July 21, 2025 • 58 mins
Can you go through life thinking you're kind, open-minded, and still discover a racist within you at 40?
In this bold and honest conversation, we sit down with our friend and psychophonetics counsellor Natalia Cervinkova, who bravely shares her personal story of uncovering deep-seated racial bias within herself: something she didn’t even realise was there.
We talk about:
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Why this is more common than people think
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How racism and unconscious bias works
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The difference between being “not racist” and being anti-racist
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And most importantly - what needs to change if we want to raise better humans and build a better world together
This episode isn’t about blame - it’s about courage, self-reflection, and change.
It’s raw. It’s uncomfortable. And it’s exactly the kind of conversation we all need to have.
With love, Ivaana & Yaw
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(03:06):
because our twins are in Slovakia with my mom and we only have one child who is in the nursery now. So we actually had the chance and time to do this during the day. It's so cool, isn't it? This is annual leave. Yay. Maybe when we have a sponsor. No pressure there.
(03:27):
then we can pay someone to watch the kids while we record, even when the twins are here, so we don't have to rely on the evenings. So we can generate a better content
you know, and bring more value to the people. So if you want to sponsor us, just feel free to reach out. So we can get childminder. Okay, good one. How sad is this? No, it's cool. This is the natural transition of a podcast. Yes, exactly. And then we can get a second mic maybe.
(04:03):
we will get a second mic before the next our next we've been doing this for over a year and where are we still a kitchen kitchen table it's just like you hear all this that's actually that is actually um podcast a real podcast is kitchen you know dining table and that type of thing yeah what kind of videos are you watching
(04:28):
So I see all these stories where after one year we already have a studio and we earn £10,000 per month and I was like, ooh, okay. So no pressure, but if you or anyone you know would like to support our amazing podcast or our family, feel free. We're open to any suggestions. Yes. On that note...
(05:01):
On that note, maybe this is not the best topic if you want to look for sponsors, is it? No, but today we have... Actually, it sounds like a deep topic, but it doesn't have to be. It depends on how we approach it, right? I don't know how I'll actually call the episode yet officially, but our work title is I used to be a racist and I'm not anymore or why I'm not anymore.
(05:28):
But we'll see how the chat goes. I might change the title if we divert. You never know. And we are speaking to an amazing lady and my friend from primary school, Natalia. Oh, sounds sexy when I say it with this accent. And she very bravely offered to talk to us on this subject.
(05:55):
And it's something I can relate to myself. I'm very open about it. So it's a bit funny talking about us being racist or used to being racist while having a black guy sitting next to me. But let's see how that goes. Even going as far as having a black guy being married to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that goes without saying, no? Yeah, okay. So it's quite funny. Anyway, so hi, Natalia. Hi, everyone. How are you? You look gorgeous.
(06:26):
Thank you so much. I'm also sorry for you guys that you don't see her. But yeah, she looks amazing, glowing, happy. Are you feeling that way or is it just a lie? No, actually, I feel that way today. That's amazing. I often feel like crap and people say, oh, you look great. And I'm like, really? Yeah.
(06:48):
And vice versa, sometimes I feel great and people are like, oh, did you, there's something to, you know, no, there's nothing. You put on weight or something. So I hinted what we're going to talk about or hinted, I just said it. And I don't know where to start, to be honest with you, because we both know what we want to say.
(07:12):
We both know what this is about. But where do we start? What do we mean by I used to be racist? Because to be honest, I'm not sure if this is something you can overcome fully. I said in one of the previous episodes that I am conscious of my own bias that I still have. And it's not something...
(07:34):
It's not a bad thing because I think people sometimes are worried to admit they have bias or prejudice because they feel they would be bad people. But this is the result of our upbringing, especially in our country, Slovakia. We have a thing about, should I say gypsies or Romanians? Romanians, what's better? Romanians. Yes, Romanians. And we were raised...
(08:05):
So people around us would plant these little seeds, like, oh, wash your hands when you get off the bus. Wash your hands because gypsies or Romanians were touching the poles. All these little, little, there are so many. If you can remember some, just feel free to share. So, of course, when you grow up with this thinking,
(08:28):
then of course it impacts you. How can it not? So it's not our fault. And like I said, we had that with Romanians, but it does impact other races as well. So even now I'm aware that if I see a brown person sometimes, the thoughts that pop in my head, I'm like, oh my God. And I've had them my whole life. The problem was I wasn't aware of it and I would even...
(08:58):
What's the word? I would deny that I had bias or I had some issues. I would say, no, me, I have friends who are black. I have friends who are, you know, Romanians. And many people think that this is the case. If you have friends or people you love, of course, you can't have bias.
(09:24):
This is my point, our point today, that you can and you do most likely if you're white. And we want to prove it to you. Just like I'm going around, you know, and I'm just proving to white people, you have bias.
uh, I often have discussions with my family and it's, it's a, it's a huge thing because it took me years to understand that this is actually the case. Yeah. Um, but yeah, tell me your experience. Let's start with our upbringing in Slovakia and all these Romanian things. So how do you remember it? You growing up? Yeah. Um,
(10:05):
My story is nearly like yours, yeah? So when we were kids, exactly, Romanians are dirty. They smell. They have a sickness. They are disgusting. They just, you know, they are not normal human beings. They are like something less. Like insects, you know? Some people would say insects. It's like, it's just a belief that it's actually written in your brain that
(10:36):
They are just not the same as us. And I, you know, yes, there are a few people, Romanians in Slovakia, they live that way. They live in a village with the rats and all of this. But it doesn't mean that they are not human. They are not people, you know. So, yeah, my story is the same. And I didn't realize that maybe until last year, when I'm 41, that how much I was...
(11:07):
- Bias? - Yeah. And I was gonna say that how much I feed the hatred towards brown, black people in my heart. And it has changed a lot. - So what happened? When did you realize this? - I think it's last maybe couple of years because I am doing, you know, the psychophonetics counseling and our teacher always teaching us, look at everyone and look at your client through your heart.
(11:41):
So I started to realize last year, if I have a client like that or a client with this issue or this issue, it doesn't matter. Look at him through your heart. So a few months ago, and it's not just with the black people. It was also like different things. I realized it. Why can I not see them, you know, differently? Why can I not look at them through different lens?
(12:10):
So a few months ago, yeah, it was a big turning point for me. And I realized I don't want to be racist anymore. It's not fair because they are the same people like we are. Yeah. And it's just, yeah, it's, I feel like more freedom and yeah. And I just, I just feel, I just feel that it's not fair for them because many of us live like that. Yeah. Yeah.
(12:41):
I think you meant, sorry, I've got the croaky voice and stuff in the morning. This whole topic that, you know, we're talking about here, people can come and listen to this and they can turn around and pick tiny little things and stuff here, there and everywhere. But this is such a major topic to be able to kind of come onto here and be open.
(13:12):
And, you know, you don't know the backlash and stuff that some of these things and stuff can kind of, but be open and courageous enough to turn around and say what you're saying. It's a really, really big thing to do.
and it takes that courage it really does take that courage to understand and say look I'm this and we've all absolutely every single one of us have got something that we're biased about because it's just a natural thing that we would have had impressions on us as we've grown if you're young certain things that
(13:50):
And it could be tiny things that are said that, you know, obviously turn around and affect our way of thinking to a certain extent. But over a period of time, like you're saying, it took something that was outside of your, and I'm not saying it has to be something outside of your normal kind of day to day, but something happened that affected you. And then you made a choice. You made a choice to turn around and think about it. You know, people can still have the facts in front of them.
(14:20):
And still decide, you know what, it's easier for me to just carry on being the way that I am and just go on. Because life is easier that way. It takes a big thing to turn around and put the mirror up to yourself and look at yourself and turn around and say, look,
Yeah, this isn't quite right. Let me look into it. Yeah, you can be very proud of yourself. Absolutely. And me, you didn't say me. Anybody, anybody, everybody, everybody who takes that, yeah, everybody should kind of, you know, pat themselves on the back and things and think, you know what, if I'm making conscious efforts...
(14:59):
to try and better myself in any way, not just on the racist side of things, but in any way, you're taking positive steps and you think, you know what, I am trying. Why is that not a bad thing? Yeah. Understanding where you are, where you may have been. Yeah. Is something and you're moving forward.
(15:20):
Who's anybody else to turn around and say you're this or that? You should be proud of yourselves. If you carry on, even more. Yeah.
Oh, now I forgot what I wanted to say. Did I talk too long? Too much, yeah. Yeah. That's all right. I have that thing, don't I? It was nice. Go on, you go, Natalia. I can add on something that I'm just also see this situation as a mother that if my daughter would play with the black child, yeah, I...
(15:53):
I don't think I would ever say that, you know, don't play with him or her, but maybe there would be this idea like, what is the family and, you know, where are they coming from? But yeah, and it is, of course, three of us or two, like Ivka, me and you, like it is brave to admit that because I can see some of the faces in my family, like, you know, what is she talking about? And because
(16:20):
People don't want to admit. People will be like, oh, that's not true. And they are dirty, blah, blah, blah. But it doesn't have to be this way. So, yes. So me as a mother thinking, I don't think I would ever really judge. And I would never say my daughter don't be a friend with a girl like that. But it's now. I don't know how my opinion, what my opinion would be 10 years ago. But it never happened before.
