October 4, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode, omnichannel specialist Ntola Obazee talks about the reality of going where no brand (or at least your brand) has gone before.
Ntola speaks with Ger and Gordon about entering new markets successfully, inspiring your team to give their best, segmenting your market and curating your collections. She also gives first-hand insight into a successful entry into China.
Thinking of breaking into the Chinese market? Or any new market, for that matter? This episode is for you.
Want to bring about effective, and above all smooth, change? This episode is also for you.
Wondering where to concentrate your retail efforts? Guess what, this episode is for you too.
Join Ntola, Ger and Gordon in a conversation grounded in change and innovation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
This is Functional & Fabulous, the omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode, Ger gets philosophical...
No game plan ever survives the first punch in the face.
Gordon has some concerns...
I'm a bit worried.
(00:21):
And the reason why I'm a bit worried is that...
Ger says but...
Obviously the customer is always incredibly important, but...
Our guest asks a tough question...
Statistics say that people focus on sustainability, but are they really? Are they really?
Question.
No.
We lose our sound engineer...
(00:42):
Yes, she left us.
Abandoned us.
And everyone agrees that the intros are the best part of the podcast...
Okay, enough about the magnificent intros.
This episode of Functional & Fabulous is brought to you with pride by StudioForty9, retail ecommerce experts, omnichannel growth consultants and cut-through performance marketing specialists.
(01:06):
StudioForty9, where your digital retail success is built.
Hello and welcome to Functional & Fabulous.
Our guest today is Ntola Obazee.
Ntola describes herself as a seasoned leader and omnichannel expert.
But while chatting with her, I discovered that this is, in fact, an understated self-description for someone who's been at the leading edge of technical innovation for years, successfully introducing innovative technology to big retail at scale, overseeing programmes of change and successfully introducing brands into new global markets and bridging cultural chasms while doing so.
(01:41):
Ntola, it's a pleasure to have you here today.
I mean, wow.
I need to have that intro just waking me up every day.
Thank you so much for having me.
I think everybody needs a Ger intro.
Because they are brilliant.
Aren't they the best?
Okay, enough about the magnificent intros.
(02:02):
But I appreciate it, appreciate it.
Ntola, you told me when we spoke previously, you honed your business skills in Germany where you grew up.
You don't really have an accent at all, to be honest.
But you got your start in retail working at Jack Wolfskin, Inditex and Bestseller.
How important do you think was the formative part of your career in Germany for what came later?
(02:26):
Definitely.
I always like to quote Steve Jobs who, I mean, rest his soul, such an innovator, where he talked about connecting the dots in your life, in your career.
And at the time, I've always been interested in fashion.
I've always been interested in technology.
And we all remember the dial-up modem, getting onto the internet and things like that.
(02:48):
For me, I was like, wow, this is the future.
So starting off as working in businesses such as Inditex, which is now a global billion-dollar business, and then Bestseller, which is based in Denmark, and Jack Wolfskin, which is now global, and also leading the way in sustainability initiatives.
So I was always drawn to brands or businesses where they were in that fashion space, but they were something at the cusp.
(03:14):
They were at the cusp of developing something new, change or introducing something different to the consumer and also to their team.
I think that curiosity has always been there for me.
I think it's fascinating, as we spoke, I guess how innovative the German industry is when it comes to pushing forward change, and I guess actually taking action to push forward change.
(03:40):
I feel sometimes in ecommerce, as an ecommerce technical person, we are often talking about innovations and not actually really doing a lot in that.
But it seems to me from your experience that the German businesses have been pushing on quite a bit.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
(04:02):
So the innovation, obviously, when you're talking as a retailer or ecommerce, you always have to think about both sides.
And I remember the times, the early days where, I mean, it's always been about bricks and mortar and the KPIs and the deliverables.
And then suddenly there was this sexy little thing on the side called ecommerce that was coming along, and nobody really knew what the impact was going to be.
(04:26):
But as we see it now, as businesses, we have to be everywhere the customer is.
Everyone's looking on their phone.
I don't know how you shop, but I'm always price matching, checking where the best deal, checking where I can get the quickest delivery.
And the businesses that are coming up now, all the brands that are thinking about that omnichannel, making life easier, are the ones that are going to be ahead.
(04:50):
And yes, Germany is known for innovation and efficiency and leading forward with technology, I think has helped as well in driving that.
Yeah, you were telling me about, the story was, I think, Beeline accessories when they were trying to get into the UK and they realised that they needed to get the large retailers to adopt their technology.
(05:14):
And I kind of reflected on it and I thought, that would be an immediate blocker for most businesses in Ireland, certainly, maybe in the UK, I don't know.
But how did that work at the time?
Yeah, so at the time, Beeline was looking to launch in the UK market and they'd tried before to come to the UK market, but there were two sort of barriers or bottlenecks.
(05:36):
A, they didn't have a team here and then two, you need that team to convince and to train people here to use their technologies in terms of rolling out.
So for those who don't know, Beeline is one of the leading accessories businesses in the European market, very successful.
So they do white label and their own brand, and they had a technology at the point which would allow orders to be replaced, inventory checks for the teams and it required very little training, very easy to use and often flexible working.
(06:11):
So a key element of that business, why it's so successful is their technology.
And in order to embed that in other businesses, the key caveat was, well, we'll train the people for you.
We will show them how to use it.
We will manage the technology, the machines, et cetera.
And I think that is a big lesson, even now pushing forward to 2024, that when you are trying to introduce change, whether it's within your own business or working with a third party, there needs to be that, we're working together, it's a partnership, or I will hold your hand from the tech perspective and you can lead from the marketing perspective.
(06:49):
It needs to be that two-way approach, so important.
Yeah, I think the change, the programme for change or change management, finding nearly an ambassador or something in the company where you're looking to bring the change in, and listening to their concerns and so on, and addressing them and trying to bring that particular person or team along so that they can then embed this insight.
(07:16):
Is that how you did it?
Was that the approach?
Yeah, it's a bit like being a politician, but in the most diplomatic way possible, you need to sort of understand, it's evaluating exchanges and it's transactional.
What do I need to do to help you along the journey as well for that change?
And what are the challenges you're facing?
(07:38):
And that is the same approach I've used, whether it's a go-to-market strategy, going into a new country, whether it's restructuring a team or bringing in a new tech stack is, what's the benefit?
What's the upside for both parties?
And once you find that, usually it's the key to a successful change or transformation.
(07:58):
Yeah, I think change and innovation have been cornerstones of your career to date.
And I'm really interested to understand how you've balanced that across every single organisation that you've worked in, and how do you get people to buy into the benefits, particularly if you're bringing in, say, new software that automates processes for people when they're very used to being stuck on their spreadsheet?
(08:38):
Yeah, I think Excel will be around for a very long time.
I wonder how many businesses actually are still run pretty much exclusively on Excel.
I'd say the number's massive.
I don't know about exclusively, but I would definitely say probably 100% of businesses use Excel in some incredibly important way.
(09:02):
I think that's UK-centric.
And where you've been in situations where you've had to move people, you've had to wean people off Excel.
How has that happened?
What have been the kind of things that you've had to do?
Yeah, I think for me, it was a big shocker.
So when I moved from Germany, where I worked for businesses where the process is automated, you had your data, you could click of a button and you get all your analysis and happy days.
(09:32):
All you were focusing on was customer, product, marketing and team-building.
Brilliant. And strategy.
Whereas intentionally joining businesses here that were just at the cusp of scaling up or expanding, it was obviously different.
And you sort of applaud businesses that have gotten so far with what they had in terms of the tools.
(09:56):
I mean, let's not knock Excel.
It is brilliant if you know how to use it.
So it's still essential for businesses.
However, I will take technology or data aggregator any day to reduce the time in my life.
But just coming back to your question, I think the biggest thing always when you're dealing with people is, I keep on saying it, is what problem are you trying to solve?
(10:22):
And the biggest thing that you always hear is we've always done it this way.
We've tried to change, but it's never worked.
This project hasn't gone further because of X, Y and Z.
And you can even hear the frustration that from a management perspective, they were either not supported, the project team wasn't inclusive, their voice wasn't heard.
(10:44):
So it's really bringing people together for a project that involves change or transformation, where their voices are heard and they're allowed to speak up and contribute and talk about the challenges and actively play a part in that wheel of change, is really key.
If you're going in as a project leader or project owner, just wanting to boss everyone and lead from the top, you won't get very far.
(11:13):
I think it's bringing everyone across on board with you on that journey.
And outlining, this is the strategic mission or vision of the business.
However, at a day-to-day level, this is actually the change it will bring to you on a daily basis.
I think that have been sort of the key sweet spots that I've always tried to leverage on both ends of the spectrum.
(11:36):
So whether you're managing upwards from a shareholder board perspective or managing downwards to the person who just wants to, you know, be efficient in whatever they're doing from their department level.
And not spend two days pulling off their WSSIs.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's the whole crux of it is save time, do more.
(12:04):
Yeah.
And do more of things that matter.
Yeah, do more of things that matter is probably, it's that matter bit at the end is crucial.
Do you find, you know, when people are approaching, let's say a project of change, do you find that they give up too easily if they're, you know, there's always early setbacks and things like that.
(12:25):
It takes time to get traction.
You know, do you see people kind of, well, stakeholders we'll say, get frustrated and give up, you know, ahead of time?
Oh yeah, definitely.
I've had people in rooms say, oh, this is never going to work, or you've launched and you've had, if it's a project or new market launch where you had anticipated sales and the sales don't come through, the first question obviously is to you, the commercial person, to say, well, you forecasted, how come these sales haven't come through?
(12:56):
I was like, well, if my forecast was 100 per cent accurate, I'd be a very wealthy woman right now.
