's a very curious part that you've taken.
I mean all of these things as you I mean you yourself, it's
been random, but also it's been very when you see it does the
puzzle does fit each other. But Lorence, I want to hear from
you like as somebody who left science that go into kitchen,
which again is a lot of science,but the kind of places you were
was driven more by flavor and and and and intuition, I think.
And then ending up in this masters going to Noma.
(33:14):
How, how did you think the scientific?
I would say more than scientific.
How did you think? How do you think the masters has
which gaps in your profile? Do you think the masters has
failed? Because again, doing the masters
and going to say ferment again, Noma Noma again, the way it
ferments, it's for somebody veryscience LED.
It's not the right way to do things.
It's what makes sense for Norma itself.
So again, the approach of fermentation is very different.
(33:36):
I think because of how chefs think.
They just fill the gaps how theycan.
They don't really follow a log book as much as as as science
would like them to. But what did the masters give
you that gave you that edge over, say, a regular chef you
know just knows to cook? Yeah.
But it's, it's again, it's, it'sa good question.
Unfortunately, still today, you know, it's, it's hard to provide
(34:00):
like a clearer answer to it because I really believe that
the, the masters and allowing myself to study for two years
was really an opportunity to kind of be flexible and open to
(34:20):
interests that would pop up during along that course.
And to be a bit more practical and, and, and, and specific.
The masters of food innovation and health at Copenhagen
University has a number of credits that are open for the
(34:40):
student to design at their own, let's say interest.
And so of course, myself as as astudent needed to reach out to
the labs or to a cool company that I was interested in and
convinced them to let me in to pursue that master.
(35:03):
Then I think that's the hard part.
So the the masters allowed me tokind of, you know, maybe fill
those interests and kind of get those network to that connection
because, you know, once you're done with the master, the
pressure builds in and like you need to work.
You're in Copenhagen and rent isreally expensive, so you need to
(35:23):
get a job quick. You don't have the time to write
emails and try to get, you know,in touch with people necessarily
when you're also, you know, yourpeers are starting to get their
careers going and and so on. That is one part.
So what did the master help me? What did the masters in
(35:46):
Copenhagen feel that I couldn't feel as a chef?
Well, the time I mean. Also, as a chef, you don't get
much time off and you eat standing up a lot of the times
and the breaks are like 20 to 30minutes and you're working 6-7
days a week. Now it changed, but you know,
there is there is still the rhythm.
(36:06):
It's pretty high. So the masters allowed me for
time and I really valued that because they did start working
as a as a chef. And I knew that time was such a
a precious resource. So I used it to get in touch
with people that I thought were interesting with professors that
maybe we're not teaching me, butyou know, had interesting
(36:28):
connections to the food, food seen in Copenhagen.
And the other part for sure was some of the elements of, of, of
entrepreneurship and innovation,right.
My master's was focused on innovation and health.
And so that part for sure was filmed from, from my
educational, let's say path thatand that I did not get as as a
(36:53):
chef. So knowing.
So what are the what, what, whatdoes the big industry look for
when they're innovating? What are maybe nutritional
components of foods that might be interesting for health in the
long term? And what do we need to change
about the current food system that seems to be not working
(37:16):
anymore, right. So, so those elements I managed
to pick up and of course fermentation then came in as an
answer because a lot of fermented foods are foods that
are maybe have more bioavailablenutrients and, and, and
elements. And as a company, as a startup,
you want to advertise and marketthese as something good and
(37:41):
something healthy. So I think these these two
components ultimately the masters help me with time,
putting time on my on my side and getting to reach out and
explore new things and also the more innovative nutritional
health aspects of making food and then having maybe putting a
(38:04):
business on top of that, runninga business based on food.
Yeah, yeah, I love what you've highlighted, Lawrence.
I mean, honestly, what he said about the time factor, I feel is
something many of us don't realize that how important, how
nourishing it could be to also be able to get in these circles
where you can network possibly for a better career, for better.
Just inspire yourself by other people having different
(38:25):
narratives about the food system, you know?
But another question I had for you, Lorenzo, was like, because
again, as I said before, the chef carrier, being a chef
itself is a lot about intuition.It's a lot about doing things
randomly, whereas R&D and when you have to especially scale a
product up, it's it's very planned.
So in this battle between craftsmanship of being intuitive
and developing things without boundaries to scaling up, what
(38:48):
do you think gets lost? Like when you want to translate
something as a chef, which part is the most difficult to
translate into a commercial product?
Especially with your experience now with reduced?
Yeah, it's a, it's a great question.
Which part? There are a few parts that that
makes it difficult to scale. Sometimes the eagerness to
(39:16):
process fails the upscaling cycle, the eagerness to for
example, roast a carrot and thenextract the flavours by doing
maybe ice clarification and thenadding a miso into that to
(39:37):
enhance the flavours. That already is way too
complicated for a start up or a company to upscale in, in, in
larger volumes, right? We're talking about a company
reduced that wants to go for thebig markets, for mass markets.
We're not doing necessarily our artisanal products.
(39:58):
Our approach is artisanal in a way that's the mission that we
have is to upscale an artisanal approach to like a mass
production facility. So we're not, we're not like the
small fermentary that sells in boutique stores or nice delis
(40:20):
around town. We want to sell, you know, over
the sea in the US. In Italy and possibly in India
and and other in Australia. So you need to simplify a lot at
the beginning of the process in order to avoid complications
(40:41):
while upscaling the, the, the, the process and the product that
that's one thing. And then the quality.
Quality is always like the challenge, right?
Like the flavors that you get ina test kitchen are hardly the
(41:01):
same when you produce them at 10or 100 times scale.
They're in soap. You know you need a lot of
analysis, aroma analysis, taste analysis that our flavour
scientists help us with. So when we develop a product, we
make it in a, you know, in A10 litre bottle or A5 litre bottle,
(41:24):
and then we break it down into its aroma composition, into it's
taste composition. So we can see how much of this
alcohol is present here, how much of glutamic acid is present
in my, you know, lab, lab bench prototype.
And then those values and that those profiles we try to
(41:46):
replicate at scale. And so we can see what are the
gaps in our own mind and taste when we produce at 500 liter or
at 5000 liters. And I think that's, that's the
the main challenge, yeah. I mean.
