February 18, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of the "HR Mixtape," host Shari Simpson welcomes Sarah Katherine Schmidt, VP of Customer Experience at PeopleLogic, to discuss the transformative approach of agile performance management. With over 16 years of experience in HR and customer experience, Sarah shares insights on how to shift from traditional performance reviews to a more continuous feedback model that fosters growth and engagement.
Key Takeaways:
- Real-Time Feedback Loops: Learn how implementing continuous performance management can enhance employee engagement and performance.
- Cultural Shift: Discover the importance of psychological safety and a growth mindset in creating an environment ripe for agile performance management. 3
- Practical Steps: Gain actionable strategies for initiating a successful transition to agile performance management, including starting small and measuring results.
Tune in for valuable insights that can help reshape your organization's performance management practices!
Guest(s): Sarah Katherine Schmidt, VP of Customer Experience, PeopleLogic
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape, your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel,
well, like work. Now, your host,
Joining me today is Sarah Katherine Schmidt, VP of
Customer Experience at PeopleLogic. She has 16 years
(00:24):
of experience in HR and customer experience, focusing on
Sarah Katherine, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Of course. Thank you, Shari, for the opportunity. Excited to chat with you. So
we were just talking a little bit offline about our own kind of journeys
(00:46):
on how we ended up where we are today. I'd love if maybe you
could share just a little bit about your journey and how you got
to this place where you're focusing on performance management.
Sure, absolutely. Having been in HR and
people operations roles for the last 15 years, I've
led traditional performance management processes more
(01:08):
than I would like to admit. I've
transitioned into an HR tech company as the VP of customer
experience over services, as well as helping our customers. I
recognized, you know, as I was making the transition, you
know, it's just been super painful to be
in the space of traditional performance management. And as
(01:31):
a mindset coach, I knew that we needed to have a growth mindset about
performance management. And so, you know, I was,
I've pushed so many rocks up a hill around agile performance management
or around traditional performance management. I just know that
there has to be a better way. And so that's why we developed the 12 Agile
Performance Management Principles, so that there's not that
(01:53):
discomfort and arduous review process. It's
And if you're from a tech company, you will know how much we talk about
agile mindsets and agile approaches to things. So
Sure, so agile performance management is about real-time
(02:15):
feedback loops and continuous performance management versus point-in-time
performance management. And it's a cultural shift
that takes time and effort. And so it's
really about these real-time feedback loops that you
can see an uptick in performance. You can see that people are
(02:35):
more engaged. And so it's all about having those conversations
more frequently being communicative, creating psychologically
safe environments for people to actually share openly and
honestly, and to experience more feedback more
frequently and promote growth
(02:56):
How did that align with employee expectations and
leadership expectations around the dreaded
annual performance review? If you're doing these consistent feedback
loops, which I think is great. I think we're all trying to strive to
do that in some way. But we always get stuck with this question, OK,
how do I make comp decisions? How do I rate people? How are
(03:21):
Sure. And what I say is those things still have to happen from
a fiscal responsibility perspective, right? We still need to
be able to plan for promotions and plan for salary increases.
But what we want to do is make those decisions
based on the growth that you've seen far, far longer
than just that point in time. It's really hard for us to go back
(03:42):
in our minds six or even 12 months. And so while it
needs to be an activity that's done so that you can make business decisions,
What you need to be able to lean on is this continuous thread
versus that thread that's just everybody giving
feedback all at once that you then have to analyze and decipher
and make decisions on. So the two go together
(04:06):
because they have to. But yes, leadership always has that mindset
of like, we've always done it this way. So that's where
So you had to make definitely some culture changes. You
talked about that a little bit already. What are those
pieces? If somebody's listening, they're like, hey, you know what? I really want
(04:27):
to move to a more agile, feed-forward, feedback-loop
way of doing performance management. What are the
baby steps they need to take to start building an environment where
leadership and managers, employees can be ripe for this kind
Yeah, absolutely. So I think there are some some
key points. So first and foremost, this transformation takes
(04:50):
time. And it's, you know, a consistent effort, which
is often hard for us to, you know, take two steps forward, take
one step back, but it's one of those growth mindset exercises. And
so that growth mindset really has to exist within the organization
in order for this to be a philosophy that's
nurtured. And so teams, you know, need to
(05:12):
embrace that belief and you've got to find your change champions within that
leadership team that are truly excited and they're going to
be your rah-rah super users, so
to speak. You know, psychological safety has to
exist. And so a lot of that comes down to the leadership, how
they're building psychologically safe teams, so that people
(05:33):
can feel like they can take risks and get constructive and
positive feedback more consistently. And then, you know,
what I love about agile performance management is it drives
trust and transparency and it drives collaborative leadership.
