September 3, 2025 • 53 mins
What happens when love meets culture?
In this episode of Life in Black & White, we chat with Dr. Melissa Cancel about how cultural differences shape marriage, communication, and even parenting.
From individualism vs collectivism to those “lost in translation” moments in everyday conversations, we explore why understanding (not judging) each other’s backgrounds is so important.
Expect honest stories, practical tips, and plenty of encouragement for couples navigating cultural diversity.
With love,
Ivana & Yaw
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:40):
Hello my friend and welcome back to the podcast Life in Black and White. I'm trying to think about something unique to say because I don't want to say the same thing all the time that Jao is here as well, but he is. So hi Jao. How are you doing? How are you doing? Tell us. I'm good. I'm good. Everything good on your side? Yes. You look very handsome.
(01:06):
Oh wow, thank you. It's alright. Do you realize we have our anniversary coming up? Our 10th anniversary? Yes. It's the 10th, isn't it? Yeah. In August. Yeah, but not our wedding anniversary. Anniversary of when we met. No, when we got together. Sorry. 30 Martini. I still remember. We were drunk. You used to drink at the time still. And we were dancing.
(01:32):
and the song Danza Coduro came up and I was like, yeah, because I love to dance to that song. And you didn't seem very keen and I was a bit like, what's wrong with him? He doesn't want to dance to Danza Coduro. And then American Boy came up and then we danced with me. And I think that was the song Estelle. Yeah. If Estelle's listening, apologies. I'm just not the biggest fan of that song. Oh, wow. You have to be now because we're going to be good together. Why?
(02:01):
Okay, so when's our guest on? No, really, you have to love that song now because you associate it with the day. Okay, so clearly I love Estelle, my apologies. I love the song and clearly it was an impactful song and it always will be in our relationship. So you don't listen to it in the car while, what is the word, reminiscing? Reminiscing.
(02:29):
Yes, I did. Let's just move on to our guest before we get into an argument. So today we are speaking to a lovely guest who we had on in the past. So if you are a regular listener, you will know this lady, Dr. Melissa Cancel. Hi, Melissa. Hi. Hi.
(02:52):
I love your banter. I just love it. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Don't even rehearse it. It's very spontaneous. That's what's great about it. It's so genuine. Yeah. So, as I mentioned, we had you on in the past. We talked about marriage in general, like marriage, how to communicate in a marriage.
(03:15):
And we've worked with Melissa since and she is absolutely phenomenal. I have to say that. Like if you're looking for help in your marriage or communication or anything, like really, there is nothing like, you don't really have to have a problem to get help or support because I think it's something everyone needs. Yeah. Everyone can improve in the way they communicate and stuff. Yeah. And...
(03:44):
We talk, or at least I can speak for you, but I learned so many new things about how the differences in culture...
impact our relationship that I just knew we had to bring that back and talk about it more because we talked about this subject with Yao in the past but we have to admit we are wiser now than we were then at least I am no so there is so much more we would like to talk about on this subject so that's why we have Melissa on again because she's an expert in
(04:21):
So it's not just us sharing our experience, our views, but we actually have a professional here, a real doctor who can give us her insight how to navigate the cultural differences in the marriage. Is that, do I pronounce it right? Cultural? Yeah, it's fine. It's a mouthful. If we have any Slovakians here, inflation. Can you say that?
(04:47):
No, let's not do it. Okay. Let's not do it. I'm not ashamed to speak with my English accent. So let's talk about like cultural differences in marriage, like overall before we get into the specifics. So
(05:09):
In your experience, Melissa, how does this impact marriage? I know that it's not an easy answer to this question, but what's the main thing you see when you work with your clients and maybe in your life, personal life? What's the main issue maybe people come across when they don't come from the same background? Yeah.
(05:35):
There's actually two schools of thought when it comes to what attracts us to another person. One of them is represented by the saying, birds of a feather flock together. That is, the more similar two people are, the better they're going to be able to build a satisfying marriage. And the other is the opposites attract, right? That we want opposites in another person.
(06:00):
And actually, both are true. We want people who are opposite from us in maybe in some aspects with regard to likes and dislikes, just so that that broadens our horizons. But especially with regard to our personality traits, we tend to be gravitated towards people who have strengths where we have weaknesses and vice versa.
(06:24):
But the birds of a feather flock together is really true when it comes to a lot of your background, your culture, your religion.
And culture includes all of that. Culture includes, you know, your religion, your history, your, you know, even your preferences of food. And they've done a lot of studies that have shown that the more similar two people are, the more likely they are to have a healthy, satisfying marriage that lasts. Now, having said that, does that mean that you should never, you know, get together with somebody who's different from you in those areas? Obviously, no. Right.
(07:04):
But it creates some challenges beyond those that you would normally have in any marriage. So in any marriage, people are going to have different backgrounds, different history, even if they're from the same culture. Obviously, there's gender differences, and we've hit on some of those even in the last podcast that I did. And those can create enough of a...
(07:31):
difficulty in communication. When you add culture on top of that, now we've got yet another layer of difference that impacts how people communicate. So it's really important to, if you're headed into that relationship or like you guys are already in that relationship, you need to be able to identify how you think and communicate differently based on your culture so that you can
(08:00):
work through, communicate through those differences and they don't create conflict. And that's really the goal of everything that I do is to try to help
People, couples communicate in a way that is going to minimize how much conflict they have, because obviously less conflict, the healthier you're going to be. And then the conflicts you have, I work with how are you going to resolve that conflict? So this is a very important aspect for anybody who comes in.
(08:35):
from different cultural backgrounds. And it can play a huge role, even to the point of being what causes a marriage to break up.
simply because you only view things from your culture and you're not willing to or you don't have the knowledge or someone to help you see things from your partner's perspective and then learn how to build a bridge so that the two of you can communicate across it. So it's a little bit of a longer answer maybe than what you were wanting, but I wanted to kind of give it some context. Yeah, and I agree that I think I underestimated
(09:13):
the impact of this, yeah, I always, oh, it's going to be fine, love is enough. And I'm not saying it's not, but it's so much more, no, to it than we had. What do you think, Jo? Do you feel the same? Like there is much more to it than we maybe realised before getting married or getting together, before we danced to Estelle. We need to leave Estelle out of this, don't we? But anyway, I think, no, it's,
(09:42):
At the best of times, when you're trying to communicate to anybody, if you don't always have the right way of putting your point across in the right way, it sometimes just naturally just causes conflict. If you add on top of it a situation where both parties are absolutely knackered, you're tired, you're irritable or whatever and things and you're fighting...
(10:10):
Wow. Yeah. And you're just not able to kind of turn around and say what you need to say concisely, then there's going to be problems along the lines, aren't there? Yes. 100%. And we talked with Melissa before, we talked about cultural... I just... Cultural values. Oh, showing off with your...
(10:40):
Queen English. Or is it English you have? I don't know what it is. Anyway, values. C values. C values, yeah. And this really, really got my attention when we went through that. So I would like to, if Melissa is okay with that, I would like to talk a bit more about these values and then Melissa will introduce her free resource that she can email, send to you.
(11:09):
for free and she elaborates on these values more in the resource. So let's talk about the individualism versus collectivism first, because that's the first value we mentioned. And that really was such a big eye-opener for me. But I'll let Melissa explain to you what it means and then we can discuss more. Sure.
(11:37):
So individualism, collectivism is a way culture has of viewing what...
what success means in a culture. So some cultures are very individualistic in that they focus on the achievement of the individual, the success of the individual. You can see that represented by the kinds of heroes that are represented in that culture, who are the icons in the culture. Now, the U.S. is pretty individualistic, not the most, but...
(12:15):
Pretty much. And I mentioned this in our training too, but these values are all on a continuum. So you can have a culture that's right in the middle, far to one side, far to the other side and anywhere in between. So the U.S., like I said, is not the most, but we see that we really value the success of the individual, assertiveness, achievement, even the idea of dominance to a certain extent.
(12:42):
And while people will have favorite teams, they often have favorite athletes, movie stars that we value, we prize. And these people also typically make a whole lot of money for that reason because they then get contracts to be able to do advertisements and things. And the reason why that's the case is because
(13:04):
advertisers, marketers know that we value and prize that person, even if what they're advertising has nothing to do with them. It's that they have that appeal to us. And so we see that reflected in how the United States culture is. Some cultures are considered collectivistic. That is, they're much more concerned about the group, the success of the group, the happiness of the group, the achievement of the group.
(13:30):
And those would be at the far end of the collectivistic would be a lot of Asian cultures, so much so to the point that their communication often will reflect that. So they might not say things very directly because that would be offensive to a family, to an organization, to a business.
(13:56):
So you have to really be able to understand the context and pay attention to the characteristics of the group in order to understand what they're trying to communicate, what they're trying to convey. So when you think about these two, you have one person from an individualistic culture, one person from a collectivistic culture, they're going to view the world differently.
