Bonus Episode: Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon (with Adam Mallinger)

Adam Mallinger (Writer: SUPERMAN & LOIS, MICHAEL F-ING BAY) joins us for a special Friday the 13th Bonus episode looking at slasher film deconstructor/reconstructor BEHIND THE MASK: THE RISE OF LESLIE VERNON (2006) starring Nathan Baesal & Angela Goethals, directed by Scott Glosserman, who also co-wrote with David J. Stieve.

Adam Mallinger Bluesky

The Bitter Script Reader

The Bitter Script Reader: Tuesday Talkback: "Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon," My greatest discovery

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Hello and welcome to Get Me Another, podcast where we explore those movies that followedin the wake of blockbuster hits and attempted to replicate their success.
My name is Chris Ayanakone and with me are my co-hosts Rob Lemorgous
we have a code of ethics, Chris.
The podcast is a sacred place.
It's symbolic of the womb.
It's the safest place to be because in the womb we're innocent.

(00:33):
It's true.
It is true.
are.
And, and Justin beam paradise lost.
it.
got it, man.
My favorite bits.
today is a special bonus episode of get me another.
We recently wrapped our get me another Friday the 13th series and.
We had a terrific time with that.
If you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend checking it out.

(00:56):
That being said, there was a movie that we didn't quite have space for, but we stillwanted to cover.
And that's where today's bonus episode comes in.
That movie is Behind the Mask, The Rise of Leslie Vernon.
And we are very excited to have joining us today to talk about it a very special guest,writer and Behind the Mask aficionado, Adam Malig.

(01:18):
Evening guys, good to see you.
Hey, good to see you.
Good to see you.
It's terrific to have you here.
Good to be here.
Adam is known by his social media handle, The Bitter Script Reader, where he's got asignificant following.
He's got a terrific blog that you can find at thebitterscriptreader.blogspot.com.
And he's the author of the book, Michael F.N.
Bay, the unheralded genius of Michael Bay's films, which takes a deep dive into the worksof Michael Bay from an intellectual standpoint.

(01:46):
Adam I'm gonna have to check out this book because it sounds amazing.
Yeah as a friend of mine pointed out It's about Michael Bay films But it's also about filmcriticism and you'll understand that as you get into the deep dives as I explain deep
things to you such as how Armageddon is about man's relationship with God and how MichaelBay is actually an exceptionally deep and practicing feminist as proven by his treatment

(02:11):
of Megan Fox in Transformers, that's
Amazing.
I'm to be checking that out for sure.
And he was also a writer on the DC Comics based superhero series, Superman and Lois.
And I want to mention, this is, this is exciting.
We have two Superman TV series writers on the show today.
Cause Rob, you wrote on Smallville in its, in its final season.

(02:33):
Well, I was the writer's assistant.
how did I get that wrong?
Well, I did write as writers assistants often do.
I did write.
daily planet headlines and articles that appeared on screen.
So you could technically say in the most literal sense that I did write for things thatappeared on screen, but not how most people would think of it.

(02:58):
That counts for me as far as I'm concerned.
There we go.
Print the legend.
So let's turn our attention to today's movie.
Now from 2006, this is behind the mask.
The Rise of Leslie Vernon.

(03:30):
you
You have no idea how much cardio I have to do.

(03:54):
It's ridiculous.
There's that whole thing, making it look like you're walking.
Everybody else is running their asses off.
Everybody thinks we just wake up one morning and start obsessing about a girl and startstalking her, killing everybody that gets in the way.
That does seem to happen a lot with you guys.
That boy, he's going to be the best yet.

(04:17):
There are 11...
Exits from the first floor.
Another eight or nine that might be manageable from second floor.
All the obvious weapons.
I've sabotaged.
Why are you doing this?
We're not gonna have this conversation at Why?
What you meant Dead in the van.

(04:38):
You have no idea who you're dealing with.
So how will this play out?
How will this work?
You won't like what you see.
I promise you that.
I'm so happy.
Make sure you're getting this.
Go!
start now!

(05:01):
got film in those cameras, boys.
No!
Shit!
He cannot stand here and let this happen.
Don't you get it?
We're in this now.
We're part of his equation.
We need an audience!
We're right where he wants us.
Follow this.
You have to tell me.
What happens to me?

(05:26):
Behind the Mask was directed and produced by Scott Glosserman, who co-wrote the scriptwith David J.
Stevie.
It was shot in the area of Portland, Oregon and had its premiere at the 2006 South bySouthwest Festival, followed by a limited theatrical release in 2007.
It subsequently came out on home video, where it has achieved a certain measure of cultclassic status.

(05:49):
And I should say at the beginning, this was my first time seeing Behind the Mask.
I had heard of it, it was on my radar.
I just hadn't gotten to it till now.
And I'm sorry I didn't see this movie earlier because it is terrific.
And when it landed, the horror world was just buzzing about it because it's all the thingsthat we're going to get into here.

(06:10):
For so many reasons, everybody saw this as a huge breath of fresh air and such a fun takeon something that we hold sacred and a truly, truly unique.
film for the genre.
And this was kind of like Dorothy's trick or treat when it hit video everywhere that Iwas, because it was the one where they maybe had one copy at your local video store and

(06:35):
you'd be lucky if you could find it actually in when you went there.
this is, I mean, it really is a treasure in the genre.
See, I'm interested to hear how you found it, you know, within the genre.
know, I'm a horror fan, but I'm not so much in the online community or in the horrorcommunities.
I stumbled across this after seeing the trailer in front of something else I had rentedand I was like, I've got to see that.

(06:58):
Like this was something that I kind of almost had to have fall in my lap.
I didn't know anything about it.
Nobody had told me anything.
I had just seen, you know, what was running before whatever else I had gotten.
And I'm like, that looks like that's really interesting.
I'm going have to check this out.
then when I, nobody I knew had heard anything of it before.
and so I got to introduce a lot of people to it because it's just, it was this very,underground thing.

(07:21):
as far as I was aware of.
mean, Anchor Bay did the distribution, which this was when Anchor Bay was really peaking.
And at the time they were kind of cresting with a lot.
They were bringing a lot of Italian stuff to the U.S.
for the first time.
And so they were very visible, not just in rent.
mean, even more so in like Best Buy, for example, because Anchor Bay was everywhere.

(07:43):
They had the widest distribution of any of these labels outside of studios here.
And at this point, I was
I was just starting to write for like Fangoria and Famous Monsters and things like thataround the same time.
And so I was also involved with a lot.
I mean, I was really sort of swimming in the horror fan base at conventions, at filmfestivals and things like that.

(08:08):
so it's kind of always the case in the genre that people are looking for something new andsomething fresh.
And yes, there's endless appetite for the comfort food stuff.
But at the same time, when something
Genuinely unique pops up word test tends to spread spread pretty quickly.
So that's what happened.
And then it just became like, have you seen it yet?

(08:28):
Who has a copy?
And then it's perfect for party watch alongs, like getting together with your friends andhaving some beers and kicking back.
And it's, it's a total blast.
There's so many Easter eggs sprinkled throughout the whole thing.
So many points of reference for people who love the genre.
And so I think all of that added up to.

(08:48):
It got elevated pretty quickly within the the real big fan circles of horror.
so it just started changing hands, just like a good book used to, you know, when we werekids.
You know, it's funny, it's it's there's a lot of things that claim to be love letters togenres.
this really I mean, this is is is about as much of a love letter to the slasher genre asis possible.

(09:14):
Like it it feels like the perfect.
to our Friday the 13th series, because it is so steeped in the tropes of the slashergenre.
And you mentioned the Easter eggs and the nods.
We'll try to point those out as we go through, because they are, it is replete.
they are, they are our legion.
The film stars Nathan Basil, Angela Gothels and Scott Wilson with appearances by noneother than Robert Englund and Zelda Rubenstein.

(09:42):
So it has both the actors who portrayed Freddy Krueger
and Tangina from the Poultry Guy series, which is a great callback to 80s horror.
The film is kind of a faux documentary that revolves around a young filmmaker, TaylorGentry, who is making a film about Leslie Vernon, a budding slasher who aspires to join
the ranks of Michael Myers, Jason Voorhees, and Freddy Krueger.

(10:06):
The film opens with a scene that we'll revisit later.
as a young waitress at a diner goes outside to dump the trash at the end of the night andshe has the feeling she is being watched.
And she's looking for a figure she might have seen, the door propped open by a brick slamsshut, startling her and sends her running for the front door.
And this feels like a scene we've seen in countless slasher movies.

