October 7, 2025 • 34 mins
On my birthday (October 7), I turn the mic on myself and share the real origin story of Fugitive Chefs.
I grew up in Bombay, studied hospitality because culinary schools didn’t exist, and realized the “chef” track in India was mostly management in a chef’s coat—not cooking. A misread email led me to an internship at Noor (Córdoba), then to Mugaritz where food is built around ideas and philosophy. A full scholarship to MAD Academy took me to Copenhagen; a winter stage at Noma became a contract by week two.
Alongside the dreams came immigration stress, burnout, bike accidents, and a moment I called “Off-Line.” I stepped away from restaurants, worked on a permaculture farm, and eventually found a new home in R&D at the Basque Culinary Center, consulting across health, industry and food systems. That’s where the podcast was born: to spotlight chefs who leave the brigade and still build meaningful lives in food.
If you’re at a crossroads, this one’s for you.
In this episode:
• Bombay roots, hospitality school, and why I left India
• Noor & Mugaritz: philosophy over luxury—an example dish that messes with value and craft
• MAD Academy scholarship → Copenhagen → Noma contract in week two
• Immigration, burnout, and going “Off-Line”
• Farming, regeneration, and finding impact beyond the pass
• Why Fugitive Chefs exists and what’s next
Say hi / share your story: @fugitivechefspodcast
If this helped you, please rate the show ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and share it with a friend.
Chapters
00:00 Intro: Birthday & why this is a solo episode
02:05 Bombay roots, festivals, family & food
06:30 Hospitality school in India → “chef” as management path
10:55 Writing to Noor, the accidental internship in Córdoba
13:30 Paris stage, back to India, then returning to Spain
15:55 Mugaritz: philosophy over producers, the “fake saffron” lamb story
18:40 First Indian hire, challenges & what Mugaritz taught me
19:55 MAD Academy scholarship (Environment & Sustainability)
21:45 Winter closure → Copenhagen → Noma four-week stage
23:00 Week two: offered a contract at Noma
24:45 Hours, elderflower nights, and the cost of excellence
26:15 Immigration spiral, London incident, “Off-Line”
30:05 Permaculture farm, healing & rethinking my path
31:40 R&D at Basque Culinary Center: impact beyond the pass
34:20 Why Fugitive Chefs—building a community
37:30 Call to action & birthday sign-off
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So hi everyone. Welcome back to Fugitive Chef's
podcast. If you're new here, I'm Furkhan,
an R&D chef and a gastronomic consultant based in San
Sebastian in Spain, and I work at the Bass Culinary Center at
the moment. Usually this podcast is about
conversations. It's with chefs and food
professionals who have stepped outside the traditional
restaurant system to kind of forge their own part of what
(00:22):
else could somebody do as a chefbut not working in restaurants.
So today's a little different actually.
If you see, I don't have any headphones on.
There's no interviews on this episode.
It is actually my birthday. It is October the 7th when this
episode will come out. And I thought, what about
instead of interviewing someone else, I could kind of turn the
mic to myself and share my own story.
(00:42):
So think of this as an episode of an origin story, the story of
how did I become fugitive chefs in the 1st place, right?
So I grew up in India. My name is not really an obvious
giveaway, but I was born in India, in Bombay specifically
and food over there for me growing up was always at the
centre of everything of festivals.
I mean India happens to have a lot of festivals and I grew up
(01:03):
in a in an Iranian Muslim family, but of course my
building were the only Muslims. So my most festivities were of
course RE then other festivals within the Muslim community, but
also a lot of festivals the Hindus have and all of them
associated with food. So growing up, especially in
Bombay, I think Bombay is such aunique city because a lot of
people from India across different regions, a fit of how
(01:26):
big it is end up in Bombay to kind of make it in their career
or study or with aspirations to to make something bigger.
And that also attracts a lot of different sort of people with
different eating habits, different spice levels,
different affinity of things. And the food culture is very,
very interesting. So I grew over there and I
basically was in a family where men also cooked, which is very,
(01:47):
which is I would say at that point was not very common
because most conversations with friends from school or who made
your Tiffin this afternoon or seeing my neighbors, mostly
women cooking and seeing my father used to cook very often.
My uncle cooked very often as well, who we grew up very close
to. And also I didn't really grew up
with my grandparents. I don't really have this grand.
(02:09):
My grandmother taught me to cookthat sort of story.
But I mean, my grandparents passed away on my father's side
pretty young when he was very young and but he was adopted by
his aunt and she spoke a lot about cooking.
So I did eat some of her food but didn't literally learn with
her to cook. But I heard from her a lot of
stories of back when my grandparents were around, India
was still a colony and they werepart of this nawabs, Nawabs,
(02:34):
which is possibly literally translated to princely states.
So India was never one country. It was many princely states
governing their own sort of governance, all outsiders.
As I said, my Iranian family coming from there and the
British government kind of bought these princely states
together on doing services for them.
But without diving too much intothat, the reason I share this is
because of course they had a lotof privilege and access to
(02:55):
hunting or cooks from all over the region to come cook for them
and throwing big fees for, for, for British politicians who were
visiting at that point. So I, I used to hear a lot of
stories from her and she was herself a very unique person
because she came from Kalimpong,which is North East of India,
very close to Darjeeling. Maybe you know it because maybe
you have had recently a Darjeeling black tea.
(03:16):
She came from that region. She was a protection Christian
herself. So also an interreligious
marriage back in the day, a pretty so from her was a lot of
cultural stories and how food culture exists in her part of
India where they speak Nepalese and very influenced by the
Chinese cuisine, you know, the Nepalese Tibetan cuisine.
And then her coming to Bombay and seeing this different
cuisine, you know, so cut short from there, that's where I would
(03:38):
say the first interest for cooking came in.
A lot of careers came in the wayI was considering engineering,
like every every Indian, I have to say I was considering
politics. I briefly worked in a political
party campaigning for them. I was volunteering a lot with
activism and also seriously considering Navy, military,
army, one of these defence sort of jobs for a different reason,
(04:00):
which I don't think is the idea of the podcast, but somehow I
ended up doing hospitality management.
So when you think of being a chef, and that came from during
school vocations and things likethat, watching Kitchen
Confidential a lot from Anthony Bourdain.
Hi, reading Kitchen Confidentiala lot and watching No
Reservations. So both from Anthony Bourdain
Kitchen Confidential on one sidebeing his version of what he saw
(04:22):
kitchen life as, which I never really got to see of that amount
of violence or that amount of drug abuse or that amount of I
don't know if you know the kitchen, if you know, if you're
a chef listing, you know what I'm talking about.
But yeah, it was it was pretty interesting to see that side of
his kitchen career was very interesting.
I think to read about for many chefs like me, medium, medium
raw or even Kitchen confidentialand then more reservations were
(04:43):
very interesting as a chef travelling all over the world.
And that was also pretty cool tosee how different cultures cook.
That was some of my interests. And I thought, OK, you know
what, this could be a great career to be a chef.
And the only part at the point Ihad was to go study hospitality
management. Because hotel management or
hospitality management is the career people do if you want to
become a chef in India, which iskind of rare, but very, very big
(05:06):
back in India. So most good restaurants at that
point existed in hotels, which is changing now.
And at that point I studied at that school called the Ayicha,
Mumbai or the other catering college, one of the first
hospitality institutes in all ofSoutheast Asia.
Started back I think 80 years ago when India was just a very
young country and learnt a lot of there.
Learnt I would say not a lot of cooking, but a lot of yeah,
(05:29):
management skills, a lot of people skills.
Also learnt a lot from my peers who were very passionate people.
Learnt how hotels work. And I think it, it, it got me to
move to good chefs, good, good people with the great basics,
right, and also gave me access to kind of right to restaurants.
And that's where I first startedworking at restaurants.
(05:49):
I briefly worked at this place called The Table, by then then
run by chef Alex Sanchez from Bombay, who had just come back
from per SE, a French Laundry and places like that.
And so I used to spend some timethere doing vacations sometimes
during evenings after school. Also briefly spend some time at
Bombay canteen at another place in in a very classical Indian
restaurant as well. And I'll just run through fast
(06:12):
through this. But that was kind of my college
life and the reason I left Indiaimmediately after college.
So 2017 I graduate from IHI Mumbai from that college I spoke
about and I don't stay in India because all the prospective
carriers I had. So I was not a very bad student.
I was pretty good student, I think.
And I got a lot of these interviews which you have these
(06:33):
carrier placements to the campusand most of them were management
training programs. So for those who don't know,
management training program is basically you will be working
for a hotel for a two years closed contract where they will
basically teach you if you're ina in a kitchen management
training program. They will basically teach you
everything about their their ethos, their vision, the mission
(06:54):
of the company, what principles,say a core group or Marriott or
Hyatt, they work and how the company culture is, what kind of
menus they have, what kind of outlets they have.
