August 20, 2025 • 48 mins
What happens when your child’s race isn’t your own?
In this raw and eye-opening episode, we explore the unspoken challenges of parenting across racial lines.
Joined by Sarah Wood, a fellow white mum raising mixed-race children, we dive into the complex realities of navigating identity, having tough conversations, and confronting the biases that society (and sometimes we) hold.
This isn’t about having all the answers - it’s about learning, listening, and showing up for our children in ways that truly honour who they are.
Whether you’re parenting across race or simply want to raise more empathetic, aware kids, this episode will challenge what you think you know - and leave you with powerful takeaways you can start using today.
With love, Ivana & Yaw
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(04:00):
avoidance leads to ignorance and insults too. Where is he from? Is he adopted? Can he speak English? You can't be his mom. He's a different race. All said to his face. Educate. Do the work. Be an ally. Stop the heart. All said in front of my son, bit by bit. Damage will be done. The health visitor calling him a hybrid. Racism started only a few days afterbirth Education allyship know its worth. Please white people learn for yourself. The history, the brutality, the contribution, the beauty. Then discuss the change needs to start with us white people, educate. Do the work. Be an ally. Stop the heart. He's only seven. How much more before he has grown? 2023. Yet we are still here. Two racist insults in a wake.
(05:00):
What lies ahead is what I fear. Please, white people educate. Do the work. Be an ally. Stop my child's heart. Please. Please. White people. Oh God, I think this is gonna be a long episode. Do you know what? I'm raging It really powerful. It's really powerful. I'm raging. , and I'll cry at the same time. Listen these things we know, you, you guys, you're living through it and you probably have yourexamples, but, uh, it happened three different occasions. Three different times, uh, different children saying to my son. You're brown like poo. And , he came home and he told me, and you know it's not the children's fault, they're of course they parents. Yeah. They don't dunno what they're saying as risks, they dunno that. But if I heard, 'cause the school will have told the parents of those children, if
(06:00):
I'd heard my son or daughter had said that to someone, I would've reached out. Do you know what I mean? Old school reach out and say, listen, I'm sorry Johnny said this, or whatever. No, not one parent reached out when that happened. And trust. Yeah. And the school, I, uh, talked to the school about it. Eventually a after the third time we went in to talk to the school about it. And we had a meeting with the school and they said some ignorantthings actually. There's a lot of education that needs to happen, so that's the main kind of. Message that I hope comes across in my poem is it's just about learning for yourself these things, or just being open to have conversations. We're not always gonna say the right thing. We're not always gonna know, know about these things, you know? Mm-hmm. The skills said the wrong things to us, but it's because if, if you're not seeing this and you're
(07:00):
not, , educating yourself on these things and you're not dealing with it, maybe. On a, you know, a daily basis or even a, a yearly basis mm-hmm. Then you don't know what to say, you know? Yeah. And it's just about that the poem is just about being open, educating yourself, you know, the change, the change needs to happen with white people. They, you know, we need to get better at educating herself on these things and, and, and being active allies and, and kind of, you know, uh.Unlearning because all the stuff we've learned through history is it's, you know, it's all, it's all, , it's an unlearning that needs to happen. The history books have been written by the victors, you know, . We need to, I don't know. You know, I'm, I'm muddling out my words because I feel passionate about these things. You know? Do you know what we, we gonna, we are gonna talk about the education and what we need to do in a minute, but I would like to go back to what you said
(08:00):
about the school. You, you mentioned that they, they said something ignorant back. Do you wanna Yeah, you don't have to, but because I like to share. Exactly. No, I don't, I don't mind, I'm not naming the skill or anything, but so. My partner and I challenged it 'cause my partner experienced racism growing up. And you know, he was very much, we need to tackle this now we need to speak to the skill because I don't want this to be my son's experience, so I want the skill to be on it.And if these, if they, if my son experiences things, they tackle it effectively, you know, so it doesn't become, yeah. An issue and it doesn't become his experience. I want his experience that's gonna be positive. Yeah. And you know, at the time when this happened, he was the only brown kid in his class, so mm-hmm. He's, when someone says that to him, he's got to find the strength. And thankfully he has got so much confidence in himself, and I've raised him to know about his dual
(09:00):
heritage and, and he's proud and so proud, quite rightly of who he is, that he found the strength to be like. What are you saying? Go away, you know, but, mm. That needs to come from a, a, a strong sense of identity and, , the skill need to help with that. They need to help teach people about diversity, et cetera, because we can't rely that people get this in the home. Yes, some people will, but some people won't be talking about these things in the home. So that's why it'sso important, the skill. Celebrates diversity, you know, has representation in the books that it uses or the resources, et cetera. So anyway, we went into the school to talk about this. , a very well-meaning deputy head teacher met us and she said to us, oh, don't worry. I, I'm reassuring you, I've, I've dealt with this. , and I said, oh, can I ask, how did you deal with it? Well, I took the child that said it aside and I said to him, how would you feel if someone said to you,
(10:00):
you're white, like poo? So she actually thought this was a way to deal with the situation, and I was kind of flabbergasted, you know, at the time I was really flabbergasted and I said. Right. Where are you going with this? And she said, you know, and I said to him, and he looked at me and he said, well, I can't be white like poo because poo is brown. And she said, ah, but bird poo isn't. And she actually thought this was a way to tackle the situation. Andshe and I looked at her and I said, look. You're very well meaning here. I says, but yeah, you've missed the point entirely. I said, you reduced it down to almost a com. I mean, it was, it was a comical level. I said to her, you need to talk about these things. You need to say to the child, you're not what you're saying. You're not meaning to be racist, but what you said was a racist thing and it's, you need to call it for what it is. Why are we so, mm.
(11:00):
Afraid of say, speaking and dealing with these things, and I said, what you've done, you can never compare that white child's experience to my child's experience. I said, when you said that to that child, he can look behind his shoulder and he's got another 28 kids in the class that look like him. So when you say someone says you're white like poo, he can laugh it off and say, of course I'm not. What are you talking about? I said, when someone says it to my son. There's no one elsein the class that looks like him, so he's got to find the strength himself to laugh it off and to brush it off. I said, you can never compare that child's experience to my child's experience. And by you doing that, you're, you're not dealing with it. You need to. Call it out for what it's, I said, I'm sorry. I think you need anti-racism training. Mm-hmm. But you know, you know the funny thing, you know, I don't blame the teacher at all. No. Because if I hadn't had mixed race children,
(12:00):
maybe I would've said something similar. Because if you're not living in that world, you have no idea about these things. Yeah. Have no idea. And that's, yeah. So that's how can you educate if they're not educated themselves? Yeah. Yeah. But in 2023, they should be, especially if they're an Yeah, of course. Hundred percent. Yeah. Go and do some anti-racism training, in my view. Yeah. And I basically told her that that day she was quite a well-meaning. Women, but I had to tell her whatracism was. You know, it's not just people, uh, we know these things. It's not just people calling names, but it's all the structures in place. It's all the systemic stuff. Yeah. The place that it comes from that then generates, uh, behaviors. Yeah. That people we're not even aware they have or it takes, yeah. It takes years though, unconscious before they comprehend. Yeah. What's your, what's going on in your head when you, when you're listening to this. It's just, it's, it's sad
(13:00):
because, you know, you know that kids sometimes they, they don't. I get what they're saying. They don't Yeah. Understand the impact and stuff of what they're saying. They may feel it's like some kind of a joke and things. , but yeah, it does, it does have impact. Yeah, it absolutely does. , it's funny 'cause , Mac was in a similar situation to, , I was, when I was growing up interms of, . My schooling from age of 12 onwards was primarily a white school. Yeah. , and you know, there's a lot of, there was a lot of little digs here and things and stuff that happened. I gave as good as I got things, obviously. Yeah. You learn, you learn to kind of roll with the punches and stuff sometimes. Yeah. Like an armor type thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You had to become
(14:00):
resilient to certain things and stuff that was said. , otherwise it would get to you. And you know, these are the things that, , people don't always kind of realize. You still take some of those things on with you, you know, you take Yeah. Certain things on because you suddenly start expecting that certain things like that could happen as you go on. Yeah. , and it's. I, what, what you both said about the teacher., I appreciate, I, I really do appreciate that. You know, with yourself and yourself and Tom, , like Ivana and myself and things, we've brought our children into a predominantly white area. , yeah. That, that's not very diverse. Yeah. You know, I, I totally appreciate that. They may not have experience and stuff of this, but it's always, there's, there's no way that you could turn around and say to me that.
