From Insight to Intercession | Jason Mandryk on Global Trends, Strategic Intercession, and the Future of the Church

The global Church is changing—but are our prayers keeping up with its needs?

In this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast, Jason Mandryk, editor of Operation World, joins us for a thought-provoking conversation on the role of strategic, Spirit-led intercession in the age of global change. From his personal calling into prayer mobilization to the intersection of data, mission, and worship, Jason helps us reimagine prayer not as an obligation but as a joyful, global act of partnership with God.

We explore current global trends shaping the Church, the challenges of Western influence, and why now more than ever, believers must pray with insight.

 

🔑 Main Takeaways

• Prayer as Calling and Delight

Jason shares how God called him into a unique blend of prayer, research, and mission—and why prayer is meant to be joyful, not burdensome.

• The Story and Purpose of Operation World

Learn how this powerful prayer tool was birthed in Southern Africa, and how it continues to mobilize believers to pray with focus for every nation on earth.

• Why Data Matters for Intercession

Jason unpacks how information doesn’t replace prayer—it fuels it. When we understand the world, we can pray with greater clarity and compassion.

• Global Trends Every Christian Should Watch

From the growth of the Majority World Church to the rise of hyper-politicized Christianity in the West, Jason highlights trends shaping the Church’s effectiveness.

• Decolonizing Mission and Sharing Ownership

Jason calls for a shift in how Western churches relate to the rest of the world—not as controllers, but as co-laborers learning from others.

🔗 Links & Resources

• 🌐 Operation World – operationworld.org

(includes contact form to connect with Jason or get the prayer Zoom link)

• 📱 Operation World App – Available in app stores, free and updated annually
• 🔍 International Prayer Connect – ipcprayer.org

A global hub for prayer movements and initiatives

• 📘 Books & Authors Mentioned
• Missions and Money by Dr. Jonathan Bonk
• Shaped for Prayer Enjoyment by David Macmillan
• Dominion by Tom Holland
• Reflections from Dallas Willard and Andrew Murray
• 📊 Missions Research – justinlong.org - Mission trends and prayer intelligence
• 🧭 Lausanne’s State of the Great Commission Report - Includes Jason’s paper on Global Aging - https://lausanne.org/report/demographics/global-aging-population

 

Guest Bio Jason Mandryk is the author of the 7th edition of Operation World and helps to lead the Operation World team. He has been serving at the convergence point of the mission, research, and prayer movements for most of the last 25 years. Using data and Scripture to mobilize prayer and mission is his passion. A Canadian/UK dual citizen, Jason has an M.A. in Global Christian Studies from Providence Theological Seminary and currently lives in Seoul, South Korea.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to give you a quick heads up due to some unexpected technical issues during the recording, there are a few moments where the audio quality isn't quite up to our usual standard.

