August 14, 2024 • 46 mins
When we search for our meaning in life, it usually centers around purpose. Why we're here and what we're meant to do. For young people in high school and college, this is especially true. What it is and how teens and college students can cultivate purpose is the topic of my conversation with Kendall Cotton Bronk, a developmental scientist and professor of psychology at Claremont Graduate University. Kendall and her colleagues have done extensive research on positive youth development and the moral growth of young people, with a lens focused on character strengths like humility, gratitude, hope, and patience.
In this episode we cover:
- Definition of purpose and why it matters to us
- Cultivating purpose through exploration and discovery
- Effective techniques identified through research
- The roles of reflection, gratitude and patience
- How adults can support and guide the process
For purpose research and purpose tools, visit the Adolescent Moral Development Lab website
Online interview that cultivates purpose, use this link
For brief articles discussing purpose development visit this link and this link.
Before you go: Rate & review my podcast. It helps me reach more parents and teens, seeking relevant youth-specific health and wellness information.
To connect with Leslie:
Website: leslierosecoaching.com for more teen health and wellness info and coaching programs.
Instagram: @Leslierosecoaching - DM with comments, questions or guest requests.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:08):
Get started on today's episode. Hey there, I have a great episode for you today
because I'm joined by Kendall Cotton-Bronk.
Kendall Cotton-Bronk is the principal investigator for the Adolescent Moral
Development Lab and a professor of psychology in the Division of Behavioral
and Social Sciences at the Claremont Graduate University.
(01:29):
What's really cool about Kendall is that she's a developmental scientist studying
and promoting positive youth development and the moral growth of young people.
But more specifically, she is studying character strengths, including humility,
gratitude, hope, and patience.
And she has most commonly investigated young people's purpose in life.
(01:52):
And that's what we're talking about today and why I'm so happy to have her on the episode.
So her research has explored the relationship between purpose and healthy growth
and the ways young people discover purpose and the developmental trajectory
of youth with strong commitments to various purposes in life.
And so you'll hear all about that today. And she focuses on two primary questions around purpose.
(02:15):
First is what does purpose look like among diverse groups of youth, of young people?
And then second is her focus on creating and testing strategies for fostering purpose among youth.
So the resulting purpose fostering tools that she's developed in in collaboration
with others, have been shared with thousands of youth across the country.
(02:37):
And in fact, spoiler alert, she has some new projects in the works that could
further expand her purpose tools.
So you just might see them showing up at a school or a program near you.
So just to let you know. But in the meantime, she has a lot of great tools and
resources, which I will share in the show description.
So let's get started and start diving into purpose, this, what it means,
(03:02):
how you can cultivate it, and just how to get started and what resources and
tools are available for you.
Kendall, it's great to have you on the podcast today because I think the topic
of purpose is very relevant for anyone, but especially for teens and emerging adults,
which is where you specialize your work studying and promoting positive youth
(03:25):
development and the moral growth of young people.
And a lot of that involves purpose.
So as part of what you teach, and I believe you teach at Claremont Graduate
University, when you teach a class on purpose, how do you first describe it to your students?
Yeah, well, let me start by saying thank you for having me, Leslie.
(03:47):
I'm really excited to be here.
I'm really grateful for opportunities to share the research that I feel very
fortunate to get to work on with people who can actually put it into action.
So thanks for this opportunity.
So I do teach a class on purpose.
And yeah, that's exactly right. Where we start is what is a purpose?
(04:09):
What does it mean to lead a life of purpose?
And I think that we all have an idea of what that means, because this is something
that we talk about in our daily lives.
But when we want to study purpose from a scientific perspective,
we have to have a definition that we all kind of agree on and one that we can
operationalize in scientific studies.
(04:31):
So the way that we think about it is a purpose in life.
It's this long term intention to contribute in a really personally meaningful
way to the world beyond oneself.
And in that way, a purpose, it's kind of like a compass. It serves this orienting
purpose where it kind of helps us keep moving in a direction that really matters
(04:54):
to us, that we really care about.
And as we make decisions on a daily basis, often this larger purpose is kind
of running in the background and helping us think about the decisions that we want to make.
So I tend to think about sort of three components of this definition of purpose
being really important. The first is that a purpose in life is it's sort of goal oriented.
(05:17):
It's not exactly the same thing as a goal because a purpose in life,
unlike a goal, may never be fully achievable.
It might not be something that that it's, you know, one day we wake up and we're done.
On the other hand, it is something towards which we can make progress.
So I think this goal sort of oriented towards a goal, that's really the first
(05:39):
part of the definition that is important to keep in mind.
The second part is that it's not just any sort of goal-oriented activity.
It's a goal-oriented activity that really matters to us. It's really personally meaningful.
In fact, it matters so much that we are willing to dedicate our time,
our effort, and our resources to making progress toward it.
(06:03):
That's the second part. And then the third part of that definition is that it
is a meaningful goal that's inspired, at least in part, by a desire to contribute
to the world beyond ourselves.
So we have lots of meaningful goals, but this is one that really allows us to
contribute to the broader world in a personally significant way.
(06:23):
And based on this definition, we find that young people today find purpose in
all kinds of activities, doing things like caring for their families,
through pursuing careers that enable them to make a personally meaningful difference
in the broader world, through creating new forms of art, music,
whatever it is that is new and different, through supporting social and political
(06:49):
change, through following the tenets of their religious beliefs.
A lot of young people find purpose in working really hard to support or to clean up the environment.
So all of these are kinds of activities that we may never be able to fully achieve.
I'm not sure you'll ever wake up one day and say, we're done.
The environment's great.
But we could definitely make progress toward it. Yeah. So with purpose,
(07:13):
it really is kind of boundless that there's all different levels, all different types.
You can have, I would imagine, or I pretty much know, but you have multiple
forms of purpose throughout your life or even at a single time,
right? Yeah, that's right. Right. That's right.
We don't just have one purpose in life. We have multiple purposes.
(07:33):
We've never really been able to determine exactly how many purposes people can have.
I would imagine there's some limits because a purpose is so meaningful.
Like I said, you're really actively engaged in working toward it.
And it really does orient and guide your sort of daily decisions and activities.
So, you know, you couldn't have too many different things you we're trying to
(07:55):
accomplish. There's just only so many hours in the day.
But we do find that most people tend to have more than one purpose.
And although these purposes endure over time, they do tend to wax and wane and
evolve over the course of your life as well.
So as adults, we might find purpose in raising children to be really happy,
(08:17):
healthy, well-adjusted, good contributing citizens.
Someday those children grow up, they leave home. And although we may not cease
to be parents, the role changes, right?
It just doesn't require as much time. And we may choose to reinvest in work-related purposes.
When older adults retire, right, if they had found a lot of purpose in their
work, they may choose to reinvest in community service-oriented purposes.
(08:41):
So they do tend to change over the course of our lives or at least evolve.
Yeah. And so when, you know, you're a young person having that purpose.
And as you're saying, you know, we have a purpose that tends to be,
there tends to be like a core purpose
or a core focus, something that is a pretty large part of your life.
So whether it is, you know, a parent and family or in raising those children,
(09:04):
or it's someone in their, you know, community and doing things specifically
for the community, or as you mentioned, like social,
political, there's all sorts of different types, but we We tend to have something
that we're passionate about,
something that we want to contribute to the world around us and that we, it's goal oriented.
Like we want to get somewhere. We want to achieve something in some way.
(09:26):
And for young people, I find that, you know, there can be a phase in their adolescent
years and kind of moving into college years or young adult years where they
start to feel like, I don't know,
anchorless and maybe that they don't have a purpose and they're trying to search
(09:47):
for it and trying to figure it out and they're not really sure.
And it can be kind of discouraging and a little upsetting.
Like, I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know where my value is.
How do they go about finding that?
Like, what are you discovering as you research this and you work on it?
Yeah, no, I think that's really right. There was a pretty recent,
(10:08):
just a few years back, a poll, a nationwide poll that the Gallup organization
conducted along with researchers at Bates College.
And they were asking young people, how important is it for you to sort of figure
out what matters most to you, your purpose?
And four out of five young people said, this is either very or extremely important to me.
So we know this is something that young people want. They want to know how they
(10:33):
fit in. They want to know how they can contribute, how they can leave their mark.
And yet we also know that most young people, it can be tough to figure this out.
It's not always something that young people figure out on their own.
So I think there's a really important, and I think the research backs this up, reflective component.
I feel like young people are pretty scheduled these days.
(10:56):
They have a lot going on and they're running from activity to activity.
And there's not a lot of time built in to really step back and reflect on,
what do I think about this activity?
How does this activity allow me to contribute in personally meaningful ways?
And what is, what do I want to, you know, how do I want to use my skills and
my talents to make a positive difference in the world around me?
(11:18):
So I think that we need to build in more opportunities for young people to reflect.
And I think the other thing is that we tend to think of when you ask young people,
what is your purpose in life?
How are you going to figure this out? They sort of picture some person sitting
on a rock out in the middle of nowhere meditating and just a lightning bolt.
(11:40):
It sort of hits them over the head.
And the truth is that's not usually the way it happens.
It's kind of a more gradual process. In fact, our research suggests that you
can really cultivate a purpose in your life by taking some sort of intentional steps.
