Grit, Grace, and Global Mission with George Verwer [A Commemorative Episode]

In this special episode of the Lausanne Movement podcast, we're privileged to present a previously unpublished interview with George Verwer, the inspirational founder of Operation Mobilization, and Justin Schell, Director of Executive Projects at the Lausanne Movement. 

This conversation is a tribute to George Verwer's life and enduring legacy. 

Starting from his early days, George shares of being touched by the Gospel and making a significant commitment at a Billy Graham rally, to pioneering literature evangelism at the birth of the Lausanne movement, Verwer reflects on the key moments that shaped his ministry. 

George discusses the trials of leadership, emphasising the significance of prayer, humility, managing failure, and the constant need for grace and forgiveness in leadership roles. Additionally, George delves into his approach to cultural sensitivity, the impact of his ministry style on his family, and the importance of a prayerful foundation. 

He offers invaluable advice to emerging and established leaders in ministry, highlighting the need for personal transformation and understanding the nuances of leadership in global missions. 

We trust that this interview would not just act as reflection on his contributions to missions but become an invitation for you to continue his legacy and join in the mission to accelerate global mission together.

If you would like to help us improve our podcast, please send us the feedback – https://forms.gle/QbNzK7BGqqnFHPHc7

 

Geroge Verwer Bio: 

George Verwer (1938-2023) was born in New Jersey, USA, in 1938. When he was 14 years old, a woman named Dorothea Clapp gave him a copy of the Gospel of John. Mrs Clapp prayed for 18 years for the students at George’s school to become passionate Jesus-followers and take His message to the ends of the earth. Three years later, George attended a Billy Graham meeting in New York City, where he made a personal commitment to Christ. His entire life was changed.  

Inspired by Jesus’ commission to make disciples, George began sharing his faith with fellow students. Within a year, two hundred had chosen to follow Christ. At college in Tennessee, George became burdened for those without access to the Bible, and in 1957, he and two friends sold some of their possessions to fund a road trip to Mexico; taking 20,000 Spanish-language tracts and 10,000 Gospel booklets. The trip led to many more and fanned the flame of George’s conviction to share God’s Word with those who’d never heard it.

Moving to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Illinois, George was confident of God’s call on his life. He blazed a trail for world mission, motivating others in nights of prayer and planning further literature distribution ventures. It was at Moody that George met Drena Knecht, who would become his wife.

In 1960, George and Drena were married. They prioritised their service of the Lord and sold some of their wedding gifts to fund a six-month outreach to Mexico City before moving to Spain, where they established what would become OM’s work there. While in Europe, George smuggled Bibles into Communist-controlled countries, but after being arrested and deported, he took time to reflect. During a time of private prayer in Vienna, Austria, George climbed a tree and saw a group of young people boarding a bus. In that moment, the name Operation Mobilisation sprang to his mind, with the idea of mobilising ‘busloads’ of young people into mission.

Under George’s exuberant leadership and fuelled by the passion of believers from many nations to reach those who had never heard the Good News, OM expanded in the 60s, 70s and 80s: first, across Europe and into the Middle East, then with volunteers crewing ocean-going ships. Logos, the first of five vessels, was launched in 1971, and since then more th

Episode Transcript

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.9999999999But it's when I got arrested by the Soviets 60 years next summer, in my first effort to evangelize Russia, that everything changed. 2 00:00:07,689.9999999999 --> 00:00:09,000 I went for a day of prayer.

