Does this sound familiar? You've been told to avoid discussing power, privilege, and oppression in the workplace, believing it will disrupt harmony and productivity. But by keeping silent, you're feeling the pain of unaddressed dynamics and the perpetuation of inequality. It's time to challenge the ineffective approach and embrace open dialogue to uncover the subtle practices that hinder progress. Join us as we navigate through uncomfortable conversations, cultivate safe spaces, and gain the skills to break down power dynamics in the workplace.
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Uncover the subtle practices of power dynamics and oppression in professional environments.
- Learn the art of cultivating safe spaces for dialogues about race and identity.
- Gain insights into the intricacies of discussing power, privilege, and oppression.
- Acquire skills for steering through uncomfortable conversations on power and privilege.
- Understand the pivotal role of leadership in encouraging open discourse and maintaining safe spaces.
Meet Kendrick Dial
Kendrick is a multi-talented individual with a passion for combining mental health, social justice, and the arts to create meaningful change. Kendrick, an alumnus of University of Southern California and a BA holder in Africana Studies in Psychology and an MSW holder, brings a wealth of experience, which also includes his time served in the US Navy as a radar technician and a substance abuse counselor. He also works as a Practice Coach at the Academy for Professional Excellence. Kendrick isn't just any professional, he's a creative coach for his business, Creative Engagement and a frontman, songwriter, and producer for the award-winning band The Lyrical Groove - showcasing his diverse talent.
One of My FAV Moments: The Need for Conversations on Power, Privilege, and Oppression Creating open dialogue allows for a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding power, privilege, and oppression. These conversations aid in highlighting societal inequalities and the importance of creating an inclusive environment. The key to fostering these conversations is to encourage inquiry, acknowledgment of individual experiences, and facing the discomfort these convos likely bring. Exploring these dynamics can foster change and help create more inclusive environments.
In our discussion, we highlight the significance of these discussions in professional settings. We note that organizations must face the discomfort caused by these conversations and engage in them regardless. Both of us share the belief that these discussions can help people recognize the impact of power dynamics on decision-making and organizational culture. More importantly, it is encouraged that we all regularly practice leaning into discomfort, asking questions, and confronting personal biases as potential pathways for meaningful change.
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
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To get in touch with Kendrick, you can contact him here:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Cuz everybody's white peopledon't want to go black
(00:02):
people don't like, theasian don't want, nobody
wants to be in that space.
And I think the thing that,you know, as professionals we
miss out on in terms of tryingto navigate this is giving
people an opportunity to connect
we are in another episode ofThe Living Out Loud Discussion
Series, and today we aretalking about the o-so common
(00:23):
avoidance, openly talking aboutpower, privilege, and oppression
in professional settings.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI expert.
If you're new, here we aretalking about unpacking real
life scenarios and issues thatcome up in our work together,
in professional settings orin settings where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
(00:43):
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in ourinteractions so that we can
learn from them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, and opinions shared
in this discussion...
they are my own and not asa representative of any of
the agencies by which I'memployed or contracted by.
(01:18):
Today I am joined bymy good friend and
colleague, Kendrick Dial.
Now Kendrick is a creativecoach and trainer who
combines mental health,social justice, and the arts.
Holding a BA in AfricanaStudies and Psychology, MSW
from USC, and with a backgroundin the US Navy as a radar
technician and a substanceabuse counselor, Kendrick-
(01:40):
his experience really lendsitself well to the dynamics and
the complex topics of power,privilege, and oppression
in professional settings.
Today, he contributes toAcademy for Professional
Excellence as a practice coach.
He is also a strengthsconsultant and operates
his own business calledCreative Engagement.
He helps organizationscreate inclusive, anti-racist
(02:04):
and engaging cultures.
As an artist, he's a frontman songwriter, producer
for the award-winningband, the Lyrical Groove.
And Kendrick is also a spokenword artist, a voiceover
actor, and a film composer.
I am telling you his artisticperspective, It brings a fresh
approach to these types ofchallenging conversations.
I have known Kendrick.
(02:25):
I've only known you forprobably a couple years, but
So still, yeah.
Yeah.
It really does.
So you and I have worked inseveral different spaces.
We've done trainings together,we've coached stuff together,
we've built curriculumtogether, it's been really
cool to do that with you.
I have experienced you to bevery gifted at being in the
(02:46):
most uncomfortable spaces.
You are just very natural.
And you have this ability tojust call people into something
and have them look at themselvesvery directly at the same time.
But you do it with kindnessand it's definitely an
art in how you do that.
And.
We, we can talk about that too.
(03:06):
I think the process,how that's developed.
Ooh, that would be good.
That would be good- butI learned from you a
lot and I'm super happyto have you here today.
Today's topic is openly talkingabout power, privilege, and
oppression in these differenttypes of professional settings.
When do these conversationstypically happen in the
(03:27):
professional settings?
That's, so it is interestingthat you even frame it like that
because the conversation versusfor the situation that happens,
that is the precipice to makethe need for the conversation.
are two different things.
Because often there's a presenceand a need for the conversation
(03:47):
before there becomes a spaceavailable to, to have the
conversation, which makes itanother, which is another reason
why it becomes challengingto have the conversation
because oftentimes they'renot, even, organizations are
not even making the spaceto have the conversation.
Now when we dig into that,I think it's a lot of
different reasons that gointo it from a personal and
(04:09):
an organizational standpoint.
I think when we're lookingat how organizations have
historically moved- Wetalk about, the dynamic of
institutions and if we recognizein that institutions have
been built off white supremacycharacteristics and dynamics
overall, which is infused withracism and all the "isms",
in terms of how they governand how we make policies and
(04:32):
all these different things,that doesn't give space or
opportunity to bring up to,because it's, it is basically
like telling the people incharge you, you're wrong.
And if you're making the systemis rare that you want people
come back telling you're wrong.
So why would you give spaceto have somebody say that?
(04:52):
And so within this space, Ithink the dynamic is shifting
because the social consciousnessof society is shifting to a
degree to where now you canlook at things and everybody
doesn't automatically feedinto that basket, if you will.
So I think it's a lot ofthings that are impacting
how we're showing up nowadaysand the capacity to do that.
(05:14):
I think the work thatI've appreciated doing
with you is helpingindividuals, organizations
develop the capacity tohave the conversation.
What does it mean to set thestage to have the conversation?
What does it mean to identifythe needs and why we need
to have the conversation.
We'll start right there.
So that's just off the...
we'll start right there.
(05:36):
I was like, dang Kendrick,you just came in hot.
I was trying to hold allthe things you just said.
There were, to me,there were two parts.
One was much more complex.
The first part washaving the need first.
there's a need.
There are, there's the partwhere there's a need to
have these conversations andthen there's the capacity
preparedness to even have them.
(05:58):
And so I wasn't stuck there,but I was holding onto that
first part around the need islikely always there because
there are so many differentpeople working in organizations
with different experiences,but without the space and
safety and normalizationof the conversations.
(06:19):
I, there is thatdisconnect before a second.
If we could go back to thatfirst part around the need the,
I don't remember how you phrasedit, but that is how I was
receiving what you were saying.
The need versus the capacityand I don't know if everyone
understands why there's a needto even be talking about this
(06:40):
stuff because I feel like Iwas thinking about this the
other day I feel like there'sa desire to not talk about the
things because people want tobe on the same playing field.
We want to share power.
We wanna say, yes, we haveprivilege, but we're working
all together without reallysitting in the, the parts of
(07:01):
us, the identities that we holdthat do have and hold power
and privilege over others oreven our own experiences of
oppression to really sit ininto that is not like as common.
I'm, I was havinga you moment right
now cause I'm listeningcause I'm listening
to what you're saying.
I'm like, ah, I want to ah,
(07:21):
I should get a penand write this down.
that's what I'm saying.
I'm like, I'm gonna havemy phone right here.
I'm gonna be taking notes.
Cause it's
I really need to do that.
so what comes up for me asyou're saying that I know,
one thought that I had waslike the fact that we are all
starting from very differentplaces and we call this out.
I think in the trainings thatwe do that, one of the things
that makes it so difficultis that everybody is starting
out from a different placein terms of either education
(07:44):
or education and, personaland social awareness.
it's amazing in terms of thatwe talk about these dynamics
and I think people missout on recognizing how much
of an emotional thing thisis because there's tons of
information out there, right?
There's tons of bookswe could be reading.
There's tons, but, people'sfeelings about it, prevent them
(08:07):
from even doing the exploration.
Like I, I talk and I'll bevery candid and like I, I know
when I'm talking to a whiteperson who's done the work,
because I can tell how they'reinternalizing the conversation.
White people who haven'tnecessarily done too much
research and done thepersonal work to navigate
these conversations, tend totake things very personal.
(08:27):
And so when you're bringingup these things, that's how
they receive 'em instead of aconversation to talk about and
recognizing where they do ordon't, play into those dynamics
or having that recognition.
So I think that's one of thethings because then when we
also talk about capacity, wealso talking about skillset.
You can't develop the skillsetif you never are in the moments
to develop the skillset.
(08:48):
So that makes it anotherchallenging space to navigate.
which makes it even themore important because
if you do study, if youdo, you see the impact.
Of these, power and privilegeand oppression in terms of
how it impacts decisionsthat are made, policies,
how people are gettingpromoted, how organizational
(09:09):
culture is developed.
We see how that is impactingand it's detrimental
to people's livelihood.
I'm gonna stop rightthere cause That's
This needs to be a several part
right,
I'm already we should juststop here and just blah.
Cause there's so many differentdirections that we can go
right.
being said.
(09:30):
Maybe it's our responsibilityto make sure that
It's clear.
loops on things thatmight need to be closed.
But that's fine.
We can just go withwhere we're going.
But I really do appreciate,and I feel like you do this a
lot, you bring up the people'scapacity and skillset, the
work that they've done.
and I appreciate your, candor.
I don't mind saying specificallywho we're talking about.
(09:51):
if it's white people,it's white people.
If it's a different group,it's a different group.
I think that's part of
Normalizing just saying it,it's, to me, people also avoid
saying white people in additionto other terms, which is really
interesting because there areorganizations, there are people
that are committed to making achange it could be many types
(10:13):
of change overall so that weare more socially conscious,
and people want to do that.
But like you said, when itcomes to really entering into
the space and feeling whatit feels like to even say
words and name stuff and sitin it with other people, it's
(10:35):
It's hard to even do that.