(14:20):
The individualistic side might be more concerned about themselves, about their individual family unit, as opposed to the culture or society at large. Whereas a person from a collectivistic culture is going to be more concerned about the larger group, the people around them, their larger culture, etc. So that's basically individualism, collectivism.
(14:46):
Yeah. And we realized that Yao, being Ghanaian, although he grew up in London, but he has, because his siblings and his parents were more Ghanaian than you. That's not the right way to put it, but they spent more time there. So you spending time with them did have an impact on you as well. And you have that in your blood, in your DNA. And you are collectivistic, is that right? Mm-hmm.
(15:17):
You could just say group too. Group, yeah. You're group-minded. Group-minded, exactly. And I always used to see that as, I always was like, Yao is too nice. He always thinks about others and it would drive me crazy sometimes because I'm on the other side. Too individualistic sometimes.
(15:42):
which is who we are Slovakians yeah and now I understand that this is just not something that it doesn't have to be a problem it's just who he is how he he's been raised and I was raised and
And we just have to accept each other's differences rather than, oh, why don't you see this way? Why aren't you that way? Why are you so nice? Why do you think about others? Because at one point I would think that Yao would put others before his family. But now I know this is not the case. This is just something I've never experienced, that kind of upbringing, that kind of culture. So I couldn't understand it. But now I see like, oh, okay, it's not just, it's not,
(16:27):
Just because he does it differently doesn't mean it's different to me. It doesn't mean it's bad or good or, you know, it's just different. Yeah. And that really is the key to...
Solving all kinds of issues like, you know, racism, ethnocentrism. I mean, basically an ism, if you want to talk about people who are disabled. It's really understanding that different is not bad or wrong. It's just different. Yeah. Yeah.
(17:01):
And when we can do that, I mean, to try to say like there is no difference is ridiculous. I mean, there is difference is obvious. Right. But it's but it's the idea that different is just different. It's not bad or wrong. So that's that's a wonderful thing to learn.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. It does impact the marriage big time once you're aware of these things or a relationship, yeah. And another thing I can mention here is that what, say, would be bad, so-called, in my culture, when someone from a different culture does it, it doesn't mean it's bad or vice versa, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
(17:46):
Do you know what I mean, Jao? No, say that again. I missed that. So if you say, do something, like it's just who you are and something, for instance, I don't like small talk. I don't like that. How are you doing? How's your day? To me, it's just a waste of time. There is no real connection there. No one cares how you are. It's just like, why are we saying these things? So I'm still struggling to live in Scotland or the UK sometimes to
(18:14):
I mean, to do this small talk because I know people here do it. So I do it, yeah. But say if I came and spoke to people like we speak back home, I would be seen as rude, yeah, for instance. Be seen as rude? I would, yeah. If I didn't do like, oh, how are you doing? If I message someone and just ask, hi, can you do this for me, for instance, yeah? That wouldn't sit well with local people, would it?
(18:45):
Like people here, you mean? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. If I skip the how you are, blah, blah, blah, if I just said, oh, can you send me this, can you... Or just you go straight to the point, yeah, but this is how we are. Yeah.
But if you say, if you didn't understand the differences in the culture, you could see me as, not you specifically, but someone from the UK could see me, oh, what's wrong with her? That's very rude. But understanding, oh, it's not her, it's the culture, it's how she was raised. That makes a big difference, brings people more closer and closer.
(19:22):
allows understanding rather than anything else. And the fact that it is seen, it's deemed as acceptable, that manner of the way that you spoke. So, like you say, at home, if you spoke exactly like that, it just is the norm. So it's okay. You can be straight. You can be direct. You know, you don't have to... Yeah, yeah. But say you come to Slovakia and you were saying, oh, hi to everyone, you remember, on the street.
(19:51):
you're being nice because that's just who you are. I said, don't do it. It's just, it can come across like you're looking for trouble. Or if you ask someone at the cashier in the shop, oh, what's your plan for the evening? Back home, they will look at you like, the hell? It's not your business, yeah? But saying that, you could say that for being in London. There is, you know, you could be walking down the street
(20:18):
And if you're smiling too much, people would be kind of, are you okay type thing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it depends. Yeah, but I'd still be myself and I'd still, if I'm smiling, I'm smiling. If you don't like it, don't look at me or turn away or, you know. If I bring something positive to something and you don't take that well,
(20:44):
That to me is slightly on you, even if there's a cultural kind of divide or cultural difference in that. You need to understand this is just who they are. Yeah, I'm not taking anything bad from it. I just understand it for what it is. You have to be careful, though, because there are some, especially nonverbal behaviors that can be offensive sometimes.
(21:11):
In other cultures or that can communicate something other than what you intend. I remember years ago when I was in college, I took a couple study tours to Israel, Greece, Turkey, over in that area. And I was 19. And I didn't know that in Israel, when a woman makes direct eye contact with a man, it's like saying, you want to go back to my place or yours. Right.
(21:41):
Um, whereas we make eye contact, direct eye contact in the United States, you know, all the time, that's considered to be what you want to do when you meet people. Even if you're just passing in the street, you make direct eye contact and you smile, uh, or you might, I mean, depending again, there's a difference between I live in the South and it's different in the South than in the North of the United States. Um,
(22:05):
So a friend and I were walking around and, you know, we're talking to people and we're smiling, making eye contact. And we got kind of into some awkward situations until somebody told us that, you know, how our nonverbal communication was being interpreted. And we were like, my goodness, we, you know, we didn't know. So I understand the point of what Yao is saying, that you don't necessarily have to change and not smile just because
(22:34):
you know, people might think strangely of you and yet on the other hand, you do have to be careful because there can be some behaviors that communicate something different or in some way could be offensive in another culture. Yeah. Absolutely. Don't worry, it's not offensive in how it's just weird. It's like, it's, it, it comes with like you're looking for trouble. Why are you smiling at me stranger?
(23:00):
Yeah. And, you know, the small talk, I've often thought about small talk because we do that. We do that in the States as well. You know, you pass somebody, you say, hi, how are you? And you expect them to say, oh, fine. How are you? Right. You know, what would happen if you say, hi, how are you? And they actually tell you legitimately how they are. You know, I am having an awful day. You know, I'm having a hard time with my boss. My kids are, you know, and they stopped you.
(23:27):
and actually talk to you for five minutes to tell you how they were doing, right? We would all be shocked. This is us, yeah. How are you? Because we just expect, it's in passing, right? You expect you're just going to say it and they're going to respond, oh, fine, how are you? And you're just going to keep going and not have this be an entire conversation. So it is interesting when you think about even that, how it can be different. Yeah, yeah.
(23:53):
I don't know where I got it from, but there was something I heard. It was a very, very long time ago. And it was, you know, obviously this is me going on a little bit of a tangent. And it was about a young lad who goes to school.
(24:14):
doesn't connect with anybody he is a bit of a loner he you know just every single day is that day where he he tries to connect but he doesn't connect and I
The moral of it goes along and along and then one day he's going to have a complete meltdown. But for the first time ever, someone turns around and says hi and or he says hi and they say hi and they connect and they say hi and how's your day? And they actually go into a bit more of a conversation. It changes his trajectory, you know, his life path.
(24:51):
plan or you know something along those lines um that interaction was enough to kind of change the way that that person deemed how life was and how he just ought to just used to how life is if i'm if i turn around and i say and i said this to you if i turn around and say hi if i feel that someone at that moment meets that moment where they say oh actually i'm
(25:23):
And I can do it. If I can't do it, then I'll say, oh, I'm really sorry. I see you, you know, please. I hope things are good. But if I can, I'm more than, that's the thing. I'm more than happy to have this conversation. And I enjoy that interaction. And I love that. That's you. Yeah. It's the Ghanaian in you. No, I don't think that is the Ghanaian in me. I think that's me. Who?
(25:50):
It can be personality. I mean, we've talked about how you're a very empathic person. And so, yeah, that can be part of it. I do think it does tie into your culture. One of the things you were going to talk about was masculinity versus femininity. So feminine cultures are much more concerned about nurturing, caring support.
(26:14):
And I would say probably a lot of African cultures are more feminine in characteristic, whereas like Slovakia would be definitely more on the masculine side of that particular cultural value. So that I think could be part of it where you just have that natural tendency to want to support, to nurture if you have the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah.
(26:43):
So that's the next C value. Masculinity versus... Masculinity is more about assertiveness, dominance, what we would consider to be masculine traits. I mean, I kind of hate to use that term, but stereotypical masculine traits.
(27:04):
And it doesn't mean that if a culture is masculine, that the men are more masculine. It just means that the traits they value are more stereotypical of masculine traits versus a feminine culture where the values that they prize are more typical of what we would consider to be stereotypical feminine qualities. Like I said, nurturing, caring, supportiveness. And so...
(27:30):
people can be influenced by those values that are represented in either extreme. So I already mentioned, I think a lot of African cultures would be more feminine. A lot of Hispanic cultures are more feminine in their characteristic, whereas a lot of Northern European and the United States are probably more on the masculine side.
