How Are Resilient Disciples Really Formed—and Why It Matters for Mission? | Rick Hill - Lausanne Movement Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
.0000000001Mission always calls us to cross boundaries. 2 00:00:03,445.5670332673 --> 00:00:08,242.233699934 discipleship happens in the ordinary and the everyday and the weekly rhythms of church life. 3 00:00:08,242.233699934 --> 00:00:18,616.447443496 But yet I also believe that there needs to be a great intentionality in those things, it's not a factory where we just put the right things in and we expect the disciple to pop out the other end. 4 00:00:18,616.447443496 --> 00:00:23,223.114110162 That's actually, that we sew and we water and we watch the grind and we weed. 5 00:00:23,223.114110162 --> 00:00:23,283.114110162 Um. 6 00:00:23,692.643392403 --> 00:00:34,203.808659388 more recently is that as I've been seeing the church cross boundaries, actually I've been noticing that God tends to be already there and we join with him and, and his great mission. 7 00:00:38,190.846480884 --> 00:00:46,410.846480884 A very warm welcome to the luzane Movement Podcast, for those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 8 00:00:46,591.90864704 --> 00:00:56,791.90864704 I'm your host, Jason Watson, and today I am delighted to share an interview that I had with Rick Hill, the leader of Mission in Ireland for the Presbyterian Church of Ireland. 9 00:00:57,204.566806929 --> 00:01:05,244.566806929 Rick previously worked as a discipleship development officer for the denomination and is the author of Deep Roots of Resilient Disciples. 10 00:01:05,615.211365364 --> 00:01:14,795.211365364 In our conversation, Rick invites us to rethink discipleship, not as a program to be run, but as a life on life journey of formation. 11 00:01:15,117.342281682 --> 00:01:24,687.342281682 He traces the movement of Jesus's call from come and see, to go and make disciples and explores the key spaces where this kind of formation happens. 12 00:01:24,955.57482919 --> 00:01:32,575.57482919 Rick also helps us understand the rapidly changing spiritual landscape of Ireland and unpacks and shares inspiring initiatives. 13 00:01:32,925.57482919 --> 00:01:46,360.87402909 There is a church you're doing to see revitalization across the island, and so if you have a passion to see resilient disciple making churches for every people and place, then this episode is for you. 14 00:01:46,780.87402909 --> 00:01:52,900.87402909 And I wanna invite you to grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Rick Hill. 15 00:01:55,366.4095549 --> 00:01:57,256.4095549 Well, Rick, welcome to the podcast. 16 00:01:57,256.4095549 --> 00:01:58,336.4095549 It's great to have you with us. 17 00:01:58,598.97556201 --> 00:01:59,258.97556201 Hi Jason. 18 00:01:59,258.97556201 --> 00:02:03,193.9742395 I've been a long time listener, so it's good to arrive on this side of the microphone. 19 00:02:03,255.51068754 --> 00:02:04,575.51068754 No, it's, it's great. 20 00:02:04,610.51068754 --> 00:02:12,475.51068754 I, I, at this stage, I don't think I've recorded with anyone in Ireland, so I'm really excited to, to chat with you, to hear your insights. 21 00:02:12,715.51068754 --> 00:02:15,205.51068754 Particularly today we're gonna be diving into church. 22 00:02:15,205.51068754 --> 00:02:16,975.51068754 We're gonna be just talking about discipleship. 23 00:02:17,305.51068754 --> 00:02:20,875.51068754 We'd love to hear more about what's happening in the church in Ireland. 24 00:02:21,286.12189739 --> 00:02:27,782.78856406 but to, to kick us off, would love for you just to have an opportunity to share your story and share a bit of your journey with our audience. 25 00:02:27,782.78856406 --> 00:02:30,932.78856406 So I'm gonna hand it over to you and you can, you can take us from there. 26 00:02:31,197.91878269 --> 00:02:32,67.91878269 Yeah, thanks Jason. 27 00:02:32,67.91878269 --> 00:02:36,117.91878269 Well, yeah, I'm living in Belfast, just outside Belfast, here in Northern Ireland. 28 00:02:36,117.91878269 --> 00:02:40,677.91878269 I've lived in this corner of the island for, for al almost all of my life. 29 00:02:41,159.98249872 --> 00:02:43,469.98249872 I'm married to Sarah with three young kids. 30 00:02:43,559.98249872 --> 00:02:45,659.98249872 Uh, I'm a part of a church there. 31 00:02:45,659.98249872 --> 00:02:47,909.98249872 I'm an elder in a local church here. 32 00:02:47,939.98249872 --> 00:02:57,479.98249872 I've been in various ministry roles and I'm currently working for the Presbyterian Church in Ireland with the responsibility for our home mission department or mission in Ireland. 33 00:02:57,479.98249872 --> 00:02:59,389.98249872 So, I'm gonna talk about that as we go. 34 00:02:59,989.98249872 --> 00:03:02,689.98249872 But in terms of serving the Lord, I would say. 35 00:03:03,613.31583206 --> 00:03:06,748.31583206 A strong desire to serve God ever since I put my trust in him. 36 00:03:06,748.31583206 --> 00:03:15,448.31583206 So nurtured well and the things of faith as a child and young person, even though I wouldn't have always lived in a way that honored him, uh, growing up. 37 00:03:15,878.31583206 --> 00:03:25,778.31583206 But I've been around the church all my life and in some ways serving him in ministry has kind of felt like a natural step and outworking of my faith at, at every point on, on my journey. 38 00:03:25,778.31583206 --> 00:03:32,738.31583206 So I, I guess more formally after theological education, I served God in youth ministry for over a decade. 39 00:03:32,738.31583206 --> 00:03:38,768.31583206 So I come with a heart for the next generation, and that was in both parachurch and church based roles. 40 00:03:39,38.31583206 --> 00:03:39,818.31583206 And I loved that. 41 00:03:39,998.31583206 --> 00:03:41,948.31583206 I felt very much at home in those roles. 42 00:03:41,948.31583206 --> 00:03:48,878.31583206 But in more recent years, I've moved into a denominational role with the Presbyterian Church here across the island of Ireland. 43 00:03:48,878.31583206 --> 00:03:52,358.31583206 So two countries, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland will reflect on that later. 44 00:03:52,928.31583206 --> 00:03:56,408.31583206 And initially I was in a training role in the area of discipleship. 45 00:03:56,408.31583206 --> 00:03:56,948.31583206 So some of. 46 00:03:57,653.31583206 --> 00:04:00,563.31583206 What I'll, I'll talk about today kind of flows from that. 47 00:04:00,593.31583206 --> 00:04:05,153.31583206 But more recently, then to give a lead to the mission of our church across Ireland. 48 00:04:05,153.31583206 --> 00:04:16,943.31583206 So that involves supporting churches and development fees, new church planting, overseeing some kind of bespoke mission projects, supporting a whole variety of mission workers, church planters, chaplains, evangelists. 49 00:04:17,392.52156122 --> 00:04:19,252.52156122 so that's, that's kind of ministry. 50 00:04:19,672.52156122 --> 00:04:24,502.52156122 And then beyond that, I'm an, I'm an elder in a fairly large congregation in the suburbs of Belfast. 51 00:04:24,502.52156122 --> 00:04:25,792.52156122 I used to be on staff there. 52 00:04:26,169.44772774 --> 00:04:31,719.44772774 but I just get to hang out and be part of the leadership team now and enjoy being part of that church. 53 00:04:31,871.04928509 --> 00:04:32,291.04928509 Wonderful. 54 00:04:32,291.04928509 --> 00:04:33,971.04928509 Thanks for that introduction. 55 00:04:33,971.04928509 --> 00:04:38,831.04928509 I love that you are still deeply involved in the church that you were a pastor in. 56 00:04:39,193.89241202 --> 00:04:44,293.89241202 I think that that is a beautiful thing most pastors move on to, to different spaces. 57 00:04:44,663.89241202 --> 00:04:59,592.05741227 I'm really interested, one of the things I love about this podcast and the role that I have within Luanne is being able to connect with people all over the world that are just, just have a, a deep sense of calling for what the Lord is calling into. 58 00:04:59,592.05741227 --> 00:05:03,492.05741227 And, and so often so unique to, to anything else I've seen. 59 00:05:03,642.05741227 --> 00:05:16,782.05741227 And so I, I'd be interested to hear from you what first stirred your passion for discipleship and mission because, um, not everyone is passionate about discipleship particularly, and not everyone is passionate about mission. 60 00:05:17,142.05741227 --> 00:05:37,936.4224009 so, so what was it in your own journey that kind of sparked that interest and set you on that trajectory? I mean, looking back, I think there's a personal way I'll answer that question and then maybe more something that God has in me in, in recent years or maybe that I've noticed more widely in terms of personally, I would say I was discipled in the context of mission. 61 00:05:38,236.4224009 --> 00:05:49,736.4224009 So when I served God in the midst of for me it was summer mission teams, you know, you know, going to a different place for a few weeks and joining with mostly older Christians. 62 00:05:49,736.4224009 --> 00:05:59,606.4224009 For me, more mature Christians, and being around that kind of environment of sharing faith and also of, of that kind of maybe more intense spiritual environment. 63 00:05:59,636.4224009 --> 00:06:08,451.54121428 I think those were massive, uh, spiritual, moments for me, in my own growth, serving God within my own church as well. 64 00:06:08,451.54121428 --> 00:06:10,911.54121428 I think when I serve God, I. 65 00:06:11,316.54121428 --> 00:06:16,206.54121428 I grew in my faith and, and saw the, the kind of connection between discipleship and mission. 66 00:06:16,773.20788095 --> 00:06:19,113.20788095 but then, so that's part of my story. 67 00:06:19,113.20788095 --> 00:06:20,133.20788095 But I think a couple of things. 68 00:06:20,133.20788095 --> 00:06:22,833.20788095 Then more generally, there's probably been a growing sense. 69 00:06:23,163.20788095 --> 00:06:29,823.20788095 We're certainly seeing it in Ireland, maybe more generally in the west of the strength of cultural formation in people. 70 00:06:30,273.20788095 --> 00:06:34,353.20788095 Uh, in many ways, society is discipling us, whether we're aware of it or not. 71 00:06:34,533.20788095 --> 00:06:43,263.20788095 And so the need to develop almost robust methods of counter formation to ensure we're primarily shaped by Christ and his ways. 72 00:06:43,683.20788095 --> 00:06:47,43.20788095 So, you know, the, the importance of discipleship has really. 73 00:06:47,943.20788095 --> 00:06:48,543.20788095 Come home. 74 00:06:48,603.20788095 --> 00:06:52,713.20788095 I was gonna say to me, but I think much more the, the church here more generally. 