August 26, 2025 • 50 mins
What inspires a young boy to dream about a career in the US Army and then, after graduating from West Point, manage to prepare for—and survive—combat? In a “solo” installment of GoodFellows, Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster, Hoover’s Fouad and Michelle Ajami Senior Fellow, a former national security advisor to the president, and a highly honored combat veteran, discusses his childhood in Philadelphia, the inspiring figures he encountered during his Army years, his roundabout journey to becoming an armor officer, lessons from tank battles in the Middle East, and the importance of faith. He also describes a post-service life in California, where, ironically, an Army man makes sense of world affairs while chillaxing on a paddleboard. Also joining the show: Katie McMaster, who recounts how she and her husband met (it was love at first sight), the challenges of being a military spouse, the day H.R. said goodbye to his head of hair (he shaved his head at her insistence), plus her ongoing campaign to spare her Orange County neighbors from the blare of H.R.’s favorite tunes.
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>> Bill Whalen (00:00):
Hi, this is Bill Whalen from Goodfellows.
The Hoover Institution is proud toannounce two national competitions
honoring the life and
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Let me repeat that,hoover.org/thomas-sowell-legacy.
We hope to see you here atHoover in the near future.
(01:11):
Welcome back to Goodfellows, a HooverInstitution broadcast examining social,
economic, political andgeopolitical concerns.
I'm Bill Whalen.
I'm a Distinguished Policy Fellowhere at the Hoover Institution.
I'll be your moderator today.
This is a point where I usually introduceat least two or three of my colleagues,
but today it's just onegood fellow joining us, and
that is Lieutenant-General H.R. McMaster.
(01:31):
In case you're meeting the lieutenantgeneral for the first time,
a few things to know about him.
He is the Fawad Michel Ajahi Senior Fellowhere at the Hoover Institution.
He is of course, a former presidentialNational Security Advisor.
He is a best-selling author.
As I look over my bookcase,I have two of his most recent books.
One is called Out War with Ourselves.
This is about his one-year tour ofduty in the first Trump White House.
Before that, he wrote the excellent bookBattlegrounds, which is also the title
(01:53):
of a video series he does for the HooverInstitution, interviewing world leaders.
What else to say about Lt.
Gen. H.R. McMaster?
Devoted about 35 years of publicservice to his country and
if you follow Goodfellows,he is our resident and veteran optimist.
H.R., it's great to see you.
>> H.R. McMaster (02:09):
Hey Bill, great to be with you.
>> Bill Whalen (02:11):
So in quasi Japanese fashion, H.R. I thought we'd start
the show with a exchange of gifts orat least one gift for you, my friend.
Would you like to open it up andtake a look at it?
Because I think a part of you.
>> H.R. McMaster (02:21):
Very thoughtful of you.
I love it.
Go Go Eagles.
And.
And there's a cheesesteak on there,no doubt, from Della Sandros.
The best,the best cheesesteak in Philadelphia.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, man.
>> Bill Whalen (02:40):
It's a great gift because General McMaster lives and
dies by his beloved Philadelphia Eagles,football season is about to start.
And as his wife will attest whenshe joins us latest on the show,
it's kind of a pair of socks you can wearonce before she either throws them away or
puts them in the back.
But cheese steaks and eagles, Phil,what is it about cheesesteaks that is so
Philadelphia, HR?
>> H.R. McMaster (02:58):
HR hey, it's just, it's a great sandwich, you know,
I mean, and, and, and it is,it is very Philadelphia.
I mean, I, I don't know whatit is about it, but, you know,
people talk about like Genos and Pats,you know, they're across from each other.
And there's a whole ritual on howyou order at Pats in particular,
you have to say cheese with orcheese without.
(03:18):
And then with is with onions, withoutis without onions, or plain with and
plain without.
And if you don't order that way,you have to go to the back of the line,
you know, so.
But at Dalessandro's in my neighborhood,the Roxboro neighborhood,
the line is always around the corner.
I mean, it's so good and it's been sogood for, you know, for generations.
>> Bill Whalen (03:37):
You know, back in 2004,
HR was also the beginning of the endof John Kerry's presidential campaign.
They were taking him aroundthe upper Pennsylvania and Ohio and
Michigan trying to make himlook like a regular gu.
So he goes to one of the cheesesteakplaces and he gets in line and
comes to order.
He asks for one with Swiss cheese.
The whole place just comes to a stop andlooks at him at that point.
>> H.R. McMaster (03:59):
Too funny.
Too funny.
>> Bill Whalen (04:01):
So this is our third solo Goodfellows HR and
in the past two with John Cochran andSir Neil Ferguson.
I made it a point to ask them howthey came about, what they do now,
how John became an economist, how Neilbecame a, a very renowned historian.
And in their cases, it's the same story asHR because it's kind of roundabout juries.
John went to MIT and at firstdidn't want to become an economist.
(04:24):
He kind of gravitated into it.
Neil comes from a family of scientists, so
history was something hediscovered when he got into uni,
as they say in the UK but in your case,your story is different here.
I refer to your excellentsubstack called history.
We don't know.
And a post that you wroteabout Chuck Bednarik, who, for
those not familiar with Philadelphiasports, is a Philadelphia legend.
(04:46):
He was an iron man of the Eagles anda boyhood idol of HRS.
And you wrote this on the occasionof his 100th birthday.
Let me read this back to you.
Bernard pulled his Eagles championship andNFL hall of Fame rings off,
fingers mangled by multiple breaks,and pass them over to me.
Go ahead, try them on.
He said they, of course, did not fit.
He asked me what I wanted to do in life.
I told him that I wantedto go to West Point and
(05:07):
serve as an officer in the U.S. army.
He said something like,
you can accomplish whatever you want toaccomplish if you put your mind to it.
Now, HR my sister's oldest grandsonjust celebrated his 9th birthday.
He wants to be an NFL player.
He wants to be a baseball player.
He's in nine year old la la land.
But here you are.
You were nine years old,I think, when this happened, but
(05:27):
you had kind of your path planned out.
So how did this happen so early in life?
>> H.R. McMaster (05:32):
Yeah, I just, I always wanted to lead soldiers in, in the army.
I wanted to be part of something biggerthan myself and, and to be responsible for
building teams committed to an importantmission, you know, and, and
I was just always drawn to it.
I mean, my earliest memories were,you know, playing army with my friends,
you know, and, andorganizing them into a squad and,
(05:52):
and, and I just always wanted to do it.
And I, I think it had a lot to do withmy mom who, who, who sort of was just
was a tremendous teacher andwho got me interested in history.
And I read a lot of, you know,a lot of the youth biographies, you know,
about military biographies andadventurers and so forth.
And Frontiersman, one of my favorites,still one of my favorites today.
(06:16):
And I recommended his biography, the adultbiography, Don Higginbotham's biography.
And there's another also excellentbiography of Daniel Morgan and
American Frontiersman,
I think was the subtitle ofthe youth biography that I read.
And I just was alwaysdrawn to military service.
>> Bill Whalen (06:33):
So, HR you graduate from West Point in 1984.
Tell us about four years at West Point andhow your love for
history is incorporatedinto the other studies.
Because you just can't go toWest Point and major in history and
just do a liberal arts education, right?
>> H.R. McMaster (06:47):
Well, you can now.
You have to take a verystrong core curriculum that
exposed you to all sorts of otherother disciplines and courses.
But you couldn't major when I was there.
You had you could have a concentration,but everybody got a bachelor of science in
engineering, whether you wanted one ornot.
But I did take as manyhistory courses as I could.
(07:08):
I took a great diplomatic historycourse from one of my old
rugby coaches who became,you know, became one of my.
One of my mentors.
And, and this was then, you know,Major Betson, who, you know,
who then retires as a colonel.
Fantastic person and was my sponsor,my first sponsor at West Point,
(07:29):
who then left after two years.
And so, then Major Betson was my sponsor,was Cole Kingseed.
I just had dinner with him at West Point,got to reconnect with him.
He taught the world history course.
And then taught in the history departmentas a permanent professor when I came back
as a member of the rotating faculty,as a captain and
(07:51):
a major teaching history there.
But how can you not absorbthe history of West Point?
It's so connected to the foundingof our nation, to the revolution.
And then of course all the artifacts thatare there and there used to be this, this,
this poster that you would see it downin the history department area said,
you know, much of the history we teachwas, was made by the people we taught.
(08:12):
You know it would have, it would have youknow, MacArthur and Eisenhower patent and
so forth on it.
But yeah, soI was always interested in history.
My, my concentration was internationalrelations, but I took a lot of,
a lot of history courses.
>> Bill Whalen (08:27):
So you mentioned some mentors while you were at the point.
Tell us a few mentors duringyour climb through the ranks.
>> H.R. McMaster (08:33):
Well, I've got to mention my first battalion
commander, Billy J.
McGowan.
I wrote a little bit abouthim a few years ago and,
and, and he was an extraordinary person.
He was from a sharecropper family, was,was drawn to service himself, came into
our army and as an armor officer servedwith distinction in, in, in, in Vietnam.
(08:53):
And he was just a charismatic leader,larger than life person and
he really cared a lotabout junior officers.
You know, so you'd be you know,on a tank range or something and
then you just feel this bighand come over your shoulder.
And it was, it was,it was Colonel McGowan, you know,
how are you doing Lieutenant?
You know, and, and, and he gave me,you know, he gave me some,
some strange jobs for, fora brand new second lieutenant.
(09:14):
He allowed me to bethe support platoon leader.
I'll tell you Bill,I didn't know what a support platoon was.
You know, it's, it's of course criticalto the battalions mission because it's
all the fuel and ammunition and so forthand, and I was ready to be a tackle too.
I'm like what is this support?
It was the best,
it was the best leadership experience Icould have had as a new second lieutenant.
Got to know the whole battalion andthen, and then,
(09:35):
and then went on to a seriesof other jobs there.
But he was one of my first,you know, key mentors and another,
you know,was a guy named Tom Dials who was the,
he was the division cavalrysquadron commander and, and, and
he ran a division wide scout competitionswhen I was a scout platoon leader.
And I had these great sergeants, you know,
which is the key tosuccess in the military.
(09:56):
A lot of your mentorsreally are your sergeants.
And in this case, you know, I had, I hada great platoon sergeant named Ed Romo and
I had a scout section sergeant namedJoe Zettlemoyer who was just fantastic.
He was my senior scout.
And so we Won that division.
Competition like first, second,third sections were all 166 armor.
(10:20):
And so Tom Dials, the commander, he said,I want you to come to reforger with us,
the return of forces to Germany.
Big maneuver exercise in Germany.
So he, he,he brings my platoon over there.
I think he also grabbed mebecause I'm a rugby player and
they were going to playa rugby match over there.
So he's looking fora few ringers to bring in.
And, and then, andthen he gave us these great missions.
(10:40):
So I got really excited.
I was always excited about the army.
But, you know, I told Katie, my wife,when we got married, I said,
hey, I think I'm gonnaget out after five years.
You know, I want to do my,I want to do my duty for five years, and
then maybe I'll go to law school andthat sort of thing.
I came back from that reforger exercise.
I went to a right arm night at the, atthe officers club with my sergeants, and
(11:01):
they said, what the hell are youdoing getting out of the arm?
I mean, you, you love this stuff, right?
You should, you should stay in.
So I went home that night andsaid to Katie, how about standing?
She's like, fine, that sounds good to me.
So I returned my ticket thatI got to fly to Chicago.
I think I was gonna interview forProcter and Gamble or a big company or
something like that.
(11:22):
I bought a suit, Bill.
I bought a suit and everything, butI didn't want to not need it for a while.
>> Bill Whalen (11:28):
That's funny.
I looked up your various awards andcommendations, HR, my God, it's like
the opening scene in Patton where they godown his uniformity to show everything.
By my count, andyou can correct me if you'd like,
I count at least 12 military decorations.
Nine service med medals, plus a handful ofbadges, patches, and foreign decorations.
That's just a lot of hard work.
Congratulations.
It's my question, ghr, if you were to haveone of your grandchildren sit in your
(11:51):
lap and show them one of your medals orcommendations and use that as kind of
a window to what grandpa did forhis country, which medal would you pick?
>> H.R. McMaster (12:00):
Well, you know, of course, when,
when you're awarded these things, youthink that you're not deserving because,
you know,there are individual awards, but, but
it's always a collective effortin the army, you know, so.
