August 26, 2022 • 47 mins
Jaydeep Ranade, Director of Wireless Engineering at Facebook
Let’s dig into the “misfit” principle for a minute. What is a misfit, really? Is a misfit defined by language, culture, appearance, or personality? We’ve tapped into that topic before, but today, our guest has a different take, one that has to do a lot with seeking out opportunities to learn and be stretched as a leader. And for him, it all starts with a set of core values, none of which actually includes being more talented or intelligent than anyone else in the room. In this personal account, he’ll guide us through his experiences seeking answers to the question:
WHAT ARE YOUR FIRST PRINCIPLES AS A LEADER?
A conversation with Jaydeep Ranade, on this episode of Lead With a Question.
Guest Bio:
Jaydeep is a high energy, results driven technical leader with demonstrated ability to build and lead engineering organizations in delivering high-tech and innovative system solutions for wireless products. Credited with building and growing organizations into consistent top performers and delivering high quality hardware and software components and products on time. Recognized for outstanding technical expertise, hands-on style of organizational leadership, excellent team building skills, integrity and superb communication and inter-personal skills. Jaydeep is interested in designing, developing, and deploying hi-tech wireless products. Specifically interested in the intersection of wireless technology and healthcare. Get to know Jaydeep and his impressive history on his LinkedIn Profile.---------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
this is lead with a question every single time.
You know,
I got an opportunity to do something that was not done before I took it.
You know,
I said I'm gonna it's a learning experience for me.
So I'm gonna go take,
I'm gonna do it not because you know,
(00:22):
I have a specific goal in mind,
but it is something I don't know and and it is going to make my brain a little bit more pliable and flexible.
Hi,
I'm rob Callan,
we live in a time when people are seeing that the old way of doing business is broken and that leading into the future requires something new.
(00:47):
A deeper focus on humanity,
the courage to let go of power and ego,
a desire to nurture the conditions for co creation and the bravery,
not to have all the answers on this show.
I along with my friends,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson connect with guests who embody these principles and whether household names or not they've shattered the status quo,
(01:13):
often as misfits to shape the future with others and achieve miraculous things in work and life.
Let's dig into the misfit principle for a minute,
what is a misfit really is a misfit defined by language,
culture,
appearance or personality.
We've tapped into that topic before.
(01:34):
But today our guest has a different take one that has a lot to do with seeking out opportunities to learn and be stretched as a leader and for him it all starts with a set of core values,
none of which actually includes being more talented or intelligent than anyone else in the room in this personal account,
he'll guide us through his experiences seeking answers to the question,
(01:58):
what are your first principles as a leader?
A conversation with Jaideep renege on this episode of lead with a question,
(02:28):
I'm always get this inquisitive attitude,
You've got to start with this fundamental learning mode.
And so if you believe that you do not know,
and if you deeply believe you do not understand everything,
then it is very natural to,
you know,
feel like a misfit basically anytime you do anything new,
right?
So I have had like,
you know,
this feeling on all the time,
let's just put it that way,
You know,
whether it is in your personal life,
(02:50):
let's say you will move into a new neighborhood.
Um,
you're trying to make friends with your kids parents,
you feel like you don't belong there.
You know,
it's as simple as that,
you know what,
you know,
you have,
they haven't any time,
there's an established country of people and you're trying to get yourself into.
It's very natural um,
to feel like a misfit.
You know,
you're learning a new musical instrument.
I've tried that,
(03:10):
you know,
I'm learning a new language,
I try to keep my brain active.
So I've been trying to learn french for the last couple of years on dual lingo?
You know,
as we've been all stuck indoors and I think I'm pretty good.
And I,
but when I started speaking to,
I attempt to speak with people who know french and really soon I realized,
man,
I don't know,
squat about,
you know,
about learning french and I mean I know the words,
(03:32):
but so you feel like what the heck did I do the last two years?
Um and at work,
of course,
you know,
work is,
it's very,
very common,
especially at the impostor syndrome.
As you know,
you probably very well known at the leadership level is very,
very common,
especially when teams are looking up to you.
Um you've been placed in,
let's say a leadership position,
you're expected to make changes.
It is very common to be like,
(03:54):
man,
I just,
I just don't belong here.
This is not what I'm used to do.
You know,
they want me to do something.
I simply can,
they seem to have a group of activities,
things are going very well,
what,
what am I going to do differently over here?
So feeling like a misfit is a very,
um,
I would say common phenomena.
Um and it happens any time,
(04:15):
at least in my opinion,
my experience happens anytime you get yourself outside of your comfort zone,
you are asked to do something,
you know different than what you're normally expected to do.
Um like I said,
it's professional life or,
you know,
your personal life,
you're gonna feel delivered,
you know,
are in there,
but that goes hand in hand,
(04:35):
at least in my opinion with the,
like I said,
the learning mode.
So if you comfortable with the learning more than this is a very natural state to be in.
So the knowledge that you roll up your sleeves and then you say,
I don't know,
and then you ask stupid questions of people and you make it clear to people saying I guys,
I do not understand this part.
I'm gonna ask these very basic questions,
Please bear with me.
(04:56):
And so you start with that attitude and that helps you get over that that very soon.
Um ask questions like I said,
and I realized honestly people will will reciprocate that very,
very easily.
Like I said,
if you come with humility and if you don't come in assuming I,
I have the answer for everything.
People will actually give you a lot of slack.
(05:17):
That's a lot of slack.
Yeah,
especially to your point,
you know,
to go into a room where there are people that are so brilliant right?
Technically and literally like world class,
right?
Like you're not gonna find people probably smarter in those areas right where,
and then they get in a room and you know,
and hey,
okay phds white papers,
(05:37):
they read about this,
but you know,
we're gonna,
we're gonna create this something that is never like,
okay,
you know,
we're going to create the impossible,
we're gonna do it together and that sense of humility,
right?
In a sense or learning mode was just so prevalent,
it's it's really and it's fundamental right?
But it's it's a paradox because you know,
uh most of the time that doesn't happen right in the world,
(05:59):
it's so people get so caught up in this notion of expertise and in a sense of like protectionism or or as you said,
I mean it's it's essentially the,
it's like the foundation of imposter syndrome is this self created sense of knowing,
right?
And so then it gets in the way it creates this false barriers.
I'm curious to,
(06:21):
you know,
if we think about kind of the engineering side of like,
okay,
there's the first principles right that you break down and say,
what are those things that make for the best design?
Uh and in this case for you,
you can say,
hey,
what are your first principles for being a leader?
You've alluded to this one,
we were talking about,
what else would you add to that list?
(06:42):
Yeah,
I think,
you know,
I um that's a very good question,
you know,
uh leadership.
So first of all,
let me state that leadership has to start,
like I said with knowing that you do not know everything,
you know,
and that's what I called,
you have to be continuously in this learning mode,
a good leader in my opinion at least is always always always learning um and I call it keeping my kind of brain,
(07:09):
it's like,
you know,
like a like a muscle,
like,
you know,
if you don't,
you know,
if you don't exercise it,
it is going to atrophy um and that's that's why you know me chris and I'm kind of hyper energetic,
you know,
you're not,
I can't sit still and that's why I was like I said,
I I began to bike you know,
in addition to you know,
running during the lockdown,
(07:30):
I began to learn a new language,
I felt like I wanted to be,
you know,
you remember boondock,
right?
So I want,
I wanted to be uh the second half of that,
you know,
you know,
make myself,
you know,
since I've been given this time,
let me use it wisely as opposed to moping.
So the first principle always is a good leader.
(07:51):
Start with you know,
this inquisitive mind,
you know,
you have to keep in mind that you do not know everything and you are here to learn step number one.
Um the second part is always never be afraid to kind of,
you know,
build a team of people smarter than you,
right?
You know,
I've heard this from multiple leaders.
You want people who are smarter than you working for you.
(08:14):
You know,
you do not ever want to be the smartest leaders,
smartest guy in the meeting because the strongest leaders know how to buy motivate how to encourage,
how to support the smartest people around them and make them do their best and and that starts with the fundamental understanding that you are not the smartest guy,
(08:34):
you know,
the girl,
you know,
in in the room,
and that's totally okay because you're not a leader,
because you're the smartest person,
you are a leader for a variety of other reasons.
Um but this is the second principle,
you have to build a team,
you know,
a team of and I remember my old boss,
you know,
he came from the military background and there are some things that I certainly take away from from what he,
(08:55):
what he told me,
he used to talk about this being like,
you know,
a team in the trenches,
you know,
when you're in the trench,
you have to be able to trust the person next to you to be able to watch for your back,
you know,
you're trusting that person with your life and you can only do that when these are the best of the best,
you know,
so you have to have the people uh you know,
who are at the top of their game,
(09:17):
a couple of other things that also,
and there's a lot more,
by the way,
you know,
in terms of uh,
you know,
approaching leadership,
but a couple of other points clearly is always be cleared about what the objective is.
You know,
why are we trying to do certain things,
uh as opposed to,
okay,
here's the next X,
y z,
that's the what is the simple part,
(09:37):
right?
Anybody,
I always joking,
any schmuck can tell you there's a problem when it gets in front of you.
But what you need to be able to anticipate what is coming around the corner,
what is behind the building,
what's,
you know,
what's uh what's behind the hilltop there?
So if you know the why of what you're going to do something,
then it's easy to be able to tackle these problems when they show up in front of you.
(09:58):
So having this clear not star about why it is that you're doing something,
any activity is a very very crucial piece of information that you as a leader needs to constantly uh propagate,
disseminate amongst your team.
Everybody has to know.
Um why is it that we're doing something,
(10:19):
you know,
as opposed to I understand what is it that we do,
but why,
why,
why should I like,
you know,
uh perform this particular experiment?
Why should I fly to china in the middle of the night?
Why am I like,
you know,
spending,
you know,
my nights and weekends over here.
So that is very very crucial to understand why you're asking people to do something um that they want to do.
(10:41):
Uh And maybe 1/4 item is uh honestly,
and this is also something I learned from my,
my my previous boss.
Um I prefer black and white scenarios,
you know,
the world I know is a very gray area.
There's never a,
you know,
there are,
you don't have a fixed,
you know human beings always have a spectrum of emotion spectrum of actions but as far as possible when it comes to like rules and priorities and decision making.