As you said, I feel, I feel measuring as you mentioned,
mentioned, even though it soundsboring and sounds like something
(42:09):
that limits us. I feel as, as chefs, especially
those who work in R&D, those area little bit different, like
little apart from restaurants, but still working in a creative
field. They find a lot of them who have
met and have a chat with find the logging and the calculating,
the measuring very boring and limiting.
And, and some of them actually say that makes them less
creative. But I feel in the end, that's
(42:29):
the only way to assure that you're constantly creative, and
not just creative out of, yeah, randomly out of the way, you
know? For sure.
No, I totally agree. But also, I mean, having the
details about your, your miso, your soy sauce, your fermented
paste is what makes that paste unique.
(42:50):
And so you cannot claim that youknow what you've done is
one-of-a-kind and it's not replicable because you know, you
have a series of food is, is chemistry and it's made of a lot
of components, aromas, paste component components that make
that food unique. And so knowing about them is
(43:14):
actually the only way, well a really good way to be able to
replicate those products that one is so proud of, of
developing 100. Percent, 100% and and Lorenzo,
like you have lived the life of being in academics, then being
in kitchens, then taking a break, getting time to study
again, now being in this, in this food tech world.
(43:36):
How would you say as somebody asas just purely about work life
balance and how your life is, istoday?
How do you see the life currently?
What what aspects would you highlight?
And was the restaurant life thatyou used to live a sustainable
like what do you see because youalso recently became a parent.
So do you see that would have been your reality right now?
How sustainable was it for you as as a person living that?
(43:57):
Life, yeah, for me, I, I need, Ineed balance between work and
personal life on a day-to-day. And when I was working at
restaurants back then, I was working maybe 6 days or five
days and for many hours in a row.
(44:19):
And I didn't have much personal,personal time off during, you
know, my Tuesday or my Wednesday.
And for me personally, that is very important because I need
balance throughout the, the week.
And you know, then I, you, you, you push yourself to make time
(44:42):
off even when you're working 1415 hours, but that ends up
straining you or straining me inthe long run.
And so I definitely couldn't have the life that I have today
if I kept being a chef. To answer your question pretty,
you know, quickly. And, and I think for me, it
(45:06):
would have been too hard to pursue the chefing career at
this point in, in life with, with, with a family, for
example. And also with the, the, the,
the, the rights that I get as anemployee of reduced compared to
(45:27):
what I would have got as a, as a, as a chef in the kitchen.
And I'm talking about, you know,workers rights and of course
paychecks. But, but also, you know, as I
told you earlier, I was allowed to take five months off from my
company to be with my newborn child.
(45:49):
And and that's an invaluable, let's say, opportunity that I
didn't hear restaurants to provide, let's say.
No, I have a doubt that. I mean, yeah, for sure.
Who were interesting and and I mean it's been a beautiful
journey. I mean listening to your I mean
I think we're going to keep on going to understand but but I
(46:12):
think we've broken down very well of how how your buildings
were into food how random in your own words how it was and
how you've found the spas which has found the right balance for
you. Also, I mean, you mentioned on
the form that we have for gueststhat you mentioned that you
would like to have a great impact on the bigger food
system. And I feel the broadcast itself
is the first step for people whobecause a lot of us when we look
(46:33):
if I would just go to your LinkedIn, I would say, you know,
Lorenzo does this technical job at a company I do not associate
a chef with. I just associate somebody who
goes to a food tech degree studies it.
It's just in spending in labs. So for me it's very important
with these with these episodes to make it real that these are
real people who were at kitchens.
There are real people who had careers like the ones listening
to it are having it right now and a transition is definitely
(46:55):
possible and viable, Lorenzo. But I would like to hear from
you. I think you would say it much
better than I could on what doesimpact in the food system.
When you mention it, you want tohave a positive impact.
What does it mean for you? And inspired by that, what would
you say to somebody who's listening?
You know, who is, who is listening, is aware about the
reality of working in restaurants, has possibly been
inspired by a story like yours. What should they do to be able
(47:17):
to realize whatever their dream is outside the restaurant food
system? Yeah.
Well, that's I can answer the first one, the first question
pretty unfairly. And and for me as a chef and as
a the head of R&D at, at Reduce today making an impact in the
(47:39):
food system means bringing, you know, artisanally produced chef
produced products to the market and into available market,
right. Accessibility is a key term
here. We're not doing daily deli
products or boutique kind of products, but impact is impact
(48:01):
at large and large scale. So that for me is products that
are additive free, that are wholesome, there is no chemicals
in them that taste like something that you can relate
to. And I think it's that that's,
that's what impact means for me.And I think it's, it's, it's a
(48:21):
very hard, in fact objective to,to pursue at this point in time.
And I think for people that are listening, I, I said a lot of
time, random and circumstantial events that happened to me while
I dropped out from, from dropping out to, from university
(48:44):
in Rome in 2013 to getting a joband, and reduced.
I said many times how random things kind of happen in your,
in your day-to-day and, and the bridges start connecting to each
other. But ultimately, I, you know, to
those listening, I would say that there is in US something
(49:04):
that drives us on a day-to-day that makes up wake up in the
morning and do our job, you know, with passion and, and, and
drive and motivation. And I think I had that too.
And I have it too still today. And I think is, is to follow
that because there isn't actually no random, no random
(49:28):
event, there isn't things happenbecause we kind of create those
opportunities. And so following that internal
gut feeling or that motivation, whatever it is that makes us
feel good and, and, and you know, upbeat about our, our
day-to-day is, is, is definitelywhat to pursue.
(49:48):
And then what brought me here today, regardless of the
educational background or, or, you know, the experiences, is,
is, is kind of believing in, in,in these steps as formative
steps as something that we need to do and not being afraid of,
of changing or taking the, the more the less conventional paths
(50:10):
here. Definitely.
I mean, I couldn't say it, Ben Lorenzo, and I've loved
everything you've shared. Especially for me, the biggest
highlight was what you said about making accessible change
because again, a lot of these products that you're talking
about can somehow make like feelthat they make impact, but then
make it just within a bubble. So I feel the great, the greater
vision that reduced has of making this accessible for the
masses, I feel is a beautiful vision and I feel your your
(50:32):
episode has been super inspiration for everybody
listening. I can just speak for myself.
I mean, how you've proven this part and also the words that you
said about following that instinct and going ahead with it
and believing in yourself to make those steps.
I mean, it did happen randomly that you ended up at normal.
But again, it, it requires the guts and the instinct to, you
know, knock those doors to put your foot into them, however
(50:53):
difficult they are, they are. And, and that the the collective
impact of those events causes what looks random today.
