Church Planting & Revitalisation in Secular Europe: Oliver Ahlfeld on Relational Mission, Church Planting, and Hope for Germany

What does it look like to plant and renew churches in one of the most atheistic regions of the world? And how can relational mission bring new life to the church in Europe?

In this episode, Jason Watson sits down with Oliver Ahlfeld, head of Church Planting and Revitalization for the Gnadauer Verband, Germany’s largest evangelical movement. Together, they explore how the gospel is taking root in secular spaces, what’s working in church planting across Europe, and how a relational lifestyle of faith is essential for revitalizing the church today.

Oliver shares personal stories of transformation, practical lessons from revitalized congregations, and a hopeful vision for awakening in Germany and beyond.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• Relational mission is the key challenge and opportunity — discipleship begins with open homes and open hearts.

• Church planting in secular spaces requires contextual creativity, from coffeehouse churches to “messy church” family gatherings.

• Revitalization starts small — even “five old ladies praying” can spark renewal.

• Collaboration across traditions matters — Pentecostals, pietists, and free churches are learning from one another through the M4 network.

• Simplify discipleship — cut fruitless programs and focus on relationships that bear gospel fruit.

• Hope for Europe — though traditional structures are declining, God is still at work awakening His church in Germany.

🎧 Related Episodes:

• Revival & Renewal: Seeking Awakening Among Europe’s Younger Generations with Sarah Breuel - https://lausanne.org/podcast/revival-renewal-seeking-awakening-among-europes-younger-generations-with-sarah-breuel Explore how God is stirring revival among the next generation in Europe and what it means to pursue prayerful renewal in a post-Christian context.

• **Pioneer Church Planting: Establishing Churches on the Frontlines (and Why Discipleship is the Ultimate Goal) with Ron Anderson -** https://lausanne.org/podcast/pioneer-church-planting-establishing-churches-on-the-frontlines-and-why-discipleship-is-the-ultimate-goal-with-ron-anderson Learn from pioneering church planters in Spain about long-term mission, discipleship, and leadership in secular societies.

• **Planting Churches, Transforming Cities with Guna Raman -** https://lausanne.org/podcast/planting-churches-transforming-cities-with-guna-raman Discover how church-planting movements in Asia’s major cities are transforming culture and equipping leaders for gospel impact in secular and urban environments.

📚 Links & Resources:

• Gnadauer Verband (Gnadauer Movement): https://www.gnadauer.de

• M4 Europe Church Planting Network: https://m4europe.com

• Joel Comiskey Group Resources on Cell Churches: https://joelcomiskeygroup.com

• Lausanne Movement Podcast: https://lausanne.org/podcast

Guest Bio:

