PhD in Kombucha? Curro Polo Made It Real

In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, Furqan sits down with Curro Polo, a former fine-dining chef who traded Michelin kitchens for microbes. From his early days at Mugaritz to brewing kombucha at Harvard, Curro unpacks a journey that spans hospitality, science, and the search for purpose.

They dive into his passion for fermentation, what led him to pursue a PhD, and how his current research is building predictive models for flavor. Along the way, they reflect on the power of mentorship, the limits of kitchen creativity, and why universities might be the new frontier for chefs looking to rethink food.

Curro also shares the story behind Lollipop Gatherings — his creative pop-up project blending food, art, and chaos.

This is an honest conversation about pivoting, staying curious, and letting go of titles to follow what truly excites you.

🎧 Fugitive Chefs is your window into alternative culinary careers and bold food innovation. New episodes every Tuesday. Follow, rate us & subscribe for more stories from the culinary underground.🎙️ Hosted by Furqan from the Fugitive Chefs PodcastFurqan`s Personal Insta : https://bit.ly/4dtiyTvPodcast Instagram : https://bit.ly/43ndATOSpotify : https://spoti.fi/3F6j25AApple Podcasts : https://apple.co/43vBtbT🔗 Connect with Curro Polo

Lollipop Gatherings : @lollipop.gatherings

Chapters

00:00 Curro's Journey into Food and Cooking

02:03 First Experiences in the Kitchen

06:57 Internship at Mugaritz: A New Perspective

13:40 Exploring Fermentation at Mugaritz

17:14 The Power of Collaboration in Culinary Arts

18:45 Navigating Career Transitions in the Culinary World

21:52 The Journey into Food Science and Education

24:12 Exploring the Unique Master’s Program in Food Science

26:15 From Culinary to Academia: The Harvard Experience

30:29 Researching Kombucha: Insights from the Lab

33:29 The Role of PhDs in Advancing Knowledge

38:22 The Role of Universities in Society

43:19 Lollipop Gatherings: A Creative Culinary Project

50:00 Curro's PhD Journey and Innovative Research

55:05 Advice for Aspiring Creatives and Chefs

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
So hello and welcome everyone toFugitive Chefs, the show where
we talk to people who have stepped away from traditional
kitchens and sort of reimagined what it means to work in food.
This week we have Kuru Bolo. So Kuru is somebody I know, I
know personally. So yeah, first of all, welcome
Kuru to the podcast. Thank you.
And yeah, Kuru, as I was saying,is somebody I know personally,
which is not. I don't have that fortune with

(00:20):
all the guests. Most guests have come to know
through experiences, through following them on Instagram,
seeing their work. But Kuru, funnily enough, we met
four years ago and what's the reason I say it's funny is
because we have many a times crossed paths and without
wanting to. So first of all, the first.
I don't know if I ever mentionedthis to you Kuru, but the first
time I heard about you was through some ex colleagues of
mine from Noor who were the headchefs over there in North.

(00:43):
And then you ended up working with them in in Kanuk, right?
So these guys first told me about Kuru.
They said there's a guy who's going to come to come to
Internet Mugaritz and he's already there.
Also, I think that's already talking about fugitive chefs.
Your first interaction with Mugaritz actually was in the in
the Sala in the front front of house, right?
It was actually in in the office.
It was OK managing reservations.Look at that.

(01:04):
So yeah, I mean, for me, it's very interesting how people end
up in the kitchen because typically it's people who
already are kind of misfits. And I say I'm and misfits in the
most positive sense of it, people who know they can do this
well, but they feel that there'sanother calling which is bigger,
right? So right after that, I met Kuru
in another context, which I had just come back to work at
Mugaritz on the payroll after like the COVID stint.

(01:27):
And Kuru then started interning in the kitchen.
So we had, I think, one season together the whole year I left
Mugaritz, Kuru stayed, Kuru was hired.
And after that I went to BCC, the Basque Country center.
And then again, we cross paths because Kudrow started doing a
masters in gastronomic science, which is again, very funny.
And now I'm still working at BCC.
Kudrow was out for a bit, which he'll tell us about, and Kudrow

(01:49):
is back in BCC doing a PhD. So I think I've tried to like
make a short summary for people starting on the episode to have
some sort of context on the kindof profile Kudo is.
But I would say before we dig into all of that Kudo, just tell
us about. I mean, this is something I ask
all the guests, like, how did you end up in food?
What is your first interaction? Something with the upbringing or
it was academic, scientific? What was your first interaction

(02:10):
with food? And probably my first
interaction with food was me being a kid and loving eating.
Yeah, in in my house since I wasvery, very young.
My, my mom is, she's a great cook and I would love like, I
remember myself just spending a lot of time next to her at that
point. I haven't sure if it was just

(02:31):
because I liked cooking or because I like the food she
would cook and I could eat. But I remember like in this
afternoon just seeing my mom. And I think that was my very
first approach. And then very young, I would say
I started like getting very, very interested about food,
mainly cooking at the beginning.Then it went into the scientific
side. But I think that was my very
first approach. Yeah.

(02:52):
And I mean, how did you like kind of formalize it?
Was it the only kind of cardio you thought of working into?
Or how do you think that that kind of interest, which is very
passive becomes something like an active cardio adoption?
So in my, in my city, I didn't really know any, any cooks where
I was from. And then very, I was probably 14
or 15 when I, when I was convinced that I wanted to study

(03:15):
something related to culinary. And at that point I didn't, I
knew I like cooking because I like cooking, but I wasn't sure
if I like being inside a kitchen, which then I found that
it was something really different.
And I remember speaking with my mom and being like, look, I
really want to start some kind of career that would enlighten
me to cook. And then we're kind of like

(03:35):
looking at it. And I ended up studying kind of
like hospitality, which had a lot to do with cooking, but
like, it wasn't a culinary school.
Like we wouldn't get like practical cooking lessons.
It was more focused on, let's say, the management side of
food. And then while I was there, I
was able to do a few internships.
So my first real approach towards cooking was probably

(03:57):
when I did my first internship, which was in a sense about
standing in our side. And that was my very first, like
walking into a kitchen. And it was really fun.
I ended up loving it. Yeah.
I mean, I mean hospitality because that's something I study
as well, but for very different reasons.
Because at that point, India does not really have culinary.
Art schools are very few now andgood restaurants in India are
mostly into hotels. So you mostly do hospitality.

(04:19):
But for you, I guess, I mean youwere starting many subjects like
front office, housekeeping and the game.
So I mean the first internship with ARSAC, how close or far is
it from your perception of kitchen coming from a school you
know? It was really far at that time.
I just really wanted to jump inside a kitchen and I literally
spent like a lot of weeks just sending a lot of CDs and letters

(04:44):
around. And San Sebastian was a city
that I was like, it looks prettycool.
I mean, look at those guys. They have restaurants all over
and around and they are crazy old food.
And then one day I got a phone call and it was the people from
our side. And they were like, look, would
you? We are more than happy to
welcome you inside the kitchen. And, and I was like, yeah.

