April 15, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of the "HR Mixtape," host Shari Simpson welcomes Dr. Andy Garrett, a strategic growth consultant and clinical psychologist at AG Thrive. They delve into the concept of authentic identity and its crucial role in personal and professional growth. Dr. Garrett emphasizes the importance of aligning individual values with organizational goals to foster a thriving workplace culture.
Key Takeaways:
- Authenticity as Leadership: Discover why authenticity is the ultimate leadership skill and how it enhances team dynamics.
- True North Blueprint: Learn about the True North Blueprint and how defining personal and organizational values can reduce burnout and increase engagement.
- Courageous Conversations: Gain insights on how to address inauthenticity in leadership through compassionate and constructive dialogue.
Tune in for practical advice and thought-provoking insights that can transform your approach to HR and leadership development!
Guest(s): Dr. Andy Garrett, Psy D., Strategic Growth Consultant, Coach and Clinical Psychologist, AG Thrive Psychological Consultation, Inc.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel,
well, like work. Now, your host,
Joining me on the podcast today is Dr. Andy Garrett, a strategic growth
consultant, coach, and clinical psychologist at AG Thrive. With
(00:24):
a foundation in positive psychology and holistic integration, he
blends coaching and clinical expertise to help people and organizations become
Yeah, I'm so happy to be here and excited for this conversation. I
(00:45):
know the questions that you sent over were
great questions. So I'm very excited to get into them
Ah, yes, I can't wait. And we're going to start with not
an easy one, because you Your space and
the work you do really revolves around thriving
(01:06):
and having an authentic identity. So maybe we can start there.
How do you define authentic identity and why has it kind
of become the foundation, you think, to personal and professional growth?
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I saw a post from Simon Sinek the
other day about the three, you know, great stuff as
always with Simon, but he identified courage, integrity
(01:27):
and communication as the three best leadership skills. And I
did respond to that and said that, Ultimately, I think authenticity is
the most important leadership skill. Courage,
integrity, and communication suggest that maybe those are
natural skills that people have, certainly the things that people can work
on. But what I appreciate about authenticity is that it's someone operating
(01:48):
in their truest nature. So really, as
far as character strengths go, it is the ultimate umbrella character
strength, because it's someone having the self-awareness to be able to
operate. And I think where maybe my definition differs
from the way that I often see it used, I've seen research that
suggests authenticity really should be thought of as a moral concept
(02:10):
or kind of a values-related concept. And so, when people
are operating outside of authenticity, oftentimes it's
because they're out of alignment with their values. And so, when you help
them to get really clear, both in being able to articulate
what their values are, what their guiding principles are, and then
be able to understand why those are so important to them and how they
(02:32):
live that out or how they operate that in the workspace, It's
amazing to see, right? And then, of course, understand what their strengths
are and, you know, what they're motivated by. But when you start to
operate, now you have someone who is operating with
autonomy, right? They're operating in their strength zone, and
you're seeing them operate in their greatest capacity. And so, to
(02:53):
me, if you can have a whole team full of people operating in that, you're
going to see them maximize their potential and really operate at full
Well, and it's so true, the idea around finding your values
and what motivates you. I am surprised at how
often I talk to managers or leaders or people who are, you know, trying to
(03:13):
take that next step and you have that conversation about, you know, you brought
up Simon Sinek. So like, what's your why or what motivates you or
where are your values? And they've never done that values exercise.
Oh, yeah, yeah, we just did a workshop in
Oregon, and we did one in Jamaica, it's filled with all
(03:35):
C suite leaders, and some of them had done but
by and large, the majority had not, or maybe they took
some assessment that, you know, some online thing that
spit out a, you know, a set of answers. I think
one of the things that I'm sure maybe that you've done and
that we do is, you know, really force them to have to choose
(03:56):
their values in their own language. And then have to, again, really
give that definition that there was a James Fowler was a
actually a theologian, but he came up with a concept of identity,
an identity model. It's since been used in a bunch of
identity constructs, and the reason I mentioned him real quick is
that he saw identity existing on a spectrum from most mature
(04:17):
to least mature. He said that when people had taken on their
identity from their environment, whether it was from their
family of origin, from their culture, from society, church,
wherever it might be, but they didn't take the time to chew on it to say, well, is
this even actually what I believe? That they swallowed those
beliefs whole, and so they would have a very rigid kind of reaction.
(04:38):
If anybody started to question or didn't share those beliefs, it
really was seen as a threat to their identity, and so it got this very intolerant us
versus them response. He wanted people to really go
through the uncomfortable work of having to question what they believe in.
