October 9, 2023 • 61 mins
In a world where diversity, equity, and inclusion have become buzzwords, my chat with Nicole Vazquez is timely as we challenge the status quo. Brace yourself for an honest account of the dark side of surface-level approaches in DEI work. Prepare to be awakened, as we expose the uncomfortable truth behind the shallow efforts that have become what most businesses now expect. Are you ready to delve into the depths of transformative change, or will you choose to stay adrift on the surface?
In this episode, you will be able to:✅ Gain a deeper understanding of surface saturation in DEI work and how to navigate it effectively.
✅ Discover the performativity in DEI efforts and learn how to move beyond surface-level actions to drive meaningful change.
✅ Explore the concept of interest convergence and its significance in DEI work, unlocking new strategies for transformative change.
✅ Learn how to navigate the co-opting and watering down of DEI terms, ensuring the integrity of your DEI efforts.
✅ Enhance your DEI training with nuanced examples that challenge assumptions and encourage critical thinking for lasting impact.
The guest for this episode is Nicole VazquezWith her extensive knowledge and experience in the field of diversity, equity, and inclusion, Nicole brings a fresh and innovative approach to the table. As a professor, she challenged traditional teaching methods, creating a dynamic and inclusive learning environment that left a lasting impact on her students. Nicole's unique background as an Afro Latinx, queer, cis-woman, fluent in both English and Spanish, gives her a perspective and expertise that's needed in this work. With her Master of Social Work and Master of Public Policy degrees, Nicole brings a wealth of knowledge and insights to help DEI practitioners navigate the challenges of surface-level approaches and drive transformative change.
One of My Fav Moments 🧡 Interest Convergence and White Supremacy CultureInterest convergence is a theory that racial progress comes at a point when interests of the dominant white group align with the needs of marginalized racial groups. This interest alignment becomes problematic when they converge only to serve the majority's benefits. At the same time, White Supremacy Culture forms the backdrop, privileging white people and Western norms. The challenge lies in identifying and acknowledging these structures within your organization, addressing and working through them consciously. Charmaine Utz identifies with this. She believes DEI goes beyond mere productivity and profitability, advocating for workers' experiences and welfare. Nicole, in solidarity with Utz, calls out hierarchical thinking, emphasizing the importance of frontline workers. They both critique the practices where DEI work is regarded as separate to regular business practices and urge organizations to view it as integral to their overall success.
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To get in touch with Nicole Vazquez, you can contact her here:
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The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:00 - Setting the Stage, 00:01:47 - Nicole's Unique Teaching Approach, 00:03:54 - Explaining Surface Saturation, 00:06:15 - Interest Convergence and White Supremacy Culture, 00:10:44 - Widely Shared Not Knowing What to Do, 00:16:34 - The Importance of Doing the Deep Work on Race and Intersectionality, 00:17:48 - The Challenges of Doing the Deep Work, 00:19:33 - Overcoming Resistance and Blame, 00:21:41 - Integrating DEI into Business Practices, 00:26:24 - Focusing on Employee Experience, 00:32:27 - The Importance of Authenticity in Work, 00:33:14 - Setting Clear Expectations, 00:34:01 - Challenging White Supremacy Culture, 00:34:49 - Purpose-Driven Work Over Financial Gain, 00:37:35 - Internal Self-Reflection and Stepping Back, 00:48:19 - The Internal Response to Feedback, 00:49:55 - The Responsibilities of Leaders, 00:51:19 - Example of Denial and Dismissal, 00:55:10 - The Significance of Self Work, 00:58:24 - Normalizing the Human Experience,
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today's topic is gettingcaught up in surface
saturation and DEI work.
We'll explain a little bitmore about what that means.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI Expert.
If you are new here, we areopenly talking about the
(00:20):
scenarios and issues that comeup in our workplaces and in
other settings where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other, so that we can
learn from them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
And as always, because I weara lot of hats, I want to be
(00:41):
clear that the thoughts, views,and opinions that I share,
they're my own opinions.
They are not as a representativeof agencies that I'm employed
by or contracted with.
(01:05):
Now with me today, Ihave Nicole Vasquez.
Thank you so muchfor being here today.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
It's exciting.
I've been really lookingforward to doing this.
Nicole is, I actually met herthe first time as my professor.
When I was in the Masterof Social Work program
at Dominguez Hills.
(01:26):
She was the first professorthat we had that took a
very different approachto the classroom.
We had typically had, Isee the look on your face.
We typically had a traditionalteaching and there was nothing
wrong with how teachers taught,but you know, when you came
on the scene, it was very muchjust, it was so different.
(01:47):
It was very communal.
It was relationshipy.
It was vulnerable.
You challenged us a lot.
I remember like very specificmoments from your class.
It's just so differentand you have inspired me
in a few different ways.
I remember that experienceand I frequently think
(02:07):
about how I can help otherpeople feel the same way.
So I just wanted to say that.
I've never even told you that.
So I imagine you'resitting there like, what?
I was just like,wow, no, thank you.
That's really nice to hear.
Yeah.
I
Of course, of course.
Now we decided not to dothe traditional bio thing.
I don't know if there's anythingthat you want to share on top
(02:27):
of, how I know you and how wemet or we can totally skip that.
It's up to you.
I guess I would just want toshare like how I identify.
My, dad identifiedas Mexican American.
My mom is animmigrant from Panama.
So I'm bilingual EnglishSpanish speaking.
I identify as AfroLatinx, queer, cis woman.
(02:50):
Born in LA, lived inthe San Gabriel Valley.
Moved to the Midwest, when I wasseven, because of my dad's job.
And then I went toundergrad at the Midwest.
Lived there for a little bitbefore I came back to LA.
So just to give people asense of who I am, where I've
grown up, that kind of thing.
(03:10):
So I'm back in the SanGabriel Valley now.
I've been here for a while.
MSW, MPP, that's public policy.
That's it.
That's what I'dlike folks to know.
Let's
That's it.
That's all.
Yeah, you, you do a lot ofstuff and in preparation for
today, we were talking aboutyour experience of doing
(03:31):
consulting, coaching withleaders, and probably use a lot
of the different experiencesthat you have as your lens
for today, and certainly mine.
So with that, let's get,let's just get into it.
And I started this by sayingthat we are getting into
the surface saturation,and I don't think that's a
(03:52):
common term that people use.
So it might be a good ideafor us to just explain, what
are we talking about whenwe say surface saturation?
It's a pretty simple concept.
I think you have your ownterm for it and I have
mine too, and it's noteven surface saturation.
But let's start there and share,what is your take on that?
And then I'll share mine.
(04:13):
like when you said surfacesaturation, I can only assume
like what you mean by that.
So I'll just tell you like whatI think like when you say that.
Surface saturation in relationto you know, DEI work, I
think is, is just like verysurface level like for me,
(04:34):
it's saturating the surface,
Like, we're not getting deep.
The term diversity, equity,and inclusion, and whatever
all the manifestations thathave come from that, I see
them as being very surfacelevel and not going deep into
what that actually means.
And those, those threeletters, in my opinion
(04:56):
have been, co opted, havebeen watered down, and they
don't really mean a lot.
So that's my take on what's,what you mean when you
say surface saturation.
That, to me, that'show I see it too.
I also feel that there is acommercialization attached
(05:21):
to doing DEI work in aparticular way that keeps
people at the surface.
So I would agree witheverything that you said.
It's our communal, forthe most part, communal
participation in over, overlyattaching to the things
that keep us at the surface.
We don't go deep withthe things that we learn.
(05:42):
We're typically learning thingswe're keeping in our head
and not really getting thethings inside of us to help us
struggle with how to use it.
And with the commercialization,I actually attach it to
what you were talkingabout with the acronyms.
People want to beexcited about DEI work.
And then at the same timethey attach it to the things
that feel good and we canmarket it a certain way.
(06:04):
And we can choose certainwords so that we can say that
we're doing something great.
People spend a lotof time in that area.
And I remember you and Iwere talking about this.
I know you don't like theterms and the acronyms
and, you have a response tothat, and I totally get it,
and I share your feeling.
(06:27):
I wonder if you could speak onthat a little bit, the, your
feelings about the acronymsand why people get stuck there.
Yeah, As you were talking,I was thinking about JEDI,
like once we got to JEDI, I'mlike, and when you talk about
like things that make peoplefeel good, It's, and I think
we have to keep that in mindtoo, because with the work
(06:48):
that we do have to think aboutwhat people connect with,
And what people connect to.
And maybe we use that as anentry point in going deeper,
So people may respond to JEDIbecause it's like Star Wars,
like JEDI, like we're gonna,I don't know, whatever, be
Jedi's in this DEI work orwhatever, The J, like justice
(07:11):
is absolutely very important.
But I think because thereason why we don't go
deeper is because we'renot, one, like we're not
conditioned to, and it's hard.
And also as you were talking,I was thinking of two
things, like frameworks,I guess, or, or ideas.
Um, cool frameworks.
(07:32):
Like one of our connectionsis critical race theory,
Because the MSW program atDominguez Hills is rooted
in critical race theory.
One of the tenets ofcritical race theory is
interest convergence.
So when, like when you talkabout surface saturation and
we start to think about andtalk about why it happens,
It's the interest convergence.
Because like when we had ourracial reckoning in 2020,
(07:53):
another racial reckoning,happened recently in 2020.
And you had all of thesecorporate responses
and all of these DEI.
So that's why I was like, that'swhen I was like, no, I'm not
down with these terms anymorebecause it is very performative.
Like people put, corporationsput, organizations,
programs put, messages,statements on their websites.
(08:16):
And that's essentiallyas far as it goes.
It doesn't go anydeeper than that.
And so going back to interestconvergence with critical
race theory is because it'sa global, it's centered in
the US, but it's like thisglobal racial reckoning that
people have to respond to.
And they don't wantto be left out.
And what is it going tomean for their brand?
Because they're going to startto get called out, potentially
(08:38):
like calls for boycottsand those kinds of things.
There has to be a response.
So that's the interestconvergence in terms of the
interest of people who wantjustice and who want racial
equity, those interestsconverge with people that are
corporations that are all aboutor programs, organizations that
are all about the bottom line.
Whether it's making money or,like a lot of the work that I
(09:00):
do is with academic programs.
So it's about attractingmore students, or a
particular type of student.
So those are one, that'sone kind of thing that I
have in mind that like, whythe why of like- why does
surface saturation happenis the interest convergence.
And then the otherone originated with,
the work of Temo Okun.
(09:21):
And that's the white supremacyculture characteristics.
That's just how our societyfunctions, is under this
kind of, umbrella of,of white supremacy and,
like, how it plays out.
Of, like, where Goingback to us not being
conditioned to go deep.
We don't talk about ourfeelings in the workplace.
We don't, it's verymechanical, like, how are you?
(09:44):
Just to respondlike, Oh, I'm fine.
How are you?
Or inside, you'reprobably falling apart.
Because it's like, not goingto make us feel comfortable
to talk about Oh, I'm stilllike, very personally for
myself, like still grievingthe loss of my father, which
happened five years ago.
And in the first couple ofyears after that happened,
like having to go back to workand stuff, people don't want
(10:05):
to hear like, no, I'm fallingapart inside, and that's hard.
But that's what our, oursociety is like, this
idea of professionalismand what that means.
So those things help me to workwithin these spaces so that I'm
not frustrated by and continueto criticize this culture,
how wide it is that peopleare, averse to going deep.
(10:27):
It just helps me understand it.
Yeah, you just saidsome significant things
that I feel could be...
several day trainings, ifthey really want it to be.
And so when you were talkingabout the interest convergence,
I thought, yes, oh my goodness,that is absolutely accurate.
I appreciate you explaining itto what that actually meant.
(10:49):
I remember when I was in gradschool, that was the one that
I had the most difficultywrapping my mind around.
For some reason, Ijust could not get it.
So thank you for doing that.
I agree that it does feel thatone of the reasons that we
stay in the surface place isbecause organizations that might
(11:11):
want to appear as if they'redoing the work don't want to
do the deeper work, so they atleast, here's what I'm going
to contribute to the situation.
There is that.
I also feel that thereis a widely shared not
knowing what to do.
A widely shared notknowing what to do.
