December 18, 2024 • 46 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Episode 87: Matt and Taylor are joined by Curtis Mitchell. Curtis, originally from Calgary, Alberta, studied Architectural Technologies at SAIT from 2015 to 2017, and has since been involved in home designing, house flipping, and new construction development in Kelowna. Curtis has founded and is the Principal at both CM Designs (2020), and NobleTerra Developments (2022). Together, they create an all-in-one development company that encompasses property selling, design, construction, and investment.
Curtis is here to discuss: → His journey in real estate so far, founding both CM Designs and NobleTerra Developments, and the need for more civil engineers. → The death of single-family homes: Kelowna's incoming densification, purpose-built rental incentives, land assembly values & re-zoning, house-flipping regulations, and the cost to build. → The difficulty of renovations, where to look for in Kelowna for deals, and what other places and properties he would invest in right now.
NobleTerra Development Website: www.nobleterra.ca
CM Designs Website: www.cmresidesigns.ca
Curtis Mitchell's Email: curt_mitch@outlook.com
Curtis Mitchell's LinkedIn: @CurtisMitchell
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Matt Glen's Website: www.mattglen.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the Kelowna RealEstate Podcast.
(00:01):
I'm your mortgage broker host,Taylor Atkinson.
And I'm your real estate agenthost, Matt Glenn.
What's happening today?Hey, big news.
Bank of Canada, 50 basis pointcut, half a percent off on
variable adjustable ratemortgages.
Doesn't do anything to your fixedrate right now.
But yeah, pretty awesome.
Second consecutive half point
decrease.
Yeah.
So we were all kind of expectinghalf a point off, or at least had
(00:25):
high hopes for that.
Yeah, I was glad that it came
through.
Like what is a variable rate at
right now?If somebody wants to go get a
mortgage, what are we talking?If it's insured, so less than 20 %
down or insurable, we're in thatlike 4 .5 % range.
Okay.
If it's not insured, then we're in
kind of the high 4 .9s.
And what are a fix?
(00:46):
Isn't a fix like around the lowfours?
Yeah.
So again, insured, you know, we're
seeing in like the 4 .14 range canget a little bit cheaper with some
different products, a little bitmore expensive and then not
insured in like that 4 .39 range.
Okay.
So right now fix are stillcheaper, but it's trending towards
variable going down.
Marginally cheaper.
(01:07):
Pretty much all the mortgages I'mdoing right now, obviously we
present.
you know, a few different options.
Here's like your fix.
Here's a 30 year AM, a 25 year AM
variable.
Most people are now just seeing
like, Hey, I'm paying another $20a month to have this variable.
And if I get one rate decrease bya quarter point, I'm going to be
(01:27):
on par.
And then anything after that
saving.
So a lot of people are electing to
go variable now, which is nice tosee.
It's nice to see people have thatflexibility.
It's kind of funny because it'snot that much time.
Well, it's fairly rare in myexperience, obviously, not a
mortgage broker, but the fixed andthe variable are somewhat the
same.
Usually, there's a clear favorite.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the favorite is
(01:49):
variable right now, just purely onprojections.
We're not projecting fixed ratesreally drop a whole lot more.
They're based off the US economy,which is just pumping right now
for obviously... based off rightnow for obviously...
Trump's in there and everyone'sgot high hopes for their economy
and America first kind of thing.
So that doesn't really bode well
for our bond market.
Well, I mean, it does, but it
(02:12):
doesn't bode well for like cheaperfixed rates.
But just because our economy isgetting crushed, that's why we're
seeing a bigger decrease on thevariable rate.
So I think there's still room onthe variable side, probably not a
whole lot more room on the fixedside.
Interesting.
All right.
Good time.
What do you think?
What are your predictions for thenext year's market?
End of the year?Like on rates?
(02:32):
Yeah, rates and also sales.
What do you think's happening?
I don't know.
I got out of the prediction game
as soon as I got into it because Iwas always wrong.
You know what?I was a little less optimistic on
this rate announcement.
I was like quarter point for sure.
Maybe half a point.
It actually surprised me.
I was kind of on the fence.
(02:53):
Really?
You were surprised?Really?
You were Honestly, I was.
Like a month ago, I was like,
okay, two half point cutsconsecutively for sure.
And it kind of wobbled a littlebit.
And then some job numbers came outrecently and it kind of pushed the
other way.
Like it just seems so volatile
still.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't really want to make alot of predictions.
I don't really want to make a lotof predictions.
(03:15):
I did notice that the narrativehad changed.
It was like quarter point, half ofmy quarter point.
And then I thought the consensuswas pretty much a half point a
couple of days ago.
Interesting what happens on
January 29th now, because that'sthe next cut, right?
Yeah, I think we'll see a couplemore cuts, whether that's a
quarter point or half a point,whatever it's going to be into the
spring.
And then obviously, that's going
to heat up the market a littlebit.
And I think a lot of these newlegislation changes with CMHC,
(03:36):
like insured products for first-time homebuyers on a 30 -year
amortization, or insured up to amillion and a half, or insurable
with a 2 million if you're puttingit into the basement renovation,
like all these incentives arereally going to support, you know,
houses specifically in Kelowna inthat price point that were before
out of people's range.
So with a couple more rate cuts
(03:57):
and a couple more of these and lowinventory, yeah, I think in the
single family home, we're going tosee things pick up pretty
aggressively.
Nice, nice.
But that was me just saying, I'mnot in the prediction.
What do you think?I think I agree with that totally.
I think single families are goingto... have a bit of a i don't want
to say a boom but an uptick forsure 2025 seems like even right
(04:20):
now like anecdotally in mybusiness i feel like the last few
weeks i've seen a noted increasein sales and most of them have
been single family so it's itseems like it's coming alive early
it kind of is funny ourtraditional markets like where
it's like busy in the springslower in the summer busy in the
fall sore in the winter it's justnot really materialized for like
five years It's just been off eversince COVID hit.
(04:43):
So I wonder if we get back to thatat some point.
Right now, there's definitely anuptick that we've seen.
Yeah, absolutely.
This has been, for my business,
the most productive.
It's been this three -month
stretch in any fall, winterseason.
So if that shows anything into thespring.
But yeah, hey, this is the lastshow for us for 2024.
Before we take a break over theholidays.
So that's two solid calendar yearsthat we've done the show.
(05:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pat on the back to us.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's been fun, man.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Thanks for partnering.
It's been fun.
We have still not figured out allthe technicals.
Like for some reason I'm superbright right now.
Can't figure this out, but we'regetting there.
We're getting down the hosting.
We're getting down the having
guests on.
(05:24):
It's been a ton of fun.
Yeah.
And yeah, thanks for the listeners
to support and hope everyone has asafe and happy holiday.
Today's guest, we brought onCurtis Mitchell.
He's local in Kelowna right now.
He's the principal at CM Designs
LTD.
So I met him through doing some
renovation projects.
I walked through one of his spec
homes that he's GC'd himself.
So he's a licensed home builder as
(05:45):
well.
Super creative and ambitious.
He's buying land, subdividing.
you know, redeveloping, going
through the BP, DP process, startto finish, right?
Like it's pretty cool to seesomeone do it all.
Yeah, to see someone do it all.
he's just tackling it head on.
Yeah.
So he's got a couple different
businesses, but yeah, that's kindof the one I know most about is CM
(06:07):
Designs.
And like, if you want someone
incredibly fast and can take yourvision and throw it on a piece of
paper and then get it approved bythe city, highly recommend
reaching out to him.
Like really.
Really impressive how fast heturns things around.
So yeah, just a personalappreciation to him.
But I think you guys will enjoythe show.
(06:28):
Also a great podcast guest.
Yeah.
It was awesome to talk to you.
It was a lot of fun.
show.
Also a Yeah.
Yeah.
He's a great guy.
So enjoy the show, guys.
This episode, like every episode,
is sponsored by the best brokeragein town.
Best brokers in the interior,let's be honest.
Century 21 Assurance Realty.
We are expanding.
We're going to Kamloops.
We're going to the Kootenays.
(06:49):
We're going to Salmon Arm.
We just opened a shop in Creston.
Taylor knows all about Creston.
So we are there now too.
Things are looking good.
So if you're ready to join a
brokerage that is expanding size-wise, but also geographically, we
are the one for you.
So if you're looking for a new
brokerage for the new year, giveus a call.
Give me a call.
Give Dean a call.
Max, love to talk to you.
Or if you're a buyer or a seller
(07:11):
looking for an agent anywhere inthe interior, pretty much, So we
are Century 21 Assurance Realty isthe brokerage for you.
Okay, welcome to the show, CurtisMitchell.
How's it going, man?Good, thanks.
How are you?Good.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, so how we like to start ourshow is just kind of what does
your perfect Friday look like interms of work, productivity, what
gives you energy, and then a bitof fun leading into the weekend?
(07:32):
Well, to answer that, I wish youcould treat every day like Friday.
In a perfect world, there would beno differentiating between Mondays
and Fridays.
Just become a realtor.
Every day is the same.
You never work.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, like the perfect day for me
would still be very muchstructured, right.
much structured, getting up 6 a m., checking the emails, going to
the gym, getting the bulk majorityof my work done in the morning,
(07:53):
and then off by 2 o 'clock.
Nice.
Then you can spend it biking,hiking, or in the case of a
Friday, getting ready to go.
jaunt off somewhere, whether it's
Explore BC or elsewhere.
Are you from Kelowna originally?
Calgary.
Okay, sweet.
Yeah.
How long have you been here?
Yeah, 11 years.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Wouldn't go back.
Yeah.
We hear that a lot around here.
(08:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've had friends move toCalgary and they're still there.
And yeah, Calgary people comehere, but that's a pretty good
spot.
Okay, well, tell us about your
business and what you do.
I mean, you have two businesses,
so we'll kind of break this downinto two parts of the show.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, if you want to kind of start
(08:39):
on the architect background, likedesign and everything like that,
what you do, that'd be great.
Yeah, so I'll go back to my
background, I'm an architecturaltechnologist.
And I worked for an architect intown, Meiklejohn Architects, for
five years.
And then started my own company,
CM Designs.
So I specialize in subdivisions,
rezonings, blueprints, anywherefrom renovations, single family
homes, duplexes, fourplexes, thatkind of thing.
(09:00):
and helping clients anywhere inbetween all of those phases.
Yeah, it's got to be a tough job.
Like for me, I just wouldn't be
able to see the vision.
Like you have to translate what
somebody communicates you overemail or a 10 minute conversation
into like what they'reenvisioning.
And I just could not do that.
But you seem to just thrive in it.
What kind of sets you apart?Like, what do you love about it so
much?It's not just me.
not just me.
(09:21):
I use a pretty powerful software
that helps me visualize things aswell.
But going back to my childhood, Iused to draft plans with crayons,
like literally at four years old.
So I feel like I found my passion,
my path.
I've always had a passion for
(09:45):
design.
And what sets me apart, I think
just listening.
Number one, listen to concerns,
maybe not related to the buildingsso much, but...
You want to understand how do theclients live?
Do they need a sink in theirpantry versus whatever?
You want to get down to how theylive day to day, and that'll help
you design the building.
Yeah.
Are there trends people are doingright now, or are you working on
such one -off type properties thatthere's no one thing that stands
(10:08):
out as what's working in Kelownaright now?
I work a lot with developers, sothe trend is what can make money.
Right.
Well, yeah, it's got to be tough.
And not cost money, money, Iguess.
Yeah, for sure.
Like there's always that sweet
spot, like, you know, 1400 squarefoot townhouse is making money.