75 00:06:53,193.20788095 --> 00:07:00,995.84695716 And that has been something that we've been seeking to, share across our denomination in recent years and develop resources and training that might match that. 76 00:07:01,385.84695716 --> 00:07:09,815.84695716 Also, I think it felt like the pandemic perhaps revealed much of what had already been present beneath the surface here when it comes to spiritual formations. 77 00:07:09,815.84695716 --> 00:07:14,165.84695716 So suddenly gaps appeared in the church whenever we regathered again. 78 00:07:14,528.83936586 --> 00:07:26,882.51362382 perhaps those gaps were already there, but not as visible, you know? And so when habits were disrupted or relational ties had been loosened, maybe there was a, a kind of gap that was seen. 79 00:07:26,912.51362382 --> 00:07:33,552.51362382 And that gap for me was, uh, seen in the need for discipleship spiritual formation. 80 00:07:34,362.51362382 --> 00:07:35,112.51362382 Those kind of things. 81 00:07:35,112.51362382 --> 00:07:39,192.51362382 And maybe just, I might answer your question maybe in a more cheeky way, Jason as well. 82 00:07:39,192.51362382 --> 00:07:56,322.51362382 We can be cheeky us Irish people from time to time and I might just say, you know, if it's not helping people to grow in faith and it's not helping to reach people beyond the church, what, what is it that we think we're doing as the church? You know, what else would we be doing than these two, two things as well. 83 00:07:56,322.51362382 --> 00:07:59,112.51362382 So for me it's just this is our calling. 84 00:07:59,112.51362382 --> 00:08:04,896.76783935 This is who we are, this is, this is what the Lord or Dean the church to do and to be as well. 85 00:08:05,245.68561914 --> 00:08:11,725.68561914 Yeah, I'm more than happy for, for you to get cheeky with us and, uh, push, push us a little bit in this direction. 86 00:08:11,725.68561914 --> 00:08:30,505.68561915 You know, um, I'm, I'm often thinking about the, the Great Commission and, um, I, I grew up hearing, uh, many missionaries speaking about the Great Commission and, and going and reaching unreached people groups, and it, it very much being about evangelism and proclamation and church planting. 87 00:08:31,135.68561915 --> 00:08:42,985.68561914 But what, what I'm noticing coming up through, through conversation with people is, is this reorientation back to what the Great Commission really is about, which is to go and make disciples. 88 00:08:43,495.68561914 --> 00:08:56,335.68561915 And, and if we are not doing that in any of these spaces, whether it's church ministry or mission, a Parachurch ministry, all of our efforts need to be towards that goal of, of teaching people to obey. 89 00:08:56,845.68561915 --> 00:09:00,685.68561915 and and so I, I would love to hear more, more about that from your perspective. 90 00:09:01,55.68561915 --> 00:09:03,65.68561915 A question I've been asking many people is. 91 00:09:03,800.68561915 --> 00:09:07,550.68561915 To, to give me a, a definition or their definition of discipleship. 92 00:09:07,670.68561915 --> 00:09:22,52.63408616 And so I, I would love to hear from you, what is your definition of discipleship and, and how do you personally express if someone says, Hey, what is discipleship? Or what does it mean to be a disciple? What would you say? I think before there was the great commission, there was the great invitation. 93 00:09:22,52.63408616 --> 00:09:28,222.63408616 So Jesus on the shores, shores of the Sea of Galilee invited those first followers of Jesus. 94 00:09:28,222.63408616 --> 00:09:30,952.63408616 You know, come follow me and I will make you fishers of men. 95 00:09:31,42.63408616 --> 00:09:33,802.63408616 And straight away you actually see an a missional. 96 00:09:34,552.63408616 --> 00:09:36,832.63408616 Challenge in the midst of that invitation. 97 00:09:36,832.63408616 --> 00:09:42,322.63408616 But that's what I see discipleship primarily as it's an invitation to follow. 98 00:09:42,988.10739439 --> 00:09:48,208.10739439 and then an invitation obviously to, or a challenge maybe to go, an invitation to follow, a challenge to go. 99 00:09:48,478.10739439 --> 00:09:54,658.10739439 But I've found the Apostle Paul description of how he left a lot among the Thessalonians to be a brilliant description of discipleship. 100 00:09:54,658.10739439 --> 00:09:57,28.10739439 So, uh, they're much better than my own words. 101 00:09:57,28.10739439 --> 00:10:00,508.10739439 So, chapter two verse eight, first letter to the Thessalonians. 102 00:10:00,508.10739439 --> 00:10:09,148.10739439 He writes that because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well. 103 00:10:09,238.10739439 --> 00:10:15,58.10739439 And that's just a beautiful description, the importance of going deeper in the gospel. 104 00:10:15,63.10739439 --> 00:10:18,118.10739439 And so discipleship isn't less than helping people. 105 00:10:18,793.10739439 --> 00:10:21,103.10739439 Understand the gospel, the sharing of that. 106 00:10:21,430.21908617 --> 00:10:24,550.21908617 but it's also sharing in c Christian community with others. 107 00:10:24,550.21908617 --> 00:10:26,920.21908617 So I love that kind of balance. 108 00:10:26,920.21908617 --> 00:10:38,320.21908617 Like I know Lizanne talk about the two winged bird for other things, you know, but actually the, the two winged plan for me, if discipleship is the need to both speak the word and share our lives. 109 00:10:38,320.21908617 --> 00:10:49,930.21908617 And I think when the, both of those things are happening, you know, there's both proclamation and community or invitation into some kind of community, I think that is where discipleship is gonna be happening. 110 00:10:50,560.21908617 --> 00:10:54,280.21908617 And I, I'm maybe sometimes more a pictures guy than a words guy. 111 00:10:54,280.21908617 --> 00:10:59,170.21908617 So a love images, the idea of disciples as apprentices. 112 00:10:59,260.21908617 --> 00:11:01,0.21908617 I think that language is definitely. 113 00:11:01,765.21908617 --> 00:11:11,13.1109441 Being picked up more recently, in recent years globally in the Christian Church, so that that idea of the process of discipleship were learners, students. 114 00:11:11,163.1109441 --> 00:11:15,333.1109441 The writ of the word disciple is mathes, essentially means students. 115 00:11:15,333.1109441 --> 00:11:17,973.1109441 So that picture that I haven't arrived yet. 116 00:11:17,973.1109441 --> 00:11:22,383.1109441 I've been following Jesus for 25 years, but actually there's more for me to learn and grow. 117 00:11:22,931.55356476 --> 00:11:27,611.55356476 pick up Peterson's free Eugene Peterson's phrase is, you know, it's a long obedience in the same direction. 118 00:11:27,611.55356476 --> 00:11:32,111.55356476 So, uh, and the other image for me in the New Testament is that of a farmer in a field. 119 00:11:32,741.55356476 --> 00:11:40,241.55356476 Um, again, Paul writes to the Corinthians, compares the idea of spiritual growth to that, that of a farmer in a field. 120 00:11:40,571.55356476 --> 00:11:46,301.55356476 You know, it's not a factory where we just put the right things in and we expect the disciple to pop out the other end. 121 00:11:46,301.55356476 --> 00:11:51,701.55356476 That's actually, that we sew and we water and we watch the grind and we weed. 122 00:11:51,701.55356476 --> 00:11:51,761.55356476 Um. 123 00:11:52,171.082847 --> 00:11:54,121.082847 It time takes time and there's patience. 124 00:11:54,291.082847 --> 00:11:57,921.082847 There's sometimes growth, but there's not overnight transformation. 125 00:11:57,957.74951366 --> 00:11:58,257.74951366 Yeah. 126 00:11:58,257.74951366 --> 00:12:07,107.74951366 so I just love those kind of pictures of there are maybe more process and growth and journey and apprenticeship and learning in the ways of Jesus. 127 00:12:07,384.2859617 --> 00:12:12,304.2859617 So I, I want to dig in a little bit into that imagery of a disciple. 128 00:12:12,891.81373113 --> 00:12:51,916.638847 if you had to paint a picture or describe what a disciple of Jesus Christ looks like compared to perhaps someone who is not, or a cultural Christian, how would you begin to distinguish between someone who's on the journey, who's, who's proactively trying to become an apprentice of Jesus to those who are not? one of the ways, and, and this would be to define a disciple of Jesus as opposed to a cultural Christian, uh, is someone who's living their life under the authority of, or maybe they'll use another word, the allegiance, the, the place, their allegiance, their primary Allegiance, is in Jesus Christ alone. 129 00:12:52,549.97218033 --> 00:12:58,399.97218033 And that then is, you know, he is the authority of which from which everything else flows. 130 00:12:58,399.97218033 --> 00:13:10,876.638847 So every decision, every plan, every hope, every ambition is filtered under the primary allegiance, uh, of disciples, of primary allegiance to, to Jesus. 131 00:13:10,876.638847 --> 00:13:10,936.638847 Um. 132 00:13:11,236.638847 --> 00:13:19,756.638847 I find that framing, I think it's John Mark Comer who talks about, you know, the three things of being with Jesus, becoming like Jesus and learning to do what Jesus did. 133 00:13:20,536.638847 --> 00:13:22,486.638847 And I find that a helpful framework. 134 00:13:22,486.638847 --> 00:13:31,546.638847 So, you know, to grow a disciple is, well, there's gonna be some kind of spiritual devotion needed, but there's also personal transformation. 135 00:13:31,816.638847 --> 00:13:35,776.638847 And then there's also this kind of movement, uh, outward movement. 136 00:13:35,776.638847 --> 00:13:42,46.638847 So a disciple for me isn't just someone who sits in a holy huddle and becomes nicer or more, even more moral. 137 00:13:42,76.638847 --> 00:13:51,769.97218033 They are, they're seeking to become like Jesus so that, you know, they will serve him and there'll be an outward dimension to their life as well. 138 00:13:51,769.97218033 --> 00:14:00,769.97218033 And I, I think as well disciple of Jesus is, might be someone who should be someone who gives their lives in and around the, the church. 139 00:14:01,369.97218033 --> 00:14:06,469.97218033 But the, you know, conversely just simply being around the church does not necessarily. 140 00:14:07,159.97218033 --> 00:14:08,779.97218033 Mean that somebody a disciple. 141 00:14:08,989.97218033 --> 00:14:09,769.97218033 So, um. 142 00:14:12,141.50862837 --> 00:14:38,514.97218033 so I'd be curious you've spent a lot of time in the church, you work a lot with the church and with church leaders in Ireland, where do you see that, like biblical definition of, of allegiance to Jesus and apprenticeship to Jesus clashing with how many churches and organizations are approaching disciple making today? Yeah, I, I think I firstly wanna say, you know, it's e it might be easy to be critical. 