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Our work again was just focused on those few extreme unreached nations.
.290401791But God had a different plan and in a prayer meeting gave me the name Operation Mobilization, the vision to mobilize thousands of Europeans and let them drive to those countries, Well, welcome to a very special episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast today, we are on it to release an interview conducted between George Verwer, the visionary founder of operation mobilization. 5 00:00:39,708.290401791 --> 00:00:52,478.290401791 And Justin Schell who's a colleague of mine here at the Lausanne Movement this episode is released in honor of George Verwer life, as was in mark one year of his passing from this life into glory with our Lord Jesus Christ. 6 00:00:52,998.29040179 --> 00:00:59,598.29040179 George is known for his passionate dedication to sharing the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, with those to the ends of the earth. 7 00:01:00,18.29040179 --> 00:01:06,888.29040179 And is an example to all of us, of what it looks like when a life is wholly given to the service of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 00:01:07,369.45290179 --> 00:01:09,79.45290179 As we listen in to this conversation. 9 00:01:09,79.45290179 --> 00:01:17,837.19440424 When you hear from George's testimony and experience, I pray that this conversation would inspire us to accelerate global mission together. 10 00:01:18,287.19440424 --> 00:01:22,317.19440424 So let's jump into Justin's conversation with George Verwer. 11 00:01:23,383.074315358 --> 00:01:26,3.074315358 Well, George, thank you so much for giving us some time. 12 00:01:26,79.189926165 --> 00:01:34,12.40479894 we at Lausanne are so thankful for your life and your ministry and your leadership, and we're excited to hear some of what God has taught you over the years. 13 00:01:34,12.40479894 --> 00:01:35,622.220346714 Well, it's a privilege to be with you. 14 00:01:35,799.881974712 --> 00:01:37,979.881974712 I'm a raving fan of the Lausanne movement. 15 00:01:37,979.881974712 --> 00:01:42,259.88197471 I was there in the mid 70s in Lausanne when it was born. 16 00:01:42,259.88197471 --> 00:01:48,915.50032504 I had my little seminar on using literature and evangelism I had some interesting goals. 17 00:01:48,915.50132504 --> 00:02:04,44.67041499 One was to get Brother Bak Singh of India, my friend, who tended to get a bit rejected by missionaries, started his own huge indigenous movement, which is so popular today, but he pioneered it and he came. 18 00:02:04,304.67041499 --> 00:02:06,214.67041499 He had never been to anything like that. 19 00:02:07,39.67041499 --> 00:02:11,949.67041499 And I got him to meet other people who were very, you know, a different page than him. 20 00:02:12,609.67041499 --> 00:02:19,29.67041499 And we tried to have a prayer night, but they closed the town because the building was not allowed to be open that late. 21 00:02:19,181.48707562 --> 00:02:21,39.72900202 that's one of my many. 22 00:02:21,39.72900202 --> 00:02:23,519.72900202 We also had a huge book display there. 23 00:02:23,849.72800202 --> 00:02:30,39.72900202 So I've been linked ever since and just thank the Lord for this opportunity to be with you. 24 00:02:30,54.4429392 --> 00:02:33,244.4429392 for those who may not know much about you. 25 00:02:33,274.4429392 --> 00:02:39,224.4429392 Could you give us a quick introduction to who is George Verwer? And feel free to take that any direction. 26 00:02:39,974.4429392 --> 00:02:45,864.4419392 Yeah, well, you can Google and find out an awful lot about me, but it's always good to hear it right from the person. 27 00:02:46,744.4419392 --> 00:02:54,614.4429392 I'm a son of a Dutch immigrant who married into the English side of our culture, New Jersey, New York City area. 28 00:02:54,770.6416936 --> 00:02:56,470.6416936 And I went to a very. 29 00:02:57,340.6416936 --> 00:03:02,440.6416936 formal sleepy church where it was like a social club. 30 00:03:02,480.6416936 --> 00:03:11,770.6416936 So I fit in quite well, but I had no personal experience of Jesus and I was living my own self centered, have fun life. 31 00:03:12,520.6416936 --> 00:03:15,660.6416936 I'm about to become president of the student council. 32 00:03:15,660.6416936 --> 00:03:21,690.6406936 We know in USA culture, how that kind of thing is so big for our egos, of which mine was a fair size. 33 00:03:22,610.6416936 --> 00:03:26,300.6406936 But a godly woman prayed for me and sent me a gospel of John. 34 00:03:27,20.6406936 --> 00:03:36,635.6416936 Her son was leading the Bible club and I occasionally went to that and Something about his life was very, very powerful. 35 00:03:36,735.6416936 --> 00:03:38,5.6416936 I'm still in touch with him. 36 00:03:38,15.6416936 --> 00:03:41,325.6416936 Became a great doctor, Danny Klatt. 37 00:03:42,445.6416936 --> 00:03:47,870.6416936 And anyway, she sent with Danny this gospel and I was just having such a good time. 38 00:03:47,870.6416936 --> 00:04:05,517.30836027 I didn't pay too much attention, but I was reading it and almost got lured a bit into the world of pornography, which blew my teenage circuits when I just discovered even what you, what we used to hold girly magazines then Billy Graham came to New York city and some business proactive business people. 39 00:04:05,627.30836027 --> 00:04:09,937.30836027 The story of what business people have done for global missions has never been properly told. 40 00:04:09,947.30836027 --> 00:04:10,747.30836027 That's for sure. 41 00:04:11,792.30836027 --> 00:04:28,340.64543089 And he gave us a free bus trip into the center of New York City, Madison Square Garden, one night stand, not a crusade, guest speaker for a wild converted band leader, Jack Worsten, who founded Word of Life, and I heard the gospel and he called people to repent. 42 00:04:29,80.64643089 --> 00:04:29,890.64643089 I needed that. 43 00:04:29,890.64643089 --> 00:04:30,840.64643089 I needed to be hit. 44 00:04:31,560.64643089 --> 00:04:39,740.64643089 So I went forward in front of 20, 000 people and broke and wept and, and God met me. 45 00:04:39,740.64643089 --> 00:04:44,100.64643089 I believe he, he saved me and I believe in some ways he sent me that. 46 00:04:44,615.64643089 --> 00:04:45,295.64643089 very night. 47 00:04:45,365.64643089 --> 00:04:47,145.64643089 I'm sure it was the Holy Spirit. 48 00:04:47,925.64643089 --> 00:05:02,355.64643089 All the debate we have about the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit, I believe, filled me and sent me that night, though not separating that from my culture and being just a baby Christian, which worked out. 49 00:05:02,855.64643089 --> 00:05:06,395.64643089 in rather challenging ways in the next year as I had to grow. 50 00:05:06,416.43197901 --> 00:05:10,836.43197901 And anyway, to make the rest of the short story short, there's a whole book about it. 51 00:05:11,456.43197901 --> 00:05:16,496.43197901 I just ended up evangelizing everywhere and preaching total commitment. 52 00:05:16,616.43097901 --> 00:05:20,526.43197901 I guess I must have got that from Billy and his books, other books. 53 00:05:20,556.43197901 --> 00:05:24,516.43197901 I was an avid reader and people responded. 54 00:05:24,606.43197901 --> 00:05:29,126.43197901 And soon I was going door to door in my own town and showing films. 55 00:05:29,126.43197901 --> 00:05:36,416.43197901 And then I was off to university and I just saw how, at least in the States, we had an opportunity to hear the gospel. 56 00:05:36,786.43197901 --> 00:05:38,686.43197901 Everybody had, most people had a Bible. 57 00:05:39,536.43197901 --> 00:05:45,586.43197901 And as I read about nations, even Mexico, where millions didn't have the word of God, that, that impacted me. 58 00:05:45,626.43097901 --> 00:05:49,896.43197901 Permanent life impact that everybody should have at least something of the gospel. 59 00:05:50,536.43197901 --> 00:05:56,96.43197901 Later on, of course, we had things like the Jesus film, the back then Gospels of John and gospel recordings. 60 00:05:56,466.43197901 --> 00:05:58,106.43197901 One of the first weapons I ever used. 61 00:05:58,946.43197901 --> 00:06:06,986.43197901 As God sent us to Mexico and that showed us in Mexico how he could use short term students even in a foreign country. 62 00:06:06,996.43197901 --> 00:06:08,406.43197901 Of course, I was studying Spanish. 63 00:06:09,296.43197901 --> 00:06:17,866.43197901 And it was later on when I moved to Europe with a goal of reaching Afghanistan and the most unreached nations. 64 00:06:18,606.43097901 --> 00:06:22,896.43197901 Before we talked about the 1040 window, Turkey, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq. 65 00:06:23,491.43197901 --> 00:06:24,781.43197901 And the communist world. 66 00:06:24,971.43197901 --> 00:06:31,421.43197901 And so I challenged my best friend who we both left university, where we met Maryville college, he went to Wheaton. 67 00:06:31,421.43197901 --> 00:06:34,81.43147901 I went to Moody and I went out and challenged him. 68 00:06:34,81.43147901 --> 00:06:35,181.43097901 He was going with Wycliffe. 69 00:06:35,241.43197901 --> 00:06:36,71.43197901 I said, Dale. 70 00:06:36,391.43197901 --> 00:06:38,101.43197901 Just forget about this Woodcliffe stuff. 71 00:06:38,401.43197901 --> 00:06:39,621.43197901 You need to go to Turkey. 72 00:06:39,991.43197901 --> 00:06:41,121.43197901 There's 30 million there. 73 00:06:41,131.43197901 --> 00:06:42,101.43197901 Hardly any believers. 74 00:06:42,101.43197901 --> 00:06:44,471.43197901 They got a Bible, but no one seems to have one. 75 00:06:45,501.43197901 --> 00:06:48,465.41509888 So, he we joined and been, we've been together ever since. 76 00:06:48,885.41409888 --> 00:06:56,575.41409888 But it's when I got arrested by the Soviets 60 years next summer, in my first effort to evangelize Russia, that everything changed. 77 00:06:56,575.41409888 --> 00:06:57,885.41409888 I went for a day of prayer. 78 00:06:58,505.41409888 --> 00:07:02,715.41409888 Our work again was just focused on those few extreme unreached nations. 79 00:07:03,410.41409888 --> 00:07:15,660.41409888 But God had a different plan and in a prayer meeting gave me the name Operation Mobilization, the vision to mobilize thousands of Europeans and let them drive to those countries, you know, air traffic and air travel. 80 00:07:15,670.41409888 --> 00:07:18,960.41409888 We never had that much money, you know, it was a huge thing. 81 00:07:19,275.41409888 --> 00:07:22,85.41409888 We're always looking for a low way. 82 00:07:22,85.41409888 --> 00:07:23,645.41409888 We always drove to Mexico. 83 00:07:24,455.41409888 --> 00:07:33,705.41309888 And the next summer, in answer to prayers, I moved from Spain to this country, which was definitely prepared by the Holy Spirit, especially Cambridge and Oxford. 84 00:07:34,335.41309888 --> 00:07:38,515.41409888 And students just responded to this radical discipleship missions. 85 00:07:38,996.10848506 --> 00:07:42,306.10848506 The next summer we had 200, next summer we had 2, 000. 86 00:07:42,886.10848506 --> 00:07:46,556.10848506 That led me to move to India, which became our largest work. 87 00:07:46,576.10848506 --> 00:07:55,536.10848506 Now a large indigenous church movement that led me then to realize that we have 150, 200 vehicles crisscrossing the world, reaching millions. 88 00:07:55,616.10848506 --> 00:07:56,976.10848506 We, we really need a ship. 89 00:07:57,721.10848506 --> 00:08:04,461.10848506 A lot of people thought I was, I'd lost my marbles, but when I announced we're going to get a ship, more people bailed out. 90 00:08:04,681.10848506 --> 00:08:07,401.10848506 But some new ones joined, especially merchant navy people. 91 00:08:07,731.10848506 --> 00:08:11,431.10848506 And of course, we just celebrated 50 years of ship ministry. 92 00:08:12,91.10848506 --> 00:08:13,501.10748506 Meanwhile, I had got married. 93 00:08:14,31.10848506 --> 00:08:22,221.10848506 The woman I met at Moody, you can all see this on the film of my life story, George For Real, and our first son born in Spain, two others born here. 94 00:08:22,956.10848506 --> 00:08:29,385.20959905 So, I mean, in a nutshell, I hope that helps people understand a little bit who this guy is. 95 00:08:29,734.58967767 --> 00:08:31,462.27102324 Well, no, that's, that's great. 