So if I were to point to award,it wouldn't be because I received it.
It would because it would allow me totell a story about some fantastic and
courageous, extremely dedicatedsoldiers that I got to serve with.
(12:24):
And so maybe the one I would selectwas the one from Desert Storm and
tell the story about the Battle of73 Easting and how our cavalry troop
really achieved a lopsided victory againsta numerically superior enemy because of,
of the way we fought together as a team,and how we, we were bound together
(12:46):
by mutual trust, common purpose,but really affection, Bill.
I mean that, that cavalry troop, as anygood, really good military unit, it takes
on the qualities of a family and, and whatallows you to be courageous in battle.
And I think this was the case with our,our troop,
I know this was the case with our troop isyou're more fearful of letting your fellow
(13:08):
soldier down than youare of any enemy bullet.
So it's kind of that sense of honor andthe willingness to take risks and
sacrifice for one another.
>> Bill Whalen (13:18):
So you would show them your Silver Star?
>> H.R. McMaster (13:20):
That would be it, yeah, that would be it.
>> Bill Whalen (13:22):
Tell us a bit about what it's like to go into battle and
then recover from battle.
Thanks to Hollywood,
we have all these impressions aboutwhat it's like to prepare for war.
Sad scenes of men signing insurance formsif they're going to storm the beaches of
Normandy, people writing letters totheir loved ones, things to that effect.
But how do you prepare going into battleknowing that the next day might be your
(13:44):
last day?
>> H.R. McMaster (13:46):
Well, I,
I think part of it is you prepareyour whole career for it.
I mean, I, I wanted to, I begged myparents to go to a military high
school because I wanted to be in the,in the military, then went to West Point.
So I felt like I was preparing myself forthat moment.
You always ask that question, right?
I think, you know, young men and women whocome in the army, how I react, you know,
will I have what it takes?
You know, that kind of a,you know, thinking about war.
(14:09):
Because you read about it froma historical perspective and
other people's experiences andlearn about it that way as well.
So I read a lot of first hand accountsof combat, leadership in combat.
James McDonough's platoon leaderis fantastic by, by the way, for
Vietnam, Charles B.
McDonald's book on company commanderabout his World War II experience.
(14:32):
And so I try to prepare myself bylearning from the experiences of others.
And then when you say goodbyeto your family, I mean,
I just don't dwell in the negative.
I mean, andI think my family's like that too.
I mean it's not productive,I think, to engage in sort of,
you know, what could happen, for example.
(14:54):
And I think in combat,it's important for you to realize,
hey, not every bullet's got your name onit, so hopefully you'll be fortunate.
As, as Churchill said,
there is nothing more exhilaratingthan to be f shot at without effect.
And I've found that to be the case.
And really what happens in battle, youknow, and in terms of preparation for it,
(15:15):
you should know that you'regoing to do your duty.
I mean, I think, as forthe reason I mentioned already,
which is you don't want to let yourfellow troopers down, but also,
as a leader,you're kind of insulated from fear, Bill.
I can't remember,I don't recall feeling fear in combat.
(15:36):
And I think, I think that's becauseI was preoccupied with ensuring
that I made the right decisions,made timely decisions to ensure
that that art our troopers had the bestchance to overmatch the enemy and
to come out of combat actionswithout suffering casualties.
>> Bill Whalen (15:54):
How important is the role of faith in all of this?
>> H.R. McMaster (15:57):
It's extremely important, Bill.
There's the old saying,There's no atheist foxholes.
Hey, I think that is truly the case andBill, I have to tell you,
there are things that I can't explain thathave happened to me in combat, honestly.
And I think it's divine providence,I mean, maybe others could come
up with an explanation, but thereare certain things I just cannot explain.
(16:20):
I roll rolling down a street in Tafa orBaghdad and
feeling like a tap on my shoulder orsomething and it's saying,
stop, driver stop, scan the area andthen seeing a roadside bomb.
Just getting that instantfeeling in Desert Storm and
I don't think I've ever toldthe story publicly like this or
(16:45):
on a show that has the distributionthankfully to our listeners and
watchers, the Goodfellas has.
But before Desert Storm,
I was going to replace one of mysergeants as a platoon sergeant,
this was a great sergeant, great noncommissioned officer, name is Dean Torian.
(17:05):
We stay in contact all the time,we call each other every Christmas Eve and
he just wasn't ready to bea platoon sergeant in my view.
He's a great scout squad leader,and so I said, hey, Sergeant Rana,
I think I'm going to replace you here,but I want to give you an option.
Do you want to stay in the troop or
do you want to transfer to anothercavalry troop and get a fresh start?
(17:27):
He said, well, let me pray about it,I was kind of skeptical, Bill,
I'm like just tell me what you think,what your preference is?
And so he came back the next day andhe said, hey, sir, I prayed about it, now,
we had not yetbeen alerted to Desert Storm yet.
Our cavalry troop had not been,our regiment had not been and he said,
(17:47):
I prayed and three things came to me.
He said, the first is thatI should stay in the troop,
the second is that we are going to go towar and you will make the right decision
at the right time andas a result we will all come back alive.
And he said the third thing is a verseof the Bible and he cited the verse of
the Bible and he said he will makeseeing eyes blind and blind eyes see.
(18:09):
And then if you fast forward from that,
this was in the fall of1990 to February 26th,
1991, the day of the battle of 73 Easting.
It had rained all night, it was fog inthe morning, then it was blowing sand,
high winds, all of our helicopters weregrounded, visibility was very limited.
(18:29):
You couldn't see very far at allbecause of the sandstorm, and
then when we first made contactwith the enemy, we then assaulted.
We began to advance further to the east,and
my tank came over this imperceptible rise.
And I'm telling you, Bill, it's likethe curtain lifted, sandstorm ended and
the wind, our soldiers rememberthe wind having been in our face.
(18:54):
You're blowing the sound of our initialengagements away from the enemy,
maybe giving us more ofan element of surprise, but
then the wind was at our backsafter we crested this rise.
And so the next day, this February 27,Dean Torian came up to me in the desert in
Iraq, and he said, hey, I'm not goingto tell you what I told you in Bamberg,
Germany, which is where wewere before we deployed.
(19:15):
He said, I want you to tell me andI just got goosebumps,
I could give you tons of examples of this.
And then also, I think it's important whenyou're considering the war, going into
battle, which is an activity that involveskilling and the prospect of death.
(19:36):
That you consider the spiritualdimension of readiness and
the moral and ethical dimensionof preparation for combat.
Talk to your soldiers about whythe war is just, in this case,
evicting Iraq from Kuwait andgiving Kuwait back to the Kuwaitis.
Ending the brutalization of the Kuwaitipeople and the looting of that country,
(20:00):
because soldiers had these questions inmind, and I would go to every service.
I'm Catholic, but I went to the Catholicservice, the Protestant service, and
the Jewish service and soI could be there with all my soldiers.
The first, it's important they knowmaybe their commander's not a heathen,
maybe that gives them a leg up a littlebit and can allay their concerns.
(20:21):
But also, it's a great venue to talkto soldiers, and it would be often,
after these services, at night,in the middle of your perimeter,
in the middle of the desert,with the panoramic view of the stars.
And you're walking back to your tank withone of your soldiers, and your soldier
says to you, hey, I'm worried, I'm worriedabout whether it's the right thing for
(20:43):
me to kill enemy soldiers becausehe was a religious person.
And we're walking backfrom the service and
then I would have explained to himabout the justness of the war.
And then the same soldier, after wewere engaged in occupying southern Iraq
after the war,we're in the town of Anazer,
we're actually at Abraham's birthplace orof the Chaldees.
(21:05):
The same soldier came up to me and hesaid, and he saw the brutality that Iraq
had visited on their own people,right on the Shia population in the south,
the mass executions they wereconducting in the city near us.
And he said, you're right,it was just a fight, so anyway,
sorry to go on about it, but it'sa huge part of preparation for combat.
(21:29):
And I think because of our tradition ofseparation church and state and so forth,
we don't talk about it enough.
And I think it's important to,for commanders to make sure your
soldiers have access to religiousservices, and then of course, Bill,
it's really important to honor your dead,it's part of the grieving process.
Grief work is a command responsibility,just like prepare any other form of
(21:53):
preparation for combat andbeing responsible for the mental,
psychological, spiritualhealth of your troopers.
>> Bill Whalen (22:02):
One thing our viewers may not know about you,
HR when we introduce you as a presidentialNational Security Advisor, that means that
you're in charge of the NationalSecurity Council on the White House.
That's put you in very elite historicalcompany, our boss, Condoleezza Rice,
Colin Powell,Henry Kissinger and so forth.
But you were doing this whileyou were on active duty,
which is a rarity in Washington becauseCongress always wants to draw very
(22:24):
fine lines between military active andmilitary retired.
But you could have cycled back into thearmy after a year in the White House and
gone for a Fort Star, sowhy didn't you go for the fourth?
>> H.R. McMaster (22:34):
When I got the call to interview for the job as
National Security Advisor, I was planningto put in my request for retirement.
It seemed clear to me at the timethere wasn't a four star job for
me in the army orin the Joint Force at that point.
And when the call came outof the blue to interview for
(22:54):
the job as National Security Advisor,
I decided at that moment that Iwould retire out of that job.
I didn't want to even give the impressionthat I took the job to get a fourth star,
and so I stuck to that.
I was offered an opportunityto compete for
various four star jobs while I was inthe job as National Security Advisor.
(23:14):
I would hope that that was based on merit,but maybe it was some people want to get
me out of that job, too,that was that maybe that dynamic.
But I said, no, thanks, I appreciate it,I'm going to do this job as long as I can,
as long as I'm effective forPresident Trump.
And when I'm done, I'm at peace with thatand I'll retire from the army right now.
>> Bill Whalen (23:32):
Our viewers should know that the reason why you were just
absolutely overdressed forthis, I might point out,
is you were just giving a speech overat the Hoover Institution's Boot Camp.
This is something we do every summer,we bring in college age kids and
we call it a Policy Boot Camp.
And they hear from you andother Hoover figures and
kind of just get a taste of whatit's like to be Hoover fellow and
hopefully spark theirintellectual curiosity.
I went over to see you speak and then Iwas eavesdropping on some kids having
(23:55):
lunch afterwards and they said two things.
Number one, what a great speech, and thennumber two, they were kinda curious as
to your politics, they couldn't quitefigure out where you were on the spectrum.
So let me now ask the question I'dlook for you to artfully dodge,
which is really, what is your worldview?
HR we always want to be people inthe categories of left, right, center,
conservative, libertarian.
Where do you fall?
>> H.R. McMaster (24:17):
Well, you know, I think that I would say that from a foreign
policy perspective, that I am whatI would call an internationalist.
The people who are sort of part of theneo-isolationist movement would call me
a globalist, which is not the case.
I believe in prioritizingAmerican interests, but
I believe that the way toachieve the best outcomes for
(24:37):
Americans is through internationalcooperation, multinational cooperation.
I also believe in remaining engagedinternationally because problems or
challenges to our security and ourprosperity that develop abroad can only be
dealt with at an exorbitant costonce they reach our shores.
I believe that America cannotsolve the world's problems.
(25:00):
We can't conciliate the furies ofthe Middle east, but we can catalyze.
We can catalyze positive change bysupporting those who share our principles
and share our worldview, recognize thebenefits of representative government and
rule of law and fundamental rightsas those that are in the UN Charter,
(25:20):
but are really the basic rights offreedom of speech and religion and
assembly and so forth anddue process of law.
And so, I mean, that's kind of myapproach to it these days, Bill.
You know, everything's become sopartisan and vitriolic.
I try to transcend it, I don't knowif I'm succeeding, I hope I am.
(25:41):
But, you know, I'd never been a politicalperson in terms of partisan politics.
I mean, I recognize that waris an extension of politics,
it's a political competition.
There are politicalcompetitions we engage in.
So you can't, you can't forswear politics.
But I think in terms of partisan politics,it's gone too far.
Like, I, you know, Bill, I never voted.
(26:01):
You know, I, I followed the, the exampleof George Marshall in an effort to keep
that kind of bold line in place betweenpartisan politics and our military.
I've noticed with some dismay that, that,that both leaders in both political
parties, not all of them,some leaders of both political parties,
are trying to drag the military,you know, into.