Because most of these hotels have say an X outlet, which
exists in 10 restaurants and they're kind of trying to
maintain that standard. So they teach you all those
skills, They teach you a lot of management, team management
(07:15):
skills. And at the end of this two year
period, you become a sous chef or a junior sous chef possibly.
And in few years you'll be a head chef.
To me that at that point for loss of words, I found them very
stupid because how could I as a 20 year old go through a two
year management training programmade by the hotel where they
kind of groom you to be that position.
But still, I found that a littlemessy because I had done some
(07:38):
internships at hotels, at Grand Hyatt in Mumbai, for example.
And I had seen how these people who are management trainees are
treated by the real staff who's been there for years and
learning how to cook. Or they are pretty established
cooks. And then they just have somebody
who's come out of culinary school kind of being their boss,
but actually only making duty rosters, making staff schedules,
making uniform orders for them or yeah, so possibly maybe doing
(08:01):
some menu development and thingslike that.
But I didn't really find that interesting.
And going back literally during my college time, I had written a
very interesting letter to Chef Paco Morales in southern Spain
and Cordova. And my letter to him was a
little about how was he? I was very interested, as I
said, in my family's history. I was very interested into
cuisines, which all restaurants which explore history as a
cuisine. And he was doing a restaurant,
(08:23):
but still today at 3 Michelin star restaurant in Cordova
called Noor. And he was creating this project
where you eat, yeah, you basically eat a 10th century
Spain at that point. Today.
I think he advances every year alittle bit on how Spain has
evolved. And at that point Cordoba or
Cordoba, Andalus was the capitalof the Islamic world.
So the Arab world, it's capital was Cordoba.
(08:45):
At one point in it's golden period, the Arabs bought to
Spain paper writing, a lot of novelty in terms of education.
There's some great architecture as well.
I mean South of Spain has a lot of architecture today.
Today they are converted to cathedrals, but these were like
mosquitoes or libraries, universities built by the Arabs.
And he was doing cooking from back then.
So for you to get perspective, what know is imagine a Spain
(09:05):
which doesn't have tomato, doesn't have chocolate, doesn't
have corn, doesn't have chilies,doesn't have a lot of
ingredients which today make pork.
I mean, you can't think about itin the Arab world.
So all these ingredients which today make Spain are very new if
you look at world history. And he was doing that cuisine.
So I was super interested in hisproject.
I saw one of his, he has done a seminar in the UK, so I'd see
(09:27):
that on YouTube. And I said, you know what, I
want to write to this guy just to ask, how does he do it?
And it would be something interesting for me.
He interpreted that because it was in leisure in English.
Spain doesn't happen to have a lot of people who speak English.
And he interpreted that as an application for internship.
And he said, oh, great to hear from you.
For Khan, nice to know you want to apply for a starch.
I didn't even know at that pointwhat a starch is.
(09:48):
I was like, starch stage. How do you, I mean, didn't I
read it a stage? That's how it's in English.
And I didn't get what that meant.
And I Googled and found out whata starch is, but I was like, oh,
this is not what I wanted. Like, let me just ignore it.
So this was first year, second year of college.
And then when I finished Collegein the third year and was out of
options to work in India, I saidyes to this internship, ended up
(10:11):
in Spain. So I spent a few months there.
I spent like half a year in Cordoba.
Then I later moved on to restaurants in Paris because
there was one restaurant by chefPascal Barber, which I wanted to
always work at. I did a stage over there as
well. I came back to India, figured
out that India is not going to be somewhere I'm going to make a
cardio because it still felt that I'll be struggling a lot to
express what I want or kind of Ihad seen how great things can be
(10:36):
and I felt like it felt like a bargain to be to be in India, or
it felt like, yeah, going a notch below.
So I struggled a year in India collecting money and came back
to Spain. So I came back for another very
short Stars in Mugaritz. Very subsequently to that I got
hired at Mugarets. I was there in 2019 internship
and in 2021 I was working for them.
(10:57):
And in this period of 29/20/2019to 20/21, I learned a great deal
about yeah, I wouldn't say food because if you're more Mugarets,
a little Mugarets isn't the place you go just to eat.
Of course you can have a great meal over there, depends which
season, which year it is. There are some great plates from
there, but it's mostly a very provocative psychological
(11:19):
philosophical experience. It's a restaurant which works on
oxymorons. So they explore things like
ugly, beautiful or extremely crazy, but extremely delicious
at the same time. And I think the best way to
explain you Muguritz is possiblyexplaining one of the dishes
that I I did over there, right? So there was this dish which had
(11:41):
like a lamb, a small stake of lamb, pretty pretty small, I
think 1 biter and it was served with a saffron sauce.
And next to the plate you had like 2 bowls of saffron.
One of them was actually saffron.
The other one was Basque chili, which was dried and chopped
julienne to a way that it exactly looked like saffron.
And there was equal volume of saffron for one gram of saffron.
(12:02):
So that means that there was a yeah, it was a lot of precision
cutting over there. And the waiter came to you,
served your lamb and said, you know, this is not the best lamb
you'll have because there are great people who do great lamb
dishes. But this is more about the
humble sauce that you see and the saffron on the side because
you have two bowls of saffron. One of them is actually saffron.
One of them is a chili, which has been cut by 30 interns who
come from all over the world. And every day we do 30 minutes
(12:25):
of this in the morning together as a team to produce enough
saffron, enough of this fake saffron.
So today, where do you put your value into 1g of the most
expensive spice or 1g of 30 people's work who have come all
the way to do this? So a restaurant like this, which
challenges a lot of stereotypes,it's very provocative, as I
said. And yeah, the most creative
(12:46):
restaurant I have worked at personally because it goes
beyond techniques, it goes beyond machines, it goes beyond
molecular gastronomy and principles like that.
It goes deeper into philosophy and exchanging ideas of of
human, yeah, the human brain breaking down into smaller
principles which can be then applied to dishes.
So, yeah, super cool restaurant.Has worked there over three
(13:07):
years and had a really good time, of course with it's own
tough moments. I mean, it's, it's not easy.
I was the first Indian to be hired in that restaurant.
Immigration, of course, that's come in the way when at least
you're hired, like being an intern I think is a little more
easier. A lot of Indians have been
interns at restaurants like these.
But getting hired there and having your paperwork done, it
was quite a challenge. But yeah, it was a great
experience. During my time at Mogaditz, I
(13:29):
also attended MAD Academy, whichis this Academy started by
Renard Sepi and Magnus Nilsson from Fabrikan, and they
basically have these crash courses for business.
What business and leadership is the first one?
And the second one is called Environmental Sustainability.
I was in the environmental Sustainability cohort and I was
chosen as one of the few people to receive like A6000 Euro
(13:51):
scholarship to attend America Academy in Copenhagen, through
which I met people who were likeclimate scientists, people who
were first generation farmers, people who do zero roast
cooking. For example.
Douglas McMaster from Silo was one of my lecturers and learned
a great deal about how Denmark and how the full system in
Denmark works in a sustainable way.
(14:13):
That was a very interesting phase of my career I feel.
And just after that I came back to Mugarit, tried applying a few
things, didn't really work greatwith the team.
I feel the restaurant itself is,has done so many things for so
long that it makes it makes any changes.
And that was I think my first wake up call to sort of want to
transition from Muguritz. Being in Copenhagen was a great
exposure. I felt like in Muguritz, I was
(14:33):
at a point where I was super comfortable.
I felt I was, I was doing great in my career and I felt like I
would like to be a little more challenged.
I felt like the conversations I had in Copenhagen for the one
week I was there were very challenging.
Some of them were terms I had never heard.
And I was like, I would love to be in, in that sort of
environment where, you know, I've, I feel like I have a
conversation. I have to go home, write down
things or make notes or Google what that was.
(14:56):
So I was kind of, yeah, attracted to that in, in a way,
the energy of Copenhagen. And Mugaritz is also a funny
restaurant because it shuts for six months and works for six
months. So six months they shut, two of
them literally shut and four of them doing R&D events and a mix
of things. And one of the seasons I was
like, you know, I want to do something else during winter.
(15:17):
And I actually drove to Copenhagen and I was going to
end up with Alchemist originallybecause I knew some people back
there. I said, you know, I would love
to get some exposure into Alchemist and also see first
hand how these restaurants work.Norma, of course we all know
about it, some people in the industry and I thought that
would not be possible. I thought it was not even
(15:37):
approachable because I feel so many people apply to Norma.