I think it's, it's, it's, it's because of a lot of intentional
steps taken towards that dream. So, Lorenzo, thanks so much
again for making time on this special leave that you have for
me on the podcast. And for sure, we hope to stay
connected. Yeah, for sure.
Thank you so much for working. It was a pleasure to to share
(51:16):
and and hopefully you know this this will lead to a lot of other
meaningful conversations. So I wish you a really good day
and nice to meet you. Thank you so much.
So hello everyone, and welcome back to Fugitive Chefs Podcast,
the podcast where we talk to chefs, food innovators who've
stepped outside traditional restaurant kitchens to build new
ways of working in food. Some of them go through
research, fermentation, sustainability to get some sort
of creative independence. Today's guest is Lorenzo
Tirelli, R&D manager at Reduced in Copenhagen.
It's a company turning up cycle ingredients into deeply
(00:21):
flavorful fermented broths usingKoji and classical fermentation.
Lorenzo's Journeys pants, dropping out of pharmaceutical
chemistry, then chefing across Rome, Uruguay, France, Tuscany,
and becoming a fermentor at Norma.
And then he earned an MSC in Food Innovation and Health.
And all of this mix has led him to his current role, which
bridges craft, science and sustainability.
(00:44):
So welcome to the podcast. Lorenzo.
Thanks so much for accepting this invite.
Yeah, thank you so much. And I'm really excited to be
here and as part of the community of professionals that
you have already invited previously in in this podcast
and to, you know, share something of, of, of what I've
been doing, what I'm doing up until now that that can inspire
(01:05):
others. And maybe, you know, I'm always
open for, for being contacted in, in, in the future and, and,
and kind of clear out some of the more kind of tricky steps
that that led me where I am today.
Yeah. Definitely, I mean, it's the
podcast is all about those tricky steps.
And as you said, the episode is basically going to find out how
did you end up in this role thatyou are?
(01:26):
And also finding the impact of of of role people like queue
when they step out of the brigade, what happens?
How do you rethink the food system all together?
Because again, restaurant can bequite a time when you work in
restaurants, your idea of food is very limited to what you
serve on the menu. And also just talk about
fermentation, the technological part of things that you're using
and building this new sort of kind of chef identity.
(01:48):
Other question, like if you see yourself today as a chef or not,
how close or far is today's roleto that role back then where you
started in the kitchen? So before we dive into all of
that, Lorenzo, tell us about thebeginning, like how did it
happen that you left pharmaceutical chemistry and
pivoted into food? Tell us about that.
Sure, I was part of what what one could think of as a
mainstream development path thatmany people around the world
(02:12):
embark on through high school and then college and then going
to full time 9:00 to 5:00 work. And I think that idea for me,
after a few years of frustrationstarted daunting me and, and I
felt like I wanted to do something more practical with,
with my hands and see the results of my work much more
(02:34):
quickly. And, and so, you know, as I, as
I told you earlier, we spent some time studying
pharmaceutical chemistry for about two years in the Rome
University of Sapienza. And at some point I looked at
this massive book that I had in front and I thought, like, what
the hell am I going to do with this?
And I, and I was learning about molecules and different
(02:55):
structures of molecules according to how you look at
them. And, and I, and that really kind
of, you know, put me off and everything was going great and I
had good grades and I was happy in a way to be around peers that
were enjoying what they were doing.
But I, I needed something extra and so embarked on this culinary
journey first as a student of gastronomy in an Italian
(03:19):
hotelery school. And that I was part of through
European funds and we went through like a nine months
program of, of, you know, savoury dishes, starters and,
and trees, mains and some patisserie and bread making,
kind of like a general, you know, background to get some
(03:40):
confidence with working with food.
And then I jumped right into it.One of my first experience, more
formative ones was at the Rome Sustainable Food Project, which
is a food project started off from Alice Waters, the vice
president of Slow Food in Rome and more precisely in the
American Academy in Rome. And it's very, you know, simple
(04:02):
program of feeding the communityof scholars that are hosted into
the Academy with farm to table foods with the most, you know,
you know, pristine and and delicious produce of the
surroundings of Rome. And that's kind of where I got
started working with the idea offarm to table, but also like
making the most out of produce that, you know, was cared for
(04:25):
and people spend time working with.
So we use a lot of leftover as we transformed today's, you
know, main course into tomorrow's soup.
Oh, wow. And we had a lot of, you know,
ideas to to, you know, make the most out of of, of of what this
nutrition, the food was. And and, and when you started on
(04:46):
these restaurants and also with doing this course around
gastronomy, what was your idea the exposure was to work in
restaurants? I mean, you found this very
good, like a very niche place, Ithink just yeah, from
restaurants. It's a conceptual project behind
it. But the cardiac for sure in that
sense were being in restaurants or.
Yeah, I know. I was definitely convinced that,
you know, I wanted to have like a straight, you know, a
straightforward career in, in back then.
(05:08):
I wanted to become a chef. I wanted to work in a restaurant
and be somewhat respected in thecommunity of chefs around the
world. But then, you know, life happens
and it's a series of circumstantial decision making
and random, you know, events that happened.
So I jumped into this smaller, more niche program that I was
(05:30):
just telling you about the room sustainable food project, which
which I was happy with, You know, it was in my hometown.
I was, you know, getting gainingconfidence.
And then that was kind of, you know, what, 15 minute drive from
my place. And I was working with other
people that wanted to learn how to cook and there were some good
chefs as head chefs and executives.
(05:51):
And it was kind of a protected environment where I was allowed
to do mistakes and also try out new things.
And, and that's, that's where itstarted.
And as again, by coincidence, there was, we were hosting an
intern in that period, and it happened that this intern was
(06:12):
the sous chef of Francis Melman's restaurant Garson in
Uruguay. I had no idea about who Francis
Melman was or about who this chef coming to visit us came
came for. And but, you know, at some point
she was like, we were making pasta shoulder to shoulder.
And she was like, oh, why don't you come and spend the season
(06:33):
with us in, in, in Uruguay and, and, you know, cook some
Argentinian food with fire. And I was like, I mean, it
sounds great. Like I, I wanted to, you know,
learn more. And I just said yes.
And, you know, a couple of months after I found myself in,
in Uruguay here. That was 2015, I think.
(06:55):
Yeah, almost 10 years. 10 years.Ago a little.
