A thoughtful leader confronts the bittersweet journey of leaving her long-time position, grappling with internalized oppression and the pursuit of aligning personal values, while navigating the challenging conflict between privilege and identity. The conversation went in an unexpected direction which illustrated the nuanced nature of reflective process.
In this episode, you will be able to:
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Discover the transformational power of self-reflection following a transition from leadership.
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Absorb profound life lessons influenced by personal principles.
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Understand the trap of societal pressure to chase position and wealth over personal fulfillment.
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Uncover the crucial role of courageous communication in cultivating inclusive environments.
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Get into the complex intersection of identity, privilege, and oppression in leaders.
Meet Sharon Chun Wetterau
Sharon is a luminary in the field of social work and higher education with a 30-year career in direct practice and leadership. Sharon's journey shines a light on the value of every professional development stage, from frontline practitioner to program coordinator and leadership roles in notable educational institutions. Facing the challenges and rewards of each phase has only refined her insight and fueled her dedication to her craft. Sharon's reflective approach following her departure from a decade-long role at Dominguez offers an invaluable example to leaders transitioning from their familiar spaces. As a testament to her commitment to self, Sharon now serves in a direct practice role, underlining her belief in treasuring each career stage and aligning professional decisions with personal values.
One of My Fav Moments: The Transformational Power of Self-Reflection: Self-reflection is a crucial tool for personal growth and is especially powerful during career transitions. It enables leaders to reassess their actions, decisions, and leadership style, providing valuable insights for future work engagements. This self-reflective process can also help individuals realign their career goals with their personal values, leading to heightened feelings of fulfillment and job satisfaction.
In this episode, Sharon gave herself to the moment which allowed for a real life moment to unpack in real time. It was an example of the learning process leaders avoid when behavior change is what they want... This is a must see!
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
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https://www.livingunapologetically.com
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/charmaine-utz-lcsw/
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https://www.instagram.com/theunapologetictherapist/
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https://www.facebook.com/livingunapologeticallyservices/
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https://twitter.com/LivingDEI
To get in touch with Sharon Chun Wetterau, you can contact her here:
The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:00 - Setting the Stage 00:02:41 - The Impact of Sharon's Leadership, 00:06:05 - Reflecting on Change, 00:09:11 - "Aha" Moments in Reflection, 00:12:37 - Societal Pressure and Reflection, 00:17:16 - Unexpected Changes and Personal Growth, 00:18:30 - The Impact of Being the First, 00:18:59 - Developing a Critical Race Theory Lens, 00:20:35 - Not Honoring Values in the Workplace, 00:24:54 - Lessons from Past Mistakes, 00:33:14 - Communication and Its Impact, 00:34:45 - Reflection and Learning, 00:35:53 - Similarities in Higher Ed and Or
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I wasn't anticipatingany of this to occur.
(00:03):
I want to thank you forbeing this vulnerable
and being this honest.
People do not haveto be this honest.
They don't.
I don't know anything elseto say to offer you in
this moment because it'sjust a real life moment.
What are you thinking?
What are you feeling right now?
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out
(00:23):
Loud Discussion Seriesand today we were talking
about necessary reflectionsafter stepping down from a
long time leadership role.
I am Charmaine Utz, aRelational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up inour interactions with each
other in professional settings
or in the places where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
(00:46):
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our everydayinteractions so that we can
learn from them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the views,opinions, the things that I
share in this series, theyare opinions of my own.
They are not representativeof agencies by which I am
(01:08):
employed or contracted by.
With me I haveSharon Chun Wetterau.
(01:28):
Thank you for joining today.
Thank you, Charmaine.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Yes.
So Sharon and I were talkingand I was just reflecting on
how I came to know her andthe capacities that we've been
able to work together and apart of me feels very connected
to you like I've known youfor a long time and then when
(01:51):
I reflect back I realize ithasn't been that long and
I think it's because of you
how you show up in spacesand the impact that I've seen
you have on so many people.
So we worked together at CalState Dominguez Hills, and
I was adjunct faculty there.
(02:11):
And because of you, I wasactually brought on board.
We have a mutual colleaguethat put us in touch and it
just moves so fast and I don'teven know if, you know, this,
but that was one of my goals-
to be able to teach.
And I really wanted tocome back to Dominguez.
You were instrumentalin doing that.
(02:32):
I never even told you that.
Thank you.
Oh, you're welcome, Charmaine.
We are so fortunateto have had you.
Thank you.
You've had decades of experiencein various capacities.
Your impact is here inCalifornia and over in Ohio,
and you also shared yourstory and people that were
(02:53):
important to you and howyou grew as a professional
and like a spiritual piece.
Would you mind justsharing any part of who
you are in your journey?
Thanks, Charmaine.
I know there's a lot tosay because I've been in
the social work field nowfor 30 years, post MSW.
(03:13):
And so there's been a lot ofdifferent journeys I've been
on as a direct practitioner.
I am licensed clinicalsocial worker in California.
I'm also a licensed independentsocial worker in Ohio.
I've just been so lucky inmy life to have been working
direct practice, working, reallystarted in residential treatment
in Hollywood with kids, inLA County's DCFS, Department
(03:38):
of Children and FamilyServices, Child Welfare System.
And then later, inone of my many jobs,
I've had well over 10.
Coming back as a trainerand a consultant through
UCLA to work with newhires for LA County DCFS.
And I've had an opportunityto coordinate programs and be
over budgets to help empowerupcoming BSW and MSW students
(04:05):
to work in child welfare.
So I've been in highereducation for over 24 years
and between UCLA, Fresno State,Ohio State College of Social
Work, and also at Dominguezwhere I closed my time with
higher ed for 10 years there.
And, did a lot of trainingall over the place, to,
(04:25):
um, help line staff,supervisors, administrators,
look at different aspectsrelated to, in the old
days we called it culturalcompetence, and oppression.
And I've had opportunitiesto also even develop,
like in Ohio, some modulesrelated to the Asian Pacific
(04:46):
Islander communities.
And also the Latinx communities.
I'm currently working forhealthcare plan looking at
navigation of systems andhelping to connect people to
resources or to something thatwould help them get to the
next place they want to be.
I am just really blessed tohave had these opportunities.
(05:09):
I am a mother.
I have two kids andone's in college and
one's in high school.
I'm married.
I also, I think my values and mybelief system, which is rooted
in Christianity, which I wasn'traised in, but, I, became a
Christian when I was a teenager.
And so that has also impactedsome of the opportunities
that came my way, as well asimpacted how I want to look
(05:33):
at students and view students,or how I want to treat people.
Yeah, you have a ton ofexperience and I thank you
for sharing the things thatfill you and your values.
I absolutely love that.
I'd like to ask for a moment,talk about what I don't think
we talk about enough in thefield is there are a lot
(05:54):
of experiences that existin organizations that also
exist in higher education.
Very, very similar dynamicswhile different industries,
and I think they havetheir own problems and
greatness about them.
There's a lot ofsimilar dynamics.
And as you were sharing yourjourney privately with me, I
(06:16):
was really hearing how yourjourney can apply to not
just people who are familiarwith higher ed, also in
spaces outside of, I'mreally looking forward to
hearing your perspective.
That said, you've had a lotof leadership roles and you've
stepped down since then, andyou were telling me about these
(06:39):
things that you were reflectingon and these aha moments.
I felt like thisneeded to be captured.
There's so much in yourreflection that I think
could help current leaders,leaders in any capacity.
I think it'd be reallyfascinating for staff
and even students to hearabout this reflection.
That's where we'regoing to go today.
(07:00):
Let's start with what told you-hey, I need to reflect on this.
And what has thatbeen like for you?
I think change necessitatesreflection and sometimes
not out of your own will.
And I think when moving froma position that I was very
comfortable in for, 10 years atDominguez and many years prior
(07:23):
at different places, there's acertain skill set you develop.
You're still using, youknow, as a social worker,
solid assessment skills,and that's across the board.
And so I think because thingsin my last position we're not
aligning with my values, Ifelt I needed to make a change.
(07:45):
Even though I wasn't sure whatI was quite getting myself into.
I think when you'rein higher education.
You have sort of a trajectoryin your mind that's
going to happen to you.
And I did, I had a, okay,maybe 60, that 60 seems to
be this year you sort ofretire from higher head,
but it, it depends, right?
(08:06):
How much service credityou have and all that.
But that was sort ofwhat was in my mind.
So to have to leave that earlywas not something I expected.
And so, when you're goingthrough that process of
thinking about making achange and a move, you have
to really think very deeplyabout why you're doing it.
So it does require this needfor reflection and, talking
(08:27):
with other people and reflectingon their reflections and
weighing the pros and cons.
Yes.
So you, and again, shareas you feel comfortable
and safe to share.
You just, again, privatelyhad, were telling me about
so many of your aha moments.
I'm curious to know were thereany things that surprised you as
(08:50):
you were doing this reflection?
Were there any things thatjust felt, Oh, I wish this, or,
Oh, this really got me good.
Yeah.
I think, I think when, howpeople like to think about,
like when they contemplatemaking a job change, and you
know how the grass is alwaysgreener on the other side.
(09:11):
So there's a little bit oflike excitement that happens
when you consider somethingdifferent and new possibilities.
And so I think I was definitelyexperiencing that piece of oh,
maybe some of the things thatis not working out for me here
in this position, I can nowhave that in this other place.
(09:31):
And so that was exciting to mebecause I was trying to think
about work life balance moreand it's something that it
was gnawing at me for a while.
And this is something also whenyou're an educator, you preach
a lot to the choir, or youpreach a lot to students about
how you want them to developas practitioners and do more
than survive in social work,but to thrive in social work.
(09:55):
And so you start realizing,oh, I need to take some
of this advice for myself.
And when I finally madethat, decisional balance, or
whatever we say in motivationalinterviewing to, go to the
other side and make thatchange, there's also that hope
and optimism, but then there'salso the scare, the fear that
goes with making a change.
And so I think, because
(10:16):
I was moving into a positionthat I was never really
intending to go to, it wasn'ton my radar, but again, I was
thinking about the opportunitythat was presenting to myself
that may have some value to,or may uphold one of these
other values I have, whichis the work life balance.
I had to reallyconsider that very much.
(10:38):
And so I had to walk into aposition that I really, it
was going to have a lot ofchallenges for me because
I hadn't been in directpractice for over 24 years.
And I don't know if it's justunsaid or in social work, people
tend to go direct practiceand then they just end up
getting more macro in the end.
(10:58):
You know, they move intosupervisor, administrator,
consultant positions, butthey, unless they do a
private practice, they don'tusually return to like care
management, case management.
There's thishierarchy around that.
And so I definitely had toreally think about, okay,
who am I, what do I reallylike in the work that I do?