And for me, just last moment, just showing up over there
wouldn't cut the budget. They have a budget in terms of
time and attention they can givepeople.
Alchemist basically had, they'vegiven me an apartment to show up
on 21st of December if I'm not wrong.
And then they had a case of COVID.
COVID was still a thing back then.
In 21 they said, you know what, just come after Christmas
(15:59):
because we don't want to get newpeople into the into the control
atmosphere. We have to not risk another
shutting down or cancelling diners.
And I said, OK, that's cool, that's fine.
And I wrote to Noma to connect with somebody in Noma who could
guide me. I can do a one month internship.
That's all I can afford, but I would also like to see if I
could be hired in the team. And so I had gone into the
conversation of internship telling them that I would love
(16:22):
to have like a test at the end of the month to see if I could
be hired. Was just actually myself
checking the market, checking ifI'm if I cut out for a
restaurant like that, you know. So yeah, they were very kind of
accept me And the first week, the second week of January, I
started in Noma, had a great time over there.
Opened my eyes too. Yeah, the world is so different.
I feel in Mugarita Noah, becauseMugarita ran with four, five of
(16:45):
us at that point in 21 as hired employees in the service
kitchen, 3 or 4 of them in R&D and 30 interns.
So the proportion was one is to 10 from or like 1 is to 8 for
chef hired chef to an intern. Whereas in normal they had like
2022 chefs in the service kitchen, they had six of them in
the R&D, they had a fermentationlab.
They had like people hired and doing the job and then they also
(17:07):
had interns, of course, to do a normal us pay interns back then,
it was not not paid. They had accommodation, which
they paid for and stuff. But not my thing to get into.
But yeah, the great exposure I feel Norma, even as an intern,
the first week was super interesting.
I say first week because yeah, second week of Norma, a lot of
people fall sick of code. Again, the code ended up being
(17:28):
my guardian Angel of sorts because I didn't fall sick.
I got COVID later in later beginNorma hired for the second week
itself. I was in the Section 4.
They call it at that point Normajust works name like they're
called section 121234. That's there's no real I would
say yeah, it's not divided like first course, second course and
things like that. So this my section had three
(17:51):
people and me like 3 hired staffand me as the intern in the
first week. First week we had some trial
runs. The new menu was starting for
Ocean season 2022. And the second week suddenly
there is there is just one person from the hired employee.
So three of them, two of them got COVID.
And the second day of Week 2 there was nobody.
It was me alone in the section, the intern who had somehow
(18:13):
managed to learn all the recipesand had to give the service
together with three chefs from the R&D department who of course
do the menu because they built it.
And that gave me like a very good exposure into, yeah, people
who've been years and Norma working for them, travelling
with them, doing projects for them, doing events for them.
And they're working closely withall of them.
Like people like Thomas Fraber with Nate, with, yeah, so many,
(18:36):
so many cool people. Merrick from Norma was super
interesting. And I feel like they put in a
good word for me. And at the end of week too,
Kenneth, the head chef at that point who's today heading
fermentation, he called me to his office and said, you know
what, We do not need to wait twoweeks.
We'll actually like to offer youthe contract of being a chef at
Noma. And yeah, I didn't have to give
(18:58):
much thought because, I mean, ofcourse I had a signed contract
to go back to in Mugaritz in 20 to around April.
But I was like, this is was a lifetime.
I mean, so many people walk fromthe doors of Noma every day that
I can't reject an offer like this.
And also it was exactly what I was looking for.
So that was my Noma journey. It was a great, great restaurant
to work at. It went very well for me.
(19:20):
I enjoyed the the year I was there.
But at some point also I was, I felt the hours I worked.
The amount of days you worked isa little crazy over there
because you sort of have as, as an employed chef, you have keys
to the restaurant. So even if the restaurant shuts
2 days, but if you are serving something on a Tuesday service,
which has to marinate for say 24hours, it is assumed you will
take your keys, enter the restaurant and prep it.
(19:41):
So nobody will tell you to work all the hours, but you will in
summer season when there's elderflower all around.
Copenhagen and normal with Noir Projects now sells elderflower
kombucha. The vinegar on the menu, we had
elderflower syrup. We had so many things with
elderflower. That means every day after the
shift, after the clean down at 11:30, all of us stayed until
like 2:00 AM during summer to pick, pick these elderflowers
(20:01):
like to, to remove them from their chills and freeze them or
store them or make some things out of that.
So there was a lot. Hours worked if I honestly got
burnt out at that. In that period I also had some
personal issues going on with life.
I don't think it was just work, I was, I think it was majorly
personal issues and most of it being the anxiety from the
paperwork in Denmark. Denmark was slowly turning into
(20:21):
a very right wing, the not immigrant friendly.
I mean which country is immigrant friendly?
But Denmark was at the worst endof that scale.
And Ukraine war happened at thatpoint as well, which led to
cancellation of all sort of priorities for any type of visa.
The Ukrainians were the only ones who got priority to get
their visas answered. And I was in a limbo where I
(20:43):
could work legally in Denmark, but my application of residence
was still being studied. So Denmark lets you work while
they study your application. And I also had an episode in
London where I was flying through London to Austria and
back to Copenhagen. And I, I got stuck for
questioning in London and I was made to stay in London for three
days by the immigration because they couldn't figure out why am
I working in Denmark when I do not have a Danish residence.
(21:04):
I have a Spanish residence. So anyways, Long story short, I
don't think this is the place, but also if somebody wants to
know more about this, write to me on Instagram, leave a comment
under the episode. We also on YouTube so you can
write to me there. And I would love to dive deeper
into if that should be an episode, you know, of how
immigration issues have been on my way and still on my way right
now actually at the moment as I speak to you, I've just come
(21:25):
back from an Foreign Office appointment this afternoon.
So yeah, if you want to speak about that, feel free.
There's someone here you can speak to.
But yeah, so Norma, at that point in August of 2022, I
decide August, September, aroundthat period, I was like, yeah,
this is not going to be a long term plan.
Also, I got a letter from the Danish immigration saying that I
would be reported if I don't leave or in the next one month.
(21:49):
And I could have avoided that and I could have made things up
which would let me be in Denmark.
And also Noma was planning to goto Japan and stuff, which would
have made things easier. But I realized it was like a
wake up call what happened in London, that this is not going
to be a place I can live. And Spain is a much secure
option because I had residents over there.
So it's a long time. And that's when I somehow spoke
to Noma and Renee Kenneth Thomas.
(22:11):
The whole team was super supportive.
They, yeah, they supported me all through the way.
They said they also realized that being going back to Spain
for me is the most smartest decision, even though it means
me not working for Noma. And they helped me financially.
They helped me by giving me all the space I needed to take that
decision. And so, yeah, I had to quit the
job at Noma. I was in sort of a limbo.
I didn't want to work for restaurants anymore.
And that's where my journey of afugitive chef, which we are now
(22:34):
around 20 minutes into the podcast.
And I'm now getting to the pointwhere, you know, I decide to be
a fugitive chef. But it was not a very active
decision. I would say the decision, yes,
was to not work at restaurants because I was like, OK, I have
seen Norma. It's not like, it's not like, I
mean, I don't want to be pretentious and say that there
was nothing more for me to work at or there was no more places
where I could learn. But I was like, I have done more
(22:55):
good. It's I have done Norma.
I've seen a fair share of fine dining restaurants in a gate.
Those are just one type of restaurants.
Of course, there's a lot more ofrestaurant options or caterings
or private chef. A lot of things I could have
looked at if I wanted to continue being in the kitchen.
But I also realized that there should be, there must be more
out there of what I can learn. And I was, yeah, kind of
frustrated to just be in Copenhagen because also anybody
(23:16):
you talk to in Copenhagen is just talking about food in our
bubble of, of chefs, you know. So I went to southern Germany
actually to do a roofing, which is a work away roofing, whatever
you call it, like, yeah, doing organic farming as a volunteer,
staying on a farm in southern Germany, which was like an apple
farm, but they also had a permaculture vegetable field.
(23:36):
And I was working on that learning permaculture,
regenerative farming, also principles like bio like
composting, bio toilets, learning all the insect life,
which also works in these microclimates in these in these
farms. I was learning a lot over there
and I was still like kind of thinking what should I do?
What could be next? And my first thing in my head
(23:57):
was I might have to study. So I was pretty sure that if I
want to change my career, this is very important for those
listening that my first thoughtswere I have to study something.
I have to study maybe a masters,I have to possibly study if I'm
interested in philosophy, for example, I have to study that
from scratch or anthropology as the food anthropology was very
interesting for me. I thought maybe I could study
that. And there was my initial
thoughts and I had a chat with one of my ex colleagues.