(15:00):
A teacher in this day and age shouldn't have some level of training. Yeah. Even if they're out of. Their depth slightly because they're actually in that experience as it's happening. You know, C, certain things you can say, and you don't mean to say it, but you'll me, like you said, I can totally understand that you probably absolutely meant well. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. That's the worst thing. Yeah. That she meant Well, she meant, she meant well. And you know, she wasquite proud to tell me that this is how she handled it, and both Tom and I looked at each other and exchanged glances like, oh my God, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not way to deal with this. Like you can't compare ex experience that way. It's just not. Mm-hmm. I think the good thing is that. The more white people raise black children. Yeah. Yeah. I think we are the ones who can, yeah. Help the world and change the world because we understand it's, it's both sides now. Like how
(16:00):
naive we were and how it actually is. It's that continuous open talking. So yeah, the fact that, you know, Mac went through that. Is, you know, it's not great at all. And like you said, no, his confidence around it, , maybe kind of shook for a little bit. But if he's confident in himself that resilience breeds character and stuff, you don't want that to breed his character, but it gives him some, some level. But the talkinglike this, this conversations and stuff that, you know, you may not necessarily have, . And hopefully people listening to this, the, the, the conversations that people are hearing from parents who are experiencing this. Yeah. 'cause some people will turn around and say, well, you know, I had some level of, . Not abuse. I don't want to use too, too strong a word and stuff around it, but, , I've had some level of abuse when
(17:00):
you're grow. Growing up, yeah. It didn't affect me, but it's different. It's different from a lot of different angles and stuff, but the, the just explain for people who don't understand, we should explain how, how is it different? What do you mean? How is it different? Well, it's different for any, anybody. Like if, if, if you say you go in and, uh, you are a certain shape or a certain size. Mm. And somebody gets, ,teased or I don't wanna say abused 'cause that's, I feel that's bit too much of a harsh word, but they get continuously you, that leads onto traa and how you look at yourself and stuff. Yes. Some people may do something about that going forward, but that traa will. Predominantly stay with that person and stuff. Right. And you've different variance and stuff that, but like you say, Mackey in a situation where. You know,
(18:00):
if he's the only mixed race child and stuff there, mixed heritage, and he was, there's, it's the, the class is a little bit more diverse now. I think there's like three more kids. But yeah, back then he was the only one in the class. So you've got to come from a, a place of strength if you're hearing comments like that, to, to kinda brush them off and get on. Yeah. You know? , and, and do you think. Sorry, just while we are on the subject, I think that well, yeah, you're saying it's different when someonecomments on your shape Yeah. Or someone comments on who you are. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of differences. Yeah. There's a lot of differences from, yeah. So that's, that's what makes it different, I think. Okay. Go on, Sarah. Sorry. No, I, I agree. And it's hard, you know, because it's hard when. People like you are in your little bubble. Yeah. Like we've got our families. We love our families. You're out and about. You're minding your own business and you dunno when it's gonna happen, but it can happen
(19:00):
and you've got to arm your children to deal with it. And that's the reality. If Anna is what I would say Yeah. Is that you have to have conversations with your kids because of what? Can happen. So for example, that poem I, I wrote about other kind of examples of things that were said to Mac. We were sitting with the baby. , so this was recent as well, and I was breastfeeding the baby and we were sitting, Carmack had just finished his swimming lesson.I was breastfeeding the baby, minding her own business, and there was a girl waiting for her dad who was playing football. We were at a leisure center and she just came up and started talking to us. Now. She looked at Carmack, looked at me and she was like, is that your child? And I was like, yeah. , and she said it in such a, like, she was older, she was about 11 a kind of stroppy, preteen, just to paint you a picture. And she said, well, he can't be
(20:00):
your son. And I said, well, what do you mean you can't be my son? Of course he's my son. And she's like, but he's a different race. And that was what she said. And it was like. It, it, it, so, , I wasn't prepared. I wasn't prepared for it to come out and it just stung. 'cause I could see his little face, that heart, you know? And I, I was like, well, mm-hmm. I thought, right, okay, I'm gonna try and educate this, this young girl. 'cause her dad was nowhere to be seen. And I said, well, of course he's my son.I says, you know, uh, I'm white, his dad's black. So if you put the two of us together, then you get Cormac, don't you, Cormac? And, and he's like, yeah. Nodding, you know, and the girl, yeah. I was, I thought I can try and educate her a little bit here 'cause maybe she's just not being exposed. Different families or, yeah. She also commented on my breastfeeding and told me it was absolutely disgusting, which also like that age, she allowed, you know. Because she'd obviously never seen that before too. So I
(21:00):
tried to like educate her there too. But when her dad came out, so there, this is the key part. When her dad came out from playing football, I tried to reach out to him and I said, oh listen, , is this your daughter? And I said, I won't say her name. Uh, and he said, yeah, yeah. She'd been waiting on him. He'd been playing football for a while. And I said, oh, you should hear the things that he, she's been saying and I wanted to tell him, you know? Mm-hmm. Because I wanted, so he knew so he could maybetalk to her about these things and, and he just laughed and said, oh, I can only imagine. And he just didn't want to know. And that was mm-hmm. Was sad for me. 'cause I thought that was an opportunity. Mm-hmm. For, but I love it that you. Took the time and educated her because I, I see. This is what, yeah, because so many people don't do this. They think something, but if we don't speak out, how can we expect the change? Yes. So that's amazing that you did that. I appreciate. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's,
(22:00):
it's a difficult one because kids, you know. Kids sometimes say some random things and stuff. Sometimes, yeah, too. , and I've, it's not a great experience and stuff to have, you know, you could come across they are, they are kids and it's not greatest, but like you said, it's, if the kids aren't getting it, kids aren't having, you know, the experience or having those conversations with, you know, this. And this is what you were saying before about when is it gonna happen again? You arekind of, it's like you are on your tippy toes kind of waiting for something else to kind of happen. You know? You could be Yeah. Out on the street, you can be in shopping, you know, you could be doing anything and stuff, and this could happen to come. Yeah. And so, so after that I had to then, if you like, pick up the peasy. So I sat, I sat with Cormac and I said. Listen. Did, are you all right? And he, and you know, and I had a bit of, I said, you know, that girl, she's, she's a nice girl.