I think there'd be a business for me there.
But of course, people give up easily when they see things aren't working, when they see milestones aren't being achieved or you're not going to the next level because there is pressure, isn't it?
(13:18):
If you've been given that responsibility to change a process or implement something new within a business, there is that pressure.
But I think one of the things that I've always just done for myself is I've just taken accountability and say the ownership is with me, and that's helped my team to say, she stands with us regardless.
(13:42):
Whatever the outcome is going to be, if this works, when you do your risk and opportunities, your analysis, if this works, it's going to be amazing.
If it doesn't, I will deal with the consequences and hold my head up high, taking the chip off the shoulder even for my team.
And that has been really pivotal.
You always need someone who will, I don't want to say be the fallback person, but is willing to be held accountable.
(14:08):
And that will give the team the confidence to push through at different stages of that project.
Yeah, I really get that.
I think it's this thing of, rather than people trying to figure out who they need to prepare themselves to blame, because you can see that sometimes, you'll see people looking around the room going, who are we going to land this on if it goes wrong kind of a thing.
(14:31):
You're the target, so you're going to take the blame.
So now let's move on and get on with all the risks that we're going to take.
Yeah, I totally get that.
How hard would you say it is to open new markets?
How hard is it to get into a new market?
Like, you know, you've helped bring product into the United States and into China, you know, on a scale of one to 10, opening new markets, how difficult?
(14:57):
Opening new markets is exciting.
I think for me, the biggest thing is I've always looked at the brand and said, do they have a unique selling proposition?
Have they got something special about them from a product perspective that will make this journey worthwhile?
And if I can tick that box for myself and say, yes, then I know there's an opportunity here.
(15:20):
And then goes my project on the fact pack saying, this is what I think is going to happen.
This is how many years it'll take.
This is how many seasons.
And this is what we need to do.
When you're telling a brand, I know you love your product and your brand, but nobody knows you in these markets.
So the approach has to be different.
(15:40):
It's an eye-opening moment, isn't it?
Because they're like, well, my brand, everyone knows my brand.
Everyone loves it.
Everyone loves my product, my service.
But it's flipping back to say, Okay, nobody knows you in that market.
How do we now approach this?
How do we find the customers who are similar, the audiences, the platforms to sell?
(16:03):
And to be honest, I'm so happy that we live in an omnichannel environment because before, what would be the approach?
Retailer, you go to a real estate agent and find the most high-footfall area.
You open your store, lots of marketing buzz, and then you hope for the best that you break even in a few years' time.
(16:24):
If that's your flagship store, that's probably where you put your offices and your operations.
So you make it sort of be part of that whole cycle.
But now you can, there are marketplaces that are out there that you can utilise, which are sort of offline shops.
There's social media aspect that you have to think about.
There's so many areas that you can find that customer and even see how they're reacting as well, which is amazing because you can quickly pivot and shift if things aren't going well.
(16:54):
Because I feel with a retail store, there was probably a longer lead time traction to see if your business was successful.
You'd have the first few weeks of opening where everyone was coming in, but then week six, week 12, you're seeing, Okay, the customers, these are the customers who are coming in now and what to do.
So I think digital has been a very big catalyst in helping open new markets and helping brands expand because you can build that traction, but also change if you need to when you're going along the way.
(17:29):
So when you start working with a brand, what's obvious is you're not going to go near that brand unless you love their brand story and that you're excited about their brand story.
So when you then start working with that brand and they say, okay, we would like you to open a new territory, for argument's sake, let's say the US.
(17:54):
What is the first thing that you do when you land into the office and you start in that role - other than take a deep breath?
It's actually the other way around.
So not so much a love-the-brand story.
I've usually asked the questions beforehand saying, well, do you have any presence at all in that market?
(18:20):
What is that presence?
Have you done anything at...
So it gives me sort of, on that scale of one to 10 is, are we starting really from a standing start of zero, nothing, or do we have some traction in there that is sort of a way in the door, whether it's through interest leads, orders that are online coming through, or a project or a trade show that they've done?
(18:45):
Is there already a way in?
And that is sort of the first step.
If it's a blank canvas, and obviously when I've started in the office, it's like, oh my God, I have to now.
I think the reality sets in that I have to now make this happen.
Yeah, you're like, I can do this.
And then you go, I've committed to do this.
(19:05):
Yeah, to anyone listening, if you are in international, you have to have that, I call it a come to Jesus moment where you then say to yourself, you now have to make this happen in this market.
So what do you do?
Like, how do you approach it?
If it's a blank, because I'm sure there's people listening.
(19:25):
We've got a product.
It's great.
Customers love it here.
I'm sure customers would love this in the US.
It fixes a whole load of problems for them.
Whatever the product is.
Where would they even start?
Or where would you start?
And how can they learn from that?
So blank canvas, let's say you've got no traction, whether it's in the US, Europe or China, is looking at similar products in the market.
(19:52):
Is there someone else who is doing something similar?
And a bit of research on them would help to find out where they are, where they're selling.
And then America, for example, is massive.
You know, Asia, China is massive.
Europe is massive.
You have to pick one area, whether it's one country or one territory.
(20:13):
So if we're talking about the US, you can't go after the whole US.
It's just not possible.
You have to pick a territory.
Is it East Coast, West Coast?
Is it a particular state?
And if that is where similar products are being sold, that should be your focus to then get into that area, that specific market, that customer, that department store, that marketplace.
(20:38):
You have to start and build from that point.
And then obviously that halo effect as you grow allows you to expand into different, because it's very costly going into new territories.
There is a considerable investment required.
So whether it's from distribution or marketing or influences or social, there is a cost.
(20:59):
And that needs to be very clear when you're in that business, pulling your numbers together.
P&L should be your best friend.
You know, that profit and loss statement to say, hey, I know no business who's gone into a new territory who's broken even in the first year.
You're looking at three years, at least.
And unless you've gone viral and for some reason you've come in over the other end, there needs to be that realistic,
(21:24):
it's a long-term investment and we're doing it because we want to increase market share.
We see this as a territory where the business can grow and mature over time.
So I think it's blank canvas is looking at similar products, decide on a territory or country or tier, if it's China, and then pull those numbers together so that you're clear that it is a long-term investment.
(21:51):
Just out of curiosity, in terms - sorry Gordon - in terms of what you did for Emma Bridgewater, for example, which is a, for those who don't know the brand, here in Ireland, it is a pottery, handmade pottery product, very, an iconic brand in the UK.
Based in the iconic city of Stoke-on-Trent...
And who, what other icon comes from Stoke-on-Trent?
(22:13):
Couldn't possibly guess.
So the, bringing this product, the brand is unknown, obviously in China, pretty much, I guess.
Tell us a little bit about that.
How did you bring that product to China?
What did you think of China?
How do you think about China?
Yeah, do you know, it's, so just plugging Emma Bridgewater, they were, have been going for a very long time, 25-plus years, and she was always a digital-first business.
(22:42):
So the excitement of joining that business and having the data to say, this is actually where people are ordering.
This is what they're interested in.
And there is interest from international markets, was amazing because that was already, oh, we're not starting from a blank canvas.
And the reason why the China market was very interesting is because they're, they are, they love handmade, made in Britain or made in EU products.
(23:11):
They are fascinated by craftsmanship.
It's in their heritage.
It's in their culture.
So if you follow Chinese culture and the whole art and history behind them, there is that background and brands such as Wedgwood already established there.
You can see that a lot of British clothing brands that are, have heritage such as Burberry, et cetera, are doing very well there.
(23:36):
So there was sort of an opportunity to say, right, the heritage and the USP of the product will be brilliant.
And because they were already a digital business operating from an online perspective, it was an exciting project in terms of the marketplace because at the beginning, it wasn't about putting stock in the Chinese market.
(23:57):
It was, if we can find an integration with a third party that allows us to pick and pack the product here and ship it to China, happy days.
So we still, we have the assets, we've got the product and everything is still being done from the UK.
So low risk at that time.
And I had actually never travelled to China before.
(24:17):
So the Department for International Trade were doing a mission where they were taking British brands there and you could have meetings with distributors, retailers, et cetera.
So the whole idea of going there was to find out what is the best way.
Do we need a distributor?
Do we need a marketplace?
Do we need department stores similar to a Liberty here, et cetera?
(24:39):
And it was very eye-opening.
First of all, how culturally historic they are, but how technologically advanced they are as well as a territory and country.
They're 10 years ahead of the UK.
So I'll use a classic example of QR codes.
(25:00):
There were people begging on the street and they weren't taking cash for payments.
They had a QR code as the mode for you to donate to them.
Um, everything is cashless.
They have an ecosystem that is established in terms of, if you look at it here in terms of your Instagrams, your WhatsApp, your bank details, everything is integrated into that one system.
(25:26):
So when you go on that app, you're not having to come out of it to have your whole consumer journey.
And just when people accept your brand there, then the growth is exponential.
You can actually grow three times faster in China than in the US if you have the right investment.
(25:47):
So that was one of the attractive pieces is there was an opportunity to grow a brand in a country faster than probably in the US.
And that's what happened.
So from a standing start, the sales that were being achieved and the margin were really positive, and gaining that traction on all those social channels.
So if you go on, it's known as Little Red Book, Xiaohongshu, and you type in Emma Bridgewater, you can see all the traction with the unboxing and the Chinese consumer using it for their Chinese cuisine, not just afternoon tea.
(26:21):
And for me, that was when I sort of knew that we'd established ourselves, that they were actually using Emma Bridgewater bowls and products for their own food, happy days.
And you said, it was interesting,
you said, you know, you choose your country or your territory or in China, your tier.
What did you mean by that?
Yeah, so the Chinese continent is divided into tiers.