Oliver Ahlfeld (born 1968) currently serves as Head of the Division for Church-Planting and Revitalisation at the Evangelischer Gnadauer Gemeinschaftsverband e.V. (Gnadauer Verband) where he coaches teams in urban and rural Germany in launching new faith communities and renewing existing congregations. His vocational journey—from plasterer, driver and welder, to youth-worker, teacher of religion and social-pedagogue—has given him a robust, cross-vocational insight into church-planting praxis. Since February 2020 he has been steering the movement of church-plants and revitalisation efforts in Saxony-Anhalt and beyond, helping leaders move from vision to actionable mission and vibrant community.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
.9999999998There's no Christians. 3 00:00:06,219.9999999998 --> 00:00:07,29.9999999998 It is crazy. 4 00:00:07,186.5457872086 --> 00:00:17,650.183054155 the relational lifestyle in my opinion, is the most unique challenge we have since the beginning of the gospel story, maybe even in the Old Testament. 5 00:00:17,870.800017245 --> 00:00:19,782.420985988 open your heart to Jesus. 6 00:00:19,842.420985988 --> 00:00:20,412.420985988 Yes. 7 00:00:20,442.420985988 --> 00:00:21,582.420985988 Do so please. 8 00:00:21,912.420985988 --> 00:00:26,562.420985988 But if you open your heart to Jesus, this means you open your living room for other people. 9 00:00:26,869.229846482 --> 00:00:29,509.229846482 Revitalize your church when there are still some people there. 10 00:00:30,16.743988233 --> 00:00:47,583.715193407 Try to make a decision to love people you'd never in your life wanna love it is always the relations A very warm welcome to the Lausanne Movement Podcast for those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 11 00:00:48,123.715193407 --> 00:00:59,78.715193407 I'm your host, Jason Watson, and today in this episode, we are exploring the challenges and opportunities of church planting and revitalization in Europe's secular context. 12 00:00:59,903.715193407 --> 00:01:00,743.715193407 To help us. 13 00:01:00,923.715193407 --> 00:01:17,213.715193407 I'm joined by Oliver Ahlfeld the head of division for church planting and revitalizationat the Gnadauer Verband the largest movement within Germany, representing more than 250,000 people, thousands of churches and 90 associations nationwide. 14 00:01:17,753.715193407 --> 00:01:26,363.715193407 So if you're interested in learning insights and stories about church planting, evangelism and discipleship in secular spaces. 15 00:01:26,883.715193407 --> 00:01:38,245.43977809 I wanna invite you to go ahead, grab your headphones, and let's dive into today's episode with Oliver Ahlfeld Oliver, welcome to the podcast. 16 00:01:38,245.43977809 --> 00:01:39,565.43977809 It's great to have you with us today. 17 00:01:39,717.04719336 --> 00:01:40,797.04719336 Nice to be here. 18 00:01:40,947.04719336 --> 00:01:41,967.04719336 Thanks for having me. 19 00:01:42,191.3701689 --> 00:01:43,251.94225399 Hello to everyone. 20 00:01:43,641.94225399 --> 00:01:44,541.94225399 So good to be here. 21 00:01:44,735.93046245 --> 00:01:51,785.93046245 So I'm really excited for this conversation because we are gonna be talking about church planting, which is something that I'm passionate about. 22 00:01:51,785.93046245 --> 00:02:00,275.93046245 We're gonna be talking about that within the context of secular environments that you are working within, as well as discipleship within the secular spaces. 23 00:02:00,615.93046245 --> 00:02:05,505.93046245 But before we dive into that and we go too quickly, and I would love to hear a bit about your story. 24 00:02:05,925.93046245 --> 00:02:13,260.93046245 So could you share a bit about yourself and how you found yourself? Called into church planting and discipleship efforts within these spaces. 25 00:02:13,785.93046245 --> 00:02:21,765.93046245 I wasn't born into a Christian family, so this was, setting the pace for the first years, wherever you're born into. 26 00:02:22,695.93046245 --> 00:02:25,185.93046245 But my brother became a Christian at a very young age. 27 00:02:25,185.93046245 --> 00:02:25,965.93046245 I guess he was. 28 00:02:26,355.93046245 --> 00:02:27,285.93046245 12 or something. 29 00:02:27,315.93046245 --> 00:02:29,145.93046245 And he was always talking about Jesus. 30 00:02:29,145.93046245 --> 00:02:32,235.93046245 And this was it was so strange for me. 31 00:02:33,45.93046245 --> 00:02:39,105.93046245 It was I always thought, man, he's cra this guy is crazy. 32 00:02:39,735.93046245 --> 00:02:43,365.93046245 I, like, my brother, but he was, sometimes he was talking about his faith. 33 00:02:43,365.93046245 --> 00:02:44,25.93046245 Not all of the time. 34 00:02:44,505.93046245 --> 00:02:45,495.93046245 He, learned it in a good way. 35 00:02:46,95.93046245 --> 00:02:48,765.93046245 So this influenced my, way. 36 00:02:49,395.93046245 --> 00:03:07,77.19905796 Not when I was becoming of age and all those years, but I had a night of fire, like one of the first pietists in France and philosopher bla Pascal was calling his night of becoming a Christian, not the night of fire. 37 00:03:07,257.19905796 --> 00:03:08,7.19905796 I was reading. 38 00:03:08,297.19905796 --> 00:03:12,670.27530517 The things he was, describing when he met Jesus for the first time. 39 00:03:12,670.27530517 --> 00:03:16,270.27530517 And I thought, oh, he, man, he experienced the very same like I did. 40 00:03:17,590.27530517 --> 00:03:18,490.27530517 really great. 41 00:03:18,490.27530517 --> 00:03:20,830.27530517 So find that somewhere in the internet. 42 00:03:20,830.27530517 --> 00:03:25,0.27530517 And then, my story, how I became a Christ, in a nutshell. 43 00:03:25,640.78886455 --> 00:03:29,30.78886455 I was a rock musician, so I had hair down to my belly. 44 00:03:29,597.55429491 --> 00:03:31,97.55429491 it was very. 45 00:03:32,442.55429491 --> 00:03:35,232.55429491 rebellious against, almost everything. 46 00:03:36,522.55429491 --> 00:03:39,808.05821624 And then, this night of fire changed everything. 47 00:03:39,808.05821624 --> 00:03:55,881.482072 It didn't change the dynamics, the, kind of energy i, still have in me, but it changed the direction of that energy into, talking about what I experienced and how important faith it, and that it really saves, like it saved me. 48 00:03:56,574.23134266 --> 00:03:57,714.23134266 Jesus saves. 49 00:03:57,714.23134266 --> 00:04:02,784.23134266 yeah, that, that's a long story short because you sure know that there's many things that happened. 50 00:04:02,784.23134266 --> 00:04:13,935.28121234 And then, I started, studying, theology and religious, paid a GoGy and so I could become a, teacher in, school. 51 00:04:14,295.28121234 --> 00:04:19,635.28121234 Started that in Mecklenburg Pomerania, which is a northern east area of Germany. 52 00:04:20,595.28121234 --> 00:04:22,335.28121234 No Christians at all. 53 00:04:23,415.28121234 --> 00:04:26,235.28121234 Very, unholy region. 54 00:04:26,695.28121234 --> 00:04:28,705.28121234 Famous in Germany, eastern Germany. 55 00:04:29,89.8041198 --> 00:04:32,238.3521345 so after the communist AR area. 56 00:04:32,628.3521345 --> 00:04:34,668.3521345 very un-Christian. 57 00:04:34,698.3521345 --> 00:04:35,238.3521345 Nice. 58 00:04:35,328.3521345 --> 00:04:37,998.3521345 And we lived there as missionaries for 15 years. 59 00:04:37,998.3521345 --> 00:04:40,433.3521345 My, my wife and me, my two sons. 60 00:04:41,868.3521345 --> 00:04:46,158.3521345 We learned a lot of the, a lot of, missionary like development there. 61 00:04:46,668.3521345 --> 00:05:01,908.3521345 And then one day after 12, 13 years, this umbrella organization where we belong to the Gada band, the Gada movement, it's an, it's a big association biggest, movement within the state church. 62 00:05:02,298.3521345 --> 00:05:04,698.3521345 Without being directed by the state church. 63 00:05:04,698.3521345 --> 00:05:06,528.3521345 This is something special. 64 00:05:06,948.3521345 --> 00:05:12,865.01880116 But, my one association and Mecklenberg Pomerania belonged to that umbrella organization. 65 00:05:13,75.01880116 --> 00:05:15,25.01880116 And so I heard about this application. 66 00:05:15,25.01880116 --> 00:05:21,125.01880116 They're searching for a head of division for church planting and church renewal revitalization. 67 00:05:21,605.01880116 --> 00:05:23,375.01880116 And I said, no, that's not me. 68 00:05:23,375.01880116 --> 00:05:25,145.01880116 I'm a pastor in the woods. 69 00:05:25,505.01880116 --> 00:05:28,175.01880116 in Mecklenburg there's nothing but cows and grass. 70 00:05:29,19.96076275 --> 00:05:31,269.96076275 but my wife, she encouraged me. 71 00:05:31,269.96076275 --> 00:05:39,639.96076275 My sons, they were a little, older then they knew about the subject and some mentors and people encouraged me a lot. 72 00:05:39,639.96076275 --> 00:05:42,819.96076275 And so I applied and here we are. 73 00:05:42,939.96076275 --> 00:05:49,926.62742942 I'm head of division for a movement with more than 250,000 people thousands of, churches. 74 00:05:49,926.62742942 --> 00:05:57,6.62742942 And, I'm in charge for the, I'm, I'm taking care of the, associations. 75 00:05:57,6.62742942 --> 00:06:01,651.3757588 We have 90 single associations and doing that nationwide. 76 00:06:02,131.3757588 --> 00:06:02,701.3757588 Sure. 77 00:06:02,701.3757588 --> 00:06:18,736.3757588 With networks and coaching other people who coach churches, because you can't do this all by yourself and with networks for church planting too, which we have is, M four, the M four networks that works Europe wide. 78 00:06:19,246.3757588 --> 00:06:20,866.3757588 Yeah, that's, how I got into it. 79 00:06:21,676.3757588 --> 00:06:28,201.34929413 Very, shortened because it's a long story, but we don't wanna spend the whole time talking about that. 80 00:06:29,126.34929413 --> 00:06:29,786.34929413 Fantastic. 