(26:22):
Into political, into.
Into partisanship, you know, with thisnarrative, maybe from the far left,
that the military is extremist orfrom the far right, you know,
that the military is woke orthey're woke generals.
I mean, man, military is not extremist,military is not woke.
Keep the military out of,out of, you know, your kind of,
you know, your descent into the mudbecause our institution can't afford it.
(26:47):
And it's inimical to combat effectiveness,right?
And, and we have to recognize, you know,as senior officers, generals, you know,
even retired generals, that,that we owe our best advice.
Right?
But, butonce we cross the line to advocacy,
you risk getting mired in politics.
And by the way, foractive duty generals, say,
nobody elects generals oradmirals to make policy, right?
(27:08):
It's.
It's our civilian bosses that do that,who do that.
>> Bill Whalen (27:12):
So if we could put Second Lieutenant McMaster on this Zoom call and
I'd get out of the way,
and retired General McMaster couldtalk to Second Lieutenant McMaster
after you explained to him whatthe heck the Internet and Zoom are,
what would you tell that youngman coming out of West Point?
>> H.R. McMaster (27:27):
Yeah, I would, I would tell, you know, what I figured out,
I guess, over, over the years, which isdon't worry about getting your preferred
assignment, your preferred whatever and,you know, job.
This would be for anybody,because if you, if you apply yourself and
do your best, do the best job you can foryour soldiers, for your mission,
(27:48):
that everything will work out.
So.Bill, you know,
I always knew I wanted to be in the Army.
As I mentioned,I thought it was going to be out for
five years, it didn't work out that way.
You know, Katie, my, at my retirementkind of party, gave this Rose speech,
and she said, thank you for the bonus,29 years, you know, and, but
then, you know, I,I wanted to be commissioned in aviation.
(28:10):
You know, I had read a great,great book called Chicken Hawk about,
about Aero scouts in Vietnam.
I thought, man, I wanna do that,I wanna be an aero scout.
And so I was commissioned in aviation and,and, and so I was getting what I wanted.
But aviation had just become a branchagain in the army ever since that Sad Day
in 1947 when the, when the Army Air Corpsbecame the Air Force, you know,
(28:35):
and, and, and so, you know,I was on my way to Fort Rucker, Alabama.
But first I had to go to basic course,cuz the branch was not stood up yet
at Fort Knox, Kentucky.
So I'm an armor basic course,the last M60 A3 tank only course, right?
No Abrams in there.
And, and, you know, you know,tanks were fine, but
I wasn't really into themthat much at the time.
(28:57):
And they find astigmatism,my eye disqualify me from flight school.
They're like, hey,you're an armor officer now.
I called up and I said, hey, this isSecond Lieutenant McMaster, you know,
which always gets a warm reception at whatthey call Human Resources Command now.
[LAUGH] I say,I'd rather be an infantry officer.
That was my second choice.
Can I go to Fort Benning?
So they said, no, Lieutenant,it's not cost effective,
you're an armor officer now.
(29:18):
And so I said, well, then in that case,I'd like to give you my preferred
assignment because I'dlike to go to Germany.
And they said, hey, Lieutenant,thank you for that preference.
Fort Hood, Texas it is.
And so nothing worked out.
I went to Ranger school and then went to.
Then went to, As I mentioned, 166 armor,
the Iron Knights of the 2nd ArmoredDivision, the Hell on Wheels Division,
(29:42):
General Patton's old division, andthen General Ernest Harmonies.
Talk about a kickass commander,Ernest Harmon in In World War II.
And a great combined arms unitin the 2nd Armored Division.
Sadly, now, no, those colors are retirednow of the second Armor Division.
But I get there, I get this supportplatoon, that wasn't my preference.
(30:02):
So all these assignments,I mean, they never worked out.
I went to the 2nd Cav Regiment in Germany.
I'm like, okay,Border cavalry, Cavalry troop.
I can't wait to get to a cavalry troop.
I wound up regimental headquarters, youknow, as the force modernization officer.
I'm like, what is this?
You know, I'm not even, you know,doing anything operational.
I went to see the.
The regimental commander and.
(30:24):
And I said, hey,
there's nothing I'd rather do than commanda cavalry troop in this regiment, but
I'd rather command a shower and bathunit than do what I'm doing right now.
And he said, all right, McMaster,you know, you'll have a new job, you know,
next week,I'll reassign you as a plans officer.
Get the hell out of my office.
So I think you can advocate for yourself,
(30:45):
but really have confidencethat things will work out.
And I get these odd jobs in the Army,Bill, that were really great opportunities
to learn, to grow, to build teamsnot only within the military, but
multinational andcivilian military teams and so forth.
(31:05):
So, hey, I would just say what Iwould tell myself as a young me,
I would say, hey, don't worry about it,it's going to work out.
>> Bill Whalen (31:15):
Okay, so, HR,
I'd like to now spring on youthe Herbert Hoover questionnaire.
You ready?
>> H.R. McMaster (31:29):
Yep, I'm ready.
I'M ready.>> Bill Whalen: Okay,
question number one, hr.
What is the best sandwich?
This would be the non cheesesteak category>> H.R. McMaster: Well, I mean, of course,
cheese steak category's still a sandwich,cheese steak.
But I would say Dinic's.
Dinic's, which you can get atReading Terminal in Philadelphia.
Get the pork sandwich with broccoli,rabe, and provolone.
I'm telling you, it's killer.
Best sandwich in the world.
>> Bill Whalen (31:50):
What is the scariest animal?
>> H.R. McMaster (31:52):
The scariest animal?
I kind of.Anyhow, I grew up in Philadelphia.
I mean, I'm afraid of animals.
So, I mean, bear, lion, I mean, I don'tI don't like any of them, you know,
I'm a city guy.
If I'm armed, I'm not afraid of him.
But, you know, if I was, like,in the wilderness, maybe.
I guess.Crocodile.
Crocodile is pretty scary.
>> Bill Whalen (32:09):
That'd be my vote, too.
Who's your hero of fiction?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:13):
Hero of fiction.
Okay.
Well, I mean, Sam Damon in Once an Eagle.
How about that?
How about your favorite character, though,
in fiction would have to be Flashman.
And if anybody hasn't readthe Flashman series, you gotta read.
I mean, you'll cry, you'll justcry if you're laughing so hard.
>> Bill Whalen (32:34):
Favorite action movie?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:36):
Gosh. Favorite action movie?
Well, you know, war movies, maybe.
Does that include it?
Maybe A Bridge Too Far.
Bridge too far.
>> We, my friends,are the cavalry on the way to the rescue.
A bridge too far.
>> Bill Whalen (32:53):
Okay.
Apples or oranges?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:55):
Apples.
>> Bill Whalen (32:56):
Apples.
Why?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:58):
Well, because I just.
I like them better.
They're, you know, I like to.
Sometimes if you're, you know, witha little bit of peanut butter, as a snack.
It's a healthy snack,a little bit of protein, it's good.
>> Bill Whalen (33:08):
Fair enough.
Which talent that you currently donot possess that you most like?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:12):
I'd love to play musical instrument.
I'd love to be like Neil.
Maybe play the bass and just kind of chillin the back of a band playing the bass,
you know, or maybe, you know,if I could, you know, for.
Maybe play.
If I could just learn maybe howto play flashlight on the bass.
Maybe just do that.
That'd be great.
>> Bill Whalen (33:28):
A little pork pie hat, maybe.
Okay.
All right, you're an army man, butyou spend a lot of time in the air.
HR Window or aisle?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:38):
Aisle for sure.
>> Bill Whalen (33:40):
Why?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:41):
Because I. I gotta wander around just a little bit.
I just can't.
I can't sit for that long.
>> Bill Whalen (33:44):
Can't say for that long.
What's the longest flightyou've ever taken, Australia?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:48):
Well, yeah, probably to Australia or to Japan or.
You know, I used to go to.
To the Middle east from,you know, from everywhere.
Dubai, those 14.
Anything more than 14 hours is rough.
>> Bill Whalen (34:02):
I can imagine.
You're talking military aircraft?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:05):
Yeah, I've flown a lot on military aircraft.
And the key to that is if you're on a C17,you got to get a space on the floor.
Comfortable spot on the floor early.
>> Bill Whalen (34:13):
I was gonna ask, cuz there's no flatbed seats, right?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:15):
No, no.
But the floor of a C17 issurprisingly comfortable.
>> Bill Whalen (34:20):
Favorite smell or favorite aroma?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:22):
Gosh.
Gunpowder.
>> Bill Whalen (34:26):
Not the smell of napalm in the morning.
>> H.R. McMaster (34:28):
No, I mean the smell of your tank after.
You know, after.
After a series of engagements.
It's just.
I miss it.
I miss it.
>> Bill Whalen (34:35):
The most used app on your phone.
>> H.R. McMaster (34:38):
Most used app on my phone.
Let me think.
I guess, you know, maybe.
Probably.Navigation app.
Yeah, probably.
Navigation app.
>> Bill Whalen (34:47):
Okay.
>> H.R. McMaster (34:48):
I'm getting.
I'm losing my scouting ability becauseI'm over relying on technology.
>> Bill Whalen (34:52):
Cats or dogs?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:54):
Dogs.
>> Bill Whalen (34:55):
Dogs.
Why?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:56):
Well, obviously we've always had dogs.
And I'm allergic to cats.
>> Bill Whalen (35:02):
This is going to be a tough one.
You might need a minuteto think this one over.
You only get one song to listen to forthe rest of your life.
HR what is it?
>> H.R. McMaster (35:09):
Wow.
Wow.
One song.
What could it be?
Geez.
>> Bill Whalen (35:14):
I know it's tough because I know you have a lot of favorite artists,
but one track?
>> H.R. McMaster (35:17):
Yeah, yeah, one track.
>> Bill Whalen (35:19):
Gosh, kind of sounds hellish when you think about it.
>> H.R. McMaster (35:22):
It's like impossible to say.
Right?I mean, and so let me think.
What would it be?
I would say->> Bill Whalen: Well,
let's take this a different direction.
Let's say HR McMaster isa professional baseball player.
You're playing for the Phillies.
What is your walk up song?
Okay, walk up song, man.
Well, I think more of rugby,what I used to listen to to get ready for
(35:42):
rugby matches, you know, how about.
How about Thoroughgood,
Bad to the Bone or.
Or.
Or Nazareth, you know,Hair of the dog, you know, or.
Yeah, one of those.
One of those real.
One of the ones to get you fired up.
>> Bill Whalen (36:06):
Final question,
HR Describe the rest ofyour life in five words.
>> H.R. McMaster (36:10):
Okay, five words.
I.I hope learning.
Loving.
Gosh, you know, respecting, you know,other people's opinions and so forth.
Enjoying and friendship.
(36:35):
Comradeship.
>> Bill Whalen (36:36):
Yeah, we should expand that to 10.
Because you could have said family.
You could have said intellectual pursuit.
There are a lot of ways to play that.
>> H.R. McMaster (36:43):
Yeah, absolutely, that's why I was thinking of what I was saying.
Loving.Taking advantage of being with those
who you love.
Maxing it out.
>> Bill Whalen (36:50):
Okay.
Well done.
I hope that wasn't too painful for you.
>> H.R. McMaster (36:54):
No, I mean,
I really don't like talking aboutthe personal stuff, but hey, it was fun.
It was fun and the other guys did it,so I had to do it.
>> Bill Whalen (37:03):
HRE should know that one of the biggest demands we have from our
viewers is to have wives on the show.
And so Mrs. Cochran agreed to do the show,and so did lovely Mrs. Ferguson.
And it's now my honor to bring into Goodfellows, making her debut,
the lonely Katie McMaster.
Hello, Katie.
>> Speaker 3 (37:20):
Hey, Bill.
>> Bill Whalen (37:21):
So it's our chance to now drop a lot of dimes on hr.
So where shall we start?
>> Speaker 3 (37:26):
Well, where should we start?
>> Bill Whalen (37:28):
Let's start with him promising five years in the military and
then giving you an extra 29.
>> Speaker 3 (37:33):
Okay, so I met HR when we were out with some friends, and
I knew a little bit about the military,but not really.
And I was very intrigued withWest Point because I thought, my gosh,
those houses are gorgeous.
They're great.
And then I went to visit HR at West Point,and I'm thinking to myself, yeah,
I could live like this.