(05:04):
And then I went there and I think I was there for seven or
eight months or so, very intenseand really cool.
I got really nice people from Africa.
Yeah, it's very nice to hear what I mean for me, like looking
at, I mean, I did not know your Arsak bits.
I have. I've met some people who worked
at Arsak and the general perception of Arsak in the city,
people know how, how, what kind of a restaurant it is because of
course, and Sebastian has a lot of restaurants, but all of them

(05:26):
kind of fall in these different groups of things they are good
at. And considering what you do now,
which we haven't spoken yet about, but it seems to me very
far from the kind of food Arsak serves, right.
Because Arsak stands for tradition, legacy and of
preserving that. So was it there that you got
exposure into the scientific sign of things or or what was
that experience for you? Like what do you carry from

(05:48):
there today? I mean, I think that Arsak
exposed me to the world like I was 18 years old, and then you
suddenly jump into a city that is not yours, inside a kitchen
that is full of international people, and you're there.
You don't even know what a Julian or like Bruno's is.
I remember the very first time they asked me, OK, you have to
do Julian. I was like looking for Julianne

(06:09):
or Juliet around the kitchen. Like I had no bases at all.
But then at the same time, well,obviously that was kind of like,
OK, this is going to be tricky. I expose myself to like all of
these incredible people coming from all over the world.
Being a chef when you're 18 years old, you, you feel that
you have to be like Anthony Bourdain.
So, you know, you start going out and they have fun and then

(06:30):
you discover all this like sightof hospitality that I wasn't
aware of. And I think of our side as a
place where like I grew a lot. I mean, I'm, I'm not very
talented with my hands. So like I definitely learned a
lot with about the theory of cooking and tradition for sure.
But I mainly learned a lot aboutlife lessons and things that you
just learn when you're here to people that have more

(06:52):
experience. And that was incredible.
And how come the choice after like, I mean, yeah, that was
your first internship. You go back, say finish the
degree and why? Like, what was your next choice
like? Because I, I mean, most people
who start off, especially in thekind of prosperity schools I've
been start with the interest primary in cooking, unless you
have some background of somebody, you know, who aspire

(07:14):
to be a general manager, possibly in a hotel.
But how was that journey of likegoing and seeing all these
different aspects, seeing how ina way easier physically the
other kind of jobs in a hospitality sector is and
knowing how how physical and challenging being in a kitchen
is? What choice were you like?
What kind of choices did you make towards the end of?
For me, it was, it was really passion driven right for me.

(07:35):
Like I, I saw that Mission star wrestling was going to be kind
of like a Ratatri by where you would, you know, go and like
there's violins inside the kitchen and then the lobsters
are dancing around the stove andeverything is amazing.
And, and you know, you are 18 years old and you walk into the
kitchen with a head shy of heart.
And I don't know all of those things that like, I was
obviously very mistaken, but like it was very natural.

(07:58):
I, I found a lot of fashion and a lot of energy and especially a
lot of diversity in kitchens, a lot of diversity.
You would have people from again, all kind of backgrounds.
And for me that was like amazing.
And they were all wearing the same chef jacket.
So like something that really captivated me at first inside a
kitchen, I was like, this is very in some sense democratic in
a way, because like this is, I don't know, I felt that it was

(08:20):
just a place full of colors thatI wanted to explore.
And I remember one day in our side, again, you mentioned it.
I just like, it's really rooted in tradition and they started
speaking about like these restaurant outside the city
that, you know, they, they do whatever they want with food and
like they're a little bit like, I don't know, like they were,
they weren't very happy. All these crazy restaurant lost

(08:42):
in the middle of the forest where they were, you know, like
not respecting the product and things like that.
And I was like, I need to go there.
And I had a second internship that I had to complete.
And the problem is that it had to be administrative.
So the very first internship hadto be operational and the second
one could be like administrative, like more office
oriented. And that's where I aim to

(09:04):
continue like this culinary career in Margarets and
throughout the years of university because like the
first internship is the first year and then the second is the
third one, if I'm not mistaken. I would like organize dinners at
home, but we were living a lot of students in one house.
And then we would just kind of like clear the living room and
do like very long menus. We can like we would do like, I

(09:26):
don't know, easily 22 courses inside a living room.
Obviously you can imagine the quality of the food still, but
there was there was a lot of hope and attention and care.
I can imagine the young energy, you know, like learning all
these things, watching, coming back from internships, bringing
all these, yeah, these kind of making.
Stuffs inside your kitchen and you were like oh I'm cool.

(09:49):
That's, that's, I mean, that's yeah, it's a different phase
altogether. You know, that kind of Yeah, the
university life is, is by itself, I think very nourishing
also because, I mean, as you said, from not just from
restaurants, but also from my university days.
What I take the most I think is not skills.
I think the last thing I've taken from there.
I think it's more the people, the kind of community you build
because that yeah, you count on that at the end of the day to

(10:10):
for sure fall back on. And how was that exposure in
Mugaritz? Because like, I mean, everybody
going to aspire to be in Mugaritz Kitchen and then you
end up being in a, in an administrative kind of role
because your your, your university requires that.
How was that experience? Like, what did you get to see?
Because I mean, a lot of things happen in that office.
You hear a lot of conversations,you kind of feel the pressure

(10:30):
even if you're not in it. So how was that experience?
I mean, for me it was, again, itwas really, really nice because
I really wanted to be in Margaret.
It's like those years before that second internship, I became
kind of like obsessed with that restaurant.
And I remember like sending in them emails being like, could I
go this summer to intern for twoweeks inside the kitchen?
And they would always say no, no, because you don't have like,

(10:51):
we cannot take you either because it's, you know, we don't
take people for that short time or just because you don't have
experience. And, and it's risky for a
restaurant to take an intern that doesn't know how to cut it
could be dangerous inside the kitchen, as you know.
So I was like, OK, I have a second internship and it has to
be inside the offices. And they were like, what?

(11:12):
And I was like, could I go into your offices?
And they're like, what do you mean?
And I was like, I don't know, you give me whatever job I can
do. And I just want to be there, to
be very honest. And they were like, sure.
So we created this kind of the internal position inside the
offices and they were extremely nice with me because they gave
me like a very like wide perspective of the restaurant.

(11:33):
My days were like, OK, you need to like learn how this
management system works or you need to learn like they really
like host me incredibly well. And at that point they told me
like, look, there's a possibility of you going to the
service them if you want to. And you could be, you know, I
think it was the spend the mornings in the office and then
the afternoons in the, in the service room or something like

(11:55):
that. And I was like, I mean, if you
want to risk it, I have never carry a trade.
I'm more than happy to do so. And I really want to learn how
to do it. And they were like, sure.
And that's how I went into the service whole, you know, Thingy
and Margarets and, and it was anamazing experience.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's cool, right?

