August 28, 2023 • 51 mins
In the world of DEI work, feedback can be a powerful tool for growth and change. But what happens when feedback becomes personal and DEI pioneers are left questioning their approach? Join us as we explore the challenges of receiving feedback in DEI efforts and the importance of understanding the layers of feedback to prompt the potential for change. But be warned, the path to progress may not always be smooth...
In this episode, you will be able to:
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Grasp the essentials of spearheading a successful DEI journey.
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Unearth the technique of processing feedback critically and constructively in DEI endeavors.
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Decipher coping mechanisms to alleviate discomfort emerging from DEI work.
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Realize the significance of emotional well-being and self-regulation in navigating DEI journeys.
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Figure out how to build an inviting and supportive setting for DEI-centric actions.
The guest for this episode is Bola Ruff
Meet Bola Ruff, our incredibly insightful guest for today. Bola's multicultural background as a British-born Nigerian woman raised in the United States allows her to bring a broad understanding of human interactions and their implications in DEI efforts. Her profession as a clinical preceptor and therapist for Thriveworks has honed her analytical and empathetic understanding of individuals and their interaction in communal settings. Beyond her professional commitments, Bola values quality time with friends and family, enjoys exploring new places, and loves to embrace the outdoors through leisurely walks. Her comprehensive professional and personal experiences make her a compelling voice in the DEI conversation.
One of My Fav Takeaways: Understanding Key Strategies for Managing Discomfort Engaging in DEI work invariably involves challenging and sometimes uncomfortable conversations. Leaders must be equipped to handle this discomfort by developing coping mechanisms, practicing emotional regulation, and actively embracing difficult conversations. Exploring clinical perspectives to navigate discomfort and maintaining curiosity can facilitate dialogues, contributing meaningfully towards fostering an inclusive environment.
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
To get in touch with Bola Ruff, you can contact her here:
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omobolaruff/
The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:00 - Setting the Stage, 00:04:40 - Feedback in DEI Work, 00:07:52 - Feedback for Those Leading the Work, 00:12:25 - When There is An Absence of DEI Work, 00:14:49 - Clinical Aspect in DEI Work, 00:16:54 - Recognizing and Regulating Responses to Feedback, 00:19:30 - Expectations and Standards in DEI Work, 00:21:29 - Holding and Processing Feedback, 00:25:53 - Returning with Messaging and Questions, 00:29:43 - Moving Forward and Accepting Feedback, 00:33:12 - The Importance of Understanding the Work, 00:34:20 - Su
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Maybe I just missed something.
(00:01):
So I went back and I waslooking at recordings,
like, no, no, this isbeing said in various ways.
And in my reach back outas thoughtfully as I could.
We couldn't, we were not able toreach a point of understanding.
That was my first timewith an agency where we
(00:22):
both decided to part ways.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Living Out Loud Discussion
Series, where we are unpackingreal life scenarios and
issues in our interactionsand professional settings,
or those places where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
And that means we aretalking about the things
that typically go unsaid.
(00:42):
The goal of every episode isto reveal the layers and the
nuances in our interactions sothat we can learn about them
as a community that cares aboutdiversity, equity, inclusion.
I am your host, Charmaine Utz.
Relational DEI Expert andtoday we're talking about
flowing with feedback whenyou are leading DEI efforts.
(01:03):
I want to be clear that thethings that I say in this
discussion series and allof the episodes, they are
my own opinions, and not asa representative of any of
the agencies by which I'memployed or contracted with.
(01:31):
This topic is not justapplicable to people
who are in DEI roles.
It matters if youare even experiencing
different DEI efforts.
So in any way, shape, orform, if you are connected
to DEI, even if you arereceiving a service, then
this episode is for you.
Now my guest fortoday is Bola Ruff.
Bola, thank you somuch for being here.
(01:53):
Thank you for having me.
Yes.
Yes.
So Bola is, she's been oneof my friends for several
years, like several years,in many different capacities.
What I'm going to do firstis formally introduce you
and then chime in with theways that you and I are
connected and then we will getstarted into the discussion.
(02:13):
As a British born Nigerianwoman raised in the U.
S., Bola resonates with howthe dimensions of gender,
race, and culture canimpact family, work, and
navigating every life issues.
She is a former militaryspouse, a wife, a sister,
a daughter, and an aunt.
She completed her Master ofMarriage and Family Therapy,
Counseling at CapellaUniversity and currently works
(02:35):
as a clinical preceptor andtherapist for ThriveWorks.
In her spare time, Bola lovesto travel, take walks, and
enjoys her family and friends.
Now, what's really interestingis that when I asked Bola to
submit her bio, I was like, oh,there's a lot of stuff missing.
In particular, the thingsthat she and I have done
together.
And I was like, you havedone a lot of things.
(02:58):
You have been involvedin the most...
Painful, difficult,challenging moments of my
personal, professional career.
You have been like my confidant,my strategic partner, someone
who was helping me build mybusiness from the ground up.
You've been my clinicalconsultant expert.
You've been a consultantwith Living Unapologetically
(03:21):
and an administrator.
And I was like, hey, where'sthe- Where is that at?
So just had to talkabout that out loud.
I was going to say, so Itried to keep it short and
sweet, because if you giveme the space and the time, I
will write a whole narrative.
So I try to keep itpresent and short.
And I figured that a lot ofmy background and kind of the
(03:41):
ways that we intersect andwe've done this work would
come out in this conversation.
So I wasn't too worried about
All right.
That makes sense.
So maybe I was feeling left out.
I was like, no, becauseBola's been doing a lot of
stuff and it is not up in
here.
So thank you so muchfor joining again.
Yeah.
So today's topic again,flow of feedback when you
are leading DEI efforts.
(04:03):
the first thing I wantedto actually talk about is
something that I feel like Icould talk about with anyone
who really gets the work.
And it is this constantstate of hearing feedback.
It's like the essence ofleading these types of efforts.
And so I just wanted to beclear, with our audience,
like when we say feedbackfrom this lens, what are
(04:25):
we really talking about?
And so let's just start thereso we can all be on the same
page.
Okay, that sounds likea great place to start.
Yeah, this work for anyonewho hasn't been in it
and for everyone who has,they can probably relate.
This work is beyond personalbecause it does talk all, it
(04:47):
speaks a lot to who we areas people and what we value
and so oftentimes when weare getting into these topics
and, discussing these things,feedback, being able to hear
the feedback that people aregiving, whether it be on our,
how we are delivering andengaging in the work or how
(05:09):
they are experiencing, it intheir DEI issues, it's really
important to be open andpresent to that information.
One, because it's going tobe helpful to be able to
navigate these conversationswith the people that
you're engaging with.
And then two, because it'simportant in your own personal,
(05:32):
growth journey and beingable to hear how people are
experiencing you and the thingsthat you are saying and to be
able to unpack what's yoursto unpack and then push back
slash give back what's not yoursand what's theirs to unpack.
yeah.
(05:53):
Yes, that all makesso much sense to me.
I often tell people thisjob is just like, I'm just
constantly hearing the stuffthat needs to be fixed.
It's often like the purpose,at least that's the purpose
at first for a very long time.
But even if agencies getto a place where things are
going really well, you stillhave to have these mechanisms
(06:15):
to be hearing feedback.
And you're right, it'swhat's happening in an org.
But then you also end uphearing feedback about you,
how you're doing things andways that you can make changes.
And it's, it feels prettyconstant and it's a thing.
It's totally a
thing.
It is a real thing.
And I think it's important,to highlight what you said
(06:36):
in that, this process isnot linear and it doesn't
have a start and a stop.
I think people come into thiswork thinking, okay, I'm going
to do this one thing, or I'mgoing to teach this one concept
and it's done and it's not.
It's very cyclical.
It's very feedback loopthat continues to move
(06:58):
you in a direction thathopefully, embodies growth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is one of those thingswhere it's you kind of have
to build the muscle for it,cause it doesn't really go
away and the need does stay.
And I also wanted to talk alittle bit about like, why this
discussion is applicable topeople beyond those in the role.
(07:22):
I'm hoping people in this role,this can at least be validating.
But also, what are the ways thatyou can, build that muscle or
get the support that you need?
Like, how do you navigatethis, inevitable place?
But if you're not someonethat's leading the work-
when I say leading the workthat could mean maybe someone
who's hired in a DEI position.
(07:42):
That could mean leadersin organizations.
It can mean maybe faculty orstaff and higher education.
It can mean DEIcommittees or task forces.
There are different people.
moving the work forward.
These types of experiencesthat we're talking
about
are felt by anybody leading the
(08:03):
work.
Yes.
Anybody, and I think that Istand in a place where, I really
fully understand that because,as you had mentioned in my bio,
my work with an advocacy in,diversity and inclusion, has
extended as far back as, middleschool and high school for me.
And you're right, you neverknow the type, the people
(08:28):
engaging with the work andlike the positions that
they find themselves in.
I know that it is very on trendright now for agencies to have
DEI councils and committees.
I am actually part of theDEI Committee at ThriveWorks.
It was just started.
(08:49):
I'm super excited to be engagedin that work and our committee.
The people involved and engagedspan all types of walks of
life experiences, and aredoing this, strictly volunteer
basis, not being paid becausethe work means so much to them.
Yeah, you're right.
It spans.
Congrats on the newwork that's starting.
(09:10):
I am sure that you have a lotof experience to contribute
to that particular journey.
Now let's get into I want tojust, hone in because, feedback
could be, like, a really big
thing.
But the feedback thatI'm, really curious
about is this, inevitableplace that organizations
(09:34):
or groups or councils ordepartments- that there's this
inevitable place that peopleleading the work can reach.
There's this inevitable placewhere there's a lot of great
work being done, but thenthere appears to be this
time where it starts to bereally, really difficult.