81 00:06:29,816.34929413 --> 00:06:45,476.34929413 W would you mind just sharing a little bit more a, about your movement? What are some goals? Are we talking particularly about church planting? What are some of the high, level goals that you as a movement have in terms of church planting? I think it'll really set the stage for the conversation as we dive deeper. 82 00:06:45,785.47310495 --> 00:07:15,186.83429756 We had a, if I say we, it means this is 90 single associations all over Germany with, different traditions, so they, we all come from the istic roots, which means there's like guys like Sidorf or Spinner, they set a, benchmark, in the late, well after the Lutheran Orthodox and times with, we need to bring this righteousness into life. 83 00:07:15,246.83429756 --> 00:07:32,471.76604101 And it's a movement that, that really wants to make people diving into the scripture and, Checking out how can this work in my life? And be practical, not just sitting there, in a church, and listening, going home, nothing changes. 84 00:07:32,471.76604101 --> 00:07:38,141.76604101 Beating your wife and betraying people on the marketplace and so on, but really bring it into life. 85 00:07:38,501.76604101 --> 00:07:40,908.47581571 it's, a holy mess if I can use that word. 86 00:07:41,268.47581571 --> 00:07:45,188.47581571 It's a movement for people becoming serious in their faith. 87 00:07:46,338.47581571 --> 00:07:48,188.47581571 And, and I love that. 88 00:07:48,578.47581571 --> 00:08:01,848.47581571 And A lot of our goals in church planting are about bringing this DNA, not just back, but remembering our roots and we say, man, what did we lose the last. 89 00:08:02,603.47581571 --> 00:08:29,110.4391811 30, 40, 50 years since World War ii because we have become, we became so traditional and so sometimes old fashioned, if you ask people, the, this movement in some areas with many Christians, then you can ask them, yeah, this is the five old ladies meeting for a Bible lesson, right? I said, In some parts, yes, but it's not the only thing that characterizes our movement. 90 00:08:29,470.4391811 --> 00:08:50,518.6891811 So we try with my with the work I'm doing with, this division, we're trying to start new, but we revitalizing things that have been quite, changing parts of society, even, changing hearts, changing areas, changing relations and so on. 91 00:08:50,518.6891811 --> 00:08:52,78.6891811 Relationships between people. 92 00:08:53,318.6891811 --> 00:08:59,258.6891811 there was a big conference in 2013 and then there was something spiritual happening with the whole people. 93 00:08:59,258.6891811 --> 00:09:02,828.6891811 There were 3000 of our church leaders and pastors. 94 00:09:03,818.6891811 --> 00:09:06,0.53864895 And there this division of. 95 00:09:06,720.53864895 --> 00:09:20,725.17983088 Revitalization and church planting started, simply said, planting as many churches as possible and making as many churches as possible being vital again. 96 00:09:21,201.90534712 --> 00:09:25,512.11624058 Yeah, and I think that's such a, trans regional kind of challenge. 97 00:09:25,812.11624058 --> 00:09:32,152.11624058 just in my own context our church has planted a campus in a church that. 98 00:09:32,527.11624058 --> 00:09:37,57.11624058 That's already existing, but has the five old ladies that you're referring to. 99 00:09:37,447.11624058 --> 00:09:48,157.11624058 And what they really needed was a revitalization, but instead they've had to bring in other churches to enable the usage of their buildings and the funding of their buildings. 100 00:09:48,517.11624058 --> 00:09:58,952.77082096 And and I know that's not just true for my context and your context, but for so many people across the world, would love to hear more about Germany just for a moment. 101 00:09:59,282.77082096 --> 00:10:10,542.77082096 Can you give us some context? I mentioned to you off air that we have people from all over the world listening in, and so not everyone will know what Germany is like in terms of religion. 102 00:10:10,872.77082096 --> 00:10:13,452.77082096 I know in South Africa there's this. 103 00:10:13,882.77082096 --> 00:10:17,453.68356727 Preconception, and it's a really old one that Europe is Christian. 104 00:10:17,933.68356728 --> 00:10:24,913.68356728 And when some people would think of Germany, they might think of all the, if they theologically trained, they might think of all the theologians, et cetera. 105 00:10:25,333.68356728 --> 00:10:28,348.68356728 But tell us about the spiritual climate within your country today. 106 00:10:29,150.14310243 --> 00:10:30,980.14310243 this is happening all over the world. 107 00:10:32,0.14310243 --> 00:10:41,150.14310243 Five old ladies, or three old men, or two young people, whatever, small groups. 108 00:10:41,600.14310243 --> 00:10:43,10.14310243 very few people. 109 00:10:43,685.14310243 --> 00:10:49,295.14310243 If they pray, never underestimate five old ladies praying. 110 00:10:50,405.14310243 --> 00:10:59,765.14310243 If you do you are on a very wrong path because in the Bible there's just one old guy, one old lady, one young lady, one guy in the desert. 111 00:11:02,555.14310243 --> 00:11:11,255.14310243 so I say this, I try to say this with a lot of respect and this is all over the world, and this is, it's. 112 00:11:11,930.14310243 --> 00:11:13,990.14310243 Like a, basic thing. 113 00:11:13,990.14310243 --> 00:11:19,480.14310243 In Germany, you find many things that once were big, but now they are small. 114 00:11:19,510.14310243 --> 00:11:25,810.14310243 There was a, rapid decline of what we call the state church in Germany. 115 00:11:25,810.14310243 --> 00:11:28,735.14310243 We have this very unique, model of church. 116 00:11:28,735.14310243 --> 00:11:39,325.14310243 There was some, I'm not gonna explain the whole thing, but there's a state church, which means the tax system is related to the state church if you belong to the state church. 117 00:11:39,535.14310243 --> 00:11:51,400.13196497 But there are free churches too, who got out of the, in history, got out of this state church, but we're talking with a German state church just on the papers. 118 00:11:51,610.13196497 --> 00:11:57,610.13196497 Still about 20 million Catholics almost, and 20 million Protestants almost. 119 00:11:57,610.13196497 --> 00:12:02,500.13196497 So this is half of the population of Germany, 40 million people. 120 00:12:03,490.13196497 --> 00:12:04,180.13196497 But. 121 00:12:06,25.13196497 --> 00:12:18,999.87485639 Where are they? sure, you'll find some of them and you hear some of them, but all in all, for being half of the population, it's very quiet in the state church woods. 122 00:12:19,923.20818973 --> 00:12:24,843.20818973 So this is really declining in a rapid way. 123 00:12:25,383.20818973 --> 00:12:29,988.20818973 it's fast and it's no secret, The state church knows. 124 00:12:29,988.20818973 --> 00:12:37,638.20818973 We know, and my movement, the gada movement is between this state where we're, in the state church, but not under the state church. 125 00:12:37,638.20818973 --> 00:12:43,8.20818973 We don't have to obey and we, don't get much money either, which is quite sad. 126 00:12:43,608.20818973 --> 00:12:52,930.86581591 And and there's this free church movement with Baptists and this kind and free church, this and free church that it's dozens of free churches movements. 127 00:12:53,200.86581591 --> 00:12:55,60.86581591 I sometimes, I call it the big tree. 128 00:12:56,125.86581591 --> 00:13:08,685.86581591 Many things come from Catholic or Lutheran roots like and being become, and then it's branches like crazy and you can't even overview it as a German. 129 00:13:09,15.86581591 --> 00:13:16,365.86581591 Now the spiritual climate is difficult to assess, I'd say, because there is things going on. 130 00:13:16,485.86581591 --> 00:13:17,145.86581591 There is. 131 00:13:17,805.86581591 --> 00:13:18,825.86581591 There are things happening. 132 00:13:19,525.86581591 --> 00:13:23,575.86581591 There is a church planting with the Pentecostal movement. 133 00:13:24,295.86581591 --> 00:13:25,795.86581591 right now I was reading an article. 134 00:13:25,885.86581591 --> 00:13:26,215.86581591 Great. 135 00:13:26,972.51581118 --> 00:13:34,262.51581118 within the state church, you find movements even for themselves that are planting church or they, they try new models. 136 00:13:34,836.47506319 --> 00:13:38,766.47506319 to finish this, thought or to, yeah. 137 00:13:38,766.47506319 --> 00:13:41,436.47506319 To bring this question to a point. 138 00:13:41,706.47506319 --> 00:13:49,36.47506319 There's not this, what we hear about England these days like many young people join the church. 139 00:13:50,11.47506319 --> 00:13:56,461.47506319 In some places, suddenly in France, there's no climate change. 140 00:13:56,671.47506319 --> 00:14:00,511.47506319 I'm sorry for using that word here in Germany with the church. 141 00:14:00,541.47506319 --> 00:14:16,693.15736351 I'm just talking about the church that we hear about like in England or France, which starts slowly, I guess nothing like that right now, but maybe there's a, rapid decline. 142 00:14:17,368.15736351 --> 00:14:25,288.15736351 Breathtaking in some years time, and we know what time the state church will no longer exist in that way. 143 00:14:25,858.15736351 --> 00:14:41,128.15736351 And that has a lot of impact on the free churches because some of the, many of the free churches, my good friends, I love them, we're almost like working like a free church is when you start a service in some place for planting a new church. 144 00:14:41,983.15736351 --> 00:14:48,673.15736351 Then all the people in the state church that are maybe baptized as kids, which is the Lutheran church, is common. 145 00:14:49,63.15736351 --> 00:14:54,383.15736351 Or like having confirmation aged 14 and then didn't have anything to do with church. 146 00:14:54,593.15736351 --> 00:14:57,353.15736351 They are going to the free church because it's more attractive. 