And HR said, you know, if we get married,we're never going to live in a house like
(37:55):
this because I'm gettingout in five years.
And so I'm like, okay, good, that's fair.
We're getting out.
I thought forsure I'd get him back to Orange County.
He was going to maybe go to law school.
He bought a suit and everything.
And then he went to a right arm night.
And his first sergeant.
Or maybe was it your first sergeant, HR?
>> H.R. McMaster (38:12):
It was my old first sergeant, motor sergeant and scout,
platoon sergeant, Ed Romo andJoe Zettlemoyer are those guys.
Sergeant Gonzalez, all those guys.
>> Speaker 3 (38:22):
So they said, you got to stay in.
So he comes home and he goes, well,you know, maybe I need to stay in.
I'm like, okay, let's stay in.
So I got.
How many more extra yearsthan the promised 5?
>> H.R. McMaster (38:32):
29.
>> Speaker 3 (38:33):
29 extra years.
Thank you.
>> Bill Whalen (38:35):
Love at first sight.
Yes, HR you better say yes.
>> H.R. McMaster (38:40):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> Bill Whalen (38:42):
Okay, now the question.
>> Speaker 3 (38:44):
In the way home, in the car, I told everyone I was gonna marry him.
>> Bill Whalen (38:47):
Whoa.
>> H.R. McMaster (38:48):
And I'll tell you, the night we met, we're exchanging addresses,
like in phone numbers, you know,because you wrote letters back then.
And the hooker on our rugby team,Bill Coyle, he comes up and goes, hey, H,
what are you doing?
You're never going to see thiswoman again in your life.
Sit it right in front of Katie.
>> Speaker 3 (39:05):
And I'm like, I can hear you.
>> H.R. McMaster (39:07):
We like to remind him of that.
>> Bill Whalen (39:09):
Now the question.
Katie, a lot of people probably wantto know, HR on the shaved head,
did he do it on his own?
Did he consult you?
Did he just spring it on you?
How did it happen and when did it happen?
>> Speaker 3 (39:18):
This is a typical HR story.
So HR did not want to wait inline to get his haircut, and
he also didn't want to put his head ina bowl like you would at a beauty salon.
So it was always crowdedat the barber shop.
So he said, just, I'm going to get someshavers or what, you know, a razor.
Just do my hair.
I'm like, I've never done it before,but clippers, clippers, clippers.
(39:39):
But, you know, how hard could it be?
And then one night, you know, after maybea glass of wine, he goes, let's do it.
And I'm like, okay, do it.
And there kept beingdivots in another divot.
And I was always correcting the divots.
And I said,why don't you just shave your head?
And he did.
And that's the Hair Club for Men started.
>> Bill Whalen (39:58):
I love it.
Tell us what it's like to bea military spouse, Katie.
I know a few spouses who've been armywives, Navy wives, Air Force lives.
But how.
How do you prepare for it?
>> Speaker 3 (40:12):
You know, I don't think you really prepare for it.
I do think, looking back on my time,it was an absolute honor, privilege.
And when you.
When you first kind ofcome in contact with.
With military, you're a bit takenback at the camaraderie and
the great friendships that you make.
(40:33):
And you pick up andmove every two years, but
you're always moving into anothercommunity where everyone's there.
And I think I realize it even more nowthat we're in a civilian life is I do
have great neighbors down in Newport, but
you just don't have that neighborlyfeel like you do in the military.
And everybody's on the same page.
All of the spouses are doing the samething, they're all working together.
(40:57):
There's competition normally, becausethat's human nature, but not really.
Not like I don't think itwould be in corporate America,
because I do think that we were fighting.
I'm not fighting, but we're kind ofgoing forward for a common goal.
I think I was most struck by howincredible it was when HR commanded for
(41:17):
Benning, when we would see everytwo weeks a graduation of basic,
basic training soldiers.
And it just.
You get just goose, goosebumps,all these young men and
women wanting to serve their country.
>> Bill Whalen (41:30):
Now, one thing our viewers should know that I love about Mrs.
McMaster is that she andI share a love for really bad television.
And I'm not going to call youa Real Housewife of Orange county, but
we know the channel and all that.
But can you get yourhusband to watch Bravo?
Can you get him to watch trash TV,or does he draw the line?
>> Speaker 3 (41:47):
No, he's very funny.
In fact, I have three daughters orwe have three daughters,
and whenever they fight,he blames it on reality television.
He's convinced that reality televisionmakes you fight with each other because
they all always are enragedabout something.
I don't think you'veever watched reality tv.
One time he did walk in on one of ourgirls watching the Shahs of Sunset,
(42:08):
and she knew he was gonna give her a hardtime if it was reality television.
So he said, what are you watching?
She says,a documentary on Persian Americans.
And he goes, okay.
>> Bill Whalen (42:19):
Well, let's push back with the funk music that he listens to.
Everybody has.
Everybody has an acquire test.
Was HR a good girl?
>> Speaker 3 (42:25):
Dad, he is a great girl.
Dad.He's a really girl's dad.
HR has been surrounded bywomen most of his life.
His sister, his mother, his aunts.
His father had four aunts.
He was always kind of the only guy.
And then payback is wehave five grandsons.
>> Bill Whalen (42:44):
I love that.
Tell us a bit about yourlife down in Orange County.
So I find one of the great artists.
Here's the man who served hiscountry on land for decades and
now he takes to the water.
>> Speaker 3 (42:53):
He does take to the water.
And I never thought I'd get HR backto Orange county, to be quite honest.
But he's very much embracing the life.
He is always in a rain spooner shorts andflip flops and paddleboard.
>> Bill Whalen (43:10):
But this is the good life.
This is California,the side doesn't get enough attention.
We focus on the negativesof California too much.
But if you can have a nice homein California, a nice place,
there's no better place to be.
But tell us a bit abouthow you guys are enjoying.
I'm not gonna call the golden agebecause you both are quite busy.
But without HR now in the service andbeing abroad,
how do you guys manage your time?
How much time do you get with family andhow much time do you get with each other?
>> Speaker 3 (43:33):
You know, HR works hard, but we do get a lot of time together.
And I think our biggest priority is beingwith our family, with our girls and
our grandchildren, our sons in law.
And then we're very fortunatehere in Orange County.
My family lives very close to.
And HR sister is always visiting.
So it's been mostlyspending time with family.
(43:53):
It's been very nice.
>> Bill Whalen (43:55):
Do you have any particular favorite Hoover fellows besides
your husband?
>> Speaker 3 (43:59):
Do I have something?
I love all the Hoover fellows.
I love Peter Robinson.
I like Neil and the grumpy economist.
I love Victor.
I like Bill.
>> Bill Whalen (44:10):
Thank you.
>> Speaker 3 (44:12):
I like them all, I love the Hoover family.
>> Bill Whalen (44:15):
Now, what say you to the idea of you and Mrs. Cochran and Mrs.
Ferguson taking over Goodfellows andjust making it.
>> Speaker 3 (44:20):
You know what?
I think that we could do a great job.
>> Bill Whalen (44:24):
How would you do it?
>> Speaker 3 (44:25):
We have to have another name.
Maybe the Housewives of Hoover.
>> Bill Whalen (44:30):
Real Housewives of Hoover.
>> Speaker 3 (44:31):
Real Housewives of Hoover.
>> Bill Whalen (44:33):
Why do I get the feeling that would be my last conversation with
Condoleezza Rice if I brought that up?
>> H.R. McMaster (44:39):
None of you are divas.
That's the problem.
You're not divas.
>> Speaker 3 (44:42):
We could Play 1 on TV though.
>> Bill Whalen (44:44):
Okay, HR this is your chance to say a few Kind words about your
lovely wife.
>> H.R. McMaster (44:48):
Okay, so, I mean, best day of my life was meeting Katie when I
was a first year orCEO senior at West Point,
met through some of my rugby teammates andmutual friends that we had.
And then, you know, Katie signed up for
this whole kind of crazy program we'vebeen on for those years in the military.
(45:10):
And what Katie didn't say,because she's too modest to say it,
is that she was a real anchor forour army communities wherever we went.
And she did a fantastic job kind ofbuilding a sense of family among family
members, whether it was in the platoonsthat I had the privilege of leading,
the cavalry troops that I commanded orsquadron or regiment or at Fort Benning.
(45:34):
And Katie is, is a,is a relentlessly positive person.
And every time we moved with ourdaughters, which can be tough,
like we're in, I think, our 23rd House or
something now that it wasn't about,can you believe we have to move again?
She was like, hey, how exciting.
We're going to Germany.
We're going to the Mojave Desert,at, at Fort Irwin, California,
(45:56):
you know, and, and sothat positive attitude was contagious for
military families andwith our daughters as well.
And of course,Katie had to bear the major burdens of
parenthood while I was gone forlong stretches of time.
I mean, I think, what,five and a half years or
(46:20):
so, Katie, between 2003 and2012.
But, but really what I'd like tohighlight and talk about is, you know,
we talked about, Bill, we're mentioningabout, like, memorials, services for
soldiers and grieving.
Katie did an amazing job at,at Fort Carson supporting those who had
suffered losses and, andunimaginable losses of their,
(46:43):
of their loved one, you know,their husband, their, their father.
And we unfortunately lost 63soldiers killed in action.
When I commended the 3rdCavalry Regiment for
every one of those families that were onbase, Katie went, formed a care team.
And then after the notification, whichoccurs when the, the casualty assistance
(47:07):
officer, the chaplain, and in thiscase our rear detachment commander,
makes the notification ofthe soldier's loss and,
and, and provide some initial comfort tothe family, then that family's left alone.
So what Katie did is with thiscare team is then, you know,
the family would be asked, hey,would you like somebody to
come help you with what we have to gothrough here and what happens next,
(47:30):
and making phone calls orwhatever they can do to be of assistance.
And Katie met every single oneof those of those families,
went to every memorial service andwas a real rock, you know, for our, for
our family members during our combattour of the 3rd Cab Regiment.
So, you know, of course,nobody trains people to do that.
(47:53):
There's no, you know, obviously there's,you know, it just depends on the person.
And Katie is an extraordinarily empatheticperson and, and, and was a great,
a great, you know, comfort to our,to our family members, but also,
you know, created,as I mentioned in any every assignment,
a real sense of community anda sense of the army family.
>> Bill Whalen (48:15):
That is very sweet.
HR Final question for the two of you.
So I've always thought, Katie, you'd begreat to hang out with because you and
I could just go down the sewer of realityTV together for a couple of hours.
But I've always thought HR would bethe perfect guy to go on a road trip with
because he's just so full of life and funand there wouldn't be anything black to
talk about, butthere would be run problem music.
There's only so much Grateful Dead.
(48:35):
I can take George Clinton.
How do you handle the music?
>> Speaker 3 (48:40):
Who's the other person, HR that you always have blaring here?
>> H.R. McMaster (48:43):
Gosh, I love, like Sean Mullins, maybe Sean Mullen.
Yes, Sean Mullins is great.
I mean, yeah, I mean, I dispatch,you know, I mean, I've got some pretty
wide ranging taste, butI could accommodate your taste, I think.
>> Speaker 3 (48:56):
Yeah. He likes rock.
>> H.R. McMaster (48:58):
Usually some classic rock is mixed.
>> Bill Whalen (49:00):
I know the word blaring.
>> Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah.
Sometimes it is blaring.
And I do have to remind him that,you know,
we don't have to havethe neighbors hear our music.
>> Bill Whalen (49:08):
I love that.
Well, Katie, thanks forcoming on Goodfellows.
I hope to see you in the near futureeither down south or up here at Stanford.
>> Speaker 3 (49:14):
Absolutely, Bill.
Thanks so much for having me.
>> Bill Whalen (49:16):
Okay.
And that's it for this solo episode ofGoodfellows with Lieutenant General and
Katie McMaster.
We hope you enjoyed it.
We'll be back soon with a newepisode of Goodfellows.
Until then, take care.
I mentioned General McMaster'sbooks in the beginning of the show.
Let me repeat them.
They are at war with ourselves.
That's his year of the Trump White Houseand Battlegrounds.
And of course,go to the Hoover Institution and
subscribe to his excellent battlegroundinterviews and his substack history.
(49:39):
We know,on behalf of the Hoover Institution, Lt.
Gen. H.R.
McMaster, all my colleagues here,we hope you enjoyed the show.
Till next time, take care.
