January 9, 2024 • 56 mins
In this episode of The Living Out Loud Discussion Series, I engage in a deep conversation with Jessie Prado. As one of my former students, Jessie brings a wealth of knowledge to the discussion on intersectional identities and 'isms' often overlooked in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) work. We get into topics like non-traditional family structures, ethical non-monogamy (ENM), and sizeism, and their relevance in the workspace. As an advocate for mental health and a queer Salvadorian, Jessie provides insights into their personal journey of learning and unlearning in their constant quest for professional growth. This discussion emphasizes the importance of being mindful of language, opening up dialogue, and making conscious efforts to guide these discussions on seemingly uncomfortable subjects in the DEI sphere.
Our Guest
Jessie Prado is an ASW with many interests in mental health advocacy, challenging dominant perspectives, and ongoing professional growth. Their specialization includes LGBTQIA+, BIPOC, size and non-traditional relationship structures, inclusivity, and intersectionality. They recently graduated with their MSW from California State University, Dominguez Hills, with an emphasis on community mental health, Critical Race Theory, and Intersectionality. Currently, they offer all-affirming clinical services to youths of all ages and aspire to continue or generate inclusivity conversations.
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To get in touch with Jessie Prado, you can contact them here:
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jpradoasw/
Episode Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Purpose of the Discussion 01:08 Introducing the Guest Speaker: Jessie Prado 03:59 Defining All Affirming Spaces 04:59 Addressing Power Dynamics in the Conversation 07:14 The Importance of Challenging Dominant Perspectives 12:39 Unpacking Sizeism in Workplaces 24:07 Exploring Non-Traditional Family Structures 31:45 Understanding Ethical Non-Monogamy 32:34 Implications of ENM in Workspaces 33:08 Challenging Stereotypes and Biases 35:37 The Role of Language in Inclusivity 36:05 The Importance of Open-Mindedness 43:35 The Struggles of Learning and Unlearning 43:49 The Journey of Self-Reflection 47:49 The Challenges of Being a Learner 52:03 The Power of Open Questions 55:30 Wrapping Up
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And asking myself thatquestion is really what my
(00:03):
process has been like...
what am I learning?
Who am, who is teaching me this?
Where is this stemming from?
We are in another episode ofThe Living Out Loud Discussion
Series, and today we aretalking about intersectional
identities and "isms."
the ones that we often don'ttalk about in the work of DEI.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
(00:25):
And we are openly unpackingreal life scenarios and issues
that come up in our interactionswith each other, in different
professional settings.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, opinions shared in
(00:46):
this episode, they are my ownand not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or I'm contracted by.
(01:08):
Joining me todayis Jessie Prado.
Jessie was one of my studentsin the MSW program at Dominguez
Hills, and they have such anexpertise that really challenged
me and encouraged me andinvited me to learn about things
(01:28):
more deeply, more broadly.
And, just always struckme as someone who we
need to learn from.
And I invited them to an episodeto share their expertise, how
it came about in differentexperiences in workplaces, or
maybe even college settings thatcan help us think differently
(01:48):
about the work we're doing.
And so what I'd reallylike to do is just model
what it looks like eventhough I have been doing
this work for over 10 years.
It's possible to learn frompeople who we might not
traditionally view as expertsbecause of their length of
time in the field or whateverother standards and norms
we'd like to place on it.
I've already learned fromJessie and I am certain
(02:11):
that other people can too.
So thanks for joining.
So glad that you are here.
Thank you for having me.
this is fun.
It's new for me, for sure.
I know, I know.
I'm certain that it'sa different experience.
Would you mind just sharinganything about yourself that
you would want us to know?
(02:31):
Yeah.
As you mentioned, I was astudent of yours, so I am a
recent MSW graduate from CalState Dominguez Hills that I
specialized in community mentalhealth, which has always been
one of those things that havestricken me as an important or
my calling for the most part.
I am a mental health advocate.
(02:52):
I love challengingdominant perspectives.
I feel like I will foreverbe a forever learner.
So professional growth isalways one of those things
that I aspire to put inthe forefront of what I do.
I'm, I specialized in topics onLGBTQIA plus, BIPOC, size, and
non traditional- yea we havenon traditional relationship
(03:12):
structures, intersectionality isanother specialization of mine.
I am a first generation queerSalvadorian, graduate and I'm
currently offering all affirmingspaces, of mental health or
therapeutic kind of, environmentfor youths in South LA.
(03:36):
Nice, nice.
As you were talking, I realizedthere's probably gonna be
these little moments, just likelittle nuggets that we can pull
out so people know the thingsthat we're talking about.
Because you say a lot ofwords that You say words
that people might, I know forme, I'm like, okay, I might
need to look that up, right?
I asked you a lot.
(03:57):
Can you say whatthat exactly means?
So for people who don't knowwhat all affirming is, I
think we can make assumptions.
Could you just describethat a little bit?
Yeah, so all affirming is takingevery perspective, every ism,
every walk of life into accountwhen interacting in spaces,
(04:18):
whether it's professional spaceslike being a clinician or just
even being an overall human.
Where you take into accountpeople's race, people's
spirituality, their gender,their sexual orientation,
their relationship structures.
And really encompassingall of that in the
way that you interact.
(04:38):
Okay.
Thank you.
I already was like, that's fine.
As we need to, we can do that.
I think that's alsomodeling what it looks
like to pause people andsay, Hey, can you share a
little bit more about that?
I'm certain people don'tknow what that term is.
Again, can make assumptionsabout what it means.
(04:59):
I am very aware that I was yourinstructor, and while we no
longer have that relationship,I imagine that could bring up,
I don't know, some feelingsor thoughts about our dynamic.
And I...
I don't know if anythingexists for you that would
prohibit you from showingup and being your authentic
(05:19):
self and sharing whateverit is you want to share.
But I want to name that ispart of something that exists.
So is there anything presentright now that would be
helpful for us to just liftup and be aware of that
could make it an equal space?
No, it does feellike an equal space.
I think you've providedthat from day one when I had
(05:43):
you in class, so it, as thesemester kind of progressed,
it felt more genuine.
I think at first it was for mejust reaching out because I felt
like, and we've discussed thiswhere I felt like I was still
getting my grounding andthere was a lot of inner
struggles of trying to like,name and really work through-
(06:04):
I'm also a professional.
I am also an expertin something.
So I do have thingsto contribute.
And it's just rippingthat bandaid and say,
no, I'm a contributingmember of this profession.
You, oh my gosh,you absolutely are.
I'm not the only one that waslearning from you in class.
(06:24):
It was just so manynuggets, and not just that.
You have a lot of expertise,but the way you are you, and
not necessarily hiding partsof you, you were you every day.
In your knowledge andwho you are and what
you were dealing with.
(06:45):
Sometimes you had greatdays, other days you were
not having great days andall of those were okay.
I think you really contributedto the safety that was being
built and the trust that wasbeing built in the classroom.
I don't know if you'reaware of that, but I just
remember that being likea really, cool part of
you.
I wasn't aware of that.
(07:11):
you.
Oh, I'm tellingya, I'm telling ya.
It's really cool to seethat when it happens.
All right.
I think the first place thatwe can start is, what have
been your experiences inworkplaces or college settings?
I feel like they are, collegesettings and workplaces
have very similar dynamics.
I don't think we alwaysmake that connection.
The dynamics are very similar.
(07:32):
The question is, What arethe things that you are
seeing in workplaces thataren't getting acknowledged?
There's a few things thatdo come to mind that for
me has been I'm wanting andcontinue to explore post grad.
Which is the conversationsof non traditional sort of
(07:54):
relationship structures.
What is referred to as ethicalor consensual non monogamy
or sometimes polyamory.
Which I'll just referto as ENM, and also
conversations of sizeismor even the impacts of it.
Stepping away from biologicalfamilies and putting a big
(08:15):
emphasis in chosen family.
These three topics have beenone of those things that as
I have been in, in a studentplacement, or as I was a student
at Dominguez Hills, I didn't seethat be talked about as much.
And it transferred overinto spaces where I was
a professional, where Iwas an intern and even
(08:39):
those conversations didn'treally get brought up.
While I was going to school,in the job settings, it was
things that I would bringto the table where we talked
about it and discussed it.
Or sometimes my turmoil ofwanting to bring it up made
me feel uncomfortable thatsometimes I sat with that
and realized, no, that wassomething that I should
have challenged a little.
(08:59):
So that has been whereit's been more prominent.
Being at The Center, I feellike that's where I felt amongst
my people where we talkedabout these things because
conversations of being anysort of queer in the spectrum,
like whether you were, whereveryour sexuality or gender
(09:20):
kind of land, it wasn't, itwas talked about, but I feel
like it gave space for us todiscuss other things like that.
And I think one of the thingsthat was really impactful was
sitting in a training wherewe talked about sizism and how
in a group of maybe 20, 30 ofus, there was only a handful
(09:42):
of us I mentioned that it isin their curriculum and even
then they only talked about itfor like a day or two at most.
seeing that I brought it tothe table, I brought it to
professors and we've discussedit and even then it was yeah,
like we know about that, butI'm like, we know is not the
same as let's talk about this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
(10:02):
Yeah, that's we knowracism is a thing.
We get it.
Thank you for bringingit up to us and then just
letting it stay there.
And not that racism is the sameas other things, but one of
the things that you and I hadtalked about was when we start
to make space for other partsof who we are, other identities.
(10:25):
It can really feel likethere's some sort of
competition between them.
Like they all don't get,if there's airtime here,
then that means that...
The other stuff isn'tas important, or why are
we talking about this?
Because this needsto be addressed.
And I think that all ofthere's room for everything.
(10:45):
I believe that's part of whyyou're probably getting the
responses that you're getting.
Where if you lift somethingup, the other parts that
we're really paying attentionto feel so significant.
It feels like, how am I goingto throw that in there too?
It feels like that.
Even as, as me, as someonewho does that, someone who is
(11:06):
constantly intaking information.
When you spoke in the classroomand brought up several things,
I then thought, How am I gonna,how am I gonna weave this in?
Like, how does, cause itcan't just live as you
shared it in the classroomand then it goes away.
What?
But it was a thought, activethought process and still
(11:26):
is translating to me havingto make changes later into
stuff, so I wanted to namethat this is a space where
just because we're talkingabout the things we are talking
about, we are not saying thatother stuff isn't important.
All other isms and all otherparts of our identities and
(11:46):
life experiences are verymuch important to who we are.
And depending on the person,depending on the context,
some may feel more importantor relevant at the time.
So today, we're really zoomingin on what you are bringing to
the table is something we justhave not been thinking about.
And it could be helpful too,because you're talking about
(12:07):
terms, again, that I believea good amount of people know,
but in terms of like workspacesor college settings, it's
not talked about enough towhere we can really understand
what we're talking about.
