Clients as Experts and Modeling Accountability: Lessons from Jason Vicente ft Kendrick Dial

If you're feeling frustrated and overwhelmed by the lack of progress in creating a safe and inclusive culture in your social services organization, despite your best efforts to lead and implement change, then you are not alone! Many professionals like yourself may be experiencing a disconnect between their actions and the desired outcome. You may find that despite conducting trainings, implementing policies, and encouraging open dialogue, there is still a lack of accountability and meaningful change within your organization.

There is a lot that can be learned from clients. Join me and Living Unapologetically consultant, Kendrick Dial, in an open dialogue where we learn lessons from Jason Vicente, social service leader and one of our bias coaching clients. You are in for a treat!

 

In this episode, you will be able to:

• Elevate your consulting and leadership techniques with an informed bias coaching perspective.

• Create a supportive space for discussion and growth, emphasizing the need for openness and vulnerability.

• Proactively approach DEI consulting challenges, preparing for transformation and addressing ingrained biases.

• Unveil the intricate interplay of intersectionality in everyday life, highlighting the value of diverse leadership.

• Spearhead culture change by driving proactive solutions and instilling model behavior in your workspace.

 

The guest for this episode is Jason Vicente

We are honored to have the presence of Jason Vicente. His journey is rooted in social services, spending nine impactful years working with young adults who experience homelessness, the LGBTQ communities, and foster care systems. His experience isn't just professional – it's profoundly personal. Jason is here to share his insights and perspectives on what it's been like to receive bias coaching from Living Unapologetically. His unique experiences offer a fresh perspective to leaders looking to grow and foster a culture of inclusivity and respect.

 

One of My Fav Moments: Embrace Challenges in DEI Consulting Navigating the complexities inherent to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) consulting can be tough, but embracing these challenges can lead to more meaningful change. Jason and Kendrick advise that leaders need to exemplify accountability, humility, and openness for successful DEI initiatives. Additionally, they underscore the necessity of readiness and commitment among clients to engage in deep introspection and growth. This transformation, while challenging, can be incredibly rewarding, leading to profound organizational changes and heightened responsibility towards biases and systemic barriers.

 

Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!

• http://www.livingunapologetically.com

• http://www.youtube.com/@livingunapologetically

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/charmaine-utz-lcsw/

• http://www.instagram.com/theunapologetictherapist/

• http://www.facebook.com/livingunapologeticallyservices/

 

To get in touch with Jason Vicente, you can contact him here:

• The Brew Inn Podcast- https://linktr.ee/thebrewinnpodcast

To get in touch with Kendrick Dial, you can contact him here:

• https://kendrickdial.com/

 

The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:00 - Setting the Stage, 00:04:46 - Experience in Bias Coaching, 00:07:32 - Creating a Safe Space, 00:11:11 - Internal Struggle Points, 00:14:52 - The Challenge of Prioritizing Learning, 00:17:14 - Balancing Workload and Learning

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, I am sitting down withJason Vicente and Kendrick
Dial, and the frame is a littlebit different than the other
sessions that I've had so far.
Kendrick and I providebias coaching to various
organizations that'scentered around my book,
Bias-Conscious Leadership.
Jason is one of the peoplethat we are coaching.

(00:22):
So we're sitting downfor a couple of reasons.
One, clients have an expertisethat we can really benefit
from and learn from aspeople leading this work.
So I want to get a sense of whatare the things that you know
that we can have on our radars.
And then two, is to modelwhat it looks like to check
in with clients and see-Hey, what are the things
that we can keep doing thatcan improve our practice?

(00:45):
And also, is there anythingthat you can share with
us that's going to helpus improve our practices?
And maybe those are thingsthat did not go so well.
I'm your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI Expert,
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up in ourinteractions with each other
in professional settings andin settings where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.

(01:05):
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, perspectives shared in
this series, they are my own.
And not as a representativeof any of the agencies that I
work for or I'm employed by.

(01:40):
Thank you both ofyou for being here.
Kendrick for coming back.
Jason for joining this episode.
I am really lookingforward to it because it's
a little different thanyour average situation.
Kendrick and I provide biascoaching to leaders and Jason
is one of the people that wasin the small group coaching

(02:01):
experience with one of theorganizations that we work with.
Kendrick, I don't know if youhave any hopes for our time.
No, I think even, even withJason having all the varied
experiences, maybe even beingable to identify, what made
this a different experiencein comparison to some of
the other things that havebeen done in the past too.

(02:25):
That would be really good.
Jason, welcome here.
Share anything you wouldlike to share about yourself.
You can do something formal,casual, it's totally up to you.
All right.
Sounds good.
Thank you guys for having me.
I appreciate this opportunity.
I'm Jason, a community partnerand small business owner.
I've been working in the socialservices field for nine years,
working with our homelessyoung adults, our foster care

(02:47):
systems, our LGBTQ communities.
Prior to this, I was workingafter school programs and
in a group home setting.
I think my experienceshave been helpful.
Helpful in a way of I'm gettingoutside coaching and it's
helping my day to day withthe work that I do, inside
of work and in the community.

(03:08):
So I do appreciate that fromthis, experience that Charmaine
and Kendrick has given to us.
I acknowledge that this is a...
Kind of putting you on the spot.
We're recording a conversationand asking you to reflect to us.
Hey, this is cool.
But also this is whatyou could do differently.
So before we get into that,I want to ask you, Jason, is

(03:32):
there anything that Kendrickor I- and/or I can do to make
this a safe space for you to beable to share honestly with us?
I think just keep doingwhat you're doing.
All our sessions havebeen safe spaces.
And I feel like I can openit up a little more here.
I feel like this is aplace, where I can grow.

(03:53):
And I think that's whatthis experience these
last, I don't even knowhow, like it was months.
I don't need, the cohortsjust kept coming and I
just kept showing up.
I appreciate you guys forhaving that safe space for
me to be vulnerable as well.
Yes.
Thank you.
Oh, that's too funny.
So when we'd say coaching,Kendrick and I went through

(04:14):
the book and curated amonthly experience for this
particular organization thatwas meant to be a guide to
go through the book, but alsoserve as a way to help people
really look at themselves.
With the book and evenoutside of and tie it to
principles in the book.
So it was very freeflowing and slightly

(04:36):
structured at the same time.
Jason, if you could justshare with us, what was your
experience like in the biascoaching experience with us?
Overall, I think myexperience was...
Like I said, it was great.
We come into I guess theworkplace with our work
biases, like the culturalbiases that we have and our

(04:56):
lived experience, right?
And it's good to have an outsideperspective, which was this
group to continue to coachus through this experience.
We do have our like ourhead coach, which is
my supervisor, right?
that manages,everything on there.
And to have, the assistantcoaches that can hone in on
specific details, which havebeen, to view has been helpful

(05:20):
because you're getting a twoside of two side of things
to view how we do what wedo on a day to day basis.
Anything from experienceslike in the actual sessions
with us that stand out to youabout what that process was.
I think it's.