So they'd come out the other end with a deep, strong foundation, a
mature foundation of identity. And now when people start to question
(05:00):
or say, why do you do that, or they don't share that belief, it's actually
responded to with this great tolerance, right, this incredible inclusivity. And
so when I see people go through that process, I see their leadership skills take
off, I see them become much more inclusive, tolerant, and
you know, when people do question instead of that being quickly shut down or
(05:22):
Well, in your story reminded me of there's
a book I read last year called Psychology of Money. And in that,
the author talks about these two brothers who grew up in
the same situation, obviously the same family, and
how they responded to their growing their their environment
as they grew up. So one became very successful and took his home
(05:44):
environment as he grew up and said, hey, that's I'm not going to be that I'm
going to define myself outside of that. and the other person looked
at it and was like, well, I'm never going to amount to anything because this is
my true self. So that completely aligns with
what you're saying around having to really think
through what is authentic for yourself and
(06:05):
being able to defend it. That extra layer,
I think, is what to me kind of
stands out as being able to have those tough conversations with other
Yeah, yeah, so well said so many of the leaders that we worked
with, you was we got a chance to re engage with them and going to the
(06:26):
next workshop and doing our quarterly engagements. You know, they
often took those worksheets and those exercises to their teams.
And they realized they said, you know, here we were leading based off of what was
important to us, we had never taken the time to ask them what was important to
them. And as we got to have that conversation, you know, all of
a sudden, it was, you Not only did they connect on a deeper level, but
(06:47):
now they understood what really truly motivated that person, which is powerful
Yeah, so you have a concept that you've been talking about called
the True North Blueprint. I wondered if you could share a little bit more
Yeah, yeah. And just to quickly show
that, I think it's important to differentiate between true north and magnetic north.
(07:08):
And it's something really I just discovered in the last couple of years. But true
north is a set location, right? It is something that
remains very consistent, constant, and stable over a
long period of time. A magnetic north, well, certainly
reliable if you're hiking or something like that. But it's constantly changing
and shifting based off the electromagnetic field of the environment. What
(07:29):
I found was that a lot of people I worked with, they were
living through that magnetic north perspective, where
who they were was constantly shifting depending on what environment, what
people they were around, if they were in the boardroom versus, you
know, at home or wherever it was. And it's exhausting. It undermines
trust, right? Because people can see these little shifts or variations. But
(07:52):
when you help people to define this sense of true north that remains very consistent,
no matter where you're at, all of a sudden, not only does it allow you
to have to make less decisions throughout the day, make higher level
decisions, but it really helps to build incredible trust. So
we start from this foundation of the kind of authenticity is
being the true north, but helping to define those those values, that
(08:14):
sense of purpose, as the individual, the leaders we work with, but
also for the company, what is the true north of the organization? And then
how do those align? If you can't create alignment between those two,
you know, Fundamentally, I think you're going to see a high level
of disengagement, burnout. I think you probably know what some of
those national statistics on those are. They're staggering numbers
(08:35):
right now. But what we've seen is that when you
can help to create that alignment, the individuals have a strong, really
clear understanding of what their personal true north is. And then they
can clearly make that connection with the true north of the organization. And all
of a sudden, we see, I'm going to say I'm on a mission to eliminate burnout.
I don't know that we'll ever get to a 0% burnout rate, but I'd love
(08:57):
to see it certainly at least cut in half to roughly about 50% right
now. And certainly disengagement, too,
is to see people highly engaged in the workplace, knowing that they love the
work. It's filled with meaning and purpose and impact that they really care about.
Well, and when your values don't align to the values of
a company or your team, there's always
(09:19):
going to be conflict there because, you know, I think naturally we want
to kind of bring our values to life and they just don't align. It's
not going to work. How do you think that this approach has maybe
disrupted our traditional view of leadership development? I'm
putting on my HR hat and, you know, we're all, I feel like
one of the trends we've been all talking about the last couple years is how do we really
(09:42):
ramp up our leadership development from that middle manager perspective. And
there's like, you know, there's the typical leadership competencies that you
talk about, and I'm sure authenticity ends up in one of them. But your
description makes me feel like maybe this is a little bit of a disruptive approach to
Well, I appreciate that. I think it really is that holistic nature
is what we see a lot of times, is we see resources.
(10:06):
Often, I feel like middle management sometimes does get not
as much training. I think we certainly see
the C-suite and get money allocated for
them to do things. We see a lot of
the pizza parties, the bowling trips, and things like that. Those
things might be fun. but they're not ultimately what push culture,
(10:28):
right? They're not the things. And so we're really talking about coming in
and helping to shift culture and to create
something that is holistic. So from top
down to bottom up and meeting right in the middle is
that we're providing resources for everyone to be able to define those
true north for them. And then being able to make sure
(10:49):
that the work they do, you know, we focus too on the idea of intrinsic motivation.
