February 6, 2024 • 52 mins
This episode of the Living Out Loud Discussion Series features an insightful conversation on diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) with Allen Lipscomb, an Associate Professor, licensed clinical social worker, and DEI practitioner. Our discussion emphasizes the value of understanding and learning to navigate varied interpersonal interactions in professional settings. Allen sheds light on his work and research in this area, particularly in organizations, and weaves in his experiences studying communities targeting for marginalization, mental health, and systemic racism. The conversation revolves around understanding oneself, embracing imperfections, handling reactivity, and building better interpersonal relationships. Allen also shares a practical technique called the PAUSE method to tackle adverse responses at work and advocates for starting DEI efforts from an individual level.
Our Guest
Allen E. Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW is an Associate Professor, Associate Chair, Director of MSW Online Program; as well as Director of Minority Male Mentoring (M3) and Student Success Allies (SSA) program at California State University Northridge in the Department of Social Work. Dr. Lipscomb is a clinical psychologist with the highest degree earned and a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in the State of California. In addition, Dr. Lipscomb studied diversity and inclusion practices within organizations through Cornell University, earning a certification from the School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell. In 2022, Dr. Lipscomb earned a certification in Executive Public Leadership within organizations at Harvard University in the Kennedy School of Executive Education.
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To get in touch with Allen Lipscomb, you can contact him here:
-
IG: dr.alipscomb
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Twitter: alcombs101
Episode Chapters
00:00 Setting the Stage
01:37 Allen Lipscomb's Expertise and Approach
05:27 Importance of DEI in Various Roles
08:06 Interpersonal Reactions
13:49 The Role of Leadership in DEI
15:21 Recognizing Individual Experiences
18:04 Addressing the Challenges of DEI in Different Roles
20:09 Impact of DEI on Organizational Culture
29:41 Struggles of Supervision and Learning Differences
30:40 Power of Patience and Curiosity
31:35 Understanding Different Learning Styles
33:45 Self-Awareness and Reflection
38:02 Accountability and Accepting Mistakes
45:07 The Power of the PAUSE Method
49:46 Individual Accountability in Collective Progress
50:42 Closing Remarks and Contact Information
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is absolutely for you.
We're like, nope,I can't do that.
Nope, that doesn't make sense.
We start listening for theexceptions to the rule.
I tell people, listenfor the incorporation.
Don't listen for the exception.
Listen for how do Iincorporate this based on
my positions and roles.
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
(00:20):
And today we are talkingabout how to unpack our
responses to variousinterpersonal interactions.
And we're going to dothat with Lipscomb.
I'll introduce him in a moment.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up inour work with each other in
(00:41):
professional settings or inspaces where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in thoseinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts, views,things that are shared in
today's convo, those are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:19):
Now with me in thisspace is Allen Lipscomb.
Thank you so, somuch for being here.
We're going to havea great convo today.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
what's funny is I don'tknow you that well.
We only met one time.
We have a mutual friend.
And in talking about today'sconversation, you were just
(01:40):
sharing about your expertise.
There's lots of waysthat came to be.
And your approach tohow you do things in any
setting that you're in.
I feel is so valuableand important.
I literally, when I think aboutthis topic, which is a topic
that many people struggle with.
(02:00):
I'm already knowing I'm aboutto be learning some things.
So I'll be here talking toyou and then I'll probably
be taking some notes.
And I am so much lookingforward to the fact that
you'll be the one that'sshining a light on things for
the people in the audience.
So, thank you again.
Would you mind sharinganything about yourself?
(02:21):
Take space.
Introduce yourself.
Anything you want.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm always excited and honoredto be able to share space and
just share pearls of wisdom,things that are helpful in doing
this work in a more intentionaland critically conscious way.
So I am, an Associate Professorat Cal State Northridge in
(02:45):
the social work department.
I also serve as the directorof the online MSW program,
as well as the AssociateChair of the department.
I'm also the director ofour Minority Male Mentoring
Program and our StudentSuccess Allies Program.
In addition to that,I am a practitioner.
I'm a licensedclinical social worker.
(03:06):
I have my doctoratein psychology.
I went from doing directmicro practice, which I still
provide therapy in microspaces, but I started to notice
that there was a need to havethese conversations around
justice, equity, diversity,inclusion, and anti racism.
Beyond just on the microlevel, but what does this
look like in our interactions?
(03:27):
What does this look likewithin organizations and
agencies that I've been a partof or, have, worked with to
assist them in their DEI orJEDI efforts, if you will?
And so my research isinformed by my practice.
My practice very much soinforms the work that I
do in my research work.
So, I have three differentbuckets of research
(03:49):
that I operate in andout of, if you will.
So one is around looking atBlack male grief and trauma.
What are the ways inwhich Black men grieve?
And most importantly, whatare the ways in which we can
provide healing in clinicalspaces and therapeutic spaces
in a way that is affirming?
In a way that is honoringbase, in a way that is
(04:11):
anti oppressive, antiracist, and doesn't further
stigmatize and relegate theirexperiences to the margins.
So that's one of my researchtracks, if you will.
The second one is around antioppressive practices with
communities of color in general.
And what are some effectiveways to provide services.
(04:31):
Again, that's not stigmatizing.
That really honors people'sexperiences to help them along
their mental health journey.
And then finally, more relevantto our talk today is around
justice, equity, diversity,and inclusion and anti racism
work within organizations.
And again, like I mentioned amoment ago, I recognize that it
(04:51):
wasn't enough to just do thison a more micro interaction.
One on one.
It was like, how do we do this?
How do we retain people?
How do we recruit people?
How do we mentor folks,especially when we're looking
at communities of color?
What are we doing right?
And what aren't we doing right?
And then what are wegoing to do about it?
And so it all happens in theinteractions, I say, and so
(05:13):
having the research to support.
What I see in different spacesand what can be helpful to
really bolster and upliftDEI efforts in organization
is very important to me inthe work that I'm doing.
Even, when I was evenreferencing, like, introducing
you, I kept trying to, like,find a word and I still don't
(05:35):
even have the word, but inyour intro, I'm like, okay,
there's, you are a practitionerthat is research based too, but
you can even tell in the waythat you're describing things,
you are very practitionerbased, practice based.
When you're talking about thebuckets and I flow in and out
of them, you have a flow andknow that there's buckets, but
also the buckets have thingsin common and you don't enter
(05:59):
a space and this hat is onand you only use one bucket.
It just comes across ineverything that you say,
and I feel like it's soimportant to do that.
I remember when we werespeaking, I think I was
telling you that I haven'tcome across a whole lot of
people who have the varioustypes of expertise and then
(06:20):
are able to meld them togetherto do this type of work.
Oftentimes it's peoplewho are maybe heavily
clinical and people whoare heavily clinical aren't
necessarily in the DEI space.
And just so you know,in all of the episodes,
while I say DEI, DEI is anumbrella term to capture
many people's approaches,organizations approaches.
(06:41):
What approach you use, the termsyou use, all of those are valid.
It doesn't negate that at all.
And I just lost mytrain of thought.
But my point was,
Clinical.
Folks who stay
oh, thank you.
See, look, okay, see,you're clinical, there you
go, you were listening.
Yes, they're not necessarilyall up in the DEI space like
that, and then there's thisadministrative piece, and then
(07:03):
you have the research, like youhave a heavy research component.
And you use all ofit in every space.
I'm imagining, I'm not inthose individual sessions with
you, but I'm imagining allof that is with you in the
individual spaces with peopleall the way to org stuff.
So I just find that'sso helpful to have the
(07:25):
various types of expertise.
It makes for a much morewell rounded experience,
especially in this topic.
Cause people are complex peopleand then we live with our own
histories and we're in systems.
It's too hard to separate.
So anywho, I just.
I'm knowing I'mgoing to learn a lot.
(07:46):
Like I get so excited whenI meet people who have,
just a lifelong journey andthey've, they've put it all
together and are not afraidto put it all together.
I think what happens in thistype of industry is people go
down one track and fill theirbuckets in that one track.
(08:07):
I think it would be so helpfulto start with, what are we
talking about when we say thatpeople are having responses
to interpersonal interactions?
I even think that you mighthave used the term reactivities,
something about that there.
So what are we talkingabout when we say that?
Absolutely.
So I believe that folks whoare wanting to do this work
(08:32):
are doing it with the utmostbest intentions, right?
And I also think that if weare not learning and gaining
tools on our interpersonal dayto day interactions that we are
having with people, then we'renot going to really live this.
(08:55):
We're not going toreally walk this and
breathe this day to day.
You know, someone could belistening right now, or I could
be doing a training or a lecturein a class, and folks get it.
Theoretically, they get it.
Philosophically, they get it.
Of course, you're goingto have those naysayers.
I'm not talking tothose groups of folks.
I'm talking to those folks whoare wanting to address their
(09:15):
own ways of contributing toenvironments that are not so
inclusive and doesn't fosterequity and diversity and
inclusion and anti racism,like those folks, they get it.
But what they don't get isthose interpersonal day to
day interactions where biasesshow up and how when we are
(09:37):
being reactive, we are morelikely to play out our biases.
When we're not taking a momentto think through, recognizing
what our own stuff is before westart engaging, and that engage
can be having a conversation.
Engaging could be sendinga text message, engaging
could be sending an emailor responding to an email.
(09:58):
And so once we have thesemechanisms that helps us with
our interactions to reallyembrace DEI work, that's when
we start to see a shift, notonly on the more individual
kind of micro level, but alsoon the mezzo and macro level.
So how are we doing thisas a collective within
our program, division,organization, and how are we
(10:19):
doing this in the community?
Right.
And so that's what I mean by ourinteractions and interpersonal
skills is important, in orderto do this intrapersonally
within myself, like, what do Ineed to check and be aware of?
And then interpersonally as I'min engaging with other people?
So many like clinicalterms, even in that.
(10:42):
I might at times, ifsomething, if we need to
explain something a little bitmore, that might be helpful.
I do think it might behelpful to explain even
that relationship betweenintra interpersonal.
I'm honestly thinking about.
Do you know emotionfocused therapy?
Okay.
I love that.
Anywho, those twolittle circles.
(11:03):
And then there's thething in the middle.
I find that one, somethingyou said, that's so, so
true is people get it.
Like you can tell themthis is important.
This is how it works.
Understand it.
Got it.
And then in the momentto do it, there's a lot
of different responses.
But it doesn't, thelearning, the information.
It's really hard tolearn it and just do it.
(11:25):
So there's that whole internalintra piece that's going on
and having to sort that out.
And then there's what'shappening with other
people and what's theirs.