(10:29):
The killer is out there, lurking, seemingly everywhere and not anywhere at all.
And we will come back to the scene...
later on the film because not everything is as it seems.
And then we cut to Taylor Gentry giving her introduction to a documentary about aspiringslasher Leslie Verna.
And this is where we get into this world that it's just so fascinating that the idea ofwhat if the events of these movies, Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street

(10:59):
were real.
And it's just a fascinating world.
least I found it such a fascinating world.
He speaks very matter of fact as though they're all on the same point of reference intime, because it doesn't really place itself necessarily time-wise.
No.
But they're definitely referred to as contemporaries.
And as we'll get into this, there's a lot of talk, especially within his family, about whodoes this well and who doesn't, the amateurs and things like that.

(11:27):
But even he, from the beginning, acknowledges that those
that those stories are all real, that they're actually out there and that these thingshave happened.
And so this exists in a world where those things are also practical, where they'reaccepted too.
Because then from that point forward, you can sort of lock in your memories on Friday andNightmare on Elm Street and whatever else he's making reference to is, okay, if that's

(11:50):
possible, anything is possible.
And then that makes everything he educates us on make total sense.
And it's interesting because you have the clear, like, Freddy Krueger,
has a clear supernatural nature.
mean, you know, he invades your dreams, but they get around that by saying, it's like,yeah, this killer, Frederick Krueger left a psychological scar so deep that some believe

(12:14):
that dreaming about him.
can kill you.
I just thought that was incredibly very good.
Just incredibly clever.
All of this movie is so clever.
Yeah, I would.
I've always thought of it as a nice companion to scream because scream is, you know, kidswho've grown up on horror movies as movies, you know, poking fun of everyone doing that
and getting killed in real life from their point of view.

(12:36):
And this goes the extra step of saying, well, this is real.
So in a way it makes it.
almost more believable when these quote unquote real kids fall into the cliches becausethey're part of that universe.
And I think the style of the film when we step into the film version, because there's tworealities we see here, we're told the story both through the mockumentary style and then

(12:58):
there are the moments where it's suddenly shot and presented as a normal film would be.
And I think that's a really clever way of one, getting around at certain points.
why would anybody still be carrying the camera through this, other than the fact theaudience needs to see it.
And two, it kind of makes, when the characters become part of the horror movie, you buytheir making the mistakes of a horror movie a little bit more just because of how it's

(13:23):
presented too.
Like I think it's very smart.
It takes what Scream did and it's like, okay, we don't want to do Scream, but we're kindof doing the same sort of send-up.
So what's a different way to present the same idea and make it fresh?
And I think they came up with a really clever solution to that.
Well, it's interesting because Scream was out about a decade before this and Scream ushersin that era of the self-aware slasher.

(13:45):
What I kind of refer to in borrowing a term from comic books, to me, it's the silver ageof slasher films.
You know, if the golden age is the 70s through the early 90s, Scream kicks off the silverage.
And this kind of comes late in that.
And, you you've had a lot of movies where, you know, Scream and the ones that followed it,
This feels like it is a culmination of that.

(14:10):
You can't get more self-aware in terms of slasher movie tropes than Leslie Vernon, who iscrafting these tropes as if he's essentially directing a horror movie.
He's writing and directing a horror movie, a slasher movie, except he's doing it in thisreal world.

(14:32):
Yeah.
And I think layered on top of everything that you, both have been talking about is thatthis film is what 2006.
Yes.
I think I was X.
Yeah.
So six years after the premiere of survivor on American television and the reality boomthereafter, and you had real world as well, you know, before, but so we have, you know, an

(14:56):
Americans in particular had gotten used to seeing people do really dumb ass shit ontelevision.
that you would be saying, don't do this.
I think it, it, get another level of believability because I mean, you know, people go toYellowstone and video a bear and get mauled and you're like,
You know, mean, you know, and which is terrible, but like there is a certain amount ofthis that is totally believable.

(15:20):
It's terrible because they're stupid.
It's not like the bears coming into their neighborhood and mulling them.
That's a whole other, that's a whole other level.
And the movie that I always kind of link in my mind with this, it's, different.
It's not a horror film, but from five years earlier is series seven.
the contenders that was made by some, what Daniel Menehan who'd

(15:42):
worked in reality and it was a satire essentially.
I mean, it's, it's, you know, you could say battle Royale and, you know, hunger gamesbefore those hit, I think, not before the book was written, but, for, for battle rail.
But in any case, it's just, I think that's adding the extra layer in here too, which islike, but it's not, it's not a satire.

(16:06):
Well, it's very dry.
It's very dry.
The other movie that I can't help thinking of is from the late 90s is Blair Witch Project.
Because there is some definite Blair Witch vibes.
mean, you have this female filmmaker accompanied by two male assistants, the directaddress to the camera.
Like it makes me think of some of the early parts of Blair Witch.

(16:29):
The opening is very Blair, not the opening that's the girl being, you know, stalked, butwhen we get the backstory of the town and the exposition, that all feels very much to me
like Heather, you know, melodramatically setting the stage for Birkensville in the BlairWitch project.
It absolutely to be a direct reference almost even down to like the way she's, you know,intoning some of the narration and the way that is shot.

(16:54):
It all reminded me of that, which I thought was a nice little nod to that.
if it was intentional.
Welcome to Glen Echo, a picture postcard community that is itself representative of athousand small towns found all across America.
But is there a brand of unspeakable evil set to shatter the serenity of this rural haven?

(17:17):
The same brand of evil that has plagued a host of similar communities for the better partof 30 years.
The stories are well known.
At Crystal Lake,
A madman named Jason Voorhees has killed dozens over the past three decades, leaving adevastated, deserted community fearful of his next appearance.

(17:37):
Here on Elm Street, in the suburban community of Springwood, a murderer's repeated attackshave left a psychological scar so deep, some insist that simply dreaming about him can
kill you in your sleep.
Excuse me, sir, hi.
I was wondering if I could ask you some questions about your former neighbor, Frederick.

(17:57):
And in Haddonfield, a prodigal son named Michael Myers has struck in a similar fashion onor near Halloween on at least four different occasions.
For these residents, Halloween will never be the same.
I can't imagine that it wasn't because it's, it's, had the same, I had the same thought.
Like there's even a bit where she's walking down the street and you have, she walks by thered rabbit lounge and she's doing the, the, the nod to the matchbook that the nurse has in

(18:25):
the original Halloween, the red rabbit lounge.
It's a deep cut.
Thank you.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, it's, and there's so many great moments like that.
When, when she's in Springwood, I, I don't know if you guys, it was Kane Hodder.
as the guy who's living in Freddy's house.
I was trying to figure out if that was the actual house from Friday the 13th, which is inLos Angeles.

(18:46):
It's in West Hollywood.
But I didn't bother, you know, looking up and seeing if they had actually gottenpermission to have Kane walk into the real house.
if it's not, it's super close.
Like it's both the Halloween house and the Nightmare on the Street house.
Like it's it's super close if it's not the actual thing.

(19:07):
So here is where we get the titular Leslie Vernon.
And I love that moment where it's like, at first they don't see him and it's the spin-on,is he there?
No, wait, he's over there.
It's the type of moment you see in slasher films.
But then the most surprising thing is that Leslie Vernon turns out to be a seeminglynormal guy.

(19:28):
Mr.
Vernon.
Hey!
I'm just messing with you.
I'm Leslie Vernon, hi.
Mr.
Vernon, can we throw a mic on you?
Yeah, sure.
This is the living room.
There's Church and Zoe.

(19:52):
And my little sweeties, actually he's not.
Don't put your finger anywhere near him.
But you can pet him.
He's a sweetie.
I'm so terrible with these guys.
I go away for days, forget to feed them.
Little bastards just won't die.
Turtles are good that way.
Very feng shui.

(20:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Plants and turtles.
Plants and turtles.
And he's terrific.
Man, the actors in this are just fantastic.
Nathan Basil, he's fantastic.
And the way he plays it, I he's so, he's almost a little dorky in some parts as he'sexplaining it.
And he's geeking out on it, but he's also taking it very seriously.