What's the exposure like? Because again, being a chef, I
mean, that's what we all of us share, that a lot of other
curries, I think are sort of jealous of us because travelling
is, is easy. I mean, you're not like if a
title of being a banker in, in Rome and you can't practice
banking in the Bank of America suddenly in in the States, you
know? So like being a chef gives you
the flexibility to be able to, yeah, get into cultures and
(07:16):
learn about them. But how was your perception of
restaurants once you got there? Because again, being somebody
who grew up in your country working in a, in a restaurant,
stepping into France's small manwho's a, yeah, he's a, he's a
culinary massive figure in, in Uruguay.
So how are restaurants like those?
How did that treat? You, I think, I think, you know,
back then the excitement of leaving my country and started
(07:38):
to do the career like for real overwhelmed with me.
And it's some at the same time just kept my expectations very
low because like what I had in front was fully, you know,
unknown. I didn't know the country.
I never have been in Uruguay. I, I knew the restaurant was
like 2 hours inland and I had toget there with like 2 planes, a
(08:03):
ferry, a bus, and then I was eventually picked up on like a
street, a highway and then droveinto the mainland for for some
time to the restaurant. So I didn't, I really didn't
know, but I was going to to crash into and I also didn't
really know much about Francis Malman.
(08:23):
It's funny because a few days later, he was teaching me how to
cut milanesas, which are basically schnitzels or Cotolita
in Italian out of like this massive beef rack because we
were open in the new restaurant nearby.
And he was just next to me telling me, Hey, Lorenzo, you
know, it needs to be this thick.And of course, it's Francis
(08:47):
Malman. So his milanesa was like 3
centimeters thick and, and, and I was like slicing it next to
him. And I thought that was great.
I mean, I had no idea that someone like him of his caliber
would be teaching me something about his Argentinian food
traditions and, and some of his dishes.
(09:07):
So that for me was was really, you know, I mean, some of the
most formative experiences as well.
Next to that, the fact that there is no gas in his kitchen
is another pretty interesting, you know, element that that I
completely didn't know I was going to have to work with.
We were lighting, you know, burning wood in in these old
(09:29):
stoves and cooking directly on the stove tops out on the
street. We were making these massive
fires that if you have seen Chef's Table, you know, their
enormous structures of fire under the soil, smoking on top.
And and that was, yeah, that wasa blast.
(09:49):
I mean, it was again, like my second experience in in a
kitchen or my third experience. And I mean, what I got out of
that was, was, was. Yeah.
I mean, that's getting deep intolike also like a very of a high
caliber chef, as you say, but also like getting into the depth
of of cooking the way it is, like getting away from the whole
technological part, which is your reality today.
And then going getting into the whole, yeah, primitive sort of
(10:11):
are these ancestral techniques and the way they cook.
I think getting into it, I thinkas you said, it's given, it's
given you a lot to to carry forward.
But then also like apart from that, you've also had exposure
around Europe. You've travelled a lot in
restaurants like these in today's is work that you do.
I mean, which we'll get into more of like, what's your day
today, today, Like, but how muchof this cooking years, of the
years of working in France, Tuscany and Uruguay, how much of
(10:32):
that have you carried forward and it comes of use in your
career right now? Yeah, I think what sticks with
me up until today from back thenis the is the passion and the
comfort of a flavor. So is, is how we, how I thought
about flavor and, and how I in those early years, I trained
(10:53):
myself to tasting flavors that were wholesome, that were simple
and that other people could relate to.
It was both in these first 3 experiences that we were
discussing, it was a very straightforward approach to
food. There was no additives.
(11:15):
There were, there's no mixing too much.
There were no E numbers. It was produce simple, I would
say almost minimal processing ona stove top on a plant sha
grilled and then on the plate. And I don't know if you know
about Mahlman's, one of his, youknow, famous sayings is that he
(11:35):
wants the guest of the restaurant to make an effort to
eat their food. So that's why he serves like
half pumpkins on a plate or a huge piece of meat that you
actually need to cut and carve to eat yourself.
And I think that's that stays with me.
I mean, today reduced goes to, you know, promotes itself for
(11:58):
being additive, free from makingnatural foods, from making
fermented foods that, you know, taste good and people can relate
to. It could be something that
anyone has made at home, but youknow, made in a in a larger
scale production facility. So I think a lot of those
principles that that I, you know, got started to familiarize
(12:23):
almost a decade ago are still resonating to this day.
And, and I think that that's something that I don't think it
could have been otherwise. You know, those are part of also
my personal personality as as a,as a human, that's the food that
I like. That's the approach that I want
to have to food, but also to other things.
(12:47):
And so, you know, it was difficult.
It was random how I got until reduced but some at some at some
place came together for me and I'm happy to be where I am.
Yeah, definitely when you when you narrated the way you do it
and the way you say, you pick upthose parts of like, I think, I
think flavor itself, I feel a lot of companies, I would say
(13:08):
like yours, a lot of food tech world in itself is is definitely
a lot about E numbers and all about like things that are
controllable at the end of the day, the work that you did
before, which is yeah, working with fire, for example, to start
with something, you can't control it again, you you think
that you become a master of it and you can't pivot it in the
way you want. But I feel flavour flavours
still to a certain extent do have this natural take on how,
(13:33):
how you modify them on the way you the way you cook, the way I
mean, I don't know in in Indian cuisine, for example, how early
you put the oil or Italian cuisine, how you process the
tomatoes, what time of the year it is.
It does define a lot of flavor, which again, it's very difficult
to translate these things. And I feel such an approach that
you have, I bet the way you're rating it adds this extra layer
of somebody who thinks like a chef and then works in, works in
(13:55):
means where you have to scale upthings I guess where you can't
just be random about things. A lot, you know, for chefs like
you know, that work with produceand quality produce for for that
matter, like a lot has to do with sourcing and and knowing
your surroundings. And I think that part is a lot
more difficult to bring in a food tech startup like reduced,
(14:18):
You know, you where of course, like if you use a beautiful,
beautifully grown leek or pumpkin, that flavor is going to
be carried on to the plate and and the guests will be able to
appreciate it. But how, you know, food tech,
because of the requirements on consistency at production scales
(14:40):
that are massive, you tend to, you know, how do you say
homogenized and standardized flavors?
So that's the part that we're always working with that reduce
that is also challenging, right?You want to find the right
source of upcycled leeks or carrots and the the producer who
(15:01):
doesn't use additives and doesn't use doesn't use any, you
know, chemicals in in their production methods.