(09:55):
And those leading the work,hear a lot of feedback about
how they are approaching thework or stewarding the work.
It tends to be less aboutthis is what our organization
or department or groupwants to do and hones in on
those leading the efforts.
(10:16):
And I wanted to talk aboutthat because it's just
fascinating to me how it happenslike over and over again.
It's something that Ihave to talk up front
about with the people that wework with and consult with.
I'm like this is gonna be athing, so let's talk about
it now and we'll address it.
But let's just set up shophere and talk about that.
(10:38):
What that's and I know you'veexperienced that with me.
on a few occasions.
So yeah.
What do you think?
I think that ties back into whatI was speaking about earlier
where this work is so personaland, sometimes that lends
itself to, us using personalexperiences to describe the
(10:59):
work or engaging on a personallevel about experiences we've
had, that pertain to the topic.
and then sometimes, this isjust my personal opinion.
It doesn't come from anywherescientific or written down.
I think the way that peopleare able to digest the
(11:19):
information related to DEIis finding examples of it in
real life and in real time.
And unfortunately, when it comesto being in organizations that
have a lot of characteristicsthat are counter to inclusivity
and diversity, people startto pick up on where they
(11:41):
see the absence of the DEIwork that we are discussing.
And, yeah, in an effortto connect and understand,
they start to see where itisn't, and they start to
see where people are missingthe mark in being inclusive
and promoting diversity,and it turns personal,
(12:06):
sometimes, unknowingly.
Yeah, no, it makesa lot of sense.
It makes a lot of sensebecause I find myself
in that situation a lot.
It's like incredibly challengingbecause when you were
talking about people noticethe absence of things, that
really did something to mebecause, that is what happens.
It's not the only thingthat happens, but it's one
(12:27):
of the things that happenswhen people are scrambling.
They, don't like the feeling,or maybe there's not this,
progress, or they're evengetting, other feedback around,
like, how it's not working.
People start to lookmaybe outwards, "What
are other people doing?"
And "I read this article," and,"we're not doing," there's, an
absence that's, highlighted.
And then honing in on thoseleading- why aren't you,
(12:48):
or if you would have done,or we didn't like this
feeling, so can you then do.
And sometimes it's yeah,I want to encourage this
dialogue and encourage thechallenge, but then can we,
stay here a little bit longer?
Or is it just supposed to be,like, we share the feedback and
(13:09):
we're supposed to just, changehow we do things right away?
Do you remember, I remember, acouple situations where I had
to speak with you multiple timesabout, it was one situation and
we had to talk regularly becauseI was like, I can't, is it me?
Wait, can you help me?
I want to entertainthis, but is it
(13:30):
me?
Yeah.
And I think the other partthat you're bringing up and
that you're touching on ispeople coming into this work
sometimes don't, they haven'thad the experience of sitting
with discomfort and/or havingdifficult conversations.
And so coming from a clinicallens and using clinical
(13:53):
terms, when people are feelingvulnerable, they do things to
distract and, protect theiremotional ego, and that can
take the form of, sometimesit's playing the blame game.
Sometimes it's, pointingat other things.
Sometimes it's like graspingat straws for solutions.
(14:13):
So I think that coming at itfrom like a clinical place,
when people are on this journeyand they, one, haven't had
experiences like this before,or two, don't have the coping
mechanisms or the self insightor, have done any kind of
personal work, they don'thave the skills to manage the
(14:35):
feelings that come up in thiswork in these conversations.
And yeah.
I am so glad that youbrought that up because
I, I feel fortunate to besurrounded by clinical people.
It is a lot of like myorientation and I do the
work with clinical people.
(14:55):
And I feel like when we sayclinical in a DEI space,
people just attribute itto therapy or work that
doesn't necessarily fit in.
And I'm like, no, y'all Idon't even know how to do
this and lead this workwithout the clinical aspect.
And the clinicalaspect is really what
you're talking about.
(15:15):
It's not- Hey, everybody needstherapy, or you're responsible
for being a therapist or as amanager supervisor, responsible
for being a therapist.
That's not it at all.
But there is this internalability that we have,
or point of which wecan only take so much.
And if we don't have access tothat depth or ability to really
(15:37):
be in discomfort, the abilityto be in challenging situations
or to access the vulnerabilityto do it, then it does impact
how far the work can go.
So I just, I reallyappreciate you saying that.
I really want to do a wholeepisode on that because I think
the skillset to really leadthis work, should include an
(16:01):
ability to facilitate and leadwith- I don't even like calling
it soft skills because I keepsaying clinical, but that's
because my orientation, I don'tknow what else to call it.
And like it, we need to,be able to lead people
and lean into that sothey can see what they're
experiencing and how thatmight be getting in the way.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think I, and this mightjust be, like you said, my
(16:25):
orientation and my lens andthat I'm surrounded by it, I
feel like the tides are shiftingin people's understanding of-
even things like mindfulness.
There's a growing understandingthat being able to be present
in the moment and pay attentionto what's happening in your
body and listen to the signalsthat your body is sending you
(16:47):
and then know how to managethose signals is something
that we're all starting torecognize and understand.
And I think that is a smallexample of things that
is important for peopleengaging in this work
to be able to recognizeand, do and facilitate.
Because when we aretalking about things
(17:09):
like characteristicsof white supremacy.
That word supremacyis, so charged.
And things happen in people'sbodies when they hear that
word that, we need to beable to speak to and we need
to be able to identify andwe need to be able to help
regulate, in the moment.
Absolutely.
No, I've, I am thinkingabout several situations
(17:33):
in which I have had to workwith leaders in very intense
moments to help them regulate.
And then after that beinglike, we need to get you at
a place where you're able toself regulate yourself because
this process that you're goingthrough will continue to happen.
(17:54):
You will continue to hearfeedback that's what you want.
You want people to be ableto share openly with you.
And it's not goingto always feel good.
I don't even likehearing feedback as
a leader of the work.
I don't.
It's, it's that, initial,oh no, I want to be doing
it all right, but I'm not.
You got to get over it.
But the ability to selfregulate is so important
(18:15):
because if you can't, if thefeedback can't even get inside
and go anywhere afterwards,
it's really not.
It's really hard to do anychange from there internally,
let alone, outside of if youare in charge of leading an
organization or running it orleading these types of efforts.
Yeah, I think it's so funnybecause it's like when we think
(18:39):
about a lot of organizationsand business setups, it's
common practice to havequarterly or annual reviews
of performance for employeeswhere they are supposed to sit
and receive feedback, whetherit be good or bad, and take
it and respond to it in a waythat, is polite and palatable.
(19:02):
And then go and make changesand improve from what
feedback that they were given.
And I think that in an equitablespace, being viewed as someone
who is coming in either asan expert or a leader or,
a facilitator of a process,modeling what is often asked
(19:24):
of the people who are engagingin this work with you is
go like leaps and bounds.
yeah.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
I'm just like nodding my headlike, yes, that is so true.
I feel like it's going to go ona tangent, but I just want to
validate what you're saying thatthere is often an expectation
of, employees in an organizationor even like students, or for
(19:49):
non- leadership level staff tohave a capacity to do something
and to engage in a practicethat those who have positions
that hold more power andprivilege really struggle with.
So it's really interestingto hear the different levels
that we, the standardsthat we hold people to.
(20:10):
It was just interesting,and my mind is going to
go in a bunch of differentplaces, so I'm going to just
stay, right here where we're
at,
Content for another day.
Right?
I want to talk about how,what a good process is
when someone leading theseefforts hears feedback.
Because we're talking a lotabout why it makes sense to
(20:31):
not just take the feedbackand, make it seem like
it's all your fault per
se,
but there's just, it's layered.
So if we can just really settlein there and just explore
it, that would be awesome.
Definitely.
And there's somethingthat comes to mind.
And we have not talkedabout this ahead of time.
if I just gave you someindicators of a situation,
I feel like you would knowwhat I'm talking about.
(20:53):
Cause it was a couple ofyears ago and it was that
situation where, we kepthearing feedback and I kept
reaching out to you to process,
is this real?
Do you remember what I'm
talking
Yeah, I do.
Cause I, we had moments.
Yeah, that we wouldgo back and forth.
And have in depth conversations.
(21:13):
And I think that is a good-when talking about the process
and being a person who'sdriving the work forward,
what, you can do when youare hearing feedback, holding
feedback, and then trying tofigure out what to do with it.
I think a big part of it is inthe moment when you're receiving
(21:34):
the feedback, being present, notnecessarily having to respond to
it or having a response for it.
It is, perfectly okay to bein that space and in that
moment and be like, I hearwhat you're saying and I
am, I'm going to hold that.
And I'm going to come back, tothis, and just be okay with that
(21:56):
and then sit with that feedback.
And I think also what you'rereferencing is it's important to
have partners in this process,whether it's one sounding
board, whether it's severalsounding boards, to be able to,
process through the information,because it's a lot to hold.
Oh my gosh.
(22:16):
Yes, you, in particular, havebeen so skilled at helping
unpack layers, helping slowdown and see what is before you.
I remember each time, in amoment, I do what you're saying.
even if it's hard, it tookcourage, effort, whatever
(22:37):
it was, someone gavefeedback, let me hold it.
Like, I got the feedback.
Sometimes- depending on whatit is, I can say something in
a moment, but you're right.
Sometimes it's like, let melook a little deeper and,
give a thoughtful response.
Or if it's an email orsomething like that, you
still want to take thetime to chat with someone.
But you and I connected.
I'm like, all right,I got this feedback.
(22:59):
It made me feel whateverthe things I felt, I just
needed to say all of them.
I didn't like it or it upsetme or it made me really
sad or whatever it was-you held all the emotions.
And oftentimes, if I'm beinghonest, I don't like it, I
don't like hearing feedback, butit's so important to hear it.
