August 18, 2022 • 45 mins
Randy Nelson, founder of Pixar University
It's time to wrap up a conversation where we were learning so much from our guest that we couldn’t fit it all into one episode. So if you haven’t heard our last episode, “How can you create a culture of curiosity? - Part 1,” we really recommend going back to that one first.
But just in case, here’s a review–we recently caught up with Randy Nelson, founder of Pixar University. He walked us through his early days as a juggler, meeting and getting hired by Steve Jobs, seeing what Pixar looked for in a new hire, and eventually being tasked with standing up an educational arm within Pixar that could help the company preserve its alchemic culture, even as it continued to grow.
So today, we’ll keep digging into the question…
HOW CAN YOU CREATE A CULTURE OF CURIOSITY?
It’s part 2 of our conversation with Randy Nelson, on this episode of Lead With a Question.
Guest Bio:
Randy Nelson has spent his career working with organizations to make the best use of the people, wisdom and skills they already have, want to attract and need to develop. He has helped build amplifiers out of groups, using appropriate and dynamic mixtures of training and education, traditional skills and innovative technology, flexible programs and high standards. In addition to increased productivity and effectiveness, hijinks and shenanigans have sometimes resulted. Specialties: • Teacher, trainer, curriculum designer, life-long learner • Manager, project architect, recruiter, coach • Juggler, actor, performer, improvisor, speaker • Artist, designer, calligrapher • Filmmaker, writer, producer, editor • Programmer, systems analyst, database programmer Get to know Randy and his incredible work experiences on his LinkedIn profile.---------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
this is lead with a question.
One of the wonderful things about human beings is any time they make a connection.
It not merely strengthens the relationship,
but it becomes an open tube in which information flows both ways.
(00:25):
And if you can figure out a way to create this diamond organization where every single person has some tangible connection to every single other person,
the organization,
I guarantee you good things will happen.
Hi,
I'm rob Callan.
(00:46):
We live in a time when people are seeing that the old way of doing business is broken and that leading into the future requires something new.
A deeper focus on humanity.
The courage to let go of power and ego,
a desire to nurture the conditions for co creation and the bravery not to have all the answers on this show.
(01:10):
I along with my friends,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson connect with guests who embody these principles and whether household names or not they've shattered the status quo,
often as misfits to shape the future with others and achieve miraculous things in work and life.
Today we'll wrap up a conversation where we were learning so much from our guests that we couldn't fit it all into one episode.
(01:37):
If you haven't heard our last episode,
how can you create a culture of curiosity,
Part one.
We really recommend going back to that one first,
but just in case here's a review,
we recently caught up with randy nelson founder of Pixar University.
He walked us through his early days as a juggler meeting and getting hired by steve jobs,
(01:57):
seeing what Pixar looked for in a new hire and eventually being tasked with standing up an educational arm within Pixar that could help the company preserve its alchemical culture even as it continued to grow.
So today we'll keep digging into the question,
how can you create a culture of curiosity?
It's part two of our conversation with randy NElson on this episode of lead with a question to create something that awakens possibilities and others um and driven by curiosity and interest.
(02:51):
Um so how do you pick the right film for the next film to make,
where you think you'd get some audition films right at Pixar?
You had to do three pitches.
Um if you were considered to be a possible director.
Um and how do you pick which pitch?
Here's one that you look at,
(03:12):
you go that you could make that movie tomorrow.
It is really stitched together.
Got a beginning,
middle and end.
I understand the characters,
I'm engaged,
those are interesting,
whatever they are,
nuts and bolts,
whoever the characters are in this thing.
Um those are interesting nuts and bolts that,
here's this other one that the ideas just aren't as well formed and then here's this one in the middle where it seems like you're searching for something.
(03:40):
I don't know what you're searching for,
but which film would you make?
Well,
logic tells you,
you make the one that's ready to be made.
I understand the characters beginning,
middle and end,
got great bits.
You don't make the one that's sort of uncertain.
It's not as well told story,
but the one in the middle,
that's where there's all this curiosity,
(04:00):
that's the one that picks,
I would pick your frame.
It's like framing up,
hey,
this is the wrestle,
right?
It's gonna be a joyous wrestle and we're gonna,
we're gonna learn as we build,
we're gonna explore this new territory,
right?
How exciting that is.
And yet,
you know,
you look at all these companies in different industries and maybe a lot of people experience,
(04:22):
you know,
a lot of times companies are,
you know,
it's kind of rinse and repeat,
it's like,
hey,
we have a product line,
we have a set of,
you know,
products and services rinse and repeat.
Like,
you know,
maybe it's an assembly line approach so it's not as collaborative anyway,
but there's not that open approach to say,
wow,
this is and it might be on the edge right?
(04:43):
Where we have,
we have yet to learn more about this.
But the level of like organizational discomfort to that seems to be so high,
you know,
as a status quo,
right?
They wouldn't be willing,
but in that threshold like that's where the discoveries happen,
right?
So to your point like,
wow,
what would happen?
What if.
Right.
I know Pixar's,
you know,
you'll love the what if it was like what if Right?
(05:08):
Company cultures did a lot more of this,
right?
And they entered those middle spaces,
wow.
Yeah,
there's a,
there's a couple of takeaways just from this sharing randy.
Um one of which is,
you know,
that that packaged idea that that is perfectly polished,
that has an understanding.
It's probably not that interesting to audience or or it wouldn't translate well to audiences because it's familiar,
(05:36):
right?
If if we can identify it quickly,
like I get what this is,
it's not very compelling.
Whereas people that would work on that project too,
it's it's close,
it's kind of like this is established,
there's not much energy that can really take it to higher places.
And I think the the more of the curiosity projects,
(05:57):
the one where there's there's,
you know,
potential for discovery with within the group and collaboration.
Like I I could see Pixar doing such a great job of channeling energy through that process because it's open ended and then it's just,
it is messy because,
you know,
you have your tripping on each other,
(06:18):
like where's my lane,
can I,
can I speak now,
Can I contribute then?
You know,
But it makes a lot of sense.
I also,
to chris's point back to what you were saying prior to that randy um about,
you know,
the on boarding process I found very fascinating.
I was like,
wow,
why can't other organizations find this type of alignment for the people that they're hiring?
(06:44):
Not just like,
do you do you fit all the check boxes to just be plugged into this office over here in this mundane work that we just need you to take care of.
I think it says something a lot about the leadership and the culture of Pixar that takes talented people and sees their potential and encourages them,
(07:04):
you know,
to to kind of pursue their curiosities and and it kind of like harnesses that talent into becoming even better talent for the future.
Well then how do you create the conditions where you couldn't observe?
And it sounds like you all did,
like you were observing where their leanings were,
like,
where their passions were are,
(07:26):
right?
And and then how many leaders,
managers,
people and organizations take the time to focus or even just ask with intention,
right?
Yeah,
he has a question like,
he would,
he would ask,
uh,
he's in the healthcare space as a leader,
he would ask,
you know,
in the back of your head,
in the back of your heart,
what's something that you always wanted to accomplish or to do?
(07:49):
And you'd be amazed,
you know,
like what people start to share in that kind of manager,
you know,
or leader employee setting that they've never,
they've never been asked.
Ian actually asked me that question when we,
when we were first getting to know each other and it was like,
it was a very,
(08:09):
I mean,
I almost started getting emotional because it was,
it was a question that is so seldom asked,
especially in the business world because in the traditional business world,
you've got your lane stick to your job description or else essentially.
And I think there's a,
there's a hunger that many people have to tap into that deep desire on a much more frequent basis than they currently are.
(08:37):
And we look to an organization like Pixar as an example because it's,
it's a team that has figured out how to make that work,
not only,
you know,
in a way that helps people feel fulfilled,
but it actually works as a business as well.
And I'm interested in your take randy on whether you feel like the average company could achieve conditions more similar to a Pixar or if there were so many unique circumstances that came together that you feel like it would be more challenging for,
(09:17):
for that to happen.
What do you think?
Yeah,
I think it's a great question.
I think that a fair answer is there's a very unique set of circumstances that the 25 years of of work.