(27:53):
Um, so I would say that probably as a general rule, we would be shocked if somebody stopped and wanted to talk to us. If we just said, hi, how are you? And they actually started telling us, I do think there would be people like Yao who would, who would stop and, and want to, um, engage in that conversation. Um, but I think it would depend too on the situation, um,
(28:18):
Yeah, exactly. You know, and a lot of factors. I consider myself to be a pretty empathic person. I enjoy helping people, but I'm not necessarily going to stop and have a conversation with every person I meet for that reason. And that's definitely a cultural impact on what would be my natural personality. Mm-hmm.
(28:48):
Now, it makes me think, like, who we are, really, because on the surface, we have these walls, yeah? Like, don't come close to me. But then I believe that our, no, I know that our relationships, I mean, friendships and connections, and they're much stronger than...
(29:10):
in many different countries, I don't want to offend anyone, so I'm not going to be specific, but I can see that for us, friends are like family. It's like once you get close to a Slovakian, then those relationships are solid, like we will die for you. I haven't seen that anywhere else. So what is it then? It's like the surface level is very cold,
(29:38):
but then underneath it's much stronger connections than... I don't know that that fits specifically into one of the values. It's almost like
you have an overlying masculine kind of presentation that, that becomes more feminine as you get to know people. But I still think, I still think there would be a difference in the fact that like you said, it's once you get to know people, they were the same way. We've got all kinds of people that we end up, end up adopting and, and bringing into our family. And I would say a lot of Americans would do the same thing. Um,
(30:10):
But it's, but we have to get to know them first. I think in a lot of more feminine cultures, there's, there's less of that, like, we're going to keep you at distance until we know you and then we embrace you. It's like we embrace everybody. So yeah, I think that.
We still have that masculine tendency, even though eventually we end up being very supportive and nurturing. I think that even you didn't understand for a long time, Yao, that why am I so...
(30:44):
I don't think I'm cold, but it can come across that way, yeah? For someone, say, people in the shop, they like to talk. And I make it clear, like, no, no talking, no asking questions. It depends on my mood as well. But normally, I don't like to chat to strangers in the shop. And that shows, I think, that I radiate that energy.
(31:10):
And sometimes I feel that you felt like I was being a bit cold to people.
But now you understand it more like it's just this what it is. I think you've changed quite a bit. I think you... I've adjusted to the UK mentality and culture. And that's something that we talked about is, so yes, there's a certain level at which you manage these differences through accepting that the differences are there, but you also can...
(31:42):
make what's called a third culture. That is the two of you in your relationship determine what your culture is going to be. And you may end up blending, excuse me, elements from both of your cultures.
to be able to make it work for you to live together. So I'm sure that both of you are making changes from what would be traditionally your culture, just because you know that making those changes make life easier, cause less conflict, make you more connected in your marriage. And that's really the goal, right? You want to keep who you are. You shouldn't have to change every single thing you are just to please your spouse.
(32:26):
On the other hand, there are some things that we can work to change and our spouses can work to change and we meet in the middle and we find a much deeper, much stronger, much healthier connection in doing that than when we stubbornly stick to, well, this is how I am and you should love me as I am. Well, yes, you should. But is there something that I can do to make my marriage better?
(32:54):
I love that. I suppose it's kind of like the times when I didn't think your jokes were that funny. And then with time, I've had to kind of compromise and make you feel that some of those jokes are funnier now, but they're still not funny. So you pretend.
(33:15):
Sometimes you just have to do these things. It's your love language. Sorry. You're totally right. It's an appreciation of the other person. Even her attempt at humor. Appreciating that is still value. Brilliant. My jokes are hilarious. It's just UK people can't get it. We'll work on it. Brilliant. Brilliant.
(33:46):
I love you UK people, by the way, just for the record. I love you all. So that leaves us with the third C value, cultural value. I'm getting better. Yeah. So there are other cultural values and they could impact how you communicated the marriage. But we decided to talk about the ones that I think would impact communication the most. And this one specifically is high versus low context communication. So communication
(34:16):
When you think about this, it can be a little bit confusing. You've got to think in a high context culture, you have to rely a lot on the context of communication in order to understand it. Whereas in a low context culture, you do not have to rely a lot on context to understand it. So low context cultures tend to be very direct verbally.
(34:40):
So the primary communication comes through the verbal channel. There is still nonverbal that reinforces that, but you don't have to understand the relationship. You don't have to look at where the communication is occurring. You don't have to know all of these other aspects of context to understand what's being said. It's pretty direct. You hear the phrase, you know, I say what I mean and mean what I say. That's low context communication.
(35:10):
And again, I would say most of the United States is more on the side of the low context. I would say probably Slovakia is also in that category. High context communication, you really have to understand all of the different contexts that are playing into it. So where is the communication happening? Who is there? What is the status of the people who are communicating? Are they trying to save face?
(35:39):
In what they're saying, that is, they don't want to present a negative identity for the culture as a whole. So they're going to say something that that may seem even contrary to what they actually think.
But if you understood all of the context and very subtle nonverbal cues, you would then be able to understand what they're communicating. And that would be a lot of Asian cultures, again, would be very far on the side of high context so that you have to really understand all of the different aspects of the communication because what is said is not what is meant.
(36:15):
And if you take things at face value for the words themselves, you're not going to understand the message correctly. And this is very valuable as well in relationship, no? Because people can get frustrated like, oh, why don't you just say it? Yeah, but it's just different culture, different. It's not that they are not capable of
(36:42):
saying what they have on their mind. It's just different culture and that can be very helpful for people to understand that. You can miss a lot, can't you? Depending on what
end of the spectrum and things. Maybe people are like that at the beginning. I can't just remember, to be honest, like when you didn't say something directly, maybe I got angry or frustrated, like, oh, why can't you just say, but it doesn't mean that you are not capable or not intelligent enough to communicate. It's the culture and that can be very liberating to understand. One of the main strategies to improve your listening is to look. And that's
(37:25):
And that would apply to everybody because we still, I mean, even in the United States, we would say that about two-thirds of a message's meaning is communicated through the nonverbal channel. So we still use all these different nonverbal codes that are going to modify, support, possibly contradict. But the importance of that to interpreting the message is
(37:50):
And all of those other aspects of context I mentioned are not as important as they would be in a high context culture. You probably need to rely more about 90 to 95% on the context and the nonverbal communication. So one of the ways in which you can improve your listening is by looking, right? You got to use your eyes to get all those nonverbal cues in addition to being aware of
(38:17):
how a person from that culture communicates. So the awareness of it, if you're in a business and you're going to travel to another culture, you should do some online searching to find out how they communicate differently and be aware of those differences so that you can adjust accordingly. Obviously, in a marriage, being aware of them is going to help you
(38:40):
move more towards what what I'd already mentioned which is that third culture I'm trying to find a middle ground that works for you guys to communicate it successfully I think this is the secret to a successful marriage like from different cultures not that first of all to that would be my advice to anyone to study the other culture try and understand it as much as you can
(39:03):
Talk to Melissa. Talk to Melissa, obviously. And that goes without saying. And then find your own, the third culture. I love that so much. But I think lots of people underestimate the importance of studying that culture. And we did as well. You don't think that it's going to be that important, but it is because it will help you to understand the other person on a completely different new level.
(39:31):
And it will make things so much easier for you both. Well, and really, we should study our spouses, period, right? Oh, 100%. I mean, we should study them, their personality, their background, their culture. And even if you feel like you really know your spouse, as time passes and you experience life together, you're going to grow, you're going to change. So a healthy marriage is going to include
(39:59):
the two of you having a lifelong study of each other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Does that include Estelle? Maybe you need to put Estelle on a playlist and just occasionally pop it on so that it's like, oh, this is a special song. I remember this song. You American boy. What would you say? What is your advice to people in a cinema? I'm just curious because how many...
(40:33):
From the things that we learned from you, Melissa, even if we went through, you know, if people went through kind of understanding other people's cultures, would they at some level still be able to make, you know, connect those dots, you know, dot those I's, cross those T's and things and make those connections that actually this culture exists?
(40:59):
has this about it. And so this is the reason, you know, I think what you did when we, you know, obviously when we're having our conversations is you bring it to the forefront, we understand it. And then we start having our eureka moments and things when you're like, oh, okay. So when you were doing that and you were trying, I missed everything.
(41:21):
The, you know, the subconscious, the movement that you were doing and stuff around it was actually reinforcing what you were trying to say. And I didn't catch that. And so I misinterpreted what you were saying by doing this. You know, those things, I'm not sure whether you can always do that by just researching. I think sometimes it does take that other person to kind of bring that to the forefront. And obviously you do that really well, very, very well.
(41:51):
Thank you. No. And we don't get any commission just for the record. No. We should maybe ask. No, it's just had such a positive impact on our relationship, which is obviously... Situationship. Yeah, it is situationship after a stealth thing. So, no, no.
