September 11, 2023 • 53 mins
Join me and guest Krystal Williams Payne as we unpack the layers of learning, unlearning, and relearning, and be prepared for a shocking personal revelations. We share our lives transparently and apply our learning to what it means for people in the workplace. Find out how we navigate the emotional and physical challenges of growth and change.
In this episode, you will be able to:
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Explore the dynamic cycle of learning, unlearning, and relearning to propel your transformation.
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Realize the intriguing link between physical engagement and an effective absorption of knowledge.
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Navigate the three critical stages in the learning realm: Receiving fresh knowledge, shedding prior assumptions, and embracing renewed outlooks.
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Participate in an encompassing physical connection during your learning journey for an all-rounded internalization.
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Cultivate a sense of trust and openness to establish a conducive space for self-evolution.
The guest for this episode is Krystal Williams Payne
Step into the fascinating mind of Krystal Williams Payne, a licensed marriage and family therapist, yoga instructor, and sound healer. She brilliantly integrates these aspects, painting a picture of what it means to truly be connected with ourselves. She espouses a refreshing focus on challenging established narratives and getting closer to a healthier relationship with our bodies and minds. Proactively engaging with her expertise, Krystal shines a light on the trials of personal growth, making way for a journey of discovery and enlightenment.
One of My Fave Moments: The Challenges of DEI Work DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) work can be immensely rewarding but also quite rigorous. It requires an ongoing and layered process of learning. It challenges frames, reframes, and shifts perspectives on things that are personal to people, inviting professionals to constantly question, reassess, and adjust their attitudes and approaches. Krystal and I discuss the unique challenges DEI practitioners face. We emphasize the critical need for self-exploration and emotional resilience in our professions. Krystal and I highlight that practitioners should commit to deeply understanding and managing their emotions, capable of sitting with discomfort. This forms an essential bridge to facilitate growth in others, underlining the need for DEI practitioners to practice what they preach consistently.
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
To get in touch with Krystal Williams Payne, you can contact her here:
The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:00 - Setting the Stage
00:04:55 - Introduction to Learni
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
this is really connectedto white supremacy.
(00:02):
I didn't know that.
And so I'm learning itI was like, yo, like I,
man, I drink the juice too.
But that's howmarketing operates.
That's how capitalism operates.
That's how whitesupremacy operates.
And so I was just kind oflike, okay, I'm learning
it, but therapist, how amI supposed to apply this?
Thank
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
(00:24):
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talking aboutthe process of people learning,
unlearning, and relearning.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI Expert.
And if you are new here, weare openly unpacking real life
scenarios and issues that comeup in our interactions with each
other in professional settingsor in other spaces where we feel
like we have to be buttoned up.
(00:45):
And the goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
stuff that happens in thoseinteractions so that we can
learn about them and growfrom them as a community
that cares about diversity,equity, and inclusion.
As always with every singleepisode, the things that I say,
the viewpoints, those are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:22):
Today, our guest is
K will, to me, KrystalWilliams Payne, to the world,
a very close friend of mine.
I've known, wait, howlong have I known you?
Been, like, a decade plus.
Probably like by 12 plus years.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
You really are a deep friend.
(01:44):
You know the pain points andyou have helped me through
things and vice versa.
Like we call each other forthe things that you really
need a good friend for.
I'm really looking forward tohaving this discussion with
you for many different reasons.
The way that you be showing upis so like real and engaging
and your perspective is all,it always teaches me something.
(02:04):
And you always lead with yourown stuff, which is amazing
because it gives us a windowinto what it really looks like.
Let me introduce myself.
I go by Krystal Williams Payne.
I use
she, her pronouns.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist with an
emphasis on assisting BIPOCindividuals find peace with
(02:28):
food and building a healthierand a better relationship
with food as well as exercise.
I lead from a place ofself compassion, and
also body-based work.
So what that means isoftentimes we're operating
from a space where we'reonly operating from the neck
up, and we're really notpaying attention about what's
happening from the neck down.
(02:49):
So in the work that I do,especially incorporating
being a yoga instructor andsound healer as well, I really
do want people that I workwith, to be invited to what's
going on from the neck down.
Our body is storing so manyemotions that is happening and
that we're not even aware of.
And so we can build someawareness around that through
yoga through sound healing,and through talk therapy.
(03:12):
That's where I'm here for.
I am also a wife.
I am a newfound dog momto a beautiful eight month
old, Boston Terrier, hername is Whiskey, who's
the love of my life, okay,and my wife knows it.
And we don't have anyissues there, so we're good.
I am so happy to be here andto be, a part of this series.
(03:36):
And thank you just somuch for the introduction.
Oh, and I'm sorry,the invitation.
One of the things that actuallycame up like when you started
talking was- When we haveconversations about things
that happen in professionalsettings, I really think
that people have an ideaof exactly what that means.
(03:57):
And when we say professionalsettings or other settings
where people feel like theyneed to be buttoned up, like
what you're describing, Idon't think everyone would
naturally associate thespace that you're in with the
audience that we're talking to.
And part of why I'm havingthese conversations too, is
all the stuff that you justsaid, it matters to the work
(04:20):
that we are trying to do tocreate change in organizations.
And I'm really tryingto just open that door.
All these things that happenoutside of what people
traditionally think belong inthe workplace is so helpful.
So that's anotherreason why I'm very much
looking forward to this.
And I love what you weresaying about the neck up.
That is a very tangible, that'sanother thing you do, you speak
(04:41):
very tangibly about thingsand you create this visual.
I feel like I say a lot ofthings all the time, I say, when
you're in your brain and you'renot, and you're like, from
the neck up and the neck down.
That makes so much sense.
Thank you for that.
All right.
So people learning, unlearning,relearning can mean many
things to different people.
(05:02):
I want to get into thistopic because at Living
Unapologetically, we see thesethree things often getting
lumped together as peoplelearning something, but they're
all a part of learning, butthere's different pathways to it
and very different experiencesdepending on who you are,
how you grew up and how youexperience the world today.
And so for us, I think aboutlearning as people learning
(05:25):
new information, new skills,you just didn't know much
about it, or you didn't knowanything about it at all.
So it's a new information.
And you process that howeveryou need to process it.
And then there's the unlearningpiece where there are lots
of things that we likelygrew up learning or whatever
that looks like for people.
But because we are trying toshift behaviors, we also teach
(05:48):
people to undo the things thatwe've been really used to.
That could truly bebehaviors or it could
be things that we think.
And then the real pointI think we spend a lot of
time doing as consultantsis the relearning piece.
The relearning adds anotherelement to the unlearning in
that, people are having to facestuff that's challenging and
(06:10):
doesn't necessarily align withwhat they believe to be true.
And they may have torelearn something that is
rubbing up against that.
And it takes a bit more timeto, to wrestle with that.
And not everybody decides,okay, I'm going to
completely abandon somethingthat I truly believe in.
But there is a process ofhaving to spend the time
(06:32):
to unpack, figure outwhere things came from.
What do they really mean?
What did they mean?
What do they mean now?
Is this really helpful?
And so I just like to demystifya bit that there's different
parts of the learning process.
And I'm curious, I don't knowwhat your thoughts are on that.
Is that how youthink about things?
What comes up for you?
(06:52):
Absolutely.
I would completely agreewith it that, there's a lot
of nuances and complexitiesthat go along with the
learning, the unlearning,and also the relearning.
I feel like the, there's oneaspect of when you talked
about the learning part.
Hey, I'm ingestingnew information.
And it's okay, here it goes.
(07:14):
I would say with the, theunlearning, I literally have
to deep within my level ofconsciousness or my awareness
and pull out and almost purgeout all of these beliefs,
these assumptions, theserules that I have created.
Not sometimes not even created,but I have learned over time.
(07:38):
You know what I mean?
All these messagesthat we're constantly
getting on a daily basis.
And I have to really sitthere and almost be in the
ring with those things.
I've been in the ringwith all of those, those
assumptions and those beliefs.
And I really am pickingthat apart and really going
through this process of thishurts probably sometimes even
to see, to put it in there.
(07:59):
And sometimes you're battlingwith that, and I think this is
where, when you talk about likethe relearning aspect of it,
where you're rubbing up against.
It's okay, a referee or somebodyelse is coming into that ring
where I'm I'm battling with allthese things and it could be
just, It's really difficult.
But I can completelyagree with that, again,
with the complexitiesand with the nuances,
(08:20):
with all of those things.
It's really hard, when you,when you are willing to learn
information, when you arewilling to unlearn and when
you're willing to relearnall those information, it's a
really tough thing to do andyou will be very uncomfortable
while you're doing it.
Yeah,
Oh my gosh, you will be souncomfortable doing that.
(08:41):
I think about, I love thering thing when you said that.
It just made me thinkabout many a times when
I was in my own rings.
I don't even, I say it pasttense, it's not past tense.
It's the
yeah,
current day where I stillhave to do those things.
And I, I also think it'simportant for us to talk about.
Why is it important toreally understand the
(09:01):
various levels of learning?
Because I, I think withoutknowing that, we can approach
growth by missing someimportant pieces of a process.
And I'm going to try to explainwhat I'm thinking, If people
don't see that there's learningnew information and undoing
it and facing and challengingstuff, I think we can easily
(09:22):
stay above the neck becausewe can just try to take in
new things or I understandthis is different than before.
The other aspects of learningdo require us to feel, like
physically feel, what'shappening and what things
mean to us and to change.
So when you're talkingabout the ring, like that,
(09:45):
is a really great pictureof how it is not something
that stays in our minds.
If you're in a ring, you'reusing a lot of you and your
body to be in the space.
So I just, I haven't reallythought about it like that
before, but I'm thinkingabout it now, what it's
like for people and the workthat I've seen our clients
(10:06):
do, our partners do, whenthey're truly doing the work.
It feels like that they're in aspace and fight with themselves
and maybe with other peopleor the people who taught them
things and Oh, that show, evensomething like a show, like what
the, like just so many things.
Oh, shoot.
You'd be like that.
I don't know.
I'm not into boxing that much,but I think about the people
(10:27):
on the side with the waterand you're there as the coach.
You're like, ah, he'sdoing a good job.
I need some water.
know, I know, I know, and whenyou talk about just like the, I,
and I know I threw that analogyout there, but just thinking
about who's your opponent?
Who's the one kindof beating you up?
And sometimes it is the,those old belief systems
that are sometimes beatingyou up in, in such a way.
(10:49):
And I think about if I'm havinga full body experience, cause
I'm in the ring, again, goingfrom the neck down, you don't
know, is my stomach turning whenI am approaching something else?
A new, opponent?
Is, am I, my hands likeclenching a little bit more?
Am I breathing?
You know what I mean?
While I am faced against thisparticular "opponent," as you
(11:11):
will like inside of that ring,that particular belief, that
assumption that, that thought.