(16:48):
But it's still happening. And then I see how this hatred goes through the parents to the child. And they don't see that it's just repeating the pattern. It's like with religion and everything. It's just we have so much hate in this world already. And the...
(17:12):
the things happening with immigrants and everything, I think made it worse because I think it's like bringing more, we have to hate them because this is what they are doing. Like, I'm not saying what is right or wrong, but I see, I see there is behind it something like, oh, we should just hate them more. And, you know, and it's just, I think if everybody would change just little bit of their opinion, um,
(17:43):
It could be just different. Yeah. It's a hard topic, isn't it? Oh, yeah. And I wondered, you know what most people say in our country about Romanians, that it's not that we don't like them or hate them, it's
their behavior. So they are stealing, they are killing. Yeah. So it's our experience that created this hatred. It's not their color, the color of the skin. Yeah. What do you think of that? This again, it's a difficult way to go because you, you, I can't think that you can just start from your experience because if you
(18:28):
You're talking about, and I'm not right in how I'm doing this. I don't have a thing in, I don't know, psychology or, you know, human behaviours. Just get to the point. You don't need the degree is my point. No, the point that I was trying to make was...
there's, it's been happening, it could have been happening for generations. So there's the socio economic side of things where if you said at one point, certain Romanians were given certain kind of bits of land or buildings or certain things where they should have been able to have done something with it. But
(19:14):
If you give something, it's like, you know, give a fish to someone, you feed them for a day, but then give them the tools and stuff and teach them how to fish and you feed them for a lifetime. It's that same thing. If you turn around and act a certain way to people and then afterwards you don't change, you've just given them something, they're still fighting against a whole societal kind of thing
(19:41):
of people still viewing them and judging them in a certain way. So anytime that they jump on a bus or anytime that they, they go to school or sometimes anytime that they try to do something to progress in a certain way, they go for a job, they go for this, they do that.
And they're hitting brick walls and you're hitting brick walls, brick walls, brick walls. And it's not to excuse when somebody does something wrong. But if that's the only if you found that your kids are hungry and the only way to feed them was to do something not great. Yeah. Why wouldn't you do that? I'm not going to sit there while my kids starving or whatever and things.
(20:28):
Because somebody else has decided, I can't have this. I can't have a bank account. I can't turn around and get the job that I was really, you know, my mindset was I'm going to be different from others.
And I want to turn around and do this and be productive. And, and again, everything that we say here, it's, it can't be a generalization because not everybody is like this, but if you have those moments and those people understand that this is the kind of rejection that I'm going to get, I'm going to do what I need to do to make sure that my family survive. And when you're talking about immigration there and stuff, Natalia, yeah,
(21:08):
if my my children and my family are in danger why would I not want to be in a situation where they're safer even if you had the the situation where you go somewhere where people seems like they hate you and things I can deal with your words and stuff if I know with my family are going to be you know I'm not going to be bombed I'm not going to be killed I'm not going to be you know
(21:34):
absolute dire things that if you put yourself in the mind of the person or the family you're there what would you honestly look to do in that situation yeah yeah it's easy for people to say and i hate it what do you see natalia when people say oh i hate immigrants because then there is say in england yeah because then there is lots of foreigners not enough english people anymore how how horrible is that isn't it
(22:02):
I would say one thing blame the government don't blame the people like this is very brave statement but I'm sorry you know they should prepare for it more you can expect when it's going to happen prepare for it rather than you know not everybody has the right reasons you know
(22:33):
There's good and bad in anything and everything that we do. But you can't turn around and tell me that a family who's starving, who, what, they somehow get over, they get a chance, and they don't get over with, they're paying people, right? They're probably somehow collating some sort of money or whatever to get over. These things aren't cheap.
(22:59):
They're not like, you know, you give me a pound or you give me a dollar or you give me a euro and I'll take you over. They're having to kind of put tens of thousands of pounds and stuff together to somehow get over to do what they need to do. And in most cases...
Look at the UK. We're a multicultural society that have been built over so many centuries with immigrants. Who here is English? Mm-hmm.
(23:31):
realistically you go back far enough we've all come from somewhere and we've all this is what gets to me the you're going to start me off and things this this is what gets to me you know we have a guest here right sorry but this what what really gets to me is we the english have gone everywhere
(23:53):
America isn't America. They're not natives. They've come from America. You go to Australia. They're not the natives of that land. They're English, you know, and there are other countries and stuff that have gone. People have emigrated to other places and taken control. And you turn around and have this conversation that we don't want. If you go back far enough and everybody was to suddenly go back to where they were, what would this place look like? Where would other places look like?
(24:22):
you can't, I hate this conversation. I hate, it's an easy, it's an easy topic to kind of point at people coming in, taking our jobs, taking our women, you know, you know, it's such, and it's been done so many, so many times over and over.
(24:45):
Okay. You, you probably want to talk because otherwise I'll, I'll just get heated. But can black people have bias as well? Everybody has bias to a certain extent. Um, you'll have, you may have in, in my country, there's, there's, there's always been a thinking that if you, um, if you, if you get married, look to have somebody. So my heritage is Ghanaian. Um,
(25:15):
If I look to get married, I should probably look for someone who has a similar culture, similar kind of background, because it means that the way that you is is a kind of thing of it's likely that they might have similar kind of upbringing, you know, and we were talking about how our parents kind of come in.
(25:35):
I've clearly not that... You know, I find someone who I care about and someone who I know cares about me is more than enough for my life. Right? And clearly that's you if you just... After 10 years, do you still think this? After yesterday, we had a bit of a fight. So, yes, I still do think that, but don't worry. Maybe this bit will be edited out. No, I just...
(26:06):
It's everybody has a certain level of bias. My my dad came over. Sorry if I kind of rattling on a little bit. But when my dad came from Ghana and, you know, we've got wind rush where a lot of Caribbean's, you know, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, a lot of members came from their native land. You say native, but from their countries to here.
(26:34):
And you tell me that if you come somewhere and you can see quite clearly in like, say, boarding rooms and things like this, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. How does that not affect you? How can you turn around? And, you know, you've been fed stories of, oh, it's a promised land. It's this, it's that.
(27:01):
And you can see quite openly such racist things. And I'm not saying it's exactly the same and stuff now. That's not what, but you can't have those kind of things impacting you and turn around and say that doesn't affect you in any way, because you want your child to make sure that they don't go through anything similar to what you've been through. So you say to them, oh, you know what?
(27:29):
if you stay within your culture you're probably not going to face as much kind of hatred or impact and stuff from other people because people still judge you go certain places and me and you together they see a black and white woman together some people will judge and it all they may get to know us and think oh you know what actually
(27:55):
They're lovely. They're really nice people. That black guy, he's a really nice bloke and stuff. And I sound good because I talk the Queen's English to a certain extent. So I'm okay. Oh, he's all right. He's fine. He's one of the good ones. There's a million of the good ones. You know, there's a million of us who have interracial marriages, partnerships, you know, relationships.
(28:25):
We're good. We just need to kind of step outside of our own comfort zones and just have a little bit of a look. Go back to Natalia because you're talking way too much. I would like to know, Natalia, what thoughts did you catch yourself thinking that, you know, took you by surprise? Yeah. I was thinking about that, you know, the hatred thing.
(28:55):
every time we judge someone or we hate someone it's always come back to us yeah and so it's like yeah I see this damaging to each of us when we do it it doesn't matter if it's black people is it somebody with blue hair doesn't matter and what I was thinking that I see I think black people already live with I would say with the fear and shame and being judged um
(29:28):
So I actually, it was maybe a month ago, I saw somebody different color, yes, and my first, very first second idea, I was like, you know, and then I actually stuck myself on. I was like, this person is probably being judged and maybe living a fear and maybe walking between white people already feeling like he is or she is less. I was like,
(29:52):
Why would I do that? But it was one second and I stopped. And I just caught myself. I don't have to be part of this. And then also what came to my mind was how many people would judge people from Africa or whatever. But how many people go and say, oh, African people have amazing tribes and they have amazing culture and they are connected to the nature. Like,
(30:21):
choose your side then you know because because they you know they are connected to this and this and oh we should be like them and we should you know you see the women um naked breastfeeding and whatever and we many uh people would admire that what not many but maybe like holistic way people would admire that but the same time they think like oh i would never live there and
(30:45):
you know yeah yeah it's uh what is the hypocrite hypocrite yeah yeah by the way sorry i have a water here okay it's all right you can drink you're allowed yeah it's absolutely fine all good we do have water as well actually i'm gonna have a sip myself so yeah so uh another thing uh what was it just uh oh
(31:18):
I'm just waiting. This will be cut out, this waiting. But it has to come back because it was good. Hold on. No pressure. Sorry. Can I? No, say first. You're the guest, so I'll be nice. Whatever, thank you. No, I was just going to say, I also admire Yao sitting here and it must be so difficult to listen to this and be a part of this. You had to overcome a lot of
(31:54):
I don't know, like, I would say you have so much strength to sit here and talk about that also. It's not just us to deny it, but you being in the position we talk about, like, wow. Like, I admire you for this, yo. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm not going to lie. When Ivanka mentioned the topic, I was like, oh, here we go. But I get it. I get it.