(42:12):
It's just, yeah, I sometimes wonder, it's great that, you know, your partner would want to learn more about you and it will naturally happen. I don't always see that even with that learning, whether sometimes they will always identify that because of that, this is why that person does such a certain thing. Yeah.
(42:36):
No, I agree with you completely. I mean, I was just doing some, I was using chat GPT to do some research. So I've created a visual model of my program, the Couples Communication Cure. And I love the model. And I thought, you know, it's almost so simple what you need to fix.
(42:56):
to have a healthy marriage when it comes to your communication. It's you need to understand your spouse. You need to communicate clearly verbally and non-verbally. You need to listen effectively. You need to manage the conflict that you have after all of those things are corrected. And then you need to work to keep a priority on your marriage and stay connected. Those are the five components of my program. And you can say that, and it's not like any of that is world shattering. Like
(43:23):
I never knew that listening was so important to a healthy marriage. Everybody knows that. So why don't we have healthy marriages? Why do 50% of American marriages end in divorce? I'm not sure what it is across the globe, but I'm sure it's pretty high. Well, it can be that you've got spouses who just don't want to put the effort into working on it. I mean, that is definitely the case. But I think there's a lot of people who are really committed to their marriages and they understand that.
(43:51):
what they need to do. They don't know how to do it. And so that's where I step in that I'm trying to help you not only understand, okay, this is what you need to do, but how do you do it? How do you put this into practice into your actual marriage so that you can make changes and form new habits that are going to then impact the rest of your marriage, right? Because my goal is not to have you guys work with me for the rest of your life.
(44:20):
My goal is to teach you the skills that you need to develop a healthy marriage, just like we do with our physical bodies, right? You know, we know what we need to do to keep our bodies healthy. So sometimes you need somebody to help you find the right exercise program, find the right diet. And once you do that, then it's just a matter of putting those things into practice and turning them into habits. Yeah. It's not easy though, is that? No.
(44:50):
Is being physically healthy easy? No. Exactly, yeah. Depends how old you are. I mean, maybe it is for a few people, but it's not for me. I totally agree.
So Melissa, tell us about your free resource I mentioned at the beginning and where people can find you. Yeah, so you can go to the communication doc. It's thecommunicationdoc.com. And on the menu bar, there's a contact. So if you hit the contact button and email me and tell me you listened to this podcast, I can email you the inventory I created, which allows you to...
(45:33):
basically rate where you fall based on your culture, on these different cultural values, and then try to identify and think about the ways in which it impacts how you communicate in your marriage. So if this specifically interests you, you can have that option as well as I have several other resources available on my website. There's one for conflict. There's a masterclass about four thoughts that can destroy your marriage.
(45:58):
And on the main page, there's a video you can watch called the three minute fix, which is a quick little intro to what I do and a great little jewel of information that you can use right away to help with conflict. So I have all kinds of resources available there. Amazing. Just realize one thing we can just quickly mention how these differences in the culture impact the parenting.
(46:24):
But because many of our listeners are parents, but I think that it's all connected. Like what we already mentioned, it's all connected. Like there is no specific way to parent. There's no right and wrong answers. Yeah. I mean, it's not, well, within reason. Right. There's no...
(46:48):
But you're going to want to teach your children the values that are important to you, right? So that's where that third culture is really important because if Yao wants to teach your boys to consider people around them, to always be aware of the people around, to always stop and take time to listen to people, to be aware of people who are hurting and not be focused on themselves, and you're
(47:17):
Teaching them more like your background where your family is so important and this really needs to be your priority. You're going to be confusing them. They can't do both at the same time. Right. So you find that third culture that both of you can accept and teach your boys that culture and that becomes your own culture.
(47:42):
culture of how you think, you know, how the values you want your children to be raised with. Yeah. Yeah. I think the most important thing is to be willing to have an open mind and not be like, my way is the only way. Yeah. Because then you're screwed. So that's the way forward. Yeah. Especially when you have an interracial marriage or, and in our case, it's not just different cultures, different race. So it's
(48:11):
doubly... I don't want to say hard. No hard. What's the right word? Doubly... Challenging? Challenging, yeah. So...
Now, this has to do with disability, not with culture, but I love this story. So I have a I had a friend when I was working on my Ph.D. I'm I'm legally blind. My friend was disabled because she had cancer. So she had had a knee operation and like a knee replacement and actually part of her leg taken out. And she wore this big blue brace that went from almost the top of her thigh down past her knee.
(48:47):
And so she told me this story that when she was in Florida, which is where we were both going to school, she went to Disney World. Obviously in Florida, it's hot. And she a lot of times would wear pants to hide the brace because she found that it attracted a lot of negative attention, almost like a stigma where people would automatically assume and usually ask her, oh, what did you do to yourself? So
(49:11):
So they would usually assume that she had done something, gotten, you know, had some kind of a sporting accident or something. That's why she had to wear the brace. And she didn't always feel like explaining the whole cancer situation. So she's wearing shorts. She's at Disney. She's sitting on a bench. There's a little boy with his mother. He's about four. He notices her brace.
(49:34):
And she's like, oh, great, here we go. So he walks over to her and says, you know, points at it and then looks at his mom and says, what's that? And she expected, my friend expected that the mother was going to be embarrassed, you know, oh, don't point things out, that type of thing. Or maybe, you know, just respond kind of in a more objectifying way that most people did. But the mother's response was really beautiful. And it was, well...
(50:02):
It's like a big blue bandaid. And the boy looked at her, my friend, and my friend shook her head. And she's like, yeah, it's like a big blue bandaid. And the boy turned around and walked off and thought it was the most normal thing ever. And I love that picture when it comes to difference, whether it be culture, whether it be gender, whether it be race, whether it be disability. It's just, she was able to relate it to something that the boy understood.
(50:33):
He understood band-aids. You put a band-aid on a boo-boo. She has a boo-boo. She has a big band-aid on it. Instead of making it this big deal like it's something to be feared, to avoid, to not talk about. And I think that's where we really want to cross those barriers of it's just different. Yeah. Oh, I love that story. Yeah.
(50:58):
It's not often that you can find the right words in that moment, but yeah. Most people would feel awkward and then it makes the situation even like, oh, there is something bad about it. Oh, it's normal. I love that.
So I think this is a perfect way to wrap it up with this story. Did you want to say anything? Yeah, I'm willing to play a stealth with the kids every Sunday for...
(51:29):
Five minutes. We dance together to it. Okay, that's a bit too much. We'll work towards that. So thank you. Thank you so much, Melissa. This was amazing. Amazing. That's our words officially now. We're not even trying to change it anymore. It's just what we say. Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. And we share all the links to Melissa's website and all the socials in the description of this episode.
(51:57):
And if you enjoyed it, you know what to do. Share it far and wide because you never know who needs it. And if you enjoyed it, also leave us a review, please. And a like and a good review and I don't know what else. And by the way, subscribe. Yeah. The sponsor spot is still open. Yeah. It's just...
(52:21):
Oh, okay. Yeah, The sponsor. The spot for a sponsor. Oh, yeah. Just throwing that in casually. Wow. Clearly, we're manifesting other things as we go along as well. So what we're talking about is great content. So it's coming. It is. Thanks so much and see you in two weeks. Thanks, Melissa. And thank you, everybody. Take care. Bye. KEY POINTS Q: Who is the guest featured in this episode? A: Dr. Melissa Cancel, an expert in communication in relationships. Q: How does culture influence marriage according to Dr. Melissa Cancel? A: Culture influences communication styles, values, and expectations, which can create challenges in marriage if not understood and managed. Q: What is the difference between individualistic and collectivistic cultures? A: Individualistic cultures focus on the success and achievement of the individual, while collectivistic cultures prioritize the success and happiness of the group or community. Q: Which cultural value does Ghanaian culture tend to align with, individualism or collectivism? A: Ghanaian culture tends to be more collectivistic or group-minded. Q: What is the significance of understanding cultural differences in communication for couples? A: Understanding cultural differences helps couples communicate effectively, minimize conflict, and build a stronger relationship by appreciating each other's perspectives. Q: What are masculine and feminine cultural values as explained in the podcast? A: Masculine cultures value assertiveness, dominance, and stereotypical masculine traits, while feminine cultures value nurturing, caring, and supportiveness. Q: What is the difference between high context and low context communication? A: High context communication relies heavily on context, nonverbal cues, and indirect messages, common in many Asian cultures. Low context communication is direct and explicit, common in cultures like the United States and Slovakia. Q: What advice does Dr. Melissa Cancel give for couples from different cultures? A: She advises studying each other's cultures, understanding communication styles, and creating a 'third culture' that blends elements from both backgrounds to build a healthy relationship. Q: What free resource does Dr. Melissa Cancel offer to listeners? A: She offers a cultural values inventory that helps couples identify where they fall on cultural dimensions and understand how it impacts their communication. Q: How do cultural differences impact parenting in intercultural marriages? A: Parents may have different values and approaches based on their cultures, so it's important to create a shared culture or approach that both agree on for raising children. Q: What is the importance of lifelong learning about your spouse according to the podcast? A: Because people grow and change over time, couples should continuously learn about each other's personality, background, and culture to maintain a healthy marriage.