So if people are strugglingwith even saying and
acknowledging the terms, it'shard to do anything with it.
And it, I have found itfascinating that a lot of
the work that I do to evenhelp people get to the point
where they can really workon their relationships is not
necessarily having traditionaltrainings but may, but having
(10:56):
experiential experienceswhere it's we're saying it,
I'm saying it, you can sayit, let's say it out loud.
that's really the practiceand it's just, can you say it?
What does it mean?
Can you say thisin your own words?
Talk with your partner about it.
Let's come back.
Can you explain it to, and itmakes people so uncomfortable.
And I'm fine if this iswhere you're at in the work,
(11:17):
but this is a piece of itand then you're gonna have
to take this and use it.
In real life scenarios
with people that you areconnected to or collaborating
with and problem solving within, in whatever the case may be.
There's] just something aboutsaying the words in general that
really jars people and Go ahead.
(11:41):
to that point, because when wetalk about how folks don't know
how it's gonna be received, likeeven being in different spaces
and it's like, do I say black?
Do I say African American?
Like which one isthe appropriate?
And I always tell folks, justask, cause you got some people
that'll be very staunch.
I'm black on the other side.
Hey, I'm African American.
(12:02):
Or you got some people justokay, either one that's
y'all, that's for the otherpeople title anyway, we
didn't name ourselves that.
So it, it really depends onthe person and awareness.
And the only way to trulynavigate these conversations at
times is to really just lean in.
And at the same time, I canrecognize those moments when,
for lack of a better term,folks come with a seemingly
(12:23):
dumb question, right?
But it's, it is, it's thetrue essence of ignorance
because you're not knowing,not done any research to find
out or anything like that.
And so it is, it's truly justignorant, but it's almost
like you think about whereit comes from in terms of
the lack of humanity thathas gone from a general space
(12:45):
in terms of how somebodyelse might be receiving it.
Like, all of that becomes a partof this, which makes it such
a convoluted experience whenfolks are trying to navigate it
and makes it more challenging.
But, my phrase as of lateis sometimes you gotta go
through it to get to it.
And that's justthe reality of it.
Like we, you can't be stuckon trying to get the right
results as opposed to goingthrough the experience of
(13:08):
feeling your way through tosee what it is like sometimes
that's gonna be the only waythat you really understand
how to sit in this space.
And even in that sit in aspace, it might mean if you
come from white culture ordominant culture, putting
yourself in places whereyou're not the dominant person.
That's a part of understandinghow, you know how other people
(13:29):
are experiencing things.
You might not need to walk inthose exact shoes, but what are,
what is walking into the feelingof those shoes look like?
What does that space look like?
Yeah.
Yeah, you, it's justgonna be hard cuz you keep
saying a bunch of things.
I don't have anythingto write with.
Look, I got my Apple pencil,but I'm also using my iPad to
(13:50):
do something else, so I don'thave nothing to write on.
But the last thing you saiddid make me think about I-
when we're talking about who'suncomfortable talking about
these words, and it's notnecessarily just white people.
right,
It's really not.
And I think that, I think weover associate, it's just like
(14:11):
white people have a problemtalking about this stuff.
They 100% do, and I have seenthat other people do as well.
I don't think it is specificto any particular race
ethnicity, although thelevel of the feelings can
be stronger in white people.
(14:32):
I've seen that too, but Idon't, there's no blanket
statement over who says it.
Who's uncomfortable.
Why does this look on your face?
Tell me what you're thinking.
Because my question to you,can we talk about the why?
Yes.
Let's talk
Like the why people, a whiteperson is comfortable, why
a black person or a latinomight be uncomfortable?
Because I think that part of itis a very different dynamic in
(14:55):
terms of the discomfort, right?
I want to hear what youhave to say about that,
considering I feel like
yeah.
So to me, what I haveexperienced is white people
really struggle with theseconversations because they
have a lot of shame abouthistory and what it means
about them as individuals orthem as like white people.
And it just getsvery personalized.
(15:17):
So there's definitelya lot of shame there.
There's lots of fear aroundhow they will be viewed, how
relationships will change.
Is something going tohappen if it's a job.
I think it's heightened a littlebit more with cancel culture.
So people are just reallyafraid to say anything
and ruffle feathers.
(15:38):
I have seen people ofcolor, non-white people
not say something becausethey're not safe to say it.
These are not conversationsthat happen at work at all.
Those who do say havehistorically been discriminated
against, retaliated against,different forms of abuse
(15:59):
have happened to them.
I am one of thosepeople unfortunately.
And then the part that's likea little bit surprising is that
there's similar reasons that Ijust explained that white people
experience that also peopleof color experience too around
the shame and fear of whatwill happen to relationships
(16:21):
and what will happen to theirjobs or how they'll be labeled.
But there, there is adifference, but there's
some similarity in likethe emotion, but there's
definitely a difference.
So to me, that's howI would describe it.
Tell me what you got.
No, that was exactly it.
I knew you had it, that's why Ijust wanted to throw up the lob.
No, you tell mewhat the answer is.
(16:43):
And it could be, this isliterally just my experience.
So I have alsolearned that there is
Right,
not
one type of experience.
I think about my own journeya lot too, as a per, as a
white and a black person.
It's been really interestingbeing in this space because I
had to really look at myself.
(17:06):
There was so much whiteness inme, that was problematic because
it was dismissive and harmful toother people, including myself.
And so I had to get really usedto saying words that I just
never, I was just not a thing.
Like I was, we did nottalk about that stuff.
(17:27):
We weren't supposed totalk about that stuff.
So I in this reallyinteresting way, like
understand the experienceand know it in my brain.
And unfortunately I haveto pay a lot of attention
because I still operate withthat fear in me sometimes.
I really do.
And I have to ask myself is thisfrom a place of like privilege
or a place of like oppression?
(17:49):
I have to ask myselfthat all the time.
And I have an awesome coachwho does that with me.
And sometimes it's both,sometimes it really is from
this, from my white identitythat I do or do not do things.
So it's like super real.
My point is it's allnuanced and it's not,
people fitting in the buckets.
I think even at, and this,I'll just add a different,
(18:10):
slightly different perspectiveof kind of that journey that
you're talking about of theself reflect, self-reflection,
because I think everybody hasa continued to self-reflecting
and you can't be on one sideor the other necessarily.
And just feel like yougot it all figured out.
And I say that because, thesupremacy, white supremacy is
such ingrained in the racismand so ingrained into, I'll just
(18:33):
say American culture- if thereare times when, you know, even
within, we talk about colorism,like there's dynamics within
a specific, ethnic group andethnic culture that you see
these dynamics play out, whichis another thing that even
happens cuz of course once youget to more of a homogeneous
group, then the power andthe privilege really come out
right, because you, it is theclassism, the education and how
(18:55):
all those tho dynamics take on.
I, I would say part of mypersonal journey in reflection
and something that I hadto go through, get through
is coming from a, Africanastudies background, right?
Black studies.
and with the appreciation of ablack nationalist perspective,
some folks that do thiswork, they go in swinging.
Hey white man, you the devil.
(19:17):
Like you might, as they, theydon't necessarily say, but they
might as well be saying that.
And to that degree, on, onsome levels, maybe it has
a place in some places.
But I think in terms of,for me, doing this work
is really about educatingpeople and getting, people
to be able to self-reflectand see those moments to,
to be able to call 'em out.
(19:38):
And it's like how do you createthe environment to do that?
I know in our, my experiencewith you, I think the
benefit or the things thatI've noticed that makes the
work that we do very in, inimpactful and engaging is
really setting the stage.
And for us to be able to have anenvironment where we know people
are gonna mess up, somebody'sgonna say something to make
(19:59):
somebody feel some type of way,we know somebody's going to
have a reaction to what somebodysays, but to be able to look
at that, and number one, thinkabout the intent and number two,
set the space to be like, okay,we have to practice being able
to navigate these conversations.
So on one hand, I did thisin a training recently
where, this white girl, sheshared this white woman, she
(20:22):
shared a perspective and,a black woman in her group,
she had a reaction to it.
And the beautiful thing thatwas happening is that they
were actually talking about it.
And black woman was like,if you would've said
something like that, I tookit, she would've took it
a certain way, yada, yada.
And so we just, we opened upthe conversation and I had.
(20:43):
the white womansay what she said.
I asked the black woman togive me her understanding
of what she said.
And the importance of thatwas making sure that they were
actually hearing each other.
Because we hear each other withlenses and we see each other
with lenses of the experiencethat we think the other person
has as opposed to experiencethat they have had, or the
intention that they really mean.
(21:03):
So making the space so folkscan actually converse and make
sure that they're actuallyhearing what they're saying is
such a needed piece of beingable to navigate this space.
Because we have such verydifferent experiences.
And even with language, wemay say the same word, but we
mean totally different things.
Like I'm hungry.
Mean man, I'm hungry,but I'm cool for another
(21:25):
two to three hours.
Somebody else is hungry.
It's yo, if I don't get asnicker in here, somebody,
I'm going up somebody's head.
So it's really- I always tellpeople, even within con, the
conflict, if you see yourself,you talking, y'all seem to
be saying the same word.
I would say, what do youmean when you say this?
Yeah.
to really get a deeperunderstanding of where
they're coming from.
Cause oftentimes we'renot saying the same thing.
(21:47):
Yeah.
One of the things that you'retalking about that I I don't,
it could be super tangible forpeople, is the practicing to
get it well and to also be ableto navigate getting it wrong.
I think that people reallywanna do it right and say
the right words, but thegoal of practicing isn't to
(22:11):
learn all the things and doit like right every time.
The goal is tobuild the capacity
to, to get it wrong andmaintain the connection with
the person, maintain a level ofcuriosity to learn and change
behavior as it makes sense to.
(22:32):
That's the goal.
And I think that peoplespend a lot of time trying to
intake as much as possible.
So the day that they do putinto practice, it's right.
And in some waysthat is a disservice.
That is, avoidance.
You have to go into itlike you're saying, and
build the capacity to do itwell and wrong like that.
(22:56):
You've gotta learn howto do it well and wrong.
And I'm thinking about, I hadsomeone come up to me and I was
teaching something, they come upafter and they were basically-
Hey, I have, situationover here with a client.
I'm a white person and Iwork with clients, but then
I have one, and I don't wannaacknowledge, if I say Hey,
we have these differences.
(23:16):
Am I creating a problem?
And I'm like, why are youeven bringing this to me?
let me hear somemore about this.