I've been recently in this lastyear, I've had, I've just been
(11:34):
in so many spaces where I've hadto create content, curriculum
in various capacities.
And I've had to doa lot of research to
look for ways to bring
experiences that are impactful.
And I'm looking forscenarios and snippets.
I'm looking, I was justlooking for so much stuff.
(11:56):
I was getting so frustratedbecause there's not a lot
of stuff out there forpeople to learn beyond the
stereotypical surface stuff.
And when I say that, I mean,there's a lot of learning about
biases at a surface level.
There is a lot in like thescenarios that are generated.
When I say scenarios, I mean,you know how they give examples
(12:19):
of here's what this can looklike, and microaggressions.
And I'm looking for examplesof the deeper stuff.
And it's thestereotypical examples.
It's don't touch ablack woman's hair.
Don't talk aboutsomeone's accent.
Don't, it's very, it'slike that everywhere.
And I'm looking for the morenuanced, complex situations,
so I can't find it.
(12:40):
And that's just one example.
So in many different examples,I have been realizing, oh
my goodness, this stuffdoesn't really exist.
People aren't talking aboutthe true complexity of our
interactions with each otherand the changes that we're
actually talking about.
(13:01):
Beyond, here arethe do's and don'ts.
Here are these checklists.
Here's your guide.
Do these steps.
And even those aren'tsuper tangible for people
to get how to wrestle withand do behavior change.
Now I'm not sayingthat nothing exists.
What I'm saying is...
(13:21):
Overall, there'snot a lot out there.
And I think that contributesto the staying in the surface.
There's not examples.
And I don't think that'sa reason to not do any
deeper work at all.
I do not.
I'm just thinking that'sa contributing factor.
It's hard to find whatstuff can look like.
It really is.
(13:43):
I heard you scoff at something.
I don't remember where itwas and I'm super curious.
And what was that thought?
I said microaggressions.
That's what, whatwas that about?
Oh, yeah.
No, it was just, it wasagreement, basically.
It's all that surface levelstuff that's out there.
I think the reason I scoffedis because it's not effective.
And actually, it now hasbeen proven that anti bias,
(14:06):
implicit bias trainingslike are not effective.
Because, that isabout awareness.
Yes.
and that's important, becausesome people aren't even
aware of the, that they havebiases or how they play out.
But that's just likethe very first, baby
step in doing this work.
So that's where, that'swhy I scoffed because yeah,
like you find all of theseexamples out there, and it's
(14:28):
a good start, but it's notgoing to get us anywhere.
It really isn't.
Yeah, that's wherethat came from.
Yeah.
I have two questions, and I'mnot sure which one to ask.
I'm going to put apin on one of them.
And I think it could be helpful,I'm thinking about listeners,
hearing this and understandingwhat we're saying conceptually.
(14:53):
And I'm wondering if we couldtalk about how do people
know if they're engagingin the surface stuff?
Like, what kinds of thingswould they be thinking
and feeling and doing?
As individuals or evenin their organization.
And I know that thisquestion could be answered
with a lot of things.
So maybe we don't haveto name everything.
(15:14):
But give people a senseof if you're doing this
stuff and this is what'shappening in you, you're
likely at the surface level.
What, what do you thinkabout what I'm saying?
Yeah, no, and I can giveyou a short response.
I think that if it
I got it.
Yeah, I got it.
If it feels good and you'rein there and you're like,
(15:36):
yeah, this is working.
I'm feeling good.
And you leave the sessionor whatever it is, like the
time together, the training,like, oh, yeah, I feel good.
Then you're engagingin surface level stuff.
Because if you reallywant to change.
And you really want to interactdifferently and transform,
it's not going to feel good.
(15:58):
And I think that's likeus as social workers.
I think that's why we're good atthis type of work because like
we understand we incorporatelike the clinical aspects of
social work into this DEI work.
Like the general frame or termthat I use is anti-racist or
anti-racism, like intersectionalanti-racist work for myself.
(16:19):
But, it doesn't, like, youknow, again, taking back
to social work, it doesn't,therapy doesn't feel good.
When we were in school,hearing, it gets worse
before it gets better.
That's how you know thatyou're changing or that
growth is happening whenit doesn't feel good.
Like, issues of race and, like,all of its intersections, that's
some heavy, long term standing**** that we have to work through.
(16:43):
That and that's why westay at the surface level
because we don't wantto feel uncomfortable.
We don't want to, I'vechanged it, I used to say,
we have to look at our dirtyinsides, but I've changed that
framing a little bit becauseI don't feel like at the
core, our insides are dirty.
It's just at our core, likeour insides are good and pure
and it's all these layers thathave been added to it that
(17:03):
we've been socialized through.
That those are the layers thatwe have to start to pull back.
And that's not easy,like that's really hard.
So yeah.
So just getting back toanswering your question, if
knowing you're at the surfacelevel is when you feel good and,
knowing that you're actuallydoing the work is when it
doesn't feel good and it's hard.
(17:23):
And when you want to leave.
I think that's another thing.
I'll tell you, I've been firedfrom a couple of potential like
consulting jobs because, folksare like, well, that's not
really what I was looking for.
That's not reallywhat we had in mind.
And my take is becausewhat I offered was doing
more of the deep work.
(17:43):
if it's within an organization,building that what I call
professional intimacy.
If you're serious about this andyou want to transform culture
and whatever group that you'rein or that you're a part of,
like you have to build intimacy.
And I say professionalintimacy to make people feel
a little better, safer about
and being intimate, withlike their colleagues, again,
(18:05):
because that's not whatwe've been socialized to,
how we've been socialized tointeract in the workplace.
Because this work is hard andit's personal, you have to
build trust amongst the peoplethat you're working with.
And, yeah, I think that'swhy, yeah, some folks that
I've, I'm not working withthem is because they're like,
no, that's not what, it'snot what we had in mind.
(18:26):
Or that's not what we need.
Yes, oh my goodness.
I, thank you, agree witheverything that you said and I
love the way it started with,okay, the answer's really easy.
It's when it feels really good.
(18:46):
And I just flashed toso many situations where
that makes so much sense.
And it's really interestingbecause as someone who leads
this work, encourages this work,
there's a lot of expectationsetting that I try to do
upfront with, okay, this isgoing to be a great thing.
(19:08):
And it's going to be a struggle.
And there's something aboutthe upfront- ness that
still doesn't capture thereality of the situation.
And whether it's individuals,teams, or groups, there is
this inevitable place thatpeople and organizations
will reach where it's real.
(19:28):
It requires a lot inyour terms, professional
intimacy, in mine, I don'tcall it a bunch of things.
It's just themessiness of the work.
And it really justtouches on requiring us
to look at ourselves.
When it gets there, peopleeither stop, pull back,
or even something that Iwonder is an undertone of
(19:50):
what you're saying, I haveexperienced, or even blame.
So when people don't feel goodabout the work, if there are
struggle points, or it lookslike it's not going well,
they leave a meeting or asituation and it's it's heavy.
There is an association tothat experience that, this
isn't the right way to do it.
And that is not.
(20:12):
Now, it is within the realmof possibility that things
aren't going well becauseit's not a good approach.
That's obviously a thingfor us to acknowledge.
However, it is a verycommon experience that
people reach that place.
It doesn't feel good, and thenthere's so many reasons that
come up that we rationalizeas humans that, no, this isn't
(20:34):
the right way to do it, orI'm going to escape because
of my own personal stuff.
Or, as an organization,we don't got time to
do it, whatever it is.
But the blame thing is theone that I, as a person
leading this work, and I thinkthis is relevant to either
someone who has an actual job,committee work, consultants,
people leading this work.
(20:55):
When people experience thatstruggle area, the people
leading get blamed that it'snot working and it's not good.
Especially, let me justsay that, they get blamed.
And oftentimes there hasn'tbeen enough time put in to
even experience the change.
And I just don't love thatassociation between it's
(21:16):
doesn't feel good, thatmeans it's not working well.
Something needs to change- theperson or the group leading
it, or we've got to stop.
We need to do something else.
And then there's anescape back to comfort.
I feel like I'msaying a lot of stuff.
My mind's going in a bunchof different directions, but
you just got me thinking,you got me thinking, Nicole.
(21:38):
I mean, everything you're sayinglike makes perfect sense to me.
And that blame part isit happens and it's,
yeah, I think that's key.
Like we want to cut andrun when it gets hard and
that's understandable,Like people, and that's, I
think that's another thing.
Like people chooseto go into therapy.
But if you're at a workplaceor at an organization,
(21:59):
a lot of times this DEIwork gets placed on you.
And it's not somethingthat you want to do.
I think that's like awhole other part of that.
Yeah, yep, yeah, so you knowwhat, look, I knew these
conversations were gonnabe hard because it, because
of the different areas andpaths you can take with it.
DEI work is a thing that peopledo, or organizations will
(22:23):
do as a thing on the side ofregular business practices.
They'll encourage employees.
If you care about this, ifyou're passionate, go over here
and do this thing on the side
and then here's our work thatwe're doing instead of thinking
about it as an integral partof regular business practices.
(22:46):
One of my struggle pointsin leading this work is
getting people to see thatdiversity, equity, and
inclusion is like the vehiclefor org culture change.
If an organization cares aboutdoing things for its employees,
therefore translating towhatever the service is, then
(23:08):
they would engage in practicesthat are responsive to the
employees that are there.
Responsive and inclusive.
So it's not, I think peopleover associate DEI with
specific topics, specificcultures, identities.
It's not, it isn't that.
It is a regularbusiness practice.
And I've been saying,honestly, DEI work is as
(23:29):
essential as an HR department.
I don't know a business thatdoes not have an HR department.
Why?
Because it's veryimportant and it impacts
everything and everyone.
It's essential forbusiness practices.
I feel that DEI is the same.
But that is nothow it's treated.
So it's really easy for thatto contribute to surface stuff.
(23:50):
There's only so much thatorganizations are going to be
able to do with DEI practicesas this separate thing over
here that can just contributeto regular practices in pieces.
I hope that makes sense, butthat's where my brain is going.
It's really hard toget people to see that.
It's very hard.
(24:10):
Yeah, and then to me,that's where interest
convergence comes in.
I hate to focus onorganizations' bottom lines
or like, I was, cause I wasgoing to say incentivize.
But that's the reality.
So what is going toincentivize whatever
group you're working with?
What's going to incentivizethem to do this work and
to understand that it'scritical to their success?
(24:32):
I think that's it.
For me, like the way to thinkthrough like a, like the
approach to that particulargroup, whatever particular
group you're working with, isit like, how do we get them
to see that this is gonna helpimprove whatever their goal is?
If it's a corporation, ugh, Ihate to say it, but you know,
to increase their bottom lineor, even worker productivity
(24:53):
or retention, or if it'san academic program, even
retention of students or,the recruitment of students.
It's that.
It's like getting them tomake those connections of
why this is important andto know and understand,
like you said, it's not justsomething that's ancillary.
It's not just somethingthat's on the side.
(25:13):
Like it needs to be central andintegral to the, because it is
to the work that they're doing.
I there's something you said,I'm just having this like
visceral response to it.
And I wonder if you everhave this experience.
I just really, okay.
I personally struggle withfeeling like I have to convince
(25:38):
organizations and leaderswhy this is important to do.
And I really struggle withhaving to prove here's
how it, affects your moneyor whatever else it is.
I really struggle with that.
And on some level I tryand give some information
there, but I think one areathat, I'm just being honest.
(26:01):
One area that I know I havebeen judged for is that I focus
way more on employee experiencethan I do how it translates to
services and bottom line andproductivity and efficiency.
(26:24):
I know that's important.
I guess that's the thing.
I get that's important,but my heart is in
employee experience place.
Like the, what ishappening in the workplace.
The experiences ofpeople working there.
Their satisfaction, theirsafety, their wellness, that
stuff is more important tome than the other things.
(26:47):
And I feel like when Isay that, I'm saying other
people don't care aboutthat, and that's not it.
It's just, I don't think Ido a great job of connecting
those external dots.
I don't like doing it.
It bothers me.
And maybe that makes me a nottraditionally successful, DEI
person, but I just, I don'tknow how you feel about that.