(00:12):
With that said, the conversation with Jason Mandarin is packed with such rich insight and passion for global mission that we knew we had to share it with you.
So thanks for your grace, and more importantly, we hope that you are as encouraged and challenged by Jason's words as we were.
Now, let's jump in. 5 00:00:32,173.535818182 --> 00:00:35,713.535818182 That is one of the most powerful and profound ways of sharing the good news. 6 00:00:35,713.535818182 --> 00:00:35,743.535818182 I. 7 00:00:35,899.23729107 --> 00:00:44,539.23729107 And we even know many examples of people who became believers precisely because they saw the diversity of those who were sharing Jesus with them. 8 00:00:44,749.23729107 --> 00:00:46,668.92462777 It wasn't the white man's religion. 9 00:00:46,668.92462777 --> 00:00:49,338.92462777 It wasn't a form of Western cultural imperialism. 10 00:00:49,578.92462777 --> 00:00:53,243.92462777 It was actually people from diverse backgrounds all loving one another. 11 00:00:54,198.92462777 --> 00:00:55,308.92462777 In the name of Jesus. 12 00:00:55,512.004787351 --> 00:00:57,372.821113882 It was the combination of data uh. 13 00:00:57,478.153825049 --> 00:01:08,98.153825049 Research along with prayer and spirituality along with mission and mobilization, that really, uh, was what captured my, my interest and my passion. 14 00:01:11,375.901462745 --> 00:01:18,305.901462745 Well, welcome to the Lausanne Movement Podcast, for those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 15 00:01:18,465.055747891 --> 00:01:29,790.318253612 My name is Jason Watson, and today on the podcast we are joined by Jason Mandrake from Operation World for a powerful conversation on the importance of the role of data and prayer in global mission. 16 00:01:29,952.977445112 --> 00:01:39,132.977445112 We talk about global trends affecting the church's mission and why prayer should not just be considered a discipline, but a joy and an effective strategy. 17 00:01:39,318.166350593 --> 00:01:46,821.90991732 This episode is gonna challenge you to pray differently, think globally, and engage the world with gospel clarity and humility. 18 00:01:47,151.90991732 --> 00:01:54,261.90991732 And so if you're interested in that, I wanna invite you to grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Jason Mantric. 19 00:01:56,729.84034259 --> 00:01:59,129.84034259 Well, Jason Mandrake, welcome to the podcast. 20 00:01:59,129.84034259 --> 00:02:00,419.84034259 It's great to have you with us today. 21 00:02:00,732.28628216 --> 00:02:01,892.28628216 Yeah, I'm really glad to be here. 22 00:02:02,29.42435264 --> 00:02:02,329.42435264 Yeah. 23 00:02:02,329.42435264 --> 00:02:07,969.42435264 Uh, like I said to you off, off air, um, I've wanted to jump on an interview with you for a while now. 24 00:02:08,299.42435264 --> 00:02:14,929.42435264 Um, the moment I joined Lausanne, I started engaging with Operation World and, uh, praying for the world. 25 00:02:15,144.42435264 --> 00:02:33,834.42435264 And so it's, it's great to finally meet you and it's great to finally engage with you and, and I'm really hoping during our time together we can talk about the power of prayer, but also I know that you are very interested in global analysis and so it'd be really great to jump into some topics that you feel that the church, global church should be paying attention to. 26 00:02:34,649.42435264 --> 00:02:40,649.42435264 I think the best place for us to start today is, of course, connected to prayer and operation world. 27 00:02:40,649.42435264 --> 00:02:51,539.42435264 And so could you kick us off by just sharing a bit about what sparked your, your passion for mobilizing the church in prayer for the nations? Maybe tell us a bit about how you felt. 28 00:02:51,549.42435264 --> 00:02:52,809.42435264 A calling into the space. 29 00:02:52,809.42435264 --> 00:02:53,979.42435264 It's quite a unique space. 30 00:02:54,309.42435264 --> 00:03:01,209.42435264 I think we all feel that calling to pray, but it's, it's quite unique to, to feel like that is your calling to mobilize the church. 31 00:03:01,659.42435264 --> 00:03:05,379.42435264 And so I'd be really interested to hear your, your origin story. 32 00:03:06,123.63168057 --> 00:03:07,983.63168057 Yeah, happy to share that. 33 00:03:08,13.63168057 --> 00:03:11,673.63168057 I was a seminary student in Canada. 34 00:03:12,753.63168057 --> 00:03:18,783.24253446 I knew that the Lord had called me into full-time ministry, but not to be a pastor. 35 00:03:19,503.39516358 --> 00:03:29,488.36232686 never really landed on any clarity about where God might be calling me until one January 30 years ago. 36 00:03:29,488.36232686 --> 00:03:34,228.36232686 Actually, when Patrick Johnstone, who was the founder or the, the first. 37 00:03:34,573.36232686 --> 00:03:43,963.36232686 Author of Operation World came to the my seminary and gave this incredible presentation using old overhead transparencies. 38 00:03:44,23.36232686 --> 00:03:46,933.36232686 That was the technology of the, of the mid nineties. 39 00:03:47,578.36232686 --> 00:04:07,948.36232686 And he, he gave this incredible overarching presentation of the Great Commission and its progress using data and statistics and data visualizations, charts and graphs and maps, but also drawing from scripture, sharing lots of exciting and challenging anecdotes from the field itself. 40 00:04:09,76.42380224 --> 00:04:17,176.42380224 You know, one of those rare life changing experiences, I, I felt God as clearly as ever I've ever encountered the voice of God. 41 00:04:17,431.43186683 --> 00:04:23,743.5116756 this is the ministry that I'm calling you to and, uh, join him in what he's doing and I'll take you from there. 42 00:04:24,487.40656977 --> 00:04:28,537.40656977 and I've been serving with Operation World for most of those 30 years. 43 00:04:29,167.40656977 --> 00:04:31,327.40656977 It was the combination of data, uh. 44 00:04:31,717.40656977 --> 00:04:42,337.40656977 Research along with prayer and spirituality along with mission and mobilization, that really, uh, was what captured my, my interest and my passion. 45 00:04:42,572.40656977 --> 00:04:42,637.01742365 I. 46 00:04:42,937.01742365 --> 00:04:45,37.01742365 Thank you, Jason, for sharing a bit about that. 47 00:04:45,37.01742365 --> 00:05:02,936.97686901 You know, as I reflect on, on my own experience in seminary there are quite a few who head into seminary feeling a call to, to something, something full-time and, and aren't quite sure, you know, whether it's it's the pastoral ministry or its missions. 48 00:05:03,216.97686901 --> 00:05:15,156.97686901 And, and I just think it's fascinating that, that God opened up the opportunity for you to find like a, that rare intersection between data and research and, and mission and prayer. 49 00:05:15,156.97686901 --> 00:05:16,836.97686901 It's, it's quite a unique space. 50 00:05:16,836.97686901 --> 00:05:24,966.97686901 And so could you tell us more, uh, a bit about Operation World? Um, many of those who are listening will know about Operation World, but there may be those who do not. 51 00:05:24,966.97686901 --> 00:05:28,446.97686901 And I think this is a great opportunity for you to share a bit about your ministry. 52 00:05:29,48.1320513 --> 00:05:37,213.1320513 Yeah, operation World began in what is now Zimbabwe, but at the time was called Southern Rhodesia. 53 00:05:38,98.1320513 --> 00:05:48,238.1320513 The Dorothea mission was an organization that was doing evangelism in the the Shanti towns and the townships of Southern Africa in the 1960s. 54 00:05:48,718.1320513 --> 00:05:49,348.1320513 And I. 55 00:05:49,873.1320513 --> 00:05:57,883.1320513 These groups of believers that had been formed through that evangelism, they themselves were gathering together to do weeks of prayer. 56 00:05:58,123.1320513 --> 00:06:06,943.1320513 And this was in the tradition or drawing upon the tradition of Andrew Murray, and he had advocated for at the beginning of the 20th century. 57 00:06:07,603.1320513 --> 00:06:12,853.1320513 But they had a desire not only to pray for their own countries in their own context, but for other places. 58 00:06:13,123.1320513 --> 00:06:18,523.1320513 However, it was pre-internet, it was during apartheid. 59 00:06:19,513.1320513 --> 00:06:26,713.1320513 And therefore they were up against all kinds of sanctions in addition to the prejudices of their own governments. 60 00:06:27,13.1320513 --> 00:06:41,383.1320513 So these African believers asked missionaries, can you put together a resource that will help us to pray for other countries? They didn't know anything about Nepal or Paraguay or, or Latvia, which didn't exist as such at the time. 61 00:06:42,358.1320513 --> 00:06:54,872.46892218 And so a young missionary by the name of Patrick Johnstone put together a little booklet, 32 a four pages, and that was 60 years ago that that, uh, was published for the first time. 62 00:06:55,112.46892218 --> 00:07:00,272.46892218 And that was the beginning of what became the ministry operation World gathering information. 63 00:07:00,782.46892218 --> 00:07:13,460.70623999 In order to inspire Christians to have a heart, for the nations, to pray for the nations, and possibly to go to the nations, in mission, in order to see those nations attacked by the gospels. 64 00:07:14,221.20316034 --> 00:07:20,963.59230645 Uh, since, since its founding, how has Operation World progressed? Uh, where, where are you guys at the moment? Yeah. 65 00:07:20,963.59230645 --> 00:07:23,363.59230645 So, uh, that began in, as I. 66 00:07:23,363.59230645 --> 00:07:24,653.59230645 was saying, in southern Africa. 67 00:07:24,653.59230645 --> 00:07:31,563.59230645 Patrick basically had two cardboard boxes out of the back of his ministry van that functioned as his office. 