(11:22):
And in my entire career, whenI think about the common theme
of the skill that I have,that I do well in, and that
is helping people feel seen,helping people feel heard, and
helping them have a sense oflike hope for the next step.
(11:43):
And in that coordinationof care or of placements
or whatever that is, it'sall related to each other.
And so I really was thinkingabout that a lot about
that was really what wasattractive for me for this
new position that I'm in
Yeah.
that and I, I don't see it as anegative, some people are like,
(12:03):
oh, you're doing direct practiceagain, as opposed to, living the
high life in higher education,which was a myth to that.
You're talking aboutsomething, I'm going to lift
it up a little bit more.
And it is this societalvalue placed on moving up
(12:30):
a hierarchy of positions.
You start at the bottom.
The bottom is direct serve-this is what society tells
us and the things they valueand the money and all of
that stuff reinforces you are
supposed to want to move upin position level in money, in
(12:52):
significance and all of that.
When you were talking abouthow you imagined your life and
then at 60 and what it wouldlook like, I was seeing this
envisioning of a trajectory.
I had it myself.
And this is honestly why Iwas making the connection.
As you were talking, Iremember feeling the same way.
I felt the same way.
(13:13):
I also felt like I felt I hadan awareness of it and I kept
valuing this idea of moving up.
And I also remember that Iwas so committed to that,
that it contributed to one ofthe most painful professional
experiences I ever had.
(13:33):
I was trying to move upin a place that was trying
to push me down so much.
It just, it came to a placewhere it really took me out.
It took me out physicallyand mentally, emotionally,
and spirit- it took meout in every single way.
(13:54):
And it wasn't till afterI decided I let it all go
because it was I startedimagining doing, causing
physical harm to people.
I started imaginingmyself rather just living
with my cats outside.
I just, it, I wanted anythingbut what I was doing, and
started to imagine another life.
And I had to let it go.
And I took several weeks off.
(14:15):
It just so happened, I wasblessed and fortunate enough
to leave the job withoutanything else, and my last day
I happened to get a job offer.
It just happened that way,and I took several weeks off,
and in that process of my ownreflection, I realized how
much I really wanted somethingthat was some sort of level up.
(14:37):
That you're leveling up,you're doing better in
life, you're worth more,it meant all of that.
What was interesting as I wentto a role that was seemingly,
it was less in position levelin terms of the hierarchy.
It was less in money.
It was everything.
But to your point, it was verymuch more aligned with what
I was actually wanting to do.
(14:57):
It really was.
I wanted to help develop people.
I wanted to help them grow.
I didn't care so muchabout the other things
that I was having to do.
And it comes witha lot of sacrifice.
And then there'sjust that struggle.
And I just wantedto talk about that.
It just hit mewhen you said that.
It really did.
And I just thank youfor bringing that up.
(15:18):
I do.
I just want to thank you formaking the space to have these
conversations because I do thinkpeople as they learn from others
in their profession have an ideaof where they're supposed to be.
And oftentimes life does notgive you that easy path to make
all that happen for you andyou have to pivot and you have
(15:41):
to adjust and I do think itreally does come down to values.
And, what you value and alsothe climate that you're in.
the job climate thatyou're in, which we know
can make or break it.
If the leadership is, develop,modeling a culture that is
oppressive or harassing orunsafe, it doesn't matter.
(16:05):
It doesn't matter if thatwas your dream job, if
you can't function in anenvironment that's toxic.
And then you're forced tosometimes have to lose and
meet, lose that positionand do something else.
But, I think it's importantto really honor who you
are and to know what isimportant for you at the time.
I think in life, youhave different needs
(16:27):
at different times.
It's like a developmental
model really when you thinkabout it in your life.
And sometimes you need positionsthat are don't maybe provide
the financial means that youwere hoping, but it's going
to give you peace of mind.
It's going to be somethingthat will work for you.
Maybe you have a lot ofcaregiving duties during
(16:47):
that time, and that youhave to take a second job
just to support yourself.
But it's just your mind isgoing to be in a better place.
Versus taking on a positionthat's maybe like a executive
director or assistant directorwhere you have more space
in your mind to be ableto do that, more peace in
your life, because thoseresponsibilities at home are
(17:08):
lighter or you have more help.
So there's just all theselittle nuanced kinds of things
that can happen to you inyour life or you have to move.
And that's happened tome a lot, where I didn't
anticipate leaving a position.
I had one position I loved.
And I had to leave it.
I had the best workingpartner and I was so sad to
(17:28):
leave it because I reallyenjoyed what I was doing,
but, change you know, and I
value my family.
Having to move to Ohio whenI didn't expect to do that.
Ultimately, looking back,was really helpful for me,
particularly in the area ofwhat we now call DEI work.
And because I startedto understand different
(17:50):
perspectives outsideof California.
Different politicalperspectives, different
ideas, and then I startedmeeting people that
honestly just did not know.
They really did not knowthat I was the first API
person they ever met.
And I remember when I usedto teach at Ohio State, I
taught this huge lecture hall.
(18:12):
And it was, it wasthe oppression class.
And I remember my students, acouple came up to me at the end
or during the class, and theysaid, yeah, you were the first-
like, when we saw you talk,we were thrown back because
you didn't have an accent.
And they were
my gosh.
away from that.
And this was 20 yearsago, but that could easily
(18:33):
still be the case now,in some places in the US.
And I had to startreally thinking about
those kinds of things.
That really helped me developas a person also with, a CRT,
Critical Race Theory lens.
Dominguez helped me withCRT to think of, okay, I see
these things that happen intheir family, or I see this
(18:54):
happen from their community,but connected to systems,
connected and even now, I'malways challenged by that when
I'm thinking about a client orI'm thinking about a coworker.
Or maybe something that someonesays that didn't, land on me.
I think about, oh, but thinkabout in a larger framework
systemically, how it isthat they, that might lead
(19:16):
them to behave that way.
And that helps, helps me to openup my mind a little bit more.
Yeah, yes.
So while I, while you'retalking, I'm like, I am so
curious about zooming into youand your internal experience.
I'm really curious aboutdoing that and I'm wondering
(19:37):
if that's something that wecan do because you're saying
several significant things andwe can't do all of the things.
But you're saying so much stuffthat feels like it would be
fascinating to understand moredeeply instead of talking more
like externally about people.
(19:57):
So I'm wondering how you wouldfeel if I asked you questions
to sink more into some stuff.
Oh, I'm totally open.
Okay.
All right.
I am wondering if there areany places where in your
reflection- are there anyplaces where you maybe didn't
(20:17):
honor your values in the waythat you really wanted to?
Were there any of thoseplaces that you look back
and you see, oh, crap...
that's not what I wantto be doing for myself.
And are there any ofthose moments that you
are willing to speak to?
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I definitely will.
One that came to my mind,I know we had this early
(20:37):
discussion around boundaries.
About honoring, yourselfand about self care and, I
definitely have to say thatin the last place I was at
and adding the stress ofCOVID on top of that, really
my whole life felt like itjust was spinning out of
(20:58):
control in terms of the work.
Having to like alreadyhave a big job.
And that required administrationand teaching at the same
time, but then having tolearn this whole new skill
set of doing Zoom, Zoom class.
I just felt like I wasworking to nth degree.
It was endless weekends andnights, and I felt like my
(21:20):
family really suffered for that.
They were very great about it.
They were patient about it.
But I think they've seen mein higher ed for so long.
They're used to, oh, yeah, youalways have a class to prep.
You always have atraining to work on.
You have students to place.
And so all thatjust really blew up.
And I think once there weresome other changes that were
(21:42):
made, in the last year thatI knew was not gonna, there
was just no way humanly, I wasgoing to be able to honor like
the value of doing my job well.
honoring that and beavailable for my family.
I don't know how I could havecorrected it because COVID
just changed everything.
(22:03):
I know I tried to be moreskilled, I think per se, in
training on how to engage mystudents in a Zoom setting.
But for someone who's a,an older, mature Gen X-
er, it, it just was reallychallenging to do that.
And yet, ultimately, Iremember thinking about
this, Charmaine, after Ifinished my last class last
(22:26):
semester, that I don't thinklooking back, I don't think
my students really cared thatmuch how good I was on Zoom.
You know what I mean?
I, If I leaned more into whatI knew I was good at, I think
that there was something thathappened in my mind that said,
don't be yourself anymore.
They want this.
(22:47):
The younger generations,they want this, they want
more pizzazz in your slides.
And it comes to find, likewhen I looked back to see how
many people even watch thelectures I spent hours on the
weekend recording this lecture,hardly anybody watched it.
I should have looked back thenin the middle of class to go.
No one's watchingthis, let's just,
Pay attention.
(23:07):
Like that's a lessonlearned, okay, I think what
stopped me was the fearof looking and going, you
know what, I spent all thistime and nobody's watching.
That's,
Hold on.
Gotta tell me about that fear.
Just gotta justtell me about that.
I think in my mind, Iwas, I had an idea of what
I thought it would meanto do this lecture well.
(23:30):
I was trying to incorporate whatpeople were telling me about
students coming back into thezoom environment, this hybrid
zoom in person environment.
And I thought that everythingI had done before when I
was doing things in personlike wouldn't work anymore.
I have this way of interactingwith my students and I
present the material the oldfashioned way with the slides.
(23:53):
They're not always the mostbeautiful aesthetic looking
slides, but I roll it outbecause I want to do the
discussion while I'm lecturing.
I gave that up in my lastclass for 1 of my, for my in
person class and looking back,it was like, and I did these
lectures thinking that theywould watch them in their own
time at midnight, after theyput their kids They can listen
(24:15):
to the material and they wecan talk about it in class.
And what I learned was-when I asked them what did
you - what's coming up foryou, what did you discuss?
They didn't have muchto say, because they
hadn't listened to it.
And I don't know whey it didn't
dawn on me to go-
we'll check and see if they lookto see if they've watched it.
And so I think if I could justdo that over and just go back
(24:38):
to trust that what has workedin the past, even though this
is a different group of studentsimpacted by COVID and zoom,
go back to what was, was okay.
Like what was effective before.
That's a lesson that I learned.
There's others too.
There was one.
Oh, Charmaine, andyou were presenting at
this conference, right?
(24:58):
And I was in your workshop.
Yeah.
Yeah, something happened.
Yeah.
No, I made this pact.
Okay, you had this workshop.
You were talking about theimportance of vulnerability,
Yes, yeah, that sounds right.
In your organization, likehow to help leaders be more
vulnerable and develop morerelationships with their staff.
And I remember taking this awayand going, you know what, my
(25:21):
next class, I had somethinghappen in the prior class
that I wasn't very, I wasn'tfacilitating a discussion
around some issues that studentswere having around a film
that I was showing or video.