(23:00):
She doesn't, she just doesn't know anyone. , you know, who has a family that looks like ours? You know? And I had to do a bit of the picking up pieces because I felt like I needed to talk to him about it, to check he was okay. And also, actually, I know it's been funny, but the breastfeeding point too, because he's, that's what we do. It's natural. Mm-hmm. And for someone to call it out and go, Ugh, that's horrible. I had to say to them, no, it's not, it's, you know, it's just, it's people's choices and it's, it's just mm-hmm. Theway different people do things and some people are not exposed to way people bring up children in a different way and, you know. Mm-hmm. So we had a bit of a conversation, but. You have to do that sometimes and, and like you say, yeah, you never know. And, and you know, majority wise you go for life and you have nothing said. But it's just the odd little occasion where, and it stings 'cause you're not expecting it. Do you know what I mean? You're like, oh, there is again. Oh, geez. You've gotta pick up the pieces and have a bit of a
(24:00):
conversation. But the work is, I think the reality is if you have, uh, like you say, children of mixed, , then you have a duty to to educate them. Educate yourself so that you a hundred percent. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So you're prepared. Sarah? Sarah, what? Oh, sorry, go on. No, no, no, no. It was, no, no. Go on. Iana. Just wanted to ask, in your poem you mentioned. I hope I miss misheard, but did your Yeah. Health visitorcalled Yes. Yeah. A hybrid. Yeah. So he was only three days old and, , my ex-partner and I, we were pretty shocked by it. Yeah. She came round. , so I put that in the poem because these are all true experiences, all things that have been said. And, but in what context did she, did she say that she, we were talking, she came round, I think it was like. We'd just got out of the hospital. So, you know these home visitor visits
(25:00):
that happen mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When you come out to the hospital and, , I think it was when she was doing the Heal Crick test. I dunno if you remember that. You get like a test done to check mm-hmm. For, , oh God. Sickle cell disease. Yeah. I can't remember what she was saying, but she, she said it and we thought we'd misheard it first, but she says, oh, you know, with these hybrid babies. And we looked at each other and we both like shot each other at glance and we thought, surely we didn't hear that. And she said she wenton to say it about two or three more times. Yeah. This is like a trained health professional. And the thing is, we were so tired. Yeah. So exhausted. I mean, you've not met Martin, but you will. He is. He's lovely. And we were both equally shocked and tired and normally. You would've said something, you know, we would say something. We didn't, we didn't say something. We were just so, like, you're so shocked that you have speech to them. We were so tired. And in the situation that you're in and you're relying on this
(26:00):
person to give you information, you know, it's like a para relationship, isn't it really? Mm-hmm. , and I wish we had, you know, it's something that I wish I'd followed up and said to her, listen, don't use that word because it's education, isn't it? So it's like next time she goes to. A house that maybe has mixed heritage children that she, she doesn't use that. , but she, she used my, my blood, my blood's boiling now. Yeah, I know. It's,you know, it's not a car. We both, like, after she left, we, the first thing we said to each other was, what the hell, you know? What did we just hear? , but you know, that's, that's another thing that I guess is probably quite good to touch on is, , it's, it's these kind of systemic, uh, structures that, you know, I know, I know friends who their children are mixed race and they've been referred to jaundice clinics when their kids. Don't
(27:00):
have jaundice. , in fact, one time we were going along when Carmack was gonna get a checkup when he was first born, and the lady asked us if he had jaundice and we were like, no, no. He is just the way he's supposed to look. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's that kind of thing. And it probably doesn't happen now in like, , communities where there's more diversity. Yeah. But. Certainly when you're in communities that has less diversity than, , the, you know, some of theprofessionals, the way certain conditions present themselves on black skin is different to the way presents on white skin. And there can be some of these, uh, you know, miseducation and things. Yeah, I know like granula for example. My youngest, we got referred. , and I don't know if this happened to you guys, so it's probably what we got referred to a specialist for her eyes, because when she was born, her eyes were so dark. I mean, they weren't blue. They
(28:00):
were, they were really dark. Yeah. , and she didn't respond to the light test that they do, the reflex test that they do. . And, you know, that's a test that's performed in every baby. But yeah. , in the kind of majority population, white population in, in this part of the world, eyes respond in a certain way and hers didn't respond in a certain way. So we were referred to specialists and we had to wait six weeks, you know, to look. And, , my brother who has,, mixed Malaysian children, had the same thing happen twice with both his children. So he said to me. He reassured and said, oh, it's just because she's mixed. Honestly. Don't worry about it. And so I didn't worry about it. Yeah. And then when the appointment came around. The doctor, the eye doctor, he was lovely. He just, he reassured me and he was like, our eyes are perfectly fine. Oh God, you're another one. He said it's because the training manuals are
(29:00):
written by white people and he was as blunt as that, you know? So there are things that need to change. , even in this day and age, there are things that need to change that. . You know, diversity, it's awareness, it's education, it's, you know, and it's pos, it's, it's positive that. You know, highlighting it and Yeah. You know, we're not, it's not blame. It's not like, oh, you, you, yeah. It's not blame. Not at all. No. It's just, it'slike everything that, it's education, it's discussion like what you guys are doing, you know, but it's, it's, you've got to discuss these things for them to change. Mm-hmm. It's like absolutely. You've got put it out there for people to be aware of it, to then go, oh, right, right. Okay. We need to tackle that. We need to change that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Many people. Don't understand as well, as well as myself once that. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes
(30:00):
people are like, oh, I don't care what race you are or color you are. But that's not helpful as well because No, you need to acknowledge the race. Well, it shuts down the conversation about, doesn't it? It's almost like, why are you making a big deal outta this? We're not making a big deal out of it. We're we're just saying, you know, let, let's, and why shouldn't we make a big deal out anyway? I'm not, you know, I'm done apologizing. Yeah. , there, you know, if there's things that need to change, you need totalk about them and we need to change them because God, we've been talking about these things for hundreds of years and not enough action has happened. Mm-hmm. Others. There's still so much that needs to happen. Mm-hmm. Sarah, do you, do you also think or feel like you were, like I said that in previous episodes? Mm-hmm. That I feel like I was so naive before I had. Mixed race children before I met you, do you feel the same that you're, oh my God, yeah, because I'm, oh my God, I'm a diehard romantic. I'm a,
(31:00):
we softie and I'm an idealist, and so like age 16. Me thought the world now in 2024 would be so much different to the world. Mm-hmm. I'm not saying the world's awful. I love the world, you know, I love people and more good in the world than there's bad. Yes. But I thought race equality and various things that I'm passionate about would be more advanced than they're, and yes, I could feel like before, uh, you know, I venturedinto, like you say, being a mom to mixed race children. I didn't think these sorts of things would be said. You know, it, it flabbergasted me. Some of the idiocy. Staffed things that people say without thinking, like I've put it in the poem again. And, and another instance was I took my Wi Son to, , a TaeKwonDo class to try out, and he is an introvert, right? So that's a whole other podcast. But I've had to, I've had to learn
(32:00):
because I'm an extrovert and so. Uh, my son's an introvert, and so I've had to learn, you know, that he, he responds differently to things the way that I would respond, so mm-hmm. We were at this class, and the more that he's put on show, the more he goes into himself. So the teacher was bringing him to the front of the class to show him how to do the TaeKwonDo. It was like a taster session, and he just froze. He hated it. He hates being put at the front of anything, you know? Mm-hmm. .If he's at the back of the class and he's quietly been asked to get on with it and follow the steps, he would be fine with that. Okay. But as soon as he's moved in front, he just froze. Anyway, the point of this is I'm very Scottish, as you can hear. Uh, the, I spoke when I went into the class chatting away and when he froze, and the more he froze and the more he wouldn't do things, there was like. An older guy, I'm saying older guy. He was in his fifties, right? So whatever, if that's
(33:00):
older, younger, whatever, whatever you judge. He turned around and said, what's wrong with him? Is he okay? And then he started making a big deal of it. And he was like, does he speak English? Can he understand English? And I just looked at him and I was like, I, I gave him a frown. Now I wish I'd said something. This is a regret in my life because the rest of the class there. I heard him say this, no one challenged, and I left there so annoyed at myself that I didn't say, of coursehe speaks English. What do you mean? Why would you think he doesn't speak English? Why would you think he doesn't understand English? Mm-hmm. Only because of the color of his skin. He said that a hundred percent because he hired me. Scottish mom as soon as we walked in. Why would he be saying that? You know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I didn't reflect it on himself, so I didn't say, I kind of excused it. I was like, of course he does. You know, like this. Mm-hmm. And I should have said,
(34:00):
yes, he does. Why would you think he didn't? So that I could reflect on him so that he could say, I think he did say that. You did say that. Yeah, between the lines, you, you did say that, but it's hard in the moment. You know, we've probably all been there and there's probably things you wish you'd said and Mm, yeah. And of course, you know, you pick and choose battles and things as well, you know, , but I guess the, the kind of messageI was. There's certain times where probably it is good to speak up and it's, it's good to speak up. , definitely, you know, the allyship, the kind of, yeah. If you see an injustice mm-hmm. It doesn't be happening to you, but rather than like, just letting it slide, why not? Mm-hmm. Why sharing stories helps sharing stories. Yeah. Sharing stories. Yeah. Because if someone, the way I really got it, what it's all about, it wasn't Yahoo
(35:00):
trying to convince me. Mm-hmm. It was the stories he was telling. , yeah. Stories I saw around me and that's what actually opened my eyes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think sharing the stories can make a difference rather than us trying to. I think educate them like just, you know, you know what I mean? You bring it to life for people. I totally, yes. You've got all the theory books and things. You can read it and you know, I definitely think it's good to do that becausehistory is written by the victors, as I said, so it is good to. Have that, you know? Yeah. Because race is a social construct. There is no such thing, you know, we're all one race, we're all han. But it was socially constructed as a means to basically control people and to do horrible things to people. And, and that's the way I explain racism to Carmac. I'll say to him, some people are racist, you know, it's, it's not a nice way to be. It's a legacy from. Basically
