Friends on Mission: Jason Ballard on Friendship in Ministry, the Pastoral Burden, and Parachurch Partnerships

Episode Transcript
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.0000000003First, I'm a pastor. 2 00:00:01,140.0000000003 --> 00:00:02,340.0000000001 That's a unique calling. 3 00:00:02,670.0000000001 --> 00:00:04,50.0000000002 That's unique vocation. 4 00:00:04,61.7347033049 --> 00:00:11,681.734703305 Sometimes as a pastor, we feel like the extent of the kingdom of God in a place is the collection of the activities of the church organized. 5 00:00:11,951.734703305 --> 00:00:14,111.734703305 But that is like a small fraction of it. 6 00:00:14,111.734703305 --> 00:00:20,561.734703305 It's important, but the kingdom of God is the church scattered across the city, pressed in all of these different ways. 7 00:00:20,705.480786856 --> 00:00:26,426.962660225 having deep knowing relationships is an exceptional challenge for people in ministry leadership. 8 00:00:26,579.67770786 --> 00:00:35,563.595010149 I believe that there is the possibility of not just having meaningful relationships, but doing ministry from the context of relationship, of knowing, trusting friendships. 9 00:00:35,604.214501815 --> 00:00:41,658.567052194 what does this mean to pastor today? Very warm. 10 00:00:41,658.567052194 --> 00:00:44,688.567052194 Welcome to the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 11 00:00:44,718.567052194 --> 00:00:49,218.567052194 For those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 12 00:00:49,728.567052194 --> 00:00:55,38.567052194 I'm your host, Jason Watson, and today on the podcast I have the joy of sharing an interview that I conducted. 13 00:00:55,378.567052194 --> 00:01:10,318.567052194 With Pastor Jason Ballard, the lead pastor of the Way Church Vancouver Canada, and the executive director of the Pastorate, which is a ministry organization seeking to help form healthy pastors who in turn lead healthy churches. 14 00:01:11,413.567052194 --> 00:01:26,113.567052194 During our time together, Jason spoke into the importance and the challenge of having friends in ministry, and he did a fantastic job in sharing the heart and the burden of local church pastors and what they carry for the kingdom of God. 15 00:01:27,333.567052194 --> 00:01:49,858.64338471 Now if you are wanting a sneak peek into the life of a pastor or wanna know how you can better come alongside your own local church leaders, or simply wanna hear how the local church plays a role in God's global mission, then I wanna invite you to go ahead and grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Pastor Jason Ballad. 16 00:01:52,978.2551218 --> 00:01:54,598.2551218 Jason, welcome to the podcast. 17 00:01:54,598.2551218 --> 00:01:55,388.2551218 It's great to have you with us. 18 00:01:56,180.2551218 --> 00:01:57,50.2551218 Good to be with you Jason. 19 00:01:57,631.7551218 --> 00:02:00,781.7551218 Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. 20 00:02:01,141.7551218 --> 00:02:03,241.7551218 we had to postpone it because you were ill. 21 00:02:03,581.7551218 --> 00:02:12,789.20896078 but I'm particularly excited because you have been someone who has been in both the Parachurch ministry, seen and you. 22 00:02:12,919.20896078 --> 00:02:26,427.10168988 Also deeply involved in pastoral ministry, and I'm really hoping that we can learn, as a global community, we can learn from you, we can hear a bit of your heart, a bit of your experience and, gain some of those insights. 23 00:02:26,427.10168988 --> 00:02:33,687.10168988 And I think particularly as well that we'll get to closer to the end of the interview is your work with pastors in Canada. 24 00:02:34,107.10168988 --> 00:02:43,814.55552887 And I'm really excited to, to share, and give you a platform to share some of those, experiences and insights that you're learning as you're trying to support pastors in your context. 25 00:02:43,980.79720322 --> 00:02:53,340.79720322 but I wanna kick off just like we kick off all of our interviews, but just giving you an opportunity to introduce yourself, to share a bit about your journey, a bit about your life with our audience. 26 00:02:53,658.6232428 --> 00:02:57,468.6232428 tell us where, do you call home? Tell us about your calling and your ministry. 27 00:02:58,62.28990947 --> 00:03:05,202.28990947 I am in the city of Vancouver in Canada, I've spent my whole life in the suburbs of Vancouver. 28 00:03:05,262.28990947 --> 00:03:10,847.28990947 About six years ago, my family and I moved to the city to be part of a church plant the Wade Church. 29 00:03:11,577.28990947 --> 00:03:14,667.28990947 And we planted in the pandemic, which is a fun story. 30 00:03:15,87.28990947 --> 00:03:17,127.28990947 September, 2020 was when we launched. 31 00:03:17,187.28990947 --> 00:03:20,547.28990947 And so my life is here in the city with my wife Rach. 32 00:03:20,727.28990947 --> 00:03:23,217.28990947 We've got three kids, Hudson, Mary, and Millie. 33 00:03:23,337.28990947 --> 00:03:24,387.28990947 12, 10, and eight. 34 00:03:25,797.28990947 --> 00:03:29,67.28990947 we really love where we call home. 35 00:03:29,967.28990947 --> 00:03:30,987.28990947 really called here. 36 00:03:31,803.95657614 --> 00:03:39,843.95657614 And my world is like outside of trying to be a decent dad and a husband is leading the church with some friends. 37 00:03:39,843.95657614 --> 00:03:42,63.95657614 So some friends and I pastor the church together. 38 00:03:42,513.95657614 --> 00:03:50,973.95657614 I'm part of a ministry called The Pastorate, which is really trying to strengthen the hearts and hands of pastors across Canada and beyond. 39 00:03:51,603.95657614 --> 00:04:04,257.28990947 And I'm particularly interested in, how to build resources that can strengthen followers of Jesus to build deep roots with God and discover life with him. 40 00:04:04,497.28990947 --> 00:04:05,997.28990947 And then as a result, see. 41 00:04:07,92.28990947 --> 00:04:10,37.28990947 and transformation in the communities around them. 42 00:04:10,510.45657614 --> 00:04:11,140.45657614 Wonderful. 43 00:04:11,140.45657614 --> 00:04:25,268.47223018 we're gonna chat a little bit about each of the different parts of, your journey, before we do that, I do want just dive into, to one of the comments that you just, you brushed over it, but for me quite beautiful. 44 00:04:25,268.47223018 --> 00:04:27,728.47223018 You spoke about how you are running. 45 00:04:28,523.47223018 --> 00:04:30,413.47223018 Church with a group of friends. 46 00:04:31,763.47223018 --> 00:04:39,423.47223018 And, for me there's sometimes this mantra around ministry that ministry is lonely, that the pastoral ministry is a lonely journey. 47 00:04:39,823.45023755 --> 00:04:40,774.08586655 a lot of hurts. 48 00:04:40,815.61380221 --> 00:04:42,135.61380221 a lot of isolation. 49 00:04:42,765.61380221 --> 00:04:50,655.61380221 And I think that experience also translates into other ministry spheres as well, especially as we go into the global ministry space. 50 00:04:51,111.70333297 --> 00:04:53,301.70333297 many ministry leaders are lonely. 51 00:04:53,631.70333297 --> 00:05:00,261.70333297 and I was just wondering if you could share a little bit about that choice to, to run a church with some friends. 52 00:05:00,441.70333297 --> 00:05:01,761.70333297 it sounded quite specific. 53 00:05:02,91.70333297 --> 00:05:13,431.70333297 and just share your journey around that and what advice you would have for ministry leaders who are isolated and alone and maybe some of the younger leaders to encourage them to, do, stick it out with some friends. 54 00:05:13,792.38515115 --> 00:05:35,973.77151479 I remember being at like a pastor's gathering a number of years ago, and the setting is like maybe 20 pastors and their spouses, those that were married and an older, wiser, really experienced pastor, mentor figure, is at the front of the room and we're just around on couches. 55 00:05:35,973.77151479 --> 00:05:52,668.77151479 And this one pastor, who I've known from a distance, leads an amazing church and he shoots up his hand and he goes, is it true that ministry has to be lonely? And it was a question, but it was also like a. 56 00:05:53,270.43818146 --> 00:05:56,900.43818146 Maybe a, cry or a confession. 57 00:05:57,860.43818146 --> 00:06:04,160.43818146 And I've thought about this a lot because when I was younger in ministry, I really pushed back on that narrative. 58 00:06:04,670.43818146 --> 00:06:06,680.43818146 Like it wasn't my experience. 59 00:06:06,680.43818146 --> 00:06:08,870.43818146 I experienced a lot of deep relationship. 60 00:06:08,870.43818146 --> 00:06:25,899.80671372 I felt really connected and known, but as I've gone on in ministry and then found myself in more senior leadership roles, I feel like there is a very real reality of ministry being, isolating it, feeling very lonely. 61 00:06:26,319.80671372 --> 00:06:27,849.80671372 And there's lots of reasons for that. 62 00:06:27,849.80671372 --> 00:06:34,569.80671372 I think this is one of the big challenges that face pastors and ministry leaders, the challenge of relationships. 63 00:06:35,19.80671372 --> 00:06:36,999.80671372 You end up in all these dual relationships. 64 00:06:36,999.80671372 --> 00:06:41,589.80671372 And so people who are, once your friends are also parishioners, are also colleagues, are also. 65 00:06:42,159.80671372 --> 00:06:47,19.80671372 And when everything's going great, those can work and they can flourish. 66 00:06:47,624.85370403 --> 00:06:50,504.85370403 but they're tested and they're challenged. 67 00:06:50,984.85370403 --> 00:07:02,954.85370403 And for a number of reasons, having deep knowing relationships is an exceptional challenge for people in pastoral ministry and ministry leadership. 68 00:07:03,501.5203707 --> 00:07:16,11.5203707 At the same time, I believe that there is the possibility of not just having meaningful relationships, but doing ministry from the context of relationship, of knowing, trusting friendships. 69 00:07:16,101.5203707 --> 00:07:17,751.5203707 And that's been my experience. 70 00:07:17,811.5203707 --> 00:07:23,631.5203707 And I would love to say that I started with a theology, like we could talk about theology of diverse giftings. 