The leading up to the breakthroughs,
the fact that in Pixar there was this fundamental understanding that if they could,
(09:39):
if we could just build a,
the right pencil for making digital animation,
then we could go back to just making animation wouldn't be great.
If we could just make animation,
we just need this other kind of pencil.
Um,
so there was this desire to do something very old school tell traditional stories,
tell stories.
(10:00):
Well,
desire to build some new technology in order to be able to tell an unlimited number of stories to not say it would be so great to do something about toys or whatever,
but there's no way we could,
the special effects would drive us crazy and you'd never,
you know,
George Lucas in some sense,
(10:20):
broke through that.
Um,
and said,
you know,
there is,
there is going to be a way we can envision that,
that's why you hired what ultimately became Pixar and that's from George,
that steve bought that team.
So on one side,
the answer I think is very clear.
This is a very unique set of circumstances,
the right time in the right place and the right people.
(10:43):
Um,
but put all that aside,
there are a couple of ideas that are to my mind,
so sustaining that,
I believe they could be transformational in any context and education is a solvent.
This idea that having as a parallel activity,
um,
to the everyday production of whatever you're producing or whatever that is not all business to produce a product,
(11:09):
but there's something going on that is your core business that in parallel to that there are so many different forms of education that you can do in here,
I'm drawing a distinction between education and training and they may feel synonymous,
but,
and this may sound like a horrible hallmark card definition,
(11:29):
But um,
as a first approximation training is about giving you answers to questions,
right?
What do I do when the red light comes on?
Um,
education is about giving you questions for the answers.
Um,
you learn how to question the answers when you're educated.
You say,
well,
here's what john Stuart mill said,
but does that still apply to our time and um,
(11:52):
how would that work in an organization?
Is the harm Prince,
all that stuff that's at the heart of education.
Getting people to challenge convention,
challenge the ideas that they've been shared,
um,
building community,
creating ownership,
building a shared vocabulary.
Um,
uh,
(12:13):
feeling the value that that people feel,
um,
because their role is important.
Um,
they're compensated by more than just money.
Um,
they routinely receive,
receive feedback and critique.
Um,
they have a shared language that works for the business that describes both success and failure.
(12:36):
Um,
they routinely experience ownership.
Um,
they understand the difference between design phase and execution phase and what sort of flexibility,
um,
and possibility there is for change in those domains.
All of those things are modeled really well in educational systems and there's no reason that that educational system can't be contributing.
(12:59):
Even though we're not trying to make it training,
we're not trying to make it be.
Um,
you know,
let's,
let's analyze the waveform in this light a little better and it'll be really fun.
But then you go back to your desk and you're analyzing wave forms and light.
No,
that's not it.
You want to try and find some parallel domain.
And I've worked with a lot of companies where it's free an afternoon's work to just say,
(13:24):
what is it that everybody here does when they're not doing what you pay them to do,
What would they do if you said,
come on in,
use the stuff we've got here,
use the people we've got here,
but make something that we don't make,
what would they make.
And you know what,
that conversation explodes.
And suddenly you find that these businesses have inside them,
(13:46):
this deep desire,
expertise,
ability and most important curiosity about,
Yeah,
we're a bakery,
but it turns out that those things that we're making a really very similar to,
you know,
it's plaster and we like making,
you know,
baking cakes that look like turtles and now we're making turtles that look like turtles.
(14:09):
And um,
there's something inside inside there that education can reveal.
And it's not a panacea.
It's not a universal.
And there are some businesses and some domains in which I don't think we want a lot of embrace of failure in the increase in creativity.
Um,
I like the way the emergency room runs.
(14:30):
I think my brain surgeons should not be,
um,
seeking co creative opportunities with the other people in the room at that moment.
Um,
but if your domain allows it,
if there's something about what you do do.
And I said,
do do um that uh,
education can be transformative.
(14:51):
Um,
if it's done with intention inside the organization almost as though it's like the practice organization that the real thing you use to make products is doing.
Or even the reverse of that.
The real thing we do here is we learn about one of the biggest breakthroughs that Pixar was and it took us a couple of years to do it.
(15:11):
But when we started the live action film program there everything came together.
The primary focus of education of Pixar was what I called the nine deeds um two D.
Pictures,
three D sculpture for D storytelling.
And I said the nineties are greater than or equal to the three rs.
(15:34):
You can find everything fundamental about just basic education in drawing,
painting,
sculpture,
acting,
improvisation.
And with that base,
after a couple of years we actually started making live action films.
One of the greatest insights about ownership that Ed Catmull had was if education is going to be a solvent,
(15:59):
if educators do things to you,
it doesn't feel that same engaged ownership.
But if you do things that's really different.
And so from the very beginning of Pixar,
there was this thing called education allowance,
which I got to manage which every individual in the studio had $1000 a year to spend on their own education and all it had to do was meet standards.
(16:19):
And I was the person that they had to come to to say,
yeah that's a little outside,
but let's give that a try.
Um uh and it wasn't judged,
they didn't have to write a book report.
They didn't,
they had money to spend on being smarter on on satisfying a curiosity or getting more curious about something.
So when it came time to make films,
(16:41):
If I got 40 people together and we and they wrote a script and they liked it,
then I said,
well I want to make this film,
are you willing to put your education allowance into this?
We're making films with $40,000 budgets.
That's not a huge budget,
but it's a good budget to make a live action film in a studio where people understand they're making movies.
(17:03):
And suddenly we had this occurrence where people who were production assistants were now doing a job two levels up from what they did um on the live action show.
Um and you had people who wanted to be designers who were now production designers.
And you wanted people who hoped one day to get out of story and be a director who were directing a film.
(17:27):
Um and they wrote,
we wrote,
directed,
produced our films and then we put them into festivals and we never let anyone know they were Pixar movies.
The company was called after work films.
Um but it exploded in terms of how people developed and when they came looking for a promotion or it was time for review.
(17:50):
The thing that was being reviewed was as often the work they've done in Pixar University as it was the production work that they were paid for.
There's something in that and you know,
the question was asked really well,
was this a unique opportunity?
Could this apply other places answering yes to both is a cheap thing for me to do,
(18:11):
but I will say yes to both,
but the important yes is the second one.
I do think there are many businesses where it applies where you could do education,
not training,
we're not talking about baker's understanding,
you know,
better baking times,
but bakers understanding the history of wheat cultivation,
something different would happen.
(18:33):
That's my hope,
that's my belief,
it's what I've seen.
Yeah,
I love that.
It's like this experiential vehicle right for learning and doing and almost like Skunk works yes,
but but but everybody is involved in a sense.
Yeah,
I think Ian say more about that because the Skunk works thing is,
(18:55):
is really interesting,
but it requires this,
like we're sneaking off and we're not going to tell you about it or I mean,
the Macintosh was a Skunk works project because steve got fired from the lisa team and he went around looking for something to do.
Yeah,
so there's an antagonistic quality about a skunk works that this didn't have,
(19:17):
but that might not be an important detail say more well it is though,
because um I think what you've done with Pixar University,
the education piece,
um and experience at Pixar.
It was more intentional,
it wasn't just a side thing.
And I think that's that's what chris and I are trying to explore and helping other other businesses as well as like how could they be open to the idea and provide resources and space and perhaps education and leadership,
(19:50):
you know,
towards this intention of letting people create,
letting people co create,
right?
And giving people permission.
Um chris you have some examples to at,
I think some other organizations where,
you know,
these million dollar ideas come up just because of this type of,
you know,
intentionality.
(20:11):
Yeah,
I mean you create,
you know,
kind of incubator,
think tanks,
whatever we call it,
right?
And it becomes ingrained into the culture.
You know,
you can have people that have been,
you know,
sit in their chair doing work for 10,
20 years with latent ideas that pent up,
right?
And they're waiting for this moment ideas and and it just becomes this waterfall,
(20:34):
right?
And it's not about quantity as much as,
you know,
the quality and the experience,
right?
So the uh we did this at Adele,
you know,
of course we did this.
Well,
Disney,
we did when I was there Apple.
Um and I just,
it's amazing to your point.
I mean,
I remember I was in a conference thomas Friedman,
(20:56):
right?
The world is flat.