(36:00):
days of old of. People trying to steal riches from other people. So they, they convinced people that other people were not as good as them. It is not, , it's got no place in a modern world. And if anyone, if you ever feel that anyone's ever doing that to you, you'd be proud of who you are. And you put them right. You know, and you tell mommy a teacher, et cetera. You've gotta kind break it down into well done. But you have to have these conversations. And itwas like my friend. Uh, a Black American guy at my work, he said to me, Sarah, you have to have this conversation with your son because it's gonna happen and you know you need, you need to talk to him about these things. It broke my heart to do that, you know, to explain, because like you say, I course, I always thought we'd be living in a world with no racism. No. You know, just everyone just uh, kind of utopia, everyone getting on. And uh, unfortunately it's,
(37:00):
you know, some people, some people live in that world. Yeah. Well, that's because I think as well, and I think that's to answer your question, and sorry, we're going around a bit, but to answer your question earlier around. I think a lot of white people, they do live in a bubble. 'cause if you're switched on, you're right on and mm-hmm. You know, you expect that everyone else is the same and they're not. Mm-hmm. Like sometimes in social media, if you're like, say you're a lefty or liberal and you look up allthese things, you're only getting channeled. News that people, yeah, that people that you're interested in. So you are therefore not seeing a lot of the kind of xenophobia, the Islamophobia, a lot of the really hateful things that are going on out there 'cause and so therefore you think it doesn't exist, do you think? Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And uh, do you feel the same, Sarah? I feel like I only realized I'm a wide race after I met Yao. I dunno if that makes sense, but I didn't really ever. Think
(38:00):
about race as such, like, I'm some race. I dunno if that makes sense, but now I understand actually I'm a white race. Does that make sense? I dunno, I I know what you're saying. Like it's, yeah, that, well, it's horrible. It's, yeah, I know. It's like, to me it was, it doesn't matter yet. We. Some color. I didn't see a race as a thing. Yeah, no, no. That has changed as well with Yeah, and the boys, of course. Yeah, of course. Of course. It's. It's complex. All ofit is really complex and Oh, yeah, yeah. I would then too, like, uh, depending on where you live as well. So if you live in a really diverse place, that definitely helps, you know? Mm-hmm. , my friend is Jamaican and she talks about Jamaica. I mean, it sounds amazing. And she's like, you know, it's a melting pot. No one cares. Yeah. Uh, you know. If you live in London, I'm sure as well, there's, there's so many different cultures, there's so much celebration, but
(39:00):
it's where if you're, , where there's less diversity, there's less awareness, and there can sometimes be that other thing going on. Yeah. Which isn't good, you know? But I would, I would say that it happens everywhere. It doesn't matter. It does. Yeah. It would matter. Yeah. And sometimes people think that in. Diverse cities like London, you can't, uh, face racism. But this is a myth. A million as well. One of the myths. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I even, I remember oncewhen I was really, I felt really depressed about this whole, uh, racism. When I, when I really, when I really understood what it's about, what, what boys can. What can happen to them? I don't wanna be mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like saying it's definitely gonna happen, but it is very likely. But yeah, once you realize that as a mom, it's awful. No. Especially if you didn't grow up with it. So it's like a huge new thing. A huge shock. Well, that, that's it. But I wanna, I, I said to,
(40:00):
let's just move to Africa so we don't have to face the racism. And he said to me, it's there as well. I was like, whoa. Everywhere. Everywhere. Can't escape it. Like you said, the only thing we can do is to make sure they are confident and strong enough in themselves because what else? Confident and empowered, and they can change the world. These kids. Yeah, these hybrid kids. As your husband said, they're the future, so yeah. They are, but we can also help aswell in the here and now. And it's, you know, such as what you're doing with the podcast. Hundred percent. Yeah. You know, that was my little chip in putting my chipping in with the poem and, , just to kind of get people talking and thinking about these things and just, you know, it's, it's. It's if you, , you can cha challenge things, so Yeah. But do it, you know, do it in a way that it's successful. So, like I say, with that girl, I, I try to bring it down to her
(41:00):
level and, and you, you can do it where you're not trying to antagonize people, but Exactly. You, you definitely need to challenge it. You know, it's, I'm not one that believes in just letting things slide, I think. Mm-hmm. You have, you have to stand up for what's right, basically. Yeah. If we don't, then we'll, yeah. From your perspective. Yeah. Yeah. How is it different, you having the kids with me? White person or you having kids with a blackperson? How would that be different? Chicken and egg, isn't it? How do, how do you, how do you know until you've gone through that experience? No, but do you think it's, it, it helps them in a way to be more resilient or to have different views or It's, it's not, it's not about the resilience. It's not about, , whether Well would they, would they have been different if they were black? Black because now they're mixed race? Would, would that have been
(42:00):
different then? No. No. Okay. It's, it's not, it's not about that. It's, it's the knowledge that people need to kind of get their heads around. Mm-hmm. If, and I, I'm taking a leap of faith and stuff on this, that if anybody had a child and their child is getting bullied or, you know, feeling in such a bad way in any, for anything, they would be fing. They would be feeling mm-hmm. They would, they'd beupset the fact that their child is going through anything. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's about people understanding and learning from it. And I mean, across the board, learning from how our, you know, we've got to make sure that we let our children know and make sure our children understand there are certain things that you can and can't do. We've gotta make sure that our children know, as you've both said, is
(43:00):
mm-hmm. You've got, you've gotta be confident in yourselves to understand that. Yeah. You know, you're gonna come across people that just aren't gonna like you because of Yeah. Whether it's, you know, , they're unhappy shaming or you're, you are sorry people that say bad things to you or unhappy people. That's what I tell the kids. If they're commenting on your appearance or they're commenting on, I said, they're not happy in themselves. So you just, they need to def Yeah. They're deflecting Aren, they, yeah, they deflecting happy. Absolutely. Because if you'rea happy person, you're too busy being happy and smiling to even mm-hmm. Want to worry about someone else. Like to put someone else out. You don't think it, and I, and I raise my kids and I say, if you've not got something good to say, don't say anything at all. And I. I like them. They, I don't hear the boys. They never really kinda bitch about other people. I don't like that. You know? And yeah, and, and, and so if they're hearing that from other people, you just look at them. I say to them, you just look at them and you just, like, water just bounces off
(44:00):
you, you just don't. Pay any heat tip because you know who you are. You know you're gorgeous. You know you're amazing. Mm-hmm. You've got so much going for yourself. You've gotta raise confidence kids, and when your kids are confident and so full of like, not full of themselves. Sorry, but you know what I mean. No confidence. Confident. Yeah. And they're sure of who they are and they're so proud of who they're like. My son, he's so proud to be, he's always like, I'm an African boy, but he's also proud to be ScottishIrish too. We celebrate everything in our house. We celebrate. Burns day. I've got a poem about Robby Burns off my sleeve. You know, I've got, uh, we celebrate that and we celebrate St. Patrick's Day because I'm part Irish. Yeah. And then we also have Ghana Independence Day as well, so he knows he's well-rounded. And I think that's what's important for our kids too. And I know you guys do that. Yeah. Know your culture. Yeah. Your kids know your cultures. Know who you are, be proud of who you're, and no one, and then
(45:00):
that's your. That's your like bulletproof vest. Yeah. If someone says something to you, really, oh, that's Yahoo's line. You know what I mean? I love that you said that. That's your line. And you said that really? You have nothing better to say. That's all you got. Yeah, I don't really, it's all in in that one word. Yeah, but you know what? I think they'll be even more proud of who they are when they're. Teenagers and they have all that attention fromgirls because of how they look. Oh, yeah. So that's good looking boys. As long as, as long as they've got each other. I, I mean like. Cormac in our case. Yeah. Boys. No, I just mean, yeah, the friends. Friends. Yeah. Yeah, the friends, you know, as they grow older they'll kind of interact. But I just, I just hope if people are listening to this, , I know people will be talking to kids. I think we have more. And when you're saying is it better, I think
(46:00):
people do talk a lot more, but we just mm-hmm. Need to make sure that we don't stop. We educate ourselves a bit more and talk a bit. Yeah, we have to. Hundred percent. We're not stopping, we're not going anywhere with this podcast. No, no. So it's all good. You're doing a great thing, guys. You know, it's like that's, that's, that's what's key to all of us is just. Talking because everyone has so much more in common than they do. Absolutely. You know, and that's, that's what's key iswhen you talk, you, you realize, and it's like all these silly things that are constructs and different, there's, everyone's just the same underneath it all. You know, like everyone's just trying to get through this thing called life that sounds like, I think that's a song isn't, I'm passionate about making the world and, you know, , in 2024, just. I didn't think these things would even be issues, you know? Yeah. Just like what you were saying, Ivana, so let's just keep talking so that
(47:00):
they no longer are issues in the future. Yeah. You know exactly this, this is the perfect words to, to finish this episode with one love, basically. One love. One love. Yeah. Oh, don't get me start. Next time I'll start singing Bob. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Maybe I'll, I'll start. No, I'm not gonna promise that. 'cause then next time you've got this recording and you'll expect me to start singing Bob to, yeah. To start this off. No. I'll just say hi to everybody. Oh, definitely.To dinner. Happy. Oh, t Brilliant. Okay. Thank you so much Sarah, for being here today. We had an amazing time with you. Thank you so much for being so open and honest. Uh, it's amazing. The only way to be, isn't it? We need to just absolutely open up about these things and, uh, it's the only way to make, make, yeah. Make a difference. Exactly. We can only start from ourselves. So you're doing an amazing job. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. And, and thanks guys for having me.
avoidance leads to ignorance and insults too. Where is he from? Is he adopted? Can he speak English? You can't be his mom. He's a different race. All said to his face. Educate. Do the work. Be an ally. Stop the heart. All said in front of my son, bit by bit. Damage will be done. The health visitor calling him a hybrid. Racism started only a few days afterbirth Education allyship know its worth. Please white people learn for yourself. The history, the brutality, the contribution, the beauty. Then discuss the change needs to start with us white people, educate. Do the work. Be an ally. Stop the heart. He's only seven. How much more before he has grown? 2023. Yet we are still here. Two racist insults in a wake.