Hello my friend and welcome back to the podcast Life in Black and White. I'm trying to think about something unique to say because I don't want to say the same thing all the time that Jao is here as well, but he is. So hi Jao. How are you doing? How are you doing? Tell us. I'm good. I'm good. Everything good on your side? Yes. You look very handsome.
(01:06):
Oh wow, thank you. It's alright. Do you realize we have our anniversary coming up? Our 10th anniversary? Yes. It's the 10th, isn't it? Yeah. In August. Yeah, but not our wedding anniversary. Anniversary of when we met. No, when we got together. Sorry. 30 Martini. I still remember. We were drunk. You used to drink at the time still. And we were dancing.
(01:32):
and the song Danza Coduro came up and I was like, yeah, because I love to dance to that song. And you didn't seem very keen and I was a bit like, what's wrong with him? He doesn't want to dance to Danza Coduro. And then American Boy came up and then we danced with me. And I think that was the song Estelle. Yeah. If Estelle's listening, apologies. I'm just not the biggest fan of that song. Oh, wow. You have to be now because we're going to be good together. Why?
(02:01):
Okay, so when's our guest on? No, really, you have to love that song now because you associate it with the day. Okay, so clearly I love Estelle, my apologies. I love the song and clearly it was an impactful song and it always will be in our relationship. So you don't listen to it in the car while, what is the word, reminiscing? Reminiscing.
(02:29):
Yes, I did. Let's just move on to our guest before we get into an argument. So today we are speaking to a lovely guest who we had on in the past. So if you are a regular listener, you will know this lady, Dr. Melissa Cancel. Hi, Melissa. Hi. Hi.
(02:52):
I love your banter. I just love it. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Don't even rehearse it. It's very spontaneous. That's what's great about it. It's so genuine. Yeah. So, as I mentioned, we had you on in the past. We talked about marriage in general, like marriage, how to communicate in a marriage.
(03:15):
And we've worked with Melissa since and she is absolutely phenomenal. I have to say that. Like if you're looking for help in your marriage or communication or anything, like really, there is nothing like, you don't really have to have a problem to get help or support because I think it's something everyone needs. Yeah. Everyone can improve in the way they communicate and stuff. Yeah. And...
(03:44):
We talk, or at least I can speak for you, but I learned so many new things about how the differences in culture...
impact our relationship that I just knew we had to bring that back and talk about it more because we talked about this subject with Yao in the past but we have to admit we are wiser now than we were then at least I am no so there is so much more we would like to talk about on this subject so that's why we have Melissa on again because she's an expert in
(04:21):
So it's not just us sharing our experience, our views, but we actually have a professional here, a real doctor who can give us her insight how to navigate the cultural differences in the marriage. Is that, do I pronounce it right? Cultural? Yeah, it's fine. It's a mouthful. If we have any Slovakians here, inflation. Can you say that?
(04:47):
No, let's not do it. Okay. Let's not do it. I'm not ashamed to speak with my English accent. So let's talk about like cultural differences in marriage, like overall before we get into the specifics. So
(05:09):
In your experience, Melissa, how does this impact marriage? I know that it's not an easy answer to this question, but what's the main thing you see when you work with your clients and maybe in your life, personal life? What's the main issue maybe people come across when they don't come from the same background? Yeah.
(05:35):
There's actually two schools of thought when it comes to what attracts us to another person. One of them is represented by the saying, birds of a feather flock together. That is, the more similar two people are, the better they're going to be able to build a satisfying marriage. And the other is the opposites attract, right? That we want opposites in another person.
(06:00):
And actually, both are true. We want people who are opposite from us in maybe in some aspects with regard to likes and dislikes, just so that that broadens our horizons. But especially with regard to our personality traits, we tend to be gravitated towards people who have strengths where we have weaknesses and vice versa.
(06:24):
But the birds of a feather flock together is really true when it comes to a lot of your background, your culture, your religion.
And culture includes all of that. Culture includes, you know, your religion, your history, your, you know, even your preferences of food. And they've done a lot of studies that have shown that the more similar two people are, the more likely they are to have a healthy, satisfying marriage that lasts. Now, having said that, does that mean that you should never, you know, get together with somebody who's different from you in those areas? Obviously, no. Right.
(07:04):
But it creates some challenges beyond those that you would normally have in any marriage. So in any marriage, people are going to have different backgrounds, different history, even if they're from the same culture. Obviously, there's gender differences, and we've hit on some of those even in the last podcast that I did. And those can create enough of a...
(07:31):
difficulty in communication. When you add culture on top of that, now we've got yet another layer of difference that impacts how people communicate. So it's really important to, if you're headed into that relationship or like you guys are already in that relationship, you need to be able to identify how you think and communicate differently based on your culture so that you can
(08:00):
work through, communicate through those differences and they don't create conflict. And that's really the goal of everything that I do is to try to help
People, couples communicate in a way that is going to minimize how much conflict they have, because obviously less conflict, the healthier you're going to be. And then the conflicts you have, I work with how are you going to resolve that conflict? So this is a very important aspect for anybody who comes in.
(08:35):
from different cultural backgrounds. And it can play a huge role, even to the point of being what causes a marriage to break up.
simply because you only view things from your culture and you're not willing to or you don't have the knowledge or someone to help you see things from your partner's perspective and then learn how to build a bridge so that the two of you can communicate across it. So it's a little bit of a longer answer maybe than what you were wanting, but I wanted to kind of give it some context. Yeah, and I agree that I think I underestimated
(09:13):
the impact of this, yeah, I always, oh, it's going to be fine, love is enough. And I'm not saying it's not, but it's so much more, no, to it than we had. What do you think, Jo? Do you feel the same? Like there is much more to it than we maybe realised before getting married or getting together, before we danced to Estelle. We need to leave Estelle out of this, don't we? But anyway, I think, no, it's,
(09:42):
At the best of times, when you're trying to communicate to anybody, if you don't always have the right way of putting your point across in the right way, it sometimes just naturally just causes conflict. If you add on top of it a situation where both parties are absolutely knackered, you're tired, you're irritable or whatever and things and you're fighting...
(10:10):
Wow. Yeah. And you're just not able to kind of turn around and say what you need to say concisely, then there's going to be problems along the lines, aren't there? Yes. 100%. And we talked with Melissa before, we talked about cultural... I just... Cultural values. Oh, showing off with your...
(10:40):
Queen English. Or is it English you have? I don't know what it is. Anyway, values. C values. C values, yeah. And this really, really got my attention when we went through that. So I would like to, if Melissa is okay with that, I would like to talk a bit more about these values and then Melissa will introduce her free resource that she can email, send to you.
(11:09):
for free and she elaborates on these values more in the resource. So let's talk about the individualism versus collectivism first, because that's the first value we mentioned. And that really was such a big eye-opener for me. But I'll let Melissa explain to you what it means and then we can discuss more. Sure.
(11:37):
So individualism, collectivism is a way culture has of viewing what...
what success means in a culture. So some cultures are very individualistic in that they focus on the achievement of the individual, the success of the individual. You can see that represented by the kinds of heroes that are represented in that culture, who are the icons in the culture. Now, the U.S. is pretty individualistic, not the most, but...
(12:15):
Pretty much. And I mentioned this in our training too, but these values are all on a continuum. So you can have a culture that's right in the middle, far to one side, far to the other side and anywhere in between. So the U.S., like I said, is not the most, but we see that we really value the success of the individual, assertiveness, achievement, even the idea of dominance to a certain extent.
(12:42):
And while people will have favorite teams, they often have favorite athletes, movie stars that we value, we prize. And these people also typically make a whole lot of money for that reason because they then get contracts to be able to do advertisements and things. And the reason why that's the case is because
(13:04):
advertisers, marketers know that we value and prize that person, even if what they're advertising has nothing to do with them. It's that they have that appeal to us. And so we see that reflected in how the United States culture is. Some cultures are considered collectivistic. That is, they're much more concerned about the group, the success of the group, the happiness of the group, the achievement of the group.
(13:30):
And those would be at the far end of the collectivistic would be a lot of Asian cultures, so much so to the point that their communication often will reflect that. So they might not say things very directly because that would be offensive to a family, to an organization, to a business.
(13:56):
So you have to really be able to understand the context and pay attention to the characteristics of the group in order to understand what they're trying to communicate, what they're trying to convey. So when you think about these two, you have one person from an individualistic culture, one person from a collectivistic culture, they're going to view the world differently.
(14:20):
The individualistic side might be more concerned about themselves, about their individual family unit, as opposed to the culture or society at large. Whereas a person from a collectivistic culture is going to be more concerned about the larger group, the people around them, their larger culture, etc. So that's basically individualism, collectivism.