You make it too big and you'rebuilding for too much and it's not
(10:33):
profitable.
So my job is so multi -layered
because there's the custom homewhere you're working with a client
aspect.
And then there's the working with
a developer and trying to make aprofitable project.
So are you doing a lot of theinfill work?
a lot of the infill work?Are you working a lot on that?
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The BC government changed the
zoning in February of 2024.
(10:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then trickle down, Kelowna
changed their zoning.
So infill lots in Kelowna can now
support six units, whereaspreviously they would only be able
to support a single family housewith secondary suite.
Have there been a lot of sixplexus being built?
Not yet.
Because I know that that changed
this, but I haven't seen, I don'tthink any.
Or very few that have come on thatare actually sixes are all still
doing the four.
(11:14):
For sure.
Yeah.
It all comes down to parking.
Yes.
You always have to provide one
parking stall per unit.
So if you've got a lot that can't
support the parking, you can'tbuild the six.
But also the zoning is pretty new.
It only came out in June.
only And as we know, the market ispretty slow.
So we're not seeing constructionin the last half of 2024 or so.
But you think of all the productsthat would sell, you think that a
(11:39):
sixplex units would sell is alittle cheaper, easier to get
into.
For sure.
I guess a lot of things have to beconsidered there.
sure.
Do you think they'll ever give
exception on that, like parkingvariance?
Or even with the, was it the topfloor has to be like 70 % of the
overall footprint?I think it's a residential bylaw
in Kelowna where like...
They just want it to look like a
residential town, but it seemslike such a waste of space.
(12:02):
If we're talking aboutaffordability and building
vertically, densification, do youever see those kind of bylaws
going away?Or are we just going to start with
the infill and see what happens?There are certain areas in Kelowna
that are parking exempt.
They've called them the core
areas.
We've got downtown proper and
then... the hospital district, andthen Rutland.
So those areas already are havingparking exemptions.
So you could build that six, well,you can build more dense than the
(12:24):
sixplex.
You could build a 30 unit
apartment building and not providea parking stall.
None?Yeah.
Man, the neighbors must love that.
It doesn't make sense.
Yeah.
So are there things that are
changing as things progress?And yes, there are, but you got to
ask yourself.
Are all of these things good?
I agree with you, the 70 % rule.
That's kind of dumb, but no
parking, that's no good.
(12:44):
Kelowna is like a car city because
you need a car to go everywhere.
no good.
Kelowna is like a car city becauseyou need a car to go everywhere.
The transit isn't really goodenough to bring you there.
I don't know.
I'm not totally opposed to the no
parking, but yeah, they need tohave the infrastructure.
(13:05):
If they had a little subway orsomething, just...
It would make sense if there was aparkade around or something, but
just have middle of residential,put a sixplex and no parking.
It's not like those people are notgoing to have cars.
Yeah.
Agreed.
So like, I don't know, theneighbors all of a sudden are
going to have cars in front ofthem.
(13:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So to kind of go back to, I guess,the developers making money, hard
thing to do right now.
But do you find like there's a
disconnect?I mean, you're obviously like...
very well versed and lucky to bein a position to be like a home
builder, like a licensed homebuilder and an architect.
I find like a lot of architectsare not, which then you, you make
some beautiful drawings, but thenthe builder probably gets it.
And they're like, holy crap, thisis going to cost a fortune.
(13:48):
Or like, how do we make this work?Do you find that it's like, people
are being more realistic nowadays.
Like, okay, we're going to
simplify these designs.
And same with like the fast track
Kelowna has, like, let's starttrying to design things that are.
cost effective or do you stillfind like Kelowna is one of those
markets where people just wantwhat they want and you know the
bill comes later well I'm gonnahave to start by correcting you
because I can't represent asarchitect okay you have to call me
(14:11):
as architectural technologist or Ican get in a lot of trouble it
sounds smarter to be honest whatis an architect technologist
what's the difference it's just atech diploma okay so yeah two
years in and out and I'm gonnahave to start by correcting you
because I can't represent asarchitect okay you have to call me
as architectural technologist or Ican get in a lot of trouble it
sounds smarter to be honest whatis an architect technologist
(14:34):
what's the difference it's just atech diploma okay so yeah two
years in and out and It gives youthe knowledge to draft things
versus an architect.
You'd have to get a master's
degree and you'd have to write aboards exam.
And yeah, it's like a 10 yearprocess to become an architect.
Nice.
Yeah.
Regarding is Kelowna just buildingwhatever, or are they looking for
efficiencies?When it comes to a single family
house, especially like I've workedon some nice homes on the lake and
(14:57):
whatnot.
Yeah.
People don't care.
They want what looks good.
They want something cool.
But then a lot of these infill
houses, well, I would say all theinfill housing, we're looking for
efficiencies.
We're looking at, you know,
stacking your point loads andhaving your exterior walls stack
on top of each other forefficiencies in construction
methods.
And that also sets me apart from
(15:18):
other designers in town because Ihave the building background and I
build for myself.
I can find those efficiencies and
I can make sure that the buildingis actually going to be
constructed with reduced buildcosts, let's say.
Yeah.
You have no one to blame then.
one to blame then.
Hey, you can't go back to the
architect technologist and belike, oh, they screwed this
drawing up.
I'm the builder.
I'm so angry at them.
You're just mad at yourself.
Yeah, for sure.
Pivoting a little bit.
So what's your second company thatyou've started where basically
you're building spec homes,infill?
Like, yeah, let's talk a littlebit about that.
Sure.
(15:38):
Yeah.
So started another company in2022, fairly recent.
Got my general contractor'slicense and started a company
called Noble Terra Developments.
I've done two projects or they're
currently ongoing right now.
Lucky enough, actually, I got to
do my first project on my parents'property.
So they've got a one acre parcelin Lower Mission.
I rezoned it.
to a smaller lot zoning, and then
subdivided it into four lots.
(15:58):
And then I've just finished my
first single family development onthe one lot.
So that's kind of where I'mstanding currently.
But I went from rezoning,subdivision, building permit, the
whole works, and then built outthe project.
I understand the process verywell.
And then I'm doing the sameproject in a site in Clifton, up
Clifton Road, very similar.
rezoning subdivision.
How long does the rezoningsubdivision take?
(16:20):
Is it a reasonable process or anyefficiencies you can see?
Rezoning takes anywhere fromminimum six months up to a year or
even 18 months.
The process is pretty
straightforward once youunderstand it, but you have to
rely a lot on consultants.
That's the biggest time factor.
So you have to get civil engineersinvolved, environmental engineers.
This site I have in Clifton, it'sheavily forested.
I had to get a wildfireenvironmental consultant involved.
(16:42):
So that's what makes the rezoningprocess take so long or become so
complicated because depending onthe area and the lay of the lands,
you're going to have all thesedifferent consultants that need to
plug in.
Yeah.
So with the wildfire, just likecurious.
So they write a report being like,hey, if there were to be a
(17:02):
wildfire, like there's these pointof exits or like there has to be
sprinklers installed.
And he must have been doing this
during the fire.
must have been doing this during
the fire.
It was right after the fire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, you should be good for another20 years here.
(17:22):
Yeah.
They basically just say trim trees
that are four inches.
in diameter or smaller.
And then that's the mitigationportion.
So I don't know, I guess it'sscientific that fire doesn't
spread through a five inch tree.
Yeah, I don't know.
five Yeah, I think Ponderosa Pinesand their bark a little bit fire
(17:42):
resistant.
Maybe, maybe that's what it comes
down to.
Yeah, this is imposed by the city,
obviously, to be like, okay, ifyou're going to subdivide in these
areas, these are the steps youneed to take.
And then it's on you to basicallyreach out to these.
(18:03):
Experts.
Yeah.
So that's the rezoning portion,which has all these different
consultants.
The civil engineer is the most
important, always involved everysingle rezoning or subdivision,
because the civil engineer isgoing to tell you how many
sanitary, how many water lines,electric communications for each
(18:24):
lot, right?And then not only are they
responsible for designing thatportion, But when you actually
hire a contractor to install it,they are responsible for
inspecting the install, signingoff, and then the project signed
off.
Now your lots are available to
build.
Yeah.
It's a lot of onus on them.
Do you feel we just don't have
enough civil engineers in Kelowna?Totally.
Yeah.
Like it seems like a very slow
process to work with them.
I totally agree.
(18:45):
Yeah.
I think that's a small niche that
somebody could fill.
Yeah.
More engineers.
You almost think it should be
something like more promoted.
Like if that's the bottleneck in
building more homes, right?Like if that process, I know they
have done the fast track systemwhere basically, yeah, you can get
(19:07):
like a BP DP within like 10 days,but you know, that's on like very
specific lots.
So it's, I guess it's going in
that direction, but yeah, if theyhad like civil engineers on
payroll, that could kind of work alittle bit faster.
It might help.
I totally agree.
Everybody talks about we're in ahousing crisis and they really
have done a good thing by speedingup the process of getting permits
out the door.
(19:28):
That's building permits.
Nobody really talks about thewhole subdividing or rezoning
portion and the civil engineeringside of things, which eats up a
lot of time for a developer.
Yeah.
How are you finding deals?I remember we spoke a little while
ago and you were like, heading offto go do some door knocking.
(19:50):
What's good about that?good about that?
I'm not opposed to getting myboots in the ground and knocking
on doors for sure to find somedeals.
I found that didn't work great inKelowna.
There's a lot of educated peoplein Kelowna.
They know what their propertiesare valued at.
So if you're trying to get a deal,yes, you can find it door
knocking, but you're going to haveto be pretty persistent.
(20:12):
Got to hit a lot of doors beforeyou find a deal.
I still find looking on for saleby owner or Facebook, Kijiji, like
finding an owner deal, that'sgoing to be one of the best places
to find a deal.
And I still think there's good
opportunities on MLS as well.
I'm assuming you're researching
like specific areas that arepermitted more for densification.
assuming you're researching likespecific areas that are permitted
(20:33):
more for densification.
What are you looking for exactly?
For my own projects?my own projects?
Yeah.
I don't have a specific area that
I would target.
If the numbers work, the numbers
work.
I want to make sure that there's
good appreciation in the area ifI'm going to buy a project or buy
a property in that specific area.
But yeah, you just got to crunch
(20:53):
the numbers and make sure itworks.
And you shouldn't be so focused onthe part of town that it's in.
Yeah.
I think Kelowna is pretty safe
too.
I think all the areas are bound to
appreciate.
For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know Rutland got a lot of harpfor a lot of years, but - I think
it's a fantastic place to invest.
The lots are gigantic.
(21:15):
The city's favorable to rezoningand development.
I think it's a fantastic place toinvest.
Totally.
Yeah.
Get closer to Big White.
closer to Big White.
Get closer to the airport.
Yeah.
It really is on the up too.
I totally agree with that.
Yeah.
Like room for growth and
appreciation.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you like more, designingor building?
I love design.
love design.
Always have.
(21:35):
Yeah.
That's definitely my passion.
Construction is challenging.
There's a lot of intricacies thatI never thought you'd have to deal
with.
Being a contractor is like being a
babysitter for adults.
There's just so many personalities
that don't get along.
The tile setter hates the
carpenter and so on and so forth.
It's just a trickle down effect of
(21:56):
making my life hard.
What made you want to get your
building license then?I have a control issue.
have a control That's what itcomes down to.
what it comes down to.
I don't want to hire somebody else
to build my projects.
Yeah.
So. That's fair.