71 00:07:23,841.5203707 --> 00:07:29,151.5203707 we could talk about, there's apostles and prophets and Jason, I'm across from you. 72 00:07:29,151.5203707 --> 00:07:30,111.5203707 We're in different countries. 73 00:07:30,111.5203707 --> 00:07:42,771.5203707 We might have lots in common, but what we both know is that you have been uniquely gifted by God and called to particular place with unique giftings and abilities, and me as well, and God and his thoughtfulness. 74 00:07:44,46.5203707 --> 00:07:50,766.5203707 Scatters his gifting and wiring and creativity across the body of Christ, and then pulls a collection of people to compliment one another. 75 00:07:51,6.5203707 --> 00:07:56,46.5203707 Like none of us have all the gifts, all the insight, all of the passion, all of the convictions needed. 76 00:07:56,46.5203707 --> 00:07:59,736.5203707 We need a, we're not codependent, but we're interdependent. 77 00:07:59,736.5203707 --> 00:08:02,436.5203707 There's an interdependency in the church. 78 00:08:02,526.5203707 --> 00:08:06,276.5203707 And so I'd love to say I started with a theology of gifting. 79 00:08:06,546.5203707 --> 00:08:15,296.5203707 But what I started with was my own dysfunction so essentially as in school, I struggled so much with school because of a learning disability. 80 00:08:15,986.5203707 --> 00:08:33,356.5203707 And, but what I figured out is that I could go to a restaurant or a coffee shop late at night with a buddy, and if we talked through the homework and we worked through it together, that I could do it if I was doing it in a communal dialectic way. 81 00:08:33,506.5203707 --> 00:08:38,516.5203707 And so subconsciously, like it wasn't conscious, but subconsciously very early on in my story. 82 00:08:38,876.5203707 --> 00:08:45,656.5203707 I found myself moving through the world in these interdependent relationships, and it was the only way that I could flourish. 83 00:08:45,656.5203707 --> 00:08:47,876.5203707 Like it was the only way I could get stuff done. 84 00:08:47,876.5203707 --> 00:08:50,666.5203707 It was the only way I could see ideas in my hearts. 85 00:08:50,666.5203707 --> 00:08:57,86.5203707 Like I remember being in high school and having this desire to start a discussion group about Jesus with our non-Christian friends. 86 00:08:57,881.5203707 --> 00:09:10,346.5203707 but my instinct and this really just came outta my wiring and some of my real gaps, is I remember talking to my friend Andrew, being like, Andrew, can we do this together? And it was, it, never felt like I could just go and do the thing. 87 00:09:10,346.5203707 --> 00:09:12,56.5203707 It was always me and a few friends. 88 00:09:12,146.5203707 --> 00:09:14,156.5203707 And so I stumbled into that. 89 00:09:14,276.5203707 --> 00:09:26,706.5203707 And looking back, I see that as God's grace, like all through my ministry life, in my high school with Alpha, with planting the church, it was always let's do this with friends. 90 00:09:27,276.5203707 --> 00:09:35,536.5203707 And that's been really challenged, especially in these last years because as ministry gets more complicated and complex and life gets more complicated and complex. 91 00:09:36,366.5203707 --> 00:09:37,986.5203707 Those relationships are challenged. 92 00:09:38,436.5203707 --> 00:09:46,806.5203707 But now I look at it and I do see that there is part of God's design that we are called to do administrative relationship. 93 00:09:46,806.5203707 --> 00:09:54,786.5203707 And most recent, I've been thinking about one of my good friends and I were chatting about witness this idea of witness, like the gospel witness. 94 00:09:55,326.5203707 --> 00:09:58,476.5203707 And he really pushed onto this idea of the witness of the church. 95 00:09:58,476.5203707 --> 00:10:11,136.5203707 Oftentimes we think about my witness to my neighbor, right? So my, but he was really saying what if it is also the witness of a community of people to the people of the city. 96 00:10:11,346.5203707 --> 00:10:32,721.48299153 So for example, this home I'm in right now, I live with my wife and our three kids, but just across this wall on the other side of the duplex is my friend Jeremy, who lives with his sister Sarah, and a couple from our church called Nathan and Hannah and I wonder if our witness on the street is as much about our life together. 97 00:10:33,261.48299153 --> 00:10:38,331.48299153 And are doing it together than it is about just my ability to bear witness. 98 00:10:38,331.48299153 --> 00:10:40,881.48299153 Now I know there's there's both are at play. 99 00:10:41,511.48299153 --> 00:10:47,721.48299153 But that's a very compelling idea for me because all of a sudden the burden feels off my shoulders in that unhealthy sense. 100 00:10:48,261.48299153 --> 00:10:52,551.48299153 I also feel like I get to be the person that I am in the context of a community. 101 00:10:53,151.48299153 --> 00:10:59,901.48299153 And then I think there's all these trickle down benefits about longevity, about it disarms the enemy, his accusing void. 102 00:11:00,501.48299153 --> 00:11:05,108.91043908 we could chat about this for a while, but for me, I'm not saying that it's not very lonely. 103 00:11:05,198.91043908 --> 00:11:08,138.91043908 I think this is a real challenge, particularly for pastors. 104 00:11:08,978.91043908 --> 00:11:15,938.91043908 But I also believe that it's possible the narrative of the man or woman at the top leading the thing. 105 00:11:16,508.91043908 --> 00:11:24,562.24377241 I think that in scripture, particularly as it unfolds in the New Testament, we see an alternative model of Christ at the head. 106 00:11:24,997.24377241 --> 00:11:28,477.24377241 And a plurality of giftings at work together. 107 00:11:28,867.24377241 --> 00:11:37,717.24377241 And I think that part of our witness and our power is manifest in the mutuality of relationships. 108 00:11:37,957.24377241 --> 00:11:42,97.24377241 and I guess the last thing I'd say we could chat about it more is it's just way more fun. 109 00:11:43,281.35375964 --> 00:11:44,601.35375964 there's just so much more joy. 110 00:11:45,891.35375964 --> 00:11:49,44.68709298 if you eat a good meal, it's not as good. 111 00:11:49,44.68709298 --> 00:11:59,998.02042631 If you're not sitting across from somebody going, are you tasting this? And when you have a tough day, the sting goes away a lot more when you're sitting side by side with someone else. 112 00:11:59,998.02042631 --> 00:12:00,958.02042631 Like today was hard. 113 00:12:01,888.02042631 --> 00:12:11,458.02042631 And I think that's, the story of fighting for relationships in ministry and doing it with one another, is that it will be challenging to keep those relationships. 114 00:12:11,458.02042631 --> 00:12:15,658.02042631 It will require humility, forgiveness, confession, submission, all those things. 115 00:12:16,48.02042631 --> 00:12:19,978.02042631 But it's so much sweeter to stand at the end of whatever it is Sunday. 116 00:12:20,848.02042631 --> 00:12:22,738.02042631 Or ministry season is saying, look what God did. 117 00:12:22,738.02042631 --> 00:12:32,848.02042631 How sweet is that? And when you get those hits, like the, just the painful blows of ministry to go, I just, it just stings a little less when you're not alone in it. 118 00:12:33,183.23911694 --> 00:12:33,363.23911694 yeah. 119 00:12:33,363.23911694 --> 00:12:34,751.94559847 Jess, you, really, up. 120 00:12:34,751.94559847 --> 00:12:46,500.6293304 Pushing us in, a really healthy direction because, within the Lizanne community, we, love the whole vision is to see the world come to know Jesus Christ. 121 00:12:46,830.6293304 --> 00:12:48,900.6293304 And we sometimes silo these things out. 122 00:12:48,900.6293304 --> 00:12:51,660.6293304 So we silo them into proclamation evangelism. 123 00:12:51,660.6293304 --> 00:12:56,100.6293304 You gotta preach the word so that people can hear, so they can know, so they can discover Jesus. 124 00:12:56,850.6293304 --> 00:13:06,90.6293304 and we also have another group that, an integral mission where it's like we have to feed people, we have to help people, we have to, provide for their needs. 125 00:13:06,365.6293304 --> 00:13:12,358.96266373 All of that kind of thing, so that there's a reason for us to share the gospel, because a hungry person can't hear it. 126 00:13:13,18.96266373 --> 00:13:16,618.96266373 and, both of those are beautiful and both of those are biblical and both of those are good. 127 00:13:16,888.96266373 --> 00:13:20,428.96266373 But what you're touching on is another way which Jesus even speaks about. 128 00:13:20,428.96266373 --> 00:13:24,978.96266373 He says, by this, all men will know that you are my disciples, right? if you love one another. 129 00:13:24,978.96266373 --> 00:13:30,828.96266373 And so there is this relational dynamic that is also a proclamation and declares Jesus Christ. 130 00:13:31,168.96266373 --> 00:13:34,168.96266373 I would love just to push in here a little bit further because. 131 00:13:34,735.19387215 --> 00:13:52,233.40772758 I think that that, what you're touching in on is as, you climb up in leadership, and you mentioned dual relationships and you mentioned the complexity that things become, when you are the senior leader in, your organization, you cannot share your whole life, the deepest parts of you. 132 00:13:52,233.40772758 --> 00:13:57,33.40772758 Perhaps with those under you, you have to have different kinds of relationships. 133 00:13:57,33.40772758 --> 00:14:01,233.40772758 So how do you, or maybe, you're gonna push on that, and I would love for you to push on it. 134 00:14:01,593.40772758 --> 00:14:09,463.40772758 How do you go about having healthy relationships at the top? And speak to those senior leaders who, are struggling with that. 135 00:14:09,855.24106092 --> 00:14:22,271.67416749 it's really hard, like we could chat for a while about why it's hard, the desire in us sometimes the pressure to present as something, the fear of vulnerability. 136 00:14:22,271.67416749 --> 00:14:26,381.67416749 I do think that as pastors we can be more vulnerable than we think. 137 00:14:26,801.67416749 --> 00:14:29,471.67416749 We can be more honest than we often might think. 