And then there's in themiddle, when they combine.
So there's like that part thatyou have your own situation
going on, and then dependingon who you're interacting with,
the context or whatever, thatactually could change what's
(11:46):
happening in the middle, sothat's important to know too.
So I don't know if there'sanything to add to that.
Just to help peopleunderstand those terms and
what we're actually talkingabout, would you have
anything to add to that?
Yeah.
just to reiterate andhighlight, it is really
starting with what's goingon with you internally.
(12:06):
Where does your thoughts gowhen things happen, when you
experience things, right?
What do I start to think about?
What story do I tellmyself about myself?
And better yet, what story doI tell myself about the other?
Like, what narrativesdo I create about that
experience, right?
What feelings doI have internally?
Am I uncomfortable?
(12:27):
Am I frustrated?
Am I angry?
Am I comfortable?
Am I happy?
Like, what is myinternal experience?
And that guides how Ithen interact with other
people outside of myself.
And so, like you said, that inbetween those circles, that's
where the real work happens.
(12:48):
That's where the real workhappens, in that in between.
And so my goal isto help people.
in that in between togain some tools to help
them practice this.
One of the things we do whenwe don't have the tools and
we're not engaging in thiswork is we go to our defaults.
Our defaults are theway in which we operate.
(13:12):
It's our day to day.
Where do I defaultwhen I'm angry?
Where do I defaultwhen I'm comfortable?
Where do I default whenI'm confused and don't
understand something?
We all have defaults.
Some of us, we, when we'reuncomfortable, we use
inappropriate humor or laughterbecause we're so uncomfortable.
Some of us when we'reuncomfortable, we try to
change the topic because it'sextremely uncomfortable, right?
(13:32):
Whatever that default is, thisgoes back to that intra- What's
happening intrapersonallywith me when I'm uncomfortable
with things related to DEI?
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I have a simple question, but Iwant to explain why I'm asking
Go for it.
Because I'm thinking, okay,why is this something that
people want to develop?
(13:52):
Like, why do I care?
And I think it'sa simple question.
The reason I'm asking itis because this, again, is
something that when we can talkabout it, people understand,
okay, this makes sense.
Yes, I would want to lookat myself, work on myself.
Of course, I would want tools tointeract with people, but I find
that when the moments come tohave to do this in professional
(14:17):
settings, any setting, there'salmost like a like, well,
why do I have to do this?
Some of that's avoidance andfear and all of that, but I
think it would be worth ourwhile to spend a moment there.
To explain why it's reallyimportant and what it can
look like when you inevitablyget to this place and you
(14:37):
struggle with why do I actuallyneed to do this at work?
Like, why?
Because it's so personal andpeople associate like, this
is actually deeper stuff.
This is not a workthing that I need to be
worried about, but it is.
So it's almost this cycle of,I understand it's important.
Let me go try it.
Oh, this brings up things.
This is my own personalwork or it's too deep for
(14:59):
it to be happening at work.
So I really shouldn'tbe doing it.
And it just repeats and repeats.
So the question is groundedin that, like, why do I really
need to be developing this?
And yes, it is personaland it is relevant.
Yeah, this is such agreat question and an
important question.
I think there's many reasonswhy this is important.
(15:21):
One of the ways in whichI frame it for folks is
I say, We live in a timewhere we can't separate who
we are and our experiencesfrom the work that we do.
It comes into the work.
And I think before, andI'm going to use the
pandemic as a marker.
Before 2020, we were ableto do it in a different way.
(15:43):
Where you can come and do yourwork, keep it pushing, right?
In 2020 post pandemic, peopleare still recovering from all
things related to the pandemic,from the racial reckoning and
racialized trauma that has beenhappening historically, but it
was thrust into the forefrontduring the pandemic that people
(16:06):
had to pay attention to it.
And so this work becomesimportant because if we don't,
then we miss each other.
If we don't, then we continueto do business as usual and
we see the same disparitiesand disproportionalities
numbers that we've beenseeing historically.
If we don't, then we'renot going to be able to
(16:28):
get the funding to keep ourorganizations and agencies
open to provide the services.
If we don't, we're not goingto be able to provide for those
of us who are service providersor work for organizations
that are service providers.
We're going to miss thecommunities and clients and
populations that we serveand continue to miss them.
(16:50):
If we don't, we're goingto be left behind on the
shifting that is happeningin the 2020s and beyond.
And so it's not about Ineed to do this work because
I'm trying to do therapyor counseling with anyone.
It's I need to do this workin order to do it in a way
that is effective, in orderto do it in a way that honors
(17:14):
who people are in relation tothe work that they're doing.
We're not separatingthis from the work.
It is part of the work.
And if we don't do it, thenwe're choosing, I believe,
we're choosing to continue toignore what we're seeing as
far as hiring practices, asfar as retention practices,
(17:35):
as far as promotion practices,caseloads and all the things
we're continuing to ignore thedisparities that we're seeing.
And the question becomes,Who are we choosing to center
and who are we choosingto decenter by the ways in
which we are moving or notmoving within the different
spaces in professional spacesspecifically that we operate in?
(17:57):
You know, with thatcentering, decentering thing.
Okay, I got another question.
It's formulating.
I'm finding that there are a lotof people leaders, various level
position levels, but people whoare supervising in any capacity.
There's this understandingthat they have a role to do
(18:18):
their own work and a role tobe supportive and whatever
that looks like for staff.
But I think that figuringout what that looks like is
bringing up a common themethat I see, where I hear a lot,
I'm not a therapist, like, Ishouldn't be doing this stuff
with my staff, it's too much.
And it's one of those thingswhere it feels so simple to me.
(18:40):
It's like, I'm notsaying be a therapist.
It's not what we're saying,but also there's a part of
what you're describing, whatwe're talking about, that
is very different than howpeople are used to leading.
Very different than thetopics that we talk about,
the things that we engage ourstaff in conversations around.
So I am wondering what yourthoughts are on the person
(19:03):
or people who feel like- Isthis really my job to be doing
this much work with staff?
If you are in a position ofleadership, it is absolutely
your job to be doing this.
It is your job to ensure thatthe way in which you are leading
and collaborating and operatingis promoting visibility,
(19:28):
inclusion, equity, respect.
This is how we retain people.
This is how we continue to beinnovative by making sure we are
attracting diverse perspectivesand experiences in relation to
the profession and our roles.
And so, if we run this backlike 10, 15 years ago, right?
(19:50):
Just, just go back.
There was a lot of talk around,you show value to your staff
by giving them bonuses, right?
Giving them an extra day offor a half a day, which are all
great things and are thingsthat are very helpful for folks.
Yeah.
(20:10):
Let's take that same track.
Why would you do that?
To show value, to show respect,that you see them, that you
appreciate the work that you'redoing, that they're doing.
Let's come back to 2023.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The reason why you needto do this is because of
the same reasons why youthought, let's do this.
Let's have picnics to bringpeople together or whatever.
(20:31):
Companies doing like barbecuesand things like that, right?
The same thing.
You're trying to improve morale.
You're trying to improveconnections and relationship.
If there is norelationship, there is
not going to be work done.
If you don't see who peopleare in relation to the
work, and when I say seepeople, that means who
are they intersectionally.
(20:52):
Who are they as itrelates to race, gender,
sexual orientation, etc.
Whenever they're comfortabledisclosing and sharing.
And no, you're not askingthem, tell me what it's
like to be you, or tellme all your identities.
What you are doing isrecognizing that folks
have a different lens andexperience based on those
intersectional identitiesand how they experience
(21:13):
privilege or marginalizationin relation to the work.
So let me use myselffor an example.
I remember I was workingat a community based
mental health agency.
I was the only, Black maletherapist on staff, and
we were providing clinicalservices in South LA.
And my white clinical supervisorsaid to all of us in group
(21:35):
supervision, there were aboutmaybe nine of us in supervision.
And she says, when you go outto the community, make sure
you put your badges away.
Don't let people seethat you have a badge.
And I remember thinking tomyself, I can't do that.
I can't put my badge away.
(21:56):
If I put my badge away andgo into the community, then
something's going to happen tome by, like, law enforcement.
They're going to question mebeing here, or people are going
to assume things about me.
Like, I just remember just doingthis really fast mental rolodex.
And I remember after I leftthat supervision, I didn't say
anything, but I was like, I'd bedamned if I put my badge away.
(22:17):
Like, matter of fact, I'm goingto tape it on my forehead,
Right.
He said, no thanks.
So, so, so here's theso what for folks.
supervisor didn't recognizethat based on who I was
intersectionally, that I couldhave a different experience in
the community versus wearingand not wearing my badge.
(22:37):
That wasn't a partof a conversation.
So had she said, here'ssomething I've done, But
I recognize I probablycan do this because I'm a
white woman who providesservices, da da da da da.
So people are already goingto assume when I go into
a predominately black andbrown community that I'm not
from here and I'm going toget X, Y, and Z treatment.
Mm hmm.
(22:58):
Mm
But I'm wondering Based on otherpeople's experiences, based on
who you are as a therapist andyour identities, how might you
navigate bop a bop a bop inthe community, in your badge,
and what do you all think?
Like, make it adiscussion, right?
Don't do therapy with me, butrecognize that because of who
we are and we are different,that I have a different
(23:19):
work experienced in you.
And that's the piece that I wantto stress to folks is that we're
not asking about people to tellme about their life experiences,
tell me about your identities.
No.
We're recognizing that peoplehave different experiences
in relation to the workand position that they
hold based on who they are.
And people respond topeople differently based
(23:40):
on those identities.
And that's the piecethat's the difference.
And this is why it's importantfor people to have this
lens and walk the walk.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I'm gonna, I actually wantto ask you a question- When
you started the response, Iliterally felt, I just felt your
(24:00):
response and it continued as anundertone as you were speaking.
And I actually don't know you,so feel free to be like, no, I
don't, I don't want to speak onanything that I ask about, but
I was wondering what you wereactually, was there anything
you weren't speaking to?
Because I felt like whenyou said, When I asked,
(24:21):
is this leadership roleor something like that?
He said, absolutely.
There was justsomething in there.
And I was wondering,was, what was there?
You know, because I do thiswork, right, and because I
train all over around DEI work,folks stop listening when you
(24:42):
start to talk about identities.
And what happens, it goesback to that default that
I talked about earlier.
People get uncomfortable, andif they've had experiences,
they go straight to like HRand I don't want to be sued.
That's not whatI'm talking about.
And so me emphasizing thatthis is absolutely for you.
(25:05):
It's because for those whostopped listening, I wanted
to get their attention again.