(27:08):
I just had to say that outloud to release it for myself.
I don't like doing that.
I hate it.
I think the first thing Iwant to focus on, you said
something about your heart,like your heart isn't there.
And, I also want to say thisjust to get it out in the
universe is that we all needto trust our inner selves.
If that's our gut or our heartor like whatever inner voice
(27:30):
that we have inside of us that'stelling us in any situation.
Even like I think aboutin terms of safety.
If your gut and your insidesare telling you this doesn't
feel right or this doesn'tfeel safe or I don't want
to work this way, that'swhat we should follow.
And I think that's what makesyou a good, an exceptional, DEI
expert, is because you're notfollowing this traditional path.
(27:51):
You're following your heart.
And my take on it is thatyou focus on the worker,
because to me, like thatis what's most important.
And it counters the whitesupremacy culture that like
places this hierarchy of who'simportant and what we, and who,
(28:12):
and what we should focus on.
As opposed to the folksat the bottom, like the
line staff or whatever.
But we know that likethe line staff are the
ones that set the tone.
They're the ones whoactually do the work.
And if they're happy, andthey're fulfilled at, they're
going to produce and it's, it'strickle up versus trickle down.
(28:34):
That's, what's goingto be most effective.
And the folks at the top are theones that are used to we need to
focus up here or whatever, likethe discomfort, that doesn't
feel comfortable to them.
It's nuanced to them.
It's not somethingthat they're used to.
So they are going to fight it.
And so I think that you'reabsolutely right in what you're
doing and focusing on thefolks that are most overlooked.
(28:57):
If your organization'shaving problems, it's like,
well, why don't we trysomething different than
what we've always been doing.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you for saying that.
That was
good to hear.
I believe you.
I don't think you're gonnasay something just to say it.
Yeah, with that being areality for me, and I know that
(29:21):
you, I heard already in yourexample of letting clients go
or you being cool with them,letting you go, whatever it
is that you feel the same way.
And one of the thingsthat makes it, that can be
challenging to keep going,like I'm going to keep going.
But one of the things thatcomes up against it and just
challenges me is when lookingout into the universe and
(29:42):
seeing what is available.
There's still anoverwhelmingly amount of
people offering similarservices in the field of DEI.
Similar, in their ownspecial way, but similar,
and it doesn't usually goto those deeper places and
asking people to stay there.
(30:05):
And one of my, like I said,struggle points is like
really staying groundedin that and knowing that
there are organizations andleaders who will look at
what we are grounded in andjudging that and judging it.
And thinking that this is not ahelpful thing to do or thinking
this is the wrong way to gobecause they can see all the
(30:27):
other examples out there tellingthem that's what like and
that's what it should look like.
I just go back to thatfirst thing you said.
In my heart, I just, I knowthe struggle points after doing
Serving others and servingleaders for so long, I know the
struggle point is not how do Iget more information to learn?
(30:47):
I know it isn't.
It is truly strugglingwith how to use this
information, how to speak
things out loud, how to hearstuff, how to self regulate,
how to be challenged,how to change a behavior
that's been ingrained.
How to do that is whatpeople don't know how to do.
(31:10):
And that is a service thatis nowhere near as common in
the surface saturation place.
And I think I'm saying thisout loud for myself, too.
I'm saying this formyself because of all the
judgment that I be gettin.
But this is the thing thatneeds to be paid attention to.
I will really stand hereand be so clear about that.
Just so certain about that.
(31:31):
I just had a wholemoment, so thank you.
You're welcome.
Yeah, hopefully you're feeling-What justified in, in the work
that you do and how you do it.
It also makes me think likewhen I was at, when I worked
at Cal State Dominguez Hills,it's a relatively small program.
It's not like nationallyranked and all of that.
(31:51):
But I used to say that,Dominguez Hills program
is a boutique MSW program.
So like you go to a boutiquehotel, it's smaller.
It's very personalized.
Like you, you're madeto feel like you matter.
That's the way I seethe work that I do.
And that's what I'm hearingin the work that you do.
(32:11):
Like we're going to offeryou a unique and different
experience and everythingelse that's out there.
Like we're not a chain.
We're not
this huge chain that hashotels all around the world.
We do something very differentand it obviously it's not
going to be for everybody.
And for myself, I can'toperate any other way.
I probably could have morecontracts and work with a bunch
(32:33):
of other different clientsif I were to do that surface
saturation type work, but Icouldn't survive doing that.
My soul could notsurvive doing that.
I'm just, I'm sure like you too,we're just gonna keep doing us.
And we're gonna hopefullyattract the people that are
ready to do that work, but thatis something that I've learned.
I've only been doing this forthree years and something that
(32:56):
I've learned in that time isthat, yeah, like my, the way
I approach my work isn't theway, isn't for everybody.
And the, one of the thingsthat I've learned is
that I have to put that.
Up front, I have to put thatout there up front for people
because I don't want towaste their time and I don't
want them to waste my time.
You need to know up frontthat if you want to call
(33:17):
my services unconventional,it's not going to look, the
same as other type of work,but this is the way I do it.
And sometimes I think about,because this work is long term.
And I wonder if theorganizations that have
fired me because I'm offeringlike longer term services.
Like I, it's just what Ihave in my mind that comes
up sometimes is maybe theythink that I'm just trying
(33:39):
to milk this, you know, andlike extend it out because
I want the work for longerperiod of time or whatever.
But that's not the case,like this is long term
work and the stuff that-
and then again, it goes tolike white supremacy culture
of you have to see results.
And everything is, it'sa sense of urgency is one
of the characteristics.
(34:00):
You have to seeresults like, now.
With the social work, weknow it's about building
relationships, buildingthat professional intimacy,
that's, that takes time.
And in order to do this work anddo it in the right way, you have
to spend time doing that first.
And that's the part that'snot going, that's going to
feel like nothing's happeningor nothing's getting done.
So we'll see.
(34:20):
we'll see if itkeeps us employed.
I, you know what, I don't know.
it's not, I get asked a lotof questions from different
people about number of clientsor money or my interest in
doing stuff to make money.
I get that a lot.
And I'm really not making thisup when I say this to people.
(34:43):
I really do notmove to make money.
I don't.
I mean we didn't choosesocial work to be rich.
So
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's it.
Cause if I did want to move tomake money, I would actually
have to to do some thingsthat don't feel right for me.
(35:06):
Like I really would.
And I've been in thesame situation as you.
I've had clients where we'vehad conversations about the
service that we're providingand their experience.
And I care very much aboutthese relationships that
I have with all clients.
And so we talk aboutthe experience.
I hold the things that are mineand there's still this reality
(35:29):
that they're, the servicewe offer cannot be offered
in the way that you want it.
Although there's plenty ofplaces that you can go to
get that type of experience.
I have, I honestly started outdoing that more than I wanted
to with myself and even ourother consultants and just,
(35:53):
it, it had such an impacton us as DEI practitioners.
It had such an impact onus that did not feel good.
We just had to get to aplace where it was okay
to not take clients, notto provide a service and
not prioritize the money.
It's really easy whenyou're starting a business
to want to do things tobring in clients and money.
(36:18):
And ultimately it justdoesn't feel right, you
know, and it's okay.
So when you say, hopefullywe can get, I'm like, we'll
get what we're supposed toget, like it's very much
for me, purpose driven work.
And.
At this point, I'm reallyjust doing things to try to
share as much information aspossible and build a community
that wants to engage inthe deeper stuff together.
(36:41):
And I just know, justI just know that we're
not for everybody too.
That's okay.
It's absolutely okay.
Everybody's not for us,we're not for everybody.
And I think that gettinglike clear about that
for people leading thiswork is super helpful.
And I'm now thinkingabout the other side of
the coin- individuals andorganizations overall.
(37:05):
If you're at that placeof, okay, I can tell we're
doing some surface stuff,we want to do differently.
I wonder, are there some thingsthat we can share tangibly?
If you're in this placeand you hear yourself in
what we're saying and youacknowledge, okay, crap,
we would like to go deeper.
What are some thingsthat people can do?
(37:27):
When you say people you meanlike people within organizations
that are already doing this workor attempting to do this work?
Yeah, so if they'rehearing themselves, they
would hear they're alreadytrying to do this work.
They've already engaged in itand would need to go deeper.
I think too, that whateverwe're sharing can apply to
people who haven't started andcan have on their radars what
(37:49):
to avoid and how to go deeperwhen they reach that point.
But I am talking about, yeah,The organizations, the leaders
in the organization, staff.
If you're in the surface place,what can you do differently?
Yeah.
I think two things.
One, I keep thinking, aswe've been talking, I keep
thinking about Grace Lee Boggs.
One of her quotes is transformyourself to transform the world.
(38:14):
And it's something else that Iwas in reading, Adriennne Maree
Brown's Emergent Strategy.
Where, like with organizingtype work, it's like inch
deep and mile wide versusinch wide and mile deep.
Of like, when you're tryingto create change, you want
to, in general, like mostfolks like want to create
(38:36):
change, like at a larger level.
You want to affect asmany people as possible.
What, Adrienne Brown, and thenshe's the one who quoted Grace
Lee Boggs in her book, is likereminding us of is we need to
do that internal work first.
We need to look inside firstand go deep within first,
because I think then the ideais like, we're going to go
(38:56):
further in creating changeat this larger level if we
start to transform ourselves.
So getting back to ifsomeone's in this space,
What can they do or whatever?
It's really, like youneed to look inside.
People approach me and theythink that they're at a certain
point, on their anti racistjourney, intersectional anti
(39:17):
racist journey, and they thinkthat they're good and they're
like, my people need this.
Obviously they're notexplicitly saying that.
But they consciously believe it.
I'm here and I need to bringmy folks along with me.
There's really a lot of internalself work, that critical self
analysis that needs to happen.
Take an honest look atyourself and because like
(39:41):
with white supremacy culture,we all participate in it
and perpetuate it regardlessof what we look like.
Regardless of our intersectionsof power, privilege, oppression.
We're all in it together.
And that means that we needto do that self work first.
And that can also mean thatthe other part that I was
(40:02):
going to get to is that alsomean people and folks in power
may need to take a step back.
Take a step back and say, I'verecognized that I need to do
this work, and I may not bethe person to be leading the
organization at this time.
I need to step back andlet someone else lead,
or I need to step backand do myself work first.
And that goes back to thefact that this takes time.
(40:24):
You're not going to seechange right away and don't
get frustrated if you'renot seeing change happen.
Even in six months.
You might see some, a little bitof movement forward, but know
that this is going to take time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you said, leaders mightneed to take a step back,
I just knew, I said, oh,you're going to make people
(40:47):
uncomfortable with that.
Wow.
I love that though.
I actually have not,I have not heard that.
I really have not.
It's fascinating to think about.
It really is.
In what capacity can Iserve an organization that
is trying to transform?
In what ways am I contributingto or in the way of?
(41:10):
Is there any part ofmy own journey that's
halting the direction?
Do I need to change my capacity?
That's fascinating.
I have not heard that.
and I love the focuson the inner self.
It does take time.
Especially when people arewanting to do a bunch of
strategies in the organization.
When the suggestion is Hey,have you looked at yourself?
(41:32):
Putting the self and thatwhole process in the equation
of wanting to do all thosethings, it drastically
lengthens a process thatpeople are conceiving.
Right.
And I think that's anotherreason why people would avoid.
So I love that suggestion too.
I think realistic expectationsetting too of all of
this stuff that we'retalking about is it does.
(41:53):
When we say years, I still don'tthink, just as I said earlier,
that when we say- Hey, it'shard for people to grasp what
that is until they're in it.
When we say it's long, it'shard for people to grasp what
it is until they're in it.
And then when they're init in both of these places,
there's an association withsomething must be wrong.
It's not going right.
(42:14):
Yeah.
And those are the placesto- can we hold here?
Or not hold, but can weproceed in this area?
Because this is theplace that you will stop.
Keep going.
And I, for me, I wantto bring it back to the
place that we started.
Because we were talking aboutthese different acronyms.
And you use anti racist,intersectional, I say DEI,
(42:39):
you talked about JEDI, andthen there's EDI, and then
there's DEIB, and there'sso many different acronyms.
