September 10, 2022 • 50 mins
Lizzi Perkins, Senior Brand Strategist
When you read a really moving story or watch a powerful film, you can often experience a taste of what the characters are feeling. You grieve with them as they suffer loss. You cheer them on to victory and share in their celebrations. Our capacity to see ourselves vicariously in others’ lives is one of the most human things about us. So today, let’s spend a few minutes with a woman whose upbringing in Asia, identity as a member of the LGBTQ+ community, and a person of faith, combined with her compassionate work in suicide prevention, enable her to seek to understand, before seeing to be understood. She’ll take us on an eye-opening journey, guided by the question:
What possibilities can empathy unlock?
A conversation with Lizzi Perkins, on this episode of Lead With a Question.
Guest Bio:
Lizzi’s experiences growing up in Southeast Asia for 17 years, mentoring troubled teens, and working as a brand strategist for big brands like American Airlines to nonprofits like Stop the Opidemic have given her an in-depth understanding into connecting with young, diverse audiences. With a focus in research and branding, Lizzi turns data into compelling stories and resonant experiences.
Get to know Lizzi on her LinkedIn profile.---------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
this is lead with a question we have this campaign that's called Just Ask and the whole thing is to teach people how to check in with their friends about their mental health.
Because if if I do have thoughts of suicide and someone says,
(00:23):
hey,
I've been thinking about you,
you don't have to respond.
I just wanted you to know that I really care about you and know that I want you here.
That can change the trajectory of my life.
Hi,
I'm rob Callan.
(00:44):
We live in a time when people are seeing that the old way of doing business is broken and that leading into the future requires something new,
a deeper focus on humanity,
the courage to let go of power and ego,
a desire to nurture the conditions for co creation and the bravery,
(01:04):
not to have all the answers on this show.
I along with my friends,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson connect with guests who embody these principles and whether household names or not,
they've shattered the status quo.
Often as misfits to shape the future with others and achieve miraculous things in work and life.
(01:27):
When you read a really moving story or watch a powerful film,
you can often experience a taste of what the characters are feeling,
you grieve with them as they suffer loss,
you cheer them on to victory and share in their celebrations our capacity to see ourselves vicariously and others lives is one of the most human things about us.
(01:50):
So today let's spend a few minutes with a woman whose upbringing in ASia identity as a member of the L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
Plus community and a person of faith combined with her compassionate work in suicide prevention enable her to seek to understand before seeking to be understood.
She'll take us on an eye opening journey,
(02:12):
guided by the question what possibilities can empathy unlock a conversation with lizzie Perkins on this episode of lead with a question.
(02:34):
I grew up mostly overseas in Beijing Taiwan and Hong kong and when I was 18 years old I moved to Utah for university and shocker.
There was a very big culture difference and so it took me a while to kind of find my footing and find where I belonged and then once I did and I started moving forward in my my school path,
(03:09):
I decided to,
I wanted to work with people,
I wanted to listen to them,
work with them.
And so I got into advertising research and strategy from school,
I ended up doing an internship in Miami and moving to Boulder to work at a an ad agency working with american Airlines,
(03:30):
Hershey's chocolate dominos Pizza,
you know everything that's good for self care and the soul.
After a few years doing that,
I was missing something with a little bit more purpose.
There's only so many focus groups you can do on why kids and adults love chocolate,
(03:54):
you know,
so although there's nothing wrong with chocolate.
Oh no,
I am a very big fan of you know,
chocolates of all kinds except for whoppers.
Those are not a fan.
And then from there I moved to a social cause based advertising agency in Salt Lake City where I got to do work with suicide prevention,
(04:21):
opioid abuse prevention,
working with mental health for parents and students and um it's it's been very life changing and kind of perspective shifting learning so much about mental health and underlying causes of not success and failure,
(04:46):
but predictors of happiness and health long term.
And one of the biggest things that I've noticed is no matter what the issue is,
connection and working with other people is one of the biggest predictors of future happiness,
(05:06):
health and success,
interesting.
Yeah,
well we'd love to dig in a little bit more,
you know,
in this conversation down the road.
Um as far as some of those campaigns,
some of those causes you've been a part of.
If you could,
why don't you expand upon this notion of,
you know,
a misfit experience?
(05:26):
We we've talked about that in the past collectively.
Um we've all identified as misfits.
Um,
and to a large degree we're seeing this more as as um a uniting kind of subject matter where people can,
you know,
look back at their misfit stories and you know,
recognize their differences,
(05:48):
recognize their gifts.
Um,
but what was your misfit journey like?
You kind of alluded a little bit about that with kind of the overseas kind of growing up overseas maybe start there and um give us a little bit more details about that experience and and kind of what you've learned about yourself up to this point,
I would say my life has been full of juxtapositions and seeming contradictions,
(06:13):
right?
An american girl growing up in china,
a nerdy athlete,
a bisexual mormon.
It kind of took me a long time to define my identity with all those seeming discrepancies.
But a large part of my journey to my current self perception has really been due to the people around me and the media that I've consumed,
(06:39):
which is one reason why I got into advertising in the first place.
But growing up in china,
it was interesting because I didn't realize initially when I was little that I was other um kids were kids,
I spoke english,
I spoke chinese um and it felt very normal and natural to play with other kids,
(07:05):
but it was kind of when I hit that point in middle school where you know puberty,
I shot up and at five ft seven in sixth grade,
when everyone else is much shorter,
that was like now I'm physically standing out more than I had in the past.
(07:26):
Um And then in addition to that,
a lot of my friends um their parents kind of guided their interests and their time after school towards tutoring music lessons,
things like that,
where my parents kind of let me just run free and I ended up playing a lot of sports,
(07:49):
I played rugby,
I played soccer,
I played basketball,
you played rugby and survived.
Yeah,
I mean did end up in the hospital quite a few times,
but uh,
yeah,
there was kind of this feeling of,
I'm,
I'm different than everyone else.
So around junior high is when you,
(08:11):
like puberty hit,
you started to maybe physically feel different,
look different by contrast.
You know,
I want to kind of go dig in a little bit deeper on a theme that just kind of like popped up when you were talking and it's,
it's something that I think most of us can recognize,
but I think it's worth a little bit further discussion,
(08:34):
you know,
childhood,
you know,
when we are kids and Children at play,
like the things that we let get in the way or are barriers for us to connect or maybe things that cause self doubt or things tied to our self worth,
um,
our view of ourselves,
(08:55):
you know,
insecurities perhaps,
you know,
let's talk about that a little bit what you,
what it is about Children at play that just,
you know,
those things don't matter.
Um,
I feel like I recall like my Children a little bit older now,
but taking them to the park for example,
it didn't take too long,
(09:15):
you know,
as like a five year old or six year old for them to just assimilate with what's going on on the playground and they just jump in the mix and everyone kind of figures out the role kind of quickly like,
oh that person is the leader,
I'm gonna be the follower,
here's the game.
I don't know,
let's let's talk about that a little bit.
What are your thoughts about,
(09:36):
you know,
Children at play?
And I think it's there could be a nice book written about that.
Perhaps there are Yeah,
I think when you're a child at play,
all you're thinking about is is this fun,
right?
You don't necessarily think about those things as adults become barriers to acceptance to belonging to fun.
(10:04):
But one thing that I think is pretty amazing.
There's this concept called which is a study in any kind of animal where do you retain childhood features particularly the ability to play and throughout the animal kingdom,
you kind of see bears will roll around on the ground or will play and humans have the largest ability to retain that,
(10:34):
but we also have kind of the biggest inhibition around doing so because right,
as an adult now,
it's not just is this fun,
it's is this fun?
Do I look weird?
Is this appropriate for me to be doing in this setting with these people?
(10:59):
And there are all these thoughts that just kind of run rampant of is this okay,
when in actuality I have never felt annoyed at anyone laughing or you know playing right?
Yeah,
that's interesting.
Yeah,
(11:19):
it's like there's these kind of layers of context that may or may not be real,
right,
that we perceive about how we're acting and always think about like at a dance,
everybody's so worried about how people are like how they're thinking like they're watching me dance and they're just thinking about that and yet everybody's doing that so they're all focused on the right way.
(11:44):
Alright,
so life is a dance chris we're all feeling this way all the time.
Right?
Yeah.
And then nobody stopped,
like,
I mean unless somebody is just way out there,
but like even so they're just gonna appreciate like,
wow,
they're just going like they're just full on dancing.
So,
you know like what and Yeah,
and why,
you know what happens because it's kind of within ourselves then right?
(12:05):
To say like,
okay,
well,
you know,
and then we kind of lose that spirit of playfulness which you know,
we know and creativity is powerful,
right?
Like that's where a lot of the magic happens.
And as adults,
I mean,
I feel like we're trying to find a way to tap into that childlike play.