And it's basically awhite person in a space, I
serve people of color andI wanna know if this is
going to be impacting them.
And I want them to knowthat it's a place where I
might not know everything.
And because I'm a whiteperson, and so we can talk
(23:36):
about that if it's helpful.
And have you said anyof this to this person?
It's no.
no.
And What is the reason why?
So I'm like really askinglike, what's the reason why?
And it's I don't wannacreate a problem.
what are the other reasons why?
And the person's like,well, I'm uncomfortable.
I said, okay.
Do you wanna con continueto choose your- comfort
(23:56):
over seeing if yourclient's needs can be met?
No.
I'm like, so what?
What would you like todo in this situation?
Because it really boils downto, do you wanna choose to
keep not doing or choose tosit in your own comfort or
ignore and avoid whatever itis- you wanna keep doing that
from your place of privilege orpower, depending on the person?
(24:20):
Or do you want to tryand see what happens?
Because I guarantee you,you saying or not saying
something doesn't changethe presence of it.
And you not saying somethingtells your clients something.
It tells them it's not okayto talk about it, it might
(24:41):
not be safe to talk about it.
And that there's lots ofthings that they might not be
able to get any support with.
Cuz you won't evenacknowledge it.
And then there's the added layerof putting the responsibility
on someone that you'reworking with to have to tell
what's important and stuff.
So anyways, it was fascinating.
My point of all of that wasI like to ask people those
(25:04):
questions around here'sa situation, do you wanna
keep doing that or not?
And so like you have to, tome, I have to ask that question
because you keep not so doyou wanna keep doing this or
not?
And what will you doif the answer is no?
And ultimately that personcame back around and was like,
I tried it and it went well.
(25:25):
And I'm like, damnit, great job.
Like you said somethingthat's, try it out.
Yeah.
So it is.
It is amazing.
So my route into this work,which it- hearing you say that
really brought it out for mewas through conflict resolution.
And it's, it is, and even doinglike restorative justice circles
(25:45):
and things of that nature.
Because actually some of thatwork is based in, the apartheid
dynamics and healing throughthat and healing circles.
But the fact that's theessence of what we are
talking about when we talkabout navigating the space
is really, we're talkingabout culture and identity,
whatnot, but it's reallybeing able to handle conflict.
(26:06):
And I don't think we make thatconnection enough, because when
you think about conflict, a lotof folks are conflict avoidant.
And so they will run away fromthe slightest sign of conflict,
which is what makes this sucha challenging space for folks
to be in because it also,as you pointed out, there's
the conflict within self.
(26:26):
That there, so you'remanaging that conflict and
then you're managing theconflict outside of yourself.
And so, and if you don't havethat capacity or the skillset
to navigate that, then it's justit only amplifies the space in
terms of what makes it such achallenging dynamic to address.
Yeah.
the self part is to, to me,just from my own personal
(26:47):
experience, as a person havingto do it and then working with
other people, the understandingof what is happening in you is
more important than the otherperson or group of people.
There is so much that we aredoing in ourselves that drives
(27:10):
what happens and doesn't happen.
And for me, a lot of my learningwas having to really figure
out why I was doing what Iwas doing or not, and where
it came from, I had to likereally learn and I still have
to figure out at times whatis that behavior about and
where did it even come from?
Because it helps me dodifferent situations.
(27:32):
When I had no idea aboutanything, I was just doing
all kinds of stuff andI couldn't tell you why.
I could not tell you why, butnow I get to do different,
like in a moment I get to sayalright, this part of me is
activated, but that's okay.
That's got nothing todo with those persons.
Well, I really need to stay inthis moment and figure out how
to self-regulate because they'retrying to say something here.
(27:54):
But the internal piece tome is the most significant.
And I don't mean theinternal in terms of
learning more knowledge.
The knowledge is important,but the deeper layer of how
we experience what we'relearning and how we experience
trying to use it, how weexperience avoiding it...
(28:15):
is powerful and the greatestgift you're gonna be able to
give yourself if you're tryingto make these types of changes.
So I had a question.
So what I'm, but what I'm,I want to get at what you're
talking about is basicallyhaving the capacity to really,
develop your own awarenessaround how and why you do
(28:37):
or don't respond to certainsituations as it relates to
these dynamics of, cultureand identity, et cetera.
Because I was, and you'veanswered because I was- one
of the greatest things I, as atrainer I appreciate is folks
having those aha moments.
Right?
And what I heard you say isthat's such a big piece of this.
(28:59):
But not necessarilybecause somebody else
was giving it to you.
It's like you have to sitin this space and explore
you so you can get tothose aha moments yourself.
because that's alwaysa question too.
It's how do you getto this awareness and
how do you get there?
How do you see it?
It's just like it, partof it is that the, I think
the knowledge allows forthe, outward awareness to
(29:23):
a great degree in terms ofunderstanding, these are some
of the things that you'recontinuing with in dealing
with, or these are the inisms, these are how they look.
This is how we define them.
And but, and so once youhave that knowledge, then
you can begin to maybehave the framework or the
literature, the words, right?
You can have the language.
to apply to yourself andmaybe a lens, cuz it's often
(29:45):
easier to look at the lensoutside of yourself first.
You have the lens to beable to look at yourself
and to question your actionsbecause you also recognize
there's a feeling that'sconnected to those actions.
And you have to challengeyourself and ask yourself,
why do I feel like this?
And why did I decideto take this route?
And those are personalconversations, that we have
to be willing to have withourselves that will help us
(30:08):
navigate this in the contextof working with other people.
Yes.
you are actually like, ththis whole thing that you're
describing is literally likethe types of experiences
that Living Unapologeticallycreates, because like we just
had, I can say that we justhad this training and it was
(30:30):
truly only practice based.
Like at the top it waslike, this is practice only.
We're barely talking.
If you don't wanna practice it,this ain't the place for you.
And it was like, hereare the prompts, like
practice saying the words.
And when you go into thegroups, don't talk about
what you would say if youwere in the situation.
It is the peoplein front of you.
(30:52):
It is the scenario.
And practice it.
And the follow-up promptswere like, what did you
feel before you said it?
What?
What did you feellike during it?
What happened after?
Like just literallyunpacking it.
and then there was also priorto doing that, put people in the
groups and be like, look, Howdo you feel about role playing
and what do you need to beable to feel safe here and then
put them in there to do that?
(31:13):
Because I do acknowledgethat it's practice and people
haven't done it before.
So we do what we can tocreate some level of safety,
but not all situations, inworkplaces or other professional
settings will be that way.
But at least in thesemore, I don't like the
word control- guidedexperiences that we provide.
there are ways where youcan try it on and find your
(31:35):
own, like voice or what Icall like personal protocol,
the things that you arecomfortable saying so that you
can try out these differenttypes of conversations.
But that's so important.
It's so important to do that.
right.
Yes.
So that's what I,that's what I live for.
(31:57):
Excuse me.
That- creating those momentsfor folks to experience it.
I did a training not too longago and folks were like, yeah,
I've, of course, whenever youhear anything related to DEI
and training and professionalspace, it's here we go again.
Yeah.
A lot of that, the expectationsthat folks is going to get up
there, they're going, they'regonna berate the white people
(32:18):
and then they just gonna betelling the folks stuff all day.
Cuz everybody's white peopledon't want to go black
people don't like, theasian don't want, nobody
wants to be in that space.
And I think the thing that, youknow, as professionals we miss
out on in terms of trying tonavigate this is giving people
an opportunity to connect andkind like you in this training,
(32:40):
the main thing that I didwas create an opportunity for
folks to really connect towhere that view of who they
saw somebody as got challengedbecause they actually got a
chance to hear their story.
They got a chance to actually,ask questions and reflect and
see the similarities and seethe nuances of the differences.
And I think it's, the differencepiece where some people are
(33:03):
like, yeah, we don't wannafocus on the difference.
The differences are there.
Like you, you can't act likethe differences aren't there,
and differences intrinsicallydo not bring up the conflict.
Yeah.
How you respond to it andallow somebody to own that
difference is what bringsup the conflict, right?
So having that space tonavigate is really, I think,
an important dynamic of kindof creating the experiential
(33:26):
experience that folks need todo this because you have to
be able to feel the emotions,understand the emotions, but
also connect with the newinformation that you're getting
and see how that rebalances you.
Yeah.
Yes, there is like a pieceof this that I wanna just
like bookmark for us andcome back to, cuz I think
(33:48):
it could be like its ownconversation and it's around the
skillset needed to facilitatethose types of experiences
yeah.
because DEI- land is somore about knowledge than
anything else and it takes aspecial skillset to be able
(34:12):
to do what you're describing.
right,
I know we can't do itright now, but like I
just wanna bookmark that.
Can we please unpack thatpart cuz I think there's
some like really coolthings to say about that.
The, one of the last thingsI, or the last thing I wanted
to bring up though in thisconversation was, and maybe
it's my own struggle, I don'tknow, but like I, in this
(34:34):
conversation, I do actuallypersonally struggle at times
where, like people of color viewtalking about power, privilege,
and oppression as looking atpeople of color as victims.
Like I try to, I really dotry and everyone's perspective
is their own, their livedexperiences are valid.
(34:56):
I really be tryingto hold onto that.
But this is one that liketouches on me internally
cuz I'm like, it's not that.
But I can't tell otherpeople how it's for them.
Yeah.
Yeah,
So I just wanted totalk to you about that.
I just, wherever thiscan go, I'm like, this is
just a thing for me and Ireally struggle with it.
So it is interestingthat you say that.
I was on a podcast the otherday and it was about, men and
(35:20):
relationships and I guess thisconcept of the soft life, right?
And the
dynamic,
life?
What?
yeah.
Soft life, which is basically,I gotta bring up the definition,
but it's basically being ableto live a, not necessarily
a struggle free life, but tonot feel like you, you have to
hustle as much as you have tohustle just to live baseline.
(35:41):
and And the conversationended up getting into this,
black man versus a blackwoman's experience, because
of the hardships thatdifferent folks experienced.
And to that point, I think it'sin, in this is coming from a
black man who's maneuvered theworld in a, I say a different
(36:02):
way because of the way thatI look at things, right?
To that point I'm not going togive somebody, yes, the system
is there like hands down, I getit and it continues to be there.
I get to choose why Ishow up into it, and how I
respond to it and the systemsthat I build in my life
to help me respond to it.
And there's also this spacewhere if everything it...