And those are things that must be true in order for
it to be successful. So communication is
(05:59):
What do you say to those managers who aren't necessarily
adept or comfortable at that constant feedback? I'm
sure you've run into this in your career. I know I have. I've been in that conversation
with a leader who said, hey, you know what, I think I need
to go down the road of a performance improvement plan or potentially
maybe think about exiting this employee, and you sit down with them and you're
(06:21):
like, all right, walk me through the conversations you've had with the employee.
And it'll be like one conversation six months ago and why
I told them. So there is managers
that need help understanding what constant feedback
Sure. So I think the first is to push through that fear of damaging
(06:43):
relationships, right? And you do that through structured
training, feedback techniques, best practices, and
getting them building that feedback muscle so that
they know they're not going to damage the relationship. If
they deliver feedback in a way that is meaningful and
actionable, they're actually going to build that relationship and that trust equity
(07:04):
even further. You know, there's often this, I
don't have time, right? And that speaks to your example that
I have heard so much, right? I don't have time to document, I
don't have time to have these conversations that are really, really hard. Or
there's just uncertainty about timing of those conversations. And
so you have to sort of give them a blueprint and a
(07:25):
template for what your expectation is, but also how
that conversation can be really fruitful and
not necessarily just managing someone out. And so
there's practicing through role-playing that needs to happen. There's,
you know, pairing with mentors that can happen, but
ultimately you've got to break through that fear of damaging the relationship
(07:52):
Well, and it's changing the view of what, we
need a new word besides feedback. I really hate that word. I don't
know if I said that on the podcast before, but I just think
it's not what we're doing. We're not giving people feedback. We're helping
them look forward and make the transitions that they need to make going
forward. Because the things that they already did in the past are done.
(08:14):
They can't go back and fix them. So if you and I come
up with a new word at some point, I will make sure to share it. But
as you think about, you know, that idea of a
feed forward and the business aspect of
being able to measure where our talent is at, how
did that change your view of KPIs or metrics
(08:39):
It's a great question. I don't know that it changed what I track. I
just pay more attention to it from a quantitative and qualitative perspective.
And I think the frequency by which you look
at that feedback has to change. And so if you're having these
continuous conversations, then you need to continuously be looking at
your data and what it's telling you. Because if it's
(09:00):
truly continuous performance management, your
frequency of conversation should be higher. Your manager should
be having those frequent conversations about growth and performance. And
you should be making sure that those are really valuable one-on-ones. And
so we look at those objectives or those
KPIs regularly. It just needs to be more continuous and
(09:21):
we need to be paying attention to it, greater attention to
it. I also look at goal attainment a
lot more regularly now. Yes, we're setting annual
or quarterly KPIs or OKRs, but
let's look at goal attainment more so on a
biweekly basis or a monthly basis. Let's look
(09:41):
to see how those goals are tying to skill improvement. So
putting some of those pieces together versus one
KPI, two KPIs, three KPIs. Let's meld them into
something that is telling us really valuable information about, okay,
this individual is having more frequent conversations. They're attaining their
goals. We're seeing these skills being developed. Let's start to
(10:04):
pull that thread, right? And so you think about KPIs as this more living
So if you're like me, as you were talking through that,
all I kept thinking was, oh my gosh, so much more stuff for me to track.