(32:27):
It needs to be talked about. How do we change things if we don't talk about it? Yeah, exactly. The openness, the courage. If one person turns around and says, okay, I kind of get it. I'll try and do something. That's amazing. That means, you know, the ripple, the butterfly ripple effect has kind of kicked in. Yeah. I was going to say that what I see very often is white people saying,
(32:58):
Oh, black people. And I was one of them. So no judgment there. They are so sensitive and so... What's the word? Paranoid. Because when I have a bad approach to them or I just accidentally maybe say something and they're all immediately, oh, is that because I'm black? And you don't think about it as a white person unless you're in that world. It's like, what? Of course not. Oh,
(33:29):
Someone said to me that when they were in the US, they didn't want to shake a black person's hand because their head was dirty. I mean, the white person's head was dirty. So they didn't want to make the black person. They worked in the kitchen. And when they refused to give him the hand, the black person right away said, oh, is that because I'm black? Yeah. So.
(33:52):
And they were like, what? Like, you're so paranoid, you're sensitive. But I understand that now, if you live with that your whole life, it's like us, for instance, sometimes we, us people, like me and Natalia, living in a foreign country, we sometimes feel that we're treated differently as foreigners. So it's the same thing. Or women, you know, and their rights, like...
(34:15):
You have all the rights to think sometimes you are paid less maybe because you're a woman. Yeah. So I don't see how that is different in any way. It's different forms, but I understand where you're coming from and things. Yeah. If you're judged...
(34:35):
because of, I don't know, again, I'm not perfect in this. No, because you don't have these reactions, but I understand if people do. Yeah, absolutely. If you feel that you're getting a reaction because of a certain something, that happens again and again and again. It's not a, oh, what was that? I'm not quite sure. But when things start repeating themselves and you've had them, like you were mentioning there, Natalia,
(35:03):
thank you when you were saying about, you know, the repeat, the repetitiveness of certain things that I've experienced and stuff in my life or in our lives in certain way, they have an effect. They, they impact how you are. And, you know, yeah, it's just, it's, it's a difficult one. Yeah. And I, I want to say one example, for instance. Yeah. So people understand what I'm talking about. Maybe a bit more, but,
(35:32):
We ordered, what was it, Chinese, I think, takeaway. And we were waiting and then someone knocked on the door and opened half an hour late. And I thought, oh, that must be the delivery. I opened the door and there was a brown, maybe Pakistan woman.
with a scarf on her head. I could just see the eyes and some back. I was like, oh my goodness, a beggar. That was my first thought, yeah? That's a beggar and now she's going to ask for money. That's going to be awkward, yeah? And then I was looking at her, waiting, and I said, can I help you? And she says, you ordered a delivery, right? I was like, oh, okay. So these little things, yeah, and I realized, oh my God, it didn't even occur to me this lady could actually be a delivery lady. Yeah? Yeah.
(36:19):
um do you have any example like that natalia yeah i was just gonna tell you it happened to me last week because i am moving the house so there is like um on facebook there is a page you can give like whatever for free and people would come and collect like really literally anything what you don't need so yeah i had there like few few things and um
(36:42):
It was actually this woman, it was a black woman. She messaged me if she can collect the table. And I was like, of course, but the first, again, the first second of like, you know, are they going to be okay? Blah, blah, blah. So she came, she parked in front of my house with her husband and I just opened the door and I was like, just come in because the table is really heavy. And they were really surprised. Like, we can come in? And I was like, of course. And then another thing happened.
(37:12):
And I was really so emotional because they left their shoes in front of the house. People in Ireland walk everywhere, yeah? Or maybe in England, like they don't take the shoes off. They left the shoes in front of the house. And so humble couple came and took the table and told me maybe 15 times, thank you, thank you, thank you.
(37:36):
And I was just looking and I said, like, thank you so much also for taking it because, you know, I don't have to get rid of it. And then I said, also, thank you for taking your shoes off because this is what we do in Slovakia. And they were so lovely and kind people. So they left and I was actually feeling like,
Those people are so humble and lovely. And half an hour later, they sent me a picture from their living room that the table has a new home. And I was like, they were so like kind. And it was like, it was a really good experience for me to see that, you know,
(38:16):
the first reaction when I said like come inside the house they were like you know because maybe most of the people would say like there's your table you know go away and I was like no just come in like you know what's the problem so it was really lovely for me to see that they were surprised and I was surprised at how it touched them but they touched me also yeah oh you know what I just realized if I had
(38:43):
a black person message me on Facebook marketplace I would be a bit like as well you know and this is my point so I'm not that bad you married black man I know but that's why I'm saying this you can like when people say I'm not racist because I have a friend who is black makes my blood boil yeah now because I probably used to say the same thing
(39:13):
You can marry a black person, you can have black kids and still have that little racist in you. It's very hard to say that. But it is what it is. I know it's not my fault. I'm not doing that on purpose. It's wired in our brains, the way we were raised. When you hear something, the whole childhood story.
(39:39):
You hear lots of hate about people. We didn't hear anything about black people in particular, but it does impact. You are brown, you are whatever, you are bad. You are something we need to get rid of. This is what people were saying. We need to... Where they live, there should be a bomb. Someone should drop a bomb there and things like that. And as a child, when you hear this...
(40:07):
what, you know, beliefs will you have? I don't know what to say. That's a lot to unpack. Yeah. It's like, for me, it's the same pattern. If you would hear from your mum, you are not handy, you are ugly, everything you touched, you drop off, blah, blah, blah. It's the same belief. It's the same. You have to, I think, become an adult and take responsibility for
(40:37):
in your own mind and subconscious to, if you want to change it, it's like really with everything what is written from the childhood. It's like you said, I don't say that I never ever will judge or maybe there won't be this second of, oh, they are different, they are dirty, they are coming from blah, blah, blah. But it's just catch it and go through this and realize like, why I don't want to do it anymore because I,
(41:06):
They might not even know it, but it's not healthy for my internal, you know, for my soul. Yeah. That's what we need to do if we want to change things. Stop denying them and just admit, okay, I have bias. I have a little racism in me or whatever. That's what brings the change, not by putting our heads in the sand. What do you think, Jao?
(41:37):
It's just, yeah, I, I already, my, my thinking is, I think I mentioned it before is people can come onto this or listen to this and have quick judgments. And if you do that, then you need, you really need to put the, the mirror up to yourself because the quick judgments don't help you don't help.
(42:08):
society don't help anybody what you need to kind of do is turn around and think what do i have that i can work on and that's that's it we all have something yeah not just turn around and go you pick you know you can pick through things and go oh they said this or they did that or they their stance was this or whatever but so did you i would say we all do exactly bad stuff
(42:36):
But the challenge is what can we do in each of us to move forward in a positive way? Yes. No, I love it. It's really hard to listen to some of the things that have been said, but it's very empowering to hear some of the things that are being said because people will not have these conversations. And it's just good to, yeah, it's just positive. It really is.
(43:06):
I like this. Do you still love me? Yeah, we're alright. Alright? You're still friends, yeah. No, of course I love you. Talking about this, talking about this, since actually, even if I didn't realise I'd been a racist, but there was always one thing I was always jealous of for every time I saw a mixed...
(43:36):
you know black and white child mixed race girl with a beautiful curly hair and I was like I would love to have a girl like that but then there was a part of me I don't want a man like that but now maybe I would actually they think I'm actually but we are such people in some way
(44:05):
Sorry. It's so good. It's so good. I mean, yeah, I love this conversation. To talk, to be open, it's
It really is the only way that we have a real chance of making a real change in stuff in life. Yeah. There was just one more thing I wanted to touch on is racist jokes. Okay. You want me out of this one? No, no, no, no Slovakian jokes, racist jokes in particular. So an example from our relationship. Yeah.
(44:39):
So I don't know why I thought it was a great idea to tell you some of the racist jokes when we started dating. Yeah. Yes, I used to say racist jokes. I'm not proud of it. But yeah, anyway.
I don't know any of racist jokes. I don't know any. Really? You don't know them from Slovakia. You feel like you're in the spotlight now, do you? No, but I can edit this out, so it's all good. So I was telling you something, and to me it was a completely harmless joke. I don't want to say towards what religion, in particular this one was,
(45:21):
And you told me like, but don't say this out loud in front of people. Yeah. And I was like, why? It's harmless. I don't mean it. I don't hate these people. It's just a joke. But now I understand. It took me years again. Thanks to you, daddy. Okay. That it's not harmless at all because...
(45:47):
Yeah, it's not harmless because when someone hears it or when you say it over and over, it does impact the way you see the world and how you react to certain things. It's like I say, subconscious doesn't have a sense of humor, right? So even if you mean it as a joke, it does leave a mark or imprint on your subconscious in one way or another.
(46:13):
This is a whole new session. No, because lots of... No, it's not. It's not, because lots of people say these jokes, even to me, thinking it's funny to tell me racist jokes now towards black people, yeah? And they think, oh, it's just a joke. It's harmless. I'm not racist, yeah? But... Ask them to tell me the jokes. Let's see. Let's enjoy this joke together. And they... You know how many will tell you, oh, don't be so sensitive. It's just a joke.
(46:46):
then I can quite easily unpack that. Unpack it now. No, there is... Because if you're talking about comedians, comedians, you know, go for shock value, right? Comedians are there to, like... It's normally a twist on something that shouldn't be funny, but you see and you think, oh, I get it, and then, yeah. But, yeah, I...