147 00:14:57,713.15736351 --> 00:15:10,163.15736351 Or if the, if people are bored or the struggle with a state church, they go under the free church, But this will end in some years time because there's no more people left. 148 00:15:10,931.29927999 --> 00:15:12,11.29927999 This is very important. 149 00:15:12,11.29927999 --> 00:15:32,577.40341937 And professor in the free church movement in Geen, Philip Barolo, me, He said, this is gonna be very difficult because then we need to learn what mission is really about, and not just shifting people, transferring them from one church to the other, but really, this, heathen mission, mission. 150 00:15:33,387.40341937 --> 00:15:33,837.40341937 A mission. 151 00:15:33,837.40341937 --> 00:15:36,477.40341937 Mission, a missionary mission, if you will, call it like that. 152 00:15:37,347.40341937 --> 00:15:38,187.40341937 And that's different thing. 153 00:15:38,580.00556084 --> 00:15:40,560.00556084 Yeah, I, think that's really helpful. 154 00:15:40,590.00556084 --> 00:15:47,80.00556084 Just even having the picture of the free church and the state church those dynamics are, really unique. 155 00:15:47,335.62405959 --> 00:15:49,795.62405959 Definitely not playing out in my own context. 156 00:15:50,245.62405959 --> 00:15:57,10.62405959 So if, you had to be candid, what are some of the biggest challenges? Church leaders in Germany are facing right now. 157 00:15:57,10.62405959 --> 00:16:09,831.28381062 Is it between this free church state church, or is it that mission element of saying, actually we need to go and begin to reach people for Christ? So for sure there are some tangents sometimes theological tangents or. 158 00:16:10,701.28381062 --> 00:16:11,511.28381062 Personal. 159 00:16:11,811.28381062 --> 00:16:24,201.28381062 Whenever there's a church like from our movement and there's a state church beside, we don't have, we don't build churches with towers, with the big towers, the nice ones. 160 00:16:24,591.28381062 --> 00:16:27,501.28381062 This is almost every time you find a church in Germany. 161 00:16:27,501.28381062 --> 00:16:29,766.28381062 This is a state church, Catholic or Evangel Angelica. 162 00:16:29,766.28381062 --> 00:16:35,821.28381062 And so if you if you get along with the pastor of the state church there, there's never a problem. 163 00:16:36,676.28381062 --> 00:16:45,99.6906129 So It works out fine, but the possible tangents in theology, which is, yeah, it's quite obvious. 164 00:16:45,736.3572796 --> 00:16:50,746.3572796 I don't think it's the biggest challenge we have to really be, candid. 165 00:16:52,91.3572796 --> 00:16:55,6.3572796 I'd say that the biggest challenge is. 166 00:16:56,273.0239463 --> 00:16:59,183.0239463 What, since the, let's make it a question. 167 00:16:59,183.0239463 --> 00:17:05,483.0239463 What, since the last 10 or 20 years and maybe since the gospel started, I don't know. 168 00:17:06,396.3572796 --> 00:17:16,416.3572796 What is the one thing that goes through like a, like a line, like a red line? You find everything and it is always the relations thing, the relational thing. 169 00:17:16,716.3572796 --> 00:17:23,946.3572796 the this relationship thing, Jesus is making relations with people and bringing them in relation with God. 170 00:17:23,946.3572796 --> 00:17:27,966.3572796 And if Jesus, you know the Father, this is a relation thing. 171 00:17:28,326.3572796 --> 00:17:34,836.3572796 And if we get to know people and the people will know who Christ is by seeing our love to each other, this is a relation thing and so on. 172 00:17:35,736.3572796 --> 00:17:40,986.3572796 And Teaching people this all in all relational mission. 173 00:17:40,986.3572796 --> 00:17:54,756.3572796 I guess this is the most important and the most challenging thing because it's so easy and there's no excuses because you can learn this very, Easily and quickly, but we're not doing it. 174 00:17:55,266.3572796 --> 00:18:10,726.3572796 We lack of time and lack of, I don't know, energy and I can't do this, and how, can I talk to people? And so we make it a big deal and, to be honest, it's so simple. 175 00:18:11,596.3572796 --> 00:18:14,326.3572796 it's simple, but it, I know it's not easy to talk to people. 176 00:18:14,716.3572796 --> 00:18:49,560.8523163 I guess this is the biggest challenge we have to make people living with other people, sharing their faith in a good way, in a helpful way, in an easy way, and not just sharing and talking, but listening and so on so let's dive into to church planting and revitalization within your context, because Germany, as you mentioned, 40 million saying that they are part of the church, but asking the question where are they, right? are they really active within these spaces? Now you've been a part of this planting and revitalization effort across Germany. 177 00:18:49,950.8523163 --> 00:18:52,530.8523163 Could you share one story that could. 178 00:18:52,925.8523163 --> 00:19:03,485.8523163 We have an encouragement because we have other church planters and revitalizes that will be listening to this and, give us a sense of how these efforts are playing out within your context. 179 00:19:03,485.8523163 --> 00:19:12,762.518983 Like what lessons are you learning within this church planting space? Now it's really like I'm not working for the state church and all those millions of people. 180 00:19:12,912.518983 --> 00:19:22,577.6341405 Even though coming from this history that the fathers of our movement, the Gawa Faban were church people, most of them. 181 00:19:23,107.6341405 --> 00:19:30,787.6341405 But in today's time we are more looking alike and working like a free church. 182 00:19:31,27.6341405 --> 00:19:53,724.1894097 I don't know if people from other countries understand, but this is quite an issue in Jersey it's, its subject, I can tell real things from my movement, and many of them are with about bigger, the bigger churches, whenever they start, it's really great because they still have, yeah, they have resources and, you should. 183 00:19:54,699.1894097 --> 00:19:57,339.1894097 Revitalize your church when there are still some people there. 184 00:19:58,89.1894097 --> 00:19:59,709.1894097 When it comes to the five old ladies. 185 00:19:59,709.1894097 --> 00:20:02,469.1894097 Sometimes prayer is the only thing that's left. 186 00:20:04,19.1894097 --> 00:20:11,543.973256 I had a very small one, in a very rural, countryside, two and a half hours from here. 187 00:20:11,693.973256 --> 00:20:18,353.973256 I live in Eastern Germany and the eastern part is very atheistic, very, atheistic. 188 00:20:18,353.973256 --> 00:20:19,763.973256 There's no Christians. 189 00:20:19,763.973256 --> 00:20:20,573.973256 It is crazy. 190 00:20:22,345.6399227 --> 00:20:29,995.6399227 They, had a small service and there was a lady not, that old, but I guess in the, in her forties. 191 00:20:30,655.6399227 --> 00:20:45,729.4881091 And she was like, my parents, draw me into this church when I was in the, kindergarten, when I was in this little, what's it called, where you put your babies in the wagon, the, I like a Sunday school for the kids. 192 00:20:45,974.4881091 --> 00:20:47,239.4881091 N Yeah. 193 00:20:47,269.4881091 --> 00:20:48,229.4881091 Two, that's later. 194 00:20:48,529.4881091 --> 00:20:52,239.4881091 But even when she was a baby, she was pushed into Oh, a pram. 195 00:20:53,89.4881091 --> 00:20:53,359.4881091 yeah. 196 00:20:54,109.4881091 --> 00:20:56,239.4881091 In this little, wagon into the church. 197 00:20:56,479.4881091 --> 00:21:02,269.4881091 So she grew up with it, and now they had a really a bad decline. 198 00:21:02,329.4881091 --> 00:21:12,233.1043804 Like most of the churches in the countryside, it's not easy, It's easy in all places, but they, really, man, they had no, no pastor or nothing, all volunteers. 199 00:21:13,223.1043804 --> 00:21:26,824.7731899 And so she said, but because of this history of mine, since I was a baby and growing up with things like Sunday school and stuff like that, in this church, I still believe that God wants to do something with this church as long as I'm here. 200 00:21:27,274.7731899 --> 00:21:29,134.7731899 And so we found some ideas. 201 00:21:29,134.7731899 --> 00:21:30,209.7731899 We were talking, it's always. 202 00:21:31,69.7731899 --> 00:21:33,589.7731899 Talk and analyzing and what's there. 203 00:21:34,259.7731899 --> 00:21:38,849.7731899 the systemic approach always helps because you look for the resources. 204 00:21:38,849.7731899 --> 00:21:41,939.7731899 You not to say This is bad and that's bad, everything's bad, let's go. 205 00:21:42,299.7731899 --> 00:21:54,749.7731899 But you say, where are the things that worked out in this? And she said, what works best was always doing a service that's, not at attractional, but whereas. 206 00:21:55,139.7731899 --> 00:22:11,469.7731899 You find encouragement and happiness and, people that look positively on life, and that's what Christians can do, right? And so they started to think about their service and first they were. 207 00:22:12,189.7731899 --> 00:22:15,9.7731899 The 12 people, they have always been for many years. 208 00:22:15,9.7731899 --> 00:22:17,979.7731899 Then there were two young families coming. 209 00:22:17,979.7731899 --> 00:22:27,489.7731899 There were some old people coming the more, and now I guess they are like 30 or 40 people, which doesn't seem a lot, this is growth of more than a hundred percent. 210 00:22:27,789.7731899 --> 00:22:27,939.7731899 Mm-hmm. 211 00:22:29,11.9643619 --> 00:22:31,171.9643619 we have stories like that more often. 212 00:22:32,881.9643619 --> 00:22:34,831.9643619 it's, cool if there's one person or. 213 00:22:34,831.9643619 --> 00:22:35,761.9643619 two or three. 214 00:22:36,721.9643619 --> 00:22:40,426.9643619 We have the word of Jesus, I'm with you. 215 00:22:40,516.9643619 --> 00:22:42,256.9643619 If you're two or three people, that's enough. 