I mean, I always been hands on,
you know, similar to you, likerenovating my own bathrooms and
various other projects I've takenon my own homes.
So I already had a goodunderstanding of the construction
process and figured I'd just do itmyself.
I should set you up to interviewmy babysitter because she is.
(22:19):
set you up to interview mybabysitter because she is.
Incredible.
Shout out to Josie, but she could
probably manage trades.
No problem, man.
out to Josie, but she couldprobably Yeah.
Well -timed snack here and there.
Well snack here and there.
You're good to go.
Seriously.
But you're right, man.
Like, yeah, even like GC and your
own little home projects andstuff.
One trade guy doesn't show up ontime.
(22:40):
So it's the other guy back andthen they don't come and like
something's over budget.
Or you get somebody in the wrong
order.
get somebody in the wrong order.
You know, like there's a lot ofthings that can go.
Yeah, it's a lot.
It's a lot of responsibility.
How long did the build in loremission take?
I was on schedule to be done ineight months.
a lot of was on schedule to bedone in eight months.
(23:03):
Wow, that's good.
I had some weird things like HVAC
guy went to jail and didn't showup with my equipment and this kind
of stuff.
So I actually could have done it.
kind Well, I was going to do it inthe eight months.
I think it took nine and a half.
(23:25):
Yeah.
You know, that's the other thing.
You don't know who you're hiring
until you find out they're injail.
That's funny.
I guess what was like the biggest
opportunity or biggest thing thatyou loved about that build and
kind of the worst thing, like whatcatastrophically went wrong and
you would have changed it on thenext one?
Like what lessons did you learn?Well, what I loved about it was,
you know, I spent so much timedesigning things.
(23:48):
I wouldn't say so much time.
I have this vision in my head and
then it becomes a drawing on mycomputer.
And then to actually physicallysee that thing.
constructed that's the thing ilike the most so rewarding totally
yeah totally there's somethingabout construction that's really
rewarding in the sense that youcan physically see change every
single day i know it's crazy evenlike if you like tile a wall it's
like oh my god that looked likeshit yesterday and now it's like a
(24:12):
work of art totally you knowthat's just one thing of one thing
and then every single day is iknow i find that too when i'm
doing projects like that it'sreally awesome know it's crazy
even like if you like tile a wallit's like oh my god that looked
like shit yesterday and now it'slike a work of art totally you
know that's just one thing of onething and then every single day is
i know i find that too when i'mdoing projects like that it's
really awesome That was superrewarding.
You see this masterpiece come tolife.
(24:33):
The thing that went wrong was thebabysitting of trades.
I didn't realize how much effortwould be involved dealing with
different people and differentpersonalities.
You think people can just come inand do their job.
Not the case.
No, no, no, my friend.
I feel like too, when did youbuild this?
What year was it?I finished in June of 2024.
So this year.
Okay.
So you're building in a slowermarket.
I think in 2021, 2022, it wouldhave been even worse.
(24:55):
Yeah.
Way worse.
For trades.
Yeah.
Because they just, you know, thisone's getting hard.
Let's just go to the next one.
We'll come back when we get time
for this one.
Totally.
Right.
Where now it's getting a little
more skinny out there.
So I think it's more of an
incentive to do it.
So you probably got the best part
of that.
Yeah.
From a build perspective, maybe.
Yeah.
From a resale perspective, not somuch.
(25:17):
Throws and cons of everything.
Actually, going back to what I
learned, the biggest thing Ioverlooked is that you're so stuck
in the day -to -day.
so much.
that you're so stuck in the day-to -day.
Okay, we're getting the tile in,we're getting the flooring in,
this and that.
You overlook the fact that you got
to sell this product at the end ofthe day.
And if I was to do it over, I'dspend money on advertising the
(25:37):
product while you're constructingit.
It's pretty well sold by the timeit's done.
That's an important thing from adeveloper perspective that I think
gets overlooked as well.
Yeah.
I guess the only downside to thatis if you sell it three months
previous, then you have anothercook in the kitchen saying like,
oh, you know what?I actually want this tile or
something.
But that's all in the contract.
If it's drafted out properly, thenit doesn't really matter.
If it's sold, you're happy.
I think it still matters.
I think even if it was in thecontract, if somebody's got to be
in their bonnet.
You're going to hear about it,
right?Yeah, I think you're going to have
(25:57):
that issue.
going to hear about it, right?
Yeah, pros and cons to everything,but I feel like I'd rather be in
the bonnet than a product sittingon the market for months because I
fund these projects with privateequity and you've got a $20 ,000 a
month mortgage and you can eat upyour profit pretty quick with
that.
market got a $20 ,000 a month
mortgage and you can eat up yourprofit pretty quick with that.
(26:20):
Yeah, I think that's a good way todo it, way to do it, for sure.
Do you prefer renovations or newbuilds?
Oh, new builds all day.
Yeah.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah, that's fair.
Yeah.
Is it just purely because like you
get a clean slate and like it'syour kind of vision going into it?
For sure.
There's that too.
Clean slate and you just get tostart from new from scratch.
(26:40):
But from a design perspective.
People think, oh, I'm just doing a
little addition here, adding asecondary suite, and they think
that it should be of lesser value.
But it's more work from a drafting
perspective because you have toredraft the building and you have
to work with the existingstructure.
Going behind the scenes of whatyou don't see, like the
foundations, can they support thisadditional level?
Or things that were built in the70s just aren't up to today's
(27:00):
standards.
Like, where do you find that
information?You find the city files
originally, or do you kind of likedo a site visit and you do that
inspection?Or do you then like call in a
civil engineer, like if theaddition is that large, if they're
going to build vertically orsomething like, yeah, where do you
start that process?I would always start by calling
the city and getting those files.
(27:20):
Most of the time they do have the
drawings filed away, but.
I've been burned in the past
because not a lot of people, Ishouldn't say not a lot, but I'd
say 50 % of my projects weren'tbuilt to the existing drawings.
Whether a wall is out of foot hereor they put a different sloped
roof on.
So even if I start with that as a
base, I always have to account fordoing a site visit and double
checking the measurements to makesure that it's accurate.
(27:43):
Because if you're putting a rooftie in, onto an existing truss and
the trusses that are on site aredifferent from what the original
drawings showed, you can see howquickly that can screw up a build.
What about things like plumbingstacks and stuff like that?
Do you just go find them beforeyou go?
When it comes to plumbing and HVACsystems, I don't draw any of that
stuff.
My scope is related to building
walls, anything life safety.
guardrails smoke detectors i guess
(28:06):
bathroom fans is kind of one thatcrosses over but yeah i wouldn't
show plumbing stacks and if youwere doing a renovation it would
be up to the contractor to findthat and and move it or tie into
it or the updated edition drawingslike once the bp is complete the
city will hang on to the newrevision of those drawings like
that's the city's responsibilityit's not up to like the homeowner
(28:26):
guess the updated edition drawingslike once the bp is complete the
city will hang on to the newrevision of those drawings like
that's the city's responsibilityit's not up to like the homeowner
contractor to like make sure thatthose files are held by the city
yeah i don't know what the cityhas sure they have a huge cloud
database that's wild like but okayso like from experience colonna is
(28:48):
very organized with all these likethey keep the permits and stuff
like that like the files yousubmit for that to get their
approval but you go to somewherelike lake country or vernon you
ask for the city file and it'slike one sheet of paper that may
or may not be useful in any wayright so like it's not i don't
know what the city has sure theyhave a huge cloud database that's
(29:09):
like but okay so like fromexperience colonna is very
organized with all these like theykeep the permits and stuff like
that like the files you submit forthat to get their approval but you
go to somewhere like lake countryor vernon you ask for the city
file and it's like one sheet ofpaper that may or may not be
useful in any way right so likeit's not the same so i feel like
(29:33):
talking like this is talking aboutcolonna specifically i think
because it's just not the sameyeah you know yeah good point and
lake country is terrible for notonly collection of like a theme of
the show yeah yeah is that right ilove lake country good point and
lake country is terrible for notonly collection of like a theme of
show yeah is love lake countryYeah, driving through it.
(29:54):
Even that, actually, as soon asyou get to Lake Country, you can
just tell it's Lake Countrybecause the roads all of a sudden
have potholes.
We're going to get sued.
going to get sued.
I'm not kidding.
You can tell.
But yeah, it's a beautiful place.
(30:15):
Beautiful place.
Anti -development.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Work at an Italian restaurant inthere, though, too.
too.
Okay.
I don't want to get to the part ofthe wrap -up show, but I want to
focus a lot on one of the wrap -upquestions is like, if you were to
buy one property in the Okanaganin the next 12 months, what would
it be?And I want to spend like five
minutes on this question.
Sure.
So I've been working with thisdeveloper partner, Devin Ward is
who I'm working with.
And we've been looking at purpose
-built rentals.
So picking up one of those sixplex
(30:35):
lots?How come?
Why?Why purpose -built rental?
Yes.
Some people might say that it's
saturated, like there's a lot ofbig players in town doing purpose
-built rental.
Let me just mention this.
There's developer incentives forrentals right now.
now.
So this is where my question is
leading.
Because of the favorable
financing, because of thedeveloper incentives, there is a
lot of people doing purpose -builtrentals.
We have property taxes.
Is it because the government is
(30:56):
basically telling people to go dopurpose -built rentals?
Is it because the Yeah, I mean,that is a factor for sure.
They're waiving property taxes for10 years if you specifically build
to purpose -built rental.
So that's a huge factor.
And then if you use CMHC financingand secure a 50 -year loan, it
outperforms a build -to -sellmodel.
You're holding onto it andwatching this product appreciate
over 10 years, and then you sellthat asset to... a REIT or real
estate investment group.
So that would be the first product
I would look at buying is thesesixplex lots.
A lot easier than building a multi-unit, like an apartment building
or multi -phased townhousesbecause these lots are ready to
go.
You can knock down a single family
house and get started tomorrow.
Do you have like a minimum size
requirement for that?23 meters wide is the minimum to
ensure that you have enoughparking.
Like off the top of my head, likethose lots are pretty much in
rolling.
much in rolling.
Rutland, there's a couple in thehospital area.
Okay.
We got a whole spreadsheet of all
(31:19):
the lots that work in GLONAP.
all the lots that work in GLONAP.
Did you guys just go on like theGIS mapping system?
Yeah.
Basically, yeah.
Yeah.
There should be like AI that would
just pick those out, no?That would be pretty sweet.
Yeah.
It would for sure help.
I've done this too.
Because before, when the RU7s came
(31:40):
out, it had to be 15 .24 meterswide.
Yeah.
Right?
I had a list of every RU7 lot inKelowna that was 15 .24.
And then I went and knocked on allthe doors.
So you can.
It's the same thing as he's doing
right now for that.
But yeah, an AI, if I knew how to
even do basic shit on my computer,would be perfect for that.
That's above me.
Yeah.
If you could create an AI pluginfor City of Kelowna Map Viewer,
(32:00):
that'd be pretty cool.
pretty cool.
I bet you something's in theworks.
I bet you it's got to be.
City of Kelowna probably has the
data on it.
cool.
I bet of Kelowna probably has thedata on it.
