July 9, 2024 • 58 mins
In this episode, I talk with Donovan Ackley III about people and communities with lower representation in professional settings and how that shows up in DEI work. Donovan shares his personal journey, highlighting how his experiences have shaped his understanding of self in workplaces and life in general. The discussion hones in on the importance of lived experiences and genuine relationships in DEI, while also addressing common fears and the challenges of being performative. This episode provides invaluable insights for anyone looking to deepen their understanding and practice of DEI in their professional and personal lives.
Our Guest
Donovan Ackley III, Ph.D. is a full-time researcher with San Diego State University Research Foundation. An educator and Peer Support Specialist with 30+ years experience in grassroots community organizing and non-profit work, he helped launch the national peer support suicide prevention nonprofit Trans Lifeline with and for trans, nonbinary, gender-nonconforming, and intersex people. Donovan applies his Ph.D. in philosophy of religion and his certifications as a Drug and Alcohol Counselor and Peer Support Specialist to LGBTQI+ wellness and recovery from religious trauma, especially at intersections of religion and gender. As a religious studies professor, he taught in the UC system and private universities in world religions, American religions, theology, church history, and trauma-informed yoga; has written and co-authored several books including the two-volume Queer Liberation Theology and Praxis, and appeared as a contributing scholar in the 2019 documentary film Intersex and Faith.
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To get in touch with Donovan Ackley III, you can contact him here:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donovan-ackley-iii-ph-d
- Academia Author Pagehttps://sdsu.academia.edu/DonovanAckleyIII
- Amazon Author Pagehttps://www.amazon.com/Donovan-Ackley-III/e/B089TZQMJM%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
- “Infinite and Unbounded Grace - Donovan Ackley III” (2021) Van Ness Creativehttps://vimeo.com/599710384
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Setting the Stage
01:21 Guest Donovan Ackley III
07:02 Erasure in DEI
07:49 Real-World Impacts and Personal Reflections
11:03 Identities and Trauma
15:23 Challenges in Professional Settings
23:38 The Fear of Not Knowing
30:44 Overcoming the Fear
37:00 Challenges of DEI Work
45:32 Building Genuine Relationships
48:18 Humility and Learning
51:56 Embracing Mistakes and Learning from Them
56:59 Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I used to think, so I need toshow everybody that I earned
(00:02):
these credentials and theywere right to hire me for
these credentials because, andthat was super off putting.
Believe me, I did not walkin the door with my PhD
on the first day and, I'mhumble and I'm here to learn.
No, no, no, no.
I just kept making thatmistake, running like full
speed into the same brick wall.
(00:23):
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talking aboutthe erasure of people and
communities, in DEI work whenthey have a lower representation
in professional settings.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, weare unpacking real life
scenarios and issues thatcome up in our interactions
in professional settings orin areas where we feel like
(00:45):
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in ourinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, opinions, things
that are shared in today'sconversation, those are my own
and not as a representativeof any of the agencies that I
work for or am contracted by.
(01:21):
Donovan Ackley III, I am so gladto be sharing space with you.
And I have had you on myradar for quite some time.
You are someone that no matterwhat we are doing, what we're
talking about, even if it seemslike a small little check in, I
am learning something from you.
I am certain that people who arelistening and watching are going
(01:42):
to learn something from you too.
We met probably a- I don't know,maybe a couple ish years ago?
We were working at theAcademy for Professional
Excellence together.
And wherever you were, whatevermeeting it was, you brought
a lens that required mepersonally and other people to
think about what was happeningand why it was happening
(02:03):
and where it came from.
Had me always looking atthings I hadn't necessarily
saw or from the lens that wasvery helpful to see it from.
So I found you as somebodywho's an incredible
source of information.
I don't even know if youknow this, but you have
impacted my development.
You are someone that Ilook to even on LinkedIn.
(02:24):
I trust you as aresource and an expert.
So thank you for being here.
I'm excited.
Thank you Charmaine.
Yes.
if you don't mind, you canshare anything about yourself.
Whatever you'd wantpeople to know before we
get into today's topic.
yeah.
Ok.
First and foremost,I'm a parent.
(02:45):
That's somethingthat keeps me going.
And aside from that,
my earliest professionaltraining and work was, I was
ordained as a minister whenI was only 18 years old.
That's, I'm not in thatprofession anymore for a
variety of different reasons,and that may, that may become
(03:08):
part of our conversation.
I don't know.
But, but in any case, I'mbringing it up because
that sort of shaped me.
I've been a spiritualseeker my whole life.
And, I spent many yearsas a religious, religious
studies professor.
I went into that asa scholarly endeavor.
So my PhD is in religionand I was the chair of a
department of religion.
And, it just, I spent severaldecades, working in that field.
(03:33):
So that's a sensibility Ibring with me to the way that
I am, even though I work in thebehavioral health world now.
And of course I respectthat not everybody shares
a sort of, spiritual orreligious perspective.
I guess that sort of spiritualseeking kind of openness
and, the desire to connectthe dots and be in harmony
(03:55):
with others and be in balanceand, be connected to things
that are greater than myself,being connected with people
in compassionate ways.
Those things are all,go deep into who I am.
And so my work life seemsscattered, I would guess,
since I left that worldabout ten years ago.
(04:16):
But, the other thing is thatI'm a trauma survivor, and now
that includes religious trauma.
So part of my own wellnessjourney has been, you
know, It's kind ofblends both those things.
Be of service to other peopleand use my lived experience.
Understanding that it'sreally about my own healing.
I have to do my owninner work every day.
(04:37):
And at the same time, how otherpeople can be a part of that.
And how, sharing, some of thosehardest things that I go through
or have been through thatmaybe that those can be ways
to build community with otherpeople and help, help other.
I want to say that in a notcondescending way, so I'm not
trying to say, Oh, I'm out.
I'm here to help other people.
I want to be helpful anduseful to other people, and
(05:01):
I understand my own healingis interconnected with that.
So it's not a, you know, atop down sort of a thing.
It's a, we're all in thistogether type of thing.
A peer support mentalityis very important to me.
That's, I do have trainingin that as well, even
though I also have a PhD.
I do probably come intomy work more from a peer
support understandingthan from a, I have a PhD
(05:24):
kind of understanding.
I found that to be as helpful,even though, now I'm working
as a research specialist,but I'm also working at
building community basedinterventions in that research.
So I get to draw from both.
When it comes to publishingfindings, it's helpful that
I have a PhD, but when itcomes to actually doing the
work in community, that'sthe PhD does not help at all.
(05:47):
It's the lived experiencethat's helpful.
Yeah, so I don't know.
That was a very longintroduction, I guess
other things will comeup as they're relevant.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
And even in your, I can reada bio, I can see a resume,
but even in hearing youdescribe your journey and
what you're grounded in, Ihadn't heard that before.
(06:08):
And I, it's so interestingand I can see what you still
have in you that you lean onin your approach with people.
I could totally see that.
That makes so much sense.
And it's fascinating.
You, I do feel like in yourexperience as part of- What
I want to say is part of whatmakes you somebody who reaches
(06:31):
people is you have this way of,you use your experience and then
you tie it with other people's.
It's very communal,but in a safe way.
And then you offer it.
And like, did you knowthese things here?
Why don't you look at this?
But it's full of, it's like fromyour heart and your own reality.
(06:51):
It's really cool.
So thank you for doing that.
I just had all of theserealizations when you
were talking, and I verymuch connected with that.
So
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right.
So let's get startedon this topic.
I like to start every episodeby being very clear about what
we mean when we say things.
(07:11):
And when we talk about erasureof people and communities,
I think that while it mightseem self explanatory to ask,
like, why is it importantto be talking about this?
I don't think, if I ask peoplethis question, if I ask 10, 20
people this question, I thinkI'd get very different answers.
And I honestly think Imight get people uncertain
(07:31):
of how to respond.
Because it's a thing that we sayis important, but I don't think
we talk about the layers of it.
So can we start there?
Like, why is it importantto be talking about
these people, community,their smaller portions
of professional settings?
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I can't help but noticewhat's going on in the
(07:52):
world right now as you'reasking me that question.
And I just recently have beenseeing a lot of sharing from
Jewish communities in Americaabout what a tiny percentage
they are of the population, yethow disproportionately they're
represented in hate crimes.
It's also Trans AwarenessWeek, Transgender Day of
(08:14):
Remembrance, which is aninternational, I don't want to
say celebration, but it's aninternational day of remembrance
for trans people that havebeen murdered in hate crimes.
So that's, Trans Awareness Weekand Trans Day of Remembrance
is, they line up together.
I'm thinking of that too, justthat, that's the first thing
that pops to my mind is thatsometimes a very tiny community,
(08:36):
is disproportionately attacked,and lives are at stake.
And it's in a way that evenif we're not a member of
that community, or evenif we don't have anyone we
love who's a member of thatcommunity, maybe we don't
personally know anyone in thatcommunity, it's still when
we think of what's happeningto Jewish people right now.
And I know this complex I'm nottrying to single out one group
(08:58):
or pit one against the other.
I don't mean it that way at all.
I'm just sayingthat has an impact.
When a member of our world ora member of our, our country.
Um, I'm saying itwrong, a member of- but
you know what I mean?
The violence in theworld impacts us all.
Like it's a heavy weightwe're all carrying that
(09:19):
this is happening again.
People are being targeted.
And that feeling of, Idon't know what to do.
I'm afraid, all of it.
It just, it's a heavyweight for everybody.
So I think it does affecteverybody, even if we don't feel
like we're personally affected.
Bearing witness to it is hard.
Not knowing what to do, notknowing how to intervene.
And that certainly affectsworkplaces, having that
(09:42):
running in the backgroundwhile you're trying to
go through your workday.
And then of course, if thereis somebody in your workplace
that you don't know is a memberof those communities or maybe
is openly a member of thosecommunities and you don't
know how to be an ally or...
hmm.
That may not be the way wetalked about it before, but,
(10:03):
that's just what's coming upfor me with what's going on in
the world right this minute.
Hmm.
That makes so much sense.
And my mind immediately jumpedto these different ideas.
I don't know why my mind jumpedthere- to these different
ideas of what could be donein organizations, but it
skipped over several steps.
So I think I'm going toput a pin in that for
a second and stay here.
(10:24):
And one of a couple of thethings that you were talking
about is people associatethese conversations with
a political correctness.
And while what's happeningin society can be very
political for people.
There's also an over associationwith it's just political.
There's this human aspectthat you're talking
about, the connectedness.
(10:45):
And then that responding inthese situations, it's not
a place to be performative.
And I wanted to know if youcould speak a little bit
more on those because yourinsight, like your lens to
that was really helpful for me.
Well, I'm just feeling alot about that right now,
(11:07):
like I said to your lastquestion, so I'm not sure how
clear I'm going to be, but,again, going back to these
are life and death matters.
They're not political idio-.
I understand some peoplegrandstand and soapbox
about these things.
At the same time, it's veryvivid in presence to me right
now, again, with what's goingon in the world, that these
(11:28):
are literally, people aredying and that feeling of,
I want to know how to be ofsupport, but I don't know
how to support this communitywithout offending that
community, even thoughthere are people I love
in both communities.
I'll say this, just tobe more respectful and
stay in my own lane.
I'll keep it to trans andintersex issues because
(11:50):
that's, I'm in bothof those communities.
So, no, how do I navigatethat with, as I said before,
I'm a person that came out ofa very religious background.
That in itself, even justsaying that, that's why I
don't usually lead with that,because, well, I don't want
to offend my atheist friends.
I don't want to, not aboutbeing politically correct, but I
(12:10):
know, people have deep religioustrauma around this stuff.
People have deep trauma aroundmisogyny, and patriarchy,
and who knows what else is intheir background that, as a
trans or intersex person, Iwant to be mindful that your
feelings about sex and gendermight have deep roots in trauma
that you've lived through.
(12:31):
It's not just a political issue.
And I even in one of theseminority groups, or a
couple of these minoritygroups, How can I say it?