Thanks again for watching.
[MUSIC]
Hi, this is Bill Whalen from Goodfellows.
The Hoover Institution is proud toannounce two national competitions
honoring the life and
work of Thomas Sowell, one of the mostinfluential public thinkers of our time.
For high school and college students,
the Thomas Sowell Essay contest isa chance to engage deeply with his ideas,
whether by applying them toa pressing issue in society or
by reflecting on how Dr. Sowell'swritings have shaped your own worldview.
(00:22):
For creators of all kinds, the MultimediaCreator competition invites bold,
thoughtful storytelling in videoform no longer than three minutes,
responding to a simple butpowerful question.
What lesson or teaching for Thomas Sowelldo Americans most need to learn or
remember today?
Each winner will receive $5,000 plusa paid trip to the Hoover Institution here
at Stanford University for a specialcelebration in Dr. Sowell's honor.
(00:45):
Details and submission linksare available at the following URL,
hoover.org/thomas-sowell-legacy.
Let me repeat that,hoover.org/thomas-sowell-legacy.
We hope to see you here atHoover in the near future.
(01:11):
Welcome back to Goodfellows, a HooverInstitution broadcast examining social,
economic, political andgeopolitical concerns.
I'm Bill Whalen.
I'm a Distinguished Policy Fellowhere at the Hoover Institution.
I'll be your moderator today.
This is a point where I usually introduceat least two or three of my colleagues,
but today it's just onegood fellow joining us, and
that is Lieutenant-General H.R. McMaster.
(01:31):
In case you're meeting the lieutenantgeneral for the first time,
a few things to know about him.
He is the Fawad Michel Ajahi Senior Fellowhere at the Hoover Institution.
He is of course, a former presidentialNational Security Advisor.
He is a best-selling author.
As I look over my bookcase,I have two of his most recent books.
One is called Out War with Ourselves.
This is about his one-year tour ofduty in the first Trump White House.
Before that, he wrote the excellent bookBattlegrounds, which is also the title
(01:53):
of a video series he does for the HooverInstitution, interviewing world leaders.
What else to say about Lt.
Gen. H.R. McMaster?
Devoted about 35 years of publicservice to his country and
if you follow Goodfellows,he is our resident and veteran optimist.
H.R., it's great to see you.
>> H.R. McMaster (02:09):
Hey Bill, great to be with you.
>> Bill Whalen (02:11):
So in quasi Japanese fashion, H.R. I thought we'd start
the show with a exchange of gifts orat least one gift for you, my friend.
Would you like to open it up andtake a look at it?
Because I think a part of you.
>> H.R. McMaster (02:21):
Very thoughtful of you.
I love it.
Go Go Eagles.
And.
And there's a cheesesteak on there,no doubt, from Della Sandros.
The best,the best cheesesteak in Philadelphia.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, man.
>> Bill Whalen (02:40):
It's a great gift because General McMaster lives and
dies by his beloved Philadelphia Eagles,football season is about to start.
And as his wife will attest whenshe joins us latest on the show,
it's kind of a pair of socks you can wearonce before she either throws them away or
puts them in the back.
But cheese steaks and eagles, Phil,what is it about cheesesteaks that is so
Philadelphia, HR?
>> H.R. McMaster (02:58):
HR hey, it's just, it's a great sandwich, you know,
I mean, and, and, and it is,it is very Philadelphia.
I mean, I, I don't know whatit is about it, but, you know,
people talk about like Genos and Pats,you know, they're across from each other.
And there's a whole ritual on howyou order at Pats in particular,
you have to say cheese with orcheese without.
(03:18):
And then with is with onions, withoutis without onions, or plain with and
plain without.
And if you don't order that way,you have to go to the back of the line,
you know, so.
But at Dalessandro's in my neighborhood,the Roxboro neighborhood,
the line is always around the corner.
I mean, it's so good and it's been sogood for, you know, for generations.
>> Bill Whalen (03:37):
You know, back in 2004,
HR was also the beginning of the endof John Kerry's presidential campaign.
They were taking him aroundthe upper Pennsylvania and Ohio and
Michigan trying to make himlook like a regular gu.
So he goes to one of the cheesesteakplaces and he gets in line and
comes to order.
He asks for one with Swiss cheese.
The whole place just comes to a stop andlooks at him at that point.
>> H.R. McMaster (03:59):
Too funny.
Too funny.
>> Bill Whalen (04:01):
So this is our third solo Goodfellows HR and
in the past two with John Cochran andSir Neil Ferguson.
I made it a point to ask them howthey came about, what they do now,
how John became an economist, how Neilbecame a, a very renowned historian.
And in their cases, it's the same story asHR because it's kind of roundabout juries.
John went to MIT and at firstdidn't want to become an economist.
(04:24):
He kind of gravitated into it.
Neil comes from a family of scientists, so
history was something hediscovered when he got into uni,
as they say in the UK but in your case,your story is different here.
I refer to your excellentsubstack called history.
We don't know.
And a post that you wroteabout Chuck Bednarik, who, for
those not familiar with Philadelphiasports, is a Philadelphia legend.
(04:46):
He was an iron man of the Eagles anda boyhood idol of HRS.
And you wrote this on the occasionof his 100th birthday.
Let me read this back to you.
Bernard pulled his Eagles championship andNFL hall of Fame rings off,
fingers mangled by multiple breaks,and pass them over to me.
Go ahead, try them on.
He said they, of course, did not fit.
He asked me what I wanted to do in life.
I told him that I wantedto go to West Point and
(05:07):
serve as an officer in the U.S. army.
He said something like,
you can accomplish whatever you want toaccomplish if you put your mind to it.
Now, HR my sister's oldest grandsonjust celebrated his 9th birthday.
He wants to be an NFL player.
He wants to be a baseball player.
He's in nine year old la la land.
But here you are.
You were nine years old,I think, when this happened, but
(05:27):
you had kind of your path planned out.
So how did this happen so early in life?
>> H.R. McMaster (05:32):
Yeah, I just, I always wanted to lead soldiers in, in the army.
I wanted to be part of something biggerthan myself and, and to be responsible for
building teams committed to an importantmission, you know, and, and
I was just always drawn to it.
I mean, my earliest memories were,you know, playing army with my friends,
you know, and, andorganizing them into a squad and,
(05:52):
and, and I just always wanted to do it.
And I, I think it had a lot to do withmy mom who, who, who sort of was just
was a tremendous teacher andwho got me interested in history.
And I read a lot of, you know,a lot of the youth biographies, you know,
about military biographies andadventurers and so forth.
And Frontiersman, one of my favorites,still one of my favorites today.
(06:16):
And I recommended his biography, the adultbiography, Don Higginbotham's biography.
And there's another also excellentbiography of Daniel Morgan and
American Frontiersman,
I think was the subtitle ofthe youth biography that I read.
And I just was alwaysdrawn to military service.
>> Bill Whalen (06:33):
So, HR you graduate from West Point in 1984.
Tell us about four years at West Point andhow your love for
history is incorporatedinto the other studies.
Because you just can't go toWest Point and major in history and
just do a liberal arts education, right?
>> H.R. McMaster (06:47):
Well, you can now.
You have to take a verystrong core curriculum that
exposed you to all sorts of otherother disciplines and courses.
But you couldn't major when I was there.
You had you could have a concentration,but everybody got a bachelor of science in
engineering, whether you wanted one ornot.
But I did take as manyhistory courses as I could.
(07:08):
I took a great diplomatic historycourse from one of my old
rugby coaches who became,you know, became one of my.
One of my mentors.
And, and this was then, you know,Major Betson, who, you know,
who then retires as a colonel.
Fantastic person and was my sponsor,my first sponsor at West Point,
(07:29):
who then left after two years.
And so, then Major Betson was my sponsor,was Cole Kingseed.
I just had dinner with him at West Point,got to reconnect with him.
He taught the world history course.
And then taught in the history departmentas a permanent professor when I came back
as a member of the rotating faculty,as a captain and
(07:51):
a major teaching history there.
But how can you not absorbthe history of West Point?
It's so connected to the foundingof our nation, to the revolution.
And then of course all the artifacts thatare there and there used to be this, this,
this poster that you would see it downin the history department area said,
you know, much of the history we teachwas, was made by the people we taught.
(08:12):
You know it would have, it would have youknow, MacArthur and Eisenhower patent and
so forth on it.
But yeah, soI was always interested in history.
My, my concentration was internationalrelations, but I took a lot of,
a lot of history courses.
>> Bill Whalen (08:27):
So you mentioned some mentors while you were at the point.
Tell us a few mentors duringyour climb through the ranks.
>> H.R. McMaster (08:33):
Well, I've got to mention my first battalion
commander, Billy J.
McGowan.
I wrote a little bit abouthim a few years ago and,
and, and he was an extraordinary person.
He was from a sharecropper family, was,was drawn to service himself, came into
our army and as an armor officer servedwith distinction in, in, in, in Vietnam.
(08:53):
And he was just a charismatic leader,larger than life person and
he really cared a lotabout junior officers.
You know, so you'd be you know,on a tank range or something and
then you just feel this bighand come over your shoulder.
And it was, it was,it was Colonel McGowan, you know,
how are you doing Lieutenant?
You know, and, and, and he gave me,you know, he gave me some,
some strange jobs for, fora brand new second lieutenant.
(09:14):
He allowed me to bethe support platoon leader.
I'll tell you Bill,I didn't know what a support platoon was.
You know, it's, it's of course criticalto the battalions mission because it's
all the fuel and ammunition and so forthand, and I was ready to be a tackle too.
I'm like what is this support?
It was the best,
it was the best leadership experience Icould have had as a new second lieutenant.
Got to know the whole battalion andthen, and then,
(09:35):
and then went on to a seriesof other jobs there.
But he was one of my first,you know, key mentors and another,
you know,was a guy named Tom Dials who was the,
he was the division cavalrysquadron commander and, and, and
he ran a division wide scout competitionswhen I was a scout platoon leader.
And I had these great sergeants, you know,
which is the key tosuccess in the military.
(09:56):
A lot of your mentorsreally are your sergeants.
And in this case, you know, I had, I hada great platoon sergeant named Ed Romo and
I had a scout section sergeant namedJoe Zettlemoyer who was just fantastic.
He was my senior scout.
And so we Won that division.
Competition like first, second,third sections were all 166 armor.
(10:20):
And so Tom Dials, the commander, he said,I want you to come to reforger with us,
the return of forces to Germany.
Big maneuver exercise in Germany.
So he, he,he brings my platoon over there.
I think he also grabbed mebecause I'm a rugby player and
they were going to playa rugby match over there.
So he's looking fora few ringers to bring in.
And, and then, andthen he gave us these great missions.
(10:40):
So I got really excited.
I was always excited about the army.
But, you know, I told Katie, my wife,when we got married, I said,
hey, I think I'm gonnaget out after five years.
You know, I want to do my,I want to do my duty for five years, and
then maybe I'll go to law school andthat sort of thing.
I came back from that reforger exercise.
I went to a right arm night at the, atthe officers club with my sergeants, and
(11:01):
they said, what the hell are youdoing getting out of the arm?
I mean, you, you love this stuff, right?
You should, you should stay in.
So I went home that night andsaid to Katie, how about standing?
She's like, fine, that sounds good to me.
So I returned my ticket thatI got to fly to Chicago.
I think I was gonna interview forProcter and Gamble or a big company or
something like that.
(11:22):
I bought a suit, Bill.
I bought a suit and everything, butI didn't want to not need it for a while.
>> Bill Whalen (11:28):
That's funny.
I looked up your various awards andcommendations, HR, my God, it's like
the opening scene in Patton where they godown his uniformity to show everything.
By my count, andyou can correct me if you'd like,
I count at least 12 military decorations.
Nine service med medals, plus a handful ofbadges, patches, and foreign decorations.
That's just a lot of hard work.
Congratulations.
It's my question, ghr, if you were to haveone of your grandchildren sit in your
(11:51):
lap and show them one of your medals orcommendations and use that as kind of
a window to what grandpa did forhis country, which medal would you pick?
>> H.R. McMaster (12:00):
Well, you know, of course, when,
when you're awarded these things, youthink that you're not deserving because,
you know,there are individual awards, but, but
it's always a collective effortin the army, you know, so.
So if I were to point to award,it wouldn't be because I received it.