And then I would ask, sometimes,there might be pieces of it
(23:21):
that, really make sense to me.
This is how I'm processing this.
And I can actually seeme doing XYZ in this way.
Does that make sense to you?
Have you seen that?
And you're very honest.
I think that part of havingsomeone to talk to, or people
to talk to, is that youchoose people who will tell
you, yes, that is yours.
Or no, not that.
(23:42):
Having someonewho will tell you.
And then there are otherthings where I'm like, but
this over here, like theseparts of the feedback, they
don't seem right to me.
It doesn't.
And you just were sogood at providing the
context I couldn't see.
When you're someone whohears feedback, it's harder
to see all the pieces.
(24:03):
For me, it's really hardto see all the pieces.
So you were like, let'slook at where this place
is at on their journey.
What do we know aboutthese parts of the journey?
What do we knowabout these dynamics?
You provided this full picturethat was oh my gosh, this
makes so much sense that thiswould be coming up right now.
(24:25):
Yeah.
And again, you're making greatpoints that people in this
journey need to be aware of.
you often need to takea step back and look
at the bigger picture.
When it's like right herein front of your face,
this is all you see.
And oftentimes there'sa lot going on around.
People are bringing their ownexperiences, their own stories.
(24:48):
Again, I hate to keep harpingon it, but their own ways or
lack of ways to cope with theinformation that's coming out.
And that looks a myriadof ways, but it typically
feels chaotic and targeted.
so being able to have, like yousaid, somebody or a couple of
(25:08):
somebodies that one, you can.
Unpack everything, unpackthe entire experience with,
and then two, that is goingto give you honest feedback.
again, you're practicing thatvulnerability that you're
asking of people in the spacesthat you're going into, and
you're embodying the processof what it means to really
(25:32):
do DEI work on a personaland an organizational level.
so yeah, definitely.
Holding it, processing it,unpacking it, getting input
and feedback from, trusted,advisors or colleagues, whatever
you have, around you in yourcorner, really important.
(25:53):
Yeah.
I'm...
Also, really tapped into,once you do all of that,
then we gotta, come back.
There's the part, we might ownsome of it, and then there's
the part of, but this is, yoursto hold to, and the support
to come up with like how weapproach that is important.
(26:14):
And it really matters.
there's so manythings to consider.
Is it, is it a clientthat you're working with?
if it's a consulting clientor if it's leaders in an
organization, or if there's thisperceived or actual privilege
power over, how do you returnback with what is yours and
also what might not be yours?
Or maybe sometimesit's not yours.
(26:35):
how do you go back?
And I remember you and I hadconversations about coming
up with that messaging, gameplanning together, holding both
truths and also holding bothopportunities to grow from it.
And I know the messagingwas always wrapped in
really good questions.
Not necessarily Hey, didyou notice this, and this,
(26:55):
not throwing it back.
But here are some questionsthat came up for me or for
us that had us wondering whatelse might be contributing
to this experience.
And the questions usuallygetting people to think
about what else is there?
What might I have missed?
And it helps, create afurther dialogue instead of,
(27:16):
a pointing back and forth.
you take that.
No, I take, it's not about that.
It's, truly continuingthe conversation so that
both parties or whoeverelse is involved, but
everyone can, reallyunderstand all the pieces.
Because that is the, that'sthe real work too, it's not
(27:37):
just sharing feedback is apart of DEI work, but the
ability to engage in thesetypes of conversations, to have
a really good understandingof each other, and to make
changes so that we can betterinteract with each other is
really what it's all about.
And so as someone leading thework, it's really important to
me to model for people, whatto do in these situations,
(28:01):
because those situationsare applicable, everywhere.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I love that you highlightedmaintaining curiosity,
anytime you're going intoa situation that is highly
charged, being and stayingcurious puts people at ease
because you're in a place andyou're coming at it from a, I
(28:24):
truly want to understand yourexperience and how I contributed
to it or how I can, helpexpand upon it, process it.
and that is so disarming.
That is a, there's a comfortto that, to know that, the
person across from you or theperson that's facilitating
this work with you and it'sokay, I heard what you said.
(28:46):
Let me make sure Ifully understand.
I'm curious about, let'sget curious together
and turn it into aconversation like you said.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I like the waythat you say that.
I often tell people how tohave courageous conversations.
One of the first thingsis to name all the stuff.
(29:07):
Just what do we have before us?
It's uncomfortable.
this is how I'm feeling.
Just whatever I can doso people know that I'm
actually really joined onthis experience with them.
And it doesn't always feel good.
And then the other thingthat comes to my mind
is when that's the case.
While it might not alwaysfeel great in a moment, the
(29:27):
outcome is something to me thathas typically been something
that the people we couldall agree on, at least agree
on, this makes sense for us.
We can proceed, whichis what we really want.
We don't all have tohave a hundred percent
on the same pageness,
but we all know whathappened and we all agree
about how to move forward.
And that doesn't always happen.
(29:49):
I remember working witha different, agency and
we were getting a lot offeedback about what came out
of our, needs assessment.
And I don't know, I don't knowany place that has felt great
about the needs assessmentbecause there's wonderful things
that go on in organizations.
(30:10):
And then there's just thestruggle points and to see the
struggle points, it's reallyhard for leaders to sit with.
I understand.
However, I have experiencedon a couple of occasions
where leaders will notaccept what is being given to
them in a needs assessment.
(30:30):
And I had one really difficultone where I felt in the
presence of the leaders, whatI was being met with was maybe
we just missed something.
it wasn't just melooking at this data.
We had a team of peoplelooking at the video and
coding all of this stuffand hearing the narratives.
So, I just, I reallyfelt challenged because I
(30:52):
recalled all these momentsthat I facilitated and
all these meetings that wehad, getting to the data,
but they were so certain.
And they were certain formany reasons what they knew
about their organizationand what staff who
participated in it told them.
And I just, I felt letme do my due diligence.
Maybe I just missed something.
(31:12):
So I went back and I waslooking at recordings,
like, no, no, this isbeing said in various ways.
And in my reach back outas thoughtfully as I could.
We couldn't, we were not able toreach a point of understanding.
That was my first timewith an agency where we
(31:33):
both decided to part ways.
Now this was a long processthat we went through.
We were very committedto showing up and
having the conversation.
So it wasn't like, F you,I'll never come back.
But it was- you know what?
I'm standing onwhat I know is here.
I can understand that thisisn't what you're looking for.
And in their turn, they're thisisn't what we're looking for.
(31:53):
But thank you forwhat you've given us.
And we just parted ways.
But that was my firstwow, okay, we're just not
going to arrive there.
But there was nothing that Iwas able to say to get that
leadership team to, to believewhat their staff were saying.
There was nothing.
And it was fascinating.
(32:14):
And unfortunately,that is the case.
Again, everybody is enteringthis work at different
points on their journey.
Everybody has different,they're coming in with different
understandings of what DEIis and how they think that
it should operate in theirorganization or their school or
(32:34):
their, (insert location/group).
And when that is the case, youarticulated so beautifully,
it's a process of, feedback,unpacking, processing,
staying curious, and thenif you get to an impasse,
sometimes that's what it is.
(32:56):
And again, a big themethat keeps coming up in
our conversation today is,that being uncomfortable,
it isn't cut and dry.
This work can't get tied upin a pretty bow and handed
and it's, sometimes we getstuck and it really is they're
not at the point where theycan do the work, they don't
have the same understandingof the work as I do and,
that, that is what it is.
(33:17):
Yes.
That's true.
All we can really committo is the conversation
and
showing up and the modeling andthere's only so much we can do.
We cannot force anyoneinto any situation.
But I really believe in themodeling of what we're hoping
people leading the work will doand people in an organization or
department, students, whatever,what we can like really engage
(33:39):
in and what the work can look
like.
I'm thinking about the peoplewho are like, okay, so I heard
your example, what are sometangible things that I can be
thinking about when leadingthis work in any capacity?
What can I be doing?
And I should have said thisup front and I think I did,
but I also want to be clearthat if you are listening to
(34:02):
this and you're not someonewho is formally leading DEI
efforts, this conversation canreally help you understand the
experiences of people who are.
Because it's not, I don't feellike this is a regular job
that people can understand.
The job descriptions areso different and it just
(34:24):
holds a lot that is notwidely understood yet.
And so understanding theexperiences of people
leading this work can helpyou support those people,
can help you understand whatyou might be experiencing
instead of looking to, toanother person as for a reason
why things aren't going well.
It can hopefully help you pauseand see what you're missing.
(34:48):
So there's just, there'sa lot in it for people.
And to go back, what arethe things that we can share
with those leading efforts?
Definitely.
Yeah, I think if there'snothing else that you take
away from this work, it'sthat don't do it alone.
Like this work, thisis not a solo venture.
(35:11):
And when I say that, I mean thatdefinitely have someone that
you are checking in with, evenif it's just to have, someone
to, to share the emotions withyou, because you going into this
work, going into these spaces,I want to say, that I, and this
(35:31):
is me speaking personally, andI would love to hear your input
on it too, Charmaine, every DEIexperience that I have had, has
had some level of emotionalityto it that I know, early in my
journey, I was not anticipatingthe level of emotionality that
came with these discussionsand these experiences.
(35:52):
Standing where I am now, I comein prepared for it and then am
surprised if it doesn't happen.
So tangible, like I definitelythink that for yourself as
someone engaging in the workaround the work, supporting
someone who's engaging in thework, knowing that there's
(36:14):
a level of emotional support
that you willeither need/provide.
And that looks like listening.
That looks like being curiousabout, asking questions to
help process an experience thatsomebody has just led, or that
(36:35):
you have just participated in,so that you are, fully clear
on what you were feeling.
asking questions about, whatfeelings came up for you.
Why do you think you felt that?