68 00:07:31,993.59230645 --> 00:07:41,3.59230645 In 1980, he moved to the UK and, and began, to have a physical space at the headquarters of WEC on the fringes of London. 69 00:07:41,513.59230645 --> 00:07:44,873.59230645 And that was where Operation World really grew into its own. 70 00:07:44,873.59230645 --> 00:08:00,456.62841311 It published multiple editions of its flagship, namesake, publication, operation World, now, since that time, we have evolved from being a, a headquarters based ministry to a fully virtual team. 71 00:08:01,116.62841311 --> 00:08:08,76.62841311 And so now our team is, uh, across 17 time zones on four continents in. 72 00:08:09,81.62841311 --> 00:08:15,711.62841311 Nine different countries, and that has all emerged just in the last eight years. 73 00:08:15,711.62841311 --> 00:08:20,691.62841311 So Brexit played a role in that and COVID played a role in that. 74 00:08:20,901.62841311 --> 00:08:23,271.62841311 And others factors as well played a role in that. 75 00:08:23,271.62841311 --> 00:08:25,821.62841311 But now we function as a fully virtual team. 76 00:08:26,181.62841311 --> 00:08:31,221.62841311 We continue to create resources that are research driven. 77 00:08:31,581.62841311 --> 00:08:32,811.62841311 Prayer materials. 78 00:08:33,201.62841311 --> 00:08:40,760.22928108 Our main priority right now is the, uh, creating a new eighth, uh, edition of flagship publication Wow, that's really exciting. 79 00:08:40,790.22928108 --> 00:08:45,770.22928108 I, uh, I did have a question about whether you guys are working on an eighth edition. 80 00:08:46,10.22928108 --> 00:08:54,910.95176053 Do you have any update on when that could potentially be released? I don't want to commit to a specific date because so many things have have changed. 81 00:08:55,150.95176053 --> 00:09:04,270.95176053 We, we would have thought that by now we would have published something, but you know, life happens and things happen to the world to that effect. 82 00:09:04,719.79114165 --> 00:09:07,359.79114165 One's own capacity to produce. 83 00:09:08,19.79114165 --> 00:09:16,179.79114165 We are moving from the stage of gathering information now to the stage of actually compiling it into reports. 84 00:09:16,179.79114165 --> 00:09:23,769.79114165 So the writing process is finally upon us, but it will be at least a couple of years before we see something on the shelves. 85 00:09:24,369.79114165 --> 00:09:29,799.79114165 In the meantime, we have our website and our mobile app, which we update every year. 86 00:09:29,895.65390135 --> 00:09:36,773.99448708 So it, keeping to date on prayer materials as the world of course, accelerates faster and faster or so it seems. 87 00:09:37,250.16445679 --> 00:09:42,740.16445679 You know, Jason, as you were just sharing about the, the origins of Operation World here in Southern Africa, many. 88 00:09:43,325.16445679 --> 00:09:46,795.16445679 Of those who are listening might know that, that I'm in Southern Africa. 89 00:09:46,795.16445679 --> 00:09:53,215.16445679 I'm in South Africa, and uh, I had the privilege of going to the Congress with one of our elders. 90 00:09:53,605.16445679 --> 00:09:54,505.16445679 Her name is Dr. 91 00:09:54,505.16445679 --> 00:09:58,135.16445679 Jenny Joshua, and she serves in one of our missions organizations from our church. 92 00:09:58,135.16445679 --> 00:09:58,165.16445679 I. 93 00:09:58,835.16445679 --> 00:10:08,55.16445679 And she, she is now retired and working, working in missions and she grew up in apartheid, South Africa and under the apartheid regime as well. 94 00:10:08,265.16445679 --> 00:10:19,655.16445679 And she, she mentioned that growing up her mother used to encourage them to pray for the nations and they would pray for, for nations that were persecuted. 95 00:10:20,735.16445679 --> 00:10:22,925.16445679 she said one of the most amazing experiences. 96 00:10:22,945.16445679 --> 00:10:33,265.16445679 Of the Congress for her was she was meeting people from some of these unreached nations that she had been praying for as, as a young child. 97 00:10:33,325.16445679 --> 00:10:40,215.16445679 And it's for me that, that shows the power and demonstrates the power of what operation world is doing. 98 00:10:40,665.16445679 --> 00:10:49,5.16445679 That we are, you, you're not only just putting data out there, you're inspiring little girls to, to be praying for the nations and, and one day. 99 00:10:49,15.16445679 --> 00:10:53,755.16445679 They may very well have the same encounter that, that, uh, one of my elders did, Dr. 100 00:10:53,755.16445679 --> 00:10:54,595.16445679 Jenny Joshua. 101 00:10:54,595.16445679 --> 00:11:02,695.16445679 And so I would love, uh, I would like to talk to you just to briefly about prayer briefly about the role of data in prayer. 102 00:11:02,785.16445679 --> 00:11:06,175.16445679 And so maybe to kick off, you know, many churches and ministries. 103 00:11:07,195.16445679 --> 00:11:08,245.16445679 Talk a lot about prayer. 104 00:11:08,885.16445679 --> 00:11:11,705.16445679 They stand on stage and they encourage the, the church to pray. 105 00:11:12,125.16445679 --> 00:11:16,595.16445679 But in reality, prayer often takes a backseat in the local church. 106 00:11:16,625.16445679 --> 00:11:19,385.16445679 Uh, at least I'll speak in my, from my own context. 107 00:11:20,255.16445679 --> 00:11:30,665.16445679 do you think that there is a gap between how we talk about prayer and maybe how we preach about prayer and how we actually do prayer? I'd be interested to hear your reflections on that. 108 00:11:31,104.77343099 --> 00:11:43,194.77343099 Yeah, well the world is a a big place and I wouldn't want to try to paint all believers with the same brush, but I think that generally speaking, you've hit the nail on the head and I. 109 00:11:43,649.77343099 --> 00:12:00,59.77343099 I would add to that kind of a sense of, of guilt or shame for many of us because we know that we even feel in our own hearts we should be praying more or differently, and yet we do not. 110 00:12:00,659.77343099 --> 00:12:07,919.77343099 And for me, I think having grown up in Canada, having spent most of my adult life in the uk. 111 00:12:08,309.77343099 --> 00:12:20,459.77343099 Having, having been to dozens of, of different countries and now living in a, a hyper modernistic society, that's Korea, but whose church history is deeply founded on the prayer movement. 112 00:12:21,59.77343099 --> 00:12:33,629.77343099 This is, this is an area that I am really learning about and digging into, and the, the conclusion that I've put on is simply put, we are too comfortable, we're too affluent. 113 00:12:34,574.77343099 --> 00:12:40,884.77343099 We're two systems oriented in the global evangelical world, I would dare say. 114 00:12:41,394.77343099 --> 00:12:54,569.77343099 And we're, we're too secularized, you know, and the great irony of course, is that all of those things came about largely because Christianity had such a profound influence upon Western civilization. 115 00:12:55,314.77343099 --> 00:13:00,264.77343099 The historian Tom Holland and plenty of others have, have articulated how the gospel. 116 00:13:01,89.77343099 --> 00:13:06,909.77343099 Was so profoundly influential on the thriving of Western civilization that we don't even realize it. 117 00:13:06,909.77343099 --> 00:13:10,719.77343099 It's the water in which we are swimming as fish. 118 00:13:10,839.77343099 --> 00:13:14,919.77343099 Uh, we, we don't know that it's the water we're in now. 119 00:13:15,399.77343099 --> 00:13:19,719.77343099 What this means is that it's our, it's our human nature. 120 00:13:19,809.77343099 --> 00:13:28,359.77343099 In fact, I wanna read a quote from my academic mentor when I was a seminary and, and that's, uh, Dr. 121 00:13:28,359.77343099 --> 00:13:29,289.77343099 Jonathan Bonk. 122 00:13:30,219.77343099 --> 00:13:34,839.77343099 And he writes in an incredible volume called Missions Money. 123 00:13:34,989.77343099 --> 00:13:45,579.77343099 This little snippet, he says, Western subliminal agnosticism is not deliberate, but seemingly the human default mode of material and physical security. 124 00:13:45,999.77343099 --> 00:13:57,639.77343099 We try hard to believe to the extent that some devotees even attend prayer meetings, but our affluence makes God only necessary in an ontological or religious sentence. 125 00:13:57,909.77343099 --> 00:13:58,539.77343099 Prayer. 126 00:13:58,974.77343099 --> 00:14:07,14.77343099 As a biblical study of the subject, quickly reveals is not the activity of people who are in reasonable control of their lives. 127 00:14:07,524.77343099 --> 00:14:17,94.77343099 It is the resort of the weak, the overwrought, desperate people whose life circumstances call for resources beyond their own. 128 00:14:18,294.77343099 --> 00:14:20,34.77343099 And I think he encapsulates right there. 129 00:14:20,34.77343099 --> 00:14:20,664.77343099 Why. 130 00:14:21,444.77343099 --> 00:14:26,754.77343099 Why our prayer lives are so ind because we're so successful in all the other aspects of life. 131 00:14:27,414.77343099 --> 00:14:39,384.77343099 And when I meet some of these praying aunties and uncles and grandparents in the Korean church, they grew up in the time when Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world absolutely devastated by its own. 132 00:14:39,594.77343099 --> 00:14:41,424.77343099 The, the war on the Korean peninsula. 133 00:14:41,604.77343099 --> 00:14:43,59.77343099 They literally had nothing but. 134 00:14:43,254.77343099 --> 00:14:43,764.77343099 Prayer. 135 00:14:44,34.77343099 --> 00:14:49,944.77343099 And so you see how that reality shaped their spirituality and their commitment to a life of prayer. 136 00:14:50,184.77343099 --> 00:14:53,154.77343099 We see it in Africa, we see it in China. 