How do we help people to really be able to clearly say the
three levers of intrinsic motivation, autonomy, competency, and
purpose? If you can figure out how to light those three levers
up for someone, you will see someone that is capable of operating at
incredible capacities with very little likelihood of ever burning
(11:11):
out. because they're doing work that they love
to do every day. It's amazing when you help people to
really give language to that. What you see, even
sometimes people who either are on the cusp of burnout or people who
are described as difficult to motivate, suddenly they're the
most motivated person in the room. It's really incredible when
(11:32):
you start to provide tools. I think a
challenge that we've seen a lot of times is, We do have
a digital version of True North, and we have offered that
sometimes. People want to know infinite scalability.
Can we remove the coaching angle from it? But
you're missing out so much in doing that. And if you're not changing
(11:54):
culture, even as we come in and teach True North and resilience, but
it's a toxic culture. We help someone at
the lower levels or mid-levels to become more authentic and
be more resilient, but the culture hasn't changed because the upper leadership
hasn't changed. Well, now they're just trying to be resilient to
toxicity. That's not going to ever change anything. That's
(12:15):
why you see record amounts of money being spent in
the learning and development space, in the mental health space, But unfortunately,
we're not seeing the ultimate results to that, the
And your unique perspective as a clinical psychologist brings
something completely new to, I think, the discussion because
(12:36):
you're backing your findings on years
of research that truly supports
those ideas. Things like positive psychology and
cognitive behavioral therapy and those types of techniques. How
have you wrapped those concepts into this work
(12:56):
Yeah, I think so much of what I'm doing is certainly
influenced by, I think, the positive psychology in Seligman
and the amazing work he's done along with so many that have followed
him. We put together some
of the stuff around intrinsic motivation is based off of self-determination
theory, and then Dan Pink and the work he did with Drive, which
(13:18):
is, I think, just such a phenomenal book. But
I think looking at, coming at things from a strengths-based perspective, I
love coming at things and really helping. Again, we're
working with a team, but understanding what is foundationally the
strengths that you guys start from. Yes, there are areas that
(13:38):
you might be struggling in. We can certainly address where there might be
holes or challenges, and we put together, I think, great
strategies. But if you can't fundamentally start from a place of
saying, what do you guys do really well? We just did a
workshop, I think I said Jamaica, and we
did an inventory of 2024. And interestingly,
(13:58):
it was before we set kind of a year vision for
2025, a full one year blueprint for 2025. And
a lot of the people there had never done anything like that before. But
just the ability to take the time to acknowledge victories. Some
of the conversations that took place out of that were amazing. What
things did they want to carry forward from 2024 as a foundation of
(14:20):
success? What things did they want to leave behind? That was
also an interesting conversation. But that ability to start from
a place of celebrating victories. There's research around
that. It's actually extremely important to celebrate small
little victories on a daily basis. It's a great way to keep a
team resilient and highly motivated, and yet so many teams fail
(14:41):
to do simple things like that, that positive psychology really illustrates
Well, I'm sure our listeners feel this way. I know that in HR, we're
so inundated with the next project, the next thing, you
know, supporting our business partners. Sometimes we just don't
even think about it. Like you said, we don't think about doing that recognition piece,
even though we know, we know we need it. We know it's
(15:03):
important. We encourage our managers and leaders to do it. But you're
right. We don't take the time to do it ourselves. I was talking to
another person on the podcast just recently, and he was talking about he
does a end of the day, you know, three things that he's grateful for.
And I think that concept is just, if you can start bringing
that into your own life and really thinking about, you know, you don't have to go super
(15:24):
deep, right? What are the three things today that, you know, you're grateful for?
It just reframes how you're thinking about
things. And I liked when you shared, you know, what are the things that you're going
to leave in 2024? And what are the things you're going to take with you? You
didn't frame it as the, you know, what are the things that really sucked in
2024? And we're not going to do anymore, right? You took a different perspective on
(15:45):
it. And I think that's so important to start to
reframe that and start to have those different conversations. I do
want to ask kind of a difficult question, I think, next, because
I'm thinking about implementing this inside of an organization, really
shifting that focus to being authentic, you
know, having a positive outlook. How do you address leaders
(16:06):
when you notice that they're wearing masks, that they're
being inauthentic, that they're not showing up in
their strengths? What does that talk track look like? Because it's
different than, hey, your performance isn't where I
Yeah, I think it certainly speaks to the importance of having,
hopefully, developed a relationship with those managers, right? Demonstrating
(16:30):
that we care, that we come in, and that might seem like something that's
kind of a low bar to set, but it's amazing when people feel
sincerely, authentically cared for, what
types of conversations that you can have and how deep
you can go. While that might seem like
a low bar again, What I've seen is, unfortunately, especially
(16:51):
at big companies, like you said, there's always the next project. There's
always an emphasis on hitting those KPIs and all these different things. When
a leader or a consultant or any of those things in HR comes
in, and they really genuinely care about someone, you
can have very honest conversations. even have tough conversations.