(20:36):
And it reminds me so much of the performance of the mayor on Buffy about how he wants todo these terrible things.
But he has just this such a
Yo, aw shucks, you know, nice way of talking to people.
And, you know, when he's talking, showing them the Apple press and they're like, what'sthat for?
He's like, for pressing Apple, silly.
And he's got an apple in his mouth as he's saying it, which is fantastic.

(21:00):
Like there's a tiny little bit of Jim Carrey in there too.
And then some of his line readings and his mannerisms.
And it's very disarming to them because he is like, he seems like this nice guy who'smatter of fact, we take him through it and I'm jumping.
ahead a little bit here, but I want to praise Nathan.
There's the, there's a scene where that turns where he's waiting for them after they havebeen talking to the girl.

(21:23):
And he pulls off that turn into menacing so, so well, it's, it's really chilling.
And he's really scary in that moment where he, catches them and he's waiting outside thevan and he's like, do we want to pretend that we just had the conversation we just had?
And she starts to say Leslie and he's like, and that was your part and just like throwsher up against it.
Like Nate,

(21:45):
The funniest bit of that scene is that one of the cameramen is in the van the whole timefilming it through the window.
And you just get little peaks of him and the camera.
Even then, which is a serious scene, there's an undercurrent, a very dry satire with thecameraman still filming inside the van.
just talking about Leslie for a second as a character, I appreciated and I...

(22:13):
I think with what they wanted to do with the film, had to, they did not cast a hulkingripped dude.
Right.
know, it's not a latter era slasher villain.
is probably closer to early, you know, like the original Michael Myers isn't a superjacked up guy.

(22:33):
mean, hell you look like terror train and the villain isn't particularly jacked either.
Even Friday the 13th.
Like we talked about the Fridays, the early, the first couple, the first three really, butespecially two and three Jason's very fallible.
He's a normal size guy.
gets knocked around a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and also I think this plays into the understanding of serial killers as a whole,because you look at Ted Bundy.

(22:59):
I remember when that Netflix series landed, I don't know if it was earlier this year orlast year, there's a bunch of people out there talking about how hot he is and what and.
There's an appeal that has to come with these guys.
have to be disarming to outside of the sort of like night stalker guys who just break inand while you're sleeping, those who can trick you during the day, everyone talks about

(23:22):
how charming they are, how funny and Leslie is so funny from the beginning and he's socharming.
I mean, to say that, that he,
It's not it's perfectly cast in size like you're talking about, Rob, and also in just hisgeneral approach.
Like, well, of course, people could this guy could fit in anywhere.

(23:42):
He wouldn't stand out anywhere and he would charm the pants off everyone in the room.
Yeah, no, there's a twinkle in his eye through the whole thing.
And it's it's it's such a great balance because he's talking about I mean, he's talkingabout committing these murders and, you know, the film crew is going along with along with
them.
And for a while, it's just like, wait, what?

(24:03):
What?
I mean, you get the impression that they don't believe that he's actually talking,planning to do what he's telling them he's planning to do.
That's the other thing that works with him being disarming is he's disarming enough thatwe believe he's almost all talk, or rather, we believe that the people making the movie
don't think really they're in the presence of a serial killer.

(24:24):
Like he's talking about it.
He's talking about things we've seen in horror films, but.
because he is that disarming, it makes it matter at the end when they do have that turn oflike, shit, we can't stand here and let this happen.
I think if he was a more menacing or a more sinister guy throughout, we would callbullshit like, now, now you guys are shocked.
You've been making a movie with him for a week and you're shocked that these booby trapshe has explicitly shown you and explained to you are actually gonna be used to kill

(24:51):
people.
So it's his, the whole movie hinges on his performance.
And if it wasn't note perfect, this thing would fall apart in an instant.
And that's why I was kind of saddened when I looked up Nathan on IMDB and saw that he hadnot done many parts, many roles since this, because I just thought this should have been a

(25:11):
star-making role.
100%.
Absolutely.
If this movie was more seen, this should have been a breakout performance, because it'sone of the great ones in horror.
to manage it both
in both realities the film is playing in, you there's a different way of acting for like amockumentary style than for the straight up horror style.
And he nails both and he sells us on the entire premise of the film with his performance.

(25:37):
I don't know how many people would have been capable of doing that in the exact way hedoes.
Prior to this movie, he's a production guy.
Nathan is.
So he's always been working behind the scenes on things.
He's a, he's a producer.
He does coordination on production and things like that.
So I think it's, I would imagine he probably returned to that realm if he wasn't actingmuch.

(26:02):
I should look him up on the, IMDb and see.
He has a lot of post-production coordinator credits over the last, you know, almost 15years in reality.
Like the guy has worked steadily.
It's just, he hasn't acted and.
I think that's probably our loss that he hasn't acted.
Yeah, I agree.
Really good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The way he layers in, like you talk about that switch, which we'll get to that part in alittle bit, but like even before then there's, there's just, it's, it's the layer cake of

(26:31):
charming with just a hint of, of there's a real danger underneath, but it's, it's buriedenough that, that, it's there.
It's, God, it's such a, it's such a really.
fascinating performance.
And you're right.
I think this should have been like, it's one of those things where you say, well, if I wascasting, then this would be a guy I'd call immediately.

(26:54):
My God, he's amazing.
I love the moment where he's got this enormous library of books in his house, including alot of stuff on stage magic and illusions.
This is the fun stuff.
Copperfield, Houdini, sleight of hand, escape tactics.
You want to see a magic trick?
Sure.
You got a deck of cards on you?
No.

(27:30):
And there kind of lies the conceit of the film is that slasher movie villains, withseemingly supernatural abilities, are really just committed to Batman levels of planning
and forethought.
the insane levels of planning that some Batman fans ascribe to that character.
yeah, know, Batman, could beat anybody.

(27:51):
He could beat Q if he had enough time to prepare.
You know, it's like, it's kind of that.
It's like everything is so prepared in advance and I love it.
I love the way they use that to explain how slasher movie villains do what they do.
It's tremendous.
Yeah.
One of my favorite scenes is where he's taken him out to the house and he's like, so firstof all, all the obvious escape routes.

(28:14):
I've sabotaged them.
And then, know, like the all the branches I've pre-cut, you know, I've hammered thisthrough.
Well, why wouldn't they break out the windows?
don't they ever break out the windows?
You think so?
But no.
But then only on the second floor, seems like.
And also the thing that I thought was really clever about that to get to the twist thereis he is also kind of incepting them so that when they're in the situation.

(28:41):
they're going to run through his maze like the rats he wants them to be.
There are moments where he tells them stuff that they think is useful Intel later.
And if you think about it, he's just trying to herd them somewhere or trick them intodoing something.
It's the kind of thing you pick up on a second viewing later when you're like, wait, hesaid this and this is how you'd be safe.
But that, that turns out to not be the case.

(29:02):
I know it's, it is fantastic.
Like it's, it's, just, again, the layers that this movie works on is terrific.
So
You know, he lays out several steps for an aspiring slasher.
And this is really interesting.
Like the first step, step one, is he needs an anchor for his legend.
So he takes the crew to the farmhouse where he claims to have grown up.

(29:24):
And this is, this is where Leslie Vernon was supposedly possessed by an evil force.
And then he killed his parents and was taken by the townsfolk and thrown over the fallsand, you know, must've survived.
Again, there's, there's shades of Jason Voorhees in that.
You know, a plunge into water is the thing that baptizes him as a killer.

(29:44):
way Jason drowns in Crystal Lake.
Again, the levels of detail here and this whole thing where, you know, the farmhouse andthe grounds of it, know, I mean, aside from the house, there's a barn.
There's a barn which echoes the murder barn from Friday the 13th, part three, which wetalked about so much in our previous series, reused and twisted nightmare.

(30:08):
There's also an orchard that where he plans a climactic chase.
It's a great location for all of this feeling like it draws from slasher movies, inparticular, Friday the 13th in that the rural setting.
Yeah, I you know, it's funny.
I'd watched all these movies back in the day.
I've rewatched them several times, but seeing it all condensed in a row, I did not realizehow critical the barn is.

(30:31):
Barn location for a good chunk of slasherdom.
And this, what I love is that this movie reuses lots of different locations and from morethan just Friday, you know, you've got school library stuff going on.
guess it's the town library, but the auspices of using it for school, you know, the diner,the, barn, the, you know, abandoned decrepit farmhouse kind of a look as well.

(30:59):
And it just, you know, it's a great mix of everything here amongst.
It's getting surface level details like that at the same time that it's pulling storydetails and character details.
And it's just such a, a great level of everything.
Yeah.
I love that sequence in the library.
The library is, is, is a fantastic one.