If that, if that is the case in in the second element, which I
mean, I'm just going to, you know, drop it and then we can go
to it later on. Is, is of course fermentation
(15:21):
because we use fermentation and solid-state fermentation as a
way to enhance the inherent flavors of the food that we
process in our facilities. And that is, again, I mean, of
course, if we didn't have good flavors to start with, it would
be kind of, you know, not counterintuitive to enhance
(15:42):
those and then bring him to a consumer.
But we use Koji because Koji enhances aromas and Koji
enhances taste. And, and that's, you know, the
approach, right? We, we started with some
carrots, we start with leeks or chicken for that matter.
And we kind of try to, you know,lift those flavours and bring
(16:06):
them to to the consumer. Interesting.
And and when you mention about fermentation, I mean, how was
your exposure to fermentation first?
Like I mean, you grew up in Italy, you have cheese, wine,
bread all around you. But when I talk about like
things like Koji, which are alien to European culture, have
been bought 2 fine lining scene by restaurants like Norma.
Not them being the first one, but them kind of putting books
(16:26):
out on it and making it so prominent on their menus.
How was that experience? Like did what what did you know
basically about fermentation before going to Norma?
And then what changed when once you enter there?
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, and as you say, you
know, Italians live around fermented foods.
And so I have myself cheese, wine, beer, but, you know, you
(16:51):
don't think about it necessarilyas a fermented food.
In fact, I think it happened a few times that I said I told to
someone, well, you know, you eatfermented foods all the time.
Think about Parmesan cheese. And they were like, really?
Oh yeah, I guess it is fermented, but I didn't know
that much about the kind of fermentations that Noma uses
(17:15):
these days, which are usually inmostly Asian inspired kinds of
fermentation from Japan, Korea, China.
Mostly I knew more about, you know, fermentations that were
closer to, to the area and the geographical places that I lived
in which, for example, the most known what, what is the
(17:38):
colatura? The Alicia, which is, you know,
this fermented fish sauce that was very popular back up until
in the Roman times where excess lean fish like sardines or
anchovies were fermented in openterracotta or ceramic vats for
(18:00):
months and months. And then the the drippings of
this fermented broth were used to seasoned foods on the table
and it they could have been bothsavoury and sweet, which is kind
of funny. But, you know, this umami rich
fish based sauce actually fits both, you know, an omelette or a
(18:22):
frittata, but also some sort of cake with raisins and and honey.
And then and you can you can putit on both.
And so that was the kind of fermentation that I that I was
more, you know, familiar with this this.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, now that we've got a halfway through, we have dropped
some hints about what Reduced does the way he's mentioned it.
(18:44):
Tell us about Reduced as a company for somebody who doesn't
know it, what is what does reduce stand for and what form?
Form of a business? iOS B to BB to C?
How did it start more or less right?
Right, Yeah, yeah. Reduce is a food tech scale up
that transforms upcycled food materials and ingredients into
(19:08):
fermented sauces or broths. So an example would be our
vegetable stock, which comes from carrot tops, curd bottoms,
apple cores, 3rd grade leeks that we ferment together with
Koji. And then that, that, that
product we, you know, we, we process a little bit further in
(19:32):
the downstream moment and we useas a fermented stock.
You can cook with it, you can make risotto, dressings, sauces,
make curries and and whatsoever.Reduce is a company that was
founded in March 2020. So it's relatively young and
(19:54):
while in the early days it was focused on B to C so consumer
focused company, today it's mostly B to B and so we focus on
food manufacturers and actually mostly restaurants contains.
Large hotels, conference centresor public institutions that
(20:18):
serve foods could be hospitals or or school schools, for
example. Yeah.
And it's when I, when I joined the company that was the actual
first technical employee of the company and with a chef's
background, knowing about food and flavour and fermentation.
(20:40):
And now we are about 30 people full time.
So it, it grew extensively over the past three to five years.
It's a venture capital funded company.
And yeah, we our mission is to bring delicious fermented broths
(21:02):
to food manufacturers that are looking for additive, free,
natural, wholesome flavours to make and develop the foods of
the future. And to understand the circle
Lawrence, like how circular is this?
Like where is the food waste basically coming from?
Is it coming from the same canteen or is it like larger
frozen vegetable producers or where's?
(21:23):
It no exactly. So a lot of yes, that's a
question that we get all the time because of course when we
we talk about supply and the supply of reduced ingredients,
we need to provide some sort of stability.
And that stability of course is hard to achieve when you work
with small restaurants or canteens.
But it's easier to achieve when you have a contracts with larger
(21:47):
food producers or companies thatmake, for example, agricultural
companies, right. So that, for example, our bed,
some of most of our vegetables come from this come a few
companies that prepare ready to eat salads and fruit salads.
(22:09):
So they process apples, they process leeks, they process
carrots and they throw out, you know, the pieces that you don't
want to find in a ready to eat salad.
Those we kind of collect, we purchase and then we transform.
Or for another matter, we work with broken rice from from
Italy. This is rice that again, that we
(22:32):
work with, a big distributor that collects rice from the
agricultural NE of Italy. And of course, in the process of
polishing, there are broken kernels that cannot be
integrated into, you know, packed food packages.
(22:53):
And we buy those and we use themfor Koji, for example.
And another business related question, just for the people
listening to also understand thebusiness model and concepts like
these, how do they work? Because again, they sound very
easy on a, on a paper level, ButI think it has a lot of layers
because again, as you said, the stability in the market, the
quality of them, I guess you have to train the people to how
(23:14):
to collect, how to process and send you these things.
But but moving on to like, like products like these, how what is
the motivation for these companies?
Is it like the economic benefit?Is it corporate social
responsibility? Is the EU lawn food waste?
Yeah, it's, it's a mix of those for sure.
I mean for companies that work within the EU boundaries, it's
(23:34):
definitely the, you know, the targets that we have put out as
Europeans about reducing CO2 emissions that push companies to
work with reduced. And that's, that's one of the
that's kind of the umbrella. It's a scenario background that
(23:56):
we're working within. But then singularly companies
that we have for sure also economically are looking for
some extra revenue because you know, you're today you're
throwing out or you're almost paying to have food residues and
(24:17):
production by products to be picked up and then upcycled or
recycled. And then, you know, another day
reduced can buy them from you ata small, you know, price.
And then you can actually increase your, your revenue.