And so, like I said, this reflection is key, but it doesn't mean that you have to always do it alone.
(12:02):
We started this research on purpose years ago.
And one of the things we did is we conducted surveys nationwide,
surveyed like a thousand young people.
We just randomly selected a hundred of those young people to interview them.
And the interviews lasted about an hour.
We asked young people, you know, what matters most to you? What are you trying
(12:23):
to accomplish in your life? And why?
Why do you care about this? And how are you going to go about it?
We really sort of dug into to those issues.
And at the end of the interviews, we were surprised because young people,
they all sort of said the same thing, which is, oh my gosh, nobody asks me this.
And I said some good stuff in that interview. Can I get a hold of the interview transcript?
(12:45):
Or they knew we were recording it, the recording.
And that made us wonder, is it possible that this interview was kind of an unintentional intervention?
And as luck would have it, we had already planned to do surveys again, several months later.
So we did. We looked at the young people who participated in the interviews and those who did not.
Actually, I should say my colleague, Matthew Joseph, did at Duquesne University.
(13:09):
And he found that, lo and behold, those young people who had participated in
this one-time interview about the things that matter most to them had higher
purpose scores, meaning they had a stronger sense of purpose in their lives at time two.
So again, I think that that hour was an opportunity for them to reflect and
really step back and think about what am I good at?
(13:32):
What do I really care about? And how am I going to leave my mark?
And they didn't do it on their own. They did it with another person.
So in my lab, we took this interview and we tried to turn it into a sort of
an online toolkit. It actually worked pretty well.
So I could tell you a little bit about some of these activities that we have
found actually do help young people figure out how it is that they want to leave their mark.
(14:00):
So one of the activities that we have come up with, well, I should say too,
this interview is posted online and there are some guides to how to conduct this interview.
So if you are a young person who's going to be going on a long road trip with
an adult who you know and trust, maybe the person can interview you and you
(14:20):
can sort of go through this series of questions and see if it does help.
Yeah. Summer's a perfect time. That's awesome. Right? I know. Yeah.
But so I can include this. Maybe we can put it in the show notes or something. Yes, absolutely.
Great. Because that interview is available and there are some guidelines as
to sort of how to conduct it.
But short of that, one of the activities that we tried that I think worked pretty
(14:43):
well is to have young people send an email to five adults who know them really well.
This could be a coach. It could be a teacher. It could be a mentor.
It could be an extended family member, just someone who knows them really well.
And in this email, you ask the adults, can you, in just five minutes or less,
answer these three questions about me?
(15:05):
And the questions are, number one, what do you think I am really good at?
Number two, what do you think I really enjoy doing?
And number three, how do you think I'm going to leave my mark.
And the idea is that the feedback that young people get in the form of these emails,
it can be really eye-opening because sometimes young people will see patterns
(15:29):
and trends across like, gosh, all five of these people have really noted that
I'm good with kids, or I really have an opportunity to do some things with my math skills,
or, you know, they've recognized that I care about this issue of,
you know, whatever it is, voting rights or equity or, you know,
or whatever it is that matters to you.
And sometimes that can be eye-opening. Absolutely. And if I can just interject,
(15:53):
I mean, I did this several years ago, a very similar exercise.
And so if any young person listening today is resistant or if a parent is listening
and they think their child's going to resist, I have to tell you,
it was very enlightening.
And it was really cool to see other people's perceptions and the feedback that I received.
(16:13):
And everyone was delighted to participate. So if someone is thinking,
oh, no one's going to want to do that or this is embarrassing or something like
that, it really isn't. Like people were excited to provide feedback.
They were kind. They were thoughtful. I mean, some of the responses,
they put so much thought into it.
It was really awesome. So I have to say this is a great method and it really
(16:36):
does, at least for me, it really did help with identifying some things that
I was working on and understanding more of like, okay, is this my purpose?
Is this the direction I should be going in?
So just wanted to kind of give that plug without even, you know,
no connection to what you've done.
It just, I happened to do it. I came across something else very similar and
(16:58):
it was, it worked great. Right. Yeah.
I feel like, I mean, we have these in organizational settings,
360 degree reviews and things like that.
So as adults, you're right. We're a little more accustomed to this.
And so if a young person asks for feedback, it doesn't seem so totally out of the blue.
And I think you're right. I've been asked for feedback and it's kind of feels like an honor.
(17:19):
Like, wow, this young person cares about my opinion.
So yeah, it does can make the young person feel a little bit vulnerable.
But I think in the end, it's really helpful, the feedback that they get.
And it tends to really sort of strengthen those social bonds.
It tends to be a pretty positive experience.
The only potential drawback, I will say, is, and I think this is an opportunity
(17:40):
where parents can jump in, is if nobody gets back to them.
We haven't had that happen often. But.
But I think it's important for the role that parents or mentors or others can
play is to just sort of help the young person identify the right people,
people who will, and vast majority of people will respond.
So that's unlikely. But as long as you get that feedback, it tends to be really clarifying.
(18:03):
Yeah. Have you found like if asking those people in advance,
like saying, you know, I'd like to get your feedback, are you open to that?
And if they say yes, then sending them the questions?
That's a great idea. We actually haven't tried that. We just tried it,
but we did have parents review the list and then we didn't run into any trouble.
When we did a little pre-test and we had one student who only got one response
(18:25):
and was a little demoralized and we thought, oh no, we want to avoid that. That was not the goal.
We realized, let's just have the parents take a look.
I do think you can say in this email,
no need to spend more than five minutes on this because I think that the reason
and adults don't get back isn't because they don't love this young person and
really want to help, but they get almost overwhelmed feeling like,
(18:48):
oh my gosh, I want to give just the right feedback and I want to say it just right.
And before they know it, a week has passed and the young person's on to the
next. Well, which is why I love the three questions because you're not overwhelming them.
It's just three simple questions and they can do one or two sentences that they
want or they can do paragraphs.
That's up to them. But yeah, I agree that you don't want to intimidate or overwhelm
(19:08):
someone because yeah, we're all busy and it happens, but not to feel bad about
it because exactly for those reasons, their intentions may be good.
Right. Yeah. And I think I did a follow-up with a few people who were slow to
respond and then they were like, oh my gosh.
Exactly. Exactly. And if you are courageous enough to follow up,
they will generally get right back to you. Yeah. Yeah. Great.
(19:32):
Okay. So yeah, you were talking about that whole process and the online toolkit
and taking that time to really, you know, like maybe taking an hour, which is great.
I, that's what I love about what you said is that it kind of light bulb for
me. I'm like, gosh, it's only an hour.
You know, of course, if you want to continue working on it and that sort of
thing, but, but realizing it doesn't have to take a ton of time,
(19:54):
but just the act of talking about it with someone, getting feedback,
helping them or them helping you fine tune where your strengths are and where
your abilities are and your passions and things like that, and then start to
form, okay, what, what could that look like for me?
Yeah. Yeah. We have a study going on right now, a longitudinal study where we've
(20:16):
been following a sample of young people across high school and now into college.
And so every year we check in with them for one hour and we conduct this interview
and we talk about, you know, what matters most and what's changed.
And we've been amazed at, you know, the students. We said we're not sure.
We weren't sure if we were going to get funding to keep going.
And they said, oh, gosh, we want to keep going.
(20:38):
This has been so helpful. And we thought, you know, we should write about that
because the idea is it's just an hour. I mean, an hour a year.
I think that if you can do more and more frequently, I think of the development of purpose is a process.
And so if you don't have a full hour, even if you have 10 minutes six times
over the course of six months to check in and have a quick conversation on this
(21:02):
topic, you're just sort of helping the young person think about it and reflect on it.
And one of the things we notice is that you have these conversations,
but the thought process goes on after the conversation ends.
So if you have more frequent conversations, even if they're briefer,
there's still that reflective process that follows each of those conversations.
(21:24):
So yeah, no, I agree. It doesn't, we're not talking about hours and hours and hours of time.
More consistent time is what is needed. Well, and, you know,
those that time between high school and college, so much transition,
so much change that, you know, you could get kind of lost.
(21:44):
And so being able to anchor into something and find that purpose.
And I mean, just think about just the act of going to college.
You're trying to figure out what am I going to do in my future?
What major am I going to study in? Where do I want my career to be?
Where do I want to go in life?
There's so many questions that are happening. And for some students, that's hard.
And they, you know, trial different courses and maybe start a major and then
(22:08):
change it and go into another one.
And for other students, it's, you know, they find their purpose and they just go for it.
They're often ready. It's different, I would imagine, for everyone.
And even if you're not going to college, there's still that process going on.
Yeah, I think that developing a purpose in life is a developmental process,
and it tends to really go hand in hand with the development of identity.
(22:30):
So as we're asking ourselves these questions, you know, who am I and who do I want to become?
Those questions are really sort of inextricably tied up with the purpose questions,
which are, you know, what do I want to accomplish in my life?
And young people, just like you don't figure out who you are and who you want
to become in one moment, it happens
over time and through reflection and conversation with other people.
(22:53):
I think purpose development is sort of similar. It doesn't happen typically
in one moment, but instead over time, it's a process.