(36:31):
what I hear you say isthere's no agency, right?
There's no personal agencyin terms of how we choose
to navigate this space.
And I think the other pieceis I'm, I think of the people
who I'm, I look after in termsof I look up to, so be it like
a Paul Robeson, be it like aQuincy Jones and whatnot, and
these men who've navigated theseracial terrains and have still
(36:53):
been able to succeed and howthey've been able to maneuver.
And it's, don't get me wrong,it's a lot of even other stuff
that goes along with that.
But then there's also thispiece where, this, I think I
shared the framework with you,but I was looking at identity,
lived experience, criticalconsciousness, and skillset.
There, the challenge with that,the victimization piece is also
(37:16):
not taking ownership that, evenas marginalized communities,
we still have racism, westill have sexism, right?
We still have ableism.
We still have theseother dynamics that we
even do to ourselves.
So at some point isto navigate the space.
Like even like you said earlier,like no matter your identity,
(37:39):
there are moments where youhave power and privilege.
Now the spectrum of thatpower and privilege may
look a little bit different,but you still have it.
And so in that space, andthen how are you also willing
that power and privilege?
Because if that's the case,we become, that in which
we feel is victimizing us.
(38:00):
And so I think it's aspace where yes, it's real.
It's true.
And I think the other pieceof it is also recognizing
what is your power andhow do you play into it.
It's one thing if you're beingimpacted by a system and you
don't know what's going on.
Going back and we're talkingabout overt, overt racism
versus covert racism.
That's another thing.
(38:21):
If I know what the systemis then and how it shows up,
then my duty, if nothing fornobody else but me and my
family and those that I loveand support, I'm gonna figure
out a way to maneuver aroundoutside of that system so
that I can get my just due.
(38:41):
Now.
That's just me and my awarenessand where I'm at right now.
If somebody else got someother stuff, please tell
me and open that up for me.
But that's where I'm at.
Therefore, I don'tfeel the capacity.
I think this is this pieceabout me choosing to do Africana
studies as, a major becauseI knew the most important
thing that I would have toexperience in my life, whatever-
(39:03):
I was still gonna be a blackman, so I needed to be as
educated as soundly assuredof my blackness, in my
American, African heritageand how that showed up for
me because I knew it wasgonna be a part of whatever
situation that I was in.
And because I have that, Iknow where I come from, I know
from my roots is, and so Iknow the vast, the expansion
(39:26):
of how I get to show up.
So even in the samespace where, cuz we do
it to ourselves, right?
Where, I might look like I mightnot show up like even some black
folks might typically expecta black man to show up, right?
Therefore, I might not show up.
white folks expect theblack, I get to define how
I show up for me and I getto navigate that water.
(39:48):
and I empower myself to do that.
And therefore there's no one,no man, no black, no white, no
other, that gets to infringeupon I how I choose to show up.
And so therefore, I don'tget to be, I don't allow
myself to simply just bea victim of circumstance.
Because if that's thecase, I would've given
up life a long time ago.
(40:08):
Yeah.
You just made me have thisreally interesting aha moment.
It's, it doesn't matter howlong I do this, I'm gonna
always be like connecting dots.
And I hope I make sensebecause I feel like if I can
say this, it's important,
yeah.
I'm ready.
I'm ready here.
(40:29):
I'm gonna have to watchthis back cause I'm, I
really need to get this.
But, so when you weretalking, I was thinking
about the situations thatI hear this and what those
people have in common.
So the first, the secondthing I was thinking was
how these topics are taught.
(40:52):
How they are taught to talkabout, and I started thinking
about like working withyou younger people in the
field, students or peoplewho are like just fresher
in their careers, especiallyin the field of social work.
And it's taught oppressionand what happens to people
is taught from help thosepeople, they need help.
(41:14):
So much stuff happens tothose people over the, it's
definitely it's taught fromthis, cuz you think about
like education, how that'sset up, the narratives, who
teaches, so the conversationsare taught and spoken about
from this place of, oh, poorwhatever, groups of people
Right.
As I was thinking, I'mlike, I had that too.
(41:36):
I had that too.
Now.
It helped me because Ijust needed to acknowledge
whatever was going onwith me and undo stuff.
But I imagine people eithergoing to school or being in
workplaces with people whofacilitate conversations from
that place of, oh, poor people.
And I hope that makes sense cuzit could be anybody looking at
(41:58):
whoever experiences oppressionis that's really sad for you.
Let's talk about how sad that isand let's do something for you.
It doesn't come from a placeof like liberation to me.
I always get activated when Ihear I don't wanna be a victim.
Like it's not about, talkingabout this stuff is not about
sitting in victimhood at all.
Talking about it is to name andto liberate from that place.
(42:23):
To be able to make decisionsfor ourselves about what's
happening, what doesn'thappen, what it means.
Like all the stuff thatyou were saying was from
a place of liberation.
But my aha moment is howthe conversations are taught
and how they are facilitated
current day, are not froma place of we are doing
this in order to achieveliberation and to achieve
(42:45):
healthy relationships.
It's not framed in that way.
And this helps me because Ifeel very aligned with that and
I think I, I believe I teachthis way but not explicitly.
And I wanna be more explicit inthe teaching because it's not
about speaking this way so thatwe see people as victims at all.
(43:10):
Right.
But any, anyway, letme just stop there.
That was just my aha moment.
I just appreciate you forspeaking what you said
out loud cuz it just, itmade me learn something.
So the piece that I, that youactivated for me was like, the
importance and the need of theframework that I come from is
about building relationships.
(43:32):
And how do you goabout doing that?
And I think that's evensomewhat of a nuance too, right?
Because it's I need you to getthe truth and how do we hold
capacity to build a relationshipeven with that truth?
Cause it's not a, it'sa very ugly truth.
and I feel like I'm gonnastop right there, but that
was the piece that came upwas like, oh, ultimately
it's a, for me, I lean intothe building relationships
(43:53):
because that's such a neededpiece of how we navigate this.
but the question then beinglike, how do you navigate
these tumultuous terrain?
To build relationships whenthat's so much a longstanding
history and negative andeven societal dynamics
that are very present, so
Yes.
I like the part of holdingthe space for all of it.
(44:13):
there's space forall of the things.
And I also wanna be cleartoo, like I'm not even saying
the, not having to be froma place of victimhood does
not mean we don't acknowledgethe effed up stuff that we're
actually talking, like thatis acknowledged, but we're not
acknowledging it so that wecan just look at people like
(44:38):
they are less than or needsome sort of like help and
they're not part of a process.
And I love the relational piece.
Like I really love that.
I feel like we've wovethat in all throughout
this conversation.
And I also feel like thisis why it's important for us
to come back to that convoabout how to help people do
that because, I don't thinkthat's terribly common.
(45:01):
I don't.
Yeah, so this may be a slightaside from that, I was on a
panel, and, black educators.
And so I think that they,we were asking about,
how do we make space for,healthy professionals, black
professionals in education?
Because one of my strugglesas an educator, teaching at a
(45:25):
predominantly white institutionwas recognizing like, and
even I it was recognizingthat, educators can be bitter,
educators of color can behella bitter and righteously
so because they're entrenchedwithin a system that I would've
thought is a place where we'reforward- thinking we're teaching
(45:48):
the new concepts and whatnot.
And that is not thecase in terms of how
they get to navigate.
And this is speaking from,teaching in a predominantly,
in a black program and or evenlooking at Chicano programs.
And it's just wow,the struggle is real.
And it really is a microcosmof the bigger picture in
(46:09):
terms of how, marginalizedcommunities, even in these
particular spaces, have somuch to have to fight for.
And it's like you're dealingwith so much day in, day
out, and, It can be very,a very negative space.
So then how doyou navigate that?
How do stand up for yourstudents and try to stand
up for your departmentand stand up for yourself?
(46:30):
And it's such a challengingspace to have to sit in, that
the piece is in the contextof what you were talking.
It just came up for me justbecause I recognize so many
professionals in educationthat, black, latino, otherwise,
there's a real, at times there'sa real like raw energy, because
it's a constant fight to haveto show up in a particular
(46:54):
way to deal with all thethings you have to deal with.
And I know everybody isn'tas fortunate as I to be able
to just- Ain't dealing withy'all and jump to something
else and whatnot, and so Yeah.
Yes.
I actually would like to weavethat into the thing that we
bookmarked, because that,that definitely is connected.
(47:16):
And I resonated with a lotof that too, just in the
experience of holding thatspace, moving things forward,
all the other stuff going on.
Your own experiences, likehow much can you really, how
much can you really hold?
Like what's realistic?
Cuz there's the skill part andthen there's all of life in
(47:36):
what that means in your capacityto use it at any given time.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Look, let's put the pin in thatand just wrap up with, is there
anything that we wanna say onthis topic before we wrap up?
We feel like wegot all the things.
No, no.
I think, for me, I appreciatethe conversation, in
(47:57):
particularly, and I actuallydo look forward to going back
to that, the bookmark piecearound how facilitating and
navigating those waters.
But I think it's a spacewhere as we are developing the
skillset and the capacity tohave these conversations, I
think there's such a gift infront loading and experience
(48:21):
a conversation that can helpsomebody lean in and, engage in
a different way as opposed towhen we just spring stuff on it.
And so I think leaning into thatis another great way that we can
help set the stage to have theseconversations and dialogues
in professional spaces.
Even if it's like, Hey, let'sset up a meeting to specifically
(48:44):
talk about A, B and C.
And let's not run from it.
Let's not- even if it's, we'rejust taking in information for
some, it might be hard to hear.
So maybe the first step isjust, yo, let's just call
out the elephants in theroom and organizations,
that's a challenging spaceto do because, but this is
where I think organizationalleadership has to take place
because they have to be willing
(49:05):
to front load it to leadby example, and do the work
themselves to develop thatawareness, because that was
the other piece that I'vehad in these trainings.
They'll be like, yo, thisis a great training, but our
leadership needs to be here.
Yeah.
yep.
That happens all the time.
And even in spaces withleaders, I feel like
(49:25):
I still hear that too,
right.
Yeah.
the leaders.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
or the other leadersthat not here
need to really be here.
Thank you so much, Kendrick.
I also enjoyed this.
I feel like there were so manythings we did not get to, but
the things that we did get to,I personally found very helpful.
(49:48):
And even like the ahamoment, I was like, oh my
gosh, I'm having a wholesituation going on right now.
It makes sense.