And so I'm really connectingwith that full body experience
while you're doing that,because if not, you're,
again, you're just onlyoperating from the neck up.
You're not reallyfeeling the impact.
I will say that you're notreally absorbing the impact.
And I think when we reallyfully absorb the impact, then
(11:33):
that, helps with, I thinkit's with the shifts, with
the relearning and be willingto continue to practice it.
You know what I mean?
And then goes furtherthan practicing it.
You got to embody that,you know what I'm saying?
And so, that's whatcomes to mind for me.
Yes.
Okay.
I'm rolling with this
analogy.
Because now I'm like, okay,look, so when we do DEI stuff.
(11:58):
I feel like most of ourpartners, they're really
excited about doing it.
And you try toexplain the situation.
You try to say,Hey, you know what?
It looks really cool, right?
But like you're going to bein a ring and like a lot of
stuff is going to be happening.
And they're like, yeah,yeah, yeah, we got it.
And then we do whatwe can to describe it.
(12:19):
But it's not till youget, like, they get in
there that it's like, ah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And probably crawling,get me out of here.
Get me out of here.
I don't know if Iwant to do this.
Yes.
No, like people, no, youdon't got to say sorry.
Like look, when you showpeople the ring, we've
had clients that look.
(12:40):
No, no, we did enough.
We came into the building,we did some cool lil
practice, but up there, nothank you, not doing that.
So people won't even do it.
Then you have those thatshakingly will get in there.
Some will just throwthemselves in there.
They're in there andstill not really knowing
what all of it is.
The other thing is we cantell people- Hey, there's a
(13:01):
ring, but we don't know allthe stuff going on in there.
We don't know till youget in there, how you're
going to experience it.
But you gotta do this so thatwe can learn what is happening
in you to do different.
Even when you saidsomething that seems
small is very significant.
When you said, are your handsclenching and what does it mean?
(13:21):
And I'm like, that to meindicates someone would have to
be doing the work so much thatthey now know that in response
to these situations, theirindicator that something is
happening is their hands clench.
What are the different thingsthat you are telling yourself
and that you're feeling?
And then what do you dobesides, sit there and whatever
(13:43):
it is that the response is.
How do you move through that?
But you can't help peopleby just telling them-
hey, there's a ring.
It's over there.
Let's go practice.
In there, the rumblingand whoever it is,
they, or the opponent.
The opponent is a lotof things and people.
(14:03):
And I'm just, I'm literallyvisualizing this whole situation
and all these people likethis makes so much sense.
Yeah.
I think I have a question tooof, and I think this is probably
a thing about like, how doyou get people to trust you?
Because it's really amatter of I am giving
you an invitation, right?
(14:25):
I think there's a differencebetween the invitation
and the obligation, right?
I'm giving you an invitationto increase your awareness
and a part of that increasingyour awareness and applying
it to really embody whatI'm saying, there is going
to be bruises, right?
And how do I trust, how doyou get people to trust you?
(14:47):
On you want me toget bruised up?
You want me to be in the ringand constantly doubt myself?
On how I'm operating?
Yep.
what the, why thef*** would I do that?
And I think this is wherepeople be on the sidelines.
Be like...
No, I'm good.
I got the information.
Why the heck would Ieven want to go in there?
(15:09):
Because you're not only puttingmy mind, but you're also putting
my body even more in distress.
That doesn't seem maybe tosome people very worth it.
My nervous system is regulatedover here on the sidelines.
So I don't, I don'twant to go over there.
But I just think about like,you know, how do you get people,
and I think willingness is very,something very internal, but how
(15:31):
do you, build a trust in people,people, trust you to come
inside of the ring and endurethose bruises and recognizing
that, these, I don't know.
Just this invitation is goingto be more of a, I guess a
long term internal reward.
Not only just for yourself,but for others around you.
(15:53):
So they may feel like bruisesat first, but they're really
just soft pillows, possibly.
You know what I'm saying?
It's just it could feel thatway because it's new, right?
I'm applying it.
I'm really stretchingmyself in a way.
So yes, you'regoing to feel sore.
Yes, you're going to feelsome particular bruises.
But, like with any of those,with those analogies, you get
(16:14):
through like the tunnel, getthrough like the darkness in
order to just see the light.
I guess the ultimate questionis Charmaine, how do you
get people to like, justgo into this process, And I
guess maybe that's the like,
Yeah.
No, I'm following you and Ithink my answer, I'll first
start with what it lookslike now, and then explain.
I think there's a part of beingin the ring that people can
(16:38):
see, maybe consultants or peoplewho are experienced, people
see people in the ring and I'mstill in it, but I'm not on as
much of a struggle bus as I was.
Now when people see me inthe ring, they think I'm
just in there doing well.
And I'm like, I'm notalways doing well.
I've just learnedhow to be in here.
(16:58):
So I let them see that.
And I let them see and know,my whole process to even
get in the ring, there was awhole part of my life where
I was nowhere near the ring.
No, nowhere near it.
Didn't even know they existed.
And I had to do, I still haveto, there was a good part of
(17:22):
my twenties where I was reallyhaving to face things that
I was doing, things that Ithought, things I was taught
about people, myself included.
In particular, I was justengaging in a lot of isms.
As many of the isms youcan think of, I likely
had the stereotypical,judgy thoughts about them.
(17:45):
And I had to experience alot of discomfort and anger
and all of that other stuff.
I was in the ring and I figuredout the ring on my, I didn't
have a person to support me.
I figured out thering on my own.
And what I do with people isnormalize that entire process.
That even though I amsomeone that's coaching you
and appears to have got itfigured out, I still don't
(18:07):
have it all figured out.
And I had to do exactlywhat you're experiencing
and I know it very well.
So I use myself as anexample, any chance I can.
I use myself as an example,what the story can look like and
what it did look like for me.
And then I rumble in the ringcurrent day for people to
see it too, because I don'thave it all figured out.
(18:29):
So I'm in there.
I'm not behind them,pushing them up there.
I'm in the ring.
Hey, you want to, youwant to come up here?
I got you.
I can't help you do all thefighting, but I'm in here too.
And I've, I have heard, thisis just what people tell
me, they say that they dotrust because I normalize it.
It looks tangible and noone has to be perfect.
(18:54):
If I have done this forthis long, or however long,
years, and people see thatit looks like I'm further
along in my journey, but alsoI don't have it all figured
out, it's okay to go in thereand experience something.
And, there's the part whereI believe that DEI work
is much more clinical thanpeople associate with it.
(19:17):
Because I use a good amount oftherapist-y skills with people.
Because it's not justabout learning information.
This stuff meanssomething to you.
You hearing feedbackmeans something to you.
You're not liking somethingor people are seeing and
hearing your viewpointdoesn't feel good to you.
And it requires a holding,like you, that's how I
(19:40):
describe it, have to holdpeople in their stuff.
And I can hold that.
That's what our consultants do.
We hold space for theencouragement to go into
the ring, the unpacking.
What is all of this?
What, how can we help youfigure out what it means?
Can you stand there alittle longer to feel what
it feels like so we cansee what you're doing?
So we can see what you'refeeling and make a shift.
(20:02):
And I think that's a long answerto say, just use myself as an
example and a model, and I doit with them as much as I can.
Yeah, and I want to know, youcan reply to me, but I'm gonna
want to know the same from you.
Let's not miss that, okay?
No, no, I think, personalexperience and personal
(20:23):
application, is very helpful,And I think because, when
you're in that leadership role,people are perceiving you, as
having it all figured out andnot necessarily understanding
the struggle behind it andalso recognizing too that
this is an ongoing process.
And so would it be fair tosay that this is a process
(20:44):
and not a destination, right?
Yeah,
100%,
So I'm inviting you tomy particular process,
and I want to hold spacefor you and your process.
And knowing, oh my gosh,the destination is, the
process is the destination.
The destination is the journey,the destination is the process.
Is
Yeah.
(21:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something like
that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I was watching theshow Swagger the other
day and they talked about,it's a really cute show.
I think they had mentionedsomething like that about the,
the journey is the destination.
There's not like a once Iget to that, to that shop,
that's it, it's just no,the process is what it is.
(21:27):
And having that, and I think,when people are unlearning
certain things, and relearning,I think it's important for
people to understand that.
That it's a process.
It's not a destination.
It's going to be an ongoingthing because you're going
to be faced with so manydifferent realities in your
home life, in your work life,while you're still unpacking.
You don't know what, what'sgoing to activate you.
(21:48):
You have no idea, And you don'tknow when it's going to come.
So it's going to be a process.
It's going to be a lifelong.
So I think that it'sso important for
people to understand.
And I think hopefullywhen people do have that
understanding, it givesthem more of an, a kind
of an opening and more ofa push or, they see that
invitation less threatening,when they go in there.
(22:08):
Yeah.
I'm really curious to know, whathas been, like, your own process
of unlearning, relearning?
what has thatlooked like for you?
You can share as much oras little as you want.
I'm just like, whatdoes it look like?
And I'm wondering if youcould be an example of what
it could look like by sharing.
I think, a big example thathas been really significant,
(22:29):
I think in my life is just,my relationship with food and
my relationship with exercise.
And, that has been astruggle since I was a kid.
And, I would, chronic bingeeater and, a chronic dieter.
I got to a point in my lifewhere it was just I'm not only
(22:52):
hurting, I feel like somethingin my spirit was just I'm tired.
I don't want to do this anymore.
And I recognized how itwas also impacting my,
romantic relationships.
And I was like, I want toshift this a little bit.
And I sought out therapy.
It was so funny.
(23:12):
I was in Sedona.
My wife took me on a trip.
I've never beento Sedona before.
It was in Sedona and meand her are sitting on the
couch and we're watching howStella got her groove back.
My wife's crying and I'mover here having this
existential, like existential,like crisis going on.
Like I gotta changemy life, whatever.
(23:35):
And so I reached out to atherapist that specialized
in disordered eating andthings of that nature.
And so during that process,it was a lot of me, learning
about how diet culturehas been impacting me.
And the thing about it isI've heard this before.
I've heard this years agobefore I was ready and
(23:58):
willing to be more open to,what I was ready to receive.
And so I heard it andit was just kind of
like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's good for those folks,but over here, I'm good.
And then fast forward, Irealized, whoa, what I'm
learning, I'm like, shoot, like
that stuff that peoplewere saying, I didn't
realize how much thatwas hurting other people.
(24:21):
I didn't realize how me,commenting on somebody else's
weight was impacting somebody.
Or, oh yeah.
Hey girl.
Oh, you lost weight.
Oh, fierce, fire, period.
And recognizing dang,like I could actually,
I could have been likeendorsing an eating disorder.
I could have been endorsinga medical condition that
(24:42):
they didn't share with mewhy this was happening.