96 00:08:31,731.57663705 --> 00:08:39,541.57663705 Many of the uses of this interview, we hope, is to encourage emerging as well as established leaders in mission. 97 00:08:39,561.57663705 --> 00:08:48,163.06306146 So, looking back on those early years, how do you believe the Lord was developing you for later, leadership? Yeah, I was very fortunate. 98 00:08:48,253.06306146 --> 00:08:53,593.06406146 I went to Moody Bible Institute, where I had solid Training, met godly people. 99 00:08:53,633.06406146 --> 00:08:55,433.06406146 The missions conference was the highlight. 100 00:08:55,873.06406146 --> 00:08:57,633.06406146 Imagine meeting these godly people. 101 00:08:58,263.06406146 --> 00:09:05,243.06406146 that was definitely a part of my vision for the Muslim world, meeting the few who came from the Muslim world. 102 00:09:05,728.06506146 --> 00:09:08,728.06506146 People like Lionel Gurney who founded Red Sea Mission Team. 103 00:09:09,38.06506146 --> 00:09:10,398.06506146 It's all ancient history now. 104 00:09:11,268.06506146 --> 00:09:12,608.06506146 so that's one factor. 105 00:09:13,398.06506146 --> 00:09:22,890.45746324 And then great books is probably the most important thing, including when I almost lost my faith at university, reading books that helped my intellectual problems. 106 00:09:23,267.1241299 --> 00:09:26,267.1241299 And then of course, getting out in the action. 107 00:09:26,437.1241299 --> 00:09:27,297.1241299 I mean, I learned. 108 00:09:28,37.1251299 --> 00:09:28,807.1251299 by doing. 109 00:09:29,183.79179657 --> 00:09:32,233.79179657 In those days Moody didn't even, you know, give a degree. 110 00:09:32,743.79179657 --> 00:09:34,853.79179657 I did a three year course in two years. 111 00:09:34,853.79179657 --> 00:09:40,733.79179657 I won't explain that because I wanted to get into Mexico and get the work established. 112 00:09:41,293.79079657 --> 00:09:50,603.79179657 We had opened a lot of bookshops and correspondence course and some radio and turned it over to Mexicans and I wanted to get to Spain and learn Russian and get to Russia. 113 00:09:50,633.79179657 --> 00:09:53,53.79179657 So I was a little bit in a hurry, probably made mistakes. 114 00:09:53,413.79179657 --> 00:09:57,793.79179657 I talk about a lot of mistakes in my brand new book, which is really hot right now. 115 00:09:58,223.79179657 --> 00:10:01,183.79179657 Confessions of a toxic perfectionist. 116 00:10:01,663.79179657 --> 00:10:04,313.79179657 I put a blog on my Facebook about this this morning. 117 00:10:04,323.79179657 --> 00:10:05,953.79179657 That really is, really is hot. 118 00:10:06,377.1241299 --> 00:10:09,47.1241299 And another factor is taking steps of faith. 119 00:10:09,117.1231299 --> 00:10:15,837.1231299 And realizing God could use, even though I had these struggles, I saw God use me in the early years of my high school. 120 00:10:16,197.1231299 --> 00:10:23,267.1231299 The first time I preached to a big crowd at Christmas break, about 125 stood up to believe on Jesus. 121 00:10:24,37.1231299 --> 00:10:27,37.1231299 So that's not the way it is for every leader. 122 00:10:27,127.1231299 --> 00:10:29,447.1231299 Many leaders have a lot of discouragements first. 123 00:10:30,182.1231299 --> 00:10:32,792.1231299 But I had continual encouragements. 124 00:10:33,392.1231299 --> 00:10:44,792.2221299 There were discouragements mixed in, so, you know, everybody's road is, different, but then I had a vision that global missions would not be an American thing. 125 00:10:44,802.2231299 --> 00:10:51,782.2231299 Americans dominated missions in the fifties, so I really didn't want Americans to be involved in the early stage. 126 00:10:51,782.2231299 --> 00:10:52,412.2231299 It changed. 127 00:10:53,122.2231299 --> 00:10:57,72.2231299 And so it was really born an authentic European work. 128 00:10:57,482.2231299 --> 00:11:00,942.2231299 Which you know how many nations that involves here in Europe. 129 00:11:01,442.2231299 --> 00:11:23,702.2231299 So we overnight became multinational, which enabled us later to easily relate to Africans, to Latin Americans, to Indians, because they could see we weren't nationality, we were, and we weren't super white and God was doing things in a sense ahead of the times because he was, he's, he was preparing for something major. 130 00:11:23,702.2231299 --> 00:11:25,312.2231299 And this was to multiply. 131 00:11:25,797.2231299 --> 00:11:30,387.2231299 About 25, 000 OM graduates are in leadership across the world today. 132 00:11:30,467.2231299 --> 00:11:33,17.2231299 About 200, 000 have been trained and been on OM. 133 00:11:33,17.3231299 --> 00:11:34,657.2231299 A lot of leadership training. 134 00:11:35,407.2231299 --> 00:11:40,717.2231299 And so I'd estimate about 25, 000 are in leadership now around the globe, often in their local church. 135 00:11:41,292.2231299 --> 00:11:48,362.2231299 We had always a strong emphasis on local church, partly because of Dale's background, perhaps more than mine. 136 00:11:48,362.2231299 --> 00:11:55,352.2231299 And then other leaders who joined, especially from the Open Brethren movement, my successor came from the Open Brethren movement. 137 00:11:55,402.2231299 --> 00:11:58,982.2231299 OM is the first movement, interdenominational, they ever related to. 138 00:11:59,462.2231299 --> 00:12:09,372.2231299 They were very much, if you know that particular movement, which is much bigger, especially in missions than people realize, you know, it's just an amazing movement whose roots are here. 139 00:12:09,917.2231299 --> 00:12:10,677.2231299 in the UK. 140 00:12:10,697.2231299 --> 00:12:23,380.55546324 Now, some of the churches here have shriveled because they wouldn't make change, but others have grown and it's been a major, a major factor in our, DNA to draw in from people like William McDonald. 141 00:12:23,390.55646324 --> 00:12:26,90.55646324 Anyway, there's a little touch on that question. 142 00:12:26,90.55646324 --> 00:12:28,770.55546324 You know, with a preacher, you ask him a question, you get another answer. 143 00:12:28,770.65546324 --> 00:12:31,320.55646324 I'll try to be shorter. 144 00:12:31,890.55646324 --> 00:12:33,590.55646324 No, no, this is great. 145 00:12:33,831.59324442 --> 00:12:37,191.59324442 Have there been mentors for you along the way? Yeah. 146 00:12:37,191.59324442 --> 00:12:37,671.59324442 Hundreds. 147 00:12:38,421.59324442 --> 00:12:38,631.59324442 Yeah. 148 00:12:38,631.59324442 --> 00:12:40,41.59324442 I was mentored more by books. 149 00:12:40,431.59324442 --> 00:12:41,191.59324442 Billy Graham. 150 00:12:41,731.59324442 --> 00:12:44,391.59324442 Second most influential man was Oswald J. 151 00:12:44,391.59324442 --> 00:12:44,871.59324442 Smith. 152 00:12:46,161.59324442 --> 00:12:49,421.59224442 Definitely at first year university meeting Dale Roton. 153 00:12:49,461.59224442 --> 00:12:50,921.59274442 I would consider him a mentor. 154 00:12:50,921.59274442 --> 00:12:52,411.59224442 We didn't have that terminology. 155 00:12:52,411.59224442 --> 00:12:57,74.92657775 We weren't thinking down that road, but I think he was, I've always esteemed him. 156 00:12:57,624.92657775 --> 00:13:06,274.92557775 Though, as we look back on our lives, because I kept challenging him to other things, he was a guy that more or less did what I felt he should do. 157 00:13:06,334.92657775 --> 00:13:11,984.92557775 So Turkey, then the communist world, then the ship, amazing person. 158 00:13:12,38.25891108 --> 00:13:15,548.25991108 But I think the stronger influences were through books. 159 00:13:15,778.25991108 --> 00:13:18,628.25991108 And then sometimes I'd meet that author. 160 00:13:19,128.25991108 --> 00:13:20,358.25991108 Like meeting Oswald J. 161 00:13:20,358.25991108 --> 00:13:25,68.25991108 Smith in the elevator, we call it a lift here in London, in Moody Bible Institute. 162 00:13:25,148.25991108 --> 00:13:28,168.25991108 I mean, later we became close friends. 163 00:13:28,938.25991108 --> 00:13:33,128.25891108 So in that kind of mentorship, you know, different levels of mentorship. 164 00:13:33,778.25891108 --> 00:13:38,368.25991108 But I never had the close kind where we, you know, just sit down and one guy is discipling me. 165 00:13:38,518.25991108 --> 00:13:41,688.25991108 I read about it you know, from the navigator's material. 166 00:13:42,764.92657775 --> 00:13:45,794.92657775 you know, I think that that was part of our DNA. 167 00:13:46,374.92657775 --> 00:13:57,914.92657775 A man to man discipleship, but not necessarily in our early days, very structured in the mentoring was happening, but it wasn't so structured, and I'm not even sure we had that name back then. 168 00:13:58,444.92657775 --> 00:13:59,704.92657775 You know, I'm an old buzzer. 169 00:13:59,744.92657775 --> 00:14:01,344.92657775 You're not looking at a teenager. 170 00:14:02,94.92657775 --> 00:14:25,874.50449748 Well, now, to flip the other side of the coin, I've had least, I would say, three people talk about the invitation from you to spend a year, to give a year, or maybe to, traveling with you, to be with you, to do life with you, to Essentially be mentored by you in a very organic and intensive way. 171 00:14:26,81.17116415 --> 00:14:33,118.00073422 Tell us a little bit about how that started how you look at that practice, how you practice that practice. 172 00:14:33,118.00073422 --> 00:14:35,112.99973422 Yeah, it's a good question. 173 00:14:35,353.00073422 --> 00:14:41,422.99973422 And I realized now it's because from day one, I was a team player and you had to be a team. 174 00:14:42,102.99973422 --> 00:14:45,43.00123422 So I recruited my new, my roommate to go to Mexico. 175 00:14:45,43.00123422 --> 00:14:45,882.99973422 We're still friends. 176 00:14:46,482.99973422 --> 00:14:48,163.00073422 And then I recruited Deo Rota. 177 00:14:48,193.00073422 --> 00:14:50,53.00073422 We were at a little place called Maribel College. 178 00:14:51,158.00073422 --> 00:14:58,728.00073422 And they, of course, went their separate ways, more intellectual road out to Wheaton and Wycliffe and so I recruited three or four. 179 00:14:59,388.00073422 --> 00:15:01,308.00123422 I always had someone with me. 180 00:15:01,308.00123422 --> 00:15:07,818.00173422 I think it was in my mind that one of the most important ways someone's going to learn is just being with you. 181 00:15:08,573.00173422 --> 00:15:10,753.00173422 And Oswald, I think it was Oswald J. 182 00:15:10,753.00173422 --> 00:15:22,293.00173422 Smith said this, if you want to see someone you're discipling or whatever terminology you're using, really transform, take him with you when you see God do great things. 183 00:15:23,443.00073422 --> 00:15:27,43.00073422 So the, you know, I was taking huge numbers of meetings. 184 00:15:27,353.00173422 --> 00:15:29,163.00173422 People were coming to Christ all the time. 185 00:15:29,163.00173422 --> 00:15:31,123.00173422 People were recommitting their lives. 186 00:15:31,773.00173422 --> 00:15:38,313.00173422 And so I always had people with me and that was always just so, just so important for them. 187 00:15:38,583.00173422 --> 00:15:42,883.00173422 And then somewhere along the line, I realized, well, maybe we were always careful with money. 188 00:15:42,913.00173422 --> 00:15:52,473.00173422 And so when I traveled long distances, Spending that money on air tickets, I often just went on my own because we didn't, and that changed later. 189 00:15:52,523.00173422 --> 00:15:57,43.00073422 So a number of the early gophers, we call them, they got left behind quite a time. 190 00:15:57,53.00073422 --> 00:16:00,913.00073422 Then I just grabbed someone else when I arrived in Singapore. 191 00:16:00,913.00173422 --> 00:16:04,317.90173422 I grabbed someone else, but it evolved into having someone. 192 00:16:04,908.00173422 --> 00:16:08,718.00173422 in a more fixed program, which is what you were referring to. 193 00:16:08,718.00173422 --> 00:16:12,58.00173422 And to be honest, that's one of the most important things in my life. 194 00:16:12,478.00173422 --> 00:16:18,948.00073422 I'm hyper pragmatic, and I feel I was blessed more by these guys than I was able to bless them. 195 00:16:19,558.00173422 --> 00:16:22,858.00073422 But they saw my struggles, they saw the reality. 196 00:16:23,263.00173422 --> 00:16:24,663.00173422 of worship in my life. 197 00:16:25,353.00173422 --> 00:16:28,633.00173422 The greatest tribute I ever heard from a gopher in front of the whole ship. 198 00:16:28,863.00173422 --> 00:16:31,63.00173422 I never even knew he was thinking along that line. 199 00:16:31,713.00173422 --> 00:16:38,914.23568191 Is that he just felt that the greatest thing he had learned from me was he was put on the spot in front of the ship crew was about worship. 