I'm targeted with discriminationand people I love in my
communities are targetedwith even more discrimination
than I experience.
And I want to dosomething about that.
(12:52):
At the same time, I want tonavigate that in ways that
we can hear each other, thatwe can, I don't know if I'm
addressing your question or not.
So often it seems likethese things are discussed
in very abstract ways
when I know people that are.
life or death situationsor have died by suicide or,
(13:14):
it's not ideological alone.
In fact, the ideological issuesto me are sort of a distraction
from the real life human livingin a body that's complicated.
How do I navigate that?
How do I navigate that peaceablywith the people in my life?
Recognizing that it maybe hard for them too, and.
(13:36):
fInding ways to be alive inthis body I was born into
in ways that, again, thatjust allow me and other
people to live in harmony.
We may have some things we'vegot to work through, including
conflict, and it may bedifficult and uncomfortable.
Still, how can we live togetherharmoniously, without harming
each other, without being drivento hate crimes out of fear or
(14:00):
however these things happen?
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
You had asked if you'reanswering my question, and my
first thought was, what if wejust have this conversation
in whatever we talk about.
It's important- to me it'simportant that we model what
these conversations look like.
And while there can be somediscussion about topics like
(14:24):
this, especially in professionalsettings, we don't get into
them deep enough to reallyhave consistent practice
with each other, knowinghow to do all of the- you
said the ideological stuff.
And then there'sthe practice piece.
There's a lot that's, notnavigated fully yet for
us to really know how todo it all, and I don't
think we have to do it all.
(14:45):
You're, to me, what you'reliving out right now, even in
your response, is in this placethat's very practical, human.
This is what's happening everyday, and this is why it's
important in people's lives.
And, there's this conceptthat people are talking about,
and this is actually why wecan't stay in this ideological
theory place of, yes, thisis an important issue.
(15:07):
We should do something aboutit without adding the elements
that you're bringing in, becausethat's the most important part.
If you're going to do somethingabout the ideas and the
theories that we're talkingabout, we have to make room
for stuff that you're sharing.
And one of the other thingsthat you were talking about
was that people have thesethings going on in their own
(15:30):
lives, and then people go intovarious professional settings
and they are still themselves.
The world is still the world.
We're still dealing with things.
I think what canbe interesting...
and you really put this onmy radar in a different way.
You really, really did.
And I don't know howI'm going to be able
to capture this either.
So I'm going to lean intowhat I just told you for
(15:51):
myself, but it was like,
There is an experiencethat people are having
that we only know fromthat ideological place.
We know something's important.
We know people are experiencingsomething, but we really
don't know any, a lot ofpeople don't know anything
about the experiences ofpeople that are smaller
portions of a demographic.
(16:14):
And because we are so removedfrom what that experience is,
we don't really, we're notgrasping even like the surface
level of what that means for thepeople that we're working with.
We miss the things that wetalk about casually because
we just don't understand it.
We miss the moments thatare important in our
interactions with each other.
(16:34):
I don't remember exactlywhat you told me.
I just remember thinking tomyself, while I understand
that there are lots of partsof people's identities, and
I can value that till the endof time, there is an impact
of me not knowing anythingabout someone's life, like
not even research wise.
Like I don't know anythingabout it until someone
(16:55):
says something to me.
I miss, I could unintentionallydo harm, miss something,
have points of disconnection.
And then there's experienceof people that are portions
of the smaller populationthat are just sitting with
whatever they're sitting withat work, experiencing more
on top of because there'sall these interactions
(17:16):
and norms that are okay
that further, I keep doing this.
I keep thinking about that'sfurther pushing down the
experiences of people wedon't know anything about.
And the extra layer is,you would say, some people,
we don't even know partsof people's identities.
If we don't know it, oftentimesit's not safe to say it.
(17:38):
There's so much there.
I don't even knowwhere to go with that.
I'm not sure where togo with that either.
One of things you hadasked about before was
being performative.
And I was thinking about thatwhile you were sharing just
now, and the difference betweenbeing performative and just
all of what you just shared,and the way you shared it.
(17:59):
That came from a very, youcame across very sincere.
I want to learn, I want todo better, I recognize that I
don't know what I don't know.
And that's what kept comingup for me is this sort of
genuinely wanting to makespace for people because none
of us know, we don't know.
I'm white all day long.
There's nothing I canfreaking do about that.
(18:21):
It bugs me sometimes, butI have, I have to walk
through this world and justbe aware that, okay, in
this meat bag that I livein, I come across some kind
of certain way to people,whether I want to or not.
And as long as I'm mindful ofthat, I might be able to be
(18:42):
told, if I'm listening and beingmindful and being the kind of
person that's trustworthy andpresent, that somebody might be
willing to share with me, Ouch,you just stepped on my toes.
I'm very thankful that I've hadso many colleagues and friends
and mentors in my life who'vehad those conversations with me.
(19:02):
And they don't, sinceI've had so many of those
conversations, they don'tneed to go on and on about it.
I don't have to take a bunchof their emotional labor.
Usually, a singlesentence is enough to
correct me at this point.
But I'm so gratefulbecause I'm like, nobody
owes me that, you know?
And so now I get to be, becauseI'm intersex and I'm trans, I
get to experience that from adifferent angle of being aware
(19:23):
that there's a lot of peoplein the world that just like you
said, 98 percent of the peoplein the world or more don't
have an intersex condition, 99.
7 percent of the people inthe world are not trans.
So that's a lot of people thatdon't have experience with
this and I, even those of usthat do have experience with it
because there's so few of us,I hear that in trans community
(19:45):
and intersex community, Ihear that over and over again.
It's like, I didn't knowanother person who was trans.
I didn't know anotherperson who was intersex
until I was, X years old.
And I had never heard of it.
My doctors had never heardof it, and so we, my point in
saying that is I think, If youget to ever have a heart to
heart with an intersex or transperson, they, you'll often
(20:06):
hear, I myself don't understandthis, I'm still figuring it
out, so how in the world can Iexpect, as a trans person, as
an intersex person, how can Iexpect someone who doesn't have
that experience to understand?
What I would, what was comingup for me in the way that you
were sharing is it's that samespirit of if I navigate the
world with a certain humilityin my relationships at work
(20:28):
and outside work with a certainhumility that I don't know
the hell there is to this.
I don't know what'sgoing on with anybody.
I don't care what they looklike on the outside, or even,
what, if they're wearing ared hat, or, whatever the,
whatever signals they'regiving out, I still don't know
what's going on in their innerworld, what's going on in their
family, who they love, what,how that's impacted them, what
(20:51):
trauma have they survived.
I don't know, I won't saythe course word, but the
word that I, the thingthat I, I don't know crap.
All right.
I'll just say, I don't, that's,I, that's just something I
tell myself all the time.
It's just I don't know crap.
I'm always in learning mode.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
I heard that in whatyou were sharing.
I think that's the differencebetween what's actually
(21:13):
helpful and gives, creates aspace where someone who's got
a minority experience mightbe able to speak up and say,
have you considered this?
Or, well, my experienceis different.
Would you mind if I sharea little bit about that?
Or, so if there's a safe spaceto do that, I think a person
that's part of a very small,tiny minority is pretty well
(21:34):
aware that most people aren'tfamiliar with their experience.
Like that's not goingto be news to them.
So I think we all kind of knowis like there's sometimes that
if I want some informationshared, I'm going to have
to be the one to do it.
And I don't, and I've heardother people in larger
minorities share this as well.
It's like sometimes we don'twant to do the emotional labor.
Sometimes we know I'm not goingto be the one to show up and
(21:57):
be the token member of my,my, my minority group today.
I'm just, I don't havethe bandwidth for it.
I'm not, no, just no.
So we have to, like that'sthe inner work of knowing
your own boundaries, right?
And again, I've been taughtthat by people who have more
experience with this than I do.
Entire communities thathave more experience
with this than I do.
(22:19):
So I want to give credit that,I think there are wonderful
mentors and vocal teachers.
Anyway, there's, there aremany wonderful people that have
taught that besides me thatI'm grateful to learn from.
I am just reflecting on likeeven how we are engaging
in this conversation.
And I feel like while wedon't know everything,
(22:39):
we are in spaces.
One, we are teachers ofthis type of work and
engagement with people.
And two, there are parts of ouridentities that are groups that
are historically targeted foroppression, marginalization.
So there's that.
(23:00):
And I feel like we, wedon't know, but we have
some practice in it.
There's something thatwe're working with.
And now I'm thinkingabout the reasons that
people may not respondin professional settings.
And I'm thinking aboutwhat are the reasons that
like are rationalized
as, like a sharedrationalization, shared
(23:21):
norm for not engaging?
Because there's some real onesand this is not about shaming.
It's just, there are veryreal communal experiences
around the avoidance orfear or whatever it is.
But can we talk about that?
Because I just know we're goingthrough it and figuring out how
(23:42):
this is working for us in realtime and we have experience.
And then there's peoplewho are like, I don't
even know what to do.
There's too many things.
So what are those reasons?
What are the norms that arebehind not taking action?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, I'm glad you broughtthat up because it reminds me
like I was, I got distractedby what I was sharing.
(24:05):
So I, what I was trying to sayis the way that we're doing this
is different from having thatsort of, humility and wanting
to create space for each otherto share whatever we need to
share and the messiness of it.
And like you said that it'snot exactly rigid rules.
It's more, responding to thingsthat are going on in real time.
So that's different from that.
My experience of that sort of,um, What I call ideological
(24:29):
discussions of these issues.
It's more like I'm trying to winan argument, or I'm trying to
not look stupid in an argument.
At very least, I'mtrying to defend myself.
So that kind of gets likewhat you're bringing up.
The things that people likeunder, like you said, I
like the way you said it.
It's very compassionate.
People understandably have realreasons why they might want to
(24:50):
avoid these conversations andespecially in the workplace.
So I'm thinking of, I don't,first and foremost, I don't
want to offend anybody.
I have to work with these peopleevery day and I don't want
to cause harm to someone thatI work with that I actually
respect and want to have agood working relationship
with, so it's probably easierfor me to keep my mouth shut
because if, the quiet personisn't offending anyone, right?
(25:12):
If I don't say anything, Ican't say anything wrong.
I do that myself.
I understand that fully.
And then there's, maybe someonewho's a little bit more insecure
in their work might have,that sounded very judgmental.
I meant that from aplace of compassion.
When
I'm
new
knew what you meant.
when I'm, Well, I just wantto make sure anybody who
(25:33):
doesn't know me knows this.
I'm not, that's, I, thecoming into a new workspace,
understandably not secure inone's position, feeling out
the lay of the land, all that.
Like may, someone may not wantto risk sounding like they don't
know what they're talking about.
Like the, what I wasjust sharing in the way
that we're doing this.
Like we are seeminglywilling to be somewhat
(25:55):
vulnerable with each other.
And, I can understand that insome workplaces that's not safe.
You know, maybe, or for acertain individual may, may
just, maybe they could getto a point where they have
skills to remain safe evenwhile they're being vulnerable.
But if you don't have that,those skills, like you pointed
(26:16):
out quite accurately, youand I have been in settings
where we've been taughtand practiced these skills
many times with each othersometimes, but predating
when we knew each other.
and I'm glad you pointedthat out because I
forget that sometimes.
I wasn't born knowinghow to do this.
Like people have definitelyinvested a lot of time
(26:39):
teaching me how to communicateand particularly have
difficult conversations andbeing aware of differences.
We were in a group, Working Withand Across Differences, right?
That's something that'sbeen a consistent part of
my training for 40 years.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, 40 years.
And probably longerbecause my parents were
(27:01):
hippies and they were intonon violent, non violent
community based organizing,
resistance, the anti Vietnammovement, anti Vietnam war,
not the anti Vietnam movement.
he
And,
the
Yeah, civil rightsorganizing for women and,
other things like that.
I'm really digressing, but,now I've even forgotten
(27:22):
what you asked me.
I just,
sorry.
We were just talking aboutthe reasons that people
Yeah, yeah.
Not wanting to look stupid.
Not wanting to, that's whatI was trying to get to.