Those properties that he's talkingabout.
are pretty rare right there's not10 000 properties that are 24
meters wide right so like you havejust only so many it doesn't take
(32:21):
that long to figure it out totallythere aren't a lot that can
support the sixplex yeah and thenlike you look at the ones on there
some of them are going to beteardowns which are perfect for
you but some of them are going tobe like ball and hoses which no
sense to buy to tear down so likeit's pretty easy to narrow down
the list yeah right yeah yeah evenwhen we did our list yeah are
(32:45):
there aren't a lot that can thesixplex yeah and then like you
look at the ones on there some ofthem are going to be teardowns
which are perfect for you but someof them are going to be like ball
and hoses which no sense to buy totear down so like it's pretty easy
(33:05):
to narrow down the list yeah rightyeah even when we did our list
yeah Then you get out, start doorknocking and you realize that it's
that baller house and they'regoing to want way too much for it.
This doesn't make sense.
Or there's a carrot house already
on it or stuff like that.
there's a carrot house already on
(33:26):
it or stuff like that.
Would you start looking at buying
two side -by -side lots that equalthe same needed distance?
Yeah, totally.
I also had thought about that.
I don't know if you'd be ableto... make the numbers run well
you'd have to be strategic in theway you develop that but basically
you're buying two lots and you'reonly putting a three plex on each
in that scenario well i wasthinking you could redevelop and
(33:46):
put a six but like yeah so threeper lot so from a realtor
perspective like you have two lotsi was thinking you could redevelop
and put a six but like yeah sothree per lot so from a realtor
perspective like you have two lotsAnd then as soon as they know the
neighbor wants to sell it, they'regoing to want land assembly value.
Oh, man.
You drive down Gordon, I feel like
(34:06):
every single house is a landassembly.
From a homeowner perspective, whywould you not?
When you can sell your house onthe market, get 1 .1, or you put
it in a land assembly, sell itwith your neighbor, and get 1 .6,
even if it takes two years.
if it years.
Oh, you're telling me I can get 1.6 if I'm the same?
For this thing?No. Okay, you shouldn't be
preaching that though becauseeveryone's like, yeah, land
assembly, I'm going to make allthis money.
(34:26):
Oh, land assemblies are brutal.
all this money.
Oh, land assemblies are brutal.
They're not selling very well at
all right now because of this.
Because the prices are just
through the roof.
But I guess why would you not list
your house if you have fourneighbors to your left and four
neighbors to your right?You're like, to your right?
You're like, I'm going to be stuckin the middle.
You're not in a rush.
Their house is not for sale.
They don't care if they sell ornot.
(34:49):
So you just put it for sale.
It takes two years or a year.
They don't care.
They're removed anyway.
And then when you bring them acheck for 500 grand more than they
would get on the market, why not?This is why there's a million land
assemblies for sale right now inKelowna.
And there's not that many peoplebuying them.
What's the logic there?You're the logic there?
They increase the value becauseyou can build something denser.
Basically, you just increase thedensity.
So instead of building a six-pleck, you get three together.
Now you can build 72 units.
So the cost per square foot per
unit.
it goes way down right from your
experience who's buying that stuffright now not that many people but
like it's all -time developers soi think there is a stat and i'm
gonna butcher this a little bitbut it'll be close like all of the
stats on this show yeah there waslike 105 land assemblies listed in
(35:09):
2024 and five of them sold yeah ohyeah so we're talking five percent
if you're listed you don't have avery good chance so that's this
year but in 2021 they would sellimmediately people but like it's
all -time developers so i thinkthere is a stat and i'm gonna
butcher this a little bit butit'll be close like all of the
stats on this show yeah there waslike 105 land assemblies listed in
(35:31):
2024 and five of them sold yeah ohyeah so we're talking five percent
if you're listed you don't have awe're talking good chance so
that's this year but in 2021 sowould sell immediately for way
more money right so likeeveryone's just hoping that the
market turns around and they comeout and start buying these things
and then developer incentivessaying build purpose -built rental
like build the 72 -unit purpose-built rental with like 40 -year
amortizations no property taxesall the other incentives in the
world the homeowners are like wellfuck it i'm gonna make this money
too and we've spoken about thisthat screams like okay we're
(35:51):
taking away an asset class that isexisting and needed and we're
putting rentals there we're gonnaincrease our rental population
which is not a bad thing or goodthing but like it's gonna go up by
five or ten percent well we'rejust taking home ownership away
from people incentivizing rentalsyeah yeah yeah should we not be
incentivizing like okay we'retaking away an asset class that is
existing and needed and we'reputting rentals there we're gonna
increase our rental populationwhich is not a bad thing or good
thing but like it's gonna go up byfive or ten percent well we're
(36:13):
just taking home ownership awayfrom people incentivizing rentals
yeah yeah yeah should we not beincentivizing Home builders,
single families.
I'm just telling you how it is.
I guess we are with CMHC financingup to a million and a half now
insured.
They are coming, but it's mostly
for first -time homebuyers.
Also, just telling you how it is.
I guess we are when you have nohousing or shortage of housing,
you take a lot that has a single-family house on it or two.
That's two units.
If they have suites, that's four.
You tear it down and build aminimum of six per.
(36:34):
If you do a land assembly, waymore than that, 10 times that.
It makes sense for... buildingmore houses.
When that incentive is just buildmore housing, regardless of what
it is, this is the best way to doit.
I just think that's what'shappening right now.
It bears in mind, what isaffordable housing anymore?
What does that look like fromsomebody looking to get into the
(36:55):
market and buy something?Most people still can't afford a
$1 .5 million house, which isprobably what the average new home
is going for right now.
On the lowest end.
the lowest end.
You're looking at townhouses now,
which is what the incentives are,whether you're rental or not.
That's what the city is shootingfor.
But is a list price of $700 ,000,$800 ,000, is that still
achievable for people?Yeah.
(37:16):
Yeah.
I don't know.
It is.
Well, yeah.
So maybe a good segue.
So first option would be building
sixplex.
What would be a second play that
you would do investment -wise orpersonally, whatever you want to
buy?I know the question was in the
Okanagan.
know the question was in the
Okanagan.
But I would probably look at
Alberta investing or even USinvesting and looking at apartment
buildings there, a 10 unitminimum.
The unit's cash flow.
If you get something in Alberta or
you go down to the States and youbuy it, it's really hard to find
multifamily projects that are cashflowing in the Okanagan unless
you're doing purpose built, likefrom the ground up development.
Even that though, that though,like will there be a glutton in
supply here?I know.
Good question.
Talked in five years when all
these projects come to fruition?A lot of the pushback I get just
(37:39):
in my day -to -day from purpose-built rentals is that in 10, 20
years, we're basically just goingto have these dumpy buildings all
over town that just nobody caresfor.
When you build them, obviously,they're not custom homes.
They're not going to be like that.
But are they built to the same
quality that you would own thatyou sell?
Are they going to hold up overtime?
Or is it just a maintenanceproblem?
I feel like a REIT might do apretty good job of maintaining the
(38:04):
property over the years, but Idon't know, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe some of them will, some ofthem won't.
What do you think about that?How are these buildings going to
look 10, 20 years from now?Yeah, I can't speak for other
developers.
I can speak like when I think
about a sixplex development or anydevelopment in that matter, I
strive for the best productpossible.
I think about myself living inthat unit.
I still want... the high -endluxury items that people come to
expect, like quartz counters andsolid wood cabinets and the rest
of it.
But I think the same thing as you.
You see all these four or five-story wood frame condos going up.
And sure, it works for right now,but that's not the best use of
space, especially in a region suchas Kelowna where we can't spread
(38:24):
outwards.
So I don't know what's going to
happen in...
10 years when we're looking for
more densification and tearingthose things down and building
towers at that point like that'swhat we're doing with single
family homes right now well sodoes that mean though single
family home is a good investmentright now i don't know i think
probably i think so yeah i thinkso too and existing it's hard to
make it work on the new buildsyeah yeah i think there's going to
(38:48):
be a lack of single family homesin the next 10 years that's for
sure it's so obvious what we'redoing with single family homes
right now well so does that meanthough single family home is a
good investment right now i don'tknow i think probably i think so
yeah i think too and existing it'shard to make it work on the new
(39:10):
builds yeah think there's going tobe a lack of single family homes
in the next 10 years that's forsure so obvious Right.
I think so, too.
I think you got to buy a single
family home because we're justlike actively tearing them down
everywhere you look.
Right.
And we're not putting it back up.
You know what?
know what?Probably every growing city
(39:31):
reaches this capacity point,though, where it's like, hey, we
need to go vertical.
We need to go densification.
And you just get rid of singlefamily homes.
Yeah.
Like maybe people just get
accustomed to living in.
just get accustomed to living in.
Like Vancouver does this, right?But then they still have their
single family neighborhoods.
They go crazy prices.
You get like a dump.
It's like $3 million for this
(39:52):
thing that doesn't even have afront door, right?
So like, you know?Man, you're just chewing this dump
in this late country.
Well, I just mean, Well, I just
mean, yeah.
You know?
The proof is in the pudding thatthe values went up a lot of single
family homes there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The tough thing is too, because
the BC government just announcedall these new rules about
(40:12):
flipping, right?Yeah.
So in a previous world, A yearago, you would have been able to
buy that dump and fix it up andactually bring this old 70s home
back up to nice standards.
Improve the neighborhood.
Totally.
But now they're forcing us into a
position where, oh, you're goingto get hit with all these capital
gains implications if you flipthat house.
So a developer is like, well, Ican only make money if I'm
redeveloping it and putting...
(40:34):
that sixplex or the fourplex on
that lot.
Yeah, good point.
point.
All right.
Well, yeah, we'll keep moving onhere.
If you could tell your 20 -year-old self one thing, what would it
be?Yeah, I'd definitely tell myself
that the real estate game takeslonger than you anticipate.
I always thought you'd do yourfirst project and it'd go well and
you'd roll that into the next oneand it would just snowball very
quickly, but it's not the case.
(40:55):
I never accounted for real estate
cost going up.
so dramatically.
I never accounted for inflation.
All these factors make it a lot
harder to succeed in real estatein a short period of time.
So you just got to stay persistentand you got to work in it every
day.
You got to think 10, 15, 20 years
out and plan that accordingly.
(41:16):
But it takes time.
It's not going to happen in ayear.
Yeah.
So when you're a 20 -year -old,
you're like, damn, I should havebought a host when I was two.
Totally, totally.
What was I doing to waste all
those days?I agree with you totally.
Yeah, it does take time.
Well, and for any viewers out
there who are like chomping to getinto the market, but they have
(41:37):
paralysis or whatever thesituation is, they're waiting for
interest rates to come down orwhatever.
Time in the market is better thantiming the market.
Way better.
Way better.
I totally agree with that.
So just buy.
Just get something, right?I also feel like leapfrogging up.
I don't understand why peopledon't talk about this more.
Getting in with anything you can,like a condo, even like a one
-bedroom or studio condo that youcan afford and then living in it
for a couple of years, pay downthe mortgage and either refinance
it and buy another one or sell itand buy another one.
That's how you increase your realestate holdings is by leapfrogging
up until you get to a certainpoint and then options are open.
Yeah, I agree with you.
you.
Just getting in the market, Ithink, is the most important
thing.
What is your favorite charity or
how do you give back?For me, giving back is just
(41:58):
sharing my knowledge.
Nice.
On the pod.
Yeah.
So I went to SAIT for myarchitectural technologies.
I've been back multiple timessince.
I speak to future graduates aboutwhat can you do with this career.
It's such a broad schooling,architectural technologies.
Where can you take that and whatkind of career can you make out of
it?And even just going for a coffee
with somebody who wants to learnmore, that's how I give back.
I love it.
love it.
Nice.
(42:18):
That's awesome.
How can our listener or Matt and Ihelp you?
can our listener or Matt and Ihelp you?
I'm currently raising capital forone of those six plexes.