137 00:14:53,154.77343099 --> 00:14:54,984.77343099 We see it in context where the church is. 138 00:14:55,824.77343099 --> 00:14:57,354.77343099 Intensely persecuted. 139 00:14:57,654.77343099 --> 00:15:04,134.77343099 They don't have resources, their own strength to do anything about these things, and they turn to God. 140 00:15:04,464.77343099 --> 00:15:11,484.80417694 We've been, uh, so coddled by our, our comfortability in, in Western Christianity Yeah. 141 00:15:11,484.80417694 --> 00:15:15,924.80417694 You know, as you were speaking, I was just reflecting on, on Dr. 142 00:15:15,924.80417694 --> 00:15:19,464.80417694 Andrew Murray, who you mentioned earlier, uh, in the podcast. 143 00:15:19,464.80417694 --> 00:15:23,244.80417694 And, and he wrote a lot on prayer in the early 20th century. 144 00:15:23,244.80417694 --> 00:15:27,634.80417694 And I've, I've learned a lot from, from reading, some of his books. 145 00:15:27,934.80417694 --> 00:15:34,984.80417694 And, you know, it's interesting that, that even in his context, he would reflect on the prayerlessness. 146 00:15:36,34.80417694 --> 00:15:38,944.80417694 the pastors that of the time. 147 00:15:39,4.80417694 --> 00:15:47,554.80417694 And, um, you know, he, he often equated prayer to just as like, air is, is what our bodies need to survive. 148 00:15:47,554.80417694 --> 00:15:50,524.80417694 Prayer is what our souls need to survive. 149 00:15:50,914.80417694 --> 00:15:59,554.80417694 And, um, it just seems like this is a constant battle for, for the souls of, of those leading ministries. 150 00:15:59,644.80417694 --> 00:16:03,334.80417694 And so I, I would love just to, to touch base with you on this. 151 00:16:03,359.80417694 --> 00:16:04,199.80417694 I mean, you've engaged. 152 00:16:04,834.80417694 --> 00:16:10,864.80417694 In prayer with countless people from across the world, ministry leaders, organizational leaders, pastoral leaders. 153 00:16:11,584.80417694 --> 00:16:21,964.80417694 is one encouragement that you would give to, to those who, who may very well feel guilty about their prayer lives? It, it almost feels like one of those goals that, that is unattainable. 154 00:16:21,964.80417694 --> 00:16:31,302.56953828 Like when do you ever reach a perfect state of prayer? what, what encouragement would you give to ministry leaders who are listening to this? There are a number of things I would say. 155 00:16:31,302.56953828 --> 00:16:34,2.56953828 One of them that I would briefly say is that. 156 00:16:34,588.84904375 --> 00:16:44,839.3285734 I am glad that prayer is something that is not just a last resort for those of us who have been over secularized. 157 00:16:45,349.3285734 --> 00:16:50,164.3285734 It is the spiritual foundation for those who have nothing, and so I'm, I'm grateful. 158 00:16:51,634.3285734 --> 00:17:03,424.3285734 Because if our ministry success was dependent on our organizational systems or how much money we threw at the problem, then we would, we would be failing all the time. 159 00:17:03,964.3285734 --> 00:17:21,124.3285734 Because it is based on the power of God at work in the nations, then that means that no matter how new we are, how poor we are, how illiterate we are, how alone we are, we have access to the power that actually does bring about change. 160 00:17:21,647.6619067 --> 00:17:29,884.3317179 there's some really good writers, both from the, the Anglosphere and otherwise who, who understand this principle that if. 161 00:17:30,814.3317179 --> 00:17:35,974.3317179 Ultimately the only things that matter are things that are supernatural in nature. 162 00:17:35,974.3317179 --> 00:17:55,293.8712665 That is that only God can achieve, including our, our salvation, And maybe it's because of the style of prayer times that we have as individuals or in our prayer meetings, but God actually designed us and every, every believer will say amen to the notion that we were created to experience. 163 00:17:55,468.8712665 --> 00:18:01,408.8712665 Relationship with God and intimacy with God, which is fundamentally all that prayer really is. 164 00:18:01,768.8712665 --> 00:18:03,860.9942656 It's interaction with God. 165 00:18:03,890.9942656 --> 00:18:06,290.9942656 It's speaking to God and it's listening to God. 166 00:18:06,801.377766 --> 00:18:08,480.9942656 And we were shaped for this. 167 00:18:08,480.9942656 --> 00:18:14,900.9942656 And there's another excellent book that I'd recommend by, by David McMillon called, shaped for Prayer Enjoyment. 168 00:18:15,320.9942656 --> 00:18:19,970.9942656 David was a missionary in, uh, in an unreached context for many years. 169 00:18:20,404.1280821 --> 00:18:36,574.1280821 when we enter into prayer, even into intercession, uh, when we begin to capture the essence of what it truly is, it actually becomes an enjoyable experience that we can take delight in, which then makes it so much easier to maintain and to sustain. 170 00:18:37,189.1280821 --> 00:18:42,349.1280821 And I think that's the a, a learning journey that I've been on and that our team has been on. 171 00:18:42,799.1280821 --> 00:18:48,589.1280821 Um, one of the things that we take great delight in now is that we, we regularly pray together virtually. 172 00:18:48,979.1280821 --> 00:18:56,509.1280821 And some of those times, in fact, once a week we open it up to anyone else who would like to join us in praying for a different country every week. 173 00:18:56,841.4403831 --> 00:19:06,379.1280821 And when we get these brothers and sisters from Africa, or from Latin America or from parts of Asia joining us, and we hear them pray, it really. 174 00:19:06,724.1280821 --> 00:19:16,504.1280821 Inspires us, it humbles us to, to get a sense of how confident and how familiar and how intimate they are with the life of prayer. 175 00:19:16,774.1280821 --> 00:19:19,864.1280821 And so we're all learning from one another on that journey. 176 00:19:20,344.1280821 --> 00:19:22,54.1280821 Um, yeah, it's, it's a good thing. 177 00:19:22,474.1280821 --> 00:19:29,164.1280821 And if anyone is going to be praying for the nations, then I, I believe it's essential. 178 00:19:29,824.1280821 --> 00:19:39,4.1280821 We learn how to do that in a way that brings about joy and brings about life, and brings about satisfaction because otherwise it's, it's just not sustainable. 179 00:19:39,371.738936 --> 00:19:44,381.738936 Yeah, Jason, I, I really appreciate the way that you framed prayer as, as a source of joy. 180 00:19:44,381.738936 --> 00:19:49,571.738936 And it's something that God didn't design, pray to, to be a tedious task. 181 00:19:49,571.738936 --> 00:19:54,581.738936 He, he created it for us to enjoy him and for him to enjoy us. 182 00:19:54,581.738936 --> 00:19:56,771.738936 And, and I really appreciate that reframe. 183 00:19:56,771.738936 --> 00:19:58,781.738936 It's, it is actually an, it's an encouragement. 184 00:19:59,651.738936 --> 00:20:06,641.738936 I know that for me, one of the things I had to deconstruct in terms of prayer was saying prayer as a discipline. 185 00:20:06,866.738936 --> 00:20:10,526.738936 You know, we often talk about spiritual disciplines and the tradition that I grew up in. 186 00:20:11,786.738936 --> 00:20:17,11.738936 and for me, just even that word it, it takes away from that, that aspect of joy. 187 00:20:17,206.433248 --> 00:20:20,206.433248 it's something I have to do rather than something I get to enjoy. 188 00:20:20,266.433248 --> 00:20:26,386.433248 And, um, so I really appreciate that reframe and, and hopefully that encourages some who are listening to this. 189 00:20:26,416.433248 --> 00:20:32,423.0999146 'cause it always feels as if there's more to be praying about, especially when we start including the nations into that paradigm. 190 00:20:32,738.0999146 --> 00:20:34,568.0999146 It can be completely overwhelming. 191 00:20:34,825.3980205 --> 00:20:36,296.8888364 so I really appreciate that reframe. 192 00:20:36,571.8888364 --> 00:20:46,136.8888364 I, I would love to talk to you about the intersection of data and prayer as well, uh, because a lot of what you guys do with Operation World has got to do with data. 193 00:20:46,826.8888364 --> 00:21:01,3.6282463 Why does information matter for Mission? Why do you believe data is important for Global Missions and a intersession? I could talk for hours about that, I'll only be scratching the surface and one of the reasons why I. 194 00:21:01,263.6282463 --> 00:21:17,223.6282463 Data and research is really essential for mission and for intercession, is that there is a great ignorance on the fact that our world is primarily spiritual. 195 00:21:17,583.6282463 --> 00:21:34,953.6282463 There's a great quote by Dallas Willard, you know, one of the preeminent American thinkers and theologians, philosophers, and he said that the, the main dividing line between cultures is basically those who believe that there is only a physical universe and those who believe that there is something more. 196 00:21:36,123.6282463 --> 00:21:46,383.6282463 And for so many of us, we've, we have again, become so thoroughly secularized that we don't realize that what we see with our eyes is only a tiny fraction. 197 00:21:46,503.6282463 --> 00:21:46,533.6282463 I. 198 00:21:46,953.6282463 --> 00:21:56,343.6282463 The reality, even in the material realm, our eyesight is only less than 100th of a percent of the electromagnetic spectrum that we can perceive. 199 00:21:56,493.6282463 --> 00:21:58,863.6282463 Nevermind if we go into the spiritual realm. 200 00:21:59,163.6282463 --> 00:22:00,933.6282463 And so when we see these Old Testament. 201 00:22:01,353.6282463 --> 00:22:21,693.6282463 Episodes where the curtain gets pulled back on the spiritual realities, like with Elisha and the chariots of fire that his servant perceived that, that taps into this understanding that we see the tip of the iceberg of reality and the spiritual realm is everything else that lies beyond our, um, our site. 202 00:22:22,303.5123873 --> 00:22:29,443.5123873 And so data helps to demonstrate that there still very much is great spiritual need around the world. 