So I'd really like to start to,unpack what those are for a bit.
And then like, how they evenshow, like, why is it even
(12:28):
relevant to employees today?
Yeah.
And so that way we can likereally paint a good picture
of why this is relevant forpeople to even be aware of.
So when you, I thinkthe first thing you were
talking about was, let'sjust start with sizeism.
Sizeism is a thing.
We can make assumptions.
Could you justshare what that is?
(12:48):
And like, why does itmatter to people at work?
Yeah.
For sizeism, a big part ofit is just understanding that
there's a lot of systemicbarriers for folks that
are not within the means ofwhat's considered healthy.
Which in it, the word initself has changed for years.
So we think about howhealth was seen back in the
(13:11):
20th century, not the 20thcentury, but the 1920s being.
What would be considered alittle bit on like the fluffier
side where there was a littlebit more fat in someone's
body was considered healthy.
Whereas now having any sort of alarge percentage of I'm getting
(13:32):
stuck, but just even having likea bigger body was or is seen
currently as being unhealthyor having more health issues.
So when we think of sizeism,we think about it in how it
comes up in environments of, orin spaces of privilege, right?
(13:52):
So thinking about spaces whereyou go to the movie theater,
someone that is of a slimmerbody doesn't necessarily have
to think about am I going tobe able to fit in the seat?
Whereas someone that's a littlebit larger bodied would have
these thoughts of, okay, so if Ican't sit here, how can I adjust
my body to fit in this space?
That's an example ofwhere it shows up.
(14:13):
Another way can be thinkingabout having access to certain
things like life insurance.
Where someone that's in abigger body that there's a lot
of concerns of health issues.
So then that might be that thepolicy would be more expensive
for someone that is of a largerbody than a smaller body.
So then, when we think ofsizeism is really considering
(14:34):
in what spaces or in whatenvironments does someone
in a bigger body have toconsider multiple aspects that
someone that has a smallerbody doesn't really have that
mental space to really processor really even consider Oh,
am I going to be able to, goon a plane ride and consider
having to purchase two tickets?
(14:56):
So in those spaces, it'sreally considering sizeism
it's just the overarchingism of not taking all
people's bodies into account.
So really unpacking that,addressing that, and
really just focusing onhaving those conversations
of why is that an issue?
Why is that a concern?
(15:17):
Yes...
Yeah as you were talking,I'm just, I'm thinking about
so many different situationsthat I've seen in various
professional settings where,comments are made, It's,
they're not part of theinclusive umbrella oftentimes.
So when I say that, itcan mean a lot of things.
It can mean something assimple as when we're doing
trainings, there's notlike a real diversity of
(15:38):
different body types in theimages that we're using.
That's just one very, verysmall, tangible thing.
But I think what I hear,it's more what I hear
Yeah.
probably than anything else,how the words that we use
to refer to people, jokeswe make, compliments that we
give people that reinforcethe preference for smaller
(16:03):
body sizes, and these types ofcomments exist all the time.
And just to give like supertangible example for people.
I know that...
if there are comments aboutpraising people for losing
weight, saying that theylook good, saying that they
look healthier, tellingthem to keep doing what
(16:23):
they're, whatever it is, andthat's just to one person.
We don't know what that person'sjourney is or what that means.
We don't know what it meansto other people around.
But in that moment, we reallyare sending the message
to people that if you aregetting smaller, that means
a lot of great things.
And therefore that alsomeans some other stuff for
people that might not be inthat particular category.
(16:48):
That's just one example.
There are so many things thatare said and done, and I'm
thinking about the impactof people in these settings.
The impact of the messageis that there's something
wrong with your body, youdon't look good, you're
not a healthy person,you're not whatever it is.
There are messages thatwe are sending to people
(17:09):
without really realizing it.
So the language that we use torefer to people, our frame of
reference, the jokes we makehave an impact that we're not
really paying attention to.
So I wanted to lift that upand I imagine that you've
seen, experienced, whatever,like some versions of this.
So anything youwant to add to that?
(17:31):
Yeah, for, and I also want totake into account that it's
not just about like folks thatare in larger body, but also
taking into account folks thathave much, much smaller bodies
that folks don't necessarilyeven consider as healthy.
So, um, a lot of times, evenpraising folks that are of much
(17:52):
slimmer bodies and not takinginto account that maybe the
person struggling with tryingto gain weight and being of what
would be more of a healthierappearance or healthier
physiological where their bodywould need to be at because
there's biological factors.
There's sometimes traumathat comes into effect so
I do also want to take intoaccount that the opposite
(18:15):
spectrum is also there.
And there's issues wheresometimes we praise folks that
are much smaller bodies andletting them know, hey, what
are you doing to, continuebeing so small and not taking
into account that just evenasking a simple question like
that can be very impactful.
(18:36):
And there's, it's notjust necessarily in just
being in a bigger body.
It's, it comes in spaces thatis pretty much overarching
that you are not in the, Idon't want to call it in the
middle because there is nonecessarily middle, but it's
just what we see as healthierbodies continues to shift.
(18:58):
So in those places, I wantto also take into account
that it's not just aboutthe bigger bodies, it's
also the other end of it.
And I'm, I feel like a lot of itis through that training that I
learned a lot of that language,a lot of that understanding
that, being very mindfulof the words that we use.
(19:18):
And sometimes understandingthat certain words
don't work for everyone.
There's going to be folks thatif you say heavy, you might
just bring up things for them.
Whereas for other people,even just saying the word
bigger body or larger body.
It's just that language, itcontinues to shift because
(19:38):
it's trying to find that goodmedium always becomes an issue.
So in those ways, I see myselfreally trying to learn a lot
of like, okay, this works forfolks, this doesn't work for
folks, and how can I continueto like, be very intentional
about the words that I use.
Whether that means thatI have to take a moment
(19:59):
to like really process.
Okay.
What am I trying to bring?
What am I trying to say?
Without just going straight toand when with something that
you mentioned going straightinto complementing their
struggles of losing weight oreven understanding that it's not
always about weight and steppingaway from that and really
(20:21):
taking into account that becausethere's such a large issue with,
or there's such a large topicon really focusing on people's
weights and people bodies thatthis is why it's odd where
there's a lot of normalizingtalking about losing weight.
(20:42):
But there's not a lot ofnormalizing about how do we
step away from that and reallyfocus on why is that an issue?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for widening ourview on even this topic.
This is a really good example,I think, of being inclusive
about the things we're beinginclusive about the things
(21:03):
we are being inclusive about.
And, yea, I'm alsojust thinking...
when these conversations comeup often makes me think, like,
why are we talking about?
Sometimes it might matter if wehave personal relationships and
we know what it is that we'retalking about or checking out.
(21:25):
Sometimes it makes sense.
But I'm not talkingabout like those types
of situations, you know.
It could be like an allstaff meeting or in a, an
individual, whatever it is.
They just come up in theselike really interesting ways
that don't always make senseto even say, like, why do
we have to say something?
What's up with the commentabout, it's not a necessary
(21:48):
addition to the conversation.
Sometimes it's not even anaddition to the conversation.
It's just a personal thought wewant to say out loud to people.
So it does make me thinkabout being aware of too.
Why are we even, doesn't makesense for this context at all.
Am I just adding it inand why am I doing that?
And where is it coming from?
(22:08):
And what is the impactfeels incredibly important.
And you're right.
There's enough information andpeople telling their stories out
there now to know that a bodytype does not indicate health or
wellness in any shape or form.
Like the most, there areso many of the most fit,
(22:30):
healthy people in the worldwho are sharing that at their
fittest there, they weretheir most unhealthiest.
So there's, it's a supercomplex part of people.
And our comments aboutit are often unwarranted,
unnecessary, not helpful,not context appropriate.
(22:52):
So if there's any like tangiblething to, to, I think there's
a lot of tangible things.
One of the things isif you're in like these
professional settings, Ithink it's helpful to think
about why is this happening?
Does it belong here?
What's the impact?
And the other thing I'm justreally honing in on from
what you were saying is itis super individualized,
as many other things.
(23:13):
We're going to keep learninglanguages as it evolves,
and people are going tohave their preferences for
how to refer to things.
As you're talking, I'm pickingup on the language that you
prefer, but I also acknowledgethat when people listen
to this, the words aren'tgoing to work for everybody.
That's okay.
We're normalizing talkingabout it, and I would hope
that people continue to sharethe things that work for them.
(23:34):
Because it's not a competIt's not a competition of
which one is more important,it's what, this is why
relationships are important.
This is why we really lean inwith relational DEI because we
need to know the people and whothey are to interact with them
in a way that's responsive towho we are as unique people.
(23:57):
So I thank you for taking that.
I don't know if it was,I don't even know if
we planned to do that.
I just, thank you.
It comes up so much.
The other thing you mentionedwas the, non traditional
relationships, not nontraditional families.
(24:17):
And if we could talk aboutthat too and why that's
relevant to the workplace, Iimagine we'll touch on some
similar things in terms ofeverybody's individualized.
But can we just expand alittle bit, like when we say
non traditional families,what is this entailing?
So in terms of, you weretalking about in workspaces and
(24:41):
nontraditional families, I guessthe way that I was initially
thinking about that- I wasthinking about it more in the
spaces of educational purposes,and I think when I really
started thinking about how itshows up in workspaces, I'm
still working on that myself.
Like how do we haveconversations of not wanting
to be close to relativesthat traditionally are seen
(25:06):
as, this is your parent.
You need to be closeto them or you need to
take them into account.
And a lot of it is having tounderstand and really sit with
folks on letting them just telltheir stories and not pushing
these ideas of, that's your mom.
Why do you not, likeinviting these conversations
that people might notnecessarily be comfortable
(25:27):
talking about, becausethere's a lot of it there.
There can be just disconnectswith family members based on
conflicts, based on traumas,based on experiences, based on
just really understanding thatas we start getting more in
tune on where we are, developingour interests, developing
(25:48):
ourselves as individuals.
We, to some degree, startlearning that it is okay
to choose having these verystrict boundaries around
who and what you're willingto invite into your life.
And in workspaces, sometimesit can be very difficult
talking about not reallyengaging in family events.
(26:11):
And what comes to mindsometimes it's holidays and
just talking about oh, whatare you going to do with?
You know, are you goingto go visit your families
during the winter?
Are you going to go visit yourfamily during Thanksgiving?
And in itself, when inworkspaces, taking these
things into account on how dowe invite conversations and
(26:32):
normalizing that sometimesfolks don't necessarily need
to go out and spend achinghours with, biological families
or blood family, that reallyjust feels like it's over
at overly taxing for them.