(11:08):
I have always found it to be extremely transparent and clear about my my my black and white rules in other words,
no gray areas as much as possible.
Um because the downside of human beings being somewhat in the great operating in the area is it makes people all of us somewhat irrational.
You know,
we make decisions sometimes that you know may not be um the best in our interests but we do it.
(11:32):
I mean chris you remember this right?
Apple was big on,
we had you know planeloads of people flying to china on a daily basis literally,
you know,
I mean if you go to san Francisco airport today and if you take any airline flying to china I guarantee you that there's at least five people from Apple in the business class every single flight every single day,
(11:53):
every single month of the,
of the year.
You know,
and when people go out there there are people who you know who will expense,
I don't know like a bottle of whiskey for lunch for example,
they'll cut corners,
you know,
and it's just naturally even though these people are making a lot of money and we have very strict rules if you remember chris right,
we would fire people.
This was this was a no,
no,
you know,
(12:13):
you would not actually cannot accept gifts from your partners.
Um we couldn't,
when we went to lunch and dinner with our,
with our partners,
people,
we work with our vendors in any other company,
they would take you out for golf outings,
I'm assuming right,
in our case we had to pay for our own part of the dinner or the lunch.
So this is something I have never seen before,
(12:34):
and this was this is the normal apple,
because the rules are very,
very clear.
We do not want people to apply their,
their brains,
they're very fertile brains in uh,
in in irrational ways and so,
and they will still do it by the way,
but you know,
as far as possible,
it makes the decision making very easier,
you convey the rules very clearly.
Um and I totally understand that it's not possible to get to black and white in all scenarios,
(12:59):
but as much as possible as a leader of my job is,
you know,
I say,
if I can convince with crystal clarity what I'm thinking,
I'm gonna have a lot less friction in getting my point across,
you know,
when I say something,
people are going to know what I mean.
Um and you know when I mean something specific,
I'm just going to say,
you know exactly as I mean it yeah,
(13:20):
I love that a lot and and it's interesting because yeah,
I mean companies like Apple that have that culture of principles,
right?
They vertically like hold deep two principles like that,
right?
Where it's and there's a lot of reasons for it because they don't want to be swayed or influenced by right?
The,
you know,
different organizations.
(13:40):
So of course they hold fast right to those principles and they expect that from,
from leaders and uh you know,
now you mentioned the going to china,
I did that,
you know,
we did that together a few times and I still remember,
yeah,
that's right.
Yeah.
I remember being at the,
you know,
the customs or the or the checking in through the security and you know,
(14:02):
getting into Israel,
you almost got arrested I think yeah,
I think I was detained and you're like,
let me just wait a minute with you because you know,
I don't want to just being stuck in some dark room and you know,
um so there's like,
you know,
I appreciated that,
you know,
saved my life a few times.
I'm sure um there's one in china,
(14:22):
I remember now it's amazing.
Most people don't know this and I can put this out there,
but this has to do to with Apple's principles about quality.
Um being on the factory line.
I remember going to the those places and just seeing the builds of the iphone and the meticulous hand uh you know the manual kind of hand hand hand building,
(14:46):
you know,
focus of,
you know all the way down the line that is completely really unique to them now.
The funny thing as I'm walking through the line I think I was there with you um or maybe you know we're on the same trip and then of course you know I'm the Hr guy right?
So I'm walking down the line and but then suddenly you know,
since I'm from,
you know uh corporate,
you know this big group of clusters around me and they're like hey this guy's a V.
(15:09):
I.
P.
And they just kind of waiting for me to like say something about the technical aspects of the phone.
Like that looks good.
I'm just not in my head like yeah that's good.
Good.
Yeah that's good.
You know of course I was yeah.
Um so that was you know they were waiting for some words of wisdom from you or maybe you know words of encouragement and so I think you did that.
(15:32):
That was good.
Yeah it's not in my head and smile,
you know and you guys are doing great.
So um but yeah that was I mean truly amazing experience uh you know and then culturally right every culture has you know company culture to kind of has their principles and and you have yours right as a leader and and I'm curious like you know what that journey has been for you,
(15:56):
you know and shifting and you know and uh and you know to facebook and meta,
you know what maybe part of your learning journey to and what experiences you've had that have been definitive maybe there.
Yeah,
so let me maybe a little background my head because I think you know I've been fortunate to work only in a few companies,
I'm not,
you know,
I've had a generally long stable career in each other places I worked.
(16:19):
So I started my my my career at Qualcomm,
very heavy technology company,
very proud of its uh you know technology focus clearly,
you know,
we learned about the people who started the company as you know,
as as as founders of or inventors of algorithms back in in in in graduate school,
so you're talking about Ben Jacobs,
(16:39):
you're talking about Viterbi,
these are people that are the gods of the communication Pantheon and so you're working in a company,
so that was a very different cultural.
Uh you know every company has a culture because clearly everybody knows that probably everybody understands that and it starts somewhat at the top how it began.
So cool calm was a very technology focused company,
(17:00):
you know everything,
you know if you're a smart person,
you would get recognized,
you know,
you could you know talk on on on on its merits.
Um you know you could get things done if you're a smart person,
people will listen to you.
Apple very different.
Again.
Apple paid a lot more attention on,
you know uh let's call it uh I don't want to say an alliance with but almost uh alignment alignment with the with the leader's vision,
(17:29):
so if you believed in what steve jobs was saying then you would like,
you know you you had to drink the kool Aid,
we always joke about it,
remember,
you know,
so you need to work at Apple and I worked there for nine years,
you know,
so you work at Apple,
you have to do the cooler because it's a very very hard work,
you know,
I kid you not,
you know,
and I I joke about this when I when I when I meet with my friends,
(17:50):
I cannot remember many days when I would come home before eight o'clock,
you know,
I I live very close to where the company's campuses and my wife is,
what do you just like stick out there because you know you like,
you know you don't come home what's going on,
you know,
why don't you come home before it and I'm like no I can't because my entire team is over there,
I gotta work,
you know china wakes up um you know by the time it's afternoon here,
(18:12):
so by default I've always got stuff you know that I could do,
you know,
I could do more,
so it's really up to me when to stop and I simply you can't stop at six or seven o'clock,
I have to do that extra bit and you do that because you have drank the kool aid,
you know,
you want to change the world,
you want to make a disruption and you want to do your little part.
So Apple has this very visionary driven culture where you there's this chip on the shoulders were always like,
(18:36):
you know behind somebody and we always want to go and and make a mark and we used to quit making a dent in the universe,
right?
That's exactly what steve jobs told um uh Scully I think right,
you know uh from uh from Pepsi,
do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life or do you wanna come and you know make a dent in the universe change the world.
Um So I like that term very much.
I always use that I want to make a little dent in the universe,
(18:58):
you know,
whatever it might be.
And so that was the culture for Apple.
But the downside of course was very,
very hard.
You know,
in terms of work life balance,
you have to dedicate yourself.
The Apple will take you and some more um facebook.
My transition to facebook four years ago,
I gotta say probably again was one of the,
(19:19):
I've been fortunate to probably have made either,
you know,
good wise decisions or maybe I'm a very real optimist that I any decision I make,
I just said that was the best one,
let's move on.
So it has turned out to be quite,
that's probably it,
I think it is not that the decisions are wise,
it's just that I feel like the otherwise,
but the facebook culture is entirely 180 degrees opposite and I I kid you not,
(19:43):
I when I when the first you know I was,
they were recruiting me,
I would have never left Apple had it not been for this chance to make a dent in the university,
right.
I had as you know,
we we built basically any any Apple device that had a radio in it,
you know,
I was involved with it.
So I literally billions and billions of iphones,
ipads,
(20:04):
watches max,
you name it,
they all have,
you know,
my little fingerprint on it somewhere.
But the connectivity team at facebook had a very different mission,
you know,
I had worked on the consumer devices,
but the way they recruited me was it was a chance to bring connectivity to the under connected or unconnected half of the world's population,
(20:25):
right?
We talked about four G and we talked about five G.
But even now even in the U.
S.
There are populations that do not have a good connectivity like you and me take for granted today and it has,
it has been extremely underscore this need over the last couple of years as you can tell everybody's working,
there are kids who have to go and you probably read this,
(20:46):
there are kids who have to go to the nearest Taco Bell to get access to wifi and to get access to internet so this massive divide between the haves and have nots is even more pronounced in the digital world.
So anyway connectivity was my,
that was the mission and so facebook is a very,
that's how I moved to facebook but the company is very employee focused,
(21:08):
it is unbelievable.
I thought this was initially after all this is just a marketing ploy,
yeah,
what do you mean?
You get to work on what you got to but four years on,
I tell you um a lot of care about the company,
a better person,
a lot of care about the employee,
you are always encouraged to do the best that you can be,
you know in the place that you can be,
(21:28):
you're always encouraged to um I would say be open being bold,
you know,
do things that you know would not,
but do the best you can is another way to put that,
you know um and the fact that for example,
you know people,
one of the first companies to shut down and and make everybody go remote two years ago,
the first company to publicly state along with maybe google that okay,
(21:50):
we want to encourage remote work,
you know,
I think Mark has made public statements about half the company by the end of this decade decade,
um he wants half the company working entirely remotely doesn't want anybody in the offices.
Uh and we have one of the few companies to really be the,
we still are fully not,
you know,
back in the office.
You know,
we first,
I think june sorry,
March 1st week was when we officially opened uh for the first time,
(22:15):
many,
many months after most companies were already back.
So we're very careful.
We want to ensure that our workforce,
so there's this inherent care about the employees that comes through and you,
you've been,
you've been to the office,
you've seen our campus,
haven't you?
Chris it's nice to get back to that gelato.
He is a beautiful campus and I was happy to show you around chris,
(22:38):
you've got to come back again now.
Now I think that,
that opening up,
I think we are having our visitors come back.
It is like,
it is like the boardwalk,
what is it,
the,
the universal walk,
the studio.
If you go to Universal Studios,
they have this boardwalk outside,
isn't it?
Yeah.
Like the Disney store fronts,
you know,
mainstream.
Yeah,
it's fun.
It's fun.
And any of the food is great.
Yeah.
(22:59):
And you can feel it,
right?
You can feel what you said.
It's like,
hey,
there's this employee folks,
there's an experience,
right?