Because it happens very quickly.
We're like, nope,I can't do that.
Nope, that doesn't make sense.
We start listening for theexceptions to the rule.
I tell people, listenfor the incorporation.
Don't listen for the exception.
Listen for how do Iincorporate this based on
my positions and roles.
(25:25):
And because it's easyfor folks to, to talk
themselves out of it.
Like, I can't do that because dada da da da, or the common one I
get is, I can't do that becauseI work in accounts payable, or I
can't do that because I'm in IT.
I can't do that because,right, everybody has a thing.
And you don't have to do thisonly if you are interfacing
(25:49):
with, clients or betteryet, people, because some
people say, well, I don't, Idon't interface with people.
I'm in a division of one.
It's just me.
I said, but you send outemails, you, you take
lunch breaks, don't you?
You interact in other wayswith people that you work with.
And so this is for you too.
And how people areresponding to you.
You have somebody toanswer to, too, right?
(26:10):
So it doesn't justbegin and end with you.
It's all over andwithin that particular
system and organization.
So that was what youwere hearing there.
Just me stressing andemphasizing for those who
are listening, who arestarting to do that dance with
themselves, to exne themselvesout of doing the work.
Yes.
Well, thank youfor sharing that.
(26:32):
I appreciate
Thank you for asking.
Yes.
And then you brought somethingup right now that I really
think is helpful to talk about.
And it's the, maybe likecertain tasks or departments
or types of jobs that don'tsee themselves in this space.
(26:53):
It's so common.
So it's usually thingslike financial stuff,
contracting types of things.
Like you said, IT, they donot see themselves in doing
this type of work because it'salmost like, well, we don't
have to, just what you said.
We're not really in that.
We don't provide servicesand that's not, that is not
(27:15):
what we're talking about.
You're talking about anorganizational culture.
Then everybody's in theorganizational culture and
you contribute to that.
And I get so many, Ihear a lot of things.
I'm sure you do too.
But I hear lots of thingsfrom places that I either
contract with, I work in, theycome to me as DEI lady, you
(27:37):
hear there's so much stuff.
And there is a higher percentageof the people that are being
impacted by those that arein these types of roles
that don't see themselvesin these types of roles.
And part of why they have theexperience is because they do
not see themselves as havingto do anything other than,
well, I went to the training,this is my contribution.
(27:58):
Thanks for showingup to the training.
I also need to understandyour contributing to
what people are saying isharmful, hurtful at work.
There is a person that I knowthat manages, IT related things.
And he's really, like, tryingto think about this differently,
(28:20):
and arriving at, so, okay.
So, are you saying thatwhen we are asking people to
change like a system or changesomething that they've been
latching onto for years andyears, that they have these
responses and instead of usbeing annoyed and telling them,
get over it, just deal with it.
Maybe part of ourwork is understanding
(28:41):
that change is hard.
Maybe we could support themthrough it, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, that's whatI'm, that's exactly.
What we're saying, youhave your own responses.
You get annoyed.
You just want people to move on.
So then you come off acertain way and then you could
be, I don't know what thatlooks like for people, but
I'm hearing it's not goingwell, but the slowing down
(29:04):
and helping people get, likeyou're in a role that you think
doesn't apply in the space.
But this was the first timethat I felt like someone
in this role broke it downto process and understand.
So you're saying this?
Oh, I get it.
So we actually havea responsibility
to, I'm like, yes.
(29:25):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
Anywho, I'm justusing this example.
I really want people to getthat there's no off limits
position or department.
Like it's not off limits.
Everyone's there.
You contribute.
Yes.
Absolutely.
You know, I was thinkingas you were sharing when
(29:45):
I was supervising a womanin, she was a case manager.
And I would review herdocumentation through the
electronic documentation system.
And I would see that she wasmaking these mistakes and errors
and I was like, oh, let me,let me, let me talk to her.
So we would have these weeklykind of check in meetings
where I would give herfeedback and say, here are
(30:06):
some things that I'm noticingwith your documentation.
Here are somethings you could do.
And she's taking copiousnotes as I'm talking
and all the things.
We finished the meeting, shegoes, the notes documentation
looked great for maybe a week.
And then the next week isback to what it was before.
I meet with her again.
So we do this cycleseveral times.
(30:26):
And it wasn't until I was like,something's happening here.
Because I was getting, I wasstarting to get frustrated.
This goes back to that recognizewhere you go and what's
coming up for you, intra.
So I was like, I'mgetting frustrated.
I was like, but bepatient, be curious.
Be curious.
So she comes in and Isay, do you have your
(30:47):
notebook from where youtake notes in our meeting?
She said, yeah, I said,can you grab that?
So she grabs the notebook.
And then I said, I want to talkto you about your documentation.
Here's what I notice.
I notice a thing.
When you're here,you understand.
It appears to me that youunderstand you're taking notes.
You get it.
But when you leave and yougo back to do your notes
on your own, you go backto the way it was prior to.
(31:11):
And so I'm wondering,what's that about?
Just being curious.
And she says to me, becausewhen I'm here and I'm
listening to you, it makesa lot of sense to me.
I understand it,I'm writing it down.
When I go back and do it,I don't understand it.
I'm looking back at my notes.
It doesn't make sense to me.
Now here's the piece for folksthat started to check out.
(31:32):
Like, okay, get to your point.
I said to her, would itbe helpful for you if you
recorded me giving youinstructions on how to complete
and do your documentation?
She said, absolutely, becausethen I can listen back, I
can listen to it and lookat my notes and I can do it.
We did that.
That shifted her documentation.
(31:53):
Now, just in thoseinteractions, what I did
was I shifted away from howI view things and how I've
supervised everybody, right?
Why do I have to be differentand do things different?
Like, if I had that mentality,I would have missed her.
What I realized is that shehad a learning difference.
(32:13):
She's, she's anauditory learner.
And so that's who she isintersectionally speaking.
That's based on her identities.
She didn't feel comfortablebringing that to my
attention because I was ina position of leadership.
It wasn't until I openedit up and was curious that
I was able to meet herneeds as my supervisee.
(32:33):
And so that's, again, whatI want folks to hear is
you're doing this work sothat we're ensuring equity,
inclusion, recognizing thatpeople are diverse and have
different lived experiences.
And if it wasn't for metaking a moment to think and
consider what might this belike for her based on who she
was, I would have missed her.
(32:54):
And I would have written her up.
I would have writtenher up several times.
She would have been on herfinal warning, and she probably
would have been let go.
So, notice what Iwould have missed.
This is why this is important.
I wasn't her therapist.
I was her supervisor.
And again, if I don't slowmyself down enough to pick up
on the different experiences,I'll create my own story and
(33:17):
narrative about who she is,subordination, not listening,
refusing to take da da da dada, doesn't want to get it.
Whatever that is, and thenthat impacts the work that
she's doing, because she canfeel my energy too, right?
So, this is why, to yourpoint, this is why this
work is so important to do.
Because when we don'tdo this and come in with
(33:39):
this lens and practicethis, then we miss people.
That's so true.
I honestly, that first lineof defense, like yourself.
That changes so much.
If you don't know what'shappening here, it really does.
Oh my gosh, it impactseverything else.
(34:00):
You just broke it down andI really appreciate that.
It's the thing that peoplestruggle with so much.
It's really quick to go rightpast what you are doing or
what you are thinking, whatyou are feeling, the story
that we're telling ourselves.
So easy to go throughthat and just let me help
(34:21):
somebody get their stuffto get whatever it is.
Even like your abilityto be like, I'm annoyed.
I'm really annoyed.
Let me just
do.
I'm because who
wants to continue to havethe same conversation
over and over again?
Yes.
And you know what?
We can normalize that too.
I don't think that what's,I think what people think
(34:42):
is that we're not supposedto have these responses and
that's not the suggestion.
You actually can have.
You're a human.
You go wherever yougo in your mind.
Just acknowledge
You know, and going back towhat I was saying earlier,
that you were highlightingdecentering and centering.
I was de centering differentways of learning, and I was
centering one way of learning.
(35:03):
Is what I was, just by default.
Just because of my own biases.
Like, you either get it becauseyou're taking notes, because
that's how people learn, or thenthat means you don't understand,
you're incompetent, you can'tdo, I create a narrative, right?
So I was decentering differentways of learning, and I was
centering one way of learning.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay, I'm gonna control my brainbecause, oh my gosh, there's
(35:26):
so many ways this happens.
I won't do that.
I think what could be helpfulis all right, for the people
that have been listening,or maybe they weren't, but
still care, they want to know.
So I'm doing this stuff.
Like, how do I knowI'm on the right track?
This happens when peopledo this type of work.
It's not linear.
(35:46):
It's not always structured.
It's very like this.
People struggle with that,especially in workplaces.
We are not taught to operate inthis go with the flow and learn.
And that's just so notwhat people are used to.
And people honestly want,like, give me a tool that
tells me I'm on the righttrack, or how do I know?
(36:07):
So could we helppeople understand it?
What are the thingsthey're looking for
that indicate progress?
Like, what's somethingthat they can hold on to?
You know, you know thatyou're making progress
when you start to see ashift in the relationships.
When people that maybeyou interact with or might
(36:28):
be supervising or workingwith, when they are moving
differently with you, orresponding differently to you.
You'll notice when you feela little bit lighter, because
the conversations or theinteractions are not as heavy
or they're not as cumbersomebecause you're actually
walking it and doing it.
(36:50):
Change comes from theconsistency in how we show up.
Trust comes from theconsistency in how we show up.
So you're gonna know thatyou're doing something right
or that you're moving inthe right direction because
changes are starting to happen.
Maybe again, that's themore smaller interactions.
are shifting.
Maybe that's how people areresponding to you and coming
to you might be shifting.
(37:12):
And so that's how you'll knowthat you're on the right track
and you're making movements.
I know when our relationship hasshifted, when folks start moving
differently in front of me,they appear more comfortable.
They bring thingsto my attention.
They don't ignore me orleave me off of emails
or whatever it may be.
And so, right?
(37:33):
and some of us, weknow who we are, right?
Some are like, well,that's just who I am.
That's just the way I am.
They need to get over it.
Well, no, that's great.
You know that's who you are.
But they don't need tothen succumb to the way
you are because it's notconducive to the environment.
It's not conduciveto the culture.
It's not conducive to thework that you're trying
(37:53):
to do, as a collective.
And so it's information forpeople to move differently.
I'm also thinking about, Iwas talking to somebody, And
we were talking about theconcept of the things that we
celebrate at work, and whatdo we really acknowledge?
And she brought upa couple things.