203 00:22:30,28.5123873 --> 00:22:36,688.5123873 There's also a great ignorance of our missional responsibilities, and this is where research and data helps as well. 204 00:22:36,933.5123873 --> 00:22:57,22.3311504 It, it reminds me of that, that famous or infamous Barna study that happened of several year, I think it was in 2018, where they asked church attending American Christians whether they had heard of the Great Commission and only one out of six were able to say, yes. 205 00:22:57,22.3311504 --> 00:23:02,872.3311504 I've heard of big commission and I know the passage that's associated with that term. 206 00:23:03,472.3311504 --> 00:23:06,262.3311504 The majority had never even heard of the commission. 207 00:23:06,262.3311504 --> 00:23:08,332.3311504 51% had never heard of it. 208 00:23:08,542.3311504 --> 00:23:11,542.3311504 Much less be able to, going to where it is in scripture. 209 00:23:11,662.3311504 --> 00:23:15,592.3311504 Nevermind live a Christian life that reflects its realities. 210 00:23:15,892.3311504 --> 00:23:27,335.103076 So we have a of work to do in bringing mission back into the teaching of the church, There's also, of course, a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding of what's happening in the wider world. 211 00:23:27,725.103076 --> 00:23:30,305.103076 The challenge of media bias and propaganda. 212 00:23:30,455.103076 --> 00:23:37,505.103076 We're living in fast changing times, and the forms of media that we learn about our world from are also changing and evolving. 213 00:23:37,835.103076 --> 00:23:38,15.103076 So. 214 00:23:38,795.103076 --> 00:23:50,705.103076 Our goal is to make sure that we're getting the right information and passing that on in Patrick's day, you know, in apartheid, you know, Southern Rhodesia or South Africa. 215 00:23:50,975.103076 --> 00:23:54,755.103076 It was the getting of the information that was the huge challenge today. 216 00:23:54,755.103076 --> 00:24:08,227.7822957 The challenge is, do we get the right information that reflects the facts and truth, and can we filter out all the nonsense, all the, the fake news? and get down to what is the heart of the matter. 217 00:24:08,771.7903057 --> 00:24:17,685.3405369 beyond that, I would also say that one could argue that we have enough resources already to complete the great commission, whatever that looks like, I. 218 00:24:18,405.3405369 --> 00:24:21,945.3405369 You know, I don't know what that means exactly, and I don't think anybody does. 219 00:24:22,215.3405369 --> 00:24:25,335.3405369 But what we do know is that we're falling fall short of it right now. 220 00:24:25,785.3405369 --> 00:24:30,885.3405369 But our problem is not so much that we don't have the resources, is that we deploy them. 221 00:24:30,885.3405369 --> 00:24:31,425.3405369 So. 222 00:24:32,130.3405369 --> 00:24:49,795.3405369 Inconsistently and un strategically, we repeat what we're doing in places where that work is not needed at all, and we ignore the places of greatest spiritual need and research and data helps us understand where are places of spiritual need and how do we get people to go there. 223 00:24:51,15.3405369 --> 00:25:04,545.3405369 So strategic sending and, and, and strategic deployment of workers of financial resources and of intercession is going to make the church much more effective in what it is already doing. 224 00:25:05,325.3405369 --> 00:25:11,655.3405369 And then I guess another one would be the more you know, the more well equipped you are to pray. 225 00:25:12,45.3405369 --> 00:25:19,335.3405369 I, I can pray for you, Jason, but I'll never pray for you with the same amount of understanding that your mother, I. 226 00:25:20,400.3405369 --> 00:25:27,660.3405369 Pray for you or your, your wife, or that you would pray for your loved ones, nevermind the same fervency and passion. 227 00:25:27,960.3405369 --> 00:25:33,600.3405369 So as we understand more about the world, it equips us to more effectively pray for the world. 228 00:25:34,20.3405369 --> 00:25:40,560.3405369 And while God can honor, you know, a, a, a simple prayer of a child who would say, Lord bless Nepal. 229 00:25:41,280.3405369 --> 00:25:44,190.3405369 And, you know, show Jesus to the people there. 230 00:25:44,370.3405369 --> 00:25:51,870.3405369 God can hear and answer that prayer, but the more we understand the situation, the more effective we can play based on our understanding. 231 00:25:52,870.8114912 --> 00:25:57,572.8448082 then one of the things that God does that he calls people to as. 232 00:25:57,932.8448082 --> 00:25:59,672.8448082 The answer to their own prayers. 233 00:25:59,957.8609292 --> 00:26:04,157.8609292 And then God said, you go, I'm sending you to be the answer to your prayers. 234 00:26:04,157.8609292 --> 00:26:13,157.8609292 So intercession can also be a dangerous thing if you enjoy a, a comfortable life because God may call you to be part of the solution. 235 00:26:13,885.4808002 --> 00:26:14,125.4808002 Yeah. 236 00:26:14,125.4808002 --> 00:26:31,279.0068477 so lots of things going on where good information and, reliable understanding helps to make our mission more fruitful and effective, but also helps to make our prayers more effective and even, I dare say, more enjoyable as well. 237 00:26:31,571.3659733 --> 00:26:39,131.3659733 No, I, I really appreciate the, the way that you, you're kind of placing prayer, prayer and data together with that spiritual element. 238 00:26:39,475.1878697 --> 00:26:41,845.1878697 you know, just recently I was in Albania and. 239 00:26:42,865.1878697 --> 00:26:49,75.1878697 I started looking at the data and I started engaging with, um, one of the Albanians who was a Muslim. 240 00:26:49,105.1878697 --> 00:26:57,325.1878697 And you started realizing, oh, the, least about 50% or close to 50% of the Albanian population are Muslim. 241 00:26:57,325.1878697 --> 00:27:08,5.1878697 And then you start digging into the data about the Protestant, um, the faith in the country, and you realize that it's almost one in every 200 people I was seeing were. 242 00:27:08,10.0037935 --> 00:27:11,460.0037935 Supposed to be like Evangelical or Protestant Christians. 243 00:27:11,940.0037935 --> 00:27:16,556.3058225 And, and for me that was, as you said, you know, I, I've grown up in a Christian nation. 244 00:27:16,877.3195593 --> 00:27:19,37.3195593 every street corner has a church on it. 245 00:27:19,137.3195593 --> 00:27:24,687.3195593 Almost every sec second person you meet is likely to be a Christian who does go to church. 246 00:27:24,687.3195593 --> 00:27:25,227.3195593 And so. 247 00:27:25,562.3195593 --> 00:27:34,562.3195593 For me it was, it was a, it was a shifting moment to realize every single person that is in my sight right now on the street, chances are they don't know Jesus. 248 00:27:34,982.3195593 --> 00:27:41,222.3195593 And that shifted the way that I was praying as I was walking, as I was engaging with the, the people that I was talking to. 249 00:27:41,642.3195593 --> 00:27:42,722.3195593 And, and I think that's. 250 00:27:43,482.3195593 --> 00:27:46,662.3195593 Really where data fits into this picture of prayer. 251 00:27:46,662.3195593 --> 00:27:49,272.3195593 If I didn't have that information, I would've just been ignorant. 252 00:27:49,662.3195593 --> 00:28:03,732.3195593 And, and even now as I think of Albania or I think of the other nations I've had, the, the joy of going to my prayer life is different towards them because I've seen the people, I've read the data, and I now know how to pray and in a more efficient way. 253 00:28:04,152.3195593 --> 00:28:05,622.3195593 And so I, I, yeah. 254 00:28:05,942.3195593 --> 00:28:13,742.3195593 So, so I appreciate the work that you guys do around data and, and I would like to continue that conversation and just talk about global trends. 255 00:28:14,102.3195593 --> 00:28:24,182.3195593 You know, you mentioned that you've been in this kind of missions environment, global missions environment, thinking about global trends in data for well over 30 years now. 256 00:28:24,467.3195593 --> 00:28:28,652.3195593 And, and I, I would be interested to hear how you have seen. 257 00:28:29,7.3195593 --> 00:28:37,137.3195593 The, the world shift in terms the, the global landscape shift in terms of the, of the gospel proclamation. 258 00:28:37,557.3195593 --> 00:28:43,197.3195593 So, so could you start us there? Let's talk about how you've seen things shift and then we can talk about future trends. 259 00:28:43,197.3195593 --> 00:28:43,224.0973308 I. 260 00:28:43,436.3753721 --> 00:28:46,461.3753721 The shift, and I don't think that anyone who's. 261 00:28:47,211.3753721 --> 00:28:52,671.3753721 Familiar with or engaged with the lauan movement is gonna find this new. 262 00:28:53,441.3753721 --> 00:29:08,861.3753721 But in our lifetimes, we've, we've seen this historical shift of the body of Christ to becoming a Africa, Asia, and Latin American majority. 263 00:29:09,221.3753721 --> 00:29:14,141.3753721 It, it happened in the lifetime of most people who are alive today in the world. 264 00:29:14,981.3753721 --> 00:29:20,351.3753721 And that shift is not slowing down. 265 00:29:21,131.3753721 --> 00:29:23,201.3753721 And there's a lot of elements to that shift. 266 00:29:23,711.3753721 --> 00:29:28,631.3753721 One of them, of course, is human demographics and, and fertility rates and population growth. 267 00:29:29,231.3753721 --> 00:29:37,431.3753721 But another element of that is that actually all those decades of, of doing mission in those places are bearing fruit. 