It would because it would allow me totell a story about some fantastic and
courageous, extremely dedicatedsoldiers that I got to serve with.
(12:24):
And so maybe the one I would selectwas the one from Desert Storm and
tell the story about the Battle of73 Easting and how our cavalry troop
really achieved a lopsided victory againsta numerically superior enemy because of,
of the way we fought together as a team,and how we, we were bound together
(12:46):
by mutual trust, common purpose,but really affection, Bill.
I mean that, that cavalry troop, as anygood, really good military unit, it takes
on the qualities of a family and, and whatallows you to be courageous in battle.
And I think this was the case with our,our troop,
I know this was the case with our troop isyou're more fearful of letting your fellow
(13:08):
soldier down than youare of any enemy bullet.
So it's kind of that sense of honor andthe willingness to take risks and
sacrifice for one another.
>> Bill Whalen (13:18):
So you would show them your Silver Star?
>> H.R. McMaster (13:20):
That would be it, yeah, that would be it.
>> Bill Whalen (13:22):
Tell us a bit about what it's like to go into battle and
then recover from battle.
Thanks to Hollywood,
we have all these impressions aboutwhat it's like to prepare for war.
Sad scenes of men signing insurance formsif they're going to storm the beaches of
Normandy, people writing letters totheir loved ones, things to that effect.
But how do you prepare going into battleknowing that the next day might be your
(13:44):
last day?
>> H.R. McMaster (13:46):
Well, I,
I think part of it is you prepareyour whole career for it.
I mean, I, I wanted to, I begged myparents to go to a military high
school because I wanted to be in the,in the military, then went to West Point.
So I felt like I was preparing myself forthat moment.
You always ask that question, right?
I think, you know, young men and women whocome in the army, how I react, you know,
will I have what it takes?
You know, that kind of a,you know, thinking about war.
(14:09):
Because you read about it froma historical perspective and
other people's experiences andlearn about it that way as well.
So I read a lot of first hand accountsof combat, leadership in combat.
James McDonough's platoon leaderis fantastic by, by the way, for
Vietnam, Charles B.
McDonald's book on company commanderabout his World War II experience.
(14:32):
And so I try to prepare myself bylearning from the experiences of others.
And then when you say goodbyeto your family, I mean,
I just don't dwell in the negative.
I mean, andI think my family's like that too.
I mean it's not productive,I think, to engage in sort of,
you know, what could happen, for example.
(14:54):
And I think in combat,it's important for you to realize,
hey, not every bullet's got your name onit, so hopefully you'll be fortunate.
As, as Churchill said,
there is nothing more exhilaratingthan to be f shot at without effect.
And I've found that to be the case.
And really what happens in battle, youknow, and in terms of preparation for it,
(15:15):
you should know that you'regoing to do your duty.
I mean, I think, as forthe reason I mentioned already,
which is you don't want to let yourfellow troopers down, but also,
as a leader,you're kind of insulated from fear, Bill.
I can't remember,I don't recall feeling fear in combat.
(15:36):
And I think, I think that's becauseI was preoccupied with ensuring
that I made the right decisions,made timely decisions to ensure
that that art our troopers had the bestchance to overmatch the enemy and
to come out of combat actionswithout suffering casualties.
>> Bill Whalen (15:54):
How important is the role of faith in all of this?
>> H.R. McMaster (15:57):
It's extremely important, Bill.
There's the old saying,There's no atheist foxholes.
Hey, I think that is truly the case andBill, I have to tell you,
there are things that I can't explain thathave happened to me in combat, honestly.
And I think it's divine providence,I mean, maybe others could come
up with an explanation, but thereare certain things I just cannot explain.
(16:20):
I roll rolling down a street in Tafa orBaghdad and
feeling like a tap on my shoulder orsomething and it's saying,
stop, driver stop, scan the area andthen seeing a roadside bomb.
Just getting that instantfeeling in Desert Storm and
I don't think I've ever toldthe story publicly like this or
(16:45):
on a show that has the distributionthankfully to our listeners and
watchers, the Goodfellas has.
But before Desert Storm,
I was going to replace one of mysergeants as a platoon sergeant,
this was a great sergeant, great noncommissioned officer, name is Dean Torian.
(17:05):
We stay in contact all the time,we call each other every Christmas Eve and
he just wasn't ready to bea platoon sergeant in my view.
He's a great scout squad leader,and so I said, hey, Sergeant Rana,
I think I'm going to replace you here,but I want to give you an option.
Do you want to stay in the troop or
do you want to transfer to anothercavalry troop and get a fresh start?
(17:27):
He said, well, let me pray about it,I was kind of skeptical, Bill,
I'm like just tell me what you think,what your preference is?
And so he came back the next day andhe said, hey, sir, I prayed about it, now,
we had not yetbeen alerted to Desert Storm yet.
Our cavalry troop had not been,our regiment had not been and he said,
(17:47):
I prayed and three things came to me.
He said, the first is thatI should stay in the troop,
the second is that we are going to go towar and you will make the right decision
at the right time andas a result we will all come back alive.
And he said the third thing is a verseof the Bible and he cited the verse of
the Bible and he said he will makeseeing eyes blind and blind eyes see.
(18:09):
And then if you fast forward from that,
this was in the fall of1990 to February 26th,
1991, the day of the battle of 73 Easting.
It had rained all night, it was fog inthe morning, then it was blowing sand,
high winds, all of our helicopters weregrounded, visibility was very limited.
(18:29):
You couldn't see very far at allbecause of the sandstorm, and
then when we first made contactwith the enemy, we then assaulted.
We began to advance further to the east,and
my tank came over this imperceptible rise.
And I'm telling you, Bill, it's likethe curtain lifted, sandstorm ended and
the wind, our soldiers rememberthe wind having been in our face.
(18:54):
You're blowing the sound of our initialengagements away from the enemy,
maybe giving us more ofan element of surprise, but
then the wind was at our backsafter we crested this rise.
And so the next day, this February 27,Dean Torian came up to me in the desert in
Iraq, and he said, hey, I'm not goingto tell you what I told you in Bamberg,
Germany, which is where wewere before we deployed.
(19:15):
He said, I want you to tell me andI just got goosebumps,
I could give you tons of examples of this.
And then also, I think it's important whenyou're considering the war, going into
battle, which is an activity that involveskilling and the prospect of death.
(19:36):
That you consider the spiritualdimension of readiness and
the moral and ethical dimensionof preparation for combat.
Talk to your soldiers about whythe war is just, in this case,
evicting Iraq from Kuwait andgiving Kuwait back to the Kuwaitis.
Ending the brutalization of the Kuwaitipeople and the looting of that country,
(20:00):
because soldiers had these questions inmind, and I would go to every service.
I'm Catholic, but I went to the Catholicservice, the Protestant service, and
the Jewish service and soI could be there with all my soldiers.
The first, it's important they knowmaybe their commander's not a heathen,
maybe that gives them a leg up a littlebit and can allay their concerns.
(20:21):
But also, it's a great venue to talkto soldiers, and it would be often,
after these services, at night,in the middle of your perimeter,
in the middle of the desert,with the panoramic view of the stars.
And you're walking back to your tank withone of your soldiers, and your soldier
says to you, hey, I'm worried, I'm worriedabout whether it's the right thing for
(20:43):
me to kill enemy soldiers becausehe was a religious person.
And we're walking backfrom the service and
then I would have explained to himabout the justness of the war.
And then the same soldier, after wewere engaged in occupying southern Iraq
after the war,we're in the town of Anazer,
we're actually at Abraham's birthplace orof the Chaldees.
(21:05):
The same soldier came up to me and hesaid, and he saw the brutality that Iraq
had visited on their own people,right on the Shia population in the south,
the mass executions they wereconducting in the city near us.
And he said, you're right,it was just a fight, so anyway,
sorry to go on about it, but it'sa huge part of preparation for combat.
(21:29):
And I think because of our tradition ofseparation church and state and so forth,
we don't talk about it enough.
And I think it's important to,for commanders to make sure your
soldiers have access to religiousservices, and then of course, Bill,
it's really important to honor your dead,it's part of the grieving process.
Grief work is a command responsibility,just like prepare any other form of
(21:53):
preparation for combat andbeing responsible for the mental,
psychological, spiritualhealth of your troopers.
>> Bill Whalen (22:02):
One thing our viewers may not know about you,
HR when we introduce you as a presidentialNational Security Advisor, that means that
you're in charge of the NationalSecurity Council on the White House.
That's put you in very elite historicalcompany, our boss, Condoleezza Rice,
Colin Powell,Henry Kissinger and so forth.
But you were doing this whileyou were on active duty,
which is a rarity in Washington becauseCongress always wants to draw very
(22:24):
fine lines between military active andmilitary retired.
But you could have cycled back into thearmy after a year in the White House and
gone for a Fort Star, sowhy didn't you go for the fourth?
>> H.R. McMaster (22:34):
When I got the call to interview for the job as
National Security Advisor, I was planningto put in my request for retirement.
It seemed clear to me at the timethere wasn't a four star job for
me in the army orin the Joint Force at that point.
And when the call came outof the blue to interview for
(22:54):
the job as National Security Advisor,
I decided at that moment that Iwould retire out of that job.
I didn't want to even give the impressionthat I took the job to get a fourth star,
and so I stuck to that.
I was offered an opportunityto compete for
various four star jobs while I was inthe job as National Security Advisor.
(23:14):
I would hope that that was based on merit,but maybe it was some people want to get
me out of that job, too,that was that maybe that dynamic.
But I said, no, thanks, I appreciate it,I'm going to do this job as long as I can,
as long as I'm effective forPresident Trump.
And when I'm done, I'm at peace with thatand I'll retire from the army right now.
>> Bill Whalen (23:32):
Our viewers should know that the reason why you were just
absolutely overdressed forthis, I might point out,
is you were just giving a speech overat the Hoover Institution's Boot Camp.
This is something we do every summer,we bring in college age kids and
we call it a Policy Boot Camp.
And they hear from you andother Hoover figures and
kind of just get a taste of whatit's like to be Hoover fellow and
hopefully spark theirintellectual curiosity.
I went over to see you speak and then Iwas eavesdropping on some kids having
(23:55):
lunch afterwards and they said two things.
Number one, what a great speech, and thennumber two, they were kinda curious as
to your politics, they couldn't quitefigure out where you were on the spectrum.
So let me now ask the question I'dlook for you to artfully dodge,
which is really, what is your worldview?
HR we always want to be people inthe categories of left, right, center,
conservative, libertarian.
Where do you fall?
>> H.R. McMaster (24:17):
Well, you know, I think that I would say that from a foreign
policy perspective, that I am whatI would call an internationalist.
The people who are sort of part of theneo-isolationist movement would call me
a globalist, which is not the case.
I believe in prioritizingAmerican interests, but
I believe that the way toachieve the best outcomes for
(24:37):
Americans is through internationalcooperation, multinational cooperation.
I also believe in remaining engagedinternationally because problems or
challenges to our security and ourprosperity that develop abroad can only be
dealt with at an exorbitant costonce they reach our shores.
I believe that America cannotsolve the world's problems.
(25:00):
We can't conciliate the furies ofthe Middle east, but we can catalyze.
We can catalyze positive change bysupporting those who share our principles
and share our worldview, recognize thebenefits of representative government and
rule of law and fundamental rightsas those that are in the UN Charter,
(25:20):
but are really the basic rights offreedom of speech and religion and
assembly and so forth anddue process of law.
And so, I mean, that's kind of myapproach to it these days, Bill.
You know, everything's become sopartisan and vitriolic.
I try to transcend it, I don't knowif I'm succeeding, I hope I am.
(25:41):
But, you know, I'd never been a politicalperson in terms of partisan politics.
I mean, I recognize that waris an extension of politics,
it's a political competition.
There are politicalcompetitions we engage in.
So you can't, you can't forswear politics.
But I think in terms of partisan politics,it's gone too far.
Like, I, you know, Bill, I never voted.
(26:01):
You know, I, I followed the, the exampleof George Marshall in an effort to keep
that kind of bold line in place betweenpartisan politics and our military.
I've noticed with some dismay that, that,that both leaders in both political
parties, not all of them,some leaders of both political parties,
are trying to drag the military,you know, into.
(26:22):
Into political, into.
Into partisanship, you know, with thisnarrative, maybe from the far left,
that the military is extremist orfrom the far right, you know,
that the military is woke orthey're woke generals.