They asked him,
what's,
what's the future,
what does the future look like?
This was like 10 years ago and he said,
people writing their own job descriptions,
that's all he said.
And it's interesting,
right?
Because,
you know,
we,
we live in a world where,
(21:16):
you know,
if anything A I and a lot of the knowledge or expert one answer like singular answer jobs are becoming automated,
right?
There's algorithms that can do this more and more and so the place for,
you know,
and now granted there are spaces to your point,
you know,
in medicine or other places would say,
(21:37):
hey,
we need that expertise,
we need it targeted and,
you know,
but more and more in the general development of product and services,
which is the vast majority of where people are,
you know,
experiencing their work.
It's,
wow,
the requirements are increasingly collaboration,
(21:57):
you know,
creation right?
And these kind of organics that we're talking about and not the mechanics that,
you know,
we're already kind of solved for with the science of management,
so to speak.
And maybe it's just picking the right vehicles and,
and a culture and an organization that starts with this intention,
not the person that sits in the chair for 10 years.
(22:19):
And then all of a sudden there's a new program that's gonna unlock their passions,
but imagine upon hire,
you know,
coming on board and it's ingrained in this culture to like,
oh,
it's okay,
I can actually create with other people.
And you know,
and and the business embraces it.
The organization embraces these ideas,
(22:40):
these projects,
these creations.
Um,
what we're talking about made me think about um sort of reversals and organizations,
things that build into the organization from their beginning,
talking about that individual in his or her chair for 10 years full of ideas.
But no one in the organization had this sense or the organization's structure didn't have the sense to bring that out.
(23:07):
And some some of the collaboration we're talking about comes about because of a lot of intentional creation of an environment that allows for it.
Um,
but I think there are opportunities for other businesses,
other structures.
Um folks wanting to make the transition um in which there are more reluctant people in the organization where it could be um uh still very traditional siloed organizations can still benefit from an increase in intentionality that could lead to a greater collaboration and potentially even co creation.
(23:49):
Um,
and I wanted to share an example of something that we did at Apple,
um called the Associates program.
Are you aware of this at all chris probably is.
I'm aware of it.
It was was a great program.
Yeah.
So Associates was this idea that maybe collaboration maybe greater creativity comes precisely when we drop our expert roles.
(24:13):
Um,
that expertise is one of those things that is a danger to organizations because it's that one answer.
Um,
and we have so much respect for the experts and they've been through all kinds of ships,
often in companies that have those sort of emeritus people.
Um,
and they may even be right.
Um,
(24:34):
but there's something about that that we need to be suspicious of.
And so the Associates program was all about recognizing that the best conversation about this was a focus on culture at Apple.
A very important thread is you don't get very much done at Apple until you kind of get the culture.
(24:56):
Is that fair chris?
Absolutely.
And getting Apple is something that we literally talk about taking sometimes years.
You know,
somebody's been at Apple a year and you go,
well,
it's okay because they don't get Apple yet.
So really a critical thing for people to get Apple.
(25:16):
And so,
um,
we started the program Associates of taking individuals who were employees in various businesses who showed curiosity who were interested and gave them the sort of minimal amount of content it took to have a series of talking points around culture.
(25:38):
We gave them a small amount of training and facilitation.
Um,
but mostly spent our time telling them they're not supposed to be doing anything other than having the conversations that they,
we saw them routinely havoc that got them the offer to be an associated in the first place.
So don't don't,
the last thing we want to do and try and break the expert paradigm is to create new,
(26:01):
uh,
poorly informed experts,
but rather be yourself,
be the associate of the university,
not the university who can speak to people in their own terms because you're just a colleague down the hall who happens to be facilitating a conversation where the content came from us.
But the ideas and the discussion and the pushback came from them.
(26:26):
And first of all,
the power of those conversations was amazing because people talked about what they wanted to talk about and they demonstrated that culture was easily perturbed.
You can bend it and break it in all kinds of ways and still be sort of saying something that sounded like it.
And yet there was a thread in that that really did feel more like the truth than saying,
(26:53):
well,
you know,
every day we always do this was like,
yeah,
we sometimes do this and sometimes the time time doesn't and at the end we get sloppy and we all those realities of that made it much more like a story that I've told before I think with y'all,
which is what is the culture around jaywalking.
You know,
(27:14):
we all,
we all know what the rules are.
The belief is very clear.
You don't jaywalk,
it's dangerous.
It's dangerous to you.
You know what jaywalking was invented.
It was invented by auto clubs in the advent of the automobile to try and make the pedestrian out to be wrong.
That's where it came from.
There's nothing really logical about it.
(27:35):
But we've accepted and it's around.
But in terms of that belief,
what's the behavior anybody here ever jaywalked?
Yeah.
That rule is for somebody else but not for me.
Perfect.
Perfect.
And that is the heart of culture.
What Ian just said is that culture is the recognition that we share a set of beliefs.
(27:56):
But we have different and often polymorphic expectations about how they are applied in behavior.
And the Associates demonstrated that every single time it's like,
yeah,
Apple confidentiality is making me crazy because I'm trying to get some idea about this product that I'm building.
The remote for and the team that's the product that I'm gonna be the remote for.
(28:21):
Um,
we're so lockdown confidential.
We can't get anything from that.
We don't even know what it does.
You just know what the spec is collaboration,
anonymous collaboration around the spec is the model at Apple.
And the key to that is debate.
We can't debate somebody if you don't know who it is and you don't have a topic to argue about.
(28:42):
So there were real limits on how much collaboration could actually drive a quality product.
Um you had such excellence in the elements.
And suddenly in the Associates we were we started within departments.
But really soon the Associates took the program themselves and said the Associates in,
(29:08):
in England came back to me and said,
yeah,
all of us associates who are in the marketing department decided that we kept talking about sales.
So we went to the the Associates in the sales department said,
what are you doing?
And said we're talking about marketing and it turns out you're the problem.
And so the two different groups of Associates began to have co meetings together and they began to understand something about building a product that was completely different than anything they'd ever done.
(29:38):
And it wasn't that they weren't still antagonistic towards each other,
these were just good natured sniping with bagels and that turned out to be better.
And and so this this came about and it was just a little bit extra time on the part of the Associates.
Um There was a certain amount of status there,
(30:00):
but that wasn't why we did it.
We tried to down status it as much as possible.
We said,
you know,
there's an emergency response team where you can get a little vest and help people line up during an evacuation.
Were the emergency response team for education at Apple and we don't even have a vest.
(30:21):
So,
you know,
we tried to just down stance as much as possible.
And people were so good and the program is so strong and to all 2.5 years since I've been at Apple,
the program continues to have its um its strength and layers of Associates have taught layers of Associates.
So it's now become almost self sustaining with the guidance of the university.
(30:45):
Um anyway,
there are,
there are lots of models,
but one of the best I've ever seen is if you build your company and build into it the garage enterprise that's going to put you out of business and make that a part of your regular working,
okay.
Here's what we're doing,
what would somebody on the cheap do to put us out of business because they understand what we're doing,
(31:11):
but they're not encumbered with all of the history and legacy and smart people and big salaries we have.
What would you do if that was the case?
That's an interesting way to frame that,
create your own skunk works to bring back that idea,
but a better skunk works.
Yeah,
those what if questions right,
(31:31):
thrive in those,
what if questions I I saw to that program was really impactful.
Um I was in a lot of those sessions and the great thing about it to,
to your point randy was here,
you had,
you know,
highly technical,
very,
you know,
extreme people are extremely good at what they do tending that,
(31:51):
you know,
this team context,
they tend towards like,
hey,
they're working out those questions right of the stuff,
they've got to do and yet this creates an opportunity that otherwise,
you know,
hey,
could be obvious,
but not always at least a deeper dive on,
hey,
what are the,
you know,
it's kind of the conversation about the conversation right?
In like a relationship,
(32:12):
it's like define the relationship,
right?
It's like those.
Um so stepping back,
they were able to talk about,
you know,
how do our teams have conversations with these other teams or you know,
these things that,
you know,
we're kind of in the air,
so to speak.
Um but kind of nailing it down was really,
really healthy and and it was great to see.