And the truth is even our research even suggests that young people who have
a strong sense of what it is that their purpose in life may be,
they're still searching.
They, you know, right. I want to find ways of, you know, preserving the environment.
(23:15):
We were talking about that earlier. Well, there's a lot, how are you going to
integrate that into to your career?
How might that shape the way that you, where you want to live and how you want
to get to work and how you want to be parent?
And so there's always this searching process that is going on.
You're always sort of figuring out, even if you, even if it is the case that
you know what it is you want to accomplish, how are you going to live that in your daily life?
(23:38):
So I think just kind of also getting comfortable with the idea that this reflective
process is something I should cultivate because it's something I should be doing
really across the lifespan.
It's not something that I'm going to do once, it's going to be over,
and I'm going to be off and running.
But it's a process of sort of knowing who you are and what matters most to you
(23:58):
and how you want to make a difference in the world around yourself.
Yeah. So why do you think finding purpose is so important to us as humans?
Yeah. Well, that's a good question. I think in a lot of ways,
it's probably what makes us human, right?
It's what makes us human. It's what differentiates us, I think,
(24:20):
from other beings, other animals.
But I will say too, it turns out it's really good for us to focus on this.
There's a lot of research that suggests that individuals with a purpose in life
are psychologically healthier than individuals without a purpose in life.
So individuals with purpose are much less likely to suffer depression and anxiety,
(24:42):
and they're also more likely to experience positive psychological states like
feeling hopeful, feeling satisfied with one's life.
There's a lot of research looking at, and most of this research is probably
looking more at adults than at young people, but a lot of this research finds
that purpose is associated with a broad range of indicators of physical health.
(25:02):
So lower rates of cardiovascular problems, lower rates of mild cognitive impairment.
I mean, like just about every health issue you can imagine has been studied
and purpose, people with purpose sleep better.
They report fewer sleep disturbances at night and they live longer lives.
Multiple studies have come to that conclusion.
(25:24):
And so I think that living a purpose, figuring out what your purpose is and
living it is very good for you.
But I think the added benefit is it tends to be very good for the broader world
as well, for the societies we live in,
because the way that we think about purpose, it's contributing to that broader
world And the people and the causes and the communities who are the beneficiaries
(25:46):
of your purposeful engagement, well, they benefit as well.
So it's, I think, one of the few sort of constructs that we study in psychology
that benefits not only individuals, but also the broader world.
Definitely. Yeah, I could definitely see that.
And looking at things like anxiety, depression, loneliness, sleep challenges,
(26:09):
all of that, definitely I can see in some of my work that I do that.
Not having purpose. They're often tied together, like the feeling like I don't
have a purpose, why am I here, you know, things like that.
So this can also, I mean, can kind of be a, I don't want to say a solution,
but certainly a support system or a foundation for helping someone who might
(26:34):
be struggling in those areas.
Exactly. When people are struggling, we tend to think about,
you know, what can they do to help themselves?
But often if they can find a way of helping others, it can help them see themselves
as really the important people that they are.
In a positive, a more positive light. Yeah. It's like, oh, I can contribute. I am contributing.
(26:56):
People value me. And so that it starts to bolster that self-esteem and that self-worth.
So yeah, the world needs all of us and our skills and talents. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So for a young person, if they're wanting to develop their purpose,
we've talked a little bit about how they can do that is, you know,
having that toolkit, having that interview or conversation, doing the emails.
(27:20):
Are there other forms of way of cultivating purpose?
I know I've read a little bit. I think you've done some work here in terms of gratitude.
Yeah. What is gratitude's role in this and how does that work?
Yeah. So I should say too, I'll share my website with you.
We have a lot of these tools and articles and more fun pieces written about some of these tools.
(27:42):
So if we run out of time to get through all of them, I can share that website
in your show notes as well.
So people are welcome to take a look there. We post everything that we can on the website.
So gratitude. Yeah, I know. In some ways, thinking about the role of gratitude
and purpose, it's like, well, how do these relate?
But I will tell you, having interviewed literally thousands of young people,
(28:04):
well, at least more than a thousand.
I don't know if I've done more than 2,000, but I've definitely done more than
a thousand interviews with young people, which I should say these interviews are so inspiring.
They're really heartwarming and they give you hope in the future because I've
yet to talk with a young person where I was, you know, not inspired by their
terrific ideas and hopefulness and all of this.
(28:26):
That doesn't mean that everybody I talk to is always, you know,
exuberant and happy. A lot of them are struggling.
But I think when we get them focused on this topic of purpose,
they almost all have some really good ideas and that's always inspiring.
But anyway, one of the most common forms of, one of the most common things that
people talk about as they reference their purpose in life is gratitude.
(28:48):
So I always think about this young woman I interviewed in Indiana years ago.
She was just getting started in college and she wanted to become a teacher.
And I said, oh, okay, great. Tell me more. Why do you want to be a teacher?
And she said, well, I want to be a teacher, but I don't want to be one of those
teachers that clocks in and clocks out.
I want to be one of those teachers that really makes a difference in her students'
(29:11):
lives. And I said, well, that's interesting. Say more.
And she said, well, you know, when I was in high school, my parents went through a really rough divorce.
It was a tough time for me. And I was struggling.
And I had this teacher who just really reached out to me. And she checked in
with me. And she really cared for me. and she helped me navigate this difficult time.
And I'm so grateful for all that she did for me that I want to be that kind
(29:36):
of teacher to another young person in the future.
And we hear this again and again from people. It doesn't always have to take
the form of a career, but where an experience of gratitude has inspired their own purpose in life.
So we wondered if, I wondered if we did a little bit of reading on gratitude.
And when you feel really grateful, we tend to also feel this need to pay back, right?
(30:01):
If somebody does something for you, you kind of need to do something for them.
And sometimes they're not available for you to pay them back.
And in those cases, people tend to feel inclined to pay it forward,
right? Like I almost, there's almost a, like this feeling of I'm indebted to somebody.
And so I need to also think about paying it back or paying it forward. word.
(30:24):
So we wondered if we might be able to cultivate purpose by cultivating a really grateful mindset.
And so we conducted the study, and it worked.
So when we think about gratitude, I should say, we think about sort of a very
particular form of gratitude.
It's a really interpersonal form of gratitude.
I mean, you can be grateful for a sunset, but we don't usually have that sense
(30:46):
of, like, I owe the—well, some people may.
Some people may. We owe the planet something.
But we're really talking about an interpersonal form of gratitude.
And so this is where you really focus on, first of all, the blessings in your
own life, the way that people have blessed you, have helped you,
have invested in you, and acknowledge that.
(31:09):
And also in cultivating gratitude, we want to remind people that whoever has
helped you has incurred some kind of cost.
So as a part of this experience of gratitude, it's a recognition of the cost
that another has incurred in order to help you or to bless you or to invest in you in some way.
And then the final piece, this sort of third piece, so recognizing the way you've
(31:33):
benefited, recognizing the way that another has incurred some kind of cost.
And then the last part is just a recognition that whoever blessed you or helped
you or you're grateful for, whoever that is, they could have chosen to invest
in anybody, but they chose you.
And so sort of this recognition that you are special to them in some way.
(31:54):
You are the special recipient of their time, their effort, and their energy.
And so in our gratitude activities, the gratitude activities are really sort
of set up to help people focus on those three things.
So one of the things that we do is encourage young people to write a gratitude
letter, which is a little bit
like a thank you letter, but it's not in response for a particular gift.
(32:16):
It's more for somebody's ongoing, you know, investment in you.
So maybe you want to write one to a coach or a grandparent or a teacher who's
gone out of their way to really help you.
And in this letter, we encourage you to, young people, to reflect on how have
you benefited from this person's help, invest, you know, a guidance,
(32:38):
whatever it is they've given Vinyo, how has it cost them?
Right? What did they give up? Their time, their, you know, their energy,
their whatever it is, maybe resources.
How does it make you feel knowing that you're the one who was the recipient
of this generous gift over time?
And so the practice of writing these gratitude letters, and we encourage young
(33:00):
people to deliver them, whether that means reading it aloud to somebody or just
giving it to them, it's actually not required.
You can still get a lot of the benefits just by writing the letter.
But I think the benefits are even magnified if you can deliver it and share
it because the person is usually, again, it's a little, it's when it's kind
of like reaching out to adults to get them to send you emails.
(33:23):
It can feel a little awkward, a little uncomfortable.
But the truth is the person who receives it is generally so flattered and so
honored and so warmed by it that they're just, you know, oozing with gratitude right back to you.
You know, especially. tends to be a positive experience.
So we had young people do that. We had them also just reflect on three good
(33:43):
things that happen to you each day.
And at the end of the day, write down those three good things.
And the idea is that you kind of wake up in the morning thinking,
okay, I got to really be looking for the things that people do for me today
and the blessings that I'm lucky enough to incur over the course of the day.
And it turns out that's actually a pretty doggone good way to go through the
(34:05):
day, just thinking about like, what are all the wonderful things that people are doing for me?
And at the end, we do find that young people tend to feel when you're really
focused on all that others have done for you, it does tend to incline them to start to think about,
well, now that I realize how fortunate I am, how these people care for me and
(34:28):
have helped me in all of these ways, how am I going to use my skills and talents to give back?