138 00:14:29,561.67416749 --> 00:14:31,511.67416749 We can even have deeper relationships. 139 00:14:32,21.67416749 --> 00:14:33,821.67416749 But a couple thoughts I would say. 140 00:14:33,821.67416749 --> 00:14:46,790.00750083 One is for any human being to flourish, and this includes a pastor, a ministry leader, you need deep knowing relationships where you can be loved in your whole person. 141 00:14:47,115.00750083 --> 00:14:50,715.00750083 Like where you're not presenting a part of yourself, but you can bring your real broken. 142 00:14:50,715.00750083 --> 00:15:00,195.00750083 And your whole personality into that relationship and feel loved, seen, known, but then also to reciprocate that, to extend that to somebody else. 143 00:15:00,825.00750083 --> 00:15:02,865.00750083 And this isn't just a pastoral problem. 144 00:15:02,865.00750083 --> 00:15:06,555.00750083 I think that as humans, we struggle to have knowing relationships. 145 00:15:06,555.00750083 --> 00:15:13,215.00750083 I think that's part of the fall because there's shame and there's that lingering question, our heart, like if they know the full me will, they really love me. 146 00:15:13,575.00750083 --> 00:15:20,295.00750083 And that's why the gospel is such a powerful force to actually make it possible to have the deep relationships that we need. 147 00:15:21,165.00750083 --> 00:15:32,325.00750083 As I think about almost like a protocol or a rule of life or a pattern for pastors and ministry leaders to follow, I think they, must be honest about their need for friendships. 148 00:15:33,165.00750083 --> 00:15:41,95.00750083 And they must be intentional about identifying the relationships that are those deepest friends, those knowing friends and pursue them. 149 00:15:41,931.67416749 --> 00:15:43,11.67416749 And sometimes. 150 00:15:43,601.67416749 --> 00:15:49,61.67416749 I've heard ministry leaders say those most deep friends cannot be people in your congregation. 151 00:15:50,30.37822497 --> 00:15:52,790.37822497 and maybe I would only add a little bit of nuance to that. 152 00:15:52,880.37822497 --> 00:16:05,300.37822497 I would say that at least some of those friends need to be, people who are not working for you are not necessarily in your congregation in that way. 153 00:16:05,990.37822497 --> 00:16:10,310.37822497 And so I'm not trying to create like unhelpful binaries or walls. 154 00:16:10,550.37822497 --> 00:16:17,210.37822497 I have deep relationships with the pastors I lead with, people in our congregation. 155 00:16:17,747.04489164 --> 00:16:22,337.04489164 But it's essential that I also have deep knowing relationships outside of that. 156 00:16:22,667.04489164 --> 00:16:25,817.04489164 And this is why, because the liability. 157 00:16:26,447.04489164 --> 00:16:29,207.04489164 Of only having those relationships within. 158 00:16:29,447.04489164 --> 00:16:34,967.04489164 There will be moments like, for example, the two guys that I planted the church with are some of my closest friends. 159 00:16:34,967.04489164 --> 00:16:37,877.04489164 One of them is the Jeremy who lives next door. 160 00:16:37,877.04489164 --> 00:16:39,857.04489164 We are deep, friends. 161 00:16:40,67.0448916 --> 00:16:48,797.0448916 But there's moments where what I need to be for him as a colleague, as a pastor, means that I can't show up. 162 00:16:49,277.0448916 --> 00:16:51,167.0448916 It's not a dishonesty, it's not a hiddenness. 163 00:16:51,167.0448916 --> 00:17:00,860.378225 It's like I just can't in this moment come with the weariness or the part of me that needs to just be in a, relationship where there's nothing. 164 00:17:00,860.378225 --> 00:17:07,940.378225 So I need those outside relationships so that I don't put the pressure on those other relationships to be something they cannot be. 165 00:17:08,240.378225 --> 00:17:13,580.378225 So I think it's possible to have those deep relationships, but they need to be complimented by other deep relationships. 166 00:17:13,880.378225 --> 00:17:21,500.378225 Now, all of this means essentially we have to be radically intentional and to identify the part of us that resists it. 167 00:17:22,5.0721025 --> 00:17:30,885.0721025 I have a new kind of habit in my life with a close friend once a week to get on the phone, pray together, do some confession. 168 00:17:31,665.0721025 --> 00:17:45,435.0721025 And I love chatting with this friend, and I love the idea of doing this, but like we do it on Fridays at a certain time in the morning and almost every Friday morning there's a part of me like maybe it's my sin nature. 169 00:17:45,435.0721025 --> 00:17:50,445.0721025 I don't know what it is that almost resists wanting to do that call. 170 00:17:51,105.0721025 --> 00:17:53,175.0721025 And so I think for me, I'll just speak for myself. 171 00:17:53,175.0721025 --> 00:18:04,395.0721025 I have to acknowledge there's a part of me that resists that deep knowing that it feels like effort to show up to a relationship with transparency, with honesty. 172 00:18:04,635.0721025 --> 00:18:16,65.0721025 And so in that moment, my only hope is to have resolved with intentionality that a deep, friendships are a necessity for my life with Jesus, even before my ministry. 173 00:18:16,95.0721025 --> 00:18:17,565.0721025 In Jesus name for my. 174 00:18:17,940.0721025 --> 00:18:26,280.0721025 Life with Jesus that one of the primary ways that we experience his love and transformation is worked out in the context of deep friendships. 175 00:18:26,460.0721025 --> 00:18:44,310.0721025 So it's that intentionality and then thinking about it in a way that says, okay, how can I be open to deep relationships, even within my church, but not fully dependent on those relationships to be everything they can be? And we've all heard stories of a pastor who God leads them out, or the board lets them go. 176 00:18:44,490.0721025 --> 00:18:51,870.0721025 And in that moment, if their whole relational tapestry is removed, now we have a real problem. 177 00:18:52,80.0721025 --> 00:18:53,400.0721025 And so think about that though. 178 00:18:53,760.0721025 --> 00:19:04,20.0721025 If that is consciously or subconsciously the stakes, then all of a sudden the temptation to not be fully honest, to not be fully known, to not increase it. 179 00:19:04,20.0721025 --> 00:19:11,560.0721025 So the way that we can mitigate against that liability is to have an ecology of relationships that are within. 180 00:19:11,950.0721025 --> 00:19:15,160.0721025 The ministry that we lead, but also within the city. 181 00:19:15,160.0721025 --> 00:19:18,10.0721025 And that's why I also really cherish friendships with other pastors. 182 00:19:18,610.0721025 --> 00:19:24,580.0721025 Like one of the things that I just feel like pastors ministry leaders is deep friendships with other people who get it. 183 00:19:25,0.0721025 --> 00:19:35,523.0721025 Like I know that you've done pastoral ministry, so if you say, Jay, how's pastoring the way going? I could say to you like, it's good, yeah. 184 00:19:35,950.0721025 --> 00:19:37,600.0721025 dude, I know it's a lot. 185 00:19:38,80.0721025 --> 00:19:39,610.0721025 And then all of a sudden think about that. 186 00:19:39,610.0721025 --> 00:19:44,800.0721025 We have context that we shared where I feel instantly understood by you. 187 00:19:44,830.0721025 --> 00:19:46,960.0721025 'cause you've carried the same burden that I have. 188 00:19:47,260.0721025 --> 00:19:58,480.0721025 Even though you're in South Africa and I'm Vancouver, I feel like you probably understand some of the burdens I carry more than my Christian buddy who's in finance in the city. 189 00:19:58,480.0721025 --> 00:19:59,470.0721025 He's a deep friend. 190 00:19:59,710.0721025 --> 00:20:01,900.0721025 But you and I in a moment can share something. 191 00:20:02,170.0721025 --> 00:20:09,940.0721025 So I think that one of the bummers is when ministry leaders, like somehow competition or insecurity, stops us from being deep friends within one another. 192 00:20:09,970.0721025 --> 00:20:10,840.0721025 And I'm just like. 193 00:20:11,680.0721025 --> 00:20:23,440.0721025 I think that having friendships with other people in ministry is one of the great gifts and even I would argue part of a healthy rule of life for somebody in pastoral or ministry leadership. 194 00:20:23,647.4054359 --> 00:20:29,767.4054359 I really love the, term that you used was to have an ecology of relationships. 195 00:20:30,637.4054359 --> 00:20:54,518.5173156 And, I love that because, as, our friendships become more diverse, it also makes us more whole and God can use those relationships to refine parts of us that if we just had an echo chamber of people who thought like us and behave like us, and we're, in our own particular ministry sphere God, it, become increasingly more difficult for, God to shape something within us. 196 00:20:54,518.5173156 --> 00:20:57,548.5173156 And I really appreciate that encouragement. 197 00:20:57,548.5173156 --> 00:21:09,638.5173156 And I, want to, maybe dive in to, one of the last points that you made, which had to, which you're speaking about the burden that a pastor carries and, I. 198 00:21:10,65.1839823 --> 00:21:18,575.3303728 Many of those who are listening in or watching, this interview, many are not in local church ministry. 199 00:21:18,605.3303728 --> 00:21:29,985.3303728 We have on the flip side, we do have many pastors who, are listening in as well, but I want to speak specifically for you to share specifically for those parachurch leaders and ministry leaders. 200 00:21:30,255.3303728 --> 00:21:42,81.7307315 Could you share a bit about the weight of, local church leadership you've, experienced what it's like to be outside of, the local church, ministering with alpha, like you've mentioned. 201 00:21:42,431.1651039 --> 00:21:53,471.4984372 how has that been different and, what has surprised you? What surprised you in that transition from parachurch ministry to local church ministry? It is a fun question to reflect on. 202 00:21:53,671.4984372 --> 00:21:54,451.4984372 For context. 203 00:21:54,451.4984372 --> 00:22:00,983.781082 So I worked for Alpha for about 10 years did work with Alpha Canada and then a lot of work with Alpha Global. 