So there's there's this notion that I used to talk about a Pixar which I call the diamond organization and this is the net result of successful education at Pixar.
(32:45):
This is the outcome we were trying for and the notion was the close connection between every member in the studio.
Um and problematically,
most organizations suffer from two different dimensional disconnects.
One is the sort of layer disconnect which is,
you know,
here's the sea level layer,
(33:07):
um here's the middle manager layer,
here's the,
you know,
individual contributor,
here's the new hires,
Some of them are,
you know,
based on time,
some of them are based on role.
Um but graphene,
yeah,
the stuff in pencils,
graphite is layers of really well bonded carbon atoms in sheets and the reason pencils work is there in sheets and they slide off of each other incredibly easily,
(33:35):
there's no bonds between the layers and this experiment with graphene by the way,
can win you a Nobel prize and can be done with scotch tape,
do you realize that the Nobel prize that was given for the discovery of graphene?
The team actually use scotch tape to pull um layers of pencil that they just rubbed on a paper off until they were able to produce single layers of carbon atoms which is graphene,
(34:03):
which is an everyday superconductor that you can make with everyday office supplies anyway.
Um So graphene um it demonstrates that quality extremely strong within the layer,
but not strong at all in terms of the between layers.
Um and then you have your department which is like I know all of these people and my boss tells me certain things and the people who work for me tell me certain things and we have a connection.
(34:31):
So you have some of these and you have some of these and you know what happens if you build a bridge where you only use box girders and no cross members,
it has no strength.
And so what do you do in an organization to create some kind of tangible relationship?
A relationship the individuals would call tangible.
(34:53):
That's the only meaningful definition between every member of the organization.
How do you put in all of those cross members that give the organization unique strength and one of the wonderful things about human beings is any time they make a connection.
It not merely strengthens the relationship,
but it becomes an open tube in which information flows both ways.
(35:17):
So it's not merely a girder that strengthens the unique thing about human beings as we use those strengthening members as communications.
And if you can figure out a way to create this diamond organization where every single person has some tangible connection to every single other person,
the organization,
(35:39):
I guarantee you good things will happen.
I don't know what those will be.
And that's part of the joy of of an organization with that high end name.
And it turns out those connections can be trivial.
I'm almost certain that if I were ever to work for somebody again,
the one question that I would ask in an interview about whether I would go to them assuming they wanted me would be what holidays or holiday do you celebrate?
(36:06):
I mean not just you,
you give us the day off,
but what holiday do you celebrate?
Um,
at Pixar,
it was Halloween and the entire studio came to a complete halt on Halloween and it wasn't just that you might wear a costume.
You created a persona because the entire afternoon was people going up on stage and being interviewed to describe their costume and their character and the thought behind it.
(36:35):
And so there may be something that your organization could be tested on,
where you could say,
here's the reason we connect every quarter we do X.
Um every whatever that is that has that unique quality of,
of people being able to say,
(36:57):
oh,
I know her.
You bring up a conversation,
you know,
the team in marketing has done incredible stuff.
Oh is that Sarah's group?
Yeah,
Sarah's amazing.
You know,
she's running a full marathon and you know,
she's had cancer and suddenly it's like,
wow,
the marketing team is doing something different than I knew even a second ago because of the depth of that connection.
(37:20):
Um and education is a solvent that just happened to be a means to an end.
It's a useful one and it has other benefits.
It's actually easy to sell the people in Hr who are like,
what are you doing?
You're doing training,
right?
No,
no,
no,
we're not doing education.
No,
this isn't gonna make anybody better at their job except it's going to make them incredibly good at their job.
(37:45):
I was gonna say education is kind of a safe territory to kind of deviate from bureaucracy and hierarchy,
right?
And so it's a nice trojan horse within an organization to kind of explore these different experiences,
to draw out creativity,
(38:06):
co creation collaboration.
And,
you know,
in a world where people are,
you know,
they have options and they're ready to explore their passions.
There's a lot,
I think the number of startups is going up,
you know,
the number of side jobs is going up significantly because people are looking for,
you know,
(38:26):
creative outlets and and in a post pandemic world,
they've brought their office home and they're experiencing work at home largely.
And so that idea of like,
hey,
what does culture feel like?
Well it feels it should feel like home or you know,
that question of how do you feel,
how do you want to feel um you know that naturally fits in with their kind of passions or their creativity.
(38:51):
It goes it goes both ways because organizations that are existential right now need to recalibrate the way they approach,
you know,
these type of experiences.
So in other words,
they need to find a way to empower the people to have different experiences because the old playbook doesn't work the second,
(39:14):
the second way I think people are approaching this as individuals is if their current environment doesn't bring this out in them or tap into their passions or there's no alignment to a sense of purpose,
then they have to find the empowerment within themselves to to change their environment,
you know,
and be brave and and and to attempt to,
(39:36):
you know,
create something new for themselves.
Yeah.
You said something that caught my attention in particular e in a moment ago when you said to draw them out,
um and that's I didn't know this until a few years ago,
but the word educate,
(39:57):
that's what it means.
Um the quality of a metal,
the way we know something is metal is you,
it's ductile,
you can keep pulling it out until it's even just an atom thick and it still behaves exactly like that metal,
it doesn't lose its integrity.
Having been drawn out edu co is to draw out educate to make duck tile.
(40:21):
That's what the word means.
So I think I think we're in violent agreement that that thing that you're just describing,
they may not know how it's our job in crafting organizations to create an active mechanism to draw people out.
We don't know what we're going to get.
That's part of the wonder of it and part of the joy of,
(40:44):
of being in the human company.
Um,
but we need each other,
we require one another.
We're alone.
Human is as useful as a lone ant,
right?
Um,
we're social um,
and we require each other and we are at best when we're amplifying each other.
(41:06):
Um,
but the organization has to take an early and proactive responsibility to draw out that quality in each of us to say this is welcome here and you talk about the coming home from work versus working from home.
Um working from home or whatever that means is so integrated.
(41:28):
Um I've seen dogs and Children and things walking back and forth in your backgrounds.
Um,
and it's just so appropriate.
How do you make a decision about anything much less a life and death issue without those things like the dog and child at home being top of mind it can't be this product is gonna sell really well,
(41:50):
but it's a little bit in the environment.
It's got to be like my child is standing behind my chair 100% of the time and these decisions I make are literally life and death decisions.
The life and death of the spirit is the most devastating,
much less the incredible tangible risks and pain that people go through.
(42:13):
And it's all for you doggy.
We have to be,
we have to resist the disintegration that we have accepted in the existing models.
And if you present to someone something that helps draw them out that allows them to feel more integrated.
The return on that investment in them is so profound.
(42:37):
Um and it's almost unfair to figure out an investment because it's a gift all all of us want to do is make our gift and have it be seen.
And most organizations aren't interested in that.
That's why we talk about compensation.
Now make something you don't want to make and I'll pay,
you know,
I could make this thing that I want to make it,
you wouldn't have to pay me at all.
(42:59):
Now,
I'm not interested in that you do that on the weekend.
That's called a hobby.
The best work I've ever seen in my life has had that quality of the stuff you do on the weekend.
And the crazy thing is it turns out that businesses are really quite willing to compensate well um for a committed hobbyist who is deeply engaged and amplifies the work of others.
(43:23):
Well,
I think that's a beautiful crescendo to this journey that you've kind of curated for us.
Um I've been deeply fed by by the things you've shared,
randy.
I'm grateful to chris and Ian for being able to,
to reach out and certainly thank you randy for being willing to spend some,
(43:44):
some of your hard earned retirement time with with us um,
and,
and certainly with those who are listening,
is there anything else that you wanted to share before we close things for the day?
Oh,
I just so admire what y'all are doing and I hope that you continue in such a way that you find more and more that this snowball that you're rolling grows and grows because um there's so many opportunities for us to feel our best selves to be human,
(44:16):
but I don't know if anything other than that quality of being amplified and having amplified another that is more uniquely human.
And um,
you know,
cheers to you all for the work that you're doing in,
that that is when we are at our best as humans.