143 00:14:38,514.97218033 --> 00:14:45,684.97218033 And so I would wanna start by saying I do see healthy spiritual formation in many of the ordinary rhythms of what we do as a church. 144 00:14:45,714.97218033 --> 00:14:49,44.97218033 And so I think discipleship can happen in all kinds of ways. 145 00:14:49,44.97218033 --> 00:14:55,164.97218033 Quiet formation through Sunday gatherings, you know, regular preaching of the word, the communion of saints. 146 00:14:55,791.23510446 --> 00:14:58,11.23510446 I think it can happen and it is happening. 147 00:14:58,11.23510446 --> 00:14:59,751.23510446 It does happen in small groups. 148 00:14:59,841.23510446 --> 00:15:04,311.23510446 Intentional Bible study, people sharing their lives with one another, maybe inviting. 149 00:15:04,866.23510446 --> 00:15:06,906.23510446 Into people's homes being around that. 150 00:15:07,476.23510446 --> 00:15:16,266.23510446 I think if I was to be, you know, more critical or, or to push the church, maybe I would say at times I think we can lack intentionality in what we do. 151 00:15:16,806.23510446 --> 00:15:21,216.23510446 So perhaps we go through the motions or we miss the life on life nature of discipleships. 152 00:15:21,216.23510446 --> 00:15:25,296.23510446 So that kind of sharing of our lives beyond the formal and the organized. 153 00:15:25,356.23510446 --> 00:15:32,766.23510446 And that might be where, you know, we can be tempted to substitute programs for proximity to people. 154 00:15:32,766.23510446 --> 00:15:48,636.23510446 So it's not, the programs can't be used for people to grow in Christ, but where almost the attendance or the involvement in the program is seen as the end goal rather than the program, as the bridge to learning or transformation or deeper relationship as well. 155 00:15:49,286.52454843 --> 00:15:56,411.82047337 and maybe another thing is for the church to give really good thought to ensure that there are clear pathways for discipleship. 156 00:15:56,501.82047337 --> 00:15:59,111.82047337 So if someone comes to faith. 157 00:15:59,666.82047337 --> 00:16:23,47.46267521 What's the next step? Next step, you know, are we ready to walk with them or do we know what that looks like for them? What are we signpost them to? Are we ready to receive? There's a lovely little image I think it's in look five where Peter ising the nets and then, just before a, a, a miraculous catch a fish where Jesus enables them to catch, you know, lots of, lots of fish. 158 00:16:23,617.46267521 --> 00:16:28,807.46267521 And there's this idea of the disciples are preparing what they're going to need. 159 00:16:29,407.46267521 --> 00:16:44,880.7960085 And I wonder for us as churches to think through, are we, you know, maybe a church might say, well, we're not seeing lots of people come to faith at the minute, so why do we need to invest in, I don't know, a pattern or a resource or a pathway for somebody if they. 160 00:16:45,750.7960085 --> 00:16:47,490.7960085 You know, come to Jesus. 161 00:16:47,550.7960085 --> 00:16:51,90.7960085 And I would say, well, let's get those things ready now. 162 00:16:51,450.7960085 --> 00:16:55,50.7960085 You know, let's prepare the nets and let's think through our pathway. 163 00:16:55,50.7960085 --> 00:17:09,901.7593113 So, and maybe beyond that, are there clear avenues of service? So, and are we equipping people for that, or do we just drop them into the water and, you know, expect them to swim? I do think discipleship happens in the ordinary and the everyday and the weekly rhythms of church life. 164 00:17:09,901.7593113 --> 00:17:18,991.7593113 But yet I also believe that there needs to be a great intentionality in those things, and to kind of go beyond them in many ways and into people's lives. 165 00:17:18,991.7593113 --> 00:17:41,46.9914919 It comes back to that, you know, speaking the gospel, sharing our lives, So, so I'd love to, to dig in a bit deeper here, because you know, an assumption that I have for, for those who are listening in, if they, they're regular to this podcast, they have, possibly a, a deep love for God's mission, for his church, for, the gospel to God, for its lives to be changed. 166 00:17:41,376.9914919 --> 00:17:48,280.3248252 And that's why they listening to this podcast if they had to ask you, if they say, Hey Rick, uh, we heard you on the podcast. 167 00:17:48,280.3248252 --> 00:17:54,250.3248252 We want you to come in and just consult our church or our ministry organization and how we do discipleship. 168 00:17:54,880.3248252 --> 00:18:26,924.8066294 What would be those foundational things that you would be looking for? You've already mentioned one or two of them, but what questions would you be asking and, and how would you go about trying to give advice and help these ministries and these leaders be successful in their discipleship efforts? so I might begin with that pathway conversation, uh, and say, let's imagine somebody, let's imagine somebody who is, you know, rocks up at your church for the first time and shows some kind of an appetite or enthusiasm to at least hear more, you know, let, let's walk that journey with this person. 169 00:18:27,134.8066294 --> 00:18:38,24.8066294 Um, let's call him Jason, you know, and, uh, how do we, how do we help Jason to, to how do we walk with him along the journey and in terms of maybe consulting at church as well and their discipleship. 170 00:18:38,84.8066294 --> 00:18:52,435.1467654 Another helpful framework I've, reflected on and used actually in this kind of setting is reflecting on the different spaces that Jesus ministered in as in the different kind of si sizes of groups of people who he worked with. 171 00:18:52,855.1467654 --> 00:18:53,635.1467654 Environments. 172 00:18:53,635.1467654 --> 00:18:55,255.1467654 Somebody could, you could call 'em. 173 00:18:55,615.1467654 --> 00:19:00,865.1467654 So essentially Jesus worked and spoke and dealt with people in all kinds of environments. 174 00:19:00,865.1467654 --> 00:19:02,395.1467654 So from the 5,000. 175 00:19:02,980.1467654 --> 00:19:17,471.2104461 You know, he was fading obviously and teaching that kind of, uh, size of people right down to the very few, you know, the three Peter, James and John, you could argue we're in a very intentional discipling process or relationship. 176 00:19:17,891.2104461 --> 00:19:20,381.2104461 But I think there, there's some spaces in between as well. 177 00:19:20,381.2104461 --> 00:19:22,961.2104461 So there's the crowds, the 5,000, the Sermon on the Mount. 178 00:19:23,651.2104461 --> 00:19:28,931.2104461 There's this kind of wider community where Jesus was spending time in homes. 179 00:19:28,931.2104461 --> 00:19:31,721.2104461 There seemed to be more than the 12 around his life. 180 00:19:32,81.2104461 --> 00:19:35,861.2104461 He sent out the 12, but he also sent out the 70 or 72. 181 00:19:36,311.2104461 --> 00:19:39,611.2104461 You know, where does Mary, Martha, Lazarus, all of these people fit in. 182 00:19:39,911.2104461 --> 00:19:41,981.2104461 There was this wider group around Jesus. 183 00:19:41,981.2104461 --> 00:19:47,299.5437794 And uh, then there's the core, I describe them as, Jesus shared his life with the 12. 184 00:19:47,299.5437794 --> 00:19:59,209.5437794 He identified them as future leaders, you know, the, the, the apostles who he poured his life into, and they were with him in a quite a defined relationship, discipling relationship. 185 00:19:59,209.5437794 --> 00:20:01,849.5437794 For three years they were around his ministry. 186 00:20:02,299.5437794 --> 00:20:07,429.5437794 And then there's the three, Peter, James, and John, who are at, with him in the, in the garden of Gethsemane. 187 00:20:08,419.5437794 --> 00:20:10,579.5437794 They're with him in the Mount of Transfiguration. 188 00:20:11,59.5437794 --> 00:20:12,589.5437794 They're with him at certain healings. 189 00:20:13,72.8771128 --> 00:20:20,992.8771128 And then actually there's times where Jesus is with none of those people and he's up a mountain, or he is at the other side of a lake early in the morning. 190 00:20:21,62.8771128 --> 00:20:23,552.8771128 And he's taken time with his father. 191 00:20:23,552.8771128 --> 00:20:33,32.8771128 And I think it's helpful for a church to consider how it might provide or stimulate spiritual formation in each of these kind of spaces or ways. 192 00:20:33,32.8771128 --> 00:20:42,212.8771128 So our gatherings or weekly gathers, I don't know if there's 5,000 coming to your church, but uh, you know, those kind of public spaces where anyone can rock up. 193 00:20:42,697.8771128 --> 00:20:55,652.8771128 Are they part of spiritual formation? Are they part of helping people in a journey of discipleship? Is that what we see that as? But also to go beyond that, then to create spaces where community can develop life on life. 194 00:20:55,652.8771128 --> 00:21:06,196.2104461 Discipleship can occur to invest in the core in terms of deeper spiritual formation, maybe away from the crowds, you know, what is there for people to, who want to go deeper. 195 00:21:06,637.185921 --> 00:21:13,437.8941532 people who need to be equipped for mission or service or leadership or, or just serving the Lord in their everyday lives. 196 00:21:13,497.8941532 --> 00:21:24,117.8941532 And then I think also a church could think about how does it resource people in their spiritual disciplines as well? So it could be teaching on them, but it could be, here's a helpful resource. 197 00:21:24,807.8941532 --> 00:21:28,287.8941532 Here's, we could create a corporate rhythm that can be fostered across the church. 198 00:21:28,287.8941532 --> 00:21:43,347.8941532 We might pray at the same time every day, or we might ask ourselves the same questions around the dinner table and we're going about our everyday lives, but actually we're equipping people for their kind of ordinary spiritual disciplines and, and, and devotion life as well. 199 00:21:43,347.8941532 --> 00:21:47,697.8941532 So I think that's been a helpful kind of paradigm for me. 200 00:21:47,877.8941532 --> 00:21:55,407.8941532 I've used that with different churches to say, let's talk about where, where do you lack focus or where do you need greater intentionality? And if I'm honest. 201 00:21:56,917.8941532 --> 00:21:59,527.8941532 The smaller a group gets, if that makes sense. 