Where could that be coming from?
How does that pertain to yourown personal journey of growth?
Your own personal experiences,processing through that, coming
(36:58):
up with questions, like yousaid, for when you are going
back into and processingwith your organization,
students, (insert group),to help facilitate the
conversation even further.
Again, we've used the wordbefore, disarm, better
understand, model, modeling thatcuriosity, modeling that being
(37:23):
inclusive, like I'm not going toask something of you that I am
not going to do/ask of myself.
So those are acouple of tangibles.
And then, yeah, justwanted to hear your input.
Have you gone into any DEIexperiences that weren't, at
least at some level, emotional?
No, no, they always are.
I'm like, yeah, no- Thetangible thing that we can
(37:45):
do isn't necessarily specificto receiving feedback.
When you were talking about theemotionality of things, it made
me think about the importanceof whenever possible, and
I would really advocate forthis, the thinking about doing
of nothing or the downtimeas part of a workday and that
(38:06):
being negotiated as the work.
I am fortunate to have thatin every space that I am in.
My workday does not consistof meetings and working on
projects and just back toback things for eight hours.
My workdays includenecessary, mandatory time to
(38:29):
decompress, or whatever it is.
My days include theability to recharge.
Because if I don't, it'snot a good situation.
So there's that.
And then the other thing Iwas thinking about was, when
working, when leading the work,there's also opportunity to
(38:49):
negotiate upfront how you willhandle these points of feedback.
Now that doesn't mean thatyou're going to come up
with a plan and everyone'sgoing to do it perfectly.
But at least you'retalking about it upfront.
And that's not a thingthat people practice.
But it's like, hey, we'reabout to embark on something,
or we're going to continue toembark, or we're getting deeper,
(39:11):
whatever it is, wherever you'reat on your journey, there is
an opportunity to convene.
And actually talk about howyou will address these types
of situations together.
Like how will they work?
How can I give feedback in away that is helpful to you?
How can I receive feedback?
Or what is the best wayfor me to receive it?
What are my needs?
(39:32):
If I need to circle back to youand say something that might not
feel good, how can we do that?
How can we hold bothperspectives and narratives
and experiences as true?
to just Be on the same pagethat this is not going to be
one of those situations wherewe're just throwing feedback
at each other and people coursecorrect, just instantaneously.
(39:54):
There is a need to understandwhat's being said and
where it comes from.
And having that dialogue upfront at least communicates
that there is an understandingthat we will reach this
point and here's how we'd
like to do it.
What are you laughing at?
No, I just, it, it seemsso intuitive, but like you
(40:16):
said, it is rarely ever done.
Nobody likes to be surprised,especially when that surprise is
attached to negative emotions.
And as transparent and,forthcoming, and you've
mentioned it before, as muchas we can name and identify
up front for people, whichis what you were describing,
(40:38):
in the way of expectations,being really clear on what
we can anticipate, makes theexperience, I don't want to say
go better because it is tough.
It like, it just is tough andit doesn't feel great a lot.
But it prepares, itbetter prepares people.
(40:59):
To know that, okay, it'sgonna, cause it's one thing
to be like, this is hardwork and this is tough.
It's another thing to,to prepare people to be
like, okay, these arethe type of conversations
that we're going to have.
Yeah.
We are going tosolicit feedback.
We are going toprovide feedback.
Really laying out key componentsof the process and asking
(41:23):
people to reflect on how theywant to engage around those
different processes and lettingthem know how you engage around
those different processes.
So we're all like, you haveas much information as you
can give on the front end.
And then, because it inevitablywill happen, even if you
(41:46):
prepare people for theseconversations and you let them
know that feedback is coming,and it's not going to feel
nice- I always say that, I...
I don't know untilI'm in it, right?
And I don't know how I'm goingto respond until I'm in it.
And so then, inevitably,even if you prepare them.
You're going to get to a pointwhere it actually happens.
And everything that you'vesaid goes out the window for
(42:08):
everybody because we're in ourfeelings, and it don't feel
good, and we want out, and we,we want to self preserve, and
we want to, all of that stuff.
But at least you have ananchoring point to go back
to, to be like, remember whenwe had these conversations?
Okay, so this is whatI was describing.
We're going to sit with this.
(42:29):
Remember how you said youwanted to get engaged around it?
And, you know, you facilitatethe process that way.
Yeah.
Yes.
I love that.
That makes so, so much sense.
Yeah.
I'm trying to thinkof anything else.
The only other thing that,really comes to mind that is
more of just, an add on...
The conversation is thatwhen we give feedback to
(42:54):
each other, it is superhelpful to think about giving
behavior specific feedback.
It helps people, it helps us,really understand what it is
we're experiencing and whatit is that's causing this
experience, but it also helpsus communicate to the other
person, what it is that'sbeing done to change course,
(43:16):
if,
that's necessary.
But oftentimes whenthe feedback comes,
it comes with, vagueness.
It comes with maybe not afully processed internal
understanding of the feedback.
It just didn't make usfeel good, so I want to
share it didn't make mefeel good, so change it.
But, if I, sat andhad to come up with
(43:37):
behavior specific reasonsattached to the feedback,
it's going to make me pause andslow down and get very clear.
And it's going tomake me be clear.
So when you were talkingabout, I don't remember what
the word you said, but Iwas thinking about clarity
and we don't do that enough,the behavior specific.
So when I say behaviorspecific, I mean, what is
the action that's taking place?
(43:59):
What is the behavior that yousee someone engaging in that's
attached to the feedback.
So it's like when I'm in ameeting and you interrupt me
while I'm speaking, or whenwe are talking, you talk
down to me and you talk downto me when you say these
(44:20):
particular words, these arewhat these words mean to me.
Then it's very clear whatwe're talking about, opposed
to something that peoplecan't like really hold on
to.
So that kind of gets lost,but I think that we should
lift up doing that more.
If we could be super clear,like you're doing these
things, and this is howit's being experienced.
(44:43):
That'd be so helpful.
I absolutely agree, and Ithink that you're right.
In DEI work, we live in theterms and the ambiguity.
And I think, it's like beingas specific as possible.
And, and it transcending,bringing people with different
experiences and differentunderstandings together
(45:05):
and then creating a sharedunderstanding, you're right,
takes very concrete, tangible,understandable, examples.
Which, I kind of talked aboutin the beginning, Being able
to get somebody to understandwhat you were trying to say.
Oftentimes, it takes thosespecific examples of, what
(45:27):
I experienced, the behavior,how it made me feel, to get
it to click and be like, oh.
That's what you meanwhen you tell me that,
like, microaggressionsoccur in the workplace.
Sometimes those things canbe hard to grasp for people
who don't experience themthe same way that you do.
(45:52):
And I think that's acrossthe board with anything.
We walk around with...
the notion that peoplewill just understand
things when we say them.
And I, you know, I'm a, Iwork with couples a lot.
And that is like a big part ofnavigating conflict in couples-
is getting them on the samepage about something that they
(46:12):
may have very well experiencedtogether, but like it hit
them completely differently.
And just getting themto sit down and be like,
ok, when you said this,
it hit me this way.
And, the partner takingthe time and the space and
wanting to, show that theyare engaged and be like, okay,
why did it hit you that way?
(46:34):
To open up space for, theother partner to be like,
this is what this word meansto me, or this is what this
behavior represents to me.
And it's that, that, thatinformation that's often
unsaid is very impactful andcan change the whole scenario.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
The last thing I'll say,and I just, I always have
this it's this and that.
(46:55):
I also feel like there's aresponsibility to say some
things that we experiencecan't always be...
Can't always be putinto, a neat box.
And that's okay, too.
Because I'm also thinking, I'mthinking about many situations
where I was giving feedback,and I'm like, it's so hard
to describe to a personwho might not understand.
If there was someone who hadsimilar lived experiences
(47:18):
as me, they would get it.
So some stuff youcan't quite do.
And that's okay.
I don't think that, I don'tthink that we're talking
about being behaviorspecific as some sort of
like blanket everybody do it.
If you don't, then thatdoesn't mean that whatever
you're experiencing is validbecause that's not true at all.
Some stuff is verynuanced and hard to
(47:39):
describe and that's okay.
But I think that this isjust a call to hold people
accountable that can.
If you are able to be behaviorspecific, because we avoid
doing that, then do that.
Don't default to being vaguebecause you want to avoid your
own internal exploration, oravoid being clear with whoever
(48:02):
you need to be clear with.
So there's that to thinkabout and balance in all of it
too.
I was gonna say, yeah, Ithink that, that speaks
to the processing thefeedback that's yours,
holding what's yours
Yeah, exactly.
um, and being okay withbeing uncomfortable.
As someone engaging in thiswork- Yeah, it, it gets
(48:22):
uncomfortable, not justfor the people that you are
facilitating this work for.
You as well.
And that, that's okay.
Yeah.
yes.
All right.
Well, I think this, is thereanything else we want to say on
this topic before we wrap up?
Again, I love this work.
I second what you said.
(48:45):
This work requires self care.
If you are engaging aroundthis work, please, please,
please take care of yourself.
Whatever thatlooks like for you.
Advocate for the space for thepeople engaging in the work
with you to be able to takecare of themselves because it
(49:05):
often doesn't go well if likeyou're doing these things,
it's emotionally chargedand then immediately after
we're asking people to bepresent and go back to work.
We didn't justhave an emotionally
charged conversation.
So definitely do that.
But, other than that, Ithink it was a good convo
and I do hope that peopleget some takeaways from it.
(49:28):
I'm certain.
Bola, thank you so muchfor being here with me and
really getting into this.
To me, there were sometangible takeaways, like even
being able to just stop andhave this conversation with
you made me get very clearabout what specifically I
can do on a regular basis.
I think I just do thingsthat I feel in a moment.