And so thank you for your,
your commitment to drawing us out this episode of lead with The question was produced by me rob calen with support from my co hosts and brave core founders,
(44:54):
chris Deaver and Ian clawson the music you heard was composed by Ian as part of another project he's involved in called Moon Machine Dave Arcade created our podcast,
cover art and thanks again to randy nelson for drawing us out,
Giving us a small taste of what it must have felt like to work and learn alongside him.
(45:15):
Also,
we really appreciate you for taking the time to co create these conversations with us,
especially when there are so many other things you could be doing.
If you found any value at all in these episodes,
could you do a favor?
Leave us a rating,
even a review wherever you're listening right now.
It takes about two minutes and helps others discover the show as well.
(45:36):
If you want to learn more about the work we're doing at Brave Core,
you can check out our website at Brave Core dot c o.
The lead with a question podcast is a production of Brave Core LLC.
Thanks for being with us.
I'm going to bed.
this is lead with a question.
One of the wonderful things about human beings is any time they make a connection.
It not merely strengthens the relationship,
but it becomes an open tube in which information flows both ways.
(00:25):
And if you can figure out a way to create this diamond organization where every single person has some tangible connection to every single other person,
the organization,
I guarantee you good things will happen.
Hi,
I'm rob Callan.
(00:46):
We live in a time when people are seeing that the old way of doing business is broken and that leading into the future requires something new.
A deeper focus on humanity.
The courage to let go of power and ego,
a desire to nurture the conditions for co creation and the bravery not to have all the answers on this show.
(01:10):
I along with my friends,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson connect with guests who embody these principles and whether household names or not they've shattered the status quo,
often as misfits to shape the future with others and achieve miraculous things in work and life.
Today we'll wrap up a conversation where we were learning so much from our guests that we couldn't fit it all into one episode.
(01:37):
If you haven't heard our last episode,
how can you create a culture of curiosity,
Part one.
We really recommend going back to that one first,
but just in case here's a review,
we recently caught up with randy nelson founder of Pixar University.
He walked us through his early days as a juggler meeting and getting hired by steve jobs,
(01:57):
seeing what Pixar looked for in a new hire and eventually being tasked with standing up an educational arm within Pixar that could help the company preserve its alchemical culture even as it continued to grow.
So today we'll keep digging into the question,
how can you create a culture of curiosity?
It's part two of our conversation with randy NElson on this episode of lead with a question to create something that awakens possibilities and others um and driven by curiosity and interest.
(02:51):
Um so how do you pick the right film for the next film to make,
where you think you'd get some audition films right at Pixar?
You had to do three pitches.
Um if you were considered to be a possible director.
Um and how do you pick which pitch?
Here's one that you look at,
(03:12):
you go that you could make that movie tomorrow.
It is really stitched together.
Got a beginning,
middle and end.
I understand the characters,
I'm engaged,
those are interesting,
whatever they are,
nuts and bolts,
whoever the characters are in this thing.
Um those are interesting nuts and bolts that,
here's this other one that the ideas just aren't as well formed and then here's this one in the middle where it seems like you're searching for something.
(03:40):
I don't know what you're searching for,
but which film would you make?
Well,
logic tells you,
you make the one that's ready to be made.
I understand the characters beginning,
middle and end,
got great bits.
You don't make the one that's sort of uncertain.
It's not as well told story,
but the one in the middle,
that's where there's all this curiosity,
(04:00):
that's the one that picks,
I would pick your frame.
It's like framing up,
hey,
this is the wrestle,
right?
It's gonna be a joyous wrestle and we're gonna,
we're gonna learn as we build,
we're gonna explore this new territory,
right?
How exciting that is.
And yet,
you know,
you look at all these companies in different industries and maybe a lot of people experience,
(04:22):
you know,
a lot of times companies are,
you know,
it's kind of rinse and repeat,
it's like,
hey,
we have a product line,
we have a set of,
you know,
products and services rinse and repeat.
Like,
you know,
maybe it's an assembly line approach so it's not as collaborative anyway,
but there's not that open approach to say,
wow,
this is and it might be on the edge right?
(04:43):
Where we have,
we have yet to learn more about this.
But the level of like organizational discomfort to that seems to be so high,
you know,
as a status quo,
right?
They wouldn't be willing,
but in that threshold like that's where the discoveries happen,
right?
So to your point like,
wow,
what would happen?
What if.
Right.
I know Pixar's,
you know,
you'll love the what if it was like what if Right?
(05:08):
Company cultures did a lot more of this,
right?
And they entered those middle spaces,
wow.
Yeah,
there's a,
there's a couple of takeaways just from this sharing randy.
Um one of which is,
you know,
that that packaged idea that that is perfectly polished,
that has an understanding.
It's probably not that interesting to audience or or it wouldn't translate well to audiences because it's familiar,
(05:36):
right?
If if we can identify it quickly,
like I get what this is,
it's not very compelling.
Whereas people that would work on that project too,
it's it's close,
it's kind of like this is established,
there's not much energy that can really take it to higher places.
And I think the the more of the curiosity projects,
(05:57):
the one where there's there's,
you know,
potential for discovery with within the group and collaboration.
Like I I could see Pixar doing such a great job of channeling energy through that process because it's open ended and then it's just,
it is messy because,
you know,
you have your tripping on each other,
(06:18):
like where's my lane,
can I,
can I speak now,
Can I contribute then?
You know,
But it makes a lot of sense.
I also,
to chris's point back to what you were saying prior to that randy um about,
you know,
the on boarding process I found very fascinating.
I was like,
wow,
why can't other organizations find this type of alignment for the people that they're hiring?
(06:44):
Not just like,
do you do you fit all the check boxes to just be plugged into this office over here in this mundane work that we just need you to take care of.
I think it says something a lot about the leadership and the culture of Pixar that takes talented people and sees their potential and encourages them,
(07:04):
you know,
to to kind of pursue their curiosities and and it kind of like harnesses that talent into becoming even better talent for the future.
Well then how do you create the conditions where you couldn't observe?
And it sounds like you all did,
like you were observing where their leanings were,
like,
where their passions were are,
(07:26):
right?
And and then how many leaders,
managers,
people and organizations take the time to focus or even just ask with intention,
right?
Yeah,
he has a question like,
he would,
he would ask,
uh,
he's in the healthcare space as a leader,
he would ask,
you know,
in the back of your head,
in the back of your heart,
what's something that you always wanted to accomplish or to do?
(07:49):
And you'd be amazed,
you know,
like what people start to share in that kind of manager,
you know,
or leader employee setting that they've never,
they've never been asked.
Ian actually asked me that question when we,
when we were first getting to know each other and it was like,
it was a very,
(08:09):
I mean,
I almost started getting emotional because it was,
it was a question that is so seldom asked,
especially in the business world because in the traditional business world,
you've got your lane stick to your job description or else essentially.
And I think there's a,
there's a hunger that many people have to tap into that deep desire on a much more frequent basis than they currently are.
(08:37):
And we look to an organization like Pixar as an example because it's,
it's a team that has figured out how to make that work,
not only,
you know,
in a way that helps people feel fulfilled,
but it actually works as a business as well.
And I'm interested in your take randy on whether you feel like the average company could achieve conditions more similar to a Pixar or if there were so many unique circumstances that came together that you feel like it would be more challenging for,
(09:17):
for that to happen.
What do you think?
Yeah,
I think it's a great question.
I think that a fair answer is there's a very unique set of circumstances that the 25 years of of work.
The leading up to the breakthroughs,
the fact that in Pixar there was this fundamental understanding that if they could,
(09:39):
if we could just build a,
the right pencil for making digital animation,
then we could go back to just making animation wouldn't be great.
If we could just make animation,
we just need this other kind of pencil.
Um,
so there was this desire to do something very old school tell traditional stories,
tell stories.
(10:00):
Well,
desire to build some new technology in order to be able to tell an unlimited number of stories to not say it would be so great to do something about toys or whatever,
but there's no way we could,
the special effects would drive us crazy and you'd never,
you know,
George Lucas in some sense,
(10:20):
broke through that.
Um,
and said,
you know,
there is,
there is going to be a way we can envision that,
that's why you hired what ultimately became Pixar and that's from George,
that steve bought that team.
So on one side,
the answer I think is very clear.