(24:19):
So if she's listening out there,Fran, I hope, I hope she's doing
well in Catalonia, has a great restaurant right now.
She used to be the R&D in, in Mugaritz.
And I spoke to her like, what else could be out there?
You know, 'cause I thought like an R&D job is something which
could be far from the kitchen ofthings that are not aligned with
me anymore, but still within food, something that I would
(24:40):
like to work with. And she said, yeah, you could
look at place like Bascovery Centre, look at restaurants.
And the Bascovery Centre thing was interesting because I
myself, as I said, I have a degree in hospitality
management. I do not have masters in
gastronomy or, I don't know, bachelors in gastronomy and
things like that. So when I, I saw this one job
posting for an R&D chef in gastronomy in Basque Culinary
Centre, my first thoughts were it's a job for somebody who
(25:02):
makes like course curriculum because it's a culinary school.
That's all I knew about it. I thought they make yeah, course
curriculums or workshops for people to, to learn gastronomy.
And I just applied for it. I had a few round of interviews
while I was at the farm. So I remember driving to Munich
to sit at an Internet Cafe and be able to be on an online,
yeah, video conference with John, who's currently leading my
(25:23):
team and the HR Rep at Buses Curry Center, and they'll
explain me the job of that. The Bus Curry Center has this
technological center, which is BC Innovation today called Go
with Tech Center with the new building they're constructing in
the center of the city. And this place basically
consults food companies, createsnew products, works with the UN
for all organizations like those, creates strategies for
(25:44):
governments, for tourism ministries and how gastronomy
can be a motor for tourism and also does a lot of projects with
health systems. So like with diabetic patients
with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, all these diseases which are,
which do not really have a cure to them, but it's lifestyle
changes which are subsequently the the way to have a better
life while you have these these health issues.
So that sounded very interestingto me.
(26:06):
I felt like that is completely in in the plan of the things I
was looking for. And yeah, I went ahead with the
process. They were very, yeah, they were
very quick about the decision and spoke about hiring me.
I moved to San Sebastian in Spain, back where I lived
before. And yeah, this is where I've
been for the past, I would say past three years.
Yeah, actually three years now. It's last when I joined here was
(26:29):
22nd of September. So it's been it's been three
years now. And then when I started working
this job, I kept starting meeting, meeting through this
job. A lot of people who were like
me, ex chefs, but yeah, having different careers after that.
One of them is John, of course, who's leading my team.
And his story is also on the oneof the episodes of of the
podcast. And so I met a lot of people who
(26:50):
were into education, science, activism, consulting,
storytelling, and using all these skills that we learn in
restaurants and feed in restaurants.
We learn a lot about how to think on your feet, how to think
quick when somebody's pregnant, who walks in or somebody has a
shellfish allergy and you have to suddenly change something on
the menu. I feel like these things have a
little respect. We give it to it or a little
(27:11):
importance we give to it. And we don't really have a paper
degree that backs this sort of aknowledge.
I feel chefs do have a lot of skills which could be useful.
And in that, in that phase of seeing all this in front of my
eyes, of opening my eyes to people like Juan Vargas who has
an oil company coming out of kitchens or Jade Gross, who used
to be a chef, then human rights activist, human rights lawyer in
(27:33):
New York for, for the UN and later starting a wine company or
meeting people like Dani Lasa. Dani Lasa was the R&D at
Mugaritz and he was the first person on the podcast back.
If you keep scrolling down on Spotify, you'll see his episode.
So when I'm when I saw people like these, I felt like I'd know
enough people to possibly tie the story together and inspire
those who are maybe stuck like Iwas after normal.
(27:57):
Because I felt that a lot of us who are in restaurants, and this
is important. There's a lot of us in
restaurants who are there because we like the job, we like
what we're doing and that those are people who should stay in
restaurant jobs. But there are many who feel like
this is all they can do or feel like this is a way to kind of
because everybody else has had it has it hard.
(28:19):
Or if you've read Anthony Bordenhaving it hard, or if you've
seen series of Al Nakami who's astupid chef in the Bear having
it hard. You also need to have it hard.
I don't think that's what I would suggest is the right way
to go. I feel that you should only be
in a place where you feel like you fit in.
And if you feel like you don't fit in or if you feel like
you're capable of more and not fitting in doesn't really mean
(28:39):
you are lesser. Maybe you're more than the place
and that's why you're not fitting in, because a small box
fits in a big box, but a bigger box doesn't fit in a small box.
So don't try to limit yourself. Don't try to make yourself
smaller. Don't try to limit your
passions, your dreams, your wants, your requirements, your
yeah, I don't know. I mean, channel your agony and
channel your capabilities into something in a format which most
(29:04):
respects you as a person. And I feel that's what I found
with my job. With my job, I mean it again has
problems like every job does, but for the majority part of it,
I feel this is the best point ofmy career where I, I do have a
team that I, I look up to. I do have a sort of principles
that I work with within my company which I which I respect.
I feel I do make a lot of impactin the work I do, be it from
(29:27):
consulting Toyota to make betterproducts in Japan, be it working
with the Jamaican cacao board tohelp sell like cacao products in
Europe. Be it creating the school menus
for Egyptian children in in schools.
Or be it yeah, creating a new product for people with
problems, digesting, people withproblem solving, be it making
(29:47):
like video recipes and meal plans for diabetic patients who
are in type 2 diabetes. So all these works that I do
right now, I feel in my world, in my little opinion, I feel
they have much more impact than serving 8090 diners a night when
you know that they have booked this three years ago.
They have shit load of money to spend on your menu.
They do not even care who is doing it.
(30:09):
They just care about the one person who is the face of the
restaurant and who is mostly themost creative person and yoga
and you as within that, within that, within that framework of a
restaurant is somebody who's just mimicking.
You just have to mimic. As Joseph yourself on the
podcast says, it's mostly monkeysee, monkey do.
It's not being in restaurants isnot being creative.
I feel being creative is taking your careers.
(30:32):
And like all the guests I've hadon the podcast, I feel those are
the most creative people I wouldsuggest you to listen to because
these people have taken their careers, taking their skills and
made that into something super interesting.
I look at Eddie Shepherd. Eddie Shepherd is today one of
the most celebrated vegan plant based, like a plant based menu
restaurants in in England. And he doesn't he doesn't even
have a restaurant. He works from the basement of
(30:52):
his house. Or look at look at Nick.
I mean, somebody who just pickedup foraging because it came
natural to him and is now selling that as a skill to a
restaurant, as a service, teaching people how to respect
their their atmosphere, winning prizes for it.
Be it. Yeah.
I mean, I've, I've had so many amazing people on this podcast
and I'm one of them. I mean, Dan himself, I feel Dan
came from Norma. His story is super interesting.
(31:14):
And now he does putting chefs into schools and I feel that is
much more impactful than whatever you can do in
restaurants. I mean, yes, there are
restaurants which are required to, to, to kind of Dr.
innovation and things like that.But I feel you need to, I don't
know. I think it's also very personal.
I mean, I don't want to bash restaurants, but for me, I feel
I do not, I mean, I do not come from a very privileged,
(31:35):
financially privileged or yeah, somebody.
I mean, I didn't, I didn't go torestaurants dining growing up,
which is why I cannot relate with people walking into Norma
every day and and booking it four years in advance.
So I, I enjoyed serving the people, meeting some great
people at Norma as well, But I feel I don't connect with the
people I was serving. And I feel today what I do, I'm
more connected to what I to the people I serve, to the people
(31:57):
who, who my impact reaches somehow, maybe not directly, but
I am, I'm, I'm proud of the workI do and I feel this.
This is the platform of the podcast that I created to also
kind of sure all of you listening out there, there's
much more out there. And yeah, it's it's a space to
reflect. Yeah, it was.
I mean, it's not about chasing stars or accolades.
It's about reclaiming the meaning of joy and connection to
(32:20):
food. And so where we are, I mean, I
mean, I'll, I'll not make this longer than it is, but I thought
this, this episode was importantthat those who listen to me and
those who follow understand which standpoint I come from the
how did I build this career? It's, it's not small on the base
of fancy degrees or a lot of investments and contacts or
knowing the right people. It's more because I knocked
(32:41):
every door and I especially those which I was interested in
entering. And if they didn't listen to me
once, I kept knocking twice and thrice and the fourth time.
And they ultimately will open. And they are there are questions
will be answered. There's a lot of people out
there who are very resourceful. And I mean, I'm more than happy
to anybody who's listening out there if they need any help.
Yeah. Maybe you're burnt out.
(33:01):
Maybe you're questioning whetherthis life is sustainable.
I just want you to know you're not alone.