(26:44):
So tier one cities are, for example, Beijing and the bigger cities, and then it goes into further tiers.
So it is impossible for you to establish yourself as a brand across the whole of China at once.
You sort of have to decide where you want to pinpoint your key customers.
(27:05):
And they always advise, obviously you start with tier one because that's Beijing, Chengdu, Shenzhen.
And then as you expand into the rural areas or, I mean, you can't really call it rural because tier two or tier three cities are still major cities with massive infrastructure, universities...
They're so advanced and established.
(27:28):
So launching a brand in a lower tier city isn't actually a negative thing, but it gives you as a business of focus as to where you're focusing your marketing spend, where you're focusing your targeting for key opinion leaders, where you're focusing the distributors you may be targeting as well.
It has to be focused in that regard.
(27:50):
Key opinion leaders in China, I think we probably know those as influencers in Europe and in the US.
I think it's fascinating that there are cities that are bigger than countries in China.
So I think that's probably a helpful way to contextualise city tiering.
(28:13):
But even if you've made your decision, you're targeting a tier one or a tier two city, that still must be quite overwhelming.
So how important is partnership in a territory like China?
It is so important.
And the key word is partnership.
(28:33):
In the heyday of when I started out in retail, you'd find a distributor, you'd negotiate your terms and then you'd sign away everything, isn't it?
To them, and just let them get along.
Yeah, easy, right?
And build your business, you know?
Yeah, really straightforward.
Yeah.
But now you have to establish partnerships.
(28:55):
The distributors, or marketplace providers or third-party providers there, want to know that you as a brand or brand owner are just as invested as them in that country and building that business.
So that is from a brand marketing perspective, from your distribution, from your logistics, from how you communicate with your customer.
(29:20):
Do you understand or are you interested in the culture there as well?
That is such a big thing for them.
So all the conversations that you're having, apart from the normal, these are the terms, this is the commission, this is how much margin, this is how much going to cost.
Those are important.
But can you build long-term relationships that are not damaging to the brand?
(29:42):
Because we have heard of stories of brands that just have tried and failed in that market, in that territory.
But we have heard of partnerships that have worked really well.
So it's finding the right partner, someone who understands the nuances of your brand here and how to translate it to the customer and the consumer there is really key.
(30:04):
So typically what sort of partners would you be looking for?
Would you be looking for distributors?
Would you be looking for agencies, marketplaces?
What are the types of partners you need to engage with?
So the type of partnership that I managed to establish there was one based on, so we found a third party to manage the marketplaces and operations because we were at a point where we didn't want to establish an entity, so a business in China.
(30:32):
So we needed a third party to, so you can't do business in China unless you're established there as a business yourself, as a business entity, or you're working with a third party.
Those are the two options.
And the third party had expertise in online marketplaces, which was the easiest way to gain traction, and because the product is volumetric, heavy, et cetera,
(30:52):
looking to open bricks-and-mortar and ship volumetric heavy product was not the first instance or approach.
And working with them, we devised, or I devised with them a three-part strategy in terms of building social media marketplace, so working with a marketing agency, building the presence online, working with them on the integration, so integrating with the systems here in the UK and in China itself.
(31:23):
And then in that business plan, eventually the plan was to have some stock in China, because you do need that for the key periods and to reduce delivery windows, and hopefully establish some sort of distributor relationship that would allow one to get into stores.
So there was sort of a three-part plan in terms of launch this way, build on that presence, increase the sales, increase the brand presence, and then at some point move into a relationship where you have some sort of presence there as well.
(31:58):
I know some businesses have gone the direct distributor route, but I think this is a low-risk way of going in the market without having you to throw all your eggs in one basket, would be my approach, in my opinion.
And I'm really keen to know, did you end up in stores as well?
Yes, we did.
(32:19):
So we ended up in SKP, that's one of the top luxury department stores.
So very proud to have established ourselves there and was really happy to establish that relationship because when you were talking to influencers or other marketplaces, you could literally say, it's a bit like saying you're in Liberty in the UK, it's status and it's a good place to be in.
(32:41):
SKP, really great department store to be in.
So from Stoke-on-Trent to Shanghai, and that's fantastic to see that story coming back around then to the full omnichannel positioning that you're so passionate about.
Definitely.
I think that's what makes doing this job really exciting.
(33:05):
And I think, I mean, not even I think, I know I was doing omnichannel before it became a word, a thing that everyone was focusing on that just being everywhere the customer is, I don't believe there's such a thing as cannibalisation.
You always have to put yourself in the shoes of the customer, how they're operating, their consumer habits are changing, how they shop and it's constantly evolving.
(33:31):
And we're seeing lots of brands that are falling off, that have just disappeared off the face of the earth, or department stores that just don't exist because they just haven't evolved with how consumers are shopping now.
And I think that's key, even up-and-coming brands.
It's thinking about, now it's all about community, isn't it?
(33:52):
Building your community, telling your brand story, having those behind-the-scenes moments.
Gen Z are very interested in that, for some reason.
I'm interested in great product and value for money, but I think people are interested in brand stories and what's happening in the background as well.
And was there anything in terms of the Chinese customer, was there anything that surprised you or anything that you thought, well, I wasn't expecting this?
(34:20):
Yes, what surprised me is they are still very rooted in culture.
So they're very technical savvy, they've got their cell phones and everything, but if you are invited to a dinner, so food is a way of bringing people together, which is great if you love eating.
(34:43):
And there's one restaurant where we went to and it was a table of 10 and they prefer serving culture.
So you have different meals coming through and they had underneath the table, a drawer where you could put your phone.
So you had somewhere where you could place your phone underneath so that you could be completely immersed in the conversation.
(35:03):
Another thing that you could see where culture is very important to them is before Chinese New Year, everyone's really busy with buying all the gifts and presents and the major cities are... quiet off just before Chinese New Year.
So the shopping happens and then everyone travels home to see their families.
They're very invested in family and culture.
(35:25):
And I think for me, that was great to see because despite the fact that they are 10 times ahead in terms of technology, culture, values, their ethics, and you may disagree or agree with how they do things, but that is their culture and they're very rooted in that.
And that translates into the products they want to buy.
(35:46):
They want to know the details, the heritage behind a product.
They want to know how it was made and all these intricacies, which I don't know so much if the European or UK customer is concerned about that.
I mean, statistics say that people focus on sustainability, but are they really?
(36:07):
Are they really?
Question.
No. Well...
We could talk about that for days...
That would, that would, yeah...
I was, I'm curious just, because it's quite interesting, you know, and you bring up, you raise a good point when you're talking about the heritage and the kind of the behind-the-scenes and the community building.
(36:27):
Like, I think ecommerce for a while, we had the era of the catalogue, you know, bringing as many products as we possibly could lay our hands on, onto an ecommerce site, selling absolutely everything.
And I think we're moving a little bit more now into the era of the customer.
At least, you know, and there's this kind of an acknowledgement of the distinction, I feel at least, there's an acknowledgement of the distinction between the buying mission and the shopping experience.
(36:59):
And you, and I think we're starting to see a little bit of difficulty for some of those very large online merchants who focus mainly on the huge catalogues.
And so it's interesting to me that you see this, you know, this cultural piece and this bit that's interested in the brand.
And that's, I think that's great because that makes it feel like people who go to the trouble of creating a brand or creating a community, you know, and creating a retail shopping experience, have a chance of winning.
(37:33):
Whereas, you know, there was this kind of concept sometimes that you nearly need to be an Amazon.
You need to have all of the product in the world in order to win online.
I don't know, can you talk to that a little bit?
How do you, does that make sense?
Yeah, I think the three categories, when I sort of look at brands that are doing well or either have reinvented themselves.
(37:54):
So if you think about, we can start from top-tier luxury.
One of the most successful luxury retailers at the moment is Mytheresa.
They're based out of Munich and they have surpassed in profit, sales, what Farfetch, Net-A-Porter, et cetera have all tried to do.
And I was reading one of their notes this week where they talked about, we have focused on good product, ensuring that from our digital perspective, we're not, we're surprising and delighting, but we're not cluttering the customer's feed with endless collections that they don't need to see.
(38:30):
So it's very curated and they've been very focused on that.
So that's probably key to their success of staying true to what they do.
Yeah, I'm looking at... Sorry, go on, excuse me...
Yeah, and then if you look at, from a sportswear perspective, I mean, the return of the Samba and the Gazelle, I mean, Adidas is just, they've lost Yeezy, so Kanye West.
(38:51):
So they've said, let's go back to what we're doing now and focus on a key iconic product, and have it in as many colours as possible.
But they've segmented their market in terms of where you can find those products as well, which is very interesting.
But also there are smaller brands who have then either said, we're going to have smaller curated collections.
(39:14):
We're not going to be on Amazon and we're just going to be on the platforms, either DTC or marketplaces that we choose.
I feel as a brand, you need to decide which lane you want to go in.
Either you're very curated or if you have larger collections, you have to segment if you're going to be on a platform such as Amazon or other, or you just have very small collections, small drops, and you accept that your product is either only in your DTC platforms or smaller boutiques, et cetera.
(39:46):
I'm looking at this Mytheresa site, it must be one of the most beautifully merchandised ecommerce stores I've ever looked at.
We love a bit of ecommerce merchandising, Ger.
There are two stories I'm following at the moment, to that end.
I'm not sure if you're aware of them at all, Ntola.
There's The Row, the Olsen Twins.
(40:09):
I think that's another great story that plays into all of the points that you've just raised.
I think they do quiet luxury incredibly well.
Incredibly well, exactly that, yeah.
And small curated collections of great product.
And I think the other one is in a slightly different vertical.
(40:32):
It's in cosmetics.