And then I had to take inventoryfor myself and it was just
kind of like, shoot, likethis has also been hurting me.
And then I started to do alittle bit more kind of the
guidance of my therapistand also just me doing my
own kind of like learningis how far deep does this
whole diet culture stuff go?
(25:04):
And then realizing likethis is really connected
to white supremacy.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know that, thesedifferent rules that we have
today that we have marketedthat has gone way before.
It's so many beautifulexamples of that.
And so I'm learning it andI was like, yo, like I,
(25:26):
man, I drink the juice too.
But that's what marketing work,that's how marketing operates.
That's how capitalism operates.
That's how whitesupremacy operates.
And so I was just kind oflike, okay, I'm learning
it, but therapist, how amI supposed to apply this?
Thank
Thanks for the information,
you for the information.
(25:48):
And so I'm like, okay,like the, the unlearning,
aspect of it too.
I really had to sit andthink about some of the rules
and assumptions that I hadand really had to look at
my own like anti fatness.
And had to look at myown bias, which was very
hurtful for myself becauseI'm looking, thinking about
family members and get aboutcommunity, thinking about the
(26:10):
judgments that I've had onother people, other bodies.
Things of how I'm, how I lookat them is how I look at myself.
Starting there,that was, I hurt.
Like big time.
And it was, thatwas really hard.
And, and so what happenedwas with the, unlearning how
to put all of my kind of mybelief systems on inside of
(26:31):
the ring and assumptions anddifferent rules that I had.
In the midst of all of that, Ireally started to get confused.
I think that's alsoin the ring as well.
It's like confusion.
It's huh?
I got attacked by like certainthings and I'm confused.
And an example, I think ofthat confusion of okay, if I'm
going to adopt this new lens...
(26:53):
so does that mean I can'tgo on a diet anymore?
Does that mean Ican't do this anymore?
Really?
What's the rules here?
Like, when am I allowed to do,what am I not allowed to do?
what happens?
And it was so
I'm sorry, this is just, I'mlike, I get everything you're
saying, okay, keep going, sorry.
(27:17):
just met with that,which was so frustrating.
It was so frustrating.
I had to really just sitwith that a little bit.
And I remember, my therapistkind of teaching me some
different tools and thingsof that nature, as well as
what I've also learning.
And recognizing that thisis a part of the process.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
I'm not a bad person forstill to feel this way.
(27:40):
And, I thought about when,when it gets to the process
of relearning certain things,applying certain tools that
I've utilized, that I, havebeen learning, recognizing,
I think, shared before, likeit's a grieving process.
There was a lot of thingsthat I really felt like
was so hard to give up.
(28:01):
Where giving up myscale, for instance.
That was so hard to do.
I'm coming to tears because itwas so hard to give up my scale.
I was on it all the time.
That, that, that scale waslike my sister in a way.
You know what I mean?
It informed me of my worth,informed me of like my value.
(28:26):
And that has been a, Iembodied that so strongly
for so many years.
And even though it washurting me, I was just
kind of like, this is hard.
And throwing thataway was huge for me.
And it took a minute, again,feeling that embodiment, like
even just holding it in my hand.
(28:47):
I took it in and out ofthe trash can, I don't
know how many times.
So many times.
And so recognizing again,that's the process.
okay, I'm gonna give this up.
Okay.
No, no, no.
I'm not ready.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
This is the day.
This is the day.
Okay.
No, right?
And because there's agrieving process that
happens, like I had said.
Or the grieving, the idea ofokay, if I don't go on a diet
(29:10):
anymore, then I'm not going to,and then I don't lose weight.
Then I'm losing, Imight lose community.
I might lose kind of socialinteractions, Or social
engagements in conversations.
I'm going to lose out oncompliments because people
tend to compliment folks onlywhen they're in smaller bodies.
That was a huge, that's, I'mlike, gosh, I'm gonna get that.
(29:31):
I kind of like that, you know?
That's hard.
I am wearing this, ain't I?
Yes.
And and then I think it, it goestoo with that particular battle
of how difficult the process is.
And then I had to get,accept, or I would say
be open to, again, whatI was receiving because
(29:52):
there was so much evidencethroughout the midst of that.
There was so much evidenceof how, this new idea, this
new perspective is working.
I feel so much better.
The thing about it ismy conversations with
my friends are better.
My conversations withmy wife is better.
(30:13):
Just being open tothis new perspective.
Me being able to advocatefor myself and other
bodies, being again, evenas a yoga teacher too.
That might be a whole notherthing too, because in that
space is very thin bodiedand not accessible to all
bodies and, how the mediaperceives, yoga, which stops,
(30:37):
BIPOC folks or other bodiesgetting into that space.
And I think we need itmore now than ever, um,
the sense of wellness.
And the thing about it isbecause all the things I
said, white supremacy anddiet culture, capital,
it's all around me and thatshoot ain't gonna stop.
(30:58):
It is here.
And I have, it's here as faras like not stopping in a
sense of there are some thingsthat it's just, it's ongoing.
So therefore my processof relearning and
unlearning is ongoing.
You know what I mean?
I do have a good hold of it.
Like you had mentioned before,I just stopped wrestling with
(31:20):
certain stuff and kind ofwas able to just settle in.
I can really resonate whatpeople will perceive me
as you got us together,like, Oh, Krystal, you can,
you can have bread now.
Oh, you can eat, have cerealnow and not be afraid of it.
Because of this particularprocess, it seems easy.
But not understandinglike the role behind it.
It's just becauseI settled in it.
I had, I really wentthrough the depths of...
(31:44):
of it all.
And, and still givingmyself some grace and some
openness that this is goingto be an ongoing process.
But damn, like Ifeel so much better.
So much lighter mentally,physically, spiritually.
And I think that people,other people can feel that.
(32:04):
And I love thatversion of myself.
Except for the version I wastrying to chase or hold on to
so tightly back in the day.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
First and foremost, thank
Yeah.
That was, I'm also sitting here.
I've been your friendfor a long time.
I have never heard this story.
So I'm also, I'm hearing itand I'm like, And I don't
(32:27):
even, and I'm not going togo into the whole thing now,
but I get almost everythingthat you were talking about.
As someone who had to facethe fact that I had a binge
eating disorder as well.
Like I, I understand.
There are so many parts andlayers to what you're saying.
And I'm just sittingwith all of that.
(32:47):
First of all, I'm like stillprocessing how layered that was.
I think that example doesa really good job of how
layered our learning is.
You shared the new info andthen you were like, what are
the confusion was very real.
Wait, what?
You said, huh?
I really felt that I washaving my own process.
(33:10):
And then I was thinking aboutour partners, people that we
work with that do their ownstruggle with many topics.
While again, while peoplemight not associate this.
specific topic is somethingthat relates to work.
One, it actually does.
And two, this experiencethat you're describing
happens across many topics.
(33:32):
So I just appreciatedit as the new info.
And then it was like, huh?
And then you describedwhat wrestling really looks
like being in that ring.
And then I really appreciatedthat window into the really
tough moments of the grief.
I think people look at stuffand they're like, Oh, you
learn it and you're supposedto know, like, it's just
(33:52):
the right thing to do.
Go learn and do better.
It's like, hold on.
When you really unpack it.
Okay.
You can't send things ontheir way all the time.
Some stuff.
Okay.
But when you're really doing thework and you really go inside
to figure out where it all camefrom and the meaning of stuff
and the feelings of the meaning.
(34:14):
It's like scale.
You said sister.
When you saidscale is my sister.
I said, Oh, that wasa deep relationship.
You had to let your sister go.
I understood that.
I also understood that I've,the experience you just
described, I've seen with ourclients in many different ways.
I don't think thatthey would name it.
(34:35):
The way that you've named thingswith that grief was so powerful.
And then I just sawyou all up in the ring.
Just some of it was like,okay, is this over yet?
But at some point you'relike in the ring, but you're
not in this defense mode.
Like you just gettingattacked all the time.
Now it's oh shoot, likehere comes the punch.
Oh, got my cheek right there.
(34:56):
But okay, I knowhow to deal with it.
If you need to sit downfor a sec, you can, but
you didn't leave the ring.
You just learnedhow to be in there.
You just, your whole story wasjust a beautiful illustration
of what it can look like.
And I also acknowledgeand see your journey.
And that's one partof your journey.
(35:17):
And there's another partof it too, that I know is
very real in workplaces.
I've done it myself andI've seen other people
do it is the value on,thinness, white bodies.
The ways that weunintentionally, a lot of
times, say things, do things
(35:39):
that could impact people.
And I know for me, tangibly,like growing up with a binge
eating disorder, it was whenI went to therapy and I tell
you, I cleared out the room,but there was a rug and
I had to lift up the rug.
And I was like, this is likethe most significant thing.
But at work, what I wasexperiencing was a lot of
stuff I wasn't aware ofbecause I didn't really
(35:59):
know that part of myself.
Not only was I saying thingsto people, but I would find
myself- people would saythings or do things that
I would get activated notreally understanding why.
People could easily say, sothen I'm just like, mad or
whatever in my own shame spiral.
Or I would avoid lookingat mirrors at work.
I could not.
And every day I'd walk up thestairs and at the top of the
(36:22):
stairs, there's this mirror.
Okay.
And I just, I would walkup and I'll go like this.
I just, that's how bad,that's how significant it was.
I don't want to say bad.
That's how severe it was though.
So when people would make thecomments that we're talking
about, it activates me.
Then I go into myown shame spiral.
I'm impacted.
And then I'm walking aroundin my own anger, treating
(36:43):
certain people a way thathas nothing to do with them.
Nothing.
But I didn't know that.
I'm just walkingaround kind of angry.
And got an attitudeor whatever else.
So then I'm hurt.
Then I go hurt other people.
And it's just a cyclethat can go on and on.
And this is just onecategory of something.
Yeah,
So at work, I, when I learnedabout my own disorder,
(37:09):
and what I was doing andwhat it meant, it helped
me be more aware at work.
It helped me show updifferently, speak
differently, be more awareof people and their stories.
And when I was activated,I then got to decide
how I was gonna respond.
Instead of going intothat default autopilot.
Y'all going to get this angeror y'all not gonna see I'm
(37:31):
gonna disappear the rest ofthe day, whatever it was.
It's just like these...
These moments that you'redescribing or that I'm
describing are so relatedto professional settings
because they are how we showup and interact with people.
Hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
(37:51):
I just thank you so much.
Like that, I was like, I wantto do something with this.
I've already recorded it, butI'm like, dang, this is so good.
I appreciate you.
Yeah, I appreciateyou too, Charmaine.
I'm also thinking people arelistening and they realize,
okay, cool, I get it.
This ring situation is for me.
(38:14):
Are there any cause partof the journey is that
you can have support.
And then there's some stuffthat people can do, might
want to have on their radars.