(17:13):
You're seeing things that may be difficult to hear, but when they can sense that
that's done in the light of someone being cared for
in their best interest, it's amazing how well those conversations
can go and the growth that can happen out of them. To me, that's always
fundamentally and foundationally. If I'm not starting there, and certainly
I've missed a few steps, but I think that in
(17:34):
reminding myself going into those and having their values right
as a foundation to start from to really allows me to
go into that conversation saying hey look you know we
went through this conversation and these are the things that you self-identified and
here's how you describe them you know here's what we're seeing
is that you know there's there's a misalignment here and so
(17:55):
a lot of times helping to reflect back on their own discoveries
in their own language really helps them, I think, to be
able to both take some responsibility around
As you were talking, I was thinking about how I've
seen this practice come to life in my own life. I have
three sons, those who listen know. They're all grown
(18:18):
now, but often I would use a similar tactic as
they were growing up when I had to have tough conversations with them. As you
do as a parent, you know, as you're trying to walk them
through life lessons. And I would always start with, hey, we're
going to have a really awkward five-minute conversation. It's going to be awkward
for me. It's going to be awkward for you. We have to have it
because I care about you. And they always went well. Were they
(18:41):
awkward? Absolutely they were awkward. But I
think you can have some of that same kind of courage and that mentality
and using the values you've already talked about, then
you're going into the conversation speaking the language of the other person and
sharing a shared vocabulary that you've come up with. So
(19:01):
Well, I want to mention too, I love the way that you handled that too. And
say, you know, I got two, I got a nine year old and 11 year old, so I was taking notes
there. But sometimes setting a limit to say we're
going to have a five minute, right, or whatever, knowing
that there's going to be an end to it. Hey, we're going to dive deep and it's
going to be uncomfortable, but we're going to come out of it, right? And after
(19:21):
that, maybe we're going to share a laugh or we're going to have, you know, things
will go positive again. But it's amazing too, when
you set parameters, kind of boundaries around something, how
much more effective that those difficult conversations can be. So I
Oh, thanks. As we wrap our conversation, I'd love to
get your perspective on what trends or shifts do
(19:44):
you think are going to happen in the H.R. development space,
especially with your clinical background? There's just
so much fascinating research out there, and it's continuing to
evolve as we learn more and more about how the human brain works. And, you
know, the things we know today were not the same things that maybe even 20 years
ago we approached from a clinical perspective. How do you think
(20:08):
Yeah, it's a great question. I see two responses
to that. One, I'm going to stick with authenticity. I
think with the increasing use of AI, it's here
to stay, and it brings some incredible tools. I
was a little slow to initially adopt, and now I've jumped
in and really appreciate how it's really helped me to be
(20:29):
more efficient, and there's some great aspects and uses to
it. But one thing AI can't do is it lacks authenticity. And
so I think that ability for a workplace to
really establish that authentic culture is going to allow them
to stand out as more and more potentially tasks
will be picked up by AI. I think that need for people to
(20:51):
have that sense of, you know, Connecting to things that
are real, having that human component, I think is
really going to set companies out that are attracting the
greatest talent and retaining talent versus those that aren't. And
I think adaptability is another thing. There's just so much change, especially
happening literally right now. But,
(21:13):
you know, you throw into that just the quick pace of business
and how quickly things are growing, evolving with
technology and everything else, the ability to have cultures
that adapt, you know, whether you call that resilience, agility, but
to have tools in place and to equip leaders to
lead. We've talked about a lot of times in our workshops that
(21:35):
are between cows and buffaloes. Have you ever heard the difference between how
Apparently, cows, when they sense a storm is coming, their natural inclination is
to start to try and run away. But they're not the fleetest of hoofs, so
in their desire to avoid, the storm
catches up and they spend the maximum amount of time in the
(21:57):
bad weather. Buffalo, on the other hand, One, they
gather together as a herd, right? So they know that there's strength in numbers, and
they can also protect those that need protection. But
then they immediately head into the storm. And so in doing that, they
get through it in the most efficient way possible. And
so a lot of times we talk, and people hear this in our workshops, and they get all
(22:18):
riled up, we're gonna be buffaloes. But if you don't know what makes you a buffalo,
oftentimes you will run into things, and you'll be more like a bull in a china shop,
right? You're gonna go in, and you're gonna create more chaos. But
when you really are able to clearly say, I know the things that make me resilient. I
know the values that I anchor to during difficult times that help me
to be more adaptive and be more agile. It's amazing
(22:39):
how people start leaning into difficult conversations, change,
growth so much quicker. And for the leaders that do
that, it gives the message to everyone that they're leading. Hey, change
is not a bad thing, right? We're going to get through this together. And
it's amazing how they start to adapt and grow and thrive
(23:01):
Well, very inspiring. If somebody is
listening and they want to know more about you, your program and the work
Yeah, I think right now, we're just about ready to switch to a different website.