(14:46):
Yeah. And we realized that Yao, being Ghanaian, although he grew up in London, but he has, because his siblings and his parents were more Ghanaian than you. That's not the right way to put it, but they spent more time there. So you spending time with them did have an impact on you as well. And you have that in your blood, in your DNA. And you are collectivistic, is that right? Mm-hmm.
(15:17):
You could just say group too. Group, yeah. You're group-minded. Group-minded, exactly. And I always used to see that as, I always was like, Yao is too nice. He always thinks about others and it would drive me crazy sometimes because I'm on the other side. Too individualistic sometimes.
(15:42):
which is who we are Slovakians yeah and now I understand that this is just not something that it doesn't have to be a problem it's just who he is how he he's been raised and I was raised and
And we just have to accept each other's differences rather than, oh, why don't you see this way? Why aren't you that way? Why are you so nice? Why do you think about others? Because at one point I would think that Yao would put others before his family. But now I know this is not the case. This is just something I've never experienced, that kind of upbringing, that kind of culture. So I couldn't understand it. But now I see like, oh, okay, it's not just, it's not,
(16:27):
Just because he does it differently doesn't mean it's different to me. It doesn't mean it's bad or good or, you know, it's just different. Yeah. And that really is the key to...
Solving all kinds of issues like, you know, racism, ethnocentrism. I mean, basically an ism, if you want to talk about people who are disabled. It's really understanding that different is not bad or wrong. It's just different. Yeah. Yeah.
(17:01):
And when we can do that, I mean, to try to say like there is no difference is ridiculous. I mean, there is difference is obvious. Right. But it's but it's the idea that different is just different. It's not bad or wrong. So that's that's a wonderful thing to learn.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. It does impact the marriage big time once you're aware of these things or a relationship, yeah. And another thing I can mention here is that what, say, would be bad, so-called, in my culture, when someone from a different culture does it, it doesn't mean it's bad or vice versa, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
(17:46):
Do you know what I mean, Jao? No, say that again. I missed that. So if you say, do something, like it's just who you are and something, for instance, I don't like small talk. I don't like that. How are you doing? How's your day? To me, it's just a waste of time. There is no real connection there. No one cares how you are. It's just like, why are we saying these things? So I'm still struggling to live in Scotland or the UK sometimes to
(18:14):
I mean, to do this small talk because I know people here do it. So I do it, yeah. But say if I came and spoke to people like we speak back home, I would be seen as rude, yeah, for instance. Be seen as rude? I would, yeah. If I didn't do like, oh, how are you doing? If I message someone and just ask, hi, can you do this for me, for instance, yeah? That wouldn't sit well with local people, would it?
(18:45):
Like people here, you mean? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. If I skip the how you are, blah, blah, blah, if I just said, oh, can you send me this, can you... Or just you go straight to the point, yeah, but this is how we are. Yeah.
But if you say, if you didn't understand the differences in the culture, you could see me as, not you specifically, but someone from the UK could see me, oh, what's wrong with her? That's very rude. But understanding, oh, it's not her, it's the culture, it's how she was raised. That makes a big difference, brings people more closer and closer.
(19:22):
allows understanding rather than anything else. And the fact that it is seen, it's deemed as acceptable, that manner of the way that you spoke. So, like you say, at home, if you spoke exactly like that, it just is the norm. So it's okay. You can be straight. You can be direct. You know, you don't have to... Yeah, yeah. But say you come to Slovakia and you were saying, oh, hi to everyone, you remember, on the street.
(19:51):
you're being nice because that's just who you are. I said, don't do it. It's just, it can come across like you're looking for trouble. Or if you ask someone at the cashier in the shop, oh, what's your plan for the evening? Back home, they will look at you like, the hell? It's not your business, yeah? But saying that, you could say that for being in London. There is, you know, you could be walking down the street
(20:18):
And if you're smiling too much, people would be kind of, are you okay type thing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it depends. Yeah, but I'd still be myself and I'd still, if I'm smiling, I'm smiling. If you don't like it, don't look at me or turn away or, you know. If I bring something positive to something and you don't take that well,
(20:44):
That to me is slightly on you, even if there's a cultural kind of divide or cultural difference in that. You need to understand this is just who they are. Yeah, I'm not taking anything bad from it. I just understand it for what it is. You have to be careful, though, because there are some, especially nonverbal behaviors that can be offensive sometimes.
(21:11):
In other cultures or that can communicate something other than what you intend. I remember years ago when I was in college, I took a couple study tours to Israel, Greece, Turkey, over in that area. And I was 19. And I didn't know that in Israel, when a woman makes direct eye contact with a man, it's like saying, you want to go back to my place or yours. Right.
(21:41):
Um, whereas we make eye contact, direct eye contact in the United States, you know, all the time, that's considered to be what you want to do when you meet people. Even if you're just passing in the street, you make direct eye contact and you smile, uh, or you might, I mean, depending again, there's a difference between I live in the South and it's different in the South than in the North of the United States. Um,
(22:05):
So a friend and I were walking around and, you know, we're talking to people and we're smiling, making eye contact. And we got kind of into some awkward situations until somebody told us that, you know, how our nonverbal communication was being interpreted. And we were like, my goodness, we, you know, we didn't know. So I understand the point of what Yao is saying, that you don't necessarily have to change and not smile just because
(22:34):
you know, people might think strangely of you and yet on the other hand, you do have to be careful because there can be some behaviors that communicate something different or in some way could be offensive in another culture. Yeah. Absolutely. Don't worry, it's not offensive in how it's just weird. It's like, it's, it, it comes with like you're looking for trouble. Why are you smiling at me stranger?
(23:00):
Yeah. And, you know, the small talk, I've often thought about small talk because we do that. We do that in the States as well. You know, you pass somebody, you say, hi, how are you? And you expect them to say, oh, fine. How are you? Right. You know, what would happen if you say, hi, how are you? And they actually tell you legitimately how they are. You know, I am having an awful day. You know, I'm having a hard time with my boss. My kids are, you know, and they stopped you.
(23:27):
and actually talk to you for five minutes to tell you how they were doing, right? We would all be shocked. This is us, yeah. How are you? Because we just expect, it's in passing, right? You expect you're just going to say it and they're going to respond, oh, fine, how are you? And you're just going to keep going and not have this be an entire conversation. So it is interesting when you think about even that, how it can be different. Yeah, yeah.
(23:53):
I don't know where I got it from, but there was something I heard. It was a very, very long time ago. And it was, you know, obviously this is me going on a little bit of a tangent. And it was about a young lad who goes to school.
(24:14):
doesn't connect with anybody he is a bit of a loner he you know just every single day is that day where he he tries to connect but he doesn't connect and I
The moral of it goes along and along and then one day he's going to have a complete meltdown. But for the first time ever, someone turns around and says hi and or he says hi and they say hi and they connect and they say hi and how's your day? And they actually go into a bit more of a conversation. It changes his trajectory, you know, his life path.
(24:51):
plan or you know something along those lines um that interaction was enough to kind of change the way that that person deemed how life was and how he just ought to just used to how life is if i'm if i turn around and i say and i said this to you if i turn around and say hi if i feel that someone at that moment meets that moment where they say oh actually i'm
(25:23):
And I can do it. If I can't do it, then I'll say, oh, I'm really sorry. I see you, you know, please. I hope things are good. But if I can, I'm more than, that's the thing. I'm more than happy to have this conversation. And I enjoy that interaction. And I love that. That's you. Yeah. It's the Ghanaian in you. No, I don't think that is the Ghanaian in me. I think that's me. Who?
(25:50):
It can be personality. I mean, we've talked about how you're a very empathic person. And so, yeah, that can be part of it. I do think it does tie into your culture. One of the things you were going to talk about was masculinity versus femininity. So feminine cultures are much more concerned about nurturing, caring support.
(26:14):
And I would say probably a lot of African cultures are more feminine in characteristic, whereas like Slovakia would be definitely more on the masculine side of that particular cultural value. So that I think could be part of it where you just have that natural tendency to want to support, to nurture if you have the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah.
(26:43):
So that's the next C value. Masculinity versus... Masculinity is more about assertiveness, dominance, what we would consider to be masculine traits. I mean, I kind of hate to use that term, but stereotypical masculine traits.
(27:04):
And it doesn't mean that if a culture is masculine, that the men are more masculine. It just means that the traits they value are more stereotypical of masculine traits versus a feminine culture where the values that they prize are more typical of what we would consider to be stereotypical feminine qualities. Like I said, nurturing, caring, supportiveness. And so...
(27:30):
people can be influenced by those values that are represented in either extreme. So I already mentioned, I think a lot of African cultures would be more feminine. A lot of Hispanic cultures are more feminine in their characteristic, whereas a lot of Northern European and the United States are probably more on the masculine side.