202 00:21:59,527.8941532 --> 00:22:03,457.8941532 Or the, in the smaller numbers there, it's often a church saying, Yeah. 203 00:22:03,457.8941532 --> 00:22:07,687.8941532 we might need to give more thought to intentionality in those kind spaces. 204 00:22:08,151.8124336 --> 00:22:17,571.8124336 I'm loving the paradigm that you, you're bringing into this because this applies not only to, to churches, although I, I can understand why this is central. 205 00:22:17,571.8124336 --> 00:22:22,431.8124336 Like, it, it, this should be happening in all churches, but it also happens within some. 206 00:22:22,496.8124336 --> 00:22:36,910.145767 Ministry context where, you know, I, I have a number of organizations that are coming to mind right now that are trying to intentionally, um, disciple and, and form christlikeness and encourage those kind of journeys in the lives of people that they're ministering to. 207 00:22:37,450.145767 --> 00:22:49,441.3840744 And so so I'm loving this, this paradigm of, of what are the spaces, what are the sizes of groups that we are looking at the spiritual habits and disciplines that I, I'd love to dive in with you a little bit deeper. 208 00:22:49,931.3840744 --> 00:23:02,788.5522336 But, but could we, zoom out a bit and, and just talk more about this pathway when you speaking about this discipleship pathway, what exactly are, are you describing? because I can imagine there's almost like a journey that's happening here. 209 00:23:03,128.5522336 --> 00:23:13,955.2189003 I know that the ministry context that I've come from in, in our evangelical kind of sphere, kind of have like this kind discipleship 1 0 1, discipleship 2 0 2, you know, like almost like these classes. 210 00:23:13,955.2189003 --> 00:23:15,455.2189003 And once you're done with the classes. 211 00:23:15,945.2189003 --> 00:23:22,305.2189003 You know, now you're a fully fledged disciple, so you've gone through the pathway that the church has offered. 212 00:23:22,615.2189003 --> 00:23:26,275.2189003 Although our church never really did that, so I wanna clarify for our audience. 213 00:23:26,545.2189003 --> 00:23:47,267.7840096 But, but when you think of pathway, is it like this line or is it more complex? And what, what are the big blocks in that pathway that, you would wanna bring out? For our audience? I actually think things like what you're describing can be helpful but if they're only about knowledge and not about transformation, then I think they, they lack something or they fall short. 214 00:23:47,636.196708 --> 00:23:55,16.196708 I think there's something about discipleship and responsibility and helping people to own the next step on their journey. 215 00:23:55,664.91314 --> 00:24:03,876.196708 I mentioned earlier on the, the kind of initial invitation that Jesus gave these disciples, follow me and then I will make you fishers of men. 216 00:24:04,186.196708 --> 00:24:08,860.5164359 But that part of fishing for people didn't happen right away. 217 00:24:09,970.5164359 --> 00:24:13,870.5164359 And Jesus took his followers then on a journey and. 218 00:24:14,680.5164359 --> 00:24:20,290.5164359 again, I, I've come to see kind of different stages of that journey, different stages of the invitations that Jesus gave. 219 00:24:20,290.5164359 --> 00:24:22,390.5164359 So he, he invited them to follow him. 220 00:24:22,390.5164359 --> 00:24:28,150.5164359 So there was a process of modeling, of watching, of imitation in many ways. 221 00:24:28,548.8367846 --> 00:24:35,418.8367846 actually, before that, there's a invitation to come and see John, John one, you know, Philip Nathaniel. 222 00:24:35,568.8367846 --> 00:24:36,468.8367846 Just come and see. 223 00:24:36,558.8367846 --> 00:24:38,778.8367846 And I wonder if that's the first invitation. 224 00:24:38,778.8367846 --> 00:24:43,132.170118 Just come and see Jesus come and be around what we do as a church. 225 00:24:43,618.8367846 --> 00:24:44,758.8367846 Look to him. 226 00:24:45,28.8367846 --> 00:24:47,68.8367846 I think then there's an intentional invitation. 227 00:24:47,308.8367846 --> 00:24:53,235.5034513 Come follow, turn away from, let, leave down your nets, leave down what you're relying on, and, uh. 228 00:24:55,980.5034513 --> 00:24:57,510.5034513 Dependency on Jesus. 229 00:24:57,510.5034513 --> 00:24:58,920.5034513 Follow, follow me. 230 00:24:58,920.5034513 --> 00:25:05,220.5034513 So there's a kind of invitation, learning to do what Jesus did or you know, just even reflecting on who Jesus was actually. 231 00:25:05,590.5034513 --> 00:25:12,100.5034513 And then there's this shift where Jesus encourages them later to take up their cross and follow him. 232 00:25:12,100.5034513 --> 00:25:16,987.170118 So there's a cost, there's a suffering or there's a challenge as well. 233 00:25:17,297.170118 --> 00:25:20,357.170118 there's an invitation Jesus gives to serve when he sends out. 234 00:25:21,582.170118 --> 00:25:26,177.170118 The 12 and the 72, actually, you and I have a responsibility to be involved in my mission. 235 00:25:26,177.170118 --> 00:25:27,527.170118 It's not just come and see. 236 00:25:27,527.170118 --> 00:25:30,77.170118 It's not just, the story doesn't stop there. 237 00:25:30,857.170118 --> 00:25:43,127.170118 And then obviously at the end of the story, after the resurrection, well that's only the beginning of the story, but after the resurrection, he's actually placed some responsibility into their hands and saying, now you go and do likewise in many ways. 238 00:25:43,127.170118 --> 00:25:44,717.170118 Now you go and make disciples. 239 00:25:45,137.170118 --> 00:25:56,304.1814558 So I think these hinge points are really important, and making sure they're really clear invitations or, or opportunities for people to step into the next part of their journey. 240 00:25:56,724.1814558 --> 00:25:57,804.1814558 And that's hard to do. 241 00:25:57,804.1814558 --> 00:25:59,574.1814558 I talked earlier about a factory in the field. 242 00:25:59,664.1814558 --> 00:26:03,864.1814558 It's really hard to do that in a, in a kind of programmatic way. 243 00:26:04,134.1814558 --> 00:26:06,474.1814558 But I think if churches have opportunities. 244 00:26:07,449.1814558 --> 00:26:13,509.1814558 For people to step into different parts of that story or that journey when they're ready to, that's brilliant. 245 00:26:13,869.1814558 --> 00:26:24,99.1814558 But then for the people that we might lead or know or seek to have an influence on, it's, it's perhaps challenging them or giving them that opportunity at different parts of their journey. 246 00:26:24,129.1814558 --> 00:26:25,855.7179039 Does that make sense, Jason? Is Y Yeah. 247 00:26:25,855.7179039 --> 00:26:33,102.6729706 I mean, I'm loving these stages that, that you've just, presented in terms of the invitations that Jesus gave to his disciples. 248 00:26:33,102.6729706 --> 00:26:35,112.6729706 I, I've never heard it being put like that. 249 00:26:35,592.6729706 --> 00:26:51,72.6729706 And, and I do believe that, you know, you can look at it as, as a leader leadership or as a leader and say, where am I offering those invitations to those we are ministering to, to go deeper in each of these spaces. 250 00:26:51,436.1365226 --> 00:26:51,616.1365226 Yeah. 251 00:26:51,616.1365226 --> 00:26:55,246.1365226 so I mean, to give you an example, I, I sat with a young guy in our church last night. 252 00:26:55,246.1365226 --> 00:26:57,556.1365226 He's probably been a Christian for about a year. 253 00:26:57,602.8031892 --> 00:27:00,282.8031892 Came to, uh, I mean, how he came to Faith was. 254 00:27:00,616.1365226 --> 00:27:04,756.1365226 Uh, just incredible, you know, he actually came to faith with no involvement at the church. 255 00:27:04,756.1365226 --> 00:27:08,146.1365226 He just, uh, you know, reached a crisis point in his life. 256 00:27:08,196.1365226 --> 00:27:10,926.1365226 Began to watch Christian content on TikTok. 257 00:27:11,554.6578232 --> 00:27:20,404.6578232 began reading his Bible and basically turned up at our church already having come to faith and so enters then this quite, you know, that, that he is the classic. 258 00:27:20,794.6578232 --> 00:27:37,601.3244899 He arrives at our church and we think, what do we do with him? You know what now? And so we plugged him into a group and, you know, some of us maybe been looking out for him and, and trying to, uh, so I met up with him last night anyway, and I, I sat with him at our church last night talking to him. 259 00:27:37,601.3244899 --> 00:27:42,901.2836736 And one of the things that I, I thought for him, he was beginning to talk about how he was serving God. 260 00:27:42,901.2836736 --> 00:27:47,791.2836736 So he was beginning to be asked to do things to help and to serve, and that's really, really good. 261 00:27:47,851.2836736 --> 00:27:49,471.2836736 And he's found that helpful. 262 00:27:49,981.2836736 --> 00:27:52,891.2836736 But I just said to him, you know, I travel around loads of different churches. 263 00:27:53,431.2836736 --> 00:27:58,711.2836736 Doing, speaking, doing, do you wanna just come in the car with me? And he, his eyes lit up. 264 00:27:58,711.2836736 --> 00:27:59,161.2836736 He said, Yeah. 265 00:27:59,161.2836736 --> 00:28:00,61.2836736 I would love to do that. 266 00:28:00,61.2836736 --> 00:28:01,741.2836736 I would love to see, see that. 267 00:28:01,741.2836736 --> 00:28:05,941.2836736 And it's really boring, you know, I drive to a different place and maybe I get outta the car and speak. 268 00:28:06,271.2836736 --> 00:28:10,891.2836736 But actually in that journey, there will be opportunities for me to, to talk to him. 269 00:28:11,101.2836736 --> 00:28:20,131.2836736 But I think if that continues the way, I think it could, there might be opportunities for him to be involved then in what I'm doing. 270 00:28:20,461.2836736 --> 00:28:34,11.2836736 Maybe there'll be times where he can do it instead of me, you know? Or I might talk him through what, you know, how, how do you teach the Bible to a group of people? Or what might you say or how do you minister in prayer or whatever it is there. 271 00:28:34,461.2836736 --> 00:28:35,481.2836736 I just think we need to. 272 00:28:35,916.2836736 --> 00:28:40,656.2836736 Have eyes to draw people alongside us in whatever we do. 273 00:28:41,136.2836736 --> 00:28:49,146.2836736 That's maybe more a formal ministry setting I'm talking about, but how would we teach someone how to, to pray for example, well actually come and join me in prayer. 274 00:28:49,146.2836736 --> 00:28:58,779.6170069 Or how would we teach people to read the Bible? Well actually come and we read the Bible together and it's that kind of alongside the next stage. 