(31:19):
We'll get to that in a little bit.
So step two of Leslie's plan is to find a target group, which is basically the cast, thegroup of young people, usually horny, somewhat irresponsible, who he will be hunting down.
until his ultimate showdown with the Survivor Girl.
I think it's Taylor who says, you mean victims, right?

(31:43):
Eh, potato, batata.
Like he's just, again, so charming.
And the bit where it's like, what's a Survivor Girl?
Which is what we call a final girl.
We've been referring to the final girl series.
You know, that last person standing.
I just love what he says.
I'm sorry, it's an industry term.
Yes.
One of my favorite lines in the movie, in fact.

(32:05):
it's so good.
It's so good.
Leslie's survivor girl is a 17 year old named Kelly Curtis.
Obviously, Curtis being a nod to Jamie Lee Curtis.
She is the girl from the diner in the opening scene.
She spends a lot of time at the library.
She's seen walking home alone with her books, very like very much like Jamie Lee Curtis inthe original Halloween, where she's kind of the we think she's the shy bookish girl.

(32:32):
And apparently she is a virgin, which is an important point to the mythology that Leslieconsiders himself a part of.
I also want to mention in that scene where he's kind of scoping around, like there's thethree girls jumping rope in the background, like the three girls in white jumping rope
from Nightmare on Elm Street.
yes.
And him talking about survivor girl and needing to be a virgin and all of this, this isthe first of, you know,

(33:00):
Well, maybe not the first, he might have brought up one before, one of many where he is oncamera bringing up the tropes and talking about them.
You'd mentioned earlier, he's kind of directing his own horror movie.
I mean, he's in writing it.
Yeah.
You know, because we're going to get a well anyway, a really fun scene later with hisfriends when they realize that another horror movie trope piece has entered the story and

(33:25):
they're over the moon about it.
and it seems to be all for promotional purposes.
It's not like a deep seated anything within him.
I guess that speech is coming down the road to the, the why he's doing what he doesspeeches is down the road, but, it's, just, knows what the audience wants and what will,
what will get him press.

(33:46):
Well, and it's like that she has to be a virgin.
Isn't for some weird sexual thing.
It's just, it's, that's the, that's the trope and you've gotta, you know, you gotta playthe trope and that's.
You know, that's what he's doing.
What I love about that is he's as he goes through the tropes and explains the rules.
It doesn't feel at all like the moment we get in virtually every scream movie where thekids sit around and explain the horror movie tropes to each other.

(34:12):
It's this it's certainly the same function, but it doesn't feel like, okay, here are therules.
And it's not, you know, it's just as much maybe, you know, nudge nudge on the nose, wink,wink.
But it doesn't feel like, okay, they're doing the scream thing here.
Like they've they find a way to make it.
feel different and organic to their documentary style.
And I think that's another reason why this works.

(34:34):
And it doesn't feel like, just another self-aware slasher, like all of those, as youpointed out, that came in the wake of They're very clever about even doing the most rote
beats of this sort of self-aware thing.
mean, it almost feels, whereas other people were solely deconstructing in Scream's wake,
This feels like somehow it's both deconstructing and constructing.

(34:57):
It's it is making its own thing.
It's celebrating while it's doing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like it's taking it apart and showing you the pieces, but then putting it backtogether so it functions, you know, the way it should.
It's real interesting.
It's like when Penn and Teller do a big long magic trick and they're showing you how it'sdone.
And then the very end of it, they actually fool you.

(35:19):
This this movie feel has a similar like feel for me.
100%.
No, that is absolutely the Pennanteller.
That's great.
That's totally it.
So the next thing we move to the third step, which is the flyby, the quick early encounterwith the survivor girl.
And this is what takes us back to the opening scene where Kelly was taking out the trashand she got spooked.

(35:42):
And we learn that the brick that held the door in that opening sequence, which closes,
was rigged with fishing line to be pulled away at just the right moment.
And Taylor was the one who actually pulled the line.
So it's interesting that Taylor moves at this point, moves from being an observer to beingan active participant.

(36:03):
And that's such an interesting kind of change considering where the movie will eventuallyget to, that she is part of the plan.
Yeah, and I think you all talked about the charm.
And I think this goes to that, where Leslie has, you
Taylor is participating, there's still kind of this...

(36:24):
don't get that she actually believes that the inevitable bad part's going to come, right?
Right.
Like, it's a bit of an American movie, the documentary, where it's like, you're followingthis guy around and he's doing all this stuff and isn't this wild and it's gonna make a
great story, because the turn is still up ahead.

(36:45):
So the tone of it really does feel like...
You know, you're just playing pranks.
You're not sure if he's going to be able to pull off Coven.
No.
Coven.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Let alone Northwestern.
Coven sounds like oven and that's just wrong.
No, you're right.
You're right.
You're right.
% right.
American movie is so great.
That just got a new Blu-ray release too.

(37:06):
my gosh.
Yeah, I saw that.
I was like, I got to check it out because I haven't seen it in ages, but it's so good.
So, they then take a trip to meet Leslie's slasher mentor.
Eugene, who is now retired and living with his significantly younger wife, Jamie.
Yeah, Eugene and his wife, Jamie, are two great characters.

(37:27):
And when I was rewatching it, I realized I'd forgotten how much I like them because thetone of their scenes is so odd, but so funny.
she they are talking as casual as this movie is about the brutality of serial killers.
They are probably like.
the most casual because they're like, my God, you got your a habit.
good luck.
And, and the, the implication that Jamie was the fine was Eugene's survivor girl.

(37:54):
And that somehow they have ended up in a romance is just like, my God, if there was asequel, I'd be very curious to, you know, see a few more hints of how that relationship
got started.
all plays out just like a family get together.
I mean, it's, it's just like people sitting down talking shop.
Hey, how was work and.
Well, yeah, that new project is going well.

(38:14):
You're not going to believe this.
And then he asked, you know, I was thinking about killing your friend.
No, no, no.
That's too much too soon.
Like it's just like a family or friends getting together and supporting each other andwhatever their business walk of life is.
It's brilliant.
Yeah.
Like, like their nephew or something like that, who's just really enthusiastic about what,what he's, he's going after.

(38:36):
Of course it's, it's murder, but like,
And Eugene is played by all time great character actor, Scott Wilson.
And he just does this amazing job, just like, just like Nathan, does this amazing jobmixing this warm of funcular quality with just a hint of danger.
Like when they're in the kitchen and the make, he's chopping the hell out that red pepper.

(38:59):
And then stabs the block, like stabs the cutting board with the knife.
Yeah.
Like there's a little, know, he's retired, but you know, it's, it's still there.
Apparently.
And I didn't pick this up, but apparently, reading some material online, Eugene is impliedto be the killer from Black Christmas.
And I guess in an earlier draft, that was much more explicit that he was Billy from BlackChristmas.

(39:24):
I'm like, that's interesting.
Is there, I haven't seen Black Christmas.
Is there a survivor girl?
Like, does that analogy carry out that Jamie would then...
clearly be the girl from that movie.
It's not a, it's not one-to-one situationally.
would, I would imagine that if they're suggesting this, that he was that, that he wasBilly, that that would not have been his first outing.

(39:44):
Cause I don't think it necessarily would be related in how that story plays out.
I think it's interesting with, with, with Eugene, he talks a lot about the business offear.
Those boys lifted it to a whole other level.
They made an art form of it, turned themselves into legends.
by returning like a curse over and over again.

(40:04):
That was a radical change in philosophy.
Changed the whole business.
The business of supernatural killing sprees.
She's not exactly on board yet with the whole why we do what we do thing.

(40:25):
know, young lady, about the business of fear.
Every culture, every civilization from the dawn of man has had its monsters.
For good to be pitted against evil, you have to have evil, don't you?
And this idea that in order for good to exist and triumph over evil, evil must thereforeexist.

(40:52):
And what these guys do
is provide that evil that allows good to triumph.
And that is a super interesting idea.
Like it calls back to a movie that we talked about on this show a long, a while ago calledLegend, Ridley Scott's Legend, like it feels like good and evil are these opposing forces

(41:12):
that need to be both kept in check.
Or Dark Crystal.
Dark Crystal, absolutely.
But what I find very interesting about this
you know, as he's, you know, espousing why he's, why he does what he does and why he'sdedicating his life to this.
I wonder the term survivor girl makes much more sense in light of his care, his speechhere versus because a final girl versus final wind up dead.