(47:16):
It's different. Yeah. Why is it different? I'm interested right now. I'm not being funny. And it really depends on the person telling the joke, the person the joke is about. And if you are black, you can say black jokes. That's another thing as well. Or Indian, you can say Indian jokes. If you're Slovakian, we can make fun of our accent, for instance. But if I tell you or someone a black joke...
(47:48):
Is that the right word? Like racist, yeah. When I'm not black, that's not right. Is that right? I hope it's not right. It's, like I said, it's really difficult because there's a guy called, I think...
Is it Gary Oldman? I'll try and get the name and stuff right. And he's this white comedian, but he's predominantly tells jokes about black people and black culture because he's married. He was married to a black woman, has black children, you know, mixed race children.
(48:25):
But he has grown up with, you know, quite predominantly with in a black culture. And if he tells around and says a joke about certain black areas and certain black mannerisms, you know, certain mannerisms and certain things that happen. If anybody else turned around and said this joke.
(48:51):
There would be a complete uproar. But for who he is and the
the journey he's been on, you can see that he has a real absolute respect for the black culture and things. It comes from a place of... Understanding. And love. And love. And absolute love and stuff, because you can see that he connects with the black culture in such a way that when he's turning around and saying these things, you see it and you're like, it's actually quite, it is quite funny, and it's... But...
(49:28):
There's a guy called Roy Chubby Brown or something, and I hate this guy. I can't stand... I think anything that he turns around and says is quite repulsive. And I can quite happily turn around and say, I can't stand this comedian. And he's from... His content or...? His content. He might be a really cool guy, but...
(49:56):
I say that with a little bit of derision and stuff in my voice, but he absolutely could be right. And he comes from an era where it was acceptable to say the jokes and things that he says, and it was seen as funny and it was openly seen as funny. Yeah. And there's people that I know that still find his stuff funny. You know, they, they would look back and think, Oh, you know what? That's actually quite a good one. I listened to it and I'm just like,
(50:25):
Okay. Yeah. We like Kevin Hart. Yeah. But Kevin will turn around and say things that are so out of one, one, one, a comedian who they, they turn around and call the goat and stuff. Dave Chappelle. He absolutely pushes the boundaries of everything, everything like any topic. And he will twist it in a certain way.
(50:55):
Some bits are so hilarious. Some bits you turn around and you think, oh my God, I can't believe you turn around and said what you've just said. But there's an audience and he's so famous. People see him as, you know, one of the greatest comedians and stuff out there of our age and things. Yeah.
(51:17):
But I turn around and say, you know, I find his work quite funny. Some bits I shy away from and think, you can't say. And people obviously do the same thing for Roy Chubby Brown, who, again, I will quite happily say I do not like.
But there's a market for it. That's what I mean. It's so much in there. It's another topic. Exactly. Natalia, tell us. It doesn't have to be racist jokes, but towards certain, maybe religion, skin colour, or culture. Do you used to say this? Or did you used to say or listen to them? All I know is always towards blondes.
(52:03):
Color woman, yeah, blonde, yeah, blonde color hair. What I am thinking about the jokes, I think my opinion about the jokes a little bit has changed over the years because I realized a couple of years ago that there is usually we meet, usually we meet in the circle of the friends or partner or boyfriend or family, a person who always makes a joke of someone or something and
(52:29):
And I realized last year that that person usually has a very low confidence and he needs to belittle someone else. Yeah. If it's too much.
So that's why I am not into the jokes anymore. Like, I think I'm very, like, my friends love me because I'm funny and I think I'm, you know, I'm funny. I am. I don't, I have to, but I don't have to always belittle someone. Yeah. You know, like, it's like a joke, like women can drive and all this stupid because men think they are more, they are better driver. So I, I love jokes.
(53:07):
And I am always having the jokes with my friends and they have like double meanings and everything like, yes, but I don't have to always, it feels for me, it's like I am attacking someone because I used to be with a partner and he always was making the jokes out of me. And I thought it was funny. And I was like in a center of attention, but look at that now. He was only belittling me for his own problem. Yeah.
(53:35):
And I would never maybe allow that again, you know, and it was just, oh, because you are immigrant here. It was kind of the same. Your English is not the best, blah, blah, blah. And it stays in my head. And now when I'm sometimes on social media, it's coming back to me like, oh, maybe I shouldn't do it because my English is not the best.
(53:58):
But, you know, so, yeah, that's why I am very careful with the jokes. I love jokes, but they must have a little bit kind of intelligence. Yeah, just have a little bit. And also, I was going to add that
I remember years ago when my ex-partner told me, you are racist. And I knew deep down I was. And it made me feel angry. And I was like, I'm not. And this is how we grew up in Slovakia. And he was like, you Slovakian are racist. But he was right. But I was angry when he said that because I didn't want to admit. But if somebody would tell me now, I would say, well, I am because blah, blah, blah. And it changed everything.
(54:44):
Because it's like the same if you say to someone that somebody knows some truth about themselves deep down and they know they should maybe change it or maybe they are not happy with it. They are angry. But once you admit something, it's like, oh, fuck, yes, I was. And I'm sorry. And I'm trying to change it. I'm really trying to change it. And every day, like I was at work yesterday and there was, again, black people.
(55:14):
And I was walking, I actually like kind of moved, but I wasn't in a great mood or something. And then I was again, like, why am I moving? They're not going to give me a disease, you know? So it's not just about to admit. It's just, I think it's take the responsibility and step every day, like with every decision in their life and take
(55:38):
just we can change it. It's, we have to start here. And every time if I connect with my heart and myself, I know this is not who I am. This is the voice I was listening to all my life. Yeah. Yeah. And lots of people,
justify their bias by saying it's about how the people behave it's not about the skin color but it's all connected no it's not just it is at the end of the day whether you admit it or not whether directly or indirectly it's just don't be afraid to admit you have I just made a huge confession here so
(56:20):
We both did. And I don't feel I'm a bad person or you, Natalia, because like we said, it's not our fault. But we can take responsibility. Exactly. So I think that's a perfect way to end this episode. I was going to say, I've been to Slovakia, what, four, five, six times, something like that. I've been there quite a few times and I wouldn't say...
(56:51):
I went to Slovakia for the first time and I had the bias that, oh no, they're going to see a black person kind of come in and it's going to be like, if not directly, indirectly, you know, the little, oh my God, you know, the speaking behind the hands and things like this. You know what? I haven't actually had that.
(57:15):
We have curiosity, but that's fine. Yeah. Curious looks, that's absolutely normal. Nothing bad. Yeah. And see, I went with a bias. I went with a bias thinking it would be this way. And I needed to be ready for this or this. In my mind, I was gearing myself up for this. And that's never actually ever materialized. No. No.
(57:43):
So, you know, we all have our biases. We can't help it. There are things that happen and affect our lives and they will naturally have an impact and will naturally cause a certain reaction. But you've hit the head. You can have those moments, but just challenge yourselves to think,
(58:07):
Think from the heart. Think from the heart. Put yourself in that situation. I'm only repeating what Natalia's just said. It's such a good statement. Exactly. So, Natalia, absolutely, again, pat yourself on the back. I don't need, it doesn't need me to kind of turn around and justify what you've said. But I've just heard it and it really rings true that we all need to take a step and
(58:35):
a moment from our hearts and think if I was in that role reversal where would I be yeah yeah what a what a way to start the day isn't it yeah have such such a nice conversation can I go and have lunch now yeah
There is one last topic. No, not topic. Just the last one thing I was going to say. I also think that's very degrading for a black man. You know, the sexual joke is going around about black men. Oh, you mean the size?
(59:10):
Yeah, once you go black, yeah? Yeah, go black. You know, it's like, but I think, like, people think it's funny. Yeah. But it's degrading the honour and the sexuality of black men because it's like we don't see them again through hard and the men, do we just see, like, some kind of need, you know? Like, it was funny years ago, but now I think it's disgusting now.
(59:38):
Oh, yeah. And you know what? Few people ask me if that's true when I started dating you. I never ask you. I'm going to ask you after. I'm going to message you later. No, it's like one of my friends advised, when someone asks you that, tell them, did you see me walking funny? Oh, my God.
(01:00:05):
You know, it's funny, I think, until a certain moment, but it's like, if I would be as a white woman constantly having a joke about... Size of your... Which there is a lot of behind. We don't have to go into this topic today. But if I would live in this, you know, I don't know how to say...
(01:00:32):
Anyway, if people were talking about me, how is this going to bring... Yeah, what do you believe in about yourself? And this is all this is like people, many people see like black person or sport. He must do sports. No, he must be a runner. He must be whatever. Yeah. But it's nothing wrong with that. It's just, you know, you put labels on white people in a certain way, I'm sure as well. So...
(01:00:59):
Just before we go, can I just turn around and say there's still a lot of love for Kevin Hart, Dave Chappelle and other comedians. And if you need a second to kind of think with your heart and take a moment before you say some of the jokes...