(05:00):
What lies ahead is what I fear. Please, white people educate. Do the work. Be an ally. Stop my child's heart. Please. Please. White people. Oh God, I think this is gonna be a long episode. Do you know what? I'm raging It really powerful. It's really powerful. I'm raging. , and I'll cry at the same time. Listen these things we know, you, you guys, you're living through it and you probably have yourexamples, but, uh, it happened three different occasions. Three different times, uh, different children saying to my son. You're brown like poo. And , he came home and he told me, and you know it's not the children's fault, they're of course they parents. Yeah. They don't dunno what they're saying as risks, they dunno that. But if I heard, 'cause the school will have told the parents of those children, if
(06:00):
I'd heard my son or daughter had said that to someone, I would've reached out. Do you know what I mean? Old school reach out and say, listen, I'm sorry Johnny said this, or whatever. No, not one parent reached out when that happened. And trust. Yeah. And the school, I, uh, talked to the school about it. Eventually a after the third time we went in to talk to the school about it. And we had a meeting with the school and they said some ignorantthings actually. There's a lot of education that needs to happen, so that's the main kind of. Message that I hope comes across in my poem is it's just about learning for yourself these things, or just being open to have conversations. We're not always gonna say the right thing. We're not always gonna know, know about these things, you know? Mm-hmm. The skills said the wrong things to us, but it's because if, if you're not seeing this and you're
(07:00):
not, , educating yourself on these things and you're not dealing with it, maybe. On a, you know, a daily basis or even a, a yearly basis mm-hmm. Then you don't know what to say, you know? Yeah. And it's just about that the poem is just about being open, educating yourself, you know, the change, the change needs to happen with white people. They, you know, we need to get better at educating herself on these things and, and, and being active allies and, and kind of, you know, uh.Unlearning because all the stuff we've learned through history is it's, you know, it's all, it's all, , it's an unlearning that needs to happen. The history books have been written by the victors, you know, . We need to, I don't know. You know, I'm, I'm muddling out my words because I feel passionate about these things. You know? Do you know what we, we gonna, we are gonna talk about the education and what we need to do in a minute, but I would like to go back to what you said
(08:00):
about the school. You, you mentioned that they, they said something ignorant back. Do you wanna Yeah, you don't have to, but because I like to share. Exactly. No, I don't, I don't mind, I'm not naming the skill or anything, but so. My partner and I challenged it 'cause my partner experienced racism growing up. And you know, he was very much, we need to tackle this now we need to speak to the skill because I don't want this to be my son's experience, so I want the skill to be on it.And if these, if they, if my son experiences things, they tackle it effectively, you know, so it doesn't become, yeah. An issue and it doesn't become his experience. I want his experience that's gonna be positive. Yeah. And you know, at the time when this happened, he was the only brown kid in his class, so mm-hmm. He's, when someone says that to him, he's got to find the strength. And thankfully he has got so much confidence in himself, and I've raised him to know about his dual
(09:00):
heritage and, and he's proud and so proud, quite rightly of who he is, that he found the strength to be like. What are you saying? Go away, you know, but, mm. That needs to come from a, a, a strong sense of identity and, , the skill need to help with that. They need to help teach people about diversity, et cetera, because we can't rely that people get this in the home. Yes, some people will, but some people won't be talking about these things in the home. So that's why it'sso important, the skill. Celebrates diversity, you know, has representation in the books that it uses or the resources, et cetera. So anyway, we went into the school to talk about this. , a very well-meaning deputy head teacher met us and she said to us, oh, don't worry. I, I'm reassuring you, I've, I've dealt with this. , and I said, oh, can I ask, how did you deal with it? Well, I took the child that said it aside and I said to him, how would you feel if someone said to you,
(10:00):
you're white, like poo? So she actually thought this was a way to deal with the situation, and I was kind of flabbergasted, you know, at the time I was really flabbergasted and I said. Right. Where are you going with this? And she said, you know, and I said to him, and he looked at me and he said, well, I can't be white like poo because poo is brown. And she said, ah, but bird poo isn't. And she actually thought this was a way to tackle the situation. Andshe and I looked at her and I said, look. You're very well meaning here. I says, but yeah, you've missed the point entirely. I said, you reduced it down to almost a com. I mean, it was, it was a comical level. I said to her, you need to talk about these things. You need to say to the child, you're not what you're saying. You're not meaning to be racist, but what you said was a racist thing and it's, you need to call it for what it is. Why are we so, mm.
(11:00):
Afraid of say, speaking and dealing with these things, and I said, what you've done, you can never compare that white child's experience to my child's experience. I said, when you said that to that child, he can look behind his shoulder and he's got another 28 kids in the class that look like him. So when you say someone says you're white like poo, he can laugh it off and say, of course I'm not. What are you talking about? I said, when someone says it to my son. There's no one elsein the class that looks like him, so he's got to find the strength himself to laugh it off and to brush it off. I said, you can never compare that child's experience to my child's experience. And by you doing that, you're, you're not dealing with it. You need to. Call it out for what it's, I said, I'm sorry. I think you need anti-racism training. Mm-hmm. But you know, you know the funny thing, you know, I don't blame the teacher at all. No. Because if I hadn't had mixed race children,
(12:00):
maybe I would've said something similar. Because if you're not living in that world, you have no idea about these things. Yeah. Have no idea. And that's, yeah. So that's how can you educate if they're not educated themselves? Yeah. Yeah. But in 2023, they should be, especially if they're an Yeah, of course. Hundred percent. Yeah. Go and do some anti-racism training, in my view. Yeah. And I basically told her that that day she was quite a well-meaning. Women, but I had to tell her whatracism was. You know, it's not just people, uh, we know these things. It's not just people calling names, but it's all the structures in place. It's all the systemic stuff. Yeah. The place that it comes from that then generates, uh, behaviors. Yeah. That people we're not even aware they have or it takes, yeah. It takes years though, unconscious before they comprehend. Yeah. What's your, what's going on in your head when you, when you're listening to this. It's just, it's, it's sad
(13:00):
because, you know, you know that kids sometimes they, they don't. I get what they're saying. They don't Yeah. Understand the impact and stuff of what they're saying. They may feel it's like some kind of a joke and things. , but yeah, it does, it does have impact. Yeah, it absolutely does. , it's funny 'cause , Mac was in a similar situation to, , I was, when I was growing up interms of, . My schooling from age of 12 onwards was primarily a white school. Yeah. , and you know, there's a lot of, there was a lot of little digs here and things and stuff that happened. I gave as good as I got things, obviously. Yeah. You learn, you learn to kind of roll with the punches and stuff sometimes. Yeah. Like an armor type thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You had to become
(14:00):
resilient to certain things and stuff that was said. , otherwise it would get to you. And you know, these are the things that, , people don't always kind of realize. You still take some of those things on with you, you know, you take Yeah. Certain things on because you suddenly start expecting that certain things like that could happen as you go on. Yeah. , and it's. I, what, what you both said about the teacher., I appreciate, I, I really do appreciate that. You know, with yourself and yourself and Tom, , like Ivana and myself and things, we've brought our children into a predominantly white area. , yeah. That, that's not very diverse. Yeah. You know, I, I totally appreciate that. They may not have experience and stuff of this, but it's always, there's, there's no way that you could turn around and say to me that.