268 00:29:38,181.3753721 --> 00:29:39,411.3753721 It didn't happen overnight. 269 00:29:39,471.3753721 --> 00:29:54,724.0708392 It sometimes didn't even happen in, in a lifetime, But now we see that the places where, where mission was being done, now we see the churches in those places thriving and growing and sending out missionaries of their own to other parts of the world. 270 00:29:55,373.1321563 --> 00:30:20,609.0732324 Another element of this, of course, is the, the aspects of migration and diaspora populations where we have people from all over the world, in communities all over the world, and that has affected not just the, the fabric of human population but but also the fabric of what the church life looks like from place to place. 271 00:30:20,909.0732324 --> 00:30:23,99.0732324 When you go to certain parts of the world. 272 00:30:23,954.0732324 --> 00:30:31,813.4952324 Sometimes the most thriving expressions of Christianity aren't amongst the indigenous population but are amongst migrant populations. 273 00:30:32,293.4952324 --> 00:30:47,814.8364259 You can go to certain neighborhoods in East London where the streets are absolutely heaving with people on as Sunday, who are mostly of African or or Caribbean background, and those are the churches that are full of thousands of people. 274 00:30:49,373.8364259 --> 00:30:56,243.8364259 We're, we are beginning to see a little bit of a, of a shift back to in, in the Anglo churches as it were. 275 00:30:56,682.3360347 --> 00:30:59,82.3360347 the tide may be turning on that front as well. 276 00:30:59,82.3360347 --> 00:30:59,892.3360347 Praise the Lord. 277 00:31:00,252.3360347 --> 00:31:03,342.3360347 But where the vibrancy is, is in the. 278 00:31:04,47.3360347 --> 00:31:17,497.0027661 The Nigerian churches and the Ghanaian churches, and the Jamaican churches, and the Brazilian churches and the not primarily or exclusively amongst the, you know, the British, uh, indigenous populations. 279 00:31:17,617.0027661 --> 00:31:20,389.1403038 And you see that all around the world in all kinds of ways. 280 00:31:20,569.1403038 --> 00:31:25,969.1403038 So I think that's an aspect of this shift to majority world Christianity. 281 00:31:26,344.1403038 --> 00:31:37,444.1403038 That is, is going to, uh, have a profound impact on what the faith looks like from, from community to community, from city to city, from country to country. 282 00:31:37,867.5840462 --> 00:31:45,667.5840462 So let's, let's dive a little bit more deeper into, into the, in interaction between the majority world and the Western Church. 283 00:31:45,667.5840462 --> 00:31:48,697.5840462 You know, I'd be, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. 284 00:31:48,977.5840462 --> 00:31:52,602.5840462 As someone who comes from Canada you, you know, how, how should. 285 00:31:54,237.5840462 --> 00:32:08,247.5840462 The global church, so the majority World Church engage with that of the Western church, you know, because there's almost like this uneven shift or like resource resources are in the west, um, but the people are in the majority world. 286 00:32:08,547.5840462 --> 00:32:17,414.9731923 So can we, can we speak a little bit more into that? How is this shaping or distorting healthy growth of Christianity globally? It's obscene, frankly. 287 00:32:17,993.137548 --> 00:32:22,837.239472 that how could I put this in a way that doesn't make me sound too angry, but. 288 00:32:23,621.3216498 --> 00:32:43,458.9953909 The, the perception of Western Christianity has actually caused the Lord's name to be profaned among the nations, and yet for some reason, we think we're the ones who are the most well equipped to figure out how to share the gospel into all of these other contexts. 289 00:32:43,758.9953909 --> 00:32:46,278.9953909 And somehow we think that the books that are. 290 00:32:46,908.9953909 --> 00:32:56,688.9953909 Pastors or our theologians compile worship songs that our megachurches produce are, are the best ones or the most effective ones. 291 00:32:56,958.9953909 --> 00:33:12,318.9953909 And yeah, maybe, maybe this comes off too, too harshly, but I, I think that we need to just stop and listen to what the rest of the global body of Christ is saying. 292 00:33:13,188.9953909 --> 00:33:15,883.9953909 Stop and watch what it is that they're doing. 293 00:33:16,563.9953909 --> 00:33:17,553.9953909 That's effective. 294 00:33:17,553.9953909 --> 00:33:17,793.9953909 effective. 295 00:33:17,793.9953909 --> 00:33:34,35.7981686 As you look at the profound, how can I put this? That the brokenness of Christendom, in the Western world, particularly in Western Europe and North America, Australia, I don't know that we, we have much of a, of a foot to a leg to stand on. 296 00:33:34,715.1364843 --> 00:33:35,645.1364843 I also think that. 297 00:33:36,375.718028 --> 00:33:46,76.5122988 When we look at the book of Acts and we see how the early church, they sold their property in order to give the proceeds to one another. 298 00:33:46,556.5122988 --> 00:33:51,626.5122988 Acts chapter four says, none of them considered what they had as their own. 299 00:33:52,293.1789655 --> 00:33:54,730.7898194 The the fact that we Yeah. 300 00:33:55,353.1789655 --> 00:33:55,593.1789655 to. 301 00:33:56,373.1789655 --> 00:34:18,610.4579655 Insist as donors on tying all these strings of our feeble generosity to ministry in the rest of the world when what, what we could be doing is actually trusting that the Lord is capable of working through the church elsewhere and give them the liberty to have ownership. 302 00:34:19,135.4579655 --> 00:34:23,35.4579655 Of what they're doing rather than being tied to our purse strings. 303 00:34:23,315.4579655 --> 00:34:30,976.7785709 that of course, is always a challenge because we're all, we're all tempted by and biases and by our own sinfulness. 304 00:34:31,801.7785709 --> 00:34:57,691.7785709 I, I really think that this is the time in the history of Christianity where we still have resources to, to financially speaking, to offer, and I would love to see what happens when we just let go and release that and give ownership of those resources to the churches in the places where God is really at work and where the church is growing and moving because we see the fruit of our own Christianity. 305 00:34:58,441.7785709 --> 00:35:02,221.7785709 And I, I don't know that we got it all that right, to be honest. 306 00:35:02,431.7785709 --> 00:35:03,781.7785709 And yet we have a lot of money. 307 00:35:03,781.7785709 --> 00:35:15,491.7785709 And so, you know, it's human nature to think, oh, therefore we have some kind of authority or therefore our version of Christianity is somehow superior because we, we have more cash. 308 00:35:16,81.7785709 --> 00:35:20,431.7785709 That, yeah, that's a challenging message, but I, I really believe that it, it's time to. 309 00:35:21,91.7785709 --> 00:35:31,631.7785709 For our generosity to increase and for our sense of ownership to be much more of a shared sense of ownership within the whole global body of Christ. 310 00:35:32,81.7785709 --> 00:35:46,91.7785709 I also am encouraged to see that there is a lot of deconstruction, which is of course a very loaded and sometimes problematic term, and a lot of decolonization of theology and of mission. 311 00:35:46,541.7785709 --> 00:35:49,241.7785709 And for me, all that that means is that. 312 00:35:49,916.7785709 --> 00:36:05,216.7785709 Missions being done from other places and to other places needs to be done authentically out of the lived experience and the contextual theology of the people that are doing the work, doing the mission. 313 00:36:06,131.7785709 --> 00:36:23,587.9123577 And so this is really what centrism is from everywhere to everywhere includes sharing the wonders of all of these facets of how God is at work and the ways in which God is working and how those ways reflect His glory and his goodness among is not one size fits all. 314 00:36:23,587.9123577 --> 00:36:24,657.3346856 And embrace that. 315 00:36:24,948.3550938 --> 00:36:33,91.1895609 and become more of a servant of the Great Commission than the the brave leader and, you know, commander in chief. 316 00:36:33,544.7554587 --> 00:36:41,554.7554587 I think now, now might be the season for us to be a steward and a servant instead, and, and let's see what God will do as a result of that. 317 00:36:42,443.7833954 --> 00:36:45,773.7833954 You know, I just connected to that, that whole idea of deconstruction. 318 00:36:45,803.7833954 --> 00:36:53,103.7833954 You know, the, the picture that came to my mind now was very recently one of my neighbor's walls fell down because of rains. 319 00:36:53,523.7833954 --> 00:36:58,308.7833954 And, um, the construction company came in and they broke apart. 320 00:36:58,733.7833954 --> 00:37:00,863.7833954 Bricks 'cause it was a brick wall. 321 00:37:01,163.7833954 --> 00:37:06,473.7833954 And then they reconstructed the bricks together again so that it could be a solid wall. 322 00:37:06,833.7833954 --> 00:37:09,323.7833954 And for me there's a difference between destruction. 323 00:37:09,323.7833954 --> 00:37:16,973.7833954 So you could just destroy the wall and leave, leave the wall broken down and reconstructing something so that it can be stronger and healthier. 324 00:37:16,973.7833954 --> 00:37:23,883.7833954 And really what I'm picking up from you is, is this need to reconstruct a healthy global. 325 00:37:24,553.7833954 --> 00:37:29,383.7833954 Vibrant church that can take the gospel to, to the ends of the earth. 326 00:37:29,813.7833954 --> 00:37:32,483.7833954 So I really appreciate the, the, the way that you frame that. 327 00:37:32,483.7833954 --> 00:37:33,53.7833954 Jason. 