And it inspires them to start to think about how they want to do that.
Yeah, so do you have a gratitude practice that you do yourself?
Well, I, I've tried them all over the spot.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I've tried them all really over the, over the years.
(34:51):
I mean, especially during COVID, we got really good at reflecting on the things
that we were grateful for each day.
We even wrote them down as a family on our paper and at the end of the year,
opened them all up and sort of read them out. Yeah.
It was kind of fun. Yeah. So yeah, nope, I've definitely written gratitude letters
and kept my gratitude journal.
(35:12):
And yeah, so I've done them all.
Yeah, I've definitely have done quite a few myself.
And well, I, you know, to be honest, I don't have like a consistent practice that's daily.
I definitely go back to it at times and revisit.
And I love the idea of like, you know, as a family doing it together, that can be great too.
(35:33):
And one of the things that we did for a little while was when my kids were younger,
was just sitting at the dining table, you know, a dinner table,
and each of us just saying one thing that we were grateful for that day or that
went well that day, you know, just depending on kind of the mood and where we're at.
But those were great things just as a family to do together and kind of boost
(35:55):
that, yeah, that sense of gratitude, sense of well-being, and really,
you know, made everyone feel good about it.
And we'd have conversations sometimes or tease each other or whatever it might be.
But it is a great practice to do as a family. So I'm glad you brought that up. Yep. Yeah.
Cool. So you...
(36:16):
Let's see. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is just what do you wish
you knew as a teen or someone had told you about gratitude or, I'm sorry,
about purpose that could have changed things for your life or for you?
Well, I think right now we're actually looking at the role of patience in the search for purpose.
(36:38):
My one fear with my research on purpose is that I hope it never feels to a young
person like, oh my gosh, one more thing I have to figure out,
one more thing I just don't know.
And so we really are looking at patience. You can't force yourself to figure
this out overnight. night.
We have these activities that I think have helped spur thinking for a lot of
(37:02):
young people. And so they may well be helpful.
But, you know, if it doesn't come to you as a young person, be patient and recognize
that I really firmly believe all people have a purpose.
And it's just there are different times where you're ready to uncover it and to start acting on it.
And so if If the time isn't there for you right now, that's okay.
(37:27):
Stay open to the possibility. Kind of keep searching.
But I really, really hope. I didn't know my purpose when I was in high school. Not even close.
I don't even think I'd do it in college.
It wasn't until my 20s, somewhere along the line.
And yet the interesting thing is if I look backwards, there were breadcrumbs. You know what I mean?
(37:49):
I didn't see them at the time, but they were there. So I do think these reflective
activities might help you make sense of these breadcrumbs a little sooner if
you're intentional about it, which I was not.
But I also think give yourself some grace. And if it is the case that you're
still trying to figure out what your purpose is, how you're going to give back,
how you're going to contribute, that is okay. You are in good company.
(38:12):
Most people are trying to figure it out. And the important thing is to just
sort of stay attuned to the search because it will become clear at some point and it's not a race.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point is to not force it.
Just let it happen organically. And being aware, you know, from what you've
researched and you're finding is that is extremely helpful, but it doesn't have
(38:36):
to be some difficult process and it doesn't have to be forced or get anxious about it.
You don't want that to happen because, I mean, I think with a lot of things,
the more we hyper focus on things, the more difficult it becomes. comes. Yeah.
Yeah. I think if you're trying to figure it out, get out there and find ways
of engaging in the broader world where you are able to give back and just think
(38:58):
about how does this make me feel? Is this what I care about or maybe it's not?
And even if it takes a while, usually the experience of realizing how useful
you are and how much the world needs you, it needs your talents.
That feels so good. Yeah.
Tapping into your body and that intuition that says, oh, I feel good about this.
(39:18):
Like I'm really enjoying this or this is resonating with me.
And then just kind of putting that, you know, maybe filing that away for later
if you're busy and then going back to it another point and journaling about
it or, you know, taking notes or having some gratitude for it and seeing how
that, that lands for you.
So yeah, I really, I definitely like that advice. I think that totally makes sense.
(39:39):
And, you know, just going through some of the reflective activities to help
even foster that some more.
I almost wish that like...
Schools would or counselors or something could implement
this in a way where it's an activity maybe you
just even in a class on a single day for one
exercise and it gives everyone the exposure to
(40:01):
it so they can then start to do it on their own seems like
it could be a valuable tool we're working on that so stay tuned all right yeah
i think that could be really valuable because it is it's not something that
you just go i'm gonna sit down today and work on this yeah yeah so So if you
can get exposure in other ways that are relevant, that would be great.
(40:22):
Well, and I agree. I think schools are a particularly good place for these kinds
of conversations, mainly because adolescents are, like I said,
it's really tied up in a search for identity.
And young people are trying to figure out, where do I fit into the broader world?
And this is why I feel like having them reach out to others through emails,
things like that, or to think about cultivating a purpose in a school setting
(40:42):
is so effective for young people.
That, you know, if you have a teenager like I do and you've told them,
you know, oh gosh, you're so good at this.
There might be a way for you to use this to, you know, in service of others
or in a cause that you really care about.
It's kind of in one ear and out the other, right? When a parent says it,
it doesn't mean the parents shouldn't say it, but it is the case that when somebody
(41:04):
outside the family says the same thing, a young person is more likely to really glom onto to it.
And so, yeah, so I think also just all of us, we all have some interaction with
young people and we should be cognizant of our potential to help cultivate and mentor young,
you know, cultivate purpose in a young person and sort of offer mentorship and guidance.
(41:27):
Because the little things that we say that sometimes we may not have even given
a whole bunch of thought to might have a lot of impact on a young person.
But anyway, that's another reason I think the school can be particularly impactful
because there are adults outside the family.
These adults don't have any reason to need to say something.
So if they do, the young person is really tuned into that feedback and likely
(41:49):
to be really, you know, influenced by it. Yeah.
And just kind of my perspective as a parent is also, and some things that I
learned with my kids, is not forcing that.
When you recognize that they're good at something or that they have a natural
tendency for absolutely mentioning it, pointing it out, but not forcing it or
(42:11):
trying to make them fall through it.
Because I've seen with my kids, starting out with one thing that they wanted
to do or that they seem to have a natural passion for,
and then discovering that is something I enjoy doing, but not something I want
to turn into my purpose, into my career,
(42:32):
into a goal-oriented sort of thing.
It's more, this is just enjoyment for me.
And so allowing your child,
your teen, your young adult to figure that out for themselves,
definitely point it out, highlight it, give them the resources if it's,
you know, if you're able to and if it is helpful so that they can explore it more, but not,
(42:55):
you know, you get excited and you're like, oh, I want my child, my kid to do this.
To kind of step back and let them explore.
The purpose needs to come from within. And so we can be guideposts,
but it's not up to us. Yeah, cool.
(43:16):
Okay, so I would love to, we never really jumped into your background or how you got into this.
And because studying purpose, it seems like it's very niche. Yeah.
So can you tell us a little bit about like what, you know, got you so interested
in it and why you went down this path?
(43:38):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it happened, you know, after I graduated from college,
I went to work in business.
Like I said, I definitely didn't know my purpose right out of the gates.
And I really enjoyed the work. But I also realized that it wasn't really for me.
I was really interested in studying moral development. So I was fortunate enough
to go back to study with William Damon, who is a professor at Stanford.
(44:02):
And while I was there, my husband got very sick, actually needed a heart transplant.
So we spent months just sort of tethered to the Stanford Hospital.
But it just happened that the next project that my advisor, Bill Damon,
had come across his desk was to look at young people's purposes in life.
And I realized that as a young person, this question of purpose was so relevant
(44:26):
at the moment in my own life.
So, you know, I thought, what a wonderful opportunity to study something that
I'm personally exploring myself right now.
And like I said, I really don't feel like it was until my 20s that I really
identified my own purpose in life.
So, yeah, so the project just really resonated with me. And to be honest,
I think if you'd asked me back then, that was a hot minute ago,
(44:49):
would I still be studying it today?
I might have said like, oh, no, I'm sure I'll move on to other things.
But I've kind of fallen in love with the topic. I just thoroughly enjoy talking
with young people about the things that matter most to them.
And there's, you know, we've enjoyed studying purpose in different cultural
contexts among young people from different socioeconomic backgrounds,
(45:09):
different ethnic backgrounds, and are really interested in this idea of how
can we help young people cultivate a purpose for their lives.
So like I said, doing some work in the schools.
So there's just been so many different ways of thinking about this topic that
I haven't felt the need to move on quite yet.
There are lots of important questions that I'm eager to explore. floor. That's great.
(45:31):
So, I mean, that's just a great example of stumbling upon your purpose in some
ways, right? And it kind of organically happening.
And then over time, you just become more and more impassioned about it and excited
and it just becomes a part of what you do. So that's really cool.
Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. And it was not until my late 20s. Yeah.
(45:53):
And that's totally fine, right? There's no time limit.
And that's an important point, for me, Kendall, is, you know,
we can take our time on it. There's no rush.
And, you know, we just, sometimes we need to relax on it and not get too overwhelmed.
But finding purpose is important. And it's something that we want to try to cultivate.