So this community, this podcast is here for you and I would love
to hear your story. Message me on Instagram.
We are at at the rate Fugitive Chef's podcast.
Send me a voice note, send me a GIF, send me a sticker.
I mean, the way you want to communicate would be would be
perfect. If this episode specifically
resonates with you, please shareit with someone whom I need it.
(33:24):
And if you want to support the broadcast, I would say the best
way is to subscribe, rate it andpass it on.
So a lot of people I know you follow the podcast on Spotify
because I can see the numbers, but I don't have a lot of people
rating it. So if you're listening to this
podcast, especially this episode, if you liked it, I
would say please go to Spotify and you have these ratings.
The five stars give me a five star write comments on the
episodes because I feel it also gets very alone as a creator to
(33:47):
create content and just have like a one way communication.
I want this to be a community. I want to I'm looking for more
plans to how to connect all of you together on a platform where
we can have more interaction, possibly give you more resources
to to your questions. And yeah, thank you for
listening. Thank you for being a part of
this journey. And also thank you for kind of
celebrating this birthday with me, right?
So here's to another year of life, another another year of
(34:09):
telling stories that matter. I'm for Khan and this was
Fugitive Chefs podcast.
So hi everyone. Welcome back to Fugitive Chef's
podcast. If you're new here, I'm Furkhan,
an R&D chef and a gastronomic consultant based in San
Sebastian in Spain, and I work at the Bass Culinary Center at
the moment. Usually this podcast is about
conversations. It's with chefs and food
professionals who have stepped outside the traditional
restaurant system to kind of forge their own part of what
(00:22):
else could somebody do as a chefbut not working in restaurants.
So today's a little different actually.
If you see, I don't have any headphones on.
There's no interviews on this episode.
It is actually my birthday. It is October the 7th when this
episode will come out. And I thought, what about
instead of interviewing someone else, I could kind of turn the
mic to myself and share my own story.
(00:42):
So think of this as an episode of an origin story, the story of
how did I become fugitive chefs in the 1st place, right?
So I grew up in India. My name is not really an obvious
giveaway, but I was born in India, in Bombay specifically
and food over there for me growing up was always at the
centre of everything of festivals.
I mean India happens to have a lot of festivals and I grew up
(01:03):
in a in an Iranian Muslim family, but of course my
building were the only Muslims. So my most festivities were of
course RE then other festivals within the Muslim community, but
also a lot of festivals the Hindus have and all of them
associated with food. So growing up, especially in
Bombay, I think Bombay is such aunique city because a lot of
people from India across different regions, a fit of how
(01:26):
big it is end up in Bombay to kind of make it in their career
or study or with aspirations to to make something bigger.
And that also attracts a lot of different sort of people with
different eating habits, different spice levels,
different affinity of things. And the food culture is very,
very interesting. So I grew over there and I
basically was in a family where men also cooked, which is very,
(01:47):
which is I would say at that point was not very common
because most conversations with friends from school or who made
your Tiffin this afternoon or seeing my neighbors, mostly
women cooking and seeing my father used to cook very often.
My uncle cooked very often as well, who we grew up very close
to. And also I didn't really grew up
with my grandparents. I don't really have this grand.
(02:09):
My grandmother taught me to cookthat sort of story.
But I mean, my grandparents passed away on my father's side
pretty young when he was very young and but he was adopted by
his aunt and she spoke a lot about cooking.
So I did eat some of her food but didn't literally learn with
her to cook. But I heard from her a lot of
stories of back when my grandparents were around, India
was still a colony and they werepart of this nawabs, Nawabs,
(02:34):
which is possibly literally translated to princely states.
So India was never one country. It was many princely states
governing their own sort of governance, all outsiders.
As I said, my Iranian family coming from there and the
British government kind of bought these princely states
together on doing services for them.
But without diving too much intothat, the reason I share this is
because of course they had a lotof privilege and access to
(02:55):
hunting or cooks from all over the region to come cook for them
and throwing big fees for, for, for British politicians who were
visiting at that point. So I, I used to hear a lot of
stories from her and she was herself a very unique person
because she came from Kalimpong,which is North East of India,
very close to Darjeeling. Maybe you know it because maybe
you have had recently a Darjeeling black tea.
(03:16):
She came from that region. She was a protection Christian
herself. So also an interreligious
marriage back in the day, a pretty so from her was a lot of
cultural stories and how food culture exists in her part of
India where they speak Nepalese and very influenced by the
Chinese cuisine, you know, the Nepalese Tibetan cuisine.
And then her coming to Bombay and seeing this different
cuisine, you know, so cut short from there, that's where I would
(03:38):
say the first interest for cooking came in.
A lot of careers came in the wayI was considering engineering,
like every every Indian, I have to say I was considering
politics. I briefly worked in a political
party campaigning for them. I was volunteering a lot with
activism and also seriously considering Navy, military,
army, one of these defence sort of jobs for a different reason,
(04:00):
which I don't think is the idea of the podcast, but somehow I
ended up doing hospitality management.
So when you think of being a chef, and that came from during
school vocations and things likethat, watching Kitchen
Confidential a lot from Anthony Bourdain.
Hi, reading Kitchen Confidentiala lot and watching No
Reservations. So both from Anthony Bourdain
Kitchen Confidential on one sidebeing his version of what he saw
(04:22):
kitchen life as, which I never really got to see of that amount
of violence or that amount of drug abuse or that amount of I
don't know if you know the kitchen, if you know, if you're
a chef listing, you know what I'm talking about.
But yeah, it was it was pretty interesting to see that side of
his kitchen career was very interesting.
I think to read about for many chefs like me, medium, medium
raw or even Kitchen confidentialand then more reservations were
(04:43):
very interesting as a chef travelling all over the world.
And that was also pretty cool tosee how different cultures cook.
That was some of my interests. And I thought, OK, you know
what, this could be a great career to be a chef.
And the only part at the point Ihad was to go study hospitality
management. Because hotel management or
hospitality management is the career people do if you want to
become a chef in India, which iskind of rare, but very, very big
(05:06):
back in India. So most good restaurants at that
point existed in hotels, which is changing now.
And at that point I studied at that school called the Ayicha,
Mumbai or the other catering college, one of the first
hospitality institutes in all ofSoutheast Asia.
Started back I think 80 years ago when India was just a very
young country and learnt a lot of there.
Learnt I would say not a lot of cooking, but a lot of yeah,
(05:29):
management skills, a lot of people skills.
Also learnt a lot from my peers who were very passionate people.
Learnt how hotels work. And I think it, it, it got me to
move to good chefs, good, good people with the great basics,
right, and also gave me access to kind of right to restaurants.
And that's where I first startedworking at restaurants.
(05:49):
I briefly worked at this place called The Table, by then then
run by chef Alex Sanchez from Bombay, who had just come back
from per SE, a French Laundry and places like that.
And so I used to spend some timethere doing vacations sometimes
during evenings after school. Also briefly spend some time at
Bombay canteen at another place in in a very classical Indian
restaurant as well. And I'll just run through fast
(06:12):
through this. But that was kind of my college
life and the reason I left Indiaimmediately after college.
So 2017 I graduate from IHI Mumbai from that college I spoke
about and I don't stay in India because all the prospective
carriers I had. So I was not a very bad student.
I was pretty good student, I think.
And I got a lot of these interviews which you have these
(06:33):
carrier placements to the campusand most of them were management
training programs. So for those who don't know,
management training program is basically you will be working
for a hotel for a two years closed contract where they will
basically teach you if you're ina in a kitchen management
training program. They will basically teach you
everything about their their ethos, their vision, the mission
(06:54):
of the company, what principles,say a core group or Marriott or
Hyatt, they work and how the company culture is, what kind of
menus they have, what kind of outlets they have.
Because most of these hotels have say an X outlet, which
exists in 10 restaurants and they're kind of trying to
maintain that standard. So they teach you all those
skills, They teach you a lot of management, team management
(07:15):
skills. And at the end of this two year
period, you become a sous chef or a junior sous chef possibly.
And in few years you'll be a head chef.
To me that at that point for loss of words, I found them very
stupid because how could I as a 20 year old go through a two
year management training programmade by the hotel where they
kind of groom you to be that position.
But still, I found that a littlemessy because I had done some
(07:38):
internships at hotels, at Grand Hyatt in Mumbai, for example.
And I had seen how these people who are management trainees are
treated by the real staff who's been there for years and
learning how to cook. Or they are pretty established
cooks. And then they just have somebody
who's come out of culinary school kind of being their boss,
but actually only making duty rosters, making staff schedules,
making uniform orders for them or yeah, so possibly maybe doing
(08:01):
some menu development and thingslike that.
But I didn't really find that interesting.