(49:50):
But this was definitely like,okay, these are real experiences
that happen all the time.
There are these points.
There is an importance for usto have people, real people who
are gonna have the capacity orability to see all the things.
There's just so many likenuggets in here and I really
appreciate you for joining.
(50:12):
Now if people want toget in contact with you,
how can they do that?
What's the best way?
Best way is to either findmy profile on LinkedIn,
so that's Bola Ruff.
And I have, myThriveWorks, website also.
Yep, if you're licensed inNorth Carolina, so if you're
looking for a marriage andfamily therapist, I got you..
(50:35):
All right, awesome.
I will leave your contactinfo in the description.
So if you're listening,please share this with others.
So that they can learn too.
And you can use it asdiscussion with people in
your network, supervisors,groups, teams, whatever
that looks like for you.
Know that you can visit mywebsite, livingunapologetically.
com to connect with me.
There's my social mediahandles are on there.
(50:56):
You can contact us directly.
There's freebies availableto you to help you
deepen your practice andepisodes for the series.
And you can have accessto buy my book on there,
Bias-Conscious Leadership: A Framework for Leading with (51:07):
undefined
Action and Accountability.
Other than that, thank youso much for listening, and I
hope to connect with you soon.
Until next time, bye!
Maybe I just missed something.
(00:01):
So I went back and I waslooking at recordings,
like, no, no, this isbeing said in various ways.
And in my reach back outas thoughtfully as I could.
We couldn't, we were not able toreach a point of understanding.
That was my first timewith an agency where we
(00:22):
both decided to part ways.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Living Out Loud Discussion
Series, where we are unpackingreal life scenarios and
issues in our interactionsand professional settings,
or those places where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
And that means we aretalking about the things
that typically go unsaid.
(00:42):
The goal of every episode isto reveal the layers and the
nuances in our interactions sothat we can learn about them
as a community that cares aboutdiversity, equity, inclusion.
I am your host, Charmaine Utz.
Relational DEI Expert andtoday we're talking about
flowing with feedback whenyou are leading DEI efforts.
(01:03):
I want to be clear that thethings that I say in this
discussion series and allof the episodes, they are
my own opinions, and not asa representative of any of
the agencies by which I'memployed or contracted with.
(01:31):
This topic is not justapplicable to people
who are in DEI roles.
It matters if youare even experiencing
different DEI efforts.
So in any way, shape, orform, if you are connected
to DEI, even if you arereceiving a service, then
this episode is for you.
Now my guest fortoday is Bola Ruff.
Bola, thank you somuch for being here.
(01:53):
Thank you for having me.
Yes.
Yes.
So Bola is, she's been oneof my friends for several
years, like several years,in many different capacities.
What I'm going to do firstis formally introduce you
and then chime in with theways that you and I are
connected and then we will getstarted into the discussion.
(02:13):
As a British born Nigerianwoman raised in the U.
S., Bola resonates with howthe dimensions of gender,
race, and culture canimpact family, work, and
navigating every life issues.
She is a former militaryspouse, a wife, a sister,
a daughter, and an aunt.
She completed her Master ofMarriage and Family Therapy,
Counseling at CapellaUniversity and currently works
(02:35):
as a clinical preceptor andtherapist for ThriveWorks.
In her spare time, Bola lovesto travel, take walks, and
enjoys her family and friends.
Now, what's really interestingis that when I asked Bola to
submit her bio, I was like, oh,there's a lot of stuff missing.
In particular, the thingsthat she and I have done
together.
And I was like, you havedone a lot of things.
(02:58):
You have been involvedin the most...
Painful, difficult,challenging moments of my
personal, professional career.
You have been like my confidant,my strategic partner, someone
who was helping me build mybusiness from the ground up.
You've been my clinicalconsultant expert.
You've been a consultantwith Living Unapologetically
(03:21):
and an administrator.
And I was like, hey, where'sthe- Where is that at?
So just had to talkabout that out loud.
I was going to say, so Itried to keep it short and
sweet, because if you giveme the space and the time, I
will write a whole narrative.
So I try to keep itpresent and short.
And I figured that a lot ofmy background and kind of the
(03:41):
ways that we intersect andwe've done this work would
come out in this conversation.
So I wasn't too worried about
All right.
That makes sense.
So maybe I was feeling left out.
I was like, no, becauseBola's been doing a lot of
stuff and it is not up in
here.
So thank you so muchfor joining again.
Yeah.
So today's topic again,flow of feedback when you
are leading DEI efforts.
(04:03):
the first thing I wantedto actually talk about is
something that I feel like Icould talk about with anyone
who really gets the work.
And it is this constantstate of hearing feedback.
It's like the essence ofleading these types of efforts.
And so I just wanted to beclear, with our audience,
like when we say feedbackfrom this lens, what are
(04:25):
we really talking about?
And so let's just start thereso we can all be on the same
page.
Okay, that sounds likea great place to start.
Yeah, this work for anyonewho hasn't been in it
and for everyone who has,they can probably relate.
This work is beyond personalbecause it does talk all, it
(04:47):
speaks a lot to who we areas people and what we value
and so oftentimes when weare getting into these topics
and, discussing these things,feedback, being able to hear
the feedback that people aregiving, whether it be on our,
how we are delivering andengaging in the work or how
(05:09):
they are experiencing, it intheir DEI issues, it's really
important to be open andpresent to that information.
One, because it's going tobe helpful to be able to
navigate these conversationswith the people that
you're engaging with.
And then two, because it'simportant in your own personal,
(05:32):
growth journey and beingable to hear how people are
experiencing you and the thingsthat you are saying and to be
able to unpack what's yoursto unpack and then push back
slash give back what's not yoursand what's theirs to unpack.
yeah.
(05:53):
Yes, that all makesso much sense to me.
I often tell people thisjob is just like, I'm just
constantly hearing the stuffthat needs to be fixed.
It's often like the purpose,at least that's the purpose
at first for a very long time.
But even if agencies getto a place where things are
going really well, you stillhave to have these mechanisms
(06:15):
to be hearing feedback.
And you're right, it'swhat's happening in an org.
But then you also end uphearing feedback about you,
how you're doing things andways that you can make changes.
And it's, it feels prettyconstant and it's a thing.
It's totally a
thing.
It is a real thing.
And I think it's important,to highlight what you said
(06:36):
in that, this process isnot linear and it doesn't
have a start and a stop.
I think people come into thiswork thinking, okay, I'm going
to do this one thing, or I'mgoing to teach this one concept
and it's done and it's not.
It's very cyclical.
It's very feedback loopthat continues to move
(06:58):
you in a direction thathopefully, embodies growth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is one of those thingswhere it's you kind of have
to build the muscle for it,cause it doesn't really go
away and the need does stay.
And I also wanted to talk alittle bit about like, why this
discussion is applicable topeople beyond those in the role.
(07:22):
I'm hoping people in this role,this can at least be validating.
But also, what are the ways thatyou can, build that muscle or
get the support that you need?
Like, how do you navigatethis, inevitable place?
But if you're not someonethat's leading the work-
when I say leading the workthat could mean maybe someone
who's hired in a DEI position.
(07:42):
That could mean leadersin organizations.
It can mean maybe faculty orstaff and higher education.
It can mean DEIcommittees or task forces.
There are different people.
moving the work forward.
These types of experiencesthat we're talking
about
are felt by anybody leading the
(08:03):
work.
Yes.
Anybody, and I think that Istand in a place where, I really
fully understand that because,as you had mentioned in my bio,
my work with an advocacy in,diversity and inclusion, has
extended as far back as, middleschool and high school for me.
And you're right, you neverknow the type, the people
(08:28):
engaging with the work andlike the positions that
they find themselves in.
I know that it is very on trendright now for agencies to have
DEI councils and committees.
I am actually part of theDEI Committee at ThriveWorks.
It was just started.
(08:49):
I'm super excited to be engagedin that work and our committee.
The people involved and engagedspan all types of walks of
life experiences, and aredoing this, strictly volunteer
basis, not being paid becausethe work means so much to them.
Yeah, you're right.
It spans.
Congrats on the newwork that's starting.
(09:10):
I am sure that you have a lotof experience to contribute
to that particular journey.
Now let's get into I want tojust, hone in because, feedback
could be, like, a really big
thing.
But the feedback thatI'm, really curious
about is this, inevitableplace that organizations
(09:34):
or groups or councils ordepartments- that there's this
inevitable place that peopleleading the work can reach.
There's this inevitable placewhere there's a lot of great
work being done, but thenthere appears to be this
time where it starts to bereally, really difficult.
(09:55):
And those leading the work,hear a lot of feedback about
how they are approaching thework or stewarding the work.
It tends to be less aboutthis is what our organization
or department or groupwants to do and hones in on
those leading the efforts.
(10:16):
And I wanted to talk aboutthat because it's just
fascinating to me how it happenslike over and over again.
It's something that Ihave to talk up front
about with the people that wework with and consult with.
I'm like this is gonna be athing, so let's talk about
it now and we'll address it.
But let's just set up shophere and talk about that.
(10:38):
What that's and I know you'veexperienced that with me.
on a few occasions.
So yeah.
What do you think?
I think that ties back into whatI was speaking about earlier
where this work is so personaland, sometimes that lends
itself to, us using personalexperiences to describe the
(10:59):
work or engaging on a personallevel about experiences we've
had, that pertain to the topic.
and then sometimes, this isjust my personal opinion.
It doesn't come from anywherescientific or written down.
I think the way that peopleare able to digest the
(11:19):
information related to DEIis finding examples of it in
real life and in real time.
And unfortunately, when it comesto being in organizations that
have a lot of characteristicsthat are counter to inclusivity
and diversity, people startto pick up on where they
(11:41):
see the absence of the DEIwork that we are discussing.