I mean, man, military is not extremist,military is not woke.
Keep the military out of,out of, you know, your kind of,
you know, your descent into the mudbecause our institution can't afford it.
(26:47):
And it's inimical to combat effectiveness,right?
And, and we have to recognize, you know,as senior officers, generals, you know,
even retired generals, that,that we owe our best advice.
Right?
But, butonce we cross the line to advocacy,
you risk getting mired in politics.
And by the way, foractive duty generals, say,
nobody elects generals oradmirals to make policy, right?
(27:08):
It's.
It's our civilian bosses that do that,who do that.
>> Bill Whalen (27:12):
So if we could put Second Lieutenant McMaster on this Zoom call and
I'd get out of the way,
and retired General McMaster couldtalk to Second Lieutenant McMaster
after you explained to him whatthe heck the Internet and Zoom are,
what would you tell that youngman coming out of West Point?
>> H.R. McMaster (27:27):
Yeah, I would, I would tell, you know, what I figured out,
I guess, over, over the years, which isdon't worry about getting your preferred
assignment, your preferred whatever and,you know, job.
This would be for anybody,because if you, if you apply yourself and
do your best, do the best job you can foryour soldiers, for your mission,
(27:48):
that everything will work out.
So.Bill, you know,
I always knew I wanted to be in the Army.
As I mentioned,I thought it was going to be out for
five years, it didn't work out that way.
You know, Katie, my, at my retirementkind of party, gave this Rose speech,
and she said, thank you for the bonus,29 years, you know, and, but
then, you know, I,I wanted to be commissioned in aviation.
(28:10):
You know, I had read a great,great book called Chicken Hawk about,
about Aero scouts in Vietnam.
I thought, man, I wanna do that,I wanna be an aero scout.
And so I was commissioned in aviation and,and, and so I was getting what I wanted.
But aviation had just become a branchagain in the army ever since that Sad Day
in 1947 when the, when the Army Air Corpsbecame the Air Force, you know,
(28:35):
and, and, and so, you know,I was on my way to Fort Rucker, Alabama.
But first I had to go to basic course,cuz the branch was not stood up yet
at Fort Knox, Kentucky.
So I'm an armor basic course,the last M60 A3 tank only course, right?
No Abrams in there.
And, and, you know, you know,tanks were fine, but
I wasn't really into themthat much at the time.
(28:57):
And they find astigmatism,my eye disqualify me from flight school.
They're like, hey,you're an armor officer now.
I called up and I said, hey, this isSecond Lieutenant McMaster, you know,
which always gets a warm reception at whatthey call Human Resources Command now.
[LAUGH] I say,I'd rather be an infantry officer.
That was my second choice.
Can I go to Fort Benning?
So they said, no, Lieutenant,it's not cost effective,
you're an armor officer now.
(29:18):
And so I said, well, then in that case,I'd like to give you my preferred
assignment because I'dlike to go to Germany.
And they said, hey, Lieutenant,thank you for that preference.
Fort Hood, Texas it is.
And so nothing worked out.
I went to Ranger school and then went to.
Then went to, As I mentioned, 166 armor,
the Iron Knights of the 2nd ArmoredDivision, the Hell on Wheels Division,
(29:42):
General Patton's old division, andthen General Ernest Harmonies.
Talk about a kickass commander,Ernest Harmon in In World War II.
And a great combined arms unitin the 2nd Armored Division.
Sadly, now, no, those colors are retirednow of the second Armor Division.
But I get there, I get this supportplatoon, that wasn't my preference.
(30:02):
So all these assignments,I mean, they never worked out.
I went to the 2nd Cav Regiment in Germany.
I'm like, okay,Border cavalry, Cavalry troop.
I can't wait to get to a cavalry troop.
I wound up regimental headquarters, youknow, as the force modernization officer.
I'm like, what is this?
You know, I'm not even, you know,doing anything operational.
I went to see the.
The regimental commander and.
(30:24):
And I said, hey,
there's nothing I'd rather do than commanda cavalry troop in this regiment, but
I'd rather command a shower and bathunit than do what I'm doing right now.
And he said, all right, McMaster,you know, you'll have a new job, you know,
next week,I'll reassign you as a plans officer.
Get the hell out of my office.
So I think you can advocate for yourself,
(30:45):
but really have confidencethat things will work out.
And I get these odd jobs in the Army,Bill, that were really great opportunities
to learn, to grow, to build teamsnot only within the military, but
multinational andcivilian military teams and so forth.
(31:05):
So, hey, I would just say what Iwould tell myself as a young me,
I would say, hey, don't worry about it,it's going to work out.
>> Bill Whalen (31:15):
Okay, so, HR,
I'd like to now spring on youthe Herbert Hoover questionnaire.
You ready?
>> H.R. McMaster (31:29):
Yep, I'm ready.
I'M ready.>> Bill Whalen: Okay,
question number one, hr.
What is the best sandwich?
This would be the non cheesesteak category>> H.R. McMaster: Well, I mean, of course,
cheese steak category's still a sandwich,cheese steak.
But I would say Dinic's.
Dinic's, which you can get atReading Terminal in Philadelphia.
Get the pork sandwich with broccoli,rabe, and provolone.
I'm telling you, it's killer.
Best sandwich in the world.
>> Bill Whalen (31:50):
What is the scariest animal?
>> H.R. McMaster (31:52):
The scariest animal?
I kind of.Anyhow, I grew up in Philadelphia.
I mean, I'm afraid of animals.
So, I mean, bear, lion, I mean, I don'tI don't like any of them, you know,
I'm a city guy.
If I'm armed, I'm not afraid of him.
But, you know, if I was, like,in the wilderness, maybe.
I guess.Crocodile.
Crocodile is pretty scary.
>> Bill Whalen (32:09):
That'd be my vote, too.
Who's your hero of fiction?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:13):
Hero of fiction.
Okay.
Well, I mean, Sam Damon in Once an Eagle.
How about that?
How about your favorite character, though,
in fiction would have to be Flashman.
And if anybody hasn't readthe Flashman series, you gotta read.
I mean, you'll cry, you'll justcry if you're laughing so hard.
>> Bill Whalen (32:34):
Favorite action movie?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:36):
Gosh. Favorite action movie?
Well, you know, war movies, maybe.
Does that include it?
Maybe A Bridge Too Far.
Bridge too far.
>> We, my friends,are the cavalry on the way to the rescue.
A bridge too far.
>> Bill Whalen (32:53):
Okay.
Apples or oranges?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:55):
Apples.
>> Bill Whalen (32:56):
Apples.
Why?
>> H.R. McMaster (32:58):
Well, because I just.
I like them better.
They're, you know, I like to.
Sometimes if you're, you know, witha little bit of peanut butter, as a snack.
It's a healthy snack,a little bit of protein, it's good.
>> Bill Whalen (33:08):
Fair enough.
Which talent that you currently donot possess that you most like?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:12):
I'd love to play musical instrument.
I'd love to be like Neil.
Maybe play the bass and just kind of chillin the back of a band playing the bass,
you know, or maybe, you know,if I could, you know, for.
Maybe play.
If I could just learn maybe howto play flashlight on the bass.
Maybe just do that.
That'd be great.
>> Bill Whalen (33:28):
A little pork pie hat, maybe.
Okay.
All right, you're an army man, butyou spend a lot of time in the air.
HR Window or aisle?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:38):
Aisle for sure.
>> Bill Whalen (33:40):
Why?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:41):
Because I. I gotta wander around just a little bit.
I just can't.
I can't sit for that long.
>> Bill Whalen (33:44):
Can't say for that long.
What's the longest flightyou've ever taken, Australia?
>> H.R. McMaster (33:48):
Well, yeah, probably to Australia or to Japan or.
You know, I used to go to.
To the Middle east from,you know, from everywhere.
Dubai, those 14.
Anything more than 14 hours is rough.
>> Bill Whalen (34:02):
I can imagine.
You're talking military aircraft?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:05):
Yeah, I've flown a lot on military aircraft.
And the key to that is if you're on a C17,you got to get a space on the floor.
Comfortable spot on the floor early.
>> Bill Whalen (34:13):
I was gonna ask, cuz there's no flatbed seats, right?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:15):
No, no.
But the floor of a C17 issurprisingly comfortable.
>> Bill Whalen (34:20):
Favorite smell or favorite aroma?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:22):
Gosh.
Gunpowder.
>> Bill Whalen (34:26):
Not the smell of napalm in the morning.
>> H.R. McMaster (34:28):
No, I mean the smell of your tank after.
You know, after.
After a series of engagements.
It's just.
I miss it.
I miss it.
>> Bill Whalen (34:35):
The most used app on your phone.
>> H.R. McMaster (34:38):
Most used app on my phone.
Let me think.
I guess, you know, maybe.
Probably.Navigation app.
Yeah, probably.
Navigation app.
>> Bill Whalen (34:47):
Okay.
>> H.R. McMaster (34:48):
I'm getting.
I'm losing my scouting ability becauseI'm over relying on technology.
>> Bill Whalen (34:52):
Cats or dogs?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:54):
Dogs.
>> Bill Whalen (34:55):
Dogs.
Why?
>> H.R. McMaster (34:56):
Well, obviously we've always had dogs.
And I'm allergic to cats.
>> Bill Whalen (35:02):
This is going to be a tough one.
You might need a minuteto think this one over.
You only get one song to listen to forthe rest of your life.
HR what is it?
>> H.R. McMaster (35:09):
Wow.
Wow.
One song.
What could it be?
Geez.
>> Bill Whalen (35:14):
I know it's tough because I know you have a lot of favorite artists,
but one track?
>> H.R. McMaster (35:17):
Yeah, yeah, one track.
>> Bill Whalen (35:19):
Gosh, kind of sounds hellish when you think about it.
>> H.R. McMaster (35:22):
It's like impossible to say.
Right?I mean, and so let me think.
What would it be?
I would say->> Bill Whalen: Well,
let's take this a different direction.
Let's say HR McMaster isa professional baseball player.
You're playing for the Phillies.
What is your walk up song?
Okay, walk up song, man.
Well, I think more of rugby,what I used to listen to to get ready for
(35:42):
rugby matches, you know, how about.
How about Thoroughgood,
Bad to the Bone or.
Or.
Or Nazareth, you know,Hair of the dog, you know, or.
Yeah, one of those.
One of those real.
One of the ones to get you fired up.
>> Bill Whalen (36:06):
Final question,
HR Describe the rest ofyour life in five words.
>> H.R. McMaster (36:10):
Okay, five words.
I.I hope learning.
Loving.
Gosh, you know, respecting, you know,other people's opinions and so forth.
Enjoying and friendship.
(36:35):
Comradeship.
>> Bill Whalen (36:36):
Yeah, we should expand that to 10.
Because you could have said family.
You could have said intellectual pursuit.
There are a lot of ways to play that.
>> H.R. McMaster (36:43):
Yeah, absolutely, that's why I was thinking of what I was saying.
Loving.Taking advantage of being with those
who you love.
Maxing it out.
>> Bill Whalen (36:50):
Okay.
Well done.
I hope that wasn't too painful for you.
>> H.R. McMaster (36:54):
No, I mean,
I really don't like talking aboutthe personal stuff, but hey, it was fun.
It was fun and the other guys did it,so I had to do it.
>> Bill Whalen (37:03):
HRE should know that one of the biggest demands we have from our
viewers is to have wives on the show.
And so Mrs. Cochran agreed to do the show,and so did lovely Mrs. Ferguson.
And it's now my honor to bring into Goodfellows, making her debut,
the lonely Katie McMaster.
Hello, Katie.
>> Speaker 3 (37:20):
Hey, Bill.
>> Bill Whalen (37:21):
So it's our chance to now drop a lot of dimes on hr.
So where shall we start?
>> Speaker 3 (37:26):
Well, where should we start?
>> Bill Whalen (37:28):
Let's start with him promising five years in the military and
then giving you an extra 29.
>> Speaker 3 (37:33):
Okay, so I met HR when we were out with some friends, and
I knew a little bit about the military,but not really.
And I was very intrigued withWest Point because I thought, my gosh,
those houses are gorgeous.
They're great.
And then I went to visit HR at West Point,and I'm thinking to myself, yeah,
I could live like this.
And HR said, you know, if we get married,we're never going to live in a house like
(37:55):
this because I'm gettingout in five years.