But it's probably the best place is to just send me an email at
Dr. Andy, D-R-A-N-D-Y at
(23:24):
Awesome. Well, again, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day
Yeah, sure. I really appreciate the questions and the conversation. So
I had high expectations and it even matched
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
(23:44):
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel,
well, like work. Now, your host,
Joining me on the podcast today is Dr. Andy Garrett, a strategic growth
consultant, coach, and clinical psychologist at AG Thrive. With
(00:24):
a foundation in positive psychology and holistic integration, he
blends coaching and clinical expertise to help people and organizations become
Yeah, I'm so happy to be here and excited for this conversation. I
(00:45):
know the questions that you sent over were
great questions. So I'm very excited to get into them
Ah, yes, I can't wait. And we're going to start with not
an easy one, because you Your space and
the work you do really revolves around thriving
(01:06):
and having an authentic identity. So maybe we can start there.
How do you define authentic identity and why has it kind
of become the foundation, you think, to personal and professional growth?
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I saw a post from Simon Sinek the
other day about the three, you know, great stuff as
always with Simon, but he identified courage, integrity
(01:27):
and communication as the three best leadership skills. And I
did respond to that and said that, Ultimately, I think authenticity is
the most important leadership skill. Courage,
integrity, and communication suggest that maybe those are
natural skills that people have, certainly the things that people can work
on. But what I appreciate about authenticity is that it's someone operating
(01:48):
in their truest nature. So really, as
far as character strengths go, it is the ultimate umbrella character
strength, because it's someone having the self-awareness to be able to
operate. And I think where maybe my definition differs
from the way that I often see it used, I've seen research that
suggests authenticity really should be thought of as a moral concept
(02:10):
or kind of a values-related concept. And so, when people
are operating outside of authenticity, oftentimes it's
because they're out of alignment with their values. And so, when you help
them to get really clear, both in being able to articulate
what their values are, what their guiding principles are, and then
be able to understand why those are so important to them and how they
(02:32):
live that out or how they operate that in the workspace, It's
amazing to see, right? And then, of course, understand what their strengths
are and, you know, what they're motivated by. But when you start to
operate, now you have someone who is operating with
autonomy, right? They're operating in their strength zone, and
you're seeing them operate in their greatest capacity. And so, to
(02:53):
me, if you can have a whole team full of people operating in that, you're
going to see them maximize their potential and really operate at full
Well, and it's so true, the idea around finding your values
and what motivates you. I am surprised at how
often I talk to managers or leaders or people who are, you know, trying to
(03:13):
take that next step and you have that conversation about, you know, you brought
up Simon Sinek. So like, what's your why or what motivates you or
where are your values? And they've never done that values exercise.
Oh, yeah, yeah, we just did a workshop in
Oregon, and we did one in Jamaica, it's filled with all
(03:35):
C suite leaders, and some of them had done but
by and large, the majority had not, or maybe they took
some assessment that, you know, some online thing that
spit out a, you know, a set of answers. I think
one of the things that I'm sure maybe that you've done and
that we do is, you know, really force them to have to choose
(03:56):
their values in their own language. And then have to, again, really
give that definition that there was a James Fowler was a
actually a theologian, but he came up with a concept of identity,
an identity model. It's since been used in a bunch of
identity constructs, and the reason I mentioned him real quick is
that he saw identity existing on a spectrum from most mature
(04:17):
to least mature. He said that when people had taken on their
identity from their environment, whether it was from their
family of origin, from their culture, from society, church,
wherever it might be, but they didn't take the time to chew on it to say, well, is
this even actually what I believe? That they swallowed those
beliefs whole, and so they would have a very rigid kind of reaction.
(04:38):
If anybody started to question or didn't share those beliefs, it
really was seen as a threat to their identity, and so it got this very intolerant us
versus them response. He wanted people to really go
through the uncomfortable work of having to question what they believe in.
So they'd come out the other end with a deep, strong foundation, a
mature foundation of identity. And now when people start to question
(05:00):
or say, why do you do that, or they don't share that belief, it's actually
responded to with this great tolerance, right, this incredible inclusivity. And
so when I see people go through that process, I see their leadership skills take
off, I see them become much more inclusive, tolerant, and
you know, when people do question instead of that being quickly shut down or
(05:22):
Well, in your story reminded me of there's
a book I read last year called Psychology of Money. And in that,
the author talks about these two brothers who grew up in
the same situation, obviously the same family, and
how they responded to their growing their their environment
as they grew up. So one became very successful and took his home
(05:44):
environment as he grew up and said, hey, that's I'm not going to be that I'm
going to define myself outside of that. and the other person looked
at it and was like, well, I'm never going to amount to anything because this is
my true self. So that completely aligns with
what you're saying around having to really think
through what is authentic for yourself and
(06:05):
being able to defend it. That extra layer,
I think, is what to me kind of
stands out as being able to have those tough conversations with other
Yeah, yeah, so well said so many of the leaders that we worked
with, you was we got a chance to re engage with them and going to the
(06:26):
next workshop and doing our quarterly engagements. You know, they
often took those worksheets and those exercises to their teams.