And if I were to suggestanything, just even in that
area, it's, be mindful ofhow much time is spent there,
cause It's not importantto pick an acronym that
sounds good, feels good.
(43:00):
An approach should be chosenbased on the specific needs
and experiences that arehappening in an organization.
What will happen is people lookout into the world and say,
oh, that's, we like that one.
That one feels good.
And we want to do that.
We want to bring it here.
And then it just getsplastered all over websites and
documents and internal things.
(43:22):
But it did not get selectedor chosen from a thorough
understanding and accountof what is happening
in an organization.
When people choose outwardthings and bring them in to
fit inside and do not baseit off of a really good
understanding of the needs of anorganization, it will be a miss.
(43:45):
It will absolutely be a miss.
And another suggestion isto be mindful of the balance
that's needed between language.
Language is important inorganizations so everyone
has a shared understandingof what things mean and
the direction and all ofthat other good stuff.
But, places will spend so muchtime in word land that there
(44:07):
is an avoidance of action.
Because people want...
another white supremacyculture characteristic is
worship of the written word.
Like people just want likethe words, like I just,
these make me feel good.
And will committee the wordstill- they'll spend so much
time and not go into action.
(44:28):
So I just, I want to be clearthat language is important,
but to find the balance.
Having the right acronym, havingthe right words to share on
a website, having the right,that's, not the only factor.
And in all that you do,it really does need to
connect to the actual need.
Not the perceived one basedon someone else's stuff that
(44:51):
seems like it works for them.
Not that.
And when it is rooted inthe need of an organization,
the needs of employees,and that need being
understood beyond a survey.
Like a real need.
It could be surveys, itcould be focus groups, it
could be like personal, areally solid understanding.
(45:13):
When we develop things basedon that need, there is a
certainty in the approach then.
You can always go back toknowing what your organization
needs and then decidingtogether from there where
to go instead of choosingoutside and coming in.
That would be mysuggestion or suggestions.
I don't even know.
I said a few things.
(45:33):
Yeah.
No, I love all of that.
And you're, I completelyagree with all of it.
And as you were talking,I was thinking, I think
that it can be how to startthe process or how to move
forward for organizations.
Just tie it into yourstrategic planning process.
It could be just anorganization or whatever it is.
(45:54):
When I say organization, I mean,whatever you want it to be.
If it's a small group of people,an academic program, if it's
a large corporation, whatever.
There's] a problem.
Like things aren't,people aren't happy or we
want to respond to this.
I think two things,like one, tie it into
your strategic planning.
Because then you don't have to.
Tie some languageor acronyms to it.
(46:15):
This is part of our, if you wantto call it, if you recognize
that your organization needschange or needs transformation,
call it transformative work.
But then also startwith conversations.
Get together and start to haveconversations of talk to your,
the, your line staff, like theworkers of what is going on?
How are you feeling?
(46:35):
What are you not happy with?
What is working?
Just start to talk to each otherand see what comes up from that.
It's like when you'rewriting anything, an article
or a chapter or a book.
You write first and thenyou write your intro
at the end or you, thenyou title it afterwards.
Because you're justgetting it all out.
And then you could startto maybe put some sort
(46:56):
of structure around it.
So that would be followingup on what you just said.
That would be mycontribution to that.
I got to add something to whatyou just said too, cause then I
thought for places that decide,okay, that sounds good for me.
Let me do that.
Another expectation settingthing that organizations
(47:20):
don't fully prepare for, evenif they're well intentioned
and trying stuff, is whenyou have the conversations.
When you do different methods tounderstand what's happening in
an organization, you will hear.
It's not a, if it's,you will hear things
(47:42):
that are hard to hear.
That don't make you feel good.
That could be about youas an individual leader.
It could be aboutleadership teams.
It could be aboutspecific teams.
There is going to be stuffthat you hear that you don't
like, that doesn't feelaligned with who you are as
a person, doesn't feel realto you because you feel like
(48:04):
you have an understanding.
Doesn't feel like it makessense given some of the feedback
you get from people thatyou trust that maybe aren't
giving you a full picture.
There is going, there isa reality that you will
hear all of these things.
And to expect that.
And to prepare for yourown internal response
(48:25):
to that, is going towant to be to reject it.
To find a way to discountit, to be defensive,
to want to step away.
That, I've seenit so many times.
When given real information,I've seen a lot of
responses to reject.
And discount, and avoid,be angry, retaliate against
(48:49):
this very thing that yousaid that you wanted to do.
Because I think theexpectation was, I'm doing
good work, I just need theinformation to do good work.
Part of your good workis knowing what will
happen when you open thedoor to the feedback.
And I felt that I had myown responsibility to be
clear about that very realexperience, human experience.
(49:11):
There's nothing wrongwith it if you choose to
lean into it and change.
There can't be something wrongwith it if you are very well
aware this is gonna happen, youdo all of this work, you hear
from people and you decide,never mind, I don't like it.
It's not real.
That can do some real harm.
So I appreciate what yousaid and I just wanted to
add that extra part becauseit's a really real thing.
(49:33):
Yeah, no, that's important.
Thank you for adding that.
We could just keep going because
I know.
what you just said made methink about what that takes
to be able to take that in.
Preparing folks whereyou're going to hear
something that's hard.
And then, I think aboutBrené Brown also is like the
vulnerability and the shame.
And also the fact thatleaders are very seldom
(49:53):
taught to be leaders.
People get placed intomanagement positions for various
reasons, and then leadershippositions for various reasons.
And there very rarelyis any sort of like
training or anythingthat goes along with it.
So they're placed inthis position of greater
responsibility, and folksdon't know what they're really
getting into and know what ittakes to lead, in this way where
(50:18):
leaders have to be, ifthey want to be infected,
infected, effective, theyhave to be vulnerable,
they have to be humble.
And they have to understand,we all have to understand these
things, but shame, you know,is what I was going to say.
When you get called outor called in on something,
like you feel shame andwe have to know how to
(50:38):
react and respond to that.
and to understand, like yousaid, too, that's just part
of the human experience.
And I think that's somethingelse that can work in our
favor when we're working withfolks is that, all of this is
tied to the human experience.
These are all human feelings,real human feelings that
we have, that we need totake ourselves out of our
comfort zone to step into.
(50:59):
Vulnerability beingthe main one for me.
Mmhmm.
And for leaders, it'sthe humility part.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Ugh, I promise this is gonnabe the last thing I say.
To add to.
I don't know.
I don't even know if Ican keep that promise.
Nevermind.
I just, I feel inclined to givea, an example of good intentions
(51:26):
and faced with reality,
what it can look
like.
Maybe not explicitly, butwhat I mean is because
we're talking about hearingfrom an organization or
hearing from staff toknow how to do different.
And after conducting a prettythorough account of what's going
(51:47):
on in an organization via focusgroups and things like that, and
putting together a good senseof what was happening, it was
presented to a leadership team.
And the response fromthe leadership team
was, angry, upset, and adenial of what was there.
And their proof of it not beingreal is hearing from some people
(52:08):
who participated in the focusgroups that's not what happened.
And I was...
It was a little,it was interesting.
And I still, every time I getfeedback, I really want to hear.
And are any, maybeI'm missing something.
It's possible.
I don't think so because wealso go through recordings of
these things to, to theme it.
(52:30):
And I tried to hold a levelof hold them accountable
to level of curiosity.
We agreed to come back.
Came back after watching itagain, watching them again,
it wasn't just one video.
And came back with a certaintyof our, what we're sharing
with you is accurate.
(52:50):
I, as a facilitator ofthose focus groups, I am
certain and can tell youthat this is accurate.
And it was still justdenial from a leader
in the organization.
And in that space, I amgetting messages from
leaders in that same roomwith them at the same time.
Telling me how they reallyfeel and how the leader
(53:14):
has chosen to practice notbelieving because they hear
from other people things thatmake them feel good about
their decision to not engage.
I'm getting actual messages.
And it was such a real lifeexample of being presented
with very real informationcoming back and saying- Hey,
(53:36):
and myself and other peopleare research eval, we're very
certain this is the case.
I shared why it's possiblethat this person would
hear different messaging
from people in the focus groups.
Maybe there's fear thatthey're associated with that.
So that relationship, which Itried to explain those dynamics.
It was complete dismissal.
(53:57):
And it was really fascinatingthat in that same room, there
are people messaging that theydon't agree, but they know the
outcome of the situation becauseof how the leader has led.
And it, you know, itmade me, I remember that
made me very, very sad.
I was frustrated too, butit was, it was a reality
sometimes there are people whomight not be ready, haven't
(54:22):
done that internal work.
And I'm giving this examplebecause this is what it
can look like if you don'tdo the internal work.
If you're not prepared tohear, if you don't know what
your initial response is goingto be, you are sitting in a
position of power to choose.
To do or not do somethingwith this information.
And unfortunately thisperson chose to not do.
(54:43):
And we also decided to severour professional relationship
as contractor, contractee.
But that's real.
And I think that'swhy I'm sharing it.
This is real stuff that happens.
And I would hope that maybewith time that person might
decide to do differentlyand maybe the impact isn't
continuing to exist there.
(55:04):
My goodness.
It's significant.
If people do not chooseto really know themselves.
Yeah.
It's so significant.
Yep.
Absolutely.
It is.
Yeah.
Yes.
To all of that, like that
Yep.
Yep.
And if the people that arein like leadership positions
don't recognize that they haveto do the self work, you're
(55:25):
not going to get anywhere.
And that's what's so sad andfrustrating is that this person
is like the holder of powerand potential for change.
But if, cause those folks thatwere messaging you on the side,
they don't have the power orthey didn't feel empowered
to, cause there's more thanone of them, to challenge
(55:47):
in that space, to openlychallenge the leader, for fear
of consequences, I'm sure.
So then, then it justall falls apart because
of this one person.
Yeah.
And folks in leadershippositions need to
understand that.
Need to understandthat responsibility.
Yep.
Hmm.
In terms of, how doyou do that self work?
(56:10):
And like when I do presentor did because I'm trying to
move away- I'm moving moretowards doing that deeper
work and away from onetime trainings and stuff.
But when I did, trainings onlike CRT, Critical Race Theory
101, and I talked about thedifferent tenets and things.
And understanding, like thetenets that like race is a
(56:31):
social construction, racismand other isms are ordinary.
Like they happen every day.
Understanding those in context,understanding that we have
been socialized here in theUnited States to believe
certain things about certaingroups of people for centuries.
So not just I've been socializedto think a certain way in
my, I'm 47, so my 47 years.
(56:52):
But there's centuries ofsocialization that have
preceded me that has createdthe culture that we're in.
And then that informs anytype of information we take
in that informs whatever wewatch on our screens, movies,
television shows, podcasts,all of these things, our
textbooks, like all of that.
And so it's thisunlearning process that
(57:16):
we have to go through.
So it's just reiterating.
And also for me, hopefully ithelps folks when they're doing
the self work, it helps themtake that, pressure off of
themselves that they're a badperson or that feeling of I
have these biases for a reason.
It's not just me.
I'm a bad person.
S***, I feel this wayabout this group of people.
(57:36):
Well, that's, that's the onlymessage that we've gotten
about this group of peopleour whole entire lives.
Again, that's been ingrainedin our society for centuries.
So hopefully on some levelthat helps people to have a
little grace with themselvesand understanding this is
the way I've been socialized.
But then that's where theresponsibility comes in
of understanding it like,okay, this has informed
(57:57):
the way I now operate.
It doesn't mean thatI'm a bad person.
Yeah.
now it's my responsibilityto do something with that.
To start to unlearn all of that.
And again, that's whyit takes so much time.
Yes.
Thank you for bringing it backto that whole human concept.
It is absolutely ashared experience.
(58:19):
It really is.
It is.
It is so normal, eventhough we don't speak
it out loud as normal.
I think that's part of thehope of doing this too, is
continuing to normalize it.
You know, like, y'all,we all doing this.
We all doing this.
And even what you were saying,just wrapping it up with, this
(58:42):
whole conversation is not aboutone particular type of person,
one particular demographic, itis a shared experience because
one group of people weren't theonly people getting a message.
We all get the same messages,so we all have these different
ways of seeing people.