And so I'm like, okay, good, that's fair.
We're getting out.
I thought forsure I'd get him back to Orange County.
He was going to maybe go to law school.
He bought a suit and everything.
And then he went to a right arm night.
And his first sergeant.
Or maybe was it your first sergeant, HR?
>> H.R. McMaster (38:12):
It was my old first sergeant, motor sergeant and scout,
platoon sergeant, Ed Romo andJoe Zettlemoyer are those guys.
Sergeant Gonzalez, all those guys.
>> Speaker 3 (38:22):
So they said, you got to stay in.
So he comes home and he goes, well,you know, maybe I need to stay in.
I'm like, okay, let's stay in.
So I got.
How many more extra yearsthan the promised 5?
>> H.R. McMaster (38:32):
29.
>> Speaker 3 (38:33):
29 extra years.
Thank you.
>> Bill Whalen (38:35):
Love at first sight.
Yes, HR you better say yes.
>> H.R. McMaster (38:40):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> Bill Whalen (38:42):
Okay, now the question.
>> Speaker 3 (38:44):
In the way home, in the car, I told everyone I was gonna marry him.
>> Bill Whalen (38:47):
Whoa.
>> H.R. McMaster (38:48):
And I'll tell you, the night we met, we're exchanging addresses,
like in phone numbers, you know,because you wrote letters back then.
And the hooker on our rugby team,Bill Coyle, he comes up and goes, hey, H,
what are you doing?
You're never going to see thiswoman again in your life.
Sit it right in front of Katie.
>> Speaker 3 (39:05):
And I'm like, I can hear you.
>> H.R. McMaster (39:07):
We like to remind him of that.
>> Bill Whalen (39:09):
Now the question.
Katie, a lot of people probably wantto know, HR on the shaved head,
did he do it on his own?
Did he consult you?
Did he just spring it on you?
How did it happen and when did it happen?
>> Speaker 3 (39:18):
This is a typical HR story.
So HR did not want to wait inline to get his haircut, and
he also didn't want to put his head ina bowl like you would at a beauty salon.
So it was always crowdedat the barber shop.
So he said, just, I'm going to get someshavers or what, you know, a razor.
Just do my hair.
I'm like, I've never done it before,but clippers, clippers, clippers.
(39:39):
But, you know, how hard could it be?
And then one night, you know, after maybea glass of wine, he goes, let's do it.
And I'm like, okay, do it.
And there kept beingdivots in another divot.
And I was always correcting the divots.
And I said,why don't you just shave your head?
And he did.
And that's the Hair Club for Men started.
>> Bill Whalen (39:58):
I love it.
Tell us what it's like to bea military spouse, Katie.
I know a few spouses who've been armywives, Navy wives, Air Force lives.
But how.
How do you prepare for it?
>> Speaker 3 (40:12):
You know, I don't think you really prepare for it.
I do think, looking back on my time,it was an absolute honor, privilege.
And when you.
When you first kind ofcome in contact with.
With military, you're a bit takenback at the camaraderie and
the great friendships that you make.
(40:33):
And you pick up andmove every two years, but
you're always moving into anothercommunity where everyone's there.
And I think I realize it even more nowthat we're in a civilian life is I do
have great neighbors down in Newport, but
you just don't have that neighborlyfeel like you do in the military.
And everybody's on the same page.
All of the spouses are doing the samething, they're all working together.
(40:57):
There's competition normally, becausethat's human nature, but not really.
Not like I don't think itwould be in corporate America,
because I do think that we were fighting.
I'm not fighting, but we're kind ofgoing forward for a common goal.
I think I was most struck by howincredible it was when HR commanded for
(41:17):
Benning, when we would see everytwo weeks a graduation of basic,
basic training soldiers.
And it just.
You get just goose, goosebumps,all these young men and
women wanting to serve their country.
>> Bill Whalen (41:30):
Now, one thing our viewers should know that I love about Mrs.
McMaster is that she andI share a love for really bad television.
And I'm not going to call youa Real Housewife of Orange county, but
we know the channel and all that.
But can you get yourhusband to watch Bravo?
Can you get him to watch trash TV,or does he draw the line?
>> Speaker 3 (41:47):
No, he's very funny.
In fact, I have three daughters orwe have three daughters,
and whenever they fight,he blames it on reality television.
He's convinced that reality televisionmakes you fight with each other because
they all always are enragedabout something.
I don't think you'veever watched reality tv.
One time he did walk in on one of ourgirls watching the Shahs of Sunset,
(42:08):
and she knew he was gonna give her a hardtime if it was reality television.
So he said, what are you watching?
She says,a documentary on Persian Americans.
And he goes, okay.
>> Bill Whalen (42:19):
Well, let's push back with the funk music that he listens to.
Everybody has.
Everybody has an acquire test.
Was HR a good girl?
>> Speaker 3 (42:25):
Dad, he is a great girl.
Dad.He's a really girl's dad.
HR has been surrounded bywomen most of his life.
His sister, his mother, his aunts.
His father had four aunts.
He was always kind of the only guy.
And then payback is wehave five grandsons.
>> Bill Whalen (42:44):
I love that.
Tell us a bit about yourlife down in Orange County.
So I find one of the great artists.
Here's the man who served hiscountry on land for decades and
now he takes to the water.
>> Speaker 3 (42:53):
He does take to the water.
And I never thought I'd get HR backto Orange county, to be quite honest.
But he's very much embracing the life.
He is always in a rain spooner shorts andflip flops and paddleboard.
>> Bill Whalen (43:10):
But this is the good life.
This is California,the side doesn't get enough attention.
We focus on the negativesof California too much.
But if you can have a nice homein California, a nice place,
there's no better place to be.
But tell us a bit abouthow you guys are enjoying.
I'm not gonna call the golden agebecause you both are quite busy.
But without HR now in the service andbeing abroad,
how do you guys manage your time?
How much time do you get with family andhow much time do you get with each other?
>> Speaker 3 (43:33):
You know, HR works hard, but we do get a lot of time together.
And I think our biggest priority is beingwith our family, with our girls and
our grandchildren, our sons in law.
And then we're very fortunatehere in Orange County.
My family lives very close to.
And HR sister is always visiting.
So it's been mostlyspending time with family.
(43:53):
It's been very nice.
>> Bill Whalen (43:55):
Do you have any particular favorite Hoover fellows besides
your husband?
>> Speaker 3 (43:59):
Do I have something?
I love all the Hoover fellows.
I love Peter Robinson.
I like Neil and the grumpy economist.
I love Victor.
I like Bill.
>> Bill Whalen (44:10):
Thank you.
>> Speaker 3 (44:12):
I like them all, I love the Hoover family.
>> Bill Whalen (44:15):
Now, what say you to the idea of you and Mrs. Cochran and Mrs.
Ferguson taking over Goodfellows andjust making it.
>> Speaker 3 (44:20):
You know what?
I think that we could do a great job.
>> Bill Whalen (44:24):
How would you do it?
>> Speaker 3 (44:25):
We have to have another name.
Maybe the Housewives of Hoover.
>> Bill Whalen (44:30):
Real Housewives of Hoover.
>> Speaker 3 (44:31):
Real Housewives of Hoover.
>> Bill Whalen (44:33):
Why do I get the feeling that would be my last conversation with
Condoleezza Rice if I brought that up?
>> H.R. McMaster (44:39):
None of you are divas.
That's the problem.
You're not divas.
>> Speaker 3 (44:42):
We could Play 1 on TV though.
>> Bill Whalen (44:44):
Okay, HR this is your chance to say a few Kind words about your
lovely wife.
>> H.R. McMaster (44:48):
Okay, so, I mean, best day of my life was meeting Katie when I
was a first year orCEO senior at West Point,
met through some of my rugby teammates andmutual friends that we had.
And then, you know, Katie signed up for
this whole kind of crazy program we'vebeen on for those years in the military.
(45:10):
And what Katie didn't say,because she's too modest to say it,
is that she was a real anchor forour army communities wherever we went.
And she did a fantastic job kind ofbuilding a sense of family among family
members, whether it was in the platoonsthat I had the privilege of leading,
the cavalry troops that I commanded orsquadron or regiment or at Fort Benning.
(45:34):
And Katie is, is a,is a relentlessly positive person.
And every time we moved with ourdaughters, which can be tough,
like we're in, I think, our 23rd House or
something now that it wasn't about,can you believe we have to move again?
She was like, hey, how exciting.
We're going to Germany.
We're going to the Mojave Desert,at, at Fort Irwin, California,
(45:56):
you know, and, and sothat positive attitude was contagious for
military families andwith our daughters as well.
And of course,Katie had to bear the major burdens of
parenthood while I was gone forlong stretches of time.
I mean, I think, what,five and a half years or
(46:20):
so, Katie, between 2003 and2012.
But, but really what I'd like tohighlight and talk about is, you know,
we talked about, Bill, we're mentioningabout, like, memorials, services for
soldiers and grieving.
Katie did an amazing job at,at Fort Carson supporting those who had
suffered losses and, andunimaginable losses of their,
(46:43):
of their loved one, you know,their husband, their, their father.
And we unfortunately lost 63soldiers killed in action.
When I commended the 3rdCavalry Regiment for
every one of those families that were onbase, Katie went, formed a care team.
And then after the notification, whichoccurs when the, the casualty assistance
(47:07):
officer, the chaplain, and in thiscase our rear detachment commander,
makes the notification ofthe soldier's loss and,
and, and provide some initial comfort tothe family, then that family's left alone.
So what Katie did is with thiscare team is then, you know,
the family would be asked, hey,would you like somebody to
come help you with what we have to gothrough here and what happens next,
(47:30):
and making phone calls orwhatever they can do to be of assistance.
And Katie met every single oneof those of those families,
went to every memorial service andwas a real rock, you know, for our, for
our family members during our combattour of the 3rd Cab Regiment.
So, you know, of course,nobody trains people to do that.
(47:53):
There's no, you know, obviously there's,you know, it just depends on the person.
And Katie is an extraordinarily empatheticperson and, and, and was a great,
a great, you know, comfort to our,to our family members, but also,
you know, created,as I mentioned in any every assignment,
a real sense of community anda sense of the army family.
>> Bill Whalen (48:15):
That is very sweet.
HR Final question for the two of you.
So I've always thought, Katie, you'd begreat to hang out with because you and
I could just go down the sewer of realityTV together for a couple of hours.
But I've always thought HR would bethe perfect guy to go on a road trip with
because he's just so full of life and funand there wouldn't be anything black to
talk about, butthere would be run problem music.
There's only so much Grateful Dead.
(48:35):
I can take George Clinton.
How do you handle the music?
>> Speaker 3 (48:40):
Who's the other person, HR that you always have blaring here?
>> H.R. McMaster (48:43):
Gosh, I love, like Sean Mullins, maybe Sean Mullen.
Yes, Sean Mullins is great.
I mean, yeah, I mean, I dispatch,you know, I mean, I've got some pretty
wide ranging taste, butI could accommodate your taste, I think.
>> Speaker 3 (48:56):
Yeah. He likes rock.
>> H.R. McMaster (48:58):
Usually some classic rock is mixed.
>> Bill Whalen (49:00):
I know the word blaring.
>> Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah.
Sometimes it is blaring.
And I do have to remind him that,you know,
we don't have to havethe neighbors hear our music.
>> Bill Whalen (49:08):
I love that.
Well, Katie, thanks forcoming on Goodfellows.
I hope to see you in the near futureeither down south or up here at Stanford.
>> Speaker 3 (49:14):
Absolutely, Bill.
Thanks so much for having me.
>> Bill Whalen (49:16):
Okay.
And that's it for this solo episode ofGoodfellows with Lieutenant General and
Katie McMaster.
We hope you enjoyed it.
We'll be back soon with a newepisode of Goodfellows.
Until then, take care.
I mentioned General McMaster'sbooks in the beginning of the show.
Let me repeat them.
They are at war with ourselves.
That's his year of the Trump White Houseand Battlegrounds.
And of course,go to the Hoover Institution and
subscribe to his excellent battlegroundinterviews and his substack history.
(49:39):
We know,on behalf of the Hoover Institution, Lt.
Gen. H.R.
McMaster, all my colleagues here,we hope you enjoyed the show.
Till next time, take care.
Thanks again for watching.
[MUSIC]
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