And, yeah, in an effortto connect and understand,
they start to see where itisn't, and they start to
see where people are missingthe mark in being inclusive
and promoting diversity,and it turns personal,
(12:06):
sometimes, unknowingly.
Yeah, no, it makesa lot of sense.
It makes a lot of sensebecause I find myself
in that situation a lot.
It's like incredibly challengingbecause when you were
talking about people noticethe absence of things, that
really did something to mebecause, that is what happens.
It's not the only thingthat happens, but it's one
(12:27):
of the things that happenswhen people are scrambling.
They, don't like the feeling,or maybe there's not this,
progress, or they're evengetting, other feedback around,
like, how it's not working.
People start to lookmaybe outwards, "What
are other people doing?"
And "I read this article," and,"we're not doing," there's, an
absence that's, highlighted.
And then honing in on thoseleading- why aren't you,
(12:48):
or if you would have done,or we didn't like this
feeling, so can you then do.
And sometimes it's yeah,I want to encourage this
dialogue and encourage thechallenge, but then can we,
stay here a little bit longer?
Or is it just supposed to be,like, we share the feedback and
(13:09):
we're supposed to just, changehow we do things right away?
Do you remember, I remember, acouple situations where I had
to speak with you multiple timesabout, it was one situation and
we had to talk regularly becauseI was like, I can't, is it me?
Wait, can you help me?
I want to entertainthis, but is it
(13:30):
me?
Yeah.
And I think the other partthat you're bringing up and
that you're touching on ispeople coming into this work
sometimes don't, they haven'thad the experience of sitting
with discomfort and/or havingdifficult conversations.
And so coming from a clinicallens and using clinical
(13:53):
terms, when people are feelingvulnerable, they do things to
distract and, protect theiremotional ego, and that can
take the form of, sometimesit's playing the blame game.
Sometimes it's, pointingat other things.
Sometimes it's like graspingat straws for solutions.
(14:13):
So I think that coming at itfrom like a clinical place,
when people are on this journeyand they, one, haven't had
experiences like this before,or two, don't have the coping
mechanisms or the self insightor, have done any kind of
personal work, they don'thave the skills to manage the
(14:35):
feelings that come up in thiswork in these conversations.
And yeah.
I am so glad that youbrought that up because
I, I feel fortunate to besurrounded by clinical people.
It is a lot of like myorientation and I do the
work with clinical people.
(14:55):
And I feel like when we sayclinical in a DEI space,
people just attribute itto therapy or work that
doesn't necessarily fit in.
And I'm like, no, y'all Idon't even know how to do
this and lead this workwithout the clinical aspect.
And the clinicalaspect is really what
you're talking about.
(15:15):
It's not- Hey, everybody needstherapy, or you're responsible
for being a therapist or as amanager supervisor, responsible
for being a therapist.
That's not it at all.
But there is this internalability that we have,
or point of which wecan only take so much.
And if we don't have access tothat depth or ability to really
(15:37):
be in discomfort, the abilityto be in challenging situations
or to access the vulnerabilityto do it, then it does impact
how far the work can go.
So I just, I reallyappreciate you saying that.
I really want to do a wholeepisode on that because I think
the skillset to really leadthis work, should include an
(16:01):
ability to facilitate and leadwith- I don't even like calling
it soft skills because I keepsaying clinical, but that's
because my orientation, I don'tknow what else to call it.
And like it, we need to,be able to lead people
and lean into that sothey can see what they're
experiencing and how thatmight be getting in the way.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think I, and this mightjust be, like you said, my
(16:25):
orientation and my lens andthat I'm surrounded by it, I
feel like the tides are shiftingin people's understanding of-
even things like mindfulness.
There's a growing understandingthat being able to be present
in the moment and pay attentionto what's happening in your
body and listen to the signalsthat your body is sending you
(16:47):
and then know how to managethose signals is something
that we're all starting torecognize and understand.
And I think that is a smallexample of things that
is important for peopleengaging in this work
to be able to recognizeand, do and facilitate.
Because when we aretalking about things
(17:09):
like characteristicsof white supremacy.
That word supremacyis, so charged.
And things happen in people'sbodies when they hear that
word that, we need to beable to speak to and we need
to be able to identify andwe need to be able to help
regulate, in the moment.
Absolutely.
No, I've, I am thinkingabout several situations
(17:33):
in which I have had to workwith leaders in very intense
moments to help them regulate.
And then after that beinglike, we need to get you at
a place where you're able toself regulate yourself because
this process that you're goingthrough will continue to happen.
(17:54):
You will continue to hearfeedback that's what you want.
You want people to be ableto share openly with you.
And it's not goingto always feel good.
I don't even likehearing feedback as
a leader of the work.
I don't.
It's, it's that, initial,oh no, I want to be doing
it all right, but I'm not.
You got to get over it.
But the ability to selfregulate is so important
(18:15):
because if you can't, if thefeedback can't even get inside
and go anywhere afterwards,
it's really not.
It's really hard to do anychange from there internally,
let alone, outside of if youare in charge of leading an
organization or running it orleading these types of efforts.
Yeah, I think it's so funnybecause it's like when we think
(18:39):
about a lot of organizationsand business setups, it's
common practice to havequarterly or annual reviews
of performance for employeeswhere they are supposed to sit
and receive feedback, whetherit be good or bad, and take
it and respond to it in a waythat, is polite and palatable.
(19:02):
And then go and make changesand improve from what
feedback that they were given.
And I think that in an equitablespace, being viewed as someone
who is coming in either asan expert or a leader or,
a facilitator of a process,modeling what is often asked
(19:24):
of the people who are engagingin this work with you is
go like leaps and bounds.
yeah.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
I'm just like nodding my headlike, yes, that is so true.
I feel like it's going to go ona tangent, but I just want to
validate what you're saying thatthere is often an expectation
of, employees in an organizationor even like students, or for
(19:49):
non- leadership level staff tohave a capacity to do something
and to engage in a practicethat those who have positions
that hold more power andprivilege really struggle with.
So it's really interestingto hear the different levels
that we, the standardsthat we hold people to.
(20:10):
It was just interesting,and my mind is going to
go in a bunch of differentplaces, so I'm going to just
stay, right here where we're
at,
Content for another day.
Right?
I want to talk about how,what a good process is
when someone leading theseefforts hears feedback.
Because we're talking a lotabout why it makes sense to
(20:31):
not just take the feedbackand, make it seem like
it's all your fault per
se,
but there's just, it's layered.
So if we can just really settlein there and just explore
it, that would be awesome.
Definitely.
And there's somethingthat comes to mind.
And we have not talkedabout this ahead of time.
if I just gave you someindicators of a situation,
I feel like you would knowwhat I'm talking about.
(20:53):
Cause it was a couple ofyears ago and it was that
situation where, we kepthearing feedback and I kept
reaching out to you to process,
is this real?
Do you remember what I'm
talking
Yeah, I do.
Cause I, we had moments.
Yeah, that we wouldgo back and forth.
And have in depth conversations.
(21:13):
And I think that is a good-when talking about the process
and being a person who'sdriving the work forward,
what, you can do when youare hearing feedback, holding
feedback, and then trying tofigure out what to do with it.
I think a big part of it is inthe moment when you're receiving
(21:34):
the feedback, being present, notnecessarily having to respond to
it or having a response for it.
It is, perfectly okay to bein that space and in that
moment and be like, I hearwhat you're saying and I
am, I'm going to hold that.
And I'm going to come back, tothis, and just be okay with that
(21:56):
and then sit with that feedback.
And I think also what you'rereferencing is it's important to
have partners in this process,whether it's one sounding
board, whether it's severalsounding boards, to be able to,
process through the information,because it's a lot to hold.
Oh my gosh.
(22:16):
Yes, you, in particular, havebeen so skilled at helping
unpack layers, helping slowdown and see what is before you.
I remember each time, in amoment, I do what you're saying.
even if it's hard, it tookcourage, effort, whatever
(22:37):
it was, someone gavefeedback, let me hold it.
Like, I got the feedback.
Sometimes- depending on whatit is, I can say something in
a moment, but you're right.
Sometimes it's like, let melook a little deeper and,
give a thoughtful response.
Or if it's an email orsomething like that, you
still want to take thetime to chat with someone.
But you and I connected.
I'm like, all right,I got this feedback.
(22:59):
It made me feel whateverthe things I felt, I just
needed to say all of them.
I didn't like it or it upsetme or it made me really
sad or whatever it was-you held all the emotions.
And oftentimes, if I'm beinghonest, I don't like it, I
don't like hearing feedback, butit's so important to hear it.
And then I would ask, sometimes,there might be pieces of it
(23:21):
that, really make sense to me.
This is how I'm processing this.
And I can actually seeme doing XYZ in this way.
Does that make sense to you?
Have you seen that?
And you're very honest.
I think that part of havingsomeone to talk to, or people
to talk to, is that youchoose people who will tell
you, yes, that is yours.
Or no, not that.
(23:42):
Having someonewho will tell you.
And then there are otherthings where I'm like, but
this over here, like theseparts of the feedback, they
don't seem right to me.
It doesn't.
And you just were sogood at providing the
context I couldn't see.
When you're someone whohears feedback, it's harder
to see all the pieces.
(24:03):
For me, it's really hardto see all the pieces.
So you were like, let'slook at where this place
is at on their journey.
What do we know aboutthese parts of the journey?
What do we knowabout these dynamics?
You provided this full picturethat was oh my gosh, this
makes so much sense that thiswould be coming up right now.
(24:25):
Yeah.
And again, you're making greatpoints that people in this
journey need to be aware of.
you often need to takea step back and look
at the bigger picture.
When it's like right herein front of your face,
this is all you see.
And oftentimes there'sa lot going on around.
People are bringing their ownexperiences, their own stories.