204 00:22:00,983.781082 --> 00:22:07,463.781082 So experienced, different listeners would like a localized ministry or an international ministry expression. 205 00:22:07,463.781082 --> 00:22:11,633.781082 And there's, different challenges that come with each of those. 206 00:22:12,863.781082 --> 00:22:15,983.781082 And, all the while I was working in a local church. 207 00:22:15,983.781082 --> 00:22:28,793.781082 So my story has been not bi-vocational in the typical way it's used, but like often for most of my ministry life, working part-time in a local church and part-time in a ministry space. 208 00:22:28,793.781082 --> 00:22:30,653.781082 You're using language a parachurch. 209 00:22:31,30.7219917 --> 00:22:35,740.7219917 and there is a distinct difference when I transitioned into this. 210 00:22:35,800.7219917 --> 00:22:39,250.7219917 I'm a lead pastor, this is my full-time work in a place. 211 00:22:40,30.7219917 --> 00:22:44,414.055325 And I think one of the, there's a lot of reflections. 212 00:22:45,172.3886584 --> 00:22:48,232.3886584 Maybe I'll just name one or two and then you can decide if we want to dig deeper. 213 00:22:48,232.3886584 --> 00:22:54,352.3886584 But one of them for sure that I felt is the ability to rest from the work. 214 00:22:55,175.7219917 --> 00:23:04,505.7219917 And so there's something about the nature of the local church that is this living and act of force within a place. 215 00:23:04,895.7219917 --> 00:23:12,455.7219917 You can talk about the programs and Sunday mornings and whatever the collection of expressions of a local church is, but that's not the local church. 216 00:23:12,455.7219917 --> 00:23:18,515.7219917 The local church is this interconnected web of relationships that are at work within a place. 217 00:23:18,515.7219917 --> 00:23:22,865.7219917 This different degrees of knowing and somehow in God's design. 218 00:23:23,480.7219917 --> 00:23:30,230.7219917 There's pastoral leadership and there's these programs that support it and a theology and all these different things that are at work. 219 00:23:30,230.7219917 --> 00:23:37,340.7219917 But ultimately it's this interconnected web of relationships that's pressed into a city, which is the context in which God is working. 220 00:23:37,730.7219917 --> 00:23:47,900.7219917 And so for me, what was really interesting is a couple years in, I found myself realizing for the first time that I need to leave this city to find a certain kind of rest. 221 00:23:48,847.3886584 --> 00:23:54,367.3886584 and I had to really reflect on it 'cause it would be like, and I realized that this is the city that I pray for. 222 00:23:55,87.3886584 --> 00:23:57,607.3886584 These are the people that I'm called to. 223 00:23:58,477.3886584 --> 00:24:04,897.3886584 And even on a Sabbath day, and I believe you can have effective Sabbath without having to leave the city, don't get me wrong. 224 00:24:05,347.3886584 --> 00:24:14,167.3886584 But even on that Sabbath day, as I'm walking down the street, maybe even going to my favorite coffee shop to have a like to, do a Sabbath type thing. 225 00:24:14,737.3886584 --> 00:24:18,397.3886584 I'm walking past the needs in the city that we're praying for. 226 00:24:18,457.3886584 --> 00:24:21,667.3886584 I'm running into people that I love and I'm burdened for. 227 00:24:22,657.3886584 --> 00:24:29,347.3886584 And you can find yourself realizing, in a sense, and I know that all this could be, I hope people hear my heart. 228 00:24:30,187.3886584 --> 00:24:32,707.3886584 You can walk to an office and you can leave an office. 229 00:24:33,157.3886584 --> 00:24:46,327.3886584 But if your ministry context is a place, and I'm sure missionaries feel the same way, but with Alpha, our context was the whole of Canada resourcing churches or this global mandate. 230 00:24:46,657.3886584 --> 00:24:49,297.3886584 And though my burden, you can't just ignore a burden. 231 00:24:49,567.3886584 --> 00:24:52,297.3886584 particularly for me, it was seeing young people come to know Jesus. 232 00:24:52,327.3886584 --> 00:25:01,27.3886584 You can't just turn that off, but I could come into my home or come in and, and rest from that work in a meaningful way. 233 00:25:01,837.3886584 --> 00:25:03,67.3886584 so that's one of the real challenges. 234 00:25:03,67.3886584 --> 00:25:10,27.3886584 The other challenge is, the sheer nature of the job being so eclectic. 235 00:25:10,597.3886584 --> 00:25:18,697.3886584 And part of that's fun for a wiring like me, like I'm really drawn to the eclectic nature, but the task is so uniquely challenging in the sense that. 236 00:25:19,537.3886584 --> 00:25:22,777.3886584 Maybe you're a minister in the word, you're preaching sermons. 237 00:25:22,777.3886584 --> 00:25:29,977.3886584 So you need to be a word worker, understand the theology, but then you're also need to understand the culture that you're speaking to and how to make that known. 238 00:25:30,517.3886584 --> 00:25:35,47.3886584 But then you're also with people walking them through their discipleship journey. 239 00:25:35,47.3886584 --> 00:25:36,727.3886584 So you're also a spiritual director. 240 00:25:37,27.3886584 --> 00:25:38,947.3886584 You're also helping them process their pain. 241 00:25:38,947.3886584 --> 00:25:41,197.3886584 So you're also, not a counselor. 242 00:25:41,407.3886584 --> 00:25:46,147.3886584 I, don't wanna diminish that unique training and skill, but you're doing some of that work, but you're also an administrator. 243 00:25:46,727.3886584 --> 00:25:51,407.3886584 It's funny, we talk about shepherding as a metaphor for pastors and we're always like, oh, it's so tender and soft. 244 00:25:51,557.3886584 --> 00:25:53,987.3886584 No, the shepherd was like, hard work. 245 00:25:53,987.3886584 --> 00:25:55,577.3886584 It was like laborious. 246 00:25:55,577.3886584 --> 00:25:58,217.3886584 And it was, there was detail and there was a need for. 247 00:25:58,712.3886584 --> 00:26:01,262.3886584 Planning an order and it was messy and dirty. 248 00:26:01,262.3886584 --> 00:26:05,552.3886584 And so there's all, there's this administration, there's this leadership, there's this organization. 249 00:26:05,612.3886584 --> 00:26:10,652.3886584 And then on top of that, there's expectations that are a moving target from people. 250 00:26:10,772.3886584 --> 00:26:12,932.3886584 There's the missional challenges of your city. 251 00:26:13,172.3886584 --> 00:26:15,842.3886584 The church where we have is at the intersection. 252 00:26:15,962.3886584 --> 00:26:20,342.3886584 The building that we, one of the buildings we gather is an intersection of a ton of different cities. 253 00:26:20,432.3886584 --> 00:26:24,92.3886584 If you look left, you're aware of the mental health and opioid crisis. 254 00:26:24,212.3886584 --> 00:26:28,442.3886584 If you look right, you're aware of all the new immigrants coming to city. 255 00:26:28,442.3886584 --> 00:26:32,192.3886584 If you look straight ahead, young families trying to make a way in this city. 256 00:26:32,192.3886584 --> 00:26:35,492.3886584 And all of those reflect different needs and opportunities. 257 00:26:35,492.3886584 --> 00:26:46,149.055325 And so we could keep going and going and going and you can find yourself saying I cannot do enough preparation or study or have enough hours to actually cover all of that. 258 00:26:46,179.055325 --> 00:26:53,814.055325 And that's where I come back to this idea of First, I need to understand my identity in Christ, and then I need to understand, have a vision of the body of Christ. 259 00:26:53,814.055325 --> 00:27:06,954.055325 So the burden of the pastors not to be all things, but we do have, at least in our context, like I can't speak for others, but a western evangelical context and expectation that the pastor would have all the answers and all the gifts and all the skills. 260 00:27:07,14.055325 --> 00:27:14,664.055325 And no matter how much you've come to grips with that, the crushing burden is standing before a congregation that often wants you to be all those things. 261 00:27:15,534.055325 --> 00:27:19,644.055325 and, and so it, it's an incredible challenge. 262 00:27:20,349.1602708 --> 00:27:21,279.1602708 and it's weighty. 263 00:27:22,29.1602708 --> 00:27:34,749.1602708 and then part of it, like sometimes people ask me like, how's ministry going? How's the local church? And when there's no crisis, like there's no like staff crisis or there's no administrative crisis. 264 00:27:34,869.1602708 --> 00:27:40,989.1602708 Do you know what the hardest part is? Even during all that? It's walking with people who are suffering. 265 00:27:41,949.1602708 --> 00:27:43,569.1602708 Like life is just so brutal. 266 00:27:44,230.8269374 --> 00:28:00,190.8269374 Like you can't have a community over 25 people where in any given week there isn't somebody whose own sin is unraveling their life or who's got a health diagnosis or the sin of others have hurt them. 267 00:28:00,730.8269374 --> 00:28:16,587.4936041 And when you enter into that, your co grieving and walking with those that are grieving, and to be present to that while also trying to fulfill the leadership responsibilities is an incredible task. 268 00:28:17,197.4936041 --> 00:28:20,617.4936041 I think some of the challenge is human imposed. 269 00:28:21,247.4936041 --> 00:28:28,627.4936041 Like we, we as Christian communities can do better by pastors put reasonable expectations, allowed them to be human. 270 00:28:29,647.4936041 --> 00:28:31,627.4936041 think part of it though is God's design. 271 00:28:32,527.4936041 --> 00:28:36,944.4326841 somehow in ministry we do share in the suffering of Jesus. 272 00:28:37,527.7239191 --> 00:28:42,254.3644547 And that we carry but in the way that Paul talks about sharing the suffering with Christ. 273 00:28:42,494.3644547 --> 00:28:56,996.2304963 So part of this is human imposed, but part of this I think God's design to form us, transform us long for his coming, his return, and the renewal of all things. 274 00:28:57,442.897163 --> 00:28:58,42.897163 I'll stop there. 275 00:28:58,991.0638297 --> 00:29:17,81.0638297 I think you, you've done all pastors a really great service by just sharing the burden and the, expectations that, that people hold and, the emotional whiplash that, I think many, pastor's experience. 