328 00:37:33,363.7833954 --> 00:37:47,991.8454421 In terms of other global trends, is there anything else that you feel like we should be focusing in on as a global church? I think the, the elephant in the room, at least time of our recording of this is. 329 00:37:48,566.8454421 --> 00:37:58,856.8454421 I must watch my words, the hyper politicization of Christianity, especially in the English speaking Western world. 330 00:38:00,746.8454421 --> 00:38:12,407.9637524 And I, I, I really believe that this is causing profound negative consequences to the Great commission when Christianity gets commandeered by politics by nationalism. 331 00:38:12,877.9637524 --> 00:38:20,197.9637524 the message of Jesus gets at best compromised and, and at worst, grossly perverted. 332 00:38:21,56.845441 --> 00:38:31,556.845441 there are bad actors at work in the human realm and in the spiritual realm whose agenda is to divide the church and divide Christians. 333 00:38:32,516.845441 --> 00:38:38,306.845441 Degrade the message of the gospel and they are hard at work doing precisely that. 334 00:38:38,936.845441 --> 00:38:51,108.546441 It's worth clarifying that I'm not talking about Christians having, you know, convictions, even Bible based convictions that have implications into the sphere of politics. 335 00:38:51,468.546441 --> 00:39:01,698.546441 I'm talking about the hyper politicization of our Christianity when, when it's our political prejudices that determine our worldviews, our our relationship networks. 336 00:39:02,343.546441 --> 00:39:15,333.546441 Our priorities in life, how we spend our time, who we even will be bothered to speak to if when it's our political prejudices that determine that more than our faith in Jesus, there's a problem. 337 00:39:16,203.546441 --> 00:39:25,702.2883067 And when we think of of God's time for humanity Political travails of our world and all of the economic and, and social and cultural shaking that's going on right now. 338 00:39:25,822.2883067 --> 00:39:28,357.2883067 All of that is only the backdrop. 339 00:39:29,362.2883067 --> 00:39:30,502.2883067 To the Great Commission. 340 00:39:30,802.2883067 --> 00:39:35,212.2883067 It's not the story itself, and we get so caught up in thinking that it's the story. 341 00:39:35,392.2883067 --> 00:39:47,723.2883067 No, it's, it's just the palette on which God is trying to paint the His, his genuine intention for human history, and that's that the messes of Jesus goes to the whole world and that there are. 342 00:39:48,457.2883067 --> 00:39:54,127.2883067 People gathering together to worship Jesus from every tribe and every tongue and every nation. 343 00:39:54,127.2883067 --> 00:40:03,127.2883067 I'm just reminded in one John, it says, the world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. 344 00:40:03,457.2883067 --> 00:40:07,27.2883067 And so I'm not saying that Christians must be apolitical. 345 00:40:07,27.2883067 --> 00:40:10,27.2883067 I'm saying when our politics become an idol. 346 00:40:11,167.2883067 --> 00:40:17,467.2883067 The, the primary determinator determiner of other things, then, then we have a real problem. 347 00:40:17,887.2883067 --> 00:40:20,527.2883067 And, um, I, I don't have an answer. 348 00:40:21,67.2883067 --> 00:40:29,377.2883067 And repentance and all of us need to be continually on our guard because we're all, um, vulnerable to that way of thinking. 349 00:40:29,914.5292903 --> 00:40:30,514.5292903 Yeah, you're right. 350 00:40:30,514.5292903 --> 00:40:35,614.5292903 I mean, we all are vulnerable and I think the, there's a, there's a slow fade that happens. 351 00:40:35,874.5292903 --> 00:40:40,734.5292903 No one decides one day to, to make their, their faith, their politics. 352 00:40:41,14.5292903 --> 00:40:43,474.5292903 I think it's a slow progression that happens. 353 00:40:43,504.5292903 --> 00:40:54,914.5292903 And, uh, you know, just to reinforce something that you were saying there, Jason, you know, I was speaking to a, uh, someone who ministers in a majority Muslim context and just as politics is. 354 00:40:55,14.5292903 --> 00:40:59,94.5292903 Fusing with, with especially Evangelical and Protestant. 355 00:40:59,404.5292903 --> 00:41:12,364.5292903 Faith, uh, as we go into the West, the, the Muslims are saying to her and to, and to their ministry, they're saying, Hey, like, if, if this is your Jesus, then we want nothing to do with it. 356 00:41:12,364.5292903 --> 00:41:15,334.5292903 And, and it's become increasingly more difficult. 357 00:41:15,789.5292903 --> 00:41:20,289.5292903 For them to share the gospel in their context because of what's happening in the west. 358 00:41:20,590.5337592 --> 00:41:24,880.5337592 and we are not just talking about one nation here, we're talking about like the word you've been using. 359 00:41:24,880.5337592 --> 00:41:27,610.5337592 You know, the anglosphere it, it's everywhere. 360 00:41:27,670.5337592 --> 00:41:37,160.5337592 And, um, we gotta be on guard as even you and I and those who are listening, we are not immune to, that becoming our truth and our reality. 361 00:41:37,520.5337592 --> 00:41:40,130.5337592 And so I really appreciate you, you bringing that up. 362 00:41:40,320.0537793 --> 00:41:46,334.9929473 just to briefly, circle back to something about mission that I think is really crucial and, and that is. 363 00:41:46,724.9929473 --> 00:42:11,54.9929473 When we think of doing mission and this whole from everywhere to everywhere polycentric concept, there is incredible, incredible value in doing Mission multiculturally because of the fact that all of us are, whether we know it or not, we're products of our culture and we can even be prisoners of our culture. 364 00:42:11,849.9929473 --> 00:42:20,292.7706389 When we go to share the gospel cross culturally, we have the blind spots that we're, we're conveying things that are not the essence of the gospel that are actually our own. 365 00:42:20,498.2010743 --> 00:42:30,363.4391695 when we work in multicultural teams, those blind spots to us are easily visible to others and theirs are visible to us. 366 00:42:30,573.4391695 --> 00:42:37,23.4391695 And so we, we shave off those rough edges that don't really belong with the gospel as it were. 367 00:42:37,672.0437895 --> 00:42:37,962.0437895 Yeah. 368 00:42:38,88.4391695 --> 00:42:42,978.4391695 It helps us convey a pure and truer gospel when we work together. 369 00:42:43,668.4391695 --> 00:42:47,847.8719428 Also, the gospel is something that allows us to overcome our differences. 370 00:42:47,958.4388362 --> 00:42:59,688.4388362 you go to a, a mission team and they're from Germany and they're from Australia, and they're from Brazil and they're from uh, Singapore, and they're string together in a team. 371 00:43:00,228.4388362 --> 00:43:11,508.4388362 They struggle and sometimes they argue and they have to repent and they have to ask one another, forgiveness, and then they, you know, they press on and continue and they love the locals in the name of Jesus together. 372 00:43:11,838.4388362 --> 00:43:15,378.4388362 That is one of the most powerful and profound ways of sharing the good news. 373 00:43:15,378.4388362 --> 00:43:15,408.4388362 I. 374 00:43:16,53.4388362 --> 00:43:24,693.4388362 And we even know many examples of people who became believers precisely because they saw the diversity of those who were sharing Jesus with them. 375 00:43:24,903.4388362 --> 00:43:26,823.1261729 It wasn't the white man's religion. 376 00:43:26,823.1261729 --> 00:43:29,493.1261729 It wasn't a form of Western cultural imperialism. 377 00:43:29,733.1261729 --> 00:43:33,398.1261729 It was actually people from diverse backgrounds all loving one another. 378 00:43:34,353.1261729 --> 00:43:35,463.1261729 In the name of Jesus. 379 00:43:35,463.1261729 --> 00:43:35,883.1261729 And that. 380 00:43:35,883.1261729 --> 00:43:43,497.0037239 was what was most profound for those people who were watching and paying attention and deciding to fall Jesus because of that. 381 00:43:43,893.2166037 --> 00:43:48,153.2166037 So, um, it also helps with our other kinds of biases as well. 382 00:43:48,213.2166037 --> 00:43:49,833.2166037 So let's, let's do it together. 383 00:43:50,133.2166037 --> 00:43:51,753.2166037 And multiculturally. 384 00:43:51,893.2080294 --> 00:43:53,303.2080294 such a good word, Jason. 385 00:43:53,333.2080294 --> 00:44:00,413.2080294 And, um, you know, I just, I feel like there's so much more we could dig into here, but we are gonna have to start wrapping up this podcast interview. 386 00:44:00,735.4569046 --> 00:44:03,165.4569046 let's begin with resources We've spoken about a lot. 387 00:44:03,505.4569046 --> 00:44:20,282.2107357 Are there any resources that you could suggest that, for those who have heard something that you've said they can, you can say, Hey, go there to find out more dig into these resources, can you point us into any of these spaces? Well, I mean, I'm forced to say that Operation World is a useful tool. 388 00:44:20,552.2107357 --> 00:44:25,442.2107357 So we have a free mobile app that people can use at their own leisure. 389 00:44:25,442.2107357 --> 00:44:29,562.2107357 We have other resources on our website in multiple languages. 390 00:44:29,622.2107357 --> 00:44:36,12.2107357 We're not as diverse as Losan and how, how we produce diverse language resources, but we're, we're aiming for that. 391 00:44:36,402.2107357 --> 00:44:37,602.2107357 That's a great resource. 392 00:44:37,872.2107357 --> 00:44:38,532.2107357 There are. 393 00:44:38,907.2107357 --> 00:44:40,557.2107357 Just so many things going on. 394 00:44:40,607.2107357 --> 00:44:43,277.2107357 There, there are more resources than you can keep track of. 395 00:44:43,487.2107357 --> 00:45:07,417.2107357 But another entity that I would say if, if what you're looking for is connecting with prayer movements around the world and becoming more involved in praying for the world, then the International Prayer Connect is an entity that if you use a a search engine, you can find their website and they are connecting prayer movements together. 