Just not wanting to, maybe I'lllook like I'm not as valuable to
this team or in this workplaceif I come across like I don't
know what I'm talking about.
Another
reason for me to pull back andmaybe not address these issues
(27:44):
that, like you had brought upearlier, maybe I don't have
any experience with this.
I don't know anyone who does.
I haven't had reason todo any research or get
any training on this.
So no, I'm notgoing to ask quite.
That's the biggest thing Iguess I'm trying to get to with
this part is people that mightbe afraid to ask questions
because they don't want tolook like they don't know.
(28:07):
Yeah.
Which is a wonderful, forme, it's like the looking
like I don't know, and beingwilling to ask a question
is the opportunity to learn.
And it usually builds rapportwith, with other people,
because that's what I've found.
If I'm willing to ask aquestion and I'm not coming
across a know it all,
(28:27):
that's actually muchbetter for my work team
and my work relationships.
But a lot of people don'tknow that yet and they
haven't had that experience.
I'll just land with whatyou brought up that these
are skills we can practice.
We don't have to knowall these things.
And as you pointed out, youand I have some experience
with practicing these skills.
And even so it's, italways remains something
(28:48):
I'm learning in realtime with each individual
person I'm talking to.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
My brain has too many thoughts.
This was like right around thetime in my conversations where I
want to talk about 10 things atonce, but I just want to lift up
(29:09):
one or two pieces from what youwere saying for we keep going.
Which is, I feel like therewas a good amount for me,
10 ish years of what I wasdoing with people that was
really grounded and peoplehad this fear of a lot.
Fear of losing relationships,fear of, getting canceled
(29:31):
or whatever it was.
But there's one that'snow it's spiking for me,
which is not wanting peopleto see them not knowing.
I'm hearing that alot more from people.
There's more verbalizingof, I don't want people
to know I don't know.
And I keep telling people,most people don't know.
(29:52):
Like you're in a spacewhere no, did you know
that people don't know?
Even experts don't fully know.
It's impossible toknow everything.
So you're in companywhere nobody fully knows.
And lots of people have no idea.
And when I do trainings, Istart with anonymous, wherever
(30:12):
I can, anonymous questions andlet people see all the answers.
And the questions usuallyhave very similar responses
around the reasons for fear.
When people see it, the roomjust genuinely surprised.
And I'm like, it'snot surprising y'all.
People don't know how to doit because we're not doing it.
(30:33):
And if we knew how todo it, we would do it.
So it's okay to not know.
Can we normalizeeveryone's showing up,
not knowing how to do it?
So we're all going totry to figure it out.
The practice isthe way through it.
That's like the onlyway through it to me.
And the other part thatcame up, cause when you just
described your response to notknowing your lens about it.
(30:57):
For me in the work that I dowith people, I can always speak
for those people and myself.
And what I'm hearing in you,that's a good example, is you
in yourself, either you workthrough or you don't go here.
There's nothing in you that'sso worried about looking like
you don't know that preventsyou from taking action.
And there are a lot ofpeople who, their fear of
(31:21):
being seen as not knowing isattached to something deeper
themselves about like narrativesabout themselves that makes it
difficult to just take action.
And I'm really trying to getpeople to see the clinical
aspect of a lot of this work.
That we all have these things inus that are preventing us from
(31:42):
doing the things we want to do.
Even at work withour colleagues.
This is why this workcan't be, oh, I just learn
about this at work and thisis how I engage at work.
No, at work, your insidefeeling historical stuff is
in there and it's impactinghow you are doing or not
(32:03):
doing things at works.
There are so many people thatI coach their place of not
knowing is attached to, I don'twant to look stupid because if
I look stupid, then that means,and enter any narrative there
that they got in childhood
Yeah.
or through trauma.
And without that beingacknowledged and addressed,
(32:26):
depending on who theperson is, like there's
various levels of it.
It shows up at work.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
do you think that we cantransition to, so what happens?
Let's say people aregetting it right.
What happens when these, or theissues and experiences of people
(32:48):
of smaller, disproportionatelyrepresentative, represent,
you don't know theword I'm trying to say.
The groups of people aresmaller portion, yes.
What happens when those areacknowledged and addressed?
I think, I went right towhere people get it wrong.
I guess the reason I'mreacting like this, I'm gonna
(33:08):
go ahead and just voice this.
As a trans person, rightnow in our culture, gosh,
for the last several years,there's been an awful lot
of noise about trans people.
Which given how small apercentage of the population we
are, as a trans person, it feelslike a little too much for me.
(33:29):
And I'm saying even when peopleare trying to be inclusive.
So I guess I'm gonna haveto, I just feel I have
to answer this first.
So I know sometimes when peopleare trying to be inclusive,
it's like- Workplace, let'severybody have a training.
Let's, we're gonna havea workplace training
on trans people.
And we're gonna, just reallyfocus, laser focus in on
(33:49):
trans people and bombard youwith lots of information.
And, I guess that could be good.
But, given how little apercentage of the population
we are, it feels a littleweird to like, to have this
floodlight of a spotlight, justglaring on this very, I might
(34:09):
be the only trans person inmy workplace so I don't know
that I really want to be thisfocus of an all day, mandatory,
everybody look at me thing.
Even if, you know what I mean?
So,
I do actually,
I'm not saying that'swrong, I'm just saying
That's not the ideal.
To answer yourquestion, it ain't that.
(34:30):
That's what I wanted to, Ijust want to start there.
At some point, it's we'reall in community together,
we bring ourselves to ourwork, and I'll say, in
the workspace I'm in now.
I am, once again, I'mthe only trans person in
my workplace, but at thesame, it's a small team.
And I was brought on forthat lived experience and
(34:50):
that expertise of workingwith that community.
And I get to do other things.
That's not the only thing I doand the only thing I am there.
That to me is it.
When we can all do that,where, for example, I work
on a diverse team that,internationally diverse.
We have diverse languagesrepresented and diverse in
(35:12):
a lot of different ways.
So if everybody can bringwho they are and bring it in
when it's relevant, and it'slistened to and heard and
respected and integrated inthe work to make our whole
team better because, oh, youcan see things that I can't.
And you can see things thatI can't, and that's good.
And now we can polish thelanguage we were going to use,
(35:35):
or change this phrase, or workdifferently with this community,
or you have this network, andwhat a valuable network that is.
And you can work withthat community, and
get their perspectiveson this intervention.
So if everybody's doingthat, and everybody's welcome
to do that, and there'sspace and responsiveness
(35:56):
to that, that to me is theideal we're looking for.
And that, I can, I think thatto me is why sometimes it's
hard for me to understand whythese, going back to when people
are scared, do they have theseconversations or when these
conversations are ideological.
Sometimes it's that, oh,if you speak your tiny
little truth that hardlyrepresents anybody, you're
(36:18):
drowning out the other 99.
Um, so particularly, yeah,I guess I don't know if I
need to give examples, but,bUt sometimes it is, as a
trans person, sometimes thedesire to exclude trans voices
comes from, I'm oppressedbecause of my gender, and
if we start talking aboutyour gender, which is hardly
(36:40):
anybody's gender, then you'restepping on 50 percent of the
population that's also dealingwith gender-based oppression.
And you're taking timeand energy and space away
from this much larger,actually a majority, I
think it's 51, 52%, right?
Of people that are women.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Yes.
(37:00):
So the oppression olympics thingthat many people, many places,
it's not just professionalsettings, but it's everywhere.
And I started, when you weresaying that, thinking about
oppression olympics, youknow what I was thinking is,
I'm just going to say it.
I was starting to think,how's it going to sound?
It's going to soundlike my truth.
(37:21):
And it's going to soundlike the truth that exists.
When DEI work started booming abit more, and this was prior to
2020, the summer of 2020, whatthe conversation was, that the
LGBTQ plus community and thoseissues concern- now, mind you,
(37:44):
this is a whole group of peoplelumped into one thing, but it
was like, there, that was ahigher priority in workplaces.
Workplaces were more willingto address LGBTQ plus issues
and acknowledge the communityover many other groups
of people, in particular,racial, ethnic groups.
(38:07):
Like that
yeah.
was a lot, a lot.
And then there are allthese talks around, even
in that community, theLGBTQ plus community.
There's hierarchies in thereand those issues were just
kind of, and so it just createsthis hierarchy of people who
get, resources and responsesto issues in the workplace.
Keeping groups of peopleat work pitted against each
(38:30):
other, fighting for like myissues and that, you know,
so, and that's a function ofthe world that we live in.
And I'm not saying this isokay, by the way, I'm just
like, talking this stuff outloud, but oppression olympics
exist systemically, societally,and relationally between each
other, because we feel like itcan't be all of us together.
(38:54):
That's not how we'vebeen taught things work.
It's, there's only roomfor so many things.
So who's going to be up hereand who's second, third?
And if you're at thebottom, well, you just
gotta deal with it.
And what we're talking aboutis in this conversation, and
what I believe other peopleare trying to make room for
is just because one group,one person has an experience,
(39:19):
it's not a cancel out.
It's not a competition of,it's a space where they're
all there at the same time.
So there's no needfor to combat.
And there's still the veryreal part of workplaces where
resources are and attention isgiven to only certain things.
(39:42):
So that can be really hard,but I just wanted to point
that out, that it's a thingthat we all experience, and
then our systems still bedoing the things to keep us in
competition with each other.
Right, right.
Yeah, and when you bringthat up, I think two
things came up for me.
One was, the image of thewelcome table that's been,
that's been so important.
(40:04):
At least where I learnedit was from like Alice
Walker and womanist, Blackwomen's organizing and
just Black organizingin general.
I know I've heard it frommen too, but I primarily, I
first heard it from women.
Bringing that model upto address exactly what
you're talking about.
Just say it does nothave to be this way.
We can all sit at thetable, be welcome.
(40:26):
This is how we doBlack community.
Why can't we do this, youknow, in other spaces?
Learn from us and,it works, right?
So everybody's welcome.
We're not all grabbingfood from each other.
We're just, there'senough for everybody.
We sit together andwe learn together.
And that's the kind of,workplace community I was
trying to describe, I think,I agree with Black women and
(40:48):
other Black people that itcan be like that and why not?
We can do that.
It works.
But the other thing that wascoming up for me, I've already
forgotten because I'm soexcited about that, beloved
community welcome table kindof experience and image.
Gosh darn it.
I was gonna say something,but I can't remember.
So it must not bethat important.
(41:09):
Well,
No, I do remember.
Sorry.
That in contrast with you weretalking about competing for
resources in the workplace.
So that thing about, like,when I said, oh, yeah, when
we do, the all day mandatorytraining of We're gonna
do, we're gonna train onLGBTQ people for two days.
And then we're gonna trainon the Black community,
like that's one monolithicthing for a day or two days.
(41:32):
So that's what feels alittle bit more not that we
shouldn't, if we haven't doneanything, yeah, let's do that.
But that feels a little bitmore okay, everybody's focusing
resources, energy, time, andspace on for a day on some
people, and then we're going totake all those resources away.
And now we're going to focuson these people and then we're
(41:55):
going to go back to our work andnot really focus on this at all.
And that seems to be more,I'm again, I don't want to
say don't do that at all.
It's better than nothing,but I wouldn't want anybody
to think that's wherewe're trying to land.
That's, that may be yourfirst step to building out the
welcome table and experiencingthat, but it definitely,
(42:17):
that, it's still contributingto the, what you were
talking about, competing forresources type of experiences.
And if this communitygets an all day training,
then why don't we?
And by the way, ourcommunity is 10 times the
size of that community.
So maybe we shouldhave a 10 day training.
Well, you know,
Right.
And then,
(42:39):
to your point, you canhave trainings about
specific groups of people,but everybody in these
communities, they're different.
And I think this highlightsthe importance of, when
you were describing yourrelationship with people close
to you, what I was hearingis you all have gotten to a
point where you navigate allthe things as they come up.
(43:00):
They know you, you know them, ifsomething happens, it's that one
statement, you all get it, youknow what it means, you move on.