(38:13):
One was the concept ofaccountability, and the other
one was getting things wrongor the messiness of things.
So her point was, we don'tnecessarily celebrate
people holding themselvesaccountable till when they
didn't get something right.
Like, it's usuallylike, I'm accountable.
I turned in something on time.
It's our, the things thatwe look at as stuff that we
(38:34):
want to reinforce is, it'snot always the stuff that
is aligned with thistype of journey that
we're talking about.
So I walked awaywith that so true.
Like I don't even necessarilyframe it that way or
celebrate those things.
And I actually, yesterday,just try, I just
wanted to try it out.
I just wanted to acknowledgelike a, I'm proud of a group.
(38:58):
I'm proud.
Like you just, you didn'tdo that well, well, just
what would it look like ifwe said, Oh my gosh, that
was an absolute train wreck.
And you did a greatjob dealing with that.
I think that an indicatorof progress and change
is that there's not thisfelt sense of shame and
fear around not getting itperfectly right all the time.
(39:21):
There's a shared sense, aninternal and shared sense
that, all right, I don't likenot getting it right, but
also this is okay, and how werespond to it is more important.
And we acknowledge and celebratewhen we get those misses right
(39:41):
in how we deal with them.
I think that's the bestway I can describe it.
I don't know howelse to say that.
Yeah, I mean, we're moving awayfrom this idea of perfectionist.
That we have to be perfect.
And part of the beautyis imperfection.
And how we movethrough imperfection.
That's how we grow,that's how we evolve.
You know, culturally,that's how we grew up.
It's like, do better.
Okay, learn from that.
(40:01):
Show up differently.
Okay, what can youtake from that?
It wasn't meant to be.
It wasn't meant to go thatway for whatever reason, and
you don't have to know why...
don't question, right?
So, so part of it is this,our upbringing and learning.
And moving away from this ideathat this is the standard, and
you have to be this way, youhave to look this way, you have
to dress this way, and thatdeems you professional, right?
(40:24):
Moving away from thisideology of, whiteness.
White supremacy ideologyas the standard.
You have to be perfect.
You have to look this way.
You have to dress this way.
And if you're not,then you are subpar.
And so as we are moving inthis direction and being very
intentional, what we areis disrupting the standard.
(40:44):
We are disrupting whathistorically has been
seen as the only way.
That will, this hasbeen centered, right?
Talking about decenteredand centering.
This has been centered.
We are decentering thatas the only way that there
are other ways of knowing,being within a workspace.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would like to take thatconcept and tie it into,
(41:05):
like, communal stuff.
We've been talking aboutidentities, and I am thinking
about the many experiences Ihave with people when it's like
hard for people to grasp thatthere's many people in a space
and it's not a competition ofwho gets more room and whose
experience is the most, but itoften feels like this really
(41:26):
competitive experience oreven if something is talked
about that, that somehowmeans that other stuff is
not important.
So when we were just talkingabout the knowing the self
and your identities, and thenwhat are the other identities,
experiences in the space,and knowing how to be curious
(41:47):
about what the experiences are,lifting things up as this is how
I would do it and someone else.
What I'm thinking is howcan people get to this place
where they know that thegoal is for us to, we can
hold space for all of it.
Like it doesn't have to bewhere you, it's almost like
you represent your own thingand you're in here to fight to
(42:08):
make sure that you are heardor other people are heard.
There's room for all of it.
And that's intentional.
That's on purpose.
We need to understand whateveryone's experiencing.
And even for the person whoI feel like people feel,
well, this is who I am.
So if you're asking me to changewho I am, that's not the ask.
The ask is not for peopleto change who they are.
(42:28):
The ask is to know self, knowwhat also is happening here
and negotiate and co create therelationship in various contexts
because it's person to person.
It could be small teams.
It could be large groups.
It all changes.
And that's the thing to develop.
I feel like I'msaying several things.
(42:49):
I want to know what you thinkand help me make sense of that.
I know.
just, I processed it out loud.
No, I think you'reabsolutely right.
I was just reflecting onas you were sharing that,
about people saying, you'reasking me to change myself.
(43:10):
No, we're not asking you, toyour point, to change yourself.
We're asking you to be aware ofself in order to honor others.
Oh, I like that.
Be aware of
Yes.
to honor humanity.
This is what we're saying.
This is my so what, right?
What's the so what?
We're doing this work inorder to honor, respect, and
(43:32):
love diversity and humanity.
We do it in nature.
We love the differenttypes of trees and plants
and living organisms.
We honor it.
We honor the earth.
We do it with animals.
We do it withdifferent dog breeds.
We do it withdifferent reptiles.
Like, we honor diversity inall other spaces of life.
(43:53):
Why is it different when we'retalking about human beings?
Why is it different?
So It's important, thiswork, going back to what
we were talking aboutearlier, because we want to
honor, respect, humanity.
when we see each other, wedo great for each other.
When we see each other,we can go further than
(44:14):
just seeing ourselves.
So really pushing thiswork beyond just the
me, and how do we?
How do we?
Okay.
All right.
I feel like it's a good timeto make this extra practical
and tangible for people ifthey've been on this journey.
Yes,
(44:35):
So, what are things, what arevery practical things that
people could do from todayand whatever, however many
times or time frame they wantto put on that, but what are
things we can help peopledo to implement some of
what we're talking about?
I'm going to leaveyou all with one thing
Okay.
Write it down.
(44:55):
Because, I know from doingtrainings and teachings that
if you try to give people morethan one, it gets overwhelming.
It's gonna be like, ugh,I don't give up, right?
So let me justgive you one thing.
One of the things that I cameup with that I think is very
effective to do this work, it's,I call it the pause method.
PAUSE.
P A U S E.
(45:18):
When things happen at work, younotice you're having a reaction.
PAUSE.
Okay?
And PAUSE is an acronym,it stands for something.
The first thing you wantto do, let's say for
example, I receive an email.
And the email has a certaintone, it has a level of
(45:39):
disrespect, and I'm havinga reaction to that email.
The first thing I want to do andpause is what the P stands for,
that's ponder, Ponder on whatyour initial thoughts, feelings,
and reactions are, okay?
I'm feeling upset.
I'm annoyed.
And the thing with the Pin ponder is you have to
be honest with yourself.
(45:59):
If you can't be honestwith yourself, who can
you be honest with?
So be honest about thatemail, or that conversation,
or what exchangehappened in the meeting.
That's what the Pstands for, PONDER.
Yeah.
The next thing you want to doin PAUSE is what the A stands
for, that's ASK YOURSELF.
What do I need to dobefore responding so
that I'm not reacting?
(46:20):
Yes.
I need to take a beat.
Maybe I need totake a deep breath.
Maybe I just need to acknowledgethat I received the email
and say nothing else becauseI don't know what to say.
Or if I do say something,I'm going to lose my job
today.
So less is more.
This goes back tothat reactivity.
Don't be reactive.
You want to be responsive.
The U in PAUSE stands forunderstand that you may need to
(46:43):
talk to like an accountabilitypartner or someone else outside
of your immediate go to.
Folks, right?
Your go to folks, that'sconfirmation bias.
They're going to see itthe same way you see it.
But if I go to somebody outsideof that, they can give me some
feedback and say, you know what?
Yeah, take a moment.
Don't respond to that email.
Take a breather, et cetera.
(47:03):
The S in PAUSE isone of my favorites.
It stands for sensitive.
Be sensitive to yourselfand how much time you
need so that you can beresponsive and not reactive.
So for me, because Ipractice pausing, I
need at least 24 hours.
I need a day before I respondto that email, before I have
a follow up conversation.
(47:24):
I need at least a day.
If someone's bringingsomething to my attention
in person, I'm going toacknowledge that they said it.
Thank you for givingme that feedback.
Do you mind if Ifollow up with you?
That's all I'm going to give.
Why?
Because I know myself, I'mstill brewing and stewing, so I
need some time to pause, right?
So be sensitive to yourself.
Here's how you know howmuch time you may need.
(47:46):
When it no longer feels like itjust happened five seconds ago.
When it doesn't feel fresh.
If it still feels fresh,that's not enough time.
Some people, they can takea 15 minute walk or break
and they can come back andrespond to that email, have
that follow up conversation.
Some folks need to go to lunch.
They need to eat becausethey're hangry, right?
(48:06):
Some folks need to work afull workday and then they
can come back and circle.
Some folks need to work out.
Some people needthe next morning.
Some people need a weekend.
Slide into the weekend and comeback on Monday and respond.
Whatever that is for you,be sensitive to yourself.
Here's the key.
Follow up though.
If somebody's waitingfor you, please respond.
Right?
And then finally,the E is execute.
(48:27):
Come up with a plan thatyou can execute that honors
diversity, equity, inclusion,and justice, that is anti
racist and anti oppressive.
Come up with a response that isnot reactive, that's going to
further marginalize, relegate,trivialize people's experiences
or comments or whatever, or ifnothing else, your own biases.
(48:48):
Come up with a response thatyou can check your own stuff
before you press send orbefore you follow up and have
that in person conversation.
So again, The P is forponder, the A is for ask,
the U is for understand,the S is for sensitive,
and the E is for execute.
Practice pausing.
Okay.
(49:08):
I love that.
And I will temper my own desireto expand on those things.
And I will honor thatis the one thing that we
will share with people.
I do imagine that's somethingyou probably train and you
could spend a long timeon each thing and helping
people practice that.
But I really like that.
(49:29):
I do.
that could change a lot.
I have a lot of opportunitiesfor people to reflect
and understand beforegoing into action.
So thank you for sharing that.
Absolutely.
Is there anything elseyou want to say on this
topic before we wrap up?
Ya know one of the things Iwill say is this is your work to
(49:52):
do, our individual work to do.
Individual accountability equalscollective accountability.
We cannot be married to theoutcome of what other people do.
We have to focus on what we do.
And if we are startingwith ourselves, then it's
going to ultimately shift.
Because folks are goingto start to be interested.
They're going to noticethere's a difference and that
(50:12):
can be the shift in the work,but start with self first.
This goes back to intrapersonal.
Start with yourself andthat's going to help
you interact with peopledifferently- interpersonal.
just spoke to my whole soul.
I feel like at work, Icould do that a lot better
than my personal life.
So when you said that, Iwas like, receive it for
(50:34):
yourself and you'd need, whydon't you pause Charmaine
before you do anything?
Oh my gosh.
All right.
Well, thank you so muchfor this conversation.
I, of course, I learned a lotand I honestly think this could
be so valuable for people whoactually want to do different.
Like there's so much in here.