So that's in how I see havingthese type of conversations
(26:54):
come up in workspaces, whereasin more on the higher ed, I
think that there isn't muchfocus on teaching folks the
importance of chosen family.
For myself, I see it more inspaces or with people that
identify in any sort of likeLGBTQIA+ community where a
(27:15):
lot of it is finding yourpeople, finding the people
that really feel like familyand really using them as a
representation of you feelingcomfortable, of finding a safe
space for you to be able togrow and develop where you're
stepping away from rejection.
You're stepping awayfrom having to feel like
you're not good enough.
(27:37):
So in higher education,I feel like there isn't
a curriculum on that.
There isn't talks aboutthe importance on that.
And if there is, it'sjust always very limited.
In the sense of oh yeah,sometimes chosen family
can be very important forfolks and then we move on.
and there needs to be more.
There needs to be moretalks and more discussions
on why is that a thing?
Why is that important?
(27:58):
Why can't we normalize nothaving to feel like folks need
to just stick to their familystructures that have to do with
the folks that birthed them?
Or the familiesare based on blood.
So in those settings, that'swhere I feel like it's really
important to really havethese types of discussions.
And even understanding thatthe chosen family can sometimes
(28:20):
have people that are relativesthat they themselves can
choose to just say, Hey,these are my top five folks.
And maybe only two of themare really my blood folks.
And the rest of them are peoplethat I've met that have really
helped develop me as who I am.
Yeah, like, all your, really,if I just took everything
that you said and just,conceptualized it for myself,
(28:43):
it's a great example of howthis is another complex part.
When we talk aboutintersectional identities,
every part of who we arehas its own complexities.
And if I were to zoom outand think, okay, I'm someone,
I'm a professional, or I'mtrying to do differently.
(29:04):
What does thisreally mean for me?
What I was hearing in thereis something I see a lot,
and that's people ask alot of leading questions.
And we could be better aboutasking more open questions.
So we're going to talk Sowhen I say leading question,
we ask, are you going togo do this with family?
Are you going to, we askquestions with our lens.
(29:26):
And we we already put likea category on it because
we associate holiday, I'mjust going to use yours,
holidays with families.
Which could be the casefor a lot of people.
It could be the casefor you, but isn't the
case for everybody.
When we ask leading questions,we could unintentionally be
bringing some stuff up forpeople that we don't know.
(29:49):
Developing our ability to askmore open questions, curious
questions that gives peoplespace to answer, outside
of the box that we set forthem can be very helpful
if there's time coming up.
I know I've still been workingon it when time's coming up.
I don't even know peoplecelebrate the things
that I'd be celebrating.
(30:09):
I'll be like, Hey, wehave some time coming up.
And in my mind is coming thequestion is coming out to just
ask exactly what you're saying.
It's literally processing.
And I'm like, don't ask.
So then I say stuff thatsounds like, Hey, we
have some time coming up.
Do you got any plans going on?
It's just, do you gotany plans going on?
(30:30):
You can say whatever you want.
Whatever.
But if I ask, Hey,Thanksgiving is coming up.
Are you spending it?
It's not only is it thefamily, it's the Thanksgiving.
There's other partsgoing on here.
Something that people couldreally do is learn to ask
open questions that donot put people in a box.
(30:51):
And then you don't have to worryso much about saying the wrong
thing, doing the wrong thing.
You get to hear how people areexplaining their lives to you.
And then you can usethe words that they're
using to engage back.
Because if I asked you thesimilar question and said, Hey,
there's some time coming up.
Do you have any plans?
(31:12):
Anything you're excited about?
Maybe not excited about, you'regoing to say whatever you say.
I'm going to gohere with, my wife.
I'm going to go here with.
Blah, blah, blah.
Or no, I'm not goingto do anything.
It's going to bea terrible time.
Whatever you decideto say, you can say.
So I know, let mejust stop there.
I think I can go in alot of different places.
(31:33):
I tend to do that in my mind.
But that was just like, we don'thave to put people in boxes
when we're talking to them.
We can use way more openlanguage and just be fine.
Be just fine.
Last little piece is the, yousaid ENM, ethical non monogamy.
Yes.
So same thing, Whatare we talking about?
(31:53):
And then we'll draw theconnection to why does
this even matter at work?
Yeah, so for ENM there'sso much, and I'm also still
learning a lot from it.
And a lot of it comes frompersonal experiences of leading
groups, leading conversations,and leading in the most minimal
way, because it's really mesitting and listening to these
(32:16):
folks that are experiencing itevery single day of their lives,
and me understanding that.
A lot of it, I've started tounderstand myself on where I
fit in that and how it's comeup or has not come up in a lot
of spaces where I feel like it'sreally important to talk about.
When I think about it inworkspaces, a lot of it has
(32:37):
to do with simple thingslike, for example, who are you
bringing to the company picnic?
Who are you bringing to talkabout going on holidays with?
It just, there's so manynuances and a lot of
it stems from biases.
A lot of it stems from,these stereotypes of what
(32:59):
ENM relationship styles looklike or what are their quote
unquote underlining reasons forwanting to engage in these sort
of relationship structures.
And a lot of it is justreally based around biases of
sexuality and wanting to bemore explorative in terms of
who they want to engage in thoseacts with, or these ideas of
(33:21):
wanting to be just unfaithful.
And it doesn't reallystem from that.
It stems a lot from having theseconnected relationships with
folks that traditionally mightbe frowned upon because we think
about relationship privilege.
We think about how, wethink of relationships being
just two individuals beingromantically together, and
(33:45):
it's not always like that.
So in professional space, inprofessional spaces, it really
comes up in like discussingwhat it looks like to have
a coworker that might havemultiple partners and stepping
away from- and this goes beyondjust like ENM also considering
(34:05):
just sexuality as a factor,like stepping away from using
terms like wife and husbandto going with spouses or
significant others or whatever
that might feel morecomfortable to say.
Because stepping away from that,you're allowing folks to explore
where they might be comfortabledisclosing their relationship
(34:28):
structures with you.
And in professional settingsor in workspaces, it comes up
not only in the conversationsthat we have, but also comes
up in where we start offeringlike health insurance and
where privilege or a coupleprivilege comes in that.
Where a lot of times it'snot giving an option of
(34:49):
okay, when you start signingup for health insurance,
it has to be a significantother or your dependents.
So it doesn't give a lot ofleeway to think about I'm
having these other folks thatI want to put into my life
that I want to allow them tohave coverage and you can't
because it just isn't offered.
Or sometimes it's not wantingto engage in these conversations
(35:12):
because of a lot of thatthe comments that are made.
A lot of the not wanting tocome up in these spaces or come
out in these spaces that it'snot traditionally talked about.
So when I think about what orhow to engage those type of
conversations in workspacesis being open and intentional
(35:34):
about not only the languagethat we use, but also
intentional in havinga very open mind.
Without having to have tosay these additional comments
of, oh, but isn't your, yoursignificant other going to
get upset because you'reseeing someone else more.
A lot of it has to do withunderstanding that even in
(35:55):
folks in non traditionalsort of relationships or ENM
relationships, It's different,it looks different for everyone.
Being curious isreally important.
Being mindful of sittingand taking that in, again
going, stepping away fromreally wanting to say
something or throwing yourideas of what it looks like.
(36:16):
Allowing them to guide youin what they're willing to,
one, share with you, and two,sitting with that, sitting
with it is really hardsometimes for individuals
and acknowledging that.
But also understandingthat folks might not
want to be your teachers.
They might not want to teachyou what this looks like and
really being okay with that.
(36:37):
Which means not askingextra questions about
what it is that they dowith certain folks or not.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you.
I, yeah.
I, sorry, I have abunch of thoughts.
I'm thinking about things thatI've seen and heard myself.
(36:58):
And in some way, like the othertopics we're talking about,
not having to ask these likeleading questions or does it
even make sense to even ask someof the things that we're asking?
We ask people in, we ask peoplein non monogamous relationships
things and questions wewouldn't ask other people.
Sometimes it can make senseif you're in a conversation
(37:19):
and it makes sense.
But we just got a lot oflike wonderings and questions
that we've just asked becauseof the things we think.
And then what I've seen alot though is because of
the bias, because the thingsthat we associate with
non monogamy comes so muchjudgment and it comes out.
I've seen it come out, whetherpeople want it to or not.
(37:42):
There are beliefs thatpeople have and it's
cool if people have theirbeliefs, there's no problem.
I have mine too.
It doesn't mean thatmy belief somehow means
that theirs is wrong.
Mine is right for me,theirs is right for them.
And there's so much aboutethical non monogamy that
people don't understand.
(38:04):
Like how people even arrive tothese different relationships.
What goes into creating them andmaintaining them, and how other
people know what's going on.
There's just so many thingsthat people don't know.
I think a really goodstarting point for people
is to learn about it.
It's not something that people,I think people associate, I'm
going to learn about ethicalnon monogamy if I'm interested
(38:24):
in to me people associate itwith sex therapy or something,
or kink, it's like over here.
It's in this bucket, it'sfine, it can be in the
bucket I guess, otherthings can be in the bucket.
But it's not a thing tohave over in a bucket with
some other stuff off to theside, like all of those are
(38:45):
parts of people that peopledo very intentionally,
safely, ethically.
It's not what peopleare thinking it is.
And so at work, if you are aprofessional, I think a great
starting point, if you don'teven know what this stuff is,
I really think you should learnit because you said bias, like
(39:07):
the bias that we associate
particularly with this, just,it's just so not what it is.
Step one, pleaselearn what that means.
And then two, like the otherstuff that we're talking
about, be aware of thelanguage that we're using.
Are we putting people intoboxes with the language?
(39:29):
Spouse is a great change.
And sometimes people don'teven want to get married.
And that's fine too.
It's fine.
Just being really awareof what we're using.
So if we say, are there anyimportant people in your life?
People can answer thathowever they choose to.
I could be like,yeah, I have my cat.
(39:50):
That's what I'm tryingto tell you today.
I have a cat that's in my life.
I know it's a person, butnot a person, but that's
the answer to the question.
It's just, get good atasking open questions
and let people answer it.
And then, you know, wherethey're comfortable going
and not, we don't haveto put people into boxes.
When we ask open questions,we help model what it looks
(40:14):
like to be curious andnot put people in boxes.
And then for other peoplearound, because we could
be having individualconversations in a group space.
We could be facilitating anexperience with multiple people.
And when we come in withthese boxes, we could be
doing so much unintentionalstuff to people around.
So much because we don'tknow what people's stories
(40:36):
are or struggles orwhatever it was that got
them to where they're at.
Get really good atasking open questions.
Let's just, I just learnedhow to do that in practice.
Yeah, also being veryintentional about the
things that we use in thelanguage that's being used.