And I said to myself, Ineed to redo that or check
in with them about that.
And I didn't, I totallychickened out and I
(25:41):
totally avoided doing what
Oh my gosh.
and I look back and I'm like,I lost that opportunity.
And then I said to myself, okay,
Why'd you chicken out?
I, that's a good question.
That's a good one.
I got to think on that.
I think maybe I was worried.
I wouldn't like the very fearof not handling or debriefing
(26:02):
that discussion came back to me.
Maybe it'll happen againwhile I'm trying to find
out what I'm doing wrong.
I won't be able to handle it.
And maybe I think too, I thinkI was like, worried I'd fall
apart, in class, like I'd cry.
Like I just, I couldn't be, andI'm getting emotional about it
(26:23):
now, I couldn't be that person.
I
Yeah,
couldn't be strong for them.
Yeah.
I couldn't model, butI wanted them to see.
Maybe this would have been okay.
Yeah, yes.
(26:44):
Yes, I.
I'm getting emotional too.
I asked because there, I feltin you that you really wanted
to do it and then when yousaid you chickened out, I'm
like, that's so interesting.
'Cause I know you enoughto know there was a
deep desire to do it.
So whatever the reasonwas pretty significant.
(27:06):
And your reasoning is so normal.
Like your reasoning is theexact reason why people in any
leadership role, people have theprivilege to be in leadership
roles- don't do it like whatyou just lived out is exactly
(27:26):
what happens for leaders.
And a part of me wants tojust, hold you and be like,
Oh my gosh, I totally get it.
This is so emotional.
And then the other part, whichis really hard to do right
now, the other part is this isalso the moment to hold and say
to leaders like we also havethe privilege to not do it.
(27:50):
And like both ofthose things are true.
It's a hard realityto hold both.
I just honestly like I'm veryaware that we are recording
this and I wasn't anticipatingI wasn't anticipating
any of this to occur.
I want to thank you forbeing this vulnerable
and being this honest.
(28:11):
People do not haveto be this honest.
They don't.
I don't know anything elseto say to offer you in
this moment because it'sjust a real life moment.
What are you thinking?
What are you feeling right now?
I'm really glad that we havethe space to talk about this
because I think, supervisorsand leaders feel like they
(28:32):
have to have it all together.
You know what I mean?
Or give the illusion thatthey're a perfect leader.
I remember when I took,when to be a supervisor for
clinicians, you have to takelike a supervision class.
And I did this 25years ago, at least.
I remember buying thisbook about how to be a good
(28:53):
supervisor, because you know,we talk about imposter syndrome.
We didn't call itthat back then, but I
think that is so real.
It's so real.
And it's for some peopleit's unconscious that
they may not realizethat's going on for them.
And so they put on thiskind of bravado about them.
And yet, when you ask someonewho's under a supervisor, I
(29:16):
think they don't expect that.
They want someone to be agood supervisor, know how
to teach them their job, andlike the mechanics of that.
But in the end, Idon't think they want
someone that's inhuman.
You know what I mean?
I think they want to seesomeone who's human, who
has flaws and is able tocome back to that, right?
(29:39):
If you make a mistake andyou mess up, be able to
come back to that and say,you know what, I messed up.
Or, can we talkabout what happened?
Exactly what you're modeling.
And that is,
Yeah.
let's go a little bit deeperif you're able to do that.
I'm going to hold you, butI want to, go back to what
happened and unpack a little bitso that I can learn from that.
(30:03):
And I think that's reallyimportant work to be doing
because there's a lot ofinteractions that happen
between supervisors and workers.
And I, I don't mean to useworkers in a, in a negative
way, but just the positionalityof it- that goes unnoticed.
The humanity part of thework and supervising people.
(30:26):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
You, just, thankyou for all of it.
I, You said earlier on whenyou were talking, the things
that staff or students, thingsthat people are really wanting.
And there is a pressure thatpeople with the privilege to
lead have, which is to do itperfectly and not get it wrong.
(30:49):
That is absolutely a thing.
And what I have been tryingto coach and teach leaders
is that isn't what staffand students, that's not
what is being looked for.
It isn't it is the- I don'tknow everything I'm trying to
(31:09):
do the things I'm open to hearhow it can be improved so we
can co-create this together.
And I think the fear aboutnot knowing, I don't know
how it's going to go, nothaving control over how it
will go and the outcome can be
really difficult for people.
There's just, there is so muchnormal, normalized experience
(31:33):
in what you're sharing.
And I have to be honest,too, even though I train and
teach people this stuff, Ihave very difficult moments.
I'm honestly recalling, therewas a whole, I put people
into groups in a scenario.
In one group, I don'tknow what happened.
One person left the room.
(31:54):
And I was really confused.
I had no idea what happened andtried to assess the situation.
And I just, I really felt,I have no idea what's, I
really felt that I have noidea what's going to happen.
Not even sure what to say,but I can't just sit here.
A whole dialogue.
I can't just sit here.
If I sit here, thenwhat does that say?
Everyone else noticedit was a whole thing.
(32:15):
So then I just got up andstarted walking over in the
direction, still- I had noidea what I was going to say.
I was very nervous.
I sat down and as honestas I could, I was really
inquiring about what happenedand being honest too- I,
I'm really not sure whatto do in this situation.
I have some wonderings.
(32:35):
How can we get clarity so thatwe know what just happened?
What is it that people arewanting in this situation?
How can I help you get it?
Once I'm in it, I think Ican ask questions, but there
is a reality of even someonewho teaches people to do it.
I have my own momentsof, I would rather
avoid this right now.
(32:56):
I really would rather avoid it.
And I'm certain I have, Ichoose to avoid at times too.
I'm not going to act likeI speak on everything.
When you were talking, though,this is the one that just really
lifted up because I did it andI had no idea what I was doing.
It went fine, it didn't endwith everybody feeling their
(33:18):
best, but it ended with- it wastalked about and there's some
idea of how everybody felt.
And also because this isin a wider space, we also
communicate things to peoplein larger spaces, even
if they weren't involved-because they are involved.
They're in the space too.
(33:38):
I felt very aware that ifI didn't say something, I'm
actually communicating anotherthing to everybody else.
That felt dangerous to me.
Yeah.
Yeah, and what you justsaid about when you don't
communicate something, right?
That's exactly whathappened to me.
That's exactly whathappened to me.
(33:59):
And then there was aninteresting outcome to that and
I look back at that now and I'mlike, See, that's not what I
wanted to have happen becauseof the power dynamic in my class
because I'm the teacher, right?
The people that wanted totalk about this issue, the
thing that was making themupset about this film or this
(34:19):
video, they decided to, or onedecided to silence themselves
for the rest of the class.
And I'm thinking that's notthe outcome I really wanted.
I look back at this and I reallyagain, appreciate the space
because I was in a trainingonce and I heard this expression
about, there's no expirationdate when you can do a do over.
(34:41):
So even though that happened,like I can't go back to my
class now it's done, right?
But I'm learning, be open to thelearning and then think about,
okay, if this happens again in agroup setting and hopefully the
next time, I'll be more brave.
Like I can always go back tosomething that didn't land well,
(35:02):
or I didn't facilitate well.
At least acknowledge whathappened the last time, right?
So that people will go,okay, she realized it because
otherwise it creates a barrier.
People are like, Oh, I don'tknow if I can trust her.
She's not a safe personfor me because she didn't
acknowledge the obviouselephant that's there.
(35:24):
Right.
Yes, that is- and this iswhy I'm saying there's so
much similarity in highered and in organizations.
It's very much the same,and you're right, the things
the we communicate when wedon't say are pretty strong.
It's the same thing thatwe tell, okay, my mind's
going in a lot of places.
(35:44):
It's this parallel processbecause leaders and
organizations will ask staffto do something with clients
or customers that they arenot willing to do with staff.
It is the same thing thatas people teaching students
to do something with clientsreally struggle doing it
themselves with students.
It's the same.
I appreciate youeven referencing the,
(36:07):
segment I facilitatedat that CRT convening.
Because before I did it, I,do you know how nervous I was?
I was very aware that I waswalking into a space telling
people who have been doing thisfor years and decades, I was
coming into the space to say,Hey, even though you've been
doing this for a long time, youare missing this huge component.
(36:29):
I was so nervous, even thoughI believe in it, I knew
what I was walking into.
And I appreciate hearingyour own reflection from
that experience, because itat least helps me understand
it makes sense to people.
What you're sayingyour whole example is a
(36:53):
really great illustrationof the importance of
needing to develop leadershipin any role capacity to
be able to hold spaces.
If we are unable to hold thespace, then it's really hard
to engage on a deeper levelwith students and with staff.
It's really hard to do that.
(37:14):
appreciate you.
Thank you, Charmaine.
As you're speaking aboutthis and I'm thinking about,
I appreciate you sharinghow, you were nervous.
Not that I would think thatyou wouldn't be nervous, but
I think there's so much to belearned right across each other.
Like I, I've never everconsidered myself an expert
(37:36):
like on CRT, it's this processof I just things unfold.
Once I started to internalizesome of the basic tenets and
started to see these connectionsout in the world, it's an
ever, unfolding process.
And I always look forwardto hearing from people
that are along that samejourney, wherever they're
(38:00):
at, because there's alwayssomething to be learned.
I learned a great dealfrom your workshop.
I do appreciatewhat you're saying.
There's a, something elseI wanted to just circle
back to because it honestlyfelt very tangible.
I meant to do thatwas in the going back.
When we don't do things theway that we want, when we might
have missed the opportunity.
(38:22):
I love the expirationdate thing.
There isn't 1 andI see that 2 ways.
Same thing that we tellstaff with clients.
Hey, you can always circle back.
That's the thing.
You can always circle backto it's the same thing
in our leadership roles.
We didn't get it right.
We can circle back.
I actually have done that.
And I've actually done thatseveral times because I
(38:43):
reflect and I realize, okay,it wasn't the best thing.
So I will come back andsay, I've been doing some
reflection and I realized thismight not have landed well
for people, or I know thisdidn't land well for people.
And I'd like to talk aboutthat or give you an opportunity
to share or discuss whatevermakes sense, but the circling
(39:04):
back feels super tangible.
And then the second piece ofthat is in situations like yours
where, okay, the class is over.
You can't go backand do anything.
You're not going to emaileverybody and say, sorry
about that thing two years.
You're not going to do that.
So there is an elementof, to me, the circle
back is the next time.
(39:25):
Is the moving forwardwith the lesson.
Is allowing that toimpact behavior change.
I know people know this in theirminds, but there are inevitable
moments where these thingsthey surf-, they surface back.
And because of all thestuff before and the added
layer of now avoidance.
(39:46):
I have also seen that people cancrumble in those moments too.