That's the relationalaspect of the word.
So to have a training describea group of people and their
experiences isn't the answer,I'm not saying don't do
anything because I want to goback to that in a second, but
(43:21):
the, it's more important toteach organizations and for
people to then learn how tonavigate, interact with each
other in various settingsand learn who the people are
that you're working with.
Because you understand them,and they understand you, and
they have different needsand experiences, and it's
(43:43):
just a different type oflearning that's not based
on Black, okay, you're overthere, that's your experience.
And then, okay, trans, you'reover there, I remember this
from that training, I'm goingto say this exact thing to you.
It's not about that, becausethen that's also one thing.
Part of you.
And this is one part of me.
And what about the rest?
It's impossible to go throughall the trainings to categorize
(44:05):
people and be like, you're,in my mind, you're like, 5
percent Blacks all do that.
And then you're this percent.
It's so nonsensical to approachthe work in terms of training.
So there's the relational part.
We haven't gotten to a placewhere we are training and
practicing, learning howto be with each other and
learn each other and cocreate our relationships
(44:27):
and find, collaborateour paths to collaborate
our ways of addressingpoints of disconnection.
That's just notwhat we're learning.
And there's some informationthat I think about a lot of
historical contexts of variousgroups of people that feel
really important to know.
(44:48):
In my experience, a lot ofwhat gets missed, in terms
of people's understandingis historical stuff, and
the meaning of those things,and then how they show
up in today's actions.
People don't get that.
I feel like that's goodinformation to be learning.
(45:09):
And don't discount notlearning about people.
It's just you're not gonnaget to the point that I think
people want to get at, whichis where they know people
and they're not doing harm,.
That you're not going toget to that point by taking
a Black person trainingand LGBTQ plus training.
I'm not going to nameall the categories, but
you know what I mean?
Yes.
(45:30):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, it sounds like itcomes back to that thing you
were talking about beforeabout people you're running
across a lot of people that areconcerned about coming across
like they don't know anything.
And when you were sharing aboutthat before, now as you're
sharing about this, what keepscoming up for me that's been
useful, you asked me about what
(45:50):
work I had done it myself,that I'm not worried
about that anymore.
It's really been life itselfthat's done that work on
me, because what I would.
What I've learned by havingrelationships with other
humans in the world over,I have white hair as I been
here a while, is when I comeacross like a know-it-all, that
does not build relationships.
I can have a PhD all day.
It does not help me buildrelationships at all.
(46:13):
It just doesn't.
Even in a workplace whereyou'd think, well, they hired
me because of my credentials.
Well, maybe youwouldn't, but I used to.
I used to think, so I need toshow everybody that I earned
these credentials and theywere right to hire me for
these credentials because, andthat was super off putting.
Like that never inmy life ever built a
good
I can't even see you like that.
(46:33):
Wow.
Because I did that to death.
I knocked my head againstthat wall until I passed out.
Believe me, I did not walkin the door with my PhD
on the first day and, I'mhumble and I'm here to learn.
No, no, no, no.
I just kept making thatmistake, running like full
speed into the same brick wall.
(46:54):
Someone that is a mentorto me says that insanity
is doing the same thingover and over again and
expecting a different result.
So I did that.
That was me.
And so, life put me, when Icame out, life put me into
a situation where thosecredentials just didn't have
value to the same people anymorebecause a trans person had
them, which so suddenly renderedthem pointless, I guess.
(47:15):
But that was a really good thingfor me because I had, I got to
learn, that there's other waysof communicating with people.
Where those credentialsaren't relevant.
And I was constantlyin learning situations.
Like as a person that had beena, a university department
chair, I was learning howto be a security guard.
I couldn't walk into thatsituation, Oh, I know
(47:35):
everything there is aboutbeing a security guard.
No, of course,even as a janitor.
I ended up, so I'd been apreacher and a theologian
and published theologianand all these things.
I ended up, the job I couldfind was as a church janitor.
Not even THE churchjanitor, I was the assistant
to the church janitor.
I was in learning mode.
I was like, I've neverbeen a janitor before.
These were reallygood things for me.
I started to find out myrelationship with people
(47:56):
are so much better thanthey ever have been.
Because I'm asking questionsand I'm saying, I don't
know how to do this.
I don't actually have anyexperience at this, but,
I'm willing to learn.
How do you do it?
Those were the things thathelped me build relationship.
And of course, it's beenreally clear for me from
day one, I'm never going tounderstand what it is to be
a Black person in this world.
(48:18):
, I can't, I can take trainingsand read books and take classes
and have mentors and friendsand loved ones in my life
who are Black all day long.
And I, I'm grateful to do that.
And if anything that.
The message I hear again andagain is there's a lot of this
you're just not going to get.
You can love me all daylong, but you don't know
what it is to walk throughthe world in my skin.
And you can listen deeply andyou can remember that and be
(48:40):
mindful of that informationthat, you know, as, as much as
I've been able to share withyou or willing to share with
you, but you still don't know.
You don't know what it is.
And definitely for me to bein relationship with people
who have different experiencesthan I do, if I had come
across, I don't even know.
Like I was very youngwhen I was coming here.
(49:01):
Well, I took this AfricanAmerican literature class.
So I know BSU, what you weregoing, I did that one time.
I wrote an article in thestudent newspaper in college.
Yeah, I did that.
I made that I filed out likethat one time, like, Why don't
we all sit I'll be honest withyou, this was the article.
Why don't we all sittogether in the cafeteria?
(49:26):
Because, idiot.
Okay, BSU, you invited meto one meeting, and they're
like, you're a guest here,you will sit in the back,
you will listen, and now youwill know why we don't sit
with you at the f***ing I'm
sorry.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's fine.
It's fine.
First of all, I'mloving this, Donovan.
I have not seen you before.
(49:50):
This is how peopleteach me though.
And I'll say follow up.
Sorry, I'm not, if I was talkingthe way I really talk, it would
be a different effort, but whenI follow up, people are willing,
I better be willing to learn.
That's all I can say.
And when I have been willingto learn, I get to continue
to walk with people let's sayinhumility, knowing that I
(50:11):
don't know what I don't know.
And then I get to havefriends, which being alone,
a know-it-all is very lonely.
And plus, all I'm evergoing to find out is
that I don't know it all.
There's nothing moreignorant than to know it all.
That's what I'velearned in life.
So I guess I'm just sharing thatfor those people that are afraid
I might look like I don't know.
All I've ever found isthat if I act like I
(50:32):
do know, I'm an a hole.
If I admit that I don't know.
I get a chance tohave amazing working
relationships with people.
Yes,
Especially because people wholook like me don't usually admit
that they don't know it all.
Unfortunately.
So it's very, I find that comingacross very sincerely, look,
(50:57):
I've learned the hard way.
I don't know it all.
And I'm going to mess up.
That's the otherthing I always hear.
Like anybody that'sworried, just know, like,
and that's the other thingyou're talking about.
Those trainings reminded meof, I think the core message
of those trainings ought tobe, here's some information
and you don't know anything.
Yeah, Yeah,
Just remember,you're gonna mess up.
Cool that you showed up, greatthat you took notes, great that
(51:19):
you might remember one or twothings that you learned today.
And this teaches you all thestuff you didn't know before
and that's only the tip of theiceberg of what you don't know.
So now you get to navigatein the world as a person
that doesn't know and isdefinitely gonna mess up, but
you also have demonstratedthat you're willing to learn.
Those are really allthe tools you need.
(51:40):
Don't know, I'mwilling to learn.
That's good.
It
Yeah, yes.
And I, these are good thingsyou're actually, this to
me is like a good wrappingup point that we're at and
you are calling attentionto some very good practical
things people can do.
But even in what you'redoing, which I love, by the
way, I, I feel like I, I'veinteracted with you a lot,
(52:04):
but all of these parts aboutyour journey and things you've
done, I just didn't know.
And they're hilarious in away that I can understand
probably didn't feel goodat the time, really sucked,
had to learn through it.
But the part I want to pointout is you're modeling another
practical thing that peoplecan do and can find a lot of
healing from, which is sharethe lessons in the train wrecks.
(52:27):
Like they're, that's, weall experienced these things
that we did and they justdidn't go well and we don't
have to- people retreat toself and they feel a lot of
shame around what they did.
It wasn't right, I'm a badperson, whatever it is that,
wherever the places thatpeople go in themselves.
But there's so muchto learn in that.
And the normalizingof you don't know.
(52:47):
This is actually what itlooks like to not know.
I did these things.
Didn't work out well for me.
And this is where it came from.
Huh?
Yes.
And was well meaning.
Well meaning
but ignorant as hell,
Yes.
Yes.
Ah, it's hilariousbecause we all do those.
(53:08):
We all do those things.
Everybody has their rolesin that, probably, yeah.
Yes.
And sometimes, so yeah,sometimes they suck and
sometimes you can laugh at them.
And laughing at them incommunity is like, I get it.
I know that feeling ofwhatever that was that you
were probably going through.
And wow, look howfar you've come.
That's all okay to talkabout and it's a thing
(53:29):
that people are afraid toeven acknowledge and admit.
It's one, I have all thesefears and I don't want to
look like I don't know.
And then I tried itand it didn't go right.
I don't want anyone to know.
No one's expecting you toget it right on your first
or several-teen tries.
We're just trying it outuntil it starts to make sense.
And that takes time.
(53:50):
It takes so much time, but, Iam just, my heart is full of
everything that you just gave.
And I appreciate you forliving that out and modeling
it and normalizing it's cool.
Yeah, it's very cool.
What a great.
There's just one more thingI want to add to that because
you said, look how faryou've come, and my immediate
(54:12):
thought was, look how far Igot to come because my fellow
classmates who were in theBSU, a couple of them were
willing to extend their handto bring me in for a minute.
Okay.
In a very specific way for avery specific amount of time
for a very specific reason, andI understood their boundaries,
and I, and, they taught me.
(54:32):
My point is, if I hadn't screwedup, I wouldn't have had the
opportunity to learn that.
So a well intentioned screw up,and I think that's the other
piece of it, that they couldtell I was well meaning, or
they wouldn't have invited meif I'd been coming at that from
a different angle, let's say.
So it was a combination.
I effed up, and I didn'tmean to, and they could see
(54:55):
that, so they were willingto invite me in for a second.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's happened to meagain and again, again.
That, I guess that's what I'm,what I was trying to say before
too, is like if I admit thatI don't know, and I know that
I'm gonna screw up sometimes,then I can show up for my
screw ups and show up for thetimes when I'm called in or
called out and I don't havethat fear of getting cancelled.
(55:18):
What it is for me isbecause you brought that
up earlier, cancelled isbeing given a timeout.
That's how I, becauseI have been cancelled.
I won't go into that.
We don't have time forit, but I have been.
So I got to have a timeout.
Think about what I did.
How did I say it?
Why did I say it?
How could I do it differently?
Or is it about, how it landedwith somebody that maybe
(55:40):
I don't have control over?
But it's a learning time.
So I've got to time out.
Okay, great.
I get to learn from that too.
Yes, oh my gosh, just thank youI think this is a good place
to wrap up cause I think wecan keep talking so I'm gonna
bring it in and say, thank you.
This is a really great convo.
So much in here aroundthis topic that I believe
(56:05):
people care about and wantto do something about.
And there's so much in therethat prevents from further
stepping out of the self andinto community with people.
To me, that was likea really big theme.
It's knowing self to thenbe in community with people
and in community with peopleand relationship with people
is where you really learnhow to do these things
(56:27):
that we're talking about.
And it's different from personto person and group to group and
day to day, meeting to meeting.
So if we learn how to navigatepeople and relationships
and all these spaces, Itreally changes things.
That to me is like thebiggest takeaway in all of it.
(56:47):
So thank you so much forsharing your personal
wisdom, your experiences,I, and your modeling.
I absolutely love it.
So thank you for being here.
And if anyone wants to getin touch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
LinkedIn.
Yeah, I pulled back frompublic life a few years
(57:10):
back because that was, yeah,being a trans and intersex
person, I was targeted witha lot of unwanted attention.