(50:55):
So thank you forsharing your wisdom.
Absolutely.
If people want to get intouch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
Yeah, so if you areinterested in what I do,
feel free to follow me on IG.
it's at dr.
alipscomb, d r dota l i p s c o m b.
(51:16):
You can email me at alan, adouble l e n dot lipscomb, at
csun, c as in cat, s u n dot e du, and I'll be glad to respond.
thank you so much.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Perfect.
All right.
If you were listening todayand you're like, okay, I
want to do something withthis, please share the video
(51:38):
and engage in conversationswith people in your network.
Of course, like,comment, subscribe.
We really want toencourage conversation,
and learning from here.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
can visit our website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
There's access tosocial media handles.
You can email us there.
There's freebies as well.
(51:59):
I want to call attention to ourguided meditations because I
feel like that's very relevantfor today's conversation.
There's a few on there thatcan really help people in
moments when they are feelingshame or when they experience
discrimination or preparingfor hard conversations.
You'll have access to my book,Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
(52:21):
And I think that's it.
I hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks for listening orwatching and until next time.
Bye!
This is absolutely for you.
We're like, nope,I can't do that.
Nope, that doesn't make sense.
We start listening for theexceptions to the rule.
I tell people, listenfor the incorporation.
Don't listen for the exception.
Listen for how do Iincorporate this based on
my positions and roles.
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
(00:20):
And today we are talkingabout how to unpack our
responses to variousinterpersonal interactions.
And we're going to dothat with Lipscomb.
I'll introduce him in a moment.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up inour work with each other in
(00:41):
professional settings or inspaces where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in thoseinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts, views,things that are shared in
today's convo, those are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:19):
Now with me in thisspace is Allen Lipscomb.
Thank you so, somuch for being here.
We're going to havea great convo today.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
what's funny is I don'tknow you that well.
We only met one time.
We have a mutual friend.
And in talking about today'sconversation, you were just
(01:40):
sharing about your expertise.
There's lots of waysthat came to be.
And your approach tohow you do things in any
setting that you're in.
I feel is so valuableand important.
I literally, when I think aboutthis topic, which is a topic
that many people struggle with.
(02:00):
I'm already knowing I'm aboutto be learning some things.
So I'll be here talking toyou and then I'll probably
be taking some notes.
And I am so much lookingforward to the fact that
you'll be the one that'sshining a light on things for
the people in the audience.
So, thank you again.
Would you mind sharinganything about yourself?
(02:21):
Take space.
Introduce yourself.
Anything you want.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm always excited and honoredto be able to share space and
just share pearls of wisdom,things that are helpful in doing
this work in a more intentionaland critically conscious way.
So I am, an Associate Professorat Cal State Northridge in
(02:45):
the social work department.
I also serve as the directorof the online MSW program,
as well as the AssociateChair of the department.
I'm also the director ofour Minority Male Mentoring
Program and our StudentSuccess Allies Program.
In addition to that,I am a practitioner.
I'm a licensedclinical social worker.
(03:06):
I have my doctoratein psychology.
I went from doing directmicro practice, which I still
provide therapy in microspaces, but I started to notice
that there was a need to havethese conversations around
justice, equity, diversity,inclusion, and anti racism.
Beyond just on the microlevel, but what does this
look like in our interactions?
(03:27):
What does this look likewithin organizations and
agencies that I've been a partof or, have, worked with to
assist them in their DEI orJEDI efforts, if you will?
And so my research isinformed by my practice.
My practice very much soinforms the work that I
do in my research work.
So, I have three differentbuckets of research
(03:49):
that I operate in andout of, if you will.
So one is around looking atBlack male grief and trauma.
What are the ways inwhich Black men grieve?
And most importantly, whatare the ways in which we can
provide healing in clinicalspaces and therapeutic spaces
in a way that is affirming?
In a way that is honoringbase, in a way that is
(04:11):
anti oppressive, antiracist, and doesn't further
stigmatize and relegate theirexperiences to the margins.
So that's one of my researchtracks, if you will.
The second one is around antioppressive practices with
communities of color in general.
And what are some effectiveways to provide services.
(04:31):
Again, that's not stigmatizing.
That really honors people'sexperiences to help them along
their mental health journey.
And then finally, more relevantto our talk today is around
justice, equity, diversity,and inclusion and anti racism
work within organizations.
And again, like I mentioned amoment ago, I recognize that it
(04:51):
wasn't enough to just do thison a more micro interaction.
One on one.
It was like, how do we do this?
How do we retain people?
How do we recruit people?
How do we mentor folks,especially when we're looking
at communities of color?
What are we doing right?
And what aren't we doing right?
And then what are wegoing to do about it?
And so it all happens in theinteractions, I say, and so
(05:13):
having the research to support.
What I see in different spacesand what can be helpful to
really bolster and upliftDEI efforts in organization
is very important to me inthe work that I'm doing.
Even, when I was evenreferencing, like, introducing
you, I kept trying to, like,find a word and I still don't
(05:35):
even have the word, but inyour intro, I'm like, okay,
there's, you are a practitionerthat is research based too, but
you can even tell in the waythat you're describing things,
you are very practitionerbased, practice based.
When you're talking about thebuckets and I flow in and out
of them, you have a flow andknow that there's buckets, but
also the buckets have thingsin common and you don't enter
(05:59):
a space and this hat is onand you only use one bucket.
It just comes across ineverything that you say,
and I feel like it's soimportant to do that.
I remember when we werespeaking, I think I was
telling you that I haven'tcome across a whole lot of
people who have the varioustypes of expertise and then
(06:20):
are able to meld them togetherto do this type of work.
Oftentimes it's peoplewho are maybe heavily
clinical and people whoare heavily clinical aren't
necessarily in the DEI space.
And just so you know,in all of the episodes,
while I say DEI, DEI is anumbrella term to capture
many people's approaches,organizations approaches.
(06:41):
What approach you use, the termsyou use, all of those are valid.
It doesn't negate that at all.
And I just lost mytrain of thought.
But my point was,
Clinical.
Folks who stay
oh, thank you.
See, look, okay, see,you're clinical, there you
go, you were listening.
Yes, they're not necessarilyall up in the DEI space like
that, and then there's thisadministrative piece, and then
(07:03):
you have the research, like youhave a heavy research component.
And you use all ofit in every space.
I'm imagining, I'm not inthose individual sessions with
you, but I'm imagining allof that is with you in the
individual spaces with peopleall the way to org stuff.
So I just find that'sso helpful to have the
(07:25):
various types of expertise.
It makes for a much morewell rounded experience,
especially in this topic.
Cause people are complex peopleand then we live with our own
histories and we're in systems.
It's too hard to separate.
So anywho, I just.
I'm knowing I'mgoing to learn a lot.
(07:46):
Like I get so excited whenI meet people who have,
just a lifelong journey andthey've, they've put it all
together and are not afraidto put it all together.
I think what happens in thistype of industry is people go
down one track and fill theirbuckets in that one track.
(08:07):
I think it would be so helpfulto start with, what are we
talking about when we say thatpeople are having responses
to interpersonal interactions?
I even think that you mighthave used the term reactivities,
something about that there.
So what are we talkingabout when we say that?
Absolutely.
So I believe that folks whoare wanting to do this work
(08:32):
are doing it with the utmostbest intentions, right?
And I also think that if weare not learning and gaining
tools on our interpersonal dayto day interactions that we are
having with people, then we'renot going to really live this.
(08:55):
We're not going toreally walk this and
breathe this day to day.
You know, someone could belistening right now, or I could
be doing a training or a lecturein a class, and folks get it.
Theoretically, they get it.
Philosophically, they get it.
Of course, you're goingto have those naysayers.
I'm not talking tothose groups of folks.
I'm talking to those folks whoare wanting to address their
(09:15):
own ways of contributing toenvironments that are not so
inclusive and doesn't fosterequity and diversity and
inclusion and anti racism,like those folks, they get it.
But what they don't get isthose interpersonal day to
day interactions where biasesshow up and how when we are
(09:37):
being reactive, we are morelikely to play out our biases.
When we're not taking a momentto think through, recognizing
what our own stuff is before westart engaging, and that engage
can be having a conversation.
Engaging could be sendinga text message, engaging
could be sending an emailor responding to an email.
(09:58):
And so once we have thesemechanisms that helps us with
our interactions to reallyembrace DEI work, that's when
we start to see a shift, notonly on the more individual
kind of micro level, but alsoon the mezzo and macro level.
So how are we doing thisas a collective within
our program, division,organization, and how are we
(10:19):
doing this in the community?
Right.
And so that's what I mean by ourinteractions and interpersonal
skills is important, in orderto do this intrapersonally
within myself, like, what do Ineed to check and be aware of?
And then interpersonally as I'min engaging with other people?
So many like clinicalterms, even in that.
(10:42):
I might at times, ifsomething, if we need to
explain something a little bitmore, that might be helpful.
I do think it might behelpful to explain even
that relationship betweenintra interpersonal.
I'm honestly thinking about.
Do you know emotionfocused therapy?
Okay.
I love that.
Anywho, those twolittle circles.
(11:03):
And then there's thething in the middle.
I find that one, somethingyou said, that's so, so
true is people get it.
Like you can tell themthis is important.
This is how it works.
Understand it.
Got it.
And then in the momentto do it, there's a lot
of different responses.
But it doesn't, thelearning, the information.
It's really hard tolearn it and just do it.
(11:25):
So there's that whole internalintra piece that's going on
and having to sort that out.
And then there's what'shappening with other
people and what's theirs.
And then there's in themiddle, when they combine.
So there's like that part thatyou have your own situation
going on, and then dependingon who you're interacting with,
the context or whatever, thatactually could change what's
(11:46):
happening in the middle, sothat's important to know too.
So I don't know if there'sanything to add to that.
Just to help peopleunderstand those terms and
what we're actually talkingabout, would you have
anything to add to that?
Yeah.
just to reiterate andhighlight, it is really
starting with what's goingon with you internally.
(12:06):
Where does your thoughts gowhen things happen, when you
experience things, right?
What do I start to think about?
What story do I tellmyself about myself?
And better yet, what story doI tell myself about the other?
Like, what narrativesdo I create about that
experience, right?
What feelings doI have internally?
Am I uncomfortable?
(12:27):
Am I frustrated?
Am I angry?
Am I comfortable?
Am I happy?
Like, what is myinternal experience?
And that guides how Ithen interact with other
people outside of myself.
And so, like you said, that inbetween those circles, that's
where the real work happens.
(12:48):
That's where the real workhappens, in that in between.