I've seen that.
It is that point ofmoving into action.
Honestly, it's likeyou just gotta do it.
It just feels likethat sometimes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yes.
I believe that too.
(40:06):
It's like the only way youcan move through that fear
is by working through it.
By, by doing it, doing the thingthat you're afraid of doing.
Because usually when you endup doing it, the worst thing
that you thought was goingto happen did not happen.
And then, it's thatphysiological piece
(40:27):
about like exposure,response, prevention "ERP".
We teach people if theyare dealing with obsessive
compulsive disorder, youface the thing you're really
afraid of in graded steps.
But your body habituates to thatfear, that it won't be such this
great fearful situation anymore.
(40:47):
It just, it getslower and lower.
That fear does.
And then it's noteven a fear anymore.
So I always keep that inthe back of my mind when I'm
thinking about things that Iapproach that I want to avoid
Yeah.
and go, if I can just dothis in the best way I can,
showing up the best waypossible, then I bet you will
(41:10):
still help me in the end.
Absolutely.
I have another, this isprobably my last question.
I was thinking, it would bereally cool to, reflect on,
because there's a part, thevery, very small part of this
conversation that we're having,which was a window into how
(41:32):
I would work with people.
Which is the pausing thezooming in and then the
sinking into a situation.
Would it be okay if I askedyou what that felt like?
Because I can always tell peoplewhat the work is like with us.
I can always do that.
(41:52):
But I'm like, it'snot a training.
It's not me sharing information.
It's very experiential.
So would you allow meto ask this question?
Would you be open to answeringwhat that specific process of
zooming in and sinking intothe moment was like for you?
And if you felt like maybe thelearning was a bit different.
Sure.
Yeah.
(42:14):
It wasn't that scary to do that.
You know why?
Because it was you.
Ah.
It was you.
Like, you are so thoughtful,and you are so reflective,
and you hear people well.
At least my experience ofyou is that you have this
ability to take in what peopleare saying, and you quickly
(42:36):
make these connections.
And then you're able toreflect it back to someone
in a way that- you reallydo facilitate that so well.
So you inviting me, it justfeels like I don't even have
any hesitation to do that.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And it, for me, it wasactually very cathartic.
(42:56):
Because it's somethingthat was on my mind.
You know what I mean?
And it never reallyresolved itself.
And I haven't really had achance to really talk it out
to someone who really wasinterested in knowing about deep
diving into something thatis painful to reflect on.
So you've set it up sonicely that it didn't
(43:20):
feel at all that hard.
And if anything, it just helpedme feel really glad that I did.
And that it's importantwork to do, and that we
can't also do it ourselves.
So like I've been keepinga journal- Which, by the
way, I'm not a big journalwriter because it just takes
more time out of my day.
(43:40):
But I have been doing just alittle excerpt here and there
about how I'm feeling as I'mmaking these transitions,
because I don't want thesenegative distortions to always,
be the loudest voice in my head.
I have to write down momentsof, victory, moments of
challenging those negativethoughts, and that helps.
(44:03):
And no, it felt really good.
And I think the point I wantedto make was that to have a
partner to do that with, orto have a trusted friend or
colleague to do that with, Ithink is a very good practice.
I actually, I think I liedbecause one of the things that
you and I talked about whenwe were setting this up, that
I do feel like I would regretnot bringing up, was how your
(44:28):
experience is driven by whoyou are as an Asian American
woman, what did you say?
You said Asian American,and I don't, want to speak
to what that was for you.
I think the question would be,what about that part of your
identity has influenced thesedifferent experiences that
(44:50):
we're actually talking about?
Especially the ones where,because I remember you
were tying it to how yousaid, it impacts how you
advocate for yourself oreven for other people.
It impacts what youmight say and not say.
Yeah,
So do you want toshare anything on that?
sure.
Thank you for bringingup that question again.
(45:11):
So much of my decisions inlife, in work, and in play,
is very much related to mybeing Asian American, being
Chinese American, being thirdgeneration and sixth generation,
and also being female.
Those two things, gender andethnicity, race, for me is
(45:32):
really noticeable and impactful.
And I remember, on one hand,when I'm thinking about today's
conversation, I think a lotabout the model minority
myth and being raised in thatand what it's done for me to
amp up this sort of feelinglike you have to be perfect.
(45:52):
You have to never fail.
You have to be exceptionalat what you do, and you
have to be, you have to workreally hard, over time, that
all just plays into that.
And then the piece aboutadvocacy is, for me, and I know
it's different for differentAsian Americans for sure,
(46:12):
but, it's working throughwhat I call the backdoor.
That I think the avenue for mewhere I feel most comfortable
about change is really workingthat back door, working through
relationships and, being moresubtle about how to influence
or advocate for someone.
(46:33):
Now, it doesn't mean I don'tknow how to speak directly when
I'm like advocating for I havean easier time, for instance,
advocating for a client.
You know what I mean?
Directly for someonethan say myself.
That I think goes to thewanting to do the job right
kind of thing, but, certainlythat plays a part in it.
And just, I think if, especiallyif you are working with
(46:55):
Asian Americans in a worksetting, it is really easy.
And now I'm just reflectingabout my experiences,
the Asian Americanwoman in group settings.
It is very easy for us tofeel or for me to feel like
a noticed and forgotten.
And unless someone reachesout and says, Hey, Sharon,
what do you think about that?
(47:16):
I may not say anything atall, like in a group setting,
unless it's something I'mreally passionate about.
Or if it really ignitessomething, or someone
says something that Ithink is really an error,
then I'll say something.
But, I've been in situationsCharmaine where- and I started
taking note of this more in thelast five years, where I'll,
(47:36):
people just don't even think I'mthere, as if I was invisible.
So I'm much morecognizant of that.
And I think it's so importantto help people that feel
invisible, and that have beenmarginalized in that way, to
make sure to make room for them.
Make space for them, makesure to check in on them,
when they're in groupsettings or in meetings.
(47:57):
Or do the backdoor method afterthe meeting, check in with
them to find out what theythought about that meeting.
Because I remember in gradschool people saying, you all,
meaning the Asian Americans thatwere in a group together, you're
all so quiet in class, but thenyou get out of class and you're
like, jabbering away, right?
(48:18):
And you never knowwhat to say to that.
It's like what we do, we havea lot of thoughts and feelings
about what's being said, butbecause of model minority
myth, because of also howwe're socialized to behave
maybe in particular ways- don'tstand out, don't make waves.
That's, I'm thinkinglike Chinese culture.
My mom was very much about that,don't stand out, and like she
(48:40):
would never ask for a raise.
She wouldn't.
And then she was always thankfulwhen someone else in the office
asked for the raise, and theywere doing the same job, and
then she would benefit from it.
You
keep your head down, you do yourwork, don't say anything, you
don't create problems, you do,you be the best you can be, you
work overtime if you need to.
That's just what it meansto, be a good worker,
(49:02):
good professional.
Yeah.
Oh my.
Oh, you're, oh, you'resaying so much stuff.
I, there's two things thatyou've actually mentioned
in this time with us todaythat I am thinking these
need to be separate episodes.
One was the, thenegative narrative.
I think there are verycommon negative narratives in
(49:23):
people in leadership roles.
And then this other one thatyou're really lifting up is,
and you're honest, you'remaking me think about me.
And I know that I'mnot the only one.
When we have theseexperiences from our
cultures, identities that arehistorically marginalized,
historically oppressed.
(49:45):
And then there, there isthe intersection of having
positions of privilege thatrequire us to wrestle with that.
If we're doing the work, itrequires us to wrestle with it.
It requires us towrestle with it.
And I have to do, I cannot tellyou, I, the more I do this work,
the more I have to acknowledgemy internalized oppression
(50:08):
and what it looks like becauseof my identities, cultures.
I, it is all the time.
When you were saying whatyou were saying, I'm like,
Oh my gosh, this makes sense.
And then I was thinkingabout some of the stuff
that you were sharing withyour experiences just today.
And what that looks like,maybe not saying something that
(50:30):
extra layer of who you are, andthere's that point where we have
these experiences and then wehave these privileged positions.
So what does that mean?
And what does it look like?
That's a whole other episode,but I would really love
to have that with you andmaybe a couple other people.
But you've got my mindgoing and you're saying so
(50:51):
much really great impactfulinformation and all of those
need to be unpacked themselves.
Thank you.
Thank you, Charmaine,for this opportunity.
Yes.
Yes.
I don't know about you.
this felt like an episode,but it also felt like, we were
just really going wherever.
There were momentsof my own reflection.
(51:12):
You gave me somethings to think about.
One of the things to thinkabout is I really would
love to be the person thatjournals all the nice things.
I don't journal the nice things.
I journal the, I can'tstand today things.
That's what I do.
You put this on my plate of,you could benefit from some
(51:33):
good gratefulness stuff.
Thank you for that, actually.
Thank you.
Anything else we want tosay before we wrap up?
I, there's so much.
That I just love the richnessof these conversations and,
I appreciate just, again,your ability to track what
I'm saying and be able tobring these points back.
(51:55):
And say, Hey, let's talkabout this a little bit,
because my mind is going inso many different directions.
And I just think you'reso skilled at this.
And I think you're inthe perfect place to be
doing this kind of work.
So I just want to affirm you forall that you're doing, because
this is really meaningfuland impactful and important.
(52:15):
I feel seen, I think youhave a gift in, really
helping people to feelseen in their uniqueness as
well as in whatever spacethey're in or whatever place
they're in at that time.
I certainly didn't planto, be as vulnerable.
But I think I really, Ijust, you made it really
(52:37):
comfortable and you validatedthe importance of the work.
And so I justcouldn't resist you.
You just, you'recompletely irresistible.
Oh, my goodness.
Thank you.
That.
That means a lot.
It really does.
And it's validatingand confirming.
Especially as someone whohas chosen a different path,
(53:01):
and this is another longstory that I won't even
tell maybe another day.
But I just really wantedto do this work and I
was really trying to fitinto what it looks like.
And
I was denied heavilytrying to fit into what
this work looks like.
Then I decided, I careenough to try it differently
(53:22):
and now I'm just doingmy thing in this area.
I, what you're sayingis very important to me.
I really appreciateyour kind words.
I need to hear them.
I need to receive them.
And I thank you for, I knowyou said, I can't resist you.
To be honest though, noteverybody is able to come
(53:44):
into a space like this.
We're recording and toallow it to be what it is.
I really thank you for thatwhen we were in the moment.
So well we're here.
We're here.
We are here.
This is what it looks like.
Yeah, I wasn't anticipatingwhat today was and I love that.
So thank you.
(54:05):
All right.
today was a really cool day.