(15:00):
A teacher in this day and age shouldn't have some level of training. Yeah. Even if they're out of. Their depth slightly because they're actually in that experience as it's happening. You know, C, certain things you can say, and you don't mean to say it, but you'll me, like you said, I can totally understand that you probably absolutely meant well. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. That's the worst thing. Yeah. That she meant Well, she meant, she meant well. And you know, she wasquite proud to tell me that this is how she handled it, and both Tom and I looked at each other and exchanged glances like, oh my God, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not way to deal with this. Like you can't compare ex experience that way. It's just not. Mm-hmm. I think the good thing is that. The more white people raise black children. Yeah. Yeah. I think we are the ones who can, yeah. Help the world and change the world because we understand it's, it's both sides now. Like how
(16:00):
naive we were and how it actually is. It's that continuous open talking. So yeah, the fact that, you know, Mac went through that. Is, you know, it's not great at all. And like you said, no, his confidence around it, , maybe kind of shook for a little bit. But if he's confident in himself that resilience breeds character and stuff, you don't want that to breed his character, but it gives him some, some level. But the talkinglike this, this conversations and stuff that, you know, you may not necessarily have, . And hopefully people listening to this, the, the, the conversations that people are hearing from parents who are experiencing this. Yeah. 'cause some people will turn around and say, well, you know, I had some level of, . Not abuse. I don't want to use too, too strong a word and stuff around it, but, , I've had some level of abuse when
(17:00):
you're grow. Growing up, yeah. It didn't affect me, but it's different. It's different from a lot of different angles and stuff, but the, the just explain for people who don't understand, we should explain how, how is it different? What do you mean? How is it different? Well, it's different for any, anybody. Like if, if, if you say you go in and, uh, you are a certain shape or a certain size. Mm. And somebody gets, ,teased or I don't wanna say abused 'cause that's, I feel that's bit too much of a harsh word, but they get continuously you, that leads onto traa and how you look at yourself and stuff. Yes. Some people may do something about that going forward, but that traa will. Predominantly stay with that person and stuff. Right. And you've different variance and stuff that, but like you say, Mackey in a situation where. You know,
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if he's the only mixed race child and stuff there, mixed heritage, and he was, there's, it's the, the class is a little bit more diverse now. I think there's like three more kids. But yeah, back then he was the only one in the class. So you've got to come from a, a place of strength if you're hearing comments like that, to, to kinda brush them off and get on. Yeah. You know? , and, and do you think. Sorry, just while we are on the subject, I think that well, yeah, you're saying it's different when someonecomments on your shape Yeah. Or someone comments on who you are. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of differences. Yeah. There's a lot of differences from, yeah. So that's, that's what makes it different, I think. Okay. Go on, Sarah. Sorry. No, I, I agree. And it's hard, you know, because it's hard when. People like you are in your little bubble. Yeah. Like we've got our families. We love our families. You're out and about. You're minding your own business and you dunno when it's gonna happen, but it can happen
(19:00):
and you've got to arm your children to deal with it. And that's the reality. If Anna is what I would say Yeah. Is that you have to have conversations with your kids because of what? Can happen. So for example, that poem I, I wrote about other kind of examples of things that were said to Mac. We were sitting with the baby. , so this was recent as well, and I was breastfeeding the baby and we were sitting, Carmack had just finished his swimming lesson.I was breastfeeding the baby, minding her own business, and there was a girl waiting for her dad who was playing football. We were at a leisure center and she just came up and started talking to us. Now. She looked at Carmack, looked at me and she was like, is that your child? And I was like, yeah. , and she said it in such a, like, she was older, she was about 11 a kind of stroppy, preteen, just to paint you a picture. And she said, well, he can't be
(20:00):
your son. And I said, well, what do you mean you can't be my son? Of course he's my son. And she's like, but he's a different race. And that was what she said. And it was like. It, it, it, so, , I wasn't prepared. I wasn't prepared for it to come out and it just stung. 'cause I could see his little face, that heart, you know? And I, I was like, well, mm-hmm. I thought, right, okay, I'm gonna try and educate this, this young girl. 'cause her dad was nowhere to be seen. And I said, well, of course he's my son.I says, you know, uh, I'm white, his dad's black. So if you put the two of us together, then you get Cormac, don't you, Cormac? And, and he's like, yeah. Nodding, you know, and the girl, yeah. I was, I thought I can try and educate her a little bit here 'cause maybe she's just not being exposed. Different families or, yeah. She also commented on my breastfeeding and told me it was absolutely disgusting, which also like that age, she allowed, you know. Because she'd obviously never seen that before too. So I
(21:00):
tried to like educate her there too. But when her dad came out, so there, this is the key part. When her dad came out from playing football, I tried to reach out to him and I said, oh listen, , is this your daughter? And I said, I won't say her name. Uh, and he said, yeah, yeah. She'd been waiting on him. He'd been playing football for a while. And I said, oh, you should hear the things that he, she's been saying and I wanted to tell him, you know? Mm-hmm. Because I wanted, so he knew so he could maybetalk to her about these things and, and he just laughed and said, oh, I can only imagine. And he just didn't want to know. And that was mm-hmm. Was sad for me. 'cause I thought that was an opportunity. Mm-hmm. For, but I love it that you. Took the time and educated her because I, I see. This is what, yeah, because so many people don't do this. They think something, but if we don't speak out, how can we expect the change? Yes. So that's amazing that you did that. I appreciate. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's,
(22:00):
it's a difficult one because kids, you know. Kids sometimes say some random things and stuff. Sometimes, yeah, too. , and I've, it's not a great experience and stuff to have, you know, you could come across they are, they are kids and it's not greatest, but like you said, it's, if the kids aren't getting it, kids aren't having, you know, the experience or having those conversations with, you know, this. And this is what you were saying before about when is it gonna happen again? You arekind of, it's like you are on your tippy toes kind of waiting for something else to kind of happen. You know? You could be Yeah. Out on the street, you can be in shopping, you know, you could be doing anything and stuff, and this could happen to come. Yeah. And so, so after that I had to then, if you like, pick up the peasy. So I sat, I sat with Cormac and I said. Listen. Did, are you all right? And he, and you know, and I had a bit of, I said, you know, that girl, she's, she's a nice girl.
(23:00):
She doesn't, she just doesn't know anyone. , you know, who has a family that looks like ours? You know? And I had to do a bit of the picking up pieces because I felt like I needed to talk to him about it, to check he was okay. And also, actually, I know it's been funny, but the breastfeeding point too, because he's, that's what we do. It's natural. Mm-hmm. And for someone to call it out and go, Ugh, that's horrible. I had to say to them, no, it's not, it's, you know, it's just, it's people's choices and it's, it's just mm-hmm. Theway different people do things and some people are not exposed to way people bring up children in a different way and, you know. Mm-hmm. So we had a bit of a conversation, but. You have to do that sometimes and, and like you say, yeah, you never know. And, and you know, majority wise you go for life and you have nothing said. But it's just the odd little occasion where, and it stings 'cause you're not expecting it. Do you know what I mean? You're like, oh, there is again. Oh, geez. You've gotta pick up the pieces and have a bit of a
(24:00):
conversation. But the work is, I think the reality is if you have, uh, like you say, children of mixed, , then you have a duty to to educate them. Educate yourself so that you a hundred percent. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So you're prepared. Sarah? Sarah, what? Oh, sorry, go on. No, no, no, no. It was, no, no. Go on. Iana. Just wanted to ask, in your poem you mentioned. I hope I miss misheard, but did your Yeah. Health visitorcalled Yes. Yeah. A hybrid. Yeah. So he was only three days old and, , my ex-partner and I, we were pretty shocked by it. Yeah. She came round. , so I put that in the poem because these are all true experiences, all things that have been said. And, but in what context did she, did she say that she, we were talking, she came round, I think it was like. We'd just got out of the hospital. So, you know these home visitor visits
(25:00):
that happen mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When you come out to the hospital and, , I think it was when she was doing the Heal Crick test. I dunno if you remember that. You get like a test done to check mm-hmm. For, , oh God. Sickle cell disease. Yeah. I can't remember what she was saying, but she, she said it and we thought we'd misheard it first, but she says, oh, you know, with these hybrid babies. And we looked at each other and we both like shot each other at glance and we thought, surely we didn't hear that. And she said she wenton to say it about two or three more times. Yeah. This is like a trained health professional. And the thing is, we were so tired. Yeah. So exhausted. I mean, you've not met Martin, but you will. He is. He's lovely. And we were both equally shocked and tired and normally. You would've said something, you know, we would say something. We didn't, we didn't say something. We were just so, like, you're so shocked that you have speech to them. We were so tired. And in the situation that you're in and you're relying on this