200 00:16:39,324.23568191 --> 00:16:42,4.2356819 And that all the time, every time he seemed to look at me, I was worshiping. 201 00:16:43,102.492198 --> 00:16:45,572.492198 you know, most people don't put me in the worship box. 202 00:16:45,592.492198 --> 00:16:49,102.491198 They put me in pragmatic evangelism box. 203 00:16:49,102.492198 --> 00:16:53,583.0358403 We love to put people in boxes, right? just don't try to do it to God. 204 00:16:54,493.0358403 --> 00:16:57,403.0358403 I talk about that in my other book, Messiology, by the way. 205 00:16:57,423.0358403 --> 00:17:00,643.0358403 I give these away free, but I'm not just trying to make some money. 206 00:17:01,483.0358403 --> 00:17:01,943.0358403 I don't know. 207 00:17:02,43.0358403 --> 00:17:03,383.0358403 No, thanks for mentioning that. 208 00:17:03,443.0358403 --> 00:17:08,253.0348403 And I'm in touch with almost all those gophers, over 60 of them, all but one. 209 00:17:08,263.0358403 --> 00:17:17,723.0358403 One has overthrown his faith and he's a brother that had enormous, enormous problems, but he went really well for a while, but he's crashed. 210 00:17:17,723.0358403 --> 00:17:19,813.0358403 But the last chapter is not written. 211 00:17:20,218.0358403 --> 00:17:27,918.0358403 But every one of those other 60 are going on for Jesus and quite a number of missionaries, not as many as I dreamed. 212 00:17:28,853.0358403 --> 00:17:37,503.0358403 Becoming a missionary, especially from certain places, long term missionary, even the United States now, is much more difficult than people realize. 213 00:17:38,23.0348403 --> 00:17:46,963.0358403 And so even though they did not end up out of the mission field, most of them were there for some years, longer term, I esteem them and honor them. 214 00:17:47,213.0358403 --> 00:17:52,323.0358403 And there's many ways they can be involved in the kingdom, even if they're stuck in their own country. 215 00:17:52,773.0358403 --> 00:17:53,153.0358403 Right. 216 00:17:54,273.0358403 --> 00:18:02,214.5159775 Well, we'll be praying for the one out of the 60 that he's John Mark who may be I think he went a little further than John Mark, but that's okay. 217 00:18:02,714.5159775 --> 00:18:06,532.6097293 Well, we'll pray that he comes back and is a, is a, man like John Mark in the end. 218 00:18:06,793.9447315 --> 00:18:11,840.321603 for these gophers? Let me just say this, one of the very first gophers, and we never used that name. 219 00:18:12,710.322603 --> 00:18:16,540.322603 Was an African American, my closest friend from Moody. 220 00:18:17,220.322603 --> 00:18:25,510.322603 And he pioneered the work here in England, this big, big black guy would sing in my meetings and he's only gone to heaven a couple years ago. 221 00:18:25,510.322603 --> 00:18:46,365.322603 There's a book of his life story, but I think in this day, when everybody's just talking about this issue and people are so negative, I don't think the people realize that, yeah, we all have our failures, but in the body of Christ, often we were way ahead of the secular world in embracing people of all color and all culture. 222 00:18:46,545.322603 --> 00:18:50,85.321603 OM pioneered international marriage, interracial marriage. 223 00:18:50,725.321603 --> 00:18:59,835.422603 Even when Moody said to my Chinese brother and my new English, New England girlfriend I don't know that they really couldn't, you know, in that culture, couldn't date. 224 00:19:00,185.422603 --> 00:19:01,85.422603 I said, forget it. 225 00:19:01,85.422603 --> 00:19:02,585.421603 You just, you know, just go for it. 226 00:19:02,595.422603 --> 00:19:03,565.422603 Of course, they got married. 227 00:19:03,575.422603 --> 00:19:04,445.422603 They're still married. 228 00:19:05,165.422603 --> 00:19:10,5.422603 It would have been considered like a gopher, but we didn't use that term in that day. 229 00:19:10,134.2506506 --> 00:19:11,814.2516506 anyway, I think that's very relevant. 230 00:19:12,274.2516506 --> 00:19:15,104.2516506 And I, I feel it's, sad that everybody's so negative. 231 00:19:15,629.2516506 --> 00:19:21,119.2516506 about all of this and fail to acknowledge what God has been doing among his people. 232 00:19:21,119.2516506 --> 00:19:22,569.2516506 Though we all have a long way to go. 233 00:19:22,589.2506506 --> 00:19:29,409.2506506 What human being has no prejudice whatsoever? This again is the theme of my new book on toxic perfectionism. 234 00:19:30,159.2506506 --> 00:19:39,879.9801188 And besides going along with you, would these apprentices have any kind of curriculum? Oh, yeah. 235 00:19:40,514.2516506 --> 00:19:41,284.2516506 This is a job. 236 00:19:41,294.2516506 --> 00:19:42,724.2516506 This is a tough job. 237 00:19:43,294.2516506 --> 00:19:44,774.2516506 They had to study a lot. 238 00:19:45,324.2516506 --> 00:19:48,264.2516506 I birthed another program on the ship called Intensive Training. 239 00:19:48,274.2516506 --> 00:19:52,14.2516506 That was 15 men had to do exactly what they were told. 240 00:19:52,804.2516506 --> 00:19:54,194.2516506 for a short period of time. 241 00:19:54,584.2516506 --> 00:19:58,184.2516506 So memorized scriptures, all kinds of physical feats. 242 00:19:58,184.2516506 --> 00:20:06,350.9163173 It was patterned after what was known as Eastward Bound and that whole famous thing started by one of the royal family. 243 00:20:06,840.9173173 --> 00:20:12,160.9173173 So anyway, that was a separate thing, but I incorporated some of that into my own gopher program. 244 00:20:12,270.9173173 --> 00:20:20,180.9173173 So it was a tough program and long hours, not any nine to five, 24 hours where you're allowed to sleep. 245 00:20:21,90.9173173 --> 00:20:23,30.9173173 And of course I'm big in distributing books. 246 00:20:23,30.9173173 --> 00:20:25,410.9173173 They had to sit at book tables, large tables. 247 00:20:25,420.9173173 --> 00:20:26,690.9173173 They had to blow up the globe. 248 00:20:27,450.9173173 --> 00:20:32,250.9163173 And I'll never forget one gopher completely goofed at the great Urbana convention. 249 00:20:32,330.9173173 --> 00:20:37,260.5222348 He's supposed to handle the globe and he got sidetracked and then he couldn't get in the building. 250 00:20:37,490.5222348 --> 00:20:39,970.5222348 And my PA, Vera, who's sitting right over here. 251 00:20:40,300.5222348 --> 00:20:43,820.5222348 You had another globe, no? Anyway, she rescued me. 252 00:20:44,610.5222348 --> 00:20:46,110.5222348 It was at the Urbana convention. 253 00:20:46,650.5222348 --> 00:20:48,360.5222348 So we learned from mistakes. 254 00:20:49,570.5212348 --> 00:20:52,520.5212348 And I made some mistakes and we grew together. 255 00:20:52,860.5212348 --> 00:20:54,970.5222348 But it was a lot of work involved. 256 00:20:55,0.5212348 --> 00:20:57,190.5222348 It was not academic. 257 00:20:57,190.6222348 --> 00:21:01,940.5222348 It wasn't like my good friend, John Stott's study assistant, who probably did some work as well. 258 00:21:02,160.5222348 --> 00:21:03,510.5222348 Though that was incorporated. 259 00:21:03,570.5222348 --> 00:21:04,720.5222348 It was more work. 260 00:21:04,730.5222348 --> 00:21:06,190.5222348 Anything, anytime, anywhere. 261 00:21:06,220.5222348 --> 00:21:09,250.5222348 Some of them later referred to it in humor as slavery. 262 00:21:09,807.1889015 --> 00:21:10,687.1889015 And no girls. 263 00:21:11,337.1889015 --> 00:21:11,757.1889015 Men only. 264 00:21:11,757.1889015 --> 00:21:12,117.1889015 Yeah. 265 00:21:12,791.9455906 --> 00:21:14,601.9465906 you mentioned failure. 266 00:21:15,261.9455906 --> 00:21:21,921.9465906 I found that younger leaders today are hungry to know that they don't have to be perfect. 267 00:21:22,501.9465906 --> 00:21:29,831.9465906 And that the heroes of the faith who have gone before that it's actually helpful to know that they made mistakes as well. 268 00:21:30,453.3893211 --> 00:21:39,936.5805653 How did failure play a part in your life? And did growing through that handling, responding to failure shape you and your leadership? I mean, that's a big question. 269 00:21:40,436.5805653 --> 00:21:49,243.2472319 Keep in mind in those days, largely the whole Christian world was a shame based culture and many believed that. 270 00:21:49,763.2472319 --> 00:21:51,323.2472319 Their nation was Christian. 271 00:21:51,413.2472319 --> 00:21:54,403.2472319 Many Americans believe that America was Christian. 272 00:21:55,203.2472319 --> 00:22:00,453.2472319 I never quite could fall for that, but I believe it did have, you know, major Christian influence. 273 00:22:00,453.2472319 --> 00:22:02,153.2472319 Everything is, is a cocktail. 274 00:22:02,643.2472319 --> 00:22:07,53.2472319 Lloyd Jones, by the way, 10 million of his messages had been downloaded. 275 00:22:07,333.2472319 --> 00:22:08,773.2462319 Famous Lloyd Jones from London. 276 00:22:09,173.2472319 --> 00:22:11,343.2462319 He said all nations are pagan. 277 00:22:12,73.2462319 --> 00:22:17,243.2462319 I don't know, maybe I don't go that far, but we have created a shame based culture. 278 00:22:17,833.2472319 --> 00:22:22,583.2472319 Where it's almost impossible for leaders to you know, confess anything. 279 00:22:22,583.2472319 --> 00:22:25,483.2472319 That's a real no no, especially the sexual area. 280 00:22:26,349.9138986 --> 00:22:37,509.8138986 I in reading different books and reading the scriptures was very uncomfortable with this and especially the way divorced people were treated, the way gay people were treated. 281 00:22:38,29.9138986 --> 00:22:42,359.9138986 Even though I was sort of holding to a conservative line from the scripture. 282 00:22:42,899.9138986 --> 00:22:47,859.9138986 I thought the sins of the church against these people, it's an issue in the news here today. 283 00:22:48,479.9138986 --> 00:22:56,399.9138986 The sins of the church and Christians against these people is just as great as their sin, depending on what, you know, exactly what it was. 284 00:22:57,149.9138986 --> 00:23:06,489.9138986 Now, that has greatly reduced, but young leaders are naive if they think today it's so much better and that the shame based culture is gone. 285 00:23:06,539.9138986 --> 00:23:08,639.9138986 It has many ways of reproducing. 286 00:23:09,309.9138986 --> 00:23:11,129.9138986 And so leaders do need wisdom. 287 00:23:11,889.9138986 --> 00:23:19,932.5822947 What, you know, what they share and, you can have people so quickly turn against you and put the knife in the back and ruin your ministry. 288 00:23:19,932.5822947 --> 00:23:26,602.5822947 Leadership to me is tougher than ever because of social media, because of the decreased value of truth. 289 00:23:27,452.5822947 --> 00:23:29,692.5822947 And almost anybody can be accused. 290 00:23:29,702.5822947 --> 00:23:31,412.5822947 And right now the Royal family. 291 00:23:31,692.5822947 --> 00:23:32,742.5822947 is being accused. 292 00:23:32,742.5822947 --> 00:23:34,42.5822947 I put that in my blog. 293 00:23:34,682.5822947 --> 00:23:40,202.0482794 Oh, the big news is that we discovered the royal family's not perfect. 294 00:23:40,682.0482794 --> 00:23:42,722.0482794 Well, some of us already knew that. 295 00:23:43,812.0482794 --> 00:23:46,432.0477794 Of course, this is by the way, the theme of my new book. 296 00:23:46,432.0477794 --> 00:23:49,556.9482794 So this blog was to try to get them to read my book. 297 00:23:50,217.0482794 --> 00:24:01,972.0265998 But I think first of all, sharing with a smaller group your struggles, and they can then also counsel you whether this is something that needs to, go more, more widely. 298 00:24:02,412.0265998 --> 00:24:09,512.0265998 But the bottom line in one of the chapters in one of my books, Messiology, is if you don't want to get hurt, don't play rugby. 299 00:24:09,512.0275998 --> 00:24:13,72.0275998 In America, we say if you don't want to get hurt, don't play football. 300 00:24:13,692.0275998 --> 00:24:18,876.9275998 And if you don't want to get hurt, you don't want to be a Christian leader, and you don't want to be a feminist. 301 00:24:19,707.0275998 --> 00:24:26,438.1716262 Now, on this planet, I'm not sure what you should be, but, I think of Luke 14. 