I, I really hope that peoplelistening got a chance to see
like what it really looks liketo have an open dialogue and
go in the directions that itneeds to go and what it can
also look like to capturereally significant moments
for people that we are withto pay more attention to
(54:26):
them and to hold them and tozoom in and to be curious and
learn how to ask questions.
And be honest about thethings that maybe we didn't
do so well and reflectthe process of reflection.
Just- How important that isand how much that can impact
what we're able to learnabout ourselves and how we
can change our behaviors andmake the change to systems
(54:49):
that we really want to make.
So again, I thank you, Sharon,for being here with me.
If people want to get incontact with you, what is
the best way to do that?
I would say, my email address,I'm on LinkedIn and, under
Sharon Chun Wetterau and thenmy email address at Dominguez,
it's swetterau, s w e t t er a u at c s u d h dot edu.
(55:14):
That's another wayto find me too.
Perfect.
I will also include thatin the description if
people want to see it.
And, you can visitme on my website at
livingunapologetically.
com to connect with me.
The, my social mediahandles are there.
You can always send an email.
There are free toolsavailable to you to help
you deepen your practice.
(55:35):
Help you deepen your abilityto be in relationships
with each other.
So come back if you alsowant to see more episodes.
On my website, you willhave access to my book,
Bias Conscious Leadership,a Framework for Leading with
Action and Accountability.
That's it for now.
So thanks for listening.
Yeah.
I hope to connectsoon until next time.
(55:55):
Bye.
Bye.
I wasn't anticipatingany of this to occur.
(00:03):
I want to thank you forbeing this vulnerable
and being this honest.
People do not haveto be this honest.
They don't.
I don't know anything elseto say to offer you in
this moment because it'sjust a real life moment.
What are you thinking?
What are you feeling right now?
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out
(00:23):
Loud Discussion Seriesand today we were talking
about necessary reflectionsafter stepping down from a
long time leadership role.
I am Charmaine Utz, aRelational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up inour interactions with each
other in professional settings
or in the places where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
(00:46):
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our everydayinteractions so that we can
learn from them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the views,opinions, the things that I
share in this series, theyare opinions of my own.
They are not representativeof agencies by which I am
(01:08):
employed or contracted by.
With me I haveSharon Chun Wetterau.
(01:28):
Thank you for joining today.
Thank you, Charmaine.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Yes.
So Sharon and I were talkingand I was just reflecting on
how I came to know her andthe capacities that we've been
able to work together and apart of me feels very connected
to you like I've known youfor a long time and then when
(01:51):
I reflect back I realize ithasn't been that long and
I think it's because of you
how you show up in spacesand the impact that I've seen
you have on so many people.
So we worked together at CalState Dominguez Hills, and
I was adjunct faculty there.
(02:11):
And because of you, I wasactually brought on board.
We have a mutual colleaguethat put us in touch and it
just moves so fast and I don'teven know if, you know, this,
but that was one of my goals-
to be able to teach.
And I really wanted tocome back to Dominguez.
You were instrumentalin doing that.
(02:32):
I never even told you that.
Thank you.
Oh, you're welcome, Charmaine.
We are so fortunateto have had you.
Thank you.
You've had decades of experiencein various capacities.
Your impact is here inCalifornia and over in Ohio,
and you also shared yourstory and people that were
(02:53):
important to you and howyou grew as a professional
and like a spiritual piece.
Would you mind justsharing any part of who
you are in your journey?
Thanks, Charmaine.
I know there's a lot tosay because I've been in
the social work field nowfor 30 years, post MSW.
(03:13):
And so there's been a lot ofdifferent journeys I've been
on as a direct practitioner.
I am licensed clinicalsocial worker in California.
I'm also a licensed independentsocial worker in Ohio.
I've just been so lucky inmy life to have been working
direct practice, working, reallystarted in residential treatment
in Hollywood with kids, inLA County's DCFS, Department
(03:38):
of Children and FamilyServices, Child Welfare System.
And then later, inone of my many jobs,
I've had well over 10.
Coming back as a trainerand a consultant through
UCLA to work with newhires for LA County DCFS.
And I've had an opportunityto coordinate programs and be
over budgets to help empowerupcoming BSW and MSW students
(04:05):
to work in child welfare.
So I've been in highereducation for over 24 years
and between UCLA, Fresno State,Ohio State College of Social
Work, and also at Dominguezwhere I closed my time with
higher ed for 10 years there.
And, did a lot of trainingall over the place, to,
(04:25):
um, help line staff,supervisors, administrators,
look at different aspectsrelated to, in the old
days we called it culturalcompetence, and oppression.
And I've had opportunitiesto also even develop,
like in Ohio, some modulesrelated to the Asian Pacific
(04:46):
Islander communities.
And also the Latinx communities.
I'm currently working forhealthcare plan looking at
navigation of systems andhelping to connect people to
resources or to something thatwould help them get to the
next place they want to be.
I am just really blessed tohave had these opportunities.
(05:09):
I am a mother.
I have two kids andone's in college and
one's in high school.
I'm married.
I also, I think my values and mybelief system, which is rooted
in Christianity, which I wasn'traised in, but, I, became a
Christian when I was a teenager.
And so that has also impactedsome of the opportunities
that came my way, as well asimpacted how I want to look
(05:33):
at students and view students,or how I want to treat people.
Yeah, you have a ton ofexperience and I thank you
for sharing the things thatfill you and your values.
I absolutely love that.
I'd like to ask for a moment,talk about what I don't think
we talk about enough in thefield is there are a lot
(05:54):
of experiences that existin organizations that also
exist in higher education.
Very, very similar dynamicswhile different industries,
and I think they havetheir own problems and
greatness about them.
There's a lot ofsimilar dynamics.
And as you were sharing yourjourney privately with me, I
(06:16):
was really hearing how yourjourney can apply to not
just people who are familiarwith higher ed, also in
spaces outside of, I'mreally looking forward to
hearing your perspective.
That said, you've had a lotof leadership roles and you've
stepped down since then, andyou were telling me about these
(06:39):
things that you were reflectingon and these aha moments.
I felt like thisneeded to be captured.
There's so much in yourreflection that I think
could help current leaders,leaders in any capacity.
I think it'd be reallyfascinating for staff
and even students to hearabout this reflection.
That's where we'regoing to go today.
(07:00):
Let's start with what told you-hey, I need to reflect on this.
And what has thatbeen like for you?
I think change necessitatesreflection and sometimes
not out of your own will.
And I think when moving froma position that I was very
comfortable in for, 10 years atDominguez and many years prior
(07:23):
at different places, there's acertain skill set you develop.
You're still using, youknow, as a social worker,
solid assessment skills,and that's across the board.
And so I think because thingsin my last position we're not
aligning with my values, Ifelt I needed to make a change.
(07:45):
Even though I wasn't sure whatI was quite getting myself into.
I think when you'rein higher education.
You have sort of a trajectoryin your mind that's
going to happen to you.
And I did, I had a, okay,maybe 60, that 60 seems to
be this year you sort ofretire from higher head,
but it, it depends, right?
(08:06):
How much service credityou have and all that.
But that was sort ofwhat was in my mind.
So to have to leave that earlywas not something I expected.
And so, when you're goingthrough that process of
thinking about making achange and a move, you have
to really think very deeplyabout why you're doing it.
So it does require this needfor reflection and, talking
(08:27):
with other people and reflectingon their reflections and
weighing the pros and cons.
Yes.
So you, and again, shareas you feel comfortable
and safe to share.
You just, again, privatelyhad, were telling me about
so many of your aha moments.
I'm curious to know were thereany things that surprised you as
(08:50):
you were doing this reflection?
Were there any things thatjust felt, Oh, I wish this, or,
Oh, this really got me good.
Yeah.
I think, I think when, howpeople like to think about,
like when they contemplatemaking a job change, and you
know how the grass is alwaysgreener on the other side.
(09:11):
So there's a little bit oflike excitement that happens
when you consider somethingdifferent and new possibilities.
And so I think I was definitelyexperiencing that piece of oh,
maybe some of the things thatis not working out for me here
in this position, I can nowhave that in this other place.
(09:31):
And so that was exciting to mebecause I was trying to think
about work life balance moreand it's something that it
was gnawing at me for a while.
And this is something also whenyou're an educator, you preach
a lot to the choir, or youpreach a lot to students about
how you want them to developas practitioners and do more
than survive in social work,but to thrive in social work.
(09:55):
And so you start realizing,oh, I need to take some
of this advice for myself.
And when I finally madethat, decisional balance, or
whatever we say in motivationalinterviewing to, go to the
other side and make thatchange, there's also that hope
and optimism, but then there'salso the scare, the fear that
goes with making a change.
And so I think, because
(10:16):
I was moving into a positionthat I was never really
intending to go to, it wasn'ton my radar, but again, I was
thinking about the opportunitythat was presenting to myself
that may have some value to,or may uphold one of these
other values I have, whichis the work life balance.
I had to reallyconsider that very much.
(10:38):
And so I had to walk into aposition that I really, it
was going to have a lot ofchallenges for me because
I hadn't been in directpractice for over 24 years.
And I don't know if it's justunsaid or in social work, people
tend to go direct practiceand then they just end up
getting more macro in the end.
(10:58):
You know, they move intosupervisor, administrator,
consultant positions, butthey, unless they do a
private practice, they don'tusually return to like care
management, case management.
There's thishierarchy around that.
And so I definitely had toreally think about, okay,
who am I, what do I reallylike in the work that I do?
(11:22):
And in my entire career, whenI think about the common theme
of the skill that I have,that I do well in, and that
is helping people feel seen,helping people feel heard, and
helping them have a sense oflike hope for the next step.
(11:43):
And in that coordinationof care or of placements
or whatever that is, it'sall related to each other.
And so I really was thinkingabout that a lot about
that was really what wasattractive for me for this
new position that I'm in
Yeah.
that and I, I don't see it as anegative, some people are like,
(12:03):
oh, you're doing direct practiceagain, as opposed to, living the
high life in higher education,which was a myth to that.
You're talking aboutsomething, I'm going to lift
it up a little bit more.
And it is this societalvalue placed on moving up
(12:30):
a hierarchy of positions.
You start at the bottom.
The bottom is direct serve-this is what society tells
us and the things they valueand the money and all of
that stuff reinforces you are
supposed to want to move upin position level in money, in
(12:52):
significance and all of that.
When you were talking abouthow you imagined your life and
then at 60 and what it wouldlook like, I was seeing this
envisioning of a trajectory.
I had it myself.
And this is honestly why Iwas making the connection.
As you were talking, Iremember feeling the same way.
I felt the same way.
(13:13):
I also felt like I felt I hadan awareness of it and I kept
valuing this idea of moving up.
And I also remember that Iwas so committed to that,
that it contributed to one ofthe most painful professional
experiences I ever had.