And they realized they said, you know, here we were leading based off of what was
important to us, we had never taken the time to ask them what was important to
them. And as we got to have that conversation, you know, all of
a sudden, it was, you Not only did they connect on a deeper level, but
(06:47):
now they understood what really truly motivated that person, which is powerful
Yeah, so you have a concept that you've been talking about called
the True North Blueprint. I wondered if you could share a little bit more
Yeah, yeah. And just to quickly show
that, I think it's important to differentiate between true north and magnetic north.
(07:08):
And it's something really I just discovered in the last couple of years. But true
north is a set location, right? It is something that
remains very consistent, constant, and stable over a
long period of time. A magnetic north, well, certainly
reliable if you're hiking or something like that. But it's constantly changing
and shifting based off the electromagnetic field of the environment. What
(07:29):
I found was that a lot of people I worked with, they were
living through that magnetic north perspective, where
who they were was constantly shifting depending on what environment, what
people they were around, if they were in the boardroom versus, you
know, at home or wherever it was. And it's exhausting. It undermines
trust, right? Because people can see these little shifts or variations. But
(07:52):
when you help people to define this sense of true north that remains very consistent,
no matter where you're at, all of a sudden, not only does it allow you
to have to make less decisions throughout the day, make higher level
decisions, but it really helps to build incredible trust. So
we start from this foundation of the kind of authenticity is
being the true north, but helping to define those those values, that
(08:14):
sense of purpose, as the individual, the leaders we work with, but
also for the company, what is the true north of the organization? And then
how do those align? If you can't create alignment between those two,
you know, Fundamentally, I think you're going to see a high level
of disengagement, burnout. I think you probably know what some of
those national statistics on those are. They're staggering numbers
(08:35):
right now. But what we've seen is that when you
can help to create that alignment, the individuals have a strong, really
clear understanding of what their personal true north is. And then they
can clearly make that connection with the true north of the organization. And all
of a sudden, we see, I'm going to say I'm on a mission to eliminate burnout.
I don't know that we'll ever get to a 0% burnout rate, but I'd love
(08:57):
to see it certainly at least cut in half to roughly about 50% right
now. And certainly disengagement, too,
is to see people highly engaged in the workplace, knowing that they love the
work. It's filled with meaning and purpose and impact that they really care about.
Well, and when your values don't align to the values of
a company or your team, there's always
(09:19):
going to be conflict there because, you know, I think naturally we want
to kind of bring our values to life and they just don't align. It's
not going to work. How do you think that this approach has maybe
disrupted our traditional view of leadership development? I'm
putting on my HR hat and, you know, we're all, I feel like
one of the trends we've been all talking about the last couple years is how do we really
(09:42):
ramp up our leadership development from that middle manager perspective. And
there's like, you know, there's the typical leadership competencies that you
talk about, and I'm sure authenticity ends up in one of them. But your
description makes me feel like maybe this is a little bit of a disruptive approach to
Well, I appreciate that. I think it really is that holistic nature
is what we see a lot of times, is we see resources.
(10:06):
Often, I feel like middle management sometimes does get not
as much training. I think we certainly see
the C-suite and get money allocated for
them to do things. We see a lot of
the pizza parties, the bowling trips, and things like that. Those
things might be fun. but they're not ultimately what push culture,
(10:28):
right? They're not the things. And so we're really talking about coming in
and helping to shift culture and to create
something that is holistic. So from top
down to bottom up and meeting right in the middle is
that we're providing resources for everyone to be able to define those
true north for them. And then being able to make sure
(10:49):
that the work they do, you know, we focus too on the idea of intrinsic motivation.
How do we help people to really be able to clearly say the
three levers of intrinsic motivation, autonomy, competency, and
purpose? If you can figure out how to light those three levers
up for someone, you will see someone that is capable of operating at
incredible capacities with very little likelihood of ever burning
(11:11):
out. because they're doing work that they love
to do every day. It's amazing when you help people to
really give language to that. What you see, even
sometimes people who either are on the cusp of burnout or people who
are described as difficult to motivate, suddenly they're the
most motivated person in the room. It's really incredible when
(11:32):
you start to provide tools. I think a
challenge that we've seen a lot of times is, We do have
a digital version of True North, and we have offered that
sometimes. People want to know infinite scalability.