275 00:29:00,596.1534549 --> 00:29:00,926.1534549 Yeah. 276 00:29:01,9.4867883 --> 00:29:13,909.4867883 And it goes back to what you were saying earlier about that life on life discipleship, inviting people to, for, for their lives, to intersect with your lives rather than just programs, although programs to help. 277 00:29:14,429.4867883 --> 00:29:18,59.4867883 And, you know, my wife and I have, have had similar conversations. 278 00:29:18,59.4867883 --> 00:29:24,59.4867883 How do we, how do we minister to those in our community? And we've just realized actually we need to open up our home. 279 00:29:24,239.4867883 --> 00:29:33,989.4867883 We need to invite those younger couples in to, to our home, see how we raising our little girls and, and just see life as it is, rather than just life from the pulpit. 280 00:29:34,409.4867883 --> 00:29:43,589.4867883 And, uh, I, I want to just reinforce that and encourage those who are listening to, to consider how can you open up your own life to, to, disciple others. 281 00:29:43,862.9503402 --> 00:29:48,302.9503402 the, the CEO of Facebook, I think it, or she, I don't know if she still is. 282 00:29:48,302.9503402 --> 00:29:49,202.9503402 Cheryl Sandberg. 283 00:29:49,232.9503402 --> 00:29:57,32.9503402 She once was quoted by saying, now she was saying this in the context of social media, but she said, you can't become what you can't see. 284 00:29:57,436.2836736 --> 00:30:03,331.2836736 And actually if we apply that with a discipleship lens, you know, actually, are we showing people our lives, uh, as. 285 00:30:03,991.2185643 --> 00:30:08,161.2185643 So, uh, I promised you that I'd give you opportunity to talk about spiritual habits. 286 00:30:08,461.2185643 --> 00:30:21,456.2390695 And so, uh, what kind of habits and practices and rhythms you believe are essential for kind of, taking that life and, and going deeper with Jesus conforming to his image becoming his apprentices. 287 00:30:21,831.7830138 --> 00:30:29,866.7830138 I think if you had a bingo card for spiritual habits, you can get it right now because you're gonna get sort of maybe answers that you might expect. 288 00:30:29,866.7830138 --> 00:30:32,746.7830138 So scripture, you know, I don't think we can get away from that. 289 00:30:32,746.7830138 --> 00:30:34,336.7830138 Discipleship must be word centered. 290 00:30:34,336.7830138 --> 00:30:43,966.7830138 How are we helping people to become, how are we helping to grow what people of the book you know, on, on the word, uh, prayer and intimacy and, and reliance on the Lord. 291 00:30:44,266.7830138 --> 00:30:49,666.7830138 But maybe in both of those things, I think it's important to highlight the need to teach people to feed themselves. 292 00:30:49,666.7830138 --> 00:30:59,499.357874 So, you know, it's easy perhaps for, I know pastors, church leaders to jump to, okay, people, we need to ground people in habits of scripture and prayer. 293 00:30:59,499.357874 --> 00:31:00,879.357874 So I'll teach a 10 week. 294 00:31:01,494.357874 --> 00:31:02,634.357874 Sermon topic on that. 295 00:31:03,774.357874 --> 00:31:09,174.357874 But we have a three-year-old daughter in our house and we're at the stage where we're encouraging her to feed herself. 296 00:31:09,179.357874 --> 00:31:11,4.357874 It's, it's quite messy at this stage. 297 00:31:11,734.357874 --> 00:31:17,44.357874 In some ways it will be easier and quicker and far cleaner if I just put the spoon in her mouth. 298 00:31:17,501.0245407 --> 00:31:22,121.0245407 And she, we needed to do that last year because she wouldn't have had enough food to eat. 299 00:31:22,511.0245407 --> 00:31:24,251.0245407 But that's not gonna help her in the long term. 300 00:31:24,251.0245407 --> 00:31:33,761.0245407 So we're getting her, the next V is of her journey is getting her to hold a s spin on her hand and reminding her, talk less, eat more, that kind of thing. 301 00:31:34,421.0245407 --> 00:31:38,166.0245407 So our role has become the coach rather than the, you know, the feed. 302 00:31:38,471.0245407 --> 00:31:49,631.0245407 And I wonder if, when it comes to spiritual practices, if we need to spoonfeed people less and train people more for them to do this themselves. 303 00:31:49,631.0245407 --> 00:31:53,201.0245407 So actually people can come to a brilliant Bible study where they hear someone. 304 00:31:54,61.0245407 --> 00:32:12,657.6912073 Expound the word, but they may walk away at the end of that without actually having really engaged with the text for themselves or, you know, so are we getting people in front of the Bible themselves when, when they're with us by the way too? You know, so let's, let's get out, let's read together and go through this. 305 00:32:12,747.6912073 --> 00:32:20,7.6912073 But also whenever they're on their own, you know, and some other practices might mention the importance of Sabbath withdrawal. 306 00:32:20,427.6912073 --> 00:32:33,57.6912073 so are we teaching people to set up and modeling again, set up a day apart every week for the worship of God, from withdrawal, from work, all that, you know, recenter in our scattered senses upon his presence. 307 00:32:33,87.6912073 --> 00:32:40,197.6912073 And then in outward ways, I think there's practices, generosity, hospitality you've mentioned of modeling. 308 00:32:41,217.6912073 --> 00:32:51,717.6912073 Within our churches and communities so that people can be formed as part of a family too, and that our, our reach can extend to those outside the family of God, perhaps through the table in our homes as well. 309 00:32:51,717.6912073 --> 00:32:53,307.6912073 So that, um, Yeah. 310 00:32:53,307.6912073 --> 00:32:54,807.6912073 those kind of practices as well. 311 00:32:54,807.6912073 --> 00:32:56,257.0457445 But, that I'll get us started wound. 312 00:32:56,843.5821925 --> 00:33:05,633.5821925 Definitely no, I and I, I love the, the description, you, you said you liked images and the image of a coach, I, I think is a, is a helpful one. 313 00:33:06,20.2488592 --> 00:33:11,30.2488592 and definitely the picture of a little child learning to eat it, it's messy and it's frustrating. 314 00:33:11,393.5821925 --> 00:33:15,293.5821925 you know, trying to help your children learn these practices. 315 00:33:15,768.4143317 --> 00:33:31,308.4143317 but at the end of the day, your love for your child enables you to, to make that decision to, to like go through that frustration so that you know, your little child can become an adult and live and, and have her being so, so. 316 00:33:31,308.4143317 --> 00:33:32,328.4143317 I really appreciate that. 317 00:33:32,328.4143317 --> 00:33:37,518.4143317 Rick, Rick, you, you also have a book on discipleship where people can dig in more into this. 318 00:33:37,518.4143317 --> 00:33:45,826.8778837 I just wanna give you an opportunity just to, to let our audience know about that and where they can find it before we begin to chat about Ireland and, and yeah. 319 00:33:45,978.4143317 --> 00:33:46,608.4143317 the mission there. 320 00:33:46,666.8778837 --> 00:33:47,716.8778837 get the Ireland, yeah. 321 00:33:47,716.8778837 --> 00:33:48,526.8778837 Oh, the book quickly. 322 00:33:48,526.8778837 --> 00:33:49,276.8778837 Thanks, Jason. 323 00:33:49,276.8778837 --> 00:33:51,616.8778837 It's called Deep Roots of Resilient Disciples. 324 00:33:51,676.8778837 --> 00:33:53,896.8778837 It's really unpacking a lot of what we've been talking about. 325 00:33:53,896.8778837 --> 00:33:57,766.8778837 There's a spirit, a chapter, sorry, on spiritual habits and, disciplines. 326 00:33:57,766.8778837 --> 00:34:04,30.211217 It was written kind of in response to what I've been talking about, observation of lots of cultural, Chris. 327 00:34:04,756.5410986 --> 00:34:06,616.5410986 I mean, it was released a year after the pandemic. 328 00:34:06,616.5410986 --> 00:34:09,676.5410986 So, you know, some of it was written in the midst of that as well. 329 00:34:09,676.5410986 --> 00:34:24,333.1133505 and it's really just helping to think about how do we put down deep roots? How do we help disciples to be robust enough to survive the culture, but also in a way that engages with the culture, not just hides, hides away. 330 00:34:24,333.1133505 --> 00:34:31,563.1133505 So actually resilient disciples will be able to stand among the culture, but also to seek to be an influence among it as well. 331 00:34:31,563.1133505 --> 00:34:35,823.1133505 Not, not in a kind of hiding away, but in a, in an engagement way as well. 332 00:34:35,823.1133505 --> 00:34:41,793.1133505 So it just goes through 11 different habits, practices, uh, of a life of discipleship. 333 00:34:41,853.1133505 --> 00:34:46,593.1133505 And they're all from the gospels or all from the life, the ministry of Jesus as well. 334 00:34:46,653.1133505 --> 00:34:47,823.1133505 And, uh, Yeah. 335 00:34:48,273.1133505 --> 00:34:49,113.1133505 resilient disciples. 336 00:34:49,113.1133505 --> 00:34:51,909.6167518 It's probably, it's, I think it is Yeah. 337 00:34:51,986.4466838 --> 00:34:54,286.2834185 for a global audience, maybe that's the best place to find it. 338 00:34:54,619.4865332 --> 00:34:55,219.4865332 Wonderful. 339 00:34:55,249.4865332 --> 00:35:00,439.4865332 Okay, so I wanna encourage those of you who are listening who wanna dive deeper to, to go and find that. 340 00:35:00,439.4865332 --> 00:35:01,759.4865332 I'm gonna put that in the show notes. 341 00:35:02,34.5255771 --> 00:35:04,666.1531999 you'll be able to go find that at the link that I'll, I'll share. 342 00:35:05,116.1531999 --> 00:35:06,736.1531999 So let's talk about Ireland. 343 00:35:06,736.1531999 --> 00:35:07,966.1531999 Let's talk about mission there. 344 00:35:08,346.1921444 --> 00:35:11,796.1921444 Ireland has a rich and complex spiritual history. 345 00:35:11,796.1921444 --> 00:35:20,999.5254777 So for, for those of us, outside of your context, could you, paint your picture? I understand that to try to do that in a few minutes is, is a difficult task. 346 00:35:21,367.4347748 --> 00:35:26,467.4347748 but I, I just wanna give you an opportunity just to share with us what, what is going on in your country. 347 00:35:26,817.4998841 --> 00:35:38,877.4998841 Yeah, just to begin by saying the cultural story of Ireland as a place and a people is so complex, and we'll probably take a whole series of podcasts to unpack and uh, I'm not sure you have time for that, Jason, but it's also quite nuanced. 348 00:35:38,877.4998841 --> 00:35:46,857.4998841 So there are things that I might say that feel like generalizations and there are definitely, uh, anomalies within that, or, or, or differences within it. 349 00:35:46,857.4998841 --> 00:35:54,597.4998841 But in short, I think I could say that in terms of its spiritual story, this is an island that has two very contrasting narratives. 