And so my goal isto help people.
in that in between togain some tools to help
them practice this.
One of the things we do whenwe don't have the tools and
we're not engaging in thiswork is we go to our defaults.
Our defaults are theway in which we operate.
(13:12):
It's our day to day.
Where do I defaultwhen I'm angry?
Where do I defaultwhen I'm comfortable?
Where do I default whenI'm confused and don't
understand something?
We all have defaults.
Some of us, we, when we'reuncomfortable, we use
inappropriate humor or laughterbecause we're so uncomfortable.
Some of us when we'reuncomfortable, we try to
change the topic because it'sextremely uncomfortable, right?
(13:32):
Whatever that default is, thisgoes back to that intra- What's
happening intrapersonallywith me when I'm uncomfortable
with things related to DEI?
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I have a simple question, but Iwant to explain why I'm asking
Go for it.
Because I'm thinking, okay,why is this something that
people want to develop?
(13:52):
Like, why do I care?
And I think it'sa simple question.
The reason I'm asking itis because this, again, is
something that when we can talkabout it, people understand,
okay, this makes sense.
Yes, I would want to lookat myself, work on myself.
Of course, I would want tools tointeract with people, but I find
that when the moments come tohave to do this in professional
(14:17):
settings, any setting, there'salmost like a like, well,
why do I have to do this?
Some of that's avoidance andfear and all of that, but I
think it would be worth ourwhile to spend a moment there.
To explain why it's reallyimportant and what it can
look like when you inevitablyget to this place and you
(14:37):
struggle with why do I actuallyneed to do this at work?
Like, why?
Because it's so personal andpeople associate like, this
is actually deeper stuff.
This is not a workthing that I need to be
worried about, but it is.
So it's almost this cycle of,I understand it's important.
Let me go try it.
Oh, this brings up things.
This is my own personalwork or it's too deep for
(14:59):
it to be happening at work.
So I really shouldn'tbe doing it.
And it just repeats and repeats.
So the question is groundedin that, like, why do I really
need to be developing this?
And yes, it is personaland it is relevant.
Yeah, this is such agreat question and an
important question.
I think there's many reasonswhy this is important.
(15:21):
One of the ways in whichI frame it for folks is
I say, We live in a timewhere we can't separate who
we are and our experiencesfrom the work that we do.
It comes into the work.
And I think before, andI'm going to use the
pandemic as a marker.
Before 2020, we were ableto do it in a different way.
(15:43):
Where you can come and do yourwork, keep it pushing, right?
In 2020 post pandemic, peopleare still recovering from all
things related to the pandemic,from the racial reckoning and
racialized trauma that has beenhappening historically, but it
was thrust into the forefrontduring the pandemic that people
(16:06):
had to pay attention to it.
And so this work becomesimportant because if we don't,
then we miss each other.
If we don't, then we continueto do business as usual and
we see the same disparitiesand disproportionalities
numbers that we've beenseeing historically.
If we don't, then we'renot going to be able to
(16:28):
get the funding to keep ourorganizations and agencies
open to provide the services.
If we don't, we're not goingto be able to provide for those
of us who are service providersor work for organizations
that are service providers.
We're going to miss thecommunities and clients and
populations that we serveand continue to miss them.
(16:50):
If we don't, we're goingto be left behind on the
shifting that is happeningin the 2020s and beyond.
And so it's not about Ineed to do this work because
I'm trying to do therapyor counseling with anyone.
It's I need to do this workin order to do it in a way
that is effective, in orderto do it in a way that honors
(17:14):
who people are in relation tothe work that they're doing.
We're not separatingthis from the work.
It is part of the work.
And if we don't do it, thenwe're choosing, I believe,
we're choosing to continue toignore what we're seeing as
far as hiring practices, asfar as retention practices,
(17:35):
as far as promotion practices,caseloads and all the things
we're continuing to ignore thedisparities that we're seeing.
And the question becomes,Who are we choosing to center
and who are we choosingto decenter by the ways in
which we are moving or notmoving within the different
spaces in professional spacesspecifically that we operate in?
(17:57):
You know, with thatcentering, decentering thing.
Okay, I got another question.
It's formulating.
I'm finding that there are a lotof people leaders, various level
position levels, but people whoare supervising in any capacity.
There's this understandingthat they have a role to do
(18:18):
their own work and a role tobe supportive and whatever
that looks like for staff.
But I think that figuringout what that looks like is
bringing up a common themethat I see, where I hear a lot,
I'm not a therapist, like, Ishouldn't be doing this stuff
with my staff, it's too much.
And it's one of those thingswhere it feels so simple to me.
(18:40):
It's like, I'm notsaying be a therapist.
It's not what we're saying,but also there's a part of
what you're describing, whatwe're talking about, that
is very different than howpeople are used to leading.
Very different than thetopics that we talk about,
the things that we engage ourstaff in conversations around.
So I am wondering what yourthoughts are on the person
(19:03):
or people who feel like- Isthis really my job to be doing
this much work with staff?
If you are in a position ofleadership, it is absolutely
your job to be doing this.
It is your job to ensure thatthe way in which you are leading
and collaborating and operatingis promoting visibility,
(19:28):
inclusion, equity, respect.
This is how we retain people.
This is how we continue to beinnovative by making sure we are
attracting diverse perspectivesand experiences in relation to
the profession and our roles.
And so, if we run this backlike 10, 15 years ago, right?
(19:50):
Just, just go back.
There was a lot of talk around,you show value to your staff
by giving them bonuses, right?
Giving them an extra day offor a half a day, which are all
great things and are thingsthat are very helpful for folks.
Yeah.
(20:10):
Let's take that same track.
Why would you do that?
To show value, to show respect,that you see them, that you
appreciate the work that you'redoing, that they're doing.
Let's come back to 2023.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The reason why you needto do this is because of
the same reasons why youthought, let's do this.
Let's have picnics to bringpeople together or whatever.
(20:31):
Companies doing like barbecuesand things like that, right?
The same thing.
You're trying to improve morale.
You're trying to improveconnections and relationship.
If there is norelationship, there is
not going to be work done.
If you don't see who peopleare in relation to the
work, and when I say seepeople, that means who
are they intersectionally.
(20:52):
Who are they as itrelates to race, gender,
sexual orientation, etc.
Whenever they're comfortabledisclosing and sharing.
And no, you're not askingthem, tell me what it's
like to be you, or tellme all your identities.
What you are doing isrecognizing that folks
have a different lens andexperience based on those
intersectional identitiesand how they experience
(21:13):
privilege or marginalizationin relation to the work.
So let me use myselffor an example.
I remember I was workingat a community based
mental health agency.
I was the only, Black maletherapist on staff, and
we were providing clinicalservices in South LA.
And my white clinical supervisorsaid to all of us in group
(21:35):
supervision, there were aboutmaybe nine of us in supervision.
And she says, when you go outto the community, make sure
you put your badges away.
Don't let people seethat you have a badge.
And I remember thinking tomyself, I can't do that.
I can't put my badge away.
(21:56):
If I put my badge away andgo into the community, then
something's going to happen tome by, like, law enforcement.
They're going to question mebeing here, or people are going
to assume things about me.
Like, I just remember just doingthis really fast mental rolodex.
And I remember after I leftthat supervision, I didn't say
anything, but I was like, I'd bedamned if I put my badge away.
(22:17):
Like, matter of fact, I'm goingto tape it on my forehead,
Right.
He said, no thanks.
So, so, so here's theso what for folks.
supervisor didn't recognizethat based on who I was
intersectionally, that I couldhave a different experience in
the community versus wearingand not wearing my badge.
(22:37):
That wasn't a partof a conversation.
So had she said, here'ssomething I've done, But
I recognize I probablycan do this because I'm a
white woman who providesservices, da da da da da.
So people are already goingto assume when I go into
a predominately black andbrown community that I'm not
from here and I'm going toget X, Y, and Z treatment.
Mm hmm.
(22:58):
Mm
But I'm wondering Based on otherpeople's experiences, based on
who you are as a therapist andyour identities, how might you
navigate bop a bop a bop inthe community, in your badge,
and what do you all think?
Like, make it adiscussion, right?
Don't do therapy with me, butrecognize that because of who
we are and we are different,that I have a different
(23:19):
work experienced in you.
And that's the piece that I wantto stress to folks is that we're
not asking about people to tellme about their life experiences,
tell me about your identities.
No.
We're recognizing that peoplehave different experiences
in relation to the workand position that they
hold based on who they are.
And people respond topeople differently based
(23:40):
on those identities.
And that's the piecethat's the difference.
And this is why it's importantfor people to have this
lens and walk the walk.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I'm gonna, I actually wantto ask you a question- When
you started the response, Iliterally felt, I just felt your
(24:00):
response and it continued as anundertone as you were speaking.
And I actually don't know you,so feel free to be like, no, I
don't, I don't want to speak onanything that I ask about, but
I was wondering what you wereactually, was there anything
you weren't speaking to?
Because I felt like whenyou said, When I asked,
(24:21):
is this leadership roleor something like that?
He said, absolutely.
There was justsomething in there.
And I was wondering,was, what was there?
You know, because I do thiswork, right, and because I
train all over around DEI work,folks stop listening when you
(24:42):
start to talk about identities.
And what happens, it goesback to that default that
I talked about earlier.
People get uncomfortable, andif they've had experiences,
they go straight to like HRand I don't want to be sued.
That's not whatI'm talking about.
And so me emphasizing thatthis is absolutely for you.
(25:05):
It's because for those whostopped listening, I wanted
to get their attention again.
Because it happens very quickly.
We're like, nope,I can't do that.
Nope, that doesn't make sense.
We start listening for theexceptions to the rule.
I tell people, listenfor the incorporation.
Don't listen for the exception.
Listen for how do Iincorporate this based on
my positions and roles.
(25:25):
And because it's easyfor folks to, to talk
themselves out of it.
Like, I can't do that because dada da da da, or the common one I
get is, I can't do that becauseI work in accounts payable, or I
can't do that because I'm in IT.
I can't do that because,right, everybody has a thing.
And you don't have to do thisonly if you are interfacing
(25:49):
with, clients or betteryet, people, because some
people say, well, I don't, Idon't interface with people.
I'm in a division of one.
It's just me.
I said, but you send outemails, you, you take
lunch breaks, don't you?
You interact in other wayswith people that you work with.
And so this is for you too.
And how people areresponding to you.
You have somebody toanswer to, too, right?
(26:10):
So it doesn't justbegin and end with you.
It's all over andwithin that particular
system and organization.
So that was what youwere hearing there.