I'm wondering like whatwe could share with people
so that they can do someparts of the work knowing
that support is part of it.
(38:36):
What are some like tangiblethings people could do?
Read.
I'm not, I'm not evengonna lie to you.
Information is elevation.
And, and getting theright information too.
There's so many differentresources that is
out there and that isavailable and accessible.
I say that for one.
(38:57):
Two,
and this might be hard.
I don't know if thisis tangible, but this
may be difficult.
So, uh,
don't run awayfrom your feelings.
Not running awayfrom your feelings.
The more we run away from them,the more that our bodies and
our brains will detect, Oh, I'msupposed to be afraid of that.
I think there's adifference between I'm
uncomfortable, right?
(39:19):
Versus, what's anotherpart, which basically
describes that I'm in danger.
If I am looking at thisparticular thought, let's
just say thought, orthings of that nature, or
this particular feeling.
Let's just say that our feelingand I'm running away from
it, our brains will detectthat I'm in danger, right?
(39:40):
So that feeling is dangerous.
It's important that maybewe can name certain things
that like- Hey, this isuncomfortable for me, or,
and I like to help clientswith learning their feelings,
this feels very tender.
This feels very hot.
This feels very, I dunno, warmor cold or, tingly, right?
(40:02):
Because if it's feeling veryhot, go drink some water that's
full of ice cubes, right?
If it's tingly, I wantyou to rub on something
that's soft, right?
And so I think this is a matterof us just feeling because
like we've mentioned earlier.
When you're enteringinto the ring, you're
going to hit some blows.
You're going to feel confusion.
You're going to feel, doubtand, maybe even some fear cause
(40:26):
you're faced with the unknown.
If you can go into thering knowing those things
and being open to thosesensations and understand
hey, this is uncomfortable,but I'm not in danger.
I am, I'm justuncomfortable right now.
Sometimes it can be very,help helpful naming it,
(40:47):
I want to say somethingabout that one
particular thing, because
yeah.
it's a really bigpart of what people in
organizations experience.
And it's that,discomfort and safety...
At times feeling like theyare used interchangeably.
(41:08):
Now I want to be clear and say,plenty of workplaces are unsafe.
Plenty of situationsand dynamics are unsafe.
So I'm going to honor that.
And I'm going to lift upthat when people experience
that stuff that you'rejust talking about right
now, like we have theseresponses and they're already
associated with fear, danger.
(41:31):
When we don't slow downand know what that is,
it's just that already.
It's fear, it's dangerous, and Iwant to distance myself from it.
That was like my defaultabout everything all the time.
I'm sure you know this, you'vebeen my friend for a long time.
I wasn't, I don't likeit, it's cut off, goodbye.
That's all I did.
I didn't learn anything.
I still have to be very awarethat this is, I don't like it,
(41:54):
I don't like it, it's unsafe,I have to leave the situation.
However, when we don't knowand we just leave because
our bodies or our mindstell us it's unsafe without
really processing, is thisthe situation that's unsafe?
Or are these feelings associatedwith something that was unsafe?
But when we instantly say it'sunsafe without knowing if...
(42:17):
this is the situation thatwe truly exit moments that...
we avoid an exit moments.
Now I've seen, I've seen somereally unintentional exits.
I've also seen people beingaware that this might not
be one of those things, butI actually don't like it.
So I'm going to justexit the situation.
(42:38):
Yeah.
So when you're saying like,sit with the feelings and know
them, I'm thinking about thevery real life examples and how
many times I have seen peoplenot know they're feeling so much
that they associate the feelingwith the moment and exit it,
and it might not be that thing.
(42:58):
And I know this because inthe unpacking with people,
not only do I help peoplesit in their stuff in a
moment, I also check in afterand unpack those moments.
And I can tell you, it isnot uncommon in the unpacking
afterwards, what peopledescribed as unsafe in the
moment wasn't the moment.
It was what it brought up forthem about something else, and
(43:21):
then they missed the moment.
Yeah.
And I just, I don't want totell people things aren't unsafe
because they be unsafe at work.
But not everything is,and so when we name it, we
leave it, and maybe it'sdiscomfort that we don't like.
When people say, safety versusdiscomfort, I feel like that's
the layer in there that we'renot really talking about.
(43:43):
And if you don't know yourfeelings, then you got
to spend time with them.
Like you just said, andI thank you for that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that, and I've workedwith a lot of individuals that
have a difficult time withcommunicating their feelings.
Let alone feeling them.
(44:05):
Everybody's operating fromthe neck up, and I get
how difficult that is.
But there is an aha momentwhen you do, are open
to seeing what's goingon with the neck down.
It's a huge aha moment.
So that way you can catchin that moment, Hey, I'm
feeling this sensationthat's coming over me.
And before I exit out thatdoor, I'm able to regulate
(44:26):
for a second to really assesswhat is that pit in my stomach
that I'm feeling right now?
That brief, that, that briefmoment can really change, again,
how people move forward withthe unlearning process of,
with the relearning process,or missing out on certain
moments of that brief moment.
If they learn how tofeel their feelings.
(44:47):
It can just go a long way.
Accessing that levelof consciousness is, it
can go such a long way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, that just contributesto the experience in the ring.
As somebody who, I don't thinkI felt any emotion besides numb
or anger till I started therapy.
And I think I was like 30or, it was like, later.
(45:09):
And when I was in therapy,that's when I realized, Oh,
like I didn't, I was so cut off.
I just didn't even know that Ididn't know what emotions were.
I had to learn what they were.
And then I had to feel them.
By the way, that ringsituation, I feel like
(45:29):
that almost took me out.
Like,
took me out.
But that's what Itell people too.
It can be incrediblydifficult just to, get the
new information and wrestlewith the new information.
But when your life experienceis not feeling emotions, I
understand it's difficult.
I do.
I do.
(45:50):
And if you don't deal withit, you cannot, you won't
get to this place of realchange if you can not get
further into your body.
And I think about when I firststarted doing therapy, this is
actually relevant to my currentpractice as a DEI practitioner.
But you know how when you'recollecting hours and you got
(46:11):
to record yourself and...
I hated doing that.
But I watched myself and Iliterally saw how I capped
someone else's growthbecause I was uncomfortable
in emotion spaces.
Now, I thought I was doingpretty good and I think I was
doing okay, but I saw myself.
And I had to see, oh crap,I made that decision to exit
(46:33):
because I was uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Like I was running this wholeshow and they got an experience,
but not a really solid one.
And that prompted me to getmy stuff together even more.
I was like, you will feelthe depths of the emotions.
Cause you're not going tobe the person that gets
in someone else's way.
And it sounded great till Ihad to go back up in that ring.
(47:00):
So now, when you ask me thatquestion very early on, like,
how do you gain the trust?
Girl, because
Yeah.
I had to do the stuff thatI'm asking people to do.
I'm still doing this stuffthat I'm asking people to do.
I do not have ittogether and that's okay.
I'm just trying to teachpeople whatever I can.
(47:22):
With what I have.
That's my boat.
Yeah.
I'm totally on thesame boat with that.
Yeah, you're the feeling,the feelings aspect
of it is, it's hard.
It's one thing to acknowledge,Hey, I got feeling.
There they go.
This is my stomach.
There it goes.
No wonder why I havedigestive issues.
(47:42):
And so the next thing youknow, it's like, okay,
I'm, I'm really feeling it.
And I think that, Ican be very scary.
You know what I mean?
I guess that could be very,very scary to actually
feel because there's areason why we have numbed
that part of us out, Yeah.
Yes.
And so while you're in theprocess of feeling your
feelings, recognize thatpart of you that had to
(48:05):
create that had to put thoseprotectors and those armors up.
And just going at yourown pace to do that.
But once it is opening,you could feel that.
Oh my gosh.
And you're like, there you go,the recovery from those intense
feelings, they don't evenreally last that long sometimes.
(48:25):
Not as long as it was before.
And you're able to communicatethem to coworkers, to your
spouse, even just to yourself,I know the thing, the work
that I do with clients as well,it's like when I do feel those
sensations, can I meet it?
Can I greet it with a pillow?
Can I greet it with compassionand with understanding
(48:47):
and not, harshness ortrying to get rid of it?
You know what I'm saying?
And that also makes ahuge difference with
your relationship, withyour feelings as well.
And in turn relationshipwith your body and all that
good stuff too, because ouremotions are in our body.
So yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
What we're talking about, I'mhoping is a really good window
(49:10):
into what this work looks like.
And what I keep trying todescribe to our partners,
or even what I'm reallywanting to make space for in
this field of DEI is, thisis the process of learning.
Although peoplewill spend so much
money into, I don't know, likecertificates and trainings
(49:35):
and the things to learn theinformation in our minds.
In my personal opinion, therearen't nearly as many DEI
practitioners who are able togo to these depths in themselves
and then for other people toget to the types of experiences
and changes that people arereally needing if they want
(49:56):
change in their organization.
It just takes so much ofyour own self discovery
as a practitioner
Yeah.
to help other people do it.
If people are looking to hireconsultants or experts, these
are the types of things thatyou want to be looking for.
What is the depth ofself to then carry
(50:17):
other people through it?
Because you don't wantto hire somebody and then
you're struggling throughit and they can't hold it.
Or have no concept of reallyhow to be in the feelings.
And that's why we are soexperiential, practice- based
like that's, that's our space.
We'll teach you someinformation, but we are
going to be sitting in thisstuff as much as possible.
(50:37):
Give you a little break,here's some water, and
then we're going to keeppracticing so you can develop
this ability to stay in it.
Because it's not, you don'thave to be in the ring
struggling for forever.
You'll just be in a ring andlearn how to be in there.
Yeah.
So I'm just likewanting to lift that up.
This work isn't for everyone.
(50:59):
And if you want to be a reallygood practitioner, just want
to encourage people to openthe door for themselves too.
And be curious about whatare the limits that your
clients are experiencing?
And your own limitations?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Is there anything else youwant to say before we wrap up?
It was a pleasure being here.
(51:21):
Thank you for holding spacefor me, especially with,
hearing my, what my internalprocess, with the learning,
unlearning, and relearning.
I really appreciate you,and I hope to do this again.
Same.
I hope you do thisagain here with me.
Like we need a regularappearance from K Will.
(51:44):
If people want to get incontact with you, what's
the best way to do that?
You can email me atKrystal with a K.
K R Y S T A L attherapytoempower.
com.
You can also follow me onYouTube at Yoga by Krystal,
where I'll be providing,mental health tips as well
(52:05):
as, asanas, which is physicalpostures, and helping people
learn about yoga, off the mat.
You can also follow me onTikTok where I post funny videos
about my life as a therapist,at Krystal the yoga therapist.
Please follow her.