350 00:35:54,717.4998841 --> 00:36:04,767.4998841 so if we wanna go way back in history, the reformation movement of the 16th century was strongly resisted in Ireland, particularly in the south and west of the island. 351 00:36:05,277.4998841 --> 00:36:12,417.4998841 Some of that was a religious resistance, but there were political reasons for some, for resisting something that was being enforced by the King of England. 352 00:36:13,107.4998841 --> 00:36:19,47.4998841 So, uh, it was possibly more political resistance, but I guess that led to a lack of openness to. 353 00:36:19,887.4998841 --> 00:36:23,127.4998841 An evangelical or reformed way of doing things. 354 00:36:23,757.4998841 --> 00:36:33,177.4998841 And it kind of, it led an incredibly dominant Catholicism, much of which then became sort of intertwined with what it meant to be Irish. 355 00:36:33,177.4998841 --> 00:36:37,257.4998841 So being Irish and being Catholic almost went, went hand in hand. 356 00:36:37,617.4998841 --> 00:36:52,227.4998841 And so, you know, became enshrined in religious icons and spiritual pilgrimages and the, the kind of strength or voice that the church, the, you know, the, the parish priest for example, would've had in a local community. 357 00:36:52,227.4998841 --> 00:36:56,277.4998841 So it, it, it almost formed a kind of cultural religiosity. 358 00:36:56,697.4998841 --> 00:36:57,837.4998841 So that's in the south. 359 00:36:57,897.4998841 --> 00:37:02,787.4998841 And then in, in contrast, that the Reformation did take more grip in the north and the east of Ireland. 360 00:37:03,177.4998841 --> 00:37:12,567.4998841 And then a hundred years ago when Ireland was partitioned in 1921, it effectively led the two completely contrasting religious environments side by side. 361 00:37:12,987.4998841 --> 00:37:16,647.4998841 So effectively, Northern Ireland has been described as one of the most even. 362 00:37:17,277.4998841 --> 00:37:26,877.4998841 Sorry, the most evangelized places in the world with more churches per capita than almost anywhere else in Europe and traditionally high levels of church attendance. 363 00:37:26,877.4998841 --> 00:37:29,937.4998841 So I'm, I'm going back a generation, but that would've been the story. 364 00:37:30,507.4998841 --> 00:37:32,907.4998841 There's been a strong history of revivalism here. 365 00:37:32,907.4998841 --> 00:37:38,427.4998841 So even evangelical revivals, uh, the 1859 ster revival. 366 00:37:38,517.4998841 --> 00:37:39,927.4998841 It was kind of well known. 367 00:37:39,927.4998841 --> 00:37:42,687.4998841 It left a, a lasting cultural mark. 368 00:37:43,107.4998841 --> 00:37:54,477.4998841 And yet I would say even with all that heritage, some of that almost is tainted with the fact that it, it led or bred a kind of cultural Christianity here too. 369 00:37:54,477.4998841 --> 00:38:01,447.4998841 So maybe an adherence to the things of faith because it was part of the cultural norm, or it was just what you did. 370 00:38:02,300.7809818 --> 00:38:20,210.7809818 maybe at other times, I need to be careful how I say this, but sometimes the faith and the version of Christianity here in Northern Ireland has been too closely entwined with British national identity and kind of unionist emblems rather than true Protestant values. 371 00:38:20,300.7809818 --> 00:38:30,726.5436275 And so, so when the troubles broke out in Northern Ireland, which was a conflict that lasted 30 years, it was understood, as a religious conflict between Protestants and Catholics. 372 00:38:31,329.8769608 --> 00:38:34,179.8769608 But actually it was nothing to do with faith at all. 373 00:38:34,899.8769608 --> 00:38:43,689.8769608 And it had everything to do with political and national identity, but those became the labels, and that has been a huge damage to the cause of the gospel. 374 00:38:44,259.8769608 --> 00:39:09,912.9394068 And so in some ways then you had this strong evangelical heritage in Northern Ireland sitting alongside the Republic of Ireland, which has been described as the least evangelized English speaking nation on earth because the number of evangelical Protestants stood it under 1% of the population, and yet it was very difficult or it became very difficult to those from an evangelical or Protestant heritage to consider what mission looked like in the rest of Ireland. 375 00:39:10,122.9394068 --> 00:39:17,172.9394068 Partly 'cause there was a border that divided, but also in some places they might not have got a good hearing. 376 00:39:17,552.9394068 --> 00:39:30,312.9394068 Or because conversion to Christ might appear to mean that I have to abandon my political or cultural ties to become part of your tribe or at other times because of a lack of interest in reaching out. 377 00:39:30,917.9394068 --> 00:39:31,757.9394068 To your neighbor. 378 00:39:31,757.9394068 --> 00:39:34,967.9394068 So, um, it's more nuanced than that. 379 00:39:34,967.9394068 --> 00:39:43,697.9394068 There are exceptions, of course, and, and I I maybe should say it's not the completely write off the Roman Catholic Church at all, um, in, in, in Ireland. 380 00:39:43,697.9394068 --> 00:39:55,697.9394068 But rather to say the key evangelical distinctives that I think, you know, the Lasagne missionary movement would hold to, such as the authority of scripture, personal conversion, justification by grace through faith. 381 00:39:56,357.9394068 --> 00:39:59,237.9394068 They weren't strong features of the church landscape in Ireland. 382 00:39:59,543.5629896 --> 00:40:20,258.0606708 but I suppose just to say that meshing together, it's complex because then meshing together a faith and national identity has deeply harmed the cause of the gospel and actually anywhere in the world where those two things happen, our experience has been that it ultimately it damages the cause of the church most. 383 00:40:21,128.0606708 --> 00:40:30,656.4329114 Rather than that someone's national identity, you know, there's been rapid changes to those two pictures then in the last 20 years or so. 384 00:40:30,716.4329114 --> 00:40:35,276.4329114 So, religious affiliation has essentially shifted sharply in both places. 385 00:40:35,276.4329114 --> 00:40:40,226.4329114 So in Ireland, Catholic identification and church attendance dropped dramatically. 386 00:40:40,766.4329114 --> 00:40:53,396.4329114 So in just over three decades, the stats are that weekly church attendance in the Republic of Ireland fell from 91%, which is incredibly high on one level to less than 30% that's in 30 years. 387 00:40:54,236.4329114 --> 00:41:08,576.4329114 And church, in some ways, church abuse scandals within the Catholic church in particular dominated the landscape and were, you know, national news, a national scandal, and the church lost its sense of moral authority. 388 00:41:09,179.7662448 --> 00:41:13,679.7662448 and then the secular agenda, it was seen most visibly in two high profile referendums. 389 00:41:13,679.7662448 --> 00:41:18,569.7662448 So firstly to legalize same sex marriage, and then in 2018 to legalize abortion. 390 00:41:19,49.7662448 --> 00:41:32,399.7662448 And, you know, I, I'm, I'm aware as I say that in many nations across the world, that that would be considered maybe a norm, certainly in the West, but in Ireland, those two things would've been considered unthinkable a generation ago. 391 00:41:32,759.7662448 --> 00:41:34,169.7662448 And so it's led that. 392 00:41:34,619.7662448 --> 00:41:38,429.7662448 Ireland being described as the fastest secularizing nation in Europe. 393 00:41:39,299.7662448 --> 00:41:55,769.7662448 so we're winning a lot of awards there, Jason, you know, uh, but alongside that Northern Ireland, then we, we can't be too proud because there's been a decline in church attendance here too, particularly among younger generations in the recent census shows that no religion, that category has growing really far quickly. 394 00:41:55,769.7662448 --> 00:41:58,486.4329114 So, evangelical communities are more of minority. 395 00:41:58,486.4329114 --> 00:42:01,486.4329114 It's caused, I think, a loss of confidence in parts of the church here. 396 00:42:01,486.4329114 --> 00:42:03,196.4329114 So we're not as strong as we used to be. 397 00:42:03,586.4329114 --> 00:42:05,266.4329114 There's not as many of us as we used to be. 398 00:42:05,506.4329114 --> 00:42:07,876.4329114 We used to be listened to in public, in the public square. 399 00:42:07,876.4329114 --> 00:42:08,926.4329114 We're not anymore. 400 00:42:09,406.4329114 --> 00:42:16,636.4329114 And so I think we need to almost rediscover what it means to spiritually form people when there's been a loss of the Christian. 401 00:42:17,311.4329114 --> 00:42:19,841.4329114 Narrative and to more overtly reach out. 402 00:42:19,841.4329114 --> 00:42:22,91.4329114 So it's a really interesting moment in time. 403 00:42:22,91.4329114 --> 00:42:25,61.4329114 It's a huge missional moment, I think on both sides of the border. 404 00:42:25,511.4329114 --> 00:42:31,361.4329114 In the north, we need to rediscover a confidence and mission and retell the old story to a new generation. 405 00:42:31,361.4329114 --> 00:42:43,511.4329114 Maybe those who either don't have understanding or maybe the same baggage of the past and for the rest of Ireland, then there's a press and need to support existing churches, but also to see healthy churches planted. 406 00:42:43,954.7662448 --> 00:42:48,514.7662448 because there are parts, large parts of this island that don't have a strong evangelical witness. 407 00:42:48,907.7851737 --> 00:42:49,207.7851737 Yeah. 408 00:42:49,207.7851737 --> 00:43:00,725.5388454 I, I mean, I, I really appreciate you painting a picture for us because in the midst of this, you are now called, as an individual wreck to, to lead a mission in Ireland for your denomination. 409 00:43:01,235.5388454 --> 00:43:03,365.5388454 So tell us about that. 410 00:43:03,425.5388454 --> 00:43:07,295.5388454 What are you focusing on? you've shared with us the complexity of it all. 411 00:43:08,135.5388454 --> 00:43:25,865.5613451 What are, what are you up to? How are you trying to advance mission and the gospel within your context? Yeah, so to put in figures, our denomination is 500 churches, and, if you've listened well in the last five minutes, then it might not surprise you to know that over 400 of them are in Northern Ireland, which has just about 2 million people in it. 412 00:43:26,825.5613451 --> 00:43:34,643.4989181 And then we only have about 60 churches in the rest of the Republic of Ireland, which is about four to 5 million people living there. 