The curiosity,
(12:25):
the how can we connect quicker,
you know,
and remove these barriers like in professional relationships in our personal relationships,
you know,
I feel like we've been programmed as adults and socially constructed too to have all these different warped views of how we can be connected or how we should view ourselves or how we do view ourselves.
(12:51):
So what,
what are some things that we can do as adults that can cut through so we can get to that childlike play quicker.
There was something I was talking about yesterday with my sister,
we were talking about how so often at work or in social settings,
(13:12):
the easiest thing to do connect over really quickly are typically negative passions.
For example,
it's really easy for me to say,
I hate work,
I had to work so many long hours this week and no matter what your profession is,
you can be like oh yeah,
(13:32):
I also had that experience but it's far less often and more powerful when you can connect over positive passions.
We had a friend,
the reason my sister and I were talking about this is we had a friend who came to we we had this party and she loves sharpies and she brought her collection of sharpies so she could kind of do a little show and tell why she loves them,
(14:02):
why they're amazing.
Even astronauts can use them in space because the ink flows differently than like not through gravity.
Anyway,
I learned all this stuff and right,
she could have had,
you know in behavioral psychology it's called that spotlight effect of oh no people are watching me is this weird and instead of you know kind of putting that scrutiny on ourselves,
(14:28):
I think one way to really cut through and make long lasting connections instead of focusing on some of those negative passions that are quick,
easy connections.
It's really,
what are some of my positive passions do I juggle?
Do I love Christiano Ronaldo?
Like what is it that I'm really passionate about?
(14:49):
And even if you aren't passionate about the same things,
it kind of gives you an insight into who I am as a person and establishes those connections that lead to a more positive relationship moving forward.
Yeah,
it's like,
it's like the and those things,
even if there's,
you know,
I mean now granted,
like as you're talking about sharpies and like,
(15:10):
yeah,
actually they are amazing really,
like they just flow smoothly and all that,
but like actually the other thing is even if it's not a direct connection,
there's something about somebody showing passion for something they love that inspires you to feel the same,
right?
Like,
and then think about those things that are like,
wow,
what am I passionate about?
You know,
to your 0.1 of the things that that stood out to me when you're talking is when I was in college,
(15:36):
I learned I learned the true difference between sympathy and empathy,
right,
sympathy is when you project your experience by connecting dots of maybe somebody else's experience.
So I think that's where,
you know,
the quicker kind of negative um connecting points people are making is is actually through sympathy.
(15:57):
It's it's usually like,
someone can identify like,
oh I've had a similar experience and they project their experience onto others and and it's it's deep and entrenched in feelings for sure but they're typically negative emotions.
Whereas empathy is a lot harder because going along the lines of the positive aspects that that are healthier to connect on.
(16:19):
And probably more rare people aren't brave enough to to share their passion so freely.
Right?
And so empathy is the opposite in the sense that it's not about you projecting a sim similar situation or experience and connecting with others based on feelings.
It's more of can you truly see their experience for what their experience was or is?
(16:47):
And it's really hard to do because first you gotta get out of your own head right?
And you can't be self can't be anchored from a self centered kind of positioning which I think sympathy tends to do more than empathy.
And so empathy is.
You know I I think it's if you're brave enough to share or show or shine with your passions right?
(17:12):
You know I think that's more of a positive connection where people can connect with empathy.
You know I love that idea because it really is.
I mean it's all about perception.
Someone else might not view it as brave for me to say oh I'm really passionate about museums but for me personally that might be hard to say.
(17:36):
And in a workplace environment like at my current workplace there have been a few times when I've been able to say,
hey,
I'm really passionate about X,
y Z for example,
mental health,
like being L G B T Q plus and being in a religious environment growing up,
(17:58):
that was also also a place where I kind of felt like a misfit and had some mental health challenges with anxiety of,
am I good enough,
Will I be enough?
Are people going to judge me?
And in my current workplace environment,
I'm able to,
you know,
(18:18):
voice that passion around mental health and healthy relationships,
connections and how that impacts people's lives for the positive.
And my managers,
my coworkers saw that passion and guess what,
that's what I work on because I was able to,
(18:39):
you know,
voice that passion,
even though it was a little bit scary to say,
hey,
I dealt a lot with anxiety.
Hey,
I have a therapist,
hey,
I am in this world of mental health.
Um I was able to end up working on things that I'm really passionate about as opposed to,
you know,
being assigned to a project that maybe doesn't resonate with me.
(19:02):
And it was scary,
but in the end it was so worth it.
Well,
let's,
let's dig into that a little bit,
you know,
um,
share,
share some of your experiences with these type of campaigns that obviously you are very passionate about.
Yeah,
I think one thing that,
you know,
all over the world we kind of struggle with is especially in America,
(19:26):
we're always in this realm of treatment.
There no one has funding for suicide prevention until there's kind of a contagious rise in suicide.
No one has money to work at drug treatment centers until there's a huge spike in overdoses.
And so,
(19:46):
um,
one thing that we've really tried to do in some of our campaigns here,
uh,
for example,
for our suicide prevention campaign,
instead of focusing on the,
hey,
you're in a crisis right now,
call this number or do this thing.
We've tried to go more upstream earlier on in the prevention cycle to say,
(20:08):
what can we do to prevent there being a crisis And Utah we have this campaign that's called just ask and the whole thing is to teach people how to check in with their friends about their mental health because if,
if I do have thoughts of suicide and someone says,
hey,
I've been thinking about you,
(20:28):
you don't have to respond.
I just wanted you to know that I really care about you.
And if you are thinking about suicide,
like know that I want you here that that can change the trajectory of my life and so trying to plant those seeds of how do you connect to prevent any any kind of crisis,
(20:49):
but just moving earlier on.
So instead of being stuck in this treatment cycle,
you know,
if you can connect about one thing earlier on and someone's struggle,
maybe they never get to that point where they abuse drugs or they plan a suicide.
Yeah,
I love that.
It's,
(21:09):
it's singular and focused,
right?
As like just ask.
But it's,
it's really broad because you could just ask like,
hey,
how are you doing today?
Right.
Right,
Right.
I mean,
I have a friend who,
uh,
he shares the story years ago,
he was in the thick of some severe depression,
like really bad.
And yeah,
he was,
(21:29):
he was contemplating right?
Like taking his own life and it was,
it was so bad.
He didn't see a way out.
He didn't have a lot of people,
you know,
in his life at the time.
And I think there was,
it was a strained relationship with his family,
like his father and just,
no,
no place to go.
Really right.
He's out on his own.
Um,
and yeah,
(21:51):
it was like a phone call,
just random.
Uh,
you know,
somebody happened to be from church guys just like,
hey,
I'm thinking about you,
you know,
how are you doing?
And he just like,
let it all out,
Right.
He's just like,
I'm in a terrible place right now.
And he's like,
wow,
like,
um what can we do to help?
And just kind of helped encourage him to feel like,
(22:13):
hey,
I've got somebody here that cares about me enough to,
first of all call.
Uh,
and then just encouraged me and he looks back and this is like 20 years later,
that was a definitive point in his life where he decided to not take his life because of that one call and then he's also decided I'm going to be that person who's calling people who's reaching out.
(22:34):
So,
you know,
he's looking for those moments to do that for others,
you know,
on on the surface level I could see,
you know,
maybe parents struggling to help their kids or teenagers with depression or suicide thoughts and I think sometimes it's a little skewed,
you know,
they think,
oh,
I need to motivate them,
(22:55):
you know,
don't don't have those thoughts or like,
you know,
they think they're going to solve it through some type of motivation or some type of encouragement,
but in reality,
you know,
kind of what you just shared lizzie and then this is the story you just shared chris it seems like one of the main antidotes to suicide prevention or depression is connectedness.
(23:18):
And so,
you know,
the just ask campaign sounds like it's a great first step,
like you said,
like planting a seed for that,
but then to take that a step further,
I wonder what people could do to to create better patterns of connecting with other people,
you know,
to to be more top of mind,
like,
you know,
(23:38):
when you have those thoughts,
it's not by accident,
you know,
some people may see that as a spiritual guidance,
right?
Where,
you know,
someone,
maybe a family member comes to top of mind for you and how often do we not act on those things,
you know,
like if we don't make a call,
you know,
sometimes I feel inspired to write a note to somebody and and sometimes I don't do it and you know,
(24:03):
in talking about it in this context,
you know,
I have regrets for not doing it.
So,
you know,
I wonder how you could take a campaign,
like just ask to,
to to connect,
you know,
find those connecting patterns for people to kind of like encourage and inspire people to connect,
right?
I think one thing that it goes back to is something you brought up earlier about empathy.
(24:27):
I've had a lot of people ask me,
oh,
what can,
you know,
I do from a religious background to show that I love and care for friends with mental health issues or friends who are L G b T Q plus or friends who are people of color who I can't,
who I,
you know,
feel like I can't connect with.
And one thing that I always say to them is feel don't fix,
(24:52):
they're not asking you to fix their problems.
Same thing with teens and their parents,
right?