I'll put it that way.
I'm not easy to connect with.
I will be transparentabout that, but I do have,
I have a YouTube channel.
I don't turn comments on.
I don't use it a lot.
There is stuff that I've sharedthere from times when I taught
classes and things like that.
(57:31):
But LinkedIn, you cancommunicate with me on LinkedIn.
my best suggestion.
Okay.
What I'll just double checkwith you about the link or links
before I put them anywhere sothat we'll make sure you're
safe and comfortable andwe'll just leave it at that.
All right, cool.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
(57:53):
can visit my website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
On there, you have all ofmy social media handles.
You can email us.
There's freebies.
Take a look at ourguided meditations.
I'm super excited about those.
There's tip sheets and otherthings available for you.
You will also have access tobuy my book, Bias-Conscious
Leadership (58:12):
A Framework for Leading with Action
and Accountability.
I didn't say this, so Ireally want to drive this
point home, which is pleaseshare this conversation
with people on your network,like, subscribe, comment.
And I think that's it.
I hope to hear from yousoon and until next time.
Bye.
I used to think, so I need toshow everybody that I earned
(00:02):
these credentials and theywere right to hire me for
these credentials because, andthat was super off putting.
Believe me, I did not walkin the door with my PhD
on the first day and, I'mhumble and I'm here to learn.
No, no, no, no.
I just kept making thatmistake, running like full
speed into the same brick wall.
(00:23):
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talking aboutthe erasure of people and
communities, in DEI work whenthey have a lower representation
in professional settings.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, weare unpacking real life
scenarios and issues thatcome up in our interactions
in professional settings orin areas where we feel like
(00:45):
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in ourinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, opinions, things
that are shared in today'sconversation, those are my own
and not as a representativeof any of the agencies that I
work for or am contracted by.
(01:21):
Donovan Ackley III, I am so gladto be sharing space with you.
And I have had you on myradar for quite some time.
You are someone that no matterwhat we are doing, what we're
talking about, even if it seemslike a small little check in, I
am learning something from you.
I am certain that people who arelistening and watching are going
(01:42):
to learn something from you too.
We met probably a- I don't know,maybe a couple ish years ago?
We were working at theAcademy for Professional
Excellence together.
And wherever you were, whatevermeeting it was, you brought
a lens that required mepersonally and other people to
think about what was happeningand why it was happening
(02:03):
and where it came from.
Had me always looking atthings I hadn't necessarily
saw or from the lens that wasvery helpful to see it from.
So I found you as somebodywho's an incredible
source of information.
I don't even know if youknow this, but you have
impacted my development.
You are someone that Ilook to even on LinkedIn.
(02:24):
I trust you as aresource and an expert.
So thank you for being here.
I'm excited.
Thank you Charmaine.
Yes.
if you don't mind, you canshare anything about yourself.
Whatever you'd wantpeople to know before we
get into today's topic.
yeah.
Ok.
First and foremost,I'm a parent.
(02:45):
That's somethingthat keeps me going.
And aside from that,
my earliest professionaltraining and work was, I was
ordained as a minister whenI was only 18 years old.
That's, I'm not in thatprofession anymore for a
variety of different reasons,and that may, that may become
(03:08):
part of our conversation.
I don't know.
But, but in any case, I'mbringing it up because
that sort of shaped me.
I've been a spiritualseeker my whole life.
And, I spent many yearsas a religious, religious
studies professor.
I went into that asa scholarly endeavor.
So my PhD is in religionand I was the chair of a
department of religion.
And, it just, I spent severaldecades, working in that field.
(03:33):
So that's a sensibility Ibring with me to the way that
I am, even though I work in thebehavioral health world now.
And of course I respectthat not everybody shares
a sort of, spiritual orreligious perspective.
I guess that sort of spiritualseeking kind of openness
and, the desire to connectthe dots and be in harmony
(03:55):
with others and be in balanceand, be connected to things
that are greater than myself,being connected with people
in compassionate ways.
Those things are all,go deep into who I am.
And so my work life seemsscattered, I would guess,
since I left that worldabout ten years ago.
(04:16):
But, the other thing is thatI'm a trauma survivor, and now
that includes religious trauma.
So part of my own wellnessjourney has been, you
know, It's kind ofblends both those things.
Be of service to other peopleand use my lived experience.
Understanding that it'sreally about my own healing.
I have to do my owninner work every day.
(04:37):
And at the same time, how otherpeople can be a part of that.
And how, sharing, some of thosehardest things that I go through
or have been through thatmaybe that those can be ways
to build community with otherpeople and help, help other.
I want to say that in a notcondescending way, so I'm not
trying to say, Oh, I'm out.
I'm here to help other people.
I want to be helpful anduseful to other people, and
(05:01):
I understand my own healingis interconnected with that.
So it's not a, you know, atop down sort of a thing.
It's a, we're all in thistogether type of thing.
A peer support mentalityis very important to me.
That's, I do have trainingin that as well, even
though I also have a PhD.
I do probably come intomy work more from a peer
support understandingthan from a, I have a PhD
(05:24):
kind of understanding.
I found that to be as helpful,even though, now I'm working
as a research specialist,but I'm also working at
building community basedinterventions in that research.
So I get to draw from both.
When it comes to publishingfindings, it's helpful that
I have a PhD, but when itcomes to actually doing the
work in community, that'sthe PhD does not help at all.
(05:47):
It's the lived experiencethat's helpful.
Yeah, so I don't know.
That was a very longintroduction, I guess
other things will comeup as they're relevant.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
And even in your, I can reada bio, I can see a resume,
but even in hearing youdescribe your journey and
what you're grounded in, Ihadn't heard that before.
(06:08):
And I, it's so interestingand I can see what you still
have in you that you lean onin your approach with people.
I could totally see that.
That makes so much sense.
And it's fascinating.
You, I do feel like in yourexperience as part of- What
I want to say is part of whatmakes you somebody who reaches
(06:31):
people is you have this way of,you use your experience and then
you tie it with other people's.
It's very communal,but in a safe way.
And then you offer it.
And like, did you knowthese things here?
Why don't you look at this?
But it's full of, it's like fromyour heart and your own reality.
(06:51):
It's really cool.
So thank you for doing that.
I just had all of theserealizations when you
were talking, and I verymuch connected with that.
So
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right.
So let's get startedon this topic.
I like to start every episodeby being very clear about what
we mean when we say things.
(07:11):
And when we talk about erasureof people and communities,
I think that while it mightseem self explanatory to ask,
like, why is it importantto be talking about this?
I don't think, if I ask peoplethis question, if I ask 10, 20
people this question, I thinkI'd get very different answers.
And I honestly think Imight get people uncertain
(07:31):
of how to respond.
Because it's a thing that we sayis important, but I don't think
we talk about the layers of it.
So can we start there?
Like, why is it importantto be talking about
these people, community,their smaller portions
of professional settings?
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I can't help but noticewhat's going on in the
(07:52):
world right now as you'reasking me that question.
And I just recently have beenseeing a lot of sharing from
Jewish communities in Americaabout what a tiny percentage
they are of the population, yethow disproportionately they're
represented in hate crimes.
It's also Trans AwarenessWeek, Transgender Day of
(08:14):
Remembrance, which is aninternational, I don't want to
say celebration, but it's aninternational day of remembrance
for trans people that havebeen murdered in hate crimes.
So that's, Trans Awareness Weekand Trans Day of Remembrance
is, they line up together.
I'm thinking of that too, justthat, that's the first thing
that pops to my mind is thatsometimes a very tiny community,
(08:36):
is disproportionately attacked,and lives are at stake.
And it's in a way that evenif we're not a member of
that community, or evenif we don't have anyone we
love who's a member of thatcommunity, maybe we don't
personally know anyone in thatcommunity, it's still when
we think of what's happeningto Jewish people right now.
And I know this complex I'm nottrying to single out one group
(08:58):
or pit one against the other.
I don't mean it that way at all.
I'm just sayingthat has an impact.
When a member of our world ora member of our, our country.
Um, I'm saying itwrong, a member of- but
you know what I mean?
The violence in theworld impacts us all.
Like it's a heavy weightwe're all carrying that
(09:19):
this is happening again.
People are being targeted.
And that feeling of, Idon't know what to do.
I'm afraid, all of it.
It just, it's a heavyweight for everybody.
So I think it does affecteverybody, even if we don't feel
like we're personally affected.
Bearing witness to it is hard.
Not knowing what to do, notknowing how to intervene.
And that certainly affectsworkplaces, having that
(09:42):
running in the backgroundwhile you're trying to
go through your workday.
And then of course, if thereis somebody in your workplace
that you don't know is a memberof those communities or maybe
is openly a member of thosecommunities and you don't
know how to be an ally or...
hmm.
That may not be the way wetalked about it before, but,
(10:03):
that's just what's coming upfor me with what's going on in
the world right this minute.
Hmm.
That makes so much sense.
And my mind immediately jumpedto these different ideas.
I don't know why my mind jumpedthere- to these different
ideas of what could be donein organizations, but it
skipped over several steps.
So I think I'm going toput a pin in that for
a second and stay here.
(10:24):
And one of a couple of thethings that you were talking
about is people associatethese conversations with
a political correctness.
And while what's happeningin society can be very
political for people.
There's also an over associationwith it's just political.
There's this human aspectthat you're talking
about, the connectedness.
(10:45):
And then that responding inthese situations, it's not
a place to be performative.
And I wanted to know if youcould speak a little bit
more on those because yourinsight, like your lens to
that was really helpful for me.
Well, I'm just feeling alot about that right now,
(11:07):
like I said to your lastquestion, so I'm not sure how
clear I'm going to be, but,again, going back to these
are life and death matters.
They're not political idio-.
I understand some peoplegrandstand and soapbox
about these things.
At the same time, it's veryvivid in presence to me right
now, again, with what's goingon in the world, that these
(11:28):
are literally, people aredying and that feeling of,
I want to know how to be ofsupport, but I don't know
how to support this communitywithout offending that
community, even thoughthere are people I love
in both communities.
I'll say this, just tobe more respectful and
stay in my own lane.
I'll keep it to trans andintersex issues because
(11:50):
that's, I'm in bothof those communities.
So, no, how do I navigatethat with, as I said before,
I'm a person that came out ofa very religious background.
That in itself, even justsaying that, that's why I
don't usually lead with that,because, well, I don't want
to offend my atheist friends.
I don't want to, not aboutbeing politically correct, but I
(12:10):
know, people have deep religioustrauma around this stuff.
People have deep trauma aroundmisogyny, and patriarchy,
and who knows what else is intheir background that, as a
trans or intersex person, Iwant to be mindful that your
feelings about sex and gendermight have deep roots in trauma
that you've lived through.
(12:31):
It's not just a political issue.
And I even in one of theseminority groups, or a
couple of these minoritygroups, How can I say it?
I'm targeted with discriminationand people I love in my
communities are targetedwith even more discrimination
than I experience.
And I want to dosomething about that.
(12:52):
At the same time, I want tonavigate that in ways that
we can hear each other, thatwe can, I don't know if I'm
addressing your question or not.
So often it seems likethese things are discussed
in very abstract ways
when I know people that are.
life or death situationsor have died by suicide or,
(13:14):
it's not ideological alone.
In fact, the ideological issuesto me are sort of a distraction
from the real life human livingin a body that's complicated.
How do I navigate that?
How do I navigate that peaceablywith the people in my life?
Recognizing that it maybe hard for them too, and.
(13:36):
fInding ways to be alive inthis body I was born into
in ways that, again, thatjust allow me and other
people to live in harmony.
We may have some things we'vegot to work through, including
conflict, and it may bedifficult and uncomfortable.
Still, how can we live togetherharmoniously, without harming
each other, without being drivento hate crimes out of fear or
(14:00):
however these things happen?
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
You had asked if you'reanswering my question, and my
first thought was, what if wejust have this conversation
in whatever we talk about.
It's important- to me it'simportant that we model what
these conversations look like.