I just thank you, and Ilook forward to being able
to do this on future topics
and hopefully peoplefound this super helpful.
If people wanna get in touchwith you, how can they,
I'll leave your info in thedescription, but what's the
(50:08):
best way to contact you?
So actually I'm developing it.
My website is getting workedon right now, and it is simply
just gonna be kendrickdial.com.
So I give it a little time,otherwise you can Google me.
But, if you wanna emailme kdialmsw@gmail.com,
that's another way.
But kendrickdial.comthat'll be coming up.
And, and yeah, we'llbe able to engage.
(50:30):
Okay, perfect.
yeah, so if you found thisuseful, I suggest you share
it with people close toyou, coworkers, leaders,
people in your network.
use it as a discussion tooland maybe you can use it with
teams, people, anybody whocan find a helpful, use it
and talk about it and share.
if you wanna connect withme, you can visit my website,
(50:51):
livingunapologetically.com.
There you can access mysocial media and email.
There are free tools for you todeepen your practice, including
more episodes in this series.
You also have access to buy mybook, Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Other than that, thank youso much for listening and
I hope to connect soon.
(51:11):
And until then, bye.
Cuz everybody's white peopledon't want to go black
(00:02):
people don't like, theasian don't want, nobody
wants to be in that space.
And I think the thing that,you know, as professionals we
miss out on in terms of tryingto navigate this is giving
people an opportunity to connect
we are in another episode ofThe Living Out Loud Discussion
Series, and today we aretalking about the o-so common
(00:23):
avoidance, openly talking aboutpower, privilege, and oppression
in professional settings.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI expert.
If you're new, here we aretalking about unpacking real
life scenarios and issues thatcome up in our work together,
in professional settings orin settings where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
(00:43):
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in ourinteractions so that we can
learn from them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts,views, and opinions shared
in this discussion...
they are my own and not asa representative of any of
the agencies by which I'memployed or contracted by.
(01:18):
Today I am joined bymy good friend and
colleague, Kendrick Dial.
Now Kendrick is a creativecoach and trainer who
combines mental health,social justice, and the arts.
Holding a BA in AfricanaStudies and Psychology, MSW
from USC, and with a backgroundin the US Navy as a radar
technician and a substanceabuse counselor, Kendrick-
(01:40):
his experience really lendsitself well to the dynamics and
the complex topics of power,privilege, and oppression
in professional settings.
Today, he contributes toAcademy for Professional
Excellence as a practice coach.
He is also a strengthsconsultant and operates
his own business calledCreative Engagement.
He helps organizationscreate inclusive, anti-racist
(02:04):
and engaging cultures.
As an artist, he's a frontman songwriter, producer
for the award-winningband, the Lyrical Groove.
And Kendrick is also a spokenword artist, a voiceover
actor, and a film composer.
I am telling you his artisticperspective, It brings a fresh
approach to these types ofchallenging conversations.
I have known Kendrick.
(02:25):
I've only known you forprobably a couple years, but
So still, yeah.
Yeah.
It really does.
So you and I have worked inseveral different spaces.
We've done trainings together,we've coached stuff together,
we've built curriculumtogether, it's been really
cool to do that with you.
I have experienced you to bevery gifted at being in the
(02:46):
most uncomfortable spaces.
You are just very natural.
And you have this ability tojust call people into something
and have them look at themselvesvery directly at the same time.
But you do it with kindnessand it's definitely an
art in how you do that.
And.
We, we can talk about that too.
(03:06):
I think the process,how that's developed.
Ooh, that would be good.
That would be good- butI learned from you a
lot and I'm super happyto have you here today.
Today's topic is openly talkingabout power, privilege, and
oppression in these differenttypes of professional settings.
When do these conversationstypically happen in the
(03:27):
professional settings?
That's, so it is interestingthat you even frame it like that
because the conversation versusfor the situation that happens,
that is the precipice to makethe need for the conversation.
are two different things.
Because often there's a presenceand a need for the conversation
(03:47):
before there becomes a spaceavailable to, to have the
conversation, which makes itanother, which is another reason
why it becomes challengingto have the conversation
because oftentimes they'renot, even, organizations are
not even making the spaceto have the conversation.
Now when we dig into that,I think it's a lot of
different reasons that gointo it from a personal and
(04:09):
an organizational standpoint.
I think when we're lookingat how organizations have
historically moved- Wetalk about, the dynamic of
institutions and if we recognizein that institutions have
been built off white supremacycharacteristics and dynamics
overall, which is infused withracism and all the "isms",
in terms of how they governand how we make policies and
(04:32):
all these different things,that doesn't give space or
opportunity to bring up to,because it's, it is basically
like telling the people incharge you, you're wrong.
And if you're making the systemis rare that you want people
come back telling you're wrong.
So why would you give spaceto have somebody say that?
(04:52):
And so within this space, Ithink the dynamic is shifting
because the social consciousnessof society is shifting to a
degree to where now you canlook at things and everybody
doesn't automatically feedinto that basket, if you will.
So I think it's a lot ofthings that are impacting
how we're showing up nowadaysand the capacity to do that.
(05:14):
I think the work thatI've appreciated doing
with you is helpingindividuals, organizations
develop the capacity tohave the conversation.
What does it mean to set thestage to have the conversation?
What does it mean to identifythe needs and why we need
to have the conversation.
We'll start right there.
So that's just off the...
we'll start right there.
(05:36):
I was like, dang Kendrick,you just came in hot.
I was trying to hold allthe things you just said.
There were, to me,there were two parts.
One was much more complex.
The first part washaving the need first.
there's a need.
There are, there's the partwhere there's a need to
have these conversations andthen there's the capacity
preparedness to even have them.
(05:58):
And so I wasn't stuck there,but I was holding onto that
first part around the need islikely always there because
there are so many differentpeople working in organizations
with different experiences,but without the space and
safety and normalizationof the conversations.
(06:19):
I, there is thatdisconnect before a second.
If we could go back to thatfirst part around the need the,
I don't remember how you phrasedit, but that is how I was
receiving what you were saying.
The need versus the capacityand I don't know if everyone
understands why there's a needto even be talking about this
(06:40):
stuff because I feel like Iwas thinking about this the
other day I feel like there'sa desire to not talk about the
things because people want tobe on the same playing field.
We want to share power.
We wanna say, yes, we haveprivilege, but we're working
all together without reallysitting in the, the parts of
(07:01):
us, the identities that we holdthat do have and hold power
and privilege over others oreven our own experiences of
oppression to really sit ininto that is not like as common.
I'm, I was havinga you moment right
now cause I'm listeningcause I'm listening
to what you're saying.
I'm like, ah, I want to ah,
(07:21):
I should get a penand write this down.
that's what I'm saying.
I'm like, I'm gonna havemy phone right here.
I'm gonna be taking notes.
Cause it's
I really need to do that.
so what comes up for me asyou're saying that I know,
one thought that I had waslike the fact that we are all
starting from very differentplaces and we call this out.
I think in the trainings thatwe do that, one of the things
that makes it so difficultis that everybody is starting
out from a different placein terms of either education
(07:44):
or education and, personaland social awareness.
it's amazing in terms of thatwe talk about these dynamics
and I think people missout on recognizing how much
of an emotional thing thisis because there's tons of
information out there, right?
There's tons of bookswe could be reading.
There's tons, but, people'sfeelings about it, prevent them
(08:07):
from even doing the exploration.
Like I, I talk and I'll bevery candid and like I, I know
when I'm talking to a whiteperson who's done the work,
because I can tell how they'reinternalizing the conversation.
White people who haven'tnecessarily done too much
research and done thepersonal work to navigate
these conversations, tend totake things very personal.
(08:27):
And so when you're bringingup these things, that's how
they receive 'em instead of aconversation to talk about and
recognizing where they do ordon't, play into those dynamics
or having that recognition.
So I think that's one of thethings because then when we
also talk about capacity, wealso talking about skillset.
You can't develop the skillsetif you never are in the moments
to develop the skillset.
(08:48):
So that makes it anotherchallenging space to navigate.
which makes it even themore important because
if you do study, if youdo, you see the impact.
Of these, power and privilegeand oppression in terms of
how it impacts decisionsthat are made, policies,
how people are gettingpromoted, how organizational
(09:09):
culture is developed.
We see how that is impactingand it's detrimental
to people's livelihood.
I'm gonna stop rightthere cause That's
This needs to be a several part
right,
I'm already we should juststop here and just blah.
Cause there's so many differentdirections that we can go
right.
being said.
(09:30):
Maybe it's our responsibilityto make sure that
It's clear.
loops on things thatmight need to be closed.
But that's fine.
We can just go withwhere we're going.
But I really do appreciate,and I feel like you do this a
lot, you bring up the people'scapacity and skillset, the
work that they've done.
and I appreciate your, candor.
I don't mind saying specificallywho we're talking about.
(09:51):
if it's white people,it's white people.
If it's a different group,it's a different group.
I think that's part of
Normalizing just saying it,it's, to me, people also avoid
saying white people in additionto other terms, which is really
interesting because there areorganizations, there are people
that are committed to making achange it could be many types
(10:13):
of change overall so that weare more socially conscious,
and people want to do that.
But like you said, when itcomes to really entering into
the space and feeling whatit feels like to even say
words and name stuff and sitin it with other people, it's
(10:35):
It's hard to even do that.
So if people are strugglingwith even saying and
acknowledging the terms, it'shard to do anything with it.
And it, I have found itfascinating that a lot of
the work that I do to evenhelp people get to the point
where they can really workon their relationships is not
necessarily having traditionaltrainings but may, but having
(10:56):
experiential experienceswhere it's we're saying it,
I'm saying it, you can sayit, let's say it out loud.
that's really the practiceand it's just, can you say it?
What does it mean?
Can you say thisin your own words?
Talk with your partner about it.
Let's come back.
Can you explain it to, and itmakes people so uncomfortable.
And I'm fine if this iswhere you're at in the work,
(11:17):
but this is a piece of itand then you're gonna have
to take this and use it.
In real life scenarios
with people that you areconnected to or collaborating
with and problem solving within, in whatever the case may be.
There's] just something aboutsaying the words in general that
really jars people and Go ahead.
(11:41):
to that point, because when wetalk about how folks don't know
how it's gonna be received, likeeven being in different spaces
and it's like, do I say black?
Do I say African American?
Like which one isthe appropriate?
And I always tell folks, justask, cause you got some people
that'll be very staunch.