How are you keeping your head around all of
the movement in your organization? I mean, it sounds fantastic,
(10:25):
right? To be able to know where somebody sits every week,
every two weeks. Where does the onus lie
Sure. So technology is really an enabler here, uh,
in terms of gathering that feedback, being able to report on it
in real time, a lot of our customers and I, I
(10:46):
love them. And this is what I love most about my job is I get to take them
from spreadsheets to superpowers. And so when we think about spreadsheets of
doom, we're helping them get into a platform that
is giving them those real time insights so that they can go and look in one
place versus looking in five different places. And. That's
real-time communication tools, that's performance tracking software,
(11:07):
right? We're trying to condense down. many different sources of
truth and information into one, ideally, separate
from your HRAS, probably, because that manages
a whole host of other things. But when you're looking at KPIs,
what you want to do is you want to have them in a central place
as much as possible so that you're not managing all of
(11:29):
these spreadsheets that can be overwhelming and
are overwhelming, right? So in terms of getting started,
that can be the first barrier is like, How do
I do this? How do I actually report on this? And it goes back to
being simple and getting to simplicity and
what you're measuring, how you're measuring
(11:53):
And the simplicity is so important. I think in HR, sometimes we
want perfection in the best way possible, right? We want to deliver excellence.
And so sometimes we get stuck in this. design space
where we're just iterating and iterating and it's not, it's never quite
right. So sometimes something as simple as, you
(12:15):
know, an emoji feedback, right? How are you feeling today?
Some of those kinds of things, right? Get real, real simple, but
Yes, absolutely. I always think about simplicity
and looking at friction. and the friction points in
your process for your employees, for your managers, for
yourselves, doing sort of this friction audit. And
(12:37):
where can you make it easier, more simplistic to
still get the insights that you need and for people to
still get the feedback and information that they're desiring of?
But can you make it fun? Can you make it easier to give that?
Can you make it less arduous to do these things? And
that's what simplicity is all about, is getting back to the
(13:03):
What do you say to the leader who's coming to you, who's
behind it, supportive of this approach, but
goes, hey, you know what, I'm just worried this approach is
going to backfire. It's either going to be too much feedback, or
maybe not the right feedback, or how do I balance my
one-on-ones now so that I'm giving you know, reward and
(13:23):
recognition, but also constructive criticism all at the same time.
How have you coached managers through kind of all those things
That's a lot of coaching and a lot of concerns. And I get
it because there can be unintended negative consequences if
you don't implement it thoughtfully. A lot of what I do
(13:44):
with managers is education and coaching. And so
we do talk about feedback fatigue, and we look
at what their feedback routine is today. and
figure out those points where they feel like it's too much, it's
not enough. What's crazy is
that the modern day workforce really wants feedback like
(14:05):
every seven days, right? And so as a manager, it's
like, oh my gosh, how do I give meaningful feedback every seven days? But
what I walk through is the assessment itself. So
what is your feedback assessment? Or what is your process for gathering
information and giving feedback? I talk
and coach through the anxiety and stress. And so it's
(14:28):
about being a partner and being there with them on that journey.
So it's not unfounded hesitation or
anxiety, because it can backfire. But
if you have strong, supportive partners around you and with you,
that helps ensure a little bit more success with switching
(14:49):
As you made this switch to a more continuous model, how
did feedback up change in your organization? I
asked that because I recently was at an
event and somebody had shared that they had a great leader
who is somebody that they're still connected with to this day. who the way that
they did their one-on-ones was, what
(15:11):
are three things that went really great this week? What are three things
that you need to improve or opportunities? And
then she would flip it and she would say, what are three things that I did
to support you this week? And what are three things that I did that didn't
help you or didn't help you unblock things as a leader? How
(15:31):
Sure. So it's about building that feedback muscle for individuals
as well. And you can't build that upward feedback muscle
without an extremely psychologically safe environment.
And so I think you have to reinforce you
know, what the expectation is, but also give employees the tools
and the techniques to give that feedback that's actionable. Everybody
(15:53):
wants actionable feedback. If I told you, Shari, you know, you're
not holding this interview in a way that is, you know,
consistent and a way that's helpful. What do
you what do you do with that? Right? And so you've got to to
train and coach and guide and mentor individuals up
and down the organization to give that feedback. I love those questions. I
(16:15):
used to always ask those questions as a manager. And oftentimes
I would get these blank stares. But
I want to know how I am doing just as much as you want to know how
you're doing because it's a partnership between the two of us. And my
goal is for you to be successful. And hopefully
your goal is for me to be successful as well because together, we
(16:38):
Have you seen some ancillary consequences
in a good way from this model? And some of the things I'm thinking about
are, you know, maybe you could spot burnout sooner, maybe
you could help reprioritize tasks that had,
you know, robust timelines that you realize you need to change, because
you're getting this feedback more often. You said it right there.