(24:48):
Again, I hate to keep harpingon it, but their own ways or
lack of ways to cope with theinformation that's coming out.
And that looks a myriadof ways, but it typically
feels chaotic and targeted.
so being able to have, like yousaid, somebody or a couple of
(25:08):
somebodies that one, you can.
Unpack everything, unpackthe entire experience with,
and then two, that is goingto give you honest feedback.
again, you're practicing thatvulnerability that you're
asking of people in the spacesthat you're going into, and
you're embodying the processof what it means to really
(25:32):
do DEI work on a personaland an organizational level.
so yeah, definitely.
Holding it, processing it,unpacking it, getting input
and feedback from, trusted,advisors or colleagues, whatever
you have, around you in yourcorner, really important.
(25:53):
Yeah.
I'm...
Also, really tapped into,once you do all of that,
then we gotta, come back.
There's the part, we might ownsome of it, and then there's
the part of, but this is, yoursto hold to, and the support
to come up with like how weapproach that is important.
(26:14):
And it really matters.
there's so manythings to consider.
Is it, is it a clientthat you're working with?
if it's a consulting clientor if it's leaders in an
organization, or if there's thisperceived or actual privilege
power over, how do you returnback with what is yours and
also what might not be yours?
Or maybe sometimesit's not yours.
(26:35):
how do you go back?
And I remember you and I hadconversations about coming
up with that messaging, gameplanning together, holding both
truths and also holding bothopportunities to grow from it.
And I know the messagingwas always wrapped in
really good questions.
Not necessarily Hey, didyou notice this, and this,
(26:55):
not throwing it back.
But here are some questionsthat came up for me or for
us that had us wondering whatelse might be contributing
to this experience.
And the questions usuallygetting people to think
about what else is there?
What might I have missed?
And it helps, create afurther dialogue instead of,
(27:16):
a pointing back and forth.
you take that.
No, I take, it's not about that.
It's, truly continuingthe conversation so that
both parties or whoeverelse is involved, but
everyone can, reallyunderstand all the pieces.
Because that is the, that'sthe real work too, it's not
(27:37):
just sharing feedback is apart of DEI work, but the
ability to engage in thesetypes of conversations, to have
a really good understandingof each other, and to make
changes so that we can betterinteract with each other is
really what it's all about.
And so as someone leading thework, it's really important to
me to model for people, whatto do in these situations,
(28:01):
because those situationsare applicable, everywhere.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I love that you highlightedmaintaining curiosity,
anytime you're going intoa situation that is highly
charged, being and stayingcurious puts people at ease
because you're in a place andyou're coming at it from a, I
(28:24):
truly want to understand yourexperience and how I contributed
to it or how I can, helpexpand upon it, process it.
and that is so disarming.
That is a, there's a comfortto that, to know that, the
person across from you or theperson that's facilitating
this work with you and it'sokay, I heard what you said.
(28:46):
Let me make sure Ifully understand.
I'm curious about, let'sget curious together
and turn it into aconversation like you said.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I like the waythat you say that.
I often tell people how tohave courageous conversations.
One of the first thingsis to name all the stuff.
(29:07):
Just what do we have before us?
It's uncomfortable.
this is how I'm feeling.
Just whatever I can doso people know that I'm
actually really joined onthis experience with them.
And it doesn't always feel good.
And then the other thingthat comes to my mind
is when that's the case.
While it might not alwaysfeel great in a moment, the
(29:27):
outcome is something to me thathas typically been something
that the people we couldall agree on, at least agree
on, this makes sense for us.
We can proceed, whichis what we really want.
We don't all have tohave a hundred percent
on the same pageness,
but we all know whathappened and we all agree
about how to move forward.
And that doesn't always happen.
(29:49):
I remember working witha different, agency and
we were getting a lot offeedback about what came out
of our, needs assessment.
And I don't know, I don't knowany place that has felt great
about the needs assessmentbecause there's wonderful things
that go on in organizations.
(30:10):
And then there's just thestruggle points and to see the
struggle points, it's reallyhard for leaders to sit with.
I understand.
However, I have experiencedon a couple of occasions
where leaders will notaccept what is being given to
them in a needs assessment.
(30:30):
And I had one really difficultone where I felt in the
presence of the leaders, whatI was being met with was maybe
we just missed something.
it wasn't just melooking at this data.
We had a team of peoplelooking at the video and
coding all of this stuffand hearing the narratives.
So, I just, I reallyfelt challenged because I
(30:52):
recalled all these momentsthat I facilitated and
all these meetings that wehad, getting to the data,
but they were so certain.
And they were certain formany reasons what they knew
about their organizationand what staff who
participated in it told them.
And I just, I felt letme do my due diligence.
Maybe I just missed something.
(31:12):
So I went back and I waslooking at recordings,
like, no, no, this isbeing said in various ways.
And in my reach back outas thoughtfully as I could.
We couldn't, we were not able toreach a point of understanding.
That was my first timewith an agency where we
(31:33):
both decided to part ways.
Now this was a long processthat we went through.
We were very committedto showing up and
having the conversation.
So it wasn't like, F you,I'll never come back.
But it was- you know what?
I'm standing onwhat I know is here.
I can understand that thisisn't what you're looking for.
And in their turn, they're thisisn't what we're looking for.
(31:53):
But thank you forwhat you've given us.
And we just parted ways.
But that was my firstwow, okay, we're just not
going to arrive there.
But there was nothing that Iwas able to say to get that
leadership team to, to believewhat their staff were saying.
There was nothing.
And it was fascinating.
(32:14):
And unfortunately,that is the case.
Again, everybody is enteringthis work at different
points on their journey.
Everybody has different,they're coming in with different
understandings of what DEIis and how they think that
it should operate in theirorganization or their school or
(32:34):
their, (insert location/group).
And when that is the case, youarticulated so beautifully,
it's a process of, feedback,unpacking, processing,
staying curious, and thenif you get to an impasse,
sometimes that's what it is.
(32:56):
And again, a big themethat keeps coming up in
our conversation today is,that being uncomfortable,
it isn't cut and dry.
This work can't get tied upin a pretty bow and handed
and it's, sometimes we getstuck and it really is they're
not at the point where theycan do the work, they don't
have the same understandingof the work as I do and,
that, that is what it is.
(33:17):
Yes.
That's true.
All we can really committo is the conversation
and
showing up and the modeling andthere's only so much we can do.
We cannot force anyoneinto any situation.
But I really believe in themodeling of what we're hoping
people leading the work will doand people in an organization or
department, students, whatever,what we can like really engage
(33:39):
in and what the work can look
like.
I'm thinking about the peoplewho are like, okay, so I heard
your example, what are sometangible things that I can be
thinking about when leadingthis work in any capacity?
What can I be doing?
And I should have said thisup front and I think I did,
but I also want to be clearthat if you are listening to
(34:02):
this and you're not someonewho is formally leading DEI
efforts, this conversation canreally help you understand the
experiences of people who are.
Because it's not, I don't feellike this is a regular job
that people can understand.
The job descriptions areso different and it just
(34:24):
holds a lot that is notwidely understood yet.
And so understanding theexperiences of people
leading this work can helpyou support those people,
can help you understand whatyou might be experiencing
instead of looking to, toanother person as for a reason
why things aren't going well.
It can hopefully help you pauseand see what you're missing.
(34:48):
So there's just, there'sa lot in it for people.
And to go back, what arethe things that we can share
with those leading efforts?
Definitely.
Yeah, I think if there'snothing else that you take
away from this work, it'sthat don't do it alone.
Like this work, thisis not a solo venture.
(35:11):
And when I say that, I mean thatdefinitely have someone that
you are checking in with, evenif it's just to have, someone
to, to share the emotions withyou, because you going into this
work, going into these spaces,I want to say, that I, and this
(35:31):
is me speaking personally, andI would love to hear your input
on it too, Charmaine, every DEIexperience that I have had, has
had some level of emotionalityto it that I know, early in my
journey, I was not anticipatingthe level of emotionality that
came with these discussionsand these experiences.
(35:52):
Standing where I am now, I comein prepared for it and then am
surprised if it doesn't happen.
So tangible, like I definitelythink that for yourself as
someone engaging in the workaround the work, supporting
someone who's engaging in thework, knowing that there's
(36:14):
a level of emotional support
that you willeither need/provide.
And that looks like listening.
That looks like being curiousabout, asking questions to
help process an experience thatsomebody has just led, or that
(36:35):
you have just participated in,so that you are, fully clear
on what you were feeling.
asking questions about, whatfeelings came up for you.
Why do you think you felt that?
Where could that be coming from?
How does that pertain to yourown personal journey of growth?
Your own personal experiences,processing through that, coming
(36:58):
up with questions, like yousaid, for when you are going
back into and processingwith your organization,
students, (insert group),to help facilitate the
conversation even further.
Again, we've used the wordbefore, disarm, better
understand, model, modeling thatcuriosity, modeling that being
(37:23):
inclusive, like I'm not going toask something of you that I am
not going to do/ask of myself.
So those are acouple of tangibles.
And then, yeah, justwanted to hear your input.
Have you gone into any DEIexperiences that weren't, at
least at some level, emotional?
No, no, they always are.
I'm like, yeah, no- Thetangible thing that we can
(37:45):
do isn't necessarily specificto receiving feedback.
When you were talking about theemotionality of things, it made
me think about the importanceof whenever possible, and
I would really advocate forthis, the thinking about doing
of nothing or the downtimeas part of a workday and that
(38:06):
being negotiated as the work.
I am fortunate to have thatin every space that I am in.
My workday does not consistof meetings and working on
projects and just back toback things for eight hours.
My workdays includenecessary, mandatory time to
(38:29):
decompress, or whatever it is.
My days include theability to recharge.
Because if I don't, it'snot a good situation.