This is a very unique set of circumstances,
the right time in the right place and the right people.
(10:43):
Um,
but put all that aside,
there are a couple of ideas that are to my mind,
so sustaining that,
I believe they could be transformational in any context and education is a solvent.
This idea that having as a parallel activity,
um,
to the everyday production of whatever you're producing or whatever that is not all business to produce a product,
(11:09):
but there's something going on that is your core business that in parallel to that there are so many different forms of education that you can do in here,
I'm drawing a distinction between education and training and they may feel synonymous,
but,
and this may sound like a horrible hallmark card definition,
(11:29):
But um,
as a first approximation training is about giving you answers to questions,
right?
What do I do when the red light comes on?
Um,
education is about giving you questions for the answers.
Um,
you learn how to question the answers when you're educated.
You say,
well,
here's what john Stuart mill said,
but does that still apply to our time and um,
(11:52):
how would that work in an organization?
Is the harm Prince,
all that stuff that's at the heart of education.
Getting people to challenge convention,
challenge the ideas that they've been shared,
um,
building community,
creating ownership,
building a shared vocabulary.
Um,
uh,
(12:13):
feeling the value that that people feel,
um,
because their role is important.
Um,
they're compensated by more than just money.
Um,
they routinely receive,
receive feedback and critique.
Um,
they have a shared language that works for the business that describes both success and failure.
(12:36):
Um,
they routinely experience ownership.
Um,
they understand the difference between design phase and execution phase and what sort of flexibility,
um,
and possibility there is for change in those domains.
All of those things are modeled really well in educational systems and there's no reason that that educational system can't be contributing.
(12:59):
Even though we're not trying to make it training,
we're not trying to make it be.
Um,
you know,
let's,
let's analyze the waveform in this light a little better and it'll be really fun.
But then you go back to your desk and you're analyzing wave forms and light.
No,
that's not it.
You want to try and find some parallel domain.
And I've worked with a lot of companies where it's free an afternoon's work to just say,
(13:24):
what is it that everybody here does when they're not doing what you pay them to do,
What would they do if you said,
come on in,
use the stuff we've got here,
use the people we've got here,
but make something that we don't make,
what would they make.
And you know what,
that conversation explodes.
And suddenly you find that these businesses have inside them,
(13:46):
this deep desire,
expertise,
ability and most important curiosity about,
Yeah,
we're a bakery,
but it turns out that those things that we're making a really very similar to,
you know,
it's plaster and we like making,
you know,
baking cakes that look like turtles and now we're making turtles that look like turtles.
(14:09):
And um,
there's something inside inside there that education can reveal.
And it's not a panacea.
It's not a universal.
And there are some businesses and some domains in which I don't think we want a lot of embrace of failure in the increase in creativity.
Um,
I like the way the emergency room runs.
(14:30):
I think my brain surgeons should not be,
um,
seeking co creative opportunities with the other people in the room at that moment.
Um,
but if your domain allows it,
if there's something about what you do do.
And I said,
do do um that uh,
education can be transformative.
(14:51):
Um,
if it's done with intention inside the organization almost as though it's like the practice organization that the real thing you use to make products is doing.
Or even the reverse of that.
The real thing we do here is we learn about one of the biggest breakthroughs that Pixar was and it took us a couple of years to do it.
(15:11):
But when we started the live action film program there everything came together.
The primary focus of education of Pixar was what I called the nine deeds um two D.
Pictures,
three D sculpture for D storytelling.
And I said the nineties are greater than or equal to the three rs.
(15:34):
You can find everything fundamental about just basic education in drawing,
painting,
sculpture,
acting,
improvisation.
And with that base,
after a couple of years we actually started making live action films.
One of the greatest insights about ownership that Ed Catmull had was if education is going to be a solvent,
(15:59):
if educators do things to you,
it doesn't feel that same engaged ownership.
But if you do things that's really different.
And so from the very beginning of Pixar,
there was this thing called education allowance,
which I got to manage which every individual in the studio had $1000 a year to spend on their own education and all it had to do was meet standards.
(16:19):
And I was the person that they had to come to to say,
yeah that's a little outside,
but let's give that a try.
Um uh and it wasn't judged,
they didn't have to write a book report.
They didn't,
they had money to spend on being smarter on on satisfying a curiosity or getting more curious about something.
So when it came time to make films,
(16:41):
If I got 40 people together and we and they wrote a script and they liked it,
then I said,
well I want to make this film,
are you willing to put your education allowance into this?
We're making films with $40,000 budgets.
That's not a huge budget,
but it's a good budget to make a live action film in a studio where people understand they're making movies.
(17:03):
And suddenly we had this occurrence where people who were production assistants were now doing a job two levels up from what they did um on the live action show.
Um and you had people who wanted to be designers who were now production designers.
And you wanted people who hoped one day to get out of story and be a director who were directing a film.
(17:27):
Um and they wrote,
we wrote,
directed,
produced our films and then we put them into festivals and we never let anyone know they were Pixar movies.
The company was called after work films.
Um but it exploded in terms of how people developed and when they came looking for a promotion or it was time for review.
(17:50):
The thing that was being reviewed was as often the work they've done in Pixar University as it was the production work that they were paid for.
There's something in that and you know,
the question was asked really well,
was this a unique opportunity?
Could this apply other places answering yes to both is a cheap thing for me to do,
(18:11):
but I will say yes to both,
but the important yes is the second one.
I do think there are many businesses where it applies where you could do education,
not training,
we're not talking about baker's understanding,
you know,
better baking times,
but bakers understanding the history of wheat cultivation,
something different would happen.
(18:33):
That's my hope,
that's my belief,
it's what I've seen.
Yeah,
I love that.
It's like this experiential vehicle right for learning and doing and almost like Skunk works yes,
but but but everybody is involved in a sense.
Yeah,
I think Ian say more about that because the Skunk works thing is,
(18:55):
is really interesting,
but it requires this,
like we're sneaking off and we're not going to tell you about it or I mean,
the Macintosh was a Skunk works project because steve got fired from the lisa team and he went around looking for something to do.
Yeah,
so there's an antagonistic quality about a skunk works that this didn't have,
(19:17):
but that might not be an important detail say more well it is though,
because um I think what you've done with Pixar University,
the education piece,
um and experience at Pixar.
It was more intentional,
it wasn't just a side thing.
And I think that's that's what chris and I are trying to explore and helping other other businesses as well as like how could they be open to the idea and provide resources and space and perhaps education and leadership,
(19:50):
you know,
towards this intention of letting people create,
letting people co create,
right?
And giving people permission.
Um chris you have some examples to at,
I think some other organizations where,
you know,
these million dollar ideas come up just because of this type of,
you know,
intentionality.
(20:11):
Yeah,
I mean you create,
you know,
kind of incubator,
think tanks,
whatever we call it,
right?
And it becomes ingrained into the culture.
You know,
you can have people that have been,
you know,
sit in their chair doing work for 10,
20 years with latent ideas that pent up,
right?
And they're waiting for this moment ideas and and it just becomes this waterfall,
(20:34):
right?
And it's not about quantity as much as,
you know,
the quality and the experience,
right?
So the uh we did this at Adele,
you know,
of course we did this.
Well,
Disney,
we did when I was there Apple.
Um and I just,
it's amazing to your point.
I mean,
I remember I was in a conference thomas Friedman,
(20:56):
right?
The world is flat.
They asked him,
what's,
what's the future,
what does the future look like?
This was like 10 years ago and he said,
people writing their own job descriptions,
that's all he said.
And it's interesting,
right?
Because,
you know,
we,
we live in a world where,
(21:16):
you know,
if anything A I and a lot of the knowledge or expert one answer like singular answer jobs are becoming automated,
right?
There's algorithms that can do this more and more and so the place for,
you know,
and now granted there are spaces to your point,
you know,
in medicine or other places would say,
(21:37):
hey,
we need that expertise,
we need it targeted and,
you know,
but more and more in the general development of product and services,
which is the vast majority of where people are,
you know,
experiencing their work.
It's,
wow,
the requirements are increasingly collaboration,
(21:57):
you know,
creation right?