And some of the tools that you can provide, right, and what we've talked about
(46:16):
today are some great ways to get started. So awesome.
Thank you so much for being on the episode today.
And I definitely will include your links and your resources so that if anyone
wants to get started, if they want to work on their purpose,
if they want to understand more about purpose,
then those are the, you know, the resources are there that you offer and they can get started.
(46:40):
Thank you, Leslie. Thanks for having me on the show today. I really enjoyed
it. Yeah, I did too. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for listening and giving yourself the gift of greater health and wellness.
If you loved today's show, then make sure to follow the podcast so you don't miss an episode.
Get started on today's episode. Hey there, I have a great episode for you today
because I'm joined by Kendall Cotton-Bronk.
Kendall Cotton-Bronk is the principal investigator for the Adolescent Moral
Development Lab and a professor of psychology in the Division of Behavioral
and Social Sciences at the Claremont Graduate University.
(01:29):
What's really cool about Kendall is that she's a developmental scientist studying
and promoting positive youth development and the moral growth of young people.
But more specifically, she is studying character strengths, including humility,
gratitude, hope, and patience.
And she has most commonly investigated young people's purpose in life.
(01:52):
And that's what we're talking about today and why I'm so happy to have her on the episode.
So her research has explored the relationship between purpose and healthy growth
and the ways young people discover purpose and the developmental trajectory
of youth with strong commitments to various purposes in life.
And so you'll hear all about that today. And she focuses on two primary questions around purpose.
(02:15):
First is what does purpose look like among diverse groups of youth, of young people?
And then second is her focus on creating and testing strategies for fostering purpose among youth.
So the resulting purpose fostering tools that she's developed in in collaboration
with others, have been shared with thousands of youth across the country.
(02:37):
And in fact, spoiler alert, she has some new projects in the works that could
further expand her purpose tools.
So you just might see them showing up at a school or a program near you.
So just to let you know. But in the meantime, she has a lot of great tools and
resources, which I will share in the show description.
So let's get started and start diving into purpose, this, what it means,
(03:02):
how you can cultivate it, and just how to get started and what resources and
tools are available for you.
Kendall, it's great to have you on the podcast today because I think the topic
of purpose is very relevant for anyone, but especially for teens and emerging adults,
which is where you specialize your work studying and promoting positive youth
(03:25):
development and the moral growth of young people.
And a lot of that involves purpose.
So as part of what you teach, and I believe you teach at Claremont Graduate
University, when you teach a class on purpose, how do you first describe it to your students?
Yeah, well, let me start by saying thank you for having me, Leslie.
(03:47):
I'm really excited to be here.
I'm really grateful for opportunities to share the research that I feel very
fortunate to get to work on with people who can actually put it into action.
So thanks for this opportunity.
So I do teach a class on purpose.
And yeah, that's exactly right. Where we start is what is a purpose?
(04:09):
What does it mean to lead a life of purpose?
And I think that we all have an idea of what that means, because this is something
that we talk about in our daily lives.
But when we want to study purpose from a scientific perspective,
we have to have a definition that we all kind of agree on and one that we can
operationalize in scientific studies.
(04:31):
So the way that we think about it is a purpose in life.
It's this long term intention to contribute in a really personally meaningful
way to the world beyond oneself.
And in that way, a purpose, it's kind of like a compass. It serves this orienting
purpose where it kind of helps us keep moving in a direction that really matters
(04:54):
to us, that we really care about.
And as we make decisions on a daily basis, often this larger purpose is kind
of running in the background and helping us think about the decisions that we want to make.
So I tend to think about sort of three components of this definition of purpose
being really important. The first is that a purpose in life is it's sort of goal oriented.
(05:17):
It's not exactly the same thing as a goal because a purpose in life,
unlike a goal, may never be fully achievable.
It might not be something that that it's, you know, one day we wake up and we're done.
On the other hand, it is something towards which we can make progress.
So I think this goal sort of oriented towards a goal, that's really the first
(05:39):
part of the definition that is important to keep in mind.
The second part is that it's not just any sort of goal-oriented activity.
It's a goal-oriented activity that really matters to us. It's really personally meaningful.
In fact, it matters so much that we are willing to dedicate our time,
our effort, and our resources to making progress toward it.
(06:03):
That's the second part. And then the third part of that definition is that it
is a meaningful goal that's inspired, at least in part, by a desire to contribute
to the world beyond ourselves.
So we have lots of meaningful goals, but this is one that really allows us to
contribute to the broader world in a personally significant way.
(06:23):
And based on this definition, we find that young people today find purpose in
all kinds of activities, doing things like caring for their families,
through pursuing careers that enable them to make a personally meaningful difference
in the broader world, through creating new forms of art, music,
whatever it is that is new and different, through supporting social and political
(06:49):
change, through following the tenets of their religious beliefs.
A lot of young people find purpose in working really hard to support or to clean up the environment.
So all of these are kinds of activities that we may never be able to fully achieve.
I'm not sure you'll ever wake up one day and say, we're done.
The environment's great.
But we could definitely make progress toward it. Yeah. So with purpose,
(07:13):
it really is kind of boundless that there's all different levels, all different types.
You can have, I would imagine, or I pretty much know, but you have multiple
forms of purpose throughout your life or even at a single time,
right? Yeah, that's right. Right. That's right.
We don't just have one purpose in life. We have multiple purposes.
(07:33):
We've never really been able to determine exactly how many purposes people can have.
I would imagine there's some limits because a purpose is so meaningful.
Like I said, you're really actively engaged in working toward it.
And it really does orient and guide your sort of daily decisions and activities.
So, you know, you couldn't have too many different things you we're trying to
(07:55):
accomplish. There's just only so many hours in the day.
But we do find that most people tend to have more than one purpose.
And although these purposes endure over time, they do tend to wax and wane and
evolve over the course of your life as well.
So as adults, we might find purpose in raising children to be really happy,
(08:17):
healthy, well-adjusted, good contributing citizens.
Someday those children grow up, they leave home. And although we may not cease
to be parents, the role changes, right?
It just doesn't require as much time. And we may choose to reinvest in work-related purposes.
When older adults retire, right, if they had found a lot of purpose in their
work, they may choose to reinvest in community service-oriented purposes.
(08:41):
So they do tend to change over the course of our lives or at least evolve.
Yeah. And so when, you know, you're a young person having that purpose.
And as you're saying, you know, we have a purpose that tends to be,
there tends to be like a core purpose
or a core focus, something that is a pretty large part of your life.
So whether it is, you know, a parent and family or in raising those children,
(09:04):
or it's someone in their, you know, community and doing things specifically
for the community, or as you mentioned, like social,
political, there's all sorts of different types, but we We tend to have something
that we're passionate about,
something that we want to contribute to the world around us and that we, it's goal oriented.
Like we want to get somewhere. We want to achieve something in some way.
(09:26):
And for young people, I find that, you know, there can be a phase in their adolescent
years and kind of moving into college years or young adult years where they
start to feel like, I don't know,
anchorless and maybe that they don't have a purpose and they're trying to search
(09:47):
for it and trying to figure it out and they're not really sure.
And it can be kind of discouraging and a little upsetting.
Like, I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know where my value is.
How do they go about finding that?
Like, what are you discovering as you research this and you work on it?
Yeah, no, I think that's really right. There was a pretty recent,
(10:08):
just a few years back, a poll, a nationwide poll that the Gallup organization
conducted along with researchers at Bates College.
And they were asking young people, how important is it for you to sort of figure
out what matters most to you, your purpose?
And four out of five young people said, this is either very or extremely important to me.
So we know this is something that young people want. They want to know how they
(10:33):
fit in. They want to know how they can contribute, how they can leave their mark.
And yet we also know that most young people, it can be tough to figure this out.
It's not always something that young people figure out on their own.
So I think there's a really important, and I think the research backs this up, reflective component.
I feel like young people are pretty scheduled these days.
(10:56):
They have a lot going on and they're running from activity to activity.
And there's not a lot of time built in to really step back and reflect on,
what do I think about this activity?
How does this activity allow me to contribute in personally meaningful ways?
And what is, what do I want to, you know, how do I want to use my skills and
my talents to make a positive difference in the world around me?
(11:18):
So I think that we need to build in more opportunities for young people to reflect.
And I think the other thing is that we tend to think of when you ask young people,
what is your purpose in life?
How are you going to figure this out? They sort of picture some person sitting
on a rock out in the middle of nowhere meditating and just a lightning bolt.
(11:40):
It sort of hits them over the head.
And the truth is that's not usually the way it happens.
It's kind of a more gradual process. In fact, our research suggests that you
can really cultivate a purpose in your life by taking some sort of intentional steps.
And so, like I said, this reflection is key, but it doesn't mean that you have to always do it alone.
(12:02):
We started this research on purpose years ago.
And one of the things we did is we conducted surveys nationwide,
surveyed like a thousand young people.
We just randomly selected a hundred of those young people to interview them.
And the interviews lasted about an hour.
We asked young people, you know, what matters most to you? What are you trying
(12:23):
to accomplish in your life? And why?
Why do you care about this? And how are you going to go about it?
We really sort of dug into to those issues.