(41:38):
Right.
But a survivor girl by definition must survive.
you know, so I, I, it's interesting because in some ways it seems like it's setting upthat he
He wants someone to survive this.
He wants good to exist.
there's no question.
It's just he needs to, he needs to be the evil to do it.

(41:58):
No, think that's absolutely.
And we'll, we'll, when we get to the end of the movie, I think that's, that's a key partof it.
The next scene is the library scene.
The next big scene is the library scene, which is honestly one of the highlights of themovie, where, where basically he chooses the librarian to be the red herring.
Basically a person.
tangentially connected to the survivor girl who is killed early on.

(42:22):
And again, we're talking about Nathan's performance, the excitement and joy that he showsas he's putting this all together in the library is fantastic, despite the fact that what
he's doing is getting ready to commit murder.
This is where we got that Paradise Lost Found It line, which is so good.

(42:45):
He goes to create this connection between Kelly and the killer by planting this article inthe library indicating that Kelly's great uncle raped Leslie's mother and might be
Leslie's real father.
And Rob, I thought of you, not with that.
That's not why I thought of you.
I thought of you because he creates a fake role of microfiche.

(43:06):
And Rob, I know you're a big microfiche fan.
know that.
You're goddamn right.
You're goddamn right.
I'm a big fan of microfiche.
And look, that's just another tiny little level of detail that, of course, if you'reinvestigating stuff to draw into a killer, you have to have microfiche in a library.
Absolutely.
It's such a great visual thing.

(43:27):
Like you pull it.
It's different than you're just pulling it up on a computer.
Like it's the it's the way it moves through the viewer.
It's it's so cool looking.
Yes.
And this is where we get Zelda Rubenstein in this great one scene role as the librarian.
She is just fantastic.
And
We get more of the story of Leslie's origin in this scene.

(43:50):
Mr.
and Mrs.
Vernon on their wedding day.
That's the first and last photograph you'll ever see of them.
They were a strange couple.
They kept entirely to themselves.
After that night, nine months after that night in fact.
Molly Vernon gave birth to a bastard son.

(44:13):
my God.
He was horribly abused.
He was forced to live in the Siger House and driven like a slave to till the fields withonly a hand scythe.
One day, legend has it, the boy revolted.
Beneath a blood-red harvest moon, he murdered Silas with the hand scythe.

(44:38):
buried his body in the fields and dragged Molly from the house, hanging her in the farm'sapple orchard.
When the crimes were discovered, the incense townspeople marched upon the farmhouse,dragged the boy from the house, bound his hands, and marched him over the falls to the

(45:04):
banks of the
This is also when the movie shifts aesthetics.

(45:36):
for a bit, because for this period in the library, we're no longer in the fauxdocumentary, but we move into a slasher movie itself.
And it's really a great transition, and you can just feel the change.
I you can see the change, but you can also feel the change.
It's really interestingly done.
Yeah, I didn't go back and rewatch the commentary because I had loaned out my disk with iton there.

(45:59):
But I remember the commentary for this part of the film and where the director talks abouthow great it was to work with Zelda Rubinstein.
And the thing I thought of is there's a shot where the librarian and where Kelly arewalking away from the camera.
Kelly seems to be twice Zelda's height.

(46:21):
And I remember on the commentary,
He talks about how Zelda hated that she was being filmed from behind.
And so you can kind of see that he's put some stuff in the foreground to like obscure it alittle bit, because I think he really wanted that shot where like Kelly was a giant and
she was just this little elf of a person there.
Right.
Which is an interesting construction, but anytime I watched it, I think about him talkingabout Zelda berating him for setting the camera at that angle.

(46:46):
that's amazing.
Yeah, it's real interesting as this is also the first time we see Leslie in full slashermode.
Within outfit, he's got a mask, is kind of Michael Myers-esque.
It's in the vein.
But then it's combined with the look of Hillbilly Jason from Friday the 13th Part 2.

(47:07):
He's got the overalls and it's kind of worn.
It's not the later Jason, but it's kind of Friday 2 Jason.
The other aspect of this scene that's fantastic is we are introduced to another characterplayed by a horror legend, Robert Englund as Doc Halloran.
who is Leslie Vernon's Ahab.
And I just, the note I wrote while watching it was just simply, Robert Englund is Loomis,amazing.

(47:32):
And it absolutely is.
He's perfectly cast as that.
It's great.
It's like with Kane.
mean, those are the big two, right?
Yeah.
Those are the two that everyone knows that the recognizable faces out there on the scene.
And when he pops up, he just couldn't be any better.
He's wonderful in everything.
He really is.
He really is.

(47:52):
I liked them back on V even before.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I saw that before I saw Nightmare on Elm Street.
Same, yeah.
So now he calls them, they have an Ahab.
And I love the scene where they're back at Eugene's place.
And he is so excited that he got an Ahab.
Like it feels like this thing where it's like, and then of course, Taylor veryenthusiastically, what's an Ahab?

(48:17):
Happy Dayum, Duckhorn.
Right when you need it.
It's unbelievable.
It looks like you got your AM.
Leslie, who is Doc Halloran?
He's a psychiatrist.
He visited me when I was little.

(48:39):
And after Leslie took off, Doc Halloran always predicted he would come back.
So you're going to go after him now?
No, hell no.
I need him.
Why?
Why do you need him?
Because he's an Ahab, and that is a remarkable thing.
You're going to have to define an Ahab.
OK, an Ahab in this context is a reflection of everything that is good.

(49:01):
in humanity, someone who is willing to defend others against evil, even at a greatpersonal cost.
He knows what I am.
He knows what I'll be doing.
He will stop at nothing to try and stop me.
this is sex-great news!
Woo-hoo!
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
The boy needs to focus.

(49:22):
Gene, he's got an A-Hab.
You can't get a little excited.
We are so proud of him.
We are very proud of him.
It's apparently a very special thing and everybody's so excited about it.
Again, it's like he got a promotion at work.
Yeah.
The way they're talking about it.
We're so proud of you.
yeah.
It's I'm so proud of you.
Look what a good job you're doing.

(49:43):
You got an A-Hab.
I want to point out, I have a small note on this scene is they're showing him footage fromthe documentary they shot, which is a gigantic documentary ethics no-no here.
yeah.
And so I like the implication that they have been drawn into his web that they really arefeeling like a part of it.

(50:03):
And it's stopped being about staying on the right side of the line between subject andauthor.
like, they're in this and they're, you know, actively like helping him build this andshowing him, here's what we got.
Did you see this angle we got?
Like that, that was the thing that it took me a couple of viewings to catch from like, Ibet that's not an accident.
I bet that's not laziness.
I bet that is 100 % deliberate on their point.

(50:25):
As you pointed out before,
Taylor being the one to pull the brick away.
Like there are subtle moments here where we see them, you know, being drawn more and moreinto Leslie's web, doing the things that Leslie needs them to do because he wants it done.
Exactly.
And that that's one of them right there where, yeah, you're not supposed to show thesubject what you're doing with that footage.

(50:45):
No, no, that is the, you're absolutely right.
it's, it's the, the, the, the character arc that Taylor has from starting out as
as this observer, as a more traditional documentarian, becoming an active participant, andthen where she's going to go in the end.
Nathan is terrific in this movie, but Angela is also terrific because she is thecounterpoint to him and she follows that arc and she does it incredibly well.

(51:16):
And she really does.
the other part, love the, this is, think, I mean, it's right up front, but it's also.
The meta commentary on slasher villains with the a hab is very fun because it is mentionedas such a special thing that they're celebrating, which is true.
Most slasher villains don't have an a hab really, you know, you know, Michael Myers does.

(51:41):
think Nancy, Nancy, could say,
becomes she graduated from survivor girl to a have in nightmare three.
I guess in the middle, the, in the Tommy trilogy, a portion of Friday, you know, Jasongets an a hab a little bit.
Tommy becomes an a hab for part six.
Yeah.
But I mean, you think about, you know, prom night, terror train, happy birthday to me.