Especially, I mean, in otherplaces, but like on TikTok and
I think YouTube as well, you'restarting to put stuff there too.
(52:27):
Hilarious.
Your videos bringme so much joy.
I just, I scrollbe like, unmute.
I'm trying to hear all of this.
It's hilarious.
It's hilarious.
So thank you.
If you want to get incontact with me, you can
visit me on our websiteat livingunapologetically.
com.
All of our social mediahandles are on there.
(52:47):
You can email us.
There's freebies on there.
FYI our guidedmeditations are available.
We will keep adding more.
The meditations are specific forprofessional setting situations.
People sitting in their spiralof shame after they heard
feedback and claiming worthinessin the face of discrimination.
(53:08):
And the last one ishow to prepare for
difficult conversations.
We will have more, butthose are available now.
They are free.
There's some otherstuff on there.
You'll have access to buy mybook, Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Please share thiswith your networks.
Have conversations,share how they go.
Like, comment, subscribe.
(53:30):
So until next time, hopeyou have a good one and
that we connect soon.
Bye!
Bye.
this is really connectedto white supremacy.
(00:02):
I didn't know that.
And so I'm learning itI was like, yo, like I,
man, I drink the juice too.
But that's howmarketing operates.
That's how capitalism operates.
That's how whitesupremacy operates.
And so I was just kind oflike, okay, I'm learning
it, but therapist, how amI supposed to apply this?
Thank
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
(00:24):
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talking aboutthe process of people learning,
unlearning, and relearning.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI Expert.
And if you are new here, weare openly unpacking real life
scenarios and issues that comeup in our interactions with each
other in professional settingsor in other spaces where we feel
like we have to be buttoned up.
(00:45):
And the goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
stuff that happens in thoseinteractions so that we can
learn about them and growfrom them as a community
that cares about diversity,equity, and inclusion.
As always with every singleepisode, the things that I say,
the viewpoints, those are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:22):
Today, our guest is
K will, to me, KrystalWilliams Payne, to the world,
a very close friend of mine.
I've known, wait, howlong have I known you?
Been, like, a decade plus.
Probably like by 12 plus years.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
You really are a deep friend.
(01:44):
You know the pain points andyou have helped me through
things and vice versa.
Like we call each other forthe things that you really
need a good friend for.
I'm really looking forward tohaving this discussion with
you for many different reasons.
The way that you be showing upis so like real and engaging
and your perspective is all,it always teaches me something.
(02:04):
And you always lead with yourown stuff, which is amazing
because it gives us a windowinto what it really looks like.
Let me introduce myself.
I go by Krystal Williams Payne.
I use
she, her pronouns.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist with an
emphasis on assisting BIPOCindividuals find peace with
(02:28):
food and building a healthierand a better relationship
with food as well as exercise.
I lead from a place ofself compassion, and
also body-based work.
So what that means isoftentimes we're operating
from a space where we'reonly operating from the neck
up, and we're really notpaying attention about what's
happening from the neck down.
(02:49):
So in the work that I do,especially incorporating
being a yoga instructor andsound healer as well, I really
do want people that I workwith, to be invited to what's
going on from the neck down.
Our body is storing so manyemotions that is happening and
that we're not even aware of.
And so we can build someawareness around that through
yoga through sound healing,and through talk therapy.
(03:12):
That's where I'm here for.
I am also a wife.
I am a newfound dog momto a beautiful eight month
old, Boston Terrier, hername is Whiskey, who's
the love of my life, okay,and my wife knows it.
And we don't have anyissues there, so we're good.
I am so happy to be here andto be, a part of this series.
(03:36):
And thank you just somuch for the introduction.
Oh, and I'm sorry,the invitation.
One of the things that actuallycame up like when you started
talking was- When we haveconversations about things
that happen in professionalsettings, I really think
that people have an ideaof exactly what that means.
(03:57):
And when we say professionalsettings or other settings
where people feel like theyneed to be buttoned up, like
what you're describing, Idon't think everyone would
naturally associate thespace that you're in with the
audience that we're talking to.
And part of why I'm havingthese conversations too, is
all the stuff that you justsaid, it matters to the work
(04:20):
that we are trying to do tocreate change in organizations.
And I'm really tryingto just open that door.
All these things that happenoutside of what people
traditionally think belong inthe workplace is so helpful.
So that's anotherreason why I'm very much
looking forward to this.
And I love what you weresaying about the neck up.
That is a very tangible, that'sanother thing you do, you speak
(04:41):
very tangibly about thingsand you create this visual.
I feel like I say a lot ofthings all the time, I say, when
you're in your brain and you'renot, and you're like, from
the neck up and the neck down.
That makes so much sense.
Thank you for that.
All right.
So people learning, unlearning,relearning can mean many
things to different people.
(05:02):
I want to get into thistopic because at Living
Unapologetically, we see thesethree things often getting
lumped together as peoplelearning something, but they're
all a part of learning, butthere's different pathways to it
and very different experiencesdepending on who you are,
how you grew up and how youexperience the world today.
And so for us, I think aboutlearning as people learning
(05:25):
new information, new skills,you just didn't know much
about it, or you didn't knowanything about it at all.
So it's a new information.
And you process that howeveryou need to process it.
And then there's the unlearningpiece where there are lots
of things that we likelygrew up learning or whatever
that looks like for people.
But because we are trying toshift behaviors, we also teach
(05:48):
people to undo the things thatwe've been really used to.
That could truly bebehaviors or it could
be things that we think.
And then the real pointI think we spend a lot of
time doing as consultantsis the relearning piece.
The relearning adds anotherelement to the unlearning in
that, people are having to facestuff that's challenging and
(06:10):
doesn't necessarily align withwhat they believe to be true.
And they may have torelearn something that is
rubbing up against that.
And it takes a bit more timeto, to wrestle with that.
And not everybody decides,okay, I'm going to
completely abandon somethingthat I truly believe in.
But there is a process ofhaving to spend the time
(06:32):
to unpack, figure outwhere things came from.
What do they really mean?
What did they mean?
What do they mean now?
Is this really helpful?
And so I just like to demystifya bit that there's different
parts of the learning process.
And I'm curious, I don't knowwhat your thoughts are on that.
Is that how youthink about things?
What comes up for you?
(06:52):
Absolutely.
I would completely agreewith it that, there's a lot
of nuances and complexitiesthat go along with the
learning, the unlearning,and also the relearning.
I feel like the, there's oneaspect of when you talked
about the learning part.
Hey, I'm ingestingnew information.
And it's okay, here it goes.
(07:14):
I would say with the, theunlearning, I literally have
to deep within my level ofconsciousness or my awareness
and pull out and almost purgeout all of these beliefs,
these assumptions, theserules that I have created.
Not sometimes not even created,but I have learned over time.
(07:38):
You know what I mean?
All these messagesthat we're constantly
getting on a daily basis.
And I have to really sitthere and almost be in the
ring with those things.
I've been in the ringwith all of those, those
assumptions and those beliefs.
And I really am pickingthat apart and really going
through this process of thishurts probably sometimes even
to see, to put it in there.
(07:59):
And sometimes you're battlingwith that, and I think this is
where, when you talk about likethe relearning aspect of it,
where you're rubbing up against.
It's okay, a referee or somebodyelse is coming into that ring
where I'm I'm battling with allthese things and it could be
just, It's really difficult.
But I can completelyagree with that, again,
with the complexitiesand with the nuances,
(08:20):
with all of those things.
It's really hard, when you,when you are willing to learn
information, when you arewilling to unlearn and when
you're willing to relearnall those information, it's a
really tough thing to do andyou will be very uncomfortable
while you're doing it.
Yeah,
Oh my gosh, you will be souncomfortable doing that.
(08:41):
I think about, I love thering thing when you said that.
It just made me thinkabout many a times when
I was in my own rings.
I don't even, I say it pasttense, it's not past tense.
It's the
yeah,
current day where I stillhave to do those things.
And I, I also think it'simportant for us to talk about.
Why is it important toreally understand the
(09:01):
various levels of learning?
Because I, I think withoutknowing that, we can approach
growth by missing someimportant pieces of a process.
And I'm going to try to explainwhat I'm thinking, If people
don't see that there's learningnew information and undoing
it and facing and challengingstuff, I think we can easily
(09:22):
stay above the neck becausewe can just try to take in
new things or I understandthis is different than before.
The other aspects of learningdo require us to feel, like
physically feel, what'shappening and what things
mean to us and to change.
So when you're talkingabout the ring, like that,
(09:45):
is a really great pictureof how it is not something
that stays in our minds.
If you're in a ring, you'reusing a lot of you and your
body to be in the space.
So I just, I haven't reallythought about it like that
before, but I'm thinkingabout it now, what it's
like for people and the workthat I've seen our clients
(10:06):
do, our partners do, whenthey're truly doing the work.
It feels like that they're in aspace and fight with themselves
and maybe with other peopleor the people who taught them
things and Oh, that show, evensomething like a show, like what
the, like just so many things.
Oh, shoot.
You'd be like that.
I don't know.
I'm not into boxing that much,but I think about the people
(10:27):
on the side with the waterand you're there as the coach.
You're like, ah, he'sdoing a good job.
I need some water.
know, I know, I know, and whenyou talk about just like the, I,
and I know I threw that analogyout there, but just thinking
about who's your opponent?
Who's the one kindof beating you up?
And sometimes it is the,those old belief systems
that are sometimes beatingyou up in, in such a way.
(10:49):
And I think about if I'm havinga full body experience, cause
I'm in the ring, again, goingfrom the neck down, you don't
know, is my stomach turning whenI am approaching something else?
A new, opponent?
Is, am I, my hands likeclenching a little bit more?
Am I breathing?
You know what I mean?
While I am faced against thisparticular "opponent," as you
(11:11):
will like inside of that ring,that particular belief, that
assumption that, that thought.
And so I'm really connectingwith that full body experience
while you're doing that,because if not, you're,
again, you're just onlyoperating from the neck up.
You're not reallyfeeling the impact.
I will say that you're notreally absorbing the impact.
And I think when we reallyfully absorb the impact, then
(11:33):
that, helps with, I thinkit's with the shifts, with
the relearning and be willingto continue to practice it.
You know what I mean?
And then goes furtherthan practicing it.
You got to embody that,you know what I'm saying?
And so, that's whatcomes to mind for me.
Yes.
Okay.
I'm rolling with this
analogy.
Because now I'm like, okay,look, so when we do DEI stuff.
(11:58):
I feel like most of ourpartners, they're really
excited about doing it.
And you try toexplain the situation.
You try to say,Hey, you know what?
It looks really cool, right?
But like you're going to bein a ring and like a lot of
stuff is going to be happening.
And they're like, yeah,yeah, yeah, we got it.
And then we do whatwe can to describe it.