(01:01:21):
contact us and Roy Chubby Brown I'm here for you whenever you need a hand or need help with moving things forward thank you sorry don't say sorry that was brilliant it was from your heart so here we go you're practicing already
(01:01:49):
if we all connected to our hearts what kind of crap would we come up with sometimes it's the best time to finish connect with your heart but not too much take your mind with you
(01:02:10):
So thank you, thank you, thank you, Natalia. This was wow. Amazing, as you always say. But it was. And if you enjoyed this episode, dear listener, please leave us a review, share the episode far and wide, because I believe this one especially deserves acknowledgement and sharing. Much love to you and see you in two weeks.
because our twins are in Slovakia with my mom and we only have one child who is in the nursery now. So we actually had the chance and time to do this during the day. It's so cool, isn't it? This is annual leave. Yay. Maybe when we have a sponsor. No pressure there.
(03:27):
then we can pay someone to watch the kids while we record, even when the twins are here, so we don't have to rely on the evenings. So we can generate a better content
you know, and bring more value to the people. So if you want to sponsor us, just feel free to reach out. So we can get childminder. Okay, good one. How sad is this? No, it's cool. This is the natural transition of a podcast. Yes, exactly. And then we can get a second mic maybe.
(04:03):
we will get a second mic before the next our next we've been doing this for over a year and where are we still a kitchen kitchen table it's just like you hear all this that's actually that is actually um podcast a real podcast is kitchen you know dining table and that type of thing yeah what kind of videos are you watching
(04:28):
So I see all these stories where after one year we already have a studio and we earn £10,000 per month and I was like, ooh, okay. So no pressure, but if you or anyone you know would like to support our amazing podcast or our family, feel free. We're open to any suggestions. Yes. On that note...
(05:01):
On that note, maybe this is not the best topic if you want to look for sponsors, is it? No, but today we have... Actually, it sounds like a deep topic, but it doesn't have to be. It depends on how we approach it, right? I don't know how I'll actually call the episode yet officially, but our work title is I used to be a racist and I'm not anymore or why I'm not anymore.
(05:28):
But we'll see how the chat goes. I might change the title if we divert. You never know. And we are speaking to an amazing lady and my friend from primary school, Natalia. Oh, sounds sexy when I say it with this accent. And she very bravely offered to talk to us on this subject.
(05:55):
And it's something I can relate to myself. I'm very open about it. So it's a bit funny talking about us being racist or used to being racist while having a black guy sitting next to me. But let's see how that goes. Even going as far as having a black guy being married to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that goes without saying, no? Yeah, okay. So it's quite funny. Anyway, so hi, Natalia. Hi, everyone. How are you? You look gorgeous.
(06:26):
Thank you so much. I'm also sorry for you guys that you don't see her. But yeah, she looks amazing, glowing, happy. Are you feeling that way or is it just a lie? No, actually, I feel that way today. That's amazing. I often feel like crap and people say, oh, you look great. And I'm like, really? Yeah.
(06:48):
And vice versa, sometimes I feel great and people are like, oh, did you, there's something to, you know, no, there's nothing. You put on weight or something. So I hinted what we're going to talk about or hinted, I just said it. And I don't know where to start, to be honest with you, because we both know what we want to say.
(07:12):
We both know what this is about. But where do we start? What do we mean by I used to be racist? Because to be honest, I'm not sure if this is something you can overcome fully. I said in one of the previous episodes that I am conscious of my own bias that I still have. And it's not something...
(07:34):
It's not a bad thing because I think people sometimes are worried to admit they have bias or prejudice because they feel they would be bad people. But this is the result of our upbringing, especially in our country, Slovakia. We have a thing about, should I say gypsies or Romanians? Romanians, what's better? Romanians. Yes, Romanians. And we were raised...
(08:05):
So people around us would plant these little seeds, like, oh, wash your hands when you get off the bus. Wash your hands because gypsies or Romanians were touching the poles. All these little, little, there are so many. If you can remember some, just feel free to share. So, of course, when you grow up with this thinking,
(08:28):
then of course it impacts you. How can it not? So it's not our fault. And like I said, we had that with Romanians, but it does impact other races as well. So even now I'm aware that if I see a brown person sometimes, the thoughts that pop in my head, I'm like, oh my God. And I've had them my whole life. The problem was I wasn't aware of it and I would even...
(08:58):
What's the word? I would deny that I had bias or I had some issues. I would say, no, me, I have friends who are black. I have friends who are, you know, Romanians. And many people think that this is the case. If you have friends or people you love, of course, you can't have bias.
(09:24):
This is my point, our point today, that you can and you do most likely if you're white. And we want to prove it to you. Just like I'm going around, you know, and I'm just proving to white people, you have bias.
uh, I often have discussions with my family and it's, it's a, it's a huge thing because it took me years to understand that this is actually the case. Yeah. Um, but yeah, tell me your experience. Let's start with our upbringing in Slovakia and all these Romanian things. So how do you remember it? You growing up? Yeah. Um,
(10:05):
My story is nearly like yours, yeah? So when we were kids, exactly, Romanians are dirty. They smell. They have a sickness. They are disgusting. They just, you know, they are not normal human beings. They are like something less. Like insects, you know? Some people would say insects. It's like, it's just a belief that it's actually written in your brain that
(10:36):
They are just not the same as us. And I, you know, yes, there are a few people, Romanians in Slovakia, they live that way. They live in a village with the rats and all of this. But it doesn't mean that they are not human. They are not people, you know. So, yeah, my story is the same. And I didn't realize that maybe until last year, when I'm 41, that how much I was...
(11:07):
- Bias? - Yeah. And I was gonna say that how much I feed the hatred towards brown, black people in my heart. And it has changed a lot. - So what happened? When did you realize this? - I think it's last maybe couple of years because I am doing, you know, the psychophonetics counseling and our teacher always teaching us, look at everyone and look at your client through your heart.
(11:41):
So I started to realize last year, if I have a client like that or a client with this issue or this issue, it doesn't matter. Look at him through your heart. So a few months ago, and it's not just with the black people. It was also like different things. I realized it. Why can I not see them, you know, differently? Why can I not look at them through different lens?
(12:10):
So a few months ago, yeah, it was a big turning point for me. And I realized I don't want to be racist anymore. It's not fair because they are the same people like we are. Yeah. And it's just, yeah, it's, I feel like more freedom and yeah. And I just, I just feel, I just feel that it's not fair for them because many of us live like that. Yeah. Yeah.
(12:41):
I think you meant, sorry, I've got the croaky voice and stuff in the morning. This whole topic that, you know, we're talking about here, people can come and listen to this and they can turn around and pick tiny little things and stuff here, there and everywhere. But this is such a major topic to be able to kind of come onto here and be open.
(13:12):
And, you know, you don't know the backlash and stuff that some of these things and stuff can kind of, but be open and courageous enough to turn around and say what you're saying. It's a really, really big thing to do.
and it takes that courage it really does take that courage to understand and say look I'm this and we've all absolutely every single one of us have got something that we're biased about because it's just a natural thing that we would have had impressions on us as we've grown if you're young certain things that
(13:50):
And it could be tiny things that are said that, you know, obviously turn around and affect our way of thinking to a certain extent. But over a period of time, like you're saying, it took something that was outside of your, and I'm not saying it has to be something outside of your normal kind of day to day, but something happened that affected you. And then you made a choice. You made a choice to turn around and think about it. You know, people can still have the facts in front of them.
(14:20):
And still decide, you know what, it's easier for me to just carry on being the way that I am and just go on. Because life is easier that way. It takes a big thing to turn around and put the mirror up to yourself and look at yourself and turn around and say, look,
Yeah, this isn't quite right. Let me look into it. Yeah, you can be very proud of yourself. Absolutely. And me, you didn't say me. Anybody, anybody, everybody, everybody who takes that, yeah, everybody should kind of, you know, pat themselves on the back and things and think, you know what, if I'm making conscious efforts...
(14:59):
to try and better myself in any way, not just on the racist side of things, but in any way, you're taking positive steps and you think, you know what, I am trying. Why is that not a bad thing? Yeah. Understanding where you are, where you may have been. Yeah. Is something and you're moving forward.
(15:20):
Who's anybody else to turn around and say you're this or that? You should be proud of yourselves. If you carry on, even more. Yeah.
Oh, now I forgot what I wanted to say. Did I talk too long? Too much, yeah. Yeah. That's all right. I have that thing, don't I? It was nice. Go on, you go, Natalia. I can add on something that I'm just also see this situation as a mother that if my daughter would play with the black child, yeah, I...
(15:53):
I don't think I would ever say that, you know, don't play with him or her, but maybe there would be this idea like, what is the family and, you know, where are they coming from? But yeah, and it is, of course, three of us or two, like Ivka, me and you, like it is brave to admit that because I can see some of the faces in my family, like, you know, what is she talking about? And because
(16:20):
People don't want to admit. People will be like, oh, that's not true. And they are dirty, blah, blah, blah. But it doesn't have to be this way. So, yes. So me as a mother thinking, I don't think I would ever really judge. And I would never say my daughter don't be a friend with a girl like that. But it's now. I don't know how my opinion, what my opinion would be 10 years ago. But it never happened before.
(16:48):
But it's still happening. And then I see how this hatred goes through the parents to the child. And they don't see that it's just repeating the pattern. It's like with religion and everything. It's just we have so much hate in this world already. And the...