If a parent is worried about their team,
their teen doesn't necessarily want their parents to fix the problem for them.
There's a little bit of confidence that is built when you kind of solve your own problems,
but what people really need is just for you to feel with them to feel for them that's the key feel with versus feel for.
(25:20):
Yeah,
Bernie Brown talks about how people need to be seen heard and valued and I feel like so often in especially workplace settings it's so easy to feel o E K.
I'm being seen.
My boss sees the work,
I do,
my coworkers see the work I do but sometimes it's a little bit harder to feel heard and valued because do people really you know here what you're communicating whether it's said or unsaid and do you feel valued compensations part of that?
(25:56):
But so is purpose.
So is a lot of the other factors that don't always come across my the times in my career when I felt most valued it's been because my coworkers and people I work with,
they appreciate the work that I'm doing.
They give me time to finish projects instead of just you know,
(26:21):
rushing things to be done.
And so I think that's one thing that in this world of how do we co create work together and kind of make magic happen?
It only happens when people are feeling valued and heard,
right?
I think one of the biggest challenges in the workplace is everyone is viewing it from their individual experience where they're waiting for empathy from others,
(26:49):
right?
And I think we gotta somehow flipped the script where from an individual pathway we seek to empathize and I think the more we embody it,
the more people other people can experience it right?
The more pervasive it's gonna be in the workplace right?
And then another thought to is empathy is is usually viewed in terms of like challenges or um tough situations people are going through.
(27:20):
But what if that was charged or channeled in a more positive way?
What if I don't know for lack of a better phrase?
What if there was more of a creative empathy that existed where people could connect over you know passion projects over things that are more constructive versus kinda like wallowing in sorrows and like tough times and our challenges.
(27:47):
You know like I think that's a higher order of empathy where it's more creative based where and that's where co creation comes into play.
So we'd love to kind of talk to you about co creative experiences you've had in in the workplace or in in your type of work with others if you want to expand upon that.
Yeah.
I think co creation is so important in a workplace.
(28:11):
If you think about nearly any type of project,
one person doing it alone is never gonna be as good as two.
Even if the second person like when I was growing up when my family would be doing a project I would always be assigned to B.
D.
(28:31):
J.
And just play music because I wasn't really good at doing necessarily though.
Like here we're going to redo our garden,
like dig a hole.
And so there's always a space for people to be their participate and add value even if it's not what you typically would assume you need.
(28:56):
And so I think there's a little bit of an artful nature to figure out how does everyone fit what's the purpose of the project and then what's the purpose of each individual.
And especially with my work in mental health communications,
(29:17):
we work with experts who know way more about the subject matter than I do.
I learn from them every day.
And while I think I know a fair bit about,
about mental health,
the work is always going to be better when we check it with experts.
And so that's in advertising.
There's,
there's no way to create effective ads if you don't work with your client,
(29:41):
if you don't work with the expert in the subject matter.
Right.
I won,
one of the things that chris and I struggle with is this concept of expertise though,
because sometimes,
um,
you know,
we can get tired of hearing from,
you know,
sources and the government like,
(30:03):
oh,
the experts weighed in on this or,
you know,
in politics,
Um,
even workplace,
right?
It's like,
um,
does there have to be a committee approval for things.
So I don't know,
I think moving forward,
uh,
I'm trying to reframe,
(30:24):
you know,
this notion of expertise as two people that have deep passion for something and they're curious about something,
yes,
I want to hear from those folks because they've taken the time to,
to really play in that area,
right?
Um,
I guess that's just a different a nuance and how it's categorized,
right?
Coming off as the expert or,
(30:45):
or someone who's passionate,
I would add to that because I think in the same light that we're talking about,
hey,
everybody has a place,
everybody belongs,
there is a space for deep expertise.
But the challenge happens when that expertise becomes very top heavy,
right?
And this person assumes that they don't need input or co creation or collaboration or partnership from really anybody to describe what their and granted,
(31:13):
like they may have the depth of perspective that maybe like near prophetic,
like they may be seeing things right,
that are nobody else's seeing,
but like how does it fit into the whole?
Um,
and that's,
that's the,
the nuance or the art of uh,
and essentially,
I think we think about it like,
hey,
it's,
it's the future,
right?
(31:33):
Because we can find a lot of,
a lot of those knowledge worker answers,
we can get from a,
I write like these algorithms,
google can spit it out five,
so I can ask google an expert level question and probably have an answer in a video tutorial from youtube faster than I can get from this person is sitting in this group,
right?
Um,
in a,
in a workplace,
but yeah,
(31:55):
then,
then then it becomes what you're talking about really lizzie we've been talking about is essentially like how do you harness that creative energy where that's going to give us something that we didn't have coming into this meeting before,
Right?
Like it's,
it's almost revelatory and it's something that we didn't expect.
It's the magic.
And when we,
you know,
it is spend time with the imagineers.
(32:17):
That was,
that was the magic of what they would experience.
But they would set the conditions right?
They would set the cultural factors in motion and then the DJ in the,
in the garden.
Yeah.
And then they actually enjoy the fact that like,
oh,
that was surprising.
I didn't know right?
Or like they say,
steve jobs would like pivot 180 degrees and disagree with himself right in the media.
(32:38):
And people would say,
well that's not the ceo is not to put like they didn't understand,
didn't know what to do with that because it was like,
you just set a hard position at the beginning this meeting.
Now,
you're saying you were wrong.
It's like,
yeah,
because what you're presenting and what we're talking about is way better.
Just kind of having that fluidity is it can be hard.
(32:58):
I was gonna say,
ultimately,
you know,
the responsibility lies with the,
the expert,
the person who's pegged themselves as the expert,
right,
is to kind of reframe,
you know,
their role as a co creator or how to open up and gain better co creative characteristics.
(33:18):
Yeah,
I would say the important thing is right,
being an expert without an ego because right,
in suicide prevention,
it's like there is a wrong way to say things,
if you say committed suicide that can be triggering,
that can be unsafe.
And so there are things that there are definite things to avoid and write,
(33:40):
an expert can help with that,
but if you have an expert with an ego,
then everything they say is right,
and there's no room to co create,
because they've set themselves up as the creator.
I had an experience with,
with this at work where there was a client and there was,
(34:01):
you know,
someone on our team who both had expertise in the same area and they were butting heads the whole the whole time we worked together and our team was trying to figure out,
okay,
what can we do to make these these two people work better together,
because both of them are so smart,
(34:22):
both of them have that expertise,
have that passion in their subject area,
but we,
we kind of went back and forth talking about this and someone was like,
it's because they have the same personality,
it's because they have the same passion,
the same expertise,
and I was like,
that's completely right,
(34:42):
that's why there was this constant one upmanship of,
I know more than you,
I'm better than you and it wasn't until one of them was able to kind of sacrifice their ego.
There you go,
lay that to rest,
that we were able to create some really amazing work defending their position to the death almost.
(35:04):
It's like how do you get into that,
like,
um mental kind of creative jiu jitsu or you allow for right,
that fluid nature of things,
you know,
take the ego out of it and uh and you know,
and I guess the question I have for that or for you is like,
not why is it so hard for people?
Because I think there's a human nature thing involved in this,
(35:26):
right?
But how do they accelerate?
Like past this?
How do we break through?
And and and and not in not just creative context,
but now that creative contexts are in many other,
like,
proliferating,
right?
Like everywhere should is essentially there's a need for creativity because for it,
that's the future,
right?
So how do how do people break through,
(35:47):
especially if they've been in the context of doing it in an expert model way,
like,
Ian's described,
you know,
or just ego based,
right?
Like how do they break through that?
That's a very tough question that I think people have been asking for a long time,
how to how to get rid of ego from my perspective,
there are two things that kind of popped to mind and one is curiosity and play.
(36:15):
Like we talked about if you're able to be curious about new things,
even if I'm an expert in a specific topic,
If I'm able to kind of lower my ego and explore topics,
explore things that are more unknown,
then that's gonna give me practice with kind of laying that ego down of,
(36:39):
okay,
I don't know everything.
This is a topic I know nothing about,
but it's fun to learn.
So I think curiosity and play is 11 way to do that.
I think another way to do that is what we've been talking about with empathy is if even if I'm an expert in this subject matter,
if I'm able to be empathetic to your experience with mental health,
(37:02):
even though it's different than mine.
And even though I might think,
oh,
well I know more than they do,
it's all about,
can I understand where you're coming from?
And if I can truly feel with you,
then it'll be easier to lay that ego down because there's it gives me a why.
(37:24):
Mhm.
Yeah,
I like that.
Um It seems to there's like it like that that's the perfect segue to okay,
and then and then we're in doing so,
we're gonna build something,
you know,
uh well,
not only that we haven't done before,
but that could really be amazing,
right?
And I don't know that everybody's experienced that before,
(37:47):
but the beauty,
that's why,
like part of what we're,
what we've been inspired by is creatives,
right?