Um yeah,
no,
that's,
that's uh and,
and it's,
yeah,
it's great to see to when companies can take a stand like that and that's in favor of right?
People's life experiences,
right?
Because yeah I mean we we've all experienced a lot of change.
(23:21):
Yeah.
Yeah it's good.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
And one more thing I will add on that.
This is something that again is I think very unique to facebook.
I have not seen that in other companies.
It's the diversity,
the diversity of thought,
The diversity of actions.
I mean it is so heavily actively encouraged because and you've probably heard mark said this multiple times that we are building a communication system for the whole planet.
(23:46):
We cannot build it with you know 2500 people in in the bay area in California that doesn't represent the population at all.
You know,
of the global population.
We're not even talking about the US population.
So there is a extreme effort and focus on diverse ideas.
You know encouraging diverse ideas of all kinds.
(24:06):
You know it's not just gender and race and and ethnicity and you know sexual orientation is much much beyond that.
Just be open,
be who you are when you come to work.
That is encouraged.
You know,
it is a one of the principal tenants and I have I found it to be incredibly refreshing,
you know because you you don't have to like you know put on some kind of a clock every time you walk in of course you have to be respectful,
(24:28):
you have to be trusting of other people but you really can say what is kind of on your mind in obviously in a respectful manner.
You don't want to put anybody down or you know,
you don't like,
you know,
uh like I said make it uncomfortable for people,
but you are welcome to be who you are.
You know,
people come up dressed in all kinds of weird ways,
(24:49):
you know,
it's a very fun environment and and it is encouraged because you want people to,
you know,
we want to get opinions from the whole planet as the only way we're going to make the product represent the whole planet or you know,
be relevant to the whole planet.
Yeah.
And and as you're talking,
I keep thinking in terms of,
you know,
product and platform,
right?
So like because an apple for example,
(25:12):
like part of the experience there was people would show up and they would embody right,
essentially what the products are,
right?
So they're there,
they're there the way they operate based on the culture.
Yeah,
they're drinking the kool Aid,
but they're also intuitive right there,
keeping it simple and focused,
you know,
like,
like you what you would expect from an apple product,
(25:32):
They are being that right?
Yes.
And then as you're talking now with facebook,
it's granted it's bigger than that,
you know,
with meta kind of across platforms,
I'm getting a sense too that like,
hey that community feel that you have with the facebook platform,
like people show up,
right?
As they are And uh,
and then that's part of,
that's built into the culture.
(25:54):
Yeah,
that's a very,
that's a very astute observation.
Uh,
chris I think you're absolutely now that you say you are absolutely right,
you know,
at Apple,
it is all about high quality,
high performance,
simplify,
simplification and focus as you know,
always used to be,
we heard you talk about it,
simplify things,
make it easy for them to use and the people come across like that.
(26:15):
Well,
employees are focused on the product we want,
there is a high bar,
um,
you want them to show up like,
you know,
the product is,
and exactly on facebook,
you know,
you want to be inclusive,
You want it to be nourishing and encouraging and people will come do come across like their product,
That's,
that's a good one.
We become the product.
(26:37):
Yeah,
it's inevitable.
Yeah.
And,
and then,
you know,
I mean,
probably a lot of people are wondering,
wow,
okay,
so just Apple alone for somebody to not just get into Apple,
but to be and play at the executive level that you did and then to do that at facebook or meta now,
um,
and to have experiences with,
(26:58):
you know,
Yeah,
people like Mark and to be building what you're building to connect the world,
you know,
that's it's this kind of the dream,
right?
We talk about,
hey,
what's,
what's the dream?
And you have your dream list,
I've had my dream list.
It was Disney and Apple,
right?
And so I think people are probably wondering like,
well,
you know,
what does it take?
How do you know,
(27:18):
what was your focus to begin with?
Like if you,
you know,
roll back the curtain to,
you know,
j deep and kind of starting,
you know,
your,
you know,
your initial kind of career,
was there was there what,
what were the elements or roots of your success really beginning to where you,
where you are now.
Yeah,
so I think that is,
you know,
I've reflected on this,
(27:39):
you know,
so many times,
you know,
you go to all these uh,
you know,
company sessions,
leadership sessions,
there's always like a life map.
You know,
people ask you what your life map,
you know,
and I've done many of these things over,
over my uh,
over my career and my life,
including when I did my M.
B.
A.
You know,
we went to a similar exercise.
It's like taking stock of,
you know,
how the hell did you get where you are?
(28:01):
What were the key?
And I got to tell you the,
the answer I realize it's probably not as interesting as as as I would have liked.
Um,
so for example,
I've had,
like I said,
people with extreme,
you know,
uh,
let's call it challenges as they were as they were growing up not personal front and I've been fortunate not to have,
you know,
many,
(28:21):
many of those um,
they have had to overcome significant,
you know,
let's say hurdles and I've been fortunate not to have to,
you know,
deal with that.
So when I look back at my,
my life,
it just feels somewhat plain and vanilla,
you know,
to be very honest with you,
but I'm like okay,
I'll take it and I don't want too many challenges.
But the one thing I'll say a few things you know that that you mentioned,
(28:42):
I did not start off,
I never started off with with a specific kind of end goal in mind and that goes back to what I told you at the very beginning about the inquisitive behavior,
right?
If you keep your mind open about the possibilities of what could happen,
then you are freeing it up to do things in an unconstrained manner.
(29:02):
That's just my belief you know,
and that may be very different from principal leaders who have one thing I am going to send a man to mars maybe you need to be Elon musk.
That's a different style of leadership.
That's great and you can get a lot of things done with that.
I'm just saying from what worked for me was keeping it open in other words,
another metaphor I always use is like you know,
life is like a like a like a fast running river,
(29:25):
you know,
I mean if you run if you're done in the river rafting,
you know what I'm talking about,
there are class two rapids,
there are class four rapids and the boats that make it to the end are not deep heavy keel boats that are strong and heavy,
they're going run into the first rock that comes across,
you have to be like a raft,
light and flexible and you'll be able to ride the waves and go around corners,
(29:45):
flip over a couple of times,
come back up again.
That's the only way you make it to the other end of life.
So I have tried to live my life,
you know,
and my career like that in other words,
keep your mind open.
Do the your principles are what is guiding you,
you know,
your skills and your principles are like the oars in the rapid,
that's all you've got,
you know that you've got nothing else that you can control.
(30:06):
You know,
you have only those things in your mind and and life is gonna throw you different things along the way,
right?
The water's gonna do this one way or the other.
So you've got to be able to use those principles,
you know,
to the best of your abilities and navigate the course.
You keep your principles,
but keep keep it open,
you know,
you know,
keep it inquisitive,
you get thrown a challenge,
you work on it,
you know,
So I I did that my whole life,
(30:27):
you know,
whatever it was,
I'll give an example back at qualcomm,
you know,
this was back in the 2000,
you know,
it's known as a cd in my company.
If you recollect right,
you guys know qualcomm is known as the company that you know,
it's all about C.
D.
M.
A.
There was a new technology and in only 2000 we realized that hey if you wanted to get to this new standard called three G,
it was all about umTS.
(30:49):
Qualcomm realized you could not sell chip sets or modems as they're called without having GSM,
you know,
the hated technology.
No,
no,
but Holcomb likes GSM.
It was called the Holy Wars of the late 19 nineties if you recollect,
but we had to have GSM technology in the chip and that I remember I was saying sometimes you have two things in have to have things that you know that don't work because otherwise you can't sell a product.
(31:13):
GSM was like that,
you could not make a cell phone back in the 32,000 if it could not operate on this much popular to G system.
So I was one of the few people in the company tasked with working on two G on this GSM and people used to make fun of me saying you're supposed to be in the city made company,
you are the vanguard.
Why the heck are you working on this old technology?
(31:34):
But I said no,
it's a challenge,
You know this is what we need to do,
we need to go and take care of that.
So so I focused you know on that and and we were of course very successful with three G.
And then I I eventually left before we could get to four G.
But the transition to three G.
From two G was a big big deal for qualcomm because it established them in this umTS manner in this world as a worldwide player as opposed to just the north american player.
(31:59):
So I took up the chant.
The bottom line was I was open to take on that task.
I was not,
you know,
um um fixated on a specific thing or specific activity.
I did,
I did the best same thing with Apple right?
You know an Apple when I started back in 2009,
you know,
I was asked to lead the small group called R.
F.
D.
Since you know,
nobody even knew what RFd sense meant.
(32:20):
And in a nutshell it is basically when you have a bunch of different radios operating in a small confined metal camera,
like the Apple watch for example,
they don't like to,
you know,
be with each other,
you know,
it's like a porcupine,
you're trying to stop a porcupine inside a small box,
you know,
it's going to hurt,
you know,
so that's exactly the deal with radios,
you know,
they don't like to operate with each other and so when they do they interfere with each other.
(32:42):
So we had a whole team focused on figuring out how how to make it easy for them to work with each other and not interfere with each other.
And I got so many questions as to what is it that you do,
Why are we doing this?
You know,
I have to explain this over and over and over again.
It was a very hard job,
but I said this is something that is important,
I must do it.
And so we built a team,
we took care of the stuff.
(33:03):
Um So every single time,
you know,
I've got an opportunity to do something that was not done before I took it.
You know,
I said I'm gonna it's a learning experience for me,
so I'm gonna go take I'm going to do it not because you know,
I have a specific goal in mind,
but it is something I don't know and and and it is going to make my brain a little bit more pliable and flexible and so that I think is the central theme of my at least my life.
(33:28):
You know,
when I look back now 25 years I'll be,
you know,
in the industry um since my graduate school,
it's the one common thing that I think has helped me and and made me uh you know,
generally happy with whatever work I've been doing.
And as a side effect,
genuine,
you know,
somewhat somewhat successful,
(33:50):
let's just say,
you know,
I'm doing okay.
Yeah.
The the interesting thing that you've sparked in my mind J.
D.
Because you've been talking because we've been approaching a lot of these conversations as um you know misfits in more of a cultural sense or more of a team dynamic sense but the way you're describing being a misfit in terms of that learning mindset is sparking a lot of ideas for for me.
(34:22):
And it also I think runs counter to what we often think about in terms of career progression.
Because what you're rewarded for as an individual contributor is usually expertise or some sort of unique contribution that only you can make.