276 00:29:17,421.0638297 --> 00:29:28,371.0638297 I'm really hoping that, those who are listening in that, that aren't pastors in local church that they're beginning to get a greater sense of what it's like to be on the other side of the pulpit. 277 00:29:28,977.7304963 --> 00:29:39,777.7304963 how as a local church pastor speak to those ministry leaders who aren't pastors, how can they better. 278 00:29:40,632.7304963 --> 00:29:59,527.4032326 Come alongside their local church pastors, how can they support them? What would you appreciate ministry leaders within your own congregation that aren't ministering to your congregation? at our church here in Vancouver, there's probably, I don't want to exaggerate 20 or 30. 279 00:30:00,302.4032326 --> 00:30:03,182.4032326 Nonprofit Christian ministry leaders in our church. 280 00:30:03,182.4032326 --> 00:30:04,922.4032326 So just people. 281 00:30:04,922.4032326 --> 00:30:13,322.4032326 And there's probably more, but like that I know of that are raising support, have a particular burden or cause who work for a local or national or international ministry. 282 00:30:13,652.4032326 --> 00:30:17,192.4032326 And my experience of these men and women is very positive. 283 00:30:17,922.4032326 --> 00:30:19,182.4032326 I thank God for them. 284 00:30:19,872.4032326 --> 00:30:28,632.4032326 I hope deeply that they know that I value and respect their work and I'm so thankful for their yes to that cause. 285 00:30:28,932.4032326 --> 00:30:49,572.4032326 And I hope that in some way my preaching of the gospel and the story of God unfolding and our ministry in the church and prayer ministry and the community, strengthen them, strengthens them, gives meaning to their work, reminds them that what they're doing, that toiling and longing for the inbreaking of the kingdom that like it's worthwhile. 286 00:30:49,992.4032326 --> 00:30:55,287.4032326 And I definitely don't think Pastors are the only ones with a hard job. 287 00:30:55,377.4032326 --> 00:31:03,807.4032326 I don't think anyone, I don't know anyone that doesn't have a hard job and people in ministry, leadership spaces, it's very difficult, very challenging. 288 00:31:03,807.4032326 --> 00:31:05,487.4032326 Some that are similar, some that are different. 289 00:31:05,718.0564598 --> 00:31:10,295.2654975 How can they help? I think just the willingness to be part of the church. 290 00:31:10,825.2654975 --> 00:31:18,265.2654975 I know that when I was with Alpha and doing other ministries and I was doing a lot of itinerant preaching, I struggled to just be part of a church. 291 00:31:19,75.2654975 --> 00:31:24,205.2654975 I was and I'll just speak for myself, I was a professional adjudicator of churches. 292 00:31:25,265.2654975 --> 00:31:33,385.2654975 I was in a ministry space, so I had like convictions and I think about ministry and I think about the structure of the sermon and the ministry programming. 293 00:31:33,385.2654975 --> 00:31:36,595.2654975 And then I'm exposed to great churches around the world. 294 00:31:36,595.2654975 --> 00:31:40,879.2931852 So now I'm holding our local church that I was attending. 295 00:31:41,374.2931852 --> 00:31:44,224.2931852 Up and against all these and just struggling to be a part of it. 296 00:31:44,224.2931852 --> 00:31:45,784.2931852 Struggled to not be a critic of it. 297 00:31:46,264.2931852 --> 00:31:56,764.2931852 And, I think so I think that I don't think anyone listening would be critical of their local church, but just in case there are some, I think just going, Hey, I wanna be part of this. 298 00:31:56,824.2931852 --> 00:32:00,574.2931852 I'm gonna be part of a small group community even though I travel lots and it's hard. 299 00:32:01,164.2931852 --> 00:32:12,224.2931852 I'm gonna be a disciple who receives prayer and gives prayer, who participates? and then I think there's some interesting conversations that we could have. 300 00:32:12,254.2931852 --> 00:32:21,865.4506375 Like for example, when I was in youth ministry, so I was doing national youth ministry, guess what, my biggest burden was youth work. 301 00:32:22,630.4506375 --> 00:32:26,380.4506375 I woke up every morning being like, God, reach youth, gotta reach youth. 302 00:32:27,310.4506375 --> 00:32:29,620.4506375 And, then when I was with, Alpha, it's like evangelism. 303 00:32:29,620.4506375 --> 00:32:31,420.4506375 The local church needs to do evangelism. 304 00:32:32,80.4506375 --> 00:32:41,530.4506375 And my friend who works in mercy and justice space, what's his burden? The church must be a witness in that space. 305 00:32:41,530.4506375 --> 00:32:50,290.4506375 They must advocate for those on the margin, And, by God's design, he places unique convictions and burdens. 306 00:32:50,470.4506375 --> 00:32:51,670.4506375 Now, here's the challenge. 307 00:32:52,177.1173041 --> 00:32:53,617.1173041 and this isn't just ministry leaders. 308 00:32:53,737.1173041 --> 00:33:01,297.1173041 Individuals in the congregation want the pastor or the church to value that ministry as much as you do. 309 00:33:02,73.7839708 --> 00:33:05,853.7839708 And so it can be disorienting for a ministry leader to go, hey to their church. 310 00:33:06,3.7839708 --> 00:33:15,303.7839708 do you value evangelism as much as I do? And what's been really humbling for me as a lead pastor is I wanted to vow to be the lead pastor that was like. 311 00:33:15,798.7839708 --> 00:33:18,858.7839708 All in for Alpha and all in for our youth ministry. 312 00:33:19,128.7839708 --> 00:33:31,398.7839708 But here's the problem, youth group and Alpha are both on Thursday night and I don't even know if I could do another evening of the week and still be a decent father and husband. 313 00:33:32,148.7839708 --> 00:33:34,38.7839708 And so all of a sudden I was faced with this reality. 314 00:33:34,38.7839708 --> 00:33:46,742.1173041 I deeply value these ministries within my church, but I cannot show up for each of them with the kind of passion that the person who's leading that ministry has. 315 00:33:46,742.1173041 --> 00:33:50,252.1173041 And the same is with the ministries we support the ministries we partner with in the city. 316 00:33:50,612.1173041 --> 00:34:07,832.1173041 It's really common for somebody to say, can the church support this or can they be involved with this? And if we were to say a kind no, or if we were to say yes, but not in the degree that they would like, they can feel like what we're communicating is that we don't care. 317 00:34:08,447.1173041 --> 00:34:10,97.1173041 But that's not the story at all. 318 00:34:10,337.1173041 --> 00:34:18,497.1173041 Often what that is just the human limitation that a single church family can't champion any and everything at all the time. 319 00:34:18,647.1173041 --> 00:34:29,177.1173041 And so I think there's just a sense of going, Hey, I understand that anyone who's in a ministry needs to be in a church, that there's a philosophical alignment of theological alignment and even a values alignment. 320 00:34:29,537.1173041 --> 00:34:40,117.1173041 But to understand that for that pastor or for those elders or that team you might feel at times like they don't see and value your work to the degree you want or champion it. 321 00:34:42,97.1173041 --> 00:34:55,27.1173041 and I understand that could be the case, but often I think it's just the, reality that in any given week, there's probably 60 things that are important in the kingdom of God that our church is touching. 322 00:34:55,477.1173041 --> 00:35:02,437.1173041 And my, responsibility as a shepherd leader is to create, like we said, an ecology that can. 323 00:35:03,367.1173041 --> 00:35:28,577.4465227 Affect and touch all these different things in very different ways, but not for it to overindex on one over the other and lead a church to oscillate from one thing to another, And I think that for a ministry leader to have a sense of going, and maybe it's the benefit of the doubt, maybe it's a an awareness of like my unique burden and calling, isn't shared to the same degree as everyone. 324 00:35:29,270.5756265 --> 00:35:30,140.5756265 maybe I skipped over. 325 00:35:30,140.5756265 --> 00:35:36,950.5756265 A really practical thing is just to encourage and support to say, Hey, thanks for what you're doing. 326 00:35:37,70.5756265 --> 00:35:37,760.5756265 I get it. 327 00:35:38,90.5756265 --> 00:35:39,590.5756265 I don't get all of it, but I get it. 328 00:35:40,273.9089599 --> 00:35:53,319.9545296 do you think? I think that what you're touching on is, really helpful because just like you say, we, when God places that conviction in our hearts and minds, it, becomes, it. 329 00:35:53,319.9545296 --> 00:35:54,279.9545296 It's part of the call. 330 00:35:54,279.9545296 --> 00:35:56,499.9545296 It's part of what God is inviting us into. 331 00:35:57,9.9545296 --> 00:36:06,23.2878629 And as you were talking, I, just got that picture of the body of Christ and how the hand cannot say, to, to the eye, I do not need you. 332 00:36:06,113.2878629 --> 00:36:09,113.2878629 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I do not need you. 333 00:36:09,143.2878629 --> 00:36:10,283.2878629 We need each other. 334 00:36:11,3.2878629 --> 00:36:13,43.2878629 The, hand needs the eye in order to guide it. 335 00:36:13,163.2878629 --> 00:36:17,63.2878629 And, the, eye needs the hand to do what it can do. 336 00:36:17,63.2878629 --> 00:36:32,873.2878629 And I think that often when it comes to, and, I can speak from my own experience as a local church pastor, the, tension I felt with many of the Parachurch leaders is they wanted us to do exactly what they were called to do. 337 00:36:33,743.2878629 --> 00:36:38,393.2878629 And, I really appreciate the way that, that you have navigated this conversation. 338 00:36:38,783.2878629 --> 00:36:43,733.2878629 What I would love to hear from you is, advice to the local church pastor. 339 00:36:43,943.2878629 --> 00:37:01,686.6676052 So how, what advice would you have for that local church leader who does have those 20 or so leaders likely within their, congregation, that have got these, and you, mentioned even our own congregants, they have the convic convictions that God has placed on their lives. 