It is Haus Labs, the, Lady Gaga's brand.
And I think there's a story there of, that started off as an affordable brand and it was sold on Amazon, and it did okay.
But then as the brand started to then focus in onto, I think, foundation as the product, they've then become famous for their foundation, pulled their distribution from Amazon and now they're one of the top brands being sold in Sephora and they've seen huge success by actually going really niche and being really good at something in a niche.
(41:18):
So I think that sits on one scale as you've described.
And then you've got, if you're going to do the other side, you've got to be everywhere.
And then if you look at some of the fashion, fast fashion brands, they execute very, very well in terms of understanding their customer and customer data before they then go into mass production.
(41:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, if you look at mass market, it's interesting.
When I started off at Inditex, I loved the fact that you could go to the flagship stores and you could find almost every new collection you could find there.
But obviously as they've grown and expanded, you can only find certain collections in certain cities, which for me is frustrating as a shopper because I just want to go in the store and find what I'm looking for.
(42:09):
But I do understand why they've had to do that with their distribution because they probably have the data to see who is who is shopping there.
What does that cohort of customers look like?
So it's an interesting one because I think a lot of, let's say, mid-price, high-street brands, as we talk about the UK and Ireland are in that dilemma this year where they want to grow, but they have to be profitable.
(42:35):
So focusing on profit is important.
And that has meant that a lot of brands have had to look at their distribution and say, Okay, yes, we accept that you have to be everywhere the customer is, but to what end in terms of profitability, time, efficiency, collections?
So I think there's been a lot of businesses have had to take a step back to say, maybe we need fewer collections.
(43:01):
Maybe we do need to tighten the range.
Or if we're not doing that, we need to tighten the distribution for now so that we can continue to operate as a business and be profitable.
And then maybe at some point, think about, is this a path or area we want to present in?
And they're quite big questions.
So bringing it full circle, you kind of need that underlying technological change to be delivered in your business, to give you that data insight so that you're not sitting there pulling the data together.
(43:32):
You're sitting there and analysing the data, finding out what that means so that you can make better decisions.
So that brings us right the way around to making sure that you've got that right tech stack in your business.
And that is very neat, Gordon, because we have also run out of time.
So it's great to bring the whole thing full circle.
(43:55):
Isn't that beautiful?
It was a beautiful thing.
I love that.
Yes, it comes down to your tech stack and making sure you have the right data so you're not working in silos to make the right decisions for your business.
Thanks so much, Ntola.
It's been a fascinating conversation.
Really, really appreciate you joining us here today.
(44:15):
Awesome.
Thank you very much.
That was interesting.
I actually, I really, really enjoyed the conversation.
I think it's, you know, understated for me is probably a description.
You know, there's so much experience delivered in a very, very understated way.
But the conversation just towards the end around the curated product range and curated collections, I think is, I think it's very interesting.
(44:42):
I really feel about that, you know, that era of the catalogue and now we're moving into... it feels that we're moving more towards the era of the customer.
And obviously the customer is always incredibly important.
But from a technical point of view, we were nearly overexcited with our ability to pull data and product into an ecommerce store.
(45:04):
Well, here's the thing.
Give us the thing.
The thing.
I'm a bit worried.
And the reason why I'm a bit worried is that I'm talking to, when I talk to different people, you know, you go to events and you're like chatting around and there are loads of people launching marketplaces within their own business.
(45:24):
And they're saying, Okay, well, we're going to add a marketplace on and we're going to increase our SKU count.
One of the things that has occurred to me is if everybody has a marketplace and everybody has everyone on the marketplace, then that just leads you to this homogenous pile of the sameness.
And I just don't think everyone could be Amazon.
(45:45):
There's so much more value in curation.
And you look at the brands that are really, really doing well and you think, wow, actually curation plays a huge part in that.
And I guess it's horses for courses.
Well, part of the promise of, let's say, the retail media side of things and we'll say creating your kind of, you know, marketplace within the site.
(46:13):
I suppose part of the promise of that was based on knowing the customer.
So, like, when you were talking about, you know, we talked with Paul Stafford in Superdrug a while back and he was explaining how the businesses that they're working with are trying to understand what the customers are looking to buy, what the audiences are like and then service that customer, pay to be there to service the customer.
(46:38):
I suppose because the way, you know, advertising works, you know, sometimes people overdo it and just kind of splash the cash and try and cover as much as they can.
And maybe that's when the curation ends.
But part, I guess, of the marketplace promise was to, by understanding the customer, to service them better but allowing brands to pay to be in front of the customer.
(47:07):
I think we should watch this and see how that one plays out.
But just in that conversation there, there's so many themes to jump on.
There was everything covered from, you know, technical change, organisational change, like change management, to then deliver that vision of being able to properly understand the customer and not spend days getting the data together so that you can make a quick judgment.
(47:39):
Yeah, there's some interesting things.
I personally am a big fan of the plan on the back of a fag packet.
Briefly mentioned, but I think if you can't, if you can't put your plan on the back of a fag packet, you know, like you're going to run into difficulty early on.
So I kind of like that one.
And the whole kind of change management when you're trying to identify... that piece about accepting the accountability or taking the responsibility on yourself and then allowing people to relax into their role to deliver the thing without worrying about whether or not they're going to be blamed for it or who they need to shift the blame to.
(48:18):
Which is great when it's going well.
Yeah.
When it's not going so well, that's quite difficult for your shoulders.
But you see it, you see it in change.
You know, when a change is coming in, sometimes people are so, they're so fixated on all of the risk and the downside that they're kind of, they're almost self-sabotaging.
(48:39):
You know, it's like, get out of your, you know, got to get out of your own way a small bit and plow on with that change.
I thought that was an interesting point, though, I see, I've seen that.
And I think that piece about the leader taking the accountability and saying, look, here's my, here's my fag packet plan.
Here's what we're trying to do.
(49:00):
It's going to take three years.
Here's the capital that we'll need for it.
Now let's commit to it.
And if it goes wrong, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to be accountable and figure it out.
And the figure it out bit's really important, making those course corrections, because it seldom goes exactly to plan.
Never goes...
Whether it's that plan is on a fag packet or a 400-page deck.
(49:20):
Exactly.
It never goes perfectly.
And there's always some spanner in the works somewhere.
And I think having, if you're in that position and you've got that on your shoulders, having the ability to, to just work through that and understand the why, as opposed to go straight to the, who am I going to blame?
You have to be able to rely on your retailer reflexes.
(49:42):
And, you know, you do.
And it's up, it's back to that...
Do you know the Muhammad Ali quote?
No, no game plan ever survives the first punch in the face.
It's totally true though, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's when the reflexes come and you've got to be able to rely on them.
Yeah.
And then, then you can, then you can kind of have a bit of fun with it.
I think then, like, the other thing that I really enjoyed was just the, like, the idea of just forging into new markets and just, you can imagine...
(50:16):
You do like a bit of forging.
I do like a bit of forging.
Bit of forging, and foraging.
Yeah, you've got Viking blood in there.
I think I have a little bit.
I've got to forge.
I'll get a new hat with some horns.
But this idea of actually going, yeah, you know what?
I'm going to take on a new market.
(50:36):
And then walking into the office going, right, how am I going to take on a new market?
Yeah, yeah.
Especially if the playbook's not written for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, we didn't cover it in great detail, but just, I'm a big fan of the, let's say, make it wash its own face.
(50:59):
You know, we're not going to break even, but we've got to get close to that.
And not investing hugely in advance.
And so Ntola was talking about how they approached the Chinese market.
And, you know, they gave themselves, they gave themselves, let's say, an opportunity for growth without, you know, investing so heavily that it was panic stations all the way through.
(51:21):
Yeah, I think it all depends on your, I suppose, it's having a balanced attitude towards risk.
And then the amount of capital that you've got to take that risk with.
So you could take a lower risk, more steady approach to growth, or the very, very high risk, potentially very, very high reward, but also with that high risk comes the, well, the risk of losing huge sums.
(51:55):
And I like that there are tools which, say, you can go either route, but you have to be very careful about, as she explained, the partners that you're selecting and the route that you take.
Yeah, and I think you just need to be clear yourself about, you know, what the risk is.
Are you, do you have the appetite for it?
And will you, do you have the commitment?
(52:15):
Yeah.
You know, and as you say, you know, it's great when you're in the room and you're, you know, I got, you got the bag pack and you're ready to go and you're, you're forecasting.
And then the next day you walk into the office and you're like, right, okay...
But there's the other part of it, which is after Q1 and you're, you're sending in the sales figures and all the rest of it.
Yeah.
(52:35):
You know...
That, that must be tough.
So you've, you've not hit your sales numbers, but you know that if you're on the right path, if you know your customer and you've taken your time to learn about your customer, then, and you are doing the right things.
You've got a great brand.
You've got a great story.
You're getting in front of the right people.
Then at some point, you will reach that tipping point where it begins to gain traction.
(53:01):
And if you've done all of your change management properly, supply chain will be right behind you.
It must be, must be nice to, to be able to go back in then several years later and say, right, well, you know, this was what we planned to do.
Here was my three-part strategy.
And now we're inside in these stores.
You know, it must be very, very pleasing.
(53:22):
Yeah, I'd say the sense of satisfaction there was enormous.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, well, we'll leave it there.
Thanks so much for listening.
It's been another great episode.
Thanks, Gordon.
Thanks, Ger.
Catch you next time.
Take care.
Ger, could you just say, and thanks to Daniel who stepped in as sound engineer?
(53:44):
It's been another great episode.
Thanks to our lovely new stepped in sound engineer, Daniel.
The precious Elaine abandoned us.
Yes, she left us.
Abandoned us.
I know.
But look, Daniel, thank you.
She told us she would never leave.