And going back literally during my college time, I had written a
very interesting letter to Chef Paco Morales in southern Spain
and Cordova. And my letter to him was a
little about how was he? I was very interested, as I
said, in my family's history. I was very interested into
cuisines, which all restaurants which explore history as a
cuisine. And he was doing a restaurant,
(08:23):
but still today at 3 Michelin star restaurant in Cordova
called Noor. And he was creating this project
where you eat, yeah, you basically eat a 10th century
Spain at that point. Today.
I think he advances every year alittle bit on how Spain has
evolved. And at that point Cordoba or
Cordoba, Andalus was the capitalof the Islamic world.
So the Arab world, it's capital was Cordoba.
(08:45):
At one point in it's golden period, the Arabs bought to
Spain paper writing, a lot of novelty in terms of education.
There's some great architecture as well.
I mean South of Spain has a lot of architecture today.
Today they are converted to cathedrals, but these were like
mosquitoes or libraries, universities built by the Arabs.
And he was doing cooking from back then.
So for you to get perspective, what know is imagine a Spain
(09:05):
which doesn't have tomato, doesn't have chocolate, doesn't
have corn, doesn't have chilies,doesn't have a lot of
ingredients which today make pork.
I mean, you can't think about itin the Arab world.
So all these ingredients which today make Spain are very new if
you look at world history. And he was doing that cuisine.
So I was super interested in hisproject.
I saw one of his, he has done a seminar in the UK, so I'd see
(09:27):
that on YouTube. And I said, you know what, I
want to write to this guy just to ask, how does he do it?
And it would be something interesting for me.
He interpreted that because it was in leisure in English.
Spain doesn't happen to have a lot of people who speak English.
And he interpreted that as an application for internship.
And he said, oh, great to hear from you.
For Khan, nice to know you want to apply for a starch.
I didn't even know at that pointwhat a starch is.
(09:48):
I was like, starch stage. How do you, I mean, didn't I
read it a stage? That's how it's in English.
And I didn't get what that meant.
And I Googled and found out whata starch is, but I was like, oh,
this is not what I wanted. Like, let me just ignore it.
So this was first year, second year of college.
And then when I finished Collegein the third year and was out of
options to work in India, I saidyes to this internship, ended up
(10:11):
in Spain. So I spent a few months there.
I spent like half a year in Cordoba.
Then I later moved on to restaurants in Paris because
there was one restaurant by chefPascal Barber, which I wanted to
always work at. I did a stage over there as
well. I came back to India, figured
out that India is not going to be somewhere I'm going to make a
cardio because it still felt that I'll be struggling a lot to
express what I want or kind of Ihad seen how great things can be
(10:36):
and I felt like it felt like a bargain to be to be in India, or
it felt like, yeah, going a notch below.
So I struggled a year in India collecting money and came back
to Spain. So I came back for another very
short Stars in Mugaritz. Very subsequently to that I got
hired at Mugarets. I was there in 2019 internship
and in 2021 I was working for them.
(10:57):
And in this period of 29/20/2019to 20/21, I learned a great deal
about yeah, I wouldn't say food because if you're more Mugarets,
a little Mugarets isn't the place you go just to eat.
Of course you can have a great meal over there, depends which
season, which year it is. There are some great plates from
there, but it's mostly a very provocative psychological
(11:19):
philosophical experience. It's a restaurant which works on
oxymorons. So they explore things like
ugly, beautiful or extremely crazy, but extremely delicious
at the same time. And I think the best way to
explain you Muguritz is possiblyexplaining one of the dishes
that I I did over there, right? So there was this dish which had
(11:41):
like a lamb, a small stake of lamb, pretty pretty small, I
think 1 biter and it was served with a saffron sauce.
And next to the plate you had like 2 bowls of saffron.
One of them was actually saffron.
The other one was Basque chili, which was dried and chopped
julienne to a way that it exactly looked like saffron.
And there was equal volume of saffron for one gram of saffron.
(12:02):
So that means that there was a yeah, it was a lot of precision
cutting over there. And the waiter came to you,
served your lamb and said, you know, this is not the best lamb
you'll have because there are great people who do great lamb
dishes. But this is more about the
humble sauce that you see and the saffron on the side because
you have two bowls of saffron. One of them is actually saffron.
One of them is a chili, which has been cut by 30 interns who
come from all over the world. And every day we do 30 minutes
(12:25):
of this in the morning together as a team to produce enough
saffron, enough of this fake saffron.
So today, where do you put your value into 1g of the most
expensive spice or 1g of 30 people's work who have come all
the way to do this? So a restaurant like this, which
challenges a lot of stereotypes,it's very provocative, as I
said. And yeah, the most creative
(12:46):
restaurant I have worked at personally because it goes
beyond techniques, it goes beyond machines, it goes beyond
molecular gastronomy and principles like that.
It goes deeper into philosophy and exchanging ideas of of
human, yeah, the human brain breaking down into smaller
principles which can be then applied to dishes.
So, yeah, super cool restaurant.Has worked there over three
(13:07):
years and had a really good time, of course with it's own
tough moments. I mean, it's, it's not easy.
I was the first Indian to be hired in that restaurant.
Immigration, of course, that's come in the way when at least
you're hired, like being an intern I think is a little more
easier. A lot of Indians have been
interns at restaurants like these.
But getting hired there and having your paperwork done, it
was quite a challenge. But yeah, it was a great
experience. During my time at Mogaditz, I
(13:29):
also attended MAD Academy, whichis this Academy started by
Renard Sepi and Magnus Nilsson from Fabrikan, and they
basically have these crash courses for business.
What business and leadership is the first one?
And the second one is called Environmental Sustainability.
I was in the environmental Sustainability cohort and I was
chosen as one of the few people to receive like A6000 Euro
(13:51):
scholarship to attend America Academy in Copenhagen, through
which I met people who were likeclimate scientists, people who
were first generation farmers, people who do zero roast
cooking. For example.
Douglas McMaster from Silo was one of my lecturers and learned
a great deal about how Denmark and how the full system in
Denmark works in a sustainable way.
(14:13):
That was a very interesting phase of my career I feel.
And just after that I came back to Mugarit, tried applying a few
things, didn't really work greatwith the team.
I feel the restaurant itself is,has done so many things for so
long that it makes it makes any changes.
And that was I think my first wake up call to sort of want to
transition from Muguritz. Being in Copenhagen was a great
exposure. I felt like in Muguritz, I was
(14:33):
at a point where I was super comfortable.
I felt I was, I was doing great in my career and I felt like I
would like to be a little more challenged.
I felt like the conversations I had in Copenhagen for the one
week I was there were very challenging.
Some of them were terms I had never heard.
And I was like, I would love to be in, in that sort of
environment where, you know, I've, I feel like I have a
conversation. I have to go home, write down
things or make notes or Google what that was.
(14:56):
So I was kind of, yeah, attracted to that in, in a way,
the energy of Copenhagen. And Mugaritz is also a funny
restaurant because it shuts for six months and works for six
months. So six months they shut, two of
them literally shut and four of them doing R&D events and a mix
of things. And one of the seasons I was
like, you know, I want to do something else during winter.
(15:17):
And I actually drove to Copenhagen and I was going to
end up with Alchemist originallybecause I knew some people back
there. I said, you know, I would love
to get some exposure into Alchemist and also see first
hand how these restaurants work.Norma, of course we all know
about it, some people in the industry and I thought that
would not be possible. I thought it was not even
(15:37):
approachable because I feel so many people apply to Norma.
And for me, just last moment, just showing up over there
wouldn't cut the budget. They have a budget in terms of
time and attention they can givepeople.
Alchemist basically had, they'vegiven me an apartment to show up
on 21st of December if I'm not wrong.
And then they had a case of COVID.
COVID was still a thing back then.
In 21 they said, you know what, just come after Christmas
(15:59):
because we don't want to get newpeople into the into the control
atmosphere. We have to not risk another
shutting down or cancelling diners.
And I said, OK, that's cool, that's fine.
And I wrote to Noma to connect with somebody in Noma who could
guide me. I can do a one month internship.
That's all I can afford, but I would also like to see if I
could be hired in the team. And so I had gone into the
conversation of internship telling them that I would love
(16:22):
to have like a test at the end of the month to see if I could
be hired. Was just actually myself
checking the market, checking ifI'm if I cut out for a
restaurant like that, you know. So yeah, they were very kind of
accept me And the first week, the second week of January, I
started in Noma, had a great time over there.
Opened my eyes too. Yeah, the world is so different.
I feel in Mugarita Noah, becauseMugarita ran with four, five of
(16:45):
us at that point in 21 as hired employees in the service
kitchen, 3 or 4 of them in R&D and 30 interns.