And at the end of the interviews, we were surprised because young people,
they all sort of said the same thing, which is, oh my gosh, nobody asks me this.
And I said some good stuff in that interview. Can I get a hold of the interview transcript?
(12:45):
Or they knew we were recording it, the recording.
And that made us wonder, is it possible that this interview was kind of an unintentional intervention?
And as luck would have it, we had already planned to do surveys again, several months later.
So we did. We looked at the young people who participated in the interviews and those who did not.
Actually, I should say my colleague, Matthew Joseph, did at Duquesne University.
(13:09):
And he found that, lo and behold, those young people who had participated in
this one-time interview about the things that matter most to them had higher
purpose scores, meaning they had a stronger sense of purpose in their lives at time two.
So again, I think that that hour was an opportunity for them to reflect and
really step back and think about what am I good at?
(13:32):
What do I really care about? And how am I going to leave my mark?
And they didn't do it on their own. They did it with another person.
So in my lab, we took this interview and we tried to turn it into a sort of
an online toolkit. It actually worked pretty well.
So I could tell you a little bit about some of these activities that we have
found actually do help young people figure out how it is that they want to leave their mark.
(14:00):
So one of the activities that we have come up with, well, I should say too,
this interview is posted online and there are some guides to how to conduct this interview.
So if you are a young person who's going to be going on a long road trip with
an adult who you know and trust, maybe the person can interview you and you
(14:20):
can sort of go through this series of questions and see if it does help.
Yeah. Summer's a perfect time. That's awesome. Right? I know. Yeah.
But so I can include this. Maybe we can put it in the show notes or something. Yes, absolutely.
Great. Because that interview is available and there are some guidelines as
to sort of how to conduct it.
But short of that, one of the activities that we tried that I think worked pretty
(14:43):
well is to have young people send an email to five adults who know them really well.
This could be a coach. It could be a teacher. It could be a mentor.
It could be an extended family member, just someone who knows them really well.
And in this email, you ask the adults, can you, in just five minutes or less,
answer these three questions about me?
(15:05):
And the questions are, number one, what do you think I am really good at?
Number two, what do you think I really enjoy doing?
And number three, how do you think I'm going to leave my mark.
And the idea is that the feedback that young people get in the form of these emails,
it can be really eye-opening because sometimes young people will see patterns
(15:29):
and trends across like, gosh, all five of these people have really noted that
I'm good with kids, or I really have an opportunity to do some things with my math skills,
or, you know, they've recognized that I care about this issue of,
you know, whatever it is, voting rights or equity or, you know,
or whatever it is that matters to you.
And sometimes that can be eye-opening. Absolutely. And if I can just interject,
(15:53):
I mean, I did this several years ago, a very similar exercise.
And so if any young person listening today is resistant or if a parent is listening
and they think their child's going to resist, I have to tell you,
it was very enlightening.
And it was really cool to see other people's perceptions and the feedback that I received.
(16:13):
And everyone was delighted to participate. So if someone is thinking,
oh, no one's going to want to do that or this is embarrassing or something like
that, it really isn't. Like people were excited to provide feedback.
They were kind. They were thoughtful. I mean, some of the responses,
they put so much thought into it.
It was really awesome. So I have to say this is a great method and it really
(16:36):
does, at least for me, it really did help with identifying some things that
I was working on and understanding more of like, okay, is this my purpose?
Is this the direction I should be going in?
So just wanted to kind of give that plug without even, you know,
no connection to what you've done.
It just, I happened to do it. I came across something else very similar and
(16:58):
it was, it worked great. Right. Yeah.
I feel like, I mean, we have these in organizational settings,
360 degree reviews and things like that.
So as adults, you're right. We're a little more accustomed to this.
And so if a young person asks for feedback, it doesn't seem so totally out of the blue.
And I think you're right. I've been asked for feedback and it's kind of feels like an honor.
(17:19):
Like, wow, this young person cares about my opinion.
So yeah, it does can make the young person feel a little bit vulnerable.
But I think in the end, it's really helpful, the feedback that they get.
And it tends to really sort of strengthen those social bonds.
It tends to be a pretty positive experience.
The only potential drawback, I will say, is, and I think this is an opportunity
(17:40):
where parents can jump in, is if nobody gets back to them.
We haven't had that happen often. But.
But I think it's important for the role that parents or mentors or others can
play is to just sort of help the young person identify the right people,
people who will, and vast majority of people will respond.
So that's unlikely. But as long as you get that feedback, it tends to be really clarifying.
(18:03):
Yeah. Have you found like if asking those people in advance,
like saying, you know, I'd like to get your feedback, are you open to that?
And if they say yes, then sending them the questions?
That's a great idea. We actually haven't tried that. We just tried it,
but we did have parents review the list and then we didn't run into any trouble.
When we did a little pre-test and we had one student who only got one response
(18:25):
and was a little demoralized and we thought, oh no, we want to avoid that. That was not the goal.
We realized, let's just have the parents take a look.
I do think you can say in this email,
no need to spend more than five minutes on this because I think that the reason
and adults don't get back isn't because they don't love this young person and
really want to help, but they get almost overwhelmed feeling like,
(18:48):
oh my gosh, I want to give just the right feedback and I want to say it just right.
And before they know it, a week has passed and the young person's on to the
next. Well, which is why I love the three questions because you're not overwhelming them.
It's just three simple questions and they can do one or two sentences that they
want or they can do paragraphs.
That's up to them. But yeah, I agree that you don't want to intimidate or overwhelm
(19:08):
someone because yeah, we're all busy and it happens, but not to feel bad about
it because exactly for those reasons, their intentions may be good.
Right. Yeah. And I think I did a follow-up with a few people who were slow to
respond and then they were like, oh my gosh.
Exactly. Exactly. And if you are courageous enough to follow up,
they will generally get right back to you. Yeah. Yeah. Great.
(19:32):
Okay. So yeah, you were talking about that whole process and the online toolkit
and taking that time to really, you know, like maybe taking an hour, which is great.
I, that's what I love about what you said is that it kind of light bulb for
me. I'm like, gosh, it's only an hour.
You know, of course, if you want to continue working on it and that sort of
thing, but, but realizing it doesn't have to take a ton of time,
(19:54):
but just the act of talking about it with someone, getting feedback,
helping them or them helping you fine tune where your strengths are and where
your abilities are and your passions and things like that, and then start to
form, okay, what, what could that look like for me?
Yeah. Yeah. We have a study going on right now, a longitudinal study where we've
(20:16):
been following a sample of young people across high school and now into college.
And so every year we check in with them for one hour and we conduct this interview
and we talk about, you know, what matters most and what's changed.
And we've been amazed at, you know, the students. We said we're not sure.
We weren't sure if we were going to get funding to keep going.
And they said, oh, gosh, we want to keep going.
(20:38):
This has been so helpful. And we thought, you know, we should write about that
because the idea is it's just an hour. I mean, an hour a year.
I think that if you can do more and more frequently, I think of the development of purpose is a process.
And so if you don't have a full hour, even if you have 10 minutes six times
over the course of six months to check in and have a quick conversation on this
(21:02):
topic, you're just sort of helping the young person think about it and reflect on it.
And one of the things we notice is that you have these conversations,
but the thought process goes on after the conversation ends.
So if you have more frequent conversations, even if they're briefer,
there's still that reflective process that follows each of those conversations.
(21:24):
So yeah, no, I agree. It doesn't, we're not talking about hours and hours and hours of time.
More consistent time is what is needed. Well, and, you know,
those that time between high school and college, so much transition,
so much change that, you know, you could get kind of lost.
(21:44):
And so being able to anchor into something and find that purpose.
And I mean, just think about just the act of going to college.
You're trying to figure out what am I going to do in my future?
What major am I going to study in? Where do I want my career to be?
Where do I want to go in life?
There's so many questions that are happening. And for some students, that's hard.
And they, you know, trial different courses and maybe start a major and then
(22:08):
change it and go into another one.
And for other students, it's, you know, they find their purpose and they just go for it.
They're often ready. It's different, I would imagine, for everyone.
And even if you're not going to college, there's still that process going on.
Yeah, I think that developing a purpose in life is a developmental process,
and it tends to really go hand in hand with the development of identity.
(22:30):
So as we're asking ourselves these questions, you know, who am I and who do I want to become?
Those questions are really sort of inextricably tied up with the purpose questions,
which are, you know, what do I want to accomplish in my life?
And young people, just like you don't figure out who you are and who you want
to become in one moment, it happens
over time and through reflection and conversation with other people.
(22:53):
I think purpose development is sort of similar. It doesn't happen typically
in one moment, but instead over time, it's a process.
And the truth is even our research even suggests that young people who have
a strong sense of what it is that their purpose in life may be,
they're still searching.
They, you know, right. I want to find ways of, you know, preserving the environment.
(23:15):
We were talking about that earlier. Well, there's a lot, how are you going to
integrate that into to your career?
How might that shape the way that you, where you want to live and how you want
to get to work and how you want to be parent?
And so there's always this searching process that is going on.
You're always sort of figuring out, even if you, even if it is the case that
you know what it is you want to accomplish, how are you going to live that in your daily life?