(12:16):
To get in contact, like first hand contact, the people who are
dining at Mugaritz, how the experience translates.
I think, I think kitchen is kindof also, I feel like it's, I
don't know, I feel, I mean many kitchens today like those like
Mugaritz, Norma and all these new theatrical places, the chef
does come in contact. I mean, even if the, even if not
just the head chef, but also theteam comes in contact with the
guest, which I found very nourishing.
But I think having that on the service side of things and

(12:38):
hearing feedback, I think it's asuper cool experience to see it
from the diner's point of view, which most times in the kitchen
we kind of ignore, you know? 100% and I think everyone in the
kitchen should once in a while just exit the kitchen because
it's really amazing to see people interacting with food and
the powerful messages that can be delivered through just one

(12:59):
plate and some words from a waiter is incredible and it's
really, really powerful. I've seen people crying at
Margarets, I've seen people getting absolutely mad in
Margarets. I've seen people laughing, I've
seen people dancing. So just all around the same
plate and, and that is really pretty well, at least for me, it
made me think a lot. I was like, now I understand

(13:19):
what is going on because like all of these effort, like having
a reservation system, having people working in the offices,
having people working in the, inthe kitchens and providers, like
they use social media managers, all of that just for people to
put something into their mouth that is mental.
That's crazy. And when you're in service, I
feel like you get a hint of why that could be important for the

(13:41):
world. Yeah, yeah, No, I think it's
yeah, it's a, it's very demanding, but at the same time
it gives you, as you said, it's a, it's a very, I mean, it's a
great spot. It's not a very safe spot
because you're kind of without any covers to kind of cover for
you, but it's kind of, yeah. I wouldn't say dangerous, but
you put yourself in a position where you could be asked to
think maybe you don't have answers to because the Dianox
like expects you to know everything about what's

(14:03):
happening. But I think it's a great place
to have this view and Kuru moving on from here like your
the next one. I think after that, after the
service, after the office and the service, then you end up in
the kitchen internship, right? So what was that your first
exposure to fermentation? Because that's a topic we want
to touch a lot in this conversation.
Or where was your first exposureto fermentation?

(14:23):
I think that was the very first one, yeah.
Mogher is very known for fermentation.
And then at that time there was these amazing cook that you know
as well, Dimitri Dimitrios has released and he was kind of like
managing this whole fermentationside in Mogher is the
operational part. And now it's just mind blown,
mind blown by the amount of things that you could do

(14:44):
throughout this technique. And also about the passion that
he drives and that he takes frompeople like this guy Dmitri, for
example, He was like a Bible. He knew everything and he would
spend hours studying things thatin my opinion, were like, why
are you studying that? Then I understood, but that was
definitely the very first encounter.
It was muggeries and their wholelots of fermentation.

(15:07):
Yeah, I think also the way they do it, I think it's very strange
because it's not like I think for many restaurants you can, I
don't know, you can book up the Nomas book of fermentation and
then copy and paste and do a lotof kojis and misos and
kombuchas. Whereas Mugaritz goes beyond
that. And how they, I think it's a
very artistic approach to fermentation, which you can't
just, I think it's a lot of which is why I think people like
they must re study it or like Ramon and people who are there

(15:28):
in that department, because it'sa lot of studying a concept of
how, I don't know, how spores ofKoji grow and then applying it
to a texture or a material or something different altogether.
Right. And then you stayed, you stayed
on in Mugaritz, you worked in the kitchen and on the team.
How was that experience of like seeing every side of the
restaurant, but now being in a position where you're being

(15:49):
paid, even if it's too little? I think that's, that's debatable
if it's a good pay, but at the end of the day, you are kind of
accountable for the job you're doing, right?
So how was how was that experience to be in that
position? I mean, it's nothing very
demanding. And I remember, and you know
this as well, we would invest a lot of hours inside and outside
the restaurant because you had so many people that were coming

(16:10):
from all over the world expecting a lot from you.
And those were the interns that some of them would have, you
know, and you've heard a lot of stories as well in this kind of
restaurants where you have people that have sacrificed
their lives and have sold everything.
They had other places to buy a plane ticket to go to that place
to intern and to learn. And when you realize that you

(16:30):
are like, I need to be, I need to be really good at whatever I
do because these people deserve it, especially Margaret to bring
Margaret. You do it's techniques if you
not call it like that, but there's something bigger there
that you need to make sure that you deliver to people, which is
a commitment to throw questions on the table.

(16:51):
The commitment to to think without fear, to question
whatever you have around, I don't know, having all of those
people. And I was clearly not prepared.
I don't think anyone is preparedto suddenly open the doors and
then you have 20 people. Like it's like, Oh my God, what
am I supposed to do? I feel that you used to do a
very like learning, big learningprocess.

(17:11):
And you're like, it's OK to say I don't know.
It's fine if I don't know how todo it.
I'm not a machine. So there's going to be things
that these people are going to do even better than I know how
to do. So there's a good, you know,
conversation between I'm the onethat needs to tell you we need
to do this, but you might be better at doing that than I am.
So let's operate here and just make it happen.

(17:33):
And I think that's that, that was the experience.
But it was definitely very, yeah.
Yeah, and I mean, it's beautifulwhat you said.
I think. I mean in my case also that the,
the few years I worked, there was a lot of receiving.
I thought I would be the one. I mean, of course the person
who's coming there to intern, maybe straight out of school,
some of them changing cardios. I had an intern with me who was
winning, I think the Taiwan version of X Factor and coming

(17:53):
as a singer, changing a career. There was, there was a girl who
was in the, she was a paramedic in Argentina coming to, to
interns. It's like 1 girl who was coming
as a human resource expert trying to, trying to change her
career. So it's people like this who
have tons of expectations from you.
But I think each of them have, like I've, I've learned a lot
of, from all these interns and, and colleagues and people who

(18:13):
were there who did not think they were in a position to
teach. But I think there's a lot of
stuff I've I've learned and alsolearned to kind of sort of let's
go of this position of and thereis a hierarchy, of course, which
makes the kitchen work because if not, that would be a
madhouse. But in the sense of the
hierarchies only for the operation and not for who knows
more or who knows less. I think education is very much

(18:34):
that is horizontal transaction, whereas, yeah, organization is
something which has to be vertical cause of things have to
be work and you need to find who's responsible for them.
But moving on from there, Kudo, because for me, this is a very
interesting part of the podcast.But again, it's not the major
chunk, which I think listeners are you have for of course,
there are people who are like passionate about restaurants who
want to hear how your experiencewas Mugaritz.

(18:54):
But we hear the platform is morefocused on now we've established
how much you're into it, how much of, I would say, the
admirer of that kind of job and you have good memories from it.
But why the change then? Like, why not just continue, You
know, because there are a lot ofpeople in that ecosystem, like
Mugaritz, like many restaurants who stayed there for 30 years
and and they are still enjoying it in a, in a certain, I mean, I

(19:16):
don't know if they're the prisoners of their choices or,
or they're actually enjoying where they are.
I mean, that's that's up to them.
But for you, you're somebody whohas kind of pivoted from that
kind of career, you know, which is I think also, I think it's
difficult because I was in your shoes at some point when I was
like going to Norma and I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm
throwing this away. Then I was like at Norma, OK,
I'm going to throw this away andgo to a different position.
So it's a very pressured decision because the whole world

(19:37):
makes you feel that it's a very privileged position to be in.
But at the same time, you feel there's more to this.
So for you, how was that that transition?
It was funny for me for a very stupid reason.
And I remember just being in Margaret's.
And then so as you know, Margaret's would have like their
restaurant, but then they would sometimes want to know I'll
carry on projects for other companies.