And while there can be somediscussion about topics like
(14:24):
this, especially in professionalsettings, we don't get into
them deep enough to reallyhave consistent practice
with each other, knowinghow to do all of the- you
said the ideological stuff.
And then there'sthe practice piece.
There's a lot that's, notnavigated fully yet for
us to really know how todo it all, and I don't
think we have to do it all.
(14:45):
You're, to me, what you'reliving out right now, even in
your response, is in this placethat's very practical, human.
This is what's happening everyday, and this is why it's
important in people's lives.
And, there's this conceptthat people are talking about,
and this is actually why wecan't stay in this ideological
theory place of, yes, thisis an important issue.
(15:07):
We should do something aboutit without adding the elements
that you're bringing in, becausethat's the most important part.
If you're going to do somethingabout the ideas and the
theories that we're talkingabout, we have to make room
for stuff that you're sharing.
And one of the other thingsthat you were talking about
was that people have thesethings going on in their own
(15:30):
lives, and then people go intovarious professional settings
and they are still themselves.
The world is still the world.
We're still dealing with things.
I think what canbe interesting...
and you really put this onmy radar in a different way.
You really, really did.
And I don't know howI'm going to be able
to capture this either.
So I'm going to lean intowhat I just told you for
(15:51):
myself, but it was like,
There is an experiencethat people are having
that we only know fromthat ideological place.
We know something's important.
We know people are experiencingsomething, but we really
don't know any, a lot ofpeople don't know anything
about the experiences ofpeople that are smaller
portions of a demographic.
(16:14):
And because we are so removedfrom what that experience is,
we don't really, we're notgrasping even like the surface
level of what that means for thepeople that we're working with.
We miss the things that wetalk about casually because
we just don't understand it.
We miss the moments thatare important in our
interactions with each other.
(16:34):
I don't remember exactlywhat you told me.
I just remember thinking tomyself, while I understand
that there are lots of partsof people's identities, and
I can value that till the endof time, there is an impact
of me not knowing anythingabout someone's life, like
not even research wise.
Like I don't know anythingabout it until someone
(16:55):
says something to me.
I miss, I could unintentionallydo harm, miss something,
have points of disconnection.
And then there's experienceof people that are portions
of the smaller populationthat are just sitting with
whatever they're sitting withat work, experiencing more
on top of because there'sall these interactions
(17:16):
and norms that are okay
that further, I keep doing this.
I keep thinking about that'sfurther pushing down the
experiences of people wedon't know anything about.
And the extra layer is,you would say, some people,
we don't even know partsof people's identities.
If we don't know it, oftentimesit's not safe to say it.
(17:38):
There's so much there.
I don't even knowwhere to go with that.
I'm not sure where togo with that either.
One of things you hadasked about before was
being performative.
And I was thinking about thatwhile you were sharing just
now, and the difference betweenbeing performative and just
all of what you just shared,and the way you shared it.
(17:59):
That came from a very, youcame across very sincere.
I want to learn, I want todo better, I recognize that I
don't know what I don't know.
And that's what kept comingup for me is this sort of
genuinely wanting to makespace for people because none
of us know, we don't know.
I'm white all day long.
There's nothing I canfreaking do about that.
(18:21):
It bugs me sometimes, butI have, I have to walk
through this world and justbe aware that, okay, in
this meat bag that I livein, I come across some kind
of certain way to people,whether I want to or not.
And as long as I'm mindful ofthat, I might be able to be
(18:42):
told, if I'm listening and beingmindful and being the kind of
person that's trustworthy andpresent, that somebody might be
willing to share with me, Ouch,you just stepped on my toes.
I'm very thankful that I've hadso many colleagues and friends
and mentors in my life who'vehad those conversations with me.
(19:02):
And they don't, sinceI've had so many of those
conversations, they don'tneed to go on and on about it.
I don't have to take a bunchof their emotional labor.
Usually, a singlesentence is enough to
correct me at this point.
But I'm so gratefulbecause I'm like, nobody
owes me that, you know?
And so now I get to be, becauseI'm intersex and I'm trans, I
get to experience that from adifferent angle of being aware
(19:23):
that there's a lot of peoplein the world that just like you
said, 98 percent of the peoplein the world or more don't
have an intersex condition, 99.
7 percent of the people inthe world are not trans.
So that's a lot of people thatdon't have experience with
this and I, even those of usthat do have experience with it
because there's so few of us,I hear that in trans community
(19:45):
and intersex community, Ihear that over and over again.
It's like, I didn't knowanother person who was trans.
I didn't know anotherperson who was intersex
until I was, X years old.
And I had never heard of it.
My doctors had never heardof it, and so we, my point in
saying that is I think, If youget to ever have a heart to
heart with an intersex or transperson, they, you'll often
(20:06):
hear, I myself don't understandthis, I'm still figuring it
out, so how in the world can Iexpect, as a trans person, as
an intersex person, how can Iexpect someone who doesn't have
that experience to understand?
What I would, what was comingup for me in the way that you
were sharing is it's that samespirit of if I navigate the
world with a certain humilityin my relationships at work
(20:28):
and outside work with a certainhumility that I don't know
the hell there is to this.
I don't know what'sgoing on with anybody.
I don't care what they looklike on the outside, or even,
what, if they're wearing ared hat, or, whatever the,
whatever signals they'regiving out, I still don't know
what's going on in their innerworld, what's going on in their
family, who they love, what,how that's impacted them, what
(20:51):
trauma have they survived.
I don't know, I won't saythe course word, but the
word that I, the thingthat I, I don't know crap.
All right.
I'll just say, I don't, that's,I, that's just something I
tell myself all the time.
It's just I don't know crap.
I'm always in learning mode.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
I heard that in whatyou were sharing.
I think that's the differencebetween what's actually
(21:13):
helpful and gives, creates aspace where someone who's got
a minority experience mightbe able to speak up and say,
have you considered this?
Or, well, my experienceis different.
Would you mind if I sharea little bit about that?
Or, so if there's a safe spaceto do that, I think a person
that's part of a very small,tiny minority is pretty well
(21:34):
aware that most people aren'tfamiliar with their experience.
Like that's not goingto be news to them.
So I think we all kind of knowis like there's sometimes that
if I want some informationshared, I'm going to have
to be the one to do it.
And I don't, and I've heardother people in larger
minorities share this as well.
It's like sometimes we don'twant to do the emotional labor.
Sometimes we know I'm not goingto be the one to show up and
(21:57):
be the token member of my,my, my minority group today.
I'm just, I don't havethe bandwidth for it.
I'm not, no, just no.
So we have to, like that'sthe inner work of knowing
your own boundaries, right?
And again, I've been taughtthat by people who have more
experience with this than I do.
Entire communities thathave more experience
with this than I do.
(22:19):
So I want to give credit that,I think there are wonderful
mentors and vocal teachers.
Anyway, there's, there aremany wonderful people that have
taught that besides me thatI'm grateful to learn from.
I am just reflecting on likeeven how we are engaging
in this conversation.
And I feel like while wedon't know everything,
(22:39):
we are in spaces.
One, we are teachers ofthis type of work and
engagement with people.
And two, there are parts of ouridentities that are groups that
are historically targeted foroppression, marginalization.
So there's that.
(23:00):
And I feel like we, wedon't know, but we have
some practice in it.
There's something thatwe're working with.
And now I'm thinkingabout the reasons that
people may not respondin professional settings.
And I'm thinking aboutwhat are the reasons that
like are rationalized
as, like a sharedrationalization, shared
(23:21):
norm for not engaging?
Because there's some real onesand this is not about shaming.
It's just, there are veryreal communal experiences
around the avoidance orfear or whatever it is.
But can we talk about that?
Because I just know we're goingthrough it and figuring out how
(23:42):
this is working for us in realtime and we have experience.
And then there's peoplewho are like, I don't
even know what to do.
There's too many things.
So what are those reasons?
What are the norms that arebehind not taking action?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, I'm glad you broughtthat up because it reminds me
like I was, I got distractedby what I was sharing.
(24:05):
So I, what I was trying to sayis the way that we're doing this
is different from having thatsort of, humility and wanting
to create space for each otherto share whatever we need to
share and the messiness of it.
And like you said that it'snot exactly rigid rules.
It's more, responding to thingsthat are going on in real time.
So that's different from that.
My experience of that sort of,um, What I call ideological
(24:29):
discussions of these issues.
It's more like I'm trying to winan argument, or I'm trying to
not look stupid in an argument.
At very least, I'mtrying to defend myself.
So that kind of gets likewhat you're bringing up.
The things that people likeunder, like you said, I
like the way you said it.
It's very compassionate.
People understandably have realreasons why they might want to
(24:50):
avoid these conversations andespecially in the workplace.
So I'm thinking of, I don't,first and foremost, I don't
want to offend anybody.
I have to work with these peopleevery day and I don't want
to cause harm to someone thatI work with that I actually
respect and want to have agood working relationship
with, so it's probably easierfor me to keep my mouth shut
because if, the quiet personisn't offending anyone, right?
(25:12):
If I don't say anything, Ican't say anything wrong.
I do that myself.
I understand that fully.
And then there's, maybe someonewho's a little bit more insecure
in their work might have,that sounded very judgmental.
I meant that from aplace of compassion.
When
I'm
new
knew what you meant.
when I'm, Well, I just wantto make sure anybody who
(25:33):
doesn't know me knows this.
I'm not, that's, I, thecoming into a new workspace,
understandably not secure inone's position, feeling out
the lay of the land, all that.
Like may, someone may not wantto risk sounding like they don't
know what they're talking about.
Like the, what I wasjust sharing in the way
that we're doing this.
Like we are seeminglywilling to be somewhat
(25:55):
vulnerable with each other.
And, I can understand that insome workplaces that's not safe.
You know, maybe, or for acertain individual may, may
just, maybe they could getto a point where they have
skills to remain safe evenwhile they're being vulnerable.
But if you don't have that,those skills, like you pointed
(26:16):
out quite accurately, youand I have been in settings
where we've been taughtand practiced these skills
many times with each othersometimes, but predating
when we knew each other.
and I'm glad you pointedthat out because I
forget that sometimes.
I wasn't born knowinghow to do this.
Like people have definitelyinvested a lot of time
(26:39):
teaching me how to communicateand particularly have
difficult conversations andbeing aware of differences.
We were in a group, Working Withand Across Differences, right?
That's something that'sbeen a consistent part of
my training for 40 years.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, 40 years.
And probably longerbecause my parents were
(27:01):
hippies and they were intonon violent, non violent
community based organizing,
resistance, the anti Vietnammovement, anti Vietnam war,
not the anti Vietnam movement.
he
And,
the
Yeah, civil rightsorganizing for women and,
other things like that.
I'm really digressing, but,now I've even forgotten
(27:22):
what you asked me.
I just,
sorry.
We were just talking aboutthe reasons that people
Yeah, yeah.
Not wanting to look stupid.
Not wanting to, that's whatI was trying to get to.
Just not wanting to, maybe I'lllook like I'm not as valuable to
this team or in this workplaceif I come across like I don't
know what I'm talking about.
Another
reason for me to pull back andmaybe not address these issues
(27:44):
that, like you had brought upearlier, maybe I don't have
any experience with this.
I don't know anyone who does.
I haven't had reason todo any research or get
any training on this.
So no, I'm notgoing to ask quite.
That's the biggest thing Iguess I'm trying to get to with
this part is people that mightbe afraid to ask questions
because they don't want tolook like they don't know.
(28:07):
Yeah.
Which is a wonderful, forme, it's like the looking
like I don't know, and beingwilling to ask a question
is the opportunity to learn.
And it usually builds rapportwith, with other people,
because that's what I've found.
If I'm willing to ask aquestion and I'm not coming
across a know it all,
(28:27):
that's actually muchbetter for my work team
and my work relationships.
But a lot of people don'tknow that yet and they
haven't had that experience.
I'll just land with whatyou brought up that these
are skills we can practice.
We don't have to knowall these things.
And as you pointed out, youand I have some experience
with practicing these skills.