(52:06):
There are no Ahabs.
The vast majority do not get an Ahab.
It truly is special.
It is.
Absolutely.
They have reason to be excited.
But again, it's also, this is insane because they're talking about killing me.
Yes.
So against Leslie's instructions, Taylor goes to the coffee shop to try and get a closer

(52:28):
look at Kelly and maybe talk to her, but there she is accosted by Doc Halloran, who tellsher that Leslie is not who he claims to be.
And this is a very interesting twist.
comes basically at the midpoint of the movie and that Leslie is in fact Leslie Mancuso ofReno, Nevada.

(52:50):
And the whole Leslie Vernon identity and backstory is one he assumed as part of becoming
this legendary slasher.
So in a world where movie slasher villains are real, the persona that Leslie takes on isfabricated or at least assumed.
Maybe there was a boy who lived at the farm and was thrown in the river and died and hehas taken on that.

(53:14):
It's actually closer to like My Bloody Valentine with the killer who assumes the personaof Harry Warden.
Yes.
So when Leslie learns that Taylor talked to Kelly, this is where we get the scene thatAdam, you mentioned before, where
He is angry and we see for the first time a fury and an anger when he grabs her physicallyand pins her against the van.

(53:41):
Again, the guy's still filming in the van, which I think is hysterical, but it's the firsttime we see the affable Leslie Vernon mask drop, revealing something darker underneath.
You want to just pretend?
that we've already had the conversation we're about to have?
Leslie.
Okay, that's your portion of the right there.
Now here's mine.

(54:02):
You asked if you could talk to her.
I told you no.
You'd be fucked up.
God damn it.
I've shown you pearls.
Shit no one's ever seen.
If you wanna pack it up and go home, that is fine.
It's not gonna affect what I have to do.
And frankly, I'll be glad not dragging you fuckers along anymore.

(54:31):
My life's work.
Don't do it.
So Taylor has this debate where she decides, is she going to stick around?
Is she going to continue?
She ultimately decides to stay and Leslie takes the crew to the farm to show them step bystep what is going to happen.
This, this part of the movie is absolutely fascinating as he takes Taylor and the crewaround the house, showing them what he has set up.

(54:56):
It's like the part of a heist movie when you're going through the plan and everything issupposed to happen.
It's, it's, it's fantastic.
It might've been my favorite part of the movie.
Yeah, it has one of my favorite bits when he's showing the weapons in the barn.
I get, and there's all the talk about the, you know, the weapons symbolizing, you know,male power or the phallus.

(55:19):
Yes.
And the, but my favorite part is just, yeah, the, head's going to come off thissledgehammer.
This axis rigged to break after one strike.
all of, you know, it's for any.
any fan of horror movies, all very fun stuff that he's rigged up again, you know, yourBatman levels of preparation here.

(55:41):
and it was, I think Adam mentioned before, like he's, he's rigged the fuses in the houseto go off by remote control.
He sealed some of the doors and windows.
So he's controlling where people can exit and he's weakened a prominent tree branchoutside a second story window.
So it collapse under a person's weight.
that will come back into play later.
And it's just, they're putting a lampshade on some of these classic slasher movie tropes,like hiding in the closet.

(56:08):
And she's like, well, why not just reach in and grab them?
And that's where you get the whole closet is a sacred space, symbolic of the womb, whichis both insightful and kind of funny and ridiculous.
And it's just a hair away from Dr.
Evil being like, Scott, you just don't understand how this is done.

(56:28):
Why don't you just go kill him, dad?
You we got a gun.
We could just go shoot him.
Scott.
The other part of this segment that I like is when they're sitting down and she'sinterviewing him almost as if she was like, you know, a 60 minutes correspondent talking
to him.
And there's some really fun stuff there in his performance as he's kind of overplayingbeing the interview subject.

(56:52):
And at one point,
where one of the guys behind the camera asks a question and they're like, wait, Taylor, weshould get you asking that.
Taylor shifts into interviewer mode and he's like, that's correct, Taylor.
There's little subtleties in the performance there that make me laugh every time I watchit, no matter how many times I've seen it.
there's a beautiful moment with Leslie's face.

(57:15):
It's when they're talking about the closet as the sacred space and symbolic of the womband the look on Leslie's face.
when she asks if that means he's pro-life.
He doesn't answer it.
He just, the look is so subtle and perfect.
Like he doesn't fully, it's not like he, doesn't pull a face.
It is the most subtle change of like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

(57:39):
Yeah.
Leslie has this incredible ability to predict what people are going to do.
So like he knows that a couple's going to head up to that bedroom to get it on and they'regoing to be the first one he's killed.
It's,
It's like he's the only one in this world that has studied slasher movies, so that giveshim the advantage.

(58:00):
All of this is in service of getting to a one-on-one showdown between Leslie and Kelly,his chosen survivor girl.
Leslie, I feel as though you want Kelly to enter the tool shed.
That's correct, Taylor.
It's the first sign of empowerment I'll be looking for in her.
At some point, she's gonna turn a corner.
It's a pivotal moment when she makes a transition from victim to heroine.

(58:25):
This is visually manifested when she reaches for a big, long, weapon.
You know what I'm talking about?
It's okay, Tay.
It's deeply symbolic.
She's empowering herself with cocks.

(58:49):
Look, you go back and research all of those women who survived their ordeals and Iguarantee you, none of them did it with a dinky little gun.
So you're saying she'll reach for something phallic on purpose?
my weapon.
That's the ultimate because she'll be taking my manhood and empowering herself with it.

(59:14):
So you're a pro-life and you're a chauvinist.
It's convention pay.
You have to respect it.
But as Rob mentioned, the idea is that he's rigged these weapons to not be completelylethal.
You know, that empowerment only goes so far.
Well, he's at a severe disadvantage there, you know?
He's outnumbered.

(59:34):
You know, that's he's got to, you know, take his cheating where he finds it.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And eventually Kelly will be left with nowhere else to go but the orchard, which Lesliesays represents the birth canal or Yannick imagery, the opposite of phallic.
And the plan is for it end up at the cider house, which in the legend that we hear earlieris where young Leslie was forced to live before he killed his parents.

(59:59):
And then there's this cider press.
which will play a key role in the final act guys.
It's check off cider press.
Absolutely.
And, you know, and the, legend of Leslie, which he's building and which we know, isbullshit, with the Dr.
Halloran character and you know, the Reno and all that, the game before this is purefabrication.

(01:00:21):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's all, it's all a fabrication, which again, it he's, he's buildinghis own
real world horror screenplay.
The way he's setting up these obstacles and things that they have to do, and this is whereshe's going to go.
It's terrific.
Again, the level of detail and the little subtle nods to other things.

(01:00:45):
I didn't even mention the turtles.
He's got turtles in his house that are the same names as the pets from the first two PetSematary movies.
And he's like, they just won't die.
Yeah, exactly.
Perfect.
So the whole time you're thinking, and at least I'm thinking watching this for the firsttime, like Taylor and her crew, they can't just let these murders happen.

(01:01:09):
maybe they don't believe it's real because it's all so odd.
But then the first kill happens in the bedroom as planned and their attitude changes.
It's like, holy shit, this is really happening.
And it's a fascinating turn as we kind of.
break into the third act.
So when Taylor realizes it's all real and Leslie takes them outside and tells them toleave, basically this point, the documentary is over and we do the same thing we did in

(01:01:36):
the library scene.
We switched the aesthetic to a horror film and like it changes.
And from here on forward, we're going to be full on in a horror film.
So we've gotten to deconstruct it, but now we're putting it back together.
Again, it's like a Penn and Teller bit.
Totally.
There's a bit.
right before the changeover where Leslie is saying his goodbyes to them.

(01:01:58):
And one of the two guys, I can't remember which one, you know, just kind of like almostunconsciously or out of habit is like, good luck with with everything tonight, man.
Like.
So this is where Taylor makes a decision that they can't just let this happen.
They have to stop Leslie.

(01:02:18):
And this ties in.
something that was mentioned earlier, the transformation of a character from the victim tothe heroine.
And Taylor finds herself undergoing that same evolution that Leslie has planned for hissurvivor girl, Kelly.
It's a really interesting parallel, especially where the film is going to go.

(01:02:39):
Yes.
And I'll talk more about this later.
mean, I, you know, but I do, I want to come back to the point that you're talking about,but I'll wait until the story catches up.
So.
They go into the house, they feel like they have the advantage because they know the plan.
So they encounter the two stoner dudes who are part of the party, then they go upstairsand much to everyone's surprise, they discover that Kelly is not a virgin after all.