(20:00):
And while I was there, there wasthis company, they they were a
microwave like cooking company. I say like they would prepare
rices that you would just buy, put them in the microwave.
OK, you know. And you eat it, OK.
And they had a problem, which was that they would do this
recipe and then the rice would turn out very like, overcooked.

(20:21):
And they contact immigrants. They were like, will you consult
us on this topic? And I remember Ramon taking over
the project with Julian. And I was like, I had at that
point, I was in the morning shift.
And I was like, I would love to,like, hear all this project.
Can I go in the afternoons and then teach me a little bit?
And then they were like, yes, sure.
So there I remember just cookingrices like rice and 2005

(20:46):
thousand different kinds and just like the squishing the rice
and trying it and trying and trying it.
And at some point we, we managedto solve it on a very
interesting way and it worked. And the company applied, you
know, that equation and, and I became a little expert on rice
cooking. And I was like, OK, this is
fascinating because obviously throughout those months we had

(21:08):
to study. I had no clue what I mean.
The pacting was well, like, whathappens?
What is, you know, how does riceget cooked?
Like how does water enter the grain?
Why does temperature matter? All of these things that I have
never asked myself, I asked to myself, thanks to that project.
And I was like, this is extremely cool.
And I spoke with Ramon, and I was like, I think this is my

(21:29):
thing. I love studying rice.
And he was like, maybe you like studying food, not only rice.
And then I was like, maybe you might be right.
And that's how I started entering these world, food
science. And I just by that time, the
pandemic hit, so I had a lot of time at home to study not only
rice, but other kinds of food mattresses.
And I think that's how it started, thanks to a company

(21:51):
that sells rice in gas stations and cool supermarkets.
So yeah, big time. And then did you detect like, I
mean, I think it was during thatperiod that you detected that
you have kind of, I don't know if you're missing out some
academic tools or maybe academiacould help you kind of have a
strong base for what if this is your interest in how to dig
deeper into it? Or was it just because you think
that kind of a course would helpyou open doors to kind of apply

(22:15):
for positions which have this isa full time job?
Or why did the master come up asan idea?
I think it's because like, I'm normally a very like innocent
person and, and knowledge has this really cool thing on
innocent people that is like when you learn a little bit, you
think that you know a lot and then you feel that you can apply
that in many places, right? And then you learn a little bit
more and then you're like, Oh myGod, I was so wrong.

(22:36):
I know nothing. And at that time I was like, I
know what happens with a middle pectin.
And then I was like, I might as well just develop it.
So even before the master degree, during the pandemic,
Harvard did something really cool, which was they created
this platform called edx and they basically had it before.
But during the pandemic, they decided to release all of the

(22:57):
courses for free. But you could have access to
really good teachers and a lot of knowledge just by sitting in
front of a computer and just listening and taking notes.
And that was kind of like my comic project.
I was did the course on science and cooking online and I was
like, this is insane. I fell in love.
I kept on studying. I started buying books and

(23:18):
studying a lot. And that's where the master
came. So I spoke again with come on.
And she was like, look, there's this opportunity of doing this
master in the BCC, which is about food science and
gastronomic sciences. And there's one issue, which is
like the very first four months you have to work here because
your contract is over. So we'll be generous enough to

(23:41):
put you in the night shift and you can go to the master in the
morning. And that's how it started.
I started with the Master and astronomic sciences and it was
really cool. It was amazing.
Now, I mean, tell us about because I mean, of course I can
tell about what the Masters is like, but I think it would be
nice to hear from somebody who'sbeen in the Masters.
I mean, this is not a promotion for bus culinary.
They have no stakes to sell the master.
But I would be very interested because I think it's a very

(24:02):
unique way on how they do it. But yeah, tell us how for you,
if you had to like kind of pitchit like a make a deck for the
Masters, how would you explain it and, and and what did you
take from the Masters? He's a master.
He's very focused on on food. So you hear a master in food
science and you respect that. You're just going to jump into a
lot. They're going to give you a
white coat and then you're goingto be doing all of these
measurements and you're going tounderstand food from the most

(24:26):
analytical point of view. But then you're going to that
mastery and and you get so confused because you you have
philosophers coming to teach. You have people from the world
of politics. You have journalists, you have
sets, you have scientists as well.
Yeah, these all of these people speaking on the same topic,
which is food. And then you have a lot of

(24:47):
projects to do with like restaurants, with the industry,
with like schools. And it's like, I was like a year
and a half of like a lot of information.
You get exposed to a lot of information and a lot of that
information is very contradictive, right?
Like you would hear a philosopher coming to speak
about this topic, and then the next day you would have a
microbiologist saying the opposite.

(25:10):
And that is really cool because I feel that he's a master, that
they pay a lot of effort and they put a lot of effort into
creating a critical way of approaching food.
Because like as anything on life, there's not just one side.
Like it's very, very naive to think on food as a team Objects
is clearly a 3D object and has many different faces.

(25:31):
So I think that the seed of the master is like, we're just going
to expose these people that are coming again, from all of these
different places in the world toa lot of different definitions
of food. And then from all of that, you
make your own sandwich and then you do whatever you want with
that sandwich. But that was for me the master
and food science from the BCC and and it was an incredible
experience. Yeah, it's super cool.
I mean, I find really interesting how they bring a lot

(25:52):
of guest speakers and a lot of the amount of topics they
explore I think is super interesting.
I still think it's like a very, I think it's a very small
exposure into the kind of 10/15 channels they open.
But I think if somebody has interest, it gives them enough
to kind of specialize maybe on asensory science, statistics, I
don't know, whatever textures, whatever the person wants to.
And for you, I mean, it's what is surprising for me and what is

(26:13):
interesting to know is because coming from restaurants,
somebody would think if you do this masters, you will kind of
improve your CV or do kind of a research because you have a
final year project. So somebody would think you
would do it more position at restaurants, maybe go and work
at an R&D lab of a restaurant tobe able to get a job over there
in the future, you know, but youchose Howard, if I'm not wrong.
So how did that happen? Like why Howard?

(26:35):
What was your final year projectlike your thesis from the
masters? Yeah.
Tell us more about about that journey.
So. From Alopa sandwich of things
that we said that they exposed you to, one of my favorite
topics was the most basic and traditional scientific approach
to food. I really fell in love with the

(26:55):
analytical side of science and especially with the set of like
microbiology. And at that point the master had
a kind of like, I, I wouldn't call it agreement, but it's just
a position in, in ivory with this science and cooking program
that I did for the pandemic. I was like, OK, this is really,
really cool. And I start with my, that time

(27:17):
thesis advisor, which was Juan Carlos Arvoleja, the director of
the master at that time. And I told him I, I think I want
to work on this topic and I really want to see how academia
works because I maybe, and master is pretty cool because
the people that comes from academia and more scientific
jobs would normally go into restaurants.