(27:53):
Um, so I would say that probably as a general rule, we would be shocked if somebody stopped and wanted to talk to us. If we just said, hi, how are you? And they actually started telling us, I do think there would be people like Yao who would, who would stop and, and want to, um, engage in that conversation. Um, but I think it would depend too on the situation, um,
(28:18):
Yeah, exactly. You know, and a lot of factors. I consider myself to be a pretty empathic person. I enjoy helping people, but I'm not necessarily going to stop and have a conversation with every person I meet for that reason. And that's definitely a cultural impact on what would be my natural personality. Mm-hmm.
(28:48):
Now, it makes me think, like, who we are, really, because on the surface, we have these walls, yeah? Like, don't come close to me. But then I believe that our, no, I know that our relationships, I mean, friendships and connections, and they're much stronger than...
(29:10):
in many different countries, I don't want to offend anyone, so I'm not going to be specific, but I can see that for us, friends are like family. It's like once you get close to a Slovakian, then those relationships are solid, like we will die for you. I haven't seen that anywhere else. So what is it then? It's like the surface level is very cold,
(29:38):
but then underneath it's much stronger connections than... I don't know that that fits specifically into one of the values. It's almost like
you have an overlying masculine kind of presentation that, that becomes more feminine as you get to know people. But I still think, I still think there would be a difference in the fact that like you said, it's once you get to know people, they were the same way. We've got all kinds of people that we end up, end up adopting and, and bringing into our family. And I would say a lot of Americans would do the same thing. Um,
(30:10):
But it's, but we have to get to know them first. I think in a lot of more feminine cultures, there's, there's less of that, like, we're going to keep you at distance until we know you and then we embrace you. It's like we embrace everybody. So yeah, I think that.
We still have that masculine tendency, even though eventually we end up being very supportive and nurturing. I think that even you didn't understand for a long time, Yao, that why am I so...
(30:44):
I don't think I'm cold, but it can come across that way, yeah? For someone, say, people in the shop, they like to talk. And I make it clear, like, no, no talking, no asking questions. It depends on my mood as well. But normally, I don't like to chat to strangers in the shop. And that shows, I think, that I radiate that energy.
(31:10):
And sometimes I feel that you felt like I was being a bit cold to people.
But now you understand it more like it's just this what it is. I think you've changed quite a bit. I think you... I've adjusted to the UK mentality and culture. And that's something that we talked about is, so yes, there's a certain level at which you manage these differences through accepting that the differences are there, but you also can...
(31:42):
make what's called a third culture. That is the two of you in your relationship determine what your culture is going to be. And you may end up blending, excuse me, elements from both of your cultures.
to be able to make it work for you to live together. So I'm sure that both of you are making changes from what would be traditionally your culture, just because you know that making those changes make life easier, cause less conflict, make you more connected in your marriage. And that's really the goal, right? You want to keep who you are. You shouldn't have to change every single thing you are just to please your spouse.
(32:26):
On the other hand, there are some things that we can work to change and our spouses can work to change and we meet in the middle and we find a much deeper, much stronger, much healthier connection in doing that than when we stubbornly stick to, well, this is how I am and you should love me as I am. Well, yes, you should. But is there something that I can do to make my marriage better?
(32:54):
I love that. I suppose it's kind of like the times when I didn't think your jokes were that funny. And then with time, I've had to kind of compromise and make you feel that some of those jokes are funnier now, but they're still not funny. So you pretend.
(33:15):
Sometimes you just have to do these things. It's your love language. Sorry. You're totally right. It's an appreciation of the other person. Even her attempt at humor. Appreciating that is still value. Brilliant. My jokes are hilarious. It's just UK people can't get it. We'll work on it. Brilliant. Brilliant.
(33:46):
I love you UK people, by the way, just for the record. I love you all. So that leaves us with the third C value, cultural value. I'm getting better. Yeah. So there are other cultural values and they could impact how you communicated the marriage. But we decided to talk about the ones that I think would impact communication the most. And this one specifically is high versus low context communication. So communication
(34:16):
When you think about this, it can be a little bit confusing. You've got to think in a high context culture, you have to rely a lot on the context of communication in order to understand it. Whereas in a low context culture, you do not have to rely a lot on context to understand it. So low context cultures tend to be very direct verbally.
(34:40):
So the primary communication comes through the verbal channel. There is still nonverbal that reinforces that, but you don't have to understand the relationship. You don't have to look at where the communication is occurring. You don't have to know all of these other aspects of context to understand what's being said. It's pretty direct. You hear the phrase, you know, I say what I mean and mean what I say. That's low context communication.
(35:10):
And again, I would say most of the United States is more on the side of the low context. I would say probably Slovakia is also in that category. High context communication, you really have to understand all of the different contexts that are playing into it. So where is the communication happening? Who is there? What is the status of the people who are communicating? Are they trying to save face?
(35:39):
In what they're saying, that is, they don't want to present a negative identity for the culture as a whole. So they're going to say something that that may seem even contrary to what they actually think.
But if you understood all of the context and very subtle nonverbal cues, you would then be able to understand what they're communicating. And that would be a lot of Asian cultures, again, would be very far on the side of high context so that you have to really understand all of the different aspects of the communication because what is said is not what is meant.
(36:15):
And if you take things at face value for the words themselves, you're not going to understand the message correctly. And this is very valuable as well in relationship, no? Because people can get frustrated like, oh, why don't you just say it? Yeah, but it's just different culture, different. It's not that they are not capable of
(36:42):
saying what they have on their mind. It's just different culture and that can be very helpful for people to understand that. You can miss a lot, can't you? Depending on what
end of the spectrum and things. Maybe people are like that at the beginning. I can't just remember, to be honest, like when you didn't say something directly, maybe I got angry or frustrated, like, oh, why can't you just say, but it doesn't mean that you are not capable or not intelligent enough to communicate. It's the culture and that can be very liberating to understand. One of the main strategies to improve your listening is to look. And that's
(37:25):
And that would apply to everybody because we still, I mean, even in the United States, we would say that about two-thirds of a message's meaning is communicated through the nonverbal channel. So we still use all these different nonverbal codes that are going to modify, support, possibly contradict. But the importance of that to interpreting the message is
(37:50):
And all of those other aspects of context I mentioned are not as important as they would be in a high context culture. You probably need to rely more about 90 to 95% on the context and the nonverbal communication. So one of the ways in which you can improve your listening is by looking, right? You got to use your eyes to get all those nonverbal cues in addition to being aware of
(38:17):
how a person from that culture communicates. So the awareness of it, if you're in a business and you're going to travel to another culture, you should do some online searching to find out how they communicate differently and be aware of those differences so that you can adjust accordingly. Obviously, in a marriage, being aware of them is going to help you
(38:40):
move more towards what what I'd already mentioned which is that third culture I'm trying to find a middle ground that works for you guys to communicate it successfully I think this is the secret to a successful marriage like from different cultures not that first of all to that would be my advice to anyone to study the other culture try and understand it as much as you can
(39:03):
Talk to Melissa. Talk to Melissa, obviously. And that goes without saying. And then find your own, the third culture. I love that so much. But I think lots of people underestimate the importance of studying that culture. And we did as well. You don't think that it's going to be that important, but it is because it will help you to understand the other person on a completely different new level.
(39:31):
And it will make things so much easier for you both. Well, and really, we should study our spouses, period, right? Oh, 100%. I mean, we should study them, their personality, their background, their culture. And even if you feel like you really know your spouse, as time passes and you experience life together, you're going to grow, you're going to change. So a healthy marriage is going to include
(39:59):
the two of you having a lifelong study of each other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Does that include Estelle? Maybe you need to put Estelle on a playlist and just occasionally pop it on so that it's like, oh, this is a special song. I remember this song. You American boy. What would you say? What is your advice to people in a cinema? I'm just curious because how many...
(40:33):
From the things that we learned from you, Melissa, even if we went through, you know, if people went through kind of understanding other people's cultures, would they at some level still be able to make, you know, connect those dots, you know, dot those I's, cross those T's and things and make those connections that actually this culture exists?
(40:59):
has this about it. And so this is the reason, you know, I think what you did when we, you know, obviously when we're having our conversations is you bring it to the forefront, we understand it. And then we start having our eureka moments and things when you're like, oh, okay. So when you were doing that and you were trying, I missed everything.
(41:21):
The, you know, the subconscious, the movement that you were doing and stuff around it was actually reinforcing what you were trying to say. And I didn't catch that. And so I misinterpreted what you were saying by doing this. You know, those things, I'm not sure whether you can always do that by just researching. I think sometimes it does take that other person to kind of bring that to the forefront. And obviously you do that really well, very, very well.
(41:51):
Thank you. No. And we don't get any commission just for the record. No. We should maybe ask. No, it's just had such a positive impact on our relationship, which is obviously... Situationship. Yeah, it is situationship after a stealth thing. So, no, no.
(42:12):
It's just, yeah, I sometimes wonder, it's great that, you know, your partner would want to learn more about you and it will naturally happen. I don't always see that even with that learning, whether sometimes they will always identify that because of that, this is why that person does such a certain thing. Yeah.