413 00:43:35,183.4989181 --> 00:43:46,373.4989181 So, you know, in terms of our mission, we really need to support the strengthening of healthy churches where they're already present, particularly for South and West. 414 00:43:46,643.4989181 --> 00:43:50,150.1655848 So there's large parts of the map where, you know, are either missing or. 415 00:43:50,150.1655848 --> 00:43:53,823.4989181 Or churches that are kind of maybe more isolated, certainly within our denomination. 416 00:43:54,93.4989181 --> 00:43:56,553.4989181 Of course there are other healthy churches too, beyond us. 417 00:43:56,914.8173935 --> 00:44:11,971.4840602 but actually a big part of our story then is to see how we can develop more churches plant more churches, see churches, planting churches, send out kind of pioneer missionaries to try to reach people in the culture there as well. 418 00:44:11,971.4840602 --> 00:44:17,101.4840602 Um, so we've it's already been happening, I have to say, in the last decade or so. 419 00:44:17,401.4840602 --> 00:44:20,191.4840602 We've seen some new church plants develop in recent years. 420 00:44:20,191.4840602 --> 00:44:22,861.4840602 Some really encouraging stories of revitalization too. 421 00:44:22,861.4840602 --> 00:44:25,6.4840602 So that's what we wanna stimulate and support. 422 00:44:25,418.1507268 --> 00:44:29,588.1507268 but we're setting a church planting target for the next decade within our denomination. 423 00:44:29,593.1507268 --> 00:44:29,863.1507268 So we're. 424 00:44:30,728.1507268 --> 00:44:36,38.1507268 Setting ourselves to see the planting of 10 new churches in the next 10 years. 425 00:44:36,728.1507268 --> 00:44:39,818.1507268 Plus it's 10 new constituted congregations. 426 00:44:39,818.1507268 --> 00:44:42,578.1507268 So we've really some churches on the church, plants on the journey. 427 00:44:42,578.1507268 --> 00:44:51,39.4083948 So we want to see them come to full status, you know, full health and independence, or strength or sustainability maybe as a church plant. 428 00:44:51,69.4083948 --> 00:44:54,288.232825 And then we wanna see 10 other new church planting projects. 429 00:44:54,618.232825 --> 00:45:01,938.232825 So we've called this 10 plus 10 and 10, and that's part of the vision that we're gonna try to be giving ourselves towards. 430 00:45:01,938.232825 --> 00:45:12,588.232825 So that will define how we resource, you know, what we resource, what we try to develop, how we envision churches to think about planting churches themselves, all of that kind of thing. 431 00:45:12,588.232825 --> 00:45:15,528.232825 So that's what we're really trying to set ourselves to. 432 00:45:15,966.4359397 --> 00:45:21,886.4359397 Okay, so you've got this, this vision of, of 10 church planning, church revitalization. 433 00:45:22,398.5635428 --> 00:45:25,218.5635428 what are you learning as you, so you've got the vision. 434 00:45:26,58.5635428 --> 00:45:46,998.7779271 What are you learning as you're beginning to engage with leaders within your denomination that could perhaps those who are listening can learn from, lessons from your own settings in, in these efforts? one of the big learnings for me has been, or I dunno if it's been a new learning, but just a big underlining has been how Mission always calls us to cross boundaries. 435 00:45:47,389.5534373 --> 00:45:57,572.5076032 so if you know, just, you just need to read through the early chapters of acts and you just see how the apostles were continually crossing boundaries to new places, to new kinds of people. 436 00:45:57,572.5076032 --> 00:45:59,102.5076032 So, you know, Jesus calls them. 437 00:45:59,251.8248008 --> 00:46:04,648.8755683 Be witnesses in Jerusalem, Jude, under the ends of the earth, there's loads of boundaries that are being crossed there. 438 00:46:05,68.8755683 --> 00:46:10,468.8755683 Boundaries from the city they were in to the region to their nearby neighbors. 439 00:46:10,468.8755683 --> 00:46:15,88.8755683 Stroke enemies, stroke people that they didn't, that just weren't part of the same tribe. 440 00:46:15,958.8755683 --> 00:46:26,518.8755683 And then obviously, you know, boundaries to the ends of the earth and that it's incredible to see an act how that, you know, the church scatters actually through difficulty and through the sovereignty of God actually. 441 00:46:27,88.8755683 --> 00:46:29,548.8755683 And, you know, churches established. 442 00:46:30,118.8755683 --> 00:46:35,632.2089017 And the story that has given me most encouragement is the story of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunich. 443 00:46:35,632.2089017 --> 00:46:44,32.2089017 So here's someone already with an awareness of God, attending worship, and someone who has, is already reading the Bible for the scriptures. 444 00:46:45,907.2089017 --> 00:46:48,697.2089017 But he needs someone to come alongside him, to be sent to him. 445 00:46:49,507.2089017 --> 00:46:53,857.2089017 And I'm fairly convinced that across this island there are lots of people with an awareness of God. 446 00:46:54,337.2089017 --> 00:46:58,747.2089017 You can't be within this history and within this culture, without an awareness of God. 447 00:46:58,807.2089017 --> 00:46:59,827.2089017 It's hard to be. 448 00:47:00,320.542235 --> 00:47:08,600.542235 and I think there's signs of an increased spiritual openness among younger generations in UK and Ireland research to kind of back that up recently. 449 00:47:09,380.542235 --> 00:47:17,927.2089017 So there, God, God will be at work in people's lives, but we might need to go to them, cross boundaries, find them, God will lead us towards them. 450 00:47:18,377.2089017 --> 00:47:23,535.542235 So something about crossing boundaries, crossing borders, cultural barriers too. 451 00:47:23,910.542235 --> 00:47:31,260.542235 So, you know, uh, people who might consider, and within Northern Ireland, people who might consider themselves culturally Irish. 452 00:47:31,530.9776091 --> 00:47:41,730.9776091 Culturally nationalist Republican, and those are words that, um, might mean something different elsewhere, but for, for us, that's their, their cultural affinity might be Irish. 453 00:47:42,300.9776091 --> 00:47:48,630.9776091 And we need to help them see that the gospel is not a barrier, that is not a barrier to, to their understanding of the gospel. 454 00:47:48,990.9776091 --> 00:47:55,770.9776091 And cross barriers generationally too, to make the church, help the church be as accessible as possible to the next generation. 455 00:47:56,220.9776091 --> 00:48:00,570.9776091 And then to cross boundaries into places that we haven't previously been or, or gone before. 456 00:48:01,114.3109425 --> 00:48:04,474.3109425 so learning that, the importance of vision too. 457 00:48:04,474.3109425 --> 00:48:08,240.9776091 Casting vision, think the importance of churches planting churches. 458 00:48:08,240.9776091 --> 00:48:26,870.9776091 So Pioneer Mission is part of our strategy and Strat, but actually whenever a church can send a group of people up a road, we've seen that really healthly in one of our, so the youngest Presbyterian church is just over 10 years old and it has planted a church in the last five years. 459 00:48:27,469.3109425 --> 00:48:30,379.3109425 There's something, uh, it's a massive challenge just north of Dublin. 460 00:48:30,949.3109425 --> 00:48:44,309.185737 They realized, they had some people coming from the nearby town and they thought, what if instead of them coming 20 minutes to come to church here, if we could gather something around them there so they could, you know, be closer. 461 00:48:45,159.185737 --> 00:48:46,774.185737 Missionally I guess as well. 462 00:48:46,774.185737 --> 00:48:57,344.185737 So churches planting churches mission comes before worship off often, you know, we we might want to gather people in church, but actually it's not at attractional, it's missional. 463 00:48:57,404.185737 --> 00:49:04,814.185737 So we're trying to establish what mission looks like in the community and seeing if church might flow from that, if that makes sense. 464 00:49:05,324.185737 --> 00:49:13,814.185737 And then just lastly, it takes significant time and patience and how prayer is the key, the unlock doors that are way beyond us. 465 00:49:13,944.185737 --> 00:49:23,125.8524037 we've seen God answer prayers in all kinds of ways to open the door for us to begin a work in a, you know, in a part of Belfast that would. 466 00:49:23,755.8524037 --> 00:49:28,885.8524037 We thought wouldn't have been possible on a part of Ireland that we thought was a kind of no go area. 467 00:49:28,915.8524037 --> 00:49:30,355.8524037 That those kind of things, the importance of. 468 00:49:31,267.453961 --> 00:49:38,257.453961 So I, I would love to give you an opportunity just to, to share some lessons with the global church. 469 00:49:38,327.453961 --> 00:49:51,549.9153808 you mentioned, just the, the, in the past 30 years, how radically different Ireland is to what it was three decades ago becoming one of the most secularized countries in all of Europe. 470 00:49:51,769.9153808 --> 00:50:02,179.9153808 This is, this tends to be a, you know, the, a trajectory for many Western countries, although we seeing revival happening and sparks of renewal all over the place. 471 00:50:02,689.9153808 --> 00:50:18,992.4804901 What lessons from Ireland's journey do you think could really serve the global church? and, what have, what have you learned in this that you think would really serve the global listeners who are joining us? AR Ireland was once known as the Land of Saints and Scholars. 472 00:50:19,772.0683722 --> 00:50:25,832.0683722 It has been Ascending Nation, uh, has I, I'll, I'll use the phrase, it's punched above its weight. 473 00:50:26,12.0683722 --> 00:50:32,282.0683722 I think sometimes in, in terms of how we've resourced mission globally and elsewhere. 474 00:50:32,282.0683722 --> 00:50:34,982.0683722 We've sent people to the nations. 475 00:50:35,288.7350389 --> 00:50:42,248.7350389 and yet I think we're in a period of history where we might need to learn to receive more in this season. 476 00:50:42,248.7350389 --> 00:50:44,991.0099874 I think humbly, to receive more. 477 00:50:44,991.0099874 --> 00:50:45,681.0099874 I, I Do. 478 00:50:45,681.0099874 --> 00:51:00,126.0099874 think one of the lessons that could serve the global church here in Ireland is just how the movement of God's people and the movement of people more generally has actually been contributing to the revitalization of some of our churches, particularly in the south. 479 00:51:00,876.0099874 --> 00:51:04,620.9686662 So, as people have come, there's something called the Celtic Tiger. 480 00:51:04,620.9686662 --> 00:51:10,860.9686662 About 20 years ago, a boom in the economy of the Republic of Ireland brought a whole bunch of people from the nations. 