Just me stressing andemphasizing for those who
are listening, who arestarting to do that dance with
themselves, to exne themselvesout of doing the work.
Yes.
Well, thank youfor sharing that.
(26:32):
I appreciate
Thank you for asking.
Yes.
And then you brought somethingup right now that I really
think is helpful to talk about.
And it's the, maybe likecertain tasks or departments
or types of jobs that don'tsee themselves in this space.
(26:53):
It's so common.
So it's usually thingslike financial stuff,
contracting types of things.
Like you said, IT, they donot see themselves in doing
this type of work because it'salmost like, well, we don't
have to, just what you said.
We're not really in that.
We don't provide servicesand that's not, that is not
(27:15):
what we're talking about.
You're talking about anorganizational culture.
Then everybody's in theorganizational culture and
you contribute to that.
And I get so many, Ihear a lot of things.
I'm sure you do too.
But I hear lots of thingsfrom places that I either
contract with, I work in, theycome to me as DEI lady, you
(27:37):
hear there's so much stuff.
And there is a higher percentageof the people that are being
impacted by those that arein these types of roles
that don't see themselvesin these types of roles.
And part of why they have theexperience is because they do
not see themselves as havingto do anything other than,
well, I went to the training,this is my contribution.
(27:58):
Thanks for showingup to the training.
I also need to understandyour contributing to
what people are saying isharmful, hurtful at work.
There is a person that I knowthat manages, IT related things.
And he's really, like, tryingto think about this differently,
(28:20):
and arriving at, so, okay.
So, are you saying thatwhen we are asking people to
change like a system or changesomething that they've been
latching onto for years andyears, that they have these
responses and instead of usbeing annoyed and telling them,
get over it, just deal with it.
Maybe part of ourwork is understanding
(28:41):
that change is hard.
Maybe we could support themthrough it, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, that's whatI'm, that's exactly.
What we're saying, youhave your own responses.
You get annoyed.
You just want people to move on.
So then you come off acertain way and then you could
be, I don't know what thatlooks like for people, but
I'm hearing it's not goingwell, but the slowing down
(29:04):
and helping people get, likeyou're in a role that you think
doesn't apply in the space.
But this was the first timethat I felt like someone
in this role broke it downto process and understand.
So you're saying this?
Oh, I get it.
So we actually havea responsibility
to, I'm like, yes.
(29:25):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
Anywho, I'm justusing this example.
I really want people to getthat there's no off limits
position or department.
Like it's not off limits.
Everyone's there.
You contribute.
Yes.
Absolutely.
You know, I was thinkingas you were sharing when
(29:45):
I was supervising a womanin, she was a case manager.
And I would review herdocumentation through the
electronic documentation system.
And I would see that she wasmaking these mistakes and errors
and I was like, oh, let me,let me, let me talk to her.
So we would have these weeklykind of check in meetings
where I would give herfeedback and say, here are
(30:06):
some things that I'm noticingwith your documentation.
Here are somethings you could do.
And she's taking copiousnotes as I'm talking
and all the things.
We finished the meeting, shegoes, the notes documentation
looked great for maybe a week.
And then the next week isback to what it was before.
I meet with her again.
So we do this cycleseveral times.
(30:26):
And it wasn't until I was like,something's happening here.
Because I was getting, I wasstarting to get frustrated.
This goes back to that recognizewhere you go and what's
coming up for you, intra.
So I was like, I'mgetting frustrated.
I was like, but bepatient, be curious.
Be curious.
So she comes in and Isay, do you have your
(30:47):
notebook from where youtake notes in our meeting?
She said, yeah, I said,can you grab that?
So she grabs the notebook.
And then I said, I want to talkto you about your documentation.
Here's what I notice.
I notice a thing.
When you're here,you understand.
It appears to me that youunderstand you're taking notes.
You get it.
But when you leave and yougo back to do your notes
on your own, you go backto the way it was prior to.
(31:11):
And so I'm wondering,what's that about?
Just being curious.
And she says to me, becausewhen I'm here and I'm
listening to you, it makesa lot of sense to me.
I understand it,I'm writing it down.
When I go back and do it,I don't understand it.
I'm looking back at my notes.
It doesn't make sense to me.
Now here's the piece for folksthat started to check out.
(31:32):
Like, okay, get to your point.
I said to her, would itbe helpful for you if you
recorded me giving youinstructions on how to complete
and do your documentation?
She said, absolutely, becausethen I can listen back, I
can listen to it and lookat my notes and I can do it.
We did that.
That shifted her documentation.
(31:53):
Now, just in thoseinteractions, what I did
was I shifted away from howI view things and how I've
supervised everybody, right?
Why do I have to be differentand do things different?
Like, if I had that mentality,I would have missed her.
What I realized is that shehad a learning difference.
(32:13):
She's, she's anauditory learner.
And so that's who she isintersectionally speaking.
That's based on her identities.
She didn't feel comfortablebringing that to my
attention because I was ina position of leadership.
It wasn't until I openedit up and was curious that
I was able to meet herneeds as my supervisee.
(32:33):
And so that's, again, whatI want folks to hear is
you're doing this work sothat we're ensuring equity,
inclusion, recognizing thatpeople are diverse and have
different lived experiences.
And if it wasn't for metaking a moment to think and
consider what might this belike for her based on who she
was, I would have missed her.
(32:54):
And I would have written her up.
I would have writtenher up several times.
She would have been on herfinal warning, and she probably
would have been let go.
So, notice what Iwould have missed.
This is why this is important.
I wasn't her therapist.
I was her supervisor.
And again, if I don't slowmyself down enough to pick up
on the different experiences,I'll create my own story and
(33:17):
narrative about who she is,subordination, not listening,
refusing to take da da da dada, doesn't want to get it.
Whatever that is, and thenthat impacts the work that
she's doing, because she canfeel my energy too, right?
So, this is why, to yourpoint, this is why this
work is so important to do.
Because when we don'tdo this and come in with
(33:39):
this lens and practicethis, then we miss people.
That's so true.
I honestly, that first lineof defense, like yourself.
That changes so much.
If you don't know what'shappening here, it really does.
Oh my gosh, it impactseverything else.
(34:00):
You just broke it down andI really appreciate that.
It's the thing that peoplestruggle with so much.
It's really quick to go rightpast what you are doing or
what you are thinking, whatyou are feeling, the story
that we're telling ourselves.
So easy to go throughthat and just let me help
(34:21):
somebody get their stuffto get whatever it is.
Even like your abilityto be like, I'm annoyed.
I'm really annoyed.
Let me just
do.
I'm because who
wants to continue to havethe same conversation
over and over again?
Yes.
And you know what?
We can normalize that too.
I don't think that what's,I think what people think
(34:42):
is that we're not supposedto have these responses and
that's not the suggestion.
You actually can have.
You're a human.
You go wherever yougo in your mind.
Just acknowledge
You know, and going back towhat I was saying earlier,
that you were highlightingdecentering and centering.
I was de centering differentways of learning, and I was
centering one way of learning.
(35:03):
Is what I was, just by default.
Just because of my own biases.
Like, you either get it becauseyou're taking notes, because
that's how people learn, or thenthat means you don't understand,
you're incompetent, you can'tdo, I create a narrative, right?
So I was decentering differentways of learning, and I was
centering one way of learning.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay, I'm gonna control my brainbecause, oh my gosh, there's
(35:26):
so many ways this happens.
I won't do that.
I think what could be helpfulis all right, for the people
that have been listening,or maybe they weren't, but
still care, they want to know.
So I'm doing this stuff.
Like, how do I knowI'm on the right track?
This happens when peopledo this type of work.
It's not linear.
(35:46):
It's not always structured.
It's very like this.
People struggle with that,especially in workplaces.
We are not taught to operate inthis go with the flow and learn.
And that's just so notwhat people are used to.
And people honestly want,like, give me a tool that
tells me I'm on the righttrack, or how do I know?
(36:07):
So could we helppeople understand it?
What are the thingsthey're looking for
that indicate progress?
Like, what's somethingthat they can hold on to?
You know, you know thatyou're making progress
when you start to see ashift in the relationships.
When people that maybeyou interact with or might
(36:28):
be supervising or workingwith, when they are moving
differently with you, orresponding differently to you.
You'll notice when you feela little bit lighter, because
the conversations or theinteractions are not as heavy
or they're not as cumbersomebecause you're actually
walking it and doing it.
(36:50):
Change comes from theconsistency in how we show up.
Trust comes from theconsistency in how we show up.
So you're gonna know thatyou're doing something right
or that you're moving inthe right direction because
changes are starting to happen.
Maybe again, that's themore smaller interactions.
are shifting.
Maybe that's how people areresponding to you and coming
to you might be shifting.
(37:12):
And so that's how you'll knowthat you're on the right track
and you're making movements.
I know when our relationship hasshifted, when folks start moving
differently in front of me,they appear more comfortable.
They bring thingsto my attention.
They don't ignore me orleave me off of emails
or whatever it may be.
And so, right?
(37:33):
and some of us, weknow who we are, right?
Some are like, well,that's just who I am.
That's just the way I am.
They need to get over it.
Well, no, that's great.
You know that's who you are.
But they don't need tothen succumb to the way
you are because it's notconducive to the environment.
It's not conduciveto the culture.
It's not conducive to thework that you're trying
(37:53):
to do, as a collective.
And so it's information forpeople to move differently.
I'm also thinking about, Iwas talking to somebody, And
we were talking about theconcept of the things that we
celebrate at work, and whatdo we really acknowledge?
And she brought upa couple things.
(38:13):
One was the concept ofaccountability, and the other
one was getting things wrongor the messiness of things.
So her point was, we don'tnecessarily celebrate
people holding themselvesaccountable till when they
didn't get something right.
Like, it's usuallylike, I'm accountable.
I turned in something on time.
It's our, the things thatwe look at as stuff that we
(38:34):
want to reinforce is, it'snot always the stuff that
is aligned with thistype of journey that
we're talking about.
So I walked awaywith that so true.
Like I don't even necessarilyframe it that way or
celebrate those things.
And I actually, yesterday,just try, I just
wanted to try it out.
I just wanted to acknowledgelike a, I'm proud of a group.
(38:58):
I'm proud.
Like you just, you didn'tdo that well, well, just
what would it look like ifwe said, Oh my gosh, that
was an absolute train wreck.
And you did a greatjob dealing with that.
I think that an indicatorof progress and change
is that there's not thisfelt sense of shame and
fear around not getting itperfectly right all the time.
(39:21):
There's a shared sense, aninternal and shared sense
that, all right, I don't likenot getting it right, but
also this is okay, and how werespond to it is more important.