(42:36):
No, I agree with you completely. I mean, I was just doing some, I was using chat GPT to do some research. So I've created a visual model of my program, the Couples Communication Cure. And I love the model. And I thought, you know, it's almost so simple what you need to fix.
(42:56):
to have a healthy marriage when it comes to your communication. It's you need to understand your spouse. You need to communicate clearly verbally and non-verbally. You need to listen effectively. You need to manage the conflict that you have after all of those things are corrected. And then you need to work to keep a priority on your marriage and stay connected. Those are the five components of my program. And you can say that, and it's not like any of that is world shattering. Like
(43:23):
I never knew that listening was so important to a healthy marriage. Everybody knows that. So why don't we have healthy marriages? Why do 50% of American marriages end in divorce? I'm not sure what it is across the globe, but I'm sure it's pretty high. Well, it can be that you've got spouses who just don't want to put the effort into working on it. I mean, that is definitely the case. But I think there's a lot of people who are really committed to their marriages and they understand that.
(43:51):
what they need to do. They don't know how to do it. And so that's where I step in that I'm trying to help you not only understand, okay, this is what you need to do, but how do you do it? How do you put this into practice into your actual marriage so that you can make changes and form new habits that are going to then impact the rest of your marriage, right? Because my goal is not to have you guys work with me for the rest of your life.
(44:20):
My goal is to teach you the skills that you need to develop a healthy marriage, just like we do with our physical bodies, right? You know, we know what we need to do to keep our bodies healthy. So sometimes you need somebody to help you find the right exercise program, find the right diet. And once you do that, then it's just a matter of putting those things into practice and turning them into habits. Yeah. It's not easy though, is that? No.
(44:50):
Is being physically healthy easy? No. Exactly, yeah. Depends how old you are. I mean, maybe it is for a few people, but it's not for me. I totally agree.
So Melissa, tell us about your free resource I mentioned at the beginning and where people can find you. Yeah, so you can go to the communication doc. It's thecommunicationdoc.com. And on the menu bar, there's a contact. So if you hit the contact button and email me and tell me you listened to this podcast, I can email you the inventory I created, which allows you to...
(45:33):
basically rate where you fall based on your culture, on these different cultural values, and then try to identify and think about the ways in which it impacts how you communicate in your marriage. So if this specifically interests you, you can have that option as well as I have several other resources available on my website. There's one for conflict. There's a masterclass about four thoughts that can destroy your marriage.
(45:58):
And on the main page, there's a video you can watch called the three minute fix, which is a quick little intro to what I do and a great little jewel of information that you can use right away to help with conflict. So I have all kinds of resources available there. Amazing. Just realize one thing we can just quickly mention how these differences in the culture impact the parenting.
(46:24):
But because many of our listeners are parents, but I think that it's all connected. Like what we already mentioned, it's all connected. Like there is no specific way to parent. There's no right and wrong answers. Yeah. I mean, it's not, well, within reason. Right. There's no...
(46:48):
But you're going to want to teach your children the values that are important to you, right? So that's where that third culture is really important because if Yao wants to teach your boys to consider people around them, to always be aware of the people around, to always stop and take time to listen to people, to be aware of people who are hurting and not be focused on themselves, and you're
(47:17):
Teaching them more like your background where your family is so important and this really needs to be your priority. You're going to be confusing them. They can't do both at the same time. Right. So you find that third culture that both of you can accept and teach your boys that culture and that becomes your own culture.
(47:42):
culture of how you think, you know, how the values you want your children to be raised with. Yeah. Yeah. I think the most important thing is to be willing to have an open mind and not be like, my way is the only way. Yeah. Because then you're screwed. So that's the way forward. Yeah. Especially when you have an interracial marriage or, and in our case, it's not just different cultures, different race. So it's
(48:11):
doubly... I don't want to say hard. No hard. What's the right word? Doubly... Challenging? Challenging, yeah. So...
Now, this has to do with disability, not with culture, but I love this story. So I have a I had a friend when I was working on my Ph.D. I'm I'm legally blind. My friend was disabled because she had cancer. So she had had a knee operation and like a knee replacement and actually part of her leg taken out. And she wore this big blue brace that went from almost the top of her thigh down past her knee.
(48:47):
And so she told me this story that when she was in Florida, which is where we were both going to school, she went to Disney World. Obviously in Florida, it's hot. And she a lot of times would wear pants to hide the brace because she found that it attracted a lot of negative attention, almost like a stigma where people would automatically assume and usually ask her, oh, what did you do to yourself? So
(49:11):
So they would usually assume that she had done something, gotten, you know, had some kind of a sporting accident or something. That's why she had to wear the brace. And she didn't always feel like explaining the whole cancer situation. So she's wearing shorts. She's at Disney. She's sitting on a bench. There's a little boy with his mother. He's about four. He notices her brace.
(49:34):
And she's like, oh, great, here we go. So he walks over to her and says, you know, points at it and then looks at his mom and says, what's that? And she expected, my friend expected that the mother was going to be embarrassed, you know, oh, don't point things out, that type of thing. Or maybe, you know, just respond kind of in a more objectifying way that most people did. But the mother's response was really beautiful. And it was, well...
(50:02):
It's like a big blue bandaid. And the boy looked at her, my friend, and my friend shook her head. And she's like, yeah, it's like a big blue bandaid. And the boy turned around and walked off and thought it was the most normal thing ever. And I love that picture when it comes to difference, whether it be culture, whether it be gender, whether it be race, whether it be disability. It's just, she was able to relate it to something that the boy understood.
(50:33):
He understood band-aids. You put a band-aid on a boo-boo. She has a boo-boo. She has a big band-aid on it. Instead of making it this big deal like it's something to be feared, to avoid, to not talk about. And I think that's where we really want to cross those barriers of it's just different. Yeah. Oh, I love that story. Yeah.
(50:58):
It's not often that you can find the right words in that moment, but yeah. Most people would feel awkward and then it makes the situation even like, oh, there is something bad about it. Oh, it's normal. I love that.
So I think this is a perfect way to wrap it up with this story. Did you want to say anything? Yeah, I'm willing to play a stealth with the kids every Sunday for...
(51:29):
Five minutes. We dance together to it. Okay, that's a bit too much. We'll work towards that. So thank you. Thank you so much, Melissa. This was amazing. Amazing. That's our words officially now. We're not even trying to change it anymore. It's just what we say. Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. And we share all the links to Melissa's website and all the socials in the description of this episode.
(51:57):
And if you enjoyed it, you know what to do. Share it far and wide because you never know who needs it. And if you enjoyed it, also leave us a review, please. And a like and a good review and I don't know what else. And by the way, subscribe. Yeah. The sponsor spot is still open. Yeah. It's just...
(52:21):
Oh, okay. Yeah, The sponsor. The spot for a sponsor. Oh, yeah. Just throwing that in casually. Wow. Clearly, we're manifesting other things as we go along as well. So what we're talking about is great content. So it's coming. It is. Thanks so much and see you in two weeks. Thanks, Melissa. And thank you, everybody. Take care. Bye. KEY POINTS Q: Who is the guest featured in this episode? A: Dr. Melissa Cancel, an expert in communication in relationships. Q: How does culture influence marriage according to Dr. Melissa Cancel? A: Culture influences communication styles, values, and expectations, which can create challenges in marriage if not understood and managed. Q: What is the difference between individualistic and collectivistic cultures? A: Individualistic cultures focus on the success and achievement of the individual, while collectivistic cultures prioritize the success and happiness of the group or community. Q: Which cultural value does Ghanaian culture tend to align with, individualism or collectivism? A: Ghanaian culture tends to be more collectivistic or group-minded. Q: What is the significance of understanding cultural differences in communication for couples? A: Understanding cultural differences helps couples communicate effectively, minimize conflict, and build a stronger relationship by appreciating each other's perspectives. Q: What are masculine and feminine cultural values as explained in the podcast? A: Masculine cultures value assertiveness, dominance, and stereotypical masculine traits, while feminine cultures value nurturing, caring, and supportiveness. Q: What is the difference between high context and low context communication? A: High context communication relies heavily on context, nonverbal cues, and indirect messages, common in many Asian cultures. Low context communication is direct and explicit, common in cultures like the United States and Slovakia. Q: What advice does Dr. Melissa Cancel give for couples from different cultures? A: She advises studying each other's cultures, understanding communication styles, and creating a 'third culture' that blends elements from both backgrounds to build a healthy relationship. Q: What free resource does Dr. Melissa Cancel offer to listeners? A: She offers a cultural values inventory that helps couples identify where they fall on cultural dimensions and understand how it impacts their communication. Q: How do cultural differences impact parenting in intercultural marriages? A: Parents may have different values and approaches based on their cultures, so it's important to create a shared culture or approach that both agree on for raising children. Q: What is the importance of lifelong learning about your spouse according to the podcast? A: Because people grow and change over time, couples should continuously learn about each other's personality, background, and culture to maintain a healthy marriage.
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