Being very mindful ofquestions that generate
conversations of oh, let's,let's do icebreakers, right?
(40:59):
being very intentional inthat and reassessing, in what
ways are any of the thingsthat we do, any of the tools
that we use, being inclusiveto folks that might not be
in traditional or in nonmonogamous relationships.
The same thing that comes intomind is even being mindful
of the tools that we use infamilies and thinking about,
(41:21):
who they would identifyas part of their families.
So really being more intentionalof taking a step back and really
exploring where are the gapsand why are the gaps there and
how can we make sure that thelanguage that we're using is
leaving it, as you mentioned,these very open questions.
don't start withwhat is your gender?
(41:42):
Leaving a space that'sopen if possible for folks
to be able to write whatthat looks like for them.
What is your relationship orwhat is your status, right?
Being very intentional abouthaving these spaces where if it
feels like it's warranted to putlike single, married, et cetera,
having a space where folkscan type in what feels
comfortable for them toidentify themselves as.
(42:04):
Hmm.
I'm thinking about like socialservice organizations and,
there are going to be somechanges that agencies can make.
And if you can do it.
Then there's some where I'mthinking, I'm just thinking
about a response, right?
Like social service agencies,there's forms they have to use.
And like, we can'tchange, I get that.
And there's also nothingwrong before giving
(42:26):
somebody something to say.
There's terminology onhere that's it's not
terribly inclusive.
And I'm sorry I'm having touse this, but please know
that this paper is here toserve like this particular
purpose, but that doesn't meanif you don't fit into these,
that there isn't space foryou to be able to share like
(42:49):
what, who you like, not whatyou are, but who you are.
So use it in the waythat you need to as well.
And I'm happy to talk withyou about any of the stuff
that isn't quite making sense.
Cause I want tolearn more about you.
We can say those things.
So if we have to use toolsthat aren't necessarily with
the times, that doesn't meanthat we just have to keep doing
(43:10):
things the way that we do it.
It's okay to use oldtools till they're updated
and frame it right.
And sometimes the toolsaren't relevant anymore.
So I'm not talking aboutthose unrelevant tools.
There's I don't even know ifthat's a word, but tools that
are old that shouldn't beused, please don't use them.
But if we have to, forsome reason, we can
still talk about it.
(43:30):
Yeah.
Jessie, you obviously have alot of knowledge in these areas.
I'm really curious, likehow did you arrive to
this place of knowingthe things that you know?
And what was your own processof learning or unlearning
things, whatever that was?
So how did I come to unlearn?
I feel like I'm stillunlearning a lot of it and.
(43:53):
I honor and I reallyfeel privileged to be in
a space where I'm stilllike a baby social worker.
And I continue to stay reallycurious about what, not only
what conversations aroundsize or conversations around
relationship structures oreven family, just really being
(44:14):
curious about what I know andchallenging what I know because
that is what my process isto unlearning a lot of this.
And being very fortunate ofbeing able to be in spaces
where I can explore whatthat impact looks like.
Which I feel like a lot of it,I have to thank my opportunity
(44:36):
to intern at the LA LGBTCenter because that's where
the spaces were provided forme to explore these topics that
have always been an interestof mine, but either didn't
have the mental space to reallyexplore it or just didn't feel
like it was something that Ineeded to do at that moment.
So being in that space, Iwas able to get a lot of
(44:59):
knowledge that my peers didn't.
And so that, that kind offelt like I can be that
person to generate theseconversations, to guide these
conversations, to bring it atthe table and just be like,
do what you can with that.
I'm really grateful for thepeople in my life that have
allowed me to be myself andexplore what that looks like.
(45:21):
which, even though it wasn'tnecessarily in the curriculum,
I feel like a lot of the timesmy professors were really
good about like, all right,Jessie, let's talk about this.
You brought it to the table.
So it has generated thiscommunity learning for
myself and my peers in thespaces that I have been in.
I don't know what it looks likeoutside of that, but I know that
(45:42):
is where I've made sense of it.
Where I realized, yeah,this is a topic that
needs to be talked about.
This is a topic that whyaren't we talking about
it in our curriculum?
Why aren't we talking aboutit in professional settings
that we, especially incommunity settings where
we're serving people.
we're trying to be thesemodels of what inclusivity
(46:07):
looks like, right?
These models of having thesevery tough conversations that
is inclusive to all, but thenunderstanding that, are we?
And asking myself thatquestion is really what
my process has been like.
It's been asking those questionsof, what am I learning?
Who am, who is teaching me this?
(46:27):
Where is this stemming from?
And that has really becomethat foundation for me to keep
exploring and honing down onwhat I want to bring to not
only the profession as a socialworker, but the profession
as someone that I ultimatelywant to go and be like,
Hey, let's have these talksbecause no one else is really
(46:48):
comfortable in bringing them up.
And I want to be okaywith being uncomfortable.
It's that shared knowledge.
It's knowing that some folksmight not be comfortable
with it and that's okay.
You, there are some peoplein the world who are like,
(47:10):
totally fine with thatspace of whatever, I'm
going to learn stuff andI might not know it all.
And when I hear it,I'm going to, shift.
And I believe I'mone of those people.
But the reason I'm reallybringing this up is because
I believe that people, seepeople like us and think that
(47:31):
it's easy or without struggle.
I don't know about you.
I'm about to ask you about you,but for me, while I'm fine with
having this stance, it's notalways, it's not always easy.
It like really requires meto be, what am I going to
do with this information?
That's some, Ihave my own thing.
(47:52):
I'm wondering, could you,if you, first, if, is this
a thing that you experience?
And if you could share thestruggle too, I think it,
not that we're not human, butI really think that people
need to understand we're,we understand it's hard too.
Have you had any strugglemoments with your learning
process, even thoughyou are okay with it?
(48:14):
Yes.
I, yes.
A short answer.
Yes.
Um, And\ I think a big partof it does come with, being
a person of color, beingqueer, being all of these
intersectional identities thatbrings a lot of isms in my life.
That sometimes I've really madeit difficult for me to want to
(48:35):
bring up these conversations.
And continue to learn frommyself that, I'm, my expertise
really lie in a lot of mylived experiences and in my
willingness to want to bringin these conversations or
bringing it to the table aswhatever might come out of.
(48:56):
And it's hard, it's still hardwhen I think of spaces where
I'm someone that's new and howmuch of rocking the boat can I
really do, without necessarilyhaving to feel like here, I've
only been here for a week.
This is what I think needsto get changed, right?
And in those ways, it stillfeels like I'm still having to
(49:18):
sit with being uncomfortable,or even bringing up, being
my own little cheerleaderwhen someone has to do it,
and if it's not you, no oneelse is going to do that.
And I don't necessarily saythat in the sense where I have
to be the only one that hasto bring those conversations
into the table and spacesthat I'm in and recognizing
that sometimes that does comewith my own sets of privileges
(49:40):
because of not only my livedexperience, but also going to
a graduate program, having apopulation in my school that
is primarily folks of color andus all talking and discussing
what our lived experiencehas been in this field.
I'm more comfortable in bringingthem up versus in other spaces
(50:02):
where I'm the new personthere and how can I bring that
without feeling like it ismy quote unquote duty to do?
Yes, I can, I get that a lot.
I want to add just one morelayer to that question and
do, and ask it to model whatit looks like for the true,
like inward reflection.
(50:23):
Have there been anystruggles with, like you as
a learner, like you learningthese different things?
Yes.
Anything there to helpnormalize that process too.
Yeah, my, a lot of, thebiases that come with
any of this, right?
Or the, that uncomfortablefeeling of Who am I versus a
(50:49):
sea of everyone else, right?
Who am I who hasn't reallypublished someone who's new
to this field, who's reallystill finding that power in
what I'm, what I know, andwhat I know is still something
that's important to be said.
A lot of the struggles comefrom knowing that there's
a limited background in thesense of what I know, right?
(51:13):
I am still trying to findmore in terms of who I am as
someone that wants to continuethe conversations of size.
Or even just having a bad daywhere I feel like, how do I
come out of that funk to wantto have, these discussions?
Or not even having thatmental capacity and having
to understand that itdoesn't have to fall on me.
(51:34):
There are good daysand there are bad days.
There are good days where I'mlike, okay with knowing that.
It's engaging in, inconversations with others.
And normalizing that for myselfis really a big part of it.
Yes.
Thank you.
Yeah, that was like really coolto hear and I appreciate you
going there because I think it'shelpful for people to see like
(51:56):
what the self reflection lookslike and just have a peek inside
of someone's learning process.
I think that before we wrap up,is there anything else that we
will want to share with people?
Tools to add to their toolbox?
Sitting with beinguncomfortable.
That's a big one for me.
(52:17):
because I'm still processingwhat that looks like
and how I model that.
Also being very intentionabout having these
conversations with individuals.
I think sometimes there'sa lot of what feels like
talking to people, right?
Here's what I've learned.
This is what I, this iswhat you need to do, right?
(52:37):
Whereas now it feelslike let's collaborate.
Having that open mind,understanding that because
you're sitting with thatand you're having these open
discussions with individuals,you're collaborating, you're
finding ways to challenge thesebeliefs that we might have about
what size looks like, what nonmonogamous looks like, what
(53:01):
family structures look like.
Yeah.
Yes.
I completely agree.
Building people's capacityto be in discomfort is.
Oh my goodness.
Required.
I think is the bestway I could say that.
It's required.
None of this stuff is goingto always feel good and we are
(53:24):
going to always be learning.
We are.
I learned some things today too.
To me, I've already saidit a couple times in our
convo, the biggest thingto me that people...
If you learn to phrase yourquestions much more openly,
that means you would haveto think about how your
(53:47):
questions are framed andwhy they're framed that way.
But if you really learnto practice that, like I
said, like it, the things gothrough my mind with my lens.
And then I have to realize,okay, that's what I think.
How can I ask an open question?
So I'm not saying, don'tengage with people if
you don't understand it.
It's not that when you canask open questions, you're
(54:08):
going to release yourselfof a lot of like the boxes
that we put people in.
Definitely.
And if the goal is you'rewanting to connect with people,
learn who they are, have betterworking relationships, whatever
it is, and you open a much widerspace for them to fill it, you
(54:32):
can understand the uniquenessof people in a much different
way, a much different way.
Like I, to me, that'slike the top of the list.
And I hadn't necessarilythought about teaching that as
a tool, but that's a tool thatI believe I will be teaching.
I honestly, I appreciatethis conversation.
(54:54):
It really it reallylifted it up for me.
It's just a thing thatpeople could really learn.
Imagine, just imagine ifpeople learned how to ask
way open, way more openquestions, what would happen?