(59:03):
We just do, and that's normal.
And that's why it's importantfor us to know ourselves,
and know how it comes up,so thank you for doing that.
This,
Quick resource.
It made me think of, soone of my colleagues, Dr.
Susan Nakaoka introducedme to this video- Jay
Smooth has this video, andI think it was a TED Talk.
(59:24):
And maybe if you just, Googlehis name and, it's like,
why is it hard to talk aboutrace or something like that?
It's a pretty long
oh yeah,
15 minutes of it, he talksabout that and again, he also
humanizes doing that self work.
And so that's just, a resourceI wanted to put out there for
folks to look up, because that,I think helps humanize, that
(59:45):
this work is for all of us.
And that it's okay, likewe're human, we make mistakes.
yeah,
And we,
Yes.
Oh, thank you so much, Nicole,for a really great conversation.
I found myself thinkingand processing and
having to self regulate.
Same.
Great
(01:00:06):
Keeping myself contained,like which place can I
stay in this conversation?
I just, I thank you so much.
And if people want to getin touch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
That's a great question.
Instagram.
My Instagram handleis Amoradelante.
So A M O R and thenA D E L A N T E.
(01:00:28):
That's the best place right now.
And from there, hopefullyin the future, there'll be
other ways to connect with me.
perfect.
Sure.
All right.
Thank you for listeningand or watching.
If you are here with us,please share this video.
Of course, subscribe, butplease share this video with
others so that we can continueto learn as a community.
(01:00:50):
If you want to get in touch withme, you can visit my website
at livingunapologetically.
Com.
You can connect withme via social media.
My links are there.
There are tools that areavailable to help you
deepen your practice.
You'll also have access to mybook, Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Other than that, thankyou so much for listening.
I hope to connect soon.
(01:01:11):
And until then, bye.
Let me
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today's topic is gettingcaught up in surface
saturation and DEI work.
We'll explain a little bitmore about what that means.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI Expert.
If you are new here, we areopenly talking about the
(00:20):
scenarios and issues that comeup in our workplaces and in
other settings where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other, so that we can
learn from them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
And as always, because I weara lot of hats, I want to be
(00:41):
clear that the thoughts, views,and opinions that I share,
they're my own opinions.
They are not as a representativeof agencies that I'm employed
by or contracted with.
(01:05):
Now with me today, Ihave Nicole Vasquez.
Thank you so muchfor being here today.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
It's exciting.
I've been really lookingforward to doing this.
Nicole is, I actually met herthe first time as my professor.
When I was in the Masterof Social Work program
at Dominguez Hills.
(01:26):
She was the first professorthat we had that took a
very different approachto the classroom.
We had typically had, Isee the look on your face.
We typically had a traditionalteaching and there was nothing
wrong with how teachers taught,but you know, when you came
on the scene, it was very muchjust, it was so different.
(01:47):
It was very communal.
It was relationshipy.
It was vulnerable.
You challenged us a lot.
I remember like very specificmoments from your class.
It's just so differentand you have inspired me
in a few different ways.
I remember that experienceand I frequently think
(02:07):
about how I can help otherpeople feel the same way.
So I just wanted to say that.
I've never even told you that.
So I imagine you'resitting there like, what?
I was just like,wow, no, thank you.
That's really nice to hear.
Yeah.
I
Of course, of course.
Now we decided not to dothe traditional bio thing.
I don't know if there's anythingthat you want to share on top
(02:27):
of, how I know you and how wemet or we can totally skip that.
It's up to you.
I guess I would just want toshare like how I identify.
My, dad identifiedas Mexican American.
My mom is animmigrant from Panama.
So I'm bilingual EnglishSpanish speaking.
I identify as AfroLatinx, queer, cis woman.
(02:50):
Born in LA, lived inthe San Gabriel Valley.
Moved to the Midwest, when I wasseven, because of my dad's job.
And then I went toundergrad at the Midwest.
Lived there for a little bitbefore I came back to LA.
So just to give people asense of who I am, where I've
grown up, that kind of thing.
(03:10):
So I'm back in the SanGabriel Valley now.
I've been here for a while.
MSW, MPP, that's public policy.
That's it.
That's what I'dlike folks to know.
Let's
That's it.
That's all.
Yeah, you, you do a lot ofstuff and in preparation for
today, we were talking aboutyour experience of doing
(03:31):
consulting, coaching withleaders, and probably use a lot
of the different experiencesthat you have as your lens
for today, and certainly mine.
So with that, let's get,let's just get into it.
And I started this by sayingthat we are getting into
the surface saturation,and I don't think that's a
(03:52):
common term that people use.
So it might be a good ideafor us to just explain, what
are we talking about whenwe say surface saturation?
It's a pretty simple concept.
I think you have your ownterm for it and I have
mine too, and it's noteven surface saturation.
But let's start there and share,what is your take on that?
And then I'll share mine.
(04:13):
like when you said surfacesaturation, I can only assume
like what you mean by that.
So I'll just tell you like whatI think like when you say that.
Surface saturation in relationto you know, DEI work, I
think is, is just like verysurface level like for me,
(04:34):
it's saturating the surface,
Like, we're not getting deep.
The term diversity, equity,and inclusion, and whatever
all the manifestations thathave come from that, I see
them as being very surfacelevel and not going deep into
what that actually means.
And those, those threeletters, in my opinion
(04:56):
have been, co opted, havebeen watered down, and they
don't really mean a lot.
So that's my take on what's,what you mean when you
say surface saturation.
That, to me, that'show I see it too.
I also feel that there is acommercialization attached
(05:21):
to doing DEI work in aparticular way that keeps
people at the surface.
So I would agree witheverything that you said.
It's our communal, forthe most part, communal
participation in over, overlyattaching to the things
that keep us at the surface.
We don't go deep withthe things that we learn.
(05:42):
We're typically learning thingswe're keeping in our head
and not really getting thethings inside of us to help us
struggle with how to use it.
And with the commercialization,I actually attach it to
what you were talkingabout with the acronyms.
People want to beexcited about DEI work.
And then at the same timethey attach it to the things
that feel good and we canmarket it a certain way.
(06:04):
And we can choose certainwords so that we can say that
we're doing something great.
People spend a lotof time in that area.
And I remember you and Iwere talking about this.
I know you don't like theterms and the acronyms
and, you have a response tothat, and I totally get it,
and I share your feeling.
(06:27):
I wonder if you could speak onthat a little bit, the, your
feelings about the acronymsand why people get stuck there.
Yeah, As you were talking,I was thinking about JEDI,
like once we got to JEDI, I'mlike, and when you talk about
like things that make peoplefeel good, It's, and I think
we have to keep that in mindtoo, because with the work
(06:48):
that we do have to think aboutwhat people connect with,
And what people connect to.
And maybe we use that as anentry point in going deeper,
So people may respond to JEDIbecause it's like Star Wars,
like JEDI, like we're gonna,I don't know, whatever, be
Jedi's in this DEI work orwhatever, The J, like justice
(07:11):
is absolutely very important.
But I think because thereason why we don't go
deeper is because we'renot, one, like we're not
conditioned to, and it's hard.
And also as you were talking,I was thinking of two
things, like frameworks,I guess, or, or ideas.
Um, cool frameworks.
(07:32):
Like one of our connectionsis critical race theory,
Because the MSW program atDominguez Hills is rooted
in critical race theory.
One of the tenets ofcritical race theory is
interest convergence.
So when, like when you talkabout surface saturation and
we start to think about andtalk about why it happens,
It's the interest convergence.
Because like when we had ourracial reckoning in 2020,
(07:53):
another racial reckoning,happened recently in 2020.
And you had all of thesecorporate responses
and all of these DEI.
So that's why I was like, that'swhen I was like, no, I'm not
down with these terms anymorebecause it is very performative.
Like people put, corporationsput, organizations,
programs put, messages,statements on their websites.
(08:16):
And that's essentiallyas far as it goes.
It doesn't go anydeeper than that.
And so going back to interestconvergence with critical
race theory is because it'sa global, it's centered in
the US, but it's like thisglobal racial reckoning that
people have to respond to.
And they don't wantto be left out.
And what is it going tomean for their brand?
Because they're going to startto get called out, potentially
(08:38):
like calls for boycottsand those kinds of things.
There has to be a response.
So that's the interestconvergence in terms of the
interest of people who wantjustice and who want racial
equity, those interestsconverge with people that are
corporations that are all aboutor programs, organizations that
are all about the bottom line.
Whether it's making money or,like a lot of the work that I
(09:00):
do is with academic programs.
So it's about attractingmore students, or a
particular type of student.
So those are one, that'sone kind of thing that I
have in mind that like, whythe why of like- why does
surface saturation happenis the interest convergence.
And then the otherone originated with,
the work of Temo Okun.
(09:21):
And that's the white supremacyculture characteristics.
That's just how our societyfunctions, is under this
kind of, umbrella of,of white supremacy and,
like, how it plays out.
Of, like, where Goingback to us not being
conditioned to go deep.
We don't talk about ourfeelings in the workplace.
We don't, it's verymechanical, like, how are you?
(09:44):
Just to respondlike, Oh, I'm fine.
How are you?
Or inside, you'reprobably falling apart.
Because it's like, not goingto make us feel comfortable
to talk about Oh, I'm stilllike, very personally for
myself, like still grievingthe loss of my father, which
happened five years ago.
And in the first couple ofyears after that happened,
like having to go back to workand stuff, people don't want
(10:05):
to hear like, no, I'm fallingapart inside, and that's hard.
But that's what our, oursociety is like, this
idea of professionalismand what that means.
So those things help me to workwithin these spaces so that I'm
not frustrated by and continueto criticize this culture,
how wide it is that peopleare, averse to going deep.
(10:27):
It just helps me understand it.
Yeah, you just saidsome significant things
that I feel could be...
several day trainings, ifthey really want it to be.
And so when you were talkingabout the interest convergence,
I thought, yes, oh my goodness,that is absolutely accurate.
I appreciate you explaining itto what that actually meant.
(10:49):
I remember when I was in gradschool, that was the one that
I had the most difficultywrapping my mind around.
For some reason, Ijust could not get it.
So thank you for doing that.
I agree that it does feel thatone of the reasons that we
stay in the surface place isbecause organizations that might
(11:11):
want to appear as if they'redoing the work don't want to
do the deeper work, so they atleast, here's what I'm going
to contribute to the situation.
There is that.
I also feel that thereis a widely shared not
knowing what to do.
A widely shared notknowing what to do.
I've been recently in this lastyear, I've had, I've just been
(11:34):
in so many spaces where I've hadto create content, curriculum
in various capacities.
And I've had to doa lot of research to
look for ways to bring
experiences that are impactful.
And I'm looking forscenarios and snippets.
I'm looking, I was justlooking for so much stuff.
(11:56):
I was getting so frustratedbecause there's not a lot
of stuff out there forpeople to learn beyond the
stereotypical surface stuff.
And when I say that, I mean,there's a lot of learning about
biases at a surface level.
There is a lot in like thescenarios that are generated.
When I say scenarios, I mean,you know how they give examples
(12:19):
of here's what this can looklike, and microaggressions.
And I'm looking for examplesof the deeper stuff.
And it's thestereotypical examples.
It's don't touch ablack woman's hair.
Don't talk aboutsomeone's accent.
Don't, it's very, it'slike that everywhere.
And I'm looking for the morenuanced, complex situations,
so I can't find it.
(12:40):
And that's just one example.
So in many different examples,I have been realizing, oh
my goodness, this stuffdoesn't really exist.
People aren't talking aboutthe true complexity of our
interactions with each otherand the changes that we're
actually talking about.
(13:01):
Beyond, here arethe do's and don'ts.
Here are these checklists.
Here's your guide.
Do these steps.
And even those aren'tsuper tangible for people
to get how to wrestle withand do behavior change.
Now I'm not sayingthat nothing exists.
What I'm saying is...
(13:21):
Overall, there'snot a lot out there.
And I think that contributesto the staying in the surface.
There's not examples.
And I don't think that'sa reason to not do any
deeper work at all.
I do not.
I'm just thinking that'sa contributing factor.
It's hard to find whatstuff can look like.
It really is.
(13:43):
I heard you scoff at something.