(17:03):
Yes, it creates that continuous improvement where employees
feel valued and supported and invested in their long-term success.
And that in and of itself has a physiological response
within our bodies such that we feel motivated to actually
go above and beyond. And so when we have those
positive physiological responses, then
(17:25):
we're less likely to get burned out because we've got all
the endorphins and the positive neurotransmitters going through our bodies.
That addressing of concerns and challenges before
a departure is truly key because if
you're addressing those, then ideally you're preventing burnout, you're
prioritizing work, right? You're connecting
(17:48):
with them on a deeper level and all of those things lead to greater
retention versus attrition. And
so those conversations, I can't underscore the
value of them being truthful and honest and
geared towards making sure that that individual is engaged and
I love that. A couple more questions before we
(18:12):
wrap up here. Does this model look
different in a fully remote or hybrid environment compared
I wouldn't say fully different, but there is that technology component
where it's enabling all of these continuous feedback loops to
actually happen. And so there's an extra attention to
(18:33):
things like emotional cues and nonverbal communication that
has to happen even more intently in
a remote or a hybrid organization or dynamic
because you have to compensate for those in-person interactions. Virtual
check-ins I love, even if they're just virtual coffee chats. I
(18:54):
can have a coffee chat with anyone. But scheduling those regularly to
check in with people obviously is a huge component of the continuous
feedback. Digital documentation has to happen versus
in-person documentation. Offering
asynchronous options to check in. I have
days still where I need to asynchronously check in with
(19:15):
my manager because I'm either deep in the weeds on something or
I need a technology break. And so offering
those asynchronous check-ins for those of us who get a little technology
depleted is really helpful. And then
if you're using communication tools that enable the virtual
communication and collaboration that is required of
(19:37):
continuous feedback, that takes a burden off of individuals
trying to do it via phone or type out
everything that they want to say, right? So it does look
different because It's that face-to-face dynamic that
you're compensating for. when you don't have them in
(19:58):
All right. So walk me through, step
by step, in the highest level possible, how
somebody goes about implementing this. Because you've mentioned
a couple of things, right? Culture change, psychological safety, training,
the coaching, the mentoring. What was the steps you walked through
to get to this final result? And how did you tackle it? Did
(20:21):
you learn anything? You know, did you realize like, oh man, I should have done this training
Okay, good. You learn through
Agile and Agile is iteration. And so there's a constant just,
you know, not reinventing, but there's a constant tweaking
of things here and there based on your learnings. for sure. We've
(20:43):
talked about it quite a bit, which is starting simple and starting small
and measuring those results and using those learnings. One
organization that I was in, we were a data company or are a data company,
and we talked about experiments a lot. And so anytime we wanted to
try something new, we would run an experiment and we would begin
with a small single department or a team as
(21:06):
a test group. And so I think that's where I failed more
times than I care to admit in trying something new,
because change can't start at a really big organizational level
when it comes to this. You need a pocket where you test
it, you prove it out, you create those safe environments, and
you get some real results, and then you build on that. I
(21:28):
think that getting started with a pilot group can be anything
from implementing 15-minute weekly check-ins with
managers and team members to piloting a new feedback
form. To your point, what went well this week? What challenges
did you face? What support do you need? It doesn't have
to be anything overly complex to
(21:50):
get started. Again, think simple and
just ask the really valuable questions. So I
think it's just, it's starting small and nurturing that
and through your learnings to make it, I don't want
to say go viral, but to get greater
(22:11):
If only there existed for performance reviews, those little feedback
buttons that sometimes exist in bathrooms as you walk out, you can hit,
you know, or it needs to be cleaned. I'd
Yeah, we, we actually have that in our weekly check-in form
in our platform. So it's, it's primarily emoji based
(22:32):
and except for, you know, what support do you need? Uh, we
ask everyone, you know, what their emoji is for that week in
terms of. the challenges that they're facing in terms of their priorities. All
of those things are really important to know, but how you get that information also
matters. And you sort of have to meet people where they are. And right now we're meeting in
(22:54):
I love that. Well, Sarah, Katherine, thank you so much for taking a few minutes of
your day to sit down and chat with me about agile performance management.