So if you want to learn more aboutthat project or invest yourself,
feel free to reach out.
You can find me at Facebook with
my CM Designs or Noble TerraDevelopments, either or.
Those are ways you can find me.
(42:39):
Yeah, that is such a cool project
out there.
Like good location to it.
It's a wild lot that like I didnot know existed.
So this is Xbox and fellas.
Yeah.
Good for you for finding that.
Cool.
Well, thanks for having me guys.
Yeah, it's been awesome.
Thanks a lot for coming on andsharing your knowledge.
Likewise.
Yeah.
Okay.
Have a good one.
Welcome back to the Kelowna RealEstate Podcast.
(00:01):
I'm your mortgage broker host,Taylor Atkinson.
And I'm your real estate agenthost, Matt Glenn.
What's happening today?Hey, big news.
Bank of Canada, 50 basis pointcut, half a percent off on
variable adjustable ratemortgages.
Doesn't do anything to your fixedrate right now.
But yeah, pretty awesome.
Second consecutive half point
decrease.
Yeah.
So we were all kind of expectinghalf a point off, or at least had
(00:25):
high hopes for that.
Yeah, I was glad that it came
through.
Like what is a variable rate at
right now?If somebody wants to go get a
mortgage, what are we talking?If it's insured, so less than 20 %
down or insurable, we're in thatlike 4 .5 % range.
Okay.
If it's not insured, then we're in
kind of the high 4 .9s.
And what are a fix?
(00:46):
Isn't a fix like around the lowfours?
Yeah.
So again, insured, you know, we're
seeing in like the 4 .14 range canget a little bit cheaper with some
different products, a little bitmore expensive and then not
insured in like that 4 .39 range.
Okay.
So right now fix are stillcheaper, but it's trending towards
variable going down.
Marginally cheaper.
(01:07):
Pretty much all the mortgages I'mdoing right now, obviously we
present.
you know, a few different options.
Here's like your fix.
Here's a 30 year AM, a 25 year AM
variable.
Most people are now just seeing
like, Hey, I'm paying another $20a month to have this variable.
And if I get one rate decrease bya quarter point, I'm going to be
(01:27):
on par.
And then anything after that
saving.
So a lot of people are electing to
go variable now, which is nice tosee.
It's nice to see people have thatflexibility.
It's kind of funny because it'snot that much time.
Well, it's fairly rare in myexperience, obviously, not a
mortgage broker, but the fixed andthe variable are somewhat the
same.
Usually, there's a clear favorite.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the favorite is
(01:49):
variable right now, just purely onprojections.
We're not projecting fixed ratesreally drop a whole lot more.
They're based off the US economy,which is just pumping right now
for obviously... based off rightnow for obviously...
Trump's in there and everyone'sgot high hopes for their economy
and America first kind of thing.
So that doesn't really bode well
for our bond market.
Well, I mean, it does, but it
(02:12):
doesn't bode well for like cheaperfixed rates.
But just because our economy isgetting crushed, that's why we're
seeing a bigger decrease on thevariable rate.
So I think there's still room onthe variable side, probably not a
whole lot more room on the fixedside.
Interesting.
All right.
Good time.
What do you think?
What are your predictions for thenext year's market?
End of the year?Like on rates?
(02:32):
Yeah, rates and also sales.
What do you think's happening?
I don't know.
I got out of the prediction game
as soon as I got into it because Iwas always wrong.
You know what?I was a little less optimistic on
this rate announcement.
I was like quarter point for sure.
Maybe half a point.
It actually surprised me.
I was kind of on the fence.
(02:53):
Really?
You were surprised?Really?
You were Honestly, I was.
Like a month ago, I was like,
okay, two half point cutsconsecutively for sure.
And it kind of wobbled a littlebit.
And then some job numbers came outrecently and it kind of pushed the
other way.
Like it just seems so volatile
still.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't really want to make alot of predictions.
I don't really want to make a lotof predictions.
(03:15):
I did notice that the narrativehad changed.
It was like quarter point, half ofmy quarter point.
And then I thought the consensuswas pretty much a half point a
couple of days ago.
Interesting what happens on
January 29th now, because that'sthe next cut, right?
Yeah, I think we'll see a couplemore cuts, whether that's a
quarter point or half a point,whatever it's going to be into the
spring.
And then obviously, that's going
to heat up the market a littlebit.
And I think a lot of these newlegislation changes with CMHC,
(03:36):
like insured products for first-time homebuyers on a 30 -year
amortization, or insured up to amillion and a half, or insurable
with a 2 million if you're puttingit into the basement renovation,
like all these incentives arereally going to support, you know,
houses specifically in Kelowna inthat price point that were before
out of people's range.
So with a couple more rate cuts
(03:57):
and a couple more of these and lowinventory, yeah, I think in the
single family home, we're going tosee things pick up pretty
aggressively.
Nice, nice.
But that was me just saying, I'mnot in the prediction.
What do you think?I think I agree with that totally.
I think single families are goingto... have a bit of a i don't want
to say a boom but an uptick forsure 2025 seems like even right
(04:20):
now like anecdotally in mybusiness i feel like the last few
weeks i've seen a noted increasein sales and most of them have
been single family so it's itseems like it's coming alive early
it kind of is funny ourtraditional markets like where
it's like busy in the springslower in the summer busy in the
fall sore in the winter it's justnot really materialized for like
five years It's just been off eversince COVID hit.
(04:43):
So I wonder if we get back to thatat some point.
Right now, there's definitely anuptick that we've seen.
Yeah, absolutely.
This has been, for my business,
the most productive.
It's been this three -month
stretch in any fall, winterseason.
So if that shows anything into thespring.
But yeah, hey, this is the lastshow for us for 2024.
Before we take a break over theholidays.
So that's two solid calendar yearsthat we've done the show.
(05:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pat on the back to us.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's been fun, man.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Thanks for partnering.
It's been fun.
We have still not figured out allthe technicals.
Like for some reason I'm superbright right now.
Can't figure this out, but we'regetting there.
We're getting down the hosting.
We're getting down the having
guests on.
(05:24):
It's been a ton of fun.
Yeah.
And yeah, thanks for the listeners
to support and hope everyone has asafe and happy holiday.
Today's guest, we brought onCurtis Mitchell.
He's local in Kelowna right now.
He's the principal at CM Designs
LTD.
So I met him through doing some
renovation projects.
I walked through one of his spec
homes that he's GC'd himself.
So he's a licensed home builder as
(05:45):
well.
Super creative and ambitious.
He's buying land, subdividing.
you know, redeveloping, going
through the BP, DP process, startto finish, right?
Like it's pretty cool to seesomeone do it all.
Yeah, to see someone do it all.
he's just tackling it head on.
Yeah.
So he's got a couple different
businesses, but yeah, that's kindof the one I know most about is CM
(06:07):
Designs.
And like, if you want someone
incredibly fast and can take yourvision and throw it on a piece of
paper and then get it approved bythe city, highly recommend
reaching out to him.
Like really.
Really impressive how fast heturns things around.
So yeah, just a personalappreciation to him.
But I think you guys will enjoythe show.
(06:28):
Also a great podcast guest.
Yeah.
It was awesome to talk to you.
It was a lot of fun.
show.
Also a Yeah.
Yeah.
He's a great guy.
So enjoy the show, guys.
This episode, like every episode,
is sponsored by the best brokeragein town.
Best brokers in the interior,let's be honest.
Century 21 Assurance Realty.
We are expanding.
We're going to Kamloops.
We're going to the Kootenays.
(06:49):
We're going to Salmon Arm.
We just opened a shop in Creston.
Taylor knows all about Creston.
So we are there now too.
Things are looking good.
So if you're ready to join a
brokerage that is expanding size-wise, but also geographically, we
are the one for you.
So if you're looking for a new
brokerage for the new year, giveus a call.
Give me a call.
Give Dean a call.
Max, love to talk to you.
Or if you're a buyer or a seller
(07:11):
looking for an agent anywhere inthe interior, pretty much, So we
are Century 21 Assurance Realty isthe brokerage for you.
Okay, welcome to the show, CurtisMitchell.
How's it going, man?Good, thanks.
How are you?Good.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, so how we like to start ourshow is just kind of what does
your perfect Friday look like interms of work, productivity, what
gives you energy, and then a bitof fun leading into the weekend?
(07:32):
Well, to answer that, I wish youcould treat every day like Friday.
In a perfect world, there would beno differentiating between Mondays
and Fridays.
Just become a realtor.
Every day is the same.
You never work.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, like the perfect day for me
would still be very muchstructured, right.
much structured, getting up 6 a m., checking the emails, going to
the gym, getting the bulk majorityof my work done in the morning,
(07:53):
and then off by 2 o 'clock.
Nice.
Then you can spend it biking,hiking, or in the case of a
Friday, getting ready to go.
jaunt off somewhere, whether it's
Explore BC or elsewhere.
Are you from Kelowna originally?
Calgary.
Okay, sweet.
Yeah.
How long have you been here?
Yeah, 11 years.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Wouldn't go back.
Yeah.
We hear that a lot around here.
(08:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've had friends move toCalgary and they're still there.
And yeah, Calgary people comehere, but that's a pretty good
spot.
Okay, well, tell us about your
business and what you do.
I mean, you have two businesses,
so we'll kind of break this downinto two parts of the show.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, if you want to kind of start
(08:39):
on the architect background, likedesign and everything like that,
what you do, that'd be great.
Yeah, so I'll go back to my
background, I'm an architecturaltechnologist.
And I worked for an architect intown, Meiklejohn Architects, for
five years.
And then started my own company,
CM Designs.
So I specialize in subdivisions,
rezonings, blueprints, anywherefrom renovations, single family
homes, duplexes, fourplexes, thatkind of thing.
(09:00):
and helping clients anywhere inbetween all of those phases.
Yeah, it's got to be a tough job.
Like for me, I just wouldn't be
able to see the vision.
Like you have to translate what
somebody communicates you overemail or a 10 minute conversation
into like what they'reenvisioning.
And I just could not do that.
But you seem to just thrive in it.
What kind of sets you apart?Like, what do you love about it so
much?It's not just me.
not just me.
(09:21):
I use a pretty powerful software
that helps me visualize things aswell.
But going back to my childhood, Iused to draft plans with crayons,
like literally at four years old.
So I feel like I found my passion,
my path.
I've always had a passion for
(09:45):
design.
And what sets me apart, I think
just listening.
Number one, listen to concerns,
maybe not related to the buildingsso much, but...
You want to understand how do theclients live?
Do they need a sink in theirpantry versus whatever?
You want to get down to how theylive day to day, and that'll help
you design the building.
Yeah.
Are there trends people are doingright now, or are you working on
such one -off type properties thatthere's no one thing that stands
(10:08):
out as what's working in Kelownaright now?
I work a lot with developers, sothe trend is what can make money.
Right.
Well, yeah, it's got to be tough.
And not cost money, money, Iguess.
Yeah, for sure.
Like there's always that sweet
spot, like, you know, 1400 squarefoot townhouse is making money.
You make it too big and you'rebuilding for too much and it's not
(10:33):
profitable.
So my job is so multi -layered
because there's the custom homewhere you're working with a client
aspect.
And then there's the working with
a developer and trying to make aprofitable project.
So are you doing a lot of theinfill work?
a lot of the infill work?Are you working a lot on that?
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The BC government changed the
zoning in February of 2024.
(10:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then trickle down, Kelowna
changed their zoning.
So infill lots in Kelowna can now
support six units, whereaspreviously they would only be able
to support a single family housewith secondary suite.