And that is a scenario that, of course will become more relevant
(24:39):
when the company will also increase its volumes, right?
So that that's also part of the picture.
But definitely optimizing production cycles and production
chains in a large company is of great interest to to to increase
(25:00):
revenue mostly, yeah. And to also be able to blame
that there is work being done towards, you know more
responsible food production system.
But I think the economical factor is definitely the leading
one. If and if and if those numbers
can make sense when projected byvolumes attached and with, you
(25:24):
know, the years to come, then then you know there will be a
collaboration that is going to lead to some fruitful results.
Yeah, definitely. And I think I think that's how
it should be because a lot of companies when they go about
sustainability, I feel the economic part gets left behind
when it comes about. I mean, of course, the big food
companies, that's their first thing in mind, which is why the
new ideas have to answer that question early on.
(25:45):
So that it doesn't if as long asit's economically viable, it
will be sustainable in the longer, longer chain of the
game. You know, and I mean, my reason
for these questions was also because I feel to the beginning
of the podcast, how you spoke about your food career as
somebody growing up, moving on from chemistry to learning food.
I feel the image of somebody listening again, a lot of people
listen this on just an audio. So I feel I feel that somebody
(26:06):
who also listens a lot of podcasts, it's very difficult to
understand profiles when it's about a career transition.
So now we've spoken about your chef past, we've spoken about
your current job, you know, which is very technical, a lot
of business side to it. Also, even though your role is
technical, it, it requires a lotof, yeah, understanding the
whole food system, especially inyour company, how it works.
And for me now as somebody who'slistening and has heard about
(26:28):
this chef, we've we've skipped the part where you've also taken
some sort of academic degree into getting into this role, you
know. So tell us about that.
How was the masters in studying in Copenhagen?
Why Copenhagen? Because we also know the Danish
education system happens to be, if I'm if I'm not wrong, it's
kind of economically viable for Europeans because I think they
have they have scholarships and ways to make it cheaper, right.
(26:50):
Was it that was it because of Copenhagen being a leader in
this in this field or what what made you end up doing?
But I. Think, you know, just to to give
it one more step before like thecuriosity of understanding where
does this food that I'm working with today in a kitchen comes
from and how was it farm? Was it organic agriculture or
(27:14):
biodynamic? We does the restaurant know the
farmer? We're all questions that I was
curious and and motivated to answer at some point or another.
And so actually when I was out in Uruguay, I had applied for a
bachelor's education in Norway, which I got accepted and
(27:35):
actually ended up moving over there to pursue a bachelor's in
environmental and development studies.
So that it was a very broad picture about, you know, food
systems included, but also politics of food, politics of
development subsidies, kind of working with NGOs.
They gave me like, you know, broad strokes about kind of how
(27:58):
to work fun, the world functionswhen, you know, economical and
political and and community interests are at stake.
But I was missing the, the food,the deep food education.
That's why I went to Copenhagen after, after, after having this
very broad, you know, education in, in the environmental studies
(28:22):
and in Copenhagen, you know, theidea was to pursue the masters
in food innovation health, to kind of narrow down my technical
side to food flavours and to kind of also the business
aspects of, of what it means to maybe start your own business.
And, and as you said, I mean, I was interested in Copenhagen
(28:45):
because the university is free for Europeans.
You actually, I mean, it's free.And if you're working 10 to 12
hours a week in a business, you actually get also some subsidies
from the state to kind of get byon a monthly basis because it is
(29:06):
very expensive. But also I was interested in
coping and because as a chef, you know, at at core, I was
really kind of burning to experience first hand this
Nordic food culture movement that that started, you know, a
few years before with, with restaurants like Noma.
(29:30):
But even before that, other pioneers in, you know, making
the most of environments like the Scandinavian one, which were
not necessarily valued much in the gastronomical scene.
So those were kind of the motivations that that brought me
to to coping and then kind of pushed me to to make the most
(29:53):
out of this education. I mean, education is great, but
it isn't only like a tool for someone to understand better or
ask right questions. I think what really pushed me
was the network that I managed to create in those years.
And, and you know, landing the internship at Noma was a key
(30:14):
step to getting to reduced, right?
Because in August 2020, I was there with a friend of mine
doing the internship. And at the end of it, I, I was
offered a job in the fermentation lab, which I
pursued for about a year. So working only in the
(30:36):
fermentation kitchen, making misos, soy sauces, garams,
kombuchas, all sorts of like other ferments and, and
seasonings for the menu. And, and after about a year, I
decided to leave to finish and wrap up my master's because I
kind of put it on hold. I was, you know, I did a year of
(30:59):
master's studies and I got this internship and then I was off
for the job and, you know, I wasthinking, well, this is like a
massive opportunity for me. I'm also, I'm open to give up my
studies to stay in Noma and kindof do that career.
But then after about a year, I understood that, you know, I
actually needed to complete the,the degree and would have been
(31:21):
much more valuable for me in thelong run to have a master's
degree. And so I went back to studying
after about a year or so of Novafermentation.
And I completed that in a few months Later, the ex director of
fermentation and Noma, David Zilber, wrote to me on Instagram
(31:44):
saying, Hey, like, you know, I, I know a few, I know a couple of
Danish guys that are trying to start like a company where
fermentation and flavor and science are needed.
Would you be interested in that?And I said, yes, of course, I,
you know, put me in touch. I want to meet these guys.
(32:05):
And that's how it happened. And, you know, it was, I didn't
even know much David Zilber because he actually wasn't there
when I was at Noma. He had already left.
But for some, you know, contingencies and Copenhagen is
also a very small town, you know, it's people know each
other. He was like so nice to just
(32:26):
reach out. He, of course, probably knew a
little bit about my background with science and food merging
together in, in, in, in technical and not so technical
ways. And, and, and he was, you know,
put me in touch with Emil and William, who are the founders of
of, of reduced. And there we go.
Here is almost five years later.Get the add reduce though.
(32:51):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's a very curious part that you've taken.
I mean all of these things as you I mean you yourself, it's
been random, but also it's been very when you see it does the
puzzle does fit each other. But Lorence, I want to hear from
you like as somebody who left science that go into kitchen,
which again is a lot of science,but the kind of places you were
was driven more by flavor and and and and intuition, I think.
And then ending up in this masters going to Noma.
(33:14):
How, how did you think the scientific?
I would say more than scientific.