(13:33):
I was trying to move upin a place that was trying
to push me down so much.
It just, it came to a placewhere it really took me out.
It took me out physicallyand mentally, emotionally,
and spirit- it took meout in every single way.
(13:54):
And it wasn't till afterI decided I let it all go
because it was I startedimagining doing, causing
physical harm to people.
I started imaginingmyself rather just living
with my cats outside.
I just, it, I wanted anythingbut what I was doing, and
started to imagine another life.
And I had to let it go.
And I took several weeks off.
(14:15):
It just so happened, I wasblessed and fortunate enough
to leave the job withoutanything else, and my last day
I happened to get a job offer.
It just happened that way,and I took several weeks off,
and in that process of my ownreflection, I realized how
much I really wanted somethingthat was some sort of level up.
(14:37):
That you're leveling up,you're doing better in
life, you're worth more,it meant all of that.
What was interesting as I wentto a role that was seemingly,
it was less in position levelin terms of the hierarchy.
It was less in money.
It was everything.
But to your point, it was verymuch more aligned with what
I was actually wanting to do.
(14:57):
It really was.
I wanted to help develop people.
I wanted to help them grow.
I didn't care so muchabout the other things
that I was having to do.
And it comes witha lot of sacrifice.
And then there'sjust that struggle.
And I just wantedto talk about that.
It just hit mewhen you said that.
It really did.
And I just thank youfor bringing that up.
(15:18):
I do.
I just want to thank you formaking the space to have these
conversations because I do thinkpeople as they learn from others
in their profession have an ideaof where they're supposed to be.
And oftentimes life does notgive you that easy path to make
all that happen for you andyou have to pivot and you have
(15:41):
to adjust and I do think itreally does come down to values.
And, what you value and alsothe climate that you're in.
the job climate thatyou're in, which we know
can make or break it.
If the leadership is, develop,modeling a culture that is
oppressive or harassing orunsafe, it doesn't matter.
(16:05):
It doesn't matter if thatwas your dream job, if
you can't function in anenvironment that's toxic.
And then you're forced tosometimes have to lose and
meet, lose that positionand do something else.
But, I think it's importantto really honor who you
are and to know what isimportant for you at the time.
I think in life, youhave different needs
(16:27):
at different times.
It's like a developmental
model really when you thinkabout it in your life.
And sometimes you need positionsthat are don't maybe provide
the financial means that youwere hoping, but it's going
to give you peace of mind.
It's going to be somethingthat will work for you.
Maybe you have a lot ofcaregiving duties during
(16:47):
that time, and that youhave to take a second job
just to support yourself.
But it's just your mind isgoing to be in a better place.
Versus taking on a positionthat's maybe like a executive
director or assistant directorwhere you have more space
in your mind to be ableto do that, more peace in
your life, because thoseresponsibilities at home are
(17:08):
lighter or you have more help.
So there's just all theselittle nuanced kinds of things
that can happen to you inyour life or you have to move.
And that's happened tome a lot, where I didn't
anticipate leaving a position.
I had one position I loved.
And I had to leave it.
I had the best workingpartner and I was so sad to
(17:28):
leave it because I reallyenjoyed what I was doing,
but, change you know, and I
value my family.
Having to move to Ohio whenI didn't expect to do that.
Ultimately, looking back,was really helpful for me,
particularly in the area ofwhat we now call DEI work.
And because I startedto understand different
(17:50):
perspectives outsideof California.
Different politicalperspectives, different
ideas, and then I startedmeeting people that
honestly just did not know.
They really did not knowthat I was the first API
person they ever met.
And I remember when I usedto teach at Ohio State, I
taught this huge lecture hall.
(18:12):
And it was, it wasthe oppression class.
And I remember my students, acouple came up to me at the end
or during the class, and theysaid, yeah, you were the first-
like, when we saw you talk,we were thrown back because
you didn't have an accent.
And they were
my gosh.
away from that.
And this was 20 yearsago, but that could easily
(18:33):
still be the case now,in some places in the US.
And I had to startreally thinking about
those kinds of things.
That really helped me developas a person also with, a CRT,
Critical Race Theory lens.
Dominguez helped me withCRT to think of, okay, I see
these things that happen intheir family, or I see this
(18:54):
happen from their community,but connected to systems,
connected and even now, I'malways challenged by that when
I'm thinking about a client orI'm thinking about a coworker.
Or maybe something that someonesays that didn't, land on me.
I think about, oh, but thinkabout in a larger framework
systemically, how it isthat they, that might lead
(19:16):
them to behave that way.
And that helps, helps me to openup my mind a little bit more.
Yeah, yes.
So while I, while you'retalking, I'm like, I am so
curious about zooming into youand your internal experience.
I'm really curious aboutdoing that and I'm wondering
(19:37):
if that's something that wecan do because you're saying
several significant things andwe can't do all of the things.
But you're saying so much stuffthat feels like it would be
fascinating to understand moredeeply instead of talking more
like externally about people.
(19:57):
So I'm wondering how you wouldfeel if I asked you questions
to sink more into some stuff.
Oh, I'm totally open.
Okay.
All right.
I am wondering if there areany places where in your
reflection- are there anyplaces where you maybe didn't
(20:17):
honor your values in the waythat you really wanted to?
Were there any of thoseplaces that you look back
and you see, oh, crap...
that's not what I wantto be doing for myself.
And are there any ofthose moments that you
are willing to speak to?
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I definitely will.
One that came to my mind,I know we had this early
(20:37):
discussion around boundaries.
About honoring, yourselfand about self care and, I
definitely have to say thatin the last place I was at
and adding the stress ofCOVID on top of that, really
my whole life felt like itjust was spinning out of
(20:58):
control in terms of the work.
Having to like alreadyhave a big job.
And that required administrationand teaching at the same
time, but then having tolearn this whole new skill
set of doing Zoom, Zoom class.
I just felt like I wasworking to nth degree.
It was endless weekends andnights, and I felt like my
(21:20):
family really suffered for that.
They were very great about it.
They were patient about it.
But I think they've seen mein higher ed for so long.
They're used to, oh, yeah, youalways have a class to prep.
You always have atraining to work on.
You have students to place.
And so all thatjust really blew up.
And I think once there weresome other changes that were
(21:42):
made, in the last year thatI knew was not gonna, there
was just no way humanly, I wasgoing to be able to honor like
the value of doing my job well.
honoring that and beavailable for my family.
I don't know how I could havecorrected it because COVID
just changed everything.
(22:03):
I know I tried to be moreskilled, I think per se, in
training on how to engage mystudents in a Zoom setting.
But for someone who's a,an older, mature Gen X-
er, it, it just was reallychallenging to do that.
And yet, ultimately, Iremember thinking about
this, Charmaine, after Ifinished my last class last
(22:26):
semester, that I don't thinklooking back, I don't think
my students really cared thatmuch how good I was on Zoom.
You know what I mean?
I, If I leaned more into whatI knew I was good at, I think
that there was something thathappened in my mind that said,
don't be yourself anymore.
They want this.
(22:47):
The younger generations,they want this, they want
more pizzazz in your slides.
And it comes to find, likewhen I looked back to see how
many people even watch thelectures I spent hours on the
weekend recording this lecture,hardly anybody watched it.
I should have looked back thenin the middle of class to go.
No one's watchingthis, let's just,
Pay attention.
(23:07):
Like that's a lessonlearned, okay, I think what
stopped me was the fearof looking and going, you
know what, I spent all thistime and nobody's watching.
That's,
Hold on.
Gotta tell me about that fear.
Just gotta justtell me about that.
I think in my mind, Iwas, I had an idea of what
I thought it would meanto do this lecture well.
(23:30):
I was trying to incorporate whatpeople were telling me about
students coming back into thezoom environment, this hybrid
zoom in person environment.
And I thought that everythingI had done before when I
was doing things in personlike wouldn't work anymore.
I have this way of interactingwith my students and I
present the material the oldfashioned way with the slides.
(23:53):
They're not always the mostbeautiful aesthetic looking
slides, but I roll it outbecause I want to do the
discussion while I'm lecturing.
I gave that up in my lastclass for 1 of my, for my in
person class and looking back,it was like, and I did these
lectures thinking that theywould watch them in their own
time at midnight, after theyput their kids They can listen
(24:15):
to the material and they wecan talk about it in class.
And what I learned was-when I asked them what did
you - what's coming up foryou, what did you discuss?
They didn't have muchto say, because they
hadn't listened to it.
And I don't know whey it didn't
dawn on me to go-
we'll check and see if they lookto see if they've watched it.
And so I think if I could justdo that over and just go back
(24:38):
to trust that what has workedin the past, even though this
is a different group of studentsimpacted by COVID and zoom,
go back to what was, was okay.
Like what was effective before.
That's a lesson that I learned.
There's others too.
There was one.
Oh, Charmaine, andyou were presenting at
this conference, right?
(24:58):
And I was in your workshop.
Yeah.
Yeah, something happened.
Yeah.
No, I made this pact.
Okay, you had this workshop.
You were talking about theimportance of vulnerability,
Yes, yeah, that sounds right.
In your organization, likehow to help leaders be more
vulnerable and develop morerelationships with their staff.
And I remember taking this awayand going, you know what, my
(25:21):
next class, I had somethinghappen in the prior class
that I wasn't very, I wasn'tfacilitating a discussion
around some issues that studentswere having around a film
that I was showing or video.
And I said to myself, Ineed to redo that or check
in with them about that.
And I didn't, I totallychickened out and I
(25:41):
totally avoided doing what
Oh my gosh.
and I look back and I'm like,I lost that opportunity.
And then I said to myself, okay,
Why'd you chicken out?
I, that's a good question.
That's a good one.
I got to think on that.
I think maybe I was worried.
I wouldn't like the very fearof not handling or debriefing
(26:02):
that discussion came back to me.
Maybe it'll happen againwhile I'm trying to find
out what I'm doing wrong.
I won't be able to handle it.
And maybe I think too, I thinkI was like, worried I'd fall
apart, in class, like I'd cry.
Like I just, I couldn't be, andI'm getting emotional about it
(26:23):
now, I couldn't be that person.
I
Yeah,
couldn't be strong for them.
Yeah.
I couldn't model, butI wanted them to see.
Maybe this would have been okay.
Yeah, yes.
(26:44):
Yes, I.
I'm getting emotional too.
I asked because there, I feltin you that you really wanted
to do it and then when yousaid you chickened out, I'm
like, that's so interesting.
'Cause I know you enoughto know there was a
deep desire to do it.
So whatever the reasonwas pretty significant.
(27:06):
And your reasoning is so normal.
Like your reasoning is theexact reason why people in any
leadership role, people have theprivilege to be in leadership
roles- don't do it like whatyou just lived out is exactly
(27:26):
what happens for leaders.