302 00:24:26,448.1716262 --> 00:24:27,548.1716262 You count the cost. 303 00:24:28,438.1716262 --> 00:24:31,798.1716262 And make sure you know that, again, A. 304 00:24:31,838.1716262 --> 00:24:32,178.1716262 W. 305 00:24:32,228.1716262 --> 00:24:38,635.6025016 Tozer's writings were a deep impact on our movement, dealing with superficiality, dealing with you know, ego. 306 00:24:39,90.6025016 --> 00:24:47,349.4198002 And one of our leaders who was my successor, Peter Maiden, he wrote a book Building on the Rock, and I got a copy of it right here. 307 00:24:47,689.4198002 --> 00:24:53,299.4198002 And he, he came from this brethren background, totally shame based, and he had the courage to share his story. 308 00:24:54,419.4198002 --> 00:24:59,499.4198002 His life, even in ministry, was all I, my, me, and God had to break him. 309 00:24:59,936.0864669 --> 00:25:12,76.0854669 The word brokenness became an important part of our movement as we had these prayer meetings and sometimes we were all men and we would acknowledge, you know, our struggle with lust, our struggle with pornography. 310 00:25:12,716.0864669 --> 00:25:13,996.0864669 And God broke us. 311 00:25:15,106.0864669 --> 00:25:19,726.0864669 So that's why books like Calvary Road became required reading in our work. 312 00:25:20,226.0864669 --> 00:25:26,266.0864669 And I still feel this emphasis on the crucified life, dealing with the self life, is greatly neglected. 313 00:25:26,966.0854669 --> 00:25:31,395.9864669 And as I counsel different men, I'm shocked the way some of these men have behaved. 314 00:25:31,876.0864669 --> 00:25:32,596.0864669 in their home. 315 00:25:32,596.0864669 --> 00:25:34,366.0864669 I thought I was failing in my home. 316 00:25:34,596.0864669 --> 00:25:36,636.0864669 I'm like an angel next to these people. 317 00:25:37,276.0864669 --> 00:25:44,506.0864669 And domestic abuse is way more widespread, even, even I'm sorry to say among Christian leaders. 318 00:25:45,176.0864669 --> 00:25:47,566.0864669 So I'm still preaching that same message. 319 00:25:47,566.0864669 --> 00:25:50,166.0854669 You know, I am crucified with Christ. 320 00:25:50,206.0854669 --> 00:25:53,966.0864669 Nevertheless, I live yet not I, and that to me has to be a daily. 321 00:25:54,231.0864669 --> 00:25:55,81.0864669 experience. 322 00:25:55,471.0864669 --> 00:26:12,231.0859669 And I think in all of my efforts to disciple or mentor, whatever term you want, I wanted to see people become totally focused on Christ and expressing the life of Christ, but then realizing we are going to fail. 323 00:26:12,231.0859669 --> 00:26:13,281.0864669 We are going to sin. 324 00:26:13,341.0864669 --> 00:26:17,951.0864669 If we say we don't sin, first John, we deceive ourselves. 325 00:26:18,241.0864669 --> 00:26:29,249.4198002 And so I, in the last 40 years, A lot stronger on radical grace and Charles Swindoll's book, Grace Awakening, was a major, message to me. 326 00:26:29,469.4198002 --> 00:26:41,207.7531336 But before that came the writings of a unique woman, not known today, a professional writer, Eugenia Price, who started to write about these things and of course upset a lot of people. 327 00:26:41,697.7531336 --> 00:26:52,121.0864669 And this is why I embrace messiology, even though some of these things were wrong and we now can look, we sort of look down our nose at these legalistic churches, way too many books touching on that. 328 00:26:52,371.0864669 --> 00:26:53,801.0864669 That's all they knew. 329 00:26:54,91.0864669 --> 00:26:55,211.0864669 That was their culture. 330 00:26:55,431.0864669 --> 00:26:57,261.0864669 God works within our culture. 331 00:26:57,891.0864669 --> 00:27:11,757.7531336 And I think going to Mexico and living with a Mexican family in my very early days, I was only 19-20, just helped me become very culturally sensitive that people think completely differently. 332 00:27:12,557.7531336 --> 00:27:21,452.7531336 And I feel if people are not willing to really severely adjust to other cultures, letting love cover I was reading that passage again. 333 00:27:21,452.7531336 --> 00:27:23,512.7531336 Love, cover even a multitude of sins. 334 00:27:23,522.7531336 --> 00:27:29,326.0864669 Of course, it's challenging all that out, but I don't think they should should go as missionaries. 335 00:27:30,36.0864669 --> 00:27:36,476.0864669 And now we're going to send a great army of business people and tent makers and, you know, they're going to get jobs. 336 00:27:36,536.0864669 --> 00:27:49,246.0864669 I, I believe in that, but if they're not spirit filled people, if they're not broken people, if they're their own marriages are coming unglued while they're in the middle of Saudi Arabia, you know, doing some kind of job, you know, they should stay at home. 337 00:27:49,741.0864669 --> 00:27:57,471.0864669 I really feel and I've been always misunderstood because people thought I wanted a mass movement of every Tom, Dick and Harry. 338 00:27:57,861.0854669 --> 00:28:03,491.0864669 We were accused of being amateurs by dear Ralph Winter, but that was not our vision at all. 339 00:28:03,671.0864669 --> 00:28:04,641.0864669 It was quality. 340 00:28:04,931.0864669 --> 00:28:15,331.0854669 It was transformation and missions growing out of an army of transformed people, including business people, of course, with their jobs in the middle of Pakistan. 341 00:28:15,331.0854669 --> 00:28:15,931.0854669 Hallelujah. 342 00:28:17,141.0864669 --> 00:28:17,501.0864669 Yeah. 343 00:28:18,551.0864669 --> 00:28:25,674.4188002 What about challenges that you faced in leadership? did you, we talked a little bit about personal failure. 344 00:28:26,204.4198002 --> 00:28:37,524.4208002 What about leadership failure, leadership challenges? No, I was fortunate because I became, as it says in Timothy, I became strong in God before I was 20 years of age. 345 00:28:38,454.4208002 --> 00:28:43,914.4208002 So I've not had these kinds of major failures, which probably in our culture, I would have had to resign. 346 00:28:44,824.4833003 --> 00:28:50,574.4833003 You know, I've shared about perhaps my, one of my greatest failure, a pornographic magazine in a tree not far from here. 347 00:28:51,244.4833003 --> 00:28:57,54.4833003 And I, you know, I've lived over victory over that struggle since I was a young teenager. 348 00:28:57,584.4833003 --> 00:29:01,74.4823003 But that day with that magazine that someone had shot bullet holes through it. 349 00:29:01,74.4833003 --> 00:29:02,564.4833003 I told the story at Urbana. 350 00:29:03,711.1499669 --> 00:29:13,130.8108513 I can only say that my bigger problems were, I was a very relational person and to be a leader as thing got bigger, I had to make hard decisions. 351 00:29:13,130.8108513 --> 00:29:18,0.8108513 I had to ask people to step down and sometimes it got misunderstood. 352 00:29:18,720.8108513 --> 00:29:22,310.8098513 So I, the toughest thing was handling criticism. 353 00:29:22,880.8108513 --> 00:29:29,100.8108513 When I felt really had gone the extra mile for this person and that they were misunderstanding. 354 00:29:29,120.8108513 --> 00:29:34,220.8108513 If it was more clear cut, then I would just quickly, you know, repent and acknowledge it. 355 00:29:35,270.8108513 --> 00:29:42,97.477518 But the thing they didn't teach me in my early years was leadership and the whole people business, which is our passion. 356 00:29:42,387.477518 --> 00:29:43,887.476518 It can get very complicated. 357 00:29:44,377.477518 --> 00:29:47,407.477518 And so you have to be, you have to become strong. 358 00:29:47,427.477518 --> 00:29:56,957.477518 I had to become tougher on actually secular politicians like Margaret Thatcher, who was so tough, even though I didn't agree with everything. 359 00:29:57,537.477518 --> 00:30:02,167.476518 And later, by the way, when she stepped down, it seems she was a woman of faith of some kind. 360 00:30:02,737.477518 --> 00:30:04,227.477518 And her granddaughter certainly is. 361 00:30:04,912.477518 --> 00:30:09,332.477518 But I was challenged often by secular people who were handling, unbelievable. 362 00:30:09,342.477518 --> 00:30:10,802.477518 Imagine what I went through in my life. 363 00:30:10,802.477518 --> 00:30:14,532.477518 The Korean war was born during the first second world war. 364 00:30:14,532.477518 --> 00:30:16,452.476518 Then the Korean war, the Vietnam war. 365 00:30:16,452.477518 --> 00:30:18,62.477518 I went to Vietnam during the war. 366 00:30:18,232.477518 --> 00:30:19,932.476518 I wasn't in the military. 367 00:30:20,482.477518 --> 00:30:21,632.477518 So I learned. 368 00:30:22,687.478518 --> 00:30:24,137.478518 At that time, you just got to be tough. 369 00:30:24,157.478518 --> 00:30:25,117.478518 You're going to be hurt. 370 00:30:25,827.478518 --> 00:30:28,937.478518 You're going to feel maybe misunderstood, but you've got to go for it. 371 00:30:28,937.478518 --> 00:30:34,57.478518 You've got, and the miracle of my life is I made hundreds, hundreds of hard decisions. 372 00:30:34,737.477518 --> 00:30:45,147.477518 And at this stage of my life, I look back, how in the world did I do that? I look further back and realize God was preparing me. 373 00:30:45,447.477518 --> 00:30:48,547.477518 I was trained in leadership in the Boy Scouts starting when I was 13. 374 00:30:49,397.477518 --> 00:30:51,477.477518 They sent me to a shift leadership training camp. 375 00:30:51,907.477518 --> 00:30:54,757.477518 I was president of my class in primary school. 376 00:30:54,827.477518 --> 00:30:56,477.477518 I don't understand these things now. 377 00:30:56,987.477518 --> 00:31:00,547.477518 I was the head of the student body raising money in my high school. 378 00:31:00,767.476518 --> 00:31:03,247.477518 So in a sense, God prepared me. 379 00:31:03,787.476518 --> 00:31:11,57.477518 Though these weaknesses were there, somehow God, you know, God went out and a lot of people expected me to crash. 380 00:31:11,597.477518 --> 00:31:18,97.477518 Can you believe it? 82 people are still, you know, expecting I might crash because some old buzzard founders, they do crash. 381 00:31:19,17.477518 --> 00:31:19,657.477518 in the end. 382 00:31:19,727.477518 --> 00:31:21,547.477518 So, you know, I'm not taking any chances. 383 00:31:22,47.477518 --> 00:31:22,437.477518 Yeah. 384 00:31:23,187.477518 --> 00:31:25,537.477518 I'm very accountable, especially to my wife. 385 00:31:26,427.477518 --> 00:31:27,757.477518 My life's an open book. 386 00:31:28,290.8108513 --> 00:31:35,444.631713 What have you learned about organizational culture that might serve current or future leaders? Yeah. 387 00:31:35,444.631713 --> 00:31:37,484.632713 I have a chapter in my book, Messyology. 388 00:31:37,524.632713 --> 00:31:45,244.632713 Why are we so dogmatic? And I just feel so often in so many areas, leadership training. 389 00:31:45,809.632713 --> 00:31:47,369.632713 Structure, governance. 390 00:31:47,779.632713 --> 00:31:49,219.632713 You know, I've been through all these things. 391 00:31:49,359.632713 --> 00:31:52,129.632713 Oh, am I, I was pressured into bringing in consultants. 392 00:31:52,879.632713 --> 00:32:05,122.9660464 There's a lot of total answer ism and one up ism and not enough embracing the mess and, you know, seeking what we feel is the best way for us without condemning others. 393 00:32:05,882.9660464 --> 00:32:15,87.9660464 In the early days, those of us who didn't ask for funds, And I rejected this, but I saw it happen among other groups that didn't believe in raising money. 394 00:32:15,127.9660464 --> 00:32:20,557.9660464 Going back to George Mueller, still one of my heroes, then Hudson Taylor, still a big thing here in the UK. 395 00:32:21,657.9660464 --> 00:32:43,149.6162938 And we threw that over in in the mid eighties, one of the most important steps in our movement that really led to much more growth and much more sanity because you really do feel you're one up from those who raise money, you know, like OJ Smith, the greatest fundraisers in history, Billy Graham and William Booth and, you know, a few thousand others. 396 00:32:43,819.6162938 --> 00:32:47,579.6162938 And that's one of the reasons I turned away from that more narrow approach, even though. 397 00:32:47,964.6162938 --> 00:32:50,824.6162938 People really esteemed me that this was the best way. 398 00:32:50,834.6162938 --> 00:32:53,164.6162938 And sometimes they gave me funds. 399 00:32:53,724.6162938 --> 00:32:59,584.6162938 And of course, how that works, humanly speaking, you create a culture where people understand your language. 