Thank you, Shari. I appreciate it and hope everyone has
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
You're listening to the HR Mixtape, your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel,
well, like work. Now, your host,
Joining me today is Sarah Katherine Schmidt, VP of
Customer Experience at PeopleLogic. She has 16 years
(00:24):
of experience in HR and customer experience, focusing on
Sarah Katherine, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Of course. Thank you, Shari, for the opportunity. Excited to chat with you. So
we were just talking a little bit offline about our own kind of journeys
(00:46):
on how we ended up where we are today. I'd love if maybe you
could share just a little bit about your journey and how you got
to this place where you're focusing on performance management.
Sure, absolutely. Having been in HR and
people operations roles for the last 15 years, I've
led traditional performance management processes more
(01:08):
than I would like to admit. I've
transitioned into an HR tech company as the VP of customer
experience over services, as well as helping our customers. I
recognized, you know, as I was making the transition, you
know, it's just been super painful to be
in the space of traditional performance management. And as
(01:31):
a mindset coach, I knew that we needed to have a growth mindset about
performance management. And so, you know, I was,
I've pushed so many rocks up a hill around agile performance management
or around traditional performance management. I just know that
there has to be a better way. And so that's why we developed the 12 Agile
Performance Management Principles, so that there's not that
(01:53):
discomfort and arduous review process. It's
And if you're from a tech company, you will know how much we talk about
agile mindsets and agile approaches to things. So
Sure, so agile performance management is about real-time
(02:15):
feedback loops and continuous performance management versus point-in-time
performance management. And it's a cultural shift
that takes time and effort. And so it's
really about these real-time feedback loops that you
can see an uptick in performance. You can see that people are
(02:35):
more engaged. And so it's all about having those conversations
more frequently being communicative, creating psychologically
safe environments for people to actually share openly and
honestly, and to experience more feedback more
frequently and promote growth
(02:56):
How did that align with employee expectations and
leadership expectations around the dreaded
annual performance review? If you're doing these consistent feedback
loops, which I think is great. I think we're all trying to strive to
do that in some way. But we always get stuck with this question, OK,
how do I make comp decisions? How do I rate people? How are
(03:21):
Sure. And what I say is those things still have to happen from
a fiscal responsibility perspective, right? We still need to
be able to plan for promotions and plan for salary increases.
But what we want to do is make those decisions
based on the growth that you've seen far, far longer
than just that point in time. It's really hard for us to go back
(03:42):
in our minds six or even 12 months. And so while it
needs to be an activity that's done so that you can make business decisions,
What you need to be able to lean on is this continuous thread
versus that thread that's just everybody giving
feedback all at once that you then have to analyze and decipher
and make decisions on. So the two go together
(04:06):
because they have to. But yes, leadership always has that mindset
of like, we've always done it this way. So that's where
So you had to make definitely some culture changes. You
talked about that a little bit already. What are those
pieces? If somebody's listening, they're like, hey, you know what? I really want
(04:27):
to move to a more agile, feed-forward, feedback-loop
way of doing performance management. What are the
baby steps they need to take to start building an environment where
leadership and managers, employees can be ripe for this kind
Yeah, absolutely. So I think there are some some
key points. So first and foremost, this transformation takes
(04:50):
time. And it's, you know, a consistent effort, which
is often hard for us to, you know, take two steps forward, take
one step back, but it's one of those growth mindset exercises. And
so that growth mindset really has to exist within the organization
in order for this to be a philosophy that's
nurtured. And so teams, you know, need to
(05:12):
embrace that belief and you've got to find your change champions within that
leadership team that are truly excited and they're going to
be your rah-rah super users, so
to speak. You know, psychological safety has to
exist. And so a lot of that comes down to the leadership, how
they're building psychologically safe teams, so that people
(05:33):
can feel like they can take risks and get constructive and
positive feedback more consistently. And then, you know,
what I love about agile performance management is it drives
trust and transparency and it drives collaborative leadership.