I don't remember where itwas and I'm super curious.
And what was that thought?
I said microaggressions.
That's what, whatwas that about?
Oh, yeah.
No, it was just, it wasagreement, basically.
It's all that surface levelstuff that's out there.
I think the reason I scoffedis because it's not effective.
And actually, it now hasbeen proven that anti bias,
(14:06):
implicit bias trainingslike are not effective.
Because, that isabout awareness.
Yes.
and that's important, becausesome people aren't even
aware of the, that they havebiases or how they play out.
But that's just likethe very first, baby
step in doing this work.
So that's where, that'swhy I scoffed because yeah,
like you find all of theseexamples out there, and it's
(14:28):
a good start, but it's notgoing to get us anywhere.
It really isn't.
Yeah, that's wherethat came from.
Yeah.
I have two questions, and I'mnot sure which one to ask.
I'm going to put apin on one of them.
And I think it could be helpful,I'm thinking about listeners,
hearing this and understandingwhat we're saying conceptually.
(14:53):
And I'm wondering if we couldtalk about how do people
know if they're engagingin the surface stuff?
Like, what kinds of thingswould they be thinking
and feeling and doing?
As individuals or evenin their organization.
And I know that thisquestion could be answered
with a lot of things.
So maybe we don't haveto name everything.
(15:14):
But give people a senseof if you're doing this
stuff and this is what'shappening in you, you're
likely at the surface level.
What, what do you thinkabout what I'm saying?
Yeah, no, and I can giveyou a short response.
I think that if it
I got it.
Yeah, I got it.
If it feels good and you'rein there and you're like,
(15:36):
yeah, this is working.
I'm feeling good.
And you leave the sessionor whatever it is, like the
time together, the training,like, oh, yeah, I feel good.
Then you're engagingin surface level stuff.
Because if you reallywant to change.
And you really want to interactdifferently and transform,
it's not going to feel good.
(15:58):
And I think that's likeus as social workers.
I think that's why we're good atthis type of work because like
we understand we incorporatelike the clinical aspects of
social work into this DEI work.
Like the general frame or termthat I use is anti-racist or
anti-racism, like intersectionalanti-racist work for myself.
(16:19):
But, it doesn't, like, youknow, again, taking back
to social work, it doesn't,therapy doesn't feel good.
When we were in school,hearing, it gets worse
before it gets better.
That's how you know thatyou're changing or that
growth is happening whenit doesn't feel good.
Like, issues of race and, like,all of its intersections, that's
some heavy, long term standing**** that we have to work through.
(16:43):
That and that's why westay at the surface level
because we don't wantto feel uncomfortable.
We don't want to, I'vechanged it, I used to say,
we have to look at our dirtyinsides, but I've changed that
framing a little bit becauseI don't feel like at the
core, our insides are dirty.
It's just at our core, likeour insides are good and pure
and it's all these layers thathave been added to it that
(17:03):
we've been socialized through.
That those are the layers thatwe have to start to pull back.
And that's not easy,like that's really hard.
So yeah.
So just getting back toanswering your question, if
knowing you're at the surfacelevel is when you feel good and,
knowing that you're actuallydoing the work is when it
doesn't feel good and it's hard.
(17:23):
And when you want to leave.
I think that's another thing.
I'll tell you, I've been firedfrom a couple of potential like
consulting jobs because, folksare like, well, that's not
really what I was looking for.
That's not reallywhat we had in mind.
And my take is becausewhat I offered was doing
more of the deep work.
(17:43):
if it's within an organization,building that what I call
professional intimacy.
If you're serious about this andyou want to transform culture
and whatever group that you'rein or that you're a part of,
like you have to build intimacy.
And I say professionalintimacy to make people feel
a little better, safer about
and being intimate, withlike their colleagues, again,
(18:05):
because that's not whatwe've been socialized to,
how we've been socialized tointeract in the workplace.
Because this work is hard andit's personal, you have to
build trust amongst the peoplethat you're working with.
And, yeah, I think that'swhy, yeah, some folks that
I've, I'm not working withthem is because they're like,
no, that's not what, it'snot what we had in mind.
(18:26):
Or that's not what we need.
Yes, oh my goodness.
I, thank you, agree witheverything that you said and I
love the way it started with,okay, the answer's really easy.
It's when it feels really good.
(18:46):
And I just flashed toso many situations where
that makes so much sense.
And it's really interestingbecause as someone who leads
this work, encourages this work,
there's a lot of expectationsetting that I try to do
upfront with, okay, this isgoing to be a great thing.
(19:08):
And it's going to be a struggle.
And there's something aboutthe upfront- ness that
still doesn't capture thereality of the situation.
And whether it's individuals,teams, or groups, there is
this inevitable place thatpeople and organizations
will reach where it's real.
(19:28):
It requires a lot inyour terms, professional
intimacy, in mine, I don'tcall it a bunch of things.
It's just themessiness of the work.
And it really justtouches on requiring us
to look at ourselves.
When it gets there, peopleeither stop, pull back,
or even something that Iwonder is an undertone of
(19:50):
what you're saying, I haveexperienced, or even blame.
So when people don't feel goodabout the work, if there are
struggle points, or it lookslike it's not going well,
they leave a meeting or asituation and it's it's heavy.
There is an association tothat experience that, this
isn't the right way to do it.
And that is not.
(20:12):
Now, it is within the realmof possibility that things
aren't going well becauseit's not a good approach.
That's obviously a thingfor us to acknowledge.
However, it is a verycommon experience that
people reach that place.
It doesn't feel good, and thenthere's so many reasons that
come up that we rationalizeas humans that, no, this isn't
(20:34):
the right way to do it, orI'm going to escape because
of my own personal stuff.
Or, as an organization,we don't got time to
do it, whatever it is.
But the blame thing is theone that I, as a person
leading this work, and I thinkthis is relevant to either
someone who has an actual job,committee work, consultants,
people leading this work.
(20:55):
When people experience thatstruggle area, the people
leading get blamed that it'snot working and it's not good.
Especially, let me justsay that, they get blamed.
And oftentimes there hasn'tbeen enough time put in to
even experience the change.
And I just don't love thatassociation between it's
(21:16):
doesn't feel good, thatmeans it's not working well.
Something needs to change- theperson or the group leading
it, or we've got to stop.
We need to do something else.
And then there's anescape back to comfort.
I feel like I'msaying a lot of stuff.
My mind's going in a bunchof different directions, but
you just got me thinking,you got me thinking, Nicole.
(21:38):
I mean, everything you're sayinglike makes perfect sense to me.
And that blame part isit happens and it's,
yeah, I think that's key.
Like we want to cut andrun when it gets hard and
that's understandable,Like people, and that's, I
think that's another thing.
Like people chooseto go into therapy.
But if you're at a workplaceor at an organization,
(21:59):
a lot of times this DEIwork gets placed on you.
And it's not somethingthat you want to do.
I think that's like awhole other part of that.
Yeah, yep, yeah, so you knowwhat, look, I knew these
conversations were gonnabe hard because it, because
of the different areas andpaths you can take with it.
DEI work is a thing that peopledo, or organizations will
(22:23):
do as a thing on the side ofregular business practices.
They'll encourage employees.
If you care about this, ifyou're passionate, go over here
and do this thing on the side
and then here's our work thatwe're doing instead of thinking
about it as an integral partof regular business practices.
(22:46):
One of my struggle pointsin leading this work is
getting people to see thatdiversity, equity, and
inclusion is like the vehiclefor org culture change.
If an organization cares aboutdoing things for its employees,
therefore translating towhatever the service is, then
(23:08):
they would engage in practicesthat are responsive to the
employees that are there.
Responsive and inclusive.
So it's not, I think peopleover associate DEI with
specific topics, specificcultures, identities.
It's not, it isn't that.
It is a regularbusiness practice.
And I've been saying,honestly, DEI work is as
(23:29):
essential as an HR department.
I don't know a business thatdoes not have an HR department.
Why?
Because it's veryimportant and it impacts
everything and everyone.
It's essential forbusiness practices.
I feel that DEI is the same.
But that is nothow it's treated.
So it's really easy for thatto contribute to surface stuff.
(23:50):
There's only so much thatorganizations are going to be
able to do with DEI practicesas this separate thing over
here that can just contributeto regular practices in pieces.
I hope that makes sense, butthat's where my brain is going.
It's really hard toget people to see that.
It's very hard.
(24:10):
Yeah, and then to me,that's where interest
convergence comes in.
I hate to focus onorganizations' bottom lines
or like, I was, cause I wasgoing to say incentivize.
But that's the reality.
So what is going toincentivize whatever
group you're working with?
What's going to incentivizethem to do this work and
to understand that it'scritical to their success?
(24:32):
I think that's it.
For me, like the way to thinkthrough like a, like the
approach to that particulargroup, whatever particular
group you're working with, isit like, how do we get them
to see that this is gonna helpimprove whatever their goal is?
If it's a corporation, ugh, Ihate to say it, but you know,
to increase their bottom lineor, even worker productivity
(24:53):
or retention, or if it'san academic program, even
retention of students or,the recruitment of students.
It's that.
It's like getting them tomake those connections of
why this is important andto know and understand,
like you said, it's not justsomething that's ancillary.
It's not just somethingthat's on the side.
(25:13):
Like it needs to be central andintegral to the, because it is
to the work that they're doing.
I there's something you said,I'm just having this like
visceral response to it.
And I wonder if you everhave this experience.
I just really, okay.
I personally struggle withfeeling like I have to convince
(25:38):
organizations and leaderswhy this is important to do.
And I really struggle withhaving to prove here's
how it, affects your moneyor whatever else it is.
I really struggle with that.
And on some level I tryand give some information
there, but I think one areathat, I'm just being honest.
(26:01):
One area that I know I havebeen judged for is that I focus
way more on employee experiencethan I do how it translates to
services and bottom line andproductivity and efficiency.
(26:24):
I know that's important.
I guess that's the thing.
I get that's important,but my heart is in
employee experience place.
Like the, what ishappening in the workplace.
The experiences ofpeople working there.
Their satisfaction, theirsafety, their wellness, that
stuff is more important tome than the other things.
(26:47):
And I feel like when Isay that, I'm saying other
people don't care aboutthat, and that's not it.
It's just, I don't think Ido a great job of connecting
those external dots.
I don't like doing it.
It bothers me.
And maybe that makes me a nottraditionally successful, DEI
person, but I just, I don'tknow how you feel about that.
(27:08):
I just had to say that outloud to release it for myself.
I don't like doing that.
I hate it.
I think the first thing Iwant to focus on, you said
something about your heart,like your heart isn't there.
And, I also want to say thisjust to get it out in the
universe is that we all needto trust our inner selves.
If that's our gut or our heartor like whatever inner voice
(27:30):
that we have inside of us that'stelling us in any situation.
Even like I think aboutin terms of safety.
If your gut and your insidesare telling you this doesn't
feel right or this doesn'tfeel safe or I don't want
to work this way, that'swhat we should follow.
And I think that's what makesyou a good, an exceptional, DEI
expert, is because you're notfollowing this traditional path.
(27:51):
You're following your heart.
And my take on it is thatyou focus on the worker,
because to me, like thatis what's most important.
And it counters the whitesupremacy culture that like
places this hierarchy of who'simportant and what we, and who,
(28:12):
and what we should focus on.
As opposed to the folksat the bottom, like the
line staff or whatever.
But we know that likethe line staff are the
ones that set the tone.
They're the ones whoactually do the work.
And if they're happy, andthey're fulfilled at, they're
going to produce and it's, it'strickle up versus trickle down.
(28:34):
That's, what's goingto be most effective.
And the folks at the top are theones that are used to we need to
focus up here or whatever, likethe discomfort, that doesn't
feel comfortable to them.
It's nuanced to them.
It's not somethingthat they're used to.
So they are going to fight it.
And so I think that you'reabsolutely right in what you're
doing and focusing on thefolks that are most overlooked.
(28:57):
If your organization'shaving problems, it's like,
well, why don't we trysomething different than
what we've always been doing.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you for saying that.
That was
good to hear.
I believe you.
I don't think you're gonnasay something just to say it.