Have there been a lot of sixplexus being built?
Not yet.
Because I know that that changed
this, but I haven't seen, I don'tthink any.
Or very few that have come on thatare actually sixes are all still
doing the four.
(11:14):
For sure.
Yeah.
It all comes down to parking.
Yes.
You always have to provide one
parking stall per unit.
So if you've got a lot that can't
support the parking, you can'tbuild the six.
But also the zoning is pretty new.
It only came out in June.
only And as we know, the market ispretty slow.
So we're not seeing constructionin the last half of 2024 or so.
But you think of all the productsthat would sell, you think that a
(11:39):
sixplex units would sell is alittle cheaper, easier to get
into.
For sure.
I guess a lot of things have to beconsidered there.
sure.
Do you think they'll ever give
exception on that, like parkingvariance?
Or even with the, was it the topfloor has to be like 70 % of the
overall footprint?I think it's a residential bylaw
in Kelowna where like...
They just want it to look like a
residential town, but it seemslike such a waste of space.
(12:02):
If we're talking aboutaffordability and building
vertically, densification, do youever see those kind of bylaws
going away?Or are we just going to start with
the infill and see what happens?There are certain areas in Kelowna
that are parking exempt.
They've called them the core
areas.
We've got downtown proper and
then... the hospital district, andthen Rutland.
So those areas already are havingparking exemptions.
So you could build that six, well,you can build more dense than the
(12:24):
sixplex.
You could build a 30 unit
apartment building and not providea parking stall.
None?Yeah.
Man, the neighbors must love that.
It doesn't make sense.
Yeah.
So are there things that are
changing as things progress?And yes, there are, but you got to
ask yourself.
Are all of these things good?
I agree with you, the 70 % rule.
That's kind of dumb, but no
parking, that's no good.
(12:44):
Kelowna is like a car city because
you need a car to go everywhere.
no good.
Kelowna is like a car city becauseyou need a car to go everywhere.
The transit isn't really goodenough to bring you there.
I don't know.
I'm not totally opposed to the no
parking, but yeah, they need tohave the infrastructure.
(13:05):
If they had a little subway orsomething, just...
It would make sense if there was aparkade around or something, but
just have middle of residential,put a sixplex and no parking.
It's not like those people are notgoing to have cars.
Yeah.
Agreed.
So like, I don't know, theneighbors all of a sudden are
going to have cars in front ofthem.
(13:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So to kind of go back to, I guess,the developers making money, hard
thing to do right now.
But do you find like there's a
disconnect?I mean, you're obviously like...
very well versed and lucky to bein a position to be like a home
builder, like a licensed homebuilder and an architect.
I find like a lot of architectsare not, which then you, you make
some beautiful drawings, but thenthe builder probably gets it.
And they're like, holy crap, thisis going to cost a fortune.
(13:48):
Or like, how do we make this work?Do you find that it's like, people
are being more realistic nowadays.
Like, okay, we're going to
simplify these designs.
And same with like the fast track
Kelowna has, like, let's starttrying to design things that are.
cost effective or do you stillfind like Kelowna is one of those
markets where people just wantwhat they want and you know the
bill comes later well I'm gonnahave to start by correcting you
because I can't represent asarchitect okay you have to call me
(14:11):
as architectural technologist or Ican get in a lot of trouble it
sounds smarter to be honest whatis an architect technologist
what's the difference it's just atech diploma okay so yeah two
years in and out and I'm gonnahave to start by correcting you
because I can't represent asarchitect okay you have to call me
as architectural technologist or Ican get in a lot of trouble it
sounds smarter to be honest whatis an architect technologist
(14:34):
what's the difference it's just atech diploma okay so yeah two
years in and out and It gives youthe knowledge to draft things
versus an architect.
You'd have to get a master's
degree and you'd have to write aboards exam.
And yeah, it's like a 10 yearprocess to become an architect.
Nice.
Yeah.
Regarding is Kelowna just buildingwhatever, or are they looking for
efficiencies?When it comes to a single family
house, especially like I've workedon some nice homes on the lake and
(14:57):
whatnot.
Yeah.
People don't care.
They want what looks good.
They want something cool.
But then a lot of these infill
houses, well, I would say all theinfill housing, we're looking for
efficiencies.
We're looking at, you know,
stacking your point loads andhaving your exterior walls stack
on top of each other forefficiencies in construction
methods.
And that also sets me apart from
(15:18):
other designers in town because Ihave the building background and I
build for myself.
I can find those efficiencies and
I can make sure that the buildingis actually going to be
constructed with reduced buildcosts, let's say.
Yeah.
You have no one to blame then.
one to blame then.
Hey, you can't go back to the
architect technologist and belike, oh, they screwed this
drawing up.
I'm the builder.
I'm so angry at them.
You're just mad at yourself.
Yeah, for sure.
Pivoting a little bit.
So what's your second company thatyou've started where basically
you're building spec homes,infill?
Like, yeah, let's talk a littlebit about that.
Sure.
(15:38):
Yeah.
So started another company in2022, fairly recent.
Got my general contractor'slicense and started a company
called Noble Terra Developments.
I've done two projects or they're
currently ongoing right now.
Lucky enough, actually, I got to
do my first project on my parents'property.
So they've got a one acre parcelin Lower Mission.
I rezoned it.
to a smaller lot zoning, and then
subdivided it into four lots.
(15:58):
And then I've just finished my
first single family development onthe one lot.
So that's kind of where I'mstanding currently.
But I went from rezoning,subdivision, building permit, the
whole works, and then built outthe project.
I understand the process verywell.
And then I'm doing the sameproject in a site in Clifton, up
Clifton Road, very similar.
rezoning subdivision.
How long does the rezoningsubdivision take?
(16:20):
Is it a reasonable process or anyefficiencies you can see?
Rezoning takes anywhere fromminimum six months up to a year or
even 18 months.
The process is pretty
straightforward once youunderstand it, but you have to
rely a lot on consultants.
That's the biggest time factor.
So you have to get civil engineersinvolved, environmental engineers.
This site I have in Clifton, it'sheavily forested.
I had to get a wildfireenvironmental consultant involved.
(16:42):
So that's what makes the rezoningprocess take so long or become so
complicated because depending onthe area and the lay of the lands,
you're going to have all thesedifferent consultants that need to
plug in.
Yeah.
So with the wildfire, just likecurious.
So they write a report being like,hey, if there were to be a
(17:02):
wildfire, like there's these pointof exits or like there has to be
sprinklers installed.
And he must have been doing this
during the fire.
must have been doing this during
the fire.
It was right after the fire.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, you should be good for another20 years here.
(17:22):
Yeah.
They basically just say trim trees
that are four inches.
in diameter or smaller.
And then that's the mitigationportion.
So I don't know, I guess it'sscientific that fire doesn't
spread through a five inch tree.
Yeah, I don't know.
five Yeah, I think Ponderosa Pinesand their bark a little bit fire
(17:42):
resistant.
Maybe, maybe that's what it comes
down to.
Yeah, this is imposed by the city,
obviously, to be like, okay, ifyou're going to subdivide in these
areas, these are the steps youneed to take.
And then it's on you to basicallyreach out to these.
(18:03):
Experts.
Yeah.
So that's the rezoning portion,which has all these different
consultants.
The civil engineer is the most
important, always involved everysingle rezoning or subdivision,
because the civil engineer isgoing to tell you how many
sanitary, how many water lines,electric communications for each
(18:24):
lot, right?And then not only are they
responsible for designing thatportion, But when you actually
hire a contractor to install it,they are responsible for
inspecting the install, signingoff, and then the project signed
off.
Now your lots are available to
build.
Yeah.
It's a lot of onus on them.
Do you feel we just don't have
enough civil engineers in Kelowna?Totally.
Yeah.
Like it seems like a very slow
process to work with them.
I totally agree.
(18:45):
Yeah.
I think that's a small niche that
somebody could fill.
Yeah.
More engineers.
You almost think it should be
something like more promoted.
Like if that's the bottleneck in
building more homes, right?Like if that process, I know they
have done the fast track systemwhere basically, yeah, you can get
(19:07):
like a BP DP within like 10 days,but you know, that's on like very
specific lots.
So it's, I guess it's going in
that direction, but yeah, if theyhad like civil engineers on
payroll, that could kind of work alittle bit faster.
It might help.
I totally agree.
Everybody talks about we're in ahousing crisis and they really
have done a good thing by speedingup the process of getting permits
out the door.
(19:28):
That's building permits.
Nobody really talks about thewhole subdividing or rezoning
portion and the civil engineeringside of things, which eats up a
lot of time for a developer.
Yeah.
How are you finding deals?I remember we spoke a little while
ago and you were like, heading offto go do some door knocking.
(19:50):
What's good about that?good about that?
I'm not opposed to getting myboots in the ground and knocking
on doors for sure to find somedeals.
I found that didn't work great inKelowna.
There's a lot of educated peoplein Kelowna.
They know what their propertiesare valued at.
So if you're trying to get a deal,yes, you can find it door
knocking, but you're going to haveto be pretty persistent.
(20:12):
Got to hit a lot of doors beforeyou find a deal.
I still find looking on for saleby owner or Facebook, Kijiji, like
finding an owner deal, that'sgoing to be one of the best places
to find a deal.
And I still think there's good
opportunities on MLS as well.
I'm assuming you're researching
like specific areas that arepermitted more for densification.
assuming you're researching likespecific areas that are permitted
(20:33):
more for densification.
What are you looking for exactly?
For my own projects?my own projects?
Yeah.
I don't have a specific area that
I would target.
If the numbers work, the numbers
work.
I want to make sure that there's
good appreciation in the area ifI'm going to buy a project or buy
a property in that specific area.
But yeah, you just got to crunch
(20:53):
the numbers and make sure itworks.
And you shouldn't be so focused onthe part of town that it's in.
Yeah.
I think Kelowna is pretty safe
too.
I think all the areas are bound to
appreciate.
For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know Rutland got a lot of harpfor a lot of years, but - I think
it's a fantastic place to invest.
The lots are gigantic.
(21:15):
The city's favorable to rezoningand development.
I think it's a fantastic place toinvest.
Totally.
Yeah.
Get closer to Big White.
closer to Big White.
Get closer to the airport.
Yeah.
It really is on the up too.
I totally agree with that.
Yeah.
Like room for growth and
appreciation.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you like more, designingor building?
I love design.
love design.
Always have.
(21:35):
Yeah.
That's definitely my passion.
Construction is challenging.
There's a lot of intricacies thatI never thought you'd have to deal
with.
Being a contractor is like being a
babysitter for adults.
There's just so many personalities
that don't get along.
The tile setter hates the
carpenter and so on and so forth.
It's just a trickle down effect of
(21:56):
making my life hard.
What made you want to get your
building license then?I have a control issue.
have a control That's what itcomes down to.
what it comes down to.
I don't want to hire somebody else
to build my projects.
Yeah.
So. That's fair.
I mean, I always been hands on,
you know, similar to you, likerenovating my own bathrooms and
various other projects I've takenon my own homes.
So I already had a goodunderstanding of the construction
process and figured I'd just do itmyself.
I should set you up to interviewmy babysitter because she is.
(22:19):
set you up to interview mybabysitter because she is.
Incredible.
Shout out to Josie, but she could
probably manage trades.
No problem, man.
out to Josie, but she couldprobably Yeah.
Well -timed snack here and there.
Well snack here and there.
You're good to go.
Seriously.
But you're right, man.
Like, yeah, even like GC and your
own little home projects andstuff.