340 00:37:02,406.6676052 --> 00:37:15,830.0714391 What advice do you have for those local pastors who have these leaders who are passionate? and maybe it's more intention, than anything else, but what advice would you have for them in order to, lead them and be their shepherd? I. 341 00:37:16,227.0714391 --> 00:37:18,867.0714391 I have a mentor called Daryl Johnson. 342 00:37:19,77.0714391 --> 00:37:25,480.0809015 He's a pastor, theologian and, he's part of our church community. 343 00:37:25,480.0809015 --> 00:37:31,790.0809015 So he's, in his, mid to late seventies and he's pastor for over 50 years. 344 00:37:32,885.0809015 --> 00:37:37,685.0809015 And he never told me to do this, but I learned watching him what he's really good at. 345 00:37:38,235.0809015 --> 00:37:50,325.0809015 he's good at a lot of things, but one thing that I just learned watching him do ministry is he's super good at blessing people with his words, not flattery. 346 00:37:51,165.0809015 --> 00:38:00,975.0809015 if he was with you right now, Jason, he would be quietly paying attention and discerning your unique passions, your unique calling. 347 00:38:01,935.0809015 --> 00:38:13,755.0809015 And like even now as I spend time with you, I hear your burden for the whole family of God, the way that you can uniquely hold the global context in your mind and the intersection of the parachurch and the local church. 348 00:38:13,815.0809015 --> 00:38:15,855.0809015 And I sense your sincere heart. 349 00:38:16,395.0809015 --> 00:38:23,39.2014071 And so I would imagine Darryl would probably say, bless you in your unique call to champion the church and her diversity. 350 00:38:23,489.2014071 --> 00:38:27,89.2014071 And he would be like, wow, it's amazing to see. 351 00:38:27,689.2014071 --> 00:38:35,159.2014071 How you've been uniquely set apart for this task that your story, your gifting and your wiring has led you to this place. 352 00:38:35,789.2014071 --> 00:38:38,549.2014071 And I bless you in Jesus' name in this work. 353 00:38:39,269.2014071 --> 00:38:42,509.2014071 And so I've just watched Darryl do this again and again. 354 00:38:42,569.2014071 --> 00:38:50,369.2014071 And so I'm like, in Canada we have like symbols that go on cars if you're like a learning to drive or a new driver. 355 00:38:50,489.2014071 --> 00:38:55,259.2014071 And so I'm like, I've got that like learner symbol or that new driver symbol on. 356 00:38:55,259.2014071 --> 00:39:04,319.2014071 But I'm just learning as a pastor that one of my responsibilities is to bless, not to flatter not to, it's not people pleasing, but it's to bless. 357 00:39:04,319.2014071 --> 00:39:05,342.5347404 So I'll give you an example. 358 00:39:05,342.5347404 --> 00:39:10,622.5347404 person in our congregation, Disney has an animation studio in Vancouver. 359 00:39:10,622.5347404 --> 00:39:20,132.5347404 And so one lunch he says, would you want to come by for coffee at the studio? And I got to go and you have to sign in and sign an NDA 'cause you might see like projects they're working on. 360 00:39:20,162.5347404 --> 00:39:23,955.8680738 So it's really cool and I'm with him and. 361 00:39:24,900.8680738 --> 00:39:33,360.8680738 I'm asking myself like, what's my job as a pastor? this individual so talented is in a field that I don't understand or know. 362 00:39:33,390.8680738 --> 00:39:35,790.8680738 I don't know how to build animated films. 363 00:39:36,720.8680738 --> 00:39:57,37.5347404 And just quietly with the spirit, as I'm listening to him, I'm saying, God, what can I bless about his unique ministry here? And as soon as you start thinking about that, it's not hard to go, wow, God's placed this individual, giving them unique creative ability and then the leadership to do it within an organization like this. 364 00:39:57,787.5347404 --> 00:40:04,177.5347404 And it must be really hard to navigate the ethical challenges of creating films in a secular organization. 365 00:40:04,627.5347404 --> 00:40:11,347.5347404 It must be really hard at times to know what it feel like, how to be a gospel witness, how to integrate his faith. 366 00:40:12,67.5347404 --> 00:40:20,857.5347404 And so I think blessing sounds like acknowledging the unique call and gifting on that individual's life and blessing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 367 00:40:20,872.5347404 --> 00:40:39,474.0626761 It, to tell them that their work matters and that, and then to pray for them, that God would strengthen them to fight the temptation to just bring advice or moral direction, but to acknowledge that God is, kingdom is unfolding and I don't need to be a broker. 368 00:40:39,474.0626761 --> 00:40:40,674.0626761 This has been so freeing for me. 369 00:40:40,674.0626761 --> 00:40:43,624.0626761 I don't need to be a broker of all the kingdom work happening in the city. 370 00:40:44,499.0626761 --> 00:40:52,119.0626761 Sometimes as a pastor, we feel like the extent of the kingdom of God in a place is the collection of the activities of the church organized. 371 00:40:52,389.0626761 --> 00:40:54,549.0626761 But that is like a small fraction of it. 372 00:40:54,549.0626761 --> 00:41:00,999.0626761 It's important, but the kingdom of God is the church scattered across the city, pressed in all of these different ways. 373 00:41:01,479.0626761 --> 00:41:10,89.0626761 And the unique call of a pastor is to bless and to preach the word of God that brings meaning and guidance to that work, but to bless that work. 374 00:41:10,89.0626761 --> 00:41:29,199.0626761 And so I think the be the advice I want to give is if there's people in your church who are called to unique spaces, whether it's mercy, justice, global missions, advocacy, working with the next generation is to bless and to pray for and to fight the temptation to need to be a broker of it, but to bless their unique work. 375 00:41:29,799.0626761 --> 00:41:37,389.0626761 And then the other advice I would give is maybe, more just for people with my personality type, is I'm a people pleaser. 376 00:41:38,349.0626761 --> 00:41:47,859.0626761 So essentially like Jason, if you come and you say, here's the work I'm doing, I'm tempted to, to want to say words like, we're all in. 377 00:41:48,729.0626761 --> 00:41:52,599.0626761 What can we do to support you? And, I think that can be sincere. 378 00:41:53,54.2942251 --> 00:41:56,384.2942251 but I might not be able to follow through with that promise or that invitation. 379 00:41:56,474.2942251 --> 00:42:05,894.2942251 So I think part of it is actually the way that healthy relationships can thrive long term is not creating expectations that you can't follow through with. 380 00:42:06,434.2942251 --> 00:42:12,134.2942251 And so this sounds counterintuitive because I'm the kind of guy that wants to bless ministries in our church, see them thrive. 381 00:42:12,134.2942251 --> 00:42:17,564.2942251 See, but I have to also fight the temptation to say, oh, whatever you do, we're all in. 382 00:42:18,254.2942251 --> 00:42:24,914.2942251 cause I can't, I'm just not even organized enough to lead our church to be all in on 25 things. 383 00:42:24,914.2942251 --> 00:42:25,844.2942251 I couldn't do that. 384 00:42:26,174.2942251 --> 00:42:27,674.2942251 30 things, a hundred things. 385 00:42:28,274.2942251 --> 00:42:35,354.2942251 And so I, find myself needing to commit again and again to an ecclesiology and a theology. 386 00:42:35,744.2942251 --> 00:42:44,294.2942251 That the church organized is not the primary expression of the church's impact in the kingdom work in a city or country or in the world. 387 00:42:44,594.2942251 --> 00:42:51,314.2942251 And so that I can bless and that we don't have to organizationally participate in any and every piece. 388 00:42:51,344.2942251 --> 00:42:54,884.2942251 And sometimes that means disappointing you a little bit. 389 00:42:55,244.2942251 --> 00:43:01,364.2942251 'cause you could imagine like maybe you go, Hey, would the Wade Church ever support the work we're doing? Of, course, I'd love that, but I might have to go. 390 00:43:01,364.2942251 --> 00:43:07,931.0075041 You know what, like we work with a team to think about the ministries that we support and we review them every year. 391 00:43:08,378.2445679 --> 00:43:14,708.2445679 and unfortunately there's a lot of good ministries that we just can't support to the degree that we even want to because we want to do it in a thoughtful way. 392 00:43:15,248.2445679 --> 00:43:18,788.2445679 And so I really want you to know with my whole heart that I believe in what you do and I care. 393 00:43:19,432.129078 --> 00:43:22,972.129078 but we're gonna have to go on a journey over maybe even years. 394 00:43:23,347.129078 --> 00:43:34,987.129078 Of finding different ways that we might be able to cross pollinate and collaborate, and in that moment, that might feel a little disappointing, but there's an honesty there that it can actually set the stage to healthy relationship and collaboration. 395 00:43:35,617.129078 --> 00:43:45,403.4624113 Does that make any sense to you, Jason? Anything you would add to that? Yeah, no, I'm just reflecting as an eldership in our church, we, had to process the same questions of ministry leaders. 396 00:43:46,49.092707 --> 00:43:57,205.9136615 Who do we support? How do we support them at, what, in what extent do we support them? And, I really I really resonated that statement of being a blessing to them. 397 00:43:57,265.9136615 --> 00:44:20,175.9136615 So like speaking blessing over them, recognizing the blessing that they are, but also, the, challenge as well is the goal, isn't the church organized? And just like you were saying, and I think that's a beautiful, there's freedom in, in that statement for, the local church pastor there as well, because it almost feels like you have to be organized, you have to be perfect. 398 00:44:20,575.9136615 --> 00:44:23,369.2469948 but that's not the call of Christ on, your church. 399 00:44:23,471.1514497 --> 00:44:23,740.984783 yeah. 400 00:44:23,807.984783 --> 00:44:26,545.984783 come from a super sacramental tradition, but I. 401 00:44:26,717.984783 --> 00:44:29,417.984783 practice communion every week at our church. 