400 00:32:59,984.6162938 --> 00:33:04,414.6152938 So when you just present a prayer request and I raised money for the first ship. 401 00:33:05,334.6162938 --> 00:33:06,334.6162938 under that culture. 402 00:33:06,404.6162938 --> 00:33:07,864.6162938 So I didn't have to ask for money. 403 00:33:08,94.6162938 --> 00:33:14,554.6162938 You just share the vision and the prayer requests, the people that know you, they understand. 404 00:33:14,944.6152938 --> 00:33:23,854.6152938 But when something goes global, goes international, what one culture the UK understands is completely misunderstood in other cultures. 405 00:33:24,74.6162938 --> 00:33:31,484.6162938 And so we became honest, like 2 Corinthians chapter eight and nine in sharing about money, trying to be very, very careful. 406 00:33:32,316.2829605 --> 00:33:38,856.2829605 and that throws me to another very important thing is that leaders, we have to be ready to change. 407 00:33:39,586.2829605 --> 00:33:42,846.2829605 But often if we're in an older, remember I had a brand new organization. 408 00:33:43,96.2829605 --> 00:33:44,96.2819605 I started myself. 409 00:33:44,651.2829605 --> 00:33:49,591.2829605 You cannot compare that with a leader who's taken up the leadership in an older organization. 410 00:33:49,871.2829605 --> 00:33:54,81.2829605 If he goes too fast with the radical changes, he will blow the place apart. 411 00:33:54,111.2829605 --> 00:33:56,1.2829605 A lot of people will be hurt. 412 00:33:56,771.2829605 --> 00:34:01,181.2819605 And we've seen that with these different big church movements that have come out of different countries. 413 00:34:01,781.2829605 --> 00:34:04,1.2829605 The movement out of Columbia, I won't give the name. 414 00:34:04,331.2829605 --> 00:34:06,881.2829605 I mean, they split churches, they broke relationships. 415 00:34:07,71.2829605 --> 00:34:08,984.6162938 Yet the mystery is God was working. 416 00:34:09,344.6172938 --> 00:34:10,224.6172938 in the middle of it. 417 00:34:10,534.6172938 --> 00:34:25,344.6172938 So anyway, there's some of the challenges and struggles I faced as a leader and was always constantly trying to pass it on to younger leaders from, you know, all even even to this day, which is one of the reasons I agreed on this interview. 418 00:34:25,921.2839605 --> 00:34:27,241.2839605 We're glad you did. 419 00:34:28,407.9506271 --> 00:34:33,247.9506271 A few times you've mentioned culture and understanding culture. 420 00:34:33,817.9506271 --> 00:34:40,77.9506271 Talk to us a little bit about handling the complexity of global leadership or intercultural leadership. 421 00:34:40,474.6172938 --> 00:34:41,474.6172938 It's difficult. 422 00:34:41,554.6172938 --> 00:34:42,454.6172938 It's difficult. 423 00:34:42,494.6172938 --> 00:34:46,404.6172938 And I think the key is you've got to have a faithful core. 424 00:34:47,294.6162938 --> 00:34:50,164.6172938 Our new international leader of OM, Lawrence Tong. 425 00:34:50,234.7172938 --> 00:34:52,434.6172938 He's a team player. 426 00:34:52,434.6172938 --> 00:34:54,784.6172938 He's got a faithful core, includes women. 427 00:34:55,454.6172938 --> 00:34:58,94.6172938 OM is very, I believe, healthy and strong today. 428 00:34:58,94.6172938 --> 00:35:00,694.6172938 We've just had our international leaders meetings. 429 00:35:00,694.6172938 --> 00:35:01,714.6162938 We're still imperfect. 430 00:35:02,494.6162938 --> 00:35:05,924.6172938 And some things today they're stronger on that we were weak on. 431 00:35:06,204.6162938 --> 00:35:08,44.6172938 We were stronger then and they're weaker now. 432 00:35:08,54.6172938 --> 00:35:12,814.6172938 That, that's the way, that's the way life is, but we're always trying to progress. 433 00:35:13,439.6172938 --> 00:35:14,679.6172938 and grow stronger. 434 00:35:15,479.6172938 --> 00:35:22,729.6172938 But I talk about, a lot about culture in my more recent books, that it's just, it's just so important. 435 00:35:23,319.6172938 --> 00:35:26,999.6172938 And when we realize God works with inner person's culture. 436 00:35:28,239.6162938 --> 00:35:34,49.6172938 And so we, I might be from New England and I'm a dedicated Christian and I'm reading about some of the stupidity in Texas. 437 00:35:34,609.6172938 --> 00:35:37,719.6172938 and these people are claiming to be born again, and yet a lot of them are in prison. 438 00:35:38,89.6172938 --> 00:35:42,569.6172938 And uh, When a man gets saved in Texas, he's still a Texan. 439 00:35:43,199.6172938 --> 00:35:44,789.6172938 He's wrapped in that culture. 440 00:35:45,119.6172938 --> 00:35:51,269.6162938 As he grows in Christ, he'll become more and more free, especially if he can get out of Texas. 441 00:35:51,579.6172938 --> 00:35:58,814.5172938 Maybe go live in Boston and love the Boston people or better yet, come to England or go to China, even better. 442 00:35:59,424.6172938 --> 00:36:06,684.6172938 And people were transformed right through the history of OM and other groups because they had to live in another culture. 443 00:36:07,364.6172938 --> 00:36:09,774.6172938 They often made serious mistakes. 444 00:36:09,804.6172938 --> 00:36:12,294.6172938 I arrived in Spain total anti drinking. 445 00:36:12,754.6172938 --> 00:36:14,954.6162938 I signed a pledge I will never touch alcohol. 446 00:36:15,694.6172938 --> 00:36:19,71.2829605 And that influence was huge in the church in America in the 50s. 447 00:36:19,766.2829605 --> 00:36:28,326.2819605 Prohibition is another one of those disastrous mistakes where we try to force non Christians to behave the way we think that Christians should behave. 448 00:36:28,476.2819605 --> 00:36:30,336.2829605 We may not have even been right about that. 449 00:36:30,606.2819605 --> 00:36:44,959.6162938 This is the kind of stuff I touch on in my new book, but I know when I got to Spain and I came back from being arrested by the Soviets and wanted to share the Operation Mobilization idea with the Spanish leaders, we decided to go to the mountains for a retreat. 450 00:36:46,34.6162938 --> 00:36:48,824.6162938 And I was only just getting to know these, these Spaniards. 451 00:36:48,824.6162938 --> 00:36:51,94.6162938 And I was very controversial in Spain. 452 00:36:51,94.6162938 --> 00:36:52,734.6162938 The churches were scared of me. 453 00:36:52,734.6162938 --> 00:36:54,334.6162938 I'm just recruiting their young people. 454 00:36:55,604.6162938 --> 00:36:58,274.6162938 On the way to the mountains, they all stopped at a bar. 455 00:36:58,504.6162938 --> 00:36:59,724.6162938 They all had wine. 456 00:37:00,134.6162938 --> 00:37:12,164.6162938 I thought, you know, what if I recruited a bunch of European winos to evangelize the world? And God, of course, broke me and showed me, and it took time that these were cultural things. 457 00:37:12,829.6162938 --> 00:37:16,839.6162938 And back then the lipstick challenge, the hair challenge. 458 00:37:17,579.6162938 --> 00:37:21,9.6162938 And yet I don't want to be too judgmental of those people. 459 00:37:21,19.6162938 --> 00:37:21,999.6162938 That was their culture. 460 00:37:22,19.6162938 --> 00:37:22,759.6162938 That's all they knew. 461 00:37:22,899.6162938 --> 00:37:28,59.6162938 I was privileged through Mexico and Spain and great teachers to come out of that. 462 00:37:28,69.6162938 --> 00:37:29,699.6162938 I'm still learning, still growing. 463 00:37:30,289.6152938 --> 00:37:32,349.6152938 56 years trying to be more British. 464 00:37:32,419.6152938 --> 00:37:34,49.6152938 Well, I've given up. 465 00:37:34,309.6152938 --> 00:37:38,749.6152938 And by the way, as missionaries, they will often accept us as we are. 466 00:37:38,749.6152938 --> 00:37:40,129.6152938 We, we don't have to pretend. 467 00:37:40,139.6142938 --> 00:37:49,935.9544788 And that's another, you know, that's another whole book, isn't it? We need to be quick to forgive others, but we need to be just as quick to forgive ourselves and not get down on ourselves. 468 00:37:49,975.9544788 --> 00:37:52,305.9534788 Another one of the themes of my book. 469 00:37:52,529.2868122 --> 00:37:52,939.2868122 Yeah. 470 00:37:53,289.2868122 --> 00:37:56,79.2858122 I don't know if that makes any sense, but no, absolutely. 471 00:37:56,129.2868122 --> 00:37:57,459.2858122 I had a lady hear me once. 472 00:37:58,209.2858122 --> 00:38:00,289.2858122 After the message, she really felt confused. 473 00:38:02,2.6191455 --> 00:38:12,572.6181455 Well, I think I hear you say that well, really grace to live a grace filled life is to recognize that God is working on that person. 474 00:38:13,392.6191455 --> 00:38:15,882.6181455 He's got work to do on that person. 475 00:38:15,902.6181455 --> 00:38:16,882.6181455 They're not perfect. 476 00:38:16,882.6181455 --> 00:38:18,72.6181455 They're not going to be perfect. 477 00:38:18,542.6181455 --> 00:38:19,432.6181455 This side of heaven. 478 00:38:20,2.6191455 --> 00:38:23,252.6191455 We can give space for the Lord to, to keep working there. 479 00:38:23,802.6191455 --> 00:38:30,702.6181455 Just like we, we know, at least when we're honest with ourselves, he's still got a lot of work to do on me as well. 480 00:38:31,452.6181455 --> 00:38:33,922.6181455 And new periods of our life, there'll be new challenges. 481 00:38:34,332.6181455 --> 00:38:39,362.6176455 And one of my big burdens is to help people get ready for the senior years. 482 00:38:39,362.6176455 --> 00:38:50,457.6181455 You know, I went through the seventies, motivated every day, serving him every day, and now I'm here in the eighties and it's still coordinating, you know, A large ministry across the world with my tiny team. 483 00:38:50,467.6181455 --> 00:38:52,847.6181455 And that's not the way God leads everyone. 484 00:38:52,847.6181455 --> 00:39:07,317.6171455 We're all different in all different situations, but we should all be serving him until he takes us with whatever limitation, but it means we have to be willing to change and people thought I would not take the big change of stepping out of leadership. 485 00:39:07,317.7171455 --> 00:39:12,97.6181455 I was a hands on leader, 46 years, too much probably. 486 00:39:12,112.7181455 --> 00:39:15,72.6181455 And I stepped out in 2003. 487 00:39:15,412.6181455 --> 00:39:17,922.6181455 We've not had any really major hiccup. 488 00:39:18,592.6181455 --> 00:39:23,42.6181455 A few years ago, we, because I just, I chose total closure again. 489 00:39:23,52.6171455 --> 00:39:34,152.6171455 God doesn't lead everybody that's way, but I'm enmeshed in Europe and European culture, probably, you know, equal to my American, but I'm very involved with Africans, Latin Americans. 490 00:39:34,352.6181455 --> 00:39:35,112.6181455 I speak Spanish. 491 00:39:35,517.6181455 --> 00:39:36,617.6181455 Lived in India for years. 492 00:39:37,137.6181455 --> 00:39:41,653.7019536 So, you know, I just felt I should have total closure, that really worked. 493 00:39:41,703.7019536 --> 00:39:57,343.7024536 Peter Maiden stepped in, now Lawrence Tom when our India crisis took place and they wanted to become an indigenous church movement and people were upset with it, I did come out of the closet and just affirmed India, which I'm still doing. 494 00:39:57,343.7024536 --> 00:39:59,423.7019536 And that controversy is still going though. 495 00:39:59,423.7019536 --> 00:40:01,883.7014536 India without question is OM's greatest work. 496 00:40:02,438.7024536 --> 00:40:03,898.7024536 In all of our history. 497 00:40:03,968.7024536 --> 00:40:06,108.7024536 I mean, it's just unbelievable. 498 00:40:06,498.7024536 --> 00:40:11,578.7024536 A very good sized book could be written about it and we give God all the praise. 499 00:40:11,668.7024536 --> 00:40:19,974.7393906 Yeah, Talk to us about the leader and You mentioned being noticed by one of your apprentices as a worshiper. 500 00:40:20,634.7393906 --> 00:40:23,764.7393906 Talk to us about the leader and their walk with God. 501 00:40:24,208.0727239 --> 00:40:24,428.0727239 Yeah. 502 00:40:24,428.0727239 --> 00:40:27,768.0727239 Again, you know, characters like me now are written off as old fashioned. 503 00:40:27,768.0727239 --> 00:40:32,848.0727239 We believe in having time with God every day, having prayer every day, whether we feel like it or not. 504 00:40:32,858.0727239 --> 00:40:34,78.0717239 Billy Graham did it. 505 00:40:34,98.0727239 --> 00:40:35,558.0727239 He was my spiritual father. 