(01:03:07):
She is having sex with her boyfriend in one of the bedrooms upstairs and we have the scenewhere they're back in the living room and Taylor's trying to explain what's going on.
Wait, wait!
Who the fuck are you?
Why are you following me?
Kelly, you have to come with us.
There's no time to explain.
Come on.

(01:03:29):
Okay everybody, everybody let's go.
We're taking you all out of here right now.
Todd!
There is a man named Leslie Mancruzo here tonight.
He's in the cellar right now.
He's planned this entire evening.
He's gonna stalk and kill each and every one of you.
No way that how Leslie Vernon did?

(01:03:50):
No, it's not Leslie Vernon.
It's Leslie Mancruzo.
Where's Lauren?
She went down to the cellar.
without one other dude.
With Pete?
No, no, no, no, no.
Well, you can't go down there.
Why not?
Because.
Because it's too late.
So one of the two stoners gets killed.

(01:04:12):
Like just as Leslie predicted, he tries to go into the tool shed and he gets killed with apost hole digger.
They try to start the van to get out of there, but he's sabotaged the van.
This is where we learn that Leslie is one step ahead of the group.
He has factored their participation.
into his plan.
They go back into the house, they end up back on the second floor.
Kelly makes an attempt to go out the window, but the tree branch gives way that we set upearlier and she falls to her death.

(01:04:39):
So she is not going to be the survivor girl.
It doesn't matter.
You don't matter.
Why are you saying that?
He knew.
I knew before we started, we even met.

(01:05:01):
That's why he agreed to do this.
He found me before we ever shot a frame.
not making any sense.
It's perfect.
my god.
It's genius.
Taylor, knock it off.
His plan, his plan, it's fucked.

(01:05:22):
Okay, he's got no virgin and Todd made him run in the wrong direction.
Now think.
Angela soon comes to the realization that in fact, she is the survivor girl.
Now the twist is out of the bottle.
I just want to, you go back to what his speech was Leslie's speech earlier that good can'texist without evil.

(01:05:50):
And you look at who Taylor was before meeting him and before him drawing her into hisworld and where she winds up.
She was a reporter of some stripe who was kind of out for a story and probably not superworried about the morals of what she was doing.
And here at the end, she's fighting and trying to save people.

(01:06:12):
you go, at least in the level of this, of the film, the story, I don't know that that goodin her would have blossomed without the evil of Leslie doing all this stuff.
And she comes to the realization that this is what he had planned all along.
that he agreed to do the documentary as a means of drawing her in.

(01:06:32):
And we learn that she is, yes, in fact, a virgin as well.
So that, again, fitting in with the tropes of the genre that Leslie is using to constructthis whole scenario.
This is where I think the movie is also very smart and kind of yadda yadda-ing past howLeslie came to meet them, how she got the idea for this documentary because

(01:06:58):
This is the point where if you started thinking too much about how all those dominoes wereset up all that much in the beginning, it would start to fall apart.
And by not giving us some version of that to have to reconstruct in our minds once werealized he's masterminded it, we're able to just kind of go with it.
Like, okay, I don't know who found who exactly.
I don't know what led to that encounter.

(01:07:20):
We just took it as a buy-in at the start and we're going to just run with it here.
And I'm glad they didn't get stuck in the idea of like answering the note or like overcomplicating like how he had like maybe enticed her to find him or how he had like put
himself into her life the way he ostensibly was putting himself in Kelly's life.
We're kind of like, you know, reel her in like a fish.

(01:07:42):
Like it's where the one place where I could see someone who was doing this sort of moviecould easily fall into the trap of, we've got to explain it.
And I think it's so much smarter that they don't.
And that's something that horror fans would like a true horror fan would know.
Like, why is the Overlook Hotel haunted?
Why did the Americans get bit by a werewolf when they're visiting, you know, England?

(01:08:08):
So many times these stories don't drill all the way down.
I think part of that sphere of the unknown also, just the more you explain, the less it'sscary.
But also, you know,
it's all metaphor and things and you know, to try and go to logic proof, you just wind upkilling the thing most of the time.

(01:08:29):
There are ones where you get drill into an explanation and it works.
But I think in general, leaving a little mystery like you're talking about is super smartand actually more satisfying as an audience member.
just, if, it's done well and you're in the middle of it, you just buy it.
Well, and because we've seen him do it to Kelly, like we've seen how he expertly set itset up those things for Kelly and she had no idea she was being played.

(01:08:53):
And so you can think about, OK, so whatever Taylor thinks happened probably is not, youknow, she was she was a rat in his maze from the beginning and she's just starting to
figure that out.
And we've seen how much he's capable of that kind of Batman like planning to use yourterm, Chris.
And so it absolutely fits like, OK, however he found them, however they ended up doingthis.

(01:09:14):
I buy it because he was smart enough and he showed us how smart he was.
It's your Penn and Teller thing.
Right.
Because you've seen him do all the stuff with Kelly and all that background.
Well, okay, we know what he's capable of.
You don't need to explain how he found Taylor or anything like that.
And to Rob's point of leaving something unexplained, like why is the hotel, why is theoverlook haunted?

(01:09:43):
It's like,
It's like the ship in Alien.
It's just there.
And you don't explain the space jockey.
One of the things that made me insane with Prometheus is, the space jockey is like a, youknow, a fairly tall albino humanoid character.

(01:10:03):
Like that made me crazy.
I'm like, I don't want to know what's under that helmet.
I don't need to know.
It's ancient and it is part of a vast unfeeling universe.
And sometimes you just are better off not knowing.
Yeah, this is anyway, I'm just gonna let me keep beating the dead horse here.
But, you know, for all of the downsides to Lovecraft's writing, I think this is one of theupsides.

(01:10:26):
It's just you can have a bunch of weird lore, but at the end of the day, you know, you getto the point where it's turtles all the way down.
Yeah.
And that's scarier.
Well, yes.
You say they're the old ones.
That's all I need to know.
It's one of the things that makes Alien like the most sort of one of the most genuinelyLovecraftian horror movies out there.

(01:10:46):
You know, even with its decided lack of tentacles, because most of the time people sayLovecraftian, they just mean something with tentacles like, Mike Halimari is so
Lovecraftian.
there you go.
But it is.
So Leslie, Leslie picks off the remaining kids one at a time.

(01:11:11):
They, in very different ways, like one gets hung from the second floor of the barn, whichreminded me of Jason in Friday the 13th, part three.
Doc Halloran shows up and is almost immediately hit in the head with a shovel.
Taylor ends up in the barn and she goes right down the path that was set for Leslie forthe survivor girl.

(01:11:31):
She goes to the tool shed where she picks up an axe to defend herself and then into theorchard.
She even has that moment where she takes her sweater off.
So she ends up in a tank top for the final confrontation.
Like there's a visual, like, that feels like what happens in a horror movie where, youknow, they're down at the tank top.
And the final confrontation happens in the cider house as Leslie planned.

(01:11:53):
Taylor's able to stab him with his own hand scythe and then she's able to get his head inthe press.
And this is one of the most, you he clearly planned for his, he always intended to losethat final confrontation with the survivor girl because his head is in the press and she's
turned it a little bit.
And then he whispers her for her to do it.

(01:12:17):
And she gives it that one final turn.
then she sets the cider house on fire.
It's all part of the ritual.
Like him wanting to be defeated by the survivor girl.
That's how the story goes.
It's all part of the ritual.
Amazing.
So we end up with, we learned that Doug, the other cameraman and Doc Halloran, they didsurvive.

(01:12:38):
And, and, and as we watched the, the, the cider house go up in flames, the, the, thecredits start to roll.
But then in the closing credits, we see security camera footage of Leslie's body in themorgue.
And in that final moment,
just before the credits are, they really let the time go on it.

(01:12:58):
He sits up and it's just, I mean, you knew it was coming.
You wait through the whole credits.
They got talking heads playing and it's great.
And he sits up and it's, mean, I'd be curious to get your interpretations of that.
Cause I thought it was fascinating.
And again, it's the Batman level playing.
This is one where, at least for me, I do wonder where,

(01:13:23):
It's, you for me, there's just this has to be supernatural at the end.
I know.
But it's almost like that's what happens with a lot of these slasher movies where itstarts very realistic.
And then if the franchise goes on, it inevitably gets more supernatural.
Obviously, Nightmare started supernatural.
But you think it was a put on?