(05:40):
It's all like trial,trial and error.
One thing that you guys didgreat, or one of the many
things right, that you guysdid great was, have you tried
this, side of things, right?
There's this one issue or maybea situation that I'd share in
these, cohorts, and I wouldsay like, all right, these are
the options that I've tried.
And then you would havethat perspective of,

(06:01):
have you tried this?
Have you, looked at it ina different way, putting
that, yourself in the otherperson's shoes or even
switch parts of whoever'sinvolved in this situation.
So that kind of helped me,like, it's like one of those,
aha moments when you'rejust, like, deep into the
work where you have to takea step back and get, this,
insight and just apply it.
if it doesn't work,let's try something else.

(06:22):
So I think that's been helpful.
And that also helpedwith, me being a little
bit more confident in...
like trying new things too.
So I think that's what's beenhelpful for me on that end.
I, not to detract, soCharmaine, bring us back if I'm
going,
No, you please gowhere you need to go.
I'm not
No, one of the things I wascurious about, because when
you opened up Charmaine andtalking about the safe space

(06:44):
And Jason, you mentioned likethis space right here feels
even safer, maybe even thanthe cohort space to a degree,
if I've read that right.
So I would you mind talkingabout number one, anything
you feel we did or that wasdone to create that safe space

(07:05):
and even what is different interms of the safe space here
versus the safe space therein terms of dynamics for you.
Oh, I think from day one ofthe two of you been welcoming.
Laying out house rules havebeen, very helpful Like
setting out, this is what thiscohort is going to look like.
And then coming from a placewhere it's you're not directly

(07:27):
our supervisor or someonethat works in our field or
where we're like, uh, shouldI answer a certain way?
I can just be open and honest.
And at the same time,it's there's no judgment.
Yeah.
And it's like none of myanswers, I didn't feel
like, the responses werelike punitive where it was
like, why did you do that?
You know, it's justlike, have we tried?
it's always like this we factorthat made me feel a little more,

(07:51):
easier to open up to you guys.
And open up to our cohortbecause I felt like everyone
else was like watching eachother oh, what can we say?
What can we do?
And then when one persongoes, then everyone just
starts flowing out, right?
So that's, that was myexperience with that.
I love, thanks for thatquestion, Kendrick.
And I love the we factorthat made me feel so good

(08:13):
inside when you said that,because it is a we factor.
We go into these spaces,knowing the things that
we know with people who weare tasked with supporting.
And then there's also thingswe too don't know, and
there's things we're activelyworking on at the same time.
Kendrick and I have our ownoffline convos about things

(08:35):
that we experience in spaces,and we're learning too.
So that just reallydid something to me.
It is a we thing.
We really are growing together.
I love that.
Yeah.
I don't know, Kendrick, youlook like you might have
had a response to that, so I
Yeah, no.
What, what?
Well, no, so it's, it's, itjust, it just makes me think
about, number one, I think theintentionality of the space, and

(08:59):
as much as I think as we comeinto it as professionals, I know
from working with Charmaine,it is a space, we're always
on the table for learning.
You know, it is not thatwe're coming into it from
a totally expert space.
And it is, that sense ofcultural humility or even
professional humility,where it's like, yes,
I know my skillset.
I know what I bring to the tableand I'm still open and ready.

(09:22):
If I'm getting something thatI'm not totally confident
in terms of how to navigate.
And even being willing tobe like, let's take a beat
and come back to that.
And so I think that's anotherpart of at least my experience
with it in terms of likerecognizing the collective
wisdom of the room in termsof what you all have and
what we bring to the table,but also recognizing this

(09:42):
is a constant growing space.
At the same time.
I want to point out, I heardintention and I love that
we're intentional with howwe do our work or how we're
having these conversations.
I feel like this is a roomat, you know, when we do meet,
it's like iron sharpens iron.

(10:03):
Like it, like this is, it's inbetween training and personal,
it's a different feeling.
Like it doesn'tfeel like it's work.
Because some of the thingsthat we learn we can apply
it to our daily lives andthat's what I took from being
a part of this cohort yeah,
I, I'm sitting here andI'm thinking this was such
a really cool experience.

(10:24):
And then we're also, we'retalking about the, there's
another side to the stuffthat we're talking about when
we're doing the deeper work.
And I'm really curious, Jason,while you do love learning,
and while you have enjoyedthe experience, I recall
some times where we did askpeople to go deeper or look at

(10:45):
themselves differently or heldsome spaces of accountability.
Do you have, did you haveany internal struggle points
or internal things thatmight have surprised you?
And I'm really asking thisbecause when people think
about doing this work andgetting coaching, I want to
normalize that it is such agreat an enriching experience.

(11:06):
And then there's also thereal lifeness of what the
internal stuff feels like.
So did you have any of those?
I bet I did I come into thespace knowing that I don't
know everything and thatthere's still a lot to learn.
I think that's in everyspace we talk about training.
I had a staff member thatwas like- Oh, we're just

(11:27):
doing another training.
We did this last year.
And so I sat down with themand I said, and I've shared
this, with you guys as well.
I sat down with them andI said, you know what?
Do me a favor.
Learn one new thing in thisnext training and bring
that information back to me.
So he learned one new thing.
That was like the onlything I asked for, right?

(11:47):
He learned one new thing andhe said, Hey, I learned that
this is not like, allright, you've done that
training before, right?
Can you imagine?
It was a refresher, right?
And I said, can youimagine if you went to
a hundred new trainings?
How much more informationwould you gain from that?
And you multiply thatby the years that you're
putting yourself out there,getting all this stuff.
Or, on the other hand, you canbe like- Ah, I just know, this

(12:09):
is another training, and thenyou go, you pass five years in.
How much stuff would younot learn because you're not
showing up into these settings?
Because a lot of times withrefreshers, it might be the
same information, but you geta lot of value with the people
that are showing up and that arereplying to some of these, um,
scenarios or these, questions.
You see it in a different light.
And that's what I get.