(26:00):
person to give you information, you know, it's like a para relationship, isn't it really? Mm-hmm. , and I wish we had, you know, it's something that I wish I'd followed up and said to her, listen, don't use that word because it's education, isn't it? So it's like next time she goes to. A house that maybe has mixed heritage children that she, she doesn't use that. , but she, she used my, my blood, my blood's boiling now. Yeah, I know. It's,you know, it's not a car. We both, like, after she left, we, the first thing we said to each other was, what the hell, you know? What did we just hear? , but you know, that's, that's another thing that I guess is probably quite good to touch on is, , it's, it's these kind of systemic, uh, structures that, you know, I know, I know friends who their children are mixed race and they've been referred to jaundice clinics when their kids. Don't
(27:00):
have jaundice. , in fact, one time we were going along when Carmack was gonna get a checkup when he was first born, and the lady asked us if he had jaundice and we were like, no, no. He is just the way he's supposed to look. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's that kind of thing. And it probably doesn't happen now in like, , communities where there's more diversity. Yeah. But. Certainly when you're in communities that has less diversity than, , the, you know, some of theprofessionals, the way certain conditions present themselves on black skin is different to the way presents on white skin. And there can be some of these, uh, you know, miseducation and things. Yeah, I know like granula for example. My youngest, we got referred. , and I don't know if this happened to you guys, so it's probably what we got referred to a specialist for her eyes, because when she was born, her eyes were so dark. I mean, they weren't blue. They
(28:00):
were, they were really dark. Yeah. , and she didn't respond to the light test that they do, the reflex test that they do. . And, you know, that's a test that's performed in every baby. But yeah. , in the kind of majority population, white population in, in this part of the world, eyes respond in a certain way and hers didn't respond in a certain way. So we were referred to specialists and we had to wait six weeks, you know, to look. And, , my brother who has,, mixed Malaysian children, had the same thing happen twice with both his children. So he said to me. He reassured and said, oh, it's just because she's mixed. Honestly. Don't worry about it. And so I didn't worry about it. Yeah. And then when the appointment came around. The doctor, the eye doctor, he was lovely. He just, he reassured me and he was like, our eyes are perfectly fine. Oh God, you're another one. He said it's because the training manuals are
(29:00):
written by white people and he was as blunt as that, you know? So there are things that need to change. , even in this day and age, there are things that need to change that. . You know, diversity, it's awareness, it's education, it's, you know, and it's pos, it's, it's positive that. You know, highlighting it and Yeah. You know, we're not, it's not blame. It's not like, oh, you, you, yeah. It's not blame. Not at all. No. It's just, it'slike everything that, it's education, it's discussion like what you guys are doing, you know, but it's, it's, you've got to discuss these things for them to change. Mm-hmm. It's like absolutely. You've got put it out there for people to be aware of it, to then go, oh, right, right. Okay. We need to tackle that. We need to change that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Many people. Don't understand as well, as well as myself once that. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes
(30:00):
people are like, oh, I don't care what race you are or color you are. But that's not helpful as well because No, you need to acknowledge the race. Well, it shuts down the conversation about, doesn't it? It's almost like, why are you making a big deal outta this? We're not making a big deal out of it. We're we're just saying, you know, let, let's, and why shouldn't we make a big deal out anyway? I'm not, you know, I'm done apologizing. Yeah. , there, you know, if there's things that need to change, you need totalk about them and we need to change them because God, we've been talking about these things for hundreds of years and not enough action has happened. Mm-hmm. Others. There's still so much that needs to happen. Mm-hmm. Sarah, do you, do you also think or feel like you were, like I said that in previous episodes? Mm-hmm. That I feel like I was so naive before I had. Mixed race children before I met you, do you feel the same that you're, oh my God, yeah, because I'm, oh my God, I'm a diehard romantic. I'm a,
(31:00):
we softie and I'm an idealist, and so like age 16. Me thought the world now in 2024 would be so much different to the world. Mm-hmm. I'm not saying the world's awful. I love the world, you know, I love people and more good in the world than there's bad. Yes. But I thought race equality and various things that I'm passionate about would be more advanced than they're, and yes, I could feel like before, uh, you know, I venturedinto, like you say, being a mom to mixed race children. I didn't think these sorts of things would be said. You know, it, it flabbergasted me. Some of the idiocy. Staffed things that people say without thinking, like I've put it in the poem again. And, and another instance was I took my Wi Son to, , a TaeKwonDo class to try out, and he is an introvert, right? So that's a whole other podcast. But I've had to, I've had to learn
(32:00):
because I'm an extrovert and so. Uh, my son's an introvert, and so I've had to learn, you know, that he, he responds differently to things the way that I would respond, so mm-hmm. We were at this class, and the more that he's put on show, the more he goes into himself. So the teacher was bringing him to the front of the class to show him how to do the TaeKwonDo. It was like a taster session, and he just froze. He hated it. He hates being put at the front of anything, you know? Mm-hmm. .If he's at the back of the class and he's quietly been asked to get on with it and follow the steps, he would be fine with that. Okay. But as soon as he's moved in front, he just froze. Anyway, the point of this is I'm very Scottish, as you can hear. Uh, the, I spoke when I went into the class chatting away and when he froze, and the more he froze and the more he wouldn't do things, there was like. An older guy, I'm saying older guy. He was in his fifties, right? So whatever, if that's
(33:00):
older, younger, whatever, whatever you judge. He turned around and said, what's wrong with him? Is he okay? And then he started making a big deal of it. And he was like, does he speak English? Can he understand English? And I just looked at him and I was like, I, I gave him a frown. Now I wish I'd said something. This is a regret in my life because the rest of the class there. I heard him say this, no one challenged, and I left there so annoyed at myself that I didn't say, of coursehe speaks English. What do you mean? Why would you think he doesn't speak English? Why would you think he doesn't understand English? Mm-hmm. Only because of the color of his skin. He said that a hundred percent because he hired me. Scottish mom as soon as we walked in. Why would he be saying that? You know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I didn't reflect it on himself, so I didn't say, I kind of excused it. I was like, of course he does. You know, like this. Mm-hmm. And I should have said,
(34:00):
yes, he does. Why would you think he didn't? So that I could reflect on him so that he could say, I think he did say that. You did say that. Yeah, between the lines, you, you did say that, but it's hard in the moment. You know, we've probably all been there and there's probably things you wish you'd said and Mm, yeah. And of course, you know, you pick and choose battles and things as well, you know, , but I guess the, the kind of messageI was. There's certain times where probably it is good to speak up and it's, it's good to speak up. , definitely, you know, the allyship, the kind of, yeah. If you see an injustice mm-hmm. It doesn't be happening to you, but rather than like, just letting it slide, why not? Mm-hmm. Why sharing stories helps sharing stories. Yeah. Sharing stories. Yeah. Because if someone, the way I really got it, what it's all about, it wasn't Yahoo
(35:00):
trying to convince me. Mm-hmm. It was the stories he was telling. , yeah. Stories I saw around me and that's what actually opened my eyes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think sharing the stories can make a difference rather than us trying to. I think educate them like just, you know, you know what I mean? You bring it to life for people. I totally, yes. You've got all the theory books and things. You can read it and you know, I definitely think it's good to do that becausehistory is written by the victors, as I said, so it is good to. Have that, you know? Yeah. Because race is a social construct. There is no such thing, you know, we're all one race, we're all han. But it was socially constructed as a means to basically control people and to do horrible things to people. And, and that's the way I explain racism to Carmac. I'll say to him, some people are racist, you know, it's, it's not a nice way to be. It's a legacy from. Basically
(36:00):
days of old of. People trying to steal riches from other people. So they, they convinced people that other people were not as good as them. It is not, , it's got no place in a modern world. And if anyone, if you ever feel that anyone's ever doing that to you, you'd be proud of who you are. And you put them right. You know, and you tell mommy a teacher, et cetera. You've gotta kind break it down into well done. But you have to have these conversations. And itwas like my friend. Uh, a Black American guy at my work, he said to me, Sarah, you have to have this conversation with your son because it's gonna happen and you know you need, you need to talk to him about these things. It broke my heart to do that, you know, to explain, because like you say, I course, I always thought we'd be living in a world with no racism. No. You know, just everyone just uh, kind of utopia, everyone getting on. And uh, unfortunately it's,
(37:00):