And even so it's, italways remains something
(28:48):
I'm learning in realtime with each individual
person I'm talking to.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
My brain has too many thoughts.
This was like right around thetime in my conversations where I
want to talk about 10 things atonce, but I just want to lift up
(29:09):
one or two pieces from what youwere saying for we keep going.
Which is, I feel like therewas a good amount for me,
10 ish years of what I wasdoing with people that was
really grounded and peoplehad this fear of a lot.
Fear of losing relationships,fear of, getting canceled
(29:31):
or whatever it was.
But there's one that'snow it's spiking for me,
which is not wanting peopleto see them not knowing.
I'm hearing that alot more from people.
There's more verbalizingof, I don't want people
to know I don't know.
And I keep telling people,most people don't know.
(29:52):
Like you're in a spacewhere no, did you know
that people don't know?
Even experts don't fully know.
It's impossible toknow everything.
So you're in companywhere nobody fully knows.
And lots of people have no idea.
And when I do trainings, Istart with anonymous, wherever
(30:12):
I can, anonymous questions andlet people see all the answers.
And the questions usuallyhave very similar responses
around the reasons for fear.
When people see it, the roomjust genuinely surprised.
And I'm like, it'snot surprising y'all.
People don't know how to doit because we're not doing it.
(30:33):
And if we knew how todo it, we would do it.
So it's okay to not know.
Can we normalizeeveryone's showing up,
not knowing how to do it?
So we're all going totry to figure it out.
The practice isthe way through it.
That's like the onlyway through it to me.
And the other part thatcame up, cause when you just
described your response to notknowing your lens about it.
(30:57):
For me in the work that I dowith people, I can always speak
for those people and myself.
And what I'm hearing in you,that's a good example, is you
in yourself, either you workthrough or you don't go here.
There's nothing in you that'sso worried about looking like
you don't know that preventsyou from taking action.
And there are a lot ofpeople who, their fear of
(31:21):
being seen as not knowing isattached to something deeper
themselves about like narrativesabout themselves that makes it
difficult to just take action.
And I'm really trying to getpeople to see the clinical
aspect of a lot of this work.
That we all have these things inus that are preventing us from
(31:42):
doing the things we want to do.
Even at work withour colleagues.
This is why this workcan't be, oh, I just learn
about this at work and thisis how I engage at work.
No, at work, your insidefeeling historical stuff is
in there and it's impactinghow you are doing or not
(32:03):
doing things at works.
There are so many people thatI coach their place of not
knowing is attached to, I don'twant to look stupid because if
I look stupid, then that means,and enter any narrative there
that they got in childhood
Yeah.
or through trauma.
And without that beingacknowledged and addressed,
(32:26):
depending on who theperson is, like there's
various levels of it.
It shows up at work.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
do you think that we cantransition to, so what happens?
Let's say people aregetting it right.
What happens when these, or theissues and experiences of people
(32:48):
of smaller, disproportionatelyrepresentative, represent,
you don't know theword I'm trying to say.
The groups of people aresmaller portion, yes.
What happens when those areacknowledged and addressed?
I think, I went right towhere people get it wrong.
I guess the reason I'mreacting like this, I'm gonna
(33:08):
go ahead and just voice this.
As a trans person, rightnow in our culture, gosh,
for the last several years,there's been an awful lot
of noise about trans people.
Which given how small apercentage of the population we
are, as a trans person, it feelslike a little too much for me.
(33:29):
And I'm saying even when peopleare trying to be inclusive.
So I guess I'm gonna haveto, I just feel I have
to answer this first.
So I know sometimes when peopleare trying to be inclusive,
it's like- Workplace, let'severybody have a training.
Let's, we're gonna havea workplace training
on trans people.
And we're gonna, just reallyfocus, laser focus in on
(33:49):
trans people and bombard youwith lots of information.
And, I guess that could be good.
But, given how little apercentage of the population
we are, it feels a littleweird to like, to have this
floodlight of a spotlight, justglaring on this very, I might
(34:09):
be the only trans person inmy workplace so I don't know
that I really want to be thisfocus of an all day, mandatory,
everybody look at me thing.
Even if, you know what I mean?
So,
I do actually,
I'm not saying that'swrong, I'm just saying
That's not the ideal.
To answer yourquestion, it ain't that.
(34:30):
That's what I wanted to, Ijust want to start there.
At some point, it's we'reall in community together,
we bring ourselves to ourwork, and I'll say, in
the workspace I'm in now.
I am, once again, I'mthe only trans person in
my workplace, but at thesame, it's a small team.
And I was brought on forthat lived experience and
(34:50):
that expertise of workingwith that community.
And I get to do other things.
That's not the only thing I doand the only thing I am there.
That to me is it.
When we can all do that,where, for example, I work
on a diverse team that,internationally diverse.
We have diverse languagesrepresented and diverse in
(35:12):
a lot of different ways.
So if everybody can bringwho they are and bring it in
when it's relevant, and it'slistened to and heard and
respected and integrated inthe work to make our whole
team better because, oh, youcan see things that I can't.
And you can see things thatI can't, and that's good.
And now we can polish thelanguage we were going to use,
(35:35):
or change this phrase, or workdifferently with this community,
or you have this network, andwhat a valuable network that is.
And you can work withthat community, and
get their perspectiveson this intervention.
So if everybody's doingthat, and everybody's welcome
to do that, and there'sspace and responsiveness
(35:56):
to that, that to me is theideal we're looking for.
And that, I can, I think thatto me is why sometimes it's
hard for me to understand whythese, going back to when people
are scared, do they have theseconversations or when these
conversations are ideological.
Sometimes it's that, oh,if you speak your tiny
little truth that hardlyrepresents anybody, you're
(36:18):
drowning out the other 99.
Um, so particularly, yeah,I guess I don't know if I
need to give examples, but,bUt sometimes it is, as a
trans person, sometimes thedesire to exclude trans voices
comes from, I'm oppressedbecause of my gender, and
if we start talking aboutyour gender, which is hardly
(36:40):
anybody's gender, then you'restepping on 50 percent of the
population that's also dealingwith gender-based oppression.
And you're taking timeand energy and space away
from this much larger,actually a majority, I
think it's 51, 52%, right?
Of people that are women.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Yes.
(37:00):
So the oppression olympics thingthat many people, many places,
it's not just professionalsettings, but it's everywhere.
And I started, when you weresaying that, thinking about
oppression olympics, youknow what I was thinking is,
I'm just going to say it.
I was starting to think,how's it going to sound?
It's going to soundlike my truth.
(37:21):
And it's going to soundlike the truth that exists.
When DEI work started booming abit more, and this was prior to
2020, the summer of 2020, whatthe conversation was, that the
LGBTQ plus community and thoseissues concern- now, mind you,
(37:44):
this is a whole group of peoplelumped into one thing, but it
was like, there, that was ahigher priority in workplaces.
Workplaces were more willingto address LGBTQ plus issues
and acknowledge the communityover many other groups
of people, in particular,racial, ethnic groups.
(38:07):
Like that
yeah.
was a lot, a lot.
And then there are allthese talks around, even
in that community, theLGBTQ plus community.
There's hierarchies in thereand those issues were just
kind of, and so it just createsthis hierarchy of people who
get, resources and responsesto issues in the workplace.
Keeping groups of peopleat work pitted against each
(38:30):
other, fighting for like myissues and that, you know,
so, and that's a function ofthe world that we live in.
And I'm not saying this isokay, by the way, I'm just
like, talking this stuff outloud, but oppression olympics
exist systemically, societally,and relationally between each
other, because we feel like itcan't be all of us together.
(38:54):
That's not how we'vebeen taught things work.
It's, there's only roomfor so many things.
So who's going to be up hereand who's second, third?
And if you're at thebottom, well, you just
gotta deal with it.
And what we're talking aboutis in this conversation, and
what I believe other peopleare trying to make room for
is just because one group,one person has an experience,
(39:19):
it's not a cancel out.
It's not a competition of,it's a space where they're
all there at the same time.
So there's no needfor to combat.
And there's still the veryreal part of workplaces where
resources are and attention isgiven to only certain things.
(39:42):
So that can be really hard,but I just wanted to point
that out, that it's a thingthat we all experience, and
then our systems still bedoing the things to keep us in
competition with each other.
Right, right.
Yeah, and when you bringthat up, I think two
things came up for me.
One was, the image of thewelcome table that's been,
that's been so important.
(40:04):
At least where I learnedit was from like Alice
Walker and womanist, Blackwomen's organizing and
just Black organizingin general.
I know I've heard it frommen too, but I primarily, I
first heard it from women.
Bringing that model upto address exactly what
you're talking about.
Just say it does nothave to be this way.
We can all sit at thetable, be welcome.
(40:26):
This is how we doBlack community.
Why can't we do this, youknow, in other spaces?
Learn from us and,it works, right?
So everybody's welcome.
We're not all grabbingfood from each other.
We're just, there'senough for everybody.
We sit together andwe learn together.
And that's the kind of,workplace community I was
trying to describe, I think,I agree with Black women and
(40:48):
other Black people that itcan be like that and why not?
We can do that.
It works.
But the other thing that wascoming up for me, I've already
forgotten because I'm soexcited about that, beloved
community welcome table kindof experience and image.
Gosh darn it.
I was gonna say something,but I can't remember.
So it must not bethat important.
(41:09):
Well,
No, I do remember.
Sorry.
That in contrast with you weretalking about competing for
resources in the workplace.
So that thing about, like,when I said, oh, yeah, when
we do, the all day mandatorytraining of We're gonna
do, we're gonna train onLGBTQ people for two days.
And then we're gonna trainon the Black community,
like that's one monolithicthing for a day or two days.
(41:32):
So that's what feels alittle bit more not that we
shouldn't, if we haven't doneanything, yeah, let's do that.
But that feels a little bitmore okay, everybody's focusing
resources, energy, time, andspace on for a day on some
people, and then we're going totake all those resources away.
And now we're going to focuson these people and then we're
(41:55):
going to go back to our work andnot really focus on this at all.
And that seems to be more,I'm again, I don't want to
say don't do that at all.
It's better than nothing,but I wouldn't want anybody
to think that's wherewe're trying to land.
That's, that may be yourfirst step to building out the
welcome table and experiencingthat, but it definitely,
(42:17):
that, it's still contributingto the, what you were
talking about, competing forresources type of experiences.
And if this communitygets an all day training,
then why don't we?
And by the way, ourcommunity is 10 times the
size of that community.
So maybe we shouldhave a 10 day training.
Well, you know,
Right.
And then,
(42:39):
to your point, you canhave trainings about
specific groups of people,but everybody in these
communities, they're different.
And I think this highlightsthe importance of, when
you were describing yourrelationship with people close
to you, what I was hearingis you all have gotten to a
point where you navigate allthe things as they come up.
(43:00):
They know you, you know them, ifsomething happens, it's that one
statement, you all get it, youknow what it means, you move on.
That's the relationalaspect of the word.
So to have a training describea group of people and their
experiences isn't the answer,I'm not saying don't do
anything because I want to goback to that in a second, but
(43:21):
the, it's more important toteach organizations and for
people to then learn how tonavigate, interact with each
other in various settingsand learn who the people are
that you're working with.
Because you understand them,and they understand you, and
they have different needsand experiences, and it's
(43:43):
just a different type oflearning that's not based
on Black, okay, you're overthere, that's your experience.
And then, okay, trans, you'reover there, I remember this
from that training, I'm goingto say this exact thing to you.
It's not about that, becausethen that's also one thing.
Part of you.
And this is one part of me.
And what about the rest?
It's impossible to go throughall the trainings to categorize
(44:05):
people and be like, you're,in my mind, you're like, 5
percent Blacks all do that.
And then you're this percent.
It's so nonsensical to approachthe work in terms of training.
So there's the relational part.
We haven't gotten to a placewhere we are training and
practicing, learning howto be with each other and
learn each other and cocreate our relationships
(44:27):
and find, collaborateour paths to collaborate
our ways of addressingpoints of disconnection.