(27:38):
And the people that comes from the food industry as in like
first line hospitality waiters or cooks would normally end up
in like big blabs or, or academia.
And, and that was a transition. We, we did an interview.
There was kind of like a selection process.
And then one day they told me they were like, look, this
position, you can, you can come here and develop your

(27:59):
dissertation here at Harvard. And I was like, wow, with the
people that I was seeing for like a year on, you know, on the
screen. It was like, that is crazy.
It was pretty. Small world, right?
And how was it being in Howard? Like what was your topic like?
Why? Like what did you focus on
during your research in Howard? The research itself, I mean, I
went to Harvard thinking that I was going to work on filamentous

(28:21):
fungi, especially in Aspergicus always die because we spend a
lot of time working with it during the master.
And I was convinced that I wanted to analyze how, let's
say, the volatile, so the aromaswould change depending on the
fermentation conditions. That was like my very first
idea. And then I went there and I had
a really great colleague, Alejandra, to say that we were

(28:42):
kind of like mates inside the lab.
She was the lab manager. And then she was really helpful
because she would be like, OK, you need to create hypothesis
and you need to like, follow allof these system, which is called
a scientific method. And then I just couldn't come up
with a good question. And then at some point she was
like, OK, why don't you forget about these thing and you work

(29:03):
on kombuchas because since the very first day that you came
into the lab, you've been brewing kombuchas in any kind of
way I've ever seen in my life. And I was like, that is very
interesting. So I decided to measure how the
volatile, so the aroma formationwould change depending on the
tea and the aging condition. So you would prove pure kombucha

(29:23):
you would put into a bottle. And then depending on the amount
of certain compounds that you would have, you would get all
the kind of compounds in the in the final product after an aging
process cannot like a champagne.And then you would take those
liquids, put it throughout gas chromatography, which is a
really fancy and cool machine that basically separates the
molecules that are inside your liquid.
And then a polar island off thatcan be subtracted.

(29:44):
And then it gives you like peaksor say amounts of molecules that
you have. And then you can compare among
different samples how your fermentation went, for example.
And that's what I did at Hybrid.And then I said for a little bit
longer as a teaching assistant for the program of the Science
and Cooking. And yeah, it was, it was really
cool. It was incredible, a really fun.

(30:05):
Experience. Yeah, yeah, super interesting.
I mean, somehow this in this podcast, many guests have had
are from the world of fermentation is very surprising
to me because that was not the idea of of the podcast.
But it's slowly turning into like we had Johnny Drain, we had
Joaquin from Moody drinks, We have Christian from from
Netherlands. And I mean, I think most
listeners listening to it can get some value from it.

(30:25):
It's still people who are still in the kitchen.
So from the research you've done, what do you think?
Is there something that could besimplified and translated to
people who are doing maybe preparing kombuchas or looking
at looking at like beverage, beverage in restaurants as such,
how much of this is translatableto everyday operations?
Have you kind of learned something that could optimize

(30:46):
the production or get a different value or open a new
new flavor in terms of of beverages?
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that everything
can be, and I wouldn't say simplify.
It can be approached in many different ways.
And in the case of this project,that was measuring very specific
volatiles because we were targeting certain volatiles that
are produced by a yeast called Britamyces.

(31:08):
And it's a yeast that if you're coming from the wine world, you
want to kill it. It's like the Darth Vader of the
yeast because it's like very invasive and it produces like
what they call horse blanket aromas or funky aromas and all
of these things like like in oursecond Margaret, I've been in
love with that yeast and it's a use that is present in kombucha.
It's like from if you take everysample from kombucha that has

(31:30):
been, let's say screened to see what kind of like strains were
inside, it always has a fair amount of some kind of some
strain of bread sedimizers. Something that you can apply is
thinking that if you take a kombucha and you put in a bottle
and you're in for carbonation and natural carbonation and you
want to forget of your kombucha for like 6 months.
The chances of getting a lot of funkiness is very high.

(31:54):
Because it turns out that in thetea leaves there's a lot of
these compounds that create thatfunkiness.
So if you want to aim for everything and let's say more
friendly drink, I would suggest to maybe ferment it shortly in
the bottle or try to do so with just single strains of yeast,
but definitely not with just a kombucha mother.

(32:16):
And I take it and I put in a bottle because that's like a
rave of aromas, funkiness and diversity.
Yeah, I mean, there's a way. I mean, that's the point of
fermentation, right? In the end, it's in the end of
this spoilage, but the the fact that makes it I think appetizing
is the way you control it. So I think yes, we are, we, we
have enough videos on Instagram of people popping kombucha,
which touches the ceiling. But I think with the people

(32:37):
doing research like yours, I think, yeah, I mean, it's also
very, very curious on how much because I, I'm like with my work
right now, we're using a lot of these, I would say industrial
strains of kombucha from B from Christian Hansen and other
companies like this, which lets you kind of upcycle a lot of
ingredients, which goes then beyond just creating a kombucha
with the mother and Scooby. So, yeah, I think it's a very
interesting research that you'recoming up with.

(32:58):
And I feel a lot of it is going to contribute to answer some of
the bigger, bigger problems. And that and that brings me to
to your PhD. But it's funny because actually
today itself, I launched a news.I was writing a newsletter for
the past few days with a colleague of mine who was the
first PhD in Bascarini Center, Elena.
And we, we have the chef's community, which we were writing
a newsletter to on how if PhD issomebody's next ingredient as a

(33:20):
as a chef. So we interviewed Ruben, we
entered Paola from BCC. So a lot of people who have
asked also from your batch, we interviewed him on like, what's
their view? Because again, there's a,
there's also a new article that came up last week, which says of
how academia has a lot of PhDs, but there's not enough
researcher positions in, in the pure academia field, which is
different in your case, because again, the kind of PhD you're

(33:41):
doing is very unique by itself and I think fills a different
demand. But tell us about, I don't know,
the inhibitions you had or the thoughts you had before signing
up with PhD and why did you think it's the right step
forward for you? So while I was carrying my my
master dissertation on this whole world of secondary
volatile producer in that secondary fermentation.