(12:30):
Like, for me, I hated school.
This is my biggest, this is mybiggest thing I'll tell people,
I'll tell my participants.
I hate school, but this isanother form of education.
Or in this career field,and I feel like it's going
back to this school settingwithout the school setting.
You don't have the teacher,you don't have this classroom

(12:50):
that you're just like, oh,I gotta go to, I gotta show
up to this class again.
It's no, I get to showup to this class again.
So that's the feeling that Ihave, coming to these cohorts.
Yeah.
I remember you beingvery- a humble learner.
A humble learner.
That was fun.
We could push, normally whatmight push other people's

(13:10):
buttons, you very much satback and thought, huh, I
had thought about that.
I like it.
hmm.
And I'm also curious,Kendrick, did you have
any struggle points?
Cause I don't know if peoplethink about the experience
of the consultants or thecoaches and like really
wanting to support people.

(13:32):
And there's this whole, there isa whole coach experience too and
really wanting to take peoplethrough that intentionality.
Did you have any of those?
Um, so, to your point,actually, I think one thing
I was going to highlight ishow Jason was consistent.
And as a struggle point,it's like when people aren't

(13:53):
consistent And then there's alsothis dynamic where folks come
to the space and, I think we canall have expectations, even if
they're very loose expectations.
And, but those expectationsalso impact how people show
up in terms of what they'rewilling to give and not
willing to give and whatnot.
And so I think sometimes,that particular piece of

(14:16):
it, cause I think me and youwould, Charmaine would come
in and we'd be like, okay,let's have this conversation.
Let's, let's go.
And then it's like, well, whaty'all want, what's come up?
Have you dug into the materialand it's like, yeah, we haven't
really had an opportunityto look at the material.
And yeah, that's notanything really going on
right now, but we know.
We could survey whateverand be like, we know is

(14:39):
some other things that comeon or could be explored.
But to the point of recognizingthat, When you're managing,
when you're actually in it,you're at work and you're trying
to manage all these things,you know what I'm saying,
it's also this prioritizing.
And so I think that'sanother dynamic.
Especially doing this type ofwork is, often people aren't
prioritizing this, learningthese type of skills or learning

(15:01):
these type of dynamics becausethey do challenge you to show
up in a very personal way.
And so with that, that can bethe challenge of like, okay,
we're here because, on somelevel we want to be here,
but then it's just like, howmuch do we really want to
jump into this and whatnot?
I think that was for methe challenge at times.

(15:24):
I think to add to that, it'slike for me just watching,
just watching, those momentswhere it was just us three.
And I'm like, maybe some peopleare not ready at this time.
And\ you talked aboutprioritizing because, I
know, some of our coworkers,there, there's always
crisis like in the work thatwe do in social service.
So I understand that part.

(15:44):
And a month, things likethat, that can hold us up.
But I feel like for thisgroup, I always made this
a priority because I neededthat coaching to help me
get through all this crisis.
You know, I need another,I needed another voice to
get me through that day.
And it's , we cancontinue to just.
Have a pile of crisis, likeone thing after the other

(16:05):
to bring us down or we canfigure ways out to help
alleviate all of that stuff.
And that's what I appreciatedwith like just showing up
and I kept texting peoplelike- Hey, there's another
group, hope to see you there.
Because they would be thesame co workers that I'd
pull aside and just like,hey, what's going on?
Do you need assistancewith any of this stuff?
Cause I knew how that was whenI was a first time director.

(16:28):
And I was just like, ohman, we didn't have an
option to have a cohortlike this, or even, support
groups that we do have now.
So, I think we've definitelyhad to go through the process
and, figure out, what'snot working to have things
come into fruition.
So I think that's beenhelpful on my end.
Yes.
Yes, there's, Kendrick, thankyou for bringing that up, and

(16:51):
even Jason for your lens, Iwas thinking there is this,
there is a reality, especiallywhen providing services to
human, that's not the rightword, but social service, like
service oriented organizationscome with a little bit more
that they're navigating.

(17:12):
More on their plates.
It just seems to be more,and it is really hard
to get organizations tothink about doing anything
beyond once a month.
But then there's this reality.
If it's not once a month,it's people, it's just really
hard to hold on to that.
It's so hard to hold onto the information and

(17:33):
to keep that consistencygoing and to build upon.
And anything lesser than thatfeels like a lot for people.
So as consultants, we're alwaystrying to figure out what we
can do in the time that we have.
And life is life.
And not everybody canshow up all the time.

(17:55):
And so that balance with usas consultants is, okay, not
everyone's going to be ableto be here all the time.
How can we keep this as anexperience that's helpful?
And it is a constant stateof flowing and showing up and
figuring out what the need is.
And what you two are shininga light on that I want to
make even brighter is, Ithink that sometimes when

(18:17):
people think about coaching,especially if it's centered
around something like a book,we might dismiss the importance
of there are real life thingsthat people are experiencing.
There were a couple times whereKendrick and I saw the room.
We saw the room, we saw thepeople in the room, and we
felt what was in the room.
And it made more sense to putthe book aside, and to be very

(18:41):
curious about what people neededin this space, and to help
people navigate whatever it wasthat they were experiencing.
Be it personal, be it whateverwas happening at work.
And I think the part that getsmissed is that doing that is
so important to being ableto do everything that we're
talking about in the book.
One of the most significantdanger zones for responding

(19:04):
out of biases is when we areactivated, when we're crisis
mode, our logical brains aren'treally working, there's fear,
like those are the thingsthat activate actions based on
biases more than anything else.
I just remember thinking acouple times when we put the
book all the way to the side, Ikept wondering, do people know
that this really is the work?

(19:27):
It's not goingthrough every page.
I kept wondering that.
And now that you're here, Jason,I kind of wonder, did you...
And don't say yesif you don't agree.
But did you have a sense thatputting the book to the side
wasn't really putting the bookto the side, it really was the
practical aspect of the work?

(19:47):
I, I want to say yes.
And I think the bookgave the structure.
You always have tohave that structure.
But it's like you said, thosemoments where you, like those
crisis moments where you'relike, your latest flip.
You revert back towhat you know and what
you're comfortable with.
And that might be some of thebiases that we grew up with
or, the biases that you'vegrown into in work culture.