Even in the areas we're talkingabout, the areas we're not
talking about, and people got tofill in the space on their own.
Game changer.
(55:16):
Thank you so much for beinghere with me and, get me to
really think you always do that.
You always get me thinking.
I am certain that people willbenefit from this conversation.
So if people want to get intouch with you, what is the
best way they can do that?
Alrighty.
They can check meout on LinkedIn.
(55:38):
I will link your LinkedInin the description.
All right.
if you are listening tothis and found it valuable,
please share this episodewith people in your network.
share, subscribe on whateverplatform is good with you.
We're really encouraging,engaging in dialogue around the
(55:58):
discussions that we're having.
So take this and engagein discussions with the
people in your network.
That could be a supervisor,your teams, anybody.
But just talk about what we'retalking about and figure out
like what that means for you.
If you want to get in touch withme, you can go to my website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, there's...
(56:18):
all kinds of freebies.
You can have access to my book,Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
You got links to all my socialsand wherever you are, I can be.
Let's be connected.
Thank you so much forlistening or watching and
I hope to connect soon.
Until then, bye!
And asking myself thatquestion is really what my
(00:03):
process has been like...
what am I learning?
Who am, who is teaching me this?
Where is this stemming from?
We are in another episode ofThe Living Out Loud Discussion
Series, and today we aretalking about intersectional
identities and "isms."
the ones that we often don'ttalk about in the work of DEI.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
(00:25):
And we are openly unpackingreal life scenarios and issues
that come up in our interactionswith each other, in different
professional settings.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, opinions shared in
(00:46):
this episode, they are my ownand not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or I'm contracted by.
(01:08):
Joining me todayis Jessie Prado.
Jessie was one of my studentsin the MSW program at Dominguez
Hills, and they have such anexpertise that really challenged
me and encouraged me andinvited me to learn about things
(01:28):
more deeply, more broadly.
And, just always struckme as someone who we
need to learn from.
And I invited them to an episodeto share their expertise, how
it came about in differentexperiences in workplaces, or
maybe even college settings thatcan help us think differently
(01:48):
about the work we're doing.
And so what I'd reallylike to do is just model
what it looks like eventhough I have been doing
this work for over 10 years.
It's possible to learn frompeople who we might not
traditionally view as expertsbecause of their length of
time in the field or whateverother standards and norms
we'd like to place on it.
I've already learned fromJessie and I am certain
(02:11):
that other people can too.
So thanks for joining.
So glad that you are here.
Thank you for having me.
this is fun.
It's new for me, for sure.
I know, I know.
I'm certain that it'sa different experience.
Would you mind just sharinganything about yourself that
you would want us to know?
(02:31):
Yeah.
As you mentioned, I was astudent of yours, so I am a
recent MSW graduate from CalState Dominguez Hills that I
specialized in community mentalhealth, which has always been
one of those things that havestricken me as an important or
my calling for the most part.
I am a mental health advocate.
(02:52):
I love challengingdominant perspectives.
I feel like I will foreverbe a forever learner.
So professional growth isalways one of those things
that I aspire to put inthe forefront of what I do.
I'm, I specialized in topics onLGBTQIA plus, BIPOC, size, and
non traditional- yea we havenon traditional relationship
(03:12):
structures, intersectionality isanother specialization of mine.
I am a first generation queerSalvadorian, graduate and I'm
currently offering all affirmingspaces, of mental health or
therapeutic kind of, environmentfor youths in South LA.
(03:36):
Nice, nice.
As you were talking, I realizedthere's probably gonna be
these little moments, just likelittle nuggets that we can pull
out so people know the thingsthat we're talking about.
Because you say a lot ofwords that You say words
that people might, I know forme, I'm like, okay, I might
need to look that up, right?
I asked you a lot.
(03:57):
Can you say whatthat exactly means?
So for people who don't knowwhat all affirming is, I
think we can make assumptions.
Could you just describethat a little bit?
Yeah, so all affirming is takingevery perspective, every ism,
every walk of life into accountwhen interacting in spaces,
(04:18):
whether it's professional spaceslike being a clinician or just
even being an overall human.
Where you take into accountpeople's race, people's
spirituality, their gender,their sexual orientation,
their relationship structures.
And really encompassingall of that in the
way that you interact.
(04:38):
Okay.
Thank you.
I already was like, that's fine.
As we need to, we can do that.
I think that's alsomodeling what it looks
like to pause people andsay, Hey, can you share a
little bit more about that?
I'm certain people don'tknow what that term is.
Again, can make assumptionsabout what it means.
(04:59):
I am very aware that I was yourinstructor, and while we no
longer have that relationship,I imagine that could bring up,
I don't know, some feelingsor thoughts about our dynamic.
And I...
I don't know if anythingexists for you that would
prohibit you from showingup and being your authentic
(05:19):
self and sharing whateverit is you want to share.
But I want to name that ispart of something that exists.
So is there anything presentright now that would be
helpful for us to just liftup and be aware of that
could make it an equal space?
No, it does feellike an equal space.
I think you've providedthat from day one when I had
(05:43):
you in class, so it, as thesemester kind of progressed,
it felt more genuine.
I think at first it was for mejust reaching out because I felt
like, and we've discussed thiswhere I felt like I was still
getting my grounding andthere was a lot of inner
struggles of trying to like,name and really work through-
(06:04):
I'm also a professional.
I am also an expertin something.
So I do have thingsto contribute.
And it's just rippingthat bandaid and say,
no, I'm a contributingmember of this profession.
You, oh my gosh,you absolutely are.
I'm not the only one that waslearning from you in class.
(06:24):
It was just so manynuggets, and not just that.
You have a lot of expertise,but the way you are you, and
not necessarily hiding partsof you, you were you every day.
In your knowledge andwho you are and what
you were dealing with.
(06:45):
Sometimes you had greatdays, other days you were
not having great days andall of those were okay.
I think you really contributedto the safety that was being
built and the trust that wasbeing built in the classroom.
I don't know if you'reaware of that, but I just
remember that being likea really, cool part of
you.
I wasn't aware of that.
(07:11):
you.
Oh, I'm tellingya, I'm telling ya.
It's really cool to seethat when it happens.
All right.
I think the first place thatwe can start is, what have
been your experiences inworkplaces or college settings?
I feel like they are, collegesettings and workplaces
have very similar dynamics.
I don't think we alwaysmake that connection.
The dynamics are very similar.
(07:32):
The question is, What arethe things that you are
seeing in workplaces thataren't getting acknowledged?
There's a few things thatdo come to mind that for
me has been I'm wanting andcontinue to explore post grad.
Which is the conversationsof non traditional sort of
(07:54):
relationship structures.
What is referred to as ethicalor consensual non monogamy
or sometimes polyamory.
Which I'll just referto as ENM, and also
conversations of sizeismor even the impacts of it.
Stepping away from biologicalfamilies and putting a big
(08:15):
emphasis in chosen family.
These three topics have beenone of those things that as
I have been in, in a studentplacement, or as I was a student
at Dominguez Hills, I didn't seethat be talked about as much.
And it transferred overinto spaces where I was
a professional, where Iwas an intern and even
(08:39):
those conversations didn'treally get brought up.
While I was going to school,in the job settings, it was
things that I would bringto the table where we talked
about it and discussed it.
Or sometimes my turmoil ofwanting to bring it up made
me feel uncomfortable thatsometimes I sat with that
and realized, no, that wassomething that I should
have challenged a little.
(08:59):
So that has been whereit's been more prominent.
Being at The Center, I feellike that's where I felt amongst
my people where we talkedabout these things because
conversations of being anysort of queer in the spectrum,
like whether you were, whereveryour sexuality or gender
(09:20):
kind of land, it wasn't, itwas talked about, but I feel
like it gave space for us todiscuss other things like that.
And I think one of the thingsthat was really impactful was
sitting in a training wherewe talked about sizism and how
in a group of maybe 20, 30 ofus, there was only a handful
(09:42):
of us I mentioned that it isin their curriculum and even
then they only talked about itfor like a day or two at most.
seeing that I brought it tothe table, I brought it to
professors and we've discussedit and even then it was yeah,
like we know about that, butI'm like, we know is not the
same as let's talk about this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
(10:02):
Yeah, that's we knowracism is a thing.
We get it.
Thank you for bringingit up to us and then just
letting it stay there.
And not that racism is the sameas other things, but one of
the things that you and I hadtalked about was when we start
to make space for other partsof who we are, other identities.
(10:25):
It can really feel likethere's some sort of
competition between them.
Like they all don't get,if there's airtime here,
then that means that...
The other stuff isn'tas important, or why are
we talking about this?
Because this needsto be addressed.
And I think that all ofthere's room for everything.
(10:45):
I believe that's part of whyyou're probably getting the
responses that you're getting.
Where if you lift somethingup, the other parts that
we're really paying attentionto feel so significant.
It feels like, how am I goingto throw that in there too?
It feels like that.
Even as, as me, as someonewho does that, someone who is
(11:06):
constantly intaking information.
When you spoke in the classroomand brought up several things,
I then thought, How am I gonna,how am I gonna weave this in?
Like, how does, cause itcan't just live as you
shared it in the classroomand then it goes away.
What?
But it was a thought, activethought process and still
(11:26):
is translating to me havingto make changes later into
stuff, so I wanted to namethat this is a space where
just because we're talkingabout the things we are talking
about, we are not saying thatother stuff isn't important.
All other isms and all otherparts of our identities and
(11:46):
life experiences are verymuch important to who we are.
And depending on the person,depending on the context,
some may feel more importantor relevant at the time.
So today, we're really zoomingin on what you are bringing to
the table is something we justhave not been thinking about.
And it could be helpful too,because you're talking about
(12:07):
terms, again, that I believea good amount of people know,
but in terms of like workspacesor college settings, it's
not talked about enough towhere we can really understand
what we're talking about.
So I'd really like to start to,unpack what those are for a bit.
And then like, how they evenshow, like, why is it even
(12:28):
relevant to employees today?
Yeah.
And so that way we can likereally paint a good picture
of why this is relevant forpeople to even be aware of.
So when you, I thinkthe first thing you were
talking about was, let'sjust start with sizeism.
Sizeism is a thing.
We can make assumptions.
Could you justshare what that is?
(12:48):
And like, why does itmatter to people at work?
Yeah.
For sizeism, a big part ofit is just understanding that
there's a lot of systemicbarriers for folks that
are not within the means ofwhat's considered healthy.
Which in it, the word initself has changed for years.
So we think about howhealth was seen back in the
(13:11):
20th century, not the 20thcentury, but the 1920s being.
What would be considered alittle bit on like the fluffier
side where there was a littlebit more fat in someone's
body was considered healthy.