(17:12):
the things happening with immigrants and everything, I think made it worse because I think it's like bringing more, we have to hate them because this is what they are doing. Like, I'm not saying what is right or wrong, but I see, I see there is behind it something like, oh, we should just hate them more. And, you know, and it's just, I think if everybody would change just little bit of their opinion, um,
(17:43):
It could be just different. Yeah. It's a hard topic, isn't it? Oh, yeah. And I wondered, you know what most people say in our country about Romanians, that it's not that we don't like them or hate them, it's
their behavior. So they are stealing, they are killing. Yeah. So it's our experience that created this hatred. It's not their color, the color of the skin. Yeah. What do you think of that? This again, it's a difficult way to go because you, you, I can't think that you can just start from your experience because if you
(18:28):
You're talking about, and I'm not right in how I'm doing this. I don't have a thing in, I don't know, psychology or, you know, human behaviours. Just get to the point. You don't need the degree is my point. No, the point that I was trying to make was...
there's, it's been happening, it could have been happening for generations. So there's the socio economic side of things where if you said at one point, certain Romanians were given certain kind of bits of land or buildings or certain things where they should have been able to have done something with it. But
(19:14):
If you give something, it's like, you know, give a fish to someone, you feed them for a day, but then give them the tools and stuff and teach them how to fish and you feed them for a lifetime. It's that same thing. If you turn around and act a certain way to people and then afterwards you don't change, you've just given them something, they're still fighting against a whole societal kind of thing
(19:41):
of people still viewing them and judging them in a certain way. So anytime that they jump on a bus or anytime that they, they go to school or sometimes anytime that they try to do something to progress in a certain way, they go for a job, they go for this, they do that.
And they're hitting brick walls and you're hitting brick walls, brick walls, brick walls. And it's not to excuse when somebody does something wrong. But if that's the only if you found that your kids are hungry and the only way to feed them was to do something not great. Yeah. Why wouldn't you do that? I'm not going to sit there while my kids starving or whatever and things.
(20:28):
Because somebody else has decided, I can't have this. I can't have a bank account. I can't turn around and get the job that I was really, you know, my mindset was I'm going to be different from others.
And I want to turn around and do this and be productive. And, and again, everything that we say here, it's, it can't be a generalization because not everybody is like this, but if you have those moments and those people understand that this is the kind of rejection that I'm going to get, I'm going to do what I need to do to make sure that my family survive. And when you're talking about immigration there and stuff, Natalia, yeah,
(21:08):
if my my children and my family are in danger why would I not want to be in a situation where they're safer even if you had the the situation where you go somewhere where people seems like they hate you and things I can deal with your words and stuff if I know with my family are going to be you know I'm not going to be bombed I'm not going to be killed I'm not going to be you know
(21:34):
absolute dire things that if you put yourself in the mind of the person or the family you're there what would you honestly look to do in that situation yeah yeah it's easy for people to say and i hate it what do you see natalia when people say oh i hate immigrants because then there is say in england yeah because then there is lots of foreigners not enough english people anymore how how horrible is that isn't it
(22:02):
I would say one thing blame the government don't blame the people like this is very brave statement but I'm sorry you know they should prepare for it more you can expect when it's going to happen prepare for it rather than you know not everybody has the right reasons you know
(22:33):
There's good and bad in anything and everything that we do. But you can't turn around and tell me that a family who's starving, who, what, they somehow get over, they get a chance, and they don't get over with, they're paying people, right? They're probably somehow collating some sort of money or whatever to get over. These things aren't cheap.
(22:59):
They're not like, you know, you give me a pound or you give me a dollar or you give me a euro and I'll take you over. They're having to kind of put tens of thousands of pounds and stuff together to somehow get over to do what they need to do. And in most cases...
Look at the UK. We're a multicultural society that have been built over so many centuries with immigrants. Who here is English? Mm-hmm.
(23:31):
realistically you go back far enough we've all come from somewhere and we've all this is what gets to me the you're going to start me off and things this this is what gets to me you know we have a guest here right sorry but this what what really gets to me is we the english have gone everywhere
(23:53):
America isn't America. They're not natives. They've come from America. You go to Australia. They're not the natives of that land. They're English, you know, and there are other countries and stuff that have gone. People have emigrated to other places and taken control. And you turn around and have this conversation that we don't want. If you go back far enough and everybody was to suddenly go back to where they were, what would this place look like? Where would other places look like?
(24:22):
you can't, I hate this conversation. I hate, it's an easy, it's an easy topic to kind of point at people coming in, taking our jobs, taking our women, you know, you know, it's such, and it's been done so many, so many times over and over.
(24:45):
Okay. You, you probably want to talk because otherwise I'll, I'll just get heated. But can black people have bias as well? Everybody has bias to a certain extent. Um, you'll have, you may have in, in my country, there's, there's, there's always been a thinking that if you, um, if you, if you get married, look to have somebody. So my heritage is Ghanaian. Um,
(25:15):
If I look to get married, I should probably look for someone who has a similar culture, similar kind of background, because it means that the way that you is is a kind of thing of it's likely that they might have similar kind of upbringing, you know, and we were talking about how our parents kind of come in.
(25:35):
I've clearly not that... You know, I find someone who I care about and someone who I know cares about me is more than enough for my life. Right? And clearly that's you if you just... After 10 years, do you still think this? After yesterday, we had a bit of a fight. So, yes, I still do think that, but don't worry. Maybe this bit will be edited out. No, I just...
(26:06):
It's everybody has a certain level of bias. My my dad came over. Sorry if I kind of rattling on a little bit. But when my dad came from Ghana and, you know, we've got wind rush where a lot of Caribbean's, you know, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, a lot of members came from their native land. You say native, but from their countries to here.
(26:34):
And you tell me that if you come somewhere and you can see quite clearly in like, say, boarding rooms and things like this, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. How does that not affect you? How can you turn around? And, you know, you've been fed stories of, oh, it's a promised land. It's this, it's that.
(27:01):
And you can see quite openly such racist things. And I'm not saying it's exactly the same and stuff now. That's not what, but you can't have those kind of things impacting you and turn around and say that doesn't affect you in any way, because you want your child to make sure that they don't go through anything similar to what you've been through. So you say to them, oh, you know what?
(27:29):
if you stay within your culture you're probably not going to face as much kind of hatred or impact and stuff from other people because people still judge you go certain places and me and you together they see a black and white woman together some people will judge and it all they may get to know us and think oh you know what actually
(27:55):
They're lovely. They're really nice people. That black guy, he's a really nice bloke and stuff. And I sound good because I talk the Queen's English to a certain extent. So I'm okay. Oh, he's all right. He's fine. He's one of the good ones. There's a million of the good ones. You know, there's a million of us who have interracial marriages, partnerships, you know, relationships.
(28:25):
We're good. We just need to kind of step outside of our own comfort zones and just have a little bit of a look. Go back to Natalia because you're talking way too much. I would like to know, Natalia, what thoughts did you catch yourself thinking that, you know, took you by surprise? Yeah. I was thinking about that, you know, the hatred thing.
(28:55):
every time we judge someone or we hate someone it's always come back to us yeah and so it's like yeah I see this damaging to each of us when we do it it doesn't matter if it's black people is it somebody with blue hair doesn't matter and what I was thinking that I see I think black people already live with I would say with the fear and shame and being judged um
(29:28):
So I actually, it was maybe a month ago, I saw somebody different color, yes, and my first, very first second idea, I was like, you know, and then I actually stuck myself on. I was like, this person is probably being judged and maybe living a fear and maybe walking between white people already feeling like he is or she is less. I was like,
(29:52):
Why would I do that? But it was one second and I stopped. And I just caught myself. I don't have to be part of this. And then also what came to my mind was how many people would judge people from Africa or whatever. But how many people go and say, oh, African people have amazing tribes and they have amazing culture and they are connected to the nature. Like,
(30:21):
choose your side then you know because because they you know they are connected to this and this and oh we should be like them and we should you know you see the women um naked breastfeeding and whatever and we many uh people would admire that what not many but maybe like holistic way people would admire that but the same time they think like oh i would never live there and
(30:45):
you know yeah yeah it's uh what is the hypocrite hypocrite yeah yeah by the way sorry i have a water here okay it's all right you can drink you're allowed yeah it's absolutely fine all good we do have water as well actually i'm gonna have a sip myself so yeah so uh another thing uh what was it just uh oh
(31:18):
I'm just waiting. This will be cut out, this waiting. But it has to come back because it was good. Hold on. No pressure. Sorry. Can I? No, say first. You're the guest, so I'll be nice. Whatever, thank you. No, I was just going to say, I also admire Yao sitting here and it must be so difficult to listen to this and be a part of this. You had to overcome a lot of
(31:54):
I don't know, like, I would say you have so much strength to sit here and talk about that also. It's not just us to deny it, but you being in the position we talk about, like, wow. Like, I admire you for this, yo. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm not going to lie. When Ivanka mentioned the topic, I was like, oh, here we go. But I get it. I get it.