I'm black on the other side.
Hey, I'm African American.
(12:02):
Or you got some people justokay, either one that's
y'all, that's for the otherpeople title anyway, we
didn't name ourselves that.
So it, it really depends onthe person and awareness.
And the only way to trulynavigate these conversations at
times is to really just lean in.
And at the same time, I canrecognize those moments when,
for lack of a better term,folks come with a seemingly
(12:23):
dumb question, right?
But it's, it is, it's thetrue essence of ignorance
because you're not knowing,not done any research to find
out or anything like that.
And so it is, it's truly justignorant, but it's almost
like you think about whereit comes from in terms of
the lack of humanity thathas gone from a general space
(12:45):
in terms of how somebodyelse might be receiving it.
Like, all of that becomes a partof this, which makes it such
a convoluted experience whenfolks are trying to navigate it
and makes it more challenging.
But, my phrase as of lateis sometimes you gotta go
through it to get to it.
And that's justthe reality of it.
Like we, you can't be stuckon trying to get the right
results as opposed to goingthrough the experience of
(13:08):
feeling your way through tosee what it is like sometimes
that's gonna be the only waythat you really understand
how to sit in this space.
And even in that sit in aspace, it might mean if you
come from white culture ordominant culture, putting
yourself in places whereyou're not the dominant person.
That's a part of understandinghow, you know how other people
(13:29):
are experiencing things.
You might not need to walk inthose exact shoes, but what are,
what is walking into the feelingof those shoes look like?
What does that space look like?
Yeah.
Yeah, you, it's justgonna be hard cuz you keep
saying a bunch of things.
I don't have anythingto write with.
Look, I got my Apple pencil,but I'm also using my iPad to
(13:50):
do something else, so I don'thave nothing to write on.
But the last thing you saiddid make me think about I-
when we're talking about who'suncomfortable talking about
these words, and it's notnecessarily just white people.
right,
It's really not.
And I think that, I think weover associate, it's just like
(14:11):
white people have a problemtalking about this stuff.
They 100% do, and I have seenthat other people do as well.
I don't think it is specificto any particular race
ethnicity, although thelevel of the feelings can
be stronger in white people.
(14:32):
I've seen that too, but Idon't, there's no blanket
statement over who says it.
Who's uncomfortable.
Why does this look on your face?
Tell me what you're thinking.
Because my question to you,can we talk about the why?
Yes.
Let's talk
Like the why people, a whiteperson is comfortable, why
a black person or a latinomight be uncomfortable?
Because I think that part of itis a very different dynamic in
(14:55):
terms of the discomfort, right?
I want to hear what youhave to say about that,
considering I feel like
yeah.
So to me, what I haveexperienced is white people
really struggle with theseconversations because they
have a lot of shame abouthistory and what it means
about them as individuals orthem as like white people.
And it just getsvery personalized.
(15:17):
So there's definitelya lot of shame there.
There's lots of fear aroundhow they will be viewed, how
relationships will change.
Is something going tohappen if it's a job.
I think it's heightened a littlebit more with cancel culture.
So people are just reallyafraid to say anything
and ruffle feathers.
(15:38):
I have seen people ofcolor, non-white people
not say something becausethey're not safe to say it.
These are not conversationsthat happen at work at all.
Those who do say havehistorically been discriminated
against, retaliated against,different forms of abuse
(15:59):
have happened to them.
I am one of thosepeople unfortunately.
And then the part that's likea little bit surprising is that
there's similar reasons that Ijust explained that white people
experience that also peopleof color experience too around
the shame and fear of whatwill happen to relationships
(16:21):
and what will happen to theirjobs or how they'll be labeled.
But there, there is adifference, but there's
some similarity in likethe emotion, but there's
definitely a difference.
So to me, that's howI would describe it.
Tell me what you got.
No, that was exactly it.
I knew you had it, that's why Ijust wanted to throw up the lob.
No, you tell mewhat the answer is.
(16:43):
And it could be, this isliterally just my experience.
So I have alsolearned that there is
Right,
not
one type of experience.
I think about my own journeya lot too, as a per, as a
white and a black person.
It's been really interestingbeing in this space because I
had to really look at myself.
(17:06):
There was so much whiteness inme, that was problematic because
it was dismissive and harmful toother people, including myself.
And so I had to get really usedto saying words that I just
never, I was just not a thing.
Like I was, we did nottalk about that stuff.
(17:27):
We weren't supposed totalk about that stuff.
So I in this reallyinteresting way, like
understand the experienceand know it in my brain.
And unfortunately I haveto pay a lot of attention
because I still operate withthat fear in me sometimes.
I really do.
And I have to ask myself is thisfrom a place of like privilege
or a place of like oppression?
(17:49):
I have to ask myselfthat all the time.
And I have an awesome coachwho does that with me.
And sometimes it's both,sometimes it really is from
this, from my white identitythat I do or do not do things.
So it's like super real.
My point is it's allnuanced and it's not,
people fitting in the buckets.
I think even at, and this,I'll just add a different,
(18:10):
slightly different perspectiveof kind of that journey that
you're talking about of theself reflect, self-reflection,
because I think everybody hasa continued to self-reflecting
and you can't be on one sideor the other necessarily.
And just feel like yougot it all figured out.
And I say that because, thesupremacy, white supremacy is
such ingrained in the racismand so ingrained into, I'll just
(18:33):
say American culture- if thereare times when, you know, even
within, we talk about colorism,like there's dynamics within
a specific, ethnic group andethnic culture that you see
these dynamics play out, whichis another thing that even
happens cuz of course once youget to more of a homogeneous
group, then the power andthe privilege really come out
right, because you, it is theclassism, the education and how
(18:55):
all those tho dynamics take on.
I, I would say part of mypersonal journey in reflection
and something that I hadto go through, get through
is coming from a, Africanastudies background, right?
Black studies.
and with the appreciation of ablack nationalist perspective,
some folks that do thiswork, they go in swinging.
Hey white man, you the devil.
(19:17):
Like you might, as they, theydon't necessarily say, but they
might as well be saying that.
And to that degree, on, onsome levels, maybe it has
a place in some places.
But I think in terms of,for me, doing this work
is really about educatingpeople and getting, people
to be able to self-reflectand see those moments to,
to be able to call 'em out.
(19:38):
And it's like how do you createthe environment to do that?
I know in our, my experiencewith you, I think the
benefit or the things thatI've noticed that makes the
work that we do very in, inimpactful and engaging is
really setting the stage.
And for us to be able to have anenvironment where we know people
are gonna mess up, somebody'sgonna say something to make
(19:59):
somebody feel some type of way,we know somebody's going to
have a reaction to what somebodysays, but to be able to look
at that, and number one, thinkabout the intent and number two,
set the space to be like, okay,we have to practice being able
to navigate these conversations.
So on one hand, I did thisin a training recently
where, this white girl, sheshared this white woman, she
(20:22):
shared a perspective and,a black woman in her group,
she had a reaction to it.
And the beautiful thing thatwas happening is that they
were actually talking about it.
And black woman was like,if you would've said
something like that, I tookit, she would've took it
a certain way, yada, yada.
And so we just, we opened upthe conversation and I had.
(20:43):
the white womansay what she said.
I asked the black woman togive me her understanding
of what she said.
And the importance of thatwas making sure that they were
actually hearing each other.
Because we hear each other withlenses and we see each other
with lenses of the experiencethat we think the other person
has as opposed to experiencethat they have had, or the
intention that they really mean.
(21:03):
So making the space so folkscan actually converse and make
sure that they're actuallyhearing what they're saying is
such a needed piece of beingable to navigate this space.
Because we have such verydifferent experiences.
And even with language, wemay say the same word, but we
mean totally different things.
Like I'm hungry.
Mean man, I'm hungry,but I'm cool for another
(21:25):
two to three hours.
Somebody else is hungry.
It's yo, if I don't get asnicker in here, somebody,
I'm going up somebody's head.
So it's really- I always tellpeople, even within con, the
conflict, if you see yourself,you talking, y'all seem to
be saying the same word.
I would say, what do youmean when you say this?
Yeah.
to really get a deeperunderstanding of where
they're coming from.
Cause oftentimes we'renot saying the same thing.
(21:47):
Yeah.
One of the things that you'retalking about that I I don't,
it could be super tangible forpeople, is the practicing to
get it well and to also be ableto navigate getting it wrong.
I think that people reallywanna do it right and say
the right words, but thegoal of practicing isn't to
(22:11):
learn all the things and doit like right every time.
The goal is tobuild the capacity
to, to get it wrong andmaintain the connection with
the person, maintain a level ofcuriosity to learn and change
behavior as it makes sense to.
(22:32):
That's the goal.
And I think that peoplespend a lot of time trying to
intake as much as possible.
So the day that they do putinto practice, it's right.
And in some waysthat is a disservice.
That is, avoidance.
You have to go into itlike you're saying, and
build the capacity to do itwell and wrong like that.
(22:56):
You've gotta learn howto do it well and wrong.
And I'm thinking about, I hadsomeone come up to me and I was
teaching something, they come upafter and they were basically-
Hey, I have, situationover here with a client.
I'm a white person and Iwork with clients, but then
I have one, and I don't wannaacknowledge, if I say Hey,
we have these differences.
(23:16):
Am I creating a problem?
And I'm like, why are youeven bringing this to me?
let me hear somemore about this.
And it's basically awhite person in a space, I
serve people of color andI wanna know if this is
going to be impacting them.
And I want them to knowthat it's a place where I
might not know everything.
And because I'm a whiteperson, and so we can talk
(23:36):
about that if it's helpful.
And have you said anyof this to this person?
It's no.
no.
And What is the reason why?
So I'm like really askinglike, what's the reason why?
And it's I don't wannacreate a problem.
what are the other reasons why?
And the person's like,well, I'm uncomfortable.
I said, okay.
Do you wanna con continueto choose your- comfort
(23:56):
over seeing if yourclient's needs can be met?
No.
I'm like, so what?
What would you like todo in this situation?
Because it really boils downto, do you wanna choose to
keep not doing or choose tosit in your own comfort or
ignore and avoid whatever itis- you wanna keep doing that
from your place of privilege orpower, depending on the person?
(24:20):
Or do you want to tryand see what happens?
Because I guarantee you,you saying or not saying
something doesn't changethe presence of it.
And you not saying somethingtells your clients something.
It tells them it's not okayto talk about it, it might
(24:41):
not be safe to talk about it.