How did you think? How do you think the masters has
which gaps in your profile? Do you think the masters has
failed? Because again, doing the masters
and going to say ferment again, Noma Noma again, the way it
ferments, it's for somebody veryscience LED.
It's not the right way to do things.
It's what makes sense for Norma itself.
So again, the approach of fermentation is very different.
(33:36):
I think because of how chefs think.
They just fill the gaps how theycan.
They don't really follow a log book as much as as as science
would like them to. But what did the masters give
you that gave you that edge over, say, a regular chef you
know just knows to cook? Yeah.
But it's, it's again, it's, it'sa good question.
Unfortunately, still today, you know, it's, it's hard to provide
(34:00):
like a clearer answer to it because I really believe that
the, the masters and allowing myself to study for two years
was really an opportunity to kind of be flexible and open to
(34:20):
interests that would pop up during along that course.
And to be a bit more practical and, and, and, and specific.
The masters of food innovation and health at Copenhagen
University has a number of credits that are open for the
(34:40):
student to design at their own, let's say interest.
And so of course, myself as as astudent needed to reach out to
the labs or to a cool company that I was interested in and
convinced them to let me in to pursue that master.
(35:03):
Then I think that's the hard part.
So the the masters allowed me tokind of, you know, maybe fill
those interests and kind of get those network to that connection
because, you know, once you're done with the master, the
pressure builds in and like you need to work.
You're in Copenhagen and rent isreally expensive, so you need to
(35:23):
get a job quick. You don't have the time to write
emails and try to get, you know,in touch with people necessarily
when you're also, you know, yourpeers are starting to get their
careers going and and so on. That is one part.
So what did the master help me? What did the masters in
(35:46):
Copenhagen feel that I couldn't feel as a chef?
Well, the time I mean. Also, as a chef, you don't get
much time off and you eat standing up a lot of the times
and the breaks are like 20 to 30minutes and you're working 6-7
days a week. Now it changed, but you know,
there is there is still the rhythm.
(36:06):
It's pretty high. So the masters allowed me for
time and I really valued that because they did start working
as a as a chef. And I knew that time was such a
a precious resource. So I used it to get in touch
with people that I thought were interesting with professors that
maybe we're not teaching me, butyou know, had interesting
(36:28):
connections to the food, food seen in Copenhagen.
And the other part for sure was some of the elements of, of, of
entrepreneurship and innovation,right.
My master's was focused on innovation and health.
And so that part for sure was filmed from, from my
educational, let's say path thatand that I did not get as as a
(36:53):
chef. So knowing.
So what are the what, what, whatdoes the big industry look for
when they're innovating? What are maybe nutritional
components of foods that might be interesting for health in the
long term? And what do we need to change
about the current food system that seems to be not working
(37:16):
anymore, right. So, so those elements I managed
to pick up and of course fermentation then came in as an
answer because a lot of fermented foods are foods that
are maybe have more bioavailablenutrients and, and, and
elements. And as a company, as a startup,
you want to advertise and marketthese as something good and
(37:41):
something healthy. So I think these these two
components ultimately the masters help me with time,
putting time on my on my side and getting to reach out and
explore new things and also the more innovative nutritional
health aspects of making food and then having maybe putting a
(38:04):
business on top of that, runninga business based on food.
Yeah, yeah, I love what you've highlighted, Lawrence.
I mean, honestly, what he said about the time factor, I feel is
something many of us don't realize that how important, how
nourishing it could be to also be able to get in these circles
where you can network possibly for a better career, for better.
Just inspire yourself by other people having different
(38:25):
narratives about the food system, you know?
But another question I had for you, Lorenzo, was like, because
again, as I said before, the chef carrier, being a chef
itself is a lot about intuition.It's a lot about doing things
randomly, whereas R&D and when you have to especially scale a
product up, it's it's very planned.
So in this battle between craftsmanship of being intuitive
and developing things without boundaries to scaling up, what
(38:48):
do you think gets lost? Like when you want to translate
something as a chef, which part is the most difficult to
translate into a commercial product?
Especially with your experience now with reduced?
Yeah, it's a, it's a great question.
Which part? There are a few parts that that
makes it difficult to scale. Sometimes the eagerness to
(39:16):
process fails the upscaling cycle, the eagerness to for
example, roast a carrot and thenextract the flavours by doing
maybe ice clarification and thenadding a miso into that to
(39:37):
enhance the flavours. That already is way too
complicated for a start up or a company to upscale in, in, in
larger volumes, right? We're talking about a company
reduced that wants to go for thebig markets, for mass markets.
We're not doing necessarily our artisanal products.
(39:58):
Our approach is artisanal in a way that's the mission that we
have is to upscale an artisanal approach to like a mass
production facility. So we're not, we're not like the
small fermentary that sells in boutique stores or nice delis
(40:20):
around town. We want to sell, you know, over
the sea in the US. In Italy and possibly in India
and and other in Australia. So you need to simplify a lot at
the beginning of the process in order to avoid complications
(40:41):
while upscaling the, the, the, the process and the product that
that's one thing. And then the quality.
Quality is always like the challenge, right?
Like the flavors that you get ina test kitchen are hardly the
(41:01):
same when you produce them at 10or 100 times scale.
They're in soap. You know you need a lot of
analysis, aroma analysis, taste analysis that our flavour
scientists help us with. So when we develop a product, we
make it in a, you know, in A10 litre bottle or A5 litre bottle,
(41:24):
and then we break it down into its aroma composition, into it's
taste composition. So we can see how much of this
alcohol is present here, how much of glutamic acid is present
in my, you know, lab, lab bench prototype.
And then those values and that those profiles we try to
(41:46):
replicate at scale. And so we can see what are the
gaps in our own mind and taste when we produce at 500 liter or
at 5000 liters. And I think that's, that's the
the main challenge, yeah. I mean.
As you said, I feel, I feel measuring as you mentioned,
mentioned, even though it soundsboring and sounds like something
(42:09):
that limits us. I feel as, as chefs, especially
those who work in R&D, those area little bit different, like
little apart from restaurants, but still working in a creative
field. They find a lot of them who have
met and have a chat with find the logging and the calculating,
the measuring very boring and limiting.
And, and some of them actually say that makes them less
creative. But I feel in the end, that's
(42:29):
the only way to assure that you're constantly creative, and
not just creative out of, yeah, randomly out of the way, you
know? For sure.
No, I totally agree. But also, I mean, having the
details about your, your miso, your soy sauce, your fermented
paste is what makes that paste unique.