(34:03):
Sorry, I, I really enjoy studying because like, the truth
is that when you study something, and I feel that some
people might think that when youstudy kombucha, you literally
have your bookshelf full of likebooks, kombucha volume 1,
kombucha volume 2. And, and for me, the, the real
joy was like really being able to read about psychology, about
like economics, about like all of these things and then giving

(34:24):
them sense into the topic that you're researching.
And I feel that there's something that pretty much any
researcher in the world, and I'msure that it happens to use
well, has have to do. Like you cannot just limit
yourself to one point of view because otherwise you don't, you
don't create anything. So for me, I was like, I, I
really enjoyed it. I enjoy being able to spend time
just starting, taking books, underlying them and trying to,

(34:45):
you know, question myself what is going on.
The very natural step was was that position of the PHC.
And and then there's also a verylike, like a romantic side when
it comes to a PhD. And I'm sure that some PhD
students would be like, this guy's crazy, but I want to see
like that as well, which is kindof like though, you know, you're
born. And if you're born in a country

(35:06):
that, like, you have access to school, most of the countries
you will have to go by law. Since you're, let's say 6 till
you're 14, you're obliged to go to school.
Then when at least in Spain, when you're 16, you take the
decision of like, do I want to continue with school or do I do
something else? I go to work.
Whatever happens, if you take the decision to continue, you do

(35:28):
what we call the bachelor, right?
And then you specialize yourselfa little bit.
You go either for science or forhumanities, what we call.
And then among those people, a smaller percentage decides to
keep on specializing and go to university.
And then some people might go touniversity.
They spend four years in university and then among that

(35:48):
pool of people, even a smaller percentage might go to the labor
pool. Some of those might go into a
master degree. And then till then, your
responsibility, at least in my opinion, with society is to
learn. You need to study.
You need to be as excellent as possible.
You need to commit to your homework.
You need to be good at whatever you're studying.
But that's in some sense one of your own responsibilities.

(36:12):
Now, the difference with a master and a PhD is that a PhD
you not only need to prepare yourself and to study, but you
need to give back something. You need to create knowledge.
You're supposed to have enough knowledge in your hands in some
way of a very specific topic that you are, that you're able
to raise a new question that is going to generate new knowledge.

(36:33):
And you do not get a doctoral title if you haven't proved that
you have created a new knowledge.
And in my opinion is a good way to like, you know, you cannot go
to school, to a master, to whatever.
You don't have a social structure that allows it.
So it's important to promote PhDstudents because those are the
ones that like kind of like in some sense would in a very

(36:54):
strict and kind of make a way develop knowledge for society.
I'm with these. I'm not saying that like PhD
students are the only ones that develop knowledge.
Obviously no, that would be silly.
But in the most pricked sense, Iwould say in terms of paper,
knowledge is a good tool to do so.
And I find a lot of beauty on that on like, you know, you not

(37:15):
only have responsibility stores yourself, but you need to be
very aware that like there's people that pay taxes for you to
do that and you need to be really responsible on that.
I think it's good and I think it's a good way today give it
back. Yeah, I was completely off the
question for that. No, I mean, no, it's totally, I
mean it goes towards what I was going next for me.
Like I love how you, because that's how I see PhD students as

(37:36):
well. They are somebody who are not
just receiving education becauseat the moment they're actually
not actively receiving any education received during a PhD
through the institute is more like how to present your thesis,
how to make it, how to, what kind of coordinators you should
have and stuff and what structure you should have.
I think it's putting little method to the madness which goes
on for four, four years in the best case scenario if, if it's

(37:56):
very, very efficient. But how do you see the role of
universities in that case? Because again, universities are
so diverse in the way they work.There are private ones that are
public ones that are ones which are very institutional.
The ones which are just popping up for the sake of like, I don't
know, MBA in India, for example,in India, there are tons of
universities giving out MBA and then who knows what's the value
behind. But how do you see universities,

(38:18):
at least in your context? What role do they play in
society? Because also I feel the largely
working sector of the society feels like these are just, I
mean, I mean, I know people who share the opinion that
universities are just doing something which is very
outdated. They're not really actively
contributing to an economy on how economies work.
That's the whole capitalist viewof what we're seeing in the
States, for example, you know, of seeing universities as just

(38:39):
people using government funds, kind of extending a person's.
There's, there's cases in India,for example, a very famous one,
but you'd have to know India forthat where people have been
blamed for there's a very famousactivist who's been blamed for
being a 32 year old PhD student who's studying African, African
Studies. So basically Indian, African
relations and on how to shape economies in these countries,

(39:01):
which are developing economies. So a lot of society I feel has
this opinion which is not so positive about about the
universities. How do you see as somebody who's
been outside then adopted it as a choice?
So what do you think? What role do these universities
play in today's scenario? I mean, I think that there's one
and there's like clear role thatuniversities should play among
society, which is there should be bio reactors of opinion.

(39:26):
Universities should be places where you go and you get exposed
to different points of view And throughout, you know, you have a
conflict, you have like discussions and then you have
arguments and then you use your arguments in order to change
your mind to learn something new.
Though on that hand, I feel thatespecially maybe nowadays where

(39:46):
sometimes you feel that, you know, there's someone making it
even harder to like find spaces where you can speak freely about
whatever you want. And university should be those
little capsules, in my opinion, where people can go debate about
anything without any fear of being pointed from one side of
the other for like, you know, that you can leave it for the
streets. In my opinion, university should

(40:08):
be places where there's absolutefreedom.
Of speech and to express yourself.
And it's pretty hard to do so I'm I'm sure, but like, maybe
one good step would be to like bring things down to it.
And sometimes they, there's a lot of, there's a lot of
feelings in universities and that's good.
But like in order to find truth,if there's something closer to

(40:28):
truth about something, it's goodthat both parties are kind of
like chill and they're willing to like share opinions to hear
something, but something new that might not be comfortable
for them. And in my opinion, that's a role
that universities should play. They should obviously educate
people. They should, they should allow
students to be rebel and to honestly to fuck around in the
good sense. Like those universities that are

(40:50):
like impeccable and super clean and there's not angry students,
red flag. That's a sign of like there's
something that is not going well.
I go to university has students that are fighting for an Ant and
they get absolutely crazy because the apples are green and
they're not red for whatever reason.
Doesn't matter if it's stupid, but you want to have a very

(41:13):
active collective of students that are just arguing with with
or without good reasons that I don't care.
But you have students that are complaining because when they
complain, they generate a lot ofmotion and that can bring good
questions that then maybe the more mature side of society can
at least try to rethink and interpret.
So yeah, maybe that's that's a good way of seeing it.

(41:36):
And then obviously doesn't matter if it's public or
private, a university belongs tosociety and they should be open
places. Anyone should.
And that happened a lot in Harvard.
You know, you had classes where you could just go and visit it
and listen. And you had every single day
there was a Congress about something.
And sometimes it was, I rememberone day I went to one that it

(41:57):
was the benefits of using fentanyl on hospitals.
And then that same day, one hourafter you had a society against
fentanyls, the reason why you shouldn't.
So that is really good. And that says a lot about
universities when you have a university that wants to like
show, you know, this is what's going on, comes here and we'll
chat about it. And yeah, for me, there's not a
line like obviously, and I respect both.

(42:19):
And I think that they're both important, like both public and
private and they commit to theirpurpose.
But we should not forget that like universities should build
things for society because they're there for society.
They are a tool for society and that's very important and
sometimes we might forget about that.
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean it has to be places that
create value. I feel they do create value.