But Daniel, you filled the boots.
And they were big shoes to fill.
(54:05):
Thanks so much.
You've been listening to Functional & Fabulous with Ger Keohane and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast or about StudioForty9 and Omnichannel stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie. Our sound engineer was Elaine Smith and the show was produced by Roger Overall.
This is Functional & Fabulous, the omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode, Ger gets philosophical...
No game plan ever survives the first punch in the face.
Gordon has some concerns...
I'm a bit worried.
(00:21):
And the reason why I'm a bit worried is that...
Ger says but...
Obviously the customer is always incredibly important, but...
Our guest asks a tough question...
Statistics say that people focus on sustainability, but are they really? Are they really?
Question.
No.
We lose our sound engineer...
(00:42):
Yes, she left us.
Abandoned us.
And everyone agrees that the intros are the best part of the podcast...
Okay, enough about the magnificent intros.
This episode of Functional & Fabulous is brought to you with pride by StudioForty9, retail ecommerce experts, omnichannel growth consultants and cut-through performance marketing specialists.
(01:06):
StudioForty9, where your digital retail success is built.
Hello and welcome to Functional & Fabulous.
Our guest today is Ntola Obazee.
Ntola describes herself as a seasoned leader and omnichannel expert.
But while chatting with her, I discovered that this is, in fact, an understated self-description for someone who's been at the leading edge of technical innovation for years, successfully introducing innovative technology to big retail at scale, overseeing programmes of change and successfully introducing brands into new global markets and bridging cultural chasms while doing so.
(01:41):
Ntola, it's a pleasure to have you here today.
I mean, wow.
I need to have that intro just waking me up every day.
Thank you so much for having me.
I think everybody needs a Ger intro.
Because they are brilliant.
Aren't they the best?
Okay, enough about the magnificent intros.
(02:02):
But I appreciate it, appreciate it.
Ntola, you told me when we spoke previously, you honed your business skills in Germany where you grew up.
You don't really have an accent at all, to be honest.
But you got your start in retail working at Jack Wolfskin, Inditex and Bestseller.
How important do you think was the formative part of your career in Germany for what came later?
(02:26):
Definitely.
I always like to quote Steve Jobs who, I mean, rest his soul, such an innovator, where he talked about connecting the dots in your life, in your career.
And at the time, I've always been interested in fashion.
I've always been interested in technology.
And we all remember the dial-up modem, getting onto the internet and things like that.
(02:48):
For me, I was like, wow, this is the future.
So starting off as working in businesses such as Inditex, which is now a global billion-dollar business, and then Bestseller, which is based in Denmark, and Jack Wolfskin, which is now global, and also leading the way in sustainability initiatives.
So I was always drawn to brands or businesses where they were in that fashion space, but they were something at the cusp.
(03:14):
They were at the cusp of developing something new, change or introducing something different to the consumer and also to their team.
I think that curiosity has always been there for me.
I think it's fascinating, as we spoke, I guess how innovative the German industry is when it comes to pushing forward change, and I guess actually taking action to push forward change.
(03:40):
I feel sometimes in ecommerce, as an ecommerce technical person, we are often talking about innovations and not actually really doing a lot in that.
But it seems to me from your experience that the German businesses have been pushing on quite a bit.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
(04:02):
So the innovation, obviously, when you're talking as a retailer or ecommerce, you always have to think about both sides.
And I remember the times, the early days where, I mean, it's always been about bricks and mortar and the KPIs and the deliverables.
And then suddenly there was this sexy little thing on the side called ecommerce that was coming along, and nobody really knew what the impact was going to be.
(04:26):
But as we see it now, as businesses, we have to be everywhere the customer is.
Everyone's looking on their phone.
I don't know how you shop, but I'm always price matching, checking where the best deal, checking where I can get the quickest delivery.
And the businesses that are coming up now, all the brands that are thinking about that omnichannel, making life easier, are the ones that are going to be ahead.
(04:50):
And yes, Germany is known for innovation and efficiency and leading forward with technology, I think has helped as well in driving that.
Yeah, you were telling me about, the story was, I think, Beeline accessories when they were trying to get into the UK and they realised that they needed to get the large retailers to adopt their technology.
(05:14):
And I kind of reflected on it and I thought, that would be an immediate blocker for most businesses in Ireland, certainly, maybe in the UK, I don't know.
But how did that work at the time?
Yeah, so at the time, Beeline was looking to launch in the UK market and they'd tried before to come to the UK market, but there were two sort of barriers or bottlenecks.
(05:36):
A, they didn't have a team here and then two, you need that team to convince and to train people here to use their technologies in terms of rolling out.
So for those who don't know, Beeline is one of the leading accessories businesses in the European market, very successful.
So they do white label and their own brand, and they had a technology at the point which would allow orders to be replaced, inventory checks for the teams and it required very little training, very easy to use and often flexible working.
(06:11):
So a key element of that business, why it's so successful is their technology.
And in order to embed that in other businesses, the key caveat was, well, we'll train the people for you.
We will show them how to use it.
We will manage the technology, the machines, et cetera.
And I think that is a big lesson, even now pushing forward to 2024, that when you are trying to introduce change, whether it's within your own business or working with a third party, there needs to be that, we're working together, it's a partnership, or I will hold your hand from the tech perspective and you can lead from the marketing perspective.
(06:49):
It needs to be that two-way approach, so important.
Yeah, I think the change, the programme for change or change management, finding nearly an ambassador or something in the company where you're looking to bring the change in, and listening to their concerns and so on, and addressing them and trying to bring that particular person or team along so that they can then embed this insight.
(07:16):
Is that how you did it?
Was that the approach?
Yeah, it's a bit like being a politician, but in the most diplomatic way possible, you need to sort of understand, it's evaluating exchanges and it's transactional.
What do I need to do to help you along the journey as well for that change?
And what are the challenges you're facing?
(07:38):
And that is the same approach I've used, whether it's a go-to-market strategy, going into a new country, whether it's restructuring a team or bringing in a new tech stack is, what's the benefit?
What's the upside for both parties?
And once you find that, usually it's the key to a successful change or transformation.
(07:58):
Yeah, I think change and innovation have been cornerstones of your career to date.
And I'm really interested to understand how you've balanced that across every single organisation that you've worked in, and how do you get people to buy into the benefits, particularly if you're bringing in, say, new software that automates processes for people when they're very used to being stuck on their spreadsheet?
(08:38):
Yeah, I think Excel will be around for a very long time.
I wonder how many businesses actually are still run pretty much exclusively on Excel.
I'd say the number's massive.
I don't know about exclusively, but I would definitely say probably 100% of businesses use Excel in some incredibly important way.
(09:02):
I think that's UK-centric.
And where you've been in situations where you've had to move people, you've had to wean people off Excel.
How has that happened?
What have been the kind of things that you've had to do?
Yeah, I think for me, it was a big shocker.
So when I moved from Germany, where I worked for businesses where the process is automated, you had your data, you could click of a button and you get all your analysis and happy days.
(09:32):
All you were focusing on was customer, product, marketing and team-building.
Brilliant. And strategy.
Whereas intentionally joining businesses here that were just at the cusp of scaling up or expanding, it was obviously different.
And you sort of applaud businesses that have gotten so far with what they had in terms of the tools.
(09:56):
I mean, let's not knock Excel.
It is brilliant if you know how to use it.
So it's still essential for businesses.
However, I will take technology or data aggregator any day to reduce the time in my life.
But just coming back to your question, I think the biggest thing always when you're dealing with people is, I keep on saying it, is what problem are you trying to solve?
(10:22):
And the biggest thing that you always hear is we've always done it this way.
We've tried to change, but it's never worked.
This project hasn't gone further because of X, Y and Z.
And you can even hear the frustration that from a management perspective, they were either not supported, the project team wasn't inclusive, their voice wasn't heard.
(10:44):
So it's really bringing people together for a project that involves change or transformation, where their voices are heard and they're allowed to speak up and contribute and talk about the challenges and actively play a part in that wheel of change, is really key.
If you're going in as a project leader or project owner, just wanting to boss everyone and lead from the top, you won't get very far.
(11:13):
I think it's bringing everyone across on board with you on that journey.
And outlining, this is the strategic mission or vision of the business.
However, at a day-to-day level, this is actually the change it will bring to you on a daily basis.
I think that have been sort of the key sweet spots that I've always tried to leverage on both ends of the spectrum.
(11:36):
So whether you're managing upwards from a shareholder board perspective or managing downwards to the person who just wants to, you know, be efficient in whatever they're doing from their department level.
And not spend two days pulling off their WSSIs.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's the whole crux of it is save time, do more.
(12:04):
Yeah.
And do more of things that matter.
Yeah, do more of things that matter is probably, it's that matter bit at the end is crucial.
Do you find, you know, when people are approaching, let's say a project of change, do you find that they give up too easily if they're, you know, there's always early setbacks and things like that.
(12:25):
It takes time to get traction.
You know, do you see people kind of, well, stakeholders we'll say, get frustrated and give up, you know, ahead of time?
Oh yeah, definitely.
I've had people in rooms say, oh, this is never going to work, or you've launched and you've had, if it's a project or new market launch where you had anticipated sales and the sales don't come through, the first question obviously is to you, the commercial person, to say, well, you forecasted, how come these sales haven't come through?
(12:56):
I was like, well, if my forecast was 100 per cent accurate, I'd be a very wealthy woman right now.
I think there'd be a business for me there.
But of course, people give up easily when they see things aren't working, when they see milestones aren't being achieved or you're not going to the next level because there is pressure, isn't it?
(13:18):
If you've been given that responsibility to change a process or implement something new within a business, there is that pressure.