(32:27):
It needs to be talked about. How do we change things if we don't talk about it? Yeah, exactly. The openness, the courage. If one person turns around and says, okay, I kind of get it. I'll try and do something. That's amazing. That means, you know, the ripple, the butterfly ripple effect has kind of kicked in. Yeah. I was going to say that what I see very often is white people saying,
(32:58):
Oh, black people. And I was one of them. So no judgment there. They are so sensitive and so... What's the word? Paranoid. Because when I have a bad approach to them or I just accidentally maybe say something and they're all immediately, oh, is that because I'm black? And you don't think about it as a white person unless you're in that world. It's like, what? Of course not. Oh,
(33:29):
Someone said to me that when they were in the US, they didn't want to shake a black person's hand because their head was dirty. I mean, the white person's head was dirty. So they didn't want to make the black person. They worked in the kitchen. And when they refused to give him the hand, the black person right away said, oh, is that because I'm black? Yeah. So.
(33:52):
And they were like, what? Like, you're so paranoid, you're sensitive. But I understand that now, if you live with that your whole life, it's like us, for instance, sometimes we, us people, like me and Natalia, living in a foreign country, we sometimes feel that we're treated differently as foreigners. So it's the same thing. Or women, you know, and their rights, like...
(34:15):
You have all the rights to think sometimes you are paid less maybe because you're a woman. Yeah. So I don't see how that is different in any way. It's different forms, but I understand where you're coming from and things. Yeah. If you're judged...
(34:35):
because of, I don't know, again, I'm not perfect in this. No, because you don't have these reactions, but I understand if people do. Yeah, absolutely. If you feel that you're getting a reaction because of a certain something, that happens again and again and again. It's not a, oh, what was that? I'm not quite sure. But when things start repeating themselves and you've had them, like you were mentioning there, Natalia,
(35:03):
thank you when you were saying about, you know, the repeat, the repetitiveness of certain things that I've experienced and stuff in my life or in our lives in certain way, they have an effect. They, they impact how you are. And, you know, yeah, it's just, it's, it's a difficult one. Yeah. And I, I want to say one example, for instance. Yeah. So people understand what I'm talking about. Maybe a bit more, but,
(35:32):
We ordered, what was it, Chinese, I think, takeaway. And we were waiting and then someone knocked on the door and opened half an hour late. And I thought, oh, that must be the delivery. I opened the door and there was a brown, maybe Pakistan woman.
with a scarf on her head. I could just see the eyes and some back. I was like, oh my goodness, a beggar. That was my first thought, yeah? That's a beggar and now she's going to ask for money. That's going to be awkward, yeah? And then I was looking at her, waiting, and I said, can I help you? And she says, you ordered a delivery, right? I was like, oh, okay. So these little things, yeah, and I realized, oh my God, it didn't even occur to me this lady could actually be a delivery lady. Yeah? Yeah.
(36:19):
um do you have any example like that natalia yeah i was just gonna tell you it happened to me last week because i am moving the house so there is like um on facebook there is a page you can give like whatever for free and people would come and collect like really literally anything what you don't need so yeah i had there like few few things and um
(36:42):
It was actually this woman, it was a black woman. She messaged me if she can collect the table. And I was like, of course, but the first, again, the first second of like, you know, are they going to be okay? Blah, blah, blah. So she came, she parked in front of my house with her husband and I just opened the door and I was like, just come in because the table is really heavy. And they were really surprised. Like, we can come in? And I was like, of course. And then another thing happened.
(37:12):
And I was really so emotional because they left their shoes in front of the house. People in Ireland walk everywhere, yeah? Or maybe in England, like they don't take the shoes off. They left the shoes in front of the house. And so humble couple came and took the table and told me maybe 15 times, thank you, thank you, thank you.
(37:36):
And I was just looking and I said, like, thank you so much also for taking it because, you know, I don't have to get rid of it. And then I said, also, thank you for taking your shoes off because this is what we do in Slovakia. And they were so lovely and kind people. So they left and I was actually feeling like,
Those people are so humble and lovely. And half an hour later, they sent me a picture from their living room that the table has a new home. And I was like, they were so like kind. And it was like, it was a really good experience for me to see that, you know,
(38:16):
the first reaction when I said like come inside the house they were like you know because maybe most of the people would say like there's your table you know go away and I was like no just come in like you know what's the problem so it was really lovely for me to see that they were surprised and I was surprised at how it touched them but they touched me also yeah oh you know what I just realized if I had
(38:43):
a black person message me on Facebook marketplace I would be a bit like as well you know and this is my point so I'm not that bad you married black man I know but that's why I'm saying this you can like when people say I'm not racist because I have a friend who is black makes my blood boil yeah now because I probably used to say the same thing
(39:13):
You can marry a black person, you can have black kids and still have that little racist in you. It's very hard to say that. But it is what it is. I know it's not my fault. I'm not doing that on purpose. It's wired in our brains, the way we were raised. When you hear something, the whole childhood story.
(39:39):
You hear lots of hate about people. We didn't hear anything about black people in particular, but it does impact. You are brown, you are whatever, you are bad. You are something we need to get rid of. This is what people were saying. We need to... Where they live, there should be a bomb. Someone should drop a bomb there and things like that. And as a child, when you hear this...
(40:07):
what, you know, beliefs will you have? I don't know what to say. That's a lot to unpack. Yeah. It's like, for me, it's the same pattern. If you would hear from your mum, you are not handy, you are ugly, everything you touched, you drop off, blah, blah, blah. It's the same belief. It's the same. You have to, I think, become an adult and take responsibility for
(40:37):
in your own mind and subconscious to, if you want to change it, it's like really with everything what is written from the childhood. It's like you said, I don't say that I never ever will judge or maybe there won't be this second of, oh, they are different, they are dirty, they are coming from blah, blah, blah. But it's just catch it and go through this and realize like, why I don't want to do it anymore because I,
(41:06):
They might not even know it, but it's not healthy for my internal, you know, for my soul. Yeah. That's what we need to do if we want to change things. Stop denying them and just admit, okay, I have bias. I have a little racism in me or whatever. That's what brings the change, not by putting our heads in the sand. What do you think, Jao?
(41:37):
It's just, yeah, I, I already, my, my thinking is, I think I mentioned it before is people can come onto this or listen to this and have quick judgments. And if you do that, then you need, you really need to put the, the mirror up to yourself because the quick judgments don't help you don't help.
(42:08):
society don't help anybody what you need to kind of do is turn around and think what do i have that i can work on and that's that's it we all have something yeah not just turn around and go you pick you know you can pick through things and go oh they said this or they did that or they their stance was this or whatever but so did you i would say we all do exactly bad stuff
(42:36):
But the challenge is what can we do in each of us to move forward in a positive way? Yes. No, I love it. It's really hard to listen to some of the things that have been said, but it's very empowering to hear some of the things that are being said because people will not have these conversations. And it's just good to, yeah, it's just positive. It really is.
(43:06):
I like this. Do you still love me? Yeah, we're alright. Alright? You're still friends, yeah. No, of course I love you. Talking about this, talking about this, since actually, even if I didn't realise I'd been a racist, but there was always one thing I was always jealous of for every time I saw a mixed...
(43:36):
you know black and white child mixed race girl with a beautiful curly hair and I was like I would love to have a girl like that but then there was a part of me I don't want a man like that but now maybe I would actually they think I'm actually but we are such people in some way
(44:05):
Sorry. It's so good. It's so good. I mean, yeah, I love this conversation. To talk, to be open, it's
It really is the only way that we have a real chance of making a real change in stuff in life. Yeah. There was just one more thing I wanted to touch on is racist jokes. Okay. You want me out of this one? No, no, no, no Slovakian jokes, racist jokes in particular. So an example from our relationship. Yeah.
(44:39):
So I don't know why I thought it was a great idea to tell you some of the racist jokes when we started dating. Yeah. Yes, I used to say racist jokes. I'm not proud of it. But yeah, anyway.
I don't know any of racist jokes. I don't know any. Really? You don't know them from Slovakia. You feel like you're in the spotlight now, do you? No, but I can edit this out, so it's all good. So I was telling you something, and to me it was a completely harmless joke. I don't want to say towards what religion, in particular this one was,
(45:21):
And you told me like, but don't say this out loud in front of people. Yeah. And I was like, why? It's harmless. I don't mean it. I don't hate these people. It's just a joke. But now I understand. It took me years again. Thanks to you, daddy. Okay. That it's not harmless at all because...
(45:47):
Yeah, it's not harmless because when someone hears it or when you say it over and over, it does impact the way you see the world and how you react to certain things. It's like I say, subconscious doesn't have a sense of humor, right? So even if you mean it as a joke, it does leave a mark or imprint on your subconscious in one way or another.
(46:13):
This is a whole new session. No, because lots of... No, it's not. It's not, because lots of people say these jokes, even to me, thinking it's funny to tell me racist jokes now towards black people, yeah? And they think, oh, it's just a joke. It's harmless. I'm not racist, yeah? But... Ask them to tell me the jokes. Let's see. Let's enjoy this joke together. And they... You know how many will tell you, oh, don't be so sensitive. It's just a joke.
(46:46):
then I can quite easily unpack that. Unpack it now. No, there is... Because if you're talking about comedians, comedians, you know, go for shock value, right? Comedians are there to, like... It's normally a twist on something that shouldn't be funny, but you see and you think, oh, I get it, and then, yeah. But, yeah, I...
(47:16):
It's different. Yeah. Why is it different? I'm interested right now. I'm not being funny. And it really depends on the person telling the joke, the person the joke is about. And if you are black, you can say black jokes. That's another thing as well. Or Indian, you can say Indian jokes. If you're Slovakian, we can make fun of our accent, for instance. But if I tell you or someone a black joke...