(20:12):
But I do appreciate the bookbecause, like I said, it was
talking points and it wasalso a structure to give us.
But to have these conversationswhere it was just free
flowing, I think that'swhere it helped us real grow,
really grow and understandwhat the bigger picture is.
At least, at least for me.
And that's why a lot of thestuff I didn't come into this
mindset- Oh, I gotta figurethis out because it's for work.

(20:34):
It's no, I'm taking thisback to my personal life.
Because it's crazy tosee me in this place now
where my older cousinsare asking me for advice.
When I, when growing up,I was asking for them
when I needed the help.
My TAY age, that's when Ineeded the help the most.
And now it's like, now they havekids that are, it's crazy to see
my nephew and nieces going tocollege and now they're like,

(20:56):
hey, they're getting into this.
This is happening.
We're like, what are you?
I'm like, oh shoot, likethe table's not turned.
And applied, I appliedthis stuff to, what I
experienced in real life.
And I think that's whyit's bigger for me,
because it's not just work.
We can, you know, focus onwork all day, but it's...
Realizing that when workdoes come to an end at that

(21:17):
day, like, how can you applythis to your real life, too?
And how does thisbecome practice?
So it's not just, oh,it's work time, let's
put this book together.
It's like, how do we apply it toour life so this is meaningful
and valuable information?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I had a dejavu moment there.
Oh, what was it?
I knew I heard, it was so faint.

(21:38):
Yeah,
What was the moment?
No, like this, like literallythis, like this experience
that we're doing right now.
And like on a Friday.
Ironic that I can rememberthat it was a Friday.
But like this conversationus three and whatnot.
I didn't know if it wasus three in particular.
I definitely, youwere there, Charmaine.
So I was just like, oh,wow, this is that moment.
Then what happened?

(21:59):
Nothing is going betterthan a day after we finish.
Yeah.
Nothing to prove.
Kendrick had a...
Out of body experience.
Hey, I'm in a season right now.
I'm in a season.
Oh my gosh.
Jason, I'm so glad thatyou had a great experience.
And then in the spirit ofaccountability, thinking
back on your time with us,we would really like to know,

(22:22):
are there any things that wecould have done differently?
Any parts of that experiencethat we can learn from to be
better facilitators outsideof that space with you all?
Um...
No.
I mean, it's...
Like I said, I hada great experience.
The thing that I do enjoy too,now that I'm thinking about

(22:44):
it, is those times when youwould just check up on us to
see what the temperature was.
Whether we were in thiscohort or through a
separate email, just tosee how the group's doing.
And that's going back tobeing intentional, right?
Cause you didn'thave to do that.
You didn't have todo any of that stuff.
But you checked in on us.
Checked on our well being.
And I felt like that's,that was my experience.

(23:05):
Like this well being partthat we were continuing to,
continue to chip at and work on.
I don't know.
I had a great experience.
Not for me!
So, actually, along with that,what would you say was different
about this experience versusmaybe other either trainings

(23:26):
or cohort or whatever typeof experiences that supposed
to have a similar outcome?
I feel like going into thisexperience, I felt like
it was like I'm at home.
Where I can kick off my shoesand get comfortable, right?
And have these realconversations with you guys.
It didn't feel like atraining where we're, like,
looking at a presentationand all this other stuff.

(23:47):
We're just it wasconversations all day.
And that's something thatI, do have, outside of work.
And those are the thingsthat I appreciated.
And I felt like...
It had me at ease.
Like you said it, like mysupervisor wasn't in the
picture, the AED wasn'tin the picture, all the
like upper management,it was just us working on

(24:07):
like our everyday, biases.
Oh my gosh, I love that so much.
Kendrick, I kind of wonderfrom you, it just...
On the spot, thinking backon what we were doing, is
there anything that we would,from this experience, that we
would want to do differently?
I think actually to thatcontext, I think maybe something

(24:32):
that might be different for memight be, even if we like to
actually counterintuitive towhat Jason just said, but having
maybe a presentation or two, tohelp consolidate the information
that we're exploring.
Because I think to that degreethat helps people lean in
a little bit more and maybenot that we, I don't think

(24:54):
we necessarily did it, buteven having maybe, early on
we did that, but a connectingactivity a little bit more.
And even honing in a little bitmore about what people wanted
to get out the experience and intheir expectation to a degree.
not that it was.
And then maybe lastly,really honing in on what's

(25:15):
the practical application.
I think we explored that some,but like really making that
like, okay, today we wentover these particular things.
Now, what does this look like isa practical application, right?
And really havingthat accountability.
So that even if they didn'thave anything that they
felt you could at least talkabout how you applied it or

(25:37):
how you wish you could applyit or something like that.
I think those are just a fewof the tweaks that I think
for me might impact it alittle bit differently, maybe
even, and I'm just thinkingabout maybe engagement.
I know, because the otherpiece is- I'm very firm is
if everything's an emergency,nothing is emergency, right?
And the other pieceis recognizing...

(25:58):
I haven't heard that.
I'm sorry.
Can you send that to me later?
Everything'semergency, nothing is.
Because the other, and theother piece, going back
to what you were sayingabout this being a very
personal learning experience.
I always tell folks, yo,in the profession I 'cause
folks, be quick to- Hey,I'm who I am professionally.

(26:18):
I'm who I am personally.
If you hold grudges in yourpersonal life, nine times outta
10, you gonna hold grudgesin your professional life.
And they don't serve thesame dynamics in terms
of how the impact of it.
And yeah, when you do inpersonal life, you can
negate the person andnot engage with them.
But when you do it in aprofessional space, you're
impacting the whole systemof how things get done and

(26:39):
how people and community arenot able or able to be built.
Having, for me, it's reallyimportant to have that kind
of put out on the table fromthe jump and have folks really
think about what it means toshow up in this space with that
kind of dynamic being there.
You, said something that hasme thinking about something

(27:00):
that I struggle with.
I don't know if struggleis the right word.
I'm challenged to doa lot with clients.
Because, so I heard what youwere saying, Jason, about
being able to show up and justwhatever it was, and we flowed
and we had the book and itwasn't always extra structured.

(27:21):
And then Kendrick, you gotme thinking that one of the
changes that we can thinkabout is what is a way that
we can give a little nuggetsof education that serve as a
structure, which I really like.
And then it just makes methink about my challenge.
My challenge is.