And these kind of organics that we're talking about and not the mechanics that,
you know,
we're already kind of solved for with the science of management,
so to speak.
And maybe it's just picking the right vehicles and,
and a culture and an organization that starts with this intention,
not the person that sits in the chair for 10 years.
(22:19):
And then all of a sudden there's a new program that's gonna unlock their passions,
but imagine upon hire,
you know,
coming on board and it's ingrained in this culture to like,
oh,
it's okay,
I can actually create with other people.
And you know,
and and the business embraces it.
The organization embraces these ideas,
(22:40):
these projects,
these creations.
Um,
what we're talking about made me think about um sort of reversals and organizations,
things that build into the organization from their beginning,
talking about that individual in his or her chair for 10 years full of ideas.
But no one in the organization had this sense or the organization's structure didn't have the sense to bring that out.
(23:07):
And some some of the collaboration we're talking about comes about because of a lot of intentional creation of an environment that allows for it.
Um,
but I think there are opportunities for other businesses,
other structures.
Um folks wanting to make the transition um in which there are more reluctant people in the organization where it could be um uh still very traditional siloed organizations can still benefit from an increase in intentionality that could lead to a greater collaboration and potentially even co creation.
(23:49):
Um,
and I wanted to share an example of something that we did at Apple,
um called the Associates program.
Are you aware of this at all chris probably is.
I'm aware of it.
It was was a great program.
Yeah.
So Associates was this idea that maybe collaboration maybe greater creativity comes precisely when we drop our expert roles.
(24:13):
Um,
that expertise is one of those things that is a danger to organizations because it's that one answer.
Um,
and we have so much respect for the experts and they've been through all kinds of ships,
often in companies that have those sort of emeritus people.
Um,
and they may even be right.
Um,
(24:34):
but there's something about that that we need to be suspicious of.
And so the Associates program was all about recognizing that the best conversation about this was a focus on culture at Apple.
A very important thread is you don't get very much done at Apple until you kind of get the culture.
(24:56):
Is that fair chris?
Absolutely.
And getting Apple is something that we literally talk about taking sometimes years.
You know,
somebody's been at Apple a year and you go,
well,
it's okay because they don't get Apple yet.
So really a critical thing for people to get Apple.
(25:16):
And so,
um,
we started the program Associates of taking individuals who were employees in various businesses who showed curiosity who were interested and gave them the sort of minimal amount of content it took to have a series of talking points around culture.
(25:38):
We gave them a small amount of training and facilitation.
Um,
but mostly spent our time telling them they're not supposed to be doing anything other than having the conversations that they,
we saw them routinely havoc that got them the offer to be an associated in the first place.
So don't don't,
the last thing we want to do and try and break the expert paradigm is to create new,
(26:01):
uh,
poorly informed experts,
but rather be yourself,
be the associate of the university,
not the university who can speak to people in their own terms because you're just a colleague down the hall who happens to be facilitating a conversation where the content came from us.
But the ideas and the discussion and the pushback came from them.
(26:26):
And first of all,
the power of those conversations was amazing because people talked about what they wanted to talk about and they demonstrated that culture was easily perturbed.
You can bend it and break it in all kinds of ways and still be sort of saying something that sounded like it.
And yet there was a thread in that that really did feel more like the truth than saying,
(26:53):
well,
you know,
every day we always do this was like,
yeah,
we sometimes do this and sometimes the time time doesn't and at the end we get sloppy and we all those realities of that made it much more like a story that I've told before I think with y'all,
which is what is the culture around jaywalking.
You know,
(27:14):
we all,
we all know what the rules are.
The belief is very clear.
You don't jaywalk,
it's dangerous.
It's dangerous to you.
You know what jaywalking was invented.
It was invented by auto clubs in the advent of the automobile to try and make the pedestrian out to be wrong.
That's where it came from.
There's nothing really logical about it.
(27:35):
But we've accepted and it's around.
But in terms of that belief,
what's the behavior anybody here ever jaywalked?
Yeah.
That rule is for somebody else but not for me.
Perfect.
Perfect.
And that is the heart of culture.
What Ian just said is that culture is the recognition that we share a set of beliefs.
(27:56):
But we have different and often polymorphic expectations about how they are applied in behavior.
And the Associates demonstrated that every single time it's like,
yeah,
Apple confidentiality is making me crazy because I'm trying to get some idea about this product that I'm building.
The remote for and the team that's the product that I'm gonna be the remote for.
(28:21):
Um,
we're so lockdown confidential.
We can't get anything from that.
We don't even know what it does.
You just know what the spec is collaboration,
anonymous collaboration around the spec is the model at Apple.
And the key to that is debate.
We can't debate somebody if you don't know who it is and you don't have a topic to argue about.
(28:42):
So there were real limits on how much collaboration could actually drive a quality product.
Um you had such excellence in the elements.
And suddenly in the Associates we were we started within departments.
But really soon the Associates took the program themselves and said the Associates in,
(29:08):
in England came back to me and said,
yeah,
all of us associates who are in the marketing department decided that we kept talking about sales.
So we went to the the Associates in the sales department said,
what are you doing?
And said we're talking about marketing and it turns out you're the problem.
And so the two different groups of Associates began to have co meetings together and they began to understand something about building a product that was completely different than anything they'd ever done.
(29:38):
And it wasn't that they weren't still antagonistic towards each other,
these were just good natured sniping with bagels and that turned out to be better.
And and so this this came about and it was just a little bit extra time on the part of the Associates.
Um There was a certain amount of status there,
(30:00):
but that wasn't why we did it.
We tried to down status it as much as possible.
We said,
you know,
there's an emergency response team where you can get a little vest and help people line up during an evacuation.
Were the emergency response team for education at Apple and we don't even have a vest.
(30:21):
So,
you know,
we tried to just down stance as much as possible.
And people were so good and the program is so strong and to all 2.5 years since I've been at Apple,
the program continues to have its um its strength and layers of Associates have taught layers of Associates.
So it's now become almost self sustaining with the guidance of the university.
(30:45):
Um anyway,
there are,
there are lots of models,
but one of the best I've ever seen is if you build your company and build into it the garage enterprise that's going to put you out of business and make that a part of your regular working,
okay.
Here's what we're doing,
what would somebody on the cheap do to put us out of business because they understand what we're doing,
(31:11):
but they're not encumbered with all of the history and legacy and smart people and big salaries we have.
What would you do if that was the case?
That's an interesting way to frame that,
create your own skunk works to bring back that idea,
but a better skunk works.
Yeah,
those what if questions right,
(31:31):
thrive in those,
what if questions I I saw to that program was really impactful.
Um I was in a lot of those sessions and the great thing about it to,
to your point randy was here,
you had,
you know,
highly technical,
very,
you know,
extreme people are extremely good at what they do tending that,
(31:51):
you know,
this team context,
they tend towards like,
hey,
they're working out those questions right of the stuff,
they've got to do and yet this creates an opportunity that otherwise,
you know,
hey,
could be obvious,
but not always at least a deeper dive on,
hey,
what are the,
you know,
it's kind of the conversation about the conversation right?
In like a relationship,
(32:12):
it's like define the relationship,
right?
It's like those.
Um so stepping back,
they were able to talk about,
you know,
how do our teams have conversations with these other teams or you know,
these things that,
you know,
we're kind of in the air,
so to speak.
Um but kind of nailing it down was really,
really healthy and and it was great to see.
So there's there's this notion that I used to talk about a Pixar which I call the diamond organization and this is the net result of successful education at Pixar.
(32:45):
This is the outcome we were trying for and the notion was the close connection between every member in the studio.
Um and problematically,
most organizations suffer from two different dimensional disconnects.
One is the sort of layer disconnect which is,
you know,
here's the sea level layer,
(33:07):
um here's the middle manager layer,
here's the,
you know,
individual contributor,
here's the new hires,
Some of them are,
you know,
based on time,
some of them are based on role.
Um but graphene,
yeah,
the stuff in pencils,
graphite is layers of really well bonded carbon atoms in sheets and the reason pencils work is there in sheets and they slide off of each other incredibly easily,
(33:35):
there's no bonds between the layers and this experiment with graphene by the way,
can win you a Nobel prize and can be done with scotch tape,
do you realize that the Nobel prize that was given for the discovery of graphene?