(47:48):
Is that the right word? Like racist, yeah. When I'm not black, that's not right. Is that right? I hope it's not right. It's, like I said, it's really difficult because there's a guy called, I think...
Is it Gary Oldman? I'll try and get the name and stuff right. And he's this white comedian, but he's predominantly tells jokes about black people and black culture because he's married. He was married to a black woman, has black children, you know, mixed race children.
(48:25):
But he has grown up with, you know, quite predominantly with in a black culture. And if he tells around and says a joke about certain black areas and certain black mannerisms, you know, certain mannerisms and certain things that happen. If anybody else turned around and said this joke.
(48:51):
There would be a complete uproar. But for who he is and the
the journey he's been on, you can see that he has a real absolute respect for the black culture and things. It comes from a place of... Understanding. And love. And love. And absolute love and stuff, because you can see that he connects with the black culture in such a way that when he's turning around and saying these things, you see it and you're like, it's actually quite, it is quite funny, and it's... But...
(49:28):
There's a guy called Roy Chubby Brown or something, and I hate this guy. I can't stand... I think anything that he turns around and says is quite repulsive. And I can quite happily turn around and say, I can't stand this comedian. And he's from... His content or...? His content. He might be a really cool guy, but...
(49:56):
I say that with a little bit of derision and stuff in my voice, but he absolutely could be right. And he comes from an era where it was acceptable to say the jokes and things that he says, and it was seen as funny and it was openly seen as funny. Yeah. And there's people that I know that still find his stuff funny. You know, they, they would look back and think, Oh, you know what? That's actually quite a good one. I listened to it and I'm just like,
(50:25):
Okay. Yeah. We like Kevin Hart. Yeah. But Kevin will turn around and say things that are so out of one, one, one, a comedian who they, they turn around and call the goat and stuff. Dave Chappelle. He absolutely pushes the boundaries of everything, everything like any topic. And he will twist it in a certain way.
(50:55):
Some bits are so hilarious. Some bits you turn around and you think, oh my God, I can't believe you turn around and said what you've just said. But there's an audience and he's so famous. People see him as, you know, one of the greatest comedians and stuff out there of our age and things. Yeah.
(51:17):
But I turn around and say, you know, I find his work quite funny. Some bits I shy away from and think, you can't say. And people obviously do the same thing for Roy Chubby Brown, who, again, I will quite happily say I do not like.
But there's a market for it. That's what I mean. It's so much in there. It's another topic. Exactly. Natalia, tell us. It doesn't have to be racist jokes, but towards certain, maybe religion, skin colour, or culture. Do you used to say this? Or did you used to say or listen to them? All I know is always towards blondes.
(52:03):
Color woman, yeah, blonde, yeah, blonde color hair. What I am thinking about the jokes, I think my opinion about the jokes a little bit has changed over the years because I realized a couple of years ago that there is usually we meet, usually we meet in the circle of the friends or partner or boyfriend or family, a person who always makes a joke of someone or something and
(52:29):
And I realized last year that that person usually has a very low confidence and he needs to belittle someone else. Yeah. If it's too much.
So that's why I am not into the jokes anymore. Like, I think I'm very, like, my friends love me because I'm funny and I think I'm, you know, I'm funny. I am. I don't, I have to, but I don't have to always belittle someone. Yeah. You know, like, it's like a joke, like women can drive and all this stupid because men think they are more, they are better driver. So I, I love jokes.
(53:07):
And I am always having the jokes with my friends and they have like double meanings and everything like, yes, but I don't have to always, it feels for me, it's like I am attacking someone because I used to be with a partner and he always was making the jokes out of me. And I thought it was funny. And I was like in a center of attention, but look at that now. He was only belittling me for his own problem. Yeah.
(53:35):
And I would never maybe allow that again, you know, and it was just, oh, because you are immigrant here. It was kind of the same. Your English is not the best, blah, blah, blah. And it stays in my head. And now when I'm sometimes on social media, it's coming back to me like, oh, maybe I shouldn't do it because my English is not the best.
(53:58):
But, you know, so, yeah, that's why I am very careful with the jokes. I love jokes, but they must have a little bit kind of intelligence. Yeah, just have a little bit. And also, I was going to add that
I remember years ago when my ex-partner told me, you are racist. And I knew deep down I was. And it made me feel angry. And I was like, I'm not. And this is how we grew up in Slovakia. And he was like, you Slovakian are racist. But he was right. But I was angry when he said that because I didn't want to admit. But if somebody would tell me now, I would say, well, I am because blah, blah, blah. And it changed everything.
(54:44):
Because it's like the same if you say to someone that somebody knows some truth about themselves deep down and they know they should maybe change it or maybe they are not happy with it. They are angry. But once you admit something, it's like, oh, fuck, yes, I was. And I'm sorry. And I'm trying to change it. I'm really trying to change it. And every day, like I was at work yesterday and there was, again, black people.
(55:14):
And I was walking, I actually like kind of moved, but I wasn't in a great mood or something. And then I was again, like, why am I moving? They're not going to give me a disease, you know? So it's not just about to admit. It's just, I think it's take the responsibility and step every day, like with every decision in their life and take
(55:38):
just we can change it. It's, we have to start here. And every time if I connect with my heart and myself, I know this is not who I am. This is the voice I was listening to all my life. Yeah. Yeah. And lots of people,
justify their bias by saying it's about how the people behave it's not about the skin color but it's all connected no it's not just it is at the end of the day whether you admit it or not whether directly or indirectly it's just don't be afraid to admit you have I just made a huge confession here so
(56:20):
We both did. And I don't feel I'm a bad person or you, Natalia, because like we said, it's not our fault. But we can take responsibility. Exactly. So I think that's a perfect way to end this episode. I was going to say, I've been to Slovakia, what, four, five, six times, something like that. I've been there quite a few times and I wouldn't say...
(56:51):
I went to Slovakia for the first time and I had the bias that, oh no, they're going to see a black person kind of come in and it's going to be like, if not directly, indirectly, you know, the little, oh my God, you know, the speaking behind the hands and things like this. You know what? I haven't actually had that.
(57:15):
We have curiosity, but that's fine. Yeah. Curious looks, that's absolutely normal. Nothing bad. Yeah. And see, I went with a bias. I went with a bias thinking it would be this way. And I needed to be ready for this or this. In my mind, I was gearing myself up for this. And that's never actually ever materialized. No. No.
(57:43):
So, you know, we all have our biases. We can't help it. There are things that happen and affect our lives and they will naturally have an impact and will naturally cause a certain reaction. But you've hit the head. You can have those moments, but just challenge yourselves to think,
(58:07):
Think from the heart. Think from the heart. Put yourself in that situation. I'm only repeating what Natalia's just said. It's such a good statement. Exactly. So, Natalia, absolutely, again, pat yourself on the back. I don't need, it doesn't need me to kind of turn around and justify what you've said. But I've just heard it and it really rings true that we all need to take a step and
(58:35):
a moment from our hearts and think if I was in that role reversal where would I be yeah yeah what a what a way to start the day isn't it yeah have such such a nice conversation can I go and have lunch now yeah
There is one last topic. No, not topic. Just the last one thing I was going to say. I also think that's very degrading for a black man. You know, the sexual joke is going around about black men. Oh, you mean the size?
(59:10):
Yeah, once you go black, yeah? Yeah, go black. You know, it's like, but I think, like, people think it's funny. Yeah. But it's degrading the honour and the sexuality of black men because it's like we don't see them again through hard and the men, do we just see, like, some kind of need, you know? Like, it was funny years ago, but now I think it's disgusting now.
(59:38):
Oh, yeah. And you know what? Few people ask me if that's true when I started dating you. I never ask you. I'm going to ask you after. I'm going to message you later. No, it's like one of my friends advised, when someone asks you that, tell them, did you see me walking funny? Oh, my God.
(01:00:05):
You know, it's funny, I think, until a certain moment, but it's like, if I would be as a white woman constantly having a joke about... Size of your... Which there is a lot of behind. We don't have to go into this topic today. But if I would live in this, you know, I don't know how to say...
(01:00:32):
Anyway, if people were talking about me, how is this going to bring... Yeah, what do you believe in about yourself? And this is all this is like people, many people see like black person or sport. He must do sports. No, he must be a runner. He must be whatever. Yeah. But it's nothing wrong with that. It's just, you know, you put labels on white people in a certain way, I'm sure as well. So...
(01:00:59):
Just before we go, can I just turn around and say there's still a lot of love for Kevin Hart, Dave Chappelle and other comedians. And if you need a second to kind of think with your heart and take a moment before you say some of the jokes...
(01:01:21):
contact us and Roy Chubby Brown I'm here for you whenever you need a hand or need help with moving things forward thank you sorry don't say sorry that was brilliant it was from your heart so here we go you're practicing already
(01:01:49):
if we all connected to our hearts what kind of crap would we come up with sometimes it's the best time to finish connect with your heart but not too much take your mind with you
(01:02:10):
So thank you, thank you, thank you, Natalia. This was wow. Amazing, as you always say. But it was. And if you enjoyed this episode, dear listener, please leave us a review, share the episode far and wide, because I believe this one especially deserves acknowledgement and sharing. Much love to you and see you in two weeks.
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