And that's a mindset that helps you through you know an initial phase of your career.
(34:44):
But as soon as you start leading other people it sounds like that mindset may no longer serve you.
It may be more helpful for you to think about leadership and not not in terms of you know how can I be the most expert person in the world or in the room at the very least.
Um but how can I you know unlock the engagement of and the creativity of the people around me totally totally agree drop and and like I said don't get me wrong there are a lot of experts we need.
(35:15):
You know there are people who are designed to be you know continue to push that that that technical envelope.
For example in my scenarios you know in some,
you know,
you need of course experts,
but a leader if you want people to follow you.
You cannot I mean almost by definition you cannot be,
you know,
the the only expert in one area because then you'll have other people saying why should I follow?
(35:35):
You know,
you hear what you got to say,
you know,
I'm an expert in my own area,
I want to take advice from you.
So leadership almost by definition in my mind,
I mean becomes more and more diffused um and you become dumber in in in more and more in in your areas and that's been my experience and I'm sure there are smart leaders out there and I do consider myself visibly in a well bred um but I guarantee you I'm not I'm not half as good as people in some of the people in my team.
(36:05):
Um but that that is that is that comes from I mean I this is the again goes back to an inquisitive mind,
I have,
I have gravitated more towards learning more things,
maybe to a less deeper extent than being the expert in one area really very deep,
that is what excites me that is what keeps my brain active.
(36:26):
I like new things and and this is this is kind of you know,
it has I think helped me from a leadership perspective because because I know a lot of things about a lot of things just be very,
very clear.
You can,
I can argue with you about World War Two history,
we can talk about science,
we can talk about geography,
I mean we can speak about a lot of different things and I and I can,
(36:48):
I will be generally very accurate with whatever I'm trying to uh to say,
because I that's what I want,
I do not want to be known as the one expert in like one area,
it would it would just simply not work from my brain,
you know?
And so that's why I said at the very beginning misfit is a state of mind.
I'm continuously a misfit because I'm constantly trying to learn something new that I'm not a not a member of,
(37:12):
you know,
I'm not a part of and I'm totally okay with that the last couple of years honestly have been eye opening for for us as,
as human beings.
Um but especially in the business world for leaders and how are you gonna run companies of the future?
It is,
it is a paradigm shift,
right?
As you can imagine as people have come to expect more from their company or their their organization,
(37:35):
about support about,
you know,
um about,
you know,
understanding empathy.
Um but at the same time,
it has also become clear that the they still,
you know,
they still need some structure,
right,
You know,
you cannot just operate,
you know,
randomly in like,
you know,
in your homes and just meet once on,
on zoom call and expect things to work smoothly,
so there's also a structure required,
(37:56):
so this these two worlds of of uh of having,
you know different viewpoints,
different mechanisms,
people's times,
times are different,
there's flexibility expected,
but also having to move in one direction.
Some reaction is a big challenge for leadership,
you know,
leadership has to update and modify itself to be able to provide that fine balance of,
(38:20):
okay,
I need to give chris the flexibility that he needs to take care of his kids because they're back in from school,
he has to help them out with their resume settings at the same time.
We all need crystal engage with the three other people that he needs to work with to keep moving forward.
So how do you balance this stuff is the,
is the part that is going to be very crucial for the future right?
And I think this is for here to stay,
(38:42):
I don't think we are going back to a world where people are going to expect to come in 9 to 5,
it's not gonna happen maybe in some industries,
but simply not going to happen.
And so that is where this inquisitive mindset is a must,
because we don't know the answer,
you know,
nobody knows the exact answer right now,
so if you start off with something that is like,
you know a second stone,
(39:04):
you're probably not going to like the result.
So you gotta make one step forward,
then you gotta tack into the wind,
you know,
you're going to find something else that you can change again.
And so you have to start off by saying to people guys,
I do,
you know,
folks,
I do not know how this is gonna work out here is what we will do for the next few months and we will see,
you know,
whether it works or not,
(39:24):
and please tell me if this works or not,
and if it doesn't,
we'll make a change again.
Um and that's leadership because you're stating very clearly what your intent is,
you are providing guidance and direction for the short term,
but also being open to the feedback and being open to modifying things as required.
So you kind of like,
you know,
this is,
it's become crystal clear to us now,
(39:45):
you know,
it's been very interesting last couple of years,
you know,
and I don't know um how we,
we,
we go back,
I don't think so,
you're tapping into something too.
That is,
it's,
it's that shift from and we think we call it logos versus pathos,
which,
you know,
in the past,
that science of management has been very stacked,
right?
It's like,
hey,
I've got my agenda,
(40:06):
maybe one directional,
right?
It's like,
hey,
just sign up and do,
right?
And now to your point,
it's like this shift towards heart and mind and when having that openness or flexibility creates the possibility so people can,
can feel they belong,
right?
They feel empathy because we do not have all the answers and leaders to your point.
(40:26):
It's like you don't have the answers about everybody's life experience,
right?
And to be positioned anchoring ourselves as having all the answers.
Well,
it's just offensive to people,
right?
Because they'll say,
well you don't even know me,
right?
Like,
and you don't know my background,
my experience.
And I've always appreciated that about you as a leader and I think you embody the future that way is,
(40:46):
you know,
that connection between heart and mind that people need,
right?
And and the empathy and compassion that goes along with and actually enables the future of building because that's how also we're going to be building,
right?
These ecosystems of products and services and platforms of the future.
It's really the only way,
I mean the other thing is,
(41:08):
you know,
people don't want to be in a meeting where they say to themselves,
hey,
this leader can be replaced with a,
I like what they're saying is basically so robotic,
right?
It's just spitting right out of google like there's no point to this versus hey,
this person they're down to earth,
like they're connecting with me.
Yes,
they have a point of view.
Um,
but they're inviting me into something.
(41:29):
Um and we're connecting,
right?
I mean the other,
the other point,
you're kind of,
you're making too about this hybrid scenario is people have invited their work into their home now and there's no way around that.
And that's not like that's not going to change.
And so they have expectations about their home where they would say,
hey,
I let certain things in my home and other things not,
I don't want that like whatever it is or the or the,
(41:52):
you know,
say that um you know,
I call it,
you know,
miss mistreatment,
but it's hey,
it's just what I want is heartfelt.
I want connection.
I want to feel like I'm collaborating and working with people together.
I like the term you said,
I will use it.
I like what you said about people,
we have invited our work into our home because it was necessary,
(42:13):
right?
The fact that I want to zoom call and the kids running in the bag,
dogs and you know,
spilled coffee.
You have a window,
all of us have got a window into our colleagues lives that we have never had before,
right?
It is unbelievable.
You know,
this level of access,
you could you could call yourself all of us privileged to actually see what is going on in their lives in a manner that really was is unprecedented.
(42:37):
And so,
you know,
it is it is it is interesting that,
you know,
that that we want to make use of that.
My point is we want to be able to capitalize on that and like connect at the level that is simply not not what it was not possible before and,
and,
and,
and leverage that,
you know,
to get the best out of people.
Yeah.
And it was perceived differently before,
right?
Like,
like you remember that the video of the news guy where he's like,
(42:59):
his son's coming through his toddlers coming through the door,
he's pushing him back,
right?
It's all about like,
image,
like just right?
And like,
that is so not the case now,
right?
Like now if somebody shows up and we have this happen and actually at work,
it actually is the opposite.
Yeah,
It's the opposite reaction.
You're like,
wow.
Like,
oh,
that's cool.
You know,
like,
hey,
there's the newest member of the team,
(43:20):
right?
Like it's like a wave,
Yes,
Say hi to Tommy and you know,
yeah,
it actually said,
you know,
I've learned,
I've seen people's cats,
you know,
they're they're,
you know,
they're best friends and their wives,
you know,
their Children.
I mean,
they're they're hobbies in the background.
You know,
it is unbelief,
you know what,
like I said,
the insides you get into people's lives and their privileged to get that.
(43:42):
Um,
you know,
remember this whole background originally when we first started this,
there was this whole,
you know,
joke about what funny backgrounds you could put behind nowadays,
nobody cares anymore,
you know,
now just to see what's behind me and,
you know,
fine,
well in this,
in this,
it's getting to a place now because of this and it's interesting,
it's like an inadvertent reality that's it's created is as far as principles like it,
(44:09):
you know,
we talk,
we talk about,
you know,
working life and it used to be in this discussion about balance,
right,
and,
and I think that's also gone away to a large extent because it's all blended now,
right?
It's this blended life of working life.
And the other thing is,
is that,
well,
this offers an opportunity where it's really felt,
which is,
it is not only blended,
(44:29):
but,
you know,
the,
I think the future in addition to being co creative and the things we've talked about being a misfit in a sense of staying in learning mode.
It's also the reality of living principles and living in such a way where you're one right,
You're you're you're one in in how you show up for work and how you show up for life.
(44:51):
And that was said of,
you know,
Covey,
Stephen Covey taught that and and his,
his funeral,
his son said that about him.
He said he,
you know,
he was one right and if you met him in person,
you knew,
you knew,
you knew my father like as he was.
Yeah.
And I think that is,
there's probably no,
there's not that I know of a more powerful statement about somebody.
(45:12):
Uh and I would certainly,
I've seen that in you as a leader and as a person,
as a human being and I appreciate that deeply because it inspires me and I think a lot of people I know your team to be not just better leaders and better at what they do at their work,
(45:33):
but better human beings,
right?
And,
and and to strive to be one right where you know how you show up and granted,
you know,
we play different roles,
right?
You know,
father,
you know,
you know,
husband,
you know,
um work associate leader,
but the reality is,
is those principles when they're when they're the same,
(45:54):
when it's learning mode in all those categories,
right?
When it's co creation in all those categories,
how powerful is that?
And I just,
I can't say enough about how much you've shown me that over the years,
but also what you shared as far as principles and how those can benefit and you know,
people in their lives and thank you for for for that thank thank you chris that is so heartwarming,
(46:21):
I want to just again,
thank you once again,
you know,
for all the,
for the friendship and for for for all the kind words,
you know,
like I said,
I'm sure not all of them are very deserved,
but I truly appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
This episode of lead with the question was produced by me rob calen with support from my co hosts and brave core founders,
(46:48):
chris,
Deaver and Ian clawson.