And that there's lots ofthings that they might not be
able to get any support with.
Cuz you won't evenacknowledge it.
And then there's the added layerof putting the responsibility
on someone that you'reworking with to have to tell
what's important and stuff.
So anyways, it was fascinating.
My point of all of that wasI like to ask people those
(25:04):
questions around here'sa situation, do you wanna
keep doing that or not?
And so like you have to, tome, I have to ask that question
because you keep not so doyou wanna keep doing this or
not?
And what will you doif the answer is no?
And ultimately that personcame back around and was like,
I tried it and it went well.
(25:25):
And I'm like, damnit, great job.
Like you said somethingthat's, try it out.
Yeah.
So it is.
It is amazing.
So my route into this work,which it- hearing you say that
really brought it out for mewas through conflict resolution.
And it's, it is, and even doinglike restorative justice circles
(25:45):
and things of that nature.
Because actually some of thatwork is based in, the apartheid
dynamics and healing throughthat and healing circles.
But the fact that's theessence of what we are
talking about when we talkabout navigating the space
is really, we're talkingabout culture and identity,
whatnot, but it's reallybeing able to handle conflict.
(26:06):
And I don't think we make thatconnection enough, because when
you think about conflict, a lotof folks are conflict avoidant.
And so they will run away fromthe slightest sign of conflict,
which is what makes this sucha challenging space for folks
to be in because it also,as you pointed out, there's
the conflict within self.
(26:26):
That there, so you'remanaging that conflict and
then you're managing theconflict outside of yourself.
And so, and if you don't havethat capacity or the skillset
to navigate that, then it's justit only amplifies the space in
terms of what makes it such achallenging dynamic to address.
Yeah.
the self part is to, to me,just from my own personal
(26:47):
experience, as a person havingto do it and then working with
other people, the understandingof what is happening in you is
more important than the otherperson or group of people.
There is so much that we aredoing in ourselves that drives
(27:10):
what happens and doesn't happen.
And for me, a lot of my learningwas having to really figure
out why I was doing what Iwas doing or not, and where
it came from, I had to likereally learn and I still have
to figure out at times whatis that behavior about and
where did it even come from?
Because it helps me dodifferent situations.
(27:32):
When I had no idea aboutanything, I was just doing
all kinds of stuff andI couldn't tell you why.
I could not tell you why, butnow I get to do different,
like in a moment I get to sayalright, this part of me is
activated, but that's okay.
That's got nothing todo with those persons.
Well, I really need to stay inthis moment and figure out how
to self-regulate because they'retrying to say something here.
(27:54):
But the internal piece tome is the most significant.
And I don't mean theinternal in terms of
learning more knowledge.
The knowledge is important,but the deeper layer of how
we experience what we'relearning and how we experience
trying to use it, how weexperience avoiding it...
(28:15):
is powerful and the greatestgift you're gonna be able to
give yourself if you're tryingto make these types of changes.
So I had a question.
So what I'm, but what I'm,I want to get at what you're
talking about is basicallyhaving the capacity to really,
develop your own awarenessaround how and why you do
(28:37):
or don't respond to certainsituations as it relates to
these dynamics of, cultureand identity, et cetera.
Because I was, and you'veanswered because I was- one
of the greatest things I, as atrainer I appreciate is folks
having those aha moments.
Right?
And what I heard you say isthat's such a big piece of this.
(28:59):
But not necessarilybecause somebody else
was giving it to you.
It's like you have to sitin this space and explore
you so you can get tothose aha moments yourself.
because that's alwaysa question too.
It's how do you getto this awareness and
how do you get there?
How do you see it?
It's just like it, partof it is that the, I think
the knowledge allows forthe, outward awareness to
(29:23):
a great degree in terms ofunderstanding, these are some
of the things that you'recontinuing with in dealing
with, or these are the inisms, these are how they look.
This is how we define them.
And but, and so once youhave that knowledge, then
you can begin to maybehave the framework or the
literature, the words, right?
You can have the language.
to apply to yourself andmaybe a lens, cuz it's often
(29:45):
easier to look at the lensoutside of yourself first.
You have the lens to beable to look at yourself
and to question your actionsbecause you also recognize
there's a feeling that'sconnected to those actions.
And you have to challengeyourself and ask yourself,
why do I feel like this?
And why did I decideto take this route?
And those are personalconversations, that we have
to be willing to have withourselves that will help us
(30:08):
navigate this in the contextof working with other people.
Yes.
you are actually like, ththis whole thing that you're
describing is literally likethe types of experiences
that Living Unapologeticallycreates, because like we just
had, I can say that we justhad this training and it was
(30:30):
truly only practice based.
Like at the top it waslike, this is practice only.
We're barely talking.
If you don't wanna practice it,this ain't the place for you.
And it was like, hereare the prompts, like
practice saying the words.
And when you go into thegroups, don't talk about
what you would say if youwere in the situation.
It is the peoplein front of you.
(30:52):
It is the scenario.
And practice it.
And the follow-up promptswere like, what did you
feel before you said it?
What?
What did you feellike during it?
What happened after?
Like just literallyunpacking it.
and then there was also priorto doing that, put people in the
groups and be like, look, Howdo you feel about role playing
and what do you need to beable to feel safe here and then
put them in there to do that?
(31:13):
Because I do acknowledgethat it's practice and people
haven't done it before.
So we do what we can tocreate some level of safety,
but not all situations, inworkplaces or other professional
settings will be that way.
But at least in thesemore, I don't like the
word control- guidedexperiences that we provide.
there are ways where youcan try it on and find your
(31:35):
own, like voice or what Icall like personal protocol,
the things that you arecomfortable saying so that you
can try out these differenttypes of conversations.
But that's so important.
It's so important to do that.
right.
Yes.
So that's what I,that's what I live for.
(31:57):
Excuse me.
That- creating those momentsfor folks to experience it.
I did a training not too longago and folks were like, yeah,
I've, of course, whenever youhear anything related to DEI
and training and professionalspace, it's here we go again.
Yeah.
A lot of that, the expectationsthat folks is going to get up
there, they're going, they'regonna berate the white people
(32:18):
and then they just gonna betelling the folks stuff all day.
Cuz everybody's white peopledon't want to go black
people don't like, theasian don't want, nobody
wants to be in that space.
And I think the thing that, youknow, as professionals we miss
out on in terms of trying tonavigate this is giving people
an opportunity to connect andkind like you in this training,
(32:40):
the main thing that I didwas create an opportunity for
folks to really connect towhere that view of who they
saw somebody as got challengedbecause they actually got a
chance to hear their story.
They got a chance to actually,ask questions and reflect and
see the similarities and seethe nuances of the differences.
And I think it's, the differencepiece where some people are
(33:03):
like, yeah, we don't wannafocus on the difference.
The differences are there.
Like you, you can't act likethe differences aren't there,
and differences intrinsicallydo not bring up the conflict.
Yeah.
How you respond to it andallow somebody to own that
difference is what bringsup the conflict, right?
So having that space tonavigate is really, I think,
an important dynamic of kindof creating the experiential
(33:26):
experience that folks need todo this because you have to
be able to feel the emotions,understand the emotions, but
also connect with the newinformation that you're getting
and see how that rebalances you.
Yeah.
Yes, there is like a pieceof this that I wanna just
like bookmark for us andcome back to, cuz I think
(33:48):
it could be like its ownconversation and it's around the
skillset needed to facilitatethose types of experiences
yeah.
because DEI- land is somore about knowledge than
anything else and it takes aspecial skillset to be able
(34:12):
to do what you're describing.
right,
I know we can't do itright now, but like I
just wanna bookmark that.
Can we please unpack thatpart cuz I think there's
some like really coolthings to say about that.
The, one of the last thingsI, or the last thing I wanted
to bring up though in thisconversation was, and maybe
it's my own struggle, I don'tknow, but like I, in this
(34:34):
conversation, I do actuallypersonally struggle at times
where, like people of color viewtalking about power, privilege,
and oppression as looking atpeople of color as victims.
Like I try to, I really dotry and everyone's perspective
is their own, their livedexperiences are valid.
(34:56):
I really be tryingto hold onto that.
But this is one that liketouches on me internally
cuz I'm like, it's not that.
But I can't tell otherpeople how it's for them.
Yeah.
Yeah,
So I just wanted totalk to you about that.
I just, wherever thiscan go, I'm like, this is
just a thing for me and Ireally struggle with it.
So it is interestingthat you say that.
I was on a podcast the otherday and it was about, men and
(35:20):
relationships and I guess thisconcept of the soft life, right?
And the
dynamic,
life?
What?
yeah.
Soft life, which is basically,I gotta bring up the definition,
but it's basically being ableto live a, not necessarily
a struggle free life, but tonot feel like you, you have to
hustle as much as you have tohustle just to live baseline.
(35:41):
and And the conversationended up getting into this,
black man versus a blackwoman's experience, because
of the hardships thatdifferent folks experienced.
And to that point, I think it'sin, in this is coming from a
black man who's maneuvered theworld in a, I say a different
(36:02):
way because of the way thatI look at things, right?
To that point I'm not going togive somebody, yes, the system
is there like hands down, I getit and it continues to be there.
I get to choose why Ishow up into it, and how I
respond to it and the systemsthat I build in my life
to help me respond to it.
And there's also this spacewhere if everything it...
(36:31):
what I hear you say isthere's no agency, right?
There's no personal agencyin terms of how we choose
to navigate this space.
And I think the other pieceis I'm, I think of the people
who I'm, I look after in termsof I look up to, so be it like
a Paul Robeson, be it like aQuincy Jones and whatnot, and
these men who've navigated theseracial terrains and have still
(36:53):
been able to succeed and howthey've been able to maneuver.
And it's, don't get me wrong,it's a lot of even other stuff
that goes along with that.
But then there's also thispiece where, this, I think I
shared the framework with you,but I was looking at identity,
lived experience, criticalconsciousness, and skillset.
There, the challenge with that,the victimization piece is also
(37:16):
not taking ownership that, evenas marginalized communities,
we still have racism, westill have sexism, right?
We still have ableism.
We still have theseother dynamics that we
even do to ourselves.
So at some point isto navigate the space.
Like even like you said earlier,like no matter your identity,
(37:39):
there are moments where youhave power and privilege.
Now the spectrum of thatpower and privilege may
look a little bit different,but you still have it.
And so in that space, andthen how are you also willing
that power and privilege?