And a part of me wants tojust, hold you and be like,
Oh my gosh, I totally get it.
This is so emotional.
And then the other part, whichis really hard to do right
now, the other part is this isalso the moment to hold and say
to leaders like we also havethe privilege to not do it.
(27:50):
And like both ofthose things are true.
It's a hard realityto hold both.
I just honestly like I'm veryaware that we are recording
this and I wasn't anticipatingI wasn't anticipating
any of this to occur.
I want to thank you forbeing this vulnerable
and being this honest.
(28:11):
People do not haveto be this honest.
They don't.
I don't know anything elseto say to offer you in
this moment because it'sjust a real life moment.
What are you thinking?
What are you feeling right now?
I'm really glad that we havethe space to talk about this
because I think, supervisorsand leaders feel like they
(28:32):
have to have it all together.
You know what I mean?
Or give the illusion thatthey're a perfect leader.
I remember when I took,when to be a supervisor for
clinicians, you have to takelike a supervision class.
And I did this 25years ago, at least.
I remember buying thisbook about how to be a good
(28:53):
supervisor, because you know,we talk about imposter syndrome.
We didn't call itthat back then, but I
think that is so real.
It's so real.
And it's for some peopleit's unconscious that
they may not realizethat's going on for them.
And so they put on thiskind of bravado about them.
And yet, when you ask someonewho's under a supervisor, I
(29:16):
think they don't expect that.
They want someone to be agood supervisor, know how
to teach them their job, andlike the mechanics of that.
But in the end, Idon't think they want
someone that's inhuman.
You know what I mean?
I think they want to seesomeone who's human, who
has flaws and is able tocome back to that, right?
(29:39):
If you make a mistake andyou mess up, be able to
come back to that and say,you know what, I messed up.
Or, can we talkabout what happened?
Exactly what you're modeling.
And that is,
Yeah.
let's go a little bit deeperif you're able to do that.
I'm going to hold you, butI want to, go back to what
happened and unpack a little bitso that I can learn from that.
(30:03):
And I think that's reallyimportant work to be doing
because there's a lot ofinteractions that happen
between supervisors and workers.
And I, I don't mean to useworkers in a, in a negative
way, but just the positionalityof it- that goes unnoticed.
The humanity part of thework and supervising people.
(30:26):
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
You, just, thankyou for all of it.
I, You said earlier on whenyou were talking, the things
that staff or students, thingsthat people are really wanting.
And there is a pressure thatpeople with the privilege to
lead have, which is to do itperfectly and not get it wrong.
(30:49):
That is absolutely a thing.
And what I have been tryingto coach and teach leaders
is that isn't what staffand students, that's not
what is being looked for.
It isn't it is the- I don'tknow everything I'm trying to
(31:09):
do the things I'm open to hearhow it can be improved so we
can co-create this together.
And I think the fear aboutnot knowing, I don't know
how it's going to go, nothaving control over how it
will go and the outcome can be
really difficult for people.
There's just, there is so muchnormal, normalized experience
(31:33):
in what you're sharing.
And I have to be honest,too, even though I train and
teach people this stuff, Ihave very difficult moments.
I'm honestly recalling, therewas a whole, I put people
into groups in a scenario.
In one group, I don'tknow what happened.
One person left the room.
(31:54):
And I was really confused.
I had no idea what happened andtried to assess the situation.
And I just, I really felt,I have no idea what's, I
really felt that I have noidea what's going to happen.
Not even sure what to say,but I can't just sit here.
A whole dialogue.
I can't just sit here.
If I sit here, thenwhat does that say?
Everyone else noticedit was a whole thing.
(32:15):
So then I just got up andstarted walking over in the
direction, still- I had noidea what I was going to say.
I was very nervous.
I sat down and as honestas I could, I was really
inquiring about what happenedand being honest too- I,
I'm really not sure whatto do in this situation.
I have some wonderings.
(32:35):
How can we get clarity so thatwe know what just happened?
What is it that people arewanting in this situation?
How can I help you get it?
Once I'm in it, I think Ican ask questions, but there
is a reality of even someonewho teaches people to do it.
I have my own momentsof, I would rather
avoid this right now.
(32:56):
I really would rather avoid it.
And I'm certain I have, Ichoose to avoid at times too.
I'm not going to act likeI speak on everything.
When you were talking, though,this is the one that just really
lifted up because I did it andI had no idea what I was doing.
It went fine, it didn't endwith everybody feeling their
(33:18):
best, but it ended with- it wastalked about and there's some
idea of how everybody felt.
And also because this isin a wider space, we also
communicate things to peoplein larger spaces, even
if they weren't involved-because they are involved.
They're in the space too.
(33:38):
I felt very aware that ifI didn't say something, I'm
actually communicating anotherthing to everybody else.
That felt dangerous to me.
Yeah.
Yeah, and what you justsaid about when you don't
communicate something, right?
That's exactly whathappened to me.
That's exactly whathappened to me.
(33:59):
And then there was aninteresting outcome to that and
I look back at that now and I'mlike, See, that's not what I
wanted to have happen becauseof the power dynamic in my class
because I'm the teacher, right?
The people that wanted totalk about this issue, the
thing that was making themupset about this film or this
(34:19):
video, they decided to, or onedecided to silence themselves
for the rest of the class.
And I'm thinking that's notthe outcome I really wanted.
I look back at this and I reallyagain, appreciate the space
because I was in a trainingonce and I heard this expression
about, there's no expirationdate when you can do a do over.
(34:41):
So even though that happened,like I can't go back to my
class now it's done, right?
But I'm learning, be open to thelearning and then think about,
okay, if this happens again in agroup setting and hopefully the
next time, I'll be more brave.
Like I can always go back tosomething that didn't land well,
(35:02):
or I didn't facilitate well.
At least acknowledge whathappened the last time, right?
So that people will go,okay, she realized it because
otherwise it creates a barrier.
People are like, Oh, I don'tknow if I can trust her.
She's not a safe personfor me because she didn't
acknowledge the obviouselephant that's there.
(35:24):
Right.
Yes, that is- and this iswhy I'm saying there's so
much similarity in highered and in organizations.
It's very much the same,and you're right, the things
the we communicate when wedon't say are pretty strong.
It's the same thing thatwe tell, okay, my mind's
going in a lot of places.
(35:44):
It's this parallel processbecause leaders and
organizations will ask staffto do something with clients
or customers that they arenot willing to do with staff.
It is the same thing thatas people teaching students
to do something with clientsreally struggle doing it
themselves with students.
It's the same.
I appreciate youeven referencing the,
(36:07):
segment I facilitatedat that CRT convening.
Because before I did it, I,do you know how nervous I was?
I was very aware that I waswalking into a space telling
people who have been doing thisfor years and decades, I was
coming into the space to say,Hey, even though you've been
doing this for a long time, youare missing this huge component.
(36:29):
I was so nervous, even thoughI believe in it, I knew
what I was walking into.
And I appreciate hearingyour own reflection from
that experience, because itat least helps me understand
it makes sense to people.
What you're sayingyour whole example is a
(36:53):
really great illustrationof the importance of
needing to develop leadershipin any role capacity to
be able to hold spaces.
If we are unable to hold thespace, then it's really hard
to engage on a deeper levelwith students and with staff.
It's really hard to do that.
(37:14):
appreciate you.
Thank you, Charmaine.
As you're speaking aboutthis and I'm thinking about,
I appreciate you sharinghow, you were nervous.
Not that I would think thatyou wouldn't be nervous, but
I think there's so much to belearned right across each other.
Like I, I've never everconsidered myself an expert
(37:36):
like on CRT, it's this processof I just things unfold.
Once I started to internalizesome of the basic tenets and
started to see these connectionsout in the world, it's an
ever, unfolding process.
And I always look forwardto hearing from people
that are along that samejourney, wherever they're
(38:00):
at, because there's alwayssomething to be learned.
I learned a great dealfrom your workshop.
I do appreciatewhat you're saying.
There's a, something elseI wanted to just circle
back to because it honestlyfelt very tangible.
I meant to do thatwas in the going back.
When we don't do things theway that we want, when we might
have missed the opportunity.
(38:22):
I love the expirationdate thing.
There isn't 1 andI see that 2 ways.
Same thing that we tellstaff with clients.
Hey, you can always circle back.
That's the thing.
You can always circle backto it's the same thing
in our leadership roles.
We didn't get it right.
We can circle back.
I actually have done that.
And I've actually done thatseveral times because I
(38:43):
reflect and I realize, okay,it wasn't the best thing.
So I will come back andsay, I've been doing some
reflection and I realized thismight not have landed well
for people, or I know thisdidn't land well for people.
And I'd like to talk aboutthat or give you an opportunity
to share or discuss whatevermakes sense, but the circling
(39:04):
back feels super tangible.
And then the second piece ofthat is in situations like yours
where, okay, the class is over.
You can't go backand do anything.
You're not going to emaileverybody and say, sorry
about that thing two years.
You're not going to do that.
So there is an elementof, to me, the circle
back is the next time.
(39:25):
Is the moving forwardwith the lesson.
Is allowing that toimpact behavior change.
I know people know this in theirminds, but there are inevitable
moments where these thingsthey surf-, they surface back.
And because of all thestuff before and the added
layer of now avoidance.
(39:46):
I have also seen that people cancrumble in those moments too.
I've seen that.
It is that point ofmoving into action.
Honestly, it's likeyou just gotta do it.
It just feels likethat sometimes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yes.
I believe that too.
(40:06):
It's like the only way youcan move through that fear
is by working through it.
By, by doing it, doing the thingthat you're afraid of doing.
Because usually when you endup doing it, the worst thing
that you thought was goingto happen did not happen.
And then, it's thatphysiological piece
(40:27):
about like exposure,response, prevention "ERP".
We teach people if theyare dealing with obsessive
compulsive disorder, youface the thing you're really
afraid of in graded steps.
But your body habituates to thatfear, that it won't be such this
great fearful situation anymore.
(40:47):
It just, it getslower and lower.
That fear does.
And then it's noteven a fear anymore.
So I always keep that inthe back of my mind when I'm
thinking about things that Iapproach that I want to avoid
Yeah.
and go, if I can just dothis in the best way I can,
showing up the best waypossible, then I bet you will
(41:10):
still help me in the end.
Absolutely.
I have another, this isprobably my last question.
I was thinking, it would bereally cool to, reflect on,
because there's a part, thevery, very small part of this
conversation that we're having,which was a window into how
(41:32):
I would work with people.
Which is the pausing thezooming in and then the
sinking into a situation.
Would it be okay if I askedyou what that felt like?
Because I can always tell peoplewhat the work is like with us.
I can always do that.