Whereas now having any sort of alarge percentage of I'm getting
(13:32):
stuck, but just even having likea bigger body was or is seen
currently as being unhealthyor having more health issues.
So when we think of sizeism,we think about it in how it
comes up in environments of, orin spaces of privilege, right?
(13:52):
So thinking about spaces whereyou go to the movie theater,
someone that is of a slimmerbody doesn't necessarily have
to think about am I going tobe able to fit in the seat?
Whereas someone that's a littlebit larger bodied would have
these thoughts of, okay, so if Ican't sit here, how can I adjust
my body to fit in this space?
That's an example ofwhere it shows up.
(14:13):
Another way can be thinkingabout having access to certain
things like life insurance.
Where someone that's in abigger body that there's a lot
of concerns of health issues.
So then that might be that thepolicy would be more expensive
for someone that is of a largerbody than a smaller body.
So then, when we think ofsizeism is really considering
(14:34):
in what spaces or in whatenvironments does someone
in a bigger body have toconsider multiple aspects that
someone that has a smallerbody doesn't really have that
mental space to really processor really even consider Oh,
am I going to be able to, goon a plane ride and consider
having to purchase two tickets?
(14:56):
So in those spaces, it'sreally considering sizeism
it's just the overarchingism of not taking all
people's bodies into account.
So really unpacking that,addressing that, and
really just focusing onhaving those conversations
of why is that an issue?
Why is that a concern?
(15:17):
Yes...
Yeah as you were talking,I'm just, I'm thinking about
so many different situationsthat I've seen in various
professional settings where,comments are made, It's,
they're not part of theinclusive umbrella oftentimes.
So when I say that, itcan mean a lot of things.
It can mean something assimple as when we're doing
trainings, there's notlike a real diversity of
(15:38):
different body types in theimages that we're using.
That's just one very, verysmall, tangible thing.
But I think what I hear,it's more what I hear
Yeah.
probably than anything else,how the words that we use
to refer to people, jokeswe make, compliments that we
give people that reinforcethe preference for smaller
(16:03):
body sizes, and these types ofcomments exist all the time.
And just to give like supertangible example for people.
I know that...
if there are comments aboutpraising people for losing
weight, saying that theylook good, saying that they
look healthier, tellingthem to keep doing what
(16:23):
they're, whatever it is, andthat's just to one person.
We don't know what that person'sjourney is or what that means.
We don't know what it meansto other people around.
But in that moment, we reallyare sending the message
to people that if you aregetting smaller, that means
a lot of great things.
And therefore that alsomeans some other stuff for
people that might not be inthat particular category.
(16:48):
That's just one example.
There are so many things thatare said and done, and I'm
thinking about the impactof people in these settings.
The impact of the messageis that there's something
wrong with your body, youdon't look good, you're
not a healthy person,you're not whatever it is.
There are messages thatwe are sending to people
(17:09):
without really realizing it.
So the language that we use torefer to people, our frame of
reference, the jokes we makehave an impact that we're not
really paying attention to.
So I wanted to lift that upand I imagine that you've
seen, experienced, whatever,like some versions of this.
So anything youwant to add to that?
(17:31):
Yeah, for, and I also want totake into account that it's
not just about like folks thatare in larger body, but also
taking into account folks thathave much, much smaller bodies
that folks don't necessarilyeven consider as healthy.
So, um, a lot of times, evenpraising folks that are of much
(17:52):
slimmer bodies and not takinginto account that maybe the
person struggling with tryingto gain weight and being of what
would be more of a healthierappearance or healthier
physiological where their bodywould need to be at because
there's biological factors.
There's sometimes traumathat comes into effect so
I do also want to take intoaccount that the opposite
(18:15):
spectrum is also there.
And there's issues wheresometimes we praise folks that
are much smaller bodies andletting them know, hey, what
are you doing to, continuebeing so small and not taking
into account that just evenasking a simple question like
that can be very impactful.
(18:36):
And there's, it's notjust necessarily in just
being in a bigger body.
It's, it comes in spaces thatis pretty much overarching
that you are not in the, Idon't want to call it in the
middle because there is nonecessarily middle, but it's
just what we see as healthierbodies continues to shift.
(18:58):
So in those places, I wantto also take into account
that it's not just aboutthe bigger bodies, it's
also the other end of it.
And I'm, I feel like a lot of itis through that training that I
learned a lot of that language,a lot of that understanding
that, being very mindfulof the words that we use.
(19:18):
And sometimes understandingthat certain words
don't work for everyone.
There's going to be folks thatif you say heavy, you might
just bring up things for them.
Whereas for other people,even just saying the word
bigger body or larger body.
It's just that language, itcontinues to shift because
(19:38):
it's trying to find that goodmedium always becomes an issue.
So in those ways, I see myselfreally trying to learn a lot
of like, okay, this works forfolks, this doesn't work for
folks, and how can I continueto like, be very intentional
about the words that I use.
Whether that means thatI have to take a moment
(19:59):
to like really process.
Okay.
What am I trying to bring?
What am I trying to say?
Without just going straight toand when with something that
you mentioned going straightinto complementing their
struggles of losing weight oreven understanding that it's not
always about weight and steppingaway from that and really
(20:21):
taking into account that becausethere's such a large issue with,
or there's such a large topicon really focusing on people's
weights and people bodies thatthis is why it's odd where
there's a lot of normalizingtalking about losing weight.
(20:42):
But there's not a lot ofnormalizing about how do we
step away from that and reallyfocus on why is that an issue?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for widening ourview on even this topic.
This is a really good example,I think, of being inclusive
about the things we're beinginclusive about the things
(21:03):
we are being inclusive about.
And, yea, I'm alsojust thinking...
when these conversations comeup often makes me think, like,
why are we talking about?
Sometimes it might matter if wehave personal relationships and
we know what it is that we'retalking about or checking out.
(21:25):
Sometimes it makes sense.
But I'm not talkingabout like those types
of situations, you know.
It could be like an allstaff meeting or in a, an
individual, whatever it is.
They just come up in theselike really interesting ways
that don't always make senseto even say, like, why do
we have to say something?
What's up with the commentabout, it's not a necessary
(21:48):
addition to the conversation.
Sometimes it's not even anaddition to the conversation.
It's just a personal thought wewant to say out loud to people.
So it does make me thinkabout being aware of too.
Why are we even, doesn't makesense for this context at all.
Am I just adding it inand why am I doing that?
And where is it coming from?
(22:08):
And what is the impactfeels incredibly important.
And you're right.
There's enough information andpeople telling their stories out
there now to know that a bodytype does not indicate health or
wellness in any shape or form.
Like the most, there areso many of the most fit,
(22:30):
healthy people in the worldwho are sharing that at their
fittest there, they weretheir most unhealthiest.
So there's, it's a supercomplex part of people.
And our comments aboutit are often unwarranted,
unnecessary, not helpful,not context appropriate.
(22:52):
So if there's any like tangiblething to, to, I think there's
a lot of tangible things.
One of the things isif you're in like these
professional settings, Ithink it's helpful to think
about why is this happening?
Does it belong here?
What's the impact?
And the other thing I'm justreally honing in on from
what you were saying is itis super individualized,
as many other things.
(23:13):
We're going to keep learninglanguages as it evolves,
and people are going tohave their preferences for
how to refer to things.
As you're talking, I'm pickingup on the language that you
prefer, but I also acknowledgethat when people listen
to this, the words aren'tgoing to work for everybody.
That's okay.
We're normalizing talkingabout it, and I would hope
that people continue to sharethe things that work for them.
(23:34):
Because it's not a competIt's not a competition of
which one is more important,it's what, this is why
relationships are important.
This is why we really lean inwith relational DEI because we
need to know the people and whothey are to interact with them
in a way that's responsive towho we are as unique people.
(23:57):
So I thank you for taking that.
I don't know if it was,I don't even know if
we planned to do that.
I just, thank you.
It comes up so much.
The other thing you mentionedwas the, non traditional
relationships, not nontraditional families.
(24:17):
And if we could talk aboutthat too and why that's
relevant to the workplace, Iimagine we'll touch on some
similar things in terms ofeverybody's individualized.
But can we just expand alittle bit, like when we say
non traditional families,what is this entailing?
So in terms of, you weretalking about in workspaces and
(24:41):
nontraditional families, I guessthe way that I was initially
thinking about that- I wasthinking about it more in the
spaces of educational purposes,and I think when I really
started thinking about how itshows up in workspaces, I'm
still working on that myself.
Like how do we haveconversations of not wanting
to be close to relativesthat traditionally are seen
(25:06):
as, this is your parent.
You need to be closeto them or you need to
take them into account.
And a lot of it is having tounderstand and really sit with
folks on letting them just telltheir stories and not pushing
these ideas of, that's your mom.
Why do you not, likeinviting these conversations
that people might notnecessarily be comfortable
(25:27):
talking about, becausethere's a lot of it there.
There can be just disconnectswith family members based on
conflicts, based on traumas,based on experiences, based on
just really understanding thatas we start getting more in
tune on where we are, developingour interests, developing
(25:48):
ourselves as individuals.
We, to some degree, startlearning that it is okay
to choose having these verystrict boundaries around
who and what you're willingto invite into your life.
And in workspaces, sometimesit can be very difficult
talking about not reallyengaging in family events.
(26:11):
And what comes to mindsometimes it's holidays and
just talking about oh, whatare you going to do with?
You know, are you goingto go visit your families
during the winter?
Are you going to go visit yourfamily during Thanksgiving?
And in itself, when inworkspaces, taking these
things into account on how dowe invite conversations and
(26:32):
normalizing that sometimesfolks don't necessarily need
to go out and spend achinghours with, biological families
or blood family, that reallyjust feels like it's over
at overly taxing for them.
So that's in how I see havingthese type of conversations
(26:54):
come up in workspaces, whereasin more on the higher ed, I
think that there isn't muchfocus on teaching folks the
importance of chosen family.
For myself, I see it more inspaces or with people that
identify in any sort of likeLGBTQIA+ community where a
(27:15):
lot of it is finding yourpeople, finding the people
that really feel like familyand really using them as a
representation of you feelingcomfortable, of finding a safe
space for you to be able togrow and develop where you're
stepping away from rejection.
You're stepping awayfrom having to feel like
you're not good enough.
(27:37):
So in higher education,I feel like there isn't
a curriculum on that.
There isn't talks aboutthe importance on that.
And if there is, it'sjust always very limited.
In the sense of oh yeah,sometimes chosen family
can be very important forfolks and then we move on.
and there needs to be more.
There needs to be moretalks and more discussions
on why is that a thing?
Why is that important?
(27:58):
Why can't we normalize nothaving to feel like folks need
to just stick to their familystructures that have to do with
the folks that birthed them?
Or the familiesare based on blood.