216 00:22:42,326.9643619 --> 00:22:42,616.9643619 Yeah. 217 00:22:43,41.2776066 --> 00:22:47,476.2776066 And that's a kind of a story that happens sometime, not all of the time. 218 00:22:47,928.9685852 --> 00:22:53,658.9685852 Yeah, Oliver, and for, those who, who are listening in and they can't, they couldn't see your face as you were telling that story. 219 00:22:53,658.9685852 --> 00:22:58,698.9685852 You just lit up as you were sharing the story of, this church and this lady. 220 00:22:58,698.9685852 --> 00:23:05,388.9685852 And for me it, it was actually beautiful just to watch the passion that God has given you in your own hearts and. 221 00:23:05,763.9685852 --> 00:23:20,693.9685852 What I'm drawing out of that is, you mentioned this idea of them wanting to bring a positive atmosphere and, for me the fruit of the spirit is what came to mind of just, of bringing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness into. 222 00:23:20,778.9685852 --> 00:23:22,248.9685852 Into their community. 223 00:23:22,668.9685852 --> 00:23:28,248.9685852 And it was, that became their testimony that drew in that they were able to grow a hundred percent, as you said. 224 00:23:28,728.9685852 --> 00:23:38,378.9685852 I think it's really a beautiful encouragement for those who, are in spaces where 40 is a lot and is not a little bit compared to other spaces in the world. 225 00:23:38,978.9685852 --> 00:23:58,338.6549543 so what other lessons? Have you learned from church planting in these kind of very secular atheistic spaces within Europe? What's working, what, what is not working? As you've seen church planters begin and, end, Let me quickly refer to your last sentence because it was It was so funny for me to be at the Willow Creek conference. 226 00:23:58,368.6549543 --> 00:24:05,278.6549543 You, we got the summit in Germany too or every two years and Willow Creek Association is doing some good stuff here for leadership. 227 00:24:05,578.6549543 --> 00:24:12,38.6549543 And there was, Carl fatter, I guess a Vater who was talking about small churches in American, the states. 228 00:24:12,878.6549543 --> 00:24:22,628.6549543 He was saying on a German stage, he was saying, if your church is small and has only 120 people, then you, I can't encourage you. 229 00:24:23,18.6549543 --> 00:24:24,878.6549543 And we were all sitting there. 230 00:24:25,223.6549543 --> 00:24:30,833.6549543 Especially the Eastern Germany guys who have churches with 10 people or 20 people. 231 00:24:30,983.6549543 --> 00:24:31,763.6549543 This is a small church. 232 00:24:32,33.6549543 --> 00:24:35,993.6549543 If you have 120 people, this is a big church in Germany, very big. 233 00:24:36,743.6549543 --> 00:24:45,803.6549543 May, if you're in the state church, you have maybe two 1,200 who are standing in your register on the paper, but they are nowhere. 234 00:24:46,238.6549543 --> 00:24:49,268.6549543 They are not there, they're not joining the service or doing something in the church. 235 00:24:49,568.6549543 --> 00:24:55,58.6549543 Not all of them, but maybe, if you have a hundred of thousand 200, then it's a lot. 236 00:24:55,418.6549543 --> 00:25:03,338.6549543 So a free church in Germany with a hundred people is a big church, is you need to contextualize before you talk. 237 00:25:03,698.6549543 --> 00:25:05,918.6549543 I, not want, I don't wanna blame him, he's a great guy. 238 00:25:05,918.6549543 --> 00:25:09,458.6549543 He was talking great stuff, but you really have to take care. 239 00:25:09,668.6549543 --> 00:25:22,718.6549543 If you talk about big church in Germany, what, what was working, what was really helpful in Germany? for church planting is the M four networks, which started in Norway with even Outland. 240 00:25:23,498.6549543 --> 00:25:24,278.6549543 Great guy. 241 00:25:24,398.6549543 --> 00:25:36,518.6549543 And they started very small, uniting the movements in Norway, which are not much because Norway is, if, when it comes to the population, it's small, But anyway, this is. 242 00:25:37,88.6549543 --> 00:25:38,738.6549543 Not making things easier. 243 00:25:39,548.6549543 --> 00:25:43,448.6549543 And they gathered and they started this with a movement called Dawn. 244 00:25:43,718.6549543 --> 00:25:46,188.6549543 And then, the M four coaching. 245 00:25:46,398.6549543 --> 00:25:52,828.6549543 It's a coaching tool, a coaching, a team process for starting a church. 246 00:25:52,888.6549543 --> 00:25:54,268.6549543 And it helps so much. 247 00:25:54,888.6549543 --> 00:26:00,348.6549543 We're the, most different movements, bringing M four to life. 248 00:26:00,468.6549543 --> 00:26:03,468.6549543 M four means like masser movement, mission, and so on four M. 249 00:26:04,788.6549543 --> 00:26:07,398.6549543 And this is absolutely crazy. 250 00:26:07,668.6549543 --> 00:26:19,728.6549543 I, if you can just imagine, there's Pentecostal guys in Germany and 20 years ago in my movement, in the istic movement or in the Brethren movement in Germany, you were warned about the. 251 00:26:20,58.6549543 --> 00:26:22,68.6549543 Pentecostal guys, take care. 252 00:26:22,128.6549543 --> 00:26:30,928.6549543 Is this the spirit from above? Is this some earthly stuff? If they all faint in the blessings and stuff like that, take care and so on. 253 00:26:31,138.6549543 --> 00:26:32,8.6549543 you were warned. 254 00:26:32,428.6549543 --> 00:26:32,923.6549543 Take care of their. 255 00:26:33,883.6549543 --> 00:26:37,63.6549543 Some theological ideas they have now at today. 256 00:26:37,63.6549543 --> 00:26:45,583.6549543 In today's time, we do M four together with Pentecostal guys and they learn so much in the past 20 years, especially in the missionary areas. 257 00:26:45,973.6549543 --> 00:26:49,33.6549543 And they learn so much from us and we learn so much from them. 258 00:26:49,723.6549543 --> 00:26:51,463.6549543 And this is a very new approach. 259 00:26:51,463.6549543 --> 00:26:58,213.6549543 And in M four, this all comes to life and I just love it because we can teach our theologies in the churches. 260 00:26:58,633.6549543 --> 00:26:59,773.6549543 We don't need to blame the others. 261 00:26:59,983.6549543 --> 00:27:01,393.6549543 Jesus will tell us in heaven. 262 00:27:01,693.6549543 --> 00:27:04,363.6549543 Who's right, he will tell us that I was right. 263 00:27:04,889.7136183 --> 00:27:05,399.7136183 just joking. 264 00:27:06,456.2735866 --> 00:27:09,809.1720642 so right now it's about, coaching teams. 265 00:27:10,289.1720642 --> 00:27:11,219.1720642 We do this with M four. 266 00:27:11,219.1720642 --> 00:27:13,979.1720642 It works in the revitalization area. 267 00:27:13,979.1720642 --> 00:27:21,399.1720642 The, I was researching the last five years and especially the last half year on cell groups. 268 00:27:21,894.1720642 --> 00:27:25,854.1720642 The Joel Comiskey, Roberto Bottrell approach. 269 00:27:26,244.1720642 --> 00:27:27,174.1720642 Great guys. 270 00:27:27,864.1720642 --> 00:27:29,274.1720642 It starts in my movement. 271 00:27:29,334.1720642 --> 00:27:34,704.1720642 The cell group movement is really, we're digging into it and it, bears a lot of fruit. 272 00:27:34,704.1720642 --> 00:27:37,284.1720642 It changes the attitude of the Christians. 273 00:27:37,314.1720642 --> 00:27:38,394.1720642 It's discipling them. 274 00:27:38,934.1720642 --> 00:27:40,164.1720642 I guess we're gonna talk about this. 275 00:27:40,794.1720642 --> 00:27:40,854.1720642 Yeah. 276 00:27:41,814.1720642 --> 00:27:48,774.1720642 Then we talk about what is helpful is messy church, which started in the Anglican church with fresh eggs and messy churches. 277 00:27:48,774.1720642 --> 00:27:53,94.1720642 In German, it's called und like a colorful church. 278 00:27:53,124.1720642 --> 00:27:58,74.1720642 It's family church thing, and in some areas it almost explodes. 279 00:27:58,344.1720642 --> 00:27:59,244.1720642 It's so good. 280 00:27:59,244.1720642 --> 00:28:00,474.1720642 Really, it's real church. 281 00:28:00,474.1720642 --> 00:28:03,264.1720642 It's not just a program for kids. 282 00:28:04,374.1720642 --> 00:28:04,914.1720642 Good thing. 283 00:28:04,974.1720642 --> 00:28:19,14.1720642 And what's the third thing that works out fine in the last years is everything with coffee house, churches, third places, not work, not family, but a third place where you can. 284 00:28:19,704.1720642 --> 00:28:20,484.1720642 Enjoy life. 285 00:28:20,544.1720642 --> 00:28:21,684.1720642 Talk serious. 286 00:28:21,774.1720642 --> 00:28:25,344.1720642 Have a nice coffee, good community, good atmosphere. 287 00:28:25,794.1720642 --> 00:28:28,584.1720642 We're doing this in many places right now. 288 00:28:28,614.1720642 --> 00:28:31,164.1720642 And it grows and you can't stop it. 289 00:28:31,164.1720642 --> 00:28:42,174.1720642 And the whole coffee house movement, if you wanna call it like the, culture, this culture is really still growing, evolving. 290 00:28:42,654.1720642 --> 00:28:45,314.1720642 So all this connected with. 291 00:28:46,109.1720642 --> 00:28:59,45.8387309 The things we do and not just connecting them, but replacing some of them replacing some of the things we do because they didn't bear fruit for many years. 292 00:28:59,405.8387309 --> 00:29:00,725.8387309 I guess that's good. 293 00:29:01,250.8387309 --> 00:29:01,370.8387309 Yeah. 294 00:29:02,135.8387309 --> 00:29:03,335.8387309 Summarizing. 295 00:29:03,575.8387309 --> 00:29:09,590.8387309 I need to say maybe having attractional stuff that draws the, we are told to go. 296 00:29:10,590.8387309 --> 00:29:12,990.8387309 And Matthew go make disciples. 297 00:29:13,590.8387309 --> 00:29:26,790.8387309 But I, if we change things inside that, that attract people because we're listening to them, we, are contextualizing and is a kind of going, because we're changing a lot of things. 298 00:29:26,790.8387309 --> 00:29:31,900.8387309 So I don't care if it's a little more go or a little more calm. 299 00:29:33,250.8387309 --> 00:29:38,230.8387309 I care about if it bears fruit and if it bears fruit. 