(27:41):
One of the things thatLiving Unapologetically does
differently than maybe a commonDEI consulting agency is we
are less attached to trainingand teaching of information
in presentation style.
And more about sitting inprocess oriented spaces and

(28:05):
the messiness of the work.
It's very like fluid.
And I do this because it canfeel like this for people.
And we're challenged withholding people in that, building
their ability to stay in that.
And if we do too muchinformation presentation
of any nuggets, ittakes people out of it.

(28:25):
So that challenge is likebalancing the need for both.
Now, Jason, you are someone whoyou can jump just like Kendrick,
actually, both of you couldget dropped into a pot of all
the process flow and you justswim in it and you're fine.
And then you come out and you'relike, wow, that was a good swim.
Like you, you just do that.

(28:46):
Not everybody can.
So, well, I'm sorry.
That's how it
feels when you two come inand it just is what it is.
And
I'm
the
analogies.
I'll be, I can, but I'm alsothinking to myself while
I'm swimming, why are we?
This ain't, I needsomething else besides this.
And to be totally straight,that's what made me think

(29:06):
of it, because I knowfrom working with you, you
operate in great structure.
And as free flowing as I canbe at times, I recognize that
the ability to function veryopenly comes a lot of times from
having structure, especiallylike in a creative space.
It isn't the fact, I've noticedwhen you get people just free

(29:27):
for all, hey, or my students,you get people free for all and
it's like, hey, just pick whatyou want to do, you can make it
a presentation, you can writeabout it, you can do it, and
they just get stuck, becausethey don't know the confines.
And like, when you thinkabout how creativity shows
up when you have very limitedconfines in terms of what you
can do or the expectation.
And so then the creativitycomes because you've got

(29:48):
to figure out how to manageit, the space and whatnot.
So I think actually that'sone of the things I pulled
from you Charmaine in termsof to your point, not that
we have to have a wholebig 20 minute presentation.
But even if it's just, oneslide to be like, okay, focus.
Bam, and let's explore andlet the exploration begin
from this starting point.

(30:09):
And I think it's good to havelike these different viewpoints.
Because if we're all thinkingthe same thing, we would
not grow at all, right?
And maybe that comes frommy own experience where,
like I said, I hate school.
So it's,
whatever way we can get.
But at the same time, I'mopen to, what the group wants.

(30:30):
Yes, I hadn't noticed.
But as I'm looking at youtwo and listening, I'm
realizing you two have verysimilar approaches to spaces.
I, yeah, so that,that balance and.
It takes a whileto find a balance.
And it honestly changes pergroup, per session, because the
group changes and everybody'sneeds are so different.

(30:53):
I know that I, when you saidthe thing I'm firm on, I
want to use that for myself.
The thing I'm very firm on inthis category is, I'm willing
to give some information andsome structure, but not to
the degree to which it keepsus in a place of avoidance of
feeling the difficult stuff.

(31:13):
And there have been plentyof clients that, are pushed
to a point where it, they'revery, very uncomfortable.
And their preference andrequest is for more information.
As a consultant our push backgently as much as possible
is your request for a lot ofinformation is at the expense

(31:38):
of your ability to build acapacity to feel what this
work needs to feel like foryou to be able to do a change.
So that's always an interestingplace to be in as a consultant.
It's an interesting placeto be in asking people, do
you want to hold yourselfaccountable to the thing
you're saying you want to do?
Because this is the moment andthis is what it looks like.

(31:59):
And then also hearingthe feedback and
finding the balance.
Kendrick, I appreciate you.
It came from you to me.
Hey, maybe we want to add littlebits and pieces of structure.
That makes sense.
Willing to try itand see how it goes.
And also knowing that yoursuggestion is not to do
it at such a capacity thatwe're totally out of it.
But there's a normal part of theclient experience in DEI -land

(32:22):
where The default is, I wouldlike more information, please.
I need more informationin order to do different.
So actually, I want to go toyou on this, Charmaine, because
I know this is a part of howyou even approach the work.
And we know in the land ofDEI, and what I'm speaking
about is in the land of DEI,it'll be folks to come and say-

(32:42):
Hey, we need such and such.
And to your point, they wantinformation, but they don't
really want to address anything.
They don't really want toput forth the action and
the emotional investmentto really learn whatever
skillset to navigate theconversations when they come up.
And one of the things I applaudyou for is like that has been
a very real thing in terms ofwhen you approach organizations

(33:07):
or organizations approach you,from our conversations, it's,
hey, we're not coming in hereto share some information.
So, if you're not ready forthat level of engagement,
we're not the, we're notthe consultant for you.
And so, would you mind speakingon what that experience
is like in terms of evenapproaching the organization

(33:27):
and having that standpoint.
And even having to choosewhen or when not to engage
because they're not reallyup for it or based on what I
Yeah.
I felt like you were going toask me some question that was
going to cause me to reallyhave to think about the answer.
No, it's right
there.
I, it is.
No, I,

(33:47):
We can edit it out, right?
If anything.
No, like I, I'm just, how do I?
It's been a journey.
I remember when I started.
I felt that if an agencyreached out, that they
wanted a particular service.
And I learned veryquickly what that meant.

(34:08):
I learned that meantthat we were asked to
produce a lot of content.
And we were participatingin the performative
aspects of the work.
And that did not feel good.
That did not feel goodas someone who is really
wanting to make a change.
At that time, I engaged inas many conversations as I

(34:28):
could with current clientsabout what our focus was.
And at that time, a coupledecided that wasn't for
them and that's okay.
Cause that also meantthey weren't for us.
Participating in theperformative stuff as a
DEI consultant impactedme internally so much.

(34:49):
It was that thecost was too high.
At this point, we use, asbest as possible, our up
front conversations withvarious agencies are asking
very specific questions tounderstand what currently
exists, what the mindsetis, what the practices are.
I'm usually like, do youall acknowledge that white

(35:10):
supremacy culture is a thing?
Can I just, can we start there?
Do you know it's a thing?
How do you feel about it?
What are your conversations?
What are your staff telling youthat they're seeing and feeling?
I'm really trying to get asense of what's occurring.
And then sharing what ourapproach is as much as
possible, as much as possible.
And we have thisupfront open dialogue.

(35:33):
They can ask questions.
It's like a two way interviewbecause I certainly don't want
to halt you from doing any ofthe work that you're doing.
And we want to use our resourcesin places where people feel
like it, it's a fit for them.
It really goes well.
And sometimes itmakes for really hard,

(35:55):
awkward conversations.
It requires so much selfregulation before, during,
and after on my part.
And I'm not the only one havingthese convos, because Bola
had a lot of these convos too.
She's...
She's been the initialpoint of contact.
And then we both have toself-regulate with each other.
It is just been like areally interesting process.