But I think one of the things that I've always just done for myself is I've just taken accountability and say the ownership is with me, and that's helped my team to say, she stands with us regardless.
(13:42):
Whatever the outcome is going to be, if this works, when you do your risk and opportunities, your analysis, if this works, it's going to be amazing.
If it doesn't, I will deal with the consequences and hold my head up high, taking the chip off the shoulder even for my team.
And that has been really pivotal.
You always need someone who will, I don't want to say be the fallback person, but is willing to be held accountable.
(14:08):
And that will give the team the confidence to push through at different stages of that project.
Yeah, I really get that.
I think it's this thing of, rather than people trying to figure out who they need to prepare themselves to blame, because you can see that sometimes, you'll see people looking around the room going, who are we going to land this on if it goes wrong kind of a thing.
(14:31):
You're the target, so you're going to take the blame.
So now let's move on and get on with all the risks that we're going to take.
Yeah, I totally get that.
How hard would you say it is to open new markets?
How hard is it to get into a new market?
Like, you know, you've helped bring product into the United States and into China, you know, on a scale of one to 10, opening new markets, how difficult?
(14:57):
Opening new markets is exciting.
I think for me, the biggest thing is I've always looked at the brand and said, do they have a unique selling proposition?
Have they got something special about them from a product perspective that will make this journey worthwhile?
And if I can tick that box for myself and say, yes, then I know there's an opportunity here.
(15:20):
And then goes my project on the fact pack saying, this is what I think is going to happen.
This is how many years it'll take.
This is how many seasons.
And this is what we need to do.
When you're telling a brand, I know you love your product and your brand, but nobody knows you in these markets.
So the approach has to be different.
(15:40):
It's an eye-opening moment, isn't it?
Because they're like, well, my brand, everyone knows my brand.
Everyone loves it.
Everyone loves my product, my service.
But it's flipping back to say, Okay, nobody knows you in that market.
How do we now approach this?
How do we find the customers who are similar, the audiences, the platforms to sell?
(16:03):
And to be honest, I'm so happy that we live in an omnichannel environment because before, what would be the approach?
Retailer, you go to a real estate agent and find the most high-footfall area.
You open your store, lots of marketing buzz, and then you hope for the best that you break even in a few years' time.
(16:24):
If that's your flagship store, that's probably where you put your offices and your operations.
So you make it sort of be part of that whole cycle.
But now you can, there are marketplaces that are out there that you can utilise, which are sort of offline shops.
There's social media aspect that you have to think about.
There's so many areas that you can find that customer and even see how they're reacting as well, which is amazing because you can quickly pivot and shift if things aren't going well.
(16:54):
Because I feel with a retail store, there was probably a longer lead time traction to see if your business was successful.
You'd have the first few weeks of opening where everyone was coming in, but then week six, week 12, you're seeing, Okay, the customers, these are the customers who are coming in now and what to do.
So I think digital has been a very big catalyst in helping open new markets and helping brands expand because you can build that traction, but also change if you need to when you're going along the way.
(17:29):
So when you start working with a brand, what's obvious is you're not going to go near that brand unless you love their brand story and that you're excited about their brand story.
So when you then start working with that brand and they say, okay, we would like you to open a new territory, for argument's sake, let's say the US.
(17:54):
What is the first thing that you do when you land into the office and you start in that role - other than take a deep breath?
It's actually the other way around.
So not so much a love-the-brand story.
I've usually asked the questions beforehand saying, well, do you have any presence at all in that market?
(18:20):
What is that presence?
Have you done anything at...
So it gives me sort of, on that scale of one to 10 is, are we starting really from a standing start of zero, nothing, or do we have some traction in there that is sort of a way in the door, whether it's through interest leads, orders that are online coming through, or a project or a trade show that they've done?
(18:45):
Is there already a way in?
And that is sort of the first step.
If it's a blank canvas, and obviously when I've started in the office, it's like, oh my God, I have to now.
I think the reality sets in that I have to now make this happen.
Yeah, you're like, I can do this.
And then you go, I've committed to do this.
(19:05):
Yeah, to anyone listening, if you are in international, you have to have that, I call it a come to Jesus moment where you then say to yourself, you now have to make this happen in this market.
So what do you do?
Like, how do you approach it?
If it's a blank, because I'm sure there's people listening.
(19:25):
We've got a product.
It's great.
Customers love it here.
I'm sure customers would love this in the US.
It fixes a whole load of problems for them.
Whatever the product is.
Where would they even start?
Or where would you start?
And how can they learn from that?
So blank canvas, let's say you've got no traction, whether it's in the US, Europe or China, is looking at similar products in the market.
(19:52):
Is there someone else who is doing something similar?
And a bit of research on them would help to find out where they are, where they're selling.
And then America, for example, is massive.
You know, Asia, China is massive.
Europe is massive.
You have to pick one area, whether it's one country or one territory.
(20:13):
So if we're talking about the US, you can't go after the whole US.
It's just not possible.
You have to pick a territory.
Is it East Coast, West Coast?
Is it a particular state?
And if that is where similar products are being sold, that should be your focus to then get into that area, that specific market, that customer, that department store, that marketplace.
(20:38):
You have to start and build from that point.
And then obviously that halo effect as you grow allows you to expand into different, because it's very costly going into new territories.
There is a considerable investment required.
So whether it's from distribution or marketing or influences or social, there is a cost.
(20:59):
And that needs to be very clear when you're in that business, pulling your numbers together.
P&L should be your best friend.
You know, that profit and loss statement to say, hey, I know no business who's gone into a new territory who's broken even in the first year.
You're looking at three years, at least.
And unless you've gone viral and for some reason you've come in over the other end, there needs to be that realistic,
(21:24):
it's a long-term investment and we're doing it because we want to increase market share.
We see this as a territory where the business can grow and mature over time.
So I think it's blank canvas is looking at similar products, decide on a territory or country or tier, if it's China, and then pull those numbers together so that you're clear that it is a long-term investment.
(21:51):
Just out of curiosity, in terms - sorry Gordon - in terms of what you did for Emma Bridgewater, for example, which is a, for those who don't know the brand, here in Ireland, it is a pottery, handmade pottery product, very, an iconic brand in the UK.
Based in the iconic city of Stoke-on-Trent...
And who, what other icon comes from Stoke-on-Trent?
(22:13):
Couldn't possibly guess.
So the, bringing this product, the brand is unknown, obviously in China, pretty much, I guess.
Tell us a little bit about that.
How did you bring that product to China?
What did you think of China?
How do you think about China?
Yeah, do you know, it's, so just plugging Emma Bridgewater, they were, have been going for a very long time, 25-plus years, and she was always a digital-first business.
(22:42):
So the excitement of joining that business and having the data to say, this is actually where people are ordering.
This is what they're interested in.
And there is interest from international markets, was amazing because that was already, oh, we're not starting from a blank canvas.
And the reason why the China market was very interesting is because they're, they are, they love handmade, made in Britain or made in EU products.
(23:11):
They are fascinated by craftsmanship.
It's in their heritage.
It's in their culture.
So if you follow Chinese culture and the whole art and history behind them, there is that background and brands such as Wedgwood already established there.
You can see that a lot of British clothing brands that are, have heritage such as Burberry, et cetera, are doing very well there.
(23:36):
So there was sort of an opportunity to say, right, the heritage and the USP of the product will be brilliant.
And because they were already a digital business operating from an online perspective, it was an exciting project in terms of the marketplace because at the beginning, it wasn't about putting stock in the Chinese market.
(23:57):
It was, if we can find an integration with a third party that allows us to pick and pack the product here and ship it to China, happy days.
So we still, we have the assets, we've got the product and everything is still being done from the UK.
So low risk at that time.
And I had actually never travelled to China before.
(24:17):
So the Department for International Trade were doing a mission where they were taking British brands there and you could have meetings with distributors, retailers, et cetera.
So the whole idea of going there was to find out what is the best way.
Do we need a distributor?
Do we need a marketplace?
Do we need department stores similar to a Liberty here, et cetera?
(24:39):
And it was very eye-opening.
First of all, how culturally historic they are, but how technologically advanced they are as well as a territory and country.
They're 10 years ahead of the UK.
So I'll use a classic example of QR codes.
(25:00):
There were people begging on the street and they weren't taking cash for payments.
They had a QR code as the mode for you to donate to them.
Um, everything is cashless.
They have an ecosystem that is established in terms of, if you look at it here in terms of your Instagrams, your WhatsApp, your bank details, everything is integrated into that one system.
(25:26):
So when you go on that app, you're not having to come out of it to have your whole consumer journey.
And just when people accept your brand there, then the growth is exponential.
You can actually grow three times faster in China than in the US if you have the right investment.
(25:47):
So that was one of the attractive pieces is there was an opportunity to grow a brand in a country faster than probably in the US.
And that's what happened.
So from a standing start, the sales that were being achieved and the margin were really positive, and gaining that traction on all those social channels.
So if you go on, it's known as Little Red Book, Xiaohongshu, and you type in Emma Bridgewater, you can see all the traction with the unboxing and the Chinese consumer using it for their Chinese cuisine, not just afternoon tea.
(26:21):
And for me, that was when I sort of knew that we'd established ourselves, that they were actually using Emma Bridgewater bowls and products for their own food, happy days.
And you said, it was interesting,
you said, you know, you choose your country or your territory or in China, your tier.
What did you mean by that?
Yeah, so the Chinese continent is divided into tiers.
(26:44):
So tier one cities are, for example, Beijing and the bigger cities, and then it goes into further tiers.
So it is impossible for you to establish yourself as a brand across the whole of China at once.
You sort of have to decide where you want to pinpoint your key customers.
(27:05):
And they always advise, obviously you start with tier one because that's Beijing, Chengdu, Shenzhen.