300 00:29:38,657.3448306 --> 00:29:42,707.3448306 not at any price, but a lot more than we have. 301 00:29:43,337.3448306 --> 00:29:43,817.3448306 It's good. 302 00:29:43,817.3448306 --> 00:29:54,407.3448306 So at attractional, without content, I, guess is bad, but a big content, big, uh, scripture things without any attraction. 303 00:29:54,797.3448306 --> 00:29:55,637.3448306 That's not Jesus. 304 00:29:55,637.3448306 --> 00:30:03,227.3448306 Like people came to Jesus and then they could make a decision whether they want to go the next steps, whether they wanna follow him for some steps or they don't. 305 00:30:03,407.3448306 --> 00:30:05,957.3448306 But if they don't even listen because they're not attracted. 306 00:30:06,622.3448306 --> 00:30:08,92.3448306 Then we can blame attraction. 307 00:30:08,422.3448306 --> 00:30:11,392.3448306 It's so bad and we just making big music and stuff. 308 00:30:11,422.3448306 --> 00:30:13,402.3448306 You, what if it attracts people? I don't care. 309 00:30:13,792.3448306 --> 00:30:15,442.3448306 I want them to hear about Jesus. 310 00:30:15,442.3448306 --> 00:30:17,62.3448306 So let's do what we can. 311 00:30:17,212.3448306 --> 00:30:18,532.3448306 So they hear about Jesus. 312 00:30:18,622.3448306 --> 00:30:24,10.6781639 And this is within messy church with coffee, house churches, cell subgroup. 313 00:30:24,355.6781639 --> 00:30:30,36.0738358 It's involved, in a smart and in a, fine nuance. 314 00:30:30,197.0015786 --> 00:30:30,467.0015786 Yeah. 315 00:30:30,707.0015786 --> 00:30:38,807.0015786 And it goes back to what you were saying about relationship, right? And how important relationship is in terms of connecting with people and doing church. 316 00:30:39,407.0015786 --> 00:30:49,727.0015786 so let's take this a little bit further, Oliver, because we, speaking about really trying to, bring revitalization and reach people within the secular environments that you find yourself. 317 00:30:49,727.0015786 --> 00:30:50,987.0015786 within, Germany. 318 00:30:51,527.0015786 --> 00:31:01,912.0594877 But planting churches and creating that attractional spaces is one step, but then forming resilient disciples is a completely another thing within these secular spaces. 319 00:31:02,872.0594877 --> 00:31:13,678.7261544 So, what are some of the unique challenges that a believers are facing and in the spaces that you're planning your churches in? as I said before, the relational lifestyle is. 320 00:31:14,113.7261544 --> 00:31:24,193.7261544 I, in my opinion, is the most unique challenge we have since the beginning of the gospel story, maybe even in the Old Testament. 321 00:31:25,753.7261544 --> 00:31:26,533.7261544 It's, all about that. 322 00:31:26,533.7261544 --> 00:31:40,523.7261544 And if you have a culture, we are talking about culture, right? If we have a culture in the church where we are family, and even, telling the whole world on our webpages and, social media, we are a family. 323 00:31:41,63.7261544 --> 00:31:50,543.7261544 Then I think, ah, man, I'm not working into a family's house just to share their TV evening by myself, because that might be strange. 324 00:31:50,963.7261544 --> 00:31:57,113.7261544 So it's a culture of not including people into the relational things we have. 325 00:31:57,623.7261544 --> 00:32:06,8.7261544 But if we, are family and we, are able to, not just invite this is, Know, we're inviting. 326 00:32:06,8.7261544 --> 00:32:18,299.1254408 We're inviting but if people don't come because of your invitation, then stop inviting, stop pleaing and, take them by the hand or join their life. 327 00:32:18,539.1254408 --> 00:32:21,932.9727341 That, must, that's a kind of a good, story or goal thing. 328 00:32:22,286.7574589 --> 00:32:37,691.7574589 so This is very unique and special as a challenge in discipling people because they, they quickly get exhausted with doing so many things in church that don't bear fruit and which are not really relational. 329 00:32:39,116.7574589 --> 00:32:43,946.7574589 And if they have to learn, then there's always those argumenting. 330 00:32:44,576.7574589 --> 00:32:47,756.7574589 When shall we do this? All the relational stuff. 331 00:32:48,146.7574589 --> 00:32:50,906.7574589 And I need to say, you don't need to do this too. 332 00:32:51,146.7574589 --> 00:32:53,126.7574589 you just need to do this and nothing else. 333 00:32:54,326.7574589 --> 00:32:56,6.7574589 So cut down your program. 334 00:32:56,6.7574589 --> 00:33:01,736.7574589 That's not, if your program bears fruit, but everything's okay, go on, go further. 335 00:33:02,336.7574589 --> 00:33:04,436.7574589 But if, not, then. 336 00:33:05,96.7574589 --> 00:33:06,206.7574589 You need to change. 337 00:33:06,236.7574589 --> 00:33:15,226.7574589 And discipling is a lot about relation between the disciples as we see with the people of Jesus. 338 00:33:15,226.7574589 --> 00:33:17,146.7574589 I guess that's the best role model we can have. 339 00:33:17,296.7574589 --> 00:33:29,176.7574589 It's all about us and it's sharing life and sharing life with other disciples and people who are not now disciples means opening, opening up. 340 00:33:29,896.7574589 --> 00:33:38,446.7574589 Yeah, it's sometimes I think it's easy if people say and I know it's not, but opening, open your heart to Jesus. 341 00:33:38,506.7574589 --> 00:33:39,76.7574589 Yes. 342 00:33:39,106.7574589 --> 00:33:40,246.7574589 Do so please. 343 00:33:40,576.7574589 --> 00:33:45,226.7574589 But if you open your heart to Jesus, this means you open your living room for other people. 344 00:33:46,66.7574589 --> 00:33:47,596.7574589 Oh, I didn't know that. 345 00:33:47,656.7574589 --> 00:33:47,956.7574589 Yeah. 346 00:33:47,956.7574589 --> 00:33:49,936.7574589 But that's what a relation is about. 347 00:33:50,536.7574589 --> 00:33:53,566.7574589 And open your heart for, other people and. 348 00:33:54,151.7574589 --> 00:34:00,841.7574589 Try to make a decision to love people you'd never in your life wanna love or wanna share time together with. 349 00:34:01,111.7574589 --> 00:34:08,671.7574589 So then sometimes people that you know, they are Christians, they are afraid, Yeah, but I can't do this with 20 people. 350 00:34:08,671.7574589 --> 00:34:14,881.7574589 And I say, who said, you have to do it with 20 people? How about starting with one? That might be a good idea. 351 00:34:16,321.7574589 --> 00:34:18,91.7574589 Pray for one people. 352 00:34:18,91.7574589 --> 00:34:20,821.7574589 Or people one people who's not a Christian. 353 00:34:22,36.7574589 --> 00:34:23,356.7574589 one at least please. 354 00:34:24,406.7574589 --> 00:34:27,136.7574589 So start praying for them and making relationship with them. 355 00:34:27,226.7574589 --> 00:34:30,76.7574589 That's not that difficult, but that's what it's about. 356 00:34:30,76.7574589 --> 00:34:35,626.7574589 And that's so much, that's so very helpful in becoming a disciple. 357 00:34:36,60.8389844 --> 00:34:44,430.8389844 I love the, challenge to, to not just be, bring invites, but to include people in your life. 358 00:34:44,530.8389844 --> 00:34:52,420.8389844 and even the comment you made about, Exhausting our people on programs that are not working. 359 00:34:52,790.8389844 --> 00:34:57,20.8389844 I think that applies across cultures that are across churches. 360 00:34:57,260.8389844 --> 00:34:57,800.8389844 we do it. 361 00:34:58,190.8389844 --> 00:35:02,885.8389844 We, have our programs we love and we exhaust our people on fruitless yes. 362 00:35:02,945.8389844 --> 00:35:02,955.8389844 Yes. 363 00:35:03,890.8389844 --> 00:35:08,900.8389844 And it's so difficult to change because it's a cultural change and it's difficult to change culture. 364 00:35:09,260.8389844 --> 00:35:16,190.8389844 And then the typical conversation is, I come to a to church, they had a bad decline since the last 30 years. 365 00:35:16,190.8389844 --> 00:35:17,270.8389844 They once were a hundred people. 366 00:35:17,270.8389844 --> 00:35:18,320.8389844 Now there are 20 people. 367 00:35:18,620.8389844 --> 00:35:23,420.8389844 And I say, what are you doing? They say, yeah, we're, having, we're still having this special. 368 00:35:23,870.8389844 --> 00:35:27,830.8389844 Family go special service and say that's, that sounds good. 369 00:35:27,830.8389844 --> 00:35:28,310.8389844 What is it? Yeah. 370 00:35:28,490.8389844 --> 00:35:30,260.8389844 We are doing this in the city hall. 371 00:35:30,380.8389844 --> 00:35:32,270.8389844 Not in your church? No, we're doing it in the city hall. 372 00:35:32,270.8389844 --> 00:35:34,490.8389844 Why do you? Yeah, because people are coming. 373 00:35:34,550.8389844 --> 00:35:39,890.8389844 They don't come to our church, but they come to the city hall and say, who's coming there? There's families with kids. 374 00:35:39,890.8389844 --> 00:35:40,550.8389844 To the family. 375 00:35:40,550.8389844 --> 00:35:41,180.8389844 Go specialists. 376 00:35:41,180.8389844 --> 00:35:41,450.8389844 Great. 377 00:35:41,450.8389844 --> 00:35:47,970.8389844 And say, are you doing this three times a year? Why don't you do it more often? we can't make it because we have to do the other program. 378 00:35:48,30.8389844 --> 00:35:51,330.8389844 I said, okay, and what's the goal of the family? Go special. 379 00:35:51,330.8389844 --> 00:35:56,670.8389844 Then I say, yeah, we, we got to know people there and then they join our usual program. 380 00:35:56,970.8389844 --> 00:35:58,980.8389844 I said, ah, that's man. 381 00:35:58,980.8389844 --> 00:36:00,630.8389844 You are so smart. 382 00:36:00,870.8389844 --> 00:36:04,750.8389844 And how how long have you been doing this? Yeah, we be well now. 383 00:36:05,170.8389844 --> 00:36:11,200.8389844 Hey, Charles, how long are we doing? They don't even know how long they do it, like 15 years. 384 00:36:11,260.8389844 --> 00:36:13,90.8389844 And I say, you're doing this for 15 years. 