506 00:40:36,48.0727239 --> 00:40:37,948.0727239 So I've never neglected the word of God. 507 00:40:38,493.0727239 --> 00:40:51,329.7383906 And despite all my struggles and questions and things that have never been answered about difficult passages, and I just feel sometimes we have to return to those, you know, those, those basics. 508 00:40:51,929.7383906 --> 00:40:53,846.4060573 And that of course involves, worship. 509 00:40:54,646.4060573 --> 00:40:56,796.4060573 I've just been on a four mile walk. 510 00:40:56,806.4060573 --> 00:40:58,386.4060573 That's a little more than my normal. 511 00:40:58,776.4060573 --> 00:41:03,66.4060573 And a lot of that time I was just quoting scriptures, singing hymns, worshiping. 512 00:41:03,836.4060573 --> 00:41:06,606.4050573 To me, you know, that verse, pray without ceasing. 513 00:41:07,356.4050573 --> 00:41:10,966.4050573 And I've always embraced prayer meetings, prayer meetings. 514 00:41:11,156.4050573 --> 00:41:12,906.4050573 Of course, people wrote that off. 515 00:41:13,926.4050573 --> 00:41:22,6.4050573 Leading Christian leaders, we saw a great drop in spirituality among leaders within the United States back in the 60s and 70s. 516 00:41:22,623.0707239 --> 00:41:25,573.0717239 prayer meetings were, you know, that's what was out. 517 00:41:25,923.0717239 --> 00:41:30,113.0717239 We're all reading these books on how to persuade people and do this and do that. 518 00:41:30,113.0717239 --> 00:41:44,768.0717239 A lot of it was But once prayer is not at the heart, The generator of the church, it's a huge mistake, and that doesn't mean God will be merciful and sometimes the prayers of a few individuals are carrying us along. 519 00:41:45,858.0717239 --> 00:41:57,278.0717239 But I really believe churches and the church and the USA my own still, my own country, has paid a terrible price for prayerlessness and only heaven will tell the story. 520 00:41:57,488.0717239 --> 00:42:00,748.0717239 I believe that missions has suffered because of prayer. 521 00:42:00,748.0717239 --> 00:42:05,698.0717239 Listen to the collapse of missionary prayer meetings and increasing number of missionaries. 522 00:42:06,323.0717239 --> 00:42:11,223.0717239 that I was, you know, have been in touch with in these past years, really struggle in their prayer lives. 523 00:42:11,883.0717239 --> 00:42:18,23.0707239 Quite a few say they can do Bible study, because if they're academically wired, non Christians study the Bible. 524 00:42:18,23.1707239 --> 00:42:30,487.8887007 But prayer meetings and entering in, now singing and worship, of course, that, Has attracted a whole new generation, and that's put under the banner of prayer. 525 00:42:30,907.8887007 --> 00:42:33,517.8887007 And among them, there is some serious prayer. 526 00:42:33,517.8887007 --> 00:42:43,87.8887007 So I, I honor everything that's going on and I don't throw cold water on young people who's praying and meetings are just very different. 527 00:42:43,87.8887007 --> 00:42:45,487.8887007 That's why I've been invited to many of those meetings. 528 00:42:45,487.8887007 --> 00:42:51,67.8887007 I'm very linked with Pete Greg, the leader of this big prayer network here in the uk, speak to his staff. 529 00:42:51,587.8887007 --> 00:42:54,317.8887007 A very different style than what I launched. 530 00:42:54,462.8887007 --> 00:42:55,242.8887007 But that's fine. 531 00:42:55,252.8887007 --> 00:42:56,672.8887007 Let all the flowers bloom. 532 00:42:56,682.8887007 --> 00:42:57,742.8887007 Let's only fight weeds. 533 00:42:58,507.8887007 --> 00:43:01,577.8887007 That's hard enough, fighting weeds, but let's not kill flowers. 534 00:43:02,321.222034 --> 00:43:06,16.7627007 And what about family? said you had four, kids. 535 00:43:06,496.7627007 --> 00:43:06,816.7627007 Three. 536 00:43:07,436.7627007 --> 00:43:08,896.7637007 Three, three kids. 537 00:43:09,296.7637007 --> 00:43:10,106.7637007 I can't count. 538 00:43:10,506.7637007 --> 00:43:14,966.7637007 Three kids and a wife and you were traveling. 539 00:43:14,986.7647007 --> 00:43:18,356.7647007 You were, all of you were traveling at times. 540 00:43:18,376.7647007 --> 00:43:20,116.7647007 Jeff's you was traveling at times. 541 00:43:20,116.7647007 --> 00:43:33,199.7190866 How did you balance the responsibilities of global leadership and Again, we in our generation, we were looking back at a very great generation of men and women of God. 542 00:43:34,209.4015825 --> 00:43:39,919.4005825 I was considered radical, but I wasn't radical in the sense of condemning everybody else. 543 00:43:39,939.4005825 --> 00:43:41,469.4005825 These guys didn't know what they were doing. 544 00:43:42,234.4015825 --> 00:44:13,632.8968039 I may have had that edge, and I talk about that in my new book, but I esteem these people and I realized from my studies, that a lot of them had, had family difficulties, and I was quite stunned that some of their kids went away from Jesus, and so I made a big change in OM that women firstly could choose whether they wanted to be full time in the ministry It's always plenty to do, right? Or whether they wanted to give themselves to the family. 545 00:44:13,932.8968039 --> 00:44:17,932.8968039 And we stepped out of the boarding school thing, which was big among missionaries. 546 00:44:18,412.8968039 --> 00:44:20,792.8968039 Not totally, because people were free. 547 00:44:21,362.8968039 --> 00:44:27,602.8968039 And my old son, who's going on for the Lord today, went to Christian boarding school that I was very linked with here in Wales. 548 00:44:28,352.8968039 --> 00:44:29,782.8968039 But I was very strong. 549 00:44:29,782.8968039 --> 00:44:30,992.8968039 I almost wrote a book about it. 550 00:44:31,22.8968039 --> 00:44:32,412.8968039 I was just looking at the outline. 551 00:44:33,7.8968039 --> 00:44:36,157.8968039 The family has to be absolute priority. 552 00:44:36,607.8968039 --> 00:44:39,337.8968039 I was the exception within our movement. 553 00:44:39,647.8968039 --> 00:44:43,17.8968039 Most people were with their families far more. 554 00:44:43,697.8968039 --> 00:44:47,767.8948039 As this thing grew my wife was very sympathetic. 555 00:44:47,797.8958039 --> 00:44:49,767.8958039 She was radically committed to missions. 556 00:44:50,247.8958039 --> 00:44:52,237.8958039 She never turned back from that commitment. 557 00:44:53,17.8958039 --> 00:44:55,757.8958039 And her bigger emphasis was family. 558 00:44:56,227.8958039 --> 00:44:58,647.8958039 And I didn't lay a lot of stuff, other stuff on her. 559 00:44:59,332.8958039 --> 00:45:05,422.8958039 And as they grew up, she moved back into her, she was a professional secretary when I met her, actually. 560 00:45:05,702.8958039 --> 00:45:09,792.8948039 So she always did a bit of that, but she moved more and more into that role. 561 00:45:09,792.8958039 --> 00:45:18,6.0487721 So every family different, but I try to, and I've been saying this all these years, your family, your wife is priority. 562 00:45:19,106.0487721 --> 00:45:22,256.0487721 And if you've got a wife that, you know, just. 563 00:45:22,766.0487721 --> 00:45:23,606.0487721 is strong. 564 00:45:23,606.0487721 --> 00:45:24,426.0487721 She's tough. 565 00:45:24,726.0487721 --> 00:45:26,716.0487721 she can handle you're being away. 566 00:45:26,726.0487721 --> 00:45:28,556.0487721 It might even be a blessing when you go. 567 00:45:28,956.0487721 --> 00:45:34,476.0477721 But if you have a different kind of wife, you have to live with what God has given you in his providence. 568 00:45:35,126.0487721 --> 00:45:39,33.1911427 And same for a woman looking at her husband, and you have to work at it. 569 00:45:39,453.1891427 --> 00:45:43,303.1891427 Again, we were already having difficulties in the first weeks of our marriage. 570 00:45:43,333.1891427 --> 00:45:45,463.1891427 I talk about it in my books and on my filming. 571 00:45:45,473.1891427 --> 00:45:46,313.1891427 We were so different. 572 00:45:47,178.1901427 --> 00:45:54,578.1901427 We were like from two different planets and she had accepted this word submit to your husband as unto the Lord. 573 00:45:55,318.1901427 --> 00:45:57,208.1901427 And so I was very extreme. 574 00:45:57,208.1901427 --> 00:45:58,628.1901427 I talk about it in my book. 575 00:45:59,88.1901427 --> 00:46:04,668.1891427 She just did everything I asked her and the marriage went really well, like for several weeks. 576 00:46:05,598.1901427 --> 00:46:07,838.1901427 You know, I always say she started to read other verses. 577 00:46:08,918.1901427 --> 00:46:11,238.1901427 Husbands love your wife, that's Christ love the church. 578 00:46:11,668.1901427 --> 00:46:15,898.1901427 This little book in Mexico, we were already struggling in the first weeks of our marriage. 579 00:46:16,828.1901427 --> 00:46:18,328.1901427 Life was hitting us in the nose. 580 00:46:19,588.1901427 --> 00:46:24,918.1881427 Road's chapter Revival in the Home, changed the course of our life. 581 00:46:25,368.1881427 --> 00:46:26,688.1891427 And I often go back to it. 582 00:46:27,418.1891427 --> 00:46:30,278.1891427 It teaches you how to apologize, how to humble yourself. 583 00:46:30,598.1891427 --> 00:46:31,948.1891427 Male Ego. 584 00:46:32,553.1891427 --> 00:46:36,303.1891427 is going to be number one enemy of most of us men. 585 00:46:36,323.1891427 --> 00:46:39,143.1891427 I can't talk about women's ego, that's their responsibility. 586 00:46:39,763.1891427 --> 00:46:53,213.1881427 And if we don't deal with ego often on a daily basis and be willing to humble ourselves, there are great books written on this subject, but of course people, a lot of people aren't reading these books and it's in the word of God. 587 00:46:53,873.1891427 --> 00:46:56,956.5224761 But anyway, that just burns on my heart. 588 00:46:57,383.1891427 --> 00:47:05,843.1881427 Family is priority and we've had a very high level, I believe, of people that have been with us for more than a few years or a year. 589 00:47:06,603.1891427 --> 00:47:07,803.1891427 Very, very encouraging. 590 00:47:07,803.1891427 --> 00:47:12,693.1891427 We've had some divorce, but we were the first mission agency to recruit divorced people. 591 00:47:13,203.1891427 --> 00:47:17,53.1891427 And I really believe we have a balanced biblical approach to divorce. 592 00:47:17,403.1891427 --> 00:47:18,893.1891427 We see people restored. 593 00:47:19,503.1891427 --> 00:47:23,53.1881427 We accept that God gives people a completely second chance. 594 00:47:23,873.1891427 --> 00:47:35,393.1891427 And that too many people today are still swallowing the pill, going back to constant time when they made Christianity official, and then they forced you to keep the rules. 595 00:47:35,433.1891427 --> 00:47:39,583.1886427 And the mistreatment of divorced people is another stigma on the church. 596 00:47:39,583.1886427 --> 00:47:50,886.9895962 We talk about the sexual abuse, which is a huge thing in the news here, especially Ireland, but the general Abuse of divorced people up until recently and it's still happening. 597 00:47:51,206.9895962 --> 00:47:54,676.9895962 Why can't people see this is wrong? People need to be forgiven. 598 00:47:54,676.9895962 --> 00:47:56,506.9895962 They need to be given a second chance. 599 00:47:56,696.9895962 --> 00:47:57,856.9895962 Of course it's messy. 600 00:47:57,866.9885962 --> 00:48:00,6.9895962 I mean, that's, that's what life's about. 601 00:48:00,156.9885962 --> 00:48:05,446.9895962 Was World War II messy? Was Korea messy? Was Vietnam messy? We're now in a spiritual warfare. 602 00:48:06,121.9895962 --> 00:48:09,561.9895962 You know, Ephesians 6, 10 through 20, whole books written on that. 603 00:48:09,811.9895962 --> 00:48:12,861.9895962 So at times it's going to be messy, but God forgives us. 604 00:48:12,891.9895962 --> 00:48:14,221.9895962 He gives us a second chance. 605 00:48:14,221.9895962 --> 00:48:17,708.6552629 He loves us and he blesses second marriages. 606 00:48:18,388.6552629 --> 00:48:20,428.6552629 I know a third marriage that was blessed. 607 00:48:20,498.6552629 --> 00:48:27,798.6542629 Not easy to know this, you know, two other men out there that you were married to, and now you're married and you're running around preaching the gospel. 608 00:48:27,968.6552629 --> 00:48:29,978.6552629 Up till a few years ago, that was anathema. 609 00:48:30,448.6542629 --> 00:48:31,958.6552629 It still is in certain places. 610 00:48:31,978.6552629 --> 00:48:35,268.6552629 So people need to make sure, you know, who they're working together with. 611 00:48:35,930.8526446 --> 00:48:40,940.8521446 Well, I know we don't have much time left, but I wonder if, thinking of younger leaders. 