402 00:44:29,785.984783 --> 00:44:30,25.984783 Yeah. 403 00:44:30,317.984783 --> 00:44:52,987.984783 And, I hope I'm in good theological territory here as I say this, but I often think about this moment in the week as a symbol of one of the things that we do as a church is invite everybody to that table to receive this profound expression of grace and mercy and power from Jesus. 404 00:44:52,987.984783 --> 00:44:55,837.984783 And I know that the local church is a lot more than just serve communion. 405 00:44:56,317.984783 --> 00:45:01,177.984783 But in that moment I'm reminded like everyone here is invited to the table. 406 00:45:01,417.984783 --> 00:45:20,723.2165354 And if it's a church of 50 or a thousand, when I say I get to, we have teams that do it, but we serve it to somebody and we say, this is the body of Christ given for you, the blood of Jesus, the promise of the new covenant in his blood and that, and the other things that a local church can do. 407 00:45:21,203.2165354 --> 00:45:29,903.2165354 It's acknowledging this is one of the unique things that I can do for every person in our congregation is serve them this unique gift of grace. 408 00:45:31,253.2165354 --> 00:45:34,583.2165354 And, then I acknowledge that there's a lot of things that we will not be doing. 409 00:45:35,283.2165354 --> 00:45:45,993.2165354 And all those ministry leaders and all the small group leaders and all the bums and dads and office managers and teachers and artists and baristas, everyone gets to come and receive that. 410 00:45:46,773.2165354 --> 00:45:47,638.2165354 And I've just really. 411 00:45:48,708.2165354 --> 00:45:51,738.2165354 Found myself, and I'm struggling to even explain it now. 412 00:45:51,738.2165354 --> 00:45:58,548.2165354 Just finding great delight in the unique privilege of inviting people to that table. 413 00:45:59,208.2165354 --> 00:46:04,604.8832021 And, somehow for me, that's a shift in thinking about pastoral ministry. 414 00:46:04,604.8832021 --> 00:46:11,234.8832021 I think I came from a, an imagination where it was really about designing the programs, building the ministry strategy. 415 00:46:11,234.8832021 --> 00:46:21,524.8832021 And I think subconsciously I believed that the evangelistic force or the discipleship force of the local church are the ministries that I'm leading. 416 00:46:22,124.8832021 --> 00:46:33,764.8832021 And I think more and more I'm being won over and convinced that it's a lot more this wild kingdom of God ecology that we've been talking about, unfolding in the city, this interconnected web of relationships. 417 00:46:34,64.8832021 --> 00:46:45,39.8832021 But it doesn't diminish the unique call and power of the pastoral office and the local church to, among other things, preach the word of God. 418 00:46:45,929.8832021 --> 00:46:55,559.8832021 Pray for people come alongside, even bring correction at times in a Godly way, and to serve and invite people to the table. 419 00:46:55,559.8832021 --> 00:47:13,679.8832021 It's an incredible honor and it's freeing to release the other things to say, God, can you use these unique things that you've invited us to do to nourish the work of the kingdom in this city? And I entrust the outcomes to you. 420 00:47:14,58.7282154 --> 00:47:22,785.153736 Jason, this, time has been so rich and we haven't even touched on most of the questions that we're prepared for this interview. 421 00:47:23,730.153736 --> 00:47:34,170.153736 Before we, we do close off, one thing I do want to speak about and give you the opportunity to speak into and share with our audience is your work with the pastorate. 422 00:47:34,450.153736 --> 00:47:42,280.153736 Because for me that's a really exciting initiative that I know that many who are listening will be interested in if they haven't heard of it yet. 423 00:47:42,370.153736 --> 00:47:50,500.153736 And could you just, I'm gonna give you an opportunity to, share what your work is with the pastorate and, what your heart is and your vision. 424 00:47:50,855.4870693 --> 00:47:55,505.4870693 Our passion is seeing transformation for us in Canada. 425 00:47:55,695.4870693 --> 00:47:57,675.4870693 this can translate to anyone listening in any country. 426 00:47:57,675.4870693 --> 00:48:09,315.4870693 And we really believe with our whole heart that local churches flourishing, dynamic, caught up in the way of Jesus filled with the spirit alive to him. 427 00:48:09,315.4870693 --> 00:48:21,128.8204026 Local churches are our best shot at transformed communities in Canada, and if we want to see healthy, vibrant churches, we need to see healthy, vibrant pastors. 428 00:48:21,338.8204026 --> 00:48:26,828.8204026 that's our working theory of change is we feel like, we're talking about people's burdens and passions. 429 00:48:26,828.8204026 --> 00:48:51,94.4893369 The thing I'm waking up most mornings is going, and the team at the pastorate that I get to work with is how can we strengthen pastors? How can we strengthen pastors? How can we strengthen pastors? And what we've learned is though there's need for skill development, like learning theology, learning to preach, learning to run a staff, like there's need for that. 430 00:48:51,544.4893369 --> 00:49:01,547.8226702 Those things alone don't make flourishing pastors there's lots of resource that helps with the craft and I think it's important to work on the craft of pastoring. 431 00:49:02,117.8226702 --> 00:49:14,780.4616492 But there's these other factors like character and calling and emotional health and relational health like we've been talking about, and personal vitality in their life with Jesus and, their self-awareness. 432 00:49:14,780.4616492 --> 00:49:27,800.4616492 And so we think a lot about the heart of pastors and what we could do to help connect pastors with one another and then create environments where they can be encouraged towards a deep life with God. 433 00:49:28,220.4616492 --> 00:49:31,640.4616492 And a growing emotional health and heart health. 434 00:49:32,450.4616492 --> 00:49:35,990.4616492 And we have a couple initiatives towards those ends. 435 00:49:36,570.4616492 --> 00:49:52,620.4616492 one of the things we enjoy the most is we do these year and a half long cohort experiences for pastors that they can join in smaller groups, that journey together over a long period of time, that gather in person and have unique voices that speak to them. 436 00:49:52,620.4616492 --> 00:50:07,500.4616492 But the beautiful thing is a depth of relationship and intentionally moving through spheres of dialogue and ministry with one another that can cause them to come alive in their calling and deepen their life with Christ and experience those friendships we're talking about. 437 00:50:07,950.4616492 --> 00:50:13,260.4616492 So we do those and then we do retreats for pastors and do some resources for pastors. 438 00:50:13,260.4616492 --> 00:50:19,680.4616492 And we have a podcast for pastors that we hope that when pastors listen, they just go, oh, good, I'm not alone. 439 00:50:20,190.4616492 --> 00:50:24,60.4616492 The other thing that I feel like we're trying to do is something that's uniquely Canadian. 440 00:50:25,110.4616492 --> 00:50:29,400.4616492 And I really welcome anyone listening from any other country to listen in on our work. 441 00:50:29,400.4616492 --> 00:50:58,493.7949825 But we're unapologetically trying to be distinctly Canadian because one of the things is that isolation we're talking about, we can feel like we're, wherever you're listening from, it can feel like, where are my brothers and sisters that I'm running with? And one of the gifts by doing something that's distinctly Canadian is we can profile and tell the story of pastors who would never otherwise be heard of, who are in, up in the high North or on a remote island or small town. 442 00:50:59,3.7949825 --> 00:51:02,723.7949825 And to hear their story and to go, wow, that's so unique. 443 00:51:02,723.7949825 --> 00:51:03,743.7949825 That calling that's so unique. 444 00:51:03,743.7949825 --> 00:51:12,323.7949825 But then also to hear, wow, like even though my sister is pastoring in such a unique place and different place, I share so much in common. 445 00:51:12,563.7949825 --> 00:51:16,853.7949825 And as we're telling these stories, what we're trying to do is boast. 446 00:51:17,543.7949825 --> 00:51:27,233.7949825 In God and his church in our country to create a sense of healthy identity, that we're part of something bigger than ourselves, that the church is very much alive. 447 00:51:27,533.7949825 --> 00:51:31,613.7949825 And to shed a light on what the pastoral vocation is. 448 00:51:32,3.7949825 --> 00:51:34,583.7949825 I do think we have an identity crisis as pastors. 449 00:51:34,613.7949825 --> 00:51:41,843.7949825 Are we organizational leaders? There's so much conversation about church leadership and that's, helpful dialogue. 450 00:51:41,963.7949825 --> 00:51:43,403.7949825 But I'm not a leader first. 451 00:51:43,403.7949825 --> 00:51:47,453.7949825 I'm a pastor part of Pastoring's leadership, but I'm not a leader first. 452 00:51:47,453.7949825 --> 00:51:48,113.7949825 I'm a pastor. 453 00:51:48,113.7949825 --> 00:51:49,313.7949825 That's a unique calling. 454 00:51:49,643.7949825 --> 00:51:51,23.7949825 That's unique vocation. 455 00:51:51,113.7949825 --> 00:52:02,353.7949825 And so to create a gathering place, literally, and then metaphorically for pastors to come around to have a conversation, what does this mean to pastor today? that's what we're about. 456 00:52:02,683.7949825 --> 00:52:06,193.7949825 And I really appreciate that you would give me a chance to share about it. 457 00:52:06,193.7949825 --> 00:52:07,303.7949825 It's an honor to do it. 458 00:52:07,602.4302231 --> 00:52:09,372.4302231 and I'm really passionate about the work. 459 00:52:09,830.4302231 --> 00:52:10,10.4302231 Yeah. 460 00:52:10,520.4302231 --> 00:52:21,163.7635564 and to be frank, I, was used to listen to the Canadian Church Leaders podcast and then you took it over and obviously it's been, a journey. 