That's just notwhat we're learning.
And there's some informationthat I think about a lot of
historical contexts of variousgroups of people that feel
really important to know.
(44:48):
In my experience, a lot ofwhat gets missed, in terms
of people's understandingis historical stuff, and
the meaning of those things,and then how they show
up in today's actions.
People don't get that.
I feel like that's goodinformation to be learning.
(45:09):
And don't discount notlearning about people.
It's just you're not gonnaget to the point that I think
people want to get at, whichis where they know people
and they're not doing harm,.
That you're not going toget to that point by taking
a Black person trainingand LGBTQ plus training.
I'm not going to nameall the categories, but
you know what I mean?
Yes.
(45:30):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, it sounds like itcomes back to that thing you
were talking about beforeabout people you're running
across a lot of people that areconcerned about coming across
like they don't know anything.
And when you were sharing aboutthat before, now as you're
sharing about this, what keepscoming up for me that's been
useful, you asked me about what
(45:50):
work I had done it myself,that I'm not worried
about that anymore.
It's really been life itselfthat's done that work on
me, because what I would.
What I've learned by havingrelationships with other
humans in the world over,I have white hair as I been
here a while, is when I comeacross like a know-it-all, that
does not build relationships.
I can have a PhD all day.
It does not help me buildrelationships at all.
(46:13):
It just doesn't.
Even in a workplace whereyou'd think, well, they hired
me because of my credentials.
Well, maybe youwouldn't, but I used to.
I used to think, so I need toshow everybody that I earned
these credentials and theywere right to hire me for
these credentials because, andthat was super off putting.
Like that never inmy life ever built a
good
I can't even see you like that.
(46:33):
Wow.
Because I did that to death.
I knocked my head againstthat wall until I passed out.
Believe me, I did not walkin the door with my PhD
on the first day and, I'mhumble and I'm here to learn.
No, no, no, no.
I just kept making thatmistake, running like full
speed into the same brick wall.
(46:54):
Someone that is a mentorto me says that insanity
is doing the same thingover and over again and
expecting a different result.
So I did that.
That was me.
And so, life put me, when Icame out, life put me into
a situation where thosecredentials just didn't have
value to the same people anymorebecause a trans person had
them, which so suddenly renderedthem pointless, I guess.
(47:15):
But that was a really good thingfor me because I had, I got to
learn, that there's other waysof communicating with people.
Where those credentialsaren't relevant.
And I was constantlyin learning situations.
Like as a person that had beena, a university department
chair, I was learning howto be a security guard.
I couldn't walk into thatsituation, Oh, I know
(47:35):
everything there is aboutbeing a security guard.
No, of course,even as a janitor.
I ended up, so I'd been apreacher and a theologian
and published theologianand all these things.
I ended up, the job I couldfind was as a church janitor.
Not even THE churchjanitor, I was the assistant
to the church janitor.
I was in learning mode.
I was like, I've neverbeen a janitor before.
These were reallygood things for me.
I started to find out myrelationship with people
(47:56):
are so much better thanthey ever have been.
Because I'm asking questionsand I'm saying, I don't
know how to do this.
I don't actually have anyexperience at this, but,
I'm willing to learn.
How do you do it?
Those were the things thathelped me build relationship.
And of course, it's beenreally clear for me from
day one, I'm never going tounderstand what it is to be
a Black person in this world.
(48:18):
, I can't, I can take trainingsand read books and take classes
and have mentors and friendsand loved ones in my life
who are Black all day long.
And I, I'm grateful to do that.
And if anything that.
The message I hear again andagain is there's a lot of this
you're just not going to get.
You can love me all daylong, but you don't know
what it is to walk throughthe world in my skin.
And you can listen deeply andyou can remember that and be
(48:40):
mindful of that informationthat, you know, as, as much as
I've been able to share withyou or willing to share with
you, but you still don't know.
You don't know what it is.
And definitely for me to bein relationship with people
who have different experiencesthan I do, if I had come
across, I don't even know.
Like I was very youngwhen I was coming here.
(49:01):
Well, I took this AfricanAmerican literature class.
So I know BSU, what you weregoing, I did that one time.
I wrote an article in thestudent newspaper in college.
Yeah, I did that.
I made that I filed out likethat one time, like, Why don't
we all sit I'll be honest withyou, this was the article.
Why don't we all sittogether in the cafeteria?
(49:26):
Because, idiot.
Okay, BSU, you invited meto one meeting, and they're
like, you're a guest here,you will sit in the back,
you will listen, and now youwill know why we don't sit
with you at the f***ing I'm
sorry.
It's okay.
It's okay.
It's fine.
It's fine.
First of all, I'mloving this, Donovan.
I have not seen you before.
(49:50):
This is how peopleteach me though.
And I'll say follow up.
Sorry, I'm not, if I was talkingthe way I really talk, it would
be a different effort, but whenI follow up, people are willing,
I better be willing to learn.
That's all I can say.
And when I have been willingto learn, I get to continue
to walk with people let's sayinhumility, knowing that I
(50:11):
don't know what I don't know.
And then I get to havefriends, which being alone,
a know-it-all is very lonely.
And plus, all I'm evergoing to find out is
that I don't know it all.
There's nothing moreignorant than to know it all.
That's what I'velearned in life.
So I guess I'm just sharing thatfor those people that are afraid
I might look like I don't know.
All I've ever found isthat if I act like I
(50:32):
do know, I'm an a hole.
If I admit that I don't know.
I get a chance tohave amazing working
relationships with people.
Yes,
Especially because people wholook like me don't usually admit
that they don't know it all.
Unfortunately.
So it's very, I find that comingacross very sincerely, look,
(50:57):
I've learned the hard way.
I don't know it all.
And I'm going to mess up.
That's the otherthing I always hear.
Like anybody that'sworried, just know, like,
and that's the other thingyou're talking about.
Those trainings reminded meof, I think the core message
of those trainings ought tobe, here's some information
and you don't know anything.
Yeah, Yeah,
Just remember,you're gonna mess up.
Cool that you showed up, greatthat you took notes, great that
(51:19):
you might remember one or twothings that you learned today.
And this teaches you all thestuff you didn't know before
and that's only the tip of theiceberg of what you don't know.
So now you get to navigatein the world as a person
that doesn't know and isdefinitely gonna mess up, but
you also have demonstratedthat you're willing to learn.
Those are really allthe tools you need.
(51:40):
Don't know, I'mwilling to learn.
That's good.
It
Yeah, yes.
And I, these are good thingsyou're actually, this to
me is like a good wrappingup point that we're at and
you are calling attentionto some very good practical
things people can do.
But even in what you'redoing, which I love, by the
way, I, I feel like I, I'veinteracted with you a lot,
(52:04):
but all of these parts aboutyour journey and things you've
done, I just didn't know.
And they're hilarious in away that I can understand
probably didn't feel goodat the time, really sucked,
had to learn through it.
But the part I want to pointout is you're modeling another
practical thing that peoplecan do and can find a lot of
healing from, which is sharethe lessons in the train wrecks.
(52:27):
Like they're, that's, weall experienced these things
that we did and they justdidn't go well and we don't
have to- people retreat toself and they feel a lot of
shame around what they did.
It wasn't right, I'm a badperson, whatever it is that,
wherever the places thatpeople go in themselves.
But there's so muchto learn in that.
And the normalizingof you don't know.
(52:47):
This is actually what itlooks like to not know.
I did these things.
Didn't work out well for me.
And this is where it came from.
Huh?
Yes.
And was well meaning.
Well meaning
but ignorant as hell,
Yes.
Yes.
Ah, it's hilariousbecause we all do those.
(53:08):
We all do those things.
Everybody has their rolesin that, probably, yeah.
Yes.
And sometimes, so yeah,sometimes they suck and
sometimes you can laugh at them.
And laughing at them incommunity is like, I get it.
I know that feeling ofwhatever that was that you
were probably going through.
And wow, look howfar you've come.
That's all okay to talkabout and it's a thing
(53:29):
that people are afraid toeven acknowledge and admit.
It's one, I have all thesefears and I don't want to
look like I don't know.
And then I tried itand it didn't go right.
I don't want anyone to know.
No one's expecting you toget it right on your first
or several-teen tries.
We're just trying it outuntil it starts to make sense.
And that takes time.
(53:50):
It takes so much time, but, Iam just, my heart is full of
everything that you just gave.
And I appreciate you forliving that out and modeling
it and normalizing it's cool.
Yeah, it's very cool.
What a great.
There's just one more thingI want to add to that because
you said, look how faryou've come, and my immediate
(54:12):
thought was, look how far Igot to come because my fellow
classmates who were in theBSU, a couple of them were
willing to extend their handto bring me in for a minute.
Okay.
In a very specific way for avery specific amount of time
for a very specific reason, andI understood their boundaries,
and I, and, they taught me.
(54:32):
My point is, if I hadn't screwedup, I wouldn't have had the
opportunity to learn that.
So a well intentioned screw up,and I think that's the other
piece of it, that they couldtell I was well meaning, or
they wouldn't have invited meif I'd been coming at that from
a different angle, let's say.
So it was a combination.
I effed up, and I didn'tmean to, and they could see
(54:55):
that, so they were willingto invite me in for a second.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's happened to meagain and again, again.
That, I guess that's what I'm,what I was trying to say before
too, is like if I admit thatI don't know, and I know that
I'm gonna screw up sometimes,then I can show up for my
screw ups and show up for thetimes when I'm called in or
called out and I don't havethat fear of getting cancelled.
(55:18):
What it is for me isbecause you brought that
up earlier, cancelled isbeing given a timeout.
That's how I, becauseI have been cancelled.
I won't go into that.
We don't have time forit, but I have been.
So I got to have a timeout.
Think about what I did.
How did I say it?
Why did I say it?
How could I do it differently?
Or is it about, how it landedwith somebody that maybe
(55:40):
I don't have control over?
But it's a learning time.
So I've got to time out.
Okay, great.
I get to learn from that too.
Yes, oh my gosh, just thank youI think this is a good place
to wrap up cause I think wecan keep talking so I'm gonna
bring it in and say, thank you.
This is a really great convo.
So much in here aroundthis topic that I believe
(56:05):
people care about and wantto do something about.
And there's so much in therethat prevents from further
stepping out of the self andinto community with people.
To me, that was likea really big theme.
It's knowing self to thenbe in community with people
and in community with peopleand relationship with people
is where you really learnhow to do these things
(56:27):
that we're talking about.
And it's different from personto person and group to group and
day to day, meeting to meeting.
So if we learn how to navigatepeople and relationships
and all these spaces, Itreally changes things.
That to me is like thebiggest takeaway in all of it.
(56:47):
So thank you so much forsharing your personal
wisdom, your experiences,I, and your modeling.
I absolutely love it.
So thank you for being here.
And if anyone wants to getin touch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
LinkedIn.
Yeah, I pulled back frompublic life a few years
(57:10):
back because that was, yeah,being a trans and intersex
person, I was targeted witha lot of unwanted attention.
I'll put it that way.
I'm not easy to connect with.
I will be transparentabout that, but I do have,
I have a YouTube channel.
I don't turn comments on.
I don't use it a lot.
There is stuff that I've sharedthere from times when I taught
classes and things like that.
(57:31):
But LinkedIn, you cancommunicate with me on LinkedIn.
my best suggestion.
Okay.
What I'll just double checkwith you about the link or links
before I put them anywhere sothat we'll make sure you're
safe and comfortable andwe'll just leave it at that.
All right, cool.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
(57:53):
can visit my website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
On there, you have all ofmy social media handles.
You can email us.
There's freebies.
Take a look at ourguided meditations.
I'm super excited about those.
There's tip sheets and otherthings available for you.
You will also have access tobuy my book, Bias-Conscious
Leadership (58:12):
A Framework for Leading with Action
and Accountability.
I didn't say this, so Ireally want to drive this
point home, which is pleaseshare this conversation
with people on your network,like, subscribe, comment.
And I think that's it.
I hope to hear from yousoon and until next time.
Bye.
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