612 00:48:41,615.8521446 --> 00:48:49,524.4259074 Those who are stepping into maybe their first role in ministry or perhaps they've been in the ministry for maybe just five years or so. 613 00:48:50,134.4249074 --> 00:48:57,169.4249074 what kind of advice would you want to give or what word would you want to speak to younger leaders? Well, get lots of people to pray for you. 614 00:48:57,259.4249074 --> 00:49:01,139.4249074 I had a lot of people praying before I ever went to Mexico at 19 years of age. 615 00:49:02,49.4249074 --> 00:49:06,279.4249074 And I just strongly already believed in prayer, started prayer meetings in my high school. 616 00:49:06,819.4249074 --> 00:49:10,9.4239074 So, uh, and I'd be happy to be one of the first to pray for you. 617 00:49:10,9.4249074 --> 00:49:11,189.4249074 So there's my email. 618 00:49:11,759.4239074 --> 00:49:14,689.4249074 I read every email personally, except the ones that don't get to me. 619 00:49:15,479.4249074 --> 00:49:17,226.0915741 And there's my email account. 620 00:49:17,786.0915741 --> 00:49:19,456.0915741 So I'd be happy to pray for you. 621 00:49:19,486.0915741 --> 00:49:23,391.0915741 May not be on a regular, basis, but I can give it a shot. 622 00:49:23,981.0915741 --> 00:49:26,494.4249074 But then the next step is you make a decision. 623 00:49:26,494.4249074 --> 00:49:27,534.4249074 You're not going to give up. 624 00:49:27,534.4249074 --> 00:49:28,964.4249074 You're not going to be discouraged. 625 00:49:29,294.4249074 --> 00:49:30,884.4249074 You put your hands on the plow. 626 00:49:31,94.4249074 --> 00:49:32,314.4249074 You're not going to turn back. 627 00:49:32,324.4239074 --> 00:49:33,244.4244074 You're going to get punched. 628 00:49:33,244.4244074 --> 00:49:34,864.4249074 You're going to get hit below the belt. 629 00:49:35,644.4249074 --> 00:49:44,524.4249074 And in the process, you know, be quick to repent, be quick to come under the blood of our precious Lord Jesus and to embrace reality. 630 00:49:44,574.4249074 --> 00:49:45,934.4249074 To me, this is so important. 631 00:49:45,934.4249074 --> 00:49:47,224.4249074 It is going to be more message. 632 00:49:48,191.0915741 --> 00:49:51,961.0915741 Many of my friends in the States are very agitated now. 633 00:49:51,961.0915741 --> 00:49:53,241.0915741 It's all so messy. 634 00:49:53,411.0915741 --> 00:49:59,321.0915741 What's going to happen to our nation? What's going to happen to the future? This is what history has been about for thousands of years. 635 00:49:59,571.0915741 --> 00:50:04,961.0905741 Do they ever read the old Testament? It's got to be one of the messiest, most horrific books ever written. 636 00:50:05,941.0915741 --> 00:50:11,631.0915741 You know, women going into the tent and putting the nail through the top of the guy's head and people being annihilated. 637 00:50:12,451.0915741 --> 00:50:14,441.0915741 You know, we need to live in a real world. 638 00:50:14,501.0915741 --> 00:50:15,831.0915741 So don't get discouraged. 639 00:50:16,946.0915741 --> 00:50:21,167.5766926 And let some people, if they don't want to work with you let them go. 640 00:50:21,177.5766926 --> 00:50:22,537.5766926 You can't keep everybody. 641 00:50:22,537.5766926 --> 00:50:23,767.5766926 You can't win everybody. 642 00:50:23,777.5766926 --> 00:50:25,67.5766926 You can't please everyone. 643 00:50:25,807.5766926 --> 00:50:32,388.2453422 And if someday, if it is the last thing you want, your own wife that just says, look, I'm, I'm through with you. 644 00:50:32,628.2443422 --> 00:50:33,378.2443422 I don't love you. 645 00:50:33,378.2443422 --> 00:50:34,338.2443422 This isn't working. 646 00:50:35,148.2443422 --> 00:50:36,708.2443422 Pray, but then let her go. 647 00:50:37,498.2443422 --> 00:50:40,488.2443422 see what God has is he gives you a second and third chance. 648 00:50:41,643.2443422 --> 00:50:45,23.2443422 So, embrace radical grace and read some of my books. 649 00:50:46,963.2443422 --> 00:50:55,115.124885 When you think of current leaders who are maybe they're in, the middle of their ministries, Maybe they've just taken on the, leadership. 650 00:50:55,143.5908665 --> 00:50:58,116.0266293 of a mission agency or, a network or church. 651 00:50:58,666.0256293 --> 00:51:09,716.0266293 What would you want to say to, current kind of Well, I, I would, you know, and I've been again saying this since I was almost a teenager, beware of the fiery darts and the number one fiery dart. 652 00:51:10,241.0266293 --> 00:51:12,281.0266293 is, you know, impurity. 653 00:51:13,1.0266293 --> 00:51:17,691.0266293 There's no excuse for some of the major immorality that's gone on among leaders. 654 00:51:17,961.0266293 --> 00:51:20,51.0266293 We've seldom had any of that in our movement. 655 00:51:20,91.0266293 --> 00:51:21,421.0266293 We've had some failures. 656 00:51:21,971.0266293 --> 00:51:23,671.0266293 I just, my heart just aches. 657 00:51:24,251.0266293 --> 00:51:28,871.0266293 over these, and it becomes global now, global scandal. 658 00:51:29,451.0266293 --> 00:51:36,31.0266293 And Paul said, I'd buffet my body and bring it into subjection, lest after preaching to others, I'd be a castaway. 659 00:51:36,501.0256293 --> 00:51:43,691.0256293 And so I would just challenge people to be extra careful in, in the whole sexual area. 660 00:51:43,691.0266293 --> 00:51:45,865.9266293 One of the most complex, messy areas. 661 00:51:46,466.0266293 --> 00:51:54,986.0266293 In all of life, as soon as I get to heaven, I want to get some counseling and talk to somebody up there about how this all is supposed to have worked out down here. 662 00:51:55,796.0266293 --> 00:52:00,296.0261293 And you know, it's just it's just sad when we lose and it's all over the world. 663 00:52:00,296.0261293 --> 00:52:03,26.0256293 If we think this is a USA thing, you know, we're living in cuckoo land. 664 00:52:03,366.0266293 --> 00:52:04,596.0266293 This is all over the world. 665 00:52:05,336.0266293 --> 00:52:08,946.0266293 I've been in a hundred nations of all the nations I've been involved in. 666 00:52:09,176.0266293 --> 00:52:13,316.0256293 Major immorality among leaders, men and women, it usually takes two. 667 00:52:13,946.0266293 --> 00:52:17,356.0266293 And so I would say, you know, you've got to be extra strong in that area. 668 00:52:17,466.0266293 --> 00:52:26,486.0256293 And then in handling money, number two, handling money, make sure you're accountable, don't be tempted to do something, even in a gray area. 669 00:52:27,141.0266293 --> 00:52:33,601.0266293 Because that can come back and really bite you, even though it may have been small, it can be blown out of proportion. 670 00:52:33,671.0266293 --> 00:52:37,211.0256293 Horrific things happen in the handle of money, in God's work. 671 00:52:37,571.0266293 --> 00:52:42,941.0266293 Evangelistic meetings where the guy's taking the offering, we're taking one third of all the money home with him. 672 00:52:43,361.0266293 --> 00:52:46,671.0266293 By the way, if you want horror stories, I got 66 years of them. 673 00:52:47,361.0266293 --> 00:52:56,351.0266293 And then of course, always be alert to your own ego, the subtleness of pride and thinking of yourselves more highly than you. 674 00:52:56,421.1266293 --> 00:52:58,471.0266293 than you should. 675 00:52:59,121.0266293 --> 00:53:07,131.0266293 And I just had another person just share how in the early days of ministry, he really thought he was hot stuff. 676 00:53:07,131.1266293 --> 00:53:09,811.0266293 I mean, this is just ridiculous. 677 00:53:10,81.0266293 --> 00:53:19,551.0266293 How can we ever think we're hot stuff? You know, and so deal with pride, humble yourself, and don't give up. 678 00:53:20,116.0266293 --> 00:53:28,126.0266293 And if God can use such a needy, struggling guy as me every year since my conversion, then he can pretty well use anyone. 679 00:53:28,496.0266293 --> 00:53:31,296.0266293 And some of the greatest feedback I've had from hundreds. 680 00:53:31,746.0266293 --> 00:53:39,526.0266293 is that somehow listening to me, a ray of hope has come to them, perhaps thousands, that God could use them. 681 00:53:40,26.0266293 --> 00:53:46,126.0266293 So I hope you will also pass that on to the people you disciple, that God can use them. 682 00:53:46,136.0256293 --> 00:53:50,516.0256293 One person heard only one sentence about my struggle with pornography. 683 00:53:50,526.0256293 --> 00:53:52,986.0266293 He was completely destroyed by pornography. 684 00:53:53,316.0266293 --> 00:53:54,976.0266293 The biggest thing is you condemn yourself. 685 00:53:55,331.0266293 --> 00:53:59,571.0266293 You think never, God can never use such a sexual nutcase as me. 686 00:53:59,941.0266293 --> 00:54:07,221.0266293 And he heard this one sentence that gave him a ray of hope and helped him come out of that and he became. 687 00:54:07,841.0266293 --> 00:54:18,861.0266293 A missionary and stayed free from that tentacle, which is 10 times more difficult in this generation than it was for my generation because of the smartphone and the internet. 688 00:54:19,96.0024432 --> 00:54:21,125.0178256 it just scares me to think about it. 689 00:54:21,125.0178256 --> 00:54:22,215.0168256 I could be full time. 690 00:54:22,495.0178256 --> 00:54:25,715.0178256 Just counseling and helping people and women too. 691 00:54:25,815.0178256 --> 00:54:29,265.0178256 I've had women come to me and said, you keep talking about men and pornography. 692 00:54:29,555.0178256 --> 00:54:36,55.0178256 More and more women are into the curiosity, the fascination combined with the sexual buzz. 693 00:54:36,515.0178256 --> 00:54:38,335.0178256 So it's, it's going to be a battle. 694 00:54:38,595.0178256 --> 00:54:40,105.0178256 Put that whole armor on. 695 00:54:40,640.0178256 --> 00:54:41,760.0178256 And don't give up. 696 00:54:41,920.0178256 --> 00:54:42,680.0178256 Don't give up. 697 00:54:42,840.0178256 --> 00:54:43,600.0178256 Bounce back. 698 00:54:43,610.0178256 --> 00:54:44,250.0178256 Plan B. 699 00:54:44,290.0178256 --> 00:54:45,60.0178256 Plan C. 700 00:54:45,330.0178256 --> 00:54:46,430.0178256 There's a big alphabet. 701 00:54:47,430.0178256 --> 00:54:49,880.0178256 One person said to me, Look, I'm on Plan F. 702 00:54:49,960.0178256 --> 00:54:51,470.0178256 I said, Well, there's a big alphabet. 703 00:54:51,470.0178256 --> 00:54:52,30.0178256 Press on. 704 00:54:52,30.1178256 --> 00:54:59,695.1684727 He's got about 20 letters left at that point, doesn't he? Well, George, thank you so much. 705 00:54:59,765.1684727 --> 00:55:01,308.501806 I know we're, here out of time. 706 00:55:01,678.501806 --> 00:55:07,818.401806 Just let me say thank you again for making time for us, for being willing to share from your experience. 707 00:55:07,818.501806 --> 00:55:20,468.501806 Is this your natural, is this your, can I ask you one question? Is this your natural temperament? Are you nice, just laid back, really nice guy? Is this, is this, is this you? I'm pretty low key. 708 00:55:20,468.501806 --> 00:55:23,668.599806 I, married a spicy lady good luck. 709 00:55:23,788.600806 --> 00:55:24,398.600806 You got it. 710 00:55:25,78.600806 --> 00:55:28,835.1674727 He's got the fire for both of us and I get to be stable foundation. 711 00:55:28,835.1674727 --> 00:55:36,978.500806 So a high percentage of people that I recruited looking back at all these years are, are more your temperament for everyone in my temperament. 712 00:55:36,988.500806 --> 00:55:39,328.400806 We need 10, we need 10. 713 00:55:39,328.500806 --> 00:55:39,688.500806 Thank you. 714 00:55:40,928.500806 --> 00:55:41,448.500806 God bless you. 715 00:55:41,588.500806 --> 00:55:42,58.500806 Thank you. 716 00:55:42,218.500806 --> 00:55:43,298.500806 God bless you as well. 717 00:55:43,538.500806 --> 00:55:44,518.500806 Thank you for your time. 718 00:55:44,558.500806 --> 00:55:47,8.500806 And, uh, hopefully we'll, we'll meet again. 719 00:55:49,335.6204181 --> 00:55:52,725.6204181 But I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 720 00:55:53,85.6204181 --> 00:55:59,398.9537515 If you liked this episode, why don't you take a moment to give us a rating and review? And give us a shout out on social media. 721 00:56:00,78.9537515 --> 00:56:08,68.9537515 Next week, we'll be back with another episode that we hope will inspire you to accelerate global mission within your own space. 722 00:56:08,788.9537515 --> 00:56:09,748.9537515 Until next week. 723 00:56:10,198.9537515 --> 00:56:10,618.9537515 Cheers.