(36:16):
But I think we're pretty clearnow on what it is that we're
trying to do in the world andwho it is we're trying to help.
And, you know, there's some,there's something for everybody.
There's somebody for everybody.
And it's okay ifwe're not a match.
It's absolutely okay.
Mm-hmm.
Jason, I really wanna nowlean into your expertise

(36:37):
as the recipient ofmany types of services.
And I'm really curious toknow, and you don't have to
give any specifics unlessyou want to, for leaders in
organizations, maybe evenfor DEI practitioners, what
are some things that, that wecan just have on our radars

(36:58):
in order to provide better,good services to middle
management or even to staff?
I think my biggest thing, my,one thing that I appreciate was
the experience that I had beforegetting into leadership, right?
It's like that playercoach experience, right?
The player, I'm abig NBA fan, right?

(37:19):
Lakers are my team.
The player has been playing inthe league for so long that they
understand what's been going on.
And the systems and, youknow, the playbooks and
all this stuff, right?
And then they become thiscoach that gets into this work.
So they know how topresent in a different
way through experience.
And if you don't have thatexperience coming from like
your green and coming from a,a different field, whatever

(37:42):
the case is, and you haven'tbeen in that culture for so
long, maybe it's one of thosemoments where you spend a
day in a certain position.
So that you can gain someof these experiences.
Then now you can lead and haveyour staff and actually ask-
Hey, if I don't know about it,about certain things, I don't
know how I can help you andsay, I just want to let you

(38:05):
know, my door is always open.
If you need to talkabout certain things.
If things aren't working,let's have that conversation.
Because I feel like once youcan get input from your staff,
you can also get buy in,and that helps with how you
switch and change the culture.
Because if your staff's notbought in, you're gonna lead a

(38:26):
team that doesn't follow, right?
You just have thattitle position.
And I think a lot of the times,too, when I'm introducing myself
to maybe community partners, Idon't even say like my title.
I cringe when I say mytitle because I don't
want people to be heldon this whole title role.
It's you got to be thatleader without that title.
And I think that's onething that our, you know,

(38:48):
just management in general.
You have to look at, like, howdo we become a better leader?
And then the title comesafterwards, or it comes
with, the position.
But, I think just havingthat experience and humbling
yourself, is a key to, switchup a lot of these cultures.
And asking for help, right?
You're talking about the clientsthat might not be ready or
are not the clients for you.

(39:09):
Maybe they're not the clientsat that time because they're not
ready to change things, to open,to see a different perspective,
but I feel like that'swhat you do as consultants.
You're stuck in this culturefor like an organization
maybe that's been there for40 years and like, no, I think
we, they're asking you forhelp, so why are they pushing
back on- We don't need theirhelp, then, blah, blah, blah.
It's like, why,why'd you reach out?

(39:30):
They're someone on the outsidelooking in, and maybe you
listen to that so that you canget a different perspective
of what you've been talkingabout these last 40 years.
Yes, yes, Kendrick, I wonderfrom you, any, oh gosh, I had
the question and I just lost it.
Oh, so Jason, you got mymind going like in a bunch of

(39:54):
different directions, whichit does all of the time.
It made me start thinking aboutwhat are the things, this is
a question for you Kendrick,what are the things that you'll
see in like coaching clientsor even thinking about this
experience we have with Jason.
What are the things thatindicate there's this readiness,

(40:16):
willingness to engage in thedeeper versus people who show up
and there isn't that readiness.
What does thatdifference look like?
Alright.
So I'm gonna try to focushere, cause the other
piece that happened...
The spark in this piece waswhen we're working with staff

(40:37):
and how important it is forthe leadership to really be
invested in the work for itto actually- cause a lot of
times the other piece of it iswe'll work with the staff and
then there'll be like, well,we need to have our leadership
in here too, because they'dbe the ones doing half of the,
doing half of the stuff to us.
Even though we're supposed tobe trying to learn how to do
this for the community and thefamilies that we work with.

(40:58):
But we come in and they're notvery, culturally responsive
to how they treat us, or eventrauma informed for that matter.
But to your question,Charmaine, I think, there's,
and in those who really allowthemselves to go through the
journey in the struggle of it.
In terms of doing the selfreflection and really being

(41:20):
curious about how do theytry this on for themselves?
For me, it's like, I wantto see the struggle to this,
you know what I'm saying?
Or at least being ableto acknowledge where does
the application look likeand be able to hear that.
This is how I reflectedin this space.
This is what came up for me, andthis is what I'm thinking about
doing moving forward based onthis new insight that I have.

(41:44):
And so it's like when we havethose moments when we open it
up and just yeah, everything'spretty okay for me, and I'm
like, yeah, it is though?
So it's nah, it's I can tellby your response that the level
of reflection isn't there.
if I've been working andI'm asking questions, this
is, and this is two sided.

(42:05):
I think I've had experienceonce where I engaged with a,
a person and I've been askingthe same questions, because I
have multiple sessions, right?
And this is justinitial exploratory.
And they weren't able togive me, in terms of how
they reflected on it,it wasn't about them.

(42:26):
It was about other people.
I was just thinking that.
I'm sorry, I keep going.
And that capacity to notreally own the experience
for yourself, is not going toallow you to really get what
you need to get out of it.
Because it's really gonna, inthis space we're all coming
from very different perspectivesand we're thinking about our
personal identities and personalcultures, and all these things.

(42:47):
And that impacts how weexperience the world.
And if you can't acknowledgethat, and not to say you need
to give in to a certain, but youhave to be able to acknowledge
the different perspectives.
I think if you can't,that's really going to make
it challenging for you toreally lean into this space.
Because it's such a great pieceof the dynamic of, I might not
even believe what you said.

(43:07):
But I need to be able to seeand understand why you're
coming from that perspectivebased on your experiences.
So that as we're trying towork through it I have a better
understanding of who you arehow you and why you showing up
the way you are, as the same asI'm understanding this about me.
So that I'm aware that, oh, ifI'm having to deal with this
person, I have some biases,I have some things that are

(43:28):
going to come up automaticallybased on my lived experiences.
And I can't stop that ifI just see that as the way
things are and not as owningit as my own experience and
recognizing that other people'sexperiences are different.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
Sorry.
I just blurted andinterrupted you.
I just was sitting herelistening and then you said

(43:49):
what I was thinking and Ijust agree wholeheartedly.
There are things that we seethat indicate the readiness.
And Jason, I appreciate youeven- you're calling me to
reframe how I say things and Ireally like the term readiness.
Are people ready?