(23:38):
So I think just kind of also getting comfortable with the idea that this reflective
process is something I should cultivate because it's something I should be doing
really across the lifespan.
It's not something that I'm going to do once, it's going to be over,
and I'm going to be off and running.
But it's a process of sort of knowing who you are and what matters most to you
(23:58):
and how you want to make a difference in the world around yourself.
Yeah. So why do you think finding purpose is so important to us as humans?
Yeah. Well, that's a good question. I think in a lot of ways,
it's probably what makes us human, right?
It's what makes us human. It's what differentiates us, I think,
(24:20):
from other beings, other animals.
But I will say too, it turns out it's really good for us to focus on this.
There's a lot of research that suggests that individuals with a purpose in life
are psychologically healthier than individuals without a purpose in life.
So individuals with purpose are much less likely to suffer depression and anxiety,
(24:42):
and they're also more likely to experience positive psychological states like
feeling hopeful, feeling satisfied with one's life.
There's a lot of research looking at, and most of this research is probably
looking more at adults than at young people, but a lot of this research finds
that purpose is associated with a broad range of indicators of physical health.
(25:02):
So lower rates of cardiovascular problems, lower rates of mild cognitive impairment.
I mean, like just about every health issue you can imagine has been studied
and purpose, people with purpose sleep better.
They report fewer sleep disturbances at night and they live longer lives.
Multiple studies have come to that conclusion.
(25:24):
And so I think that living a purpose, figuring out what your purpose is and
living it is very good for you.
But I think the added benefit is it tends to be very good for the broader world
as well, for the societies we live in,
because the way that we think about purpose, it's contributing to that broader
world And the people and the causes and the communities who are the beneficiaries
(25:46):
of your purposeful engagement, well, they benefit as well.
So it's, I think, one of the few sort of constructs that we study in psychology
that benefits not only individuals, but also the broader world.
Definitely. Yeah, I could definitely see that.
And looking at things like anxiety, depression, loneliness, sleep challenges,
(26:09):
all of that, definitely I can see in some of my work that I do that.
Not having purpose. They're often tied together, like the feeling like I don't
have a purpose, why am I here, you know, things like that.
So this can also, I mean, can kind of be a, I don't want to say a solution,
but certainly a support system or a foundation for helping someone who might
(26:34):
be struggling in those areas.
Exactly. When people are struggling, we tend to think about,
you know, what can they do to help themselves?
But often if they can find a way of helping others, it can help them see themselves
as really the important people that they are.
In a positive, a more positive light. Yeah. It's like, oh, I can contribute. I am contributing.
(26:56):
People value me. And so that it starts to bolster that self-esteem and that self-worth.
So yeah, the world needs all of us and our skills and talents. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So for a young person, if they're wanting to develop their purpose,
we've talked a little bit about how they can do that is, you know,
having that toolkit, having that interview or conversation, doing the emails.
(27:20):
Are there other forms of way of cultivating purpose?
I know I've read a little bit. I think you've done some work here in terms of gratitude.
Yeah. What is gratitude's role in this and how does that work?
Yeah. So I should say too, I'll share my website with you.
We have a lot of these tools and articles and more fun pieces written about some of these tools.
(27:42):
So if we run out of time to get through all of them, I can share that website
in your show notes as well.
So people are welcome to take a look there. We post everything that we can on the website.
So gratitude. Yeah, I know. In some ways, thinking about the role of gratitude
and purpose, it's like, well, how do these relate?
But I will tell you, having interviewed literally thousands of young people,
(28:04):
well, at least more than a thousand.
I don't know if I've done more than 2,000, but I've definitely done more than
a thousand interviews with young people, which I should say these interviews are so inspiring.
They're really heartwarming and they give you hope in the future because I've
yet to talk with a young person where I was, you know, not inspired by their
terrific ideas and hopefulness and all of this.
(28:26):
That doesn't mean that everybody I talk to is always, you know,
exuberant and happy. A lot of them are struggling.
But I think when we get them focused on this topic of purpose,
they almost all have some really good ideas and that's always inspiring.
But anyway, one of the most common forms of, one of the most common things that
people talk about as they reference their purpose in life is gratitude.
(28:48):
So I always think about this young woman I interviewed in Indiana years ago.
She was just getting started in college and she wanted to become a teacher.
And I said, oh, okay, great. Tell me more. Why do you want to be a teacher?
And she said, well, I want to be a teacher, but I don't want to be one of those
teachers that clocks in and clocks out.
I want to be one of those teachers that really makes a difference in her students'
(29:11):
lives. And I said, well, that's interesting. Say more.
And she said, well, you know, when I was in high school, my parents went through a really rough divorce.
It was a tough time for me. And I was struggling.
And I had this teacher who just really reached out to me. And she checked in
with me. And she really cared for me. and she helped me navigate this difficult time.
And I'm so grateful for all that she did for me that I want to be that kind
(29:36):
of teacher to another young person in the future.
And we hear this again and again from people. It doesn't always have to take
the form of a career, but where an experience of gratitude has inspired their own purpose in life.
So we wondered if, I wondered if we did a little bit of reading on gratitude.
And when you feel really grateful, we tend to also feel this need to pay back, right?
(30:01):
If somebody does something for you, you kind of need to do something for them.
And sometimes they're not available for you to pay them back.
And in those cases, people tend to feel inclined to pay it forward,
right? Like I almost, there's almost a, like this feeling of I'm indebted to somebody.
And so I need to also think about paying it back or paying it forward. word.
(30:24):
So we wondered if we might be able to cultivate purpose by cultivating a really grateful mindset.
And so we conducted the study, and it worked.
So when we think about gratitude, I should say, we think about sort of a very
particular form of gratitude.
It's a really interpersonal form of gratitude.
I mean, you can be grateful for a sunset, but we don't usually have that sense
(30:46):
of, like, I owe the—well, some people may.
Some people may. We owe the planet something.
But we're really talking about an interpersonal form of gratitude.
And so this is where you really focus on, first of all, the blessings in your
own life, the way that people have blessed you, have helped you,
have invested in you, and acknowledge that.
(31:09):
And also in cultivating gratitude, we want to remind people that whoever has
helped you has incurred some kind of cost.
So as a part of this experience of gratitude, it's a recognition of the cost
that another has incurred in order to help you or to bless you or to invest in you in some way.
And then the final piece, this sort of third piece, so recognizing the way you've
(31:33):
benefited, recognizing the way that another has incurred some kind of cost.
And then the last part is just a recognition that whoever blessed you or helped
you or you're grateful for, whoever that is, they could have chosen to invest
in anybody, but they chose you.
And so sort of this recognition that you are special to them in some way.
(31:54):
You are the special recipient of their time, their effort, and their energy.
And so in our gratitude activities, the gratitude activities are really sort
of set up to help people focus on those three things.
So one of the things that we do is encourage young people to write a gratitude
letter, which is a little bit
like a thank you letter, but it's not in response for a particular gift.
(32:16):
It's more for somebody's ongoing, you know, investment in you.
So maybe you want to write one to a coach or a grandparent or a teacher who's
gone out of their way to really help you.
And in this letter, we encourage you to, young people, to reflect on how have
you benefited from this person's help, invest, you know, a guidance,
(32:38):
whatever it is they've given Vinyo, how has it cost them?
Right? What did they give up? Their time, their, you know, their energy,
their whatever it is, maybe resources.
How does it make you feel knowing that you're the one who was the recipient
of this generous gift over time?
And so the practice of writing these gratitude letters, and we encourage young
(33:00):
people to deliver them, whether that means reading it aloud to somebody or just
giving it to them, it's actually not required.
You can still get a lot of the benefits just by writing the letter.
But I think the benefits are even magnified if you can deliver it and share
it because the person is usually, again, it's a little, it's when it's kind
of like reaching out to adults to get them to send you emails.
(33:23):
It can feel a little awkward, a little uncomfortable.
But the truth is the person who receives it is generally so flattered and so
honored and so warmed by it that they're just, you know, oozing with gratitude right back to you.
You know, especially. tends to be a positive experience.
So we had young people do that. We had them also just reflect on three good
(33:43):
things that happen to you each day.
And at the end of the day, write down those three good things.
And the idea is that you kind of wake up in the morning thinking,
okay, I got to really be looking for the things that people do for me today
and the blessings that I'm lucky enough to incur over the course of the day.
And it turns out that's actually a pretty doggone good way to go through the
(34:05):
day, just thinking about like, what are all the wonderful things that people are doing for me?
And at the end, we do find that young people tend to feel when you're really
focused on all that others have done for you, it does tend to incline them to start to think about,
well, now that I realize how fortunate I am, how these people care for me and
(34:28):
have helped me in all of these ways, how am I going to use my skills and talents to give back?
And it inspires them to start to think about how they want to do that.
Yeah, so do you have a gratitude practice that you do yourself?
Well, I, I've tried them all over the spot.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I've tried them all really over the, over the years.
(34:51):
I mean, especially during COVID, we got really good at reflecting on the things
that we were grateful for each day.
We even wrote them down as a family on our paper and at the end of the year,
opened them all up and sort of read them out. Yeah.
It was kind of fun. Yeah. So yeah, nope, I've definitely written gratitude letters
and kept my gratitude journal.