Can we remove the coaching angle from it? But
you're missing out so much in doing that. And if you're not changing
(11:54):
culture, even as we come in and teach True North and resilience, but
it's a toxic culture. We help someone at
the lower levels or mid-levels to become more authentic and
be more resilient, but the culture hasn't changed because the upper leadership
hasn't changed. Well, now they're just trying to be resilient to
toxicity. That's not going to ever change anything. That's
(12:15):
why you see record amounts of money being spent in
the learning and development space, in the mental health space, But unfortunately,
we're not seeing the ultimate results to that, the
And your unique perspective as a clinical psychologist brings
something completely new to, I think, the discussion because
(12:36):
you're backing your findings on years
of research that truly supports
those ideas. Things like positive psychology and
cognitive behavioral therapy and those types of techniques. How
have you wrapped those concepts into this work
(12:56):
Yeah, I think so much of what I'm doing is certainly
influenced by, I think, the positive psychology in Seligman
and the amazing work he's done along with so many that have followed
him. We put together some
of the stuff around intrinsic motivation is based off of self-determination
theory, and then Dan Pink and the work he did with Drive, which
(13:18):
is, I think, just such a phenomenal book. But
I think looking at, coming at things from a strengths-based perspective, I
love coming at things and really helping. Again, we're
working with a team, but understanding what is foundationally the
strengths that you guys start from. Yes, there are areas that
(13:38):
you might be struggling in. We can certainly address where there might be
holes or challenges, and we put together, I think, great
strategies. But if you can't fundamentally start from a place of
saying, what do you guys do really well? We just did a
workshop, I think I said Jamaica, and we
did an inventory of 2024. And interestingly,
(13:58):
it was before we set kind of a year vision for
2025, a full one year blueprint for 2025. And
a lot of the people there had never done anything like that before. But
just the ability to take the time to acknowledge victories. Some
of the conversations that took place out of that were amazing. What
things did they want to carry forward from 2024 as a foundation of
(14:20):
success? What things did they want to leave behind? That was
also an interesting conversation. But that ability to start from
a place of celebrating victories. There's research around
that. It's actually extremely important to celebrate small
little victories on a daily basis. It's a great way to keep a
team resilient and highly motivated, and yet so many teams fail
(14:41):
to do simple things like that, that positive psychology really illustrates
Well, I'm sure our listeners feel this way. I know that in HR, we're
so inundated with the next project, the next thing, you
know, supporting our business partners. Sometimes we just don't
even think about it. Like you said, we don't think about doing that recognition piece,
even though we know, we know we need it. We know it's
(15:03):
important. We encourage our managers and leaders to do it. But you're
right. We don't take the time to do it ourselves. I was talking to
another person on the podcast just recently, and he was talking about he
does a end of the day, you know, three things that he's grateful for.
And I think that concept is just, if you can start bringing
that into your own life and really thinking about, you know, you don't have to go super
(15:24):
deep, right? What are the three things today that, you know, you're grateful for?
It just reframes how you're thinking about
things. And I liked when you shared, you know, what are the things that you're going
to leave in 2024? And what are the things you're going to take with you? You
didn't frame it as the, you know, what are the things that really sucked in
2024? And we're not going to do anymore, right? You took a different perspective on
(15:45):
it. And I think that's so important to start to
reframe that and start to have those different conversations. I do
want to ask kind of a difficult question, I think, next, because
I'm thinking about implementing this inside of an organization, really
shifting that focus to being authentic, you
know, having a positive outlook. How do you address leaders
(16:06):
when you notice that they're wearing masks, that they're
being inauthentic, that they're not showing up in
their strengths? What does that talk track look like? Because it's
different than, hey, your performance isn't where I
Yeah, I think it certainly speaks to the importance of having,
hopefully, developed a relationship with those managers, right? Demonstrating
(16:30):
that we care, that we come in, and that might seem like something that's
kind of a low bar to set, but it's amazing when people feel
sincerely, authentically cared for, what
types of conversations that you can have and how deep
you can go. While that might seem like
a low bar again, What I've seen is, unfortunately, especially
(16:51):
at big companies, like you said, there's always the next project. There's
always an emphasis on hitting those KPIs and all these different things. When
a leader or a consultant or any of those things in HR comes
in, and they really genuinely care about someone, you
can have very honest conversations. even have tough conversations.