And then as you expand into the rural areas or, I mean, you can't really call it rural because tier two or tier three cities are still major cities with massive infrastructure, universities...
They're so advanced and established.
(27:28):
So launching a brand in a lower tier city isn't actually a negative thing, but it gives you as a business of focus as to where you're focusing your marketing spend, where you're focusing your targeting for key opinion leaders, where you're focusing the distributors you may be targeting as well.
It has to be focused in that regard.
(27:50):
Key opinion leaders in China, I think we probably know those as influencers in Europe and in the US.
I think it's fascinating that there are cities that are bigger than countries in China.
So I think that's probably a helpful way to contextualise city tiering.
(28:13):
But even if you've made your decision, you're targeting a tier one or a tier two city, that still must be quite overwhelming.
So how important is partnership in a territory like China?
It is so important.
And the key word is partnership.
(28:33):
In the heyday of when I started out in retail, you'd find a distributor, you'd negotiate your terms and then you'd sign away everything, isn't it?
To them, and just let them get along.
Yeah, easy, right?
And build your business, you know?
Yeah, really straightforward.
Yeah.
But now you have to establish partnerships.
(28:55):
The distributors, or marketplace providers or third-party providers there, want to know that you as a brand or brand owner are just as invested as them in that country and building that business.
So that is from a brand marketing perspective, from your distribution, from your logistics, from how you communicate with your customer.
(29:20):
Do you understand or are you interested in the culture there as well?
That is such a big thing for them.
So all the conversations that you're having, apart from the normal, these are the terms, this is the commission, this is how much margin, this is how much going to cost.
Those are important.
But can you build long-term relationships that are not damaging to the brand?
(29:42):
Because we have heard of stories of brands that just have tried and failed in that market, in that territory.
But we have heard of partnerships that have worked really well.
So it's finding the right partner, someone who understands the nuances of your brand here and how to translate it to the customer and the consumer there is really key.
(30:04):
So typically what sort of partners would you be looking for?
Would you be looking for distributors?
Would you be looking for agencies, marketplaces?
What are the types of partners you need to engage with?
So the type of partnership that I managed to establish there was one based on, so we found a third party to manage the marketplaces and operations because we were at a point where we didn't want to establish an entity, so a business in China.
(30:32):
So we needed a third party to, so you can't do business in China unless you're established there as a business yourself, as a business entity, or you're working with a third party.
Those are the two options.
And the third party had expertise in online marketplaces, which was the easiest way to gain traction, and because the product is volumetric, heavy, et cetera,
(30:52):
looking to open bricks-and-mortar and ship volumetric heavy product was not the first instance or approach.
And working with them, we devised, or I devised with them a three-part strategy in terms of building social media marketplace, so working with a marketing agency, building the presence online, working with them on the integration, so integrating with the systems here in the UK and in China itself.
(31:23):
And then in that business plan, eventually the plan was to have some stock in China, because you do need that for the key periods and to reduce delivery windows, and hopefully establish some sort of distributor relationship that would allow one to get into stores.
So there was sort of a three-part plan in terms of launch this way, build on that presence, increase the sales, increase the brand presence, and then at some point move into a relationship where you have some sort of presence there as well.
(31:58):
I know some businesses have gone the direct distributor route, but I think this is a low-risk way of going in the market without having you to throw all your eggs in one basket, would be my approach, in my opinion.
And I'm really keen to know, did you end up in stores as well?
Yes, we did.
(32:19):
So we ended up in SKP, that's one of the top luxury department stores.
So very proud to have established ourselves there and was really happy to establish that relationship because when you were talking to influencers or other marketplaces, you could literally say, it's a bit like saying you're in Liberty in the UK, it's status and it's a good place to be in.
(32:41):
SKP, really great department store to be in.
So from Stoke-on-Trent to Shanghai, and that's fantastic to see that story coming back around then to the full omnichannel positioning that you're so passionate about.
Definitely.
I think that's what makes doing this job really exciting.
(33:05):
And I think, I mean, not even I think, I know I was doing omnichannel before it became a word, a thing that everyone was focusing on that just being everywhere the customer is, I don't believe there's such a thing as cannibalisation.
You always have to put yourself in the shoes of the customer, how they're operating, their consumer habits are changing, how they shop and it's constantly evolving.
(33:31):
And we're seeing lots of brands that are falling off, that have just disappeared off the face of the earth, or department stores that just don't exist because they just haven't evolved with how consumers are shopping now.
And I think that's key, even up-and-coming brands.
It's thinking about, now it's all about community, isn't it?
(33:52):
Building your community, telling your brand story, having those behind-the-scenes moments.
Gen Z are very interested in that, for some reason.
I'm interested in great product and value for money, but I think people are interested in brand stories and what's happening in the background as well.
And was there anything in terms of the Chinese customer, was there anything that surprised you or anything that you thought, well, I wasn't expecting this?
(34:20):
Yes, what surprised me is they are still very rooted in culture.
So they're very technical savvy, they've got their cell phones and everything, but if you are invited to a dinner, so food is a way of bringing people together, which is great if you love eating.
(34:43):
And there's one restaurant where we went to and it was a table of 10 and they prefer serving culture.
So you have different meals coming through and they had underneath the table, a drawer where you could put your phone.
So you had somewhere where you could place your phone underneath so that you could be completely immersed in the conversation.
(35:03):
Another thing that you could see where culture is very important to them is before Chinese New Year, everyone's really busy with buying all the gifts and presents and the major cities are... quiet off just before Chinese New Year.
So the shopping happens and then everyone travels home to see their families.
They're very invested in family and culture.
(35:25):
And I think for me, that was great to see because despite the fact that they are 10 times ahead in terms of technology, culture, values, their ethics, and you may disagree or agree with how they do things, but that is their culture and they're very rooted in that.
And that translates into the products they want to buy.
(35:46):
They want to know the details, the heritage behind a product.
They want to know how it was made and all these intricacies, which I don't know so much if the European or UK customer is concerned about that.
I mean, statistics say that people focus on sustainability, but are they really?
(36:07):
Are they really?
Question.
No. Well...
We could talk about that for days...
That would, that would, yeah...
I was, I'm curious just, because it's quite interesting, you know, and you bring up, you raise a good point when you're talking about the heritage and the kind of the behind-the-scenes and the community building.
(36:27):
Like, I think ecommerce for a while, we had the era of the catalogue, you know, bringing as many products as we possibly could lay our hands on, onto an ecommerce site, selling absolutely everything.
And I think we're moving a little bit more now into the era of the customer.
At least, you know, and there's this kind of an acknowledgement of the distinction, I feel at least, there's an acknowledgement of the distinction between the buying mission and the shopping experience.
(36:59):
And you, and I think we're starting to see a little bit of difficulty for some of those very large online merchants who focus mainly on the huge catalogues.
And so it's interesting to me that you see this, you know, this cultural piece and this bit that's interested in the brand.
And that's, I think that's great because that makes it feel like people who go to the trouble of creating a brand or creating a community, you know, and creating a retail shopping experience, have a chance of winning.
(37:33):
Whereas, you know, there was this kind of concept sometimes that you nearly need to be an Amazon.
You need to have all of the product in the world in order to win online.
I don't know, can you talk to that a little bit?
How do you, does that make sense?
Yeah, I think the three categories, when I sort of look at brands that are doing well or either have reinvented themselves.
(37:54):
So if you think about, we can start from top-tier luxury.
One of the most successful luxury retailers at the moment is Mytheresa.
They're based out of Munich and they have surpassed in profit, sales, what Farfetch, Net-A-Porter, et cetera have all tried to do.
And I was reading one of their notes this week where they talked about, we have focused on good product, ensuring that from our digital perspective, we're not, we're surprising and delighting, but we're not cluttering the customer's feed with endless collections that they don't need to see.
(38:30):
So it's very curated and they've been very focused on that.
So that's probably key to their success of staying true to what they do.
Yeah, I'm looking at... Sorry, go on, excuse me...
Yeah, and then if you look at, from a sportswear perspective, I mean, the return of the Samba and the Gazelle, I mean, Adidas is just, they've lost Yeezy, so Kanye West.
(38:51):
So they've said, let's go back to what we're doing now and focus on a key iconic product, and have it in as many colours as possible.
But they've segmented their market in terms of where you can find those products as well, which is very interesting.
But also there are smaller brands who have then either said, we're going to have smaller curated collections.
(39:14):
We're not going to be on Amazon and we're just going to be on the platforms, either DTC or marketplaces that we choose.
I feel as a brand, you need to decide which lane you want to go in.
Either you're very curated or if you have larger collections, you have to segment if you're going to be on a platform such as Amazon or other, or you just have very small collections, small drops, and you accept that your product is either only in your DTC platforms or smaller boutiques, et cetera.
(39:46):
I'm looking at this Mytheresa site, it must be one of the most beautifully merchandised ecommerce stores I've ever looked at.
We love a bit of ecommerce merchandising, Ger.
There are two stories I'm following at the moment, to that end.
I'm not sure if you're aware of them at all, Ntola.
There's The Row, the Olsen Twins.
(40:09):
I think that's another great story that plays into all of the points that you've just raised.
I think they do quiet luxury incredibly well.
Incredibly well, exactly that, yeah.
And small curated collections of great product.
And I think the other one is in a slightly different vertical.
(40:32):
It's in cosmetics.
It is Haus Labs, the, Lady Gaga's brand.
And I think there's a story there of, that started off as an affordable brand and it was sold on Amazon, and it did okay.
But then as the brand started to then focus in onto, I think, foundation as the product, they've then become famous for their foundation, pulled their distribution from Amazon and now they're one of the top brands being sold in Sephora and they've seen huge success by actually going really niche and being really good at something in a niche.