So in those settings, that'swhere I feel like it's really
important to really havethese types of discussions.
And even understanding thatthe chosen family can sometimes
(28:20):
have people that are relativesthat they themselves can
choose to just say, Hey,these are my top five folks.
And maybe only two of themare really my blood folks.
And the rest of them are peoplethat I've met that have really
helped develop me as who I am.
Yeah, like, all your, really,if I just took everything
that you said and just,conceptualized it for myself,
(28:43):
it's a great example of howthis is another complex part.
When we talk aboutintersectional identities,
every part of who we arehas its own complexities.
And if I were to zoom outand think, okay, I'm someone,
I'm a professional, or I'mtrying to do differently.
(29:04):
What does thisreally mean for me?
What I was hearing in thereis something I see a lot,
and that's people ask alot of leading questions.
And we could be better aboutasking more open questions.
So we're going to talk Sowhen I say leading question,
we ask, are you going togo do this with family?
Are you going to, we askquestions with our lens.
(29:26):
And we we already put likea category on it because
we associate holiday, I'mjust going to use yours,
holidays with families.
Which could be the casefor a lot of people.
It could be the casefor you, but isn't the
case for everybody.
When we ask leading questions,we could unintentionally be
bringing some stuff up forpeople that we don't know.
(29:49):
Developing our ability to askmore open questions, curious
questions that gives peoplespace to answer, outside
of the box that we set forthem can be very helpful
if there's time coming up.
I know I've still been workingon it when time's coming up.
I don't even know peoplecelebrate the things
that I'd be celebrating.
(30:09):
I'll be like, Hey, wehave some time coming up.
And in my mind is coming thequestion is coming out to just
ask exactly what you're saying.
It's literally processing.
And I'm like, don't ask.
So then I say stuff thatsounds like, Hey, we
have some time coming up.
Do you got any plans going on?
It's just, do you gotany plans going on?
(30:30):
You can say whatever you want.
Whatever.
But if I ask, Hey,Thanksgiving is coming up.
Are you spending it?
It's not only is it thefamily, it's the Thanksgiving.
There's other partsgoing on here.
Something that people couldreally do is learn to ask
open questions that donot put people in a box.
(30:51):
And then you don't have to worryso much about saying the wrong
thing, doing the wrong thing.
You get to hear how people areexplaining their lives to you.
And then you can usethe words that they're
using to engage back.
Because if I asked you thesimilar question and said, Hey,
there's some time coming up.
Do you have any plans?
(31:12):
Anything you're excited about?
Maybe not excited about, you'regoing to say whatever you say.
I'm going to gohere with, my wife.
I'm going to go here with.
Blah, blah, blah.
Or no, I'm not goingto do anything.
It's going to bea terrible time.
Whatever you decideto say, you can say.
So I know, let mejust stop there.
I think I can go in alot of different places.
(31:33):
I tend to do that in my mind.
But that was just like, we don'thave to put people in boxes
when we're talking to them.
We can use way more openlanguage and just be fine.
Be just fine.
Last little piece is the, yousaid ENM, ethical non monogamy.
Yes.
So same thing, Whatare we talking about?
(31:53):
And then we'll draw theconnection to why does
this even matter at work?
Yeah, so for ENM there'sso much, and I'm also still
learning a lot from it.
And a lot of it comes frompersonal experiences of leading
groups, leading conversations,and leading in the most minimal
way, because it's really mesitting and listening to these
(32:16):
folks that are experiencing itevery single day of their lives,
and me understanding that.
A lot of it, I've started tounderstand myself on where I
fit in that and how it's comeup or has not come up in a lot
of spaces where I feel like it'sreally important to talk about.
When I think about it inworkspaces, a lot of it has
(32:37):
to do with simple thingslike, for example, who are you
bringing to the company picnic?
Who are you bringing to talkabout going on holidays with?
It just, there's so manynuances and a lot of
it stems from biases.
A lot of it stems from,these stereotypes of what
(32:59):
ENM relationship styles looklike or what are their quote
unquote underlining reasons forwanting to engage in these sort
of relationship structures.
And a lot of it is justreally based around biases of
sexuality and wanting to bemore explorative in terms of
who they want to engage in thoseacts with, or these ideas of
(33:21):
wanting to be just unfaithful.
And it doesn't reallystem from that.
It stems a lot from having theseconnected relationships with
folks that traditionally mightbe frowned upon because we think
about relationship privilege.
We think about how, wethink of relationships being
just two individuals beingromantically together, and
(33:45):
it's not always like that.
So in professional space, inprofessional spaces, it really
comes up in like discussingwhat it looks like to have
a coworker that might havemultiple partners and stepping
away from- and this goes beyondjust like ENM also considering
(34:05):
just sexuality as a factor,like stepping away from using
terms like wife and husbandto going with spouses or
significant others or whatever
that might feel morecomfortable to say.
Because stepping away from that,you're allowing folks to explore
where they might be comfortabledisclosing their relationship
(34:28):
structures with you.
And in professional settingsor in workspaces, it comes up
not only in the conversationsthat we have, but also comes
up in where we start offeringlike health insurance and
where privilege or a coupleprivilege comes in that.
Where a lot of times it'snot giving an option of
(34:49):
okay, when you start signingup for health insurance,
it has to be a significantother or your dependents.
So it doesn't give a lot ofleeway to think about I'm
having these other folks thatI want to put into my life
that I want to allow them tohave coverage and you can't
because it just isn't offered.
Or sometimes it's not wantingto engage in these conversations
(35:12):
because of a lot of thatthe comments that are made.
A lot of the not wanting tocome up in these spaces or come
out in these spaces that it'snot traditionally talked about.
So when I think about what orhow to engage those type of
conversations in workspacesis being open and intentional
(35:34):
about not only the languagethat we use, but also
intentional in havinga very open mind.
Without having to have tosay these additional comments
of, oh, but isn't your, yoursignificant other going to
get upset because you'reseeing someone else more.
A lot of it has to do withunderstanding that even in
(35:55):
folks in non traditionalsort of relationships or ENM
relationships, It's different,it looks different for everyone.
Being curious isreally important.
Being mindful of sittingand taking that in, again
going, stepping away fromreally wanting to say
something or throwing yourideas of what it looks like.
(36:16):
Allowing them to guide youin what they're willing to,
one, share with you, and two,sitting with that, sitting
with it is really hardsometimes for individuals
and acknowledging that.
But also understandingthat folks might not
want to be your teachers.
They might not want to teachyou what this looks like and
really being okay with that.
(36:37):
Which means not askingextra questions about
what it is that they dowith certain folks or not.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you.
I, yeah.
I, sorry, I have abunch of thoughts.
I'm thinking about things thatI've seen and heard myself.
(36:58):
And in some way, like the othertopics we're talking about,
not having to ask these likeleading questions or does it
even make sense to even ask someof the things that we're asking?
We ask people in, we ask peoplein non monogamous relationships
things and questions wewouldn't ask other people.
Sometimes it can make senseif you're in a conversation
(37:19):
and it makes sense.
But we just got a lot oflike wonderings and questions
that we've just asked becauseof the things we think.
And then what I've seen alot though is because of
the bias, because the thingsthat we associate with
non monogamy comes so muchjudgment and it comes out.
I've seen it come out, whetherpeople want it to or not.
(37:42):
There are beliefs thatpeople have and it's
cool if people have theirbeliefs, there's no problem.
I have mine too.
It doesn't mean thatmy belief somehow means
that theirs is wrong.
Mine is right for me,theirs is right for them.
And there's so much aboutethical non monogamy that
people don't understand.
(38:04):
Like how people even arrive tothese different relationships.
What goes into creating them andmaintaining them, and how other
people know what's going on.
There's just so many thingsthat people don't know.
I think a really goodstarting point for people
is to learn about it.
It's not something that people,I think people associate, I'm
going to learn about ethicalnon monogamy if I'm interested
(38:24):
in to me people associate itwith sex therapy or something,
or kink, it's like over here.
It's in this bucket, it'sfine, it can be in the
bucket I guess, otherthings can be in the bucket.
But it's not a thing tohave over in a bucket with
some other stuff off to theside, like all of those are
(38:45):
parts of people that peopledo very intentionally,
safely, ethically.
It's not what peopleare thinking it is.
And so at work, if you are aprofessional, I think a great
starting point, if you don'teven know what this stuff is,
I really think you should learnit because you said bias, like
(39:07):
the bias that we associate
particularly with this, just,it's just so not what it is.
Step one, pleaselearn what that means.
And then two, like the otherstuff that we're talking
about, be aware of thelanguage that we're using.
Are we putting people intoboxes with the language?
(39:29):
Spouse is a great change.
And sometimes people don'teven want to get married.
And that's fine too.
It's fine.
Just being really awareof what we're using.
So if we say, are there anyimportant people in your life?
People can answer thathowever they choose to.
I could be like,yeah, I have my cat.
(39:50):
That's what I'm tryingto tell you today.
I have a cat that's in my life.
I know it's a person, butnot a person, but that's
the answer to the question.
It's just, get good atasking open questions
and let people answer it.
And then, you know, wherethey're comfortable going
and not, we don't haveto put people into boxes.
When we ask open questions,we help model what it looks
(40:14):
like to be curious andnot put people in boxes.
And then for other peoplearound, because we could
be having individualconversations in a group space.
We could be facilitating anexperience with multiple people.
And when we come in withthese boxes, we could be
doing so much unintentionalstuff to people around.
So much because we don'tknow what people's stories
(40:36):
are or struggles orwhatever it was that got
them to where they're at.
Get really good atasking open questions.
Let's just, I just learnedhow to do that in practice.
Yeah, also being veryintentional about the
things that we use in thelanguage that's being used.
Being very mindful ofquestions that generate
conversations of oh, let's,let's do icebreakers, right?
(40:59):
being very intentional inthat and reassessing, in what
ways are any of the thingsthat we do, any of the tools
that we use, being inclusiveto folks that might not be
in traditional or in nonmonogamous relationships.
The same thing that comes intomind is even being mindful
of the tools that we use infamilies and thinking about,
(41:21):
who they would identifyas part of their families.
So really being more intentionalof taking a step back and really
exploring where are the gapsand why are the gaps there and
how can we make sure that thelanguage that we're using is
leaving it, as you mentioned,these very open questions.
don't start withwhat is your gender?
(41:42):
Leaving a space that'sopen if possible for folks
to be able to write whatthat looks like for them.
What is your relationship orwhat is your status, right?
Being very intentional abouthaving these spaces where if it
feels like it's warranted to putlike single, married, et cetera,
having a space where folkscan type in what feels
comfortable for them toidentify themselves as.
(42:04):
Hmm.