And we acknowledge and celebratewhen we get those misses right
(39:41):
in how we deal with them.
I think that's the bestway I can describe it.
I don't know howelse to say that.
Yeah, I mean, we're moving awayfrom this idea of perfectionist.
That we have to be perfect.
And part of the beautyis imperfection.
And how we movethrough imperfection.
That's how we grow,that's how we evolve.
You know, culturally,that's how we grew up.
It's like, do better.
Okay, learn from that.
(40:01):
Show up differently.
Okay, what can youtake from that?
It wasn't meant to be.
It wasn't meant to go thatway for whatever reason, and
you don't have to know why...
don't question, right?
So, so part of it is this,our upbringing and learning.
And moving away from this ideathat this is the standard, and
you have to be this way, youhave to look this way, you have
to dress this way, and thatdeems you professional, right?
(40:24):
Moving away from thisideology of, whiteness.
White supremacy ideologyas the standard.
You have to be perfect.
You have to look this way.
You have to dress this way.
And if you're not,then you are subpar.
And so as we are moving inthis direction and being very
intentional, what we areis disrupting the standard.
(40:44):
We are disrupting whathistorically has been
seen as the only way.
That will, this hasbeen centered, right?
Talking about decenteredand centering.
This has been centered.
We are decentering thatas the only way that there
are other ways of knowing,being within a workspace.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would like to take thatconcept and tie it into,
(41:05):
like, communal stuff.
We've been talking aboutidentities, and I am thinking
about the many experiences Ihave with people when it's like
hard for people to grasp thatthere's many people in a space
and it's not a competition ofwho gets more room and whose
experience is the most, but itoften feels like this really
(41:26):
competitive experience oreven if something is talked
about that, that somehowmeans that other stuff is
not important.
So when we were just talkingabout the knowing the self
and your identities, and thenwhat are the other identities,
experiences in the space,and knowing how to be curious
(41:47):
about what the experiences are,lifting things up as this is how
I would do it and someone else.
What I'm thinking is howcan people get to this place
where they know that thegoal is for us to, we can
hold space for all of it.
Like it doesn't have to bewhere you, it's almost like
you represent your own thingand you're in here to fight to
(42:08):
make sure that you are heardor other people are heard.
There's room for all of it.
And that's intentional.
That's on purpose.
We need to understand whateveryone's experiencing.
And even for the person whoI feel like people feel,
well, this is who I am.
So if you're asking me to changewho I am, that's not the ask.
The ask is not for peopleto change who they are.
(42:28):
The ask is to know self, knowwhat also is happening here
and negotiate and co create therelationship in various contexts
because it's person to person.
It could be small teams.
It could be large groups.
It all changes.
And that's the thing to develop.
I feel like I'msaying several things.
(42:49):
I want to know what you thinkand help me make sense of that.
I know.
just, I processed it out loud.
No, I think you'reabsolutely right.
I was just reflecting onas you were sharing that,
about people saying, you'reasking me to change myself.
(43:10):
No, we're not asking you, toyour point, to change yourself.
We're asking you to be aware ofself in order to honor others.
Oh, I like that.
Be aware of
Yes.
to honor humanity.
This is what we're saying.
This is my so what, right?
What's the so what?
We're doing this work inorder to honor, respect, and
(43:32):
love diversity and humanity.
We do it in nature.
We love the differenttypes of trees and plants
and living organisms.
We honor it.
We honor the earth.
We do it with animals.
We do it withdifferent dog breeds.
We do it withdifferent reptiles.
Like, we honor diversity inall other spaces of life.
(43:53):
Why is it different when we'retalking about human beings?
Why is it different?
So It's important, thiswork, going back to what
we were talking aboutearlier, because we want to
honor, respect, humanity.
when we see each other, wedo great for each other.
When we see each other,we can go further than
(44:14):
just seeing ourselves.
So really pushing thiswork beyond just the
me, and how do we?
How do we?
Okay.
All right.
I feel like it's a good timeto make this extra practical
and tangible for people ifthey've been on this journey.
Yes,
(44:35):
So, what are things, what arevery practical things that
people could do from todayand whatever, however many
times or time frame they wantto put on that, but what are
things we can help peopledo to implement some of
what we're talking about?
I'm going to leaveyou all with one thing
Okay.
Write it down.
(44:55):
Because, I know from doingtrainings and teachings that
if you try to give people morethan one, it gets overwhelming.
It's gonna be like, ugh,I don't give up, right?
So let me justgive you one thing.
One of the things that I cameup with that I think is very
effective to do this work, it's,I call it the pause method.
PAUSE.
P A U S E.
(45:18):
When things happen at work, younotice you're having a reaction.
PAUSE.
Okay?
And PAUSE is an acronym,it stands for something.
The first thing you wantto do, let's say for
example, I receive an email.
And the email has a certaintone, it has a level of
(45:39):
disrespect, and I'm havinga reaction to that email.
The first thing I want to do andpause is what the P stands for,
that's ponder, Ponder on whatyour initial thoughts, feelings,
and reactions are, okay?
I'm feeling upset.
I'm annoyed.
And the thing with the Pin ponder is you have to
be honest with yourself.
(45:59):
If you can't be honestwith yourself, who can
you be honest with?
So be honest about thatemail, or that conversation,
or what exchangehappened in the meeting.
That's what the Pstands for, PONDER.
Yeah.
The next thing you want to doin PAUSE is what the A stands
for, that's ASK YOURSELF.
What do I need to dobefore responding so
that I'm not reacting?
(46:20):
Yes.
I need to take a beat.
Maybe I need totake a deep breath.
Maybe I just need to acknowledgethat I received the email
and say nothing else becauseI don't know what to say.
Or if I do say something,I'm going to lose my job
today.
So less is more.
This goes back tothat reactivity.
Don't be reactive.
You want to be responsive.
The U in PAUSE stands forunderstand that you may need to
(46:43):
talk to like an accountabilitypartner or someone else outside
of your immediate go to.
Folks, right?
Your go to folks, that'sconfirmation bias.
They're going to see itthe same way you see it.
But if I go to somebody outsideof that, they can give me some
feedback and say, you know what?
Yeah, take a moment.
Don't respond to that email.
Take a breather, et cetera.
(47:03):
The S in PAUSE isone of my favorites.
It stands for sensitive.
Be sensitive to yourselfand how much time you
need so that you can beresponsive and not reactive.
So for me, because Ipractice pausing, I
need at least 24 hours.
I need a day before I respondto that email, before I have
a follow up conversation.
(47:24):
I need at least a day.
If someone's bringingsomething to my attention
in person, I'm going toacknowledge that they said it.
Thank you for givingme that feedback.
Do you mind if Ifollow up with you?
That's all I'm going to give.
Why?
Because I know myself, I'mstill brewing and stewing, so I
need some time to pause, right?
So be sensitive to yourself.
Here's how you know howmuch time you may need.
(47:46):
When it no longer feels like itjust happened five seconds ago.
When it doesn't feel fresh.
If it still feels fresh,that's not enough time.
Some people, they can takea 15 minute walk or break
and they can come back andrespond to that email, have
that follow up conversation.
Some folks need to go to lunch.
They need to eat becausethey're hangry, right?
(48:06):
Some folks need to work afull workday and then they
can come back and circle.
Some folks need to work out.
Some people needthe next morning.
Some people need a weekend.
Slide into the weekend and comeback on Monday and respond.
Whatever that is for you,be sensitive to yourself.
Here's the key.
Follow up though.
If somebody's waitingfor you, please respond.
Right?
And then finally,the E is execute.
(48:27):
Come up with a plan thatyou can execute that honors
diversity, equity, inclusion,and justice, that is anti
racist and anti oppressive.
Come up with a response that isnot reactive, that's going to
further marginalize, relegate,trivialize people's experiences
or comments or whatever, or ifnothing else, your own biases.
(48:48):
Come up with a response thatyou can check your own stuff
before you press send orbefore you follow up and have
that in person conversation.
So again, The P is forponder, the A is for ask,
the U is for understand,the S is for sensitive,
and the E is for execute.
Practice pausing.
Okay.
(49:08):
I love that.
And I will temper my own desireto expand on those things.
And I will honor thatis the one thing that we
will share with people.
I do imagine that's somethingyou probably train and you
could spend a long timeon each thing and helping
people practice that.
But I really like that.
(49:29):
I do.
that could change a lot.
I have a lot of opportunitiesfor people to reflect
and understand beforegoing into action.
So thank you for sharing that.
Absolutely.
Is there anything elseyou want to say on this
topic before we wrap up?
Ya know one of the things Iwill say is this is your work to
(49:52):
do, our individual work to do.
Individual accountability equalscollective accountability.
We cannot be married to theoutcome of what other people do.
We have to focus on what we do.
And if we are startingwith ourselves, then it's
going to ultimately shift.
Because folks are goingto start to be interested.
They're going to noticethere's a difference and that
(50:12):
can be the shift in the work,but start with self first.
This goes back to intrapersonal.
Start with yourself andthat's going to help
you interact with peopledifferently- interpersonal.
just spoke to my whole soul.
I feel like at work, Icould do that a lot better
than my personal life.
So when you said that, Iwas like, receive it for
(50:34):
yourself and you'd need, whydon't you pause Charmaine
before you do anything?
Oh my gosh.
All right.
Well, thank you so muchfor this conversation.
I, of course, I learned a lotand I honestly think this could
be so valuable for people whoactually want to do different.
Like there's so much in here.
(50:55):
So thank you forsharing your wisdom.
Absolutely.
If people want to get intouch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
Yeah, so if you areinterested in what I do,
feel free to follow me on IG.
it's at dr.
alipscomb, d r dota l i p s c o m b.
(51:16):
You can email me at alan, adouble l e n dot lipscomb, at
csun, c as in cat, s u n dot e du, and I'll be glad to respond.
thank you so much.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Perfect.
All right.
If you were listening todayand you're like, okay, I
want to do something withthis, please share the video
(51:38):
and engage in conversationswith people in your network.
Of course, like,comment, subscribe.
We really want toencourage conversation,
and learning from here.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
can visit our website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
There's access tosocial media handles.
You can email us there.
There's freebies as well.
(51:59):
I want to call attention to ourguided meditations because I
feel like that's very relevantfor today's conversation.
There's a few on there thatcan really help people in
moments when they are feelingshame or when they experience
discrimination or preparingfor hard conversations.
You'll have access to my book,Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
(52:21):
And I think that's it.
I hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks for listening orwatching and until next time.
Bye!
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