Because,
you know,
innately,
people,
you know,
like you who are just making an impact on the world every day in a creative way,
right?
Looking for these ways to connect people through empathy,
connect dots,
collaborate,
(38:07):
brain trust,
you know,
and and what that can do right for and then what that can do when applied to products and services and and anything right in life.
But especially in those places where it's just been kind of rinse and repeat,
right?
It's like,
okay,
we're keeping the boat afloat.
You know,
(38:27):
everybody in the,
in the,
in the engine room,
right?
Like keep it going right?
And yet nobody's stopping to say,
hey,
let's what if we build a different boat,
right?
Like,
let's look at the whole blueprint here,
upgrade this entire thing,
right?
Make it different.
I think it's,
I think it's important to like,
you know,
this,
this um,
kind of feeling of,
or desire to challenge the status quo.
(38:50):
It's not that we have to scrap the old boat completely and start with a new boat.
I think that's where people are guarded.
You know,
in organizations,
I think there's,
it's just having a,
it's a reframe,
right?
It's like,
it's not,
we're not totally in destitute.
Like we're not,
you know,
things aren't as bad as we probably amplify them.
(39:13):
There's building blocks,
right?
There's things that do work.
So it's like,
how can we take the best of,
you know,
in these work,
working environments and then create and build,
you know,
to make it even better to improve upon,
right?
So it's like,
I think that's where there's some friction with the old guard and the new energy,
(39:39):
you know,
when it comes to the future of work.
And so I think the new energy has to be empathetic towards things that are good,
you know,
like there maybe it's a question of gratitude as well,
right?
It's like what things already work in our lives,
you know,
that we may take for granted,
(40:00):
right?
Um those are things that I'm wrestling with two,
it's just,
that's a good perspective,
you know,
that's a really good point too,
because if,
and I have approached things like this at times,
right?
I know people have like,
where it's just the assumption is it's two stories,
right?
You got the rebel forces and you've got the Empire and freaking Darth Vader the boss,
(40:21):
right?
Like,
and that's,
you know,
and it's,
it's just all out war right in the universe.
But to your point like how do you appreciate,
okay,
here's the things that are great,
right that have worked.
I mean,
most people are in a company that has had some measure of success,
right?
Or some or wherever they're at,
right?
Or even a family,
it's like,
hey,
there's a measure of success about what they're doing for great leaders that have embodied principles in these environments that are challenging,
(40:48):
right?
It's like we can continue to learn from the leaders that have survived those environments and then how do you take what's great and just amplify,
right?
And add to uh yeah,
it gets to like the Ed Catmull thing too.
About,
was it,
you know,
success is what,
what,
(41:08):
how did he describe?
It was like,
success is an assumption about there's there's a certain percentage of failure,
right?
And every every so called success.
And without stopping to break down what the percentage of failure is.
You run the risk of,
you know,
that that that could emerge and it could be something,
right?
So,
but on the flip side,
there is a certain percentage of success.
(41:29):
So how do you take that?
Amplify it?
Not be complacent.
one time,
seeing that in action Was I worked on Domino's,
I mean,
it was years after the fact,
but back in 2004 ish,
there was what in our company we called the,
(41:52):
you know,
domino's pizza turnaround.
And it's because they had before that point in time really focused on we're going to deliver in under 30 minutes,
which meant oftentimes the pizza wasn't always the best.
Right?
They're just trying to get that pizza made so you can get it in 30 minutes.
So their delivery system was amazing.
But the pizza was not and the ad agency I worked for kind of went back to dominos with focus group footage of people being like domino's pizza tastes terrible.
(42:25):
It tastes like cardboard.
It's not good.
I like I would,
even though I can get pizza fast,
like I'm gonna get it somewhere else.
And that domino's client was able to lay down their ego and be like,
okay.
And yeah,
to your point,
it's not completely new building blocks.
(42:46):
They didn't change everything.
They kept,
you know,
that really great delivery service system and they continue to build on that with guarantees of like for your pizza,
whether you pick it up or it's delivered.
But they had an ad campaign that launched that was they completely redid their pizza recipe and they went to those individual homes from the focus group of people who said it tasted like cardboard,
(43:14):
it wasn't good.
And the whole ad campaign was like that interview footage of them saying it tasted like cardboard with this new delivery of the upgraded pizza.
And everyone being like,
oh,
this is good,
pizza,
I'll pay for this.
And domino's was brave enough to put that out there.
(43:36):
That their old pizza sucked and this is their new pizza.
Talk about dropping your ego,
right?
That you were referring to earlier.
We're leaning into this future.
Yeah,
wow.
And they saw,
you know,
thousands of percent of growth over the next 10 years because of that turning point where they made the decision to redo their pizza and own up to it.
(44:02):
And and there was there was already great elements with dominoes,
but you're right like around that time frame when,
when that shift was made,
like I noticed a difference in the quality of the pizza,
like I'm actually still okay with domino's pizza like in my mind um but it's more of a,
it's more of a value shift right?
Or focus shift,
right?
(44:22):
So the focus was on the speed of delivery and then they had to return to the quality and the taste and experience for the food,
right?
So sometimes organizations,
they lose sight of the things that really connect to the consumers,
right?
They get hung up in optimizing their systems,
their protocols and it just maybe an an alignment issue of the wrong values or focuses at the moment.
(44:49):
And that's I think that's where we were getting out earlier with,
you know,
there are good things,
it's just kind of finding that alignment in getting those values align and in dominoes case,
like the example Lizzy shared,
you know,
our our organizations willing to look at the reality of where things stand now,
(45:11):
are they willing to pivot?
Are they willing to sacrifice and make changes that are hard?
It's messy,
right?
And we see the businesses that are struggling right now,
perhaps it starts with being able to look truly at the reality and it starts with connecting connecting with the people if you're going to get to the truth in an organization,
(45:36):
Talk to your line workers,
talk to the people that are having a miserable experience really pop open the hood of culture and try to understand,
you know what,
what's you know what,
what are people frustrated with?
Yeah,
this is good,
good full circle taking that theme of just ask right as the power of questions to write for people like me right up and down the organization like,
(46:05):
hey,
just ask,
yeah,
what are you feeling like what's going on in your world?
Right.
I had a friend who is a consultant and they're working with this company.
It was like a uh woodworking or like a lumber company.
So they build all this stuff and wood and when they got upset with the bosses and I think they were unionized or I don't remember exactly,
(46:26):
but they had a group of people that worked there that they were kind of band together,
right?
It's typical,
right?
And it's like,
okay,
if they got upset,
there was like a vibe that would kind of move through,
right the group.
And so and if they were mad at the bosses,
the response wasn't,
hey,
go talk to the bosses or try to mediate this or figure it out.
It was go feed the hog.
(46:48):
And they're like,
and my my friend who's consulted,
he's like,
what's who's the what's the hog?
And they took into this back room and there's like this,
it's basically a shredder of of wood and they would just take the wood and just dump it in there and waste it,
like just grind it all right.
And so like their response to being upset with bosses was like,
(47:09):
we're just going to take it out on the,
on,
on the bottom line,
right?
And it was a stupid,
it's like the stupidest thing in the world,
right?
Um,
and it's such a waste right of resources of time of energy.
These people are upset and they're not and it doesn't even really help them.
It's just like they think it's a good thing chip on your shoulder,
(47:29):
you know?
So versus okay.
Yeah.
And granted that was probably on the bosses to or the leaders right to say to just ask like,
hey,
how,
you know,
and,
and not just that,
but also into it and to empathize right on the like,
and I like what you said earlier and this is such a great theme about like on the front end,
right?
Like versus just downstream,
(47:51):
like,
you know,
being thoughtful and intentional and this has a lot to with culture,
right?
Leaders saying,
hey,
what kind of culture do we want to have?
You know,
and if I were in their shoes,
you know,
we see like shows like undercover boss to do this,
but it's kind of become a trope like it's always like they're always surprised,
right?
Like I don't even know these people like this amazing,
(48:12):
like what are they going through?
Like it's always the same thing.
They sit down.
That's what's sad is like they haven't integrated like the whole storyline is you're disconnected from your organization,
you need a major intervention as in Yeah,
just ask,
right?
Like just stop and like empathize and you know,
get get in their shoes,
right?
Yeah,
(48:32):
I think successful businesses ventures relationships all come down to,
can you connect feel with and empathize uh with the people in your life who surround you and that's what's gonna ultimately determine health,
happiness and success.
(48:54):
I think the future for co creation,
I mean it really is about being brave.
Are you brave enough to ask uncomfortable questions?
Are you brave enough to listen and act on the answers?
Are you brave enough to share the things you're passionate about.
(49:17):
This episode of lead with The question was produced by me rob calen with support from my co hosts and brave core founders,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson.
The music you heard was composed by Ian as part of another project he's involved in called Moon Machine Dave Arcade created our podcast cover art special.