(35:12):
And yeah, so I've done them all.
Yeah, I've definitely have done quite a few myself.
And well, I, you know, to be honest, I don't have like a consistent practice that's daily.
I definitely go back to it at times and revisit.
And I love the idea of like, you know, as a family doing it together, that can be great too.
(35:33):
And one of the things that we did for a little while was when my kids were younger,
was just sitting at the dining table, you know, a dinner table,
and each of us just saying one thing that we were grateful for that day or that
went well that day, you know, just depending on kind of the mood and where we're at.
But those were great things just as a family to do together and kind of boost
(35:55):
that, yeah, that sense of gratitude, sense of well-being, and really,
you know, made everyone feel good about it.
And we'd have conversations sometimes or tease each other or whatever it might be.
But it is a great practice to do as a family. So I'm glad you brought that up. Yep. Yeah.
Cool. So you...
(36:16):
Let's see. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is just what do you wish
you knew as a teen or someone had told you about gratitude or, I'm sorry,
about purpose that could have changed things for your life or for you?
Well, I think right now we're actually looking at the role of patience in the search for purpose.
(36:38):
My one fear with my research on purpose is that I hope it never feels to a young
person like, oh my gosh, one more thing I have to figure out,
one more thing I just don't know.
And so we really are looking at patience. You can't force yourself to figure
this out overnight. night.
We have these activities that I think have helped spur thinking for a lot of
(37:02):
young people. And so they may well be helpful.
But, you know, if it doesn't come to you as a young person, be patient and recognize
that I really firmly believe all people have a purpose.
And it's just there are different times where you're ready to uncover it and to start acting on it.
And so if If the time isn't there for you right now, that's okay.
(37:27):
Stay open to the possibility. Kind of keep searching.
But I really, really hope. I didn't know my purpose when I was in high school. Not even close.
I don't even think I'd do it in college.
It wasn't until my 20s, somewhere along the line.
And yet the interesting thing is if I look backwards, there were breadcrumbs. You know what I mean?
(37:49):
I didn't see them at the time, but they were there. So I do think these reflective
activities might help you make sense of these breadcrumbs a little sooner if
you're intentional about it, which I was not.
But I also think give yourself some grace. And if it is the case that you're
still trying to figure out what your purpose is, how you're going to give back,
how you're going to contribute, that is okay. You are in good company.
(38:12):
Most people are trying to figure it out. And the important thing is to just
sort of stay attuned to the search because it will become clear at some point and it's not a race.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point is to not force it.
Just let it happen organically. And being aware, you know, from what you've
researched and you're finding is that is extremely helpful, but it doesn't have
(38:36):
to be some difficult process and it doesn't have to be forced or get anxious about it.
You don't want that to happen because, I mean, I think with a lot of things,
the more we hyper focus on things, the more difficult it becomes. comes. Yeah.
Yeah. I think if you're trying to figure it out, get out there and find ways
of engaging in the broader world where you are able to give back and just think
(38:58):
about how does this make me feel? Is this what I care about or maybe it's not?
And even if it takes a while, usually the experience of realizing how useful
you are and how much the world needs you, it needs your talents.
That feels so good. Yeah.
Tapping into your body and that intuition that says, oh, I feel good about this.
(39:18):
Like I'm really enjoying this or this is resonating with me.
And then just kind of putting that, you know, maybe filing that away for later
if you're busy and then going back to it another point and journaling about
it or, you know, taking notes or having some gratitude for it and seeing how
that, that lands for you.
So yeah, I really, I definitely like that advice. I think that totally makes sense.
(39:39):
And, you know, just going through some of the reflective activities to help
even foster that some more.
I almost wish that like...
Schools would or counselors or something could implement
this in a way where it's an activity maybe you
just even in a class on a single day for one
exercise and it gives everyone the exposure to
(40:01):
it so they can then start to do it on their own seems like
it could be a valuable tool we're working on that so stay tuned all right yeah
i think that could be really valuable because it is it's not something that
you just go i'm gonna sit down today and work on this yeah yeah so So if you
can get exposure in other ways that are relevant, that would be great.
(40:22):
Well, and I agree. I think schools are a particularly good place for these kinds
of conversations, mainly because adolescents are, like I said,
it's really tied up in a search for identity.
And young people are trying to figure out, where do I fit into the broader world?
And this is why I feel like having them reach out to others through emails,
things like that, or to think about cultivating a purpose in a school setting
(40:42):
is so effective for young people.
That, you know, if you have a teenager like I do and you've told them,
you know, oh gosh, you're so good at this.
There might be a way for you to use this to, you know, in service of others
or in a cause that you really care about.
It's kind of in one ear and out the other, right? When a parent says it,
it doesn't mean the parents shouldn't say it, but it is the case that when somebody
(41:04):
outside the family says the same thing, a young person is more likely to really glom onto to it.
And so, yeah, so I think also just all of us, we all have some interaction with
young people and we should be cognizant of our potential to help cultivate and mentor young,
you know, cultivate purpose in a young person and sort of offer mentorship and guidance.
(41:27):
Because the little things that we say that sometimes we may not have even given
a whole bunch of thought to might have a lot of impact on a young person.
But anyway, that's another reason I think the school can be particularly impactful
because there are adults outside the family.
These adults don't have any reason to need to say something.
So if they do, the young person is really tuned into that feedback and likely
(41:49):
to be really, you know, influenced by it. Yeah.
And just kind of my perspective as a parent is also, and some things that I
learned with my kids, is not forcing that.
When you recognize that they're good at something or that they have a natural
tendency for absolutely mentioning it, pointing it out, but not forcing it or
(42:11):
trying to make them fall through it.
Because I've seen with my kids, starting out with one thing that they wanted
to do or that they seem to have a natural passion for,
and then discovering that is something I enjoy doing, but not something I want
to turn into my purpose, into my career,
(42:32):
into a goal-oriented sort of thing.
It's more, this is just enjoyment for me.
And so allowing your child,
your teen, your young adult to figure that out for themselves,
definitely point it out, highlight it, give them the resources if it's,
you know, if you're able to and if it is helpful so that they can explore it more, but not,
(42:55):
you know, you get excited and you're like, oh, I want my child, my kid to do this.
To kind of step back and let them explore.
The purpose needs to come from within. And so we can be guideposts,
but it's not up to us. Yeah, cool.
(43:16):
Okay, so I would love to, we never really jumped into your background or how you got into this.
And because studying purpose, it seems like it's very niche. Yeah.
So can you tell us a little bit about like what, you know, got you so interested
in it and why you went down this path?
(43:38):
Yeah, yeah. Well, it happened, you know, after I graduated from college,
I went to work in business.
Like I said, I definitely didn't know my purpose right out of the gates.
And I really enjoyed the work. But I also realized that it wasn't really for me.
I was really interested in studying moral development. So I was fortunate enough
to go back to study with William Damon, who is a professor at Stanford.
(44:02):
And while I was there, my husband got very sick, actually needed a heart transplant.
So we spent months just sort of tethered to the Stanford Hospital.
But it just happened that the next project that my advisor, Bill Damon,
had come across his desk was to look at young people's purposes in life.
And I realized that as a young person, this question of purpose was so relevant
(44:26):
at the moment in my own life.
So, you know, I thought, what a wonderful opportunity to study something that
I'm personally exploring myself right now.
And like I said, I really don't feel like it was until my 20s that I really
identified my own purpose in life.
So, yeah, so the project just really resonated with me. And to be honest,
I think if you'd asked me back then, that was a hot minute ago,
(44:49):
would I still be studying it today?
I might have said like, oh, no, I'm sure I'll move on to other things.
But I've kind of fallen in love with the topic. I just thoroughly enjoy talking
with young people about the things that matter most to them.
And there's, you know, we've enjoyed studying purpose in different cultural
contexts among young people from different socioeconomic backgrounds,
(45:09):
different ethnic backgrounds, and are really interested in this idea of how
can we help young people cultivate a purpose for their lives.
So like I said, doing some work in the schools.
So there's just been so many different ways of thinking about this topic that
I haven't felt the need to move on quite yet.
There are lots of important questions that I'm eager to explore. floor. That's great.
(45:31):
So, I mean, that's just a great example of stumbling upon your purpose in some
ways, right? And it kind of organically happening.
And then over time, you just become more and more impassioned about it and excited
and it just becomes a part of what you do. So that's really cool.
Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. And it was not until my late 20s. Yeah.
(45:53):
And that's totally fine, right? There's no time limit.
And that's an important point, for me, Kendall, is, you know,
we can take our time on it. There's no rush.
And, you know, we just, sometimes we need to relax on it and not get too overwhelmed.
But finding purpose is important. And it's something that we want to try to cultivate.
And some of the tools that you can provide, right, and what we've talked about
(46:16):
today are some great ways to get started. So awesome.
Thank you so much for being on the episode today.
And I definitely will include your links and your resources so that if anyone
wants to get started, if they want to work on their purpose,
if they want to understand more about purpose,
then those are the, you know, the resources are there that you offer and they can get started.
(46:40):
Thank you, Leslie. Thanks for having me on the show today. I really enjoyed
it. Yeah, I did too. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much for listening and giving yourself the gift of greater health and wellness.
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