The music you heard was composed by Ian as part of another project he's involved in called Moon Machine Dave Arcade created our podcast Cover Art special Thanks to JD Promenade for the conversation today and for providing a blueprint to building a life and career based on a willingness to be a principled misfit.
(47:11):
Also,
we really appreciate you for taking the time to co create these conversations with us,
especially when there are so many other things you could be doing.
If you found any value at all in these episodes,
could you do a favor?
Leave us a rating,
even a review wherever you're listening right now.
It takes about two minutes and helps others discover the show as well.
(47:33):
If you want to learn more about the work we're doing at Brave Core,
you can check out our website at Brave Core dot c.
O.
The lead with a Question podcast is a production of Brave Core LLC.
this is lead with a question every single time.
You know,
I got an opportunity to do something that was not done before I took it.
You know,
I said I'm gonna it's a learning experience for me.
So I'm gonna go take,
I'm gonna do it not because you know,
(00:22):
I have a specific goal in mind,
but it is something I don't know and and it is going to make my brain a little bit more pliable and flexible.
Hi,
I'm rob Callan,
we live in a time when people are seeing that the old way of doing business is broken and that leading into the future requires something new.
(00:47):
A deeper focus on humanity,
the courage to let go of power and ego,
a desire to nurture the conditions for co creation and the bravery,
not to have all the answers on this show.
I along with my friends,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson connect with guests who embody these principles and whether household names or not they've shattered the status quo,
(01:13):
often as misfits to shape the future with others and achieve miraculous things in work and life.
Let's dig into the misfit principle for a minute,
what is a misfit really is a misfit defined by language,
culture,
appearance or personality.
We've tapped into that topic before.
(01:34):
But today our guest has a different take one that has a lot to do with seeking out opportunities to learn and be stretched as a leader and for him it all starts with a set of core values,
none of which actually includes being more talented or intelligent than anyone else in the room in this personal account,
he'll guide us through his experiences seeking answers to the question,
(01:58):
what are your first principles as a leader?
A conversation with Jaideep renege on this episode of lead with a question,
(02:28):
I'm always get this inquisitive attitude,
You've got to start with this fundamental learning mode.
And so if you believe that you do not know,
and if you deeply believe you do not understand everything,
then it is very natural to,
you know,
feel like a misfit basically anytime you do anything new,
right?
So I have had like,
you know,
this feeling on all the time,
let's just put it that way,
You know,
whether it is in your personal life,
(02:50):
let's say you will move into a new neighborhood.
Um,
you're trying to make friends with your kids parents,
you feel like you don't belong there.
You know,
it's as simple as that,
you know what,
you know,
you have,
they haven't any time,
there's an established country of people and you're trying to get yourself into.
It's very natural um,
to feel like a misfit.
You know,
you're learning a new musical instrument.
I've tried that,
(03:10):
you know,
I'm learning a new language,
I try to keep my brain active.
So I've been trying to learn french for the last couple of years on dual lingo?
You know,
as we've been all stuck indoors and I think I'm pretty good.
And I,
but when I started speaking to,
I attempt to speak with people who know french and really soon I realized,
man,
I don't know,
squat about,
you know,
about learning french and I mean I know the words,
(03:32):
but so you feel like what the heck did I do the last two years?
Um and at work,
of course,
you know,
work is,
it's very,
very common,
especially at the impostor syndrome.
As you know,
you probably very well known at the leadership level is very,
very common,
especially when teams are looking up to you.
Um you've been placed in,
let's say a leadership position,
you're expected to make changes.
It is very common to be like,
(03:54):
man,
I just,
I just don't belong here.
This is not what I'm used to do.
You know,
they want me to do something.
I simply can,
they seem to have a group of activities,
things are going very well,
what,
what am I going to do differently over here?
So feeling like a misfit is a very,
um,
I would say common phenomena.
Um and it happens any time,
(04:15):
at least in my opinion,
my experience happens anytime you get yourself outside of your comfort zone,
you are asked to do something,
you know different than what you're normally expected to do.
Um like I said,
it's professional life or,
you know,
your personal life,
you're gonna feel delivered,
you know,
are in there,
but that goes hand in hand,
(04:35):
at least in my opinion with the,
like I said,
the learning mode.
So if you comfortable with the learning more than this is a very natural state to be in.
So the knowledge that you roll up your sleeves and then you say,
I don't know,
and then you ask stupid questions of people and you make it clear to people saying I guys,
I do not understand this part.
I'm gonna ask these very basic questions,
Please bear with me.
(04:56):
And so you start with that attitude and that helps you get over that that very soon.
Um ask questions like I said,
and I realized honestly people will will reciprocate that very,
very easily.
Like I said,
if you come with humility and if you don't come in assuming I,
I have the answer for everything.
People will actually give you a lot of slack.
(05:17):
That's a lot of slack.
Yeah,
especially to your point,
you know,
to go into a room where there are people that are so brilliant right?
Technically and literally like world class,
right?
Like you're not gonna find people probably smarter in those areas right where,
and then they get in a room and you know,
and hey,
okay phds white papers,
(05:37):
they read about this,
but you know,
we're gonna,
we're gonna create this something that is never like,
okay,
you know,
we're going to create the impossible,
we're gonna do it together and that sense of humility,
right?
In a sense or learning mode was just so prevalent,
it's it's really and it's fundamental right?
But it's it's a paradox because you know,
uh most of the time that doesn't happen right in the world,
(05:59):
it's so people get so caught up in this notion of expertise and in a sense of like protectionism or or as you said,
I mean it's it's essentially the,
it's like the foundation of imposter syndrome is this self created sense of knowing,
right?
And so then it gets in the way it creates this false barriers.
I'm curious to,
(06:21):
you know,
if we think about kind of the engineering side of like,
okay,
there's the first principles right that you break down and say,
what are those things that make for the best design?
Uh and in this case for you,
you can say,
hey,
what are your first principles for being a leader?
You've alluded to this one,
we were talking about,
what else would you add to that list?
(06:42):
Yeah,
I think,
you know,
I um that's a very good question,
you know,
uh leadership.
So first of all,
let me state that leadership has to start,
like I said with knowing that you do not know everything,
you know,
and that's what I called,
you have to be continuously in this learning mode,
a good leader in my opinion at least is always always always learning um and I call it keeping my kind of brain,
(07:09):
it's like,
you know,
like a like a muscle,
like,
you know,
if you don't,
you know,
if you don't exercise it,
it is going to atrophy um and that's that's why you know me chris and I'm kind of hyper energetic,
you know,
you're not,
I can't sit still and that's why I was like I said,
I I began to bike you know,
in addition to you know,
running during the lockdown,
(07:30):
I began to learn a new language,
I felt like I wanted to be,
you know,
you remember boondock,
right?
So I want,
I wanted to be uh the second half of that,
you know,
you know,
make myself,
you know,
since I've been given this time,
let me use it wisely as opposed to moping.
So the first principle always is a good leader.
(07:51):
Start with you know,
this inquisitive mind,
you know,
you have to keep in mind that you do not know everything and you are here to learn step number one.
Um the second part is always never be afraid to kind of,
you know,
build a team of people smarter than you,
right?
You know,
I've heard this from multiple leaders.
You want people who are smarter than you working for you.
(08:14):
You know,
you do not ever want to be the smartest leaders,
smartest guy in the meeting because the strongest leaders know how to buy motivate how to encourage,
how to support the smartest people around them and make them do their best and and that starts with the fundamental understanding that you are not the smartest guy,
(08:34):
you know,
the girl,
you know,
in in the room,
and that's totally okay because you're not a leader,
because you're the smartest person,
you are a leader for a variety of other reasons.
Um but this is the second principle,
you have to build a team,
you know,
a team of and I remember my old boss,
you know,
he came from the military background and there are some things that I certainly take away from from what he,
(08:55):
what he told me,
he used to talk about this being like,
you know,
a team in the trenches,
you know,
when you're in the trench,
you have to be able to trust the person next to you to be able to watch for your back,
you know,
you're trusting that person with your life and you can only do that when these are the best of the best,
you know,
so you have to have the people uh you know,
who are at the top of their game,
(09:17):
a couple of other things that also,
and there's a lot more,
by the way,
you know,
in terms of uh,
you know,
approaching leadership,
but a couple of other points clearly is always be cleared about what the objective is.
You know,
why are we trying to do certain things,
uh as opposed to,
okay,
here's the next X,
y z,
that's the what is the simple part,
(09:37):
right?
Anybody,
I always joking,
any schmuck can tell you there's a problem when it gets in front of you.
But what you need to be able to anticipate what is coming around the corner,
what is behind the building,
what's,
you know,
what's uh what's behind the hilltop there?
So if you know the why of what you're going to do something,
then it's easy to be able to tackle these problems when they show up in front of you.
(09:58):
So having this clear not star about why it is that you're doing something,
any activity is a very very crucial piece of information that you as a leader needs to constantly uh propagate,
disseminate amongst your team.
Everybody has to know.
Um why is it that we're doing something,
(10:19):
you know,
as opposed to I understand what is it that we do,
but why,
why,
why should I like,
you know,
uh perform this particular experiment?
Why should I fly to china in the middle of the night?
Why am I like,
you know,
spending,
you know,
my nights and weekends over here.
So that is very very crucial to understand why you're asking people to do something um that they want to do.
(10:41):
Uh And maybe 1/4 item is uh honestly,
and this is also something I learned from my,
my my previous boss.
Um I prefer black and white scenarios,
you know,
the world I know is a very gray area.
There's never a,
you know,
there are,
you don't have a fixed,
you know human beings always have a spectrum of emotion spectrum of actions but as far as possible when it comes to like rules and priorities and decision making.
(11:08):
I have always found it to be extremely transparent and clear about my my my black and white rules in other words,
no gray areas as much as possible.
Um because the downside of human beings being somewhat in the great operating in the area is it makes people all of us somewhat irrational.
You know,
we make decisions sometimes that you know may not be um the best in our interests but we do it.
(11:32):
I mean chris you remember this right?
Apple was big on,
we had you know planeloads of people flying to china on a daily basis literally,
you know,
I mean if you go to san Francisco airport today and if you take any airline flying to china I guarantee you that there's at least five people from Apple in the business class every single flight every single day,
(11:53):
every single month of the,
of the year.