(49:38):
Thanks to our guest lizzie Perkins for the mission driven things she's doing at work and in her community also we really appreciate you for taking the time to co create these conversations with us,
especially when there are so many other things you could be doing if you found any value at all in these episodes,
could you do a favor,
leave us a rating even a review wherever you're listening right now.
(50:02):
It takes about two minutes and helps others discover the show as well.
If you want to learn more about the work we're doing at Brave Core,
you can check out our website at Brave Core dot c o.
The lead with a question podcast is a production of Brave Core LLC.
Thanks for being with us.
this is lead with a question we have this campaign that's called Just Ask and the whole thing is to teach people how to check in with their friends about their mental health.
Because if if I do have thoughts of suicide and someone says,
(00:23):
hey,
I've been thinking about you,
you don't have to respond.
I just wanted you to know that I really care about you and know that I want you here.
That can change the trajectory of my life.
Hi,
I'm rob Callan.
(00:44):
We live in a time when people are seeing that the old way of doing business is broken and that leading into the future requires something new,
a deeper focus on humanity,
the courage to let go of power and ego,
a desire to nurture the conditions for co creation and the bravery,
(01:04):
not to have all the answers on this show.
I along with my friends,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson connect with guests who embody these principles and whether household names or not,
they've shattered the status quo.
Often as misfits to shape the future with others and achieve miraculous things in work and life.
(01:27):
When you read a really moving story or watch a powerful film,
you can often experience a taste of what the characters are feeling,
you grieve with them as they suffer loss,
you cheer them on to victory and share in their celebrations our capacity to see ourselves vicariously and others lives is one of the most human things about us.
(01:50):
So today let's spend a few minutes with a woman whose upbringing in ASia identity as a member of the L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
Plus community and a person of faith combined with her compassionate work in suicide prevention enable her to seek to understand before seeking to be understood.
She'll take us on an eye opening journey,
(02:12):
guided by the question what possibilities can empathy unlock a conversation with lizzie Perkins on this episode of lead with a question.
(02:34):
I grew up mostly overseas in Beijing Taiwan and Hong kong and when I was 18 years old I moved to Utah for university and shocker.
There was a very big culture difference and so it took me a while to kind of find my footing and find where I belonged and then once I did and I started moving forward in my my school path,
(03:09):
I decided to,
I wanted to work with people,
I wanted to listen to them,
work with them.
And so I got into advertising research and strategy from school,
I ended up doing an internship in Miami and moving to Boulder to work at a an ad agency working with american Airlines,
(03:30):
Hershey's chocolate dominos Pizza,
you know everything that's good for self care and the soul.
After a few years doing that,
I was missing something with a little bit more purpose.
There's only so many focus groups you can do on why kids and adults love chocolate,
(03:54):
you know,
so although there's nothing wrong with chocolate.
Oh no,
I am a very big fan of you know,
chocolates of all kinds except for whoppers.
Those are not a fan.
And then from there I moved to a social cause based advertising agency in Salt Lake City where I got to do work with suicide prevention,
(04:21):
opioid abuse prevention,
working with mental health for parents and students and um it's it's been very life changing and kind of perspective shifting learning so much about mental health and underlying causes of not success and failure,
(04:46):
but predictors of happiness and health long term.
And one of the biggest things that I've noticed is no matter what the issue is,
connection and working with other people is one of the biggest predictors of future happiness,
(05:06):
health and success,
interesting.
Yeah,
well we'd love to dig in a little bit more,
you know,
in this conversation down the road.
Um as far as some of those campaigns,
some of those causes you've been a part of.
If you could,
why don't you expand upon this notion of,
you know,
a misfit experience?
(05:26):
We we've talked about that in the past collectively.
Um we've all identified as misfits.
Um,
and to a large degree we're seeing this more as as um a uniting kind of subject matter where people can,
you know,
look back at their misfit stories and you know,
recognize their differences,
(05:48):
recognize their gifts.
Um,
but what was your misfit journey like?
You kind of alluded a little bit about that with kind of the overseas kind of growing up overseas maybe start there and um give us a little bit more details about that experience and and kind of what you've learned about yourself up to this point,
I would say my life has been full of juxtapositions and seeming contradictions,
(06:13):
right?
An american girl growing up in china,
a nerdy athlete,
a bisexual mormon.
It kind of took me a long time to define my identity with all those seeming discrepancies.
But a large part of my journey to my current self perception has really been due to the people around me and the media that I've consumed,
(06:39):
which is one reason why I got into advertising in the first place.
But growing up in china,
it was interesting because I didn't realize initially when I was little that I was other um kids were kids,
I spoke english,
I spoke chinese um and it felt very normal and natural to play with other kids,
(07:05):
but it was kind of when I hit that point in middle school where you know puberty,
I shot up and at five ft seven in sixth grade,
when everyone else is much shorter,
that was like now I'm physically standing out more than I had in the past.
(07:26):
Um And then in addition to that,
a lot of my friends um their parents kind of guided their interests and their time after school towards tutoring music lessons,
things like that,
where my parents kind of let me just run free and I ended up playing a lot of sports,
(07:49):
I played rugby,
I played soccer,
I played basketball,
you played rugby and survived.
Yeah,
I mean did end up in the hospital quite a few times,
but uh,
yeah,
there was kind of this feeling of,
I'm,
I'm different than everyone else.
So around junior high is when you,
(08:11):
like puberty hit,
you started to maybe physically feel different,
look different by contrast.
You know,
I want to kind of go dig in a little bit deeper on a theme that just kind of like popped up when you were talking and it's,
it's something that I think most of us can recognize,
but I think it's worth a little bit further discussion,
(08:34):
you know,
childhood,
you know,
when we are kids and Children at play,
like the things that we let get in the way or are barriers for us to connect or maybe things that cause self doubt or things tied to our self worth,
um,
our view of ourselves,
(08:55):
you know,
insecurities perhaps,
you know,
let's talk about that a little bit what you,
what it is about Children at play that just,
you know,
those things don't matter.
Um,
I feel like I recall like my Children a little bit older now,
but taking them to the park for example,
it didn't take too long,
(09:15):
you know,
as like a five year old or six year old for them to just assimilate with what's going on on the playground and they just jump in the mix and everyone kind of figures out the role kind of quickly like,
oh that person is the leader,
I'm gonna be the follower,
here's the game.
I don't know,
let's let's talk about that a little bit.
What are your thoughts about,
(09:36):
you know,
Children at play?
And I think it's there could be a nice book written about that.
Perhaps there are Yeah,
I think when you're a child at play,
all you're thinking about is is this fun,
right?
You don't necessarily think about those things as adults become barriers to acceptance to belonging to fun.
(10:04):
But one thing that I think is pretty amazing.
There's this concept called which is a study in any kind of animal where do you retain childhood features particularly the ability to play and throughout the animal kingdom,
you kind of see bears will roll around on the ground or will play and humans have the largest ability to retain that,
(10:34):
but we also have kind of the biggest inhibition around doing so because right,
as an adult now,
it's not just is this fun,
it's is this fun?
Do I look weird?
Is this appropriate for me to be doing in this setting with these people?
(10:59):
And there are all these thoughts that just kind of run rampant of is this okay,
when in actuality I have never felt annoyed at anyone laughing or you know playing right?
Yeah,
that's interesting.
Yeah,
(11:19):
it's like there's these kind of layers of context that may or may not be real,
right,
that we perceive about how we're acting and always think about like at a dance,
everybody's so worried about how people are like how they're thinking like they're watching me dance and they're just thinking about that and yet everybody's doing that so they're all focused on the right way.
(11:44):
Alright,
so life is a dance chris we're all feeling this way all the time.
Right?
Yeah.
And then nobody stopped,
like,
I mean unless somebody is just way out there,
but like even so they're just gonna appreciate like,
wow,
they're just going like they're just full on dancing.
So,
you know like what and Yeah,
and why,
you know what happens because it's kind of within ourselves then right?
(12:05):
To say like,
okay,
well,
you know,
and then we kind of lose that spirit of playfulness which you know,
we know and creativity is powerful,
right?
Like that's where a lot of the magic happens.
And as adults,
I mean,
I feel like we're trying to find a way to tap into that childlike play.
The curiosity,
(12:25):
the how can we connect quicker,
you know,
and remove these barriers like in professional relationships in our personal relationships,
you know,
I feel like we've been programmed as adults and socially constructed too to have all these different warped views of how we can be connected or how we should view ourselves or how we do view ourselves.
(12:51):
So what,
what are some things that we can do as adults that can cut through so we can get to that childlike play quicker.
There was something I was talking about yesterday with my sister,
we were talking about how so often at work or in social settings,
(13:12):
the easiest thing to do connect over really quickly are typically negative passions.
For example,
it's really easy for me to say,
I hate work,
I had to work so many long hours this week and no matter what your profession is,
you can be like oh yeah,
(13:32):
I also had that experience but it's far less often and more powerful when you can connect over positive passions.