461 00:52:21,533.7635564 --> 00:52:25,763.7635564 But it's been such a beautiful resource and helpful resource for me. 462 00:52:26,63.7635564 --> 00:52:41,985.7635564 And I'm still listening in, even though on the podcast you keep saying, this is for Canadian church leaders, I'm like, I'd be the Canadian nor a church leader anymore, but I though, Jason, is I feel like, my favorite preachers are people who preach to their city. 463 00:52:42,585.7635564 --> 00:52:51,945.7635564 So one of the reasons why Tim Keller was so transcendent was because he folk, like he was of a place and spoke to the people in that place. 464 00:52:52,5.7635564 --> 00:53:03,675.7635564 And what was interesting is as he spoke to his context and didn't just generalize but wrote an apologetic and brought the word to his city, something about that became transcendent. 465 00:53:04,65.7635564 --> 00:53:05,475.7635564 And I actually feel like. 466 00:53:06,77.9016978 --> 00:53:19,637.9016978 what I hope for the people of God in our time and why what you're doing is very important is I feel like there's been for the last 50 or however many years, certain center of orbits of Christian content about the local church. 467 00:53:19,697.9016978 --> 00:53:24,77.9016978 And there's been a lot of incredible gifts that have come from particular center of orbits. 468 00:53:24,347.9016978 --> 00:53:43,97.9016978 But I'm very excited about pastors in countries all over the world and ministry leaders all over the world talking thoughtfully about the unique ministry they have in their place for the sake of people outside of that place, learning from it. 469 00:53:43,97.9016978 --> 00:53:56,927.9016978 Like during the pandemic when we weren't able to gather in person, all of a sudden our eyes were looking to parts of the global church who have done church decentralized, who have been forced to be creative. 470 00:53:56,927.9016978 --> 00:54:01,517.9016978 And so all of a sudden the resource is in the global church to learn from. 471 00:54:01,667.9016978 --> 00:54:03,437.9016978 And so it's exciting for me that. 472 00:54:04,37.9016978 --> 00:54:07,877.9016978 The thought that you would listen in and learn from this Canadian conversation. 473 00:54:07,907.9016978 --> 00:54:14,267.9016978 'cause I do think that one of the gifts for me is listening into the conversations from other parts of the world. 474 00:54:14,447.9016978 --> 00:54:26,127.9016978 And there's a unique ministry to me in Canada as I hear about the pastoral challenge in South Africa, or the unique ministry expressions of even the persecuted church. 475 00:54:26,307.9016978 --> 00:54:32,577.9016978 Not that I'm experiencing that, but there is a unique gift of hearing about that unique expression, for example. 476 00:54:32,667.9016978 --> 00:54:39,567.9016978 And so I think that, it's fun for me that people from other countries would enjoy the distinctly Canadian conversation. 477 00:54:39,567.9016978 --> 00:54:40,557.9016978 So there's always a wink on it. 478 00:54:40,557.9016978 --> 00:54:48,447.9016978 Like when we say like Canada can, the wink is, we know that in the data half of our listeners are, I don't know how much it is they're coming from outside. 479 00:54:48,567.9016978 --> 00:54:57,207.9016978 And I think that the gift we can have to those outside is to have the conversation about our time and place and that might help people think about their time and place uniquely. 480 00:54:57,525.9016978 --> 00:55:13,975.9016978 I suppose that's, part of the reason why I really wanted to highlight what you are doing, because I feel like there's so much that the global church, especially those who, and if you're listening in, you're involved in training our pastors and equipping leaders in local context. 481 00:55:13,975.9016978 --> 00:55:17,395.9016978 The pa, the pastorate is something that you should have your eyes on. 482 00:55:17,785.9016978 --> 00:55:20,995.9016978 And, I think there's a lot for us to learn from you. 483 00:55:21,505.9016978 --> 00:55:33,685.9016978 so could you just share, quickly the, places that people can find a little bit more about that organization, your podcast? Just share some resources, ways that people can connect with you and your ministry online. 484 00:55:34,137.9016978 --> 00:55:36,537.9016978 I should have prepared for this, but let's see how I do. 485 00:55:37,77.9016978 --> 00:55:44,577.9016978 I know that on wherever you listen to podcasts, that if you search the pastorate, I think you'll find us. 486 00:55:44,577.9016978 --> 00:55:50,637.9016978 So the pastorate and, if you need to add my name to it, it might help the search. 487 00:55:51,282.9016978 --> 00:55:53,112.9016978 Our website is the pastor.ca. 488 00:55:53,142.9016978 --> 00:55:55,302.9016978 My local church is called The Way Church. 489 00:55:55,392.9016978 --> 00:55:56,472.9016978 It's in Vancouver. 490 00:55:56,892.9016978 --> 00:56:09,319.5683645 And, some of the work that we're doing finds this expression through the Way Church and the Way College which is a local college that we're building to train up ministers for the church in Canada. 491 00:56:09,859.5683645 --> 00:56:18,526.2350312 And, and you probably, if you find me on any social media platforms, it's just a picture of one of my kids and a month later, another picture of one of my kids. 492 00:56:18,926.2350312 --> 00:56:20,456.2350312 But I'm on some of those as well. 493 00:56:20,782.5683645 --> 00:56:21,262.5683645 Wonderful. 494 00:56:21,292.5683645 --> 00:56:21,442.5683645 Okay. 495 00:56:21,442.5683645 --> 00:56:26,212.5683645 I'm gonna be sure to put that into the show notes for those who are listening and who are interested. 496 00:56:26,872.5683645 --> 00:56:29,752.5683645 Chase, this has been such a wonderful conversation. 497 00:56:30,112.5683645 --> 00:56:33,202.5683645 It's, really been a joy to connect with you, to hear your story. 498 00:56:33,682.5683645 --> 00:56:39,712.5683645 Thank you for taking a deep dive into what it's like to be a local church pastor. 499 00:56:40,132.5683645 --> 00:56:47,628.5337159 Are there any final thoughts that you would like to leave with us? we often say pastoring's, like a hard and holy vocation. 500 00:56:48,48.5337159 --> 00:56:51,408.5337159 It, we've talked about the challenges, but it's, a real honor. 501 00:56:52,128.5337159 --> 00:56:58,938.5337159 It's a real joy and, it's just one piece of the family of God. 502 00:56:59,928.5337159 --> 00:57:07,458.5337159 And so I appreciate you letting me share about my experience and the experience of my brother and sisters in pastoral ministry. 503 00:57:07,978.5337159 --> 00:57:15,328.5337159 But what's really given me joy in life right now is just witnessing God's work and his unfolding kingdom in our time. 504 00:57:15,358.5337159 --> 00:57:19,498.5337159 I think this is a wonderful time to be alive in ministry. 505 00:57:19,918.5337159 --> 00:57:21,508.5337159 God is uniquely on the move. 506 00:57:21,568.5337159 --> 00:57:24,388.5337159 He's always on the move, but it's a special time. 507 00:57:24,388.5337159 --> 00:57:30,688.5337159 He's leaning towards us and and it's a real joy. 508 00:57:30,748.5337159 --> 00:57:33,328.5337159 Even in the struggle, there's this real joy. 509 00:57:33,898.5337159 --> 00:57:35,578.5337159 To be part of his kingdom work. 510 00:57:36,388.5337159 --> 00:57:38,415.4452097 And that's, all my last thoughts. 511 00:57:38,631.5337159 --> 00:57:38,961.5337159 Yeah. 512 00:57:39,21.5337159 --> 00:57:39,621.5337159 Wonderful. 513 00:57:39,688.5337159 --> 00:57:40,348.5337159 to be with you, man. 514 00:57:40,348.5337159 --> 00:57:40,851.5337159 Thank Yeah. 515 00:57:40,858.5337159 --> 00:57:41,428.5337159 much. 516 00:57:41,781.5337159 --> 00:57:42,321.5337159 Thank you. 517 00:57:42,321.5337159 --> 00:57:42,501.5337159 Ja. 518 00:57:42,561.5337159 --> 00:58:06,685.2003826 Jason, can I ask you just to, to pray over our audience as we close off? I love to So living God, I pray now that you'd move some of the ideas we've talked about, talking about you and your kingdom, from ideas to an experienced reality in the hearts of each listener, I pay, I pray, by your very present Holy Spirit, you would pour out your love into their hearts. 519 00:58:07,825.2003826 --> 00:58:25,883.5337159 And God, where there's places of discouragement or fear, or hopelessness or lack of imagination, I pray that you would awaken, resurrection, hope, and kingdom curiosity that you would give them eyes to see. 520 00:58:27,483.5337159 --> 00:58:31,863.5337159 The beauty of your kingdom unfolding around us and the gift of knowing you. 521 00:58:32,466.8670492 --> 00:58:39,966.8670492 And God, I pray that you would cause us and lead us into deep relationships where we can give love and receive love. 522 00:58:40,926.8670492 --> 00:58:47,496.8670492 I pray that the story of the isolated ministry leader, the isolated pastor, would not be our story. 523 00:58:48,936.8670492 --> 00:58:50,166.8670492 And we need you to lead us. 524 00:58:50,166.8670492 --> 00:58:51,336.8670492 We need your help. 525 00:58:51,873.5337159 --> 00:59:06,363.5337159 And knowing that this is a very global audience representing your church and her diversity, God, I just thank you so much for the freedom that comes when we find our place in the whole. 526 00:59:06,873.5337159 --> 00:59:12,543.5337159 God, we thank you that what you're doing is so much more expansive and bigger than the thing in front of us. 527 00:59:12,873.5337159 --> 00:59:23,193.5337159 And God, I pray we would find the freedom and joy of putting our hand to the plow with the unique thing that you've called us to and then resting in this deep awareness. 528 00:59:24,373.5337159 --> 00:59:27,783.5337159 that you are at work in ways that we can't even wrap our minds around. 529 00:59:29,583.5337159 --> 00:59:33,783.5337159 I pray all of this in the name of Jesus. 530 00:59:34,333.5337159 --> 00:59:34,783.5337159 Amen. 531 00:59:36,656.5212823 --> 00:59:40,746.5212823 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 532 00:59:41,26.5212823 --> 00:59:46,956.5212823 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 533 00:59:47,445.1438181 --> 00:59:48,245.1438181 Till next week. 534 00:59:48,615.1438181 --> 00:59:49,65.1438181 Cheers.

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