And those are things that must be true in order for
it to be successful. So communication is
(05:59):
What do you say to those managers who aren't necessarily
adept or comfortable at that constant feedback? I'm
sure you've run into this in your career. I know I have. I've been in that conversation
with a leader who said, hey, you know what, I think I need
to go down the road of a performance improvement plan or potentially
maybe think about exiting this employee, and you sit down with them and you're
(06:21):
like, all right, walk me through the conversations you've had with the employee.
And it'll be like one conversation six months ago and why
I told them. So there is managers
that need help understanding what constant feedback
Sure. So I think the first is to push through that fear of damaging
(06:43):
relationships, right? And you do that through structured
training, feedback techniques, best practices, and
getting them building that feedback muscle so that
they know they're not going to damage the relationship. If
they deliver feedback in a way that is meaningful and
actionable, they're actually going to build that relationship and that trust equity
(07:04):
even further. You know, there's often this, I
don't have time, right? And that speaks to your example that
I have heard so much, right? I don't have time to document, I
don't have time to have these conversations that are really, really hard. Or
there's just uncertainty about timing of those conversations. And
so you have to sort of give them a blueprint and a
(07:25):
template for what your expectation is, but also how
that conversation can be really fruitful and
not necessarily just managing someone out. And so
there's practicing through role-playing that needs to happen. There's,
you know, pairing with mentors that can happen, but
ultimately you've got to break through that fear of damaging the relationship
(07:52):
Well, and it's changing the view of what, we
need a new word besides feedback. I really hate that word. I don't
know if I said that on the podcast before, but I just think
it's not what we're doing. We're not giving people feedback. We're helping
them look forward and make the transitions that they need to make going
forward. Because the things that they already did in the past are done.
(08:14):
They can't go back and fix them. So if you and I come
up with a new word at some point, I will make sure to share it. But
as you think about, you know, that idea of a
feed forward and the business aspect of
being able to measure where our talent is at, how
did that change your view of KPIs or metrics
(08:39):
It's a great question. I don't know that it changed what I track. I
just pay more attention to it from a quantitative and qualitative perspective.
And I think the frequency by which you look
at that feedback has to change. And so if you're having these
continuous conversations, then you need to continuously be looking at
your data and what it's telling you. Because if it's
(09:00):
truly continuous performance management, your
frequency of conversation should be higher. Your manager should
be having those frequent conversations about growth and performance. And
you should be making sure that those are really valuable one-on-ones. And
so we look at those objectives or those
KPIs regularly. It just needs to be more continuous and
(09:21):
we need to be paying attention to it, greater attention to
it. I also look at goal attainment a
lot more regularly now. Yes, we're setting annual
or quarterly KPIs or OKRs, but
let's look at goal attainment more so on a
biweekly basis or a monthly basis. Let's look
(09:41):
to see how those goals are tying to skill improvement. So
putting some of those pieces together versus one
KPI, two KPIs, three KPIs. Let's meld them into
something that is telling us really valuable information about, okay,
this individual is having more frequent conversations. They're attaining their
goals. We're seeing these skills being developed. Let's start to
(10:04):
pull that thread, right? And so you think about KPIs as this more living
So if you're like me, as you were talking through that,
all I kept thinking was, oh my gosh, so much more stuff for me to track.
How are you keeping your head around all of
the movement in your organization? I mean, it sounds fantastic,
(10:25):
right? To be able to know where somebody sits every week,
every two weeks. Where does the onus lie
Sure. So technology is really an enabler here, uh,
in terms of gathering that feedback, being able to report on it
in real time, a lot of our customers and I, I
(10:46):
love them. And this is what I love most about my job is I get to take them
from spreadsheets to superpowers. And so when we think about spreadsheets of
doom, we're helping them get into a platform that
is giving them those real time insights so that they can go and look in one
place versus looking in five different places. And. That's
real-time communication tools, that's performance tracking software,
(11:07):
right? We're trying to condense down. many different sources of
truth and information into one, ideally, separate
from your HRAS, probably, because that manages
a whole host of other things. But when you're looking at KPIs,
what you want to do is you want to have them in a central place
as much as possible so that you're not managing all of
(11:29):
these spreadsheets that can be overwhelming and
are overwhelming, right? So in terms of getting started,
that can be the first barrier is like, How do
I do this? How do I actually report on this? And it goes back to
being simple and getting to simplicity and
what you're measuring, how you're measuring
(11:53):
And the simplicity is so important. I think in HR, sometimes we
want perfection in the best way possible, right? We want to deliver excellence.