We had a friend,
the reason my sister and I were talking about this is we had a friend who came to we we had this party and she loves sharpies and she brought her collection of sharpies so she could kind of do a little show and tell why she loves them,
(14:02):
why they're amazing.
Even astronauts can use them in space because the ink flows differently than like not through gravity.
Anyway,
I learned all this stuff and right,
she could have had,
you know in behavioral psychology it's called that spotlight effect of oh no people are watching me is this weird and instead of you know kind of putting that scrutiny on ourselves,
(14:28):
I think one way to really cut through and make long lasting connections instead of focusing on some of those negative passions that are quick,
easy connections.
It's really,
what are some of my positive passions do I juggle?
Do I love Christiano Ronaldo?
Like what is it that I'm really passionate about?
(14:49):
And even if you aren't passionate about the same things,
it kind of gives you an insight into who I am as a person and establishes those connections that lead to a more positive relationship moving forward.
Yeah,
it's like,
it's like the and those things,
even if there's,
you know,
I mean now granted,
like as you're talking about sharpies and like,
(15:10):
yeah,
actually they are amazing really,
like they just flow smoothly and all that,
but like actually the other thing is even if it's not a direct connection,
there's something about somebody showing passion for something they love that inspires you to feel the same,
right?
Like,
and then think about those things that are like,
wow,
what am I passionate about?
You know,
to your 0.1 of the things that that stood out to me when you're talking is when I was in college,
(15:36):
I learned I learned the true difference between sympathy and empathy,
right,
sympathy is when you project your experience by connecting dots of maybe somebody else's experience.
So I think that's where,
you know,
the quicker kind of negative um connecting points people are making is is actually through sympathy.
(15:57):
It's it's usually like,
someone can identify like,
oh I've had a similar experience and they project their experience onto others and and it's it's deep and entrenched in feelings for sure but they're typically negative emotions.
Whereas empathy is a lot harder because going along the lines of the positive aspects that that are healthier to connect on.
(16:19):
And probably more rare people aren't brave enough to to share their passion so freely.
Right?
And so empathy is the opposite in the sense that it's not about you projecting a sim similar situation or experience and connecting with others based on feelings.
It's more of can you truly see their experience for what their experience was or is?
(16:47):
And it's really hard to do because first you gotta get out of your own head right?
And you can't be self can't be anchored from a self centered kind of positioning which I think sympathy tends to do more than empathy.
And so empathy is.
You know I I think it's if you're brave enough to share or show or shine with your passions right?
(17:12):
You know I think that's more of a positive connection where people can connect with empathy.
You know I love that idea because it really is.
I mean it's all about perception.
Someone else might not view it as brave for me to say oh I'm really passionate about museums but for me personally that might be hard to say.
(17:36):
And in a workplace environment like at my current workplace there have been a few times when I've been able to say,
hey,
I'm really passionate about X,
y Z for example,
mental health,
like being L G B T Q plus and being in a religious environment growing up,
(17:58):
that was also also a place where I kind of felt like a misfit and had some mental health challenges with anxiety of,
am I good enough,
Will I be enough?
Are people going to judge me?
And in my current workplace environment,
I'm able to,
you know,
(18:18):
voice that passion around mental health and healthy relationships,
connections and how that impacts people's lives for the positive.
And my managers,
my coworkers saw that passion and guess what,
that's what I work on because I was able to,
(18:39):
you know,
voice that passion,
even though it was a little bit scary to say,
hey,
I dealt a lot with anxiety.
Hey,
I have a therapist,
hey,
I am in this world of mental health.
Um I was able to end up working on things that I'm really passionate about as opposed to,
you know,
being assigned to a project that maybe doesn't resonate with me.
(19:02):
And it was scary,
but in the end it was so worth it.
Well,
let's,
let's dig into that a little bit,
you know,
um,
share,
share some of your experiences with these type of campaigns that obviously you are very passionate about.
Yeah,
I think one thing that,
you know,
all over the world we kind of struggle with is especially in America,
(19:26):
we're always in this realm of treatment.
There no one has funding for suicide prevention until there's kind of a contagious rise in suicide.
No one has money to work at drug treatment centers until there's a huge spike in overdoses.
And so,
(19:46):
um,
one thing that we've really tried to do in some of our campaigns here,
uh,
for example,
for our suicide prevention campaign,
instead of focusing on the,
hey,
you're in a crisis right now,
call this number or do this thing.
We've tried to go more upstream earlier on in the prevention cycle to say,
(20:08):
what can we do to prevent there being a crisis And Utah we have this campaign that's called just ask and the whole thing is to teach people how to check in with their friends about their mental health because if,
if I do have thoughts of suicide and someone says,
hey,
I've been thinking about you,
(20:28):
you don't have to respond.
I just wanted you to know that I really care about you.
And if you are thinking about suicide,
like know that I want you here that that can change the trajectory of my life and so trying to plant those seeds of how do you connect to prevent any any kind of crisis,
(20:49):
but just moving earlier on.
So instead of being stuck in this treatment cycle,
you know,
if you can connect about one thing earlier on and someone's struggle,
maybe they never get to that point where they abuse drugs or they plan a suicide.
Yeah,
I love that.
It's,
(21:09):
it's singular and focused,
right?
As like just ask.
But it's,
it's really broad because you could just ask like,
hey,
how are you doing today?
Right.
Right,
Right.
I mean,
I have a friend who,
uh,
he shares the story years ago,
he was in the thick of some severe depression,
like really bad.
And yeah,
he was,
(21:29):
he was contemplating right?
Like taking his own life and it was,
it was so bad.
He didn't see a way out.
He didn't have a lot of people,
you know,
in his life at the time.
And I think there was,
it was a strained relationship with his family,
like his father and just,
no,
no place to go.
Really right.
He's out on his own.
Um,
and yeah,
(21:51):
it was like a phone call,
just random.
Uh,
you know,
somebody happened to be from church guys just like,
hey,
I'm thinking about you,
you know,
how are you doing?
And he just like,
let it all out,
Right.
He's just like,
I'm in a terrible place right now.
And he's like,
wow,
like,
um what can we do to help?
And just kind of helped encourage him to feel like,
(22:13):
hey,
I've got somebody here that cares about me enough to,
first of all call.
Uh,
and then just encouraged me and he looks back and this is like 20 years later,
that was a definitive point in his life where he decided to not take his life because of that one call and then he's also decided I'm going to be that person who's calling people who's reaching out.
(22:34):
So,
you know,
he's looking for those moments to do that for others,
you know,
on on the surface level I could see,
you know,
maybe parents struggling to help their kids or teenagers with depression or suicide thoughts and I think sometimes it's a little skewed,
you know,
they think,
oh,
I need to motivate them,
(22:55):
you know,
don't don't have those thoughts or like,
you know,
they think they're going to solve it through some type of motivation or some type of encouragement,
but in reality,
you know,
kind of what you just shared lizzie and then this is the story you just shared chris it seems like one of the main antidotes to suicide prevention or depression is connectedness.
(23:18):
And so,
you know,
the just ask campaign sounds like it's a great first step,
like you said,
like planting a seed for that,
but then to take that a step further,
I wonder what people could do to to create better patterns of connecting with other people,
you know,
to to be more top of mind,
like,
you know,
(23:38):
when you have those thoughts,
it's not by accident,
you know,
some people may see that as a spiritual guidance,
right?
Where,
you know,
someone,
maybe a family member comes to top of mind for you and how often do we not act on those things,
you know,
like if we don't make a call,
you know,
sometimes I feel inspired to write a note to somebody and and sometimes I don't do it and you know,
(24:03):
in talking about it in this context,
you know,
I have regrets for not doing it.
So,
you know,
I wonder how you could take a campaign,
like just ask to,
to to connect,
you know,
find those connecting patterns for people to kind of like encourage and inspire people to connect,
right?
I think one thing that it goes back to is something you brought up earlier about empathy.
(24:27):
I've had a lot of people ask me,
oh,
what can,
you know,
I do from a religious background to show that I love and care for friends with mental health issues or friends who are L G b T Q plus or friends who are people of color who I can't,
who I,
you know,
feel like I can't connect with.
And one thing that I always say to them is feel don't fix,
(24:52):
they're not asking you to fix their problems.
Same thing with teens and their parents,
right?
If a parent is worried about their team,
their teen doesn't necessarily want their parents to fix the problem for them.
There's a little bit of confidence that is built when you kind of solve your own problems,
but what people really need is just for you to feel with them to feel for them that's the key feel with versus feel for.
(25:20):
Yeah,
Bernie Brown talks about how people need to be seen heard and valued and I feel like so often in especially workplace settings it's so easy to feel o E K.
I'm being seen.
My boss sees the work,
I do,
my coworkers see the work I do but sometimes it's a little bit harder to feel heard and valued because do people really you know here what you're communicating whether it's said or unsaid and do you feel valued compensations part of that?