One trade guy doesn't show up ontime.
(22:40):
So it's the other guy back andthen they don't come and like
something's over budget.
Or you get somebody in the wrong
order.
get somebody in the wrong order.
You know, like there's a lot ofthings that can go.
Yeah, it's a lot.
It's a lot of responsibility.
How long did the build in loremission take?
I was on schedule to be done ineight months.
a lot of was on schedule to bedone in eight months.
(23:03):
Wow, that's good.
I had some weird things like HVAC
guy went to jail and didn't showup with my equipment and this kind
of stuff.
So I actually could have done it.
kind Well, I was going to do it inthe eight months.
I think it took nine and a half.
(23:25):
Yeah.
You know, that's the other thing.
You don't know who you're hiring
until you find out they're injail.
That's funny.
I guess what was like the biggest
opportunity or biggest thing thatyou loved about that build and
kind of the worst thing, like whatcatastrophically went wrong and
you would have changed it on thenext one?
Like what lessons did you learn?Well, what I loved about it was,
you know, I spent so much timedesigning things.
(23:48):
I wouldn't say so much time.
I have this vision in my head and
then it becomes a drawing on mycomputer.
And then to actually physicallysee that thing.
constructed that's the thing ilike the most so rewarding totally
yeah totally there's somethingabout construction that's really
rewarding in the sense that youcan physically see change every
single day i know it's crazy evenlike if you like tile a wall it's
like oh my god that looked likeshit yesterday and now it's like a
(24:12):
work of art totally you knowthat's just one thing of one thing
and then every single day is iknow i find that too when i'm
doing projects like that it'sreally awesome know it's crazy
even like if you like tile a wallit's like oh my god that looked
like shit yesterday and now it'slike a work of art totally you
know that's just one thing of onething and then every single day is
i know i find that too when i'mdoing projects like that it's
really awesome That was superrewarding.
You see this masterpiece come tolife.
(24:33):
The thing that went wrong was thebabysitting of trades.
I didn't realize how much effortwould be involved dealing with
different people and differentpersonalities.
You think people can just come inand do their job.
Not the case.
No, no, no, my friend.
I feel like too, when did youbuild this?
What year was it?I finished in June of 2024.
So this year.
Okay.
So you're building in a slowermarket.
I think in 2021, 2022, it wouldhave been even worse.
(24:55):
Yeah.
Way worse.
For trades.
Yeah.
Because they just, you know, thisone's getting hard.
Let's just go to the next one.
We'll come back when we get time
for this one.
Totally.
Right.
Where now it's getting a little
more skinny out there.
So I think it's more of an
incentive to do it.
So you probably got the best part
of that.
Yeah.
From a build perspective, maybe.
Yeah.
From a resale perspective, not somuch.
(25:17):
Throws and cons of everything.
Actually, going back to what I
learned, the biggest thing Ioverlooked is that you're so stuck
in the day -to -day.
so much.
that you're so stuck in the day-to -day.
Okay, we're getting the tile in,we're getting the flooring in,
this and that.
You overlook the fact that you got
to sell this product at the end ofthe day.
And if I was to do it over, I'dspend money on advertising the
(25:37):
product while you're constructingit.
It's pretty well sold by the timeit's done.
That's an important thing from adeveloper perspective that I think
gets overlooked as well.
Yeah.
I guess the only downside to thatis if you sell it three months
previous, then you have anothercook in the kitchen saying like,
oh, you know what?I actually want this tile or
something.
But that's all in the contract.
If it's drafted out properly, thenit doesn't really matter.
If it's sold, you're happy.
I think it still matters.
I think even if it was in thecontract, if somebody's got to be
in their bonnet.
You're going to hear about it,
right?Yeah, I think you're going to have
(25:57):
that issue.
going to hear about it, right?
Yeah, pros and cons to everything,but I feel like I'd rather be in
the bonnet than a product sittingon the market for months because I
fund these projects with privateequity and you've got a $20 ,000 a
month mortgage and you can eat upyour profit pretty quick with
that.
market got a $20 ,000 a month
mortgage and you can eat up yourprofit pretty quick with that.
(26:20):
Yeah, I think that's a good way todo it, way to do it, for sure.
Do you prefer renovations or newbuilds?
Oh, new builds all day.
Yeah.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah, that's fair.
Yeah.
Is it just purely because like you
get a clean slate and like it'syour kind of vision going into it?
For sure.
There's that too.
Clean slate and you just get tostart from new from scratch.
(26:40):
But from a design perspective.
People think, oh, I'm just doing a
little addition here, adding asecondary suite, and they think
that it should be of lesser value.
But it's more work from a drafting
perspective because you have toredraft the building and you have
to work with the existingstructure.
Going behind the scenes of whatyou don't see, like the
foundations, can they support thisadditional level?
Or things that were built in the70s just aren't up to today's
(27:00):
standards.
Like, where do you find that
information?You find the city files
originally, or do you kind of likedo a site visit and you do that
inspection?Or do you then like call in a
civil engineer, like if theaddition is that large, if they're
going to build vertically orsomething like, yeah, where do you
start that process?I would always start by calling
the city and getting those files.
(27:20):
Most of the time they do have the
drawings filed away, but.
I've been burned in the past
because not a lot of people, Ishouldn't say not a lot, but I'd
say 50 % of my projects weren'tbuilt to the existing drawings.
Whether a wall is out of foot hereor they put a different sloped
roof on.
So even if I start with that as a
base, I always have to account fordoing a site visit and double
checking the measurements to makesure that it's accurate.
(27:43):
Because if you're putting a rooftie in, onto an existing truss and
the trusses that are on site aredifferent from what the original
drawings showed, you can see howquickly that can screw up a build.
What about things like plumbingstacks and stuff like that?
Do you just go find them beforeyou go?
When it comes to plumbing and HVACsystems, I don't draw any of that
stuff.
My scope is related to building
walls, anything life safety.
guardrails smoke detectors i guess
(28:06):
bathroom fans is kind of one thatcrosses over but yeah i wouldn't
show plumbing stacks and if youwere doing a renovation it would
be up to the contractor to findthat and and move it or tie into
it or the updated edition drawingslike once the bp is complete the
city will hang on to the newrevision of those drawings like
that's the city's responsibilityit's not up to like the homeowner
(28:26):
guess the updated edition drawingslike once the bp is complete the
city will hang on to the newrevision of those drawings like
that's the city's responsibilityit's not up to like the homeowner
contractor to like make sure thatthose files are held by the city
yeah i don't know what the cityhas sure they have a huge cloud
database that's wild like but okayso like from experience colonna is
(28:48):
very organized with all these likethey keep the permits and stuff
like that like the files yousubmit for that to get their
approval but you go to somewherelike lake country or vernon you
ask for the city file and it'slike one sheet of paper that may
or may not be useful in any wayright so like it's not i don't
know what the city has sure theyhave a huge cloud database that's
(29:09):
like but okay so like fromexperience colonna is very
organized with all these like theykeep the permits and stuff like
that like the files you submit forthat to get their approval but you
go to somewhere like lake countryor vernon you ask for the city
file and it's like one sheet ofpaper that may or may not be
useful in any way right so likeit's not the same so i feel like
(29:33):
talking like this is talking aboutcolonna specifically i think
because it's just not the sameyeah you know yeah good point and
lake country is terrible for notonly collection of like a theme of
the show yeah yeah is that right ilove lake country good point and
lake country is terrible for notonly collection of like a theme of
show yeah is love lake countryYeah, driving through it.
(29:54):
Even that, actually, as soon asyou get to Lake Country, you can
just tell it's Lake Countrybecause the roads all of a sudden
have potholes.
We're going to get sued.
going to get sued.
I'm not kidding.
You can tell.
But yeah, it's a beautiful place.
(30:15):
Beautiful place.
Anti -development.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Work at an Italian restaurant inthere, though, too.
too.
Okay.
I don't want to get to the part ofthe wrap -up show, but I want to
focus a lot on one of the wrap -upquestions is like, if you were to
buy one property in the Okanaganin the next 12 months, what would
it be?And I want to spend like five
minutes on this question.
Sure.
So I've been working with thisdeveloper partner, Devin Ward is
who I'm working with.
And we've been looking at purpose
-built rentals.
So picking up one of those sixplex
(30:35):
lots?How come?
Why?Why purpose -built rental?
Yes.
Some people might say that it's
saturated, like there's a lot ofbig players in town doing purpose
-built rental.
Let me just mention this.
There's developer incentives forrentals right now.
now.
So this is where my question is
leading.
Because of the favorable
financing, because of thedeveloper incentives, there is a
lot of people doing purpose -builtrentals.
We have property taxes.
Is it because the government is
(30:56):
basically telling people to go dopurpose -built rentals?
Is it because the Yeah, I mean,that is a factor for sure.
They're waiving property taxes for10 years if you specifically build
to purpose -built rental.
So that's a huge factor.
And then if you use CMHC financingand secure a 50 -year loan, it
outperforms a build -to -sellmodel.
You're holding onto it andwatching this product appreciate
over 10 years, and then you sellthat asset to... a REIT or real
estate investment group.
So that would be the first product
I would look at buying is thesesixplex lots.
A lot easier than building a multi-unit, like an apartment building
or multi -phased townhousesbecause these lots are ready to
go.
You can knock down a single family
house and get started tomorrow.
Do you have like a minimum size
requirement for that?23 meters wide is the minimum to
ensure that you have enoughparking.
Like off the top of my head, likethose lots are pretty much in
rolling.
much in rolling.
Rutland, there's a couple in thehospital area.
Okay.
We got a whole spreadsheet of all
(31:19):
the lots that work in GLONAP.
all the lots that work in GLONAP.
Did you guys just go on like theGIS mapping system?
Yeah.
Basically, yeah.
Yeah.
There should be like AI that would
just pick those out, no?That would be pretty sweet.
Yeah.
It would for sure help.
I've done this too.
Because before, when the RU7s came
(31:40):
out, it had to be 15 .24 meterswide.
Yeah.
Right?
I had a list of every RU7 lot inKelowna that was 15 .24.
And then I went and knocked on allthe doors.
So you can.
It's the same thing as he's doing
right now for that.
But yeah, an AI, if I knew how to
even do basic shit on my computer,would be perfect for that.
That's above me.
Yeah.
If you could create an AI pluginfor City of Kelowna Map Viewer,
(32:00):
that'd be pretty cool.
pretty cool.
I bet you something's in theworks.
I bet you it's got to be.
City of Kelowna probably has the
data on it.
cool.
I bet of Kelowna probably has thedata on it.
Those properties that he's talkingabout.
are pretty rare right there's not10 000 properties that are 24
meters wide right so like you havejust only so many it doesn't take
(32:21):
that long to figure it out totallythere aren't a lot that can
support the sixplex yeah and thenlike you look at the ones on there
some of them are going to beteardowns which are perfect for
you but some of them are going tobe like ball and hoses which no
sense to buy to tear down so likeit's pretty easy to narrow down
the list yeah right yeah yeah evenwhen we did our list yeah are
(32:45):
there aren't a lot that can thesixplex yeah and then like you
look at the ones on there some ofthem are going to be teardowns
which are perfect for you but someof them are going to be like ball
and hoses which no sense to buy totear down so like it's pretty easy
(33:05):
to narrow down the list yeah rightyeah even when we did our list
yeah Then you get out, start doorknocking and you realize that it's
that baller house and they'regoing to want way too much for it.
This doesn't make sense.
Or there's a carrot house already
on it or stuff like that.
there's a carrot house already on
(33:26):
it or stuff like that.