you know, some people, some people live in that world. Yeah. Well, that's because I think as well, and I think that's to answer your question, and sorry, we're going around a bit, but to answer your question earlier around. I think a lot of white people, they do live in a bubble. 'cause if you're switched on, you're right on and mm-hmm. You know, you expect that everyone else is the same and they're not. Mm-hmm. Like sometimes in social media, if you're like, say you're a lefty or liberal and you look up allthese things, you're only getting channeled. News that people, yeah, that people that you're interested in. So you are therefore not seeing a lot of the kind of xenophobia, the Islamophobia, a lot of the really hateful things that are going on out there 'cause and so therefore you think it doesn't exist, do you think? Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And uh, do you feel the same, Sarah? I feel like I only realized I'm a wide race after I met Yao. I dunno if that makes sense, but I didn't really ever. Think
(38:00):
about race as such, like, I'm some race. I dunno if that makes sense, but now I understand actually I'm a white race. Does that make sense? I dunno, I I know what you're saying. Like it's, yeah, that, well, it's horrible. It's, yeah, I know. It's like, to me it was, it doesn't matter yet. We. Some color. I didn't see a race as a thing. Yeah, no, no. That has changed as well with Yeah, and the boys, of course. Yeah, of course. Of course. It's. It's complex. All ofit is really complex and Oh, yeah, yeah. I would then too, like, uh, depending on where you live as well. So if you live in a really diverse place, that definitely helps, you know? Mm-hmm. , my friend is Jamaican and she talks about Jamaica. I mean, it sounds amazing. And she's like, you know, it's a melting pot. No one cares. Yeah. Uh, you know. If you live in London, I'm sure as well, there's, there's so many different cultures, there's so much celebration, but
(39:00):
it's where if you're, , where there's less diversity, there's less awareness, and there can sometimes be that other thing going on. Yeah. Which isn't good, you know? But I would, I would say that it happens everywhere. It doesn't matter. It does. Yeah. It would matter. Yeah. And sometimes people think that in. Diverse cities like London, you can't, uh, face racism. But this is a myth. A million as well. One of the myths. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I even, I remember oncewhen I was really, I felt really depressed about this whole, uh, racism. When I, when I really, when I really understood what it's about, what, what boys can. What can happen to them? I don't wanna be mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like saying it's definitely gonna happen, but it is very likely. But yeah, once you realize that as a mom, it's awful. No. Especially if you didn't grow up with it. So it's like a huge new thing. A huge shock. Well, that, that's it. But I wanna, I, I said to,
(40:00):
let's just move to Africa so we don't have to face the racism. And he said to me, it's there as well. I was like, whoa. Everywhere. Everywhere. Can't escape it. Like you said, the only thing we can do is to make sure they are confident and strong enough in themselves because what else? Confident and empowered, and they can change the world. These kids. Yeah, these hybrid kids. As your husband said, they're the future, so yeah. They are, but we can also help aswell in the here and now. And it's, you know, such as what you're doing with the podcast. Hundred percent. Yeah. You know, that was my little chip in putting my chipping in with the poem and, , just to kind of get people talking and thinking about these things and just, you know, it's, it's. It's if you, , you can cha challenge things, so Yeah. But do it, you know, do it in a way that it's successful. So, like I say, with that girl, I, I try to bring it down to her
(41:00):
level and, and you, you can do it where you're not trying to antagonize people, but Exactly. You, you definitely need to challenge it. You know, it's, I'm not one that believes in just letting things slide, I think. Mm-hmm. You have, you have to stand up for what's right, basically. Yeah. If we don't, then we'll, yeah. From your perspective. Yeah. Yeah. How is it different, you having the kids with me? White person or you having kids with a blackperson? How would that be different? Chicken and egg, isn't it? How do, how do you, how do you know until you've gone through that experience? No, but do you think it's, it, it helps them in a way to be more resilient or to have different views or It's, it's not, it's not about the resilience. It's not about, , whether Well would they, would they have been different if they were black? Black because now they're mixed race? Would, would that have been
(42:00):
different then? No. No. Okay. It's, it's not, it's not about that. It's, it's the knowledge that people need to kind of get their heads around. Mm-hmm. If, and I, I'm taking a leap of faith and stuff on this, that if anybody had a child and their child is getting bullied or, you know, feeling in such a bad way in any, for anything, they would be fing. They would be feeling mm-hmm. They would, they'd beupset the fact that their child is going through anything. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's about people understanding and learning from it. And I mean, across the board, learning from how our, you know, we've got to make sure that we let our children know and make sure our children understand there are certain things that you can and can't do. We've gotta make sure that our children know, as you've both said, is
(43:00):
mm-hmm. You've got, you've gotta be confident in yourselves to understand that. Yeah. You know, you're gonna come across people that just aren't gonna like you because of Yeah. Whether it's, you know, , they're unhappy shaming or you're, you are sorry people that say bad things to you or unhappy people. That's what I tell the kids. If they're commenting on your appearance or they're commenting on, I said, they're not happy in themselves. So you just, they need to def Yeah. They're deflecting Aren, they, yeah, they deflecting happy. Absolutely. Because if you'rea happy person, you're too busy being happy and smiling to even mm-hmm. Want to worry about someone else. Like to put someone else out. You don't think it, and I, and I raise my kids and I say, if you've not got something good to say, don't say anything at all. And I. I like them. They, I don't hear the boys. They never really kinda bitch about other people. I don't like that. You know? And yeah, and, and, and so if they're hearing that from other people, you just look at them. I say to them, you just look at them and you just, like, water just bounces off
(44:00):
you, you just don't. Pay any heat tip because you know who you are. You know you're gorgeous. You know you're amazing. Mm-hmm. You've got so much going for yourself. You've gotta raise confidence kids, and when your kids are confident and so full of like, not full of themselves. Sorry, but you know what I mean. No confidence. Confident. Yeah. And they're sure of who they are and they're so proud of who they're like. My son, he's so proud to be, he's always like, I'm an African boy, but he's also proud to be ScottishIrish too. We celebrate everything in our house. We celebrate. Burns day. I've got a poem about Robby Burns off my sleeve. You know, I've got, uh, we celebrate that and we celebrate St. Patrick's Day because I'm part Irish. Yeah. And then we also have Ghana Independence Day as well, so he knows he's well-rounded. And I think that's what's important for our kids too. And I know you guys do that. Yeah. Know your culture. Yeah. Your kids know your cultures. Know who you are, be proud of who you're, and no one, and then
(45:00):
that's your. That's your like bulletproof vest. Yeah. If someone says something to you, really, oh, that's Yahoo's line. You know what I mean? I love that you said that. That's your line. And you said that really? You have nothing better to say. That's all you got. Yeah, I don't really, it's all in in that one word. Yeah, but you know what? I think they'll be even more proud of who they are when they're. Teenagers and they have all that attention fromgirls because of how they look. Oh, yeah. So that's good looking boys. As long as, as long as they've got each other. I, I mean like. Cormac in our case. Yeah. Boys. No, I just mean, yeah, the friends. Friends. Yeah. Yeah, the friends, you know, as they grow older they'll kind of interact. But I just, I just hope if people are listening to this, , I know people will be talking to kids. I think we have more. And when you're saying is it better, I think
(46:00):
people do talk a lot more, but we just mm-hmm. Need to make sure that we don't stop. We educate ourselves a bit more and talk a bit. Yeah, we have to. Hundred percent. We're not stopping, we're not going anywhere with this podcast. No, no. So it's all good. You're doing a great thing, guys. You know, it's like that's, that's, that's what's key to all of us is just. Talking because everyone has so much more in common than they do. Absolutely. You know, and that's, that's what's key iswhen you talk, you, you realize, and it's like all these silly things that are constructs and different, there's, everyone's just the same underneath it all. You know, like everyone's just trying to get through this thing called life that sounds like, I think that's a song isn't, I'm passionate about making the world and, you know, , in 2024, just. I didn't think these things would even be issues, you know? Yeah. Just like what you were saying, Ivana, so let's just keep talking so that
(47:00):
they no longer are issues in the future. Yeah. You know exactly this, this is the perfect words to, to finish this episode with one love, basically. One love. One love. Yeah. Oh, don't get me start. Next time I'll start singing Bob. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Maybe I'll, I'll start. No, I'm not gonna promise that. 'cause then next time you've got this recording and you'll expect me to start singing Bob to, yeah. To start this off. No. I'll just say hi to everybody. Oh, definitely.To dinner. Happy. Oh, t Brilliant. Okay. Thank you so much Sarah, for being here today. We had an amazing time with you. Thank you so much for being so open and honest. Uh, it's amazing. The only way to be, isn't it? We need to just absolutely open up about these things and, uh, it's the only way to make, make, yeah. Make a difference. Exactly. We can only start from ourselves. So you're doing an amazing job. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. And, and thanks guys for having me.
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