(25:56):
But so is purpose.
So is a lot of the other factors that don't always come across my the times in my career when I felt most valued it's been because my coworkers and people I work with,
they appreciate the work that I'm doing.
They give me time to finish projects instead of just you know,
(26:21):
rushing things to be done.
And so I think that's one thing that in this world of how do we co create work together and kind of make magic happen?
It only happens when people are feeling valued and heard,
right?
I think one of the biggest challenges in the workplace is everyone is viewing it from their individual experience where they're waiting for empathy from others,
(26:49):
right?
And I think we gotta somehow flipped the script where from an individual pathway we seek to empathize and I think the more we embody it,
the more people other people can experience it right?
The more pervasive it's gonna be in the workplace right?
And then another thought to is empathy is is usually viewed in terms of like challenges or um tough situations people are going through.
(27:20):
But what if that was charged or channeled in a more positive way?
What if I don't know for lack of a better phrase?
What if there was more of a creative empathy that existed where people could connect over you know passion projects over things that are more constructive versus kinda like wallowing in sorrows and like tough times and our challenges.
(27:47):
You know like I think that's a higher order of empathy where it's more creative based where and that's where co creation comes into play.
So we'd love to kind of talk to you about co creative experiences you've had in in the workplace or in in your type of work with others if you want to expand upon that.
Yeah.
I think co creation is so important in a workplace.
(28:11):
If you think about nearly any type of project,
one person doing it alone is never gonna be as good as two.
Even if the second person like when I was growing up when my family would be doing a project I would always be assigned to B.
D.
(28:31):
J.
And just play music because I wasn't really good at doing necessarily though.
Like here we're going to redo our garden,
like dig a hole.
And so there's always a space for people to be their participate and add value even if it's not what you typically would assume you need.
(28:56):
And so I think there's a little bit of an artful nature to figure out how does everyone fit what's the purpose of the project and then what's the purpose of each individual.
And especially with my work in mental health communications,
(29:17):
we work with experts who know way more about the subject matter than I do.
I learn from them every day.
And while I think I know a fair bit about,
about mental health,
the work is always going to be better when we check it with experts.
And so that's in advertising.
There's,
there's no way to create effective ads if you don't work with your client,
(29:41):
if you don't work with the expert in the subject matter.
Right.
I won,
one of the things that chris and I struggle with is this concept of expertise though,
because sometimes,
um,
you know,
we can get tired of hearing from,
you know,
sources and the government like,
(30:03):
oh,
the experts weighed in on this or,
you know,
in politics,
Um,
even workplace,
right?
It's like,
um,
does there have to be a committee approval for things.
So I don't know,
I think moving forward,
uh,
I'm trying to reframe,
(30:24):
you know,
this notion of expertise as two people that have deep passion for something and they're curious about something,
yes,
I want to hear from those folks because they've taken the time to,
to really play in that area,
right?
Um,
I guess that's just a different a nuance and how it's categorized,
right?
Coming off as the expert or,
(30:45):
or someone who's passionate,
I would add to that because I think in the same light that we're talking about,
hey,
everybody has a place,
everybody belongs,
there is a space for deep expertise.
But the challenge happens when that expertise becomes very top heavy,
right?
And this person assumes that they don't need input or co creation or collaboration or partnership from really anybody to describe what their and granted,
(31:13):
like they may have the depth of perspective that maybe like near prophetic,
like they may be seeing things right,
that are nobody else's seeing,
but like how does it fit into the whole?
Um,
and that's,
that's the,
the nuance or the art of uh,
and essentially,
I think we think about it like,
hey,
it's,
it's the future,
right?
(31:33):
Because we can find a lot of,
a lot of those knowledge worker answers,
we can get from a,
I write like these algorithms,
google can spit it out five,
so I can ask google an expert level question and probably have an answer in a video tutorial from youtube faster than I can get from this person is sitting in this group,
right?
Um,
in a,
in a workplace,
but yeah,
(31:55):
then,
then then it becomes what you're talking about really lizzie we've been talking about is essentially like how do you harness that creative energy where that's going to give us something that we didn't have coming into this meeting before,
Right?
Like it's,
it's almost revelatory and it's something that we didn't expect.
It's the magic.
And when we,
you know,
it is spend time with the imagineers.
(32:17):
That was,
that was the magic of what they would experience.
But they would set the conditions right?
They would set the cultural factors in motion and then the DJ in the,
in the garden.
Yeah.
And then they actually enjoy the fact that like,
oh,
that was surprising.
I didn't know right?
Or like they say,
steve jobs would like pivot 180 degrees and disagree with himself right in the media.
(32:38):
And people would say,
well that's not the ceo is not to put like they didn't understand,
didn't know what to do with that because it was like,
you just set a hard position at the beginning this meeting.
Now,
you're saying you were wrong.
It's like,
yeah,
because what you're presenting and what we're talking about is way better.
Just kind of having that fluidity is it can be hard.
(32:58):
I was gonna say,
ultimately,
you know,
the responsibility lies with the,
the expert,
the person who's pegged themselves as the expert,
right,
is to kind of reframe,
you know,
their role as a co creator or how to open up and gain better co creative characteristics.
(33:18):
Yeah,
I would say the important thing is right,
being an expert without an ego because right,
in suicide prevention,
it's like there is a wrong way to say things,
if you say committed suicide that can be triggering,
that can be unsafe.
And so there are things that there are definite things to avoid and write,
(33:40):
an expert can help with that,
but if you have an expert with an ego,
then everything they say is right,
and there's no room to co create,
because they've set themselves up as the creator.
I had an experience with,
with this at work where there was a client and there was,
(34:01):
you know,
someone on our team who both had expertise in the same area and they were butting heads the whole the whole time we worked together and our team was trying to figure out,
okay,
what can we do to make these these two people work better together,
because both of them are so smart,
(34:22):
both of them have that expertise,
have that passion in their subject area,
but we,
we kind of went back and forth talking about this and someone was like,
it's because they have the same personality,
it's because they have the same passion,
the same expertise,
and I was like,
that's completely right,
(34:42):
that's why there was this constant one upmanship of,
I know more than you,
I'm better than you and it wasn't until one of them was able to kind of sacrifice their ego.
There you go,
lay that to rest,
that we were able to create some really amazing work defending their position to the death almost.
(35:04):
It's like how do you get into that,
like,
um mental kind of creative jiu jitsu or you allow for right,
that fluid nature of things,
you know,
take the ego out of it and uh and you know,
and I guess the question I have for that or for you is like,
not why is it so hard for people?
Because I think there's a human nature thing involved in this,
(35:26):
right?
But how do they accelerate?
Like past this?
How do we break through?
And and and and not in not just creative context,
but now that creative contexts are in many other,
like,
proliferating,
right?
Like everywhere should is essentially there's a need for creativity because for it,
that's the future,
right?
So how do how do people break through,
(35:47):
especially if they've been in the context of doing it in an expert model way,
like,
Ian's described,
you know,
or just ego based,
right?
Like how do they break through that?
That's a very tough question that I think people have been asking for a long time,
how to how to get rid of ego from my perspective,
there are two things that kind of popped to mind and one is curiosity and play.
(36:15):
Like we talked about if you're able to be curious about new things,
even if I'm an expert in a specific topic,
If I'm able to kind of lower my ego and explore topics,
explore things that are more unknown,
then that's gonna give me practice with kind of laying that ego down of,
(36:39):
okay,
I don't know everything.
This is a topic I know nothing about,
but it's fun to learn.
So I think curiosity and play is 11 way to do that.
I think another way to do that is what we've been talking about with empathy is if even if I'm an expert in this subject matter,
if I'm able to be empathetic to your experience with mental health,
(37:02):
even though it's different than mine.
And even though I might think,
oh,
well I know more than they do,
it's all about,
can I understand where you're coming from?
And if I can truly feel with you,
then it'll be easier to lay that ego down because there's it gives me a why.
(37:24):
Mhm.
Yeah,
I like that.
Um It seems to there's like it like that that's the perfect segue to okay,
and then and then we're in doing so,
we're gonna build something,
you know,
uh well,
not only that we haven't done before,
but that could really be amazing,
right?
And I don't know that everybody's experienced that before,
(37:47):
but the beauty,
that's why,
like part of what we're,
what we've been inspired by is creatives,
right?
Because,
you know,
innately,
people,
you know,
like you who are just making an impact on the world every day in a creative way,
right?
Looking for these ways to connect people through empathy,
connect dots,
collaborate,
(38:07):
brain trust,
you know,
and and what that can do right for and then what that can do when applied to products and services and and anything right in life.
But especially in those places where it's just been kind of rinse and repeat,
right?
It's like,
okay,
we're keeping the boat afloat.
You know,
(38:27):
everybody in the,
in the,
in the engine room,
right?
Like keep it going right?