So there's that.
And then the other thing Iwas thinking about was, when
working, when leading the work,there's also opportunity to
(38:49):
negotiate upfront how you willhandle these points of feedback.
Now that doesn't mean thatyou're going to come up
with a plan and everyone'sgoing to do it perfectly.
But at least you'retalking about it upfront.
And that's not a thingthat people practice.
But it's like, hey, we'reabout to embark on something,
or we're going to continue toembark, or we're getting deeper,
(39:11):
whatever it is, wherever you'reat on your journey, there is
an opportunity to convene.
And actually talk about howyou will address these types
of situations together.
Like how will they work?
How can I give feedback in away that is helpful to you?
How can I receive feedback?
Or what is the best wayfor me to receive it?
What are my needs?
(39:32):
If I need to circle back to youand say something that might not
feel good, how can we do that?
How can we hold bothperspectives and narratives
and experiences as true?
to just Be on the same pagethat this is not going to be
one of those situations wherewe're just throwing feedback
at each other and people coursecorrect, just instantaneously.
(39:54):
There is a need to understandwhat's being said and
where it comes from.
And having that dialogue upfront at least communicates
that there is an understandingthat we will reach this
point and here's how we'd
like to do it.
What are you laughing at?
No, I just, it, it seemsso intuitive, but like you
(40:16):
said, it is rarely ever done.
Nobody likes to be surprised,especially when that surprise is
attached to negative emotions.
And as transparent and,forthcoming, and you've
mentioned it before, as muchas we can name and identify
up front for people, whichis what you were describing,
(40:38):
in the way of expectations,being really clear on what
we can anticipate, makes theexperience, I don't want to say
go better because it is tough.
It like, it just is tough andit doesn't feel great a lot.
But it prepares, itbetter prepares people.
(40:59):
To know that, okay, it'sgonna, cause it's one thing
to be like, this is hardwork and this is tough.
It's another thing to,to prepare people to be
like, okay, these arethe type of conversations
that we're going to have.
Yeah.
We are going tosolicit feedback.
We are going toprovide feedback.
Really laying out key componentsof the process and asking
(41:23):
people to reflect on how theywant to engage around those
different processes and lettingthem know how you engage around
those different processes.
So we're all like, you haveas much information as you
can give on the front end.
And then, because it inevitablywill happen, even if you
(41:46):
prepare people for theseconversations and you let them
know that feedback is coming,and it's not going to feel
nice- I always say that, I...
I don't know untilI'm in it, right?
And I don't know how I'm goingto respond until I'm in it.
And so then, inevitably,even if you prepare them.
You're going to get to a pointwhere it actually happens.
And everything that you'vesaid goes out the window for
(42:08):
everybody because we're in ourfeelings, and it don't feel
good, and we want out, and we,we want to self preserve, and
we want to, all of that stuff.
But at least you have ananchoring point to go back
to, to be like, remember whenwe had these conversations?
Okay, so this is whatI was describing.
We're going to sit with this.
(42:29):
Remember how you said youwanted to get engaged around it?
And, you know, you facilitatethe process that way.
Yeah.
Yes.
I love that.
That makes so, so much sense.
Yeah.
I'm trying to thinkof anything else.
The only other thing that,really comes to mind that is
more of just, an add on...
The conversation is thatwhen we give feedback to
(42:54):
each other, it is superhelpful to think about giving
behavior specific feedback.
It helps people, it helps us,really understand what it is
we're experiencing and whatit is that's causing this
experience, but it also helpsus communicate to the other
person, what it is that'sbeing done to change course,
(43:16):
if,
that's necessary.
But oftentimes whenthe feedback comes,
it comes with, vagueness.
It comes with maybe not afully processed internal
understanding of the feedback.
It just didn't make usfeel good, so I want to
share it didn't make mefeel good, so change it.
But, if I, sat andhad to come up with
(43:37):
behavior specific reasonsattached to the feedback,
it's going to make me pause andslow down and get very clear.
And it's going tomake me be clear.
So when you were talkingabout, I don't remember what
the word you said, but Iwas thinking about clarity
and we don't do that enough,the behavior specific.
So when I say behaviorspecific, I mean, what is
the action that's taking place?
(43:59):
What is the behavior that yousee someone engaging in that's
attached to the feedback.
So it's like when I'm in ameeting and you interrupt me
while I'm speaking, or whenwe are talking, you talk
down to me and you talk downto me when you say these
(44:20):
particular words, these arewhat these words mean to me.
Then it's very clear whatwe're talking about, opposed
to something that peoplecan't like really hold on
to.
So that kind of gets lost,but I think that we should
lift up doing that more.
If we could be super clear,like you're doing these
things, and this is howit's being experienced.
(44:43):
That'd be so helpful.
I absolutely agree, and Ithink that you're right.
In DEI work, we live in theterms and the ambiguity.
And I think, it's like beingas specific as possible.
And, and it transcending,bringing people with different
experiences and differentunderstandings together
(45:05):
and then creating a sharedunderstanding, you're right,
takes very concrete, tangible,understandable, examples.
Which, I kind of talked aboutin the beginning, Being able
to get somebody to understandwhat you were trying to say.
Oftentimes, it takes thosespecific examples of, what
(45:27):
I experienced, the behavior,how it made me feel, to get
it to click and be like, oh.
That's what you meanwhen you tell me that,
like, microaggressionsoccur in the workplace.
Sometimes those things canbe hard to grasp for people
who don't experience themthe same way that you do.
(45:52):
And I think that's acrossthe board with anything.
We walk around with...
the notion that peoplewill just understand
things when we say them.
And I, you know, I'm a, Iwork with couples a lot.
And that is like a big part ofnavigating conflict in couples-
is getting them on the samepage about something that they
(46:12):
may have very well experiencedtogether, but like it hit
them completely differently.
And just getting themto sit down and be like,
ok, when you said this,
it hit me this way.
And, the partner takingthe time and the space and
wanting to, show that theyare engaged and be like, okay,
why did it hit you that way?
(46:34):
To open up space for, theother partner to be like,
this is what this word meansto me, or this is what this
behavior represents to me.
And it's that, that, thatinformation that's often
unsaid is very impactful andcan change the whole scenario.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
The last thing I'll say,and I just, I always have
this it's this and that.
(46:55):
I also feel like there's aresponsibility to say some
things that we experiencecan't always be...
Can't always be putinto, a neat box.
And that's okay, too.
Because I'm also thinking, I'mthinking about many situations
where I was giving feedback,and I'm like, it's so hard
to describe to a personwho might not understand.
If there was someone who hadsimilar lived experiences
(47:18):
as me, they would get it.
So some stuff youcan't quite do.
And that's okay.
I don't think that, I don'tthink that we're talking
about being behaviorspecific as some sort of
like blanket everybody do it.
If you don't, then thatdoesn't mean that whatever
you're experiencing is validbecause that's not true at all.
Some stuff is verynuanced and hard to
(47:39):
describe and that's okay.
But I think that this isjust a call to hold people
accountable that can.
If you are able to be behaviorspecific, because we avoid
doing that, then do that.
Don't default to being vaguebecause you want to avoid your
own internal exploration, oravoid being clear with whoever
(48:02):
you need to be clear with.
So there's that to thinkabout and balance in all of it
too.
I was gonna say, yeah, Ithink that, that speaks
to the processing thefeedback that's yours,
holding what's yours
Yeah, exactly.
um, and being okay withbeing uncomfortable.
As someone engaging in thiswork- Yeah, it, it gets
(48:22):
uncomfortable, not justfor the people that you are
facilitating this work for.
You as well.
And that, that's okay.
Yeah.
yes.
All right.
Well, I think this, is thereanything else we want to say on
this topic before we wrap up?
Again, I love this work.
I second what you said.
(48:45):
This work requires self care.
If you are engaging aroundthis work, please, please,
please take care of yourself.
Whatever thatlooks like for you.
Advocate for the space for thepeople engaging in the work
with you to be able to takecare of themselves because it
(49:05):
often doesn't go well if likeyou're doing these things,
it's emotionally chargedand then immediately after
we're asking people to bepresent and go back to work.
We didn't justhave an emotionally
charged conversation.
So definitely do that.
But, other than that, Ithink it was a good convo
and I do hope that peopleget some takeaways from it.
(49:28):
I'm certain.
Bola, thank you so muchfor being here with me and
really getting into this.
To me, there were sometangible takeaways, like even
being able to just stop andhave this conversation with
you made me get very clearabout what specifically I
can do on a regular basis.
I think I just do thingsthat I feel in a moment.
(49:50):
But this was definitely like,okay, these are real experiences
that happen all the time.
There are these points.
There is an importance for usto have people, real people who
are gonna have the capacity orability to see all the things.
There's just so many likenuggets in here and I really
appreciate you for joining.
(50:12):
Now if people want toget in contact with you,
how can they do that?
What's the best way?
Best way is to either findmy profile on LinkedIn,
so that's Bola Ruff.
And I have, myThriveWorks, website also.
Yep, if you're licensed inNorth Carolina, so if you're
looking for a marriage andfamily therapist, I got you..
(50:35):
All right, awesome.
I will leave your contactinfo in the description.
So if you're listening,please share this with others.
So that they can learn too.
And you can use it asdiscussion with people in
your network, supervisors,groups, teams, whatever
that looks like for you.
Know that you can visit mywebsite, livingunapologetically.
com to connect with me.
There's my social mediahandles are on there.
(50:56):
You can contact us directly.
There's freebies availableto you to help you
deepen your practice andepisodes for the series.
And you can have accessto buy my book on there,
Bias-Conscious Leadership: A Framework for Leading with (51:07):
undefined
Action and Accountability.
Other than that, thank youso much for listening, and I
hope to connect with you soon.
Until next time, bye!
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