And so sometimes we get stuck in this. design space
where we're just iterating and iterating and it's not, it's never quite
right. So sometimes something as simple as, you
(12:15):
know, an emoji feedback, right? How are you feeling today?
Some of those kinds of things, right? Get real, real simple, but
Yes, absolutely. I always think about simplicity
and looking at friction. and the friction points in
your process for your employees, for your managers, for
yourselves, doing sort of this friction audit. And
(12:37):
where can you make it easier, more simplistic to
still get the insights that you need and for people to
still get the feedback and information that they're desiring of?
But can you make it fun? Can you make it easier to give that?
Can you make it less arduous to do these things? And
that's what simplicity is all about, is getting back to the
(13:03):
What do you say to the leader who's coming to you, who's
behind it, supportive of this approach, but
goes, hey, you know what, I'm just worried this approach is
going to backfire. It's either going to be too much feedback, or
maybe not the right feedback, or how do I balance my
one-on-ones now so that I'm giving you know, reward and
(13:23):
recognition, but also constructive criticism all at the same time.
How have you coached managers through kind of all those things
That's a lot of coaching and a lot of concerns. And I get
it because there can be unintended negative consequences if
you don't implement it thoughtfully. A lot of what I do
(13:44):
with managers is education and coaching. And so
we do talk about feedback fatigue, and we look
at what their feedback routine is today. and
figure out those points where they feel like it's too much, it's
not enough. What's crazy is
that the modern day workforce really wants feedback like
(14:05):
every seven days, right? And so as a manager, it's
like, oh my gosh, how do I give meaningful feedback every seven days? But
what I walk through is the assessment itself. So
what is your feedback assessment? Or what is your process for gathering
information and giving feedback? I talk
and coach through the anxiety and stress. And so it's
(14:28):
about being a partner and being there with them on that journey.
So it's not unfounded hesitation or
anxiety, because it can backfire. But
if you have strong, supportive partners around you and with you,
that helps ensure a little bit more success with switching
(14:49):
As you made this switch to a more continuous model, how
did feedback up change in your organization? I
asked that because I recently was at an
event and somebody had shared that they had a great leader
who is somebody that they're still connected with to this day. who the way that
they did their one-on-ones was, what
(15:11):
are three things that went really great this week? What are three things
that you need to improve or opportunities? And
then she would flip it and she would say, what are three things that I did
to support you this week? And what are three things that I did that didn't
help you or didn't help you unblock things as a leader? How
(15:31):
Sure. So it's about building that feedback muscle for individuals
as well. And you can't build that upward feedback muscle
without an extremely psychologically safe environment.
And so I think you have to reinforce you
know, what the expectation is, but also give employees the tools
and the techniques to give that feedback that's actionable. Everybody
(15:53):
wants actionable feedback. If I told you, Shari, you know, you're
not holding this interview in a way that is, you know,
consistent and a way that's helpful. What do
you what do you do with that? Right? And so you've got to to
train and coach and guide and mentor individuals up
and down the organization to give that feedback. I love those questions. I
(16:15):
used to always ask those questions as a manager. And oftentimes
I would get these blank stares. But
I want to know how I am doing just as much as you want to know how
you're doing because it's a partnership between the two of us. And my
goal is for you to be successful. And hopefully
your goal is for me to be successful as well because together, we
(16:38):
Have you seen some ancillary consequences
in a good way from this model? And some of the things I'm thinking about
are, you know, maybe you could spot burnout sooner, maybe
you could help reprioritize tasks that had,
you know, robust timelines that you realize you need to change, because
you're getting this feedback more often. You said it right there.