You know,
and when people go out there there are people who you know who will expense,
I don't know like a bottle of whiskey for lunch for example,
they'll cut corners,
you know,
and it's just naturally even though these people are making a lot of money and we have very strict rules if you remember chris right,
we would fire people.
This was this was a no,
no,
you know,
(12:13):
you would not actually cannot accept gifts from your partners.
Um we couldn't,
when we went to lunch and dinner with our,
with our partners,
people,
we work with our vendors in any other company,
they would take you out for golf outings,
I'm assuming right,
in our case we had to pay for our own part of the dinner or the lunch.
So this is something I have never seen before,
(12:34):
and this was this is the normal apple,
because the rules are very,
very clear.
We do not want people to apply their,
their brains,
they're very fertile brains in uh,
in in irrational ways and so,
and they will still do it by the way,
but you know,
as far as possible,
it makes the decision making very easier,
you convey the rules very clearly.
Um and I totally understand that it's not possible to get to black and white in all scenarios,
(12:59):
but as much as possible as a leader of my job is,
you know,
I say,
if I can convince with crystal clarity what I'm thinking,
I'm gonna have a lot less friction in getting my point across,
you know,
when I say something,
people are going to know what I mean.
Um and you know when I mean something specific,
I'm just going to say,
you know exactly as I mean it yeah,
(13:20):
I love that a lot and and it's interesting because yeah,
I mean companies like Apple that have that culture of principles,
right?
They vertically like hold deep two principles like that,
right?
Where it's and there's a lot of reasons for it because they don't want to be swayed or influenced by right?
The,
you know,
different organizations.
(13:40):
So of course they hold fast right to those principles and they expect that from,
from leaders and uh you know,
now you mentioned the going to china,
I did that,
you know,
we did that together a few times and I still remember,
yeah,
that's right.
Yeah.
I remember being at the,
you know,
the customs or the or the checking in through the security and you know,
(14:02):
getting into Israel,
you almost got arrested I think yeah,
I think I was detained and you're like,
let me just wait a minute with you because you know,
I don't want to just being stuck in some dark room and you know,
um so there's like,
you know,
I appreciated that,
you know,
saved my life a few times.
I'm sure um there's one in china,
(14:22):
I remember now it's amazing.
Most people don't know this and I can put this out there,
but this has to do to with Apple's principles about quality.
Um being on the factory line.
I remember going to the those places and just seeing the builds of the iphone and the meticulous hand uh you know the manual kind of hand hand hand building,
(14:46):
you know,
focus of,
you know all the way down the line that is completely really unique to them now.
The funny thing as I'm walking through the line I think I was there with you um or maybe you know we're on the same trip and then of course you know I'm the Hr guy right?
So I'm walking down the line and but then suddenly you know,
since I'm from,
you know uh corporate,
you know this big group of clusters around me and they're like hey this guy's a V.
(15:09):
I.
P.
And they just kind of waiting for me to like say something about the technical aspects of the phone.
Like that looks good.
I'm just not in my head like yeah that's good.
Good.
Yeah that's good.
You know of course I was yeah.
Um so that was you know they were waiting for some words of wisdom from you or maybe you know words of encouragement and so I think you did that.
(15:32):
That was good.
Yeah it's not in my head and smile,
you know and you guys are doing great.
So um but yeah that was I mean truly amazing experience uh you know and then culturally right every culture has you know company culture to kind of has their principles and and you have yours right as a leader and and I'm curious like you know what that journey has been for you,
(15:56):
you know and shifting and you know and uh and you know to facebook and meta,
you know what maybe part of your learning journey to and what experiences you've had that have been definitive maybe there.
Yeah,
so let me maybe a little background my head because I think you know I've been fortunate to work only in a few companies,
I'm not,
you know,
I've had a generally long stable career in each other places I worked.
(16:19):
So I started my my my career at Qualcomm,
very heavy technology company,
very proud of its uh you know technology focus clearly,
you know,
we learned about the people who started the company as you know,
as as as founders of or inventors of algorithms back in in in in graduate school,
so you're talking about Ben Jacobs,
(16:39):
you're talking about Viterbi,
these are people that are the gods of the communication Pantheon and so you're working in a company,
so that was a very different cultural.
Uh you know every company has a culture because clearly everybody knows that probably everybody understands that and it starts somewhat at the top how it began.
So cool calm was a very technology focused company,
(17:00):
you know everything,
you know if you're a smart person,
you would get recognized,
you know,
you could you know talk on on on on its merits.
Um you know you could get things done if you're a smart person,
people will listen to you.
Apple very different.
Again.
Apple paid a lot more attention on,
you know uh let's call it uh I don't want to say an alliance with but almost uh alignment alignment with the with the leader's vision,
(17:29):
so if you believed in what steve jobs was saying then you would like,
you know you you had to drink the kool Aid,
we always joke about it,
remember,
you know,
so you need to work at Apple and I worked there for nine years,
you know,
so you work at Apple,
you have to do the cooler because it's a very very hard work,
you know,
I kid you not,
you know,
and I I joke about this when I when I when I meet with my friends,
(17:50):
I cannot remember many days when I would come home before eight o'clock,
you know,
I I live very close to where the company's campuses and my wife is,
what do you just like stick out there because you know you like,
you know you don't come home what's going on,
you know,
why don't you come home before it and I'm like no I can't because my entire team is over there,
I gotta work,
you know china wakes up um you know by the time it's afternoon here,
(18:12):
so by default I've always got stuff you know that I could do,
you know,
I could do more,
so it's really up to me when to stop and I simply you can't stop at six or seven o'clock,
I have to do that extra bit and you do that because you have drank the kool aid,
you know,
you want to change the world,
you want to make a disruption and you want to do your little part.
So Apple has this very visionary driven culture where you there's this chip on the shoulders were always like,
(18:36):
you know behind somebody and we always want to go and and make a mark and we used to quit making a dent in the universe,
right?
That's exactly what steve jobs told um uh Scully I think right,
you know uh from uh from Pepsi,
do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life or do you wanna come and you know make a dent in the universe change the world.
Um So I like that term very much.
I always use that I want to make a little dent in the universe,
(18:58):
you know,
whatever it might be.
And so that was the culture for Apple.
But the downside of course was very,
very hard.
You know,
in terms of work life balance,
you have to dedicate yourself.
The Apple will take you and some more um facebook.
My transition to facebook four years ago,
I gotta say probably again was one of the,
(19:19):
I've been fortunate to probably have made either,
you know,
good wise decisions or maybe I'm a very real optimist that I any decision I make,
I just said that was the best one,
let's move on.
So it has turned out to be quite,
that's probably it,
I think it is not that the decisions are wise,
it's just that I feel like the otherwise,
but the facebook culture is entirely 180 degrees opposite and I I kid you not,
(19:43):
I when I when the first you know I was,
they were recruiting me,
I would have never left Apple had it not been for this chance to make a dent in the university,
right.
I had as you know,
we we built basically any any Apple device that had a radio in it,
you know,
I was involved with it.
So I literally billions and billions of iphones,
ipads,
(20:04):
watches max,
you name it,
they all have,
you know,
my little fingerprint on it somewhere.
But the connectivity team at facebook had a very different mission,
you know,
I had worked on the consumer devices,
but the way they recruited me was it was a chance to bring connectivity to the under connected or unconnected half of the world's population,
(20:25):
right?
We talked about four G and we talked about five G.
But even now even in the U.
S.
There are populations that do not have a good connectivity like you and me take for granted today and it has,
it has been extremely underscore this need over the last couple of years as you can tell everybody's working,
there are kids who have to go and you probably read this,
(20:46):
there are kids who have to go to the nearest Taco Bell to get access to wifi and to get access to internet so this massive divide between the haves and have nots is even more pronounced in the digital world.
So anyway connectivity was my,
that was the mission and so facebook is a very,
that's how I moved to facebook but the company is very employee focused,
(21:08):
it is unbelievable.
I thought this was initially after all this is just a marketing ploy,
yeah,
what do you mean?
You get to work on what you got to but four years on,
I tell you um a lot of care about the company,
a better person,
a lot of care about the employee,
you are always encouraged to do the best that you can be,
you know in the place that you can be,
(21:28):
you're always encouraged to um I would say be open being bold,
you know,
do things that you know would not,
but do the best you can is another way to put that,
you know um and the fact that for example,
you know people,
one of the first companies to shut down and and make everybody go remote two years ago,
the first company to publicly state along with maybe google that okay,
(21:50):
we want to encourage remote work,
you know,
I think Mark has made public statements about half the company by the end of this decade decade,
um he wants half the company working entirely remotely doesn't want anybody in the offices.
Uh and we have one of the few companies to really be the,
we still are fully not,
you know,
back in the office.
You know,
we first,
I think june sorry,
March 1st week was when we officially opened uh for the first time,
(22:15):
many,
many months after most companies were already back.
So we're very careful.
We want to ensure that our workforce,
so there's this inherent care about the employees that comes through and you,
you've been,
you've been to the office,
you've seen our campus,
haven't you?
Chris it's nice to get back to that gelato.
He is a beautiful campus and I was happy to show you around chris,
(22:38):
you've got to come back again now.
Now I think that,
that opening up,
I think we are having our visitors come back.
It is like,
it is like the boardwalk,
what is it,
the,
the universal walk,
the studio.
If you go to Universal Studios,
they have this boardwalk outside,
isn't it?
Yeah.
Like the Disney store fronts,
you know,
mainstream.
Yeah,
it's fun.
It's fun.
And any of the food is great.
Yeah.
(22:59):
And you can feel it,
right?
You can feel what you said.
It's like,
hey,
there's this employee folks,
there's an experience,
right?
Um yeah,
no,
that's,
that's uh and,
and it's,
yeah,
it's great to see to when companies can take a stand like that and that's in favor of right?
People's life experiences,
right?
Because yeah I mean we we've all experienced a lot of change.
(23:21):
Yeah.
Yeah it's good.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
And one more thing I will add on that.
This is something that again is I think very unique to facebook.
I have not seen that in other companies.
It's the diversity,
the diversity of thought,
The diversity of actions.
I mean it is so heavily actively encouraged because and you've probably heard mark said this multiple times that we are building a communication system for the whole planet.
(23:46):
We cannot build it with you know 2500 people in in the bay area in California that doesn't represent the population at all.
You know,
of the global population.