Would you start looking at buying
two side -by -side lots that equalthe same needed distance?
Yeah, totally.
I also had thought about that.
I don't know if you'd be ableto... make the numbers run well
you'd have to be strategic in theway you develop that but basically
you're buying two lots and you'reonly putting a three plex on each
in that scenario well i wasthinking you could redevelop and
(33:46):
put a six but like yeah so threeper lot so from a realtor
perspective like you have two lotsi was thinking you could redevelop
and put a six but like yeah sothree per lot so from a realtor
perspective like you have two lotsAnd then as soon as they know the
neighbor wants to sell it, they'regoing to want land assembly value.
Oh, man.
You drive down Gordon, I feel like
(34:06):
every single house is a landassembly.
From a homeowner perspective, whywould you not?
When you can sell your house onthe market, get 1 .1, or you put
it in a land assembly, sell itwith your neighbor, and get 1 .6,
even if it takes two years.
if it years.
Oh, you're telling me I can get 1.6 if I'm the same?
For this thing?No. Okay, you shouldn't be
preaching that though becauseeveryone's like, yeah, land
assembly, I'm going to make allthis money.
(34:26):
Oh, land assemblies are brutal.
all this money.
Oh, land assemblies are brutal.
They're not selling very well at
all right now because of this.
Because the prices are just
through the roof.
But I guess why would you not list
your house if you have fourneighbors to your left and four
neighbors to your right?You're like, to your right?
You're like, I'm going to be stuckin the middle.
You're not in a rush.
Their house is not for sale.
They don't care if they sell ornot.
(34:49):
So you just put it for sale.
It takes two years or a year.
They don't care.
They're removed anyway.
And then when you bring them acheck for 500 grand more than they
would get on the market, why not?This is why there's a million land
assemblies for sale right now inKelowna.
And there's not that many peoplebuying them.
What's the logic there?You're the logic there?
They increase the value becauseyou can build something denser.
Basically, you just increase thedensity.
So instead of building a six-pleck, you get three together.
Now you can build 72 units.
So the cost per square foot per
unit.
it goes way down right from your
experience who's buying that stuffright now not that many people but
like it's all -time developers soi think there is a stat and i'm
gonna butcher this a little bitbut it'll be close like all of the
stats on this show yeah there waslike 105 land assemblies listed in
(35:09):
2024 and five of them sold yeah ohyeah so we're talking five percent
if you're listed you don't have avery good chance so that's this
year but in 2021 they would sellimmediately people but like it's
all -time developers so i thinkthere is a stat and i'm gonna
butcher this a little bit butit'll be close like all of the
stats on this show yeah there waslike 105 land assemblies listed in
(35:31):
2024 and five of them sold yeah ohyeah so we're talking five percent
if you're listed you don't have awe're talking good chance so
that's this year but in 2021 sowould sell immediately for way
more money right so likeeveryone's just hoping that the
market turns around and they comeout and start buying these things
and then developer incentivessaying build purpose -built rental
like build the 72 -unit purpose-built rental with like 40 -year
amortizations no property taxesall the other incentives in the
world the homeowners are like wellfuck it i'm gonna make this money
too and we've spoken about thisthat screams like okay we're
(35:51):
taking away an asset class that isexisting and needed and we're
putting rentals there we're gonnaincrease our rental population
which is not a bad thing or goodthing but like it's gonna go up by
five or ten percent well we'rejust taking home ownership away
from people incentivizing rentalsyeah yeah yeah should we not be
incentivizing like okay we'retaking away an asset class that is
existing and needed and we'reputting rentals there we're gonna
increase our rental populationwhich is not a bad thing or good
thing but like it's gonna go up byfive or ten percent well we're
(36:13):
just taking home ownership awayfrom people incentivizing rentals
yeah yeah yeah should we not beincentivizing Home builders,
single families.
I'm just telling you how it is.
I guess we are with CMHC financingup to a million and a half now
insured.
They are coming, but it's mostly
for first -time homebuyers.
Also, just telling you how it is.
I guess we are when you have nohousing or shortage of housing,
you take a lot that has a single-family house on it or two.
That's two units.
If they have suites, that's four.
You tear it down and build aminimum of six per.
(36:34):
If you do a land assembly, waymore than that, 10 times that.
It makes sense for... buildingmore houses.
When that incentive is just buildmore housing, regardless of what
it is, this is the best way to doit.
I just think that's what'shappening right now.
It bears in mind, what isaffordable housing anymore?
What does that look like fromsomebody looking to get into the
(36:55):
market and buy something?Most people still can't afford a
$1 .5 million house, which isprobably what the average new home
is going for right now.
On the lowest end.
the lowest end.
You're looking at townhouses now,
which is what the incentives are,whether you're rental or not.
That's what the city is shootingfor.
But is a list price of $700 ,000,$800 ,000, is that still
achievable for people?Yeah.
(37:16):
Yeah.
I don't know.
It is.
Well, yeah.
So maybe a good segue.
So first option would be building
sixplex.
What would be a second play that
you would do investment -wise orpersonally, whatever you want to
buy?I know the question was in the
Okanagan.
know the question was in the
Okanagan.
But I would probably look at
Alberta investing or even USinvesting and looking at apartment
buildings there, a 10 unitminimum.
The unit's cash flow.
If you get something in Alberta or
you go down to the States and youbuy it, it's really hard to find
multifamily projects that are cashflowing in the Okanagan unless
you're doing purpose built, likefrom the ground up development.
Even that though, that though,like will there be a glutton in
supply here?I know.
Good question.
Talked in five years when all
these projects come to fruition?A lot of the pushback I get just
(37:39):
in my day -to -day from purpose-built rentals is that in 10, 20
years, we're basically just goingto have these dumpy buildings all
over town that just nobody caresfor.
When you build them, obviously,they're not custom homes.
They're not going to be like that.
But are they built to the same
quality that you would own thatyou sell?
Are they going to hold up overtime?
Or is it just a maintenanceproblem?
I feel like a REIT might do apretty good job of maintaining the
(38:04):
property over the years, but Idon't know, maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe some of them will, some ofthem won't.
What do you think about that?How are these buildings going to
look 10, 20 years from now?Yeah, I can't speak for other
developers.
I can speak like when I think
about a sixplex development or anydevelopment in that matter, I
strive for the best productpossible.
I think about myself living inthat unit.
I still want... the high -endluxury items that people come to
expect, like quartz counters andsolid wood cabinets and the rest
of it.
But I think the same thing as you.
You see all these four or five-story wood frame condos going up.
And sure, it works for right now,but that's not the best use of
space, especially in a region suchas Kelowna where we can't spread
(38:24):
outwards.
So I don't know what's going to
happen in...
10 years when we're looking for
more densification and tearingthose things down and building
towers at that point like that'swhat we're doing with single
family homes right now well sodoes that mean though single
family home is a good investmentright now i don't know i think
probably i think so yeah i thinkso too and existing it's hard to
make it work on the new buildsyeah yeah i think there's going to
(38:48):
be a lack of single family homesin the next 10 years that's for
sure it's so obvious what we'redoing with single family homes
right now well so does that meanthough single family home is a
good investment right now i don'tknow i think probably i think so
yeah i think too and existing it'shard to make it work on the new
(39:10):
builds yeah think there's going tobe a lack of single family homes
in the next 10 years that's forsure so obvious Right.
I think so, too.
I think you got to buy a single
family home because we're justlike actively tearing them down
everywhere you look.
Right.
And we're not putting it back up.
You know what?
know what?Probably every growing city
(39:31):
reaches this capacity point,though, where it's like, hey, we
need to go vertical.
We need to go densification.
And you just get rid of singlefamily homes.
Yeah.
Like maybe people just get
accustomed to living in.
just get accustomed to living in.
Like Vancouver does this, right?But then they still have their
single family neighborhoods.
They go crazy prices.
You get like a dump.
It's like $3 million for this
(39:52):
thing that doesn't even have afront door, right?
So like, you know?Man, you're just chewing this dump
in this late country.
Well, I just mean, Well, I just
mean, yeah.
You know?
The proof is in the pudding thatthe values went up a lot of single
family homes there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The tough thing is too, because
the BC government just announcedall these new rules about
(40:12):
flipping, right?Yeah.
So in a previous world, A yearago, you would have been able to
buy that dump and fix it up andactually bring this old 70s home
back up to nice standards.
Improve the neighborhood.
Totally.
But now they're forcing us into a
position where, oh, you're goingto get hit with all these capital
gains implications if you flipthat house.
So a developer is like, well, Ican only make money if I'm
redeveloping it and putting...
(40:34):
that sixplex or the fourplex on
that lot.
Yeah, good point.
point.
All right.
Well, yeah, we'll keep moving onhere.
If you could tell your 20 -year-old self one thing, what would it
be?Yeah, I'd definitely tell myself
that the real estate game takeslonger than you anticipate.
I always thought you'd do yourfirst project and it'd go well and
you'd roll that into the next oneand it would just snowball very
quickly, but it's not the case.
(40:55):
I never accounted for real estate
cost going up.
so dramatically.
I never accounted for inflation.
All these factors make it a lot
harder to succeed in real estatein a short period of time.
So you just got to stay persistentand you got to work in it every
day.
You got to think 10, 15, 20 years
out and plan that accordingly.
(41:16):
But it takes time.
It's not going to happen in ayear.
Yeah.
So when you're a 20 -year -old,
you're like, damn, I should havebought a host when I was two.
Totally, totally.
What was I doing to waste all
those days?I agree with you totally.
Yeah, it does take time.
Well, and for any viewers out
there who are like chomping to getinto the market, but they have
(41:37):
paralysis or whatever thesituation is, they're waiting for
interest rates to come down orwhatever.
Time in the market is better thantiming the market.
Way better.
Way better.
I totally agree with that.
So just buy.
Just get something, right?I also feel like leapfrogging up.
I don't understand why peopledon't talk about this more.
Getting in with anything you can,like a condo, even like a one
-bedroom or studio condo that youcan afford and then living in it
for a couple of years, pay downthe mortgage and either refinance
it and buy another one or sell itand buy another one.
That's how you increase your realestate holdings is by leapfrogging
up until you get to a certainpoint and then options are open.
Yeah, I agree with you.
you.
Just getting in the market, Ithink, is the most important
thing.
What is your favorite charity or
how do you give back?For me, giving back is just
(41:58):
sharing my knowledge.
Nice.
On the pod.
Yeah.
So I went to SAIT for myarchitectural technologies.
I've been back multiple timessince.
I speak to future graduates aboutwhat can you do with this career.
It's such a broad schooling,architectural technologies.
Where can you take that and whatkind of career can you make out of
it?And even just going for a coffee
with somebody who wants to learnmore, that's how I give back.
I love it.
love it.
Nice.
(42:18):
That's awesome.
How can our listener or Matt and Ihelp you?
can our listener or Matt and Ihelp you?
I'm currently raising capital forone of those six plexes.
So if you want to learn more aboutthat project or invest yourself,
feel free to reach out.
You can find me at Facebook with
my CM Designs or Noble TerraDevelopments, either or.
Those are ways you can find me.
(42:39):
Yeah, that is such a cool project
out there.
Like good location to it.
It's a wild lot that like I didnot know existed.
So this is Xbox and fellas.
Yeah.
Good for you for finding that.
Cool.
Well, thanks for having me guys.
Yeah, it's been awesome.
Thanks a lot for coming on andsharing your knowledge.
Likewise.
Yeah.
Okay.
Have a good one.
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