(17:03):
Yes, it creates that continuous improvement where employees
feel valued and supported and invested in their long-term success.
And that in and of itself has a physiological response
within our bodies such that we feel motivated to actually
go above and beyond. And so when we have those
positive physiological responses, then
(17:25):
we're less likely to get burned out because we've got all
the endorphins and the positive neurotransmitters going through our bodies.
That addressing of concerns and challenges before
a departure is truly key because if
you're addressing those, then ideally you're preventing burnout, you're
prioritizing work, right? You're connecting
(17:48):
with them on a deeper level and all of those things lead to greater
retention versus attrition. And
so those conversations, I can't underscore the
value of them being truthful and honest and
geared towards making sure that that individual is engaged and
I love that. A couple more questions before we
(18:12):
wrap up here. Does this model look
different in a fully remote or hybrid environment compared
I wouldn't say fully different, but there is that technology component
where it's enabling all of these continuous feedback loops to
actually happen. And so there's an extra attention to
(18:33):
things like emotional cues and nonverbal communication that
has to happen even more intently in
a remote or a hybrid organization or dynamic
because you have to compensate for those in-person interactions. Virtual
check-ins I love, even if they're just virtual coffee chats. I
(18:54):
can have a coffee chat with anyone. But scheduling those regularly to
check in with people obviously is a huge component of the continuous
feedback. Digital documentation has to happen versus
in-person documentation. Offering
asynchronous options to check in. I have
days still where I need to asynchronously check in with
(19:15):
my manager because I'm either deep in the weeds on something or
I need a technology break. And so offering
those asynchronous check-ins for those of us who get a little technology
depleted is really helpful. And then
if you're using communication tools that enable the virtual
communication and collaboration that is required of
(19:37):
continuous feedback, that takes a burden off of individuals
trying to do it via phone or type out
everything that they want to say, right? So it does look
different because It's that face-to-face dynamic that
you're compensating for. when you don't have them in
(19:58):
All right. So walk me through, step
by step, in the highest level possible, how
somebody goes about implementing this. Because you've mentioned
a couple of things, right? Culture change, psychological safety, training,
the coaching, the mentoring. What was the steps you walked through
to get to this final result? And how did you tackle it? Did
(20:21):
you learn anything? You know, did you realize like, oh man, I should have done this training
Okay, good. You learn through
Agile and Agile is iteration. And so there's a constant just,
you know, not reinventing, but there's a constant tweaking
of things here and there based on your learnings. for sure. We've
(20:43):
talked about it quite a bit, which is starting simple and starting small
and measuring those results and using those learnings. One
organization that I was in, we were a data company or are a data company,
and we talked about experiments a lot. And so anytime we wanted to
try something new, we would run an experiment and we would begin
with a small single department or a team as
(21:06):
a test group. And so I think that's where I failed more
times than I care to admit in trying something new,
because change can't start at a really big organizational level
when it comes to this. You need a pocket where you test
it, you prove it out, you create those safe environments, and
you get some real results, and then you build on that. I
(21:28):
think that getting started with a pilot group can be anything
from implementing 15-minute weekly check-ins with
managers and team members to piloting a new feedback
form. To your point, what went well this week? What challenges
did you face? What support do you need? It doesn't have
to be anything overly complex to
(21:50):
get started. Again, think simple and
just ask the really valuable questions. So I
think it's just, it's starting small and nurturing that
and through your learnings to make it, I don't want
to say go viral, but to get greater
(22:11):
If only there existed for performance reviews, those little feedback
buttons that sometimes exist in bathrooms as you walk out, you can hit,
you know, or it needs to be cleaned. I'd
Yeah, we, we actually have that in our weekly check-in form
in our platform. So it's, it's primarily emoji based
(22:32):
and except for, you know, what support do you need? Uh, we
ask everyone, you know, what their emoji is for that week in
terms of. the challenges that they're facing in terms of their priorities. All
of those things are really important to know, but how you get that information also
matters. And you sort of have to meet people where they are. And right now we're meeting in
(22:54):
I love that. Well, Sarah, Katherine, thank you so much for taking a few minutes of
your day to sit down and chat with me about agile performance management.
Thank you, Shari. I appreciate it and hope everyone has
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
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