We're not even talking about the US population.
So there is a extreme effort and focus on diverse ideas.
You know encouraging diverse ideas of all kinds.
(24:06):
You know it's not just gender and race and and ethnicity and you know sexual orientation is much much beyond that.
Just be open,
be who you are when you come to work.
That is encouraged.
You know,
it is a one of the principal tenants and I have I found it to be incredibly refreshing,
you know because you you don't have to like you know put on some kind of a clock every time you walk in of course you have to be respectful,
(24:28):
you have to be trusting of other people but you really can say what is kind of on your mind in obviously in a respectful manner.
You don't want to put anybody down or you know,
you don't like,
you know,
uh like I said make it uncomfortable for people,
but you are welcome to be who you are.
You know,
people come up dressed in all kinds of weird ways,
(24:49):
you know,
it's a very fun environment and and it is encouraged because you want people to,
you know,
we want to get opinions from the whole planet as the only way we're going to make the product represent the whole planet or you know,
be relevant to the whole planet.
Yeah.
And and as you're talking,
I keep thinking in terms of,
you know,
product and platform,
right?
So like because an apple for example,
(25:12):
like part of the experience there was people would show up and they would embody right,
essentially what the products are,
right?
So they're there,
they're there the way they operate based on the culture.
Yeah,
they're drinking the kool Aid,
but they're also intuitive right there,
keeping it simple and focused,
you know,
like,
like you what you would expect from an apple product,
(25:32):
They are being that right?
Yes.
And then as you're talking now with facebook,
it's granted it's bigger than that,
you know,
with meta kind of across platforms,
I'm getting a sense too that like,
hey that community feel that you have with the facebook platform,
like people show up,
right?
As they are And uh,
and then that's part of,
that's built into the culture.
(25:54):
Yeah,
that's a very,
that's a very astute observation.
Uh,
chris I think you're absolutely now that you say you are absolutely right,
you know,
at Apple,
it is all about high quality,
high performance,
simplify,
simplification and focus as you know,
always used to be,
we heard you talk about it,
simplify things,
make it easy for them to use and the people come across like that.
(26:15):
Well,
employees are focused on the product we want,
there is a high bar,
um,
you want them to show up like,
you know,
the product is,
and exactly on facebook,
you know,
you want to be inclusive,
You want it to be nourishing and encouraging and people will come do come across like their product,
That's,
that's a good one.
We become the product.
(26:37):
Yeah,
it's inevitable.
Yeah.
And,
and then,
you know,
I mean,
probably a lot of people are wondering,
wow,
okay,
so just Apple alone for somebody to not just get into Apple,
but to be and play at the executive level that you did and then to do that at facebook or meta now,
um,
and to have experiences with,
(26:58):
you know,
Yeah,
people like Mark and to be building what you're building to connect the world,
you know,
that's it's this kind of the dream,
right?
We talk about,
hey,
what's,
what's the dream?
And you have your dream list,
I've had my dream list.
It was Disney and Apple,
right?
And so I think people are probably wondering like,
well,
you know,
what does it take?
How do you know,
(27:18):
what was your focus to begin with?
Like if you,
you know,
roll back the curtain to,
you know,
j deep and kind of starting,
you know,
your,
you know,
your initial kind of career,
was there was there what,
what were the elements or roots of your success really beginning to where you,
where you are now.
Yeah,
so I think that is,
you know,
I've reflected on this,
(27:39):
you know,
so many times,
you know,
you go to all these uh,
you know,
company sessions,
leadership sessions,
there's always like a life map.
You know,
people ask you what your life map,
you know,
and I've done many of these things over,
over my uh,
over my career and my life,
including when I did my M.
B.
A.
You know,
we went to a similar exercise.
It's like taking stock of,
you know,
how the hell did you get where you are?
(28:01):
What were the key?
And I got to tell you the,
the answer I realize it's probably not as interesting as as as I would have liked.
Um,
so for example,
I've had,
like I said,
people with extreme,
you know,
uh,
let's call it challenges as they were as they were growing up not personal front and I've been fortunate not to have,
you know,
many,
(28:21):
many of those um,
they have had to overcome significant,
you know,
let's say hurdles and I've been fortunate not to have to,
you know,
deal with that.
So when I look back at my,
my life,
it just feels somewhat plain and vanilla,
you know,
to be very honest with you,
but I'm like okay,
I'll take it and I don't want too many challenges.
But the one thing I'll say a few things you know that that you mentioned,
(28:42):
I did not start off,
I never started off with with a specific kind of end goal in mind and that goes back to what I told you at the very beginning about the inquisitive behavior,
right?
If you keep your mind open about the possibilities of what could happen,
then you are freeing it up to do things in an unconstrained manner.
(29:02):
That's just my belief you know,
and that may be very different from principal leaders who have one thing I am going to send a man to mars maybe you need to be Elon musk.
That's a different style of leadership.
That's great and you can get a lot of things done with that.
I'm just saying from what worked for me was keeping it open in other words,
another metaphor I always use is like you know,
life is like a like a like a fast running river,
(29:25):
you know,
I mean if you run if you're done in the river rafting,
you know what I'm talking about,
there are class two rapids,
there are class four rapids and the boats that make it to the end are not deep heavy keel boats that are strong and heavy,
they're going run into the first rock that comes across,
you have to be like a raft,
light and flexible and you'll be able to ride the waves and go around corners,
(29:45):
flip over a couple of times,
come back up again.
That's the only way you make it to the other end of life.
So I have tried to live my life,
you know,
and my career like that in other words,
keep your mind open.
Do the your principles are what is guiding you,
you know,
your skills and your principles are like the oars in the rapid,
that's all you've got,
you know that you've got nothing else that you can control.
(30:06):
You know,
you have only those things in your mind and and life is gonna throw you different things along the way,
right?
The water's gonna do this one way or the other.
So you've got to be able to use those principles,
you know,
to the best of your abilities and navigate the course.
You keep your principles,
but keep keep it open,
you know,
you know,
keep it inquisitive,
you get thrown a challenge,
you work on it,
you know,
So I I did that my whole life,
(30:27):
you know,
whatever it was,
I'll give an example back at qualcomm,
you know,
this was back in the 2000,
you know,
it's known as a cd in my company.
If you recollect right,
you guys know qualcomm is known as the company that you know,
it's all about C.
D.
M.
A.
There was a new technology and in only 2000 we realized that hey if you wanted to get to this new standard called three G,
it was all about umTS.
(30:49):
Qualcomm realized you could not sell chip sets or modems as they're called without having GSM,
you know,
the hated technology.
No,
no,
but Holcomb likes GSM.
It was called the Holy Wars of the late 19 nineties if you recollect,
but we had to have GSM technology in the chip and that I remember I was saying sometimes you have two things in have to have things that you know that don't work because otherwise you can't sell a product.
(31:13):
GSM was like that,
you could not make a cell phone back in the 32,000 if it could not operate on this much popular to G system.
So I was one of the few people in the company tasked with working on two G on this GSM and people used to make fun of me saying you're supposed to be in the city made company,
you are the vanguard.
Why the heck are you working on this old technology?
(31:34):
But I said no,
it's a challenge,
You know this is what we need to do,
we need to go and take care of that.
So so I focused you know on that and and we were of course very successful with three G.
And then I I eventually left before we could get to four G.
But the transition to three G.
From two G was a big big deal for qualcomm because it established them in this umTS manner in this world as a worldwide player as opposed to just the north american player.
(31:59):
So I took up the chant.
The bottom line was I was open to take on that task.
I was not,
you know,
um um fixated on a specific thing or specific activity.
I did,
I did the best same thing with Apple right?
You know an Apple when I started back in 2009,
you know,
I was asked to lead the small group called R.
F.
D.
Since you know,
nobody even knew what RFd sense meant.
(32:20):
And in a nutshell it is basically when you have a bunch of different radios operating in a small confined metal camera,
like the Apple watch for example,
they don't like to,
you know,
be with each other,
you know,
it's like a porcupine,
you're trying to stop a porcupine inside a small box,
you know,
it's going to hurt,
you know,
so that's exactly the deal with radios,
you know,
they don't like to operate with each other and so when they do they interfere with each other.
(32:42):
So we had a whole team focused on figuring out how how to make it easy for them to work with each other and not interfere with each other.
And I got so many questions as to what is it that you do,
Why are we doing this?
You know,
I have to explain this over and over and over again.
It was a very hard job,
but I said this is something that is important,
I must do it.
And so we built a team,
we took care of the stuff.
(33:03):
Um So every single time,
you know,
I've got an opportunity to do something that was not done before I took it.
You know,
I said I'm gonna it's a learning experience for me,
so I'm gonna go take I'm going to do it not because you know,
I have a specific goal in mind,
but it is something I don't know and and and it is going to make my brain a little bit more pliable and flexible and so that I think is the central theme of my at least my life.
(33:28):
You know,
when I look back now 25 years I'll be,
you know,
in the industry um since my graduate school,
it's the one common thing that I think has helped me and and made me uh you know,
generally happy with whatever work I've been doing.
And as a side effect,
genuine,
you know,
somewhat somewhat successful,
(33:50):
let's just say,
you know,
I'm doing okay.
Yeah.
The the interesting thing that you've sparked in my mind J.
D.
Because you've been talking because we've been approaching a lot of these conversations as um you know misfits in more of a cultural sense or more of a team dynamic sense but the way you're describing being a misfit in terms of that learning mindset is sparking a lot of ideas for for me.
(34:22):
And it also I think runs counter to what we often think about in terms of career progression.
Because what you're rewarded for as an individual contributor is usually expertise or some sort of unique contribution that only you can make.
And that's a mindset that helps you through you know an initial phase of your career.
(34:44):
But as soon as you start leading other people it sounds like that mindset may no longer serve you.
It may be more helpful for you to think about leadership and not not in terms of you know how can I be the most expert person in the world or in the room at the very least.
Um but how can I you know unlock the engagement of and the creativity of the people around me totally totally agree drop and and like I said don't get me wrong there are a lot of experts we need.
(35:15):
You know there are people who are designed to be you know continue to push that that that technical envelope.
For example in my scenarios you know in some,
you know,
you need of course experts,
but a leader if you want people to follow you.
You cannot I mean almost by definition you cannot be,
you know,
the the only expert in one area because then you'll have other people saying why should I follow?