481 00:51:11,340.9686662 --> 00:51:14,580.9686662 You know what, Jason and I go to lots of our churches and the Republic of Ireland. 482 00:51:14,580.9686662 --> 00:51:15,630.9686662 I made South Africans. 483 00:51:15,690.9686662 --> 00:51:19,80.9686662 I was preaching in a church just over the border on Sunday. 484 00:51:19,80.9686662 --> 00:51:27,300.9686662 A met South African family who have not just joined the church but got committed, you know, really got involved and are making a massive contribution. 485 00:51:27,925.4591689 --> 00:51:38,595.4591689 that could be the case across lots of, African nations in particular actually, and some from Asia and Eastern Europe, and, uh, America, the Americas too. 486 00:51:38,805.4591689 --> 00:51:42,795.4591689 But I think we are maybe learning to receive more in this season. 487 00:51:42,915.4591689 --> 00:51:44,955.4591689 and so there's a posture of humility that we need. 488 00:51:45,975.4591689 --> 00:51:51,105.4591689 A posture of dependency, a posture that we're not as strong as we used to be. 489 00:51:51,975.4591689 --> 00:51:57,915.4591689 And, uh, that might lead us to depend more on Christ, which I think is good for us. 490 00:51:58,125.4591689 --> 00:51:59,145.4591689 I know it was good for us. 491 00:51:59,625.4591689 --> 00:52:04,635.4591689 So that whole idea of Paul speaking that when I, whenever he was weak, then he was strong. 492 00:52:05,355.4591689 --> 00:52:14,348.1167653 I wonder if when the church was actually at its strongest here numerically, if it was maybe at its weakest, in terms of dependency. 493 00:52:14,558.1167653 --> 00:52:16,868.1167653 that's an easy phrase to throw out in a podcast. 494 00:52:16,868.1167653 --> 00:52:24,308.1167653 So I'm, you know, I, I haven't always been here, you know, uh, I've lived here for 40 years, but, uh, Yeah. 495 00:52:24,308.1167653 --> 00:52:31,58.1167653 so that, but that's a sense I have that maybe we've relied on our strength too much and not depended enough on his. 496 00:52:31,628.1167653 --> 00:52:41,78.1167653 I was talking recently to a pastor from Korea, from South Korea, and he told us a story of how 150 years ago in his nation, it was actually a Welsh missionary. 497 00:52:41,826.4500986 --> 00:52:49,326.4500986 was involved in really the birthing of Christianity there and their story, certainly maybe in that region that he was a part of. 498 00:52:49,596.4500986 --> 00:52:55,746.4500986 And he was telling me then that his church that he serves has grown to maybe a hundred thousand people. 499 00:52:56,196.4500986 --> 00:53:02,196.4500986 It's just way outside my paradigm, you know, our paradigm, we, I don't know what to do with that kind of number of people. 500 00:53:02,226.4500986 --> 00:53:13,46.6735714 And he was telling me about how their church is resourcing mission across the nations now and how that he now serves on a bible college in Wales, on the board, sorry, of a Bible college in Wales. 501 00:53:13,227.1316213 --> 00:53:14,667.1316213 And I thought, what an Amazing. 502 00:53:14,667.1316213 --> 00:53:15,147.1316213 story. 503 00:53:15,177.1316213 --> 00:53:15,447.1316213 A hundred. 504 00:53:15,447.1316213 --> 00:53:16,947.1316213 And they have a vision as a church. 505 00:53:16,947.1316213 --> 00:53:19,467.1316213 I think there resourced like a thousand church plants in Europe. 506 00:53:19,673.798288 --> 00:53:20,543.798288 you know, in some way. 507 00:53:20,543.798288 --> 00:53:24,588.798288 So he talking to what we're in pray and support. 508 00:53:25,130.4649546 --> 00:53:48,320.4649546 And it was just that narrative of, uh, wow, you know, a reverse narrative 150 years later of where, and so maybe there's something about, for the Global Churchill lesson of not resting on your laurels either not assuming that if you know, there's wind behind you at the minute and seeing a strong and healthy church, that that's not a given, that that's gonna remain forever. 509 00:53:49,70.4649546 --> 00:53:52,130.4649546 And so what again, brings us back to that cycle. 510 00:53:52,130.4649546 --> 00:54:03,770.4649546 At the start of our conversation today, what foundations do we need to lay? What roots do we need to help people grow so that actually this is not a version of what are down Christianity. 511 00:54:04,220.4649546 --> 00:54:14,707.1316213 You know, that's gonna be acceptable within the culture, but actually this is a robust and a resilient kind of faith that will make a difference in all of our society. 512 00:54:14,707.1316213 --> 00:54:18,217.1316213 So that's what we're praying for within this land again. 513 00:54:18,705.6407848 --> 00:54:26,685.6407848 I actually love that because all of us can do with a little bit more humility in, in our own lives and our ministries. 514 00:54:26,685.6407848 --> 00:54:35,745.6407848 And, and I know I'm just reminded of, of my Corinthians one where God says he, he chooses the weak things he choose, chooses the foolish things of the world. 515 00:54:35,835.6407848 --> 00:54:38,895.6407848 And, um, that in reality that is us. 516 00:54:39,495.6407848 --> 00:54:50,502.3725608 And and, and maybe just to say, I think there, there are, there's lots of biblical narrative here for us that is helpful for us, but it's not always the ones we might like. 517 00:54:50,592.3725608 --> 00:54:53,802.3725608 So it's the pictures of exile, picture of wilderness. 518 00:54:54,132.3725608 --> 00:55:02,352.3725608 In some ways I think we have been in a spiritual wilderness or, you know, that, that, that might be our language or picture. 519 00:55:02,352.3725608 --> 00:55:19,692.304507 I do get a sense the tide might be turning and there might be a more spiritual openness in a younger generation here that haven't been scarred or tainted by, Just our story, and maybe who are beginning to see that the secular story isn't as shiny as they might have been promised. 520 00:55:20,225.6378403 --> 00:55:30,832.304507 so I think there is a turn of the tide, but actually that those pictures of exile, wilderness exodus, actually, you know, what, what were the people of God to do? So, you know, characters like Daniel. 521 00:55:30,832.304507 --> 00:55:33,202.304507 I think Jeremiah's writings are helpful for us. 522 00:55:33,733.840955 --> 00:55:43,3.840955 So Rick, uh, they may very well be other leaders, just like that Korean leader who connected with you that, that is interested in doing work in Ireland. 523 00:55:43,333.840955 --> 00:55:49,783.840955 Or maybe someone's listening to this and they're saying, I need to connect with Rick for whatever reason or any resources that you have. 524 00:55:49,783.840955 --> 00:55:55,733.9711737 How can people find you online? How can they connect with you? Find any of your books or resources? well just the one book. 525 00:55:55,823.9711737 --> 00:55:57,473.9711737 Uh, so I mentioned that earlier. 526 00:55:57,503.9711737 --> 00:55:59,453.9711737 That's, uh, I'm, Yeah. 527 00:55:59,453.9711737 --> 00:56:00,653.9711737 I'm a president of social media. 528 00:56:00,653.9711737 --> 00:56:10,180.6378403 If there's anything in terms of the story of our church that's interested to you, you could certainly Google the Presbyter Presbyterian Church in Ireland, uh, church website and, and search there for mission in Ireland. 529 00:56:10,270.6378403 --> 00:56:15,580.6378403 And you might be connect to some of the church planting and mission projects that I've been talking about today. 530 00:56:15,640.6378403 --> 00:56:26,452.3434826 Uh, but yeah, I'm on social media X Instagram, Rick Hill ni, Rick Hill, ni, and yeah, I do blog a little bit, rick hill.wordpress.com. 531 00:56:26,452.3434826 --> 00:56:32,665.6768159 You can maybe stick out the show notes, but, um, yeah, I blog occasionally now would be what I would say, but sporadically. 532 00:56:32,755.6768159 --> 00:56:34,673.8799306 But, uh, yeah, Fantastic. 533 00:56:34,673.8799306 --> 00:56:34,883.8799306 Okay. 534 00:56:34,883.8799306 --> 00:56:40,683.8799306 I'm gonna be sure to put that in the show notes for those who are listening and want to connect with you as we wrap up. 535 00:56:41,73.8799306 --> 00:56:49,413.8799306 Any final thoughts? We've, we've come taken this conversation in many different directions, but I'd love to give you an opportunity just to share final thoughts with our audience. 536 00:56:49,789.0101493 --> 00:56:49,939.0101493 Yeah. 537 00:56:49,939.0101493 --> 00:56:57,139.0101493 I think I would say just is so ordinary and mission is often so local to begin with. 538 00:56:57,259.0101493 --> 00:57:13,820.6639757 And so I would say for anyone, you know, get plugged in where you are, serve local, but also then consider is there a boundary that goes, calling made across, what's the boundary that might be there within our community, within even a kind of family context or within a nation too. 539 00:57:13,820.6639757 --> 00:57:28,993.9973091 So I think that's been my story, that when more recently is that as I've been seeing the church cross boundaries, actually I've been noticing that God tends to be already there and we join with him and, and his great mission. 540 00:57:29,403.0988664 --> 00:57:30,63.0988664 Wonderful. 541 00:57:30,393.0988664 --> 00:57:35,783.0988664 Rick, with those final words, I, I just wanna thank you for the time that you've given, to me and to this audience. 542 00:57:36,53.0988664 --> 00:57:58,969.8897437 And I'm gonna encourage everyone that is listening to take a moment to pray for Rick, pray for Ireland, pray for mission, pray for the gospel to, to go out and, and let's pray that God would, uh, he's already on mission, like he just said, that he would, uh, remove this tide of secularism and that there would just be disciples that begin to pour out of Ireland. 543 00:57:59,449.8897437 --> 00:58:01,219.8897437 So Rick, thank you so much for your time. 544 00:58:01,219.8897437 --> 00:58:01,999.8897437 It's been a blessing. 545 00:58:02,538.3532957 --> 00:58:02,838.3532957 Thank you so. 546 00:58:03,439.8897437 --> 00:58:03,619.8897437 Yeah. 547 00:58:04,602.8147171 --> 00:58:08,692.8147171 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 548 00:58:08,972.8147171 --> 00:58:14,902.8147171 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 549 00:58:15,391.4372528 --> 00:58:16,191.4372528 Till next week. 550 00:58:16,561.4372528 --> 00:58:17,11.4372528 Cheers.

All Episodes

How Are Resilient Disciples Really Formed—and Why It Matters for Mission? | Rick Hill

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Ruthie's Table 4

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Are Resilient Disciples Really Formed—and Why It Matters for Mission? | Rick Hill