396 00:45:07,762.2107357 --> 00:45:11,896.1218286 And what God is doing in that domain is really exciting. 397 00:45:11,896.1218286 --> 00:45:14,716.1218286 Right now, we're seeing more people pray for the nations. 398 00:45:14,716.1218286 --> 00:45:21,616.1218286 Right now, we're in the midst of Raman and we're seeing more Christians pray for Muslims to encounter Jesus than ever before in history. 399 00:45:21,976.1218286 --> 00:45:27,406.1218286 And that's what, that's what the IPC does is to facilitate prayer movements. 400 00:45:28,561.1218286 --> 00:45:33,781.1218286 Another individual who's a, a good friend and a researcher who I greatly Admire is Justin Long. 401 00:45:34,321.1218286 --> 00:45:38,701.1218286 He, he somehow copiously produces resources and research. 402 00:45:38,941.1218286 --> 00:45:41,581.1218286 And if you go to his website, justin long.org, 403 00:45:41,611.1218286 --> 00:45:44,911.1218286 then you can find all kinds of incredible materials as well. 404 00:45:44,971.1218286 --> 00:45:46,146.1218286 Those would be a great place to start. 405 00:45:46,784.455162 --> 00:46:07,736.1218286 and of course then there's always the, and I find myself constantly going back to the Lausanne, uh, contributions by, its wonderfully diverse participants as well, so that I'm always getting exposure to new viewpoints and, uh, and new leaders who I'd not known of before, but who are saying really profound things on the On Lausanne website as well. 406 00:46:08,345.223768 --> 00:46:08,815.223768 Wonderful. 407 00:46:08,815.223768 --> 00:46:09,655.223768 Thank you for that. 408 00:46:09,685.223768 --> 00:46:25,774.9524813 And Jay, how can people connect with you online? If someone's keen on connecting, how can they get around doing that? Just, I think go to the website and you can use, uh, that mechanism to write to us, and that's operation world.org. 409 00:46:26,274.9524813 --> 00:46:28,164.9524813 And then there's a mail function on our site. 410 00:46:28,224.9524813 --> 00:46:29,544.9524813 We'd love to hear from people. 411 00:46:29,824.9524813 --> 00:46:33,4.9524813 We'd love to hear what people are looking for that perhaps can. 412 00:46:33,799.5285375 --> 00:46:43,672.9635375 serve them and their desire to understand and pray for the nations more We'd also invite people to join our, our weekly Wednesday prayer time for the Nations on Zoom. 413 00:46:44,62.9635375 --> 00:46:46,372.9635375 People are very welcome to be a part of that as well. 414 00:46:46,890.4310005 --> 00:46:58,801.5421033 And how can they find out more about that Zoom call? They through our various social media, so whatever social media you platform, just find Operation World or write to us via our website and we'll give you the Zoom link that way. 415 00:46:59,258.0438555 --> 00:46:59,588.0438555 Great. 416 00:46:59,588.0438555 --> 00:47:00,398.0438555 Fantastic. 417 00:47:00,788.0438555 --> 00:47:07,241.1059022 And as we begin to wrap up this interview, do you have any final thoughts that you would like to leave with us? Ooh. 418 00:47:07,451.1059022 --> 00:47:19,181.1059022 Well, yeah, I, I think I'll just, I'll close with two and the first one is something that we didn't get to, but that I think is really important, and that's the issue of global aging. 419 00:47:19,806.1059022 --> 00:47:37,406.5211144 And, and so just in closing, my own story in this is out of a curiosity of just looking at demographic data and finding some trends that I found interesting, but the deeper I got into this, the more I became convinced that global aging is for our generation. 420 00:47:38,606.5211144 --> 00:47:38,996.5211144 What. 421 00:47:39,536.5211144 --> 00:47:51,536.5211144 Unreached Peoples was for the 1974 original Lausanne Congress, and by that I mean, not that it's the only issue or even the most important issue, but it's a huge blind spot. 422 00:47:52,207.3295102 --> 00:47:57,649.7007279 That the radar of the church and missionary force is, is not recognizing. 423 00:47:57,859.7007279 --> 00:48:13,519.7007279 And we need to have our eyes opened to the strategic challenges and opportunities that come when we begin to see the implications of global aging over the next, uh, say 75 years should the Lord Terry. 424 00:48:13,729.7007279 --> 00:48:14,719.7007279 So that's one thing. 425 00:48:15,19.7007279 --> 00:48:19,249.7007279 The other thing is to re-articulate what they, what I shared earlier and. 426 00:48:20,764.7007279 --> 00:48:31,504.7007279 The sense that we are designed for intimacy with God, and prayer is one of, if not the primary way that that gets articulated. 427 00:48:31,894.7007279 --> 00:48:36,184.7007279 And that includes not just praying for ourselves, but also praying for others. 428 00:48:36,184.7007279 --> 00:48:36,214.7007279 I. 429 00:48:37,159.7007279 --> 00:48:57,433.6010613 And, and so I would encourage people to begin to find resources and ways to engage prayer that help them appreciate that this is something that God wants us to enjoy and take delight in and be, be filled with his pleasure and our willingness to be in his presence and to invite his presence into our lives. 430 00:48:57,823.6010613 --> 00:49:00,733.6010613 And not only does it become a lot more fun. 431 00:49:01,78.6010613 --> 00:49:11,188.6010613 But it, as I said, it becomes a lot more sustainable and dare I say, more effective when we pray out of that relational intimacy rather than just as a task to be completed. 432 00:49:11,631.9843183 --> 00:49:18,351.9843183 I mean, just in, in closing as well, I, you know, I think global aging is definitely something that we, we do need to pay attention to. 433 00:49:18,741.9843183 --> 00:49:22,461.9843183 Uh, I think there is, there, I, I'm passionate about the next gen. 434 00:49:22,461.9843183 --> 00:49:23,691.9843183 I'm next gen myself. 435 00:49:24,31.9843183 --> 00:49:36,899.0238184 And I think the church is beginning to pay attention to next gen, but at mustn't lose sight that the world is aging and that there's whole demographic groups that, that need to be reached with the gospel. 436 00:49:37,319.0238184 --> 00:49:43,309.0238184 And so I definitely wanna encourage people to go and find your paper that you, you co-authored for the State of the Great Commission report. 437 00:49:43,639.0238184 --> 00:49:45,259.0238184 We'll include that in the show notes. 438 00:49:45,619.0238184 --> 00:49:55,309.0238184 But Jason, I, I, I think it'll be inappropriate for us not to close off this podcast interview with prayer, seeing as we spend so much time talking about praying for the nations. 439 00:49:55,984.0238184 --> 00:50:01,742.1117357 So, so would you mind leading us in prayer as we close off this interview? It'd be my honor. 440 00:50:02,252.1117358 --> 00:50:02,822.1117357 Let's pray. 441 00:50:03,532.4490492 --> 00:50:16,662.843079 Our loving heavenly Father, we want to begin by just expressing gratitude that you chose to reveal yourself and to reveal your son Jesus. 442 00:50:17,452.843079 --> 00:50:18,202.843079 To us. 443 00:50:18,772.843079 --> 00:50:20,452.843079 None of us are worthy of that. 444 00:50:21,262.843079 --> 00:50:32,392.843079 Lord, I I thank you that you, you are the kind of God who desires relationship with your creation and with your creatures. 445 00:50:33,172.843079 --> 00:50:45,652.843079 And Lord, I pray for, for every person listening to this podcast, that, that each one of us would be captured by not just your majesty. 446 00:50:46,522.843079 --> 00:51:06,831.1177059 Not just your holiness and not just your glory, but also your goodness and your kindness and your warmth, and that our lives of prayer, both individually and corporately, might be able to just be in that space where we feel your good pleasure. 447 00:51:07,626.1177059 --> 00:51:16,686.1177059 Where we long to be the kinds of disciples that please you with our thoughts, with our words, with our actions, with our lives. 448 00:51:18,6.1177059 --> 00:51:29,317.1535268 Lord, I, I pray that you will awaken a spirit of prayer across your entire church, in every denomination, in every generation, in every articulation. 449 00:51:29,317.1535268 --> 00:51:33,297.1535268 Whether it's a, a persecuted cell group in some. 450 00:51:33,807.1535268 --> 00:51:42,927.1535268 Closed country or whether it's the largest congregation in the world, whether it's a church that's hundreds of years old, or a newly formed group of two or three gathered in your name. 451 00:51:43,107.1535268 --> 00:51:51,307.1535268 Lord, I pray that you will awaken a spirit of prayer that takes delight in praying, but also learns how to make prayer. 452 00:51:51,312.1535268 --> 00:51:58,627.1535268 Not the last, but actually, uh, the first priority because it gives so much life and so much joy. 453 00:51:59,317.1535268 --> 00:52:15,967.1535268 And so awaken in us, Lord, that spirit of prayer, and may we be able to take that and turn it to the nation so that we can pray your goodness, and your glory and your warmth to the nations through and only in the name of Jesus we pray. 454 00:52:16,447.1535268 --> 00:52:16,837.1535268 Amen. 455 00:52:17,583.7551617 --> 00:52:18,123.7551617 Amen. 456 00:52:18,711.4226546 --> 00:52:20,631.4226546 Jason, thank you so much for your time. 457 00:52:20,905.5266497 --> 00:52:21,205.5266497 Yeah. 458 00:52:21,205.5266497 --> 00:52:22,405.5266497 Really great to be with you. 459 00:52:22,705.5266497 --> 00:52:28,335.945067 Bless you Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 460 00:52:28,615.945067 --> 00:52:34,545.945067 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 461 00:52:35,34.5676028 --> 00:52:35,834.5676028 Till next week. 462 00:52:36,204.5676028 --> 00:52:36,654.5676028 Cheers.