(44:09):
Even in thinking maybe therelationship between us and
client is about readiness.
And that doesn't mean ithas to always be that way.
It can change.
Thank you for that.
I think the last thingthat I'm really curious
about from you, Jason...
Actually, Charmaine, before you
do
that, I was actually curiousfor you in terms of that same

(44:30):
question that you asked mein terms of what do you see?
Of recognizing is
What was that?
Oh my gosh.
it's like that, it's likethat UNO card where it says
flip and then you rotate.
And actually, hold on a second.

(44:53):
And the way he does it too,he sits back, he goes...
actually, go,
he said, gotcha.
Let me get this offthis, deck real quick.
Okay, the question was, oh,what are the things I see?
So you talked about it.
I'll just expand a little bitmore because, one of the things,

(45:14):
and I use this terminology whenpeople say a lot of things, but
they're not saying anything.
And what that means is it isvery clear to me when people
have learned what to say, theyjust have learned the language.
There's a feeling that comeswith the language that has not
caught up to the words though.

(45:36):
I can see it and I can feel it.
And if it almostfeels performative.
And that is one of the pitfallsof focusing too much on learning
and not engaging and puttingit into your body to feel it.
So that's one of the things.
And when I say that, I'veliterally heard people
say really great stuff.

(45:58):
I mean, it's great information.
They've learned to useintersectionality well, and
maybe give some examples.
And with that comesthe part that you were
talking about, Kendrick.
It's the talking from adistance about things.
So if it, when asked a directquestion about yourself or

(46:19):
for you to talk about whata feeling is, which is still
about yourself, the responseis usually what you might think
or feel about a thing overthere, what you've seen about
people or examples over there.
And it does not, it takesaway from the focus on you.
So if I'm asking veryexplicitly- Hey, you, your

(46:42):
task for last week, you saidyou really wanted to challenge
yourself and ask them likepretty difficult questions
of your staff because youwanted to hear this from
them, blah, blah, blah.
How'd it go?
And the responseis, it went okay.
When I asked these typesof questions and we just-
we totally exit what I said.
I ask these types of questions.
People really like to hear thethings and blah, blah, blah.
People like to hear thespace and people love, it's

(47:05):
all about other people.
When my question was, what wasit like for you to do that?
What did you experience?
What?
So I'll go back.
I usually go back andthere's still an exit.
And when someone exits acouple times it indicates to
me that there's a struggle,but not always not ready yet.

(47:25):
So I will take the time to say,Hey, I've noticed that when I
ask you these questions aboutyou, your feelings, this moment,
your response is going outward.
And we're talkingabout other people.
Have you noticed that?
Yes or no.
Would you want thatto be different?
Because if we can focus on youand your experience, it's going

(47:45):
to help you grow in the way thatyou're saying you want to grow.
Is this okay?
Sometimes people say yes,some people say well, uh, and
there's a struggle, but you atleast, I feel responsible for
pointing out what I'm seeing.
More often than not peopleallow that to happen.
It's only been likeonce or twice where it

(48:06):
just wasn't happening.
It wasn't the thing.
But that's what I see.
That's actually the bulkof what I do with people.
Gotcha.
You said, I know I'll be there.
Yeah,
I'll be there.
Thanks for running that back.
I think this question can befor anybody and it's really
just, what are the things thatpeople leading DEI work or

(48:28):
people wanting to be responsiblefor culture change- I think
that's better what it is.
What are the thingsthat we see that really
help create that safety?
And maybe are there thingsthat we see that don't?
And if we can be behaviorspecific I think that can help.
So instead of yeah, makeeverybody feel good.

(48:51):
I mean behavior specific.
What is?
What is that person doingto make people feel good?
So I, yeah, just wrapping uplike that feels right to me.
Gotcha.
Jason's thinking.
I'm thinking.
Okay.
Kendrick.
I got a
few
Kendrick's my answers!

(49:13):
He leans all theway into the camera.
But did you die?
But did you not...
So I think off the top,behavior specific leadership
needs to role model.
And leadership needs torole model in terms of,
accountability, vulnerability.
When things come up, it isnot a strictly punitive space.

(49:38):
And it's a placethat can be explored.
And it's a, let'shear all sides.
It's a, let's hear thedynamic because as much
as you might want to railagainst whatever dynamic
and, this is racist, this issexist and yada, yada, yada.
There's a lot that goes intothese spaces in terms of how we
even sit with these and on somelevel to be able to communicate.

(49:59):
And which means leadershipcan't be afraid to have
the conversation, toexplore or whatnot.
Or really hear folks out,and recognize if that's
a reflection of what thepeople are experiencing
in your organization, youneed to listen to that.
And so, you know, beingable to just kind of show

(50:19):
up in that way, which meanson some level they have to
be doing their own work.
They have to be, it's amazingto your point you made earlier,
Charmaine, the education.
There's tons of books out there,y'all, you can read, they got
videos, they got documentaries,you got podcasts, like it's
tons of things, if you justreally want the information.
But you have to want it foryourself and be willing to

(50:39):
try that on for yourself,to really explore it.
Which is, I'll callit out like this.
I can tell when I'm dealingwith someone who is, let's
say, about this work, interms of really exploring.
In particular, I'm callingout white people and
it's my Caucasianites.
In terms of if I'm dealingwith somebody who is, has
really done some level, theconversation is very different.

(51:01):
The willingness to exploreand reflect on their
experiences is very differentfrom somebody who has not.
So when we get into, and we'retalking about, the experiences
and they're feeling some typeof way- which also lets me
know how much work have youdone to read up on this to
understand these words thatwe're using, the sentiments,

(51:21):
the type of examples.
All that goes into whenwe talk about what does
it look like, right?
If, I think, when peopleare doing this, they're
doing it on some level.
You might have, starteddoing it because of your
work or whatever experience.
But there's a personalizationthat comes along with it.
Because, to Jason's pointthat he's been saying
all day, you take this toother areas of your life.