385 00:36:13,470.8389844 --> 00:36:14,70.8389844 Cool. 386 00:36:14,550.8389844 --> 00:36:21,930.8389844 And how many people have come from your family go special into a usual program in 15 years? Zero. 387 00:36:22,835.8389844 --> 00:36:23,55.8389844 Wow. 388 00:36:23,60.8389844 --> 00:36:23,550.8389844 Zero. 389 00:36:23,550.8389844 --> 00:36:26,400.8389844 Maybe one, maybe three, maybe two. 390 00:36:26,880.8389844 --> 00:36:33,270.8389844 I say, oh, if you go on that way, it will take you a long time since your place will be Christianized. 391 00:36:34,200.8389844 --> 00:36:34,380.8389844 Yeah. 392 00:36:34,410.8389844 --> 00:36:45,510.8389844 So why don't you do the family go special as your usual service? But is it real? Is it deep enough? Is there enough? there's so many arguments. 393 00:36:45,510.8389844 --> 00:36:47,40.8389844 I say, man, there's people coming. 394 00:36:47,460.8389844 --> 00:36:49,560.8389844 So do your service as family. 395 00:36:49,560.8389844 --> 00:36:57,210.8389844 Go special every two weeks and the other week you can do your stuff you've been doing since it's cultural shift. 396 00:36:58,350.8389844 --> 00:36:59,310.8389844 So, difficult. 397 00:36:59,850.8389844 --> 00:37:00,480.8389844 So difficult. 398 00:37:00,480.8389844 --> 00:37:01,260.8389844 Long way to go. 399 00:37:01,290.8389844 --> 00:37:01,800.8389844 Long way. 400 00:37:01,920.8389844 --> 00:37:07,380.8389844 They need one year, three years, five years, and sometimes they never even change. 401 00:37:07,560.8389844 --> 00:37:09,390.8389844 They close the door before changing. 402 00:37:10,283.9150617 --> 00:37:41,805.606807 so how do you go about now helping believers grow in their faith in a way that really promotes that relational dynamic of, loving others and fighting them into homes? Are there any rhythms or practices that you've observed that are already helping people develop in their resilience to remain faithful to God and re remain faithful to those relationships? I think what's really helpful is a second naivety, which we know from theological thoughts. 403 00:37:42,255.606807 --> 00:37:53,745.606807 It's, a theological expression, so like becoming a child of God again, in a very, in a naive way, not being naive in what I do and what I say, but in my heart. 404 00:37:53,865.606807 --> 00:37:54,165.606807 just. 405 00:37:55,515.606807 --> 00:37:58,605.606807 I don't, maybe I don't need to, explain the whole expression. 406 00:37:59,185.606807 --> 00:38:03,135.606807 It, it, speaks a little for itself, but, you can Google it if you like. 407 00:38:03,255.606807 --> 00:38:04,185.606807 second naivety. 408 00:38:04,490.606807 --> 00:38:04,845.606807 I, like it. 409 00:38:05,145.606807 --> 00:38:08,85.606807 And then second naivety and first love again. 410 00:38:08,115.606807 --> 00:38:14,995.8625146 So first love means if Jesus people, experience fruit. 411 00:38:15,585.8625146 --> 00:38:22,665.8625146 Many times I find this first love, not exploding, but developing. 412 00:38:23,955.8625146 --> 00:38:24,285.8625146 Yeah. 413 00:38:24,735.8625146 --> 00:38:37,770.8625146 So it, it's, I guess it's ideal to make them kind of missionaries in their own, teach them how you can be a missionary in their own environment, in your own small place, and that's enough. 414 00:38:37,990.8625146 --> 00:38:40,5.8625146 You don't need to invent the gospel. 415 00:38:40,270.8625146 --> 00:38:40,990.8625146 Brand new. 416 00:38:40,990.8625146 --> 00:38:42,550.8625146 It's all brand new by itself. 417 00:38:42,850.8625146 --> 00:38:46,30.8625146 You don't need to study how to talk and so on. 418 00:38:46,90.8625146 --> 00:38:52,217.5291812 You need to learn some things and there's great things to learn, Nick Pollard, how to talk about Jesus. 419 00:38:52,427.5291812 --> 00:38:53,447.5291812 It's, so simple. 420 00:38:53,447.5291812 --> 00:38:53,987.5291812 It's so great. 421 00:38:54,377.5291812 --> 00:38:59,857.5291812 And other things, it's such an adventure to learn and I, try to make people. 422 00:39:00,612.5291812 --> 00:39:12,464.125897 Curious and learn the adventure of being a missionary because it, it helps a lot to be more resilient in this whole thing. 423 00:39:12,464.125897 --> 00:39:15,44.125897 Be because it, sure it is difficult. 424 00:39:15,404.125897 --> 00:39:15,674.125897 Sure. 425 00:39:15,674.125897 --> 00:39:17,984.125897 People don't want Jesus as a savior. 426 00:39:17,984.125897 --> 00:39:18,614.125897 They don't want him. 427 00:39:18,854.125897 --> 00:39:20,54.125897 This is not new to us. 428 00:39:20,294.125897 --> 00:39:20,729.125897 we, we know that. 429 00:39:21,404.125897 --> 00:39:24,194.125897 From the beginning, and it's still the same way today. 430 00:39:24,194.125897 --> 00:39:29,834.125897 So it is not easy, but things we can do, they are sometimes they are really easy in or they are simple. 431 00:39:31,914.125897 --> 00:39:32,484.125897 teach them. 432 00:39:33,286.9214343 --> 00:39:47,490.2547677 team in Denberg here where I live in this place with young adults and very sensitive characters, but they're passionate and if they see fruit from their own efforts. 433 00:39:47,835.2547677 --> 00:39:56,520.2547677 There's a passion and a resilience is growing, like a fire that needs wood and you add some wood and then man, there's something going on. 434 00:39:56,760.2547677 --> 00:40:12,240.2547677 It's a lot about empowering and giving them the space to do what they like, and then be in the background and coach a little and be, you can ask me if you want, and then shut, up, because wait until they're asking, because otherwise who it's not easy. 435 00:40:13,515.2547677 --> 00:40:15,885.2547677 but that's, working out in some places. 436 00:40:16,215.2547677 --> 00:40:25,898.588101 It, does here in the city where I live with a church team that I, which is just my church, I'm, not, employed here, I still have my own church where I live and where I go to. 437 00:40:26,183.588101 --> 00:40:26,396.088101 Yeah. 438 00:40:27,18.588101 --> 00:40:30,8.588101 I really appreciate the call to go back to. 439 00:40:30,848.588101 --> 00:40:35,498.588101 Simplicity and, we don't have to reinvent the wheel on some of these things. 440 00:40:35,498.588101 --> 00:40:39,257.0601653 they are, from the gospels and they're still applicable today. 441 00:40:39,657.0601653 --> 00:40:41,97.0601653 So it, it's really encouraging. 442 00:40:41,637.0601653 --> 00:40:49,137.0601653 Oliver, as, we chatting together, I'll be honest, a large part of what you speaking about is so foreign to me. 443 00:40:49,562.0601653 --> 00:40:53,787.0601653 I, don't live in a secular society like as you would see in Europe. 444 00:40:53,787.0601653 --> 00:40:56,307.0601653 We definitely have those elements in our country. 445 00:40:56,847.0601653 --> 00:40:58,767.0601653 But I was just at a church planting. 446 00:40:59,137.0601653 --> 00:41:00,877.0601653 Gathering of church planters and. 447 00:41:01,597.0601653 --> 00:41:04,957.0601653 There is a shame that's associated with some of our church planters. 448 00:41:04,957.0601653 --> 00:41:08,407.0601653 If they have anything less than 200 people attending their church. 449 00:41:08,767.0601653 --> 00:41:12,697.0601653 It's almost considered a failure, in, in some of these contexts. 450 00:41:13,147.0601653 --> 00:41:16,477.0601653 And so it is just fascinating for me to hear. 451 00:41:16,692.0601653 --> 00:41:19,662.0601653 Your perspective and, how you are going about this. 452 00:41:20,82.0601653 --> 00:41:27,792.0601653 But having said that, I know that this is not foreign to, many who are listening to this, especially in the, more Western countries. 453 00:41:28,182.0601653 --> 00:41:43,352.0601653 And so I would love to give you an opportunity just to speak to those leaders in particular and to say to them, these from, your perspective in Germany, what can some of these church planters and ministry leaders who are in very tough environments. 454 00:41:44,232.0601653 --> 00:42:02,792.6191816 if you could leave them with a word or a piece of advice or, you were, invited to a church planting conference in Toronto or London, what would you tell them? on one hand this is a difficult question because I don't want to like, I know. 455 00:42:02,822.6191816 --> 00:42:03,842.6191816 Listen to me. 456 00:42:04,142.6191816 --> 00:42:06,227.6191816 I can tell you how, Yeah. 457 00:42:06,642.6191816 --> 00:42:12,492.6191816 I've been coaching a lot of people here, but nationwide is different than worldwide. 458 00:42:12,790.0729263 --> 00:42:18,860.0729263 I'd say always look for community with other church planters. 459 00:42:19,610.0729263 --> 00:42:21,470.0729263 Get yourself some networks. 460 00:42:22,625.0729263 --> 00:42:24,995.0729263 and Always reach out for help. 461 00:42:27,5.0729263 --> 00:42:47,960.0729263 you know what I'm saying? If, if there's some very, unique challenge you're facing, there are people who faced this thing before and why not ask them? To ask them, you need to know when I was a Micklen berg Pomerania where this, is really, man, this is spiritual warfare. 462 00:42:48,590.0729263 --> 00:42:55,370.0729263 I'm saying this as a pist, so whoever knows, pist knows we're not talking like that many times. 463 00:42:56,930.0729263 --> 00:43:01,220.0729263 So I'm, serious about it even though I'm laughing. 464 00:43:01,396.739593 --> 00:43:05,716.739593 But it's nice because even though you are sometimes in, in wars like that. 465 00:43:06,279.2963223 --> 00:43:08,949.2963223 There's times of war and there's times of laughter. 466 00:43:09,159.2963223 --> 00:43:10,164.2963223 Again, they will come again. 467 00:43:10,837.6296557 --> 00:43:21,277.6296557 So I was always reaching out for some guy who was a teacher for religious instructions because I did this and combined this with his mission in the church. 468 00:43:21,337.6296557 --> 00:43:33,397.6296557 I need to know, so I got to know two or three people and this was so helpful or like who is in a situation like I am and I can go there, travel there two hour, no problem. 