Because if that's the case,we become, that in which
we feel is victimizing us.
(38:00):
And so I think it's aspace where yes, it's real.
It's true.
And I think the other pieceof it is also recognizing
what is your power andhow do you play into it.
It's one thing if you're beingimpacted by a system and you
don't know what's going on.
Going back and we're talkingabout overt, overt racism
versus covert racism.
That's another thing.
(38:21):
If I know what the systemis then and how it shows up,
then my duty, if nothing fornobody else but me and my
family and those that I loveand support, I'm gonna figure
out a way to maneuver aroundoutside of that system so
that I can get my just due.
(38:41):
Now.
That's just me and my awarenessand where I'm at right now.
If somebody else got someother stuff, please tell
me and open that up for me.
But that's where I'm at.
Therefore, I don'tfeel the capacity.
I think this is this pieceabout me choosing to do Africana
studies as, a major becauseI knew the most important
thing that I would have toexperience in my life, whatever-
(39:03):
I was still gonna be a blackman, so I needed to be as
educated as soundly assuredof my blackness, in my
American, African heritageand how that showed up for
me because I knew it wasgonna be a part of whatever
situation that I was in.
And because I have that, Iknow where I come from, I know
from my roots is, and so Iknow the vast, the expansion
(39:26):
of how I get to show up.
So even in the samespace where, cuz we do
it to ourselves, right?
Where, I might look like I mightnot show up like even some black
folks might typically expecta black man to show up, right?
Therefore, I might not show up.
white folks expect theblack, I get to define how
I show up for me and I getto navigate that water.
(39:48):
and I empower myself to do that.
And therefore there's no one,no man, no black, no white, no
other, that gets to infringeupon I how I choose to show up.
And so therefore, I don'tget to be, I don't allow
myself to simply just bea victim of circumstance.
Because if that's thecase, I would've given
up life a long time ago.
(40:08):
Yeah.
You just made me have thisreally interesting aha moment.
It's, it doesn't matter howlong I do this, I'm gonna
always be like connecting dots.
And I hope I make sensebecause I feel like if I can
say this, it's important,
yeah.
I'm ready.
I'm ready here.
(40:29):
I'm gonna have to watchthis back cause I'm, I
really need to get this.
But, so when you weretalking, I was thinking
about the situations thatI hear this and what those
people have in common.
So the first, the secondthing I was thinking was
how these topics are taught.
(40:52):
How they are taught to talkabout, and I started thinking
about like working withyou younger people in the
field, students or peoplewho are like just fresher
in their careers, especiallyin the field of social work.
And it's taught oppressionand what happens to people
is taught from help thosepeople, they need help.
(41:14):
So much stuff happens tothose people over the, it's
definitely it's taught fromthis, cuz you think about
like education, how that'sset up, the narratives, who
teaches, so the conversationsare taught and spoken about
from this place of, oh, poorwhatever, groups of people
Right.
As I was thinking, I'mlike, I had that too.
(41:36):
I had that too.
Now.
It helped me because Ijust needed to acknowledge
whatever was going onwith me and undo stuff.
But I imagine people eithergoing to school or being in
workplaces with people whofacilitate conversations from
that place of, oh, poor people.
And I hope that makes sense cuzit could be anybody looking at
(41:58):
whoever experiences oppressionis that's really sad for you.
Let's talk about how sad that isand let's do something for you.
It doesn't come from a placeof like liberation to me.
I always get activated when Ihear I don't wanna be a victim.
Like it's not about, talkingabout this stuff is not about
sitting in victimhood at all.
Talking about it is to name andto liberate from that place.
(42:23):
To be able to make decisionsfor ourselves about what's
happening, what doesn'thappen, what it means.
Like all the stuff thatyou were saying was from
a place of liberation.
But my aha moment is howthe conversations are taught
and how they are facilitated
current day, are not froma place of we are doing
this in order to achieveliberation and to achieve
(42:45):
healthy relationships.
It's not framed in that way.
And this helps me because Ifeel very aligned with that and
I think I, I believe I teachthis way but not explicitly.
And I wanna be more explicit inthe teaching because it's not
about speaking this way so thatwe see people as victims at all.
(43:10):
Right.
But any, anyway, letme just stop there.
That was just my aha moment.
I just appreciate you forspeaking what you said
out loud cuz it just, itmade me learn something.
So the piece that I, that youactivated for me was like, the
importance and the need of theframework that I come from is
about building relationships.
(43:32):
And how do you goabout doing that?
And I think that's evensomewhat of a nuance too, right?
Because it's I need you to getthe truth and how do we hold
capacity to build a relationshipeven with that truth?
Cause it's not a, it'sa very ugly truth.
and I feel like I'm gonnastop right there, but that
was the piece that came upwas like, oh, ultimately
it's a, for me, I lean intothe building relationships
(43:53):
because that's such a neededpiece of how we navigate this.
but the question then beinglike, how do you navigate
these tumultuous terrain?
To build relationships whenthat's so much a longstanding
history and negative andeven societal dynamics
that are very present, so
Yes.
I like the part of holdingthe space for all of it.
(44:13):
there's space forall of the things.
And I also wanna be cleartoo, like I'm not even saying
the, not having to be froma place of victimhood does
not mean we don't acknowledgethe effed up stuff that we're
actually talking, like thatis acknowledged, but we're not
acknowledging it so that wecan just look at people like
(44:38):
they are less than or needsome sort of like help and
they're not part of a process.
And I love the relational piece.
Like I really love that.
I feel like we've wovethat in all throughout
this conversation.
And I also feel like thisis why it's important for us
to come back to that convoabout how to help people do
that because, I don't thinkthat's terribly common.
(45:01):
I don't.
Yeah, so this may be a slightaside from that, I was on a
panel, and, black educators.
And so I think that they,we were asking about,
how do we make space for,healthy professionals, black
professionals in education?
Because one of my strugglesas an educator, teaching at a
(45:25):
predominantly white institutionwas recognizing like, and
even I it was recognizingthat, educators can be bitter,
educators of color can behella bitter and righteously
so because they're entrenchedwithin a system that I would've
thought is a place where we'reforward- thinking we're teaching
(45:48):
the new concepts and whatnot.
And that is not thecase in terms of how
they get to navigate.
And this is speaking from,teaching in a predominantly,
in a black program and or evenlooking at Chicano programs.
And it's just wow,the struggle is real.
And it really is a microcosmof the bigger picture in
(46:09):
terms of how, marginalizedcommunities, even in these
particular spaces, have somuch to have to fight for.
And it's like you're dealingwith so much day in, day
out, and, It can be very,a very negative space.
So then how doyou navigate that?
How do stand up for yourstudents and try to stand
up for your departmentand stand up for yourself?
(46:30):
And it's such a challengingspace to have to sit in, that
the piece is in the contextof what you were talking.
It just came up for me justbecause I recognize so many
professionals in educationthat, black, latino, otherwise,
there's a real, at times there'sa real like raw energy, because
it's a constant fight to haveto show up in a particular
(46:54):
way to deal with all thethings you have to deal with.
And I know everybody isn'tas fortunate as I to be able
to just- Ain't dealing withy'all and jump to something
else and whatnot, and so Yeah.
Yes.
I actually would like to weavethat into the thing that we
bookmarked, because that,that definitely is connected.
(47:16):
And I resonated with a lotof that too, just in the
experience of holding thatspace, moving things forward,
all the other stuff going on.
Your own experiences, likehow much can you really, how
much can you really hold?
Like what's realistic?
Cuz there's the skill part andthen there's all of life in
(47:36):
what that means in your capacityto use it at any given time.
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
Look, let's put the pin in thatand just wrap up with, is there
anything that we wanna say onthis topic before we wrap up?
We feel like wegot all the things.
No, no.
I think, for me, I appreciatethe conversation, in
(47:57):
particularly, and I actuallydo look forward to going back
to that, the bookmark piecearound how facilitating and
navigating those waters.
But I think it's a spacewhere as we are developing the
skillset and the capacity tohave these conversations, I
think there's such a gift infront loading and experience
(48:21):
a conversation that can helpsomebody lean in and, engage in
a different way as opposed towhen we just spring stuff on it.
And so I think leaning into thatis another great way that we can
help set the stage to have theseconversations and dialogues
in professional spaces.
Even if it's like, Hey, let'sset up a meeting to specifically
(48:44):
talk about A, B and C.
And let's not run from it.
Let's not- even if it's, we'rejust taking in information for
some, it might be hard to hear.
So maybe the first step isjust, yo, let's just call
out the elephants in theroom and organizations,
that's a challenging spaceto do because, but this is
where I think organizationalleadership has to take place
because they have to be willing
(49:05):
to front load it to leadby example, and do the work
themselves to develop thatawareness, because that was
the other piece that I'vehad in these trainings.
They'll be like, yo, thisis a great training, but our
leadership needs to be here.
Yeah.
yep.
That happens all the time.
And even in spaces withleaders, I feel like
(49:25):
I still hear that too,
right.
Yeah.
the leaders.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
or the other leadersthat not here
need to really be here.
Thank you so much, Kendrick.
I also enjoyed this.
I feel like there were so manythings we did not get to, but
the things that we did get to,I personally found very helpful.
(49:48):
And even like the ahamoment, I was like, oh my
gosh, I'm having a wholesituation going on right now.
It makes sense.
I just thank you, and Ilook forward to being able
to do this on future topics
and hopefully peoplefound this super helpful.
If people wanna get in touchwith you, how can they,
I'll leave your info in thedescription, but what's the
(50:08):
best way to contact you?
So actually I'm developing it.
My website is getting workedon right now, and it is simply
just gonna be kendrickdial.com.
So I give it a little time,otherwise you can Google me.
But, if you wanna emailme kdialmsw@gmail.com,
that's another way.
But kendrickdial.comthat'll be coming up.
And, and yeah, we'llbe able to engage.
(50:30):
Okay, perfect.
yeah, so if you found thisuseful, I suggest you share
it with people close toyou, coworkers, leaders,
people in your network.
use it as a discussion tooland maybe you can use it with
teams, people, anybody whocan find a helpful, use it
and talk about it and share.
if you wanna connect withme, you can visit my website,
(50:51):
livingunapologetically.com.
There you can access mysocial media and email.
There are free tools for you todeepen your practice, including
more episodes in this series.
You also have access to buy mybook, Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Other than that, thank youso much for listening and
I hope to connect soon.
(51:11):
And until then, bye.
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