Yeah, with that being areality for me, and I know that
(29:21):
you, I heard already in yourexample of letting clients go
or you being cool with them,letting you go, whatever it
is that you feel the same way.
And one of the thingsthat makes it, that can be
challenging to keep going,like I'm going to keep going.
But one of the things thatcomes up against it and just
challenges me is when lookingout into the universe and
(29:42):
seeing what is available.
There's still anoverwhelmingly amount of
people offering similarservices in the field of DEI.
Similar, in their ownspecial way, but similar,
and it doesn't usually goto those deeper places and
asking people to stay there.
(30:05):
And one of my, like I said,struggle points is like
really staying groundedin that and knowing that
there are organizations andleaders who will look at
what we are grounded in andjudging that and judging it.
And thinking that this is not ahelpful thing to do or thinking
this is the wrong way to gobecause they can see all the
(30:27):
other examples out there tellingthem that's what like and
that's what it should look like.
I just go back to thatfirst thing you said.
In my heart, I just, I knowthe struggle points after doing
Serving others and servingleaders for so long, I know the
struggle point is not how do Iget more information to learn?
(30:47):
I know it isn't.
It is truly strugglingwith how to use this
information, how to speak
things out loud, how to hearstuff, how to self regulate,
how to be challenged,how to change a behavior
that's been ingrained.
How to do that is whatpeople don't know how to do.
(31:10):
And that is a service thatis nowhere near as common in
the surface saturation place.
And I think I'm saying thisout loud for myself, too.
I'm saying this formyself because of all the
judgment that I be gettin.
But this is the thing thatneeds to be paid attention to.
I will really stand hereand be so clear about that.
Just so certain about that.
(31:31):
I just had a wholemoment, so thank you.
You're welcome.
Yeah, hopefully you're feeling-What justified in, in the work
that you do and how you do it.
It also makes me think likewhen I was at, when I worked
at Cal State Dominguez Hills,it's a relatively small program.
It's not like nationallyranked and all of that.
(31:51):
But I used to say that,Dominguez Hills program
is a boutique MSW program.
So like you go to a boutiquehotel, it's smaller.
It's very personalized.
Like you, you're madeto feel like you matter.
That's the way I seethe work that I do.
And that's what I'm hearingin the work that you do.
(32:11):
Like we're going to offeryou a unique and different
experience and everythingelse that's out there.
Like we're not a chain.
We're not
this huge chain that hashotels all around the world.
We do something very differentand it obviously it's not
going to be for everybody.
And for myself, I can'toperate any other way.
I probably could have morecontracts and work with a bunch
(32:33):
of other different clientsif I were to do that surface
saturation type work, but Icouldn't survive doing that.
My soul could notsurvive doing that.
I'm just, I'm sure like you too,we're just gonna keep doing us.
And we're gonna hopefullyattract the people that are
ready to do that work, but thatis something that I've learned.
I've only been doing this forthree years and something that
(32:56):
I've learned in that time isthat, yeah, like my, the way
I approach my work isn't theway, isn't for everybody.
And the, one of the thingsthat I've learned is
that I have to put that.
Up front, I have to put thatout there up front for people
because I don't want towaste their time and I don't
want them to waste my time.
You need to know up frontthat if you want to call
(33:17):
my services unconventional,it's not going to look, the
same as other type of work,but this is the way I do it.
And sometimes I think about,because this work is long term.
And I wonder if theorganizations that have
fired me because I'm offeringlike longer term services.
Like I, it's just what Ihave in my mind that comes
up sometimes is maybe theythink that I'm just trying
(33:39):
to milk this, you know, andlike extend it out because
I want the work for longerperiod of time or whatever.
But that's not the case,like this is long term
work and the stuff that-
and then again, it goes tolike white supremacy culture
of you have to see results.
And everything is, it'sa sense of urgency is one
of the characteristics.
(34:00):
You have to seeresults like, now.
With the social work, weknow it's about building
relationships, buildingthat professional intimacy,
that's, that takes time.
And in order to do this work anddo it in the right way, you have
to spend time doing that first.
And that's the part that'snot going, that's going to
feel like nothing's happeningor nothing's getting done.
So we'll see.
(34:20):
we'll see if itkeeps us employed.
I, you know what, I don't know.
it's not, I get asked a lotof questions from different
people about number of clientsor money or my interest in
doing stuff to make money.
I get that a lot.
And I'm really not making thisup when I say this to people.
(34:43):
I really do notmove to make money.
I don't.
I mean we didn't choosesocial work to be rich.
So
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's it.
Cause if I did want to move tomake money, I would actually
have to to do some thingsthat don't feel right for me.
(35:06):
Like I really would.
And I've been in thesame situation as you.
I've had clients where we'vehad conversations about the
service that we're providingand their experience.
And I care very much aboutthese relationships that
I have with all clients.
And so we talk aboutthe experience.
I hold the things that are mineand there's still this reality
(35:29):
that they're, the servicewe offer cannot be offered
in the way that you want it.
Although there's plenty ofplaces that you can go to
get that type of experience.
I have, I honestly started outdoing that more than I wanted
to with myself and even ourother consultants and just,
(35:53):
it, it had such an impacton us as DEI practitioners.
It had such an impact onus that did not feel good.
We just had to get to aplace where it was okay
to not take clients, notto provide a service and
not prioritize the money.
It's really easy whenyou're starting a business
to want to do things tobring in clients and money.
(36:18):
And ultimately it justdoesn't feel right, you
know, and it's okay.
So when you say, hopefullywe can get, I'm like, we'll
get what we're supposed toget, like it's very much
for me, purpose driven work.
And.
At this point, I'm reallyjust doing things to try to
share as much information aspossible and build a community
that wants to engage inthe deeper stuff together.
(36:41):
And I just know, justI just know that we're
not for everybody too.
That's okay.
It's absolutely okay.
Everybody's not for us,we're not for everybody.
And I think that gettinglike clear about that
for people leading thiswork is super helpful.
And I'm now thinkingabout the other side of
the coin- individuals andorganizations overall.
(37:05):
If you're at that placeof, okay, I can tell we're
doing some surface stuff,we want to do differently.
I wonder, are there some thingsthat we can share tangibly?
If you're in this placeand you hear yourself in
what we're saying and youacknowledge, okay, crap,
we would like to go deeper.
What are some thingsthat people can do?
(37:27):
When you say people you meanlike people within organizations
that are already doing this workor attempting to do this work?
Yeah, so if they'rehearing themselves, they
would hear they're alreadytrying to do this work.
They've already engaged in itand would need to go deeper.
I think too, that whateverwe're sharing can apply to
people who haven't started andcan have on their radars what
(37:49):
to avoid and how to go deeperwhen they reach that point.
But I am talking about, yeah,The organizations, the leaders
in the organization, staff.
If you're in the surface place,what can you do differently?
Yeah.
I think two things.
One, I keep thinking, aswe've been talking, I keep
thinking about Grace Lee Boggs.
One of her quotes is transformyourself to transform the world.
(38:14):
And it's something else that Iwas in reading, Adriennne Maree
Brown's Emergent Strategy.
Where, like with organizingtype work, it's like inch
deep and mile wide versusinch wide and mile deep.
Of like, when you're tryingto create change, you want
to, in general, like mostfolks like want to create
(38:36):
change, like at a larger level.
You want to affect asmany people as possible.
What, Adrienne Brown, and thenshe's the one who quoted Grace
Lee Boggs in her book, is likereminding us of is we need to
do that internal work first.
We need to look inside firstand go deep within first,
because I think then the ideais like, we're going to go
(38:56):
further in creating changeat this larger level if we
start to transform ourselves.
So getting back to ifsomeone's in this space,
What can they do or whatever?
It's really, like youneed to look inside.
People approach me and theythink that they're at a certain
point, on their anti racistjourney, intersectional anti
(39:17):
racist journey, and they thinkthat they're good and they're
like, my people need this.
Obviously they're notexplicitly saying that.
But they consciously believe it.
I'm here and I need to bringmy folks along with me.
There's really a lot of internalself work, that critical self
analysis that needs to happen.
Take an honest look atyourself and because like
(39:41):
with white supremacy culture,we all participate in it
and perpetuate it regardlessof what we look like.
Regardless of our intersectionsof power, privilege, oppression.
We're all in it together.
And that means that we needto do that self work first.
And that can also mean thatthe other part that I was
(40:02):
going to get to is that alsomean people and folks in power
may need to take a step back.
Take a step back and say, I'verecognized that I need to do
this work, and I may not bethe person to be leading the
organization at this time.
I need to step back andlet someone else lead,
or I need to step backand do myself work first.
And that goes back to thefact that this takes time.
(40:24):
You're not going to seechange right away and don't
get frustrated if you'renot seeing change happen.
Even in six months.
You might see some, a little bitof movement forward, but know
that this is going to take time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you said, leaders mightneed to take a step back,
I just knew, I said, oh,you're going to make people
(40:47):
uncomfortable with that.
Wow.
I love that though.
I actually have not,I have not heard that.
I really have not.
It's fascinating to think about.
It really is.
In what capacity can Iserve an organization that
is trying to transform?
In what ways am I contributingto or in the way of?
(41:10):
Is there any part ofmy own journey that's
halting the direction?
Do I need to change my capacity?
That's fascinating.
I have not heard that.
and I love the focuson the inner self.
It does take time.
Especially when people arewanting to do a bunch of
strategies in the organization.
When the suggestion is Hey,have you looked at yourself?
(41:32):
Putting the self and thatwhole process in the equation
of wanting to do all thosethings, it drastically
lengthens a process thatpeople are conceiving.
Right.
And I think that's anotherreason why people would avoid.
So I love that suggestion too.
I think realistic expectationsetting too of all of
this stuff that we'retalking about is it does.
(41:53):
When we say years, I still don'tthink, just as I said earlier,
that when we say- Hey, it'shard for people to grasp what
that is until they're in it.
When we say it's long, it'shard for people to grasp what
it is until they're in it.
And then when they're init in both of these places,
there's an association withsomething must be wrong.
It's not going right.
(42:14):
Yeah.
And those are the placesto- can we hold here?
Or not hold, but can weproceed in this area?
Because this is theplace that you will stop.
Keep going.
And I, for me, I wantto bring it back to the
place that we started.
Because we were talking aboutthese different acronyms.
And you use anti racist,intersectional, I say DEI,
(42:39):
you talked about JEDI, andthen there's EDI, and then
there's DEIB, and there'sso many different acronyms.
And if I were to suggestanything, just even in that
area, it's, be mindful ofhow much time is spent there,
cause It's not importantto pick an acronym that
sounds good, feels good.
(43:00):
An approach should be chosenbased on the specific needs
and experiences that arehappening in an organization.
What will happen is people lookout into the world and say,
oh, that's, we like that one.
That one feels good.
And we want to do that.
We want to bring it here.
And then it just getsplastered all over websites and
documents and internal things.
(43:22):
But it did not get selectedor chosen from a thorough
understanding and accountof what is happening
in an organization.
When people choose outwardthings and bring them in to
fit inside and do not baseit off of a really good
understanding of the needs of anorganization, it will be a miss.
(43:45):
It will absolutely be a miss.
And another suggestion isto be mindful of the balance
that's needed between language.
Language is important inorganizations so everyone
has a shared understandingof what things mean and
the direction and all ofthat other good stuff.
But, places will spend so muchtime in word land that there
(44:07):
is an avoidance of action.
Because people want...
another white supremacyculture characteristic is
worship of the written word.
Like people just want likethe words, like I just,
these make me feel good.
And will committee the wordstill- they'll spend so much
time and not go into action.
(44:28):
So I just, I want to be clearthat language is important,
but to find the balance.
Having the right acronym, havingthe right words to share on
a website, having the right,that's, not the only factor.
And in all that you do,it really does need to
connect to the actual need.
Not the perceived one basedon someone else's stuff that
(44:51):
seems like it works for them.
Not that.
And when it is rooted inthe need of an organization,
the needs of employees,and that need being
understood beyond a survey.
Like a real need.
It could be surveys, itcould be focus groups, it
could be like personal, areally solid understanding.
(45:13):
When we develop things basedon that need, there is a
certainty in the approach then.