I'm thinking about like socialservice organizations and,
there are going to be somechanges that agencies can make.
And if you can do it.
Then there's some where I'mthinking, I'm just thinking
about a response, right?
Like social service agencies,there's forms they have to use.
And like, we can'tchange, I get that.
And there's also nothingwrong before giving
(42:26):
somebody something to say.
There's terminology onhere that's it's not
terribly inclusive.
And I'm sorry I'm having touse this, but please know
that this paper is here toserve like this particular
purpose, but that doesn't meanif you don't fit into these,
that there isn't space foryou to be able to share like
(42:49):
what, who you like, not whatyou are, but who you are.
So use it in the waythat you need to as well.
And I'm happy to talk withyou about any of the stuff
that isn't quite making sense.
Cause I want tolearn more about you.
We can say those things.
So if we have to use toolsthat aren't necessarily with
the times, that doesn't meanthat we just have to keep doing
(43:10):
things the way that we do it.
It's okay to use oldtools till they're updated
and frame it right.
And sometimes the toolsaren't relevant anymore.
So I'm not talking aboutthose unrelevant tools.
There's I don't even know ifthat's a word, but tools that
are old that shouldn't beused, please don't use them.
But if we have to, forsome reason, we can
still talk about it.
(43:30):
Yeah.
Jessie, you obviously have alot of knowledge in these areas.
I'm really curious, likehow did you arrive to
this place of knowingthe things that you know?
And what was your own processof learning or unlearning
things, whatever that was?
So how did I come to unlearn?
I feel like I'm stillunlearning a lot of it and.
(43:53):
I honor and I reallyfeel privileged to be in
a space where I'm stilllike a baby social worker.
And I continue to stay reallycurious about what, not only
what conversations aroundsize or conversations around
relationship structures oreven family, just really being
(44:14):
curious about what I know andchallenging what I know because
that is what my process isto unlearning a lot of this.
And being very fortunate ofbeing able to be in spaces
where I can explore whatthat impact looks like.
Which I feel like a lot of it,I have to thank my opportunity
(44:36):
to intern at the LA LGBTCenter because that's where
the spaces were provided forme to explore these topics that
have always been an interestof mine, but either didn't
have the mental space to reallyexplore it or just didn't feel
like it was something that Ineeded to do at that moment.
So being in that space, Iwas able to get a lot of
(44:59):
knowledge that my peers didn't.
And so that, that kind offelt like I can be that
person to generate theseconversations, to guide these
conversations, to bring it atthe table and just be like,
do what you can with that.
I'm really grateful for thepeople in my life that have
allowed me to be myself andexplore what that looks like.
(45:21):
which, even though it wasn'tnecessarily in the curriculum,
I feel like a lot of the timesmy professors were really
good about like, all right,Jessie, let's talk about this.
You brought it to the table.
So it has generated thiscommunity learning for
myself and my peers in thespaces that I have been in.
I don't know what it looks likeoutside of that, but I know that
(45:42):
is where I've made sense of it.
Where I realized, yeah,this is a topic that
needs to be talked about.
This is a topic that whyaren't we talking about
it in our curriculum?
Why aren't we talking aboutit in professional settings
that we, especially incommunity settings where
we're serving people.
we're trying to be thesemodels of what inclusivity
(46:07):
looks like, right?
These models of having thesevery tough conversations that
is inclusive to all, but thenunderstanding that, are we?
And asking myself thatquestion is really what
my process has been like.
It's been asking those questionsof, what am I learning?
Who am, who is teaching me this?
(46:27):
Where is this stemming from?
And that has really becomethat foundation for me to keep
exploring and honing down onwhat I want to bring to not
only the profession as a socialworker, but the profession
as someone that I ultimatelywant to go and be like,
Hey, let's have these talksbecause no one else is really
(46:48):
comfortable in bringing them up.
And I want to be okaywith being uncomfortable.
It's that shared knowledge.
It's knowing that some folksmight not be comfortable
with it and that's okay.
You, there are some peoplein the world who are like,
(47:10):
totally fine with thatspace of whatever, I'm
going to learn stuff andI might not know it all.
And when I hear it,I'm going to, shift.
And I believe I'mone of those people.
But the reason I'm reallybringing this up is because
I believe that people, seepeople like us and think that
(47:31):
it's easy or without struggle.
I don't know about you.
I'm about to ask you about you,but for me, while I'm fine with
having this stance, it's notalways, it's not always easy.
It like really requires meto be, what am I going to
do with this information?
That's some, Ihave my own thing.
(47:52):
I'm wondering, could you,if you, first, if, is this
a thing that you experience?
And if you could share thestruggle too, I think it,
not that we're not human, butI really think that people
need to understand we're,we understand it's hard too.
Have you had any strugglemoments with your learning
process, even thoughyou are okay with it?
(48:14):
Yes.
I, yes.
A short answer.
Yes.
Um, And\ I think a big partof it does come with, being
a person of color, beingqueer, being all of these
intersectional identities thatbrings a lot of isms in my life.
That sometimes I've really madeit difficult for me to want to
(48:35):
bring up these conversations.
And continue to learn frommyself that, I'm, my expertise
really lie in a lot of mylived experiences and in my
willingness to want to bringin these conversations or
bringing it to the table aswhatever might come out of.
(48:56):
And it's hard, it's still hardwhen I think of spaces where
I'm someone that's new and howmuch of rocking the boat can I
really do, without necessarilyhaving to feel like here, I've
only been here for a week.
This is what I think needsto get changed, right?
And in those ways, it stillfeels like I'm still having to
(49:18):
sit with being uncomfortable,or even bringing up, being
my own little cheerleaderwhen someone has to do it,
and if it's not you, no oneelse is going to do that.
And I don't necessarily saythat in the sense where I have
to be the only one that hasto bring those conversations
into the table and spacesthat I'm in and recognizing
that sometimes that does comewith my own sets of privileges
(49:40):
because of not only my livedexperience, but also going to
a graduate program, having apopulation in my school that
is primarily folks of color andus all talking and discussing
what our lived experiencehas been in this field.
I'm more comfortable in bringingthem up versus in other spaces
(50:02):
where I'm the new personthere and how can I bring that
without feeling like it ismy quote unquote duty to do?
Yes, I can, I get that a lot.
I want to add just one morelayer to that question and
do, and ask it to model whatit looks like for the true,
like inward reflection.
(50:23):
Have there been anystruggles with, like you as
a learner, like you learningthese different things?
Yes.
Anything there to helpnormalize that process too.
Yeah, my, a lot of, thebiases that come with
any of this, right?
Or the, that uncomfortablefeeling of Who am I versus a
(50:49):
sea of everyone else, right?
Who am I who hasn't reallypublished someone who's new
to this field, who's reallystill finding that power in
what I'm, what I know, andwhat I know is still something
that's important to be said.
A lot of the struggles comefrom knowing that there's
a limited background in thesense of what I know, right?
(51:13):
I am still trying to findmore in terms of who I am as
someone that wants to continuethe conversations of size.
Or even just having a bad daywhere I feel like, how do I
come out of that funk to wantto have, these discussions?
Or not even having thatmental capacity and having
to understand that itdoesn't have to fall on me.
(51:34):
There are good daysand there are bad days.
There are good days where I'mlike, okay with knowing that.
It's engaging in, inconversations with others.
And normalizing that for myselfis really a big part of it.
Yes.
Thank you.
Yeah, that was like really coolto hear and I appreciate you
going there because I think it'shelpful for people to see like
(51:56):
what the self reflection lookslike and just have a peek inside
of someone's learning process.
I think that before we wrap up,is there anything else that we
will want to share with people?
Tools to add to their toolbox?
Sitting with beinguncomfortable.
That's a big one for me.
(52:17):
because I'm still processingwhat that looks like
and how I model that.
Also being very intentionabout having these
conversations with individuals.
I think sometimes there'sa lot of what feels like
talking to people, right?
Here's what I've learned.
This is what I, this iswhat you need to do, right?
(52:37):
Whereas now it feelslike let's collaborate.
Having that open mind,understanding that because
you're sitting with thatand you're having these open
discussions with individuals,you're collaborating, you're
finding ways to challenge thesebeliefs that we might have about
what size looks like, what nonmonogamous looks like, what
(53:01):
family structures look like.
Yeah.
Yes.
I completely agree.
Building people's capacityto be in discomfort is.
Oh my goodness.
Required.
I think is the bestway I could say that.
It's required.
None of this stuff is goingto always feel good and we are
(53:24):
going to always be learning.
We are.
I learned some things today too.
To me, I've already saidit a couple times in our
convo, the biggest thingto me that people...
If you learn to phrase yourquestions much more openly,
that means you would haveto think about how your
(53:47):
questions are framed andwhy they're framed that way.
But if you really learnto practice that, like I
said, like it, the things gothrough my mind with my lens.
And then I have to realize,okay, that's what I think.
How can I ask an open question?
So I'm not saying, don'tengage with people if
you don't understand it.
It's not that when you canask open questions, you're
(54:08):
going to release yourselfof a lot of like the boxes
that we put people in.
Definitely.
And if the goal is you'rewanting to connect with people,
learn who they are, have betterworking relationships, whatever
it is, and you open a much widerspace for them to fill it, you
(54:32):
can understand the uniquenessof people in a much different
way, a much different way.
Like I, to me, that'slike the top of the list.
And I hadn't necessarilythought about teaching that as
a tool, but that's a tool thatI believe I will be teaching.
I honestly, I appreciatethis conversation.
(54:54):
It really it reallylifted it up for me.
It's just a thing thatpeople could really learn.
Imagine, just imagine ifpeople learned how to ask
way open, way more openquestions, what would happen?
Even in the areas we're talkingabout, the areas we're not
talking about, and people got tofill in the space on their own.
Game changer.
(55:16):
Thank you so much for beinghere with me and, get me to
really think you always do that.
You always get me thinking.
I am certain that people willbenefit from this conversation.
So if people want to get intouch with you, what is the
best way they can do that?
Alrighty.
They can check meout on LinkedIn.
(55:38):
I will link your LinkedInin the description.
All right.
if you are listening tothis and found it valuable,
please share this episodewith people in your network.
share, subscribe on whateverplatform is good with you.
We're really encouraging,engaging in dialogue around the
(55:58):
discussions that we're having.
So take this and engagein discussions with the
people in your network.
That could be a supervisor,your teams, anybody.
But just talk about what we'retalking about and figure out
like what that means for you.
If you want to get in touch withme, you can go to my website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, there's...
(56:18):
all kinds of freebies.
You can have access to my book,Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
You got links to all my socialsand wherever you are, I can be.
Let's be connected.
Thank you so much forlistening or watching and
I hope to connect soon.
Until then, bye!
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