(41:52):
But I'm like, it'snot a training.
It's not me sharing information.
It's very experiential.
So would you allow meto ask this question?
Would you be open to answeringwhat that specific process of
zooming in and sinking intothe moment was like for you?
And if you felt like maybe thelearning was a bit different.
Sure.
Yeah.
(42:14):
It wasn't that scary to do that.
You know why?
Because it was you.
Ah.
It was you.
Like, you are so thoughtful,and you are so reflective,
and you hear people well.
At least my experience ofyou is that you have this
ability to take in what peopleare saying, and you quickly
(42:36):
make these connections.
And then you're able toreflect it back to someone
in a way that- you reallydo facilitate that so well.
So you inviting me, it justfeels like I don't even have
any hesitation to do that.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And it, for me, it wasactually very cathartic.
(42:56):
Because it's somethingthat was on my mind.
You know what I mean?
And it never reallyresolved itself.
And I haven't really had achance to really talk it out
to someone who really wasinterested in knowing about deep
diving into something thatis painful to reflect on.
So you've set it up sonicely that it didn't
(43:20):
feel at all that hard.
And if anything, it just helpedme feel really glad that I did.
And that it's importantwork to do, and that we
can't also do it ourselves.
So like I've been keepinga journal- Which, by the
way, I'm not a big journalwriter because it just takes
more time out of my day.
(43:40):
But I have been doing just alittle excerpt here and there
about how I'm feeling as I'mmaking these transitions,
because I don't want thesenegative distortions to always,
be the loudest voice in my head.
I have to write down momentsof, victory, moments of
challenging those negativethoughts, and that helps.
(44:03):
And no, it felt really good.
And I think the point I wantedto make was that to have a
partner to do that with, orto have a trusted friend or
colleague to do that with, Ithink is a very good practice.
I actually, I think I liedbecause one of the things that
you and I talked about whenwe were setting this up, that
I do feel like I would regretnot bringing up, was how your
(44:28):
experience is driven by whoyou are as an Asian American
woman, what did you say?
You said Asian American,and I don't, want to speak
to what that was for you.
I think the question would be,what about that part of your
identity has influenced thesedifferent experiences that
(44:50):
we're actually talking about?
Especially the ones where,because I remember you
were tying it to how yousaid, it impacts how you
advocate for yourself oreven for other people.
It impacts what youmight say and not say.
Yeah,
So do you want toshare anything on that?
sure.
Thank you for bringingup that question again.
(45:11):
So much of my decisions inlife, in work, and in play,
is very much related to mybeing Asian American, being
Chinese American, being thirdgeneration and sixth generation,
and also being female.
Those two things, gender andethnicity, race, for me is
(45:32):
really noticeable and impactful.
And I remember, on one hand,when I'm thinking about today's
conversation, I think a lotabout the model minority
myth and being raised in thatand what it's done for me to
amp up this sort of feelinglike you have to be perfect.
(45:52):
You have to never fail.
You have to be exceptionalat what you do, and you
have to be, you have to workreally hard, over time, that
all just plays into that.
And then the piece aboutadvocacy is, for me, and I know
it's different for differentAsian Americans for sure,
(46:12):
but, it's working throughwhat I call the backdoor.
That I think the avenue for mewhere I feel most comfortable
about change is really workingthat back door, working through
relationships and, being moresubtle about how to influence
or advocate for someone.
(46:33):
Now, it doesn't mean I don'tknow how to speak directly when
I'm like advocating for I havean easier time, for instance,
advocating for a client.
You know what I mean?
Directly for someonethan say myself.
That I think goes to thewanting to do the job right
kind of thing, but, certainlythat plays a part in it.
And just, I think if, especiallyif you are working with
(46:55):
Asian Americans in a worksetting, it is really easy.
And now I'm just reflectingabout my experiences,
the Asian Americanwoman in group settings.
It is very easy for us tofeel or for me to feel like
a noticed and forgotten.
And unless someone reachesout and says, Hey, Sharon,
what do you think about that?
(47:16):
I may not say anything atall, like in a group setting,
unless it's something I'mreally passionate about.
Or if it really ignitessomething, or someone
says something that Ithink is really an error,
then I'll say something.
But, I've been in situationsCharmaine where- and I started
taking note of this more in thelast five years, where I'll,
(47:36):
people just don't even think I'mthere, as if I was invisible.
So I'm much morecognizant of that.
And I think it's so importantto help people that feel
invisible, and that have beenmarginalized in that way, to
make sure to make room for them.
Make space for them, makesure to check in on them,
when they're in groupsettings or in meetings.
(47:57):
Or do the backdoor method afterthe meeting, check in with
them to find out what theythought about that meeting.
Because I remember in gradschool people saying, you all,
meaning the Asian Americans thatwere in a group together, you're
all so quiet in class, but thenyou get out of class and you're
like, jabbering away, right?
(48:18):
And you never knowwhat to say to that.
It's like what we do, we havea lot of thoughts and feelings
about what's being said, butbecause of model minority
myth, because of also howwe're socialized to behave
maybe in particular ways- don'tstand out, don't make waves.
That's, I'm thinkinglike Chinese culture.
My mom was very much about that,don't stand out, and like she
(48:40):
would never ask for a raise.
She wouldn't.
And then she was always thankfulwhen someone else in the office
asked for the raise, and theywere doing the same job, and
then she would benefit from it.
You
keep your head down, you do yourwork, don't say anything, you
don't create problems, you do,you be the best you can be, you
work overtime if you need to.
That's just what it meansto, be a good worker,
(49:02):
good professional.
Yeah.
Oh my.
Oh, you're, oh, you'resaying so much stuff.
I, there's two things thatyou've actually mentioned
in this time with us todaythat I am thinking these
need to be separate episodes.
One was the, thenegative narrative.
I think there are verycommon negative narratives in
(49:23):
people in leadership roles.
And then this other one thatyou're really lifting up is,
and you're honest, you'remaking me think about me.
And I know that I'mnot the only one.
When we have theseexperiences from our
cultures, identities that arehistorically marginalized,
historically oppressed.
(49:45):
And then there, there isthe intersection of having
positions of privilege thatrequire us to wrestle with that.
If we're doing the work, itrequires us to wrestle with it.
It requires us towrestle with it.
And I have to do, I cannot tellyou, I, the more I do this work,
the more I have to acknowledgemy internalized oppression
(50:08):
and what it looks like becauseof my identities, cultures.
I, it is all the time.
When you were saying whatyou were saying, I'm like,
Oh my gosh, this makes sense.
And then I was thinkingabout some of the stuff
that you were sharing withyour experiences just today.
And what that looks like,maybe not saying something that
(50:30):
extra layer of who you are, andthere's that point where we have
these experiences and then wehave these privileged positions.
So what does that mean?
And what does it look like?
That's a whole other episode,but I would really love
to have that with you andmaybe a couple other people.
But you've got my mindgoing and you're saying so
(50:51):
much really great impactfulinformation and all of those
need to be unpacked themselves.
Thank you.
Thank you, Charmaine,for this opportunity.
Yes.
Yes.
I don't know about you.
this felt like an episode,but it also felt like, we were
just really going wherever.
There were momentsof my own reflection.
(51:12):
You gave me somethings to think about.
One of the things to thinkabout is I really would
love to be the person thatjournals all the nice things.
I don't journal the nice things.
I journal the, I can'tstand today things.
That's what I do.
You put this on my plate of,you could benefit from some
(51:33):
good gratefulness stuff.
Thank you for that, actually.
Thank you.
Anything else we want tosay before we wrap up?
I, there's so much.
That I just love the richnessof these conversations and,
I appreciate just, again,your ability to track what
I'm saying and be able tobring these points back.
(51:55):
And say, Hey, let's talkabout this a little bit,
because my mind is going inso many different directions.
And I just think you'reso skilled at this.
And I think you're inthe perfect place to be
doing this kind of work.
So I just want to affirm you forall that you're doing, because
this is really meaningfuland impactful and important.
(52:15):
I feel seen, I think youhave a gift in, really
helping people to feelseen in their uniqueness as
well as in whatever spacethey're in or whatever place
they're in at that time.
I certainly didn't planto, be as vulnerable.
But I think I really, Ijust, you made it really
(52:37):
comfortable and you validatedthe importance of the work.
And so I justcouldn't resist you.
You just, you'recompletely irresistible.
Oh, my goodness.
Thank you.
That.
That means a lot.
It really does.
And it's validatingand confirming.
Especially as someone whohas chosen a different path,
(53:01):
and this is another longstory that I won't even
tell maybe another day.
But I just really wantedto do this work and I
was really trying to fitinto what it looks like.
And
I was denied heavilytrying to fit into what
this work looks like.
Then I decided, I careenough to try it differently
(53:22):
and now I'm just doingmy thing in this area.
I, what you're sayingis very important to me.
I really appreciateyour kind words.
I need to hear them.
I need to receive them.
And I thank you for, I knowyou said, I can't resist you.
To be honest though, noteverybody is able to come
(53:44):
into a space like this.
We're recording and toallow it to be what it is.
I really thank you for thatwhen we were in the moment.
So well we're here.
We're here.
We are here.
This is what it looks like.
Yeah, I wasn't anticipatingwhat today was and I love that.
So thank you.
(54:05):
All right.
today was a really cool day.
I, I really hope that peoplelistening got a chance to see
like what it really looks liketo have an open dialogue and
go in the directions that itneeds to go and what it can
also look like to capturereally significant moments
for people that we are withto pay more attention to
(54:26):
them and to hold them and tozoom in and to be curious and
learn how to ask questions.
And be honest about thethings that maybe we didn't
do so well and reflectthe process of reflection.
Just- How important that isand how much that can impact
what we're able to learnabout ourselves and how we
can change our behaviors andmake the change to systems
(54:49):
that we really want to make.
So again, I thank you, Sharon,for being here with me.
If people want to get incontact with you, what is
the best way to do that?
I would say, my email address,I'm on LinkedIn and, under
Sharon Chun Wetterau and thenmy email address at Dominguez,
it's swetterau, s w e t t er a u at c s u d h dot edu.
(55:14):
That's another wayto find me too.
Perfect.
I will also include thatin the description if
people want to see it.
And, you can visitme on my website at
livingunapologetically.
com to connect with me.
The, my social mediahandles are there.
You can always send an email.
There are free toolsavailable to you to help
you deepen your practice.
(55:35):
Help you deepen your abilityto be in relationships
with each other.
So come back if you alsowant to see more episodes.
On my website, you willhave access to my book,
Bias Conscious Leadership,a Framework for Leading with
Action and Accountability.
That's it for now.
So thanks for listening.
Yeah.
I hope to connectsoon until next time.
(55:55):
Bye.
Bye.
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