(42:40):
And I think there's I mean in the world that we are in today,
there's very few platforms whichdon't have a bias.
Again, I'm not aware of the factthat there are universities
which have bias and that's just human to have bias.
But I think they have structureswhich let people beat in
atmosphere, as you said, like asa as a PhD, as a theory, for
example, you have a platform where you can create hypothesis
and you can work out those hypothesis if they work out, you

(43:01):
know, if somebody in the world has that idea, that's the best
place to have a safe environmentto be able to giving people all
these tools they need to create this hypothesis.
Because it's out of this madnessand chaos that the most
beautiful solutions and the mostbeautiful things we need for the
world to continue come out of. And moving on from there.
Kuru, I would like to come back a little to now where you are
today, because I know also like,OK, before I go there, let's

(43:23):
tell me a little bit about lollipop because that's what I
think super interesting as same thing, which is also an I think
it's your kind of how to channelthis kitchen past.
Tell us about it. I think I already know about it,
but for the listeners, tell themwhat?
What is Lollipop Gatherings? The Lollipop Gatherings is a
project I started back in university with a, with a really
good friend. She lives in Berlin.

(43:44):
Her name is John. When I was in those, you know,
teenagers, we would gather a lotof people and we're like, OK,
that's pretty cool. So I remember when we finished
university, she was like, hey, we have all of these good
friends around the world becauseit was a very International
University. I will be a pity to kind of like
lose contact with them. So we should start a project.
And she's a really cool person. So I was like, don't explain me

(44:05):
more, let's do it. And we create a lollipop with
the main idea was like, we're going to travel around the
world. If possible, we might go to 1
restaurant, these people let us cook and we'll just figure out
how to, you know, we'll stay other places or whatever.
So it was an excuse to keep on traveling the world.
And then we did that for the first year.
And then we obviously face ourselves towards having to plan

(44:26):
things and having a budget and all of these things.
And at that point we decided to like kind of like make it more
formal if possible. And we started making like more
organized events. And that's when a third person
jumped into the question, which is Magdalena, which is a food
photographer. And right now Lollipop is asked
free. And what we do is kind of like
we scout around for events and we create kind of like

(44:48):
experiences of any kind. For me, Lollipop has to be kind
of like a pass for ideas. So if if I want to do an event
around anchovies and some big beer, I love to die, call the
crazy people from Lollipop and then they might give me like,
OK, the structure to do so. And then we'll go to this place
and then these people will bringthe wine.
So it's kind of like building things for the sake of doing

(45:10):
things because like, as one fromwould say, if you don't do
things, things won't happen. And that is important.
So in Lollipop, sometimes we do things, we try to do them with
sense. Sometimes we don't use it at
all, but it's fun and we get to meet people and we cook and
yeah, it sounds like. Yeah, sounds like you've
gathered some good, good people,some great energy over there.
And I mean, the stuff that I've seen from it.

(45:31):
Yeah. So it looks, looks super
interesting. But the reason I wanted to know
this is because for me, all the interviews I have with, with
chefs like you or people like you who are fugitive chefs, as I
call them, I always, I'm very curious to know how's things at
life level, like everyday level.Like for example, I spoke to
Eddie last week and Eddie was like, he misses, for example,
the rush. A lot of them say they miss the

(45:52):
rush of a kitchen. They miss the company or having
people around here not being say, PhD can be very lonely.
You know, in the end you are alone dealing with this, with
the you're going to be the face in the name behind this project
that you present at the end of your PhD.
But how is for you the experience?
How is life in a mental level, physical amount of time you
have? How's the comparison you would
make to being a chef in a kitchen?

(46:13):
To be very honest with you, I don't really miss it because
like one thing they have in a kitchen is a lot of routine.
So one thing that I like about like, let's say my, my job right
now is that I kind of like my day and there's a lot of
uncertainty and I love uncertainty in some way.
So for me, like having a day where I know that I'm gonna
start at 8:00 AM and I'm gonna finish at 5:00 PM and I know

(46:35):
exactly everything that's gonna happen that kills me a day that
I'm, I will confess, I, I work alot.
I I love working. So I might say from like, yeah,
8 to like whatever. And I don't mind it because I
kind of like cooking myself. So I don't really miss the
kitchen. Obviously there's the aspect of
having a team and a purpose, andI think that's really cool.
Like this, let's say the non food side of a kitchen, you

(46:58):
know, the commitment towards onesame objective for the amount of
conversations, like all of that.I miss it a lot, yes, but I
don't miss having to deal with food with my hands, if that
makes sense. No, completely.
Yeah, I think, yeah, it fits. It fits completely what you
said. Because I've never been really
good at it for a gun, to be fair.
I mean, I think you we didn't cross in Mogaris as like, you
know, you at that time you were working there and I was like a

(47:20):
mustache. But like, thanks God you didn't
because I was like, I don't know, like I have no
equilibrium, no sense of violence.
I have no sense of like order inthat, in that sense.
So, so I was really good with myhands.
So a big thank you for the kitchen, no.
Definitely. I think, and I mean, I, I
wouldn't agree with all of it, what you said, but I think like
you already explained as something I think Joseph said,

(47:42):
that's very clearly like Joseph said, people associate kitchen
people or chefs to be very creative or to be people who are
super creative. And I feel you are very
creative. I feel all the work you've done
all the all the time you spend together, I feel you're somebody
who thinks out-of-the-box, whichexplains why you see yourself as
a misfire in the kitchen. Because as Joseph said, I'll
quote him that kitchens are the most boring places because in

(48:03):
the end of the day only one person.
And he actually was quoting Heston from Fat Duck.
He said Heston said kitchens arethe least creative places
because one person gets to be creative and the rest are just
supposed to mimic and repeat that as much as possible.
Now Mugaritz is a very non organic place with all plates
look different, but the end, thecreative driver is if not one
person, it's one vision of how things have to be.

(48:24):
That's why for me it makes complete sense that you feel
that that's not your space, because you're supposed to
deliver like consistently the same kind of result.
Yeah, for sure. And there's like, there's this
Spanish like. He was a physicist.
But then he ended up being a philosopher.
He passed away a few years ago. His name is Jorge Wallens that I
really recommend him if you wantto like read a little bit of
creativity. I would say that like calories

(48:47):
fuel the muscles and change fuels the brain.
And if you want to keep on moving, you need to expose
yourself to change and you need to, you know, step yourself and
live it and comfortable. And hey, that can happen in a
kitchen as well. Like, you know, you can instead
of like putting the fish in thisposition every time, you can put
it like every day on a differentway.

(49:08):
I don't know. I mean, you affect yourself with
a different challenge definitely.
But it's easier to do it if you're outside because obviously
inside a kitchen you have a lot of pressure and then it's very
efficient, very, very efficient.So like there's not that much
room, as you said. And I completely agree with
that. But yeah, I think that everyone
is also responsible to like, even though if you're working on

(49:29):
a Lego factory, creating Lego blocks, you need to put yourself
with your context in the most uncomfortable position as
possible because that's going tofuel your brain under the, I
think, I hope. Oh, definitely.
Totally in agreement, Kuru. Before we run out of time, Kuru,
tell us a little about your PhD,because I mean, for those who do
not know, Kuru is in the first year of his PhD.