(51:44):
And then, so that's the otherpiece of how it comes together.
I wanna add to that, I likedhow you said role model.
I think that's likethe biggest thing.
When you model it.
Like for me, it's, if I knowI gotta stay a little bit so
that, we're working on thisone thing, I'm showing up.
And I think that's anotherthing we want to point out.
It's how do you show upfor your staff, for this

(52:07):
culture that you want?
I remembered, I loveyour work, Caucasianites.
Oh,
Well, nine, so nineyears ago, right?
Nine years ago, when I got intothis, work social services and
everything, I stepped into aworkplace where it was a lot
of, white folks and white women.
And I was one of the few,male and male of color.

(52:31):
Fast forward, anothercoworker, we had this, I
forgot what it was, but wewere sitting down with, I think
it was, one of, leadership.
And, one of our coworkerspointed out, and I think this
is like during the time where Ijust got into leadership, right?
Pointed out and pointedto me, and I'm like,
I love seeing this.
Seeing a male in leadershipand, in the social

(52:51):
services work and of color.
And that, really, oh,shoot, I didn't see it.
I was just gratefulfor the, opportunity.
But I really stuck with that.
It's like giving thoseopportunities where, especially
when you're serving population,you want to have people in
leadership that look like thepopulation you're serving.
But on, on the other endtoo, because we can say

(53:11):
oh, we need more uppermanagement to look like us.
But at the same time, youalso got to realize some
of us don't even want to bein those positions as well.
And I feel like that'sokay, but there's different
ways to advocate for it.
You know, like that'ssomething for, for me, it's
like, I've talked to my boss.
I'm like, I'm good where I'm at.
I like this level where I'm at.
Not too close to the, politicalside and not too far away from

(53:34):
the, the groundwork with whichwe can lead these cultures.
And then it goes down to,what does our staff look like?
How do we, provide theseservices to the youth that,
you know, look like our staff?
Um, and I think it givesdifferent perspectives and
different life experienceswhen you have room filled
with, different backgrounds.

(53:56):
But it's how do you model that?
How do you havethese conversations?
And not have theseconversations where you're
like, they're not doing this.
They're not- it'sno, what can we do?
what can we do?
What we got to stop pointingthese, like our fingers
at what's not happening.
It's like, all right, whatcan we do in this moment?
Like it doesn't help to justpoint fingers out all day and
then, and be that, be that,staff member or, in my position,

(54:18):
just- this is not happening.
Forget about this, that.
It's what can Ido in the moment?
how can I model this?
How can I continue to support?
What can I, you know, whatare some opportunities for?
If it's not me, howdo I identify a person
that can push this.
So...
All I'm going to do isecho what you two are
saying around the modeling.

(54:38):
It's, it is one of the mostsignificant things that I try
to do and is very importantto me and that I look for.
And I know that is very powerfulin the spaces, just in the
spaces that I've been in.
As an employee, as afacilitator, as a leader,
as a consultant, people arelooking for the modeling.

(55:01):
Yeah, I have a coach thattold me- she said, you're
modeling what's possible.
And oh my goodness,I just stuck with me.
Like I want to modelwhat's possible.
I want to encourage otherpeople to model what's
possible and the modelingalso comes with- I don't
know, I'm just trying stuff.
I might go well, might not.
I'm just trying itout to figure it out.
But, but
that feels so important.

(55:23):
I was, to that point, causeeven I, even like with
staff working with families.
Oftentimes, we're the firstpeople that are showing what a
healthy relationship looks like.
What maybe healthycommunication looks like.
So that modeling is very big.
But also in that modelingpiece, recognize that,

(55:43):
to your point, youmight not get it right.
And so what does it meanfor a leader to come
back and say, Hey, youknow what, we tried this.
This was the directionwe're hoping to go.
It didn't quite work out.
But I take aim for that.
And, we want to explorethis in a different way.
So I think that piece andknowing that you can do it,
like making mistakes is goingto be a part of this space.

(56:05):
And so leaning into that asopposed to running from it.
Yes.
That makes so much sense.
All right, well look, I wantto thank you first, Jason,
for sharing the space withus and allowing us to explore
all of your experience withus and just, you were so

(56:27):
honest and reflective onthe things that went well,
and maybe there weren't any
terrible things that happened,but there were a lot of things
that you shared that I knowfor me that have me thinking
differently and what impactchanges that I will make.
And I'm certain that's thecase for you, Kendrick, too.
And Kendrick, thank youfor being here and being

(56:48):
my co facilitator of thecoaching experience and
always sharing your wisdom.
I don't know if y'all want tosay anything before we wrap up.
Well, now that I think of it,I think one cool thing that
would, I know you can't dothis for every client, right?
But it would have beencool to have a session in
person with, the group.
That would have been nice.

(57:09):
But other than that, like Isaid, my experience was great.
yes,
No, I think, I'm happyyou are doing these.
I think these are some verymuch needed conversations
that need to happen.
And I'm excited for theseto be out there and the
benefits of folks beingable to view these and,
explore them for themselves.

(57:33):
Jason, if people want toget in touch with you, what
is the best way to do that?
Oh, shoot.
So I actually have my ownpodcast with a co host, um, Art.
Art and Brian.
It's a little bit more freeflowing, not suitable for work.
Where we touch on, comedy,community, and culture.
where we're creatingcommunity connections
through casual conversations.

(57:53):
The Brew Inn Podcast,
I was like, sowhat is it called?
the the Brew Inn Podcast,B R E W I N N, and then
there's a linktree to all ofthe, you know, the YouTube,
audio, all of that stuff,you can find it there.
Oh, perfect.
I'll put it in the description.
And Kendrick, I don'tknow, is your website
up and running already?

(58:14):
How do people reach you?
Hopefully, maybe by the timeyou get this up, it'll be
up, But just KendrickDial.
com and it'll have allmy worlds in there.
So from this side of mentalhealth and DEI to music and
art and all that good stuff.
So you'll be able tosee everything I do.
So I'm excited forthat to launch too.
I'm excited too.

(58:34):
That rang nice- KendrickDial.
com.
All right, y'all.
look, for people watchingthis episode, please, please,
please, like, share, subscribe.
Share with people in yournetwork, have discussions with
your colleagues, supervisors,spread the word, and hopefully
do some more learning from this.
If you want to get in touch withme, you can visit my website

(58:54):
at livingunapologetically.
com.
There are lots of things onthere, different ways to contact
me, social media handles,more episodes, and you will
also have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
That's it.
We are wrapping up now.
I hope to be able toconnect with you soon

(59:16):
and until then, bye.