(12:19):
But it's not till youget, like, they get in
there that it's like, ah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And probably crawling,get me out of here.
Get me out of here.
I don't know if Iwant to do this.
Yes.
No, like people, no, youdon't got to say sorry.
Like look, when you showpeople the ring, we've
had clients that look.
(12:40):
No, no, we did enough.
We came into the building,we did some cool lil
practice, but up there, nothank you, not doing that.
So people won't even do it.
Then you have those thatshakingly will get in there.
Some will just throwthemselves in there.
They're in there andstill not really knowing
what all of it is.
The other thing is we cantell people- Hey, there's a
(13:01):
ring, but we don't know allthe stuff going on in there.
We don't know till youget in there, how you're
going to experience it.
But you gotta do this so thatwe can learn what is happening
in you to do different.
Even when you saidsomething that seems
small is very significant.
When you said, are your handsclenching and what does it mean?
(13:21):
And I'm like, that to meindicates someone would have to
be doing the work so much thatthey now know that in response
to these situations, theirindicator that something is
happening is their hands clench.
What are the different thingsthat you are telling yourself
and that you're feeling?
And then what do you dobesides, sit there and whatever
(13:43):
it is that the response is.
How do you move through that?
But you can't help peopleby just telling them-
hey, there's a ring.
It's over there.
Let's go practice.
In there, the rumblingand whoever it is,
they, or the opponent.
The opponent is a lotof things and people.
(14:03):
And I'm just, I'm literallyvisualizing this whole situation
and all these people likethis makes so much sense.
Yeah.
I think I have a question tooof, and I think this is probably
a thing about like, how doyou get people to trust you?
Because it's really amatter of I am giving
you an invitation, right?
(14:25):
I think there's a differencebetween the invitation
and the obligation, right?
I'm giving you an invitationto increase your awareness
and a part of that increasingyour awareness and applying
it to really embody whatI'm saying, there is going
to be bruises, right?
And how do I trust, how doyou get people to trust you?
(14:47):
On you want me toget bruised up?
You want me to be in the ringand constantly doubt myself?
On how I'm operating?
Yep.
what the, why thef*** would I do that?
And I think this is wherepeople be on the sidelines.
Be like...
No, I'm good.
I got the information.
Why the heck would Ieven want to go in there?
(15:09):
Because you're not only puttingmy mind, but you're also putting
my body even more in distress.
That doesn't seem maybe tosome people very worth it.
My nervous system is regulatedover here on the sidelines.
So I don't, I don'twant to go over there.
But I just think about like,you know, how do you get people,
and I think willingness is very,something very internal, but how
(15:31):
do you, build a trust in people,people, trust you to come
inside of the ring and endurethose bruises and recognizing
that, these, I don't know.
Just this invitation is goingto be more of a, I guess a
long term internal reward.
Not only just for yourself,but for others around you.
(15:53):
So they may feel like bruisesat first, but they're really
just soft pillows, possibly.
You know what I'm saying?
It's just it could feel thatway because it's new, right?
I'm applying it.
I'm really stretchingmyself in a way.
So yes, you'regoing to feel sore.
Yes, you're going to feelsome particular bruises.
But, like with any of those,with those analogies, you get
(16:14):
through like the tunnel, getthrough like the darkness in
order to just see the light.
I guess the ultimate questionis Charmaine, how do you
get people to like, justgo into this process, And I
guess maybe that's the like,
Yeah.
No, I'm following you and Ithink my answer, I'll first
start with what it lookslike now, and then explain.
I think there's a part of beingin the ring that people can
(16:38):
see, maybe consultants or peoplewho are experienced, people
see people in the ring and I'mstill in it, but I'm not on as
much of a struggle bus as I was.
Now when people see me inthe ring, they think I'm
just in there doing well.
And I'm like, I'm notalways doing well.
I've just learnedhow to be in here.
(16:58):
So I let them see that.
And I let them see and know,my whole process to even
get in the ring, there was awhole part of my life where
I was nowhere near the ring.
No, nowhere near it.
Didn't even know they existed.
And I had to do, I still haveto, there was a good part of
(17:22):
my twenties where I was reallyhaving to face things that
I was doing, things that Ithought, things I was taught
about people, myself included.
In particular, I was justengaging in a lot of isms.
As many of the isms youcan think of, I likely
had the stereotypical,judgy thoughts about them.
(17:45):
And I had to experience alot of discomfort and anger
and all of that other stuff.
I was in the ring and I figuredout the ring on my, I didn't
have a person to support me.
I figured out thering on my own.
And what I do with people isnormalize that entire process.
That even though I amsomeone that's coaching you
and appears to have got itfigured out, I still don't
(18:07):
have it all figured out.
And I had to do exactlywhat you're experiencing
and I know it very well.
So I use myself as anexample, any chance I can.
I use myself as an example,what the story can look like and
what it did look like for me.
And then I rumble in the ringcurrent day for people to
see it too, because I don'thave it all figured out.
(18:29):
So I'm in there.
I'm not behind them,pushing them up there.
I'm in the ring.
Hey, you want to, youwant to come up here?
I got you.
I can't help you do all thefighting, but I'm in here too.
And I've, I have heard, thisis just what people tell
me, they say that they dotrust because I normalize it.
It looks tangible and noone has to be perfect.
(18:54):
If I have done this forthis long, or however long,
years, and people see thatit looks like I'm further
along in my journey, but alsoI don't have it all figured
out, it's okay to go in thereand experience something.
And, there's the part whereI believe that DEI work
is much more clinical thanpeople associate with it.
(19:17):
Because I use a good amount oftherapist-y skills with people.
Because it's not justabout learning information.
This stuff meanssomething to you.
You hearing feedbackmeans something to you.
You're not liking somethingor people are seeing and
hearing your viewpointdoesn't feel good to you.
And it requires a holding,like you, that's how I
(19:40):
describe it, have to holdpeople in their stuff.
And I can hold that.
That's what our consultants do.
We hold space for theencouragement to go into
the ring, the unpacking.
What is all of this?
What, how can we help youfigure out what it means?
Can you stand there alittle longer to feel what
it feels like so we cansee what you're doing?
So we can see what you'refeeling and make a shift.
(20:02):
And I think that's a long answerto say, just use myself as an
example and a model, and I doit with them as much as I can.
Yeah, and I want to know, youcan reply to me, but I'm gonna
want to know the same from you.
Let's not miss that, okay?
No, no, I think, personalexperience and personal
(20:23):
application, is very helpful,And I think because, when
you're in that leadership role,people are perceiving you, as
having it all figured out andnot necessarily understanding
the struggle behind it andalso recognizing too that
this is an ongoing process.
And so would it be fair tosay that this is a process
(20:44):
and not a destination, right?
Yeah,
100%,
So I'm inviting you tomy particular process,
and I want to hold spacefor you and your process.
And knowing, oh my gosh,the destination is, the
process is the destination.
The destination is the journey,the destination is the process.
Is
Yeah.
(21:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something like
that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I was watching theshow Swagger the other
day and they talked about,it's a really cute show.
I think they had mentionedsomething like that about the,
the journey is the destination.
There's not like a once Iget to that, to that shop,
that's it, it's just no,the process is what it is.
(21:27):
And having that, and I think,when people are unlearning
certain things, and relearning,I think it's important for
people to understand that.
That it's a process.
It's not a destination.
It's going to be an ongoingthing because you're going
to be faced with so manydifferent realities in your
home life, in your work life,while you're still unpacking.
You don't know what, what'sgoing to activate you.
(21:48):
You have no idea, And you don'tknow when it's going to come.
So it's going to be a process.
It's going to be a lifelong.
So I think that it'sso important for
people to understand.
And I think hopefullywhen people do have that
understanding, it givesthem more of an, a kind
of an opening and more ofa push or, they see that
invitation less threatening,when they go in there.
(22:08):
Yeah.
I'm really curious to know, whathas been, like, your own process
of unlearning, relearning?
what has thatlooked like for you?
You can share as much oras little as you want.
I'm just like, whatdoes it look like?
And I'm wondering if youcould be an example of what
it could look like by sharing.
I think, a big example thathas been really significant,
(22:29):
I think in my life is just,my relationship with food and
my relationship with exercise.
And, that has been astruggle since I was a kid.
And, I would, chronic bingeeater and, a chronic dieter.
I got to a point in my lifewhere it was just I'm not only
(22:52):
hurting, I feel like somethingin my spirit was just I'm tired.
I don't want to do this anymore.
And I recognized how itwas also impacting my,
romantic relationships.
And I was like, I want toshift this a little bit.
And I sought out therapy.
It was so funny.
(23:12):
I was in Sedona.
My wife took me on a trip.
I've never beento Sedona before.
It was in Sedona and meand her are sitting on the
couch and we're watching howStella got her groove back.
My wife's crying and I'mover here having this
existential, like existential,like crisis going on.
Like I gotta changemy life, whatever.
(23:35):
And so I reached out to atherapist that specialized
in disordered eating andthings of that nature.
And so during that process,it was a lot of me, learning
about how diet culturehas been impacting me.
And the thing about it isI've heard this before.
I've heard this years agobefore I was ready and
(23:58):
willing to be more open to,what I was ready to receive.
And so I heard it andit was just kind of
like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's good for those folks,but over here, I'm good.
And then fast forward, Irealized, whoa, what I'm
learning, I'm like, shoot, like
that stuff that peoplewere saying, I didn't
realize how much thatwas hurting other people.
(24:21):
I didn't realize how me,commenting on somebody else's
weight was impacting somebody.
Or, oh yeah.
Hey girl.
Oh, you lost weight.
Oh, fierce, fire, period.
And recognizing dang,like I could actually,
I could have been likeendorsing an eating disorder.
I could have been endorsinga medical condition that
(24:42):
they didn't share with mewhy this was happening.
And then I had to take inventoryfor myself and it was just
kind of like, shoot, likethis has also been hurting me.
And then I started to do alittle bit more kind of the
guidance of my therapistand also just me doing my
own kind of like learningis how far deep does this
whole diet culture stuff go?
(25:04):
And then realizing likethis is really connected
to white supremacy.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know that, thesedifferent rules that we have
today that we have marketedthat has gone way before.
It's so many beautifulexamples of that.
And so I'm learning it andI was like, yo, like I,
(25:26):
man, I drink the juice too.
But that's what marketing work,that's how marketing operates.
That's how capitalism operates.
That's how whitesupremacy operates.
And so I was just kind oflike, okay, I'm learning
it, but therapist, how amI supposed to apply this?
Thank
Thanks for the information,
you for the information.
(25:48):
And so I'm like, okay,like the, the unlearning,
aspect of it too.
I really had to sit andthink about some of the rules
and assumptions that I hadand really had to look at
my own like anti fatness.