So the proportion was one is to 10 from or like 1 is to 8 for
chef hired chef to an intern. Whereas in normal they had like
2022 chefs in the service kitchen, they had six of them in
the R&D, they had a fermentationlab.
They had like people hired and doing the job and then they also
(17:07):
had interns, of course, to do a normal us pay interns back then,
it was not not paid. They had accommodation, which
they paid for and stuff. But not my thing to get into.
But yeah, the great exposure I feel Norma, even as an intern,
the first week was super interesting.
I say first week because yeah, second week of Norma, a lot of
people fall sick of code. Again, the code ended up being
(17:28):
my guardian Angel of sorts because I didn't fall sick.
I got COVID later in later beginNorma hired for the second week
itself. I was in the Section 4.
They call it at that point Normajust works name like they're
called section 121234. That's there's no real I would
say yeah, it's not divided like first course, second course and
things like that. So this my section had three
(17:51):
people and me like 3 hired staffand me as the intern in the
first week. First week we had some trial
runs. The new menu was starting for
Ocean season 2022. And the second week suddenly
there is there is just one person from the hired employee.
So three of them, two of them got COVID.
And the second day of Week 2 there was nobody.
It was me alone in the section, the intern who had somehow
(18:13):
managed to learn all the recipesand had to give the service
together with three chefs from the R&D department who of course
do the menu because they built it.
And that gave me like a very good exposure into, yeah, people
who've been years and Norma working for them, travelling
with them, doing projects for them, doing events for them.
And they're working closely withall of them.
Like people like Thomas Fraber with Nate, with, yeah, so many,
(18:36):
so many cool people. Merrick from Norma was super
interesting. And I feel like they put in a
good word for me. And at the end of week too,
Kenneth, the head chef at that point who's today heading
fermentation, he called me to his office and said, you know
what, We do not need to wait twoweeks.
We'll actually like to offer youthe contract of being a chef at
Noma. And yeah, I didn't have to give
(18:58):
much thought because, I mean, ofcourse I had a signed contract
to go back to in Mugaritz in 20 to around April.
But I was like, this is was a lifetime.
I mean, so many people walk fromthe doors of Noma every day that
I can't reject an offer like this.
And also it was exactly what I was looking for.
So that was my Noma journey. It was a great, great restaurant
to work at. It went very well for me.
(19:20):
I enjoyed the the year I was there.
But at some point also I was, I felt the hours I worked.
The amount of days you worked isa little crazy over there
because you sort of have as, as an employed chef, you have keys
to the restaurant. So even if the restaurant shuts
2 days, but if you are serving something on a Tuesday service,
which has to marinate for say 24hours, it is assumed you will
take your keys, enter the restaurant and prep it.
(19:41):
So nobody will tell you to work all the hours, but you will in
summer season when there's elderflower all around.
Copenhagen and normal with Noir Projects now sells elderflower
kombucha. The vinegar on the menu, we had
elderflower syrup. We had so many things with
elderflower. That means every day after the
shift, after the clean down at 11:30, all of us stayed until
like 2:00 AM during summer to pick, pick these elderflowers
(20:01):
like to, to remove them from their chills and freeze them or
store them or make some things out of that.
So there was a lot. Hours worked if I honestly got
burnt out at that. In that period I also had some
personal issues going on with life.
I don't think it was just work, I was, I think it was majorly
personal issues and most of it being the anxiety from the
paperwork in Denmark. Denmark was slowly turning into
(20:21):
a very right wing, the not immigrant friendly.
I mean which country is immigrant friendly?
But Denmark was at the worst endof that scale.
And Ukraine war happened at thatpoint as well, which led to
cancellation of all sort of priorities for any type of visa.
The Ukrainians were the only ones who got priority to get
their visas answered. And I was in a limbo where I
(20:43):
could work legally in Denmark, but my application of residence
was still being studied. So Denmark lets you work while
they study your application. And I also had an episode in
London where I was flying through London to Austria and
back to Copenhagen. And I, I got stuck for
questioning in London and I was made to stay in London for three
days by the immigration because they couldn't figure out why am
I working in Denmark when I do not have a Danish residence.
(21:04):
I have a Spanish residence. So anyways, Long story short, I
don't think this is the place, but also if somebody wants to
know more about this, write to me on Instagram, leave a comment
under the episode. We also on YouTube so you can
write to me there. And I would love to dive deeper
into if that should be an episode, you know, of how
immigration issues have been on my way and still on my way right
now actually at the moment as I speak to you, I've just come
(21:25):
back from an Foreign Office appointment this afternoon.
So yeah, if you want to speak about that, feel free.
There's someone here you can speak to.
But yeah, so Norma, at that point in August of 2022, I
decide August, September, aroundthat period, I was like, yeah,
this is not going to be a long term plan.
Also, I got a letter from the Danish immigration saying that I
would be reported if I don't leave or in the next one month.
(21:49):
And I could have avoided that and I could have made things up
which would let me be in Denmark.
And also Noma was planning to goto Japan and stuff, which would
have made things easier. But I realized it was like a
wake up call what happened in London, that this is not going
to be a place I can live. And Spain is a much secure
option because I had residents over there.
So it's a long time. And that's when I somehow spoke
to Noma and Renee Kenneth Thomas.
(22:11):
The whole team was super supportive.
They, yeah, they supported me all through the way.
They said they also realized that being going back to Spain
for me is the most smartest decision, even though it means
me not working for Noma. And they helped me financially.
They helped me by giving me all the space I needed to take that
decision. And so, yeah, I had to quit the
job at Noma. I was in sort of a limbo.
I didn't want to work for restaurants anymore.
And that's where my journey of afugitive chef, which we are now
(22:34):
around 20 minutes into the podcast.
And I'm now getting to the pointwhere, you know, I decide to be
a fugitive chef. But it was not a very active
decision. I would say the decision, yes,
was to not work at restaurants because I was like, OK, I have
seen Norma. It's not like, it's not like, I
mean, I don't want to be pretentious and say that there
was nothing more for me to work at or there was no more places
where I could learn. But I was like, I have done more
(22:55):
good. It's I have done Norma.
I've seen a fair share of fine dining restaurants in a gate.
Those are just one type of restaurants.
Of course, there's a lot more ofrestaurant options or caterings
or private chef. A lot of things I could have
looked at if I wanted to continue being in the kitchen.
But I also realized that there should be, there must be more
out there of what I can learn. And I was, yeah, kind of
frustrated to just be in Copenhagen because also anybody
(23:16):
you talk to in Copenhagen is just talking about food in our
bubble of, of chefs, you know. So I went to southern Germany
actually to do a roofing, which is a work away roofing, whatever
you call it, like, yeah, doing organic farming as a volunteer,
staying on a farm in southern Germany, which was like an apple
farm, but they also had a permaculture vegetable field.
(23:36):
And I was working on that learning permaculture,
regenerative farming, also principles like bio like
composting, bio toilets, learning all the insect life,
which also works in these microclimates in these in these
farms. I was learning a lot over there
and I was still like kind of thinking what should I do?
What could be next? And my first thing in my head
(23:57):
was I might have to study. So I was pretty sure that if I
want to change my career, this is very important for those
listening that my first thoughtswere I have to study something.
I have to study maybe a masters,I have to possibly study if I'm
interested in philosophy, for example, I have to study that
from scratch or anthropology as the food anthropology was very
interesting for me. I thought maybe I could study
that. And there was my initial
thoughts and I had a chat with one of my ex colleagues.
(24:19):
So if she's listening out there,Fran, I hope, I hope she's doing
well in Catalonia, has a great restaurant right now.
She used to be the R&D in, in Mugaritz.
And I spoke to her like, what else could be out there?
You know, 'cause I thought like an R&D job is something which
could be far from the kitchen ofthings that are not aligned with
me anymore, but still within food, something that I would
(24:40):
like to work with. And she said, yeah, you could
look at place like Bascovery Centre, look at restaurants.
And the Bascovery Centre thing was interesting because I
myself, as I said, I have a degree in hospitality
management. I do not have masters in
gastronomy or, I don't know, bachelors in gastronomy and
things like that. So when I, I saw this one job
posting for an R&D chef in gastronomy in Basque Culinary
Centre, my first thoughts were it's a job for somebody who
(25:02):
makes like course curriculum because it's a culinary school.
That's all I knew about it. I thought they make yeah, course
curriculums or workshops for people to, to learn gastronomy.