(35:35):
You know,
you hear what you got to say,
you know,
I'm an expert in my own area,
I want to take advice from you.
So leadership almost by definition in my mind,
I mean becomes more and more diffused um and you become dumber in in in more and more in in your areas and that's been my experience and I'm sure there are smart leaders out there and I do consider myself visibly in a well bred um but I guarantee you I'm not I'm not half as good as people in some of the people in my team.
(36:05):
Um but that that is that is that comes from I mean I this is the again goes back to an inquisitive mind,
I have,
I have gravitated more towards learning more things,
maybe to a less deeper extent than being the expert in one area really very deep,
that is what excites me that is what keeps my brain active.
(36:26):
I like new things and and this is this is kind of you know,
it has I think helped me from a leadership perspective because because I know a lot of things about a lot of things just be very,
very clear.
You can,
I can argue with you about World War Two history,
we can talk about science,
we can talk about geography,
I mean we can speak about a lot of different things and I and I can,
(36:48):
I will be generally very accurate with whatever I'm trying to uh to say,
because I that's what I want,
I do not want to be known as the one expert in like one area,
it would it would just simply not work from my brain,
you know?
And so that's why I said at the very beginning misfit is a state of mind.
I'm continuously a misfit because I'm constantly trying to learn something new that I'm not a not a member of,
(37:12):
you know,
I'm not a part of and I'm totally okay with that the last couple of years honestly have been eye opening for for us as,
as human beings.
Um but especially in the business world for leaders and how are you gonna run companies of the future?
It is,
it is a paradigm shift,
right?
As you can imagine as people have come to expect more from their company or their their organization,
(37:35):
about support about,
you know,
um about,
you know,
understanding empathy.
Um but at the same time,
it has also become clear that the they still,
you know,
they still need some structure,
right,
You know,
you cannot just operate,
you know,
randomly in like,
you know,
in your homes and just meet once on,
on zoom call and expect things to work smoothly,
so there's also a structure required,
(37:56):
so this these two worlds of of uh of having,
you know different viewpoints,
different mechanisms,
people's times,
times are different,
there's flexibility expected,
but also having to move in one direction.
Some reaction is a big challenge for leadership,
you know,
leadership has to update and modify itself to be able to provide that fine balance of,
(38:20):
okay,
I need to give chris the flexibility that he needs to take care of his kids because they're back in from school,
he has to help them out with their resume settings at the same time.
We all need crystal engage with the three other people that he needs to work with to keep moving forward.
So how do you balance this stuff is the,
is the part that is going to be very crucial for the future right?
And I think this is for here to stay,
(38:42):
I don't think we are going back to a world where people are going to expect to come in 9 to 5,
it's not gonna happen maybe in some industries,
but simply not going to happen.
And so that is where this inquisitive mindset is a must,
because we don't know the answer,
you know,
nobody knows the exact answer right now,
so if you start off with something that is like,
you know a second stone,
(39:04):
you're probably not going to like the result.
So you gotta make one step forward,
then you gotta tack into the wind,
you know,
you're going to find something else that you can change again.
And so you have to start off by saying to people guys,
I do,
you know,
folks,
I do not know how this is gonna work out here is what we will do for the next few months and we will see,
you know,
whether it works or not,
(39:24):
and please tell me if this works or not,
and if it doesn't,
we'll make a change again.
Um and that's leadership because you're stating very clearly what your intent is,
you are providing guidance and direction for the short term,
but also being open to the feedback and being open to modifying things as required.
So you kind of like,
you know,
this is,
it's become crystal clear to us now,
(39:45):
you know,
it's been very interesting last couple of years,
you know,
and I don't know um how we,
we,
we go back,
I don't think so,
you're tapping into something too.
That is,
it's,
it's that shift from and we think we call it logos versus pathos,
which,
you know,
in the past,
that science of management has been very stacked,
right?
It's like,
hey,
I've got my agenda,
(40:06):
maybe one directional,
right?
It's like,
hey,
just sign up and do,
right?
And now to your point,
it's like this shift towards heart and mind and when having that openness or flexibility creates the possibility so people can,
can feel they belong,
right?
They feel empathy because we do not have all the answers and leaders to your point.
(40:26):
It's like you don't have the answers about everybody's life experience,
right?
And to be positioned anchoring ourselves as having all the answers.
Well,
it's just offensive to people,
right?
Because they'll say,
well you don't even know me,
right?
Like,
and you don't know my background,
my experience.
And I've always appreciated that about you as a leader and I think you embody the future that way is,
(40:46):
you know,
that connection between heart and mind that people need,
right?
And and the empathy and compassion that goes along with and actually enables the future of building because that's how also we're going to be building,
right?
These ecosystems of products and services and platforms of the future.
It's really the only way,
I mean the other thing is,
(41:08):
you know,
people don't want to be in a meeting where they say to themselves,
hey,
this leader can be replaced with a,
I like what they're saying is basically so robotic,
right?
It's just spitting right out of google like there's no point to this versus hey,
this person they're down to earth,
like they're connecting with me.
Yes,
they have a point of view.
Um,
but they're inviting me into something.
(41:29):
Um and we're connecting,
right?
I mean the other,
the other point,
you're kind of,
you're making too about this hybrid scenario is people have invited their work into their home now and there's no way around that.
And that's not like that's not going to change.
And so they have expectations about their home where they would say,
hey,
I let certain things in my home and other things not,
I don't want that like whatever it is or the or the,
(41:52):
you know,
say that um you know,
I call it,
you know,
miss mistreatment,
but it's hey,
it's just what I want is heartfelt.
I want connection.
I want to feel like I'm collaborating and working with people together.
I like the term you said,
I will use it.
I like what you said about people,
we have invited our work into our home because it was necessary,
(42:13):
right?
The fact that I want to zoom call and the kids running in the bag,
dogs and you know,
spilled coffee.
You have a window,
all of us have got a window into our colleagues lives that we have never had before,
right?
It is unbelievable.
You know,
this level of access,
you could you could call yourself all of us privileged to actually see what is going on in their lives in a manner that really was is unprecedented.
(42:37):
And so,
you know,
it is it is it is interesting that,
you know,
that that we want to make use of that.
My point is we want to be able to capitalize on that and like connect at the level that is simply not not what it was not possible before and,
and,
and,
and leverage that,
you know,
to get the best out of people.
Yeah.
And it was perceived differently before,
right?
Like,
like you remember that the video of the news guy where he's like,
(42:59):
his son's coming through his toddlers coming through the door,
he's pushing him back,
right?
It's all about like,
image,
like just right?
And like,
that is so not the case now,
right?
Like now if somebody shows up and we have this happen and actually at work,
it actually is the opposite.
Yeah,
It's the opposite reaction.
You're like,
wow.
Like,
oh,
that's cool.
You know,
like,
hey,
there's the newest member of the team,
(43:20):
right?
Like it's like a wave,
Yes,
Say hi to Tommy and you know,
yeah,
it actually said,
you know,
I've learned,
I've seen people's cats,
you know,
they're they're,
you know,
they're best friends and their wives,
you know,
their Children.
I mean,
they're they're hobbies in the background.
You know,
it is unbelief,
you know what,
like I said,
the insides you get into people's lives and their privileged to get that.
(43:42):
Um,
you know,
remember this whole background originally when we first started this,
there was this whole,
you know,
joke about what funny backgrounds you could put behind nowadays,
nobody cares anymore,
you know,
now just to see what's behind me and,
you know,
fine,
well in this,
in this,
it's getting to a place now because of this and it's interesting,
it's like an inadvertent reality that's it's created is as far as principles like it,
(44:09):
you know,
we talk,
we talk about,
you know,
working life and it used to be in this discussion about balance,
right,
and,
and I think that's also gone away to a large extent because it's all blended now,
right?
It's this blended life of working life.
And the other thing is,
is that,
well,
this offers an opportunity where it's really felt,
which is,
it is not only blended,
(44:29):
but,
you know,
the,
I think the future in addition to being co creative and the things we've talked about being a misfit in a sense of staying in learning mode.
It's also the reality of living principles and living in such a way where you're one right,
You're you're you're one in in how you show up for work and how you show up for life.
(44:51):
And that was said of,
you know,
Covey,
Stephen Covey taught that and and his,
his funeral,
his son said that about him.
He said he,
you know,
he was one right and if you met him in person,
you knew,
you knew,
you knew my father like as he was.
Yeah.
And I think that is,
there's probably no,
there's not that I know of a more powerful statement about somebody.
(45:12):
Uh and I would certainly,
I've seen that in you as a leader and as a person,
as a human being and I appreciate that deeply because it inspires me and I think a lot of people I know your team to be not just better leaders and better at what they do at their work,
(45:33):
but better human beings,
right?
And,
and and to strive to be one right where you know how you show up and granted,
you know,
we play different roles,
right?
You know,
father,
you know,
you know,
husband,
you know,
um work associate leader,
but the reality is,
is those principles when they're when they're the same,
(45:54):
when it's learning mode in all those categories,
right?
When it's co creation in all those categories,
how powerful is that?
And I just,
I can't say enough about how much you've shown me that over the years,
but also what you shared as far as principles and how those can benefit and you know,
people in their lives and thank you for for for that thank thank you chris that is so heartwarming,
(46:21):
I want to just again,
thank you once again,
you know,
for all the,
for the friendship and for for for all the kind words,
you know,
like I said,
I'm sure not all of them are very deserved,
but I truly appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
This episode of lead with the question was produced by me rob calen with support from my co hosts and brave core founders,
(46:48):
chris,
Deaver and Ian clawson.
The music you heard was composed by Ian as part of another project he's involved in called Moon Machine Dave Arcade created our podcast Cover Art special Thanks to JD Promenade for the conversation today and for providing a blueprint to building a life and career based on a willingness to be a principled misfit.
(47:11):
Also,
we really appreciate you for taking the time to co create these conversations with us,
especially when there are so many other things you could be doing.
If you found any value at all in these episodes,
could you do a favor?
Leave us a rating,
even a review wherever you're listening right now.
It takes about two minutes and helps others discover the show as well.
(47:33):
If you want to learn more about the work we're doing at Brave Core,
you can check out our website at Brave Core dot c.
O.
The lead with a Question podcast is a production of Brave Core LLC.
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