(49:50):
It's still very early, but stillI would like to know what's your
line of work? Because super interestingly, the
1st guest on the broadcast was Diane Lassa, who was the man
behind Amar Brewery where you'recurrently working and building
up your PhD. So tell us about what?
What does that feel like? What is?
What are the early stages of research?
OK, so so I'm doing an industrial PhD, which that means

(50:11):
that you need to spend around 50% of your time outside
university and you need to work in a company during that time.
And I approach the people at I'ma brewery, which for whoever is
listening and doesn't know what I'm a breweries that they make
non alcoholic pet, low alcoholicpet nuts throughout mix
consortia fermentation. So what it would be kind of like
a kombucha, they brew it and then they age it knowing what

(50:33):
they're doing and they come up with these incredible pet nuts
with like incredible bubbles andreally cool flavors.
And now am I in a, in a process of like changing a lot of
methodologies of production and changing a lot of like tools to
produce? They're like Danny's like
absolutely crazy Danny and the whole team that is there and add
on there. They're really cool people and

(50:54):
they have like a very interesting view of
fermentation, especially on on non or low alcohol Burbage.
And that's where my PhD fits very well because what I wanted
to do was to like study throughout, let's say statistics
in some way, what kind of outputs you could get from a
fermentation of just one micro. So like imagine I have one
strain of yeast that I like. And what I'm going to do with

(51:16):
the yeast is I'm going to put itin seven bioreactors with just
changing one condition. And maybe it could be pH, it
could be amount of oxygen that it can get access to, it could
be the sugar, the nitrogen, manythings.
And then throughout two years, you just gather a lot of data,
gather a lot of data, data, data, and then you kind of try
to build a Facebook of strengthswhere you kind of like know what

(51:40):
they're going to do with certainamount of certainty.
And that's what we're trying to do inside a map from the PhD
that is building what is called predictive models of
fermentation. And we do so by using these very
cool machines. Everything is, and it should be
around open science. And there's this company in
Canada and then a little bit of advertisement as well, but like

(52:02):
they, they are called π reactorsand they came out with a design
of a bioreactor with all of the functionalities that you could
expect from a bioreactor, but from like €240.00.
So normally a bioreactor could cost like 20,000 K.
So it's really cool. And we work with those very
little machines. We have a ton of them all in
line. And then we just carry a lot of

(52:24):
like little fermentations in order to pursue flavor and and
to try to understand how micro interactions work because it's
really fascinating. I'm sorry I'm speaking so much,
but this is now. Please, it's really cool.
This story I'm going to tell youhappened to me like a few weeks
ago and it made me think a lot about humanity.
And it was OK, so there's this non sacrifice yeast strain,

(52:46):
which is called mesnicobia. And you know, the first approach
to fermentation where you're studying it is like we should
focus on microbes because they cooperate together and they're
like super good friends. And they're like the best
metaphor for humanity to be as we should all be microbes, which
I think that it microbes are an insane metaphor to speak out
cooperation and well-being. But sometimes they can be very

(53:09):
evil. And this strain has like this
unique feature which when it's fermenting to make sure that
there's not other microbes thriving around, she produces
and I say sheet, it produces what is called pultaranic acid.
And these acid interacts with iron in the liquid and then it

(53:31):
turns thing. But The thing is like any
microorganism, most of them on these diakaryotes, they need
iron to grow. So this is strain doesn't even
need it, but he's cancelling it out just to make sure there's no
other microstriving. And I was like fragmentation.
It's not as friendly as we thought.
I thought it was interesting. Super off topic sorry and really
random but like. Yeah, No, no, I think, I think

(53:53):
all these words which simultaneously are growing with
us, which we are not aware aboutkind of also reflecting,
reflecting reality in all these small biospheres, you know, but
it's super interesting for me. It's like, yeah, very inspiring
to hear this coming from you. Because also for people who are
listening to the podcast where at like for the 1st 20 minutes
we're talking about like learning and hospitality and
kitchen in front of house and then you I mean, explaining
these very technical jobs that you're doing today.

(54:14):
And that is the whole point of the podcast, to show that
journeys like the ones you've made, it's a matter of four
years for me. It's like super cool to remember
that I saw you 4 years ago, fiveyears ago in Mugarat starting to
intern in a restaurant. And today where you are, it's a
it's a big leap, you know, And Ifeel the reason this podcast
exists and the reason we need tohear stories like yours is to
see the possibilities of how pivoting is never too early,

(54:36):
never too late. It's never, it's an endless
world, right? I mean, you can keep pivoting.
And I mean, who knows if if fiveyears later you are in still
kombucha world, you found something which is your next
pivot. And I feel, yeah, I think that's
for me the most inspirational part.
And a lot of it comes from just networking, knowing the right
people, going to your mentors, as you explained, and asking
them for advice and what you cando next.

(54:56):
But based on this guru. And to wrap this up for somebody
listening to you, like, think ofyourself five years ago
interning at a restaurant, not knowing if this is where, like
the world has told you, this is the, I mean, the epitome of
creativity you can reach and youstill have something more in
yourself, you know? So what would you say to
somebody like that? If they have an idea, should
they leap and how, how does how should they make that kind of a
leap? So I would say like, first of

(55:18):
all, take it easy. Like we are really good at
thinking that things are very important, but sometimes they
aren't. And I think that it's good to
have fun and to laugh and to nottake things too seriously
because you can take like you can be excellent without not
smiling, you know? And that's something very
important. Like people are there, calm

(55:39):
down, it's fine. Like tomorrow, my plant
hopefully will be green. You know, even though if I burn
down all of my PHC projects, probably a plant will be green.
Now relax. I would say also, obviously
respect yourself and especially respect your family and friends,
whoever you are, thanks to the people that surrounds you.
And when, especially maybe in kitchens and when you have an

(55:59):
ambition and maybe you can correlate to these as well.
The food can you? You sometimes forget that hey,
you have friends and you have a family.
Maybe not, but like at least myself, I have a family that I
love and I need to invest. If I could give an advice to
that person five years ago, I would really invest maybe more
time in your family and friends and also have fun.

(56:20):
Don't take things too seriously.And yeah, things happen for
recent, SO take it easy. No, totally, totally an
agreement. I think a lot of what you're
saying is, again, as you said, Ican relate with it.
And I feel it's also because howthis carrier is a very passion
driven, which is good. I think it lets you do things
that a normal person can't. It's the passion is the key
ingredient which lets you push yourself that much.

(56:42):
But again, it's very important to remember the cost of things,
to remember how it's still a carrier, it's still a job.
And there's always, you're not giving up on your dreams if
you're just changing them and directioning them into a
different, towards a different tide all together, right?
So, yeah, I think it's been a very fruitful conversation for
me. I think for somebody who has
known, you still have learned somuch from this conversation.

(57:02):
And I hope the same for people who listening to this.
I'm going to leave your links and your Instagram down here in
the description so people can follow your work and see what's
coming out of this, because I feel the PhD is going to
definitely come with a lot of cool results and also the things
that you're doing with Lollipop.And yeah, once again, thank you
for your time. Thank you for building this
platform. This is really awesome what

(57:22):
you're doing, so keep on pushingbecause it's really cool I.
Figured out that.