And had to look at myown bias, which was very
hurtful for myself becauseI'm looking, thinking about
family members and get aboutcommunity, thinking about the
(26:10):
judgments that I've had onother people, other bodies.
Things of how I'm, how I lookat them is how I look at myself.
Starting there,that was, I hurt.
Like big time.
And it was, thatwas really hard.
And, and so what happenedwas with the, unlearning how
to put all of my kind of mybelief systems on inside of
(26:31):
the ring and assumptions anddifferent rules that I had.
In the midst of all of that, Ireally started to get confused.
I think that's alsoin the ring as well.
It's like confusion.
It's huh?
I got attacked by like certainthings and I'm confused.
And an example, I think ofthat confusion of okay, if I'm
going to adopt this new lens...
(26:53):
so does that mean I can'tgo on a diet anymore?
Does that mean Ican't do this anymore?
Really?
What's the rules here?
Like, when am I allowed to do,what am I not allowed to do?
what happens?
And it was so
I'm sorry, this is just, I'mlike, I get everything you're
saying, okay, keep going, sorry.
(27:17):
just met with that,which was so frustrating.
It was so frustrating.
I had to really just sitwith that a little bit.
And I remember, my therapistkind of teaching me some
different tools and thingsof that nature, as well as
what I've also learning.
And recognizing that thisis a part of the process.
I'm not doing anything wrong.
I'm not a bad person forstill to feel this way.
(27:40):
And, I thought about when,when it gets to the process
of relearning certain things,applying certain tools that
I've utilized, that I, havebeen learning, recognizing,
I think, shared before, likeit's a grieving process.
There was a lot of thingsthat I really felt like
was so hard to give up.
(28:01):
Where giving up myscale, for instance.
That was so hard to do.
I'm coming to tears because itwas so hard to give up my scale.
I was on it all the time.
That, that, that scale waslike my sister in a way.
You know what I mean?
It informed me of my worth,informed me of like my value.
(28:26):
And that has been a, Iembodied that so strongly
for so many years.
And even though it washurting me, I was just
kind of like, this is hard.
And throwing thataway was huge for me.
And it took a minute, again,feeling that embodiment, like
even just holding it in my hand.
(28:47):
I took it in and out ofthe trash can, I don't
know how many times.
So many times.
And so recognizing again,that's the process.
okay, I'm gonna give this up.
Okay.
No, no, no.
I'm not ready.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
This is the day.
This is the day.
Okay.
No, right?
And because there's agrieving process that
happens, like I had said.
Or the grieving, the idea ofokay, if I don't go on a diet
(29:10):
anymore, then I'm not going to,and then I don't lose weight.
Then I'm losing, Imight lose community.
I might lose kind of socialinteractions, Or social
engagements in conversations.
I'm going to lose out oncompliments because people
tend to compliment folks onlywhen they're in smaller bodies.
That was a huge, that's, I'mlike, gosh, I'm gonna get that.
(29:31):
I kind of like that, you know?
That's hard.
I am wearing this, ain't I?
Yes.
And and then I think it, it goestoo with that particular battle
of how difficult the process is.
And then I had to get,accept, or I would say
be open to, again, whatI was receiving because
(29:52):
there was so much evidencethroughout the midst of that.
There was so much evidenceof how, this new idea, this
new perspective is working.
I feel so much better.
The thing about it ismy conversations with
my friends are better.
My conversations withmy wife is better.
(30:13):
Just being open tothis new perspective.
Me being able to advocatefor myself and other
bodies, being again, evenas a yoga teacher too.
That might be a whole notherthing too, because in that
space is very thin bodiedand not accessible to all
bodies and, how the mediaperceives, yoga, which stops,
(30:37):
BIPOC folks or other bodiesgetting into that space.
And I think we need itmore now than ever, um,
the sense of wellness.
And the thing about it isbecause all the things I
said, white supremacy anddiet culture, capital,
it's all around me and thatshoot ain't gonna stop.
(30:58):
It is here.
And I have, it's here as faras like not stopping in a
sense of there are some thingsthat it's just, it's ongoing.
So therefore my processof relearning and
unlearning is ongoing.
You know what I mean?
I do have a good hold of it.
Like you had mentioned before,I just stopped wrestling with
(31:20):
certain stuff and kind ofwas able to just settle in.
I can really resonate whatpeople will perceive me
as you got us together,like, Oh, Krystal, you can,
you can have bread now.
Oh, you can eat, have cerealnow and not be afraid of it.
Because of this particularprocess, it seems easy.
But not understandinglike the role behind it.
It's just becauseI settled in it.
I had, I really wentthrough the depths of...
(31:44):
of it all.
And, and still givingmyself some grace and some
openness that this is goingto be an ongoing process.
But damn, like Ifeel so much better.
So much lighter mentally,physically, spiritually.
And I think that people,other people can feel that.
(32:04):
And I love thatversion of myself.
Except for the version I wastrying to chase or hold on to
so tightly back in the day.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
Yeah.
First and foremost, thank
Yeah.
That was, I'm also sitting here.
I've been your friendfor a long time.
I have never heard this story.
So I'm also, I'm hearing itand I'm like, And I don't
(32:27):
even, and I'm not going togo into the whole thing now,
but I get almost everythingthat you were talking about.
As someone who had to facethe fact that I had a binge
eating disorder as well.
Like I, I understand.
There are so many parts andlayers to what you're saying.
And I'm just sittingwith all of that.
(32:47):
First of all, I'm like stillprocessing how layered that was.
I think that example doesa really good job of how
layered our learning is.
You shared the new info andthen you were like, what are
the confusion was very real.
Wait, what?
You said, huh?
I really felt that I washaving my own process.
(33:10):
And then I was thinking aboutour partners, people that we
work with that do their ownstruggle with many topics.
While again, while peoplemight not associate this.
specific topic is somethingthat relates to work.
One, it actually does.
And two, this experiencethat you're describing
happens across many topics.
(33:32):
So I just appreciatedit as the new info.
And then it was like, huh?
And then you describedwhat wrestling really looks
like being in that ring.
And then I really appreciatedthat window into the really
tough moments of the grief.
I think people look at stuffand they're like, Oh, you
learn it and you're supposedto know, like, it's just
(33:52):
the right thing to do.
Go learn and do better.
It's like, hold on.
When you really unpack it.
Okay.
You can't send things ontheir way all the time.
Some stuff.
Okay.
But when you're really doing thework and you really go inside
to figure out where it all camefrom and the meaning of stuff
and the feelings of the meaning.
(34:14):
It's like scale.
You said sister.
When you saidscale is my sister.
I said, Oh, that wasa deep relationship.
You had to let your sister go.
I understood that.
I also understood that I've,the experience you just
described, I've seen with ourclients in many different ways.
I don't think thatthey would name it.
(34:35):
The way that you've named thingswith that grief was so powerful.
And then I just sawyou all up in the ring.
Just some of it was like,okay, is this over yet?
But at some point you'relike in the ring, but you're
not in this defense mode.
Like you just gettingattacked all the time.
Now it's oh shoot, likehere comes the punch.
Oh, got my cheek right there.
(34:56):
But okay, I knowhow to deal with it.
If you need to sit downfor a sec, you can, but
you didn't leave the ring.
You just learnedhow to be in there.
You just, your whole story wasjust a beautiful illustration
of what it can look like.
And I also acknowledgeand see your journey.
And that's one partof your journey.
(35:17):
And there's another partof it too, that I know is
very real in workplaces.
I've done it myself andI've seen other people
do it is the value on,thinness, white bodies.
The ways that weunintentionally, a lot of
times, say things, do things
(35:39):
that could impact people.
And I know for me, tangibly,like growing up with a binge
eating disorder, it was whenI went to therapy and I tell
you, I cleared out the room,but there was a rug and
I had to lift up the rug.
And I was like, this is likethe most significant thing.
But at work, what I wasexperiencing was a lot of
stuff I wasn't aware ofbecause I didn't really
(35:59):
know that part of myself.
Not only was I saying thingsto people, but I would find
myself- people would saythings or do things that
I would get activated notreally understanding why.
People could easily say, sothen I'm just like, mad or
whatever in my own shame spiral.
Or I would avoid lookingat mirrors at work.
I could not.
And every day I'd walk up thestairs and at the top of the
(36:22):
stairs, there's this mirror.
Okay.
And I just, I would walkup and I'll go like this.
I just, that's how bad,that's how significant it was.
I don't want to say bad.
That's how severe it was though.
So when people would make thecomments that we're talking
about, it activates me.
Then I go into myown shame spiral.
I'm impacted.
And then I'm walking aroundin my own anger, treating
(36:43):
certain people a way thathas nothing to do with them.
Nothing.
But I didn't know that.
I'm just walkingaround kind of angry.
And got an attitudeor whatever else.
So then I'm hurt.
Then I go hurt other people.
And it's just a cyclethat can go on and on.
And this is just onecategory of something.
Yeah,
So at work, I, when I learnedabout my own disorder,
(37:09):
and what I was doing andwhat it meant, it helped
me be more aware at work.
It helped me show updifferently, speak
differently, be more awareof people and their stories.
And when I was activated,I then got to decide
how I was gonna respond.
Instead of going intothat default autopilot.
Y'all going to get this angeror y'all not gonna see I'm
(37:31):
gonna disappear the rest ofthe day, whatever it was.
It's just like these...
These moments that you'redescribing or that I'm
describing are so relatedto professional settings
because they are how we showup and interact with people.
Hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
(37:51):
I just thank you so much.
Like that, I was like, I wantto do something with this.
I've already recorded it, butI'm like, dang, this is so good.
I appreciate you.
Yeah, I appreciateyou too, Charmaine.
I'm also thinking people arelistening and they realize,
okay, cool, I get it.
This ring situation is for me.
(38:14):
Are there any cause partof the journey is that
you can have support.
And then there's some stuffthat people can do, might
want to have on their radars.
I'm wondering like whatwe could share with people
so that they can do someparts of the work knowing
that support is part of it.
(38:36):
What are some like tangiblethings people could do?
Read.
I'm not, I'm not evengonna lie to you.
Information is elevation.
And, and getting theright information too.
There's so many differentresources that is
out there and that isavailable and accessible.
I say that for one.
(38:57):
Two,
and this might be hard.
I don't know if thisis tangible, but this
may be difficult.
So, uh,
don't run awayfrom your feelings.
Not running awayfrom your feelings.
The more we run away from them,the more that our bodies and
our brains will detect, Oh, I'msupposed to be afraid of that.
I think there's adifference between I'm
uncomfortable, right?
(39:19):
Versus, what's anotherpart, which basically
describes that I'm in danger.
If I am looking at thisparticular thought, let's
just say thought, orthings of that nature, or
this particular feeling.
Let's just say that our feelingand I'm running away from
it, our brains will detectthat I'm in danger, right?