And yet nobody's stopping to say,
hey,
let's what if we build a different boat,
right?
Like,
let's look at the whole blueprint here,
upgrade this entire thing,
right?
Make it different.
I think it's,
I think it's important to like,
you know,
this,
this um,
kind of feeling of,
or desire to challenge the status quo.
(38:50):
It's not that we have to scrap the old boat completely and start with a new boat.
I think that's where people are guarded.
You know,
in organizations,
I think there's,
it's just having a,
it's a reframe,
right?
It's like,
it's not,
we're not totally in destitute.
Like we're not,
you know,
things aren't as bad as we probably amplify them.
(39:13):
There's building blocks,
right?
There's things that do work.
So it's like,
how can we take the best of,
you know,
in these work,
working environments and then create and build,
you know,
to make it even better to improve upon,
right?
So it's like,
I think that's where there's some friction with the old guard and the new energy,
(39:39):
you know,
when it comes to the future of work.
And so I think the new energy has to be empathetic towards things that are good,
you know,
like there maybe it's a question of gratitude as well,
right?
It's like what things already work in our lives,
you know,
that we may take for granted,
(40:00):
right?
Um those are things that I'm wrestling with two,
it's just,
that's a good perspective,
you know,
that's a really good point too,
because if,
and I have approached things like this at times,
right?
I know people have like,
where it's just the assumption is it's two stories,
right?
You got the rebel forces and you've got the Empire and freaking Darth Vader the boss,
(40:21):
right?
Like,
and that's,
you know,
and it's,
it's just all out war right in the universe.
But to your point like how do you appreciate,
okay,
here's the things that are great,
right that have worked.
I mean,
most people are in a company that has had some measure of success,
right?
Or some or wherever they're at,
right?
Or even a family,
it's like,
hey,
there's a measure of success about what they're doing for great leaders that have embodied principles in these environments that are challenging,
(40:48):
right?
It's like we can continue to learn from the leaders that have survived those environments and then how do you take what's great and just amplify,
right?
And add to uh yeah,
it gets to like the Ed Catmull thing too.
About,
was it,
you know,
success is what,
what,
(41:08):
how did he describe?
It was like,
success is an assumption about there's there's a certain percentage of failure,
right?
And every every so called success.
And without stopping to break down what the percentage of failure is.
You run the risk of,
you know,
that that that could emerge and it could be something,
right?
So,
but on the flip side,
there is a certain percentage of success.
(41:29):
So how do you take that?
Amplify it?
Not be complacent.
one time,
seeing that in action Was I worked on Domino's,
I mean,
it was years after the fact,
but back in 2004 ish,
there was what in our company we called the,
(41:52):
you know,
domino's pizza turnaround.
And it's because they had before that point in time really focused on we're going to deliver in under 30 minutes,
which meant oftentimes the pizza wasn't always the best.
Right?
They're just trying to get that pizza made so you can get it in 30 minutes.
So their delivery system was amazing.
But the pizza was not and the ad agency I worked for kind of went back to dominos with focus group footage of people being like domino's pizza tastes terrible.
(42:25):
It tastes like cardboard.
It's not good.
I like I would,
even though I can get pizza fast,
like I'm gonna get it somewhere else.
And that domino's client was able to lay down their ego and be like,
okay.
And yeah,
to your point,
it's not completely new building blocks.
(42:46):
They didn't change everything.
They kept,
you know,
that really great delivery service system and they continue to build on that with guarantees of like for your pizza,
whether you pick it up or it's delivered.
But they had an ad campaign that launched that was they completely redid their pizza recipe and they went to those individual homes from the focus group of people who said it tasted like cardboard,
(43:14):
it wasn't good.
And the whole ad campaign was like that interview footage of them saying it tasted like cardboard with this new delivery of the upgraded pizza.
And everyone being like,
oh,
this is good,
pizza,
I'll pay for this.
And domino's was brave enough to put that out there.
(43:36):
That their old pizza sucked and this is their new pizza.
Talk about dropping your ego,
right?
That you were referring to earlier.
We're leaning into this future.
Yeah,
wow.
And they saw,
you know,
thousands of percent of growth over the next 10 years because of that turning point where they made the decision to redo their pizza and own up to it.
(44:02):
And and there was there was already great elements with dominoes,
but you're right like around that time frame when,
when that shift was made,
like I noticed a difference in the quality of the pizza,
like I'm actually still okay with domino's pizza like in my mind um but it's more of a,
it's more of a value shift right?
Or focus shift,
right?
(44:22):
So the focus was on the speed of delivery and then they had to return to the quality and the taste and experience for the food,
right?
So sometimes organizations,
they lose sight of the things that really connect to the consumers,
right?
They get hung up in optimizing their systems,
their protocols and it just maybe an an alignment issue of the wrong values or focuses at the moment.
(44:49):
And that's I think that's where we were getting out earlier with,
you know,
there are good things,
it's just kind of finding that alignment in getting those values align and in dominoes case,
like the example Lizzy shared,
you know,
our our organizations willing to look at the reality of where things stand now,
(45:11):
are they willing to pivot?
Are they willing to sacrifice and make changes that are hard?
It's messy,
right?
And we see the businesses that are struggling right now,
perhaps it starts with being able to look truly at the reality and it starts with connecting connecting with the people if you're going to get to the truth in an organization,
(45:36):
Talk to your line workers,
talk to the people that are having a miserable experience really pop open the hood of culture and try to understand,
you know what,
what's you know what,
what are people frustrated with?
Yeah,
this is good,
good full circle taking that theme of just ask right as the power of questions to write for people like me right up and down the organization like,
(46:05):
hey,
just ask,
yeah,
what are you feeling like what's going on in your world?
Right.
I had a friend who is a consultant and they're working with this company.
It was like a uh woodworking or like a lumber company.
So they build all this stuff and wood and when they got upset with the bosses and I think they were unionized or I don't remember exactly,
(46:26):
but they had a group of people that worked there that they were kind of band together,
right?
It's typical,
right?
And it's like,
okay,
if they got upset,
there was like a vibe that would kind of move through,
right the group.
And so and if they were mad at the bosses,
the response wasn't,
hey,
go talk to the bosses or try to mediate this or figure it out.
It was go feed the hog.
(46:48):
And they're like,
and my my friend who's consulted,
he's like,
what's who's the what's the hog?
And they took into this back room and there's like this,
it's basically a shredder of of wood and they would just take the wood and just dump it in there and waste it,
like just grind it all right.
And so like their response to being upset with bosses was like,
(47:09):
we're just going to take it out on the,
on,
on the bottom line,
right?
And it was a stupid,
it's like the stupidest thing in the world,
right?
Um,
and it's such a waste right of resources of time of energy.
These people are upset and they're not and it doesn't even really help them.
It's just like they think it's a good thing chip on your shoulder,
(47:29):
you know?
So versus okay.
Yeah.
And granted that was probably on the bosses to or the leaders right to say to just ask like,
hey,
how,
you know,
and,
and not just that,
but also into it and to empathize right on the like,
and I like what you said earlier and this is such a great theme about like on the front end,
right?
Like versus just downstream,
(47:51):
like,
you know,
being thoughtful and intentional and this has a lot to with culture,
right?
Leaders saying,
hey,
what kind of culture do we want to have?
You know,
and if I were in their shoes,
you know,
we see like shows like undercover boss to do this,
but it's kind of become a trope like it's always like they're always surprised,
right?
Like I don't even know these people like this amazing,
(48:12):
like what are they going through?
Like it's always the same thing.
They sit down.
That's what's sad is like they haven't integrated like the whole storyline is you're disconnected from your organization,
you need a major intervention as in Yeah,
just ask,
right?
Like just stop and like empathize and you know,
get get in their shoes,
right?
Yeah,
(48:32):
I think successful businesses ventures relationships all come down to,
can you connect feel with and empathize uh with the people in your life who surround you and that's what's gonna ultimately determine health,
happiness and success.
(48:54):
I think the future for co creation,
I mean it really is about being brave.
Are you brave enough to ask uncomfortable questions?
Are you brave enough to listen and act on the answers?
Are you brave enough to share the things you're passionate about.
(49:17):
This episode of lead with The question was produced by me rob calen with support from my co hosts and brave core founders,
chris Deaver and Ian clawson.
The music you heard was composed by Ian as part of another project he's involved in called Moon Machine Dave Arcade created our podcast cover art special.
(49:38):
Thanks to our guest lizzie Perkins for the mission driven things she's doing at work and in her community also we really appreciate you for taking the time to co create these conversations with us,
especially when there are so many other things you could be doing if you found any value at all in these episodes,
could you do a favor,
leave us a rating even a review wherever you're listening right now.
(50:02):
It takes about two minutes and helps others discover the show as well.
If you want to learn more about the work we're doing at Brave Core,
you can check out our website at Brave Core dot c o.
The lead with a question podcast is a production of Brave Core LLC.
Thanks for being with us.
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