(01:13:43):
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
One, I think there's the implication that he rigged the cider press to to not be lethal.
Like he knew that his head was going to end up in there and that she was going to turn it.
know, get, I don't know how he rigged it.
I have blessed little experience with cider presses, alone rigging them to be survivable.

(01:14:07):
But I think that it's reasonable that he mentions that the makeup he puts on is flameretardant.
Now that was a big fire, you know, a little flame retardant, but like the idea that hemight have enough forethought.
for there to be like a fireproof compartment in the cider house or even below it.
Like, yeah, I escaped to this little compartment below.
And then you have Eugene, they set up the technique of him slowing down his heart rate andeverything to simulate death.

(01:14:36):
I feel like the implication is that these are all things that he has done becauseultimately he wanted to survive to return for a second encounter somewhere down the line.
Yeah, it's the one part of the movie that I'm maybe not entirely on board with.
Because you pointed out there are ways we can work out, you know, how he survived, youbringing it all that.

(01:14:57):
it's it's in terms of like the killer coming back, which is a staple of these movies.
I there's something about seeing him actually, you know, get up from, you know, the themorgue that doesn't work for me the way the rest of it does.
And I don't know if maybe
that morgue scene isn't generally a staple of these movies.
Usually it's like the killer springs up from like, if he came running out of the flamessomehow, I think maybe it would work for me.

(01:15:23):
But it's the way it's kind of staged in that post-credit scene.
know it's the one thing that every time I watch it, I'm like, that's not quite the stingat the end of the movie I want, but I don't know what I really want either.
And there has been talk of a sequel over the years.
You know, you know where it's like, you'd pick up on the, the story because again, a lotof these slasher franchises have become, you know, franchises where the killer comes back.

(01:15:49):
I gotta be honest.
I am, I am apprehensive about a sequel cause this movie is so terrific on its own.
It would have to be an absolute grand slam.
And I would be worried that it, might not be like it's, it's sometimes know when to stop.
It's a little bit of a different environment now too, cause one.
I mentioned earlier that this film is singular in many ways, but also there have beensome, not, don't know if you'd say offspring, but like the creep films, for example, have

(01:16:18):
you guys seen creep?
have not.
haven't seen the new show yet.
Yeah.
I haven't seen that yet either, but creep is, it's a very meta also very Blair Witch,influenced type thing.
mean, it really is blending this film, Leslie Vernon and Blair Witch to where it's.
You're spending time with a serial killer who films himself.

(01:16:43):
And you're seeing his practices, his MO, how he contacts people, how he draws them in, andhis madness, how it flips back and forth.
It's very similar to this movie, but in more of a direct way where instead of him beinginterviewed, you're just directly spending time with him, quote unquote, in the film.
So you become Angela basically.

(01:17:05):
Kind of, yeah.
But really more almost like it's that voyeur aspect that began with all the early POVstuff that became the thing in so many slasher films.
It takes that POV to a different level where you're, cause it's things that he'sdeliberately recording that you're bearing witness to.

(01:17:25):
Interesting.
And it, and it's done so well.
And he is the guy, Mark.
can't remember what his name is in that.
it Duplass?
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
He's he's absolutely brilliant in it.
And I just don't know now.
mean, you look at this 2009, this again, it's this came up on one of our other Fridayepisodes where I made the comparison to wrestling, the world of wrestling.

(01:17:49):
And like we're beyond the point of people being able to be just completely lost without.
thinking about how the sauce is made to a certain extent.
I mean, we're inundated with trailers and teasers and behind the scenes stuff, even beforea movie comes out.
It's almost impossible not to know a little something about something.

(01:18:10):
And this kind of movie, it came 10 years after Scream, which Scream is still the benchmarkfor what people call self referential.
But now we're to the point where it's so completely meta.
in a lot of movies.
I just don't know if there needs to be another Leslie Vernon movie.
It was of its time and it was a perfect companion, like you were saying, Adam, to screamin a way that I just don't know that that third chapter in that, like if you're thinking

(01:18:40):
of three films, think creep, if anything, probably serves in that role on a morecontemporary basis.
I'm going to have to check out creep.
I haven't I've heard of it.
But I have not, I have not.
It's a series as well.
it's a, there's a new series that just came out on shutter.
I haven't had a chance yet with Mark in the, in the lead role again.
There are two films though.

(01:19:01):
Right.
Creep.
Right.
I don't think there was a third one.
Yeah.
I think it's just the two.
Yeah.
And then that, series is like brand new, brand new, brand new.
Yeah.
And then, I mean, you know, something that fits this mold, not in the, you know, itdoesn't have the quite the meta of someone.
being filmed, but, in a violent nature, think is also an offshoot, in of, of this realm.

(01:19:27):
that blends role playing games that blends like the Friday, the 13th video game to tiethis into Friday, which is our theme here and, the spending time with the killer.
I the entire runtime of in a violent nature, you're following directly behind almost likehe has.
a GoPro over his shoulder.

(01:19:48):
He doesn't.
It's not like that.
That was a movie called Chrome Skull years ago where they did that.
But you're just following him around as he walks through the woods when he sleeps, when hewakes up, when he encounters people.
It's not all.
bloody kills from wall to wall and a lot of people were very critical of it in that way.
But it's almost more like a nature film crew following a deer around for a season orsomething.

(01:20:13):
And with all of that just, you know, like behind the mask, it forces you to see all of themoments in between kills that, you know, the old slasher movies of course don't have for
the most part.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's a really interesting film.
I'm glad I got a chance to see it.
I'm sorry that I didn't see it earlier.
Like it's one of those movies I'm like, I wish I had been watching this.
for like the last decade or so.

(01:20:35):
And it was like, was always on my list.
I just hadn't gotten to it.
So I think that brings us to the end of today's episode.
Adam, thank you so much for joining us.
It has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you about this really, really unique film.
Yeah, it was great to be here.
And I'm always down for a celebration of this movie because it deserves a much biggeraudience than it had on release.

(01:20:57):
And it deserves a much wider reputation than I assume it has now.
Like this is a true hidden gem that any chance I get to talk about this or broaden theaudience for this one, I will take.
So thank you for having me on.
you're very welcome.
It was was it was a delight.
And can you tell us where you can be found out there in the world?

(01:21:18):
Well, you can find me on Twitter and Blue Sky as Bitterscript reader.
I'm not using Twitter as much lately, you know, mostly on Blue Sky.
And then I have a blog of the same name you can find by just Googling Bitter ScriptReader, but I have not updated it as much in the last several years, but that's pretty

(01:21:38):
much where I live online.
I got to recommend your blog because I read a little bit of it this week and an articleyou'd written or a blog entry you'd written, I should say, about the third season of Star
Trek Picard.
And I thought it was terrific.
It was a terrific piece.
and really insightful into that show that I watched all three seasons and I kind of hadmixed reactions to it, but I thought your analysis of it was terrific.

(01:22:06):
thanks.
I appreciate that.
Yeah, there's probably a good 10 years of archives there.
It's more or less around the time I started working on the show, I really startedneglecting the blog.
But yeah, you can go back and I even have a retrospective piece on Behind the Mask, whichI wrote.
I think in 2009 or 2010 when I was, you know, hyping it up, you know, some, some timeafter I discovered it.

(01:22:29):
So there's a lot there about screenwriting and TV writing and horror movies in general,but I've just not put a lot of new stuff on there in the last several years.
Gotcha.
And I'm going to check out your book, Michael F and Bay, the unherald genius of MichaelBay's films, because that sounds fantastic.
And Adam, if,
If you shoot us the link to that behind the mask article, we can put it in the show notes.

(01:22:52):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Let me, let me Google that and I'll send it right on over to you.
And while this is our last episode for 2024, we will be back on January 14th with aspecial get me another Conan the Barbarian bonus episode in which we'll be looking at
Robert Eggers 2022 film, The Northman.

(01:23:13):
It is a fascinating movie with some very distinct
Conan DNA in it, and we will be doing a deep dive into that.
Again, that's January 14th, 2025.
And until then, thank you so much for listening.
We are your hosts, Chris Iannacone, Rob Lemorgis, and Justin Beam.
If you've enjoyed our show, please consider subscribing and following us on Blue Sky,Instagram, Threads, and Twitter, all at Get Me Another Pod.

(01:23:39):
And remember, if you've liked the show, tell your friends about it, tell your enemiesabout it.
Tell that guy in a mask being followed by a film crew about it.
And join us next time as we continue to explore what happens when Hollywood says, get meanother.