469 00:43:33,397.6296557 --> 00:43:39,92.6296557 Get into the car, get into the train, go there, make a date or call them today, you can do a Zoom call, whatever. 470 00:43:40,87.6296557 --> 00:43:41,677.6296557 It is so easy to connect. 471 00:43:42,247.6296557 --> 00:43:43,327.6296557 You need to do this. 472 00:43:43,327.6296557 --> 00:43:48,937.6296557 There's so many people in Germany that don't learn from their neighbors. 473 00:43:50,497.6296557 --> 00:43:51,517.6296557 I don't know why. 474 00:43:52,357.6296557 --> 00:44:01,819.5182715 I guess this is what brought me the most resilience and sometimes even power and, fun and new Motivation to see. 475 00:44:02,629.5182715 --> 00:44:03,79.5182715 Okay. 476 00:44:03,439.5182715 --> 00:44:08,719.5182715 And sometimes even though things were not changing quickly or, a problem wasn't solved Yeah. 477 00:44:08,719.5182715 --> 00:44:09,49.5182715 At all. 478 00:44:09,79.5182715 --> 00:44:09,769.5182715 Not at all. 479 00:44:09,889.5182715 --> 00:44:11,509.5182715 But you knew. 480 00:44:11,539.5182715 --> 00:44:12,319.5182715 You always knew. 481 00:44:12,319.5182715 --> 00:44:15,79.5182715 You can refer to God, Jesus is there. 482 00:44:15,559.5182715 --> 00:44:25,699.5182715 And sometimes I'm just doing a big worship time like Paul in the, in his cell sometimes. 483 00:44:26,111.1849381 --> 00:44:29,351.1849381 I need, a brother or a sister or a friend. 484 00:44:29,921.1849381 --> 00:44:30,521.1849381 Reach out. 485 00:44:30,641.1849381 --> 00:44:31,211.1849381 Reach out. 486 00:44:31,741.5239 --> 00:44:31,981.5239 Yeah. 487 00:44:32,341.5239 --> 00:44:44,821.5239 and I think that is so applicable to every single person that's listening to this because you can be in, in a very harsh environment like you were explaining and experienced spiritual warfare. 488 00:44:45,301.5239 --> 00:44:52,261.5239 Or you can be in a, what feels like a very fruitful environment, but also be experiencing spiritual warfare. 489 00:44:52,906.5239 --> 00:45:00,106.5239 Regardless of which one you're in or any space in between, you need those relationships to sustain you, to empower you. 490 00:45:00,136.5239 --> 00:45:04,666.5239 Jesus didn't do ministry alone, and so how could we think we, we can do that ourselves. 491 00:45:05,836.5239 --> 00:45:07,696.5239 I really, love that encouragement, Oliver. 492 00:45:07,696.5239 --> 00:45:08,236.5239 Thank you. 493 00:45:09,284.8050194 --> 00:45:14,54.8050194 so we are gonna have to begin to wrap up our, conversation. 494 00:45:14,724.8050194 --> 00:45:25,279.8050194 I would love to hear from you how our listeners from around the world can be praying for you, for your movement and, for the church planting and revitalization that's taking place. 495 00:45:25,942.2675324 --> 00:45:27,232.2675324 Now if you are. 496 00:45:28,402.2675324 --> 00:45:31,132.2675324 Connected or related with church planters. 497 00:45:32,572.2675324 --> 00:45:49,365.6008658 there's always a subject to pray for, which is pray for many, teams, people hearing a call in Europe and in Germany, especially in eastern Germany to plant a church. 498 00:45:49,605.6008658 --> 00:45:55,455.6008658 So you can pray for that all over the world, but especially for us, I'd love you to, and. 499 00:45:55,675.6008658 --> 00:45:55,965.6008658 then. 500 00:45:57,270.6008658 --> 00:46:18,554.8666989 We have this unbelievable testimony of we, so if people around the world know about Germany, there's some big theologians, and there's some, some spiritual history that's really rich and, I'm not showing off because I, I wasn't there, but it's good. 501 00:46:18,614.8666989 --> 00:46:24,302.6247276 And this, history is, there's still something left, not even something. 502 00:46:24,302.6247276 --> 00:46:25,772.6247276 There's a lot of things left. 503 00:46:26,342.6247276 --> 00:46:32,942.6247276 We are talking about millions of people in a church that fell somehow asleep. 504 00:46:33,842.6247276 --> 00:46:45,182.6247276 And how about praying? There's a, an awakening like in Maybe in England, in some parts is showing up maybe slowly. 505 00:46:45,182.6247276 --> 00:46:45,812.6247276 I don't know. 506 00:46:46,419.5718195 --> 00:46:51,19.5718195 I'd love the people who listen to the podcast to pray for that. 507 00:46:51,409.5718195 --> 00:46:58,744.5718195 there's still so much left and why shouldn't God be able to wake it up? Yeah. 508 00:46:58,749.5718195 --> 00:47:01,99.5718195 Right? I'm here listening. 509 00:47:01,669.5718195 --> 00:47:03,79.5718195 God, if you wanna. 510 00:47:03,604.5718195 --> 00:47:06,994.5718195 Do it and I can help, then let me know I'm ready. 511 00:47:07,384.5718195 --> 00:47:12,514.5718195 And there are many people like me who think like that and maybe we can help, maybe sometimes we're in the way. 512 00:47:12,514.5718195 --> 00:47:13,24.5718195 I don't know. 513 00:47:13,264.5718195 --> 00:47:14,584.5718195 So we need to pray about this. 514 00:47:15,787.9051528 --> 00:47:16,87.9051528 Great. 515 00:47:16,267.9051528 --> 00:47:26,617.9051528 I, would love to close us off and pray, but before we do I wanna invite you just to, to share one final thoughts or word of encouragement to our audience. 516 00:47:26,854.5718195 --> 00:47:29,434.5718195 What we really love. 517 00:47:29,779.5718195 --> 00:47:36,229.5718195 As Christians, if I might say we, because I know there's many, difference. 518 00:47:36,259.5718195 --> 00:47:40,429.5718195 Even though we're the Ecclesia, we, are the church all around the world. 519 00:47:40,909.5718195 --> 00:47:54,439.5718195 What we love, in all parts is to be connected, to, have our time together with a small, with a hood or with a peer group or wherever, with our people, our church family, and that's good. 520 00:47:54,619.5718195 --> 00:47:55,429.5718195 That's really great. 521 00:47:56,524.5718195 --> 00:48:03,214.5718195 Let us not invest all of our time and spend all of our time with ourselves. 522 00:48:03,610.0078013 --> 00:48:11,380.0078013 that's really discouraging for me sometimes, how, I don't have that much time, but the time I have, I spend it with Christians. 523 00:48:11,410.0078013 --> 00:48:12,40.0078013 How should. 524 00:48:12,175.0078013 --> 00:48:21,55.0078013 If any people come to Christ, if I invest all my time into the people that are already there and I know we need to, sure. 525 00:48:21,115.0078013 --> 00:48:28,868.3411347 But let's enjoy making friends with non-Christians, listening to them. 526 00:48:29,408.3411347 --> 00:48:30,758.3411347 It's so enriching. 527 00:48:30,788.3411347 --> 00:48:39,893.3411347 It's It's so tough sometimes, but it's so encouraging and it's so much fun sometimes, and they tell us things we need to know from God. 528 00:48:40,433.3411347 --> 00:48:48,8.3411347 I'd love to encourage you to make friends with non-Christian, and if you don't, if you can't with five people, as we said, how about one? Yeah. 529 00:48:50,51.674468 --> 00:48:52,721.674468 Oliver, this has been such a rich conversation. 530 00:48:52,871.674468 --> 00:48:57,701.674468 I, know I've learned a lot and, even from, even though our contexts are so different. 531 00:48:58,121.674468 --> 00:49:07,721.674468 I've learned so much from this conversation that I can apply and, I would love to, to honor you and thank you for the value that you brought to this podcast, to our movement. 532 00:49:08,501.674468 --> 00:49:12,821.674468 and I would love to take the opportunity while we can to pray for you. 533 00:49:12,941.674468 --> 00:49:18,91.0961722 And so I wanna invite everyone who's listening in, watching in to just pray along with us in the spirits. 534 00:49:18,571.0961722 --> 00:49:20,11.0961722 And so let's pray together. 535 00:49:20,108.4034378 --> 00:49:22,141.0961722 Father God, I want to thank you for Oliver. 536 00:49:22,141.0961722 --> 00:49:22,981.0961722 I want to thank you. 537 00:49:23,326.0961722 --> 00:49:27,16.0961722 For the movements that he is a part of within Germany. 538 00:49:27,46.0961722 --> 00:49:35,642.9618374 The many associations, the many church planters, the many churches that are connected in, Lord, the German nation. 539 00:49:36,822.9618374 --> 00:49:39,822.9618374 the challenges they face, the opportunities that they face. 540 00:49:40,392.9618374 --> 00:49:47,526.2987763 And I, wanna pray along with the, from the book of Ephesians, I'm just reminded of the scripture, awake o sleeper. 541 00:49:48,546.2987763 --> 00:49:51,516.2987763 Let Christ shine on you and be risen from the dead. 542 00:49:51,516.2987763 --> 00:49:53,766.2987763 And so I pray that upon Germany. 543 00:49:53,766.2987763 --> 00:49:55,596.2987763 Lord, we thank you for the history. 544 00:49:56,16.2987763 --> 00:49:59,526.2987763 We thank you that we are standing on many of their shoulders. 545 00:50:00,426.2987763 --> 00:50:02,496.2987763 But Lord, we ask for renewal. 546 00:50:02,496.2987763 --> 00:50:03,756.2987763 We ask for revival. 547 00:50:04,116.2987763 --> 00:50:07,26.2987763 We ask Father God for you to do a new thing. 548 00:50:07,956.2987763 --> 00:50:14,91.2987763 And Lord, we ask that you would use people like Oliver to be a part of that and to lead that renewal. 549 00:50:15,231.2987763 --> 00:50:17,91.2987763 We ask for your anointing and your blessing. 550 00:50:17,91.2987763 --> 00:50:22,791.2987763 We ask that your kingdom would come, that your will would be done in Germany as it is in heaven. 551 00:50:23,661.2987763 --> 00:50:26,61.2987763 We pray this in the mighty name of Jesus Christ. 552 00:50:26,511.2987763 --> 00:50:26,961.2987763 Amen. 553 00:50:27,24.6321096 --> 00:50:27,314.6321096 Amen. 554 00:50:28,676.5244616 --> 00:50:32,766.5244616 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 555 00:50:33,46.5244616 --> 00:50:38,976.5244616 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 556 00:50:39,465.1469974 --> 00:50:40,265.1469974 Till next week. 557 00:50:40,635.1469974 --> 00:50:41,85.1469974 Cheers.