You can always go back toknowing what your organization
needs and then decidingtogether from there where
to go instead of choosingoutside and coming in.
That would be mysuggestion or suggestions.
I don't even know.
I said a few things.
(45:33):
Yeah.
No, I love all of that.
And you're, I completelyagree with all of it.
And as you were talking,I was thinking, I think
that it can be how to startthe process or how to move
forward for organizations.
Just tie it into yourstrategic planning process.
It could be just anorganization or whatever it is.
(45:54):
When I say organization, I mean,whatever you want it to be.
If it's a small group of people,an academic program, if it's
a large corporation, whatever.
There's] a problem.
Like things aren't,people aren't happy or we
want to respond to this.
I think two things,like one, tie it into
your strategic planning.
Because then you don't have to.
Tie some languageor acronyms to it.
(46:15):
This is part of our, if you wantto call it, if you recognize
that your organization needschange or needs transformation,
call it transformative work.
But then also startwith conversations.
Get together and start to haveconversations of talk to your,
the, your line staff, like theworkers of what is going on?
How are you feeling?
(46:35):
What are you not happy with?
What is working?
Just start to talk to each otherand see what comes up from that.
It's like when you'rewriting anything, an article
or a chapter or a book.
You write first and thenyou write your intro
at the end or you, thenyou title it afterwards.
Because you're justgetting it all out.
And then you could startto maybe put some sort
(46:56):
of structure around it.
So that would be followingup on what you just said.
That would be mycontribution to that.
I got to add something to whatyou just said too, cause then I
thought for places that decide,okay, that sounds good for me.
Let me do that.
Another expectation settingthing that organizations
(47:20):
don't fully prepare for, evenif they're well intentioned
and trying stuff, is whenyou have the conversations.
When you do different methods tounderstand what's happening in
an organization, you will hear.
It's not a, if it's,you will hear things
(47:42):
that are hard to hear.
That don't make you feel good.
That could be about youas an individual leader.
It could be aboutleadership teams.
It could be aboutspecific teams.
There is going to be stuffthat you hear that you don't
like, that doesn't feelaligned with who you are as
a person, doesn't feel realto you because you feel like
(48:04):
you have an understanding.
Doesn't feel like it makessense given some of the feedback
you get from people thatyou trust that maybe aren't
giving you a full picture.
There is going, there isa reality that you will
hear all of these things.
And to expect that.
And to prepare for yourown internal response
(48:25):
to that, is going towant to be to reject it.
To find a way to discountit, to be defensive,
to want to step away.
That, I've seenit so many times.
When given real information,I've seen a lot of
responses to reject.
And discount, and avoid,be angry, retaliate against
(48:49):
this very thing that yousaid that you wanted to do.
Because I think theexpectation was, I'm doing
good work, I just need theinformation to do good work.
Part of your good workis knowing what will
happen when you open thedoor to the feedback.
And I felt that I had myown responsibility to be
clear about that very realexperience, human experience.
(49:11):
There's nothing wrongwith it if you choose to
lean into it and change.
There can't be something wrongwith it if you are very well
aware this is gonna happen, youdo all of this work, you hear
from people and you decide,never mind, I don't like it.
It's not real.
That can do some real harm.
So I appreciate what yousaid and I just wanted to
add that extra part becauseit's a really real thing.
(49:33):
Yeah, no, that's important.
Thank you for adding that.
We could just keep going because
I know.
what you just said made methink about what that takes
to be able to take that in.
Preparing folks whereyou're going to hear
something that's hard.
And then, I think aboutBrené Brown also is like the
vulnerability and the shame.
And also the fact thatleaders are very seldom
(49:53):
taught to be leaders.
People get placed intomanagement positions for various
reasons, and then leadershippositions for various reasons.
And there very rarelyis any sort of like
training or anythingthat goes along with it.
So they're placed inthis position of greater
responsibility, and folksdon't know what they're really
getting into and know what ittakes to lead, in this way where
(50:18):
leaders have to be, ifthey want to be infected,
infected, effective, theyhave to be vulnerable,
they have to be humble.
And they have to understand,we all have to understand these
things, but shame, you know,is what I was going to say.
When you get called outor called in on something,
like you feel shame andwe have to know how to
(50:38):
react and respond to that.
and to understand, like yousaid, too, that's just part
of the human experience.
And I think that's somethingelse that can work in our
favor when we're working withfolks is that, all of this is
tied to the human experience.
These are all human feelings,real human feelings that
we have, that we need totake ourselves out of our
comfort zone to step into.
(50:59):
Vulnerability beingthe main one for me.
Mmhmm.
And for leaders, it'sthe humility part.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Ugh, I promise this is gonnabe the last thing I say.
To add to.
I don't know.
I don't even know if Ican keep that promise.
Nevermind.
I just, I feel inclined to givea, an example of good intentions
(51:26):
and faced with reality,
what it can look
like.
Maybe not explicitly, butwhat I mean is because
we're talking about hearingfrom an organization or
hearing from staff toknow how to do different.
And after conducting a prettythorough account of what's going
(51:47):
on in an organization via focusgroups and things like that, and
putting together a good senseof what was happening, it was
presented to a leadership team.
And the response fromthe leadership team
was, angry, upset, and adenial of what was there.
And their proof of it not beingreal is hearing from some people
(52:08):
who participated in the focusgroups that's not what happened.
And I was...
It was a little,it was interesting.
And I still, every time I getfeedback, I really want to hear.
And are any, maybeI'm missing something.
It's possible.
I don't think so because wealso go through recordings of
these things to, to theme it.
(52:30):
And I tried to hold a levelof hold them accountable
to level of curiosity.
We agreed to come back.
Came back after watching itagain, watching them again,
it wasn't just one video.
And came back with a certaintyof our, what we're sharing
with you is accurate.
(52:50):
I, as a facilitator ofthose focus groups, I am
certain and can tell youthat this is accurate.
And it was still justdenial from a leader
in the organization.
And in that space, I amgetting messages from
leaders in that same roomwith them at the same time.
Telling me how they reallyfeel and how the leader
(53:14):
has chosen to practice notbelieving because they hear
from other people things thatmake them feel good about
their decision to not engage.
I'm getting actual messages.
And it was such a real lifeexample of being presented
with very real informationcoming back and saying- Hey,
(53:36):
and myself and other peopleare research eval, we're very
certain this is the case.
I shared why it's possiblethat this person would
hear different messaging
from people in the focus groups.
Maybe there's fear thatthey're associated with that.
So that relationship, which Itried to explain those dynamics.
It was complete dismissal.
(53:57):
And it was really fascinatingthat in that same room, there
are people messaging that theydon't agree, but they know the
outcome of the situation becauseof how the leader has led.
And it, you know, itmade me, I remember that
made me very, very sad.
I was frustrated too, butit was, it was a reality
sometimes there are people whomight not be ready, haven't
(54:22):
done that internal work.
And I'm giving this examplebecause this is what it
can look like if you don'tdo the internal work.
If you're not prepared tohear, if you don't know what
your initial response is goingto be, you are sitting in a
position of power to choose.
To do or not do somethingwith this information.
And unfortunately thisperson chose to not do.
(54:43):
And we also decided to severour professional relationship
as contractor, contractee.
But that's real.
And I think that'swhy I'm sharing it.
This is real stuff that happens.
And I would hope that maybewith time that person might
decide to do differentlyand maybe the impact isn't
continuing to exist there.
(55:04):
My goodness.
It's significant.
If people do not chooseto really know themselves.
Yeah.
It's so significant.
Yep.
Absolutely.
It is.
Yeah.
Yes.
To all of that, like that
Yep.
Yep.
And if the people that arein like leadership positions
don't recognize that they haveto do the self work, you're
(55:25):
not going to get anywhere.
And that's what's so sad andfrustrating is that this person
is like the holder of powerand potential for change.
But if, cause those folks thatwere messaging you on the side,
they don't have the power orthey didn't feel empowered
to, cause there's more thanone of them, to challenge
(55:47):
in that space, to openlychallenge the leader, for fear
of consequences, I'm sure.
So then, then it justall falls apart because
of this one person.
Yeah.
And folks in leadershippositions need to
understand that.
Need to understandthat responsibility.
Yep.
Hmm.
In terms of, how doyou do that self work?
(56:10):
And like when I do presentor did because I'm trying to
move away- I'm moving moretowards doing that deeper
work and away from onetime trainings and stuff.
But when I did, trainings onlike CRT, Critical Race Theory
101, and I talked about thedifferent tenets and things.
And understanding, like thetenets that like race is a
(56:31):
social construction, racismand other isms are ordinary.
Like they happen every day.
Understanding those in context,understanding that we have
been socialized here in theUnited States to believe
certain things about certaingroups of people for centuries.
So not just I've been socializedto think a certain way in
my, I'm 47, so my 47 years.
(56:52):
But there's centuries ofsocialization that have
preceded me that has createdthe culture that we're in.
And then that informs anytype of information we take
in that informs whatever wewatch on our screens, movies,
television shows, podcasts,all of these things, our
textbooks, like all of that.
And so it's thisunlearning process that
(57:16):
we have to go through.
So it's just reiterating.
And also for me, hopefully ithelps folks when they're doing
the self work, it helps themtake that, pressure off of
themselves that they're a badperson or that feeling of I
have these biases for a reason.
It's not just me.
I'm a bad person.
S***, I feel this wayabout this group of people.
(57:36):
Well, that's, that's the onlymessage that we've gotten
about this group of peopleour whole entire lives.
Again, that's been ingrainedin our society for centuries.
So hopefully on some levelthat helps people to have a
little grace with themselvesand understanding this is
the way I've been socialized.
But then that's where theresponsibility comes in
of understanding it like,okay, this has informed
(57:57):
the way I now operate.
It doesn't mean thatI'm a bad person.
Yeah.
now it's my responsibilityto do something with that.
To start to unlearn all of that.
And again, that's whyit takes so much time.
Yes.
Thank you for bringing it backto that whole human concept.
It is absolutely ashared experience.
(58:19):
It really is.
It is.
It is so normal, eventhough we don't speak
it out loud as normal.
I think that's part of thehope of doing this too, is
continuing to normalize it.
You know, like, y'all,we all doing this.
We all doing this.
And even what you were saying,just wrapping it up with, this
(58:42):
whole conversation is not aboutone particular type of person,
one particular demographic, itis a shared experience because
one group of people weren't theonly people getting a message.
We all get the same messages,so we all have these different
ways of seeing people.
(59:03):
We just do, and that's normal.
And that's why it's importantfor us to know ourselves,
and know how it comes up,so thank you for doing that.
This,
Quick resource.
It made me think of, soone of my colleagues, Dr.
Susan Nakaoka introducedme to this video- Jay
Smooth has this video, andI think it was a TED Talk.
(59:24):
And maybe if you just, Googlehis name and, it's like,
why is it hard to talk aboutrace or something like that?
It's a pretty long
oh yeah,
15 minutes of it, he talksabout that and again, he also
humanizes doing that self work.
And so that's just, a resourceI wanted to put out there for
folks to look up, because that,I think helps humanize, that
(59:45):
this work is for all of us.
And that it's okay, likewe're human, we make mistakes.
yeah,
And we,
Yes.
Oh, thank you so much, Nicole,for a really great conversation.
I found myself thinkingand processing and
having to self regulate.
Same.
Great
(01:00:06):
Keeping myself contained,like which place can I
stay in this conversation?
I just, I thank you so much.
And if people want to getin touch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
That's a great question.
Instagram.
My Instagram handleis Amoradelante.
So A M O R and thenA D E L A N T E.
(01:00:28):
That's the best place right now.
And from there, hopefullyin the future, there'll be
other ways to connect with me.
perfect.
Sure.
All right.
Thank you for listeningand or watching.
If you are here with us,please share this video.
Of course, subscribe, butplease share this video with
others so that we can continueto learn as a community.
(01:00:50):
If you want to get in touch withme, you can visit my website
at livingunapologetically.
Com.
You can connect withme via social media.
My links are there.
There are tools that areavailable to help you
deepen your practice.
You'll also have access to mybook, Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Other than that, thankyou so much for listening.
I hope to connect soon.
(01:01:11):
And until then, bye.
Let me
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