The team actually use scotch tape to pull um layers of pencil that they just rubbed on a paper off until they were able to produce single layers of carbon atoms which is graphene,
(34:03):
which is an everyday superconductor that you can make with everyday office supplies anyway.
Um So graphene um it demonstrates that quality extremely strong within the layer,
but not strong at all in terms of the between layers.
Um and then you have your department which is like I know all of these people and my boss tells me certain things and the people who work for me tell me certain things and we have a connection.
(34:31):
So you have some of these and you have some of these and you know what happens if you build a bridge where you only use box girders and no cross members,
it has no strength.
And so what do you do in an organization to create some kind of tangible relationship?
A relationship the individuals would call tangible.
(34:53):
That's the only meaningful definition between every member of the organization.
How do you put in all of those cross members that give the organization unique strength and one of the wonderful things about human beings is any time they make a connection.
It not merely strengthens the relationship,
but it becomes an open tube in which information flows both ways.
(35:17):
So it's not merely a girder that strengthens the unique thing about human beings as we use those strengthening members as communications.
And if you can figure out a way to create this diamond organization where every single person has some tangible connection to every single other person,
the organization,
(35:39):
I guarantee you good things will happen.
I don't know what those will be.
And that's part of the joy of of an organization with that high end name.
And it turns out those connections can be trivial.
I'm almost certain that if I were ever to work for somebody again,
the one question that I would ask in an interview about whether I would go to them assuming they wanted me would be what holidays or holiday do you celebrate?
(36:06):
I mean not just you,
you give us the day off,
but what holiday do you celebrate?
Um,
at Pixar,
it was Halloween and the entire studio came to a complete halt on Halloween and it wasn't just that you might wear a costume.
You created a persona because the entire afternoon was people going up on stage and being interviewed to describe their costume and their character and the thought behind it.
(36:35):
And so there may be something that your organization could be tested on,
where you could say,
here's the reason we connect every quarter we do X.
Um every whatever that is that has that unique quality of,
of people being able to say,
(36:57):
oh,
I know her.
You bring up a conversation,
you know,
the team in marketing has done incredible stuff.
Oh is that Sarah's group?
Yeah,
Sarah's amazing.
You know,
she's running a full marathon and you know,
she's had cancer and suddenly it's like,
wow,
the marketing team is doing something different than I knew even a second ago because of the depth of that connection.
(37:20):
Um and education is a solvent that just happened to be a means to an end.
It's a useful one and it has other benefits.
It's actually easy to sell the people in Hr who are like,
what are you doing?
You're doing training,
right?
No,
no,
no,
we're not doing education.
No,
this isn't gonna make anybody better at their job except it's going to make them incredibly good at their job.
(37:45):
I was gonna say education is kind of a safe territory to kind of deviate from bureaucracy and hierarchy,
right?
And so it's a nice trojan horse within an organization to kind of explore these different experiences,
to draw out creativity,
(38:06):
co creation collaboration.
And,
you know,
in a world where people are,
you know,
they have options and they're ready to explore their passions.
There's a lot,
I think the number of startups is going up,
you know,
the number of side jobs is going up significantly because people are looking for,
you know,
(38:26):
creative outlets and and in a post pandemic world,
they've brought their office home and they're experiencing work at home largely.
And so that idea of like,
hey,
what does culture feel like?
Well it feels it should feel like home or you know,
that question of how do you feel,
how do you want to feel um you know that naturally fits in with their kind of passions or their creativity.
(38:51):
It goes it goes both ways because organizations that are existential right now need to recalibrate the way they approach,
you know,
these type of experiences.
So in other words,
they need to find a way to empower the people to have different experiences because the old playbook doesn't work the second,
(39:14):
the second way I think people are approaching this as individuals is if their current environment doesn't bring this out in them or tap into their passions or there's no alignment to a sense of purpose,
then they have to find the empowerment within themselves to to change their environment,
you know,
and be brave and and and to attempt to,
(39:36):
you know,
create something new for themselves.
Yeah.
You said something that caught my attention in particular e in a moment ago when you said to draw them out,
um and that's I didn't know this until a few years ago,
but the word educate,
(39:57):
that's what it means.
Um the quality of a metal,
the way we know something is metal is you,
it's ductile,
you can keep pulling it out until it's even just an atom thick and it still behaves exactly like that metal,
it doesn't lose its integrity.
Having been drawn out edu co is to draw out educate to make duck tile.
(40:21):
That's what the word means.
So I think I think we're in violent agreement that that thing that you're just describing,
they may not know how it's our job in crafting organizations to create an active mechanism to draw people out.
We don't know what we're going to get.
That's part of the wonder of it and part of the joy of,
(40:44):
of being in the human company.
Um,
but we need each other,
we require one another.
We're alone.
Human is as useful as a lone ant,
right?
Um,
we're social um,
and we require each other and we are at best when we're amplifying each other.
(41:06):
Um,
but the organization has to take an early and proactive responsibility to draw out that quality in each of us to say this is welcome here and you talk about the coming home from work versus working from home.
Um working from home or whatever that means is so integrated.
(41:28):
Um I've seen dogs and Children and things walking back and forth in your backgrounds.
Um,
and it's just so appropriate.
How do you make a decision about anything much less a life and death issue without those things like the dog and child at home being top of mind it can't be this product is gonna sell really well,
(41:50):
but it's a little bit in the environment.
It's got to be like my child is standing behind my chair 100% of the time and these decisions I make are literally life and death decisions.
The life and death of the spirit is the most devastating,
much less the incredible tangible risks and pain that people go through.
(42:13):
And it's all for you doggy.
We have to be,
we have to resist the disintegration that we have accepted in the existing models.
And if you present to someone something that helps draw them out that allows them to feel more integrated.
The return on that investment in them is so profound.
(42:37):
Um and it's almost unfair to figure out an investment because it's a gift all all of us want to do is make our gift and have it be seen.
And most organizations aren't interested in that.
That's why we talk about compensation.
Now make something you don't want to make and I'll pay,
you know,
I could make this thing that I want to make it,
you wouldn't have to pay me at all.
(42:59):
Now,
I'm not interested in that you do that on the weekend.
That's called a hobby.
The best work I've ever seen in my life has had that quality of the stuff you do on the weekend.
And the crazy thing is it turns out that businesses are really quite willing to compensate well um for a committed hobbyist who is deeply engaged and amplifies the work of others.
(43:23):
Well,
I think that's a beautiful crescendo to this journey that you've kind of curated for us.
Um I've been deeply fed by by the things you've shared,
randy.
I'm grateful to chris and Ian for being able to,
to reach out and certainly thank you randy for being willing to spend some,
(43:44):
some of your hard earned retirement time with with us um,
and,
and certainly with those who are listening,
is there anything else that you wanted to share before we close things for the day?
Oh,
I just so admire what y'all are doing and I hope that you continue in such a way that you find more and more that this snowball that you're rolling grows and grows because um there's so many opportunities for us to feel our best selves to be human,
(44:16):
but I don't know if anything other than that quality of being amplified and having amplified another that is more uniquely human.
And um,
you know,
cheers to you all for the work that you're doing in,
that that is when we are at our best as humans.
And so thank you for your,
your commitment to drawing us out this episode of lead with The question was produced by me rob calen with support from my co hosts and brave core founders,
(44:54):
chris Deaver and Ian clawson the music you heard was composed by Ian as part of another project he's involved in called Moon Machine Dave Arcade created our podcast,
cover art and thanks again to randy nelson for drawing us out,
Giving us a small taste of what it must have felt like to work and learn alongside him.
(45:15):
Also,
we really appreciate you for taking the time to co create these conversations with us,
especially when there are so many other things you could be doing.
If you found any value at all in these episodes,
could you do a favor?
Leave us a rating,
even a review wherever you're listening right now.
It takes about two minutes and helps others discover the show as well.
(45:36):
If you want to learn more about the work we're doing at Brave Core,
you can check out our website at Brave Core dot c o.
The lead with a question podcast is a production of Brave Core LLC.
Thanks for being with us.
I'm going to bed.
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