(17:13):
You're seeing things that may be difficult to hear, but when they can sense that
that's done in the light of someone being cared for
in their best interest, it's amazing how well those conversations
can go and the growth that can happen out of them. To me, that's always
fundamentally and foundationally. If I'm not starting there, and certainly
I've missed a few steps, but I think that in
(17:34):
reminding myself going into those and having their values right
as a foundation to start from to really allows me to
go into that conversation saying hey look you know we
went through this conversation and these are the things that you self-identified and
here's how you describe them you know here's what we're seeing
is that you know there's there's a misalignment here and so
(17:55):
a lot of times helping to reflect back on their own discoveries
in their own language really helps them, I think, to be
able to both take some responsibility around
As you were talking, I was thinking about how I've
seen this practice come to life in my own life. I have
three sons, those who listen know. They're all grown
(18:18):
now, but often I would use a similar tactic as
they were growing up when I had to have tough conversations with them. As you
do as a parent, you know, as you're trying to walk them
through life lessons. And I would always start with, hey, we're
going to have a really awkward five-minute conversation. It's going to be awkward
for me. It's going to be awkward for you. We have to have it
because I care about you. And they always went well. Were they
(18:41):
awkward? Absolutely they were awkward. But I
think you can have some of that same kind of courage and that mentality
and using the values you've already talked about, then
you're going into the conversation speaking the language of the other person and
sharing a shared vocabulary that you've come up with. So
(19:01):
Well, I want to mention too, I love the way that you handled that too. And
say, you know, I got two, I got a nine year old and 11 year old, so I was taking notes
there. But sometimes setting a limit to say we're
going to have a five minute, right, or whatever, knowing
that there's going to be an end to it. Hey, we're going to dive deep and it's
going to be uncomfortable, but we're going to come out of it, right? And after
(19:21):
that, maybe we're going to share a laugh or we're going to have, you know, things
will go positive again. But it's amazing too, when
you set parameters, kind of boundaries around something, how
much more effective that those difficult conversations can be. So I
Oh, thanks. As we wrap our conversation, I'd love to
get your perspective on what trends or shifts do
(19:44):
you think are going to happen in the H.R. development space,
especially with your clinical background? There's just
so much fascinating research out there, and it's continuing to
evolve as we learn more and more about how the human brain works. And, you
know, the things we know today were not the same things that maybe even 20 years
ago we approached from a clinical perspective. How do you think
(20:08):
Yeah, it's a great question. I see two responses
to that. One, I'm going to stick with authenticity. I
think with the increasing use of AI, it's here
to stay, and it brings some incredible tools. I
was a little slow to initially adopt, and now I've jumped
in and really appreciate how it's really helped me to be
(20:29):
more efficient, and there's some great aspects and uses to
it. But one thing AI can't do is it lacks authenticity. And
so I think that ability for a workplace to
really establish that authentic culture is going to allow them
to stand out as more and more potentially tasks
will be picked up by AI. I think that need for people to
(20:51):
have that sense of, you know, Connecting to things that
are real, having that human component, I think is
really going to set companies out that are attracting the
greatest talent and retaining talent versus those that aren't. And
I think adaptability is another thing. There's just so much change, especially
happening literally right now. But,
(21:13):
you know, you throw into that just the quick pace of business
and how quickly things are growing, evolving with
technology and everything else, the ability to have cultures
that adapt, you know, whether you call that resilience, agility, but
to have tools in place and to equip leaders to
lead. We've talked about a lot of times in our workshops that
(21:35):
are between cows and buffaloes. Have you ever heard the difference between how
Apparently, cows, when they sense a storm is coming, their natural inclination is
to start to try and run away. But they're not the fleetest of hoofs, so
in their desire to avoid, the storm
catches up and they spend the maximum amount of time in the
(21:57):
bad weather. Buffalo, on the other hand, One, they
gather together as a herd, right? So they know that there's strength in numbers, and
they can also protect those that need protection. But
then they immediately head into the storm. And so in doing that, they
get through it in the most efficient way possible. And
so a lot of times we talk, and people hear this in our workshops, and they get all
(22:18):
riled up, we're gonna be buffaloes. But if you don't know what makes you a buffalo,
oftentimes you will run into things, and you'll be more like a bull in a china shop,
right? You're gonna go in, and you're gonna create more chaos. But
when you really are able to clearly say, I know the things that make me resilient. I
know the values that I anchor to during difficult times that help me
to be more adaptive and be more agile. It's amazing
(22:39):
how people start leaning into difficult conversations, change,
growth so much quicker. And for the leaders that do
that, it gives the message to everyone that they're leading. Hey, change
is not a bad thing, right? We're going to get through this together. And
it's amazing how they start to adapt and grow and thrive
(23:01):
Well, very inspiring. If somebody is
listening and they want to know more about you, your program and the work
Yeah, I think right now, we're just about ready to switch to a different website.
But it's probably the best place is to just send me an email at
Dr. Andy, D-R-A-N-D-Y at
(23:24):
Awesome. Well, again, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day
Yeah, sure. I really appreciate the questions and the conversation. So
I had high expectations and it even matched
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
(23:44):
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
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