(42:50):
And so you cannot claim that youknow what you've done is
one-of-a-kind and it's not replicable because you know, you
have a series of food is, is chemistry and it's made of a lot
of components, aromas, paste component components that make
that food unique. And so knowing about them is
(43:14):
actually the only way, well a really good way to be able to
replicate those products that one is so proud of, of
developing 100. Percent, 100% and and Lorenzo,
like you have lived the life of being in academics, then being
in kitchens, then taking a break, getting time to study
again, now being in this, in this food tech world.
(43:36):
How would you say as somebody asas just purely about work life
balance and how your life is, istoday?
How do you see the life currently?
What what aspects would you highlight?
And was the restaurant life thatyou used to live a sustainable
like what do you see because youalso recently became a parent.
So do you see that would have been your reality right now?
How sustainable was it for you as as a person living that?
(43:57):
Life, yeah, for me, I, I need, Ineed balance between work and
personal life on a day-to-day. And when I was working at
restaurants back then, I was working maybe 6 days or five
days and for many hours in a row.
(44:19):
And I didn't have much personal,personal time off during, you
know, my Tuesday or my Wednesday.
And for me personally, that is very important because I need
balance throughout the, the week.
And you know, then I, you, you, you push yourself to make time
(44:42):
off even when you're working 1415 hours, but that ends up
straining you or straining me inthe long run.
And so I definitely couldn't have the life that I have today
if I kept being a chef. To answer your question pretty,
you know, quickly. And, and I think for me, it
(45:06):
would have been too hard to pursue the chefing career at
this point in, in life with, with, with a family, for
example. And also with the, the, the,
the, the rights that I get as anemployee of reduced compared to
(45:27):
what I would have got as a, as a, as a chef in the kitchen.
And I'm talking about, you know,workers rights and of course
paychecks. But, but also, you know, as I
told you earlier, I was allowed to take five months off from my
company to be with my newborn child.
(45:49):
And and that's an invaluable, let's say, opportunity that I
didn't hear restaurants to provide, let's say.
No, I have a doubt that. I mean, yeah, for sure.
Who were interesting and and I mean it's been a beautiful
journey. I mean listening to your I mean
I think we're going to keep on going to understand but but I
(46:12):
think we've broken down very well of how how your buildings
were into food how random in your own words how it was and
how you've found the spas which has found the right balance for
you. Also, I mean, you mentioned on
the form that we have for gueststhat you mentioned that you
would like to have a great impact on the bigger food
system. And I feel the broadcast itself
is the first step for people whobecause a lot of us when we look
(46:33):
if I would just go to your LinkedIn, I would say, you know,
Lorenzo does this technical job at a company I do not associate
a chef with. I just associate somebody who
goes to a food tech degree studies it.
It's just in spending in labs. So for me it's very important
with these with these episodes to make it real that these are
real people who were at kitchens.
There are real people who had careers like the ones listening
to it are having it right now and a transition is definitely
(46:55):
possible and viable, Lorenzo. But I would like to hear from
you. I think you would say it much
better than I could on what doesimpact in the food system.
When you mention it, you want tohave a positive impact.
What does it mean for you? And inspired by that, what would
you say to somebody who's listening?
You know, who is, who is listening, is aware about the
reality of working in restaurants, has possibly been
inspired by a story like yours. What should they do to be able
(47:17):
to realize whatever their dream is outside the restaurant food
system? Yeah.
Well, that's I can answer the first one, the first question
pretty unfairly. And and for me as a chef and as
a the head of R&D at, at Reduce today making an impact in the
(47:39):
food system means bringing, you know, artisanally produced chef
produced products to the market and into available market,
right. Accessibility is a key term
here. We're not doing daily deli
products or boutique kind of products, but impact is impact
(48:01):
at large and large scale. So that for me is products that
are additive free, that are wholesome, there is no chemicals
in them that taste like something that you can relate
to. And I think it's that that's,
that's what impact means for me.And I think it's, it's, it's a
(48:21):
very hard, in fact objective to,to pursue at this point in time.
And I think for people that are listening, I, I said a lot of
time, random and circumstantial events that happened to me while
I dropped out from, from dropping out to, from university
(48:44):
in Rome in 2013 to getting a joband, and reduced.
I said many times how random things kind of happen in your,
in your day-to-day and, and the bridges start connecting to each
other. But ultimately, I, you know, to
those listening, I would say that there is in US something
(49:04):
that drives us on a day-to-day that makes up wake up in the
morning and do our job, you know, with passion and, and, and
drive and motivation. And I think I had that too.
And I have it too still today. And I think is, is to follow
that because there isn't actually no random, no random
(49:28):
event, there isn't things happenbecause we kind of create those
opportunities. And so following that internal
gut feeling or that motivation, whatever it is that makes us
feel good and, and, and you know, upbeat about our, our
day-to-day is, is, is definitelywhat to pursue.
(49:48):
And then what brought me here today, regardless of the
educational background or, or, you know, the experiences, is,
is, is kind of believing in, in,in these steps as formative
steps as something that we need to do and not being afraid of,
of changing or taking the, the more the less conventional paths
(50:10):
here. Definitely.
I mean, I couldn't say it, Ben Lorenzo, and I've loved
everything you've shared. Especially for me, the biggest
highlight was what you said about making accessible change
because again, a lot of these products that you're talking
about can somehow make like feelthat they make impact, but then
make it just within a bubble. So I feel the great, the greater
vision that reduced has of making this accessible for the
masses, I feel is a beautiful vision and I feel your your
(50:32):
episode has been super inspiration for everybody
listening. I can just speak for myself.
I mean, how you've proven this part and also the words that you
said about following that instinct and going ahead with it
and believing in yourself to make those steps.
I mean, it did happen randomly that you ended up at normal.
But again, it, it requires the guts and the instinct to, you
know, knock those doors to put your foot into them, however
(50:53):
difficult they are, they are. And, and that the the collective
impact of those events causes what looks random today.
I think it's, it's, it's, it's because of a lot of intentional
steps taken towards that dream. So, Lorenzo, thanks so much
again for making time on this special leave that you have for
me on the podcast. And for sure, we hope to stay
connected. Yeah, for sure.
Thank you so much for working. It was a pleasure to to share
(51:16):
and and hopefully you know this this will lead to a lot of other
meaningful conversations. So I wish you a really good day
and nice to meet you. Thank you so much.
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