(39:40):
So that feeling is dangerous.
It's important that maybewe can name certain things
that like- Hey, this isuncomfortable for me, or,
and I like to help clientswith learning their feelings,
this feels very tender.
This feels very hot.
This feels very, I dunno, warmor cold or, tingly, right?
(40:02):
Because if it's feeling veryhot, go drink some water that's
full of ice cubes, right?
If it's tingly, I wantyou to rub on something
that's soft, right?
And so I think this is a matterof us just feeling because
like we've mentioned earlier.
When you're enteringinto the ring, you're
going to hit some blows.
You're going to feel confusion.
You're going to feel, doubtand, maybe even some fear cause
(40:26):
you're faced with the unknown.
If you can go into thering knowing those things
and being open to thosesensations and understand
hey, this is uncomfortable,but I'm not in danger.
I am, I'm justuncomfortable right now.
Sometimes it can be very,help helpful naming it,
(40:47):
I want to say somethingabout that one
particular thing, because
yeah.
it's a really bigpart of what people in
organizations experience.
And it's that,discomfort and safety...
At times feeling like theyare used interchangeably.
(41:08):
Now I want to be clear and say,plenty of workplaces are unsafe.
Plenty of situationsand dynamics are unsafe.
So I'm going to honor that.
And I'm going to lift upthat when people experience
that stuff that you'rejust talking about right
now, like we have theseresponses and they're already
associated with fear, danger.
(41:31):
When we don't slow downand know what that is,
it's just that already.
It's fear, it's dangerous, and Iwant to distance myself from it.
That was like my defaultabout everything all the time.
I'm sure you know this, you'vebeen my friend for a long time.
I wasn't, I don't likeit, it's cut off, goodbye.
That's all I did.
I didn't learn anything.
I still have to be very awarethat this is, I don't like it,
(41:54):
I don't like it, it's unsafe,I have to leave the situation.
However, when we don't knowand we just leave because
our bodies or our mindstell us it's unsafe without
really processing, is thisthe situation that's unsafe?
Or are these feelings associatedwith something that was unsafe?
But when we instantly say it'sunsafe without knowing if...
(42:17):
this is the situation thatwe truly exit moments that...
we avoid an exit moments.
Now I've seen, I've seen somereally unintentional exits.
I've also seen people beingaware that this might not
be one of those things, butI actually don't like it.
So I'm going to justexit the situation.
(42:38):
Yeah.
So when you're saying like,sit with the feelings and know
them, I'm thinking about thevery real life examples and how
many times I have seen peoplenot know they're feeling so much
that they associate the feelingwith the moment and exit it,
and it might not be that thing.
(42:58):
And I know this because inthe unpacking with people,
not only do I help peoplesit in their stuff in a
moment, I also check in afterand unpack those moments.
And I can tell you, it isnot uncommon in the unpacking
afterwards, what peopledescribed as unsafe in the
moment wasn't the moment.
It was what it brought up forthem about something else, and
(43:21):
then they missed the moment.
Yeah.
And I just, I don't want totell people things aren't unsafe
because they be unsafe at work.
But not everything is,and so when we name it, we
leave it, and maybe it'sdiscomfort that we don't like.
When people say, safety versusdiscomfort, I feel like that's
the layer in there that we'renot really talking about.
(43:43):
And if you don't know yourfeelings, then you got
to spend time with them.
Like you just said, andI thank you for that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that, and I've workedwith a lot of individuals that
have a difficult time withcommunicating their feelings.
Let alone feeling them.
(44:05):
Everybody's operating fromthe neck up, and I get
how difficult that is.
But there is an aha momentwhen you do, are open
to seeing what's goingon with the neck down.
It's a huge aha moment.
So that way you can catchin that moment, Hey, I'm
feeling this sensationthat's coming over me.
And before I exit out thatdoor, I'm able to regulate
(44:26):
for a second to really assesswhat is that pit in my stomach
that I'm feeling right now?
That brief, that, that briefmoment can really change, again,
how people move forward withthe unlearning process of,
with the relearning process,or missing out on certain
moments of that brief moment.
If they learn how tofeel their feelings.
(44:47):
It can just go a long way.
Accessing that levelof consciousness is, it
can go such a long way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, that just contributesto the experience in the ring.
As somebody who, I don't thinkI felt any emotion besides numb
or anger till I started therapy.
And I think I was like 30or, it was like, later.
(45:09):
And when I was in therapy,that's when I realized, Oh,
like I didn't, I was so cut off.
I just didn't even know that Ididn't know what emotions were.
I had to learn what they were.
And then I had to feel them.
By the way, that ringsituation, I feel like
(45:29):
that almost took me out.
Like,
took me out.
But that's what Itell people too.
It can be incrediblydifficult just to, get the
new information and wrestlewith the new information.
But when your life experienceis not feeling emotions, I
understand it's difficult.
I do.
I do.
(45:50):
And if you don't deal withit, you cannot, you won't
get to this place of realchange if you can not get
further into your body.
And I think about when I firststarted doing therapy, this is
actually relevant to my currentpractice as a DEI practitioner.
But you know how when you'recollecting hours and you got
(46:11):
to record yourself and...
I hated doing that.
But I watched myself and Iliterally saw how I capped
someone else's growthbecause I was uncomfortable
in emotion spaces.
Now, I thought I was doingpretty good and I think I was
doing okay, but I saw myself.
And I had to see, oh crap,I made that decision to exit
(46:33):
because I was uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Like I was running this wholeshow and they got an experience,
but not a really solid one.
And that prompted me to getmy stuff together even more.
I was like, you will feelthe depths of the emotions.
Cause you're not going tobe the person that gets
in someone else's way.
And it sounded great till Ihad to go back up in that ring.
(47:00):
So now, when you ask me thatquestion very early on, like,
how do you gain the trust?
Girl, because
Yeah.
I had to do the stuff thatI'm asking people to do.
I'm still doing this stuffthat I'm asking people to do.
I do not have ittogether and that's okay.
I'm just trying to teachpeople whatever I can.
(47:22):
With what I have.
That's my boat.
Yeah.
I'm totally on thesame boat with that.
Yeah, you're the feeling,the feelings aspect
of it is, it's hard.
It's one thing to acknowledge,Hey, I got feeling.
There they go.
This is my stomach.
There it goes.
No wonder why I havedigestive issues.
(47:42):
And so the next thing youknow, it's like, okay,
I'm, I'm really feeling it.
And I think that, Ican be very scary.
You know what I mean?
I guess that could be very,very scary to actually
feel because there's areason why we have numbed
that part of us out, Yeah.
Yes.
And so while you're in theprocess of feeling your
feelings, recognize thatpart of you that had to
(48:05):
create that had to put thoseprotectors and those armors up.
And just going at yourown pace to do that.
But once it is opening,you could feel that.
Oh my gosh.
And you're like, there you go,the recovery from those intense
feelings, they don't evenreally last that long sometimes.
(48:25):
Not as long as it was before.
And you're able to communicatethem to coworkers, to your
spouse, even just to yourself,I know the thing, the work
that I do with clients as well,it's like when I do feel those
sensations, can I meet it?
Can I greet it with a pillow?
Can I greet it with compassionand with understanding
(48:47):
and not, harshness ortrying to get rid of it?
You know what I'm saying?
And that also makes ahuge difference with
your relationship, withyour feelings as well.
And in turn relationshipwith your body and all that
good stuff too, because ouremotions are in our body.
So yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
What we're talking about, I'mhoping is a really good window
(49:10):
into what this work looks like.
And what I keep trying todescribe to our partners,
or even what I'm reallywanting to make space for in
this field of DEI is, thisis the process of learning.
Although peoplewill spend so much
money into, I don't know, likecertificates and trainings
(49:35):
and the things to learn theinformation in our minds.
In my personal opinion, therearen't nearly as many DEI
practitioners who are able togo to these depths in themselves
and then for other people toget to the types of experiences
and changes that people arereally needing if they want
(49:56):
change in their organization.
It just takes so much ofyour own self discovery
as a practitioner
Yeah.
to help other people do it.
If people are looking to hireconsultants or experts, these
are the types of things thatyou want to be looking for.
What is the depth ofself to then carry
(50:17):
other people through it?
Because you don't wantto hire somebody and then
you're struggling throughit and they can't hold it.
Or have no concept of reallyhow to be in the feelings.
And that's why we are soexperiential, practice- based
like that's, that's our space.
We'll teach you someinformation, but we are
going to be sitting in thisstuff as much as possible.
(50:37):
Give you a little break,here's some water, and
then we're going to keeppracticing so you can develop
this ability to stay in it.
Because it's not, you don'thave to be in the ring
struggling for forever.
You'll just be in a ring andlearn how to be in there.
Yeah.
So I'm just likewanting to lift that up.
This work isn't for everyone.
(50:59):
And if you want to be a reallygood practitioner, just want
to encourage people to openthe door for themselves too.
And be curious about whatare the limits that your
clients are experiencing?
And your own limitations?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Is there anything else youwant to say before we wrap up?
It was a pleasure being here.
(51:21):
Thank you for holding spacefor me, especially with,
hearing my, what my internalprocess, with the learning,
unlearning, and relearning.
I really appreciate you,and I hope to do this again.
Same.
I hope you do thisagain here with me.
Like we need a regularappearance from K Will.
(51:44):
If people want to get incontact with you, what's
the best way to do that?
You can email me atKrystal with a K.
K R Y S T A L attherapytoempower.
com.
You can also follow me onYouTube at Yoga by Krystal,
where I'll be providing,mental health tips as well
(52:05):
as, asanas, which is physicalpostures, and helping people
learn about yoga, off the mat.
You can also follow me onTikTok where I post funny videos
about my life as a therapist,at Krystal the yoga therapist.
Please follow her.
Especially, I mean, in otherplaces, but like on TikTok and
I think YouTube as well, you'restarting to put stuff there too.
(52:27):
Hilarious.
Your videos bringme so much joy.
I just, I scrollbe like, unmute.
I'm trying to hear all of this.
It's hilarious.
It's hilarious.
So thank you.
If you want to get incontact with me, you can
visit me on our websiteat livingunapologetically.
com.
All of our social mediahandles are on there.
(52:47):
You can email us.
There's freebies on there.
FYI our guidedmeditations are available.
We will keep adding more.
The meditations are specific forprofessional setting situations.
People sitting in their spiralof shame after they heard
feedback and claiming worthinessin the face of discrimination.
(53:08):
And the last one ishow to prepare for
difficult conversations.
We will have more, butthose are available now.
They are free.
There's some otherstuff on there.
You'll have access to buy mybook, Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
Please share thiswith your networks.
Have conversations,share how they go.
Like, comment, subscribe.
(53:30):
So until next time, hopeyou have a good one and
that we connect soon.
Bye!
Bye.
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