(41:18):
So I think that sits on one scale as you've described.
And then you've got, if you're going to do the other side, you've got to be everywhere.
And then if you look at some of the fashion, fast fashion brands, they execute very, very well in terms of understanding their customer and customer data before they then go into mass production.
(41:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, if you look at mass market, it's interesting.
When I started off at Inditex, I loved the fact that you could go to the flagship stores and you could find almost every new collection you could find there.
But obviously as they've grown and expanded, you can only find certain collections in certain cities, which for me is frustrating as a shopper because I just want to go in the store and find what I'm looking for.
(42:09):
But I do understand why they've had to do that with their distribution because they probably have the data to see who is who is shopping there.
What does that cohort of customers look like?
So it's an interesting one because I think a lot of, let's say, mid-price, high-street brands, as we talk about the UK and Ireland are in that dilemma this year where they want to grow, but they have to be profitable.
(42:35):
So focusing on profit is important.
And that has meant that a lot of brands have had to look at their distribution and say, Okay, yes, we accept that you have to be everywhere the customer is, but to what end in terms of profitability, time, efficiency, collections?
So I think there's been a lot of businesses have had to take a step back to say, maybe we need fewer collections.
(43:01):
Maybe we do need to tighten the range.
Or if we're not doing that, we need to tighten the distribution for now so that we can continue to operate as a business and be profitable.
And then maybe at some point, think about, is this a path or area we want to present in?
And they're quite big questions.
So bringing it full circle, you kind of need that underlying technological change to be delivered in your business, to give you that data insight so that you're not sitting there pulling the data together.
(43:32):
You're sitting there and analysing the data, finding out what that means so that you can make better decisions.
So that brings us right the way around to making sure that you've got that right tech stack in your business.
And that is very neat, Gordon, because we have also run out of time.
So it's great to bring the whole thing full circle.
(43:55):
Isn't that beautiful?
It was a beautiful thing.
I love that.
Yes, it comes down to your tech stack and making sure you have the right data so you're not working in silos to make the right decisions for your business.
Thanks so much, Ntola.
It's been a fascinating conversation.
Really, really appreciate you joining us here today.
(44:15):
Awesome.
Thank you very much.
That was interesting.
I actually, I really, really enjoyed the conversation.
I think it's, you know, understated for me is probably a description.
You know, there's so much experience delivered in a very, very understated way.
But the conversation just towards the end around the curated product range and curated collections, I think is, I think it's very interesting.
(44:42):
I really feel about that, you know, that era of the catalogue and now we're moving into... it feels that we're moving more towards the era of the customer.
And obviously the customer is always incredibly important.
But from a technical point of view, we were nearly overexcited with our ability to pull data and product into an ecommerce store.
(45:04):
Well, here's the thing.
Give us the thing.
The thing.
I'm a bit worried.
And the reason why I'm a bit worried is that I'm talking to, when I talk to different people, you know, you go to events and you're like chatting around and there are loads of people launching marketplaces within their own business.
(45:24):
And they're saying, Okay, well, we're going to add a marketplace on and we're going to increase our SKU count.
One of the things that has occurred to me is if everybody has a marketplace and everybody has everyone on the marketplace, then that just leads you to this homogenous pile of the sameness.
And I just don't think everyone could be Amazon.
(45:45):
There's so much more value in curation.
And you look at the brands that are really, really doing well and you think, wow, actually curation plays a huge part in that.
And I guess it's horses for courses.
Well, part of the promise of, let's say, the retail media side of things and we'll say creating your kind of, you know, marketplace within the site.
(46:13):
I suppose part of the promise of that was based on knowing the customer.
So, like, when you were talking about, you know, we talked with Paul Stafford in Superdrug a while back and he was explaining how the businesses that they're working with are trying to understand what the customers are looking to buy, what the audiences are like and then service that customer, pay to be there to service the customer.
(46:38):
I suppose because the way, you know, advertising works, you know, sometimes people overdo it and just kind of splash the cash and try and cover as much as they can.
And maybe that's when the curation ends.
But part, I guess, of the marketplace promise was to, by understanding the customer, to service them better but allowing brands to pay to be in front of the customer.
(47:07):
I think we should watch this and see how that one plays out.
But just in that conversation there, there's so many themes to jump on.
There was everything covered from, you know, technical change, organisational change, like change management, to then deliver that vision of being able to properly understand the customer and not spend days getting the data together so that you can make a quick judgment.
(47:39):
Yeah, there's some interesting things.
I personally am a big fan of the plan on the back of a fag packet.
Briefly mentioned, but I think if you can't, if you can't put your plan on the back of a fag packet, you know, like you're going to run into difficulty early on.
So I kind of like that one.
And the whole kind of change management when you're trying to identify... that piece about accepting the accountability or taking the responsibility on yourself and then allowing people to relax into their role to deliver the thing without worrying about whether or not they're going to be blamed for it or who they need to shift the blame to.
(48:18):
Which is great when it's going well.
Yeah.
When it's not going so well, that's quite difficult for your shoulders.
But you see it, you see it in change.
You know, when a change is coming in, sometimes people are so, they're so fixated on all of the risk and the downside that they're kind of, they're almost self-sabotaging.
(48:39):
You know, it's like, get out of your, you know, got to get out of your own way a small bit and plow on with that change.
I thought that was an interesting point, though, I see, I've seen that.
And I think that piece about the leader taking the accountability and saying, look, here's my, here's my fag packet plan.
Here's what we're trying to do.
(49:00):
It's going to take three years.
Here's the capital that we'll need for it.
Now let's commit to it.
And if it goes wrong, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to be accountable and figure it out.
And the figure it out bit's really important, making those course corrections, because it seldom goes exactly to plan.
Never goes...
Whether it's that plan is on a fag packet or a 400-page deck.
(49:20):
Exactly.
It never goes perfectly.
And there's always some spanner in the works somewhere.
And I think having, if you're in that position and you've got that on your shoulders, having the ability to, to just work through that and understand the why, as opposed to go straight to the, who am I going to blame?
You have to be able to rely on your retailer reflexes.
(49:42):
And, you know, you do.
And it's up, it's back to that...
Do you know the Muhammad Ali quote?
No, no game plan ever survives the first punch in the face.
It's totally true though, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's when the reflexes come and you've got to be able to rely on them.
Yeah.
And then, then you can, then you can kind of have a bit of fun with it.
I think then, like, the other thing that I really enjoyed was just the, like, the idea of just forging into new markets and just, you can imagine...
(50:16):
You do like a bit of forging.
I do like a bit of forging.
Bit of forging, and foraging.
Yeah, you've got Viking blood in there.
I think I have a little bit.
I've got to forge.
I'll get a new hat with some horns.
But this idea of actually going, yeah, you know what?
I'm going to take on a new market.
(50:36):
And then walking into the office going, right, how am I going to take on a new market?
Yeah, yeah.
Especially if the playbook's not written for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, we didn't cover it in great detail, but just, I'm a big fan of the, let's say, make it wash its own face.
(50:59):
You know, we're not going to break even, but we've got to get close to that.
And not investing hugely in advance.
And so Ntola was talking about how they approached the Chinese market.
And, you know, they gave themselves, they gave themselves, let's say, an opportunity for growth without, you know, investing so heavily that it was panic stations all the way through.
(51:21):
Yeah, I think it all depends on your, I suppose, it's having a balanced attitude towards risk.
And then the amount of capital that you've got to take that risk with.
So you could take a lower risk, more steady approach to growth, or the very, very high risk, potentially very, very high reward, but also with that high risk comes the, well, the risk of losing huge sums.
(51:55):
And I like that there are tools which, say, you can go either route, but you have to be very careful about, as she explained, the partners that you're selecting and the route that you take.
Yeah, and I think you just need to be clear yourself about, you know, what the risk is.
Are you, do you have the appetite for it?
And will you, do you have the commitment?
(52:15):
Yeah.
You know, and as you say, you know, it's great when you're in the room and you're, you know, I got, you got the bag pack and you're ready to go and you're, you're forecasting.
And then the next day you walk into the office and you're like, right, okay...
But there's the other part of it, which is after Q1 and you're, you're sending in the sales figures and all the rest of it.
Yeah.
(52:35):
You know...
That, that must be tough.
So you've, you've not hit your sales numbers, but you know that if you're on the right path, if you know your customer and you've taken your time to learn about your customer, then, and you are doing the right things.
You've got a great brand.
You've got a great story.
You're getting in front of the right people.
Then at some point, you will reach that tipping point where it begins to gain traction.
(53:01):
And if you've done all of your change management properly, supply chain will be right behind you.
It must be, must be nice to, to be able to go back in then several years later and say, right, well, you know, this was what we planned to do.
Here was my three-part strategy.
And now we're inside in these stores.
You know, it must be very, very pleasing.
(53:22):
Yeah, I'd say the sense of satisfaction there was enormous.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, well, we'll leave it there.
Thanks so much for listening.
It's been another great episode.
Thanks, Gordon.
Thanks, Ger.
Catch you next time.
Take care.
Ger, could you just say, and thanks to Daniel who stepped in as sound engineer?
(53:44):
It's been another great episode.
Thanks to our lovely new stepped in sound engineer, Daniel.
The precious Elaine abandoned us.
Yes, she left us.
Abandoned us.
I know.
But look, Daniel, thank you.
She told us she would never leave.
But Daniel, you filled the boots.
And they were big shoes to fill.
(54:05):
Thanks so much.
You've been listening to Functional & Fabulous with Ger Keohane and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast or about StudioForty9 and Omnichannel stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie. Our sound engineer was Elaine Smith and the show was produced by Roger Overall.
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