And I just applied for it. I had a few round of interviews
while I was at the farm. So I remember driving to Munich
to sit at an Internet Cafe and be able to be on an online,
yeah, video conference with John, who's currently leading my
(25:23):
team and the HR Rep at Buses Curry Center, and they'll
explain me the job of that. The Bus Curry Center has this
technological center, which is BC Innovation today called Go
with Tech Center with the new building they're constructing in
the center of the city. And this place basically
consults food companies, createsnew products, works with the UN
for all organizations like those, creates strategies for
(25:44):
governments, for tourism ministries and how gastronomy
can be a motor for tourism and also does a lot of projects with
health systems. So like with diabetic patients
with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, all these diseases which are,
which do not really have a cure to them, but it's lifestyle
changes which are subsequently the the way to have a better
life while you have these these health issues.
So that sounded very interestingto me.
(26:06):
I felt like that is completely in in the plan of the things I
was looking for. And yeah, I went ahead with the
process. They were very, yeah, they were
very quick about the decision and spoke about hiring me.
I moved to San Sebastian in Spain, back where I lived
before. And yeah, this is where I've
been for the past, I would say past three years.
Yeah, actually three years now. It's last when I joined here was
(26:29):
22nd of September. So it's been it's been three
years now. And then when I started working
this job, I kept starting meeting, meeting through this
job. A lot of people who were like
me, ex chefs, but yeah, having different careers after that.
One of them is John, of course, who's leading my team.
And his story is also on the oneof the episodes of of the
podcast. And so I met a lot of people who
(26:50):
were into education, science, activism, consulting,
storytelling, and using all these skills that we learn in
restaurants and feed in restaurants.
We learn a lot about how to think on your feet, how to think
quick when somebody's pregnant, who walks in or somebody has a
shellfish allergy and you have to suddenly change something on
the menu. I feel like these things have a
little respect. We give it to it or a little
(27:11):
importance we give to it. And we don't really have a paper
degree that backs this sort of aknowledge.
I feel chefs do have a lot of skills which could be useful.
And in that, in that phase of seeing all this in front of my
eyes, of opening my eyes to people like Juan Vargas who has
an oil company coming out of kitchens or Jade Gross, who used
to be a chef, then human rights activist, human rights lawyer in
(27:33):
New York for, for the UN and later starting a wine company or
meeting people like Dani Lasa. Dani Lasa was the R&D at
Mugaritz and he was the first person on the podcast back.
If you keep scrolling down on Spotify, you'll see his episode.
So when I'm when I saw people like these, I felt like I'd know
enough people to possibly tie the story together and inspire
those who are maybe stuck like Iwas after normal.
(27:57):
Because I felt that a lot of us who are in restaurants, and this
is important. There's a lot of us in
restaurants who are there because we like the job, we like
what we're doing and that those are people who should stay in
restaurant jobs. But there are many who feel like
this is all they can do or feel like this is a way to kind of
because everybody else has had it has it hard.
(28:19):
Or if you've read Anthony Bordenhaving it hard, or if you've
seen series of Al Nakami who's astupid chef in the Bear having
it hard. You also need to have it hard.
I don't think that's what I would suggest is the right way
to go. I feel that you should only be
in a place where you feel like you fit in.
And if you feel like you don't fit in or if you feel like
you're capable of more and not fitting in doesn't really mean
(28:39):
you are lesser. Maybe you're more than the place
and that's why you're not fitting in, because a small box
fits in a big box, but a bigger box doesn't fit in a small box.
So don't try to limit yourself. Don't try to make yourself
smaller. Don't try to limit your
passions, your dreams, your wants, your requirements, your
yeah, I don't know. I mean, channel your agony and
channel your capabilities into something in a format which most
(29:04):
respects you as a person. And I feel that's what I found
with my job. With my job, I mean it again has
problems like every job does, but for the majority part of it,
I feel this is the best point ofmy career where I, I do have a
team that I, I look up to. I do have a sort of principles
that I work with within my company which I which I respect.
I feel I do make a lot of impactin the work I do, be it from
(29:27):
consulting Toyota to make betterproducts in Japan, be it working
with the Jamaican cacao board tohelp sell like cacao products in
Europe. Be it creating the school menus
for Egyptian children in in schools.
Or be it yeah, creating a new product for people with
problems, digesting, people withproblem solving, be it making
(29:47):
like video recipes and meal plans for diabetic patients who
are in type 2 diabetes. So all these works that I do
right now, I feel in my world, in my little opinion, I feel
they have much more impact than serving 8090 diners a night when
you know that they have booked this three years ago.
They have shit load of money to spend on your menu.
They do not even care who is doing it.
(30:09):
They just care about the one person who is the face of the
restaurant and who is mostly themost creative person and yoga
and you as within that, within that, within that framework of a
restaurant is somebody who's just mimicking.
You just have to mimic. As Joseph yourself on the
podcast says, it's mostly monkeysee, monkey do.
It's not being in restaurants isnot being creative.
I feel being creative is taking your careers.
(30:32):
And like all the guests I've hadon the podcast, I feel those are
the most creative people I wouldsuggest you to listen to because
these people have taken their careers, taking their skills and
made that into something super interesting.
I look at Eddie Shepherd. Eddie Shepherd is today one of
the most celebrated vegan plant based, like a plant based menu
restaurants in in England. And he doesn't he doesn't even
have a restaurant. He works from the basement of
(30:52):
his house. Or look at look at Nick.
I mean, somebody who just pickedup foraging because it came
natural to him and is now selling that as a skill to a
restaurant, as a service, teaching people how to respect
their their atmosphere, winning prizes for it.
Be it. Yeah.
I mean, I've, I've had so many amazing people on this podcast
and I'm one of them. I mean, Dan himself, I feel Dan
came from Norma. His story is super interesting.
(31:14):
And now he does putting chefs into schools and I feel that is
much more impactful than whatever you can do in
restaurants. I mean, yes, there are
restaurants which are required to, to, to kind of Dr.
innovation and things like that.But I feel you need to, I don't
know. I think it's also very personal.
I mean, I don't want to bash restaurants, but for me, I feel
I do not, I mean, I do not come from a very privileged,
(31:35):
financially privileged or yeah, somebody.
I mean, I didn't, I didn't go torestaurants dining growing up,
which is why I cannot relate with people walking into Norma
every day and and booking it four years in advance.
So I, I enjoyed serving the people, meeting some great
people at Norma as well, But I feel I don't connect with the
people I was serving. And I feel today what I do, I'm
more connected to what I to the people I serve, to the people
(31:57):
who, who my impact reaches somehow, maybe not directly, but
I am, I'm, I'm proud of the workI do and I feel this.
This is the platform of the podcast that I created to also
kind of sure all of you listening out there, there's
much more out there. And yeah, it's it's a space to
reflect. Yeah, it was.
I mean, it's not about chasing stars or accolades.
It's about reclaiming the meaning of joy and connection to
(32:20):
food. And so where we are, I mean, I
mean, I'll, I'll not make this longer than it is, but I thought
this, this episode was importantthat those who listen to me and
those who follow understand which standpoint I come from the
how did I build this career? It's, it's not small on the base
of fancy degrees or a lot of investments and contacts or
knowing the right people. It's more because I knocked
(32:41):
every door and I especially those which I was interested in
entering. And if they didn't listen to me
once, I kept knocking twice and thrice and the fourth time.
And they ultimately will open. And they are there are questions
will be answered. There's a lot of people out
there who are very resourceful. And I mean, I'm more than happy
to anybody who's listening out there if they need any help.
Yeah. Maybe you're burnt out.
(33:01):
Maybe you're questioning whetherthis life is sustainable.
I just want you to know you're not alone.
So this community, this podcast is here for you and I would love
to hear your story. Message me on Instagram.
We are at at the rate Fugitive Chef's podcast.
Send me a voice note, send me a GIF, send me a sticker.
I mean, the way you want to communicate would be would be
perfect. If this episode specifically
resonates with you, please shareit with someone whom I need it.
(33:24):
And if you want to support the broadcast, I would say the best
way is to subscribe, rate it andpass it on.
So a lot of people I know you follow the podcast on Spotify
because I can see the numbers, but I don't have a lot of people
rating it. So if you're listening to this
podcast, especially this episode, if you liked it, I
would say please go to Spotify and you have these ratings.
The five stars give me a five star write comments on the
episodes because I feel it also gets very alone as a creator to
(33:47):
create content and just have like a one way communication.
I want this to be a community. I want to I'm looking for more
plans to how to connect all of you together on a platform where
we can have more interaction, possibly give you more resources
to to your questions. And yeah, thank you for
listening. Thank you for being a part of
this journey. And also thank you for kind of
celebrating this birthday